Women ‘Improving’ Men

Improving_men

“I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement.”

I had this comment offered in a recent thread. It’s a common gripe from women who believe they’re in some way Red Pill and want to divert their new acceptance of Red Pill truths to serve the same tired ends of the Feminine Imperative. The operative, of course, is always whose definition do we base the measure of ‘improvement’ on? For most women the term ‘improvement’ always aligns with whatever best serves a female sexual strategy – because from a feminine-solipsistic perspective whatever serve women should necessarily serve men.

As with most uneducated women’s concerns I’d already addressed this long ago in The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill:

A lot gets made of the Dark Triad or the Dark Side of Game where a skillful player can sadistically use his newly learned red-pill super powers for evil instead of for the greater good of mankind. Game-aware women – the ones who have been forcibly exhausted of all pretense of maintaing the illusion that Game is a lie – feel as though it’s owed to them, in their concession of Game’s reality, that Men should use Game to women’s benefit. Even to the last effort women still cling to the tools of a feminized acculturation;

“Yeah, OK, you got us, Game is really what women want, Hypergamy is the law of womankind, but now it’s your responsibility that you use it for the better benefit of society by molding a new breed of improved Betas to accommodate fem-centric monogamy. You owe us our security for having admitted to the grand illusion that’s kept you in thrall for so long.”

It’s an indictment of Game-aware women, and sympathizing men, that they should feel a need to delineate some aspects of Game into good camps (pro woman, pro feminized monogamy) and bad camps (manipulative, polygynous, male-centered). Even in the admission of the truth that Game has enlightened Men of, the feminine imperative still seeks to categorize the application of Game to its own end. That Men might have some means of access to their own sexual strategy is too terrible a Threat; Game must be colored good or bad as it concerns the imperatives of women and a fem-centric societal norm.

As the default, socially correct and virtuous concern, women have an easier time of this. As Game becomes increasingly more difficult to deny or misdirect for the feminine, the natural next step in accepting it becomes qualifying its acceptable uses. While hypergamy is an ugly truth, the characterization of it becomes “just how women are” –an unfortunate legacy of their evolution. However for Men, the characterizations of the harsher aspects of Game in its rawest form  (contingencies for hypergamy) are dubbed “the dark arts”.

In her trolling ignorance she fails to understand that she and many “Red Pill Women” before her all want a better Beta. They want a Beta with a side of Alpha – in essence a better slave; one that’s just ignorant enough of female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies their need for amused mastery, masculine dominance (when it’s convenient and affirming), and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needs to be made aware of women’s nature.

The difference in this case is that the ostensibly “Red Pill” woman now looks to the manosphere’s best and brightest to provide them with such men via some distortion of Red Pill social proof. Not only that, but, in their entitled hubris, they are all too willing to pander to exactly the male idealistic nature I described in the last post. Their appeal is to Red Pill aware men’s sense of duty, honor or integrity in mentoring other Blue Pill Beta men (the ones they hope to improve) in an acceptable Purple Pill fashion – just enough ‘self-improvement’ to serve women’s sexual strategies, but just enough watered down ignorance of women’s feral nature to serve as what they believe would be their ‘right guy’.

You’re just not a “Man” if you don’t promote a feminine reviewed and approved version of the Red Pill to other men.

Many of the wives and women that participate in formerly Red Pill married forums follow this invasion into that previously male space and then turn it to similar ends.

The worst part of this bastardization of course is that they only need to encourage the parts of Red Pill awareness that serves their ends. They feel entitled to Red Pill men educating the plugged-in in how to become the ‘improved’ men they believe they deserve. Thus it’s an easy bandwagon to get aboard so long as their redefinition of what actually is Red Pill jives with what they feel is their due in men.

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

The ideal situation for Red Pill women here is to have a group of respected Red Pill men educate the next generation of plugged-in men to provide the attractive aspects of this awareness while stifling the uncomfortable threatening aspects that might require women to actually prove their own worthiness of those men.

Sexy Psychopaths

My good friend Dagonet had a bit of a misguided hope in this tweet today:

https://twitter.com/TheQuestForever/status/686981982014668800

Once again, male idealism gets the better of one of our own. I wish it were in fact the case that women’s innate, evolved Hypergamy could be overridden so they would find men’s higher-order virtues and ideals to be arousing and attractive. This, however, is not the reality we are dealing with.

Reader Gregg brought up an interesting, and as you’ll read timely, comment about why Dag is in error:

Men think that women want “confident, strong” men. Why do we think that way? Because women told us so, or we have read it in some “wise” 500 pages psychology book. Our old provider needs to believe this, so that he has some “noble” manly goal he can pursue. Of course it is very beneficial for women to have STRONG, CONFIDENT slave that protect her. Put aside our male ego, our goals and aspirationas when we want to understand women. They know that our male ego will side with them, will help them in their game. Unhampered by ego, woman can easily enslave man like that.

Male ego tells us – we have to be strong and confident..cos it is “manly”, it’s “respectable” and women SHOULD respect that! So it is a given that they respect that! While in reality…nothing is further from the truth. She wants strong and confident men as her protecting slaves but she tingles and craves for emotionally unstable man. Like attracts the like. Is Tyler Durden a strong, confident man? He is unstable, knows weak spot of women, he can live in a moment, is more unpredictable than woman. He is emotionally intelligent, more so than typical women. He behaves more like a woman than like a man. Therefore he HAS POWER over them! Is Mystery a strong, confident man? Anyone who’s read “the Game” knows how he was driven mad by one, single chick.

What are the traits of men, women are madly enslaved to? Is it confidence, is it strenght? NOPE. It is unpredictability, unstability, emotional COLDNESS, psychopathy! In this case he is more unstable than her, so SHE is trying to fix the relationship, she is trying to give them some rules, some stability, some “security”. She must do all the work, otherwise there is nothing. She fills the void. He who cares less…..

We still do not want to confess hard, dark truth about women and about ourselves. We still talk about this burden of performance, confidence, strenght, emh..POSITIVE masculinity. We still discuss with women, try to persuade them with logic, try to impress them with our “performance”, knowledge, experience. So can our man with innate need to perform rule/care less about, the realtionship? How? He is enslaved by his very need to perform which performance will be judged by women!

