The Red Pill Balance

Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.

Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.

So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.

Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):

@reloadedbeats

A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.

What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.

In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?

Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.

We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”

Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.

Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.

It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”

No Quarter Given

In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to

When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.

However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.

The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.

And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.

That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.

At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.

Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.

On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.

It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.

By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.

He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.

Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.

No Quarter Expected

I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.

Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.

The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.

Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.

There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.

It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.

Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.

The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?

The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.

It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”

It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.

So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.

I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.

Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.

Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.

What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.

That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……

I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.

The Red Pill Balance

Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.

KFG had a comment to this point:

If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.

This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.

Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.

Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

807 comments on “The Red Pill Balance

  1. @Dutchman

    Maximize your strengths minimize your weaknesses.

    Your relationship with your children is a great strength. Amp that up. Good parenting is a dopamine input. (or as KFG would say, it makes you feel good). And in the state you are in–a rut–you need as many feel good things as you can get.

    And don’t forget to enhance the masculine in your son and he feminine in your daughter.

    Your weakness: Not socializing well with high quality men and being a girlfriend to other women (which is essentially what you are doing if you are not fucking them. ..and no you shouldn’t be fucking them.)

    You have a masculine/feminine tell. You are being too feminine by hanging out or interacting with the girls rather than the men. And yes you are good at it. You need to work on the masculine. If your wife hates you and wants to ditch you you aren’t going to instill soft dread in her by having girly friends.

    And this is not a criticism–merely and observation–your ability to interact with masculine men and receive their criticism is a reflection of your capacity to receive masculine energy. (e.g. note how you deflect criticism here and emphasize your positives instead voicing about your weaknesses)(Yep, Deida Chapter 10, TWSM book, umm, sorry if I mention it too much.) Some of this may have to do with your relationship to your father.

    So work on that.

    If this doesn’t apply to you or you don’t want to accept it, then consider it general advice to the comments audience.

  2. Cosign Kitten Holiday’s long post on how women divorce. That pretty much describes at least one frivorce I’ve seen in the last couple of years, and guess what? Once the youngest is out of the house and child support ends, she’s gonna be miserable anyway.

  3. @KittenHoliday,

    This is a really fucked up thing to say, but regardless, your testimony about how your divorce went through really made me fucking pissed, like at a deeply rooted, biological level. Fuck chivalry. If you were standing in front of me at the moment I was reading that, I would have punched you in the face several times over.

    You essentially set the example to your children that family is trivial, having two biological parents together really isn’t that important, you have no moral obligations to stay with your wife, or your husband, even if you have children with them; have children with whoever the hell you want, then leave them and have children with someone else; sexual desire is all that keeps a marriage together anyway so when it goes dry just bail and do what the fuck you want. Loves all that matters in the end right? Happiness is God

    I’m seriously sick of seeing women such as yourself who do this fucked up shit, and yet guys just put up with it – even guys in the manosphere – because either (a) they want to fuck you so they go along with the ride or (b) they’re desperate for children and want a relationship. “Oh yeah, she’s an independent woman. I fully support her and her two kids. she can do whatever she wants” – says the cuck with no options.

    Why do folks give women such as this advice? – So she can “self-improve” her way into snagging some unfortunate chump? – And then she writes a blog peppered with good-girl innocence, and then comments here, her comments also peppered with the look-I-want-to-discover-my-femininity-again-and-I-don’t-know-any-better vibe that I see in many redpill women of late who fucked up badly in the past and are too afraid to shoot themselves in the fucking head. Don’t we advise against marrying or dating women such as this? – Women who fucked up and think they can just be forgiven because “hey I just didn’t know any better!” – Fuck that. Do we give reforming pedophiles the “self-improvement” needed to meet younger, more open children? – Do we give reforming single mothers the “self-improvement” needed to meet younger, more open men?

    Look, Kitten, I’ll tell you from the perspective of a kid who grew up with a mother who fucked up just as you did. Your kids aren’t gonna do any better just because you are around. You’re children aren’t going to “benefit” from you specifically being their personal ATM machine other than that they might be able to get into a half-descent college – that’s it. Peaceful divorces negatively effect children just as badly as vicious divorces do. You’re direct presence and parenting no longer has any value to your kids; it did when you were married, but now that you are divorced your presence doesn’t mean shit. You might as well abandon them; maybe they’ll learn to handle adversity better. One cannot build self-confidence with struggle.

    I remember my mother trying to act all innocent and motherly after the divorce (“I love you son so much! You are such a good boy!”), and all I could think of was “one of these days you will be in a fucking nursing home, dying alone, surrounded by dying people who don’t give a shit about you” – and it was a very peaceful divorce nonetheless. I often wonder why is it that parents are under no obligation to honor the vows they made towards each other in marriage, yet children are still obligated to respect the parents who break those vows? – Fuck that.

    Now, to summarize my disorganized points, you need to either:

    (a) accept that you offer no value to your children other than your money; and/or
    (b) accept that any man who chooses to marry or intimately associate with you is doing so out of either desperation or ignorance; and/or
    (c) Accept you fucked up badly, get over your fear of death and shoot yourself in the head.

    You will probably not do any of the above, and you will probably snag some unfortunate chump (I’ve got a step dad who fits that label), and you will probably do whatever you can to persuade yourself to believe that my experiences are unique (statistically that are not) and that your children will grow up just fine. In all honesty I really hope they do, and I really hope you find a good man, that way you and your children can be yet another fine data point in support of the feminist notion that family is not at all that important.

    Marriage is a fucking joke.

    @scribblerg

    How the hell did you go about fucking 100 girls by being a natural? – I’m not denying the possibility. But were you going out every weekend? – Were you hitting on every girl that crossed your eye? – What was your gameplan? – I don’t really know any exceptional naturals. Your advice would be great for me since my Game is half-shit.

    1. @averagechump

      Thanks for your comments. I really can’t blame you for the level of anger you feel. I feel it too. In a divorce everyone loses. It’s really a terrible situation that can lead to emotional and financial bankruptcy as well as a host of other problems for the individuals, the family unit and society. I see and feel the effects of all these repercussions too.

      The intent of my long post on divorce was not in any way to excuse people of their choices or actions. There are consequences for everything and sometimes they are very harsh.

      My intention was to communicate how I see a woman, her family and friends getting caught up in a whirlwind of toxic, negative energy. It’s an addiction to drama, self-righteousness, protection of ego. Frankly it’s pride. But because of the cultural environment where a woman’s “candy coated empowerment” is celebrated and promoted at the expense of her actual well-being, the well-being of her family, etc. the process takes on a life of it’s own. It’s disgusting. I hate it as much as you do and while I am thankfully not so desperate and suicidal as to consider any of the options you laid you to me, I have felt pain at my situation, for myself and for all those affected by it.

