The Red Pill Balance

Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.

Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.

So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.

Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):

@reloadedbeats

A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.

What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.

In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?

Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.

We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”

Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.

Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.

It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”

No Quarter Given

In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to

When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.

However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.

The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.

And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.

That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.

At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.

Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.

On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.

It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.

By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.

He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.

Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.

No Quarter Expected

I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.

Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.

The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.

Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.

There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.

It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.

Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.

The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?

The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.

It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”

It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.

So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.

I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.

Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.

Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.

What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.

That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……

I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.

The Red Pill Balance

Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.

KFG had a comment to this point:

If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.

This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.

Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.

Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Dutchman
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SJB, to pull her back into my frame and get her to follow my lead like she COMPLETELY did when we first got together. What CaveClown achieved with his wife is my template.

Kitten Holiday
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Don’t forget that society is actually pushing that having a man at all is a sign of weakness. Single Mom Doing It All (TM) is perceived as high status in the Female Group. And if she’s attractive at all, there are plenty of guys in their twenties and thirties to keep her busy no strings attached.

Dutchman
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Kitten, did you feel like he deserved everything your “armies” were throwing at him at the time? Did you find yourself wishing that you didn’t have to hold them back?

Kitten Holiday
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No he didn’t deserve it. If I thought he deserved it I would have sold tickets to watch the slaughter.

Dutchman
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“Don’t forget that society is actually pushing that having a man at all is a sign of weakness. Single Mom Doing It All (TM) is perceived as high status in the Female Group. And if she’s attractive at all, there are plenty of guys in their twenties and thirties to keep her busy no strings attached.”

She has always claimed to despise that mentality (but I know, don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do).

Kitten Holiday
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@Dutchman,
She’s protecting her status. As soon as her status changes, so will her tune.

Blaximus
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Just before my divorce, the wife wanted a trial separation. That slapped the cluelessness right out of me. Exit visas were already prepared. I immediately contacted a lawyer and moved to protect myself, but strangely enough, she didn’t want anything but out of the marriage. I was completely crushed and devastated. She went on a cruise to Mexico with her girlfriends. Evidently she’d made up her mind a year prior. Everything else was just mindless fluff. I’ve been following Dutch’s posts for a while but I don’t have anything more to offer him than what’s been offered already. Friends and… Read more »

IAS
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Ironically, not long after I suggested Dutch check MRP, my wife hit me with the following comfort/shit test(s): “It’s good to be prepared in case you decide to go away.” I replied that it is great if she doesn’t need me (I had the stance that I don’t want her to need me, I want her to want me, even prior to Red Pill). Context (incomplete): the thing she did was after she did something computer related, she would usually ask me to do it or ask me for advice, and I congratulated her for being a bit more self-sufficient… Read more »

Pedat Ebediyah
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@Dutchman What Blax wrote about “enablers” is so true. Reminds me of the song, “How Long Has This Been Going On”. Well your friends and their fancy persuasions Wont admit that it’s part of a scheme But I can’t help but have my suspicions Cause I ain’t quite as dumb as I seem. You already know…don’t you? The advice you’ve received is so solid, anything else I could say would be superfluous. I’ve taken buckshot, have had to dig up money, weapons, save a car from going over a bridge,  just because there were some who pretended not to know.… Read more »

SJF
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OK Dutch. Here I go. You just got some awareness from Rollo and Kitten. You need prescriptive advice. I am an advocate for staying with the marriage. Which no doubt will suck, but so would divorce and her, the mom of you kids hating your guts for screwing the kids out of two parent household. Sure that goes against the grain here, but I have a simple reason. It is for the kids. I may have been listening a bit to Dr. Laura Schlessinger lately, but she is the only one that seems to have an adequate perspective on these… Read more »

Yollo "Detritus" Comanche
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@YaReally

I just got PIMP. watching the pillars now.

Amituofo

I’ll make you proud, sensei.

