Women ‘Improving’ Men

Improving_men

“I’d honestly love if the manosphere would actually focus on helping men in relationships and self-improvement.”

I had this comment offered in a recent thread. It’s a common gripe from women who believe they’re in some way Red Pill and want to divert their new acceptance of Red Pill truths to serve the same tired ends of the Feminine Imperative. The operative, of course, is always whose definition do we base the measure of ‘improvement’ on? For most women the term ‘improvement’ always aligns with whatever best serves a female sexual strategy – because from a feminine-solipsistic perspective whatever serve women should necessarily serve men.

As with most uneducated women’s concerns I’d already addressed this long ago in The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill:

A lot gets made of the Dark Triad or the Dark Side of Game where a skillful player can sadistically use his newly learned red-pill super powers for evil instead of for the greater good of mankind. Game-aware women – the ones who have been forcibly exhausted of all pretense of maintaing the illusion that Game is a lie – feel as though it’s owed to them, in their concession of Game’s reality, that Men should use Game to women’s benefit. Even to the last effort women still cling to the tools of a feminized acculturation;

“Yeah, OK, you got us, Game is really what women want, Hypergamy is the law of womankind, but now it’s your responsibility that you use it for the better benefit of society by molding a new breed of improved Betas to accommodate fem-centric monogamy. You owe us our security for having admitted to the grand illusion that’s kept you in thrall for so long.”

It’s an indictment of Game-aware women, and sympathizing men, that they should feel a need to delineate some aspects of Game into good camps (pro woman, pro feminized monogamy) and bad camps (manipulative, polygynous, male-centered). Even in the admission of the truth that Game has enlightened Men of, the feminine imperative still seeks to categorize the application of Game to its own end. That Men might have some means of access to their own sexual strategy is too terrible a Threat; Game must be colored good or bad as it concerns the imperatives of women and a fem-centric societal norm.

As the default, socially correct and virtuous concern, women have an easier time of this. As Game becomes increasingly more difficult to deny or misdirect for the feminine, the natural next step in accepting it becomes qualifying its acceptable uses. While hypergamy is an ugly truth, the characterization of it becomes “just how women are” –an unfortunate legacy of their evolution. However for Men, the characterizations of the harsher aspects of Game in its rawest form  (contingencies for hypergamy) are dubbed “the dark arts”.

In her trolling ignorance she fails to understand that she and many “Red Pill Women” before her all want a better Beta. They want a Beta with a side of Alpha – in essence a better slave; one that’s just ignorant enough of female nature and the consequences that ignorance represents, but one who also Just Gets It and satisfies their need for amused mastery, masculine dominance (when it’s convenient and affirming), and ‘just gets women’ so well he never needs to be made aware of women’s nature.

The difference in this case is that the ostensibly “Red Pill” woman now looks to the manosphere’s best and brightest to provide them with such men via some distortion of Red Pill social proof. Not only that, but, in their entitled hubris, they are all too willing to pander to exactly the male idealistic nature I described in the last post. Their appeal is to Red Pill aware men’s sense of duty, honor or integrity in mentoring other Blue Pill Beta men (the ones they hope to improve) in an acceptable Purple Pill fashion – just enough ‘self-improvement’ to serve women’s sexual strategies, but just enough watered down ignorance of women’s feral nature to serve as what they believe would be their ‘right guy’.

You’re just not a “Man” if you don’t promote a feminine reviewed and approved version of the Red Pill to other men.

Many of the wives and women that participate in formerly Red Pill married forums follow this invasion into that previously male space and then turn it to similar ends.

The worst part of this bastardization of course is that they only need to encourage the parts of Red Pill awareness that serves their ends. They feel entitled to Red Pill men educating the plugged-in in how to become the ‘improved’ men they believe they deserve. Thus it’s an easy bandwagon to get aboard so long as their redefinition of what actually is Red Pill jives with what they feel is their due in men.

Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

The ideal situation for Red Pill women here is to have a group of respected Red Pill men educate the next generation of plugged-in men to provide the attractive aspects of this awareness while stifling the uncomfortable threatening aspects that might require women to actually prove their own worthiness of those men.

Sexy Psychopaths

My good friend Dagonet had a bit of a misguided hope in this tweet today:

https://twitter.com/TheQuestForever/status/686981982014668800

Once again, male idealism gets the better of one of our own. I wish it were in fact the case that women’s innate, evolved Hypergamy could be overridden so they would find men’s higher-order virtues and ideals to be arousing and attractive. This, however, is not the reality we are dealing with.

Reader Gregg brought up an interesting, and as you’ll read timely, comment about why Dag is in error:

Men think that women want “confident, strong” men. Why do we think that way? Because women told us so, or we have read it in some “wise” 500 pages psychology book. Our old provider needs to believe this, so that he has some “noble” manly goal he can pursue. Of course it is very beneficial for women to have STRONG, CONFIDENT slave that protect her. Put aside our male ego, our goals and aspirationas when we want to understand women. They know that our male ego will side with them, will help them in their game. Unhampered by ego, woman can easily enslave man like that.

Male ego tells us – we have to be strong and confident..cos it is “manly”, it’s “respectable” and women SHOULD respect that! So it is a given that they respect that! While in reality…nothing is further from the truth. She wants strong and confident men as her protecting slaves but she tingles and craves for emotionally unstable man. Like attracts the like. Is Tyler Durden a strong, confident man? He is unstable, knows weak spot of women, he can live in a moment, is more unpredictable than woman. He is emotionally intelligent, more so than typical women. He behaves more like a woman than like a man. Therefore he HAS POWER over them! Is Mystery a strong, confident man? Anyone who’s read “the Game” knows how he was driven mad by one, single chick.

What are the traits of men, women are madly enslaved to? Is it confidence, is it strenght? NOPE. It is unpredictability, unstability, emotional COLDNESS, psychopathy! In this case he is more unstable than her, so SHE is trying to fix the relationship, she is trying to give them some rules, some stability, some “security”. She must do all the work, otherwise there is nothing. She fills the void. He who cares less…..

