Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.
Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.
So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.
Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):
A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.
What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.
In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?
Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.
We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”
Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.
Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.
It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”
No Quarter Given
In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:
We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.
We want to, so badly.
If we do, we soon are no longer able to
When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.
However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.
The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.
And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.
That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.
At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.
Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.
On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.
It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.
By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.
He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.
Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.
No Quarter Expected
I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.
Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.
The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.
Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.
There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.
It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.
Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.
The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?
The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a
planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.
It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”
It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.
So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.
I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.
Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.
Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.
What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.
That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……
I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.
The Red Pill Balance
Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.
KFG had a comment to this point:
If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.
Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.
Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.
This is EXACTLY what I needed to read right now. Thanks, Rollo.
Burden of performance vs performancelessness that is the choice.
We are born to be leaders, so when we are not living up to that, then we must be reviled and replaced. The troops want and must have a Patton or Wellington to take them into battle.
“You do yourself no favors in killing your idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be.”
I appreciate you concluding with this sentiment. Hope is in short supply these days. Striving for our ideals within the current environment is possible. Stay pragmatic, with no denial or delusions, and ideals can be achieved. They may just take a form not yet considered by most. Its out there. Thanks, Rollo.
Thanks for the post. Today I was blindsided, Ironically. Met the girl almost a year ago. She stepped into my frame after I passed her shit tests and was even somewhat red pill in regards to knowing I can be a bit of an asshole. All was well, until she got pregnant. Now she has been desperately trying to pigeonhole me into beta bucks. The past week she’s been bombarding me with bitchmode, all the while I’ve been telling her I’m here and it’ll be ok. Just relax. Well, she’ll no longer have any of it. She told me she… Read more »
@ Rollo: “Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.” How does one reconcile this with the truth that one cannot realize Blue Pill relationship paradigms/ideals in a Red Pill world? In other words, you’ve discussed,… Read more »
…Well. Now I have a MUCH better reason for why I gotta lift and why I gotta be cold. Those things signal survival, and that’s what women idealize. But I gotta be kind and gentle yet strong enough to protect those things in myself. Or else she’ll ultimately eat me alive with that shit I wish I could just shove a device up her asshole and control her with.
There is a really annoying asymmetry when large groups of guys and girls who kinda know each other get together. If a girl likes a guy, it’s a big issue. If a guy likes a girl, it’s no big deal. I noticed this in a bar a few weeks ago. Towards the end of the night I was manhandled into exchanging #s with a girl. Now I’m not Brad Pitt but not Quasimodo either. This girl was borderline obese. What makes her think she can just come and get her people and my people. There is no way I (or… Read more »
Hey so let me ask you a real question for once.
Why do short men exist?
My answer: So taller men look stronger by comparison, thus, in the unfortunate instance that men are unable to get a woman to fuck them by talking to them, the tallest one will still always get to mate.
Personally, I don’t put those idealizations on myself or other people anymore. I realize that I appreciate people much more now than I ever did when they were continually disappointing me. I’m way more empathetic than I have ever been. Internally I had this idealized version of contentment that I was striving for and I finally realized it doesn’t exist. Never going to happen. Now I’m much happier. lol. It’s that same cosmic mind-fuck over and over again.
I too play many roles in the male life I lead today:
Actually, that’s it.
@Deti, The mistake is to believe that men’s idealism is inherently Beta or Blue Pill. The problem is that it can be turned (like the concept of Honor) to serve the purposes of the FI and relatively easy. What Divided Line relates about his ONEitis is an example of this, but because he was conditioned to direct that idealism towards Blue Pill goals that idealism seems associated with being Blue Pill/Feminine serving. In a Blue Pill context men’s idealism is very Pollyanna, and yes, very much a weakness, but that doesn’t discount male idealism as being a strength in a… Read more »
@Scray had a great comment in the last thread about how he’s not afraid to talk to a girl about weaknesses or difficulties he’s facing. Just do it with a smirk and it can actually serve as a great catalyst for connection. It was a good thing for me to hear, now. I’ve spent a while biting the bullet with game and redpill ideas, but at some point of mastery the technical rules give way to intuition, a ‘just being’ redpill or alpha which is much more relaxed and effortless. It’s probably been a solid year since I’ve told anyone… Read more »
Very good audio by Niko. I found it very interesting that his mother saw the father crying, but simply left unnoticed (and only told the son at a later date). At the end of the audio it also brought to my mind the movie Saving Private Ryan, culminating with that ending. I think there are pros and cons to both polarities of Red Pill (Light side or Dark side emphasizing Dark Triad traits). The Dark side isn’t necessarily more successful. Depends on the goals and despite AWALT, should also depend on the women. There are different types of Alpha as… Read more »
Using the blue pill behavior to “ungame” a girl? That may help in a situation where breaking her heart will potentially be harmful, but all it will do for her is give her already inflated ego a boost. If you are breaking up with her, she needs to know why so she can learn from it. Sure, feminine indignation will probably blind her, but her pride and ego will be put in check which is what she really needs.