Forge the Sky
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Welp, couple of things before I hop over to the newest article. First – sounds like you’re getting better at this whole ‘game’ thing, Sun Wukong. It’s actually a more frustrating game when you start getting soo close from time to time. Past that, i was just basically gonna say what YaReally wrote to you. The field shows you your weak points and insecurities, you can’t hide from them. It’s therapy, in the end. Even with a good therapist you’ll learn workarounds so that they don’t trigger your ego investments after a while. Second, I’m kinda laughing at the whole… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Finally, Dutchman You’ve got a lot of view from the ground. Lemme toss out some view from the sky. SJF’s recc to bang the 48 laws into your head may seem a bit odd, but that is the core and center of what you need now. Fundamentally, what you lack is power. Part of that is due to your own personal charisma (or lack thereof) and you can begin to help that with game – though it takes a while for it to ‘take’ fully. However, a lot of that lack of power comes from other sources. Women hate a… Read more »

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Oh, meant to add re: Dutchman

She’s gonna try and create a narrative where her leaving you is not only a good idea, but necessary and heroic. Once she does that, you can’t turn back. You can’t hold back the hounds and neither can she, and even if she ends up deciding that she wants to stay with you she’ll still divorce your ass because otherwise she’ll be going against the narrative and people will judge her.

That’s the rubicon, and it can’t be crossed halfway.

scribblerg
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I’ve been put into spam hell – holy shit, was Andy right – I was just fucking around with the fat guy, seriously. I got what YaReally said about all this last time around and had no problem with it. A few points: Ya – You have never been the victim of my hostility. What you were saying about cam girls flew in the face of fairly recent experience with the real world – but when I dug deeper I readily admitted it. Let’s be clear, I disagreed with you and then came into agreement. I’m hostile to others. I… Read more »

Blaximus
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I LOVE YaReally, really, but of course he doesn’t know what it’s like to be 53 Scrib. I, on the other hand, hear you loud and clear with my 54 year old ears ( the eyes are going…slowly, but I can still ” hear ” through them on TRM ). To accomplish what you’re going for will take patience, time and effort. IMO young chicks are so flighty sometimes that older, rational guys have a harder time figuring out how to deal with them in a sexual manner. ” … That said, I game every women I meet, and work… Read more »

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Nice Blax. I Lol’d at then then I went to use the bathroom and check my blood sugar. Meanwhile, my wife sat down at my desk in the library to file the W-2 forms I brought home today into the tax files. And your post was on the big screen on the computer. She came back into the living room and proceeded to call me a fucking asshole for reading shit like that. “You (referring to me) and your Alpha shit and your treating women badly (she made that up) and your online friends talking about that and how to… Read more »

Blaximus
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SJF-

damn. I hope I didn’t upset the apple cart too much.

Re: Raising voice. I last raised my voice Thanksgiving of 2014. It was a doosy. It is necessary sometimes. That’s all.

Forge the Sky
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Lol see, I didn’t even think Blax’s comment was all that crazy. Just a funny story with a bit of edge to it. Just a reminder of how ‘out there’ redpill is to most people.

Shows how strong the FI is – not allowed to call even random fat girls she’s never met fat, strange.

In this case of course it also has to do with a fear of her not being in control of you.

Blaximus
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Forge-

Maybe it was my attempt to hurt Teh Feelz of the rotund female who was trying to age-shame me.

It wasn’t hitting below the belt because if there was a belt on her, it would never be seen by human eyes again. As Bill Cosby said, she had Donelap disease. That’s where her belly done-lapped over her belt.

SJF
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Nope, you’re good in my book Blaximus. This was one of those occasions. She tried to cross the Rubicon two years ago. I headed her off at the pass and she’s still pissed that I foiled her plans. Pretty much by shouldering my burden of performance and improving and working on game. It’s just an extinction burst with her reverting to what used to work. She’s victim to feeling my soft dread and she’s created a false narrative that from my red-pill self-improvement that I’ll turn into an angry Jerk who she doesn’t want to get with. Which ain’t happening.… Read more »

The Target and the Gun
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Another post presenting undeniable truth.

SJF
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Lol see, I didn’t even think Blax’s comment was all that crazy. Just a funny story with a bit of edge to it. Just a reminder of how ‘out there’ redpill is to most people. The story is hilarious to red pill eyes. Completely taken out of context by blue pill eyes. Feminine imperative eyes can’t possibly see how shaming a man for being 54 can possibly be a slight to red pill eyes and calling out fatness with riposte is evil. Shows how strong the FI is – not allowed to call even random fat girls she’s never met… Read more »

IAS
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Blaximus didn’t even call her fat first, he *just asked her how much she weighted* and only call her fat girl after she started screaming.

