The Red Pill Balance

Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.

Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.

So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.

Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):

@reloadedbeats

A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.

What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.

In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?

Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.

We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”

Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.

Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.

It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”

No Quarter Given

In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to

When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.

However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.

The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.

And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.

That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.

At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.

Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.

On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.

It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.

By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.

He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.

Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.

No Quarter Expected

I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.

Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.

The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.

Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.

There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.

It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.

Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.

The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?

The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.

It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”

It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.

So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.

I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.

Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.

Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.

What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.

That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……

I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.

The Red Pill Balance

Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.

KFG had a comment to this point:

If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.

This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.

Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.

Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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bookooball
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You are right in the sense that she demonized me to justify her guilt, but you are wrong because she is in fact stealing my offspring. Whether or not it’s intentional is another story.

Moreover, justifying a woman’s decision to flee because he won’t conform to whatever she wants him to be at the time, for whatever reason… is solipism in its purest form. This is why that, even while you are trying, you still shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

Wild Man
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@Yollo – thanks for the feedback. I do have some thoughts on your comments though: 1) “The problem you seem to have with the Red Pill itself is that it is pragmatic truth and guidance for men who make themselves their own mental point of origin. Or it is nothing.” But that is precisely it, I do make myself my own mental point of origin. I always have too…. so you are not quite right about this, I can attest that you can very well be subject to bluepill within a dynamic of putting yourself as your own MPO, and… Read more »

bookooball
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You hit the nail on the head. Suddenly my $70k per year and 1200 square foot home in a gated community isn’t good enough anymore… now it must include: Her terms, her timeframe, as she defines it.

Wild Man
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@Rollo – “That is just a small sampling of what you lose when you remove men’s idealism. Yes, misguided, feminine deluded, feminine manipulated, Blue Pill idealism is a liability that men must overcome or they suffer the consequences, but we lose so much more if we remove that idealism entirely.” That is just so binary you know it’s just plain wrong without even having to thin about it too much. Alot of shit doesn’t neatly fit within redpill Rollo. If you not smart enough to think of the contra-indicators of defining our techno world primarily in terms of a bluepill… Read more »

Wild Man
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@Rollo – ” I gave up on bothering with your attempts to wedge some metaphysical rationalizing of egalitarianism into a Red Pill box.” So there it finally is then – the redpill box. It is condescending as fuck to project your avoidance in de-marking your theoretical boundaries of that box, on me, as weak-minded. Your methods are beginning to point to you as treating this redpill thing as an ideology. You know you have repeatedly avoided answering my questions around the scope of your inquiry (the answers for which are not found in any of the links you provide). So… Read more »

lh
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In case some commenters missed it: Kitten had a really great comment regarding Shit-Tests over at IllimitableMen: http://illimitablemen.com/2014/12/14/the-shit-test-encyclopedia/#comment-8528

“The shit test is an emotional outburst to gauge if our problem is caused by or can be resolved by the man.”

I wish she had more on that level of insight.

Snoman
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@ info junkie-I would add to your comment that some females have been damaged in the worst way, by their fathers. Then an unhealthy marriage/LTR, equals years of destruction.
My opinion is that after half a lifetime of unhealthy relations they have evolved w/in themselves to recognize/respond only to this type of male.

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“Blue Pill Idealism: “Why didn’t you say good morning to me, honey? That’s disrespectful.” Red Pill Filter: With a grin, slap wife’s ass. “That’s for not saying good morning!”” While I get the general thought being expressed by handling things differently now that we are red pill aware. What this also implies to me is that when men are offended they should hide it and put on a smile and just get over it when relating to women. The irony is that when a similar thing is done by a fellow man to upset another man they won’t think twice… Read more »

lh
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@WildMan: As I said last thread I think you are a narcisist (like me). You want the attention and don’t bother to think for yourself but want to further your insight only by means of heated discussion. That is tiresome, especially if your opposing view isn’t very spectacular.

Understanding the RedPill and getting rid of your BluePill thinking is your job, not Rollos.

IAS
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@talprofs: I find it funny that a woman that is apparently married (my interpretation of your LOTR comment), thinks you are a “good person” even though you were apparently willing to enable her straying.
Just figured the woman would consider such a guy a “bad boy” more or less inherently, but I guess that is just me still being idealistic about woman nature.