We still do not want to confess hard, dark truth about women and about ourselves. We still talk about this burden of performance, confidence, strenght, emh..POSITIVE masculinity. We still discuss with women, try to persuade them with logic, try to impress them with our “performance”, knowledge, experience. So can our man with innate need to perform rule/care less about, the realtionship? How? He is enslaved by his very need to perform which performance will be judged by women!

Ultimate lotharios are neither strong, nor confident. They behave more like women than like men. They do not feel the need to perform, to protect, to build, to be confident, to answer, to be responsible. Take Charlie Sheen as an example. This man is emotionally damaged, unstable, irresponsible, weak. Majority of women are much more stable than him. Yet he has fucked more then 5000 of them. You think it is due to his fame? I am sure each of us know weak men, psychopatic men with no fame, yet with harems of women.

It is still the same…discussion of slaves how to be worthy of women. Maybe mentality, maybe genetics, do not know which one more. And new generations of lambs arises…primed for slaughter as the last. We are loosing my friends, big time.

There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’ll drop a two of the responding comments before I do. YaReally provides some counterbalance here:

YaReally:

And here we come to two different results because Gregg isn’t entirely inaccurate that a lot of fucked up damaged dudes are catnip for girls (and not just damaged fucked up girls, hi madonna/whore complex). Whenever we get two different results we have to drill deeper to find the commonality.

It comes down to the guy having an emotional impact on the girl. It doesn’t matter whether you make her feel good or bad emotions (ideally you make her feel both at various times), all that matters is that you have emotional impact on her. The damaged basketcase hot & cold guy who treats her like a princess one minute then tells her to fuck off because his life is falling apart the next is giving her a full range of emotions. So is the super confident guy with his shit together who’s running push/pull on her.

The biggest thing no one will talk about because it sets guys on a bad path is how fucked up and falling apart your life can really BE and you can still attract and keep hot poon around. Ideally we want men to go the TRP route where they build their careers and hit the gym and don’t booze it up etc. But the reality is you can be a fucking MESS and still get hot girls, as long as you have emotional impact on them. It’s why chicks will whore themselves out for ugly pimps and go back to abusive relationships, and on the flip side it’s why they’ll leave dependable boring guys who give them an emotional flatline day to day.

Personally I think that in the old days a chick had a baby at an early enough age to fulfill her need for crazy emotional impact drama to keep her happy and not craving it, but these days since they don’t want kids till they’re 30+ they fill that voice with the cock carousel, cats, Eat Pray Love adventures, hundreds of hours of Netflix (shows/movies full of emotional ups and downs), fucking guys like me, etc.

And finally I’m going to paraphrase SJF’s comment here for another perspective:

What makes you think “lothario” is the kind of man some of us want to be? (although I’m not sure if you are advocating being one or not.) A lothario is an unscrupulous seducer of woman. Unscrupulous means having or showing no moral principles; not honest or fair.

Just because a man has an innate desire (not need) to perform, doesn’t mean he is enslaved. The Rational Male certainly confesses/explicates/describes truths about women and ourselves. Some of us aren’t shackled by knowledge of the burden of performance and having confidence, strength and positive masculinity. Some of us have found that not to be a burden. To be a low hurdle to real power. With low downside and potentially huge upside.

As an aside here I would also point out that Gregg’s focus on men’s Burden of Performance is entirely on serving women’s interests rather than a natural order of male idealism. This is a common mindset among Blue Pill, plugged-in men, they can’t imagine an existence where their finding of an idealistically male purpose or passion in life is set in a context that doesn’t relate to how women perceive it. It’s a logical trap that most MGTOWs find themselves in – they want a world where their performance burden is removed with regard to women, but still refuse to accept that this burden exists independent from women’s perceptions.

In other words they can’t exit the Game, the fundamental rules persist; whether they choose to play or not the Game proceeds in spite of their involvement.

That being what it is, I’ve set these two concepts together here for a reason. First we have a set of Red Pill women seemingly desirous of Red Pill aware men that serve their imperatives within their acceptable frame of what “Red Pill” ought to be for them. Second we have a parallel between Gregg’s take and YaReally’s take on what women are honestly seeking in an ‘improved’ man – a more perfected slave; one who can embody the worst contradiction to positive masculinity (from Gregg’s perspective), and one who despite his performance burden is really only required to provide emotional polarity to generate tingles and genuine desire.

Toxic Masculinity

Liz’s comment from the last thread (emphasis mine):

Masculinity is not bad, it is good.

The poster responded that toxic masculinity refers to behaviors that cause distress (telling a son not to cry and so forth). I didn’t go further into the argument with her, we didn’t see eye to eye enough to really engage anyway […]

Juxtapose this with the feminine way of going things. He is told everyone has his or her own unique specialness and he just needs some encouragement.

Sometimes I think our idea of “bad” and “good” are skewed, and that’s just feminist poisoning.

Toxic masculinity is yet another narrative buzz word the Feminine Imperative has made endemic in the same way it repeats the “rape culture’ meme. By adding the term ‘culture’ to any article you find offensive you make that article an endemic phenomenon – Rape ‘culture’, Bro ‘culture’, a ‘Culture’ of Corruption, etc.

‘Toxic’ Masculinity is another such exercise. It presumes a universally agreed upon definition of what exactly is toxic – very similar again to the good and bad uses of Game in the Dark Art / Dark Triad associations I made at the beginning of this article. And in Liz’s exchange that definition is whatever male-specific behaviors women find “distressing”.

However as we see in Gregg’s example of ideal masculinity, those distressing attributes are in fact the most arousing attributes of men. I’ve used this example before, but the most pussy I’ve ever enjoyed, the most freely given and most genuinely sought after of myself by women was when I was virtually penniless. I didn’t need to signal parental investment and provisioning cues to get women’s sexual interest, I just need to fit the bill for what YaReally defines as the “fun guy” – or as Sheryl Sandberg agrees, “the bad boy, the crazy boy, the cool boy, and the commitment-phobic boy in order to prompt a woman’s genuinely inspired sexual best.