Ultimate lotharios are neither strong, nor confident. They behave more like women than like men. They do not feel the need to perform, to protect, to build, to be confident, to answer, to be responsible. Take Charlie Sheen as an example. This man is emotionally damaged, unstable, irresponsible, weak. Majority of women are much more stable than him. Yet he has fucked more then 5000 of them. You think it is due to his fame? I am sure each of us know weak men, psychopatic men with no fame, yet with harems of women.

It is still the same…discussion of slaves how to be worthy of women. Maybe mentality, maybe genetics, do not know which one more. And new generations of lambs arises…primed for slaughter as the last. We are loosing my friends, big time.

There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’ll drop a two of the responding comments before I do. YaReally provides some counterbalance here:

YaReally:

And here we come to two different results because Gregg isn’t entirely inaccurate that a lot of fucked up damaged dudes are catnip for girls (and not just damaged fucked up girls, hi madonna/whore complex). Whenever we get two different results we have to drill deeper to find the commonality.

It comes down to the guy having an emotional impact on the girl. It doesn’t matter whether you make her feel good or bad emotions (ideally you make her feel both at various times), all that matters is that you have emotional impact on her. The damaged basketcase hot & cold guy who treats her like a princess one minute then tells her to fuck off because his life is falling apart the next is giving her a full range of emotions. So is the super confident guy with his shit together who’s running push/pull on her.

The biggest thing no one will talk about because it sets guys on a bad path is how fucked up and falling apart your life can really BE and you can still attract and keep hot poon around. Ideally we want men to go the TRP route where they build their careers and hit the gym and don’t booze it up etc. But the reality is you can be a fucking MESS and still get hot girls, as long as you have emotional impact on them. It’s why chicks will whore themselves out for ugly pimps and go back to abusive relationships, and on the flip side it’s why they’ll leave dependable boring guys who give them an emotional flatline day to day.

Personally I think that in the old days a chick had a baby at an early enough age to fulfill her need for crazy emotional impact drama to keep her happy and not craving it, but these days since they don’t want kids till they’re 30+ they fill that voice with the cock carousel, cats, Eat Pray Love adventures, hundreds of hours of Netflix (shows/movies full of emotional ups and downs), fucking guys like me, etc.

And finally I’m going to paraphrase SJF’s comment here for another perspective:

What makes you think “lothario” is the kind of man some of us want to be? (although I’m not sure if you are advocating being one or not.) A lothario is an unscrupulous seducer of woman. Unscrupulous means having or showing no moral principles; not honest or fair.

Just because a man has an innate desire (not need) to perform, doesn’t mean he is enslaved. The Rational Male certainly confesses/explicates/describes truths about women and ourselves. Some of us aren’t shackled by knowledge of the burden of performance and having confidence, strength and positive masculinity. Some of us have found that not to be a burden. To be a low hurdle to real power. With low downside and potentially huge upside.

As an aside here I would also point out that Gregg’s focus on men’s Burden of Performance is entirely on serving women’s interests rather than a natural order of male idealism. This is a common mindset among Blue Pill, plugged-in men, they can’t imagine an existence where their finding of an idealistically male purpose or passion in life is set in a context that doesn’t relate to how women perceive it. It’s a logical trap that most MGTOWs find themselves in – they want a world where their performance burden is removed with regard to women, but still refuse to accept that this burden exists independent from women’s perceptions.

In other words they can’t exit the Game, the fundamental rules persist; whether they choose to play or not the Game proceeds in spite of their involvement.

That being what it is, I’ve set these two concepts together here for a reason. First we have a set of Red Pill women seemingly desirous of Red Pill aware men that serve their imperatives within their acceptable frame of what “Red Pill” ought to be for them. Second we have a parallel between Gregg’s take and YaReally’s take on what women are honestly seeking in an ‘improved’ man – a more perfected slave; one who can embody the worst contradiction to positive masculinity (from Gregg’s perspective), and one who despite his performance burden is really only required to provide emotional polarity to generate tingles and genuine desire.

Toxic Masculinity

Liz’s comment from the last thread (emphasis mine):

Masculinity is not bad, it is good.

The poster responded that toxic masculinity refers to behaviors that cause distress (telling a son not to cry and so forth). I didn’t go further into the argument with her, we didn’t see eye to eye enough to really engage anyway […]

Juxtapose this with the feminine way of going things. He is told everyone has his or her own unique specialness and he just needs some encouragement.

Sometimes I think our idea of “bad” and “good” are skewed, and that’s just feminist poisoning.

Toxic masculinity is yet another narrative buzz word the Feminine Imperative has made endemic in the same way it repeats the “rape culture’ meme. By adding the term ‘culture’ to any article you find offensive you make that article an endemic phenomenon – Rape ‘culture’, Bro ‘culture’, a ‘Culture’ of Corruption, etc.

‘Toxic’ Masculinity is another such exercise. It presumes a universally agreed upon definition of what exactly is toxic – very similar again to the good and bad uses of Game in the Dark Art / Dark Triad associations I made at the beginning of this article. And in Liz’s exchange that definition is whatever male-specific behaviors women find “distressing”.

However as we see in Gregg’s example of ideal masculinity, those distressing attributes are in fact the most arousing attributes of men. I’ve used this example before, but the most pussy I’ve ever enjoyed, the most freely given and most genuinely sought after of myself by women was when I was virtually penniless. I didn’t need to signal parental investment and provisioning cues to get women’s sexual interest, I just need to fit the bill for what YaReally defines as the “fun guy” – or as Sheryl Sandberg agrees, “the bad boy, the crazy boy, the cool boy, and the commitment-phobic boy in order to prompt a woman’s genuinely inspired sexual best.