Not passing my own moral stance, we had a discussion several thread backs about the morality or amorality of banging married women, with Andy and others, using military men serving abroad as one of the examples.

Wild Man
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@lh – no on the narcissism. It’s crazy you would characterize me as not thinking for myself. How could I be concerned about the boundaries/limits of redpill perspective, and interface of redpill perspective with other perspectives if I wasn’t thinking for myself? I didn’t make these discussions heated (until today), others did prior, and that circumstance is tiresome (I am heated now – I’m ticked – I’ve invested some time and energy on this stuff and expected more rigor, and can see now I’m not going to get it here). I’m redpill as fuck. If women aren’t worthy, as in… Read more »

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Women’s desire for men capable of and all too ready for doing evil puts civil society in danger in its very foundation. The problem here is a by far more basic issue and can’t be resolved by just resorting to the individual psychological settings of particular men called BP or by confining to the topic of perfomance burden or any other concept on “gender relations”. It has massive social impacts as is strenghtens men that are basically anti-social and weakens those capable of and willing to attaching and bonding in various dimensions of social life.

Garnet
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A very timely post Rollo. I’ve been lurking on TRM for about a year now, reading as many posts and comments as I can. I’ve learnt a lot from all of you, thanks.

Pinelero
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“They don’t want to have to actually deal with us and how we are and how we see things. If they don’t like it, they feel like they can just run and take our kids. And you excuse her.

It’s terroristic. Really. Get that.” (scribblerg 6/jan 9:46)

Most women like Kitten don’t really get this selfish aspect of women’s cruelty. I’m not an MRA, but I am getting involved in Father’s Rights groups and in groups against parental alienation.

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The problem with hyperagamy is that in its natural context it is not enduring, it has a very finite shelf life, with procreation being the natural outcome. In its unnatural perpetual state (artificial contraception) it is a monstrous hydra that throws the natural order on its head, low birth rates, promiscuity, alienates children from fathers, punishes the just, hardens women’s hearts, destroys families and communities, destroys young males, generates abulia in young men, destroys women’s lives, punishes innocent women etc. There’s not a man alive that isn’t enthralled by the beauty of the feminine essence. In its natural state hyperagamy… Read more »

Tim
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Ever since I internalized the MGTOW mindset, every day I wake up relieved to not be tethered to a woman financially, psychologically or legally. I’m 6′ 3″, well educated, am in the top 15% in terms of accumulated wealth and income, own property, etc. My life is filled with interesting things to do and a peace unlike any other to be found. Once the blue pill brainwashing and social conditioning was undone by studying the MGTOW mindset, all of what used to be life’s gynocentric anomalies became crystal clear. Now I have zero interest in pursuing women and am greatly… Read more »

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@Wild Man: “I’ve invested some time and energy on this stuff and expected more rigor . . .”

“egalitarian-complimentarian . . . procreation-supersession-wise , , ,”

Metaphysician, heal theyself.

@Johny Come Lately: Mastering Judo is an arduous and painful task, the point of which it to be able to engage in it “instinctively” with as little pain as possible.

Ergo Slugg
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“It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality…” Yes, it is. It’s called a delusional mindset. It leads you to engage in an endless quest for the mythical NAWALT. Instead, give up the BS fantasy of finding the perfect Disney Princess who will love you forever for just being yourself, and accept that no woman gives a damn who you are inside, they just want you to be the man that gives them the tingles or the guy with the money – – preferably both. Accept this reality and live a self-fulfilling life. MGTOW Loading...

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@NBTM, I keep reading what you say, and its funny that you “discredit” MGTOW, but you literally embrace all their ideals. You are like that child, and them, “I’m taking my ball and going home.”…You are that man who claims he’s “above it” or “over it” because of your age (52), low T levels, whatever. In essence, you are calling us all “slaves to it all” for “wanting something” better. As Rollo stated, go look at what men’s idealism has created, its fucking wonderful. The Red Pill is about understanding reality versus what is our ideal, and living within those… Read more »

