The Red Pill Balance

Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.

Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.

So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.

Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):


A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.

What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.

In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?

Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.

We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”

Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.

Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.

It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”

No Quarter Given

In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to

When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.

However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.

The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.

And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.

That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.

At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.

Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.

On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.

It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.

By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.

He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.

Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.

No Quarter Expected

I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.

Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.

The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.

Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.

There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.

It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.

Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.

The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?

The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.

It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”

It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.

So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.

I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.

Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.

Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.

What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.

That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……

I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.

The Red Pill Balance

Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.

KFG had a comment to this point:

If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.

This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.

Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.

Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.



  1. Burden of performance vs performancelessness that is the choice.

    We are born to be leaders, so when we are not living up to that, then we must be reviled and replaced. The troops want and must have a Patton or Wellington to take them into battle.

  2. “You do yourself no favors in killing your idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be.”

    I appreciate you concluding with this sentiment. Hope is in short supply these days. Striving for our ideals within the current environment is possible. Stay pragmatic, with no denial or delusions, and ideals can be achieved. They may just take a form not yet considered by most. Its out there. Thanks, Rollo.

  3. Thanks for the post. Today I was blindsided, Ironically. Met the girl almost a year ago. She stepped into my frame after I passed her shit tests and was even somewhat red pill in regards to knowing I can be a bit of an asshole. All was well, until she got pregnant. Now she has been desperately trying to pigeonhole me into beta bucks. The past week she’s been bombarding me with bitchmode, all the while I’ve been telling her I’m here and it’ll be ok. Just relax. Well, she’ll no longer have any of it. She told me she doesn’t respect me as a man and she is moving back home across the country. Quite a shame. My hands are tied.

  4. @ Rollo:

    “Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.”

    How does one reconcile this with the truth that one cannot realize Blue Pill relationship paradigms/ideals in a Red Pill world? In other words, you’ve discussed, rightly I think, that you cannot achieve all the Blue Pill ideals we all know about in a Red Pill context.


  5. @Rollo

    …Well. Now I have a MUCH better reason for why I gotta lift and why I gotta be cold. Those things signal survival, and that’s what women idealize. But I gotta be kind and gentle yet strong enough to protect those things in myself. Or else she’ll ultimately eat me alive with that shit I wish I could just shove a device up her asshole and control her with.

  6. There is a really annoying asymmetry when large groups of guys and girls who kinda know each other get together. If a girl likes a guy, it’s a big issue. If a guy likes a girl, it’s no big deal.

    I noticed this in a bar a few weeks ago. Towards the end of the night I was manhandled into exchanging #s with a girl. Now I’m not Brad Pitt but not Quasimodo either. This girl was borderline obese. What makes her think she can just come and get her people and my people. There is no way I (or most men) would just go up to the hottest girl in the club w/o any IOIs and just assume I could talk to her and her people and arrange a date. Women are bloody delusional.

  7. @Rollo

    Hey so let me ask you a real question for once.

    Why do short men exist?

    My answer: So taller men look stronger by comparison, thus, in the unfortunate instance that men are unable to get a woman to fuck them by talking to them, the tallest one will still always get to mate.


  8. “Thoughts?”

    Personally, I don’t put those idealizations on myself or other people anymore. I realize that I appreciate people much more now than I ever did when they were continually disappointing me. I’m way more empathetic than I have ever been. Internally I had this idealized version of contentment that I was striving for and I finally realized it doesn’t exist. Never going to happen. Now I’m much happier. lol. It’s that same cosmic mind-fuck over and over again.

  9. I too play many roles in the male life I lead today:

    Professional vagrant.

    Actually, that’s it.

  10. @Deti, The mistake is to believe that men’s idealism is inherently Beta or Blue Pill. The problem is that it can be turned (like the concept of Honor) to serve the purposes of the FI and relatively easy.

    What Divided Line relates about his ONEitis is an example of this, but because he was conditioned to direct that idealism towards Blue Pill goals that idealism seems associated with being Blue Pill/Feminine serving.

    In a Blue Pill context men’s idealism is very Pollyanna, and yes, very much a weakness, but that doesn’t discount male idealism as being a strength in a Red Pill aware context.

  11. @Scray had a great comment in the last thread about how he’s not afraid to talk to a girl about weaknesses or difficulties he’s facing. Just do it with a smirk and it can actually serve as a great catalyst for connection.

    It was a good thing for me to hear, now. I’ve spent a while biting the bullet with game and redpill ideas, but at some point of mastery the technical rules give way to intuition, a ‘just being’ redpill or alpha which is much more relaxed and effortless. It’s probably been a solid year since I’ve told anyone offline about any struggle I’m going through. Just being a total hardass about it. Always keeping up a fun, cocky demeanor.

    And ya know? It works well when I’m actually up. And it’s better than being negative in the in-between times, and your actual state can be elevated by forcing positivity upon yourself. It’s not bad.

    But I lost something in the process – a sort of completeness or authenticity – that would show through when I was in a negative state still trying to be cocky and upbeat. People pick up on this shit.

    Some months ago I overheard some girl venting to another girl about me – “I hate cocky Forge! Why can’t he just be himself!” I usually get along with her quite well, but I had tried to be fun with her when I was actually having a shitty time with things. So I stopped doing that. If I was down I just wouldn’t say much – just be friendly, keep it to that.

    Now? I have fun with people when I feel like it, I flirt/sexualize with a girl when I feel like it, when I don’t feel like interacting much I don’t. It’s a lot easier. But I have a block when it comes to expressing negative states or circumstances. Like I’m afraid to open up, or I fear people won’t care. Even though whenever I have people have been intensely interested for the most part, probably bc I rarely do lol.

    In MM parlance, I’ve got A(ttraction)1-3 down pat, often choke on the open in pickup circumstances, and I have a sticking point at C(omfort). Girls who know me and are attracted qualify themselves heavily and seem reluctant to be too overt with me; basically I seem so aloof and perfect to them they’re intimidated and don’t think they have a chance. So when I do show even a hint of openness with them they almost dissolve. Ha. Weird.

    I’m starting to feel that girls are as lost and confused about how to attract a man as most men are confused about how to attract a woman these days. They’re attracted to me and don’t know if they can get me, and they don’t even know how to signal interest, to generate my interest, to try.

    (HB8-10 just count on their looks, and for them that’s all that’s needed of course.)

    This is getting a bit meandering, but I think it ties in with the OP well. Directing your idealism in a context where it can survive is kinda the masterclass of masculinity, and it’s one of the central paradoxes of the ‘just getting it’ mindset. Women want a man who’s about something. That takes idealism. But the ways we’re tending to direct our ideals these days ties us in knots. And new ideals are individual, they aren’t one-size-fits-all like some of the basics can be. You can’t just teach someone new ideals, they need to be discovered.

    kfg has asked us all here a few times – what was it you wanted to do as a lad? I think that’s a very pertinent question. We often lose sight of that in the flurry of complex logistics – here and everywhere. We listen to the whispers of ego and social obligation, are seduced by false tales we use to sublimate the evidence of our senses. Who told/i> me that I should want marriage? A house? A high-status job? Certainly wasn’t the evidence of my own senses.

    I’ve been trying, the past two years, to feed myself on a steady diet of novel experiences, undertaken without any notion as to how I will like them, to see what I actually like. I’m going to keep doing that. Not just with the big things – every day I try to observe if I actually like something or if I just expect to, or vice-versa. MSimon always said the hardest thing is just to pay attention. Perhaps that’s what he meant.

    I know a lot more about myself than I did at the start of the year. But I’ve not hit a run yet. Time to keep digging.

    Your mental point of origin is, at its center, the shape of your preferences and ideals. Someone last thread said they were having a hard time developing their own MPO. Well, that’s how. Have at it.

  12. Very good audio by Niko. I found it very interesting that his mother saw the father crying, but simply left unnoticed (and only told the son at a later date).

    At the end of the audio it also brought to my mind the movie Saving Private Ryan, culminating with that ending.

    I think there are pros and cons to both polarities of Red Pill (Light side or Dark side emphasizing Dark Triad traits). The Dark side isn’t necessarily more successful. Depends on the goals and despite AWALT, should also depend on the women.

    There are different types of Alpha as Rollo discusses elsewhere, and even if Dark side gives you a higher notch count, there are other (arguably more) important things in life.

    Alpha gets the best. The best out of others, and that doesn’t just have to be sexual. And more importantly, out of himself.
    The burden of performance (like the rest of RP knowledge) is also a blessing and a curse.

    Note this doesn’t mean the Light side is supposed to be Beta with a side of Alpha. Red Pill is apparently and empirically strictly better than Blue Pill in terms of sexual strategy, unless you have some corner-case goal, like getting rid of a women without breaking up with her.

  13. @Yollo, you ever been to the Philippines? I have. I was easily the tallest guy wherever I went, and I think you probably have an idea about how the women there are ‘enthusiastic’ about tall American visitors.