@Yollo, you ever been to the Philippines? I have. I was easily the tallest guy wherever I went, and I think you probably have an idea about how the women there are ‘enthusiastic’ about tall American visitors. I’m just under 6 feet tall, but imagine what the intersexual social conditions were like in the Philippines before the Spanish arrived and every native man averaged 5′ 5″. The 5′ 7″ Filipino probably got more attention, but he was just one of a handful of guys above the average. Most of the women were likely around 5′ 2″, maybe shorter. So for… Read more »
Joey g: “Women are bloody delusional.”
Welcome to the SMV circa 2016. Like a week back I posted a video of a good looking guy approaching an Hb4 and chatting, then asking her out. She declined. He walked away and got into a black Lambo, and she immediately walked up to the door and asked, “Can I get in?”
Lol holy shit. Think about the entitlement there for a few seconds.
I don’t buy the fact that women are innately just waiting for a man to show weakness so she can betray him. I think western women have been conditioned by feminists since birth to destroy men when given the opportunity. I have my doubts feminism will defeated through political reforms. Most likely it will collapse like the soviet system, as they are basically unsustainable/unnatural and contrary to has worked in society for thousands of years.
@Rollo: I had it on my mind because my wife discussed with me some movies she hadn’t seen and among the ones listed was Saving Private Ryan. I told her it was a very good movie but that she probably wouldn’t enjoy it too much. I want to check Blue Valentine soon (coincidence it is Blue instead of Red Valentine heh). Do you have more posts analyzing movies (other than Disney ones)? I’d be interested in your (or other commentators) thoughts on these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Scissorhands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_in_Translation_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reader_(2008_film) All of them struck Blue Pill me a bit too deeply, haven’t rewatched them… Read more »
I’ve only watched the video so far. A few questions concerning it…. So when Obama whimpered and cried on international television a couple days ago, was he being a “real man”? Did his emotional display accomplish anything? Are leaders who never cried about issues of leadership being “fake” and are they “hiding” their “real selves”? Are our emotions primarily what makes us “real” and does our expression of them validate us most? What is more important, wallowing in emotional masturbation and self pity or getting things done that need doing? Who is more effective, a rational person who relies on… Read more »
I just want to add that women today aren’t really women, unless they had a very traditional upbringing and were sheltered from the popular culture. You might as well understand that when you are dealing with a modern, progressive woman, you are dealing with someone who has been conditioned to see you as an enemy. That makes her an enemy and they should be treated as such. That is the real reason you cannot show them weakness. Would you expect any less from an enemy that they would attack your jugular if you left it open to them?
” Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.” Yin and Yang. I was going to make a statement exactly like this, but Rollo is usually 2 steps ahead of me. So I’ll go with my… Read more »
I think every idealistic blue pill thought we have MUST pass through a red pill filter before becoming seen/heard by others. Ex (someone said similar in an earlier post): Blue Pill Idealism: “Thank you for dinner, honey.” Red Pill filter: “Damn that mean was good! Making me horny for more.” Blue Pill Idealism: “Why didn’t you say good morning to me, honey? That’s disrespectful.” Red Pill Filter: With a grin, slap wife’s ass. “That’s for not saying good morning!” I’m sure we could come up with hundreds of examples of where we can express our blue pill idealism, but do… Read more »
” Who is more effective, a rational person who relies on logic and common sense to initiate corrective and creative action, or someone who is distracted from rationality by being overwhelmed emotionally?”
Robots and computers are 100% rational and unemotional. For a man to excise all emotion from himself is akin to purposely signing up for a voluntary mental disorder.
Don’t feed the trolls, please.
Thank you so so much for this post.
Becoming red pill aware and creating a shell of asshole game and red pillery was killing me on the inside, the more so as I kept internalizing it and believing it.