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This post is MGTOW bait, wow. I love the guys who are like, “this is just romantic idealism” – lol. Any man who believes that’s what we are up to here, all I can say is go up to the top of the page and begin reading the Best of Year 1 and 2. After an hour, come back and tell us Rollo is peddling “idealism” of any sort. In fact, dickheads, what he’s peddling is “praxeology” – the same approach as the Austrian economists take to economics which underlies many of the Anarchic ideas you also push but don’t… Read more »

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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Thanks for this article Rollo. I do not believe we disagree on the essence of things. I believe the burden of performance can crash men, or certain men because they want to continuously perform against what they really want to do, that’s why is essential to find something to do that you enjoy doing. But of course as you say: in life you have many roles and some of which you can be a bit more open than others. Nothing that I said in my video should have a link on how men interact with women. I mean realistically speaking… Read more »

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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@Scribblerg

MGTOW videos are a work in progress. Whatever video you find you will not find the answers you are looking for. It is an idea in development. I have distanced myself from it for the reason that they are attacking men and not seeing the essence: which to me is helping men understand themselves better and let them move on with a red pill reality while simultaneously questioning everything.

I started seeing it a long time ago as: each man’s point of view with a rejection of marriage as a standard.

Andy
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“I respected and trusted your opinion at one time buddy – no more.”

@WildMan
lol, to your own detriment. Jesus. There’s no reason to throw Rollo under the bus. When did he ever say women are good for fucks only? You not getting it is the problem. Not everybody else.

Andy
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“Men require functioning institutions in order to qualify for women in a way that is socially advantageous for everyone.” @DividedLine I kind of disagree with you there. If you enter a relationship from the Alpha side of things you can turn it into an LTR fairly easily. Now I would agree that it won’t be sustainable for marriage or kids unless you can step up to the plate and provide better than she can. But if you don’t want kids… ” It’s like you just have to stop expecting things from women and resign yourself to the sad reality.” Watch… Read more »

redlight
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WaPo on fixing women’s sexual desire:

Middle-age moms get a bad rap when it comes to sex. They’ve either lost their sex drive because of hormones, or they’re too consumed with their kids, exhausted from trying to have it all, having body-image issues, or they’re not spending enough “quality” time with their husbands. (Or perhaps they’re too preoccupied being mad at them.)

Those reasons might be true for some wives. But give those mid-life women divorce papers and a new lover or two, and just watch what happens.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2016/01/06/for-middle-age-moms-like-me-divorce-can-be-the-best-aphrodisiac/

SJB
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@Rollo: a very good, very dense article. It bears reading aloud. . I’d suggest the failure of man’s idealism is in the flesh. That is, attempting to manifest an ideal vision in stone or wood has the potential for success; flesh cannot hold the ideal but for a moment – roughly your myth of the quality woman. . What I’ve lost is my understanding of the art of husbandry: knowing what needs to be pruned, what needs to be cleared, what needs to be grafted, what needs to be bred, etc. There was the sense of wonderment—all these living things… Read more »

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@redlight… The bored wife syndrome.

This is just more confirmation for married red pill approach. A little (or lot) of dread, some competition anxiety and she is yours, if you still want her.

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Rollo is a reporter, you read his views, investigations, and comments. He is the finger pointing, he is not the place to where that finger points. You either get past the fear of moving your gaze away from the finger and look into the void it is pointing too, or eventually, you will come to hate the finger, cuz it is not giving you the answers. There are many people on this planet that give you the finger, learn from their observations of life, but always look beyond and discover FOR YOURSELF what the void is trying to teach you.… Read more »

peregrinejohn
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I’ll echo the 1st comment and say that this is exactly what I needed to read, and puts together several threads I’d been trying to reconcile for a while. Brilliant stuff.

cynthia
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@Forge the Sky I’m starting to feel that girls are as lost and confused about how to attract a man as most men are confused about how to attract a woman these days This is accurate. What is often lost in discussions like this is that there is a burden of performance on women as well, but this too has been swept away by modern culture. Obviously, maintaining a pleasant physical appearance is critically important, but the older I get, the more I see that cultivating a gracious and grateful spirit is the number one thing woman have to do… Read more »

Dutchman
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@redlight

LOL

Andrew
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Andrew
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I really think this post ties together a lot of the points of your writing. Men need to understand that it is pointless to look for a definable solution because there is non. The best you can do is work inside this evolutionary framework. And for those of you men hurting with these truths, while you will never be able to find a woman with whom you will be able to fully let down your guard; this was never women’s role. This is other men’s role. You will only ever truly be able to be yourself around other men. So… Read more »