      I could argue that a part of the “mission” of my blog and the message that I have taken up to encourage “authentic empowerment through truth” vs. Candy coated instagramed #hashtag empowerment that is destructive, is to shine a light on these patterns, these forces in society as well as the internal motivations within women that propel them toward these situations and this pain. I do not believe women are victims. That notion disgusts me. But I do think that women have been tremendously misled by society, by other women about what it really is to be strong. Self-control, self-respect, self-determined, confident, in tune and accepting of both their sexuality and their desires. Aware of how they can be steered off course for what’s best for them by both the insincere, harmful agenda of culture to divide the sexes and make them adversarial and also of the ways their own hormones can steer them off course.

      Testosterone is a hell of a drug. I have read how men feel, the sexual urges, the physical urges. We have found some healthy outlets for men. Men are taught how to manage their sexual urges in a healthy way. Society reinforces that and it works. We have found healthy outlets for a man’s physical urges. Sports, weight lifting, athletics. I strongly believe men need physical release to clear their heads. This is why I have my son in physical sports with fantastic coaches who give him far more than just a pasttime.

      Women do not, currently have healthy understanding of how their hormones and drives and desires affect us. I am not a man but when I think of a man’s drives they run in a straight line toward resolution. Sexual drive –> sexual urge –> sexual intent —.>sexual release.

      When I think of a woman’s drives, the don’t have a straight line. They are more complicated. Without an understanding of what drives us, what we want, what we are looking for, we don’t know what comes after the —> arrow. We don’t know what will relieve it. As you well know, our own confusion can come out as drama, crazy making. We don’t WANT to feel emotional chaos. We are desperate for a release.

      I don’t want to go on too long but I look for answers to this as well as healthy ways to find resolution. A healthy resolution for a man’s sexual desire is to have a mutually fulfilling relationship with a woman. I firmly believe a mutually fulfilling relationship with a man can resolve a lot of the chaos women feel. I’ve taken it upon myself as my passion, my mission, my whatever to try to articulate this. I’m an older woman. I’m in a loving, mutually fulfilling relationship. I’m not going to have more children. I’m not in the sexual market anymore. I have no cards in the game. But I have a responsibility as a woman to be a positive influence, a mentor to younger women. I don’t see other women standing up to the task.

      I may not be the best at this, but right now I don’t see anyone else making an attempt. If this message can catch on, maybe someone else with more experience and perspective will take the helm. Maybe there’s room for multiple voices. Time will tell. It’s worth the effort anyway.

      As for the sexy pictures I post, and the erotica and the other sexually charged content. One aspect of my mission is sexual in nature. Not in an attention seeking way, the sexy pictures are never of me. But they do get attention which can potentially, hopefully? bring readers to my sites. If I post a little sexy thing that gets shared, another woman or man might be curious and read a little. Plus I find them fun and sexy, so why the hell not?

      My selfies are actually pretty plain. I’m not promoting ME, but I am promoting my thoughts, my ideas, my vision. Not everyone wants it. But the few who do, thank me. The other reason I post the sexy pictures is because another one of the many ways women are misled is in their sexuality. Storytelling is an effective way to communicate. Giving women advice, straight out, rarely works. By rarely, I mean never. Ha. But, if you tell a good story, get emotional engagement, carry her along and make the message resonate on an organic level, she will start to think and imagine. If you put her in the shoes of the character, she will identify with her. If that character is healthy, of high value, but still fun and sexual and fair and honest with herself, the reader tries on that feeling. Sometimes it sticks.

      Life is an experiment. I don’t even know how to make money on my blog. I do this because it gives my life meaning, it adds value to my life and from talking to women who have had a change of heart, have grown, have seen themselves in a new light and then decided to make amends for their bad choices, it appears my blog also has value for others.

      I’m just over here living my life and I wish you the best. I would personally love it if we could some day find a way to funnel this anger about the frivorce, fracture of the family, the way culture creates a toxic antagonistic dynamic between the sexes into something better. That’s my hope. And we can’t get there until everyone is aware of where we stand. Men know the reality of these cultural shifts, they are shouldering the majority of the pain. Women are still largely in the dark. I’m trying to be the light.

      Have a great day,
      @KittenHoliday

  4. Hey, fuck you, Rollo! Per your recommendation I watched Blue Valentine. I cringed through the whole fucking thing. I’m reading some comments just to get the Blue Pill stink off me. I guess it hit a soft spot.

    In all fairness, it really did honestly show men’s BP idealism vs women’s contempt and disgust for it in their opertunism. It wasn’t too long ago that I thought if I was taking care of my family that I’d be loved and appreciated for it. I am just starting to break out of the anger phase. As a fan of Atlas Shrugged, I related to MGTOW in my anger and just wanted to watch the world burn. As I’m beginning to accept my burden of performance with the intent of doing it for myself, I’m splitting from my nihilism.

    My biggest question now is whether or not a wife can legitimately check back into a marriage. She’s been very convincing in telling me lately that she’s seen the error of her ways in her contempt for me, especially as I’ve changed. However, I can’t help but think her sudden change of heart is either an opertunistic step towards a frivorce or a realization that she doesn’t have the backup options she originally thought. Either way, not sure if it’s just postponing the inevitable or if things can legitimately be turned around like a couple men discussed on here.

    Anyways, thanks for all you do on here! While often painful, it’s helped me a lot.

  5. I mentioned a couple weeks ago that the end of my daughter’s two year serial monogamous relationship with a blue pill guy came to and end a year ago (good thing) after they watched Blue Valentine. Heheh.

    Guys should watch it and don’t be the character Dean.

    Woodchippers,

    “However, I can’t help but think her sudden change of heart is either an opertunistic step towards a frivorce or a realization that she doesn’t have the backup options she originally thought. Either way, not sure if it’s just postponing the inevitable or if things can legitimately be turned around like a couple men discussed on here.”

    That is a very good sign in my opinion. Lack of contempt that is. If contempt exists, the relationship is doomed. Without it, it has a chance. That’s positive.

    She will have extinction bursts. Contempt will come up in bursts. Avoid her having contempt for you and you having contempt for her.

    Next step, work on admiration and respect. Her for you. Be admirable and work on doing things that garner respect. Without leaning into her like Dean in Blue Valentine. Have a mission statement for yourself and be purposeful.
    And work on game. All aspects of game are fungible and work in married man monogamous game.

  6. @Kitten Holiday

    “Women do not, currently have healthy understanding of how their hormones and drives and desires affect us. I am not a man but when I think of a man’s drives they run in a straight line toward resolution. Sexual drive –> sexual urge –> sexual intent —.>sexual release.

    When I think of a woman’s drives, the don’t have a straight line. They are more complicated. Without an understanding of what drives us, what we want, what we are looking for, we don’t know what comes after the —> arrow. We don’t know what will relieve it. As you well know, our own confusion can come out as drama, crazy making. We don’t WANT to feel emotional chaos. We are desperate for a release.”

