The Red Pill Balance

Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.

Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.

So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.

Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):


A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.

What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.

In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?

Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.

We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”

Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.

Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.

It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”

No Quarter Given

In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to

When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.

However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.

The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.

And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.

That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.

At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.

Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.

On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.

It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.

By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.

He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.

Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.

No Quarter Expected

I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.

Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.

The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.

Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.

There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.

It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.

Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.

The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?

The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.

It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”

It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.

So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.

I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.

Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.

Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.

What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.

That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……

I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.

The Red Pill Balance

Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.

KFG had a comment to this point:

If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.

This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.

Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.

Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.


Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

807 comments on “The Red Pill Balance

  1. @Dutchman

    The arc of that argument is what is called getting “Enmeshed”, a common argument tactic designed not to resolve an issue or dispute but to crush the other person’s ego, with the sole goal being full surrender and confession that you are right, which becomes a gut-level ego challenge on both sides. So the pattern escalates: keep changing tactics, attack from another angle, and keep escalating. It’s so easy to fall into.

    The hard lesson is you can’t stop it just by breaking the cycle, refusing to enmesh. Then the change up you’ll get is “you don’t communicate”, “you won’t share your feelings”, “this is why we can’t stay married all you do is just clam up when I want to talk.” So you have to add, as suggested above, “we can discuss this calmly when you calm down and I am happy to communicate at that time, but not like this.” You may have to repeat this a couple times at first before it sinks in. Most important is not to lose your temper, exasperating as that seems. Some people LIKE getting enmeshed and become even more outraged when you refuse to join them. There will be harder nastier attempts to make you abandon frame and re-enmesh.

    It gets even worse when you are arguing with someone like a psychologist who knows what she’s doing and becomes even more enraged that you’re calling her out on her own turf by dis-enmeshing.

    There’s at least one person in every family that does this, and lots of them at work too.

  2. @Dutchman I don’t normally post, but wanted to say that your conflict management is something that you should work on. First, you should dial back on the (uncontrolled) emotion. That’s hard for some people to do, but it is worth the effort. She will appreciate you being in control, she will ping off of your calmness, even in the face of her possibly outrageous behavior. Let her go nuts. If you are the oak, she will calm down 10x faster than if you supplicate and “try” to calm her down.

    You don’t necessarily need to apologize for calling her a bitch, unless it was one of YOUR hard rules, and certainly not three times.

    Good luck. It sounds like you are on your way, if you can at least recognize from reading your own story where you could improve.

  3. Also, in the context of a marriage/LTR, I think it wise to modify the CH rule on No Apologies. Being a total dick 24/7 is not indicated in an otherwise stable relationship where you are hanging together. If you err, apologize – ONCE. That’s it. Do not repeat or reaffirm.

    If pressed to re-apologize and you’re Tam the Bam you can say, “I refer the Honorable Lady to the Reply I gave some moments ago.” (A stock answer you’d hear during Prime Minister’s Question Time in the British House of Commons).

  4. I actually think he could have gone down the road of insisting that she actually was a bitch too. lol. She crossed your line, get her to apologize. Kind of sleazy, but I can get my wife to think that anything was her fault. lol. I never have to do that anymore though. Most of the time when my wife’s a bitch I can just give her the unamused “you’re being a child” look. Then she apologizes.

  5. @Fred,

    Yeah, I know I fucked up by apologizing multiple times.


    Good stuff, I appreciate your insight.

  6. Dutchman, been with wife for 30 years now. She has always known how to press THE button. I have told the story of friends of ours where the husband never, ever has shown any type of joining in her drama game. She doesn’t try that hard anymore.

    I use this friends stoic behaviour as my model, but have relapses now and again.

    Being of Italian heritage it is hard to be a rock amongst all that swelling of the sea.

  7. @Niko

    “..I believe if that hypergamy takes your wife away, then you will feel the betrayal and hurt. But invariably you will move on. It will not change your world view.”

    I used to see my child every day. Now I don’t. It has left a hole in my heart that will never heal. My world view is VERY changed.

    @Artisanal Toad

    “The question is not how to fix the problems with women’s behavior, because that’s impossible. The question is how to arrange incentives within the relationship such that women solve their own problems, don’t behave badly and are motivated to give the man what he wants from them.”

    True. Alas, the only tool left in the toolbox is Game. Which is essentially the theory that I should ‘make myself so high value, that she won’t want to fuck me over’. I am not disputing the merits of self improvement, rather lamenting that this is all there is. It’s fine for dating, but I don’t see a continuation of civilization based on this model.

  8. @Vektor – “I used to see my child every day. Now I don’t. It has left a hole in my heart that will never heal. My world view is VERY changed.”