Roused
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Roused
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Scribbler wrote: “The entire idea that we are somehow different on the inside from the outside, that there is this emotional being hidden inside of us is a feminine constructed myth. Sure, we have emotions and we know that being run by our emotions rarely helps us. Men can express their emotions, but wallowing in them is useless – this is childish behavior. Women live in their emotions – does any man really want to ” Nicely put! The longer I live, eat and breath the RP the less childish emotions, tantrums and other wasteful energy is exhibited in my… Read more »

Striver
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Striver
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A man’s got to know his limitations. All men have limitations, it’s part of being a man. We’re the experiments. So most men have a range of things where they excel to where they have absolutely no talent. Now as a man you want to make the best decisions, put yourself into situations where you win most of the time. YaReally gets into this a bit. He hates dancing, won’t do it, but goes to clubs, so if dancing comes up he just tries to minimize it. If a man genuinely is bad at something, just minimize or avoid encounters… Read more »

Looking For Zion
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Looking For Zion
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Ever watch “Dr Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog” Rollo? An amusing but apt illustration of all that’s written in this post. You could probably mine the red pill / blue pill and alpha vs. beta dynamics in it all day.

IAS
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IAS
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Dr Horrible is a great mini-series. Worth watching.

kfg
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kfg
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I have no idea where the idea that men suppress their more tender (i.e. feminine) emotions comes from, other than from women. All I have seen for 50 years is men being told to suppress their masculine emotions. If they’re emotionally all fucked up, there is your reason. If they are torn up over their inability to cry, it’s because they have been told they should cry, but, being men, do not do so as naturally (i.e., at the literal drop of a hat) as women. Carl Jung may get credit for the idea of men getting in touch with… Read more »

Longgone
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Longgone
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Softek,

Glad you could take a break from slayin poon to drop by. Keep on rockin in the New Year!

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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@kfg “‘Roosh . . . like many of the scorched earther guys in the sphere he still clings to the idealistic desire to watch the whole world go critical so we can all rebuild a better society from what’s left of the ashes.’ Never mind the fact that the ashes will be soaked in the blood of billions, with the incel fake MGTOWs and the Roosh followers among the first to die.” This shit always makes me laugh, even if they don’t have any children to worry about, it’s like “dude don’t you have cousins, nieces and nephews, parents, people… Read more »

Andy
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Andy
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“I have no idea where the idea that men suppress their more tender (i.e. feminine) emotions comes from, other than from women.” Yeah… haha. Thank You. I thought I was some defective unfeeling robot for a while there. Not “letting your guard down” in front of women is not the same as not “being yourself.” At least in my case. I also don’t have some deep need to get together with my guy friends so we can cuddle and have a good cry. lol. Okay I guess I’m part of the problem. Sorry… Loading...

Crossphased
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Crossphased
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Man I think this emotional management stuff is key. My dad had it; I only ever saw him break down twice, once at his dad’s funeral, and once when my little brother was trying to destroy his own life. In fact seems like to me that that is alpha and beta at its core: whether life destroys you or you just keep moving on. I’d give my right arm to be able to manage my emotions better; struggled with it all my life. TRP has helped some, especially with what Rollo says about being your own mental point of origin.… Read more »

Random Angeleno
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Random Angeleno
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With respect to idealism: men perform best when they are serving a purpose outside of themselves. That could be raising a family, running a business, religion, defending the country or tribe, being an artist or musician, etc. Some men term any form of idealism to be blue pill and try to tell us we should eschew it entirely, but it does not have to be that way. A man can use his red pill perspective to inform his actions in serving that purpose. So idealism can still very much exist in a red pill perspective even when the predominant culture… Read more »

Garnet
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Garnet
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Off topic, but I’m watching Law & Order SVU. A gangrape victim just confessed to experiencing multiple (involuntary) orgasms. Two female detectives tried to explain it away as a ‘physiological response’.