    I’m just under 6 feet tall, but imagine what the intersexual social conditions were like in the Philippines before the Spanish arrived and every native man averaged 5′ 5″. The 5′ 7″ Filipino probably got more attention, but he was just one of a handful of guys above the average. Most of the women were likely around 5′ 2″, maybe shorter.

    So for the 5′ 5″ Filipino life was good, a bit better for the 5′ 7″ Filipino in that environmental state. Now imagine what it was like for the first Filipinas to see a Spanish man who stood just 5′ 9″.

    A man’s height may be an evolved indicator of fitness, but remember, that height is on a sliding scale depending on social environment and how tall an individual woman is. To a 4′ 10″ woman the 5′ 7″ man is a giant.

  14. Joey g: “Women are bloody delusional.”

    Welcome to the SMV circa 2016. Like a week back I posted a video of a good looking guy approaching an Hb4 and chatting, then asking her out. She declined. He walked away and got into a black Lambo, and she immediately walked up to the door and asked, “Can I get in?”

    Lol holy shit. Think about the entitlement there for a few seconds.

  15. I don’t buy the fact that women are innately just waiting for a man to show weakness so she can betray him. I think western women have been conditioned by feminists since birth to destroy men when given the opportunity. I have my doubts feminism will defeated through political reforms. Most likely it will collapse like the soviet system, as they are basically unsustainable/unnatural and contrary to has worked in society for thousands of years.

  16. @Rollo: I had it on my mind because my wife discussed with me some movies she hadn’t seen and among the ones listed was Saving Private Ryan. I told her it was a very good movie but that she probably wouldn’t enjoy it too much.

    I want to check Blue Valentine soon (coincidence it is Blue instead of Red Valentine heh).

    Do you have more posts analyzing movies (other than Disney ones)?

    I’d be interested in your (or other commentators) thoughts on these:
    All of them struck Blue Pill me a bit too deeply, haven’t rewatched them since awaking to Red Pill.

    I’ve seen this one after
    and it still struck me.

    I’m not sure why these movies had such a strong impact on me and would like to understand it. Maybe I’m just a pansy!

    On the other hand, I’ve seen this one:
    and I believe I understand why it is so depressing for a man to watch it.

  17. I’ve only watched the video so far. A few questions concerning it….

    So when Obama whimpered and cried on international television a couple days ago, was he being a “real man”? Did his emotional display accomplish anything?

    Are leaders who never cried about issues of leadership being “fake” and are they “hiding” their “real selves”?

    Are our emotions primarily what makes us “real” and does our expression of them validate us most?

    What is more important, wallowing in emotional masturbation and self pity or getting things done that need doing?

    Who is more effective, a rational person who relies on logic and common sense to initiate corrective and creative action, or someone who is distracted from rationality by being overwhelmed emotionally?

    Helpless infants are the most emotionally demonstrative of all humans. Should we all retrogress to a more helpless state of mind to be more “real”?

    Are some men seeking universal approval to indulge in a more helplessness order to avoid the responsibilities and challenges of being mature adults?

    Why would emotions be more important than logic and rationality to any man and why would anyone claim or even insinuate that emotional demonstrations make a man more “real” than a man’s ability to put his emotions aside?

    More after I read Rollo’s text.

  18. ” Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.”

    Yin and Yang.

    I was going to make a statement exactly like this, but Rollo is usually 2 steps ahead of me. So I’ll go with my 2nd choice of wordage.

    Concepts like ” Justice ” and ” Honesty ” are absolutely ones that should be pursued and practiced by men. It’s not necessarily a matter of whether of not there will be a ” Payoff ” for these things. Expecting recognition for being a forthright and honest person diminishes the original intent, which is for men to build stronger characters that they can appreciate and recognize within themselves. Doesn’t matter what others think, or if it does you are setting yourself up to become vulnerable to the whims and beliefs of others.

    Wearing a mask of masculinity is an absolute non-starter. I’m not a fan of ” fake it till you make it ” per se. There will be some aspects of your personality that will not serve you well, as a male, if you put them on constant display. There’s no need to banish these aspects of who you are, but adjustments can be made.

    A man must build upon himself. Red Pill awareness has never been strictly about women. Utilize the concepts to your advantage on your journey to better understanding of yourself. Always You First.

    Niko’s video was very interesting. I don’t fully agree with the idea of men struggling with so many ” fears “, but I don’t discount it either. Irrational fear is something to be conquered, or at a minimum contained and controlled. How many times in your life have you ” worst fears ” ever come to fruition? Men aren’t made of stone, but men are the movers and shakers on this planet. That’s a hell of a responsibility. At the very minimum you are the mover and shaker in your own reality. There is no acceptable way around that. Niko alluded to men’s being taken more seriously just by virtue of being male ( voice, stature, etc. ) and that is exactly how it should be.

    Short of natural disasters, the discomfort and problems we all face as men are all Man Made. Every one of them. So, where would a solution lie? Pro Tip: Not with women. A large part of the solution to the issues we face lies right in our heads. In the end, women are not truly a match for us adversarialy without our consent and help. Always be aware of how unbridled idealism plays into the hands of those who would use it for gain against you, and adjust accordingly.

    Or, in the words of Ice Cube – ” check yourself before you wreck yourself “.

  19. I think every idealistic blue pill thought we have MUST pass through a red pill filter before becoming seen/heard by others.

    Ex (someone said similar in an earlier post):
    Blue Pill Idealism: “Thank you for dinner, honey.”
    Red Pill filter: “Damn that mean was good! Making me horny for more.”

    Blue Pill Idealism: “Why didn’t you say good morning to me, honey? That’s disrespectful.”
    Red Pill Filter: With a grin, slap wife’s ass. “That’s for not saying good morning!”

    I’m sure we could come up with hundreds of examples of where we can express our blue pill idealism, but do so in a red pill way that doesn’t weaken our image.

    Sure, not having women live up to our ideals is disappointing, but doing this switch (before women see it, and before the emotional parts of our brains get butthurt) robs the disappointment of its power.

  20. ” Who is more effective, a rational person who relies on logic and common sense to initiate corrective and creative action, or someone who is distracted from rationality by being overwhelmed emotionally?”

    Robots and computers are 100% rational and unemotional. For a man to excise all emotion from himself is akin to purposely signing up for a voluntary mental disorder.


  21. I just want to add that women today aren’t really women, unless they had a very traditional upbringing and were sheltered from the popular culture. You might as well understand that when you are dealing with a modern, progressive woman, you are dealing with someone who has been conditioned to see you as an enemy. That makes her an enemy and they should be treated as such. That is the real reason you cannot show them weakness. Would you expect any less from an enemy that they would attack your jugular if you left it open to them?

  22. Thank you so so much for this post.

    Becoming red pill aware and creating a shell of asshole game and red pillery was killing me on the inside, the more so as I kept internalizing it and believing it.

  23. Yin/Yang. The problem is we’ve been brainwashed and this has done real damage to men’s very psyches. When you are 50 and wake up from this delusion, fuck, it’s is a lot to digest. Balancing this knowledge with compassion for my own journey to self actualization has been really hard. I’m so used to kidding myself and hating myself…

    Don’t get me wrong, the anger is much less. What I’m now face to face with is my own capitulation in thr face of this mindfuck pre-Red Pill and all my ego investments in the faux identity I maintained to buffer all this shit. It’s like I was conditioned to lower my sights for myself, whew. I’m letting go of it all and rebuilding, but am very much a work in progress.

    Most surprising? I have moments of real peace with it all sometimes now. It’s like the cognitive dissonance imposed upon me was a nonstop source of angst, and now that’s removed. What’s left is my cynicism and hopelessness but it is receding and is replaced at times with a calm joyfulness. I also have real compassion for women at times now. I mentioned how when I was looking at Emily’s Google+ page and saw this young girl at war with herself and how she was completely unstable due to the fucked up society we lived in, and I was overcome with a paternal feeling of wanting to sort her out and help her get on track. It’s nice to not be so angry, even though my compassion was likely misplaced with her.

    So, here we are, face to face with the burden of performance and complementarity. Shouldering it all lightly, just recognizing this is how the world is. I came across this vid in my feed on Youtube, a couple sailing around the world who makes vids of their adventures. He decided to make a vid entitled “Why every sailor needs a girl”. For some reason it captured how delightful feminine energy can be for me. Could be my mood, who knows. Fyi, I also realize that in 2 hours I might feel this way about it but for the moment, I’ll take it. Enjoy.

  24. @Blax – I swear I didn’t see your Yin/Yang comment before making mine. Great minds thinking alike and all that…

  25. Now I read Rollo’s text an have more questions…

    What is morality other than a very malleable contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social dynamics?

    How can treating others as we would like to be treated guarantee social harmony when others may not want to be treated the same as we would like to be treated?

    Is the beta quest for “The One” soul mate a result of his charitable “civility” or is it his pursuit of nebulous self indulgent sexual fantasy?