Yin/Yang. The problem is we’ve been brainwashed and this has done real damage to men’s very psyches. When you are 50 and wake up from this delusion, fuck, it’s is a lot to digest. Balancing this knowledge with compassion for my own journey to self actualization has been really hard. I’m so used to kidding myself and hating myself… Don’t get me wrong, the anger is much less. What I’m now face to face with is my own capitulation in thr face of this mindfuck pre-Red Pill and all my ego investments in the faux identity I maintained to buffer… Read more »
@Blax – I swear I didn’t see your Yin/Yang comment before making mine. Great minds thinking alike and all that…
Now I read Rollo’s text an have more questions… What is morality other than a very malleable contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social dynamics? How can treating others as we would like to be treated guarantee social harmony when others may not want to be treated the same as we would like to be treated? Is the beta quest for “The One” soul mate a result of his charitable “civility” or is it his pursuit of nebulous self indulgent sexual fantasy? I’ve brought this up before here, so here we go again. Why would… Read more »
Your words read like an attempt to discredit the writer using big words to sound smart but overall lack any real depth or sincerity.
The Rational Male is a book that this writer sells on online for a very modest price which has sold thousands of copies and helped many men find success in life with women. You going to tell thousands of men that thank Rollo Tomassi for his help they are all delusional for believing him too, sugartits? The proof is in the pudding and your late to the party.
@NBTM – Morality is our attempt to end the “state of nature” man and beast existed in before civilization. This state of “all against” all is what we are left with if we don’t have morality. If this is foreign to you, try reading Hobbes…
“Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.” So often I hear the “this isn’t the 1950s anymore!” trope and yet these same people will turn around and insist that men adhere to the old set of books/rules irrespective of the fact that the context for those rules/books has fundamentally changed to… Read more »
I would tell you how I feel about what you just told me, but I rather not show weakness to one of my greatest heroes.
Great way to start the year and set the tone. Being a man in 2016 is about being constantly tested—or shit-tested. I used to wonder why girls were so “bitchy” and now I am slowly starting to take that bitchiness as a compliment. Girls only shit-test men they are in some ways attracted to. But attraction is often a mix of intrigue, fear, excitement and hope. it really is like approaching a big angry dog. They growl, they sniff around and eventually if they feel comfortable they submit to the master’s authority. I’m looking at my interactions with the girls… Read more »
Like I discovered earlier this week, there are levels to being awake to this shit.
The 1950s came before the 1970s. Someone was up to something. Some misinformed scientist invented the birth-control pill.
You hear anyone tell you it isn’t the 1950s anymore. Just laugh. Derisively.
@scribblerg I agree and will read Hobbes for more insight. Thanks for the suggestion, I’ve seen that name before. So far I see the general issue as a cooperation-competition conundrum. I do not think there was ever a purely “all against all dynamic. Humans apparently existed anatomically the same as now for over 100,000 years prehistory and would not have survived without siginificant cooperation. Perhaps discomfort was more short lived precivilization. “Nature” certainly would have been more efficient at weeding out misfits and there would have been a lot less surpluses provisioning to fight over. Is referring to anyone as… Read more »
Oh fuck. David DeAngelo was right afterall.
@Glenn, speaking of great minds, I tweeted this this morning:
“Wait your turn there, slick. When your balls finally drop you might get a chance with her.”
One thing to keep in mind, that you didn’t address is that a women value security above all else. Feeling “un-secure” in the right context is exciting. Out of context it’s repulsive and or frightening. When a man faces a struggle that makes him question himself and his power, authority and abilities, she will inevitably question that as well. And when that is in doubt, she will become fearful. In the video, where he talks about the perception of the man knowing more and wielding more power is absolutely true in a love relationship. I’m not talking about a woman… Read more »
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
The Question, ” So often I hear the “this isn’t the 1950s anymore!” trope and yet these same people will turn around and insist that men adhere to the old set of books/rules irrespective of the fact that the context for those rules/books has fundamentally changed to where there are severe consequences for following them, and they will insist on this purely on the basis of untempered idealism. Nevermind the numerous warning signs and that gut feeling telling you to get out. Reality says “divorce,” but the ideal says “love conquers all” or “if you love each other you’ll do… Read more »
@NBTM, no you’re a troll because all of your “questions” have been addressed in multiple comment threads as well as many prior posts. What you have a problem with is reconciling your MGTOW ego-investments with the uncomfortable truths of the answers to your questions. Thus you keep coming back to re-ask them in the hopes of untangling the mess the MGTOW sphere has convinced you of. That’s one reason Niko has fallen from grace with that sphere, he proposes difficult concepts and asks questions that prompt guys like you back into your circular logic loop that only has one solution… Read more »
“What’s happened is not that women don’t have the capacity to be good, but that their goodness is no longer valued in society.”