Women & Altruism:

Altruism plays a role in mate choice, particularly in women’s preferences and in long-term (LT) relationships. The current study analyzed how these preferences interacted with another important mate choice variable, physical attractiveness. Here, female participants were presented with photographs of men of varying levels of physical attractiveness, alongside descriptions of them behaving either altruistically or not in different scenarios. The results showed women preferred altruistic men, particularly in LT relationships and that this interacted with physical attractiveness such that being both attractive and altruistic made a man more desirable than just the sum of the two desirable parts. Also, being altruistic made low attractive men more desirable but only for LT relationships. Finally, men who were just altruistic were rated more desirable than men who were just attractive, especially for LT relationships. Overall, these findings are discussed in terms of the role of altruism in mate choice, particularly in LT relationships and directions of future research.

There’s subsection of Red Pill thought (Athol Kay in particular) that believes that Beta attributes align with the effects oxytocin has on men and women. I’m adding this here to provide a balance to that misguided idea:

It has been suggested that the degree of compassion—the feeling of warmth, understanding and kindness that motivates the desire to help others, is modulated by observers’ views regarding the target’s vulnerability and suffering. This study tested the hypothesis that as compassion developed to protect vulnerable kinships, hormones such as oxytocin, which have been suggested as playing a key role in ‘tend-and-befriend’ behaviors among women, will enhance compassion toward women but not toward men. Thirty subjects participated in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, within-subject study. Following administration of oxytocin/placebo, participants listened to recordings of different female/male protagonists describing distressful emotional conflicts and were then asked to provide compassionate advice to the protagonist. The participants’ responses were coded according to various components of compassion by two clinical psychologists who were blind to the treatment. The results showed that in women and men participants oxytocin enhanced compassion toward women, but did not affect compassion toward men. These findings indicate that the oxytocinergic system differentially mediates compassion toward women and toward men, emphasizing an evolutionary perspective that views compassion as a caregiving behavior designed to help vulnerable individuals.

Those example might seem a bit abstract, but I’m putting them up here to make the point that women’s sexual selection filtering is a two-fold prospect rooted in the dual nature of women’s Hypergamy. What best serves Alpha Fucks is contradicted by Beta Bucks.

Thus we have notions like the attributes that make up “Toxic Masculinity” being arbitrarily whatever aspects of the male nature women find themselves most lacking in men. And by way of that we get a definition that fluctuates according to the Feminine Imperative’s needs. Because of this women, Red Pill or otherwise will never be honest arbiter of ‘improving’ men’s states of masculinity.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Divided Line
4 years ago

On a related note, I caught Esmay recently arguing that humans haven’t been tournament maters for 20,000 years. Unless I’m misunderstanding him, his position regarding sexual biology is that humans are strictly pair bonders. That’s beyond delusional.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@Aksiom: ” . . . it seems detrimental to me to focus so exclusively on women and getting our individuation needs met through their sexual attention versus our other individuation needs.” KFG’s Maxim Number Something or Other: Just because you don’t have a woman doesn’t imply that you are alone. @The Question: “. . . it’s still disturbing to have Rollo say he was blocked and banned for criticizing it.” He isn’t the only one. And I was a regular (and I believe valued by the community) commenter from the early days of RoK. And unlike Rollo I didn’t even… Read more »

Matt
Matt
4 years ago

Do men have a biological need to become slaves to women? It appears that other male animals accepts their disposability. It appears there is a longing for many men to return back to the beta bucks desirability phase of 60 odd years ago. At least now we know what inspires true sexual interest from a women – the good-looking, dominant chad. Vilar said a lot of correct things, but seemed to ignore female sexual nature and what really turns a woman on. What she describes below is the condition of the unattractive beta who must become an economic slave to… Read more »

Divided Line
4 years ago

@Acksiom

“What I’ve noticed is how parts of the manosphere tend to overemphasize female valuation of males relative to general community valuation of males. The regard and respect of other males is important too, and it seems detrimental to me to focus so exclusively on women and getting our individuation needs met through their sexual attention versus our other individuation needs.”

AVfM has to appeal to men whose idealism is still yoked to the FI.

nastynate
nastynate
4 years ago

@Divided Line “On a related note, I caught Esmay recently arguing that humans haven’t been tournament maters for 20,000 years. Unless I’m misunderstanding him, his position regarding sexual biology is that humans are strictly pair bonders. That’s beyond delusional.” Most ancient societies the world over (hunter gatherer) had a majority of the population living in lifelong monogamous relationships. The interesting thing is that many of the same hunter gatherer societies also practiced polygamy at the same time. The majority of the people lived monogamous lives, while a much smaller group of men might have 2 or more wives, usually a… Read more »

Water Cannon Boy
Water Cannon Boy
4 years ago

Had some mindblowing sex a couple days after a big falling out, in which I yelled really loudly and swore a lot (going back and forth with her), threw a chair across the room and punched a hole in a door. .. It was fucking horrible. Huge upheaval, huge argument, and I thought everything was over at that point. It was a wreck. But here we are. She actually said she feels closer to me after going through that together. Go figure So you gave her the drama roller coaster she craved and she says she feels closer to you,… Read more »

Divided Line
4 years ago

@nastynate According to Robert Sapolsky, we’re in between tournament and pair bonding. If that’s true, virtually everything is explained. To pretend we simply pair bond and that there is no biological basis for tournament mating behaviors, as Esmay does, probably isn’t a winning strategy for men.

goosfraba
goosfraba
4 years ago

I disagree with your remarks about MGTOW. Might be that I didn’t quite understand it though – English isn’t my native language. Truly the ONLY slave master for MGTOW is money or rather a lack thereof. This is why most MGTOW will advise younger MGTOW to strive for financial independence as soon as possible and to secure a stream of passive income. That way even if we cannot completely escape the gynocentric society’s grasp (taxes), at least we can mostly decide for ourselves what kind of endeavours are worthwile or not. Self-improvement is just as big a part of MGTOW… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
4 years ago

@goosfraba Truly the ONLY slave master for MGTOW is money or rather a lack thereof. To pretend that you’re not a slave to your brain’s own biology as we all are is to ignore a fact of reality that will bite you in the ass eventually. This is also where my disagreement with a big chunk of MGTOW philosophy comes from. To set yourself as a mental point of origin makes sense, which Rollo has acknowledged and I fully agree with. Enlightened self-interest is important to success, regardless of your mission in life. However, to claim that suddenly you’re no… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

Are we confused? Are we fooled? Let’s consider what is really at stake here. This has nothing to do with “improvement”. “Improvement” is merely a smoke screen diversion scam to keep the real intent hidden and covert while simultaneously providing justification of the real intent least it be suspected or discovered. The real intent is to control and dominate. That’s it. It is that simple. There is no use indulging in all this introspective pseudo intellectual contorted mental masturbation to see and admit the truth. In fact all that silly pontification only reflects weakness and an unwillingness or inability to… Read more »

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

“Isn’t it amazing how the reality of this can be effectively expressed in so many fewer words?”