    You were doing fine up until you got that last sentence wrong. You (the feminine) don’t want a man’s release. You want to be filled up, not emptied.

    The essential masculine ecstasy is in the moment of release from constraint. (e.g. facing death and living through it, succeeding in (and thus being released from) his purpose, in competition, and of course in La Petit Mort.

    At this point I’m supposed to be concise and tell it in my own words (I’m committed to better posting here), but as an extinction burst (plus my pressure cooker heirloom bean soup just finished and I’m impatient) let me just cut an paste from Deida’s TWSM. :

    The feminine, on the other hand, is not seeking freedom, but love. A woman’s bliss is not in emptiness, but in fullness. Her means is not release, but surrender. This is why a woman is upset when a man begins snoring after orgasm. He has finally achieved, in post-ejaculative emptiness, the blissful freedom from stress he has been seeking all day, one way or another. She, however, is hoping to experience love and fullness through sex, and a snoring man just doesn’t do it for her.

    The feminine seeks fullness and abhors emptiness. She will fill her empty shelves with nicknacks, seashells, and pebbles collected from special places. When she does not feel full of love, she seeks to fill herself with ice cream, chocolate, or conversation, rather than empty her stress through TV or ejaculation, as men often do. Her dark side enjoys the emotional aggression in soap operas and romance novels, rather than the physical aggression of boxing matches and porno movies. She longs to fill her sense of spiritual emptiness by surrendering her heart and being filled with love. Her basic means toward spiritual unity is surrender into the devotional fullness of unbounded love, rather then breaking through the fear of ego-death into the unconstrained infinity of absolute freedom.

    In the end, the feminine search for love and the masculine search for freedom reach the same destination: the unbounded and infinite ground of being who you are, which is both absolute love and freedom. But until you finally relax into the place you always are, your woman will continue to surrender—to you, chocolate, and shopping—in the hope of being filled with love, and you will continue to release yourself—through television, orgasm, and financial success—in the hope of being emptied of stress into unconstrained freedom

    1. @SJF
      Thank you for that comment. I actually love that explanation and that actually is more in line with some of my other thinking about women and femininity wherein I believe two of our basic needs are security and reassurance. That speaks to the comfort and fullness described in the Dieda quote. I’ve just ordered the book and am excited to dive in.

  7. @Kitten

    That is an interesting comment. You are still an insufferable cunt, and the time you spent writing that comment could have been spent doing something more productive, like killing yourself, but that is neither here nor there. lolollogo

    In all honesty, it is a real pity that women such as yourself have been misled and that their children have to pay for it. Although I respect the goal of your blog in being a guiding light for other fucked up shivved women similar to yourself, I doubt it will have a positive change on any dedicated reader. Soviet Russia didn’t fall to feminist ideals post 1917 because of the changing of the culture at large – it fell due to a handful of ideologues taking control of the leadership of the country, resulting in new laws that would incentivize high divorce rates and promiscuity. The same thing occurred with this country, except with the Pill thrown into the mix. It is all a matter of politics, technology and biology – it is a very complicating thing. If I were you I would put some time not just reading here but also checking out Roissy’s blog, Dalrock’s blog and several of the older, original manosphere websites and archives, such as HawaiianLibertarian, UnmaskingFeminism and No-Maam – although I’m sure a bunch of people have given you this advice already. The red-pill men’s reddit is good, but it is pretty watered down; and the red-pill women’s reddit is a fucking mess, filled with more hamstering than God’s own pimp hand can subdue.

    Now, I am wondering, from what you already know about the politics, philosophy and biology of intersexual dynamics from reading manosphere material, what is the specific, healthy message that you think you are giving to young woman? – How are you helping them in a way feminists are not? – Let’s consider the text below…

    “Life is an experiment. I don’t even know how to make money on my blog. I do this because it gives my life meaning, it adds value to my life and from talking to women who have had a change of heart, have grown, have seen themselves in a new light and then decided to make amends for their bad choices, it appears my blog also has value for others.”

    None of the above means shit unless the advice you give is factually correct. It “giving your life meaning” (what the fuck does that even mean?) does not make the content of the information you provide necessarily true. My position is that the real lesson these women are learning is that one can fuck up royally in the past (which you did), “rediscover” her sexuality and femininity after her fuck up (which you did), and then get on with her life as if nothing occurred (which you are doing right now). “Look at me! – I rediscovered my femininity!” is the shit I am hearing. Many women join the Women’s Studies clans, and they in turn have a change of heart, experience growth, begin to see themselves in a new light, and then decide to make amends for their “bad choices”, resulting in the very consequences and effects you and I are forced to deal with today. So it appears manipulative feminists can have value for others as well. Go figure.

    Put it simply, at this moment your actions speak louder than the words you post on that blog, and it is clear your actions are covertly muttering to others that one can act like an insufferable cunt, make a simple change by reading blogs, then get away with it Scott free (and I know deep down you are thankful you get to getaway in such a manner). It doesn’t matter what you say. In every blog post and in every helpful comment to some recovering feminist cunt that you write, the aforementioned message is what you are inherently conveying. It is best that you quite your blogging ambitions, stick to reading, and become an old nasty recluse. Just as the relationship with your children is trivial after your divorce, so is the advice you give to confused, recovering feminist women. You can go on living your life, but whether you like it or not, you are a feminist success story. That is the message you are communicating to others. We women can still fuck up and get away with it.

    Fucking shoot yourself, and have a great day!
    @averagechump

  8. @kitten

    Yowch! Try not to take anything personally. We’ve got a lot of damaged dudes around here.

    @dutchman

    I totally forgot about this book. I don’t even remember how I found it, but you should definitely have your wife read it. It’s basically a story about a woman that is about to get divorced and it kind of explains men, and how wives should treat their husbands and sons. I really think it might help you considering the situation. It’s kind of religious, but the message is legit. @kitten if you haven’t read it you should take a gander.

    http://issuu.com/bouga/docs/secrets_of_fascinating_womanhood

  9. @averagechump
    January 16th, 2016 at 6:19 pm

    Congratulations! You just won a prize.

    Most moronic comment in the last 4 years.
    6:19 on a Saturday night. Couldn’t you have waited till after Midnight?

    Kitten’s writing skills are impressive. Her red pill understanding and her expressions of it are greenhorn. But she admits to it in her writing and it is obvious that she is trying to get her legs. For her, there is a lot of gold in them thar’ manosphere blogs and a red pill girl (I think she like’s it) is going to mine it for the distillation of how to best serve the red pill hypergamy (note: that is not a dis. It is OK for any one team to advance the ball to best serve it’s narrative).