Women & Altruism:

Altruism plays a role in mate choice, particularly in women’s preferences and in long-term (LT) relationships. The current study analyzed how these preferences interacted with another important mate choice variable, physical attractiveness. Here, female participants were presented with photographs of men of varying levels of physical attractiveness, alongside descriptions of them behaving either altruistically or not in different scenarios. The results showed women preferred altruistic men, particularly in LT relationships and that this interacted with physical attractiveness such that being both attractive and altruistic made a man more desirable than just the sum of the two desirable parts. Also, being altruistic made low attractive men more desirable but only for LT relationships. Finally, men who were just altruistic were rated more desirable than men who were just attractive, especially for LT relationships. Overall, these findings are discussed in terms of the role of altruism in mate choice, particularly in LT relationships and directions of future research.

There’s subsection of Red Pill thought (Athol Kay in particular) that believes that Beta attributes align with the effects oxytocin has on men and women. I’m adding this here to provide a balance to that misguided idea:

It has been suggested that the degree of compassion—the feeling of warmth, understanding and kindness that motivates the desire to help others, is modulated by observers’ views regarding the target’s vulnerability and suffering. This study tested the hypothesis that as compassion developed to protect vulnerable kinships, hormones such as oxytocin, which have been suggested as playing a key role in ‘tend-and-befriend’ behaviors among women, will enhance compassion toward women but not toward men. Thirty subjects participated in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, within-subject study. Following administration of oxytocin/placebo, participants listened to recordings of different female/male protagonists describing distressful emotional conflicts and were then asked to provide compassionate advice to the protagonist. The participants’ responses were coded according to various components of compassion by two clinical psychologists who were blind to the treatment. The results showed that in women and men participants oxytocin enhanced compassion toward women, but did not affect compassion toward men. These findings indicate that the oxytocinergic system differentially mediates compassion toward women and toward men, emphasizing an evolutionary perspective that views compassion as a caregiving behavior designed to help vulnerable individuals.

Those example might seem a bit abstract, but I’m putting them up here to make the point that women’s sexual selection filtering is a two-fold prospect rooted in the dual nature of women’s Hypergamy. What best serves Alpha Fucks is contradicted by Beta Bucks.

Thus we have notions like the attributes that make up “Toxic Masculinity” being arbitrarily whatever aspects of the male nature women find themselves most lacking in men. And by way of that we get a definition that fluctuates according to the Feminine Imperative’s needs. Because of this women, Red Pill or otherwise will never be honest arbiter of ‘improving’ men’s states of masculinity.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kfg
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@Scribbler: “KFG?” Curses! You disarmed my trap before I had a chance to spring it. By your definition, that only “Level 4” MGTOW is MGTOW ( a point of view that I think will only be agreed to by the incels using MGTOW as a buffer), no, I am not MGTOW, although for my own purposes I can move into it for extended periods of time. When those purposes have been served, I can move back out again. My interest is my purpose, not an ideology. But then I would say that MGTOW is a philosophy and that any MGTOW… Read more »

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@Ya Really: “MGTOWs aren’t retarded, I’m sure many of them are open to discussion.”

But not Tim, who entered by flipping his shit because he can’t distinguish between actual individuals who are members of a group and the abstract concept of the group itself. Thus his opening salvo in the “discussion” he purportedly sought was to shoot his greatest natural ally in the head.

It didn’t set things off on a good tone.

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@kfg

Way to go. So I can decide to be MGTOW for an extended time or just a short time, depending. In that case, strictly speaking, all of us are MGTOW at least a few times every day, you know, like when we are taking a walk to the toilet…

Heheheeee

kfg
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@Cheupez: Wife number 2 would follow me to the toilet and wait outside until I emerged again.

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@kfg

Hahahaaaaa…

Man! Tough luck! If feel for you.

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@YaReally It’s hard to be all things to all people, of course. Some people are used to being insulted and attacked for their beliefs and so they’re super defensive and being rough with them is counterproductive. At the same time, sometimes when you just kick someone’s ass in a comment it inspires them to strive for more. It’s happened for me both ways before. I agree that condemning a person for their priorities is kinda pointless. Women can be a lower priority for some men, fine. I’ve never really had a problem with MGTOW as such, though some people identifying… Read more »

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@yareally Points well taken. I have a lot to learn. Your comment about tone was spot on. My mission here is to learn, not to convince MGTOWS to change their mission. I’m too much a greenhorn to be be a teacher. I did cite examples of what works for my life and why I think a non-MGTOW approach can work. I did that because it’s more practical than just citing Rollo, you or anyone else. So maybe I was over exuberant with sharing what works for me. I didn’t call a anybody a stupid cunt or faggot, but did write… Read more »

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@YaReally
“What’s going on here doesn’t seem to be real productive, I have a feeling Tim and the other MGTOWs here aren’t going to be leaving saying “you know they made some good points”. I mean, if the point of this is to actually reach men (and lurkers) rather than create an RVF neomasculinity club where anyone who isn’t toeing the line immediately or doesn’t necessarily know how to interact with other men and their wolf-cub playfighting shit, should just be doggy-piled and burned at the stake.”

Amen.

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@kfg “But not Tim, who entered by flipping his shit” He didn’t enter by flipping his shit. His first posts look very calm and rational. He may not have been open to having his opinion changed but there’s no reason for everyone to have escalated things to the equivalent of monkeys flinging poo at eachother, especially when everyone here is studying the red pill where controlling your emotions is like, red pill 101. And if Tim was the one who escalated shit, there’s no reason for people to engage that and goad it into a CH-style flamewar. @Forge The Sky… Read more »

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Got two posts in mod, but I saved one of them just incase lol @Rollo “Although it may seem as if I was baiting Tim, my point was to ask the question as to what conditions would make otherwise MGTOW men ‘feel safe’ enough to interact with women?” All good, it looked like he was open to answering questions too. “OK, I get it, but what would need to change in a social context to make intersexual dynamics something MGTOWs would consider?” I would love to hear their response to this. I’d also love to not have to sift through… Read more »

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New study:

Women instinctively guard their sexual partners from other women who are ovulating.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2016-02074-001/

Sun Wukong
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@goosfraba so you’re telling me you’re a slave to your biology? I’m telling you that everybody is. You and I are both included in everybody. I also happen to find no strong argument against Sam Harris on the idea of Free Will, so you can consider that part of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g So, uh, yeah. That’s exactly what I’m telling you. Everybody is, and that includes me. Being aware of it allows you to bend a few rules here and there, but in the end you’ll dance to that master’s tune or pay the price for not doing so. @YaReally In… Read more »

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” Now that’s the question, Rollo. Good one. My mother was a whore. She dumped my father to screw my step father because he had a larger dick and a much larger wallet than my real father. They ended up destroying one another – which in my mind is poetic justice. I did nothing to ease the pain of their last days. I’m glad they’re both dead and both died impoverished, painful lives. My real father was an honorable man. He died clean.”