    I’ve brought this up before here, so here we go again. Why would or why should any man consider his performance to be a burden? I agree that we all get burned out and perturbed from time to time, but considering performance a burden in a general sense to the extent that we define it as a burden just makes no sense unless we are completely discouraged. Performance should not be conflated with “burden” unless we consider life itself a burden. Forget cutting your dick off, just blow your brains out. Where does this concept of performance respecting men’s relationship to women come from? Who defines your performance in this context as a burden? Why do you insist on defining every man’s performance as such, regardless of how any man experiences it. Are you defining it for yourself as such or is the FI defining it this way and you accept it as such?

    Does either gender accept a self delusional clingy leech?

    Should either gender accept a self delusional clingy leech?

    Do all men hope for an “idealistic love” unrelated to “burden of performance” or are both of those contrived and unrealistic concepts?

    Who defined your idealism? Is it innately programmed into your physiological make up, or did you embrace a hope sold to you by others? If it is uniquely yours, why does it look so much like the same idealism embraced by so many others? Are you recognizing it in others or projecting it upon them?

    Introspective pontification does not define reality nor does it change the picture formed by connecting a few dots.

    Is all this rational an attempt to better manage your life or is it an attempt to justify clinging to an idealism that you subconsciously know but consciously only partially admit is really a lie?

  26. @NBTM – Morality is our attempt to end the “state of nature” man and beast existed in before civilization. This state of “all against” all is what we are left with if we don’t have morality. If this is foreign to you, try reading Hobbes…

  27. “Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.”

    So often I hear the “this isn’t the 1950s anymore!” trope and yet these same people will turn around and insist that men adhere to the old set of books/rules irrespective of the fact that the context for those rules/books has fundamentally changed to where there are severe consequences for following them, and they will insist on this purely on the basis of untempered idealism. Nevermind the numerous warning signs and that gut feeling telling you to get out. Reality says “divorce,” but the ideal says “love conquers all” or “if you love each other you’ll do fine.”

    For all its flaws, a patriarchy doesn’t create the profound disconnect from reality of intergender relations like the FI does. It doesn’t tell women lies and then ruthlessly punish them for believing them, because men have an incentive to tell the truth about what they want. There’s no need for women to maintain this kind of balance between idealism and reality in a patriarchy because they aren’t being constantly lied to from every corner about what it is that men want in a relationship or what values men appreciate in them.

  28. @Rollo

    I would tell you how I feel about what you just told me, but I rather not show weakness to one of my greatest heroes.

  29. Great way to start the year and set the tone. Being a man in 2016 is about being constantly tested—or shit-tested.

    I used to wonder why girls were so “bitchy” and now I am slowly starting to take that bitchiness as a compliment. Girls only shit-test men they are in some ways attracted to.

    But attraction is often a mix of intrigue, fear, excitement and hope. it really is like approaching a big angry dog. They growl, they sniff around and eventually if they feel comfortable they submit to the master’s authority.

    I’m looking at my interactions with the girls in my rotation. The ones who are now the easiest to be with: fun, funny, bang, helpful….were the ones who were also the coldest and stiffest at first.

    The hardest part of being a man now is saying “NO”—the pressure is now on from hot girls and white knights. White knights and betas are now the biggest threats…their sexual strategy is to try to cock block or put me down rather than proactively working on building attraction.

  30. @The Question

    Like I discovered earlier this week, there are levels to being awake to this shit.

    The 1950s came before the 1970s. Someone was up to something. Some misinformed scientist invented the birth-control pill.

    You hear anyone tell you it isn’t the 1950s anymore. Just laugh. Derisively.

  31. @scribblerg

    I agree and will read Hobbes for more insight. Thanks for the suggestion, I’ve seen that name before. So far I see the general issue as a cooperation-competition conundrum. I do not think there was ever a purely “all against all dynamic. Humans apparently existed anatomically the same as now for over 100,000 years prehistory and would not have survived without siginificant cooperation. Perhaps discomfort was more short lived precivilization. “Nature” certainly would have been more efficient at weeding out misfits and there would have been a lot less surpluses provisioning to fight over.

    Is referring to anyone as a “troll” who expresses critical, differing or challenging thoughts related to Rollo’s just a blatant revelation of personal intellectual laziness?

    Should challenges to Rollo’s expressions or questioning of his motivations be automatically vilified and and considered so invalid? If so what are we protecting and why?

  32. @walawala

    White knights and betas are now the biggest threats…their sexual strategy is to try to cock block or put me down rather than proactively working on building attraction.

    “Wait your turn there, slick. When your balls finally drop you might get a chance with her.”

  33. One thing to keep in mind, that you didn’t address is that a women value security above all else. Feeling “un-secure” in the right context is exciting. Out of context it’s repulsive and or frightening. When a man faces a struggle that makes him question himself and his power, authority and abilities, she will inevitably question that as well. And when that is in doubt, she will become fearful.

    In the video, where he talks about the perception of the man knowing more and wielding more power is absolutely true in a love relationship. I’m not talking about a woman and man in a relationship of convenience. I mean in a relationship where the woman loves the man, she looks up to him, admires him and takes his word and beliefs, often above her own. His steadiness and certainty gives her a security that she trusts more than herself on her own.

    Women can be anxious and doubtful. It is part of our hormonal cocktail. Whether women admit to it or not, I would bet every woman has felt it. Even while it may perplex us, we admire the steadiness of men. When we invest so much in a man that we are more attached to his opinion of us than our own (common occurrence) and even his opinions in general, more than our own, then when a man starts to doubt himself, it can be quite traumatic for the woman. It could almost be compared to a split in reality, such as when someone faces a truth they had denied for many years.

    Women seek security. It is part of our nature, our biology. To say that it is a reflection of a woman’s goodness or worth is as misguided as saying that when a man who is married enjoys looking at young sexy women he is a bad man. He is just a man. His response is natural. Just as her response to fear uncertainty is natural.

    What makes someone good is up to the individual. If we use the same description of the man looking at sexy young woman, he has a choice over whether or not to pursue that. We will weigh this choice by assessing the risks and benefits. They may be his obligations to his family, his love for his wife, his knowledge that said young woman will likely burn him, or whatever it may be. How he weighs this decision and the ultimate decision he makes is a reflection of if he’s a good or bad man, in my opinion.

    A woman may weigh her choices to stay or leave. Now, as you have stated and I won’t argue, women are more emotional than the “rational male.” They can possibly be lured by more fleeting lures. Perhaps they do not stick to their decisions as, grit their teeth and bear it like a man would. I’m not going to argue any of that with you because, like you, I have seen a wide variety of human behavior and I know we live in a “disposable society” currently where people, more often than not, flee to the newest shiniest thing. But to be good in this situation is a decision, not a character trait.

    What’s happened is not that women don’t have the capacity to be good, but that their goodness is no longer valued in society. And instead of seeking security in their men, they are getting their sense of security from society/feminism/government. So it is society/feminism/government that many young women are aiming to please, in the way that they used to aim to please their man.

    Both men and women are a mix of good and bad. And both, are inclined to repeat the behaviors that are rewarded and fulfilling. For women, to seek security, hypergamy is rewarded.

    Does this mean men can’t be vulnerable around women? There is a difference between sharing feelings and being vulnerable, or sharing doubts and concerns about a process and expressing self-doubt or self-hatred. Women love to bond through shared emotions. Women are excellent cheerleaders for a cause. But to love, admire, look up to a man who suddenly turns on himself with self-doubt, self-hatred and despair overwhelming and will make her feel fearful of him, of their situation and of herself. It is a betrayal of her own instincts.

    The decision to stay is a reflection of character, the reaction to flee is a reflection of nature.

    Some women will have a sense of obligation, or knowledge of human nature, or will be able to rationally weigh the current circumstances against the history of the relationship with the man and will assess, on a gut level to stick it out. Or they will be so bound by duty that they will stick it out no matter what. There is evidence of this everywhere, both good and bad (meaning both with men like Christopher Reeves who suffered physical trauma vs someone like Dugger who is a criminal). I’m sure you can also think of examples.

    So, while it may not seem “fair” or right and it may make men angry, one suggestion would be to continue to nurture communities like this, where men learn about masculinity, femininity, human nature. Where tough “red pill” truths are assessed, accepted and dealt with. It is easier to find a way around some problem than to fight them and I’d suggest this is a good truth to find a way around. A deep collapse in a man’s confidence is hard to handle alone, for any man. This is a time when men reaching out to other men is key, and men being aware of their support being important is key. Perhaps the best outlet for a man’s psychological struggle with self doubt is not his wife, but his buddy.

    I’d like to sit here and claim your article is crap and a woman can take on everything, or even that a relationship can shoulder everything. But the truth is life can royally suck at times and all of us have our limits. We aren’t meant to be alone and even as couples we aren’t meant to be isolated. Community is important.