    So ignore him Kitten. You are sincere and have an impressive voice in writing. You may be inappropriate to the audience or wrong, but don’t be inhibited here by dicks like chump.

    And you can be most served by doing due diligence in understanding what Rollo has posted before over 14 years and >400 essays’s. The thing is he is so prolific, and is so skilled that he has this unique habit of not repeating himself in a new essay. And he get’s exasperated to those women that can’t follow along and talk to the audience based on what has been elucidated for the past 4 years.

    You, Kitten show some promise. Live up to it.

    And ignore average chumpy.

  10. @SJF

    I appreciate the detailed, honest feedback. If white-knighting makes you feel like more of a badass and helps you get laid with Kitten I say go for it!

    Good luck with the baby duck,
    @averagechumpboy

  11. Heh Average

    Stop being a dick.

    No white knight here. I call them as I see them.

    You are not quite astute to understand that I am not sucking up to Kitten who happens to be the most appropriate women commenter I have seen in awhile. As attuned to trying to keep up with the flow as any. With the emphasis on trying. (And she shouldn’t try hard to qualify to the commenters here, she has done fine so far. To her: Don’t qualify. Be real. We will tear you apart if you don’t have a clue who your audience is or if you do not digest Rollo’s body of work and debate on it’s merits rather than on how you feel, or how the feminine imperative should merit.)

    She (Kitten) has heart and skill in writing and she tries hard. Props also to Liz who being an INTJ will always be in my cognitive heart. Lee Lee is quite also a most appropriate red pill woman too, as she digested Deida’s book and honored her husband the better for it. Dragonfly was also sweet but conflicted.

    And Kitten, I’m a married whole-heartedly monogamous man with no desire to suck up to you. (but that doesn’t mean that Game is not going on).

    I get laid as often as I want but don’t have any desires for any woman other than my wife of 25 years. She’s very attractive and has high self esteem and is a wonderful woman who, with me, provided for my wonderful 23 y.o. daughter and 21 year old son. So there is that. But my wife is a unicorn and I am an inscrutable mastermind. (and my wife has a shit-load of cats).

    So be at ease–the commentariat. And STFU chumpy. White knight my ass. You saw a TRM meme avenue and you took it because you are an idiot. Women are’nt the enemy, they are a complementary asset to a masculine male that has the capacity to fill them up with love. Before they get released from constraint, of course.

    I don’t suffer fools gladly.

    And I don’t think women aren’t delightful when they want to be.

    And go jack off chumpy.

  12. @SJF

    Badass comment. A lot of good AMOG stuff in their buddy. You’re a real AMOG yourself. What I thinks most badass about you is that you say “No white knight here. I call them as I see them” – then you continue to go about white-knighting like its what your father bred you for. That’s some good Game. I forget which manosphere overlord advocated sucking up to women you do not know and who do not care about you? – Was it Roissy? – maybe Roosh? – You’ll have to remind me since your so good at it.

    “I get laid as often as I want but don’t have any desires for any woman other than my wife of 25 years. She’s very attractive and has high self esteem and is a wonderful woman who, with me, provided for my wonderful 23 y.o. daughter and 21 year old son. So there is that. But my wife is a unicorn and I am an inscrutable mastermind. ”

    Thanks for qualifying yourself to me. I’m flattered. Maybe we can get together sometime and AMOG each other off in the bathtub. You can try to AMOG me off and I can try to AMOG you off. @Kittens can join and watch, since I know the qualification above was also meant for her as well (Psst! This is just between us man but quit hiding your balls bro and just tell her you like her! She’s pretty cute, dude and she’s probableez around your age! Itzz no big deal! She’s only got two kids in tow! Your wife’ll never know!). The other redpill women are not invited.

    “I don’t suffer fools gladly”

    Dude . . . That’s some badass shit. Serious question. How can I be as badass as you? – Do I need to suck up to more women? – Do I need to brag about how good I am at getting laid, without evidence, online to strangers, which is what you pretty much do? – Tell me bro, I’m desperate for the secret that only you, the neighborhood badass, must know!

    Sincerely your neighborhood asshole,
    @averagechumplobo

    1. All,
      I would have responded sooner after reading Averagechump’s comments but I only had my phone with me until today and then I had to stop in the middle of writing to make lunch and figure out how to record the football game for my boyfriend.

      I appreciate the concern for how I would respond to Averagechumps comments. It’s a reflection of the caliber of men here that they would say something to reassure me that you are all not like him. Thank you. However, I do want to reassure you that you don’t need to worry about me in the future.

      Rollo communicated clearly that this place pulls no punches and I was prepared for that. I also knew that after he made that comment some beta rat would be chomping at the bit to attack me as a piss poor way to make a grab for status and approval from Rollo. With Rollo’s keen eye for human nature, I’m sure this was far from a surprise to him as well. Averagechump simply took the bait. Like a rat.

      “Let’s him and her fight.”

      Averagechump,
      I want to thank you for being the rat. You played your role to a T. Your tantrum gave me the opportunity to write that lengthy response where I was able to share my sincere intentions my blog with this community. Without your varment-like attack on me, it would have been wholly inappropriate and self-promotional for me to write at length about myself and my goals with this community. The savageness of your stupid post put a couple chips in my corner to permit me to say something I wanted to say. Because no one expects a rational human to simply ignore such disgusting accusations. Not only that, I’m sure everyone read every single word of what I wrote, because we are all curious as to how other people will respond to conflict and attack. It’s human nature. My words may have never before been read by such attuned and receptive readers.

      While I addressed that post to you, chump, the message wasn’t to you. It was for the other men who are in this community truly trying to improve themselves and who might understand the ways in which a dynamic conversation between men and women could help all of us. I 100% agree that I can’t give advice to men on how to be men. But some of these men here have daughters, sisters, friends who might benefit from a new feminine voice with near perfect pitch ringing out ever so softly and lovingly in the garbage feminist cacophony. I say near perfect because I’m growing, but I know my voice has clarity and is resonating with women. I have developed my voice with both the assistance and resistance of men. I’m open to criticism and feedback and that is exactly what has helped me grow.

      But like I said, my comment was not to you, and neither is this one. I wrote you off the minute you announced yourself as a petulant child by calling me a cunt. As you said in your reply later you don’t need help, and that is because you don’t want help. You are beyond help because you are not here to improve yourself but to validate your anger. You are a lost cause by your choice. And you are a filthy rat, so, when Rollo threw out a crumb you greedily grabbed for it with your ratty little typing fingers.

      Rollo commented after you did but did not address your tantrum not because he approves of you, rat, but because he approves of your tantrum. It was a set-up for me, to see if I would freak out and go bonkers confirming that I can’t hang with this community. I understand other women have jumped in the comments and then reacted or over-reacted negatively when they were treated in the same language and fashion the men here treat each other. The way men talk to each other when women aren’t around (presumably, we all know there are lurkers).