…Woah.

I’m still playing catchup. Lottsa comments.

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Some guys have an abrasive temperament, then others are too sensitiven I guess. To grow a thick skin is all I can say to them. MGTOW is a spectrum. Those who cannot deal with women any more because once bitten twice shy are entittled to that. If one adapts the life style as a statement or rally effort against legislation and social environment hostile to men; they are entitled to that too. To each his own. Some of us will continue getting offers and continue to plough pussy right left center no matter how loud the MGTOW howl to stop.… Read more »

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@Sun Wukong “So, uh, yeah. That’s exactly what I’m telling you. Everybody is, and that includes me. Being aware of it allows you to bend a few rules here and there, but in the end you’ll dance to that master’s tune or pay the price for not doing so.” If porn, VR-sex, prostitution, webcam chicks (esp once webcams and VR combine and you have girls giving you virtual handjobs with your synchronized fleshlight or whatever it all turns into in the next few years), etc take care of a guy’s biological urges enough that he’s not on the verge of… Read more »

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A lot of you guys shitting on these men that identify as mgtow have no frame of reference to relate to these men’s LIVED experience. Some of you may have had bad divorces, or bad relationships or acted like simps and fucked everything up; and now with your new redpill outlook you look that these angry MGTOW guys as say to yourselves “I got over it, whats this pussies problem.” But does your particular experience really align with theirs? In my experience, there are 2 different guys that identify as mgtow. The Omega guy who’s natural SMV is so low,… Read more »

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@YaReally Preach it brother. The infighting is dumb. If nothing else, MGTOW is a virtual safe space for the newly unplugged to land. A man can stay there as long as he wants while he figures shit out and gets his legs back under him. The entire definition of MGTOW means there are as many kinds of MGTOW as there are men in the movement. They are all going their own way after all. Some value game, some don’t. I would think the PUA and game communities would love MGTOW. Every man that willingly takes himself out of the market… Read more »

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@nastynate Excellent comment. I check out a lot of MGTOW/MRA stuff so I’ve seen a lot of those horror stories. It’s great that some guys run into trauma like that and still come out of it wanting to take on the challenge of learning pickup and the red pill and chasing poon after going through hell, but for the guys who don’t it’s like man, a lot of their stories I hear and am like “I can’t even blame you for viewing the situation this way after what you went through”. I think a lot of the hate comes from… Read more »

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Personally, I have no issue with MGTOW mindsets in total. Folks can do whatever they like. It’s the reasoning ( sometimes ) that show that there may be deeper issues working beneath the surface. Those issues I may, or may not, attempt to address. But do I think I’d ever convince a MGTOW to reverse course? Hell to the No. Tim is an extreme example imo. I doubt most guys foregoing ” women ” have the same experiences or reactions to their life experiences that Tim has. I’m actually exhausted from reading Tim’s tirade/commentary. Rollo, patron saint of patience, asked… Read more »

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@YaReally “The price” won’t always look the way people think it will. Say you spend your younger years absorbed in video games, porn, and booze because it was “good enough” then, but down the road you realize it ain’t enough. Now you’re playing catch up trying to learn shit you should have been learning all along. That’s the situation I’m in. Even if VR porn is “good enough” for a long time, I think there will come a point when it isn’t, particularly with what the current generation is going to be like. And the simple fact is the reason… Read more »

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@Rollo and about being a slave to our dicks:

I stated (and maintain) that if I could get rid of my sexual desire and keep everything else the same I would sign up for it, but I know that it can’t work like that as it is such a fundamental part of our (male) bodies.

But even then, even if I wouldn’t be a slave to my dick, I’d still be a slave to my stomach or lungs or whatever. Maybe these guys just want their brains uploaded to some computer mainframe like in some sci-fi works.

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“You can be aware of it, curb it here and there, delay it, but ultimately in some way even avoiding it is acknowledging it and doing SOMETHING about it. That biology is driving your actions. It’s an inescapable fact.” As I heard someone else say: “Just remember that self-discipline is not self-suppression. Suppression is when you resist and fight against your desires, keeping them as buried and unexpressed as possible. Self-discipline is when your highest desires rule your lesser desires.” So maybe MGTOW can be self-discipline. Or maybe it is self suppression with the release-from-constraint coming from giving up. I… Read more »

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I don’t know why you guys are trying to get men to abandon MGTOW! , hell, I hope 90% of men go their own way, just think how much women we will all have.
Less compensation.
Go MGTOW, Go and don’t come back.

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@Rollo
“if those liabilities were removed or mitigated would MGTOW be less appealing? Absolutely. In fact, even YouTube’s ‘Messenger Rising’, one of the most hardcore MGTOW monks around, admitted that most mgtow’s didn’t want to be so if the liabilities weren’t there. Go to minute 8:30 on the video below, and he says it outright.

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Less competition that is.