  34. The Question,

    ” So often I hear the “this isn’t the 1950s anymore!” trope and yet these same people will turn around and insist that men adhere to the old set of books/rules irrespective of the fact that the context for those rules/books has fundamentally changed to where there are severe consequences for following them, and they will insist on this purely on the basis of untempered idealism. Nevermind the numerous warning signs and that gut feeling telling you to get out. Reality says “divorce,” but the ideal says “love conquers all” or “if you love each other you’ll do fine.”

    For all its flaws, a patriarchy doesn’t create the profound disconnect from reality of intergender relations like the FI does. It doesn’t tell women lies and then ruthlessly punish them for believing them, because men have an incentive to tell the truth about what they want. There’s no need for women to maintain this kind of balance between idealism and reality in a patriarchy because they aren’t being constantly lied to from every corner about what it is that men want in a relationship or what values men appreciate in them.”

    If I had a magic lamp ( idealism alert..), I would rub it and wish that all males everywhere would become immune to negative groupthink. I get that society has to have rules and acceptable behaviors, but I’d love to see men never blindly accept these without a thorough vetting and comparison for compatibility with their individual best interests and goals.

    But I became naturally suspicious back in the 70’s.

    I can’t recount the many instances in life when cries of ” Hey, you can’t do that!!!” or ” I can’t believe you said/did that!!!” was followed by wonderful rewards. * full disclosure* I did get bitten in the ass a few times, but rewards outweighed semi-failures 10 to 1.

    My motto is Know the Rules as expected, but bend the shit out of them or break them completely to gain that which is required. Some popular thought is very self limiting, especially under the current FI infused climate. Agreed that some limitation helps to sustain civilized society, but one must be able to see where the lines are and where they can/must be redrawn either temporarily or permanently, so that one can proceed unhindered in life. Or as unhindered as possible without facing jail or worse.

    We are only ever beholden to convention as our beliefs confine us to. It’s a mind thing.

  35. @NBTM, no you’re a troll because all of your “questions” have been addressed in multiple comment threads as well as many prior posts.

    What you have a problem with is reconciling your MGTOW ego-investments with the uncomfortable truths of the answers to your questions. Thus you keep coming back to re-ask them in the hopes of untangling the mess the MGTOW sphere has convinced you of.

    That’s one reason Niko has fallen from grace with that sphere, he proposes difficult concepts and asks questions that prompt guys like you back into your circular logic loop that only has one solution – just give up and drop out.

    Now, did you have something new to ask or are you just going to keep blathering about semantics and word choices?

  36. “What’s happened is not that women don’t have the capacity to be good, but that their goodness is no longer valued in society.”

    Society is the business of women.

  37. @Kitten, women’s security needs are rooted in Hypergamous doubt about optimization. Is he really the best I can do? Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks – sexual breeding optimization vs. provisioning and parental investment optimization.

    The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies:
    For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.

    In mens’ compromising or abandoning their sexual strategy to accommodate women’s they instill that insecurity and doubt.

    Women dualistic sexual strategy is a recipe for insecurity. Short term Alpha fucks tingles generated by excitement, anxiety, urgency uncertainty and danger conflicts with long term Beta bucks comfort, rapport, certainty, and predictability.

  38. “Women dualistic sexual strategy is a recipe for insecurity. Short term Alpha fucks tingles generated by excitement, anxiety, urgency uncertainty and danger conflicts with long term Beta bucks comfort, rapport, certainty, and predictability.” I don’t disagree. In a sexual context the insecurity is thrilling. In dating, it’s exciting. And in longer term relationships, uncertainty is still important. Anything else is boring.

    “The very essence of romance is uncertainty.” Oscar Wilde.

    I may not have been clear. I don’t think it is the responsibility of the man to alleviate all a woman’s insecurities or un-securities. I do believe women have a responsibility for their own emotional and sexual discipline and self awareness. I am simply suggesting that there are some kinds of insecurities that will trip her survival wires. A man’s intense self doubt is one of those things. A man’s violence against himself is for some, shockingly, more frightening than his violence against her.

    And some subjects don’t need to be shared. This notion that spouses need to be each other’s best friends and share all their deepest secrets is damaging. It doesn’t mean that men need to suffer alone, but some subjects might be better suited for a male support. Awareness of that could help get through the situation without sacrificing a relationship. Even a man’s mother would be more in a position to provide support during times of immense self doubt than a man’s spouse because the emotional investment, the survival investment is not the same.

  39. @Kitten

    “But the truth is women can royally suck sometimes and you men should totally keep your valuable abilities we wont acknowledge to yourselves while we get older and more full of shit.”


  40. “You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be.”

    Why men can and should cut loose and play like a kid.
    Or have some kind of activity that is theirs in some way.

  41. @Kitten

    Seriously though I can hear what you are saying. But that’s not how men are raised. And if it was, you’d never have a man before 30.

  42. @Kitten – First off, welcome. We enjoy women who are thoughtful and do not denigrate men here. I think you missed something crucial though in Rollo’s response to you, let me take a whack at it.

    The conundrum posed for men by women’s dualistic mating strategies is that in Alpha Fucks selection, the things that cause women insecurity are not the things that cause them insecurity in Beta Bucks selection. You reduce these negative states to just as loss of confidence or self-loathing, and miss the broader range of conflicting goals women are solving for. Example, look up the thread to Bookooball’s quote. He played the Alpha selection game, but when the women gets pregnant,, she turns on him and flees across the country because he didn’t qualify as a provider. It wasn’t that he was insecure or self loathing, it was that his woman “changed lanes” due to her shifting priorities. She doesn’t care that she’s stealing his offspring – a moral offense of staggering depravity.

    It’s also not true that Beta men who get abandoned by their wives telegraphephed insecurity or low self-esteem. Many of us just focused on provisioning and treated our wives like equals as the world told us to and that was all it took for our wives to turn on us and hate us.

    It’s not that you are saying something that is wrong, it’s that it’s incomplete. It also – tellingly – reduces female agency in this regard, positioning the “problem” as male self loathing and insecurity and woman’s reaction to it as being controlled by this.

  43. Kitten Holiday ‏@KittenHoliday 7 hours ago

    @RationalMale @man_private @SexyScience1 I don’t click when u throw links. The rest of us are engaging in discussion. Feel free to join us.

    Something I noticed.

  44. @kitten

    One thing to keep in mind, that you didn’t address is that a women value security above all else. Feeling “un-secure” in the right context is exciting.

    You contradicted yourself. Sometimes they value tingles, sometimes security. It’s called AFBB.

  45. Hi Yollo

    Yes, I realize that. Isn’t that what all this inquiry and critical thinking is about though? Finding the truth despite how we were raised? And facing them even if they are uncomfortable, sometimes even ugly? I’m aware women can “royally suck sometimes.” And I’m not saying that from an outside perspective, I’m saying that from the perspective of someone who tries very hard to live in accordance with my values and to be honest with myself and fair and there are still times I am like “Man I suck!”

    But thankfully there are more times, when I am aligned with my goodness, when I know deeply that I am in touch and expressing some of my greatest strengths and giving something to the world, to my friends, to my lover, to my children that is much needed and easy for me to express as a part of my nature.

    We are all complex, good and bad. Fighting that truth gets in the way of us actually living the best we can. For me, it’s been best to recognize my weaknesses, my flaws and if I can’t eliminate them, try to manage them, and if I can’t manage them then at least not deny them so I can make amends or just leave people the hell alone if I have nothing good to offer.


  46. @Rollo via @NBTM,

    The problem with some of the MGTOW brothers is that they have their Red Pill sunglasses on instead of their eyeglasses..

    It’s simple cognitive dissonance, when they should just put the damn glasses on and keep them on lest they keep running into their metaphorical plate glass wall of sophistry.

    Maintain frame and don’t doubt the game.

    I’m MGTOW and I trust in the Lord, the Red Pill and what I see.

    And with all equanimity I choose to either speak to the stones – or step on them.

    Time out for trippin’.

  47. Hi @Scribblerg,
    Thank you for explaining more. I realize there is a lot I may miss because there is a lot I have not yet read and there seem to be a lot of phases and ideas that are new to me.

    I did read this comment:

    Example, look up the thread to Bookooball’s quote. He played the Alpha selection game, but when the women gets pregnant,, she turns on him and flees across the country because he didn’t qualify as a provider. It wasn’t that he was insecure or self loathing, it was that his woman “changed lanes” due to her shifting priorities. She doesn’t care that she’s stealing his offspring – a moral offense of staggering depravity.

    Here’s how I understand it as a woman though. And I will say I can totally see how it can be read like she is stealing his offspring. I am simply proposing a new angle.