      Now, I get to tell you all even more about myself which would be totally inappropriate had Averagechump not played the ratl so enthusiastically.

      I can hang. I may not always like what I read and I may not always agree with it, but I respect communities like this and the men in them and admire the work you have all done and have been doing to improve yourselves and provide accountability and support for each other.

      My mentor, seven years ago, invited me to participate in his male only forum. That is where I learned to differentiate what is real from what is conditioning and social garbage. And to me, that is a red pill mentality, but maybe I’m wrong. That’s how see it. Maybe I need to create my own word. I’m open to that.

      I couldn’t know, but there’s a chance some of you have also learned from this amazing man. There’s a chance Rollo has as well. There a chance some of you recognize me from that forum but because it is a confidential forum you are not outing me. Hi!

      I’ve learned that the guidance of men is an amazing gift, but to learn from it I have to understand that y’all talk different from me! I listen for the intention, I listen for meaning, I don’t get caught up in the banter.

      I worked in a male dominated industry for the first part of my career. I was quiet and obedient, helpful and never got in the way, which means I was invited everywhere and heard everything.

      Additionally, I was raised with very strong men in my life. Two very powerful grandfathers, a strong, masculine, loving dad, and all their associates who were also unapologetically masculine and strong. Part of their masculinity was a love for their women. I have trust in this love men have for women. And I believe for the most part you all REALLY wish women would step up to the plate and show more value and respect for ourselves than we have been doing. I’m actually trying to do that and trying to inspire other women to do that too because I believe women are amazing but unfortunately, selling ourselves short. But we do need constructive feedback from you men. I have a developed an ability to listen and hopefully translate some of this male-speak into something the ladies will be open to hearing to improve their own lives and relationships. That’s my intention.

      Back to the point. Can I hang? Yes, I can hang in a variety of social situations, including this one. Will I always be right? Hell no, probably more wrong than right, actually but that’s okay, I am like most people and generally learn the hard way, through my mistakes. But how do I know I can hang?

      Story time: when I first started getting active on Twitter last summer, I was scrolling through my feed and saw a bunch of angry tweets about Roosh and his article about legalizing rape. I read it. Then I read more of his blog then I read Return of Kings.. Because of my history, upbringing, education and experiences I ignored the “banter” and the spectacle that he includes in his writing for effect and was drawn to some of the messages and the intention of his articles. I was curious where this was coming from. I liked his writing and I was fascinated by this world of PUA and game that I’d stumbled on. I knew that there would be a lot I could learn. I learned a lot from reading Roosh, then Cernovich and others. While, I knew that in every group there will be some rats, I also knew that there was also a lot of “locker room talk” so I filtered out the manspeak and pulled out meaning and value from their writing. I was reading for the meaning and intention.

      When Roosh announced his State of Man tour, I immediately bought a ticket and flew to NYC to attend. I booked a hotel, I packed a bag. I went. By myself. Before hand, Roosh expressed that due to some distractions at his previous events, as a woman, I may want to reconsider attending. I respectfully asked permission to please listen to the lecture and assured him that I would not be a disturbance. I wanted to listen and learn. I offered that I would leave for the Q&A to give men their male space as I believe it is important for them to have that. They were paying customers, after all, and that was part of the service Roosh was offering.

      Learning my character and my intentions were good, Roosh said that wouldn’t be necessary and gave me full permission attended both the lecture and the Q&A.

      When I got there, I was roundly resented and treated with great suspicion and contempt by the attendees (not by Roosh) as soon as I walked in, as expected. But “I was quiet and obedient, helpful and never got in the way.” Following the lecture and Q&A, there was a social hour where I was grilled by the attendees, one by one about my intentions. They were all suspicious and even angry. I knew I had entered their space uninvited but I meant no disrespect. We talked openly. They asked me pointed questions which I answered honestly and openly. Some of them went off to research me and my blog to make sure I wasn’t a reporter. I passed their tests.

      Not only did I pass their tests but I’d proven myself worthy of inclusion and was invited to dinner with a group of them where we continued our meaningful conversations about masculinity, relationships, etc.

      As many of you know, the “reputation” of men who study red pill, game and pick up is very different from the reality. Many of you are brilliant, top of your fields, Type A, driven. Many of you didn’t find Rollo and game because you had a perceived deficiency in yourself, rather you saw an opportunity to be more, better, the best. I earned the respect of these men not only because of who I am but also because of who they are. These men had true confidence and self-respect, were genuine and authentic and as such were able to recognize these traits in me.

      If cute little old me can walk in that room filled with I think it was over 40 men and hold my own, I’m betting I can hold my own in this community too. .

      Last point. I know I’m going on and on but Averagechump basically handed me the mic and I’m not the kind of person to shy away from a golden opportunity.

      What Andy and SJF did was not white knighting. White knighting is a desperate grab for affirmation from someone whom the “knight” deems is his superior. It is a reflection of low-self esteem and low confidence. What Andy and SJF did was Alpha. It was dominance. It was an expression of the high value they see in themselves and this community. As high value men, they would not want to associate with rats. Finding value in this community and in Rollo and the men who contribute here in good faith, they were protecting their investment in this prized community. Their posts were “correcting poor behavior.” This correction had two intentions. Not only were they spanking the child who misbehaved, they were also demanding that the environment here continue to meet their high standards. As such they will not permit rats to treat others without respect because it reflects poorly on the group. Disrespectful rats reduce the caliber of the community as a whole and if not checked could erode the value in their investment. When you have dignity, class and self-respect you don’t go slumming. Rats turn castles into slums.

      Thanks very much for reading. I genuinely look forward to getting to know you all better and to learning more from everyone here, especially Rollo.

      http://bit.ly/1U53tb9

      @KittenHoliday

  13. @ K.H.

    That book came out in 1997 and when I read it originally over a decade ago I was pissed that it took a better man than I was at the time to actually just get it and use it for relationship power. I’m much better now and it is eerie how proto-typically red pill it is with it’s illustration of a man’s way, dealing with women, working with masculine–feminine polarity, what women really want, a man’s dark side (which is really not so bad, as long as a man understands it) and how a man can use feminine attractiveness for positive energy.

    It really shines for enhancing one’s energy while in a stable monogamous relationship, which is something quite rare in the manosphere due to societal times. Married monogamous relationships are quite the norm in my neck of the woods.

    Another woman commenter LeeLee found it quite helpful in grounding her feminine moods in her relationship for the better.

    Rollo has mentioned (although I can quite recall the essay) that really all women are red pill. It is just that they can’t understand or don’t want to admit to their evo-psych ploys to advance their dualistic sexual strategy.