Society is the business of women.
@Kitten, women’s security needs are rooted in Hypergamous doubt about optimization. Is he really the best I can do? Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks – sexual breeding optimization vs. provisioning and parental investment optimization. The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies: For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own. In mens’ compromising or abandoning their sexual strategy to accommodate women’s they instill that insecurity and doubt. Women dualistic sexual strategy is a recipe for insecurity. Short term Alpha fucks tingles generated by excitement, anxiety, urgency uncertainty and danger conflicts with long term Beta… Read more »
“Women dualistic sexual strategy is a recipe for insecurity. Short term Alpha fucks tingles generated by excitement, anxiety, urgency uncertainty and danger conflicts with long term Beta bucks comfort, rapport, certainty, and predictability.” I don’t disagree. In a sexual context the insecurity is thrilling. In dating, it’s exciting. And in longer term relationships, uncertainty is still important. Anything else is boring. “The very essence of romance is uncertainty.” Oscar Wilde. I may not have been clear. I don’t think it is the responsibility of the man to alleviate all a woman’s insecurities or un-securities. I do believe women have a… Read more »
“But the truth is women can royally suck sometimes and you men should totally keep your valuable abilities we wont acknowledge to yourselves while we get older and more full of shit.”
“You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be.”
Why men can and should cut loose and play like a kid.
Or have some kind of activity that is theirs in some way.
Seriously though I can hear what you are saying. But that’s not how men are raised. And if it was, you’d never have a man before 30.
Hi Yollo Yes, I realize that. Isn’t that what all this inquiry and critical thinking is about though? Finding the truth despite how we were raised? And facing them even if they are uncomfortable, sometimes even ugly? I’m aware women can “royally suck sometimes.” And I’m not saying that from an outside perspective, I’m saying that from the perspective of someone who tries very hard to live in accordance with my values and to be honest with myself and fair and there are still times I am like “Man I suck!” But thankfully there are more times, when I am… Read more »
@Kitten – First off, welcome. We enjoy women who are thoughtful and do not denigrate men here. I think you missed something crucial though in Rollo’s response to you, let me take a whack at it. The conundrum posed for men by women’s dualistic mating strategies is that in Alpha Fucks selection, the things that cause women insecurity are not the things that cause them insecurity in Beta Bucks selection. You reduce these negative states to just as loss of confidence or self-loathing, and miss the broader range of conflicting goals women are solving for. Example, look up the thread… Read more »
Hi @Scribblerg, Thank you for explaining more. I realize there is a lot I may miss because there is a lot I have not yet read and there seem to be a lot of phases and ideas that are new to me. I did read this comment: Example, look up the thread to Bookooball’s quote. He played the Alpha selection game, but when the women gets pregnant,, she turns on him and flees across the country because he didn’t qualify as a provider. It wasn’t that he was insecure or self loathing, it was that his woman “changed lanes” due… Read more »
You are right in the sense that she demonized me to justify her guilt, but you are wrong because she is in fact stealing my offspring. Whether or not it’s intentional is another story.
Moreover, justifying a woman’s decision to flee because he won’t conform to whatever she wants him to be at the time, for whatever reason… is solipism in its purest form. This is why that, even while you are trying, you still shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
Kitten Holiday @KittenHoliday 7 hours ago
@Rollo Tomassi @man_private @SexyScience1 I don’t click when u throw links. The rest of us are engaging in discussion. Feel free to join us.
Something I noticed.
One thing to keep in mind, that you didn’t address is that a women value security above all else. Feeling “un-secure” in the right context is exciting.
You contradicted yourself. Sometimes they value tingles, sometimes security. It’s called AFBB.
I said the same thing you did. I used the word exciting. You used tingles.
@Rollo via @NBTM,
The problem with some of the MGTOW brothers is that they have their Red Pill sunglasses on instead of their eyeglasses..
It’s simple cognitive dissonance, when they should just put the damn glasses on and keep them on lest they keep running into their metaphorical plate glass wall of sophistry.
Maintain frame and don’t doubt the game.
I’m MGTOW and I trust in the Lord, the Red Pill and what I see.
And with all equanimity I choose to either speak to the stones – or step on them.
Time out for trippin’.
They are not the same.
Tingles are the catalyst to a woman’s emotional frame and fulcrum for her dating strategy…unlike “excitement”, which can be transient.
Substitute “mating” for dating….