    Yep. Fucking yep. The more Red Pill I become, the more the loss of fatherhood and family outrages me. The more I realize how central it’s loss has been to destroying me in ways I never knew. I used to cry most Sunday nights on the drive home after dropping my daughter off. One Sunday, I began to well up too soon, I couldn’t hold the sadness in and my ex reminded me how much she hated when her Dad cried when he dropped her off after custody…Shut up and fucking pull, mule, fucking pull!

    You see the real problem was that I was sad about it all, not that my family had been ripped away from me cuz my ex wanted to optimize before her looks gave out – and off course he never was good enough either cuz she’s a narcissist. . And this was long before I was alienated from my daughter.

    I’m supposed to go play a little showcase tonight and I just don’t feel like it. Have to change my state. I’m finding having all my illusions removed really challenging these days. I really see my hand in everything now and I don’t like what I see.

  9. @ScribblerG

    OK I have found a solution to between the extremes of MGTOW and Performance Burden: Only pursue and have sex with married women.

    What leverage could a woman possibly have over you in that case? If you get her pregnant, it’s someone else’s problem. She has no leverage to financially extort you. In fact, you will have all the leverage to financially extort her if you choose to. Fuck you and your marriage, Rollo. I hereby decree to the manosphere that married women, including your wife, are now fair game.

  10. @Infojunkie – What a petty little cunt you are. And oh yeah, good luck fucking Rollo’s wife, tell me, what chance do you think you have of outgaming Rollo? And we know you don’t really mean this, it’s just more adolescent bullshit from a frustrated MGTOW who knows he doesn’t measure up. Go away, man-child, adults are speaking.

  11. The good news is infojunkie pissed me off and now I feel like warming up and rehearsing to play tonight. This must be what it’s like when women use Infojunkie as a BetaOrbiter and use him as an emotional tampon, and then laugh at him, sometimes right in his face. I think I someone actually referring to him on twitter under #makinghimwait…

    Don’t being a knife to a gunfight, bitch.

  12. @Scribbler: Although a bit out of fashion, bayonets were invented for a reason; sometimes you run out of bullets before you run out of zombies.

    Have a good gig.

  13. @infoflunkie, you’re welcome to have a go at it.

    What’s entertaining about agro MGTOWs is that they think Mrs. T is completely clueless about the ‘sphere, the two books and the 14+ years I’ve been writing.

    We had some pretty memorable sex the night before I got on a plane to do the MiD talk too.

  14. @info

    I hereby decree to the manosphere that married women, including your wife, are now fair game.

    Hahaha, you think you’re decreeing that? How many times has YaReally laughed as he poked Rollo about the fact that it’s always been the case? How many times has Rollo grinned back and basically said “Bring it, bitch”? How many times did I have to drill home to Andy that his wife is always on the market due to the amorality of what’s learned here? How many guys here have stories of having hooked up with married women in the past, myself included?

    Fuck you and your LARPing. You don’t need to decree shit. A Red Pilled guy knows that every woman is on the market all the time. Period. No decrees needed. It’s a matter of making your Game and value better than the market to her.

    You would get that if you weren’t such a simpering little bitch that’s already given up on his own self-improvement. Way to give us a graphic illustration of what MGTOW is effectively a denial of reality and the burden it places on us, bitch.

  15. @ScribblerG

    Actually I have no interest in Rollo’s wife, but someone might. In the workplace, it’s always married women trying to game me… You barely even have to try at all with them.

  16. Hey Glenn, hyperagency can be a bitch. But just because your actions contributed to something doesn’t mean it was your fault. This is our ecosystem – the tide is going out and we’ve lost sight of land. Some people have a notion and try swimming in a random direction. Most have no idea – they blame the waves.

    Here’s the redpill. You’ve been tossed a compass. But you still need to interpret it, and then you still need to swim.

    I’m feeling pretty down myself for whatever reason right now. I have hours of boring work ahead of me yet. Video is due Monday. And I’m just tired. Been throwing my guts out there for a while now, nearly every day – out when I can (not too much lately what with the holidays), at work I work on my social guts and game. Still not getting girls because I’ve not structured things to give me workable logistics. My skills are getting much better but it’s just tiring right now put all my energy out there and go home with a healthy libido that hasn’t seen full action in perhaps two years now.