    In the cold light of Sunday afternoon, I’ll white knight for you (….and not that you need it….) if you stay with the conversation as an alleged red pill aware woman that isn’t afraid to fess up to the feminine strategy and actually advocate for men in a this man’s space. Masculine–feminine relationships are not a zero sum game (a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant’s gain (or loss) of utility is exactly balanced by the losses (or gains) of the utility of the other participant(s)).

    Thanks.

  14. Fuck off, Kitten. You are deluding yourself if you think you are in any way, shape, or form part of the solution. You are a terrible role model to other women and to your children. You’re a slut who shows no intention of marrying and conducting yourself like a respectable woman. This is a board for men who’ve been battered by cunts like you and here you come to steal attention, gather readers, and followers. You think it’s all about you? Well, not here, bitch. It’s about them. So sit back, shut up, and stop embarrassing womankind.

  15. @Kittens

    That was a really good comment. Here are a few things for you to consider:

    (1) This is the internet.

    (2) You are taking your “red-pill awakening” way too seriously.

    (3) I don’t know Rollo personally. So it wouldn’t matter if I was in his favor or not.

    (4) You are a women who destroyed her family and gleefully got away with it – that makes you a shit person and a feminist success story. period. Nothing you do or say can change that. You lived like a feminist then and you live like a feminist now. All I’m saying is that if you truly regretted your past foolish ways (i.e. weren’t gleeful about it) you would do the right thing and kill yourself (read 2).

    (5) Not being “alpha” isn’t really that big of a deal. Alphaness is one of the most debated aspects of the manosphere. Some would say it is nearly impossible to be an alpha male. Read this to know more: http://therawness.com/the-myth-of-the-middle-class-alpha-male-part-1/

    (6) Being a beta isn’t really that bad either. Beta’s are pivotal towards developing a strong, healthy nation. Without dirty beta rats such as myself you wouldn’t have been able to type that elegant comment you just made.

    (7) You boast about having all of these masculine influences in your life and yet you still turned out to be a shit woman. I guess being a “masculine male” doesn’t mean anything when it comes to properly rearing your children.

    (8) Andy isn’t a white-knight. SJF, in this case, absolutely is. He blindly praised your average writing (It’s so so so impressive!) while blindly defending your honor from a bad guy such as myself — all while barely even knowing you!

    (9) You partook in the manosphere world because you enjoyed the idea of strange masculine men validating you. You wanted the attention, and the attention is what you have been given, so you gleefully come back for more.

    (10) “And I believe for the most part you all REALLY wish women would step up to the plate and show more value and respect for ourselves than we have been doing” – Won’t happen at large until the Laws and culture change. Laws and culture don’t change with a fucking blog – they change because of violence. It is violence you should be advocating, not “discovering your sexuality”

    (10) “If cute little old me can walk in that room filled with I think it was over 40 men and hold my own, I’m betting I can hold my own in this community too” – What were you expecting them to do? – Rape you? – How the hell is walking into a room full of men and “holding your own” an accomplishment? – Strippers do that shit all the time and it doesn’t mean a single thing.

    (11) You keep talking about self-improvement yet you don’t even know what the hell you are self-improving towards. What is your end goal, Kittens? The Christo-manosphere women have the end goal of being more Godly women; the Dissident Right women have the end goal of preserving western culture. But what is your end goal? – To become more feminine? – To have more “alpha men” willing to put up with your bullshit? – You are basically just a second/first wave feminist. The same piss, just in a different bottle.

    (12) Rats don’t take bait, Fish do you dumb bum. “I’m a beta fish” is what you meant to say. Nothing wrong with being a beta fish.

    (13) I come here for self-improvement all the time, but unlike yourself I am aware that no one really gives a shit.

    My advice:

    (a) Abandon your second and first wave feminist beliefs.
    (b) Find a better goal beyond “becoming more feminine” and helping women “discover their sexuality”

    I really hope my comment helps!
    @averagechump

    1. @Averagechump

      (2) You are taking your “red-pill awakening” way too seriously. – Learning to see reality vs. delusion saved my life in no uncertain terms. I know my life has no value to you, but it means a lot to me. I’m not taking it seriously enough.

      (4) You are a women who destroyed her family and gleefully got away with it – that makes you a shit person and a feminist success story. period. Nothing you do or say can change that. You lived like a feminist then and you live like a feminist now. All I’m saying is that if you truly regretted your past foolish ways (i.e. weren’t gleeful about it) you would do the right thing and kill yourself (read 2).

      This is a story you and a couple others have invented about me. I’ve expressed no glee and while my family has challenges we are far from destroyed.

      (5) Not being “alpha” isn’t really that big of a deal. Alphaness is one of the most debated aspects of the manosphere. Some would say it is nearly impossible to be an alpha male. Read this to know more: http://therawness.com/the-myth-of-the-middle-class-alpha-male-part-1/

      Agree. I personally don’t like that term but struggle sometimes with the right words. I will read that post. Thanks for the link.

      (6) Being a beta isn’t really that bad either. Beta’s are pivotal towards developing a strong, healthy nation. Without dirty beta rats such as myself you wouldn’t have been able to type that elegant comment you just made.

      I agree. And you can’t learn how to be a leader unless you also know how to follow

      (7) You boast about having all of these masculine influences in your life and yet you still turned out to be a shit woman. I guess being a “masculine male” doesn’t mean anything when it comes to properly rearing your children.

      Your opinion of me is that I’m a shit woman. My opinion is that I”m not. I agree I’m far from perfect and a poor judge if I’m shitty. Time reveals all. If I don’t kill myself as you suggest, maybe we will all find out if I”m shitty.

      (10) “And I believe for the most part you all REALLY wish women would step up to the plate and show more value and respect for ourselves than we have been doing” – Won’t happen at large until the Laws and culture change. Laws and culture don’t change with a fucking blog – they change because of violence. It is violence you should be advocating, not “discovering your sexuality”

      Baby steps.

      (10) “If cute little old me can walk in that room filled with I think it was over 40 men and hold my own, I’m betting I can hold my own in this community too” – What were you expecting them to do? – Rape you? – How the hell is walking into a room full of men and “holding your own” an accomplishment? – Strippers do that shit all the time and it doesn’t mean a single thing.

      No, but it was intimidating. I was very nervous and had no idea what would happen. I was pleasantly surprised. A few did try to hit on me which was funny.

      (11) You keep talking about self-improvement yet you don’t even know what the hell you are self-improving towards. What is your end goal, Kittens? The Christo-manosphere women have the end goal of being more Godly women; the Dissident Right women have the end goal of preserving western culture. But what is your end goal? – To become more feminine? – To have more “alpha men” willing to put up with your bullshit? – You are basically just a second/first wave feminist. The same piss, just in a different bottle.

      End goal? My delusion nearly got me killed. I think waking women up might save a few lives. But I won’t really be able to prove that. So maybe I can just help a few women realize that they don’t have to keep doing the same thing for the same miserable result? Maybe I’ll just improve my grammar and spelling.