    When a woman gets pregnant, her need for security increases exponentially. She knows that she needs more protection for one and secondly, her hormones are doing somersaults. In this situation, when she was testing him, the consequences were more dire, on a certain level she was testing if he would abandon her, she was testing if he would protect her and the child in their most vulnerable state. She’s looking for more security than “verbal reassurance.” Not only does she want more security, she’s likely got family, friends, etc telling her she needs him to marry her, to commit to her. When he stood his ground, he was making her feel uncertain to the point where she felt she had to flee to something more secure. So she hightailed it home to family which is the last place she was secure during a vulnerable time (childhood). It’s also not surprising that at the same time she took flight, she took “fight” and turned on the bitch. Not only did she feel pressured by circumstance but she had to rationalize it to herself that she was doing what was right, which she wasn’t sure of. She doubted herself, but in committing to her decision to leave, she had to make him the enemy. And when someone is the enemy you fight. So the bitch came out. I think this is very common. I see it happen in nearly every divorce. The woman is generally just dissatisfied, lonely, seeking attention, but when she makes the decision to leave, her guilt surfaces and she needs back up justification. Her #yolo #doingme affirmations aren’t enough, so she demonizes her ex.


  48. @Kitten,

    They are not the same.

    Tingles are the catalyst to a woman’s emotional frame and fulcrum for her dating strategy…unlike “excitement”, which can be transient.

  49. Brilliant Rollo! I feel the same way actorseancory expressed. Perfect attitude reminder! Happy New Year!!

  50. @kitten

    you said “above all else”, and clearly you haven’t bothered to read much of Rollo’s 500 posts. I’m putting you on scroll.

  51. Sun Wukong “when your balls finally drop…” Right …when you realize you’re on your own and game is as much a sexual survival strategy and it is a mating strategy then Red Pill truths become more obvious.

    @Rollo bellum omnium contra omnes could also be interpreted as every man for himself…

    I tried a simple experiment. A group tried undermining and sabotaging an event I recently put on. Fewer people came but I made money and had a great crowd and great reviews. A while later I met the perpetrators. They couldn’t look me in the eye. I greeted everyone as though I didn’t have a care in the world. It produced puzzled looks: we thought he’d be furious. I was but just didn’t show it. I personally avoided needless drama that would come with a useless confrontation . Bellum omnium contra omnes

  52. @KittenHoliday

    I think ScribblerG makes a good point here. It’s a pretty natural mistake to make – women seem to sublimate the dualistic nature of their strategy, and its results, pretty studiously so even when someone like you knows about the dynamic a few things slip awareness.

    See, you’re giving us a pretty straightforward ‘just try not to telegraph xyz to your woman since that will tend to trigger her anxiety limbically’ sort of message. Which is true so far as it goes. But if that’s all that was at play here the lesson would be easy.

    But it’s not – first of all, because you need to be telegraphing signals to a woman that indicate two entirely different sorts of characters to her in order to maintain both her attraction and her arousal. And those two characters are rather like oil and water. If not aluminum and iron. And second because women take subconscious but powerful steps to actively conceal what they want/need, and to actually suppress the characteristics they want to see in a man. That’s what shit testing is for; it’s an attempt to break you down, in order for you to prove that she can’t. For now.

    I’m not trying to be down on women here, I like women a great deal.😉 And the things you’re saying are helpful; indeed, they might be all that a woman really needs to understand about the whole thing to make stuff work well. Have character, understand when your biology is influencing you towards possibly irrational decisions, realize that if your character is set against biology, biology will eventually win. But from a man’s perspective you need a bit more nuance.

    One other thing: “What’s happened is not that women don’t have the capacity to be good, but that their goodness is no longer valued in society. And instead of seeking security in their men, they are getting their sense of security from society/feminism/government. So it is society/feminism/government that many young women are aiming to please, in the way that they used to aim to please their man.

    Again, mostly agree. In fact, the best way I can gauge a woman’s genuine attraction to me is the degree to which she begins to adopt my beliefs and preferences without any apparent cognitive dissonance. It’s unbelievable, like a switch going off. If a girl flirts with me but doesn’t do that, she just wants something from me. Maybe attention, maybe money/resources/status, maybe even sex. But she doesn’t want me.

    But I would change your focus a bit. I would say that, rather than it being primarily about ‘goodness’ not being valued by society, it’s that woman’s morality is reactive. They will take on the values of those they respect. In a sense they have a capacity for good and evil, but its expression is contingent upon some other force that acts upon them.

  53. Absolutely agree with everything you said and am glad I got your comment by email so I can file it to read it again. I’m sure I don’t “get” all of it and will understand it differently as I learn more, but for what it’s worth right now, it made a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

    As for your comment ” indicate two entirely different sorts of characters to her in order to maintain both her attraction and her arousal.” I agree with that. My comments were in response to Rollo’s story about losing an important woman in his life when he was at a low point and why that particular situation would make a woman “abandon” vs. tap into her nurturing side.

    As far as attraction and arousal go, I wholeheartedly agree. And I would even dare to say men need it too. Bemoan “drama” as they may, many can’t seem to stay away from it. That’s a topic for another day. I’m not trying to hijack here. I appreciate everyone’s responses to me.

  54. I could barely listen to Niko. I tuned away from him and the entire MGTWO BS parade a while ago and that’s when my real RP journey began. Listen to him, “drop the mask” and talk about a man within a man who’s scared to be feminine, living n quiet desperation.

    This “inner man” is male false consciousness brought on by the FI and Blue Pill world. It’s a hectoring weakness and softness that we cultivate to protect us from reality, we hide in it to justify our failures and giving up, and to tell us that the world is unfair. But this inner man? He’s the one that isn’t real. He’s the one that leads us to ruin. Being “him” is the road to soul death for a man.

    The entire idea that we are somehow different on the inside from the outside, that there is this emotional being hidden inside of us is a feminine constructed myth. Sure, we have emotions and we know that being run by our emotions rarely helps us. Men can express their emotions, but wallowing in them is useless – this is childish behavior. Women live in their emotions – does any man really want to be like that?

    He also seems to denigrate stoicism with one comment, but all stoicism is about is living life on life’s terms rather than the fantasyworld many MGTOW create in their minds where they are misunderstood and unappreciated heroes. They retreat there and pretend that it’s all going great, while they game 30 hours+ a week and sink deeper into cynicism, rage and self-abnegation.

    There is no there “there” in MGTOW, which is why I left. Here’s the truth you guys will not face. All of life is a competition. This is the nature of all species and the biological world. We over[reproduce, and then compete for resources and to reproduce. Not all life thrives, some die even. It’s the way of life and we are built for it. All men need do is accept this and move forward. It’s not easy and it is painful to face after a life of having your head filled with nonsense and bullshit but if a man faces reality squarely, he will feel more natural and more centered and powerful. Men are incredible and we will help each other in this struggle. But we won’t help MGTOW destroy themselves and we will never respect them. Ever – they represent the opposite of our masculine essence.

  55. @Rollo

    In your context you are correct about me “having a problem reconciling MGTOW” ego investments. However (and you may not believe this, it is true for whatever it’s worth) those investments are made without any influence from the Internet sphere. Honestly, the only site I’ve researched and participated on is yours. Reviews of any others have been extremely brief and visited because they were referenced here. I’ve found them all too stupid for my time. I’m not an MGTOW subscriber as you suspect.

    Am I reconciling MGTOW ego investments or am I learning to accept my autonomy?

    The reason you see me writing the same questions and repeated comments is because I am consistently responding to the endless loop of repeated ideas expressed here. They are repeated over and over, posed slightly differently, but this is like a record stuck on the same repeatitive track saying the same thing attempting to resolve itself like a spinning wheel stuck in a rut. That rut is romantic idealism.

    If we loose a desire for romantic idealism what do we really loose other than a useless misguiding delusion? If we fear that abandoning romantic idealisim will devalue our lives, then aren’t we a slave to it? If a man fears his life will be meaningless and he will loose direction without it, then hasn’t he put it before everything else including himself? Why must it exist at any level of importance to us? Why must it be sought or indulged in any context? Many of us (including myself in years past) indulge it in some context or another. In your second book you described the idea that romantic idealism is best exercised within a frame established controlled by the man. I do not disagree with you, but why must a man exercise romantic idealism at all? Why go about creating a frame within which to exercise it when the only viable frame is reality itself and reality does not include it? You consistently reference romantic idealisim as if it is a universal male trait. It is not. You are projecting your desires on other men universally. I believe you want to indulge in romantic ideals and you are seeking a method to psychologically safeguard against its potential negative consequences. I don’t mean to insult or vilify you. I just do not condone any pursuit or exercise of romantic idealism in any context. It is worthless. Maybe this is because I’m 52, “matured” some and my libido is less than the starry eyed 20 year old I was 32 years ago. Some have written words to the effect that it is impossible for a man to escape romantic idealisim, that it is our nature inherently, that someone may as well cut their dick off. I believe those words are written by people who cannot let go of it because they are defending their addiction to it.

    What is wrong with reality? Why must a pursuit of romantic idealism supersede reality? Why must reality be managed in some way to accommodate romantic idealisim when reality itself is the better pursuit and cannot include it?

    Sometimes I wonder if I am really a “troll” and sometimes I wonder if this is a cave with a few “trolls” in it yelling “Troll!” at anyone outside the cave.