    I’ve got a much smaller downer on my brain. But it’s still dragging me the fuck down. I’ve said it before but I’ll admit it again – I see the old oneitis daily at work, she’s a total ice queen to me and frankly I still care a lot more than I should. Redlight suggested once something like ‘why don’t you just ignore her always?’ and that kinda stuck in my craw because I realized I couldn’t. I would resolve to and then she’d find some fucking way to pull a reaction out of me. Well, I got my head straight a little back and just started ignoring her. A few days in and I could see she was actively suffering from it. Fucker is still feeding off of me. Yesterday I decided to burn shit down a bit – I handed her something and she said ‘a-thank’ya!’ with a contemptuous air, so I faced her and asked her jovially (was in a good mood) if she could maybe do that little contemptuous chin wag again, it seemed kinda halfhearted. Her – ‘No, it was just enough.’ Me – ‘You could at least move your head back and forth when you say that. Show a little sass.’ Her – ‘I don’t need to do that.’ Me – ‘Hey, I’m showing you tons of attitude here, the least you could do is try to keep up!’ Her – ‘Well, YOU’RE reacting to it – so that means I’m winning.’ Me – laugh loudly, turn away.

    You’re reacting to it, so I’m winning. That’s the game. I was blown away to hear it in so many words. No matter if it crushes me. It’s a dance of wills, a source of indignation, a test for a man she thought was beta. All while she fucks the manager right in front of me, poisoning the work relationship. I’m sure he knows, he won’t look me in the eye. Me? I’m dragged down by the bad feelz not infrequently, and my doc thinks I might be developing some thyroid issues. Stress-related.

    For teh tinglz! I’ll give her little ‘game’ this, it at least creates a fertile vein of emotions in both of us to exploit if she ever wants something to ‘just happen’ with me. At least, it would if I were the common oblivious BP chump.

    Have a lot more good days now, and my bad days are far better than they were even six months ago. The response girls have to me is better than I ever thought it could be pre-game. Things are good. But when I’m just wiped and down?

    Fuck that noise.

    What kind of music do you play?

  17. @ all respondents to inceljunkie1984
    homerun hits. way to put a boy in his place. nice

    Rcently made friends with a guy of armenian background. He related to me that, as we were getting to know each other, he thought I was italian. I’m an anglo. As a kid I looked quintisentially irish: brown hair, freckles and blue eyes. After aging, the Mediteranean genes (1/4 French-Canadian- my ancestors go all the way back to ‘l’Habitation’ in New France in the 1660’s but came from south-west france) came out. We had a laugh as I related how, growing up in Toronto for 30 odd years, I frequently had guys come up to me and speak italian, even albanian. I told my new friend over coffee last night how I’ve never fit in as an Anglophone-thats english-canadian for you all.
    Anyhow, we hang out, drink coffee, eat and smoke-very old-world Mediteranean guy-world vibe. He is naturally red pill. We laugh, joke and curse about women, the govt, corporations and the abysmal state of the economy. He was lucky enough to learn french and armenian growing up and picked up some portugese as well. He commented on how I picked up on what he was saying quickly en francais. I’m really hoping.we can began to converse in french soon. I studied french in school and spanish at uni. Great opportunity for both of us for friendship. We arent quite at the point to hunt pussy together yet but soon. Tomorrow we’re gonna chill-beer, weed, food and poker. I’m going to get him to teach me some armenian so we can signal each other when we’re out viz a viz: pussy and threats- where we live is tough, criminals and cops are.dangerous here, etc
    To me brotherhood and my word is everything. Honour, loyalty. This is the way it has been for us men for hundreds of thousands of.years-hunting in teams. It’s only recent.that a certain percentage became bitches. They are literally dead to me. As are women that I have no interest in fucking.

    My new amigo said something very interesting to me recently over coffee. I commented on how I wished I knew everything I knew now 20 years ago. He said its not too late. I really appreciated his positivity and encouragement. The unspoken for.both of us is.our.desire for wives and kids, especially sons, but our rape. To reciprocate, I’m teach him how to run a still-an east coaster taught me how to make screech when I was 19 (again, brotherhood).
    What really cracks me up is that in public we walk and talk-waving our arms, gesticulating, etc-and all the repressed canadian sheep around us stare. They are so repressed and lobotomized that to see us having a lively convo is intimidating. I am completely convinced vast amounts of behaviour is ingrained. I have talked with my hands for over 30 years. No on else in my extended family does. I am convinced I have genes from a great-father that no one else got.
    Growing.up in this culture has been agonizing for me. I’ve been working towards emigration for.a long-time. It aint easy.
    All the above may seem trivial, self-indulgent even. I lost my to suicide. I would.have.gone in it doesnt work that way. I lost my other brother, a cousin, to betahood. I’ve had a hole in my life for nearly 15 years. Now.I’m Then I’m go out and.get me some holes with trim around it. I wish the same for all the brothers here on trm.