      (13) I come here for self-improvement all the time, but unlike yourself I am aware that no one really gives a shit.

      People give a shit when their lives start to depend on it.

      @KittenHoliday

  16. Just in the abstract, re: white knighting

    It should be a term of description rather than of condemnation. Otherwise it just becomes a way to beat someone down who’s not acting how you want. Like, if I think a dude is genuinely white knighting I might tell him to cut it out – not because it offends me or anything but because it’s unproductive behavior that a lot of guys don’t even really recognize that they’re doing.

    Supporting a female commenter’s point, or opposing its criticism, doesn’t have to be white knighting. Showing compassion for a woman isn’t white knighting. If we make it such, men here will be terrified to do anything except oppose female commenters so that they won’t get labeled a ‘white knight.’ I think that happens already.

    It’s good for guys just starting out correcting their mindsets to be skeptical of their motivations in supporting a girl’s comment. But eventually you learn to calibrate.

  17. “4) You are a women who destroyed her family and gleefully got away with it – that makes you a shit person and a feminist success story. period. Nothing you do or say can change that. You lived like a feminist then and you live like a feminist now.”

    Yeah this is hard to swallow and trust that you have honorable intentions, but maybe a reformed Eat, prey, lover is a good spokesperson. The real question is for what end.

  18. The Inverse Picard Law applies: disengage.

    Some broad shows up here, blathers, babbles, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. ZFG. Big yawn.

    I guess some like to vent. I see it as an unwanted intrusion into male-space. Is there nowhere for us to be together?
    Time to stop falling for Divide et Impera guys.

    Where’s scribb? I want him to come in and go nuclear on this broad.

  19. @averagechump

    Hey man, worse things are going to happen in life than your parents getting divorced. You’re young, smart, and you found game. You have your whole life ahead of you. I think a lot of people here would envy your position. Cheer up. 🙂

  20. @Andy

    I do not mean any disrespect but I do not see anything wrong with being justifiably angry. Bad things that happen in the future do not cloud over or justify or erase the bad things that happen in the past.

    There are certainly things in life to be happy about, such as coming across this community, going to a good school, having food and shelter, etc – I am definitely thankful for these things; but there are also many things to be very angry about as well. Happiness is useful in some things, not useful in others. I would say the blind, hedonistic pursuit of being cheery is one of the things that has landed us into the culture we have now.

    I appreciate your concern and I will try to cheer up on occasion,
    @AverageChumps

  21. Anger is not a cherished possession to hold onto and treasure. It’s purpose is to drive you to action that relieves you of it.

  22. @Average chump.

    Your situation has been discussed many times here and If you haven’t seen the essay “The Five Stages of Unplugging” from Rollo’s best essays of Year One. (in fact you should read all of Rollo’s essays under the heading of Unplugging from the best of the First year). And read the Wikipedia article about Kubler-Ross stages of grief over loss (in most cases a loss of agency– the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power.

    Unfortunately, this discussion of Kubler-Ross stages of grief is getting a little cliched and repetitive and it is a tired discussion. But it is somewhat necessary for you to understand it and to move on in your personal development as a male. I don’t want to preach, but I will anyway.

    Sometimes you need pointers when you are stuck in a stage of personal development and if you can’t move on to a stage of acceptance of how things are outside the matrix of what the current society has to offer, then good luck with that. When you do get to Acceptance, then you can start to move forward. If not, you are stuck in a rut. Denial, anger, bargaining and depression will steal energy from your psyche and prevent you from having real power. And you need real power to advance your strategy.

    No one here is advocating blind, hedonistic pursuit of being cheery. That is what the analogy of the blue pill matrix was designed for. The Matrix was designed to keep men from really living by plugging them into a code that kept everyone blind, and hedonistically pursuing and cheeriness–and all the while stealing energy from human subjects to operated its massive structure unchangeable structure. (Do you understand the metaphor from the movie the Matrix?) What this blog is all about is having awareness of how things are and then developing tactics to have more masculine power and more agency.

    You can criticize some of us that have employed this strategy to advance our own mission all you want, but it is you for whom understanding and a game plan is most important. The manosphere is all about sharing information to make your job more efficient, not easier. You still have to do the work to straighten out your head, get past the anger and denial and make your life better through awareness and tactics.

    And maybe one of these days you can change your avatar name to something other than Averagechump. And then change your tone.

  23. And one of these days I may one day actually have the skill to pare down my run on comments to two sentences like KFG.

  24. K.H.

    That was “I have a Dream” meant for chumpie on MLK day. That one day he will see he has agency.

    Your comment snuck in before I hit post comment. Relax, you’re doing fine here.

  25. Rollo,
    I assume you are aware that Kitten Holiday is preparing herself to be the face of Roosh’s neofemininity? Her presence suggests you are okay with letting her steal your content so she and Roosh can profit from it…

          1. Tell Roosh his whole free speech marketeering falls apart when he’s been censoring and deleting dissenting opinions since 2010 on every media channel he promotes.

            Ask him why Rollo is still blocked on Twitter, RoK, RooshV forums and all his Disqus channels, before you report back about my material. Ask hi what he’s afraid of.

          2. Nah, I just know a climber when I see one, and you’ve been busy finding a way to worm yourself in since summer. Not quite sure how either you or Roosh is going lead your readers anywhere but over a cliff considering you are both failures at relationships. C’ya! 🙂

      1. I didn’t lie about not being able to post. I tried several times, with and without links. Given our differences, it was not an illogical leap to assume I had been banned.

  26. @kfg

    I agree.

    @SJF

    I have read over the Five Stages of Unplugging many times and am very well acquainted with all of them. Above I mentioned that what defines Alphaness is one of the many debated aspects of the manosphere. Likewise — and I don’t want to get into the details of it — but I would say the content that the Five Stages covers is debatable as well. It definitely covers very important things, but certainly not everything.

    “What this blog is all about is having awareness of how things are and then developing tactics to have more masculine power and more agency”

    Agreed. But SJF, don’t get the idea that I have not yet benefited from the information here or elsewhere, and that I have not yet implemented any of the good ideas that Rollo or Roissy, or even you, have discussed. I really have – all the time. I would say that I actually do have a very positive attitude. I have good friends, great experiences and ambitions, yada yada (although I don’t really get laid often at all which is why I come here, to be honest). But having a positive attitude, self-confidence and personal agency doesn’t blind you from the injustices that occur on this planet, nor does having these qualities entail that a person should pretend injustices should be brushed over or viewed in a positive light. That is denial at its finest.

    This is a truly a great place that many can benefit from. I just don’t like seeing a second/first wave entryist feminist come in, recieve sympathy and compassion for her shitty decisions, garner support, then fuck up more young women’s views. Maybe I just have a more hardlined view towards feminism than you do. I am not a moral relativist, so perhaps that is why.