Culum Struan
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YaReally – thanks dude, that’s amazing as usual. As a starting point, I did some googling and got her to take her panties off at lunchtime and go without underwear at work the rest of the day. And I told her she couldn’t play with herself till she got home, no matter how turned on she got being naughty. That seems to have gone down well, and I don’t want to overdo it, so I figure I’ll keep things at a boil by giving her orders every 2-3 days till I meet her next weekend (most likely) and will keep… Read more »

Culum Struan
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And scray – I just saw your post.

Yup, 165 at 5’10” – I don’t lift at all (starting now and going slow because I have some chronic back issues and have had for years). Not even sure of my body fat – 20-21% maybe? Basically not overweight but..soft.

I hadn’t thought about the writing style as “content is king”..but yeah that’s a good way to think about it.

YaReally
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@scribblerg “you 30 yr old kids don’t know shit about it.” “The social complexities of Old Man Game are different” “I am pushing the boundaries of something most of you guys can’t even begin to comprehend” “so perhaps Ya, you should tap the brakes realize that even you, Sensei, may not know what it’s like to game under 25 yo hotties at 53. Just sayin’…” Do you think the PUA community doesn’t have 50+yo guys in it? Do you think a guy who goes out regularly doesn’t know older guys in the nightlife? Do you think the high-end scene isn’t… Read more »

zip
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@ Ya

scribblerg is right in stating that “old man’s game” differs fundamentally in some aspects. He is also right in stating that there are limitations to old man’s reality.

In his personal development I consider him to be in his anger phase.

We – as his fellow-men – should aknowledge and appreciate that and try to support so that he can find his way out.

Having already given so much usefful advices based on profound insights you should know that.

YaReally
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@newlyaloof “But, now I see that he did what you said works (subcoms mainly), so he does have skills.” He’s technically running game, but it’s all subconscious and just a byproduct of his lifestyle. A lot of Naturals have solid subcomms because they spend so much time around women, whereas the newbie who’s never touched a girl before is wild-eyed and reactive infield. “I think if this dude was a stripper (which he is), had a great body (which he does) but didn’t have the matching attitude, he’d eventually get blown out of the water.” Yup. Plenty of good-looking guys… Read more »

YaReally
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@digireaper “in one thread that they questioned if the Mystery Method is still good” Ya it’s a shame. The quality old stuff is being discarded by guys who don’t even really read it, or don’t get how to bend and flex it to account for how things have changed in society. It’s really sad to see. I would put guys on a diet of Mystery Method (I prefer the seminar where he teaches it over the PDF, I like Mystery’s passion for what he’s teaching, the vids were on YouTube at some point), Liam Mcrae’s Rapid Escalation video on YouTube,… Read more »

YaReally
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@zip “We – as his fellow-men – should aknowledge and appreciate that and try to support so that he can find his way out.” There’s a point where a guy gets comfortable enough in the anger phase that he makes an identity out of it and perpetuates it longer than he should, stunting his overall growth and reveling in it. scribblerg has made an identity out of being the “fuck you I’ll knock your fucking teeth in, you don’t know shit about anything, get the fuck out of here don’t you dare post about this shit around me, fuck you… Read more »

Roused
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Not much time to post lately and am glad to see SJF coming off his sabbatical. Blax: “Ahem, I gotta cut back on the large cups of arrogance though. I musta had way too many today. It’s YaReally’s fault.” NO, don’t stop! That shit is great. Dutch, what everybody else wrote is spot on. I am a rookie with TRP but can tell you from marriage and a current LTR than the power SJF refers to is spot on. This isn’t me saying I read something and gee, that could work. It’s real life experience in the past three months… Read more »