Then victim asks why she’d never experienced that with her ‘sweet’ boyfriend. That shut the detectives up.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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Comment on idealism, My point is that Rollo and the Red Pill seek to destroy Romantic Idealism, not idealism in general. Men are idealistic and strivers and seek to perfect and create and improve as a way of competing in our society for it’s own aesthetic joy. We also have been collectively been in the business of elevating the human moral condition, and in fact, it’s not too strong to say the Western civilization has the been by far the most successful at doing this. In a sense, it provides a moral ladder for men to climb, which many of… Read more »

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Rollo – I had the thought after reading this post that you are now “done”, that you have explicated all of this to the degree that it can be. This piece was truly a synthesis and culmination of all the wisdom you’ve accumulated. I won’t waste my breath being more effusive, let me close by saying it touched my mind and my soul profoundly.

Back to work!

peregrinejohn
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peregrinejohn
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Oh, I almost forgot: Thanks for the quote! I’m honored.

Jimmeh
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Jimmeh
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For those that are interested, here is a pdf of YaReally’s best comments in a handy book

http://www.mediafire.com/view/v97p3rhw9hanot2/Book+of+YaReally.pdf

https://www.sendspace.com/file/m7tlot

Laxun
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Laxun
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What happens when you don’t even try to meet your burden of performance:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/fashion/weddings/unhitched-divorce-finances.html

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@lh

Wildman seems to be a solipsist more than a narcissist. kfg and I had an interesting set about him recently. Check out http://therationalmale.com/2015/11/20/just-shut-the-hell-up/comment-page-2/#comment-128694

and forward from there. Or just jump to: http://therationalmale.com/2015/11/20/just-shut-the-hell-up/comment-page-2/#comment-128712

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Kitten’s comment on the IL blog is very good. The part redlight quoted looks at shit tests in a different way than I’ve seen it before. Not sure if it’s always the case, but it gives good resolution to the circumstance. Sometimes she might be testing to see if you’re the origin of her issue or its solution. I usually just view women venting issues as her throwing her emotions out there to see how you react to them – in part it’s a way of her pinging off you to see if it’s something she should be worried about… Read more »

The Question
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I think one of the biggest problems people will probably have about this whole notion of a red pill balance is confusing idealism with quixotism, which is a form of cognitive dissonance where person reinterprets everything around him according to an irrationally romanticized vision of things. Recall that early in the novel Don Quixote rides to an inn and comes across prostitutes but through his “lens” they are seen as fair maidens and he treats them as such according to the code of chivalry, an idea even they find ridiculous. Idealism isn’t the same as being irrational, either, nor it… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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@The Question:

He also said: “What will we have conquered? None but ourselves.”

Jay
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Jay
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This is something everyone should know. I started reading this blog only recently after going through pretty much the same ordeal as in the movie blue valentine.

Its depressing really that this is how life really looks after a lifetime of Disney conditioning. At the same time I’m glad that I came to this realization. I hope that more people come to this conclusion before ruining their lives.

Keep spreading the word!

The Question
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@ kfg “He also said: “What will we have conquered? None but ourselves.””

Yes, another good one.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Forge – I pulled something in my hip doing cardio, so no lift tonight and here I am. WildMan’s problems are more fundamental. Here’s my take. Yes, he displays solipsism but really, he’s worse than that in the sense that he poses as someone who wants to discuss/argue/interact. He has no interest in learning, he’s interested in teaching. He’s actually a supreme narcissist. You see, not only are we not real to him, but he see’s himself as a towering intellect, swooping over our heads, laughing at our petty mewling (meanwhile, either your mind or mine can run circles around… Read more »

Striver
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Striver
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Laxun:

“He’s in a band and has a girlfriend. She works a lot and is not currently dating (and is also 57 now.)

Sounds well played by him. Look, if you can swing a chick that will financially support you, go for it.

Artisanal Toad
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There is an element that’s left out of this discussion and that missing piece combines with a confusion as to the proper relationship frame to produce the problem being discussed. MGTOW is thus a reasoned response based on a faulty and inadequate analysis of the problem. The question is not how to fix the problems with women’s behavior, because that’s impossible. The question is how to arrange incentives within the relationship such that women solve their own problems, don’t behave badly and are motivated to give the man what he wants from them. Observe the disconnect: “I can remember thinking… Read more »

AnnoyingGorilla
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@scribblerg
Brilliant comment regarding Niko. I felt rather sorry for the lad, as his words recalled my own mother’s about developing ” a rich inner life” centred around one’s own feelings.
I’m acquainted with a MGTOW, and that man is definitely “his own woman”.