Brilliant Rollo! I feel the same way actorseancory expressed. Perfect attitude reminder! Happy New Year!!
And here is some click bait, showing again the eternal truth, that no matter how hawt a bitch is in her forties, she was still n-times hotter in her twenties.All of these bitches I would have pounded in their twenties. Now, in their forties, maybe half of them.
you said “above all else”, and clearly you haven’t bothered to read much of Rollo’s 500 posts. I’m putting you on scroll.
Sun Wukong “when your balls finally drop…” Right …when you realize you’re on your own and game is as much a sexual survival strategy and it is a mating strategy then Red Pill truths become more obvious. @Rollo bellum omnium contra omnes could also be interpreted as every man for himself… I tried a simple experiment. A group tried undermining and sabotaging an event I recently put on. Fewer people came but I made money and had a great crowd and great reviews. A while later I met the perpetrators. They couldn’t look me in the eye. I greeted everyone… Read more »
@KittenHoliday I think ScribblerG makes a good point here. It’s a pretty natural mistake to make – women seem to sublimate the dualistic nature of their strategy, and its results, pretty studiously so even when someone like you knows about the dynamic a few things slip awareness. See, you’re giving us a pretty straightforward ‘just try not to telegraph xyz to your woman since that will tend to trigger her anxiety limbically’ sort of message. Which is true so far as it goes. But if that’s all that was at play here the lesson would be easy. But it’s not… Read more »
Absolutely agree with everything you said and am glad I got your comment by email so I can file it to read it again. I’m sure I don’t “get” all of it and will understand it differently as I learn more, but for what it’s worth right now, it made a lot of sense to me. Thank you. As for your comment ” indicate two entirely different sorts of characters to her in order to maintain both her attraction and her arousal.” I agree with that. My comments were in response to Rollo’s story about losing an important woman in… Read more »
@ kitten – I’d love to hear your take on Rollo’s Solipsism series;
I have read them before. They were recommended to me just the other day actually. I will comment there in the next few days as I will need to read them again to comment.
I could barely listen to Niko. I tuned away from him and the entire MGTWO BS parade a while ago and that’s when my real RP journey began. Listen to him, “drop the mask” and talk about a man within a man who’s scared to be feminine, living n quiet desperation. This “inner man” is male false consciousness brought on by the FI and Blue Pill world. It’s a hectoring weakness and softness that we cultivate to protect us from reality, we hide in it to justify our failures and giving up, and to tell us that the world is… Read more »
@Rollo In your context you are correct about me “having a problem reconciling MGTOW” ego investments. However (and you may not believe this, it is true for whatever it’s worth) those investments are made without any influence from the Internet sphere. Honestly, the only site I’ve researched and participated on is yours. Reviews of any others have been extremely brief and visited because they were referenced here. I’ve found them all too stupid for my time. I’m not an MGTOW subscriber as you suspect. Am I reconciling MGTOW ego investments or am I learning to accept my autonomy? The reason… Read more »
@Kitten – Hold your horses, darling, you are assuming a ton about BooKooball – and hey dude, you should weigh in with more details. But we don’t know he only reassured her, we don’t know what the material situation was or how they could have fared together, yet you assume he was not ready to pull his weight as a Dad and this JUSTIFIES her bailing. Again with your female hypoagency, it’s a theme with you. Even worse are the sociological aspects of it. Women are supposed “strong and independent”, right? They “don’t need no man”, at least this is… Read more »
You hit the nail on the head. Suddenly my $70k per year and 1200 square foot home in a gated community isn’t good enough anymore… now it must include: Her terms, her timeframe, as she defines it.
@NBTM – I get it, you can’t get laid, it sucks. But back here in realsville, well, you’ve really stepped in it now. Reducing what Rollo presents here to “romantic idealism”? What the fuck are you talking about? You are completely disengaged from the actual conversation going on. It would be much better described as anti-romantic realism, fucknutz. Troll indeed, don’t you have a video game to go play? And what the fuck are you doing here anyway? It’s all bullshit and we are the trolls, fine, fuck off then. Really – nobody here wants what you have, which equals… Read more »
In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything? Long time reader, first time commenter. I’m a musician, and this reminds me of my approach to music. I heard in an interview that Rollo was a musician in L.A. when he was younger, and he said he did it… Read more »
@Rollo thanks for another brilliant post.I found this site 3months ago and have read all oyear one and all underline references.As my outlook changes the relationship with my wife is improving relatively.