SJF
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Roused, congratulations on your progress with your son and daughter. Keep working on the concept of having a core group of good guy friends. There is infinite upside to that. Choose wisely and treat kindly. And yes, reading between the lines in the fifth paragraph your comment: In a man’s relationship with another woman, interacting socially with other high quality men and women is a key component to relationship game. It should not be neglected. Dutchman is in too deep a hole to concentrate on this currently, but other men need to know not to neglect this from the start.… Read more »

newlyaloof
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@Dutchman,

Tell her you’d do the counseling, but only after she knows you you truly feel about:
1. Her:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-T_-OW50jQ

2. Your family:

Dutchman
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Don’t have time to reply to everyone who gave me advice today but thanks to ALL of you. Just wanted to hit a few points: “In a man’s relationship with another woman, interacting socially with other high quality men and women is a key component to relationship game. It should not be neglected. Dutchman is in too deep a hole to concentrate on this currently, but other men need to know not to neglect this from the start.” I’m definitely deficient in my social interactions with high quality men but pretty good with other women (milfs in public, her friends,… Read more »

zip
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@ YaReally There’s a point where a guy gets comfortable enough in the anger phase that he makes an identity out of it and perpetuates it longer than he should, stunting his overall growth and reveling in it. […]Time to let that go, […] Signed. Though it can turn out to be a hard job letting that anger go. Women’s demeanour and their conduct towards average Joe is apt to trigger old, old pain that has its origins in lots of much earlier experiences of being neglected, shamed, belittled, hated, misused and/or manipulated. Thus it’s not surprising that many of… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
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YaReally to SunWuKong: It’s painful to do, because it hurts the ego to walk away…but accidentally killing the guy or ending up disfigured isn’t going to help you on this journey lol Important, this. A churchgoing man I know works in a counseling / ministry group that goes into state prisons. One of the first prisoners he worked with was a man in his late 20’s, seemed pretty normal, and in fact he was. That man just happened to get into a bar fight in his early 20’s, and long story short some other man wound up dead, apparently by… Read more »

SJF
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@Dutchman Maximize your strengths minimize your weaknesses. Your relationship with your children is a great strength. Amp that up. Good parenting is a dopamine input. (or as KFG would say, it makes you feel good). And in the state you are in–a rut–you need as many feel good things as you can get. And don’t forget to enhance the masculine in your son and he feminine in your daughter. Your weakness: Not socializing well with high quality men and being a girlfriend to other women (which is essentially what you are doing if you are not fucking them. ..and no… Read more »

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Cosign Kitten Holiday’s long post on how women divorce. That pretty much describes at least one frivorce I’ve seen in the last couple of years, and guess what? Once the youngest is out of the house and child support ends, she’s gonna be miserable anyway.

averagechump
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@KittenHoliday, This is a really fucked up thing to say, but regardless, your testimony about how your divorce went through really made me fucking pissed, like at a deeply rooted, biological level. Fuck chivalry. If you were standing in front of me at the moment I was reading that, I would have punched you in the face several times over. You essentially set the example to your children that family is trivial, having two biological parents together really isn’t that important, you have no moral obligations to stay with your wife, or your husband, even if you have children with… Read more »

psyllium
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We shouldn’t automatically see Red Pill truths in a naturalistic/materialistic context:

woodchipperz
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Hey, fuck you, Rollo! Per your recommendation I watched Blue Valentine. I cringed through the whole fucking thing. I’m reading some comments just to get the Blue Pill stink off me. I guess it hit a soft spot. In all fairness, it really did honestly show men’s BP idealism vs women’s contempt and disgust for it in their opertunism. It wasn’t too long ago that I thought if I was taking care of my family that I’d be loved and appreciated for it. I am just starting to break out of the anger phase. As a fan of Atlas Shrugged,… Read more »

SJF
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I mentioned a couple weeks ago that the end of my daughter’s two year serial monogamous relationship with a blue pill guy came to and end a year ago (good thing) after they watched Blue Valentine. Heheh. Guys should watch it and don’t be the character Dean. Woodchippers, “However, I can’t help but think her sudden change of heart is either an opertunistic step towards a frivorce or a realization that she doesn’t have the backup options she originally thought. Either way, not sure if it’s just postponing the inevitable or if things can legitimately be turned around like a… Read more »