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@scribbler What really galls me most is the incessant demand that we be “open” Funny thing about about 99% of the people that tell me to keep an “open mind” these days: they’re just presenting ideas I once had an open mind, listened to, and dismissed as horseshit for some reason I perceived as legitimate long ago. If their idea now had merit, it would already have occurred to me as I reviewed it in light of genuinely new ideas I’ve heard. Truly new ideas to me on the other hand I readily keep an open mind to and chew… Read more »

Striver
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Striver
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I didn’t have Romantic Idealism for my ex. I expected her to be an equal partner, to love as I loved. Plus the fact that we had three kids together, it’s just common courtesy that you’ll make every effort to make things work. She made no effort whatsoever to make things work. That’s Equalist Idealism. I think most of us would settle for that. Apparently it isn’t true. I’m not sure what idealism would replace that. Men having dominion over women, having the legal power that you’d have over a child or pet, that would fix it. Is that idealistic?… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Gorilla – And Niko is probably as good as it gets in MGTOWland. I found it almost impossible to listen to his lifeless droning. He also tried to engage me on this thread and while I’m sure he’s not a bad guy, I find myself repulsed by men who are not embracing their masculinity and the real world these days. It’s as though I know there is something wrong with them and that they need to be excised from the gang before they infect it with their stupid ideas. My war is with myself now. As I’ve noted, I’ve only… Read more »

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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And this kind of just freaked me out. If it’s too risque for here, delete but this is just so WTF I had to post it.
http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web05/2010/10/8/20/anigif_music-video-has-women-with-dolphins-for-boobs-kin-16185-1286584520-4.gif

SJB
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SJB
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@scribblerg: Dolphins? Penguins? Why? What was the context around the image?

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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Makes me think of “shitting dicknipples”. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to Google that term for images if they’re feeling particularly brave and in need of a shock/laugh.

Pinelero
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Pinelero
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” However, female virtue is mostly based on what she holds in reserve. Men can regain what they have lost to this culture, but we largely cannot. (You can surgically reconstruct your hymen but you can’t fix the emotional damage of casual sex). Women, with their pragmatic survivor outlook, don’t want to understand their own mistakes because there is no way to undo the effects. Better to cling to a fantasy. Our greatest sin, however, is continuing to repeat the lies.”

@Cynthia, what does this mean emotional damage of casual sex. How can casual sex be damaging (assuming no STDs).

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Pinelero

There have been studies correlating high N count in women with reduced tendencies toward long term pair bonding. The exact mechanism is unknown, nor is the causal relation. However, there exists a strong possibility that this mechanism is partly responsible for the steep decline in marriage coinciding with the rise of hook-up culture.

Okami
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Okami
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@Rollo, Even if you are frustrated, that’s no reason to tell NTBM to go fuck himself. That’s very uncalled for to say the least. This place’s commentary has degenerated over the years. There is a stark contrast between the quality of the comment of Year One and that of today. And you, Rollo, your writing has become more convoluted. I see a lot of posturing and many people using expensive words to say nothing of substance or people commenting in a pattern that is not unlike brain farts. Whenever there is questioning or diverging views, a group of fanboys attack… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Okami

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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Okami is a strange bird.

Rollo is too ego invested in his marriage to see past it and what it requires of him. Except for those like 6 posts about spinning plates. And all that stuff he wrote about how men shouldn’t get married in 2011-16. And….just random crap like that which confuses my focus.