Divided Line
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I just don’t think MGTOW is realistic. Maybe some the older guys who have been through hell and back really are done with women, but I suspect most of the younger guys are conning themselves. I really hope I’m wrong. Nobody wants to believe MGTOW is possible more than me. I’d love to see men exit the rat race in droves and watch the whole thing burn. But even if something like that did happen, I wouldn’t be joining them. Going MGTOW is awful, in my opinion. It’s just lonely. It’s not even about sex, but basic emotional and psychological… Read more »

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Re: the OP Women cannot improve men. Feminists have weakened the host; parasitic overreach. https://www.rt.com/op-edge/329241-europes-tragedy-merkel-immigration/ Will they realize their errors, do an about face and repair the damage? In the long run it is possible, in the short run I rather doubt it. Given we are all dead in the long run…. On the upside, my wing made some progress last night. As we have no sophisticated plan, I removed myself and waited for him to finish up. A cooperative equilibrium. I still can’t shake the lack of meaning in western societies; elite corruption and their betrayal of the masses… Read more »

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@Divided Line “Women are awful, but MGTOW is worse. Maybe it’s just me.” Dude, you’re just holding on to your old blue-pill idealization of women. You are yerning for the matrix, performance independant, version of a relationship that was never possible anyway. Women aren’t horrible. They’re just women. The government and society at large is enabling them to do some horrible shit right now. But it is possible to have a decent relationship with a chick, even now in this cluster fuck we call society. If you genuinely feel happier being with women, follow through and go all the way… Read more »

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Women are not awful. That’s an exaggeration. Try not to overreact. I see women like I see Pitbulls in a way. Pitbulls have a genetic capability to be deadly. I’ve lived around a culture that adores raising them to be violent and murderous. Routinely, many adults and children have been maimed or killed by the dogs. So, realistically ( as much as I dislike the notion of pitbulls in my area ), are Pitbulls awful, or is the twisted, sick aspect of a certain culture that promotes the bad behavior, that they are physically and mentally more suited for, the… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Hey YaReally, Thanks for commenting, as usual. Helping me to iron out my own thoughts. I don’t think I’m really one of the guys who goes after MGTOW’s and female commenters, so a lot of this doesn’t have to do with me. But this all does make me think about the best ways to help other guys and give advice. It’s tricky to know when to just let a guy be because he’s happy, and when to try to inspire him to want more. Basically I just try to feel out if the guy is actually happy with where he’s… Read more »

Blaximus
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Lol…. when did liking pussy become like having a Gambling problem?

Divided Line
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@nate Nah, I think I’m pretty realistic about it these days. I expect very little from women now. I recognize they aren’t capable of much.

@blaximus

I just see them as perpetually disappointing children.

Blaximus
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Hello. My name is Blaximus, and I like pussy/women… ** Hi Blaximus **

I really started liking pussy at age 13 and it got progressively worse from there.

** We hear you Blaximus **

I need help…

** We’re here to help you Blaximus **

No, really, my zipper’s stuck and I gotta go bone the wife… I need help with it.

Blaximus
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@Divided

I’m not even disappointed in them anymore. No more so than hurricanes or giant snow storms. Just shit that happens sometimes.

fleezer
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“Women are not awful. That’s an exaggeration.” agree. and while the best thing they do is sex, I think they bring great balance to my life and off the top of my head here are some things that I learned about and or got interested in because of women musical theater (not a fan but it is part of the human experience going way back and I can appreciate the talent that some performers have) coffee (now is the best time in history to grind and brew it yourself if you don’t live in ethiopia or colombia) mdma (really great,… Read more »

fleezer
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“Why learn Game at all when you can have infinite sexual variety via prostitutes and porn?”

women are all the same. the variety comes from within me. I’m different every time.

learn game and you’ll always be growing

stuffinbox
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@Realy Yahrealy Spent 20yrs at AA meetings,all meetings have a chair person.Some chairs allow cross talk some don’t. Cross talk being comments on comments,as you say this can be abraisive to new people.Some chairs hold everyone strictly on topic of the chairs choosing some let it wander randomly.People come and go between meetings some just say these guys are assholes and go for some more mind eraser. It would appear that there is no way to chair a 24/7 meet like this and even if it could be done there is no way to avoid pissing someone off. They get… Read more »

Blaximus
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Fleezer… Someone waaaayyyy up in the comment stream commented that women are only good for sex. I don’t recall who it was, and I’m too busy ( read: Lazy ) at this moment to go back and look. It was also said that women have shitty insights and conversations and etc. etc. etc. ( paraphrasing ). http://img.pandawhale.com/84962-Joker-gif-very-poor-choice-of-sMrv.gif Granted, I’ve had some dim witted chicks in my life, but I’ve had a lot of dim witted dudes also. When guys have an attitude like that, I attribute it to not getting out and spending enough time with a wide variety of… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Blax I can cosign, but would add that how girls treat you is highly dependent on your mindset. If you are suspicious or resentful of them, or otherwise don’t like them, they’ll pick up on it and be a bitch to you out of self-defense. If you act like a nice beta to them they’ll be nice and fun and platonic with you, but shame you hardcore if you try to sexualize things. If you act alpha they’ll get all sweet and silly and girly and try to entice you to sexualize things with them. It’s been said before but… Read more »

Blaximus
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@Forge ” It’s been said before but I’ll say it again. If you walk out your door and someone is an asshole to you, you just met an asshole. If everyone you meet that day is an asshole, you’re the asshole.” I am stealing this right now. Mindset is practically everything. I was raised with 3 sisters and in a neighborhood where chicks outnumbered us guys 10:1. Quite a few girls were as close to me as my guy friends. I have a different take on male/female dynamic because of that I guess. The only thing I held against my… Read more »

Roused
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Some of my comments that could have been taken as offensive were from a part of my thinking that if I can do it then anybody can. Over the past five years I’ve gone through some shitty depression from the outcome of my choice for divorce and the shocking consequences. I use the word shocking because who woulda thunk my ex would do the things she and her family did? At times I think I’m an idiot for choices I’ve made without fully understanding and being able to project future outcomes. I truly have felt the pain of what my… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Blax

One of the first dates my parents had, he took her to the theater to see the latest Monte Python flick. He says he was rolling in the aisles, and she just thought it was ‘kinda gross.’