  18. @misinformed&junky

    A man has respect for another mans property.If you put her up in the boyosphere that may be a tiny threat.
    Maybe these maried women at work pity you as they are more attuned to what is happening than you are or should be for that matter.

  19. @scribblerg
    I always love a new gig everything i build is a new adventure in the planning and work.Keep a positve vision of the outcome and enjoy the journey.

  20. @Vektor

    Dude, your world changed. I mean I was quoted there and I did read worldview, which I believe means a completely different thing. Meaning of course that as a red piller you expect that. You consider that a woman can be hypergamous and screw you over. It is in the cards, it’s part of the game. I am not saying is better or worse. But at least the difference is that you know what you are getting into. That is the burden of knowledge when it comes to this. If as a red piller you do not consider that as a possibility, then you allowed yourself to dream and to believe that dream.

    I used to believe that you need to suspend your disbelief in order to enjoy a female. I know believe that you need to believe, you need to understand and accept. Once you do it feels like understanding how a visual illusion works, because of how the brain processes the information, yet you still see it, but you expect it to happen. The difference is you can choose to look away because you are no longer captivated as much by the PURE MAGIC of it all.

    That is the difference.

  21. Women have a burden of performance too. It’s “don’t get fat”.

    Modern women’s response to this? Fat activism; not only are they refusing their burden, they’re demanding that men find it sexy. It’s analogous to if a large movement formed that demanded women to find beta/nice guys sexually arousing.

    How disgusted/offended we are at fat activism is probably equal to what women feel towards the men who complain about being friendzoned.

    Also, Rollo, you should put a spotlight on this article:

    The gist: low income men aren’t deadbeat dads. This illusion is literally caused by hypergamy: women trading in their “baby daddy” for a higher status man, and keeping the baby daddy away from the kid for no other reason than hypergamy.

  22. I thought I understood MGTOW, but now I’m confused by the comments here.

    ” Yes, it is. It’s called a delusional mindset. It leads you to engage in an endless quest for the mythical NAWALT. Instead, give up the BS fantasy of finding the perfect Disney Princess who will love you forever for just being yourself, and accept that no woman gives a damn who you are inside, they just want you to be the man that gives them the tingles or the guy with the money – – preferably both. Accept this reality and live a self-fulfilling life. MGTOW”

    I’m dumbfounded.

    I understand this sentiment much better –

    ” … but even though I live well off enough to put my daughter through college and enjoy my toys, I still think ‘I can do better’ and I devise ways to make more money so I can help myself, my extended family, my friends in need and the causes I think are worthwhile.

    Do either of you believe that men ‘can do better’ and live a better life – one filled with interesting things to do and a peace unlike any other to be found, untethered to a woman financially, psychologically or legally – by adopting and enacting a MGTOW defined life?

    Congratulations, you’ve just engaged in exactly the male idealism I’ve outlined in this post.”

    Can I do better…. seems logically male to me.

    Niko appears to make much more sense. There are points I disagree with a little, but at least I can wrap my head around his expressions.

    People can do whatever they like, but men should always be encouraged to understand a problem and at least try to find a workaround and not throw their proverbial hands up in surrender.

    At the risk of coming off like a dime store motivational speaker, men can surprise themselves at what they are actually capable of. It’s just a matter of Understanding and Will.

    Your born into this world initially only being capable of Eating, Crying and Shitting, for the most part. None of us ( I hope ) stayed in that mode.

    I have surprised the living shit out of myself multiple times in life. Too bad we gotta get old, but that just changes the challenges. Now I want to see what I can do into old age.

    If you say ” why “, I’ll always answer ” Why Not?”.

    Further upstream Rollo ( again, beat me to the damn punch ) made a comment about ( paraphrasing ) looking at buildings, listening to music, etc. and witnessing ” idealism “. I think folks take idealism to mean it’s most extreme version, one that renders a person trapped in a fantasy-like world. But that ain’t it. Can..I…Do…Better?

    I don’t think it wise for a man to abdicate his duties as a male. There’s no easy way out really. I mean, you can trick yourself into believing that you’re happier throwing in the towel on a major aspect of male life, but are you 100% satisfied when you look in the mirror? Can you KILL generations of evolution that easily?

    We can adapt to both positive and negative situations. That’s how we grow stronger, smarter…add faster like the six million dollar man for shits and giggles.

    I’m fairly disappointed at the world I see coming, but I’m encouraged by finding workarounds so that I can Do Better.

  23. @scribblerg

    Re: David Caroll vid.

    I’m not a huge fan of David. But I must say that he is spot on in the vid you posted. He has his moments. I reached the same conclusion he speaks of 20 years ago.