@kitten being good and doing good are two different things hence the saying “no good do gooders”
So these newlyweds decided to live off love for awhile the man comes home to find his wife sliding down the banister He asked her why she replied I am warming up your dinner.
NBTM Does have a point though. This whole discussion is framed around the idea of finding a mate, and then tying that in with romantic ideals about love and everlasting commitment. I doubt humans actually evolved to be romantics. They evolved to live in tribal societies, where people had sex as they pleased and tried to collectively survive. I doubt any man had any great certainty or care who the father of children were. They developed systems for taking care of the unit. Since there was no real mating selection process, males grew larger penises as this gave them a… Read more »
@scribblerg Ha Ha ! LOL I just “got laid” and it happens several times a week. You guys are frustrated. We all are, or have been. That’s what this is all about. Sexual frustration and the preceived threats of feminist power, fear of loneliness, and regrets. Some of what you’ve written here is good, some not, same for Rollo and all of us. There’s no sense in getting upset about any of it unless you’re willing to consider perspectives other than your own and those you subscribe to, seeking approval. Maybe I’m a “troll” visiting a cave of “trolls”, but… Read more »
@Informationjunkyblahblahblah – Citations please, where the fuck does Rollo actually say “he idea of finding a mate, and then tying that in with romantic ideals about love and everlasting commitment”. Answer: Nowhere, and you’ve clearly not read much of what he’s said or you’d never say that.
As well, your characterization of primitive man are by no means comprehensive or dominant. But hey, keep up the fantasyworld, it justifies all your and and you do (or better said, all you are not and all you won’t do). Run along now, son, be NBTM’s first blog fan…
You should read CAPTURED BY THE INDIANS 15first hand accounts.This you will find very informative as to the mating selection process as well as many other ways of tribal life.
Angus, Welcome. ( I got a few minutes to kill before turning in for the night, so I’ll ” blah, blah ) I too never played for chicks, but chicks came ( he he ). As a child I sat in the floor as my dad wailed away on his battered Les Paul. He exposed me to all of the 50’s guitarists before I ever got to see them on television. Rock, Blues, Jazz, Country ( born in Va. ) and STAX fueled R&B. He palyed at least 3 hours a day after work and I learned everything from him.… Read more »
@scribblerg Whatever dude.. I’m sure they’ll put how many women you screwed on your tombstone and children 1000 years from now will know your name.
@Infodouche – So, you don’t like pussy then? Lol, fuck off now, child. Men are speaking.
@scribblerg, My dick is bigger than yours. You wanna measure? What relevance does your ad hominem attacks have to the discussion? You just want to silence people with a dissenting viewpoint.
@scribblerg – dude you got a lot of intelligence but you don’t seem to have a very good handle on the scope of the limits of what you can accurately know. For instance you assume an awful lot about people’s character that you couldn’t possibly know. I think you just might be suffering from the dreaded hyper-agency. Hyper-scribbler you are! I bet the fiction you said you are working on is good though – because you have an expansive imagination – and that’s a compliment, but you are also often behaving post-wise like a prick, as you claimed was working… Read more »
@Wild – I have no zero tolerance for MGTOW chodes spraying nonsense. They have many sites where they can spew their delusional horseshit, I just don’t want to see it here. Neither NBTM nor InfoChode say anything worth reading. Period. Dot. End of sentence. And guess what, pal, I’m not trying to “make it work” for you. I’m seriously sick of these assholes.
@Wild – And your ideas are even less grounded and just as absurd. The real problem with the internet is that it lets sub-par intellects preen about sophistic horseshit as though it’s wisdom and nobody will stop them.
But please, show me and Rollo up. Start the “Egalitarian Mental Masturbation and Circular Reaoning Society” site and see how many folks you can attract. You’ll fall flat on your fucking face and nobody will bother as your ideas are irrelevant crap.
I have spent hours reading your articles as i have discovered your writings recentley and im a 20 year guy. Reading this is all very depressing. Sometimes when im just relaxing, i start to think about the AF/BB dynamic and i cant stop. I think about the real life examples i’ve seen as well and my mind cant help but to link what i’m seeing back to your articles.
I realise i am slipping into depression but even then, the truth of what women are aroused by will not change that.