This still happens when they watch something with crude humor in it lol. The more things change….

scribblerg
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Perhaps I haven’t been clear. MGTOWs have many other places where they can go do their thing – my objection is their endless prattle here. I come here because it’s not about MGTOW. I’m not interested in hearing the latest emotional retard come in here and tell Rollo how he’s full of shit and how we are all pussy beggars and slaves to women. I won’t be polite about it and have no obligation to. Unlike YaReally, I don’t see myself on some mission of unplugging or as some authority in the Red Pill world. And oh yeah, while we’re… Read more »

Blaximus
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@Forge

Yes!

I found this ( youtube has everything…jeeezz ). I remember my friends and I rolling on the floor laughing, and all the chicks recoiling in horror.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfmM59S_5EE?feature=player_detailpage&w=640&h=360%5D

stuffinbox
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Shit wimin when der all bleedin jes stick um in da bloody cave an set up a ambush fer griz.

Anonymous Reader
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Long story short, there’s a lot of ways for one man or group of men to tell other man / men IF you are not doing it MY WAY you are DOING IT WRONG!!. That’s what the Elam /Roosh thing boils down to. That’s what militant MGTOW popping in for a series of rants boils down to. That’s what MRA vs. PUA snarking boild down to.That’s what too many woof-woof-woof fests in the comments here boil down to. Hey, if I’m going my own way and I DGAF about most of the rest of humanity, then what possible reason is… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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Posted too quick. Part of all this woof-woof-woof stuff between MRA’s vs. MHRA’s (there’s a diff) vs. PUA’s vs. MGTOW vs. various redpill vs. the churchgoing red-sorta-pill is this: there’s no hierarchy. None. Nobody outranks anyone else, and so like puppies in the back yard various men are striving to gain status and thus rank over other men. That’s the human politics of it. The reality politics of it is this: not every M***** man or bunch is operating off of the same premises, and anyone trying to salvage 1970’s equalitarian feminism is basing his / her / its position… Read more »

SJF
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Scrib: “I’m not LARPing here – I’m out to save my fucking life” Anon: “We men don’t herd very well. We can form a hierarchy, define authority and responsibility, figure out who outranks whom, but we don’t herd well at all. Women herd quite well.” We herd just fine when our life is on the line. When we engage like our fucking life is on the line, then we really can start living. I too engaged in red pill awareness and game like my life was on the line (It wasn’t, but no matter, I thought it was in the… Read more »

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@scribblerg

Let me get this straight. You used to be a MGTOW until you found TRM. When you first found this place you argued for a while until you started to see what Rollo was putting forward.

As for these new MGTOW humps, they can all piss off. No need for them to argue for a while until they start to put the pieces together.

Sorry guys, I guess there is only room for one former MGTOW here.

benfromtexas
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Reading posts from readers are just as fascinating as the post itself. I’ve gotten to where I don’t even watch news or other forms of pop culture that much. I just tune in here and other blogs. I’d rather read Rollo, YaReally, Blaximys, ect… responses than indulge in pop culture.

benfromtexas
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I think there was a spell check problem there. Way too much Evan Williams on a Sunday night before the work week begins. LOL

nastynate
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@Is This Thing On? “scribblerg Let me get this straight. You used to be a MGTOW until you found TRM. When you first found this place you argued for a while until you started to see what Rollo was putting forward. As for these new MGTOW humps, they can all piss off. No need for them to argue for a while until they start to put the pieces together. Sorry guys, I guess there is only room for one former MGTOW here.” I think what he’s saying is he’s pissed about is the zealot mgtow guys that don’t come here… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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@SJF: “We herd just fine when our life is on the line.”

Deer herd. Wolves pack. Although they are both groups with an internal social structure, we use different words for them because they are different.

cheupez
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Actually many MGTOW realize and admit that women hate pussy beggars and prefer pussy takers. But to them, pussy taking is too dangerous a game to risk playing.

mersonia
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@scribblerg “Also, stop trying to be the thought and comment police here – you may want “peace”, but what makes what you want any more important than what I want? Answer: Nothing” Objectively ………..ya provides more value than you . so the general consensus would like him to stay since he actually provides helpful commentary and advice . meanwhile outline of scribblergs conversations. rather than just ” I AM ThE ALMGighty SCribBLERRGG! (cue life story about how the almighty scribblerg ((use)) to be this….that…irrelevant stuff..begins ranting on everyone else….) someone replies ” YOU DARE reply to the mighty SCRiblLERG! Hate… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Actually many MGTOW realize and admit that women hate pussy beggars and prefer pussy takers. But to them, pussy taking is too dangerous a game to risk playing.

It’s still an attitude of self-limitation and standing in your own way. Sure a plain ol’ pussy beggar is pretty pathetic, but fearing the pussy pass? Shit’s on the same level to me.

cheupez
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I have heard that it used to be in the old times; eunuch was a job description. Some men voluntarily took up such jobs. Some men have no use for women. But it might appear that arrogance and/or cognitive blind spots in some of us make us completely oblivious to that fact.

Divided Line
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@Scribblerg ‘Most profoundly, I began to understand intersexual dynamics and the role I played in the troubles I’ve had in my life. I saw how my own betaization and Blue Pillness, my pedestalization of women, ,made it impossible for my wife to respect and love me. This was a hugely bitter pill to swallow, and initially, the shame of it was overwhelming. My ego was so invested in believing that I’d been screwed over that it was impossible for me to see my part in the matter. But over time, as I reframed my reality and used what I was… Read more »

Divided Line
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Maybe this is what would work: What if I just separate my life into two spheres. One is devoted to things I care about, regardless of what women think about it. In fact, I’ll just keep that sphere totally separate and not even mention it, that way I don’t end up trying to sell myself to women with it the way the beta workhorse always tries to rely on what he does as a way of qualifying for women. In this sphere I’ll cultivate a new idealism, but I’ll keep it entirely hidden from women so that I can be… Read more »

Divided Line
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If I did it that way, then maybe I could truly internalize making women an addition to my life, rather than the focus of it.

stuffinbox
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@Divided
Like the man that got chased around the tree by a bear i am an expert on one tree and one bear.But after reading the spheres theory I believe that if I stick with the first sphere I will be happier more free and true to myself and probably get more pussy because of the mystery and just being my own man.As the second sphere looks like a week plan b in case the idea doesn’t work well.I’m not thinking out loud as it may create the illusion of vaccilating that would bring on mutiny imediatly.