    That’s why my take is that we need to legislate Child support, Welfare/section 8 and food stamps out of existence. Sounds harsh, I know, but I promise no one will starve to death in the U.S.. If people do start starving, we then need to legislate churches out of existence.

    Government funding fuels broken families and hypergamy. That same funding diminishes personal responsibility.

    David hates everything, lol, but the rap on effeminate males being raised by single moms is pure gold.

  24. @Blaximus: “That works well also.”

    The difference is that “Why not?” is arbitrary and hands frame to them when they start to tell you exactly why not.

    If Mallory had answered “Why not?,” the interview would have effectively ceased and changed into the interviewer lecturing him on what an idiot he was.

    “Because” is directed and dominant.

    Because . . . it’s there.
    Because . . . I can.
    Because . . . I look at you and it scares me that I could end up like that if just give up.

  25. Niko’s video at the beginning of the post was somewhat interesting to me, and I respect his point of view. The thing is, I don’t feel like I’m denying some part of myself by being stoic. Some of us display little of those emotions that can be perceived as “weakness” to people around us with minimal or no effort. It’s a quality that people have commented on about me for most of my adult life. It’s not because it’s being suppressed, it’s just not a natural response to cry, be afraid, etc. in most situations. An exception? I got a text two weeks ago that a friend of mine had died. He’s someone who was a friend to me when I desperately needed one. It brought back memories of long conversations, arguments, and a lot of good times. I cried. No one around at the time. I didn’t feel the need to be comforted, and still don’t. I probably hadn’t cried in 7+ yrs. Not because I’m shooting for “Hardass of the Year” award, but because very few situations call for it.

    His death also brought back to me a recurring thought. The most meaningful conversations I’ve had in my life have been with other men. Women seem to only superficially relate to the male experience. I don’t expect them to see the world the way I do anymore. It’s impossible for a woman to not interject her self interest into the equation. Does it mean that she may perceive you as weak if you cry, appear fearful, etc? Absolutely. A common response would be for her to distance herself from you, and potentially seek a man that doesn’t display those emotions. I’ve encountered numerous women that have told me seeing a man cry is difficult to watch, and the reactions range from revulsion to pity to laughing. As we all know, the expectations placed on her by friends, family, and society at large are very different than the ones placed on men. That won’t change any time soon. You can’t “opt out”, or reason with them to normalize it in their eyes.

  26. @Edelweiss: it is difficult for most adults to see another adult cry I think, man or woman. That is part of the reason many women use crying to manipulate others (men and women alike). It is a bit different when men cry, at least in the sense that I don’t think many men pull off using it to their advantage.

  27. @Tab Spangler

    I once saw a patient who was asking for Viagra for erectile dysfunction. The patient told me that in essence he couldn’t perform sexually with his wife anymore and it was causing problems. When asked if he still gets morning wood, or whether he gets hard to pornography the man answered categorically Yes. I had to explain to him that he doesn’t suffer with erectile dysfunction but rather he simply does not find his wife attractive anymore. I ended up giving that man Cialis…. to save his marriage.

    It is not just women that suffer with this. Men suffer with it also. I went through it in my last relationship and I was 25… and she was a fucking hot 21 year old. The constant moaning compromised my sexual appetite for that woman no matter how attractive she was visually, I just didn’t want to fuck her.

    I remember actually telling her. I can look at the pictures I took of you and get a hard on and wank one off. But I just don’t want to fuck you.

  28. @FTS

    I do not defend polygyny, I advocate it. The reason I advocate it is it’s a solution to just about every single problem the MGTOW’s cite to justify giving up on women.

    nearly no man will succeed at attaining this arrangement… it’s for an elite few.

    It’s true that only high-value men (alphas) can handle getting a polygynous marriage started, but that’s because women have to be extremely attracted to a man in order to make the choice to share him rather than hold out for monogamy. Given a choice between guys of equal value, women will pick monogamy almost every single time, so the guy she commits to in a poly situation has to be higher or significantly higher than anything she could get for monogamy. And we’re talking MMV, so that means he has to be high MMV, not just high SMV. Game and Red Pill wisdom teach us that while only a small percentage of men are naturally alpha, if a man is willing to do the work he can become alpha. How alpha he becomes is dependent on how hard he’s willing to work and sacrifice max out his potential, but MMV is really more reflective of Donal Graeme’s LAMPS model: Looks, Athleticism, Money, Power and Status.

    The thing is, your comment about “only the elite few” and low-income women is a reflection of your lack of confidence in yourself and you need to work on that. Any guy who can effectively spin plates and at least occasionally get women into a threesome can initiate a hard poly relationship if he goes about it the right way. It starts one on one, developing a relationship with women who want to get married. If they don’t want to get married they aren’t worth investing any time in.