Kitten Holiday
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@averagechump Thanks for your comments. I really can’t blame you for the level of anger you feel. I feel it too. In a divorce everyone loses. It’s really a terrible situation that can lead to emotional and financial bankruptcy as well as a host of other problems for the individuals, the family unit and society. I see and feel the effects of all these repercussions too. The intent of my long post on divorce was not in any way to excuse people of their choices or actions. There are consequences for everything and sometimes they are very harsh. My intention… Read more »

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@Kitten Holiday “Women do not, currently have healthy understanding of how their hormones and drives and desires affect us. I am not a man but when I think of a man’s drives they run in a straight line toward resolution. Sexual drive –> sexual urge –> sexual intent —.>sexual release. When I think of a woman’s drives, the don’t have a straight line. They are more complicated. Without an understanding of what drives us, what we want, what we are looking for, we don’t know what comes after the —> arrow. We don’t know what will relieve it. As you… Read more »

averagechump
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@Kitten That is an interesting comment. You are still an insufferable cunt, and the time you spent writing that comment could have been spent doing something more productive, like killing yourself, but that is neither here nor there. lolollogo In all honesty, it is a real pity that women such as yourself have been misled and that their children have to pay for it. Although I respect the goal of your blog in being a guiding light for other fucked up shivved women similar to yourself, I doubt it will have a positive change on any dedicated reader. Soviet Russia… Read more »

Andy
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@kitten Yowch! Try not to take anything personally. We’ve got a lot of damaged dudes around here. @dutchman I totally forgot about this book. I don’t even remember how I found it, but you should definitely have your wife read it. It’s basically a story about a woman that is about to get divorced and it kind of explains men, and how wives should treat their husbands and sons. I really think it might help you considering the situation. It’s kind of religious, but the message is legit. @kitten if you haven’t read it you should take a gander. http://issuu.com/bouga/docs/secrets_of_fascinating_womanhood… Read more »

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@averagechump January 16th, 2016 at 6:19 pm Congratulations! You just won a prize. Most moronic comment in the last 4 years. 6:19 on a Saturday night. Couldn’t you have waited till after Midnight? Kitten’s writing skills are impressive. Her red pill understanding and her expressions of it are greenhorn. But she admits to it in her writing and it is obvious that she is trying to get her legs. For her, there is a lot of gold in them thar’ manosphere blogs and a red pill girl (I think she like’s it) is going to mine it for the distillation… Read more »

averagechump
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@SJF

I appreciate the detailed, honest feedback. If white-knighting makes you feel like more of a badass and helps you get laid with Kitten I say go for it!

Good luck with the baby duck,
@averagechumpboy

SJF
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Heh Average Stop being a dick. No white knight here. I call them as I see them. You are not quite astute to understand that I am not sucking up to Kitten who happens to be the most appropriate women commenter I have seen in awhile. As attuned to trying to keep up with the flow as any. With the emphasis on trying. (And she shouldn’t try hard to qualify to the commenters here, she has done fine so far. To her: Don’t qualify. Be real. We will tear you apart if you don’t have a clue who your audience… Read more »

averagechump
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@SJF Badass comment. A lot of good AMOG stuff in their buddy. You’re a real AMOG yourself. What I thinks most badass about you is that you say “No white knight here. I call them as I see them” – then you continue to go about white-knighting like its what your father bred you for. That’s some good Game. I forget which manosphere overlord advocated sucking up to women you do not know and who do not care about you? – Was it Roissy? – maybe Roosh? – You’ll have to remind me since your so good at it. “I… Read more »

SJF
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SJF
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Umm.

Hey?.

Sir.

Can we help you?

averagechump
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@NeighborhoodBadassSJF

Nah. No help needed at the moment

Kitten Holiday
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@SJF
Thank you for that comment. I actually love that explanation and that actually is more in line with some of my other thinking about women and femininity wherein I believe two of our basic needs are security and reassurance. That speaks to the comfort and fullness described in the Dieda quote. I’ve just ordered the book and am excited to dive in.