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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@ Rollo & everyone who seemed to be commenting on the MGTOW thing. Going MGTOW was never about completely segregating yourself from women. Barbar who was the person who created this modern version of MGTOW is dating long term. But people refuse to acknowledge that, and by people I am talking about people within the MGTOW community. Because I am personal friends with Barbar, SD, Spetsnaz and people who are being held in high esteem within the community I know that these people do not care what people choose to do with their genitals. It is up to the individual.… Read more »

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@Nastynate – Former MGTOW and even those asking intelligent questions based on actual knowledge of what’s being discussed are great. But the constant “you are pussy slaves, MGTOW is male liberation” horseshit is something quite different. And of course anyone is “welcome” here in the sense that Rollo runs an open forum. My point is that if you are here to fight for MGTOW (eschewing social interactions with women) then why bother? It’s annoying and counterproductive. Rollo is never going to wake up one day and say, “Gosh, them MGTOW are right, women – and particularly their vaginas – are… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Mersonia – I agree YaReally’s commentary on pickup is world class and brilliant. But taking that authority and then telling others how to comment isn’t warranted. I know it’s hard for you to see the difference due to your blinding hatred of me, but try to actually base your comments on what I say, not what you think I said.

kobayashii1681
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@Rollo: “If you answer yes, then how does that not make you a ‘pussy beggar’?”

Sensei, if I’m understanding this correctly, could it be said, that adopting this view is basically negotiating desire on some level.
In other words, MGTOWs not playing the game doesn’t negate it’s existence, or, its impacts on them, not to mention, the burden of performance.
I think this is the reality that many of them find hard to accept.

scribblerg
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@Divided – A very honest comment, thanks. “Let’s get real about it. It’s not like women have good reason to behave the way they do. ” You are simply wrong. You don’t understand behavior, psychology or the social aspects of it at all. Any individual woman is at the effect of so many factors. As well, the “dog’s balls rule” always applies for all humans, men too. That rule is: Why does a dog lick its balls? Answer: Because it can. What you demonstrate very neatly in your comment is the “equalism” Rollo decries and identifies as the key element… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Niko Their disagreement with PUA related messages has always been that it prioritises the feminine. “You have to be like this because women like this kind of things” That is the kind of PUA message that they disagree with. What reason do you have to disagree with it? Because what I see is this: the majority of MGTOW I see show up here are still clearly interested in getting their rocks off. They clearly recognize the difference between doing so via masturbation and doing so via actual sex with a woman. There’s rarely any disagreement that fucking a chick is… Read more »

Seraph
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@Everyone, regarding current comment kerfuffles… I have said previously that all aspects of RP thought CANNOT afford to be be fighting each other tooth and nail. We are up against too much to expend that much energy in tearing each other down. We are fighting both biological and societal forces, some ingrained with us, and infighting to the death is counter-productive. Men should be be able to find enough common ground in the crap they go through to treat one another as allies when it comes to the forces trying to enslave them and treat them as expendable. YaReally’s got… Read more »

Seraph
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This should have said :

“Yes, plenty a ‘cunt’ has been thrown around in this space, sometimes a bit too freely, but so has any number of personal attacks against certain commenters and men in general from women who cannot handle being challenged on their horseshit.”

Autocorrect is a pain in the ass…

Andy
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@DividedLine Sounds like you’ve moved on to acceptance. congrats dude. I don’t know if you saw that post I had about Hunter S. Thompson’s letter to his friend about life. You might like it. https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1wd4jz/hunter_s_thompsons_superb_advice_on_how_to_find/ Anyway, regarding the general tone of things around here. You can rack me up as a success story (internally and marriage-wise at least.) Looking back though I think really only Blaximus(I do listen to you dude), Forge, Rollo, YaReally and a full smattering of random people ever truly helped. And I fully admit that I contributed to the tone and shit, but I have to… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Sun – What do you think of this distinction? I don’t see what I’m doing here as pure PUA, and hence my weaknesses as a PUA, which I’m now addressing directly via Pimp and RSD. Holy shit, cold approaching is confronting for me as a 53 yr old man, I’m not “supposed to” be behaving this way, society screams it at me and I internalized it. That aside… Rollo has framed game in a much larger way here, in several ways: – Understanding how dominance and masculinity can be used powerfully across all social settings. Essentially, I’ve learned how social… Read more »

SJF
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Shit Andy,

Don’t I get any mention/credit in my ego-protected, condescending ways (and the facade of my pulpit) for stimulating you to rethink your masculine purpose and mission for the better? Even if it was to just be the best father to your children you possibly can be? Or to get you to value your wife just a touch more as your spouse and the mother of your children?

Andy
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@SJF

I love you man, and I knew that would hurt. But like, why does it hurt?

SJF
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It doesn’t and I knew you did it intentionally. I was just testing your mettle. You passed.

And I’m here to help with your masculine self-improvement. I was in your position 15 years ago and I made it through triage. Don’t discount my services.

SJF
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“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Divided Line Human males behave in this way. Hence the male workplace injuries and death statistics, hence the piles of male corpses in war. Death in the workplace as a side-effect of accomplishing something is not altruism. The risk I take in a job is weighed against the reward. The reward for myself is why I work there, not the good of the corporation. Workplace deaths are not men throwing themselves on the altar of the corporation, with no regard for themselves. Death statistics in the workplace is not an example of altruistic behavior. No mammalian species can manipulate their… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Rollo Tomassi What I do have a problem with is hardline MGTOWs discounting anything less that completely renouncing women on whole as “pussy begging”. That’s how they dismiss you being a PUA and myself for being a 20 years married Red Pill writer. So I ask again, is it a case of the social and legal norms of this age being what they are the reason for ‘going your own way’ or if those liabilities were removed or mitigated would MGTOW be less appealing? It’s pure virtue signalling. Once an “ideal ” is established, then by definition a human ranking… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Jeremy – Home run, sir. His view of altruism is reductionist and silly. And the virtue signalling insight? Holy fuck. Spot on. Well said.