    1. Give them the best sex and relationship of their lives, individually.
    2. Add threesomes with other plates to each relationship. The girls get to know each other within your frame in a sexual environment. Better to start in a sexual environment than a social environment because getting naked tends to strip away pretense and makes social relationship development easier. Rotate plates for the threesomes until all girls have been with all other girls.
    3. Get them all together socially and later start group playtime. If they haven’t already figured out where you were going before, they will now.
    4. 1st level commitment: everyone moves in together.
    5. 2nd level commitment: formalize the arrangement with a marriage contract.
    6. Buns in ovens. It only takes one, babies are contagious.

    For a high-value guy with tight game, what I just described is not that difficult. It’s sure as hell not beginner action, but in the same way it doesn’t take a YaReally to get this to work. If I could get poly commitment when I didn’t even know what game was, just about anybody that’s willing to do the work can do it.

    Women are like a cat chasing a piece of string. It’s exciting, tremendous fun until they catch it, but after they’ve caught it they immediately get bored and walk off. Women are much the same, it just takes them longer to get bored once they catch what they were chasing. Women love competition and drama with other woman and this is one of the reasons a poly relationship works: the cat is always almost catching the string, only to have it get away again. In a poly relationship the competition and drama never goes away and the women not only *like* that, they *want* that.

    The rule for success is to give the market what it wants.

    While the competition is really tough in some major metro areas, there are still plenty of places in the US where just being buff, having so-so game and an above-average job/income will put you in the top 15% of all the guys attractive women will meet. If you’re in your early thirties, at least 5′ 8″ with a sculpted physique, washboard abs, tight game, a high income and a big dick, you are definitely one of the elite few. The only question for most guys is whether they’re willing to do the work to get there. More than half of all guys could if they wanted to.

    Claiming that “only the elite few” can get a polygynous marriage ignores the fact that so few guys are willing to make the effort to *become* one of the “elite few” (a nice advantage for those who actually do make the effort). My observation is most guys won’t even consider polygyny because of fear and/or ignorance. I have a friend who is fond of saying that guys aren’t willing to consider polygyny until after they’ve had a weekend threesome with a couple of uninhibited horny women, because they don’t know what they’re missing until they’ve had a taste.

    I didn’t mention it earlier, but polygyny has one extra-special advantage when it comes to the available women in any guy’s local area: The structure and dynamics of polygyny will handle former carousel riders without problems, women who are completely unfit for monogamy because of their years riding the cock carousel. In fact, the advantage of going poly with sluts is they’ve already trained themselves to share a guy with other women and usually don’t have any problem with group sex because the years chasing alpha pretty much guarantees they have experience with threesomes.

    I know it’s anathema to most guys in the manosphere, but there are also plenty of single moms out there who are open to going poly if the guy can accept their kids and they would seriously appreciate the economic and financial security such a marriage offered. Believe it or not, the fastest growing segment of homeless in the US are homeless families, which are almost exclusively single mothers and their children. The leading cause of homelessness for families is a catastrophic vehicle breakdown. There are a lot of hurting single moms out there and as the economy gets worse their situation isn’t going to get better.

    For older guys, mid-40’s to early 50’s, there are plenty of attractive, divorced women from their early 30’s to early 40’s who have now discovered the guys they’re attracted to aren’t interested in them for anything other than a pump and dump. They are a lot easier than you might think, the only problem being even the women in their early 30’s are on the downhill slope of their fertility and what’s the point of marrying them if they can’t give you children?

    If one thinks about it, as more and more men drop out of the marriage market, there will be a growing pool of women who really want to get married but a declining number of suitable prospects (to them) for marriage. This means it’s a buyers market for the guy that’s willing to put in his time and do the work of maximizing his potential and polygyny will just get easier as the trend of abandoning marriage continues.

    But if society accepts this as the norm?

    Better plan some pretty huge wars to cull the male population a bit. Or the patriarchs may just find themselves the victims of various ‘mysterious circumstances’ in short order.

    I get this all the time and I love the contradiction:

    “If society accepts this as the norm, even though only the elite few can do it, there will still be huge masses of betas who can’t get a wife and mass chaos will follow.”

    Sorry, logic fail. I’ve heard the argument before and it’s a bullshit argument because it’s based on anecdotes about the FLDS Mormon fundies who believe every man should have multiple wives. That’s why they dump the excess young men (lost boys) and marry off the girls really young to much older men- if they let the girls grow up they’d refuse to go poly with the beta herbs they’re being pimped to.