Any advice/counseling would be much appreciated
@ Blaximus Awesome that you met Eddie Hazel. Super Stupid is one of my favorite songs, and of course the solo on Maggot Brain. Hendrix was my hero growing up. Can’t even begin to talk about how much his music affected my life. First Strat I owned was an Olympic white with a maple neck, just like the Woodstock Strat. Now I build my own, and I’m working on building up business doing guitar and bass repairs and customization. Still play a lot and wonder if my Strat that I built and that old Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face and Italian… Read more »
I accept the burden of performance, but now understanding Hypergamy, the non existence of relational equity, women’s innate solipsism and lack of empathy, I now insist that any woman that wants to be associated with me performs her own feminine duties, I do not offer or expect unconditional love. I have a 13 year old son, at 48 I have no wish for more children and knowing what I do now marriage is totally out of the question. I now view women as an accessory to my life and not the focus of it, most of the time I USE… Read more »
@scribblerg – categorizing as mgtow is just a cop-out. Rollo hasn’t properly addressed NBTM’s line of thought as of yet. I have also been puzzled by Rollo’s avoidance of taking up some issues. I haven’t really been seeing the avoidance in terms of how NBTM is coloring it (but who knows maybe NBTM is reading Rollo accurately) – and I have to admit that I don’t really know what the source of the avoidance is, so you got me. I suspect Rollo doesn’t see human experience described by any other perspective, other than redpill, as worthwhile. If this suspicion is… Read more »
@Wild Man The problem you seem to have with the Red Pill itself is that it is pragmatic truth and guidance for men who make themselves their own mental point of origin. Or it is nothing. The idea of men and women as “atomized procreation value” isn’t meant to define people in the superficial ways you hear people talk of themselves in modern television programs(in long-winded, self-serving “suggestions” of how much worth they supposedly have as people). It is meant to inform people of what they actually happen to be along with any other sort of learned, conditioned, horseshit that… Read more »
@Kitten Holiday “So, while it may not seem “fair” or right and it may make men angry, one suggestion would be to continue to nurture communities like this, where men learn about masculinity, femininity, human nature.” I think you’re underestimating the anger. Men are more likely to doubt themselves these days because we have failing institutions, wages that have stagnated for a generation, rising employment precariousness, a falling male labor participation rate, education which costs half as much as a mortgage and very often doesn’t lead to employment, and so on. Between neoliberal economics and feminism, what you basically have… Read more »
Wild, I have a friend who is an amazing artist, in all disciplines. He can paint, sculpt, line draw, design. etc. For years a collective of his friends has tried to get his stuff into the light. The best quote was from a woman dealer, who bluntly put it, “you are a renaissance man, you do everything and you do it impeccably. I cannot sell you because you are all around the block. Now look at Bateman, Him I can sell, for everyone knows, without having to look at the signature, that this is a Bateman. Chose a discipline, narrow… Read more »
@Wild Man, as I stated in the last thread, I gave up on bothering with your attempts to wedge some metaphysical rationalizing of egalitarianism into a Red Pill box. I and many other commenters here gave you more than the attention you were seeking in that navel gazing exercise. I’m no longer going to hold your hand about your deliberate intellectual lethargy, because you don’t want an answer to your bullet pointed and articled lists that only serve your religious leanings. That said, and once again, you ignore the countless response I and others have made in addressing NBTM over… Read more »
If we loose a desire for romantic idealism what do we really loose other than a useless misguiding delusion? If we fear that abandoning romantic idealisim will devalue our lives, then aren’t we a slave to it? @NBTM, you are conflating “romantic” with “idealism”. Go downtown tomorrow. Walk around and look at the cars, the buildings, the art museum. Put your digital music on on your headphones, listen to the greatest song you think ever existed. Type a few comments on your computer. Look up pictures of Vegas or Dubai. That is just a small sampling of what you lose… Read more »
This post makes a lot of sense. Applying this to myself, I think what’s in order is reconnecting with whatever idealism I have but which isn’t tied to somehow qualifying for the mythical wife who was supposed to appear on the stage of my life at some point if I just got my life in order. But that’s the issue: It seems like you’re groomed your whole life to be a provider if you were as clueless about this stuff I was. If you totally bought into the blue pill for most of your adult life as I did, you… Read more »
Oh lawdy, NBTM is whining about idealism again? Dude, do you ever get bored of that shit or do you just have a thing for obsessive repetition of pointless discussions?