Clearly Rollo’s the one with the ego investment here.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@artisinal toad That’s probably the most comprehensive essay of yours I’ve read in defense of polygyny. As usual, it doesn’t sound absurd to me except for the simple fact that nearly no man will succeed at attaining this arrangement. So it’s for an elite few. Fine. I’ll sign up. Sounds good to me, and hell, if I look to girls from poorer backgrounds it may be very achievable for me. But if society accepts this as the norm? Better plan some pretty huge wars to cull the male population a bit. Or the patriarchs may just find themselves the victims… Read more »

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Okami – Are you a MGTOW? Guess what, this ain’t a site where MGTOW ideas and values are considered a good way for a man to go. Why should they be tolerated? Why should Rollo have to endlessly deal with people repeating the same daft crap endlessly and be polite and welcoming to such manginas? Answer: He doesn’t. Men play rough, stop clutching your pearls and try winning an argument with better reasoning and evidence. Ooops — wait, MGTOW doesn’t have any of that… @SJB – The dolphin-tit thing was from a rock video. It’s just one of those things… Read more »

AnnoyingGorilla
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@ scribblerg

It’s the inter-generational manipulation that disinformed and disorientated me for so many years. I should have paid more attention to the actions of others, not their words.
Women that sabotaged their own marriage. Forging their husband’s signature on cheques, running up debts. I couldn’t get over the disloyalty shown. Now I realise it may have been tactic to avoiding losing the breadwinner, playing on his sense of duty toward debt.
‘Every woman for herself.’

zip
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zip
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Okami is perfectly right. It’s starting to become a Cult with fanboyz hermetically locking out the heretics.

AnnoyingGorilla
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https://bloodyshovel.wordpress.com/2015/12/30/men-doing-their-own-thing/

Entertaining read. The hurt feelings in the comments below adds to the merriment.

rugby11
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rugby11
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We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to

Goodnight sensei

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@zip

Is it? Because last I checked, “fanboys” can’t physically force anyone to no longer post here. In fact, the times I’ve seen them threaten it, I’ve called out the impotence of their threats.

You need thick skin here. If you don’t have it, find somebody else to coddle you. That’s not what I come here for and neither should you.

cheupez
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cheupez
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This is morality. The very end of man. Once a man lifts the morality card game over for him. Bye gals.

kfg
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kfg
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@Rugby:

“We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it.”

And you define that someone, a priori, to be a woman. Why do you do that?

Tilikum
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Tilikum
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Personal idealism is simply maintaining whatever level of dignity you thing you deserve. Some have more internal dignity, most have less.

Moralistic mumbo jumbo, any feelings you may have, weird emotionally connective rants, and all the blah blah are extemporaneous regardless of how deeply one of theses autists’ ponders.

The emotion centers of our brains evolved to discern risk. Read a bit on that, get to where your observation of the process changes it, and you get to chose as much or little emotion as you need for the situation.

Very very simple things.

Striver
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Striver
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kfg: Men turn to women because they sometimes view other men as competitors and don’t want to show weakness. Men compete with other men and for women so intimacy can be an issue with either gender. As far as Burden Of Performance goes, Rollo probably does touch on that more because of his married with kids situation. I agree that pre or post marriage with kids, it wouldn’t come up nearly as much. Screw something up with some chick you’re banging? Who cares, get another. Unless you have kids with a chick, you should AVOID gifting her, performing for her.… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“Men turn to women because they sometimes view other men as competitors and don’t want to show weakness.” Whereas, as we all know, women are kind, gentle, nurturing and are particularly empathetic to the lived, weak male experience. No, they turn to women because they have been conditioned to believe, against all the historical and empirical evidence, that without a woman they are alone and that male bonding is gay. Just ask any woman. And though I am loath to admit it, at some level they probably also miss their mommies. And if you don’t have a single male friend… Read more »

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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I find the whining of MGTOW here intolerable because all of you refuse to engage in real argumentation and debate. Fyi, repeating the same argument over and over again isn’t argument, in fact, that’s how women argue. Reasoned debate and argument implies that one is affected by the counter arguments and deals with them in response. Yet I hear the same arguments Rollo presented above presented over and over again. Same thing with Wild Man’s egalitarian gibberish – go back and look and you’ll find that initially, ideas that conflict with Rollo’s and a deep understanding of the Red Pill… Read more »

Pinelero
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Pinelero
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@ Sun W. This is probably a topic already covered or could be (i.e high N count impacts on mating behavior). I’ve been trying to understand this topic to provide advice to my girls. Women seem to be very covert and tight lipped on the subject; there is something they just get that I don’t. Getting advice on women from guys may be problematic in of itself. Is the issue more of a social construct or an actual emotional change as other sites have suggested. Some of the MGTOW vids (Sandman) suggest that women will never really be happy either… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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Is This Thing On?
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No time to keep up with the thread this week, so I apologize if this has already been passed on. I hope Rollo covers it at some point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3zs81q/twitters_newest_trend_wastehistime2016/

newlyaloof
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newlyaloof
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@Scribble, big props on your MGTOW takedown.