    In a reasonably free society probably 85% to 90% of the male population doesn’t have what it takes to get a poly household started regardless of the women involved. Currently I’d guess at least 25% of the male population is incapable of ever getting married (serious felons, drug addicted, alcoholic, beta losers, gammas and omegas), and while at least 25% of the unmarried women are BPD/NPD batshit crazy and/or land-whales, there are still plenty of thirsty betas willing to marry them. That’s why women get away with the whole BBW meme.

    Yet, guys think that polygyny is the beginning of the end of civilization. Wake Up! What you are parroting is part of the FI conditioning process that has convinced you monogamy (which confers power to the women) is the only way to go. That is utter horseshit. Society is arguably far more in danger of major problems from high-value men spinning plates (keeping them off the market) than hard polygyny, which takes the high-value guys off the market and allows assortive mating to occur.

    Understand this: the limiting factor on what percentage of men could start a poly marriage is the number and attractiveness of women willing to accept such a marriage and the guy willing to initiate such a marriage with said women. The guy needs to have a higher or substantially higher MMV than the women in order for them to buy into a poly relationship because if it’s a choice of polygyny or monogamy with guys of equal value, women will choose monogamy every time and then try to bang the alpha on the side.

    At the same time, no high-value guy with an SMV of 9 or better that can pull HB8’s and HB9’s in the monogamy frame will settle for 5’s and 6’s just to get a poly commitment. Settling for a combination of HB7’s and HB8’s is conceivable, but that’s where economic and geographic factors come into play. The undereducated HB9 living paycheck to paycheck while working a low-income dead-end job surrounded by losers is far more likely to seriously consider a poly marriage than a HB7.5 with a nice corporate job and plenty of high-value men giving her attention.

    As with fishing, the right equipment and the right bait at the right time in the right location will generally result in a nice catch.

    There is one other aspect of polygyny that applies to middle-aged men. There is no reason why at least one of the women couldn’t be significantly older than the other women and assume the role of “den-mother” for the younger wives while providing more mature company for the husband (you can’t stay in bed forever). If the desire and money is there, getting one of the younger wives to donate an egg for IVF can give the older one a baby and keeps it all in the family. If not, a little hormonal manipulation and nipple stimulation can get any woman lactating, regardless of her age (Google ‘adult nursing relationship’ if curious). When the younger ones have babies the older wife can take her turn nursing them and bond with them even if she didn’t have one herself. That allows even older wives to fit within the frame of “all wives are ‘Mom’ to all children.”

    I relate that because it’s almost never too late to get what you want out of life, but if what you want is truly worth having you’re going to have to work for it. Most people have no clue how things used to be, so I’ll share a family story:

    My great-great grandfather was born during the presidency of George Washington. He served in the army under Andrew Jackson during the Creek Indian war. He married his third wife (42 years younger than he was) at the age of 63, a few years before the Civil War began. He went *back* into service and survived the Civil War to return home to his wife. He fathered two children before fathering my great-grandfather at the age of 78 and kept going. His last child was born when he was 82 and his wife was 40 and he lived until the ripe old age of 94 and died in his sleep. His wife never re-married although she was a strikingly good-looking woman well into her 60’s. She continued to collect her Civil War widow’s pension until she died in 1934 at the age of 97.

    My great-grandfather busted his ass and worked his way through college and later medical school. He followed somewhat in his Dad’s footsteps, fathering my grandfather at the young age of 52 with his third wife, who was 33 years younger than he was. His divorced his first wife within 6 months of marriage and his second wife died during the Spanish flue epidemic, leaving him with 3 children. His third wife was the 18 year old daughter of a husband and wife he was treating and he got to know her while treating her parents and several of her siblings, all of whom died. By the time all the funerals were over she was trying to support her three surviving younger siblings and had fallen in love with my great-grandfather. They married shortly afterward and he helped raise her siblings alongside his own children from his second wife and later they had children of their own.

    If any of you want a reality check on life, go visit an old cemetery that was active from the late 1800’s through the 1940’s, spend some time reading the inscriptions, look at the dates and give it some thought and try to imagine what it was like for the people then. This is actually a fantastic date idea if you’re trying to emotionally connect with a woman that seems out of reach.

    There’s something about looking at the grave markers for three or four young children from the same family who all died within a month of each other that turns women into a boneless bag of emotional goo. If you have a good relationship with a woman, want to take it a step further and emotionally bond with her, this is a good way to do it (especially if you think of her as marriage material). It’s also a test: if she isn’t fazed by what she’s seeing and can’t relate, probabilities are high that she’s got serious cluster B issues and you need to cut her out of your life as fast as possible.