SJF
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@ K.H. That book came out in 1997 and when I read it originally over a decade ago I was pissed that it took a better man than I was at the time to actually just get it and use it for relationship power. I’m much better now and it is eerie how proto-typically red pill it is with it’s illustration of a man’s way, dealing with women, working with masculine–feminine polarity, what women really want, a man’s dark side (which is really not so bad, as long as a man understands it) and how a man can use feminine… Read more »

Kitten Holiday
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All, I would have responded sooner after reading Averagechump’s comments but I only had my phone with me until today and then I had to stop in the middle of writing to make lunch and figure out how to record the football game for my boyfriend. I appreciate the concern for how I would respond to Averagechumps comments. It’s a reflection of the caliber of men here that they would say something to reassure me that you are all not like him. Thank you. However, I do want to reassure you that you don’t need to worry about me in… Read more »

Kate Minter
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Fuck off, Kitten. You are deluding yourself if you think you are in any way, shape, or form part of the solution. You are a terrible role model to other women and to your children. You’re a slut who shows no intention of marrying and conducting yourself like a respectable woman. This is a board for men who’ve been battered by cunts like you and here you come to steal attention, gather readers, and followers. You think it’s all about you? Well, not here, bitch. It’s about them. So sit back, shut up, and stop embarrassing womankind. Loading...

Forge the Sky
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comment image

averagechump
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@Kittens That was a really good comment. Here are a few things for you to consider: (1) This is the internet. (2) You are taking your “red-pill awakening” way too seriously. (3) I don’t know Rollo personally. So it wouldn’t matter if I was in his favor or not. (4) You are a women who destroyed her family and gleefully got away with it – that makes you a shit person and a feminist success story. period. Nothing you do or say can change that. You lived like a feminist then and you live like a feminist now. All I’m… Read more »

Blaximus
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stuffinbox
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stuffinbox
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@Forge
haAHHHHhhhhhhhhhaaaahgghaaauuuuuha

Forge the Sky
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Just in the abstract, re: white knighting It should be a term of description rather than of condemnation. Otherwise it just becomes a way to beat someone down who’s not acting how you want. Like, if I think a dude is genuinely white knighting I might tell him to cut it out – not because it offends me or anything but because it’s unproductive behavior that a lot of guys don’t even really recognize that they’re doing. Supporting a female commenter’s point, or opposing its criticism, doesn’t have to be white knighting. Showing compassion for a woman isn’t white knighting.… Read more »

averagechump
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@Forge the Sky

I see what you mean. It is a fine line I am walking.

Pinelero
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“4) You are a women who destroyed her family and gleefully got away with it – that makes you a shit person and a feminist success story. period. Nothing you do or say can change that. You lived like a feminist then and you live like a feminist now.”

Yeah this is hard to swallow and trust that you have honorable intentions, but maybe a reformed Eat, prey, lover is a good spokesperson. The real question is for what end.

bob bitchin
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The Inverse Picard Law applies: disengage.

Some broad shows up here, blathers, babbles, etc. Wash, rinse, repeat. ZFG. Big yawn.

I guess some like to vent. I see it as an unwanted intrusion into male-space. Is there nowhere for us to be together?
Time to stop falling for Divide et Impera guys.

Where’s scribb? I want him to come in and go nuclear on this broad.

kfg
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@Kate:

Et tu.

Andy
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Andy
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@averagechump

Hey man, worse things are going to happen in life than your parents getting divorced. You’re young, smart, and you found game. You have your whole life ahead of you. I think a lot of people here would envy your position. Cheer up. smile

averagechump
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@Andy I do not mean any disrespect but I do not see anything wrong with being justifiably angry. Bad things that happen in the future do not cloud over or justify or erase the bad things that happen in the past. There are certainly things in life to be happy about, such as coming across this community, going to a good school, having food and shelter, etc – I am definitely thankful for these things; but there are also many things to be very angry about as well. Happiness is useful in some things, not useful in others. I would… Read more »

kfg
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Anger is not a cherished possession to hold onto and treasure. It’s purpose is to drive you to action that relieves you of it.