Yes, and No.

You see what I did there?

Isn’t it amazing how the reality of this cannot be effectively expressed in so many fewer words?

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

But on that subject NBTM, don’t you advocate for MGTOW? I can’t remember or usually don’t pay attention to your comments. Sorry. Are you at an Acceptance phase in your life that if it all boils down to dominance and control that you are fine with that? Or are you pissed that that is the way things operate? Or do you relish the power and control you have in this life? I suppose MGTOW’s would disdain that and say that it is OK to not have power and control over women in their sexual strategy. Because there are other things… Read more »

Roused
Roused
4 years ago

@Acksiom January 15th, 2016 at 10:44 pm “@ Andy – “Why the sub-spheres will never get along? Well they never will because they’ll always think the others are wrong.” OK, so why will they always think the others are wrong?” Maybe it’s worth considering that what it boils down to is practical experience. Are you a victim of womenz and the FI or do you have a mission that accepts the reality of our biology? Is it laziness? An unwillingness to lose the spare tire around your waist? Fear of learning Game? Fear of rejection? Complete lack of having a… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

Don’t have much time but I simply cannot let this go without comment. The very claim that gynocentrism gives rise to capitalism is so silly, I barely know where to start. Let’s put it this way: We live in a complex system of social order. Many factors give rise to behavior and institutions in social order – biological, environmental etc. Of course, gynocentrism is a force but to claim it is THE force giving rise to “capitalism” is to announce you actually don’t understand shit about how social order emerges in humans and other creatures. I do think it’s an… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
4 years ago

@Rollo- “Game-aware women – the ones who have been forcibly exhausted of all pretense of maintaing the illusion that Game is a lie – feel as though it’s owed to them, in their concession of Game’s reality, that Men should use Game to women’s benefit.” I agree. This is true and well expressed. However, we loose touch with reality when we over complicate. Consider carefully this portion of the thought statement, “…maintaining the illusion that Game is a lie -” Game exists and is not “a lie”. So, why would someone maintain an illusion that it is a lie or… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

@Jeremy “al·tru·ism noun: altruism —> The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. Could not be any more clear. Altruism is concern for others specifically to the detriment of concern for the self. The only species on earth that behave this way are hive species; ants, termites, bees. No mammalian species actually behaves in this fashion. Cooperation is not altruism. Voluntarism is not altruism. Both of those concepts lack the crucial element of a total disinterest in self-preservation. I re-submit that Altruism (proper) is actually contrary to normal animal evolution, as there are… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

Jeremy again – anyways that was semantics and didn’t really address your point. I mostly just think that the human intellect is a very novel adaptation that has broad implications for our developmental path. Evolution is blind. Altruism is clearly adaptive in this case. We don’t go on about how no other mammalian species developed a blue ass like a mandrill and so that’s contrary to normal animal evolution…. http://www.calgaryzoo.com/sites/default/files/animal/facts/mandrill_fact_1.jpg Anyways, that’s all totally abstract. If you’re saying we should probably evaluate our impulse to be altruistic so we can choose our own values and incentives, I agree. Loading...

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

@ScribblerG

…..last night was total bust but I had fun.

Stop being oxymoronic. You guys on the cusp of depression need fun in winter and now is your time to have it.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

@Acksiom “It’s just that simple. What I still can’t figure out is why none of you are even willing to even just acknowledge the existence of the model. It’s as though the idea of genuine male liberation terrifies you so much that the prospect of achieving it goes straight into the same kind of blind spot women have for male victimization in general.” Lol chill dude, I don’t know who hurt you before but you’re safe now. Shh. Shh. All better. They can’t hurt you now. See? I haven’t seen you propose ‘the model’ before here, sorry if you have… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

@SJF Hah, crazy story about the WHO concert. Yeah, my SO cherishing a memory like that would have burned a hole in my heart a few years back. Probably why none of them ever let me know if they had stories like that, who said women have no mercy? 😉 Like women wanting to have (or having) awesome sex with rockstars is something shameful about them. Lol. How could they. Not feeling the urge to marry every girl I bang has made me much less judgmental. Probably not a great plan to marry a girl who was banging college athletes… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

@kfg

love the maxims. I should probably start keeping track of them…

@Rollo

didn’t you say once that there were 12 Iron Rules? Where’s the last 3?

Is This Thing On?
Is This Thing On?
4 years ago

You’re welcome.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

@Forge the Sky

Thinking back now, that had to be when they were teenagers.

And you’re correct in the post red-pill mindset. The trick is to bang the living alpha widowed-ness out of them when you get with them. I wish someone would’ve sent me that memo 20 years ago. The best time to have gotten that memo is 20 years ago. The next best time is now.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

@Is This Thing On?

How come Simon Cowell didn’t ask her how “how much do you weigh” before he gave her the thumbs up?

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

Lazy Saturday so far, so here goes. @Divided Line @Random Lurker – love ya man! I can’t shake this impression of you: -Really intelligent -Better at expressing ideas than emotions -Spend a lot of time in your thoughts -Tend to not experience new things terribly often -Have specific narratives/interpretations of the things you experience on a day-to-day basis which tend to create dissatisfaction with them -Tiny dick Lol, kidding about that last one, the last comment thread got weird. Anyways, here’s the thing. People only talk like you do when they aren’t experiencing life as they want to be. There… Read more »

Divided Line
4 years ago

@Scribblerg

“I do think it’s an interesting line of inquiry though, but my sense is that this line of reasoning is pushed by people who are critics of capitalism already and grab on to this to wrap their biases around the Red Pill – very common in the manosphere.”