  56. I have read them before. They were recommended to me just the other day actually. I will comment there in the next few days as I will need to read them again to comment.


  57. @Kitten – Hold your horses, darling, you are assuming a ton about BooKooball – and hey dude, you should weigh in with more details. But we don’t know he only reassured her, we don’t know what the material situation was or how they could have fared together, yet you assume he was not ready to pull his weight as a Dad and this JUSTIFIES her bailing. Again with your female hypoagency, it’s a theme with you.

    Even worse are the sociological aspects of it. Women are supposed “strong and independent”, right? They “don’t need no man”, at least this is how we are told to see them and treat them. But when the chips are down and things get tough, what, a woman gets to revert to being a scared child again? Nah, no dice. Either we treat women like children or they start acting like adults – you choose.

    Even worse, if all this women really wanted was security, she would try and get this guy to stay with her and to take care of her and their child. But what she likely wanted is security on her terms, on her timeframe and as she defines it. And of course, since childbirth is a one way female controlled option in which fathers have no say in, she feels perfectly entitled to run back home. Home, where parents take care of you unconditionally, right? This is what many women want today – all the goodies, just the way they want it or they’ll take our shit and run. Including our children. They don’t want to have to actually deal with us and how we are and how we see things. If they don’t like it, they feel like they can just run and take our kids. And you excuse her.

    It’s terroristic. Really. Get that.

    And if you want to participate in dialog here, go to the top of the page and start reading the Best of Year 1 and 2 and you will start to get what’s being discussed here. You have some partially developed ideas that are interesting and an open mind and don’t hate men, but you have little grasp of the depth of what’s actually being discussed here. Dive in, you will be incredibly happy you did – but you might find your ego investments in thinking you have already discovered all their is to discover about human intersexual dynmics are going to be challenged and if you don’t release them, you will not grow. You have a blog that’s “edgy” and you are “iconoclastic” and are seen as this seer in terms of sexuality, it will be hard for your to realize you are missing much of the picture. In other words, nice start, now come join the big boys in the deep end of the pool – I dare you…

  58. @NBTM – I get it, you can’t get laid, it sucks. But back here in realsville, well, you’ve really stepped in it now. Reducing what Rollo presents here to “romantic idealism”? What the fuck are you talking about? You are completely disengaged from the actual conversation going on. It would be much better described as anti-romantic realism, fucknutz.

    Troll indeed, don’t you have a video game to go play? And what the fuck are you doing here anyway? It’s all bullshit and we are the trolls, fine, fuck off then. Really – nobody here wants what you have, which equals soul death and self-abnegation. Go start your own blog and see if anyone wants to read your whiny, ill informed nonsense.

    I was kind to you about the morality comment. What it reveals is that you haven’t bothered to study philosophy at all – Hobbes is a must to be able to even start to think about the topic. You are just bootstrapping from crap flying around in your head – it’s laughable sophistry.

    Enough. Really.

  59. In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?

    Long time reader, first time commenter. I’m a musician, and this reminds me of my approach to music. I heard in an interview that Rollo was a musician in L.A. when he was younger, and he said he did it mostly “for the chicks.” I know people may not believe it, but I never did it for the chicks (and I’m still an active musician). Music was always the most important thing for me. The type of music I loved and wanted to play was never popular. Most chicks (hell, most dudes) did not like the music that I liked. But, I never tried to water down what I did to give it more mainstream appeal. I was always pissed at the world that the musicians who I thought were geniuses died penniless more often than not, while talentless hacks became stars. “How are people buying this shit?” I’d think, much the same why I’d feel when seeing a vid of a PUA rope in a dumb chick with his spiel.

    If electronic disco music is what the chicks dig, but you like acoustic fingerpicked blues songs, or pan flute solos, or whatever – what are you gonna do? You can go against your instincts, buy a laptop with ableton, and make music you don’t like because that’s what’s popular. Or, you can say fuck it, I’m playing what I want even if only a handful of people around the world are on my wavelength. That’s what I did.

    (This isn’t to denigrate the guys who are genuinely into whatever happens to be popular. If you really like EDM, go for it. For some guys it is genuine. Just like it wouldn’t be congruent for Van Morrison to try to be David Lee Roth. They both got plenty of women, just of different types. Me, I’d look ridiculous trying to fake it. So, if there’s one thing I can look back on with pride in my blue pill days it is that at least I was always congruent.)

    And I got laid just fine. Sure, I could have a lot more if I hadbeen mimicing whatever happened to be popular at the time, but I did alright. Plus, I didn’t have to pretend to be something I wasn’t. I guess I’m rambling but what I’m relating to from this post is that there’s some stuff more important than women, and whatever that is for you, it should be its own reward even if it doesn’t include an obvious benefit in terms of sexual strategy or anything else except in terms of your own frame. And ironically, doing that very thing (you mission, what you think is important even if the world or women don’t) will make you more attractive.

  60. @Rollo thanks for another brilliant post.I found this site 3months ago and have read all oyear one and all underline references.As my outlook changes the relationship with my wife is improving relatively.

    @scribblerg ditto.

    @kitten being good and doing good are two different things hence the saying “no good do gooders”

    So these newlyweds decided to live off love for awhile the man comes home to find his wife sliding down the banister He asked her why she replied I am warming up your dinner.

  61. NBTM Does have a point though. This whole discussion is framed around the idea of finding a mate, and then tying that in with romantic ideals about love and everlasting commitment. I doubt humans actually evolved to be romantics. They evolved to live in tribal societies, where people had sex as they pleased and tried to collectively survive. I doubt any man had any great certainty or care who the father of children were. They developed systems for taking care of the unit. Since there was no real mating selection process, males grew larger penises as this gave them a greater chance of being a father than the guy with a smaller penis (send their sperm past the other guys).

  62. @scribblerg

    Ha Ha ! LOL

    I just “got laid” and it happens several times a week.

    You guys are frustrated. We all are, or have been. That’s what this is all about. Sexual frustration and the preceived threats of feminist power, fear of loneliness, and regrets.

    Some of what you’ve written here is good, some not, same for Rollo and all of us. There’s no sense in getting upset about any of it unless you’re willing to consider perspectives other than your own and those you subscribe to, seeking approval.

    Maybe I’m a “troll” visiting a cave of “trolls”, but I can share one thing that’s worth consideration. You are really accountable to no one but yourselves.

    I’ll be back next post.

    Maybe Rollo will come up,with somthing as fresh as his early stuff.

  63. @Informationjunkyblahblahblah – Citations please, where the fuck does Rollo actually say “he idea of finding a mate, and then tying that in with romantic ideals about love and everlasting commitment”. Answer: Nowhere, and you’ve clearly not read much of what he’s said or you’d never say that.

    As well, your characterization of primitive man are by no means comprehensive or dominant. But hey, keep up the fantasyworld, it justifies all your and and you do (or better said, all you are not and all you won’t do). Run along now, son, be NBTM’s first blog fan…

  64. @informationjunke1984
    You should read CAPTURED BY THE INDIANS 15first hand accounts.This you will find very informative as to the mating selection process as well as many other ways of tribal life.

  65. Angus,


    ( I got a few minutes to kill before turning in for the night, so I’ll ” blah, blah )

    I too never played for chicks, but chicks came ( he he ).
    As a child I sat in the floor as my dad wailed away on his battered Les Paul. He exposed me to all of the 50’s guitarists before I ever got to see them on television. Rock, Blues, Jazz, Country ( born in Va. ) and STAX fueled R&B. He palyed at least 3 hours a day after work and I learned everything from him. So I was a kid playing Chuck Berry tunes and duckwalking across the living room.

    Then I heard Santana, Hendrix and the Beatles…and Stones…and James Brown and that’s when my little mind got opened up and blown.

    I played in a few bands up into my late teens/early twenties, but I didn’t enjoy it as much as I thought. Playing in front of crowds made me anxious as hell. I envy Rollo in that respect, I couldn’t hang. But chicks dug it immensely.

    Then I went through an extended Yes phase. It was Yes, day and night. Chicks didn’t dig that so much, lol. I won’t even go into the King Crimson phase….good times man.

    Then I took on a friend/student, and the 80’s hair band journey took off. Attended every Monsters of Rock concert in Jersey, lost maybe 5% of my hearing, lol. Chicks digging again, student joins Def Leppard Cover band and bones his way to semi stardom.

    I met Eddie Hazel and found my anthem, Maggot Brain…lol… It’s a really soulful jam despite the name guys. I cannot play it without tearing up. Impossible.

    As in everything else in life, I believe men must push and explore and expand. Life is varied and wonderful that way. Music can be a very personal thing. Embrace what you like/love. Popularity? Meh, not for everybody I guess. Change for popularity’s sake? Nah, I ain’t trying to hear that.

  66. @scribblerg Whatever dude.. I’m sure they’ll put how many women you screwed on your tombstone and children 1000 years from now will know your name.