    @Kitten Holiday

    * Look, taking the red-pill isn’t a big deal. It might seem that way, but it is not. There are other far more important, far more complex things in life than discovering that women like a masculine man and that men like a feminine woman and that feminism is fucked up.

    * Also, the things that you write about, how you live, and the things that you advocate are pretty much in line with your typical second wave feminist. More sex-positive red-pill-women bullshit. That you are a second/first wave feminist makes you a shit person. period. Accept it or change it.

    * You permanently dissolved your family when you got divorced. That necessarily implies that your family is non-existent, which means that it was destroyed. So there ya go. You destroyed it. Statistically speaking your children would have been much better off if either you or your husband had died. So yeah. Killing yourself during your dissolving marriage would have been better for your kids. My guess is killing yourself now would be better for them as well. It’ll give them more adversity to overcome. Makes for a better life story overall.

    * It really doesn’t matter whether or not you were gleeful about destroying your family. You missed the point. The first point being that you got away with it and to this day you remain thankful that you exist in a society that allows you to get away with it. The second point being that due to how you comported yourself in the past, and especially how you comport yourself now, you are a shining representative of the feminist movement. Get this into your fucking head. You are feminist success story. Everything you do or say promotes feminism.

    * You are the sum total of the things you have done in the past and the things that you continue to do now. The future hasn’t happened yet. In the past you were a shit person — you were a shit person for destroying your marriage. Right now you continue to be a shit-person, a text-book femme fatale. Add them together, divide by two, and what do you get? – You get a shit person overall. Accept it or change it.

    * “So maybe I can just help a few women realize that they don’t have to keep doing the same thing for the same miserable result?” – Possibly. I hope that works out for you. Not likely, but who knows.

    * “People give a shit when their lives start to depend on it.” – No, they really don’t. You just made that up.

    God bless!
    @averagechump

  27. Kate Minter, like Mark Minter? If so, isn’t she the original anit-feminist red pill attention whore?

  28. You mean the Kate Minter who gave her ex a 140K divorce settlement, who agreed to accept hundreds less than required in child support each month, whose child sees her father every other day because he lives across the street, who married a man even when he was penniless, who wrote quality posts for the AVFM forum about child custody laws, who now supports her husband and saves money from her teacher’s salary to give to step-children she’s never met. And who has never sought to profit and exploit her inadvertent “fame.” Yeah, that Kate Minter. Accept no substitutes.

    M’out.

  29. LOL you cashed in your “fame” by marrying Marriage Hating Mark. Honey, you were the harbinger of the end of the manosphere. I don’t think you’ve got much cred when trying to call out other women. LULZ.

  30. My mistake. My old man memory must have failed me. I apologize for being rude. I’m happy to delete that if I could.

  31. @kitten,
    And do tell your hypocrite Muslim friend to shut his fucking mouth and stop attacking migration and refugees, because if the west had listened to his bullshits, his Muslim family would have stayed in the Islamic Republic of Iran and his blogs name would have been : bang Ayatollah Fucking Darius.
    I tell you, the fucking hypocrisy that comes out of that guy’s ass.

  32. @YaReally
    Hey sorry for how long it’s taken me to respond. I hope you haven’t lost interest in chatting with me.

    I did study mystery method, it was one of the first things I studied back in college (after David DeAngelo). I absorbed the idea of the structure fairly well, but I resisted learning routines (my mind is very good with abstract concepts, but not great with concrete implementation). I’ve just always felt more comfortable winging my speeches in class and in competition than I have trying to sit down and memorize a pre-canned script. My sets have clearly suffered for it too – I’ve learned time and time again that I just can’t consistently put out good material myself.

    But that wasn’t the big issue back in college, I don’t think. My biggest issue is that I had a LOT of anxiety around being sexual, and mystery method didn’t really help address that.

    A few years ago, I started on the whole Allen Roger Currie & Mark Manson – be direct and say what you’re thinking/feeling schtick. It did wonders for helping me eliminate that sexual anxiety, and I did lose my virginity that way. In fact, ruminating on the things you’ve been saying, I think I stumbled into some of that “laser eye contact” you’ve been talking about.

    Like, my favorite approaches were the ones where I spotted a chick twenty to thirty feet away on the metro platform, locked my eyes on her, and slowly walked towards her keeping eye contact the whole time. I’ve even gotten a couple chicks who were half a block ahead of me to slow down so I could catch up and hit on them, purely through eye contact. It’s very inconsistent for me though.

    But thinking back to my direct sets, I can see in retrospect that I did actually build attraction on open…I just immediately lost when I couldn’t come up with something better to say. Like, I imagine the nonverbal conversation going something like this:

    me: I’ve got what you’re looking for.

    her: You’ve got my attention. Prove it.

    Me: uhhhh….

    And in that split second of hesitation, all the attraction is gone.

    That coach I mentioned basically gave me the same suggestion you did – go back and study mystery method again, so I bought “Mind of Mystery” on his suggestion. I’ve only watched the one video so far though.

    BUT, what I have been trying to do is go back to the Love System’s routine manual I bought last year before I got swamped with overtime at work. I’ve been slowly trying to force myself to memorize and use some routines in set. It’s ridiculous how much anxiety it gives me.

    Like I could easily walk up to three chicks and tell them they’re cute in the time it takes me to try to practice a canned opener once – direct is in my comfort zone, but routines are not. Like last night, I had to open a chick with a really lame situational opener just to get myself comfortable enough to practice the Love System’s opener I’m trying to normalize for myself. The lame situational got a better reaction too (I think I’m being too rapport seeking with my tonality in the scripted opener).

    I’m also realizing that going out sarging by myself still gives me a lot of anxiety. Most of the sets I’ve done the past few years have been chicks I’ve opened while on my way to work, or while running errands. Well
    I went to a target Saturday (my buddy suggested that in his experience there are less underage girls hanging around at a target instead of a general mall) with the goal of sarging for two hours, and practicing my opener on at least five sets. I get there, and my anxiety kicks in to overdrive thinking “Oh shit, how am I going to look normal while I look for chicks to hit on?” And then I find myself actually starting to shop to calm myself down. It’s like I need an excuse for myself to feel comfortable, other than “I’m here to hit on chicks.” I only managed to stay for like 15 minutes, but luckily I did force myself to use the opener on four sets (though one of them, a mixed three set, the chicks basically bailed when I opened and only the dude talked to me).

  33. Request for clarification, please, Rollo:

    “If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability.”

    Is ever… what? It seems there’s something missing from this sentence, something important, and I’d like to fill in the gap, for my own understanding.

    Thank you.

      1. Ah… I should have seen that. Thanks very much for taking the time to fill in the blank for me.

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