Who else is arguing it? I’d be interested to read whatever they’re posting.

Everything we do is rooted in gynocentrism. There’s really no other reason to produce economic surplus other than providing for women and children.

Divided Line
4 years ago

@Forge the Sky I’m not a total incel or anything, I’ve had relationships in the past. My last girlfriend was actually pretty hot, imho. I just had some setbacks and I’m not in a place right now where I can chat women up. I’m not afraid of anything, really. Work was a dead end, school was a dead end. I’m 36 now and I’ve pretty much given up on my ambition to have a family. The fear of failure is gone since I basically failed already. So whatever. In some ways it’s kind of a relief, but now I’m uncertain… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

@Divided Line “’m not a total incel or anything, I’ve had relationships in the past.” Never implied otherwise. “I’m not afraid of anything, really. Work was a dead end, school was a dead end. I’m 36 now and I’ve pretty much given up on my ambition to have a family. The fear of failure is gone since I basically failed already. So whatever.” You ever wonder why it was all ‘dead ends?’ What ‘end’ were you expecting? See, another way to look at what I’m trying to express here is that this is what there is and it’s pretty fucking… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“There’s really no other reason to produce economic surplus other than providing for women and children.” One is none. Two is one. A certain amount of surplus is security, even for a man living alone in the woods. A man living alone in the woods will find, through sheer randomness, that he does not have access to everything he could make good use of, but has more of something than he can use. He can find another man and take what he needs from him, but that carries a significant risk of injury, perhaps fatal, or, he can arrange a… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@Divided Line: “In some ways it’s kind of a relief, but now I’m uncertain of what direction to go in without that compass.” I wrote on the first page of this thread: “The problem for some, however, is that they are lions who were captured as cubs and have spent most of their lives in a cage, and now someone has carelessly left the door open – and they don’t know what to do.” I actually have a relative who spent a year in one of Franco’s prisons. One day he woke up and found his belongings neatly piled on… Read more »

The Lone Planet
The Lone Planet
4 years ago

The glass is half empty.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
4 years ago

“The glass is half empty”

of water. The rest is air.

You need to drink, and to breath, so stop bitching.

The Lone Planet
The Lone Planet
4 years ago

fear + despair + self-worth ÷ mockery ÷ condemnation ÷ misunderstanding × guilt × shame × failure × judgment n=y where y=hope and n=folly, love=lies, life=death, self=darkseid

Understand?

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
4 years ago

@The Lone Planet I ain’t the most optimistic motherfucker on the planet, but stop being a whiny bitch. Shit’s tough. Big whoop. What are you going to do about it? If you just want to whine about how tough it is, you don’t need us or this place. Porn, booze, and video games await you. I should know; they’re always there waiting right behind me for me to wallow in self-pity, and some days I just need a day off from trying to improve. But shit, even my complaints on here come from things about me I’m doing stuff about… Read more »

The Lone Planet
The Lone Planet
4 years ago

Now that’s how you get a reaction out of somebody.

Getting mad over something that was taken from a comic book.

The Anti-life Equation, google it.

I thought we weren’t supposed to take life so seriously.

The Lone Planet
The Lone Planet
4 years ago

Whiny bitch? No.
Madman? Yes!

stuffinbox
4 years ago

Every squirrel in the woods is out hunting and gathering a surplus of nuts every day they can,with the exception of a few silly squirrels that generally starve to death in the winter.This isn’t capitalism or gynocentrism,only biology.Pay attention don’t be a silly squirrel,this shit is serious. Seems like most hippies,psuedo intelecuals,professional students etc, may have not ever felt the burden of performance really and are actually reaping the rewards of modern society. While this frees them up from performance it also isolates them from the gift of desperation that has always been a critical element of our survival.As nature… Read more »

Roused
Roused
4 years ago

Another example of women wanting to be “invited” ( and improve ) a men’s only club. Note while the author protests that women should be allowed she also can’t help herself complaining (even if in jest) about men farting. http://www.vice.com/read/mens-clubs-are-dated-and-embarrassing-130 Wouldn’t surprise me if a blue pill male wrote the headline. Like a guy apologizing that other men do this unacceptable stuff like hangout with just men. “I must admit that this picture is not an appealing one to me, no matter how many trips to the Arctic each of them have made. But just because I am turned off… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

“You got to pick up every stitch this is the season of the witch.”

I’ve been feeding squirrels rolls and muffins that I, as they say, “came into.”

I’m a celiac. I can’t eat rolls and muffins, but I can eat squirrels.

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“” . . . more militant MGTOWs . . . ” Many of whom are obviously infused with contemporary egalitarianism ideals as well. The basic idea seems to be that if men abandon women, women will be forced to evolve into men. And they say that as if it’s a good thing.” That’s not MGTOW at all. You’re describing MGTOW as someone from wehuntedthemammoth.com, lipstickalley.com, cuckservative.com or huffingtonpost.com might describe them – with shaming language. I, as a MGHOW, live a life free from women’s power to destroy my life through false accusations, forced wealth transfer, vagimony and vag support.… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

” You’re describing MGTOW as someone from wehuntedthemammoth.com, lipstickalley.com, cuckservative.com or huffingtonpost.com might describe them – with shaming language.” I am not describing MGTOW at all. You are acting like a feminist who, hearing someone express discomfort with the views of Andrea Dworkin starts screeching, “NOT ALL FEMINISTS ARE LIKE THAT!” “I, as a MGHOW . . .” And I, have self described myself as a MGHOW on this very site, knowing that it isn’t the friendliest to MGTOW philosophy. I have at times defended that philosophy. Unlike feminism, the philosophy does not require me to defend every MGHOW no… Read more »

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

Every year, in the US alone, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of men are destroyed through marriage and divorce. Every year, in the US alone, tens upon tens of thousands of men, rather than live the lives of poverty and despair their X wives and white knight @$$ kissers left them, commit suicide. What does that add up to? Since 1970, countless tens upon tens of millions of men have been destroyed through marriage and divorce and untold hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of men have taken their own lives as a result. MGTOW reject societies bull shit, anti-male, woman-friendly… Read more »

redlight
redlight
4 years ago

is this a result of new math teaching:

hundreds upon hundreds of thousands, tens upon tens of thousands, tens upon tens of millions, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands

The suicide rate is 4 to 8 times higher, but what are the actual numbers in old math terms?