    It’s easier for me to do that than the vast majority of guys because the most difficult job I ever did was give the eulogy at the funeral of one of my children. There is nothing that can duplicate the euphoric feeling you get as a man when you come through the door at the end of the day and your child drops what they’re doing and runs toward you with arms outstretched screaming “Daaaadddy!” Likewise, there is no wound that cuts so deep as having to bury your own child.

    Raising children right requires both a mother and father (the feminist and MGTOW arguments against this are simply two sides of the same coin) and that’s best done in a structure called marriage, which is supposed to be a committed relationship. Unfortunately, monogamy is broken beyond all repair under the current legal regime and that’s one reason why I advocate polygyny, but it won’t jump into your arms- you have to work for it. I don’t care about guys who don’t want to spend the time and energy working for it, but it would be nice if they’d stop their MGTOW bitching about women because there is a solution and it’s not my fault if they’re either emotionally unequipped to deal with it or to lazy to work for it.

  29. @Niko: I know what you meant, but the wording was funny – I smirked at “The constant moaning compromised my sexual appetite for that woman (…)”.

  30. “There’s something about looking at the grave markers for three or four young children from the same family who all died within a month of each other . . .”

    I am familiar with cemeteries that were active in the 1600’s. The plurality of graves are for children under 2 years old. In some the majority.

  31. Lol ‘Hey babe wanna come look at graves with me?’ I’m imagining this line would be killer in a cocktail lounge pickup.

    In all seriousness though. That is an interesting vetting idea in the right context.

    I don’t think my comment about ‘lower income women’ was unreasonable- you reflected the same idea in your comment, and I don’t have a particularly large income.

    My reservation about this becoming accepted by society at large assumes its actual practice would become common. As men without access to women tend to become….restless. You need to find a way to deal with the extra men. Mormons tend to use excommunication, which is s more humane method than most but presumes a wider society for them to be excommunicated to.

    But if it’s an aspirational thing a few men choose to go for, I have no issues. Indeed, I basically agree with you that it’s the only way to simultaneously have an LTR and spin plates. I’m actually vetting an arrangement like that as a long-term aspiration for me I suppose. I’m still in my twenties, so that may be why some of this seems kinda remote to me. Need more experience spinning plates and (hopefully) develop more income over time.

    Frankly the biggest real obstacle I see is that it would tend to make you a bit of a social pariah. Some people would understand. Others wouldn’t. I’d lose some friends, most churches wouldn’t have me (not a big deal for me, but might be for some people) and about half of the extended family wouldn’t want us to visit. Plus just general social disapproval.

    I mean, it’s easy to just say ‘fuck what people think! Im’a do ME!’ But that shit wears at you over time.

    YaReally is experimenting with ‘PLTR’ arrangements that help with some of that while preserving many of the benefits you describe (though not all – no group mothering, less cat-string competitiveness (though still much more than in monogamy)).

    All stuff to consider. Both arrangements take lots of work on yourself of course, but the end result sounds a hell of a lot better than perpetual singledom.

    The general consensus here is that modern monogamy is broken. Rollo has often said that if he found himself single in today’s environment he would never marry.

    Yours and YaReally’s stuff are the first real signs I’m seeing of men trying to find a stable workaround.

  32. Hey Toad,

    How does sleeping work generally? Does everyone just sleep in a big pile? Or does each girl get her own bedroom and you get the master bedroom? Or is there just one ‘master’ and one ‘girls’ room where they have beds?

    Not trying to be an ass lol I’m actually curious how this works out.

  33. @Forge – Great, honest comment up above. A few thoughts, probably not shocking to you. First, it’s simple – you have Oneitis for this broad and you admit it, so what the fuck are you doing? Oneitis is death for men, so it is nothing to play around with. My reco? Stop all contact beyond that which is required in the workplace. Excise her now. You are a strong man, exercise some discipline.

    More generally, wrt your game, I’m in a similar place in that escalating and closing the deal are still weak points for me. Are you doing a formal PUA course? I suggest RSD Julien’s Pimp – I’m still working through it but it’s pure genius. There are others out there Natural Lifestyle, Simple Pickup – check out their vids on YouTube but don’t stop there – do one of their real video courses. I think RSD is the best by far though. Also, do you have a wingman?

    Taking on PUS seriously is also a sure way to accelerate your Red Pill growth – for me it’s putting it on steroids. It’s not fun or easy in real ways – my emotions are all over the place from having to confront my habits and thinking and POV. Nothing will challenge your remaining Blue Pill thinking and Betahood like formal gaming and PUA training. There is a real danger to us to be LARPers here on TRM, thinking it’s all we need. I also downloaded The Book of YaReally linked earlier