Shiva
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“I doubt legal or social changes would affect these men once they’ve got their head wrapped around achieving MGTOW idealism. ” Us tier 4 MGTOWrs have not given up on farming, but we do not want to be plantation slaves. Legal and social changes have been the prime motivation for tier 4 MGTOWers like me, The society says, “Man up and marry that slut”, we say back “f u”. Rollo having been married and Glenn having being divorce might be spared of this social bullshit, but most of us young MGTOWrs are reminded daily of this. We plate but no… Read more »

Shiva
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Women ‘Improving’ Men
Makes me wonder who ever came up with,
“Behing every successful man there is a woman”

Jeremy
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@Shiva Rollo always mentions symbiosis between male and female, but we live in a society. A society is all about “social contracts”. The current social and legal system is far too skewed in favor of females and thus actually the state, by transitivity. Women have been so much pampered in this system that all their entitlements are too high. Sandman calls them having the golden uterus. What (I believe, I don’t want to wholly put words in his mouth) Rollo is saying at a deeper level is that social contracts, broken or otherwise are for the weak. Our reality is… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@Divided Line Tremendous comment, I think it’s the best description I’ve seen of how a bluepill mindset ‘feels’ like from within once one is redpill aware. A lot of the things you’re describing I went through as well. Maybe I should have written more about them as I was going through them, but I just saw it as being my issue to solve at that point I guess. Or I was just afraid to seem doubtful. I don’t have a magic solution for you, but maybe I can pull out some of the thoughts you have and illustrate how my… Read more »

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[…] I’d had another post on deck for today I simply couldn’t let Divided Line’s most recent comment go unanswered. I was going to riff on his comment in that thread, but it occurred to me that his concerns would be […]

agent p
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for @divided line I like many went through the arc of red pill experience, the shock, anger, the repulsion and so on. Unplugging is hard because you are chucking so much in the garbage bin that you have invested a life in. Eventually however I found myself in a pretty happy place, granted it comes with some pretty fucking cynical days but generally I feel much happier being all RP all the time. If I had to describe the state I feel I am in now with regards to women, it is one of being patriarchal, viewing them broadly speaking… Read more »

HopelessHypergamy
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@Seraph (and others speaking about who has the “right” to speak here.) I can stand as an example of a female commenter who was here because I believe the current societal imbalance toward FI is detrimental to everyone. I made the mistake of opening with my own personal story of despicable hypergamy and immediately lost the potential to be seen to have any value to contribute to the discussion. (Except as an appropriate tale of caution to others of how really *extremely* bad hypergamy can get if not put in check.) I am not complaining about my treatment. I deserve… Read more »

Seraph
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@HopelessHypergamy There’s a new thread, but I just wanted to touch on your experience about something I did not get to with the last post. As Rollo says, it can get hot in this kitchen, and ANYONE coming here has to do so with the understanding that most everyone here has stumbled in after experiencing acute pain and anger over extremely hurtful and damaging events and/or a lifetime of disconnection with women due to the issues we discuss here. As a result there is a lot of resentment and anger built up in posters here, and not all of them… Read more »

Striver
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I’m with Divided Line on this issue. There are gradations between being a supplicating simp and being an alpha asshole. If being a genuine alpha asshole is the only way to be a hit with women, don’t know if I’m willing to go there. I have known a couple of alpha assholes. Yes, they did well with women. They are assholes all the time, not just with women. So the question is if you are essentially faking alpha asshole aka game, whether in time women will see through that and it won’t work. I have heard references to “fake assholes”… Read more »

Bitches
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Sometimes, lately, a woman will do something very altruistic in front of me. She’ll go out of her way to help someone and make sure I see it. It flips a switch that causes me to like the chick more, if that’s her way of trying to get my attention instead of doing something bitchy like try to make me jealous, and also to be suspicious of her at the same time, like I know deep down she’s full of shit and there’s something dishonest about her display of altruism.

Mitchell.S
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Somewhat off topic but, speaking of performance. I can’t help but feel like in every encounter I have with a woman, it feels like I’m separating from my natural self. It’s almost like I’m putting on a show. This is shown around most of my family and friends. I’m more laid back, goofy and talkative about almost anything.
I just want to feel like the same person, internally, no matter who or where I’m with.

Overall, how do I just care less, or become more “outcome independent”?

kfg
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kfg
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@Mitchell:

At the risk of being cliche, knowing is the first step.

Now what you have to do is what you have to do to develop strength at anything; use conscious control to exercise the attribute you wish to strengthen.

It isn’t easy, but despite all the volumes written on it, it is simple.

Jafyk
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Google “Man banned from having sex with woman unless he tells police 24 hours in advance”.

bob bitchin
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^^^ and in a ‘free’ democracy no less. Habeas corpus? Not needed. The guy wasn’t even convicted of a crime yet they have imposed on his liberty, sexual liberty at that, and if he doesn’t comply he faces a 5 year prison sentence. Western govts have betrayed all the principles that took several thousands years to accumulate. Flushing everything that made us great down the drain. Sheer genius. Obviously, theses types of ‘big chaperon’ measures are necessary as all men are rapists, we live in a rape culture, teh patriarchy, blah blah, ad nauseum. No wonder the west is viewed… Read more »

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[…] I disagree with several of Rollo’s conclusions, but I agree with the main point in the post Women Improving Men: […]

Forge the Sky
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@HopelessHypergamy

Dunno if you’re still following this thread, but I’m glad you’re still following along at RM.

Women aren’t discouraged from commenting here but they defiantly face some built-up pushback men aren’t ‘allowed’ to express in everyday life if they comment here.

I got the impression you were really trying to improve the way your relationships turned out. Best of luck.

Arne
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Evolutonary psychology died in arund 2013. The remnants of it still remain, in the form of almost religious beliefs in it.

redlight
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@arne

your problem is you are using the wrong search term, try “evolutionary psychology”. These links will help you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology#External_links

Tim
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@LeeLee — Spot-on. Surrendering to the confident/strong male or hopping on the back of the motorcycle to go wherever his goes is what it’s all about. Children always want a ride, and so do women.

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