Rollo…If you decide to write a third book, I would highly recommend this post be Chapter 1…or the entire theme of the book. You’ve already published your “wake up” work, as well as your proactive guidance manual, both of which serve a purpose in my view. The first obviously awakens the BPer up to reality. The second provides insight on what to expect from women while operating inside the Matrix. A third book, quite honestly, should focus on how, as men, we can choose to best maintain this Red Pill balance you’ve explained (or pointed out from exceptional comments) in… Read more »
@Rollo As incisive as ever! Hugely relevant to my current circumstances, in which a woman I know, recently declared her desire for me … and then backed-off as soon as she perceived that I was ‘a good person’ (her words!). I suspect in her mind that ‘good’ equals ‘weak’, and so I could no longer, in her mind, be ‘strong’ and therefore represent the prospect of danger and thrill-seeking she is searching for as an alternative to her staid LOTR to whom she remains attached ( I have come to appreciate that there is no such thing as an unattached… Read more »
Breaking form from my lurking to weigh in. Holy shit Rollo, white hot conversation. . . this is great. @Divided Perhaps you could consider (understanding the climate of the sexual marketplace as you so well understand & articulate) that the mythical wife that does not appear is a blessing. My personal experience is such that I had the love of my life, and as a result of my blue pill conditioning it ruined my marriage and eroded my identity. I became emotionally devastated with a huge financial toll. And if not for family, almost ended my life. Consider yourself lucky.… Read more »
@Yollo – thanks for the feedback. I do have some thoughts on your comments though: 1) “The problem you seem to have with the Red Pill itself is that it is pragmatic truth and guidance for men who make themselves their own mental point of origin. Or it is nothing.” But that is precisely it, I do make myself my own mental point of origin. I always have too…. so you are not quite right about this, I can attest that you can very well be subject to bluepill within a dynamic of putting yourself as your own MPO, and… Read more »
@Rollo – “That is just a small sampling of what you lose when you remove men’s idealism. Yes, misguided, feminine deluded, feminine manipulated, Blue Pill idealism is a liability that men must overcome or they suffer the consequences, but we lose so much more if we remove that idealism entirely.” That is just so binary you know it’s just plain wrong without even having to thin about it too much. Alot of shit doesn’t neatly fit within redpill Rollo. If you not smart enough to think of the contra-indicators of defining our techno world primarily in terms of a bluepill… Read more »
@Rollo – ” I gave up on bothering with your attempts to wedge some metaphysical rationalizing of egalitarianism into a Red Pill box.” So there it finally is then – the redpill box. It is condescending as fuck to project your avoidance in de-marking your theoretical boundaries of that box, on me, as weak-minded. Your methods are beginning to point to you as treating this redpill thing as an ideology. You know you have repeatedly avoided answering my questions around the scope of your inquiry (the answers for which are not found in any of the links you provide). So… Read more »
In case some commenters missed it: Kitten had a really great comment regarding Shit-Tests over at IllimitableMen: http://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/#comment-8528
I wish she had more on that level of insight.
@ info junkie-I would add to your comment that some females have been damaged in the worst way, by their fathers. Then an unhealthy marriage/LTR, equals years of destruction.
My opinion is that after half a lifetime of unhealthy relations they have evolved w/in themselves to recognize/respond only to this type of male.
“Blue Pill Idealism: “Why didn’t you say good morning to me, honey? That’s disrespectful.” Red Pill Filter: With a grin, slap wife’s ass. “That’s for not saying good morning!”” While I get the general thought being expressed by handling things differently now that we are red pill aware. What this also implies to me is that when men are offended they should hide it and put on a smile and just get over it when relating to women. The irony is that when a similar thing is done by a fellow man to upset another man they won’t think twice… Read more »
@WildMan: As I said last thread I think you are a narcisist (like me). You want the attention and don’t bother to think for yourself but want to further your insight only by means of heated discussion. That is tiresome, especially if your opposing view isn’t very spectacular.
Understanding the RedPill and getting rid of your BluePill thinking is your job, not Rollos.
@talprofs: I find it funny that a woman that is apparently married (my interpretation of your LOTR comment), thinks you are a “good person” even though you were apparently willing to enable her straying.
Just figured the woman would consider such a guy a “bad boy” more or less inherently, but I guess that is just me still being idealistic about woman nature.
Not passing my own moral stance, we had a discussion several thread backs about the morality or amorality of banging married women, with Andy and others, using military men serving abroad as one of the examples.
@lh – no on the narcissism. It’s crazy you would characterize me as not thinking for myself. How could I be concerned about the boundaries/limits of redpill perspective, and interface of redpill perspective with other perspectives if I wasn’t thinking for myself? I didn’t make these discussions heated (until today), others did prior, and that circumstance is tiresome (I am heated now – I’m ticked – I’ve invested some time and energy on this stuff and expected more rigor, and can see now I’m not going to get it here). I’m redpill as fuck. If women aren’t worthy, as in… Read more »