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

New Math:

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“is this a result of new math teaching: hundreds upon hundreds of thousands, tens upon tens of thousands, tens upon tens of millions, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands The suicide rate is 4 to 8 times higher, but what are the actual numbers in old math terms?” There are well over 1,000,000 divorces in the US alone, every single year. When divorce rates are highest, this typifies that men have lost income redistribution to their wives in marriage. Divorce rates between 2007 and beyond skyrocketed after men lost wealth and wages. Women divorced men en-masse after the 2007 wall street,… Read more »

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

When a woman can’t afford to take care of her kids, welfare taxes are raised to provide low cost housing, education and food subsidies for women and their kids. When men can’t afford to take care of their kids, more prison cells are built and the term “deadbeat dad” is emblazoned upon our social consciousness. Men are thrown in prison and more men commit suicide. Why can’t they be “deadbeat moms” instead of “deadbeat dads” when women fail to financially support their children? Isn’t that equality? This isn’t a MGTOW rant. This is an MRA rant. MGTOW think women with… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@Some call you . . . Tim: “You get MGTOW now, kfg?”

I get that you are trying to teach your grandfather to suck eggs, and are perilously close to crossing the line into spamming that information.

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“Here’s a question, if marriage and child support and all the atrocities women perpetrate on men were removed, would you interact with women? How has all of this affected your relations with your Mom or sister or women you have no intimate interest in?” Now that’s the question, Rollo. Good one. My mother was a whore. She dumped my father to screw my step father because he had a larger dick and a much larger wallet than my real father. They ended up destroying one another – which in my mind is poetic justice. I did nothing to ease the… Read more »

redlight
redlight
4 years ago

@tim

in this state you are in, are you sexually attracted to women?

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“@tim

in this state you are in, are you sexually attracted to women?”

I have zero sexual attraction to real-life women – so I don’t date or seek attention from women in any way. Porn is OK. I give women zero power or presence in my life. Nevertheless, I still love tits, poody and ass. You can take the marriage out of the man, but you can’t take his sexual lust for poody. That’s the law. That’s just how it works.

dwellerman
4 years ago

Tim ~ “That which I hate most is a captain-save-a-ho, a gynocentrist and/or a white-knight. Each represent the embodiment of their own hypocrisy and serve only to further the destructive power of the gynocracy.”

I am down with that and couldn’t agree more.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

“I thought we weren’t supposed to take life so seriously.”

For the record I take life and red-pill awareness and game seriously. As if my life depended on it. But then again, I’m not as dumb as who-ever I’m quoting.

And guess what that got me over the last couple years?

Real Power.

But enough about me, lets talk about you. Enough about you, let’s talk about life for awhile.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago
Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“I get that you are trying to teach your grandfather to suck eggs, and are perilously close to crossing the line into spamming that information.”

Ok – You’re going to have to run that by me one more time. “Spamming” and “suck eggs” aren’t cohesive statements.

Come at me again, dip wad.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

Don’t get all existentially on me and start posting supposedly meaningful videos like Rugby11 on me KFG. I’m just riffing on some bad Alanis Morisette lyrics. And dry-wittedly mocking my own self-centered posting style as in “enough about me”.

But enough about me. Don’t you notice I’m different in my posting? Better? As I strain my rotator cuff patting myself on the back.

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

MGTOW, MGTOW, MGTOW, motherfucking MGTOW. A few points; – You are not sharing anything new. Guys who are in alignment with Rollo’s POV and see the Red Pill as Praxeology versus philosophy or ideology, have heard it all before and have rejected it. You’ve been weighed, measured and counted, and were found wanting by those of us who are serious about positive masculinity, self improvement and shouldering the burden of performance happily. Why can’t you guys get that? We don’t want what you are selling and don’t misunderstand you, nor are we confused. Stop trying to sort us out –… Read more »

The Lone Planet
The Lone Planet
4 years ago

@SJF

That would be me your quoting my fine feathered friend.

After all, it is wabbit season y’know.

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“@Tim – Well, now we know why you are so angry. I suggest you try to come to some kind of peace with your mother. Such a catharsis likely holds the key to you really moving out of the feckless rage which is devouring your soul.” Fuck you asshole. Your worthless soul will rot in hell with her – you’re like kind. You’re no different than my step father – who’s sons are both criminals and derelicts. I’ll die lording over and torturing my stepfathers sons and daughters while they’re in prison and live a life loving the destruction of… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

@Tim – Let’s do a thought experiment. Take a pile of disembodied tits, asses and “poody” (what an juvenile way to refer to pussy, I find it quite suggestive) – do you find them attractive? If I cut a bunch of tits off women and gave them to you, would you find them sexually arousing? Of course not. You find women attractive and arousing. Just like the rest of us. You just have no idea how to deal with them or how to get what you want out of them. You also don’t understand them, and are in fact evaluating… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

One can only conclude that Tim indeed does have some serious Mommy issues. Cursing at me and raging as you do will not change that, Tim. But if it helps you to go on so, please do, just know it has just about nothing to do with me.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/5fe2384a60364739b9ca98ffb6452578/gazelles-drinking-at-salvadora-waterhole-with-lions-in-the-background-bd36rx.jpg

Why are these gazelles calmly drinking in full view of the the lions, their primary predator?

Because they understand lions and know they have no immediate cause for fear.