SJF
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@Average chump. Your situation has been discussed many times here and If you haven’t seen the essay “The Five Stages of Unplugging” from Rollo’s best essays of Year One. (in fact you should read all of Rollo’s essays under the heading of Unplugging from the best of the First year). And read the Wikipedia article about Kubler-Ross stages of grief over loss (in most cases a loss of agency– the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power. Unfortunately, this discussion of Kubler-Ross stages of grief is getting a little cliched and repetitive and it is a tired… Read more »

SJF
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And one of these days I may one day actually have the skill to pare down my run on comments to two sentences like KFG.

SJF
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SJF
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Or at least put that last sentence together properly.

Kitten Holiday
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@Averagechump (2) You are taking your “red-pill awakening” way too seriously. – Learning to see reality vs. delusion saved my life in no uncertain terms. I know my life has no value to you, but it means a lot to me. I’m not taking it seriously enough. (4) You are a women who destroyed her family and gleefully got away with it – that makes you a shit person and a feminist success story. period. Nothing you do or say can change that. You lived like a feminist then and you live like a feminist now. All I’m saying is… Read more »

SJF
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I have a dream……..

Kitten Holiday
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Dream, hobby, potato, potahto.

Kitten Holiday
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Was referring to me with the dream /hobby comment. Yours posted right after my reply. Still catching up on these emails.

SJF
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K.H.

That was “I have a Dream” meant for chumpie on MLK day. That one day he will see he has agency.

Your comment snuck in before I hit post comment. Relax, you’re doing fine here.

Kate Minter
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Rollo,
I assume you are aware that Kitten Holiday is preparing herself to be the face of Roosh’s neofemininity? Her presence suggests you are okay with letting her steal your content so she and Roosh can profit from it…

Kate Minter
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Btw: still married. Will be setting up trust funds for Mark’s kids soon. Top that motherfuckers smile

averagechump
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@kfg I agree. @SJF I have read over the Five Stages of Unplugging many times and am very well acquainted with all of them. Above I mentioned that what defines Alphaness is one of the many debated aspects of the manosphere. Likewise — and I don’t want to get into the details of it — but I would say the content that the Five Stages covers is debatable as well. It definitely covers very important things, but certainly not everything. “What this blog is all about is having awareness of how things are and then developing tactics to have more… Read more »

Kate Minter
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I didn’t lie about not being able to post. I tried several times, with and without links. Given our differences, it was not an illogical leap to assume I had been banned.

Kate Minter
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jackmurphylive
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Kate Minter, like Mark Minter? If so, isn’t she the original anit-feminist red pill attention whore?

Kate Minter
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You mean the Kate Minter who gave her ex a 140K divorce settlement, who agreed to accept hundreds less than required in child support each month, whose child sees her father every other day because he lives across the street, who married a man even when he was penniless, who wrote quality posts for the AVFM forum about child custody laws, who now supports her husband and saves money from her teacher’s salary to give to step-children she’s never met. And who has never sought to profit and exploit her inadvertent “fame.” Yeah, that Kate Minter. Accept no substitutes. M’out.… Read more »

jackmurphylive
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LOL you cashed in your “fame” by marrying Marriage Hating Mark. Honey, you were the harbinger of the end of the manosphere. I don’t think you’ve got much cred when trying to call out other women. LULZ.

Kate Minter
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I’ll let Rollo be the judge of that.

Kate Minter
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You’re welcome.

jackmurphylive
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My mistake. My old man memory must have failed me. I apologize for being rude. I’m happy to delete that if I could.

Kitten Holiday
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That’s a hell of a story to read into a couple tweets. Quite the active imagination you have.

Kitten Holiday
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Ridiculous. But at least now I know not to waste any more of my time and energy here.

benfromtexas
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This post hurts my brain.

keyser Soze
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keyser Soze
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@kitten,
And do tell your hypocrite Muslim friend to shut his fucking mouth and stop attacking migration and refugees, because if the west had listened to his bullshits, his Muslim family would have stayed in the Islamic Republic of Iran and his blogs name would have been : bang Ayatollah Fucking Darius.
I tell you, the fucking hypocrisy that comes out of that guy’s ass.

Kate Minter
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Nah, I just know a climber when I see one, and you’ve been busy finding a way to worm yourself in since summer. Not quite sure how either you or Roosh is going lead your readers anywhere but over a cliff considering you are both failures at relationships. C’ya! smile

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