How ironic is it that Men Going “Their Own Way” would complain that we men here at TRM choose to go our own way too?

If you are already own your own way MGTOWs, you should not be concerned with any of our ways here.

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . Sandman . . .”

. . . makes up bullshit to fill time as he goes along.

Protip: Never trust anyone imitating Fred McFeely Rogers.

” . . . women will never really be happy either way . . .”

On the other hand, even a stopped clock is right twice a day and blind squirrels find nuts.

Stultus Sum
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@scribblerg

Correct me if I’m wrong, but all the crap we despise about modern women like Radical Feminism, slutty behavior, the rabid focus on imaginary injustices (i.e. rape culture and wage gaps etc.) are simply shit tests on a macro scale, aren’t they?

Macro Shit tests that Blue Pill Men have consistently failed since the 60’s by abdicating their historically dominant role in society.

Am I wrong?

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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Big fight with my wife yesterday. We were in the kitchen talking when the kids was yelling in the living room about something. I yelled out that he needed to be quiet because the baby was sleeping (or something along those lines. I can’t remember) and my wife started talking while I was yelling at the kids (during, like, a brief pause) and when I resumed talking to the kids, she got all mad at me for “interrupting” her. I was super incredulous about it and we ended up having a fight. A few minutes into the fight, she asked… Read more »

Dutchman
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MGTOW seems to me like it shouldn’t need a big “community” or a bunch of explanations. I mean, “How do I NOT date women?????” doesn’t seem like a very hard question to answer lol.

Andy
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Andy
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@Dutchman I think maybe your first problem was emotionally reacting to the kids. I try not to yell at my kids. Falling into *their* frame. I seem to get better results if I just get in their faces, calm them down, shut them up, and tell them to look me right in the eyes. Then I tell them what they are doing wrong in calm/assertive tone and perhaps punish, perhaps not. But yeah, I still do yell still sometimes. lol. So then you get whipped up emotionally, and that whips the wife up emotionally. Then you accidentally fall into her… Read more »

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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@ Andy

I wasn’t emotional with the kids. They were playing video games and it was basically like “Hey you guys need to stop being loud because the baby is asleep and if you wake her up, you’re not going to be allowed to play video games for the rest of the day.”

I only had to yell so they would hear me across the house and over the TV.

kfg
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kfg
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@Dutchman: “Just reading that it comes off like I was completely supplicating and in her frame . . .”

At least you can see it in retrospect. If you aren’t going to do something any more, don’t do that.

“That’s how the air is cleared and we move on from conflicts we’ve had.”

Wrong. That’s how you think you ought to do so. In retrospect you should also be able to see that that’s not how it works.

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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@kfg,

Yeah. I didn’t actually believe it at the time, I was just trying to lead her/pull her into my frame of “this is over now and we move on.”

Andy
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Andy
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“I only had to yell so they would hear me across the house and over the TV.”

lol, so you’re yelling over the other noises to be quiet because the baby is sleeping? I wasn’t there, so I can’t say for sure but yelling can be misconstrued as an emotional reaction anyway. All it takes is just that little twinge of annoyance. Then the wife pings off of that. That’s my take.

Dutchman
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Dutchman
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LOL I’m probably not remembering the whole thing properly, but I think the kids were jumping around and it reverberated through the house, rather than they were making too much noise by yelling. Baby was asleep upstairs.

I hear you on the wife pinging off that as an emotional reaction. It just didn’t occur to me at the time at all that that’s what she was doing.

scribblerg
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scribblerg
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@Stultus – I’m not sure, tbh. I’ve heard that argument made, and yes, the denigration of masculinity, men, boys and fathers has been institutionalized and it feels like a nonstop shit test, but I don’t think we can anthropomorphize society on a large scale. The psychology of a shit test isn’t the same, at least in my experience. @Dutch – Let’s pull you into this because it’s related. Reading your account was like time travel for me – I’ve had those kind of arguments with women before where you get in the middle of them and realize there is no… Read more »

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