  67. @scribblerg, My dick is bigger than yours. You wanna measure? What relevance does your ad hominem attacks have to the discussion? You just want to silence people with a dissenting viewpoint.

  68. @scribblerg – dude you got a lot of intelligence but you don’t seem to have a very good handle on the scope of the limits of what you can accurately know. For instance you assume an awful lot about people’s character that you couldn’t possibly know. I think you just might be suffering from the dreaded hyper-agency. Hyper-scribbler you are! I bet the fiction you said you are working on is good though – because you have an expansive imagination – and that’s a compliment, but you are also often behaving post-wise like a prick, as you claimed was working well for you in real life, with no downside. Word of advice, the prick-mode doesn’t actually work as well for you as you seem to think.

  69. @Wild – I have no zero tolerance for MGTOW chodes spraying nonsense. They have many sites where they can spew their delusional horseshit, I just don’t want to see it here. Neither NBTM nor InfoChode say anything worth reading. Period. Dot. End of sentence. And guess what, pal, I’m not trying to “make it work” for you. I’m seriously sick of these assholes.


  70. @Wild – And your ideas are even less grounded and just as absurd. The real problem with the internet is that it lets sub-par intellects preen about sophistic horseshit as though it’s wisdom and nobody will stop them.

    But please, show me and Rollo up. Start the “Egalitarian Mental Masturbation and Circular Reaoning Society” site and see how many folks you can attract. You’ll fall flat on your fucking face and nobody will bother as your ideas are irrelevant crap.

  71. Hi Rollo,

    I have spent hours reading your articles as i have discovered your writings recentley and im a 20 year guy. Reading this is all very depressing. Sometimes when im just relaxing, i start to think about the AF/BB dynamic and i cant stop. I think about the real life examples i’ve seen as well and my mind cant help but to link what i’m seeing back to your articles.

    I realise i am slipping into depression but even then, the truth of what women are aroused by will not change that.

    Any advice/counseling would be much appreciated

  72. @ Blaximus

    Awesome that you met Eddie Hazel. Super Stupid is one of my favorite songs, and of course the solo on Maggot Brain.

    Hendrix was my hero growing up. Can’t even begin to talk about how much his music affected my life. First Strat I owned was an Olympic white with a maple neck, just like the Woodstock Strat.

    Now I build my own, and I’m working on building up business doing guitar and bass repairs and customization. Still play a lot and wonder if my Strat that I built and that old Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face and Italian Vox wah pedal from ’69 will get any live performance time from me. Haven’t let go of that dream yet.

    Anyway, that’s how it goes…realizing the world is the way it is, and then realizing that you have to either rise above it all, or drown in your own shit.

  73. I accept the burden of performance, but now understanding Hypergamy, the non existence of relational equity, women’s innate solipsism and lack of empathy,
    I now insist that any woman that wants to be associated with me performs her own feminine duties, I do not offer or expect unconditional love.

    I have a 13 year old son, at 48 I have no wish for more children and knowing what I do now marriage is totally out of the question.

    I now view women as an accessory to my life and not the focus of it, most of the time I USE them for entertainment purposes only, women have turned themselves into a commodity to be consumed for the most part.

    To loosely quote Solomon II
    ” The world is crawling with Sexy,Ugly Women who should not be valued for anything more than for what is between their legs, who better to fuck the ugliest of women but the ugliest of men?”

    So be Hot, fuck me good and entertain me or get to stepping, for what else do you offer?

    If however I find a feminine creature of character who encompasses beauty,femininity and class into a seamless tapestry that I can’t live without, and she wants to take a chance on an old player like me, then I better master the art of the male version of snow flaking.

    Until then I’ll do my best to enjoy this competition that is Life, and will embrace my burden of performance, for I am a Man and it keeps me sharp, on the edge, where I Need to be.

  74. @scribblerg – categorizing as mgtow is just a cop-out. Rollo hasn’t properly addressed NBTM’s line of thought as of yet. I have also been puzzled by Rollo’s avoidance of taking up some issues. I haven’t really been seeing the avoidance in terms of how NBTM is coloring it (but who knows maybe NBTM is reading Rollo accurately) – and I have to admit that I don’t really know what the source of the avoidance is, so you got me.

    I suspect Rollo doesn’t see human experience described by any other perspective, other than redpill, as worthwhile. If this suspicion is accurate, I have no clue why Rollo would see it this way.

    If I’m reading Rollo’s sentiment on this correctly, then, perhaps, in the end Rollo may be right. But there is not nearly enough evidence to make such a large claim as of yet. There are other perspectives the hold water (even with evol psych), and it may turn out redpill is a subscript of a larger algorithm. Don’t know. Worth talkign about IMO. For instance redpill doesn’t do a very good job of dealing with the human trait of collaboration.

    Perhaps Rollo is indicating that this blogspot isn’t the place for such discussion, and that would be fair, if he would just clearly say so, but he doesn’t (as again evidenced by today’s post, that insinuates a larger discussion beyond the dictates of redpill may be warranted here, by way of the exploration of the value of justice). In the comments today Rollo again pulled back from fully engaging on this issue in a meaningful way. He seems to allow only insinuation but not exploration.

    I and perhaps a few others here such as NBTM, (though I don’t pretend to be able to speak fro him, so I am only guessing) are sensing an unspoken discussion-boundary.

    One of my personal speculations is that this unspoken discussion boundary is actually due to:

    – the primary definition of men and women prescribed to here = atomized procreation value.

    If that is the case, I would contend that is not a good way to define oneself (or others) in the primary.

    But again I am only speculating.

  75. @Wild Man

    The problem you seem to have with the Red Pill itself is that it is pragmatic truth and guidance for men who make themselves their own mental point of origin. Or it is nothing.

    The idea of men and women as “atomized procreation value” isn’t meant to define people in the superficial ways you hear people talk of themselves in modern television programs(in long-winded, self-serving “suggestions” of how much worth they supposedly have as people). It is meant to inform people of what they actually happen to be along with any other sort of learned, conditioned, horseshit that makes up the bulk of their (faulty)self-perception.

    The Red Pill is a brutal reassessment in the practicality of everything you believe is true(and everything you are/own/do) and a reorientation towards new ends you now, with red-pill awareness, attempt to pursue and realize, free from the influence of the Feminine Imperative to turn a man into a Flavored Jellybean.

    Your first instinct seems to be trying to tell people that they are wrong.

    Rollo never tells any of us what to think. He just tells us what he sees and he sees a fuck load.

    Read first. Speculate later.

  76. @Kitten Holiday

    “So, while it may not seem “fair” or right and it may make men angry, one suggestion would be to continue to nurture communities like this, where men learn about masculinity, femininity, human nature.”

    I think you’re underestimating the anger. Men are more likely to doubt themselves these days because we have failing institutions, wages that have stagnated for a generation, rising employment precariousness, a falling male labor participation rate, education which costs half as much as a mortgage and very often doesn’t lead to employment, and so on.

    Between neoliberal economics and feminism, what you basically have is an unfolding disaster that is creating an army of superfluous men who have no meaningful relationship to any of our institutions. To call it a disaster isn’t even hyperbole. How do you think those personal experiences, grievances, and insecurities color their interpretation of public affairs? What is the political consequence of women’s inability to be adults or to recognize that they can no longer expect men to be daddy in gender equality land? I guess we’ll get to find out, yeah?

    Women of course go on expecting breadwinners, if marriage and income statistics are any indication, so it would appear you have a problem that isn’t just confined to people’s feelings or relationship woes. The best any guy has come up with so far is to simply pursue the only other role that women allow men, which is the alpha cad, since beta providers are out. Take a look at any decimated, redlined, deindustrialized city and observe the results.

    As it turns out, there are profound political and economic consequences to women’s little emotional hangups. I mean the things men ask of women are usually within a woman’s power to change. Comb your hair, watch what you eat – how difficult is this? The same can’t be said of the things women ask of men. Men require functioning institutions in order to qualify for women in a way that is socially advantageous for everyone. That problem begins and ends with women, doesn’t it?

    I’m not really sure there is anything else men can do at this point. I think it’s time for women to change.

  77. Wild, I have a friend who is an amazing artist, in all disciplines. He can paint, sculpt, line draw, design. etc. For years a collective of his friends has tried to get his stuff into the light. The best quote was from a woman dealer, who bluntly put it, “you are a renaissance man, you do everything and you do it impeccably. I cannot sell you because you are all around the block. Now look at Bateman, Him I can sell, for everyone knows, without having to look at the signature, that this is a Bateman. Chose a discipline, narrow it down, and then come to me.”

  78. @Wild Man, as I stated in the last thread, I gave up on bothering with your attempts to wedge some metaphysical rationalizing of egalitarianism into a Red Pill box. I and many other commenters here gave you more than the attention you were seeking in that navel gazing exercise.

    I’m no longer going to hold your hand about your deliberate intellectual lethargy, because you don’t want an answer to your bullet pointed and articled lists that only serve your religious leanings.