Roused
Roused
4 years ago

I got fucked in divorce court. I have to pay alimony and child support. The ex does not deserve alimony but she got it. The ex, her mother and the court did a number on me with parental alienation. While every month I am financially “raped” by my ex the alienation was the absolute worst. A few months ago I found a new lawyer by doing what I should have done before I filed for divorce. Reach and preparation. This guy was involved in cases that resulted in having state divorce laws rewritten. He reviewed my case no charge and… Read more »

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“@Tim – Let’s do a thought experiment. Take a pile of disembodied tits, asses and “poody” (what an juvenile way to refer to pussy, I find it quite suggestive) – do you find them attractive? If I cut a bunch of tits off women and gave them to you, would you find them sexually arousing? +++++++++++++++++++++++ @scribblerg – You’re a freak, phuck wad. You’re the reason men are falling. You’re the life cancer to all men. What the hell are you talking about with disembodied juvenile tits and ass low life douche bag? You’re the one that needs help. I… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

@Roused – Holy shit, brother, what a story/comment. I’m so moved and inspired. So happy for you, and I’m glad you are getting through to your kids. I’ve been trying new stuff with my daughter to no avail, but the difference is that now I’m not sad or angry or unresolved about it. Nothing will push me off being her father, ever. I own who I am now in a profound way that was not possible for me before TRM.

Keep on keeping on, ‘mano.

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

@Tim – You are the one who reduced women to “tits, asses and poody” – not me. You are the one spewing insane hate fantasies of torturing family members and other rageful ideas. Not me.

And now you respond by playing semantic games. We are here to help you, Tim – not the reverse. Insulting me for seeing your obvious issues may feel good, but it has zero effect on me. You are the one stewing in what comes off as possibly psychopathic rage, Tim. Really. Get that.

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

Once upon a time – a prince proposed to a princess. The princess refused. The prince lived happily ever after. The end.

If you weren’t as fortunate and/or as blessed as the prince above – you’re fucked. Get over it and move on.

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@Tim: “Get over it and move on.”

Ooooooh, the irony.

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

“@Tim: “Get over it and move on.” Ooooooh, the irony.” I’ve moved on. I’m the smart one here. I’m wildly more successful than anyone in my family. I’ll retire with enormous prosperity while my siblings and grand siblings rot in debauchery – a fate of their own ill choosing. I’ll retire on 10K per month in savings alone. That doesn’t even include SS, another 3K per month. They’ll suck at least 10k from the taxpayers combined per month on their prison sentences and bad decisions, tied together with their felonies against the people. What the hell is wrong with you… Read more »

averagechump
averagechump
4 years ago

@dwellerman

That sounds like an apt description of our neighborhood badass SJF!!

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

@Tim – You speak to us as though we are losers, sitting around jacking off to porn and playing video games – we’re not MGTOWs. Men here are successful and see through many aspects of our fucked up society. But we aren’t angry in the way that you are. Many men here are not married and do not provision for women at all. Yet you seem to miss all that. As for the criminals in your family, are you really such a dumbfuck that you think all of us have families that are full of felons and welfare mooches? You… Read more »

Tim
Tim
4 years ago

I don’t give a phuck who you are, scribblerg. I’m a rich guy and successful, which is probably why you keep attacking me. You’re probably a loser felon with many loser felon family members sucking off the taxpayer teet, right? I know who you are, bhitch. I’ll revel in your failures, scribblerg, and your families failures. I’ll step on each of your family members on my way to a better world. I’m the one you’ll see in privileged spaces when your stupid ass is too broke and criminal to afford a sip. I’ll spit on you and yours. Think good… Read more »

kfg
kfg
4 years ago

@Tim: “I’ve moved on.”

Note that you used concatenation, not alternation.

@Scribbler: “– you are a fucking mess. You desperately need some help.”

I hold in reserve the possibility that he is a Poe, while acknowledging that Poe’s Law only works because there really are people like that.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
4 years ago

@All The MGTOWs

You know why kfg gets mad respect on this site despite leaning MGTOW? Because he’s one of the funniest motherfuckers on this site. He’s the fucking Ron White of TRM. Always has some dry wit that makes me fucking laugh while barely trying. Nobody bitter can do that shit so consistently. Y’all need to learn from his ass.

goosfraba
goosfraba
4 years ago

@Sun Wukong Erm, so you’re telling me you’re a slave to your biology? I mean sure, I have a sex drive if that’s what you’re getting at, but that’s nothing hookers and porn can’t satisfy. It’s an urge just like hunger, nothing magical about it. I just won’t risk some vapid cunt damaging my life in any way just to get that primitive urge fulfilled. So I keep it as the business transaction that it is. I’m not looking for “companionship” or any imbecile notion like that, women have shown time and time again how they’re not worth having around.… Read more »

kite
kite
4 years ago

I think that I have been conditioned to believe that women possess some sort of super sense by virtue of which she can make any man a “quality man” but only if he give up his frame. However, I have been there but the only think which I acquired was more suffering and pain as the harder I try to please her to make me a “quality man” the more she becomes distant and dissatisfied. I have been trying to turn to the path where I decide what is a “quality man” but the more I travel on this path… Read more »

stuffinbox
4 years ago

Well Tim,Goos, what if your in a prison of your own design,solitary confinement,deep down in the cellar?And Rollo,KFS,Scrib,etc are offering you the key a free pass to the general population with no strings attached.What are you gona do?Sit in solitary rant and rave?Go through the sucky ass fucking general population and come out a free man?Or maybe use your permanent pass ie final option?
The clue bus comes by every hour ,get on and enjoy the ride.

Divided Line
4 years ago

@stuffinbox

“Every squirrel in the woods is out hunting and gathering a surplus of nuts every day they can,with the exception of a few silly squirrels that generally starve to death in the winter.This isn’t capitalism or gynocentrism,only biology.Pay attention don’t be a silly squirrel,this shit is serious.”

Who suggested that gynocentrism isn’t biological? It clearly is.

Divided Line
4 years ago

@Scribblerg ” @DividedLine You aren’t nearly as well informed or as intelligent as you think you are.” I never said I was intelligent or informed. All you’ve really said here is that you think I’m intelligent and informed. Gee, thanks, I guess. I wasn’t aware that we’re all supposed to be proving how intelligent and informed we are here. I thought it was just a bunch of guys trying to figure out what is true, not a pissing contest. “Your response to my cogent analysis of your idea about how gynocentrism gives rise to capitalism was, Of course gynocetrism gives… Read more »

stuffinbox
4 years ago

Gynocentrism is biological but the squirrel doesn’t consider it.It is just happy to survive.If I fail to plan then I am planing to fail.This is work,struggle in the human condition.I have learned to enjoy it.

stuffinbox
4 years ago

Got to go fishing now and maybe unplug some white knight AFC.
Shine it on.

A Definite Beta Guy
4 years ago

Divided: What do you mean by “gynocentrism”? Not sure I understand the terms. Men trade some measure of resources to women, that’s how we evolved biologically and that will remain the case until the end of time. There are ideologies that require men to provide resources for women as proving their “masculinity,” but many of these ideologies are downright patriarchal. If your problem is any net social transfer of resources from men to women and their offspring, then virtually all civilizations are “gyno-centric” and I am not sure what the purpose of the term is. Capitalism is compatible with traditional… Read more »

YaReally
4 years ago

@scribblerg “YaReally seems to believe that one cannot contemplate the subject without becoming insecure about it or invested in it.” I’ve said no such thing. You’re lumping everyone you disagree with together, I very purposely don’t make personal attacks like that in these discussions because your dick size is irrelevant to whether the points you’re making are accurate or not. “I was just curious. It gets a bit tiring to be lectured to for the wrong reasons.” You were lectured to because you shit-posted nonsense that muddies the point I’m trying to make and lurkers are looking for an excuse… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

@Defbeta – I seriously considered asking Divided to define Gynocentrism and Capitalism too, but I believe it to be a waste of time. To even construct an argument in this way reveals a deep ignorance of the ideas he’s hamfistedly preening about so I thought it would fruitless. I attempted to engage him on this topic more thoughtfully on this thread but he just ignored it, so I assume he’s ego invested in this claptrap. @Divided – Your droning lectures about nonsense are what make me believe you think yourself to be much brighter than you are – I did… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
4 years ago

@KFG and Sun – KFG a MGTOW? MGTOW mean’s one eschews women in every way possible. KFG has shared how he runs Old Man Game on young hotties, so I’m not quite sure he qualifies. And defining MGTOW to mean anything other than eschewing social interactions with women (including sex) is to render the term meaningless. Without that, you are just a Red Pill man, nothing more. In fact, central to the Red Pill and how it’s explicated by Rollo is the development of a self-defined approach to life, “becoming one’s own point of mental origin”, MGTOW does not own… Read more »

YaReally
4 years ago

Also when I talk about MGTOW I’m generally picturing the chill ones who’ve just made a logical “you girls do your thing over there and I’ll do mine over here” decision and are otherwise enjoying their life, moreso than the ones with the super-“fuck those harpy bitches I hope they all burn in hell”-rage lol And that’s just for those men’s own mental health, because holding onto that much anger long-term can fuck a person up. In the PUA community we put a lot of focus on letting go of anger/resentment (“read some Tolle, bro!”), not to white knight women… Read more »

Kate Minter
Kate Minter
4 years ago

Once you know the rules, it’s very hard to find someone you can’t play. If you choose one you can, you’ll fight forever not to. If you choose one you can’t, you win.

Re upstart red pill women cashing in: new master, same leash.

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

@ YaReally

Thanks for that perspective.

Thanks for the easy going personality you have. And the attempt to curb the animosity.

Sometimes TL;DR is not a bad thing. Made me realize that there is absolutely nothing wrong in White Knighting Kitten Holliday if it promotes good discussion. Not all ego-investments are bad. One should ditch the bad ego-investments and amp up the good ones. And of course only the insecure brag about getting laid.

And you pointed out good things not to say as a red pill enthusiast. Thanks.

Divided Line
4 years ago

@Scribblerg

“@Divided – Your droning lectures about nonsense are what make me believe you think yourself to be much brighter than you are – I did not say you made an actual claim about your intelligence. But your commentary reeks of pseudo-intellectuality. Try making a point in 1-2 paragraphs. Even better try to make a point that someone might remember 5 minutes later.”

You’re one to talk. And talk and talk and talk…

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

LoL

SJF
SJF
4 years ago

And Heehee:

“I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement.”

Divided Line
4 years ago

@Scribblerg “Yet you just ignored all that and go on and on and on and on. It’s ridiculous. Your attempts at amateur evo psych are blatant sophistry. But they are utterly consistent with seeing men as dumb. blind slaves with no actual agency and that serves your biases for some reason.” This bit is just bizarre. I don’t even know what to say to this. I don’t think men are dumb, blind slaves. I think we’re the builders of civilization and women are the muse which inspires our genius. And I’ve written plenty about the strawman of biological determinism that… Read more »

Roused
Roused
4 years ago

@yareally Agreed, the convo got amped up and became somewhat of a mental pissing match. I myself got a bit preachy and arrogant. There is something about this site though that demands constant work and moving forward. There is an EDGE to TRM that is challenging for all of us and doesn’t much tolerate laziness. I noticed right away that for guys like me who need immediate triage help is always here. But then generally you’re expected to step up or shut up. Shit or get off the pot. Personally, I thrive in that competitive atmosphere. Doesn’t mean others do.… Read more »

nastynate
nastynate
4 years ago

It’s been interesting over the years watching all the different male internet-spaces fall one after another due to in-fighting, female inclusionism, bigotry, racism, etc…

YaReally
4 years ago

@Roused “Males have to work this one man at a time.” And do you think the way people have been handling the discussion (justifying it through “we’re just men scrapping a bit, no biggie” as always) is productive in any way to reaching any of the men that come here? Have any of the MGTOWs who’ve read this thread had their opinions changed by the flip-your-shit style of “debate” this comment section is taking? ’cause from what I see skimming this, Tim came here with a perfectly reasonable calm rational presentation of his side of things and now he’s in… Read more »

YaReally
4 years ago

Very few guys have people in real life we can discuss the red pill with, so it’s understandable that for those guys this place would become a haven and kind of a club and the regulars become more regular and start feeling like they own the place and it feels good to have buddies (even ones you scrap with) that are all on the same page with this stuff. But don’t forget there are a LOT of men at various stages in their lives looking for resources to help them figure out what that itch they can’t seem to scratch… Read more »

cheupez
4 years ago

@ya really

Natural sequelae. If the content in the TRM remains descriptive, then tolerance. When it takes a prescriptive trajectory, then of course bickering will follow.

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