    That said, and once again, you ignore the countless response I and others have made in addressing NBTM over the past year. But as I’ve come to expect your lack of intellectual curiosity I’ll hold your hand one last time and direct you to every fucking response I’ve delivered to NBTM about his repeated points. See that you pay attention this time:

    And while you’re reading through all of that, be sure to read the entire post here, where I address NBTM’s constant moanings:

    Doing More

    A while back I was asked why the Burden of Performance should be called a “burden” at all. Should it not be a “challenge” or a “opportunity”? All optimist semantics aside, it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.

    I’m sure equalist critics will want to cast women into the same performance role, but in a uniquely male sense, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves. To be a ‘man’ is to produce in excess of what you consume – thus having the potential to support a family, an extended family, ensure security, give back to his community and/or reinvest that excess in greater endeavors or passions. While it may be part of the Feminine Imperative’s media campaign to popularize the character of the Strong Independent Woman® there is still room for women to expect the best out of a man while being provided for herself. In other words women have both the option to strive for independence while also retaining the option to be provided for by her husband or an LTR. And failing either of these, they retain an institutional right to Law 7.

    Men must be independent resource providers, they must make more of themselves than what they began with, independent of dispensations or special privilege. There is no safety net, no other socially acceptable option to be provided for and still retain his being definitively a ‘man’. One of the hesitations I have with endorsing the Red Pill idea of going ‘Monk Mode’ is less about the isolation and more about the motivation men need to find within themselves to better themselves.

    We look down on men who are dependent on women. Whether that’s financially, emotionally or physically, there is no option for dependence. One of the primary complaints professional, educated, independent women bemoan is their inability to pair off with a man of ‘like’ (or above) status. They’ll make euphemisms to characterize the men who would be their ‘equals’ who wont date them, but what they fail to acknowledge is the fundamental, root level truth of men’s burden of performance. For all the high-minded hopes of equalism, women’s Hypergamy still wants to filter for both sexual and provider acceptability in men.

    Back in 2012 I based a post on Creative Intelligence from a study about how improvisational skills and creativity factored into a woman’s Hypergamous considerations. I wont quote it in length here, but suffice it to say that there is a measurable difference in how women perceive men with a trained or innate ability to improvise in, and overcome, times of adversity. As might be expected a man with a proven capacity to produce more than he consumes – especially when he’s had to come back from failure or misfortune – tends to be a more attractive mate choice that the man who chances into his own affluence.

    Bear in mind that attraction and arousal are different sides of the Hypergamy coin (AF/BB), but many cross-cultural studies suggest that a capacity for creative, innovative, adaptive intelligence has been an evolutionarily selected-for socio-sexual trait in men – much less so in women. That’s important for the MGTOW critic to remember, it’s not as simple as a feminine-primary social order dictating men being slaves to their burden of performance. Just as gender is primarily biological, and not a social construct, neither is women’s evolved, Hypergamous sexual filtering.


    Now kindly go fuck yourself.

  79. If we loose a desire for romantic idealism what do we really loose other than a useless misguiding delusion? If we fear that abandoning romantic idealisim will devalue our lives, then aren’t we a slave to it?

    @NBTM, you are conflating “romantic” with “idealism”.

    Go downtown tomorrow. Walk around and look at the cars, the buildings, the art museum. Put your digital music on on your headphones, listen to the greatest song you think ever existed. Type a few comments on your computer. Look up pictures of Vegas or Dubai.

    That is just a small sampling of what you lose when you remove men’s idealism. Yes, misguided, feminine deluded, feminine manipulated, Blue Pill idealism is a liability that men must overcome or they suffer the consequences, but we lose so much more if we remove that idealism entirely.

  80. This post makes a lot of sense. Applying this to myself, I think what’s in order is reconnecting with whatever idealism I have but which isn’t tied to somehow qualifying for the mythical wife who was supposed to appear on the stage of my life at some point if I just got my life in order.

    But that’s the issue: It seems like you’re groomed your whole life to be a provider if you were as clueless about this stuff I was. If you totally bought into the blue pill for most of your adult life as I did, you can’t even tell which desires are your own and which were bound up with whatever system of values you believed would lead to the picket fence and family thing.

    What a mess.

    Without that idealism I really don’t see much motivation, since devoting my life to getting laid a lot seems pretty empty and hardly worth the bother. You need to attempt to become the hero of your own life in some way or another, no matter how small, or else what’s the point? But I guess you have to learn to be a hero for yourself rather than some solipsistic child.

    Also, I need the red pill rage thing to end. I can’t seem to get past it even when I realize how unproductive it is. It’s like you just have to stop expecting things from women and resign yourself to the sad reality. I honestly read this shit and I almost always have the thought “why don’t men just burn this society to the ground and be done with it?

  81. Using the blue pill behavior to “ungame” a girl? That may help in a situation where breaking her heart will potentially be harmful, but all it will do for her is give her already inflated ego a boost. If you are breaking up with her, she needs to know why so she can learn from it. Sure, feminine indignation will probably blind her, but her pride and ego will be put in check which is what she really needs.

  82. Oh lawdy, NBTM is whining about idealism again? Dude, do you ever get bored of that shit or do you just have a thing for obsessive repetition of pointless discussions?

  83. Rollo…If you decide to write a third book, I would highly recommend this post be Chapter 1…or the entire theme of the book. You’ve already published your “wake up” work, as well as your proactive guidance manual, both of which serve a purpose in my view. The first obviously awakens the BPer up to reality. The second provides insight on what to expect from women while operating inside the Matrix. A third book, quite honestly, should focus on how, as men, we can choose to best maintain this Red Pill balance you’ve explained (or pointed out from exceptional comments) in what should go down as a “best of” post for Year 5 of TRM. Men need to know that they are not on a binary pathway, especially MGTOWs or those seriously considering it as the only logical solution. In other words, many men have woken up, and know what to expect from here on out from the FI. I’m not so sure there as many men who, despite their knowledge, have enough spirit/strength (whatever it need be called) to not “give up”.

    Thanks for all that you do.

  84. Your words read like an attempt to discredit the writer using big words to sound smart but overall lack any real depth or sincerity.

    The Rational Male is a book that this writer sells on online for a very modest price which has sold thousands of copies and helped many men find success in life with women. You going to tell thousands of men that thank Rollo Tomassi for his help they are all delusional for believing him too, sugartits? The proof is in the pudding and your late to the party.

  85. @Rollo
    As incisive as ever!

    Hugely relevant to my current circumstances, in which a woman I know, recently declared her desire for me … and then backed-off as soon as she perceived that I was ‘a good person’ (her words!).

    I suspect in her mind that ‘good’ equals ‘weak’, and so I could no longer, in her mind, be ‘strong’ and therefore represent the prospect of danger and thrill-seeking she is searching for as an alternative to her staid LOTR to whom she remains attached ( I have come to appreciate that there is no such thing as an unattached woman), and for whom she has declared her ‘love’ (all this, of course, while intimating to me that I am the object of her fantasies!).

    Curiously, she had pursued me …

    So, now I am wiser, and will not be so ‘good’ next time around.

    A valuable lesson for me in perception and that what a woman does is always the true litmus test of a woman – never what she says.

  86. Breaking form from my lurking to weigh in. Holy shit Rollo, white hot conversation. . . this is great.


    Perhaps you could consider (understanding the climate of the sexual marketplace as you so well understand & articulate) that the mythical wife that does not appear is a blessing.

    My personal experience is such that I had the love of my life, and as a result of my blue pill conditioning it ruined my marriage and eroded my identity. I became emotionally devastated with a huge financial toll. And if not for family, almost ended my life.

    Consider yourself lucky.

    Adapt and take on a different and more self centered strategy.

    “If you totally bought into the blue pill for most of your adult life as I did, you can’t even tell which desires are your own and which were bound up with whatever system of values you believed would lead to the picket fence and family thing.” . . . . You speak the truth here.

    The white picket fence is overrated.

    At 51, I have put my life back together and now am having the time of my life. . . It’s never to late. . .

    Focus on yourself and positive masculinity. Relax your mind a bit and work on your body, your physical desires. . . . the ladies will come

    A few quotes from Charles Bukowski :

    “The male, for all his bravado and exploration, is the loyal one, the one who generally feels love. The female is skilled at betrayal and torture and damnation.”

    “There are women who can make you feel more with their bodies and their souls, but these are the exact women who will turn the knife into you right in front of the crowd. Of course, I expect this, but the knife still cuts.”

    “The female loves to play man against man. And if she is in a position to do it, there is not one who will resist.”

    “Never envy a man his lady. Behind it all lays a living hell.”

    From Norman Mailer :

    “Because there is very little honor left in American life, there is a certain built-in tendency to destroy masculinity in American men.”

    “Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor.”

    “The highest prize in a world of men is the most beautiful woman available on your arm and living there in her heart loyal to you.”

    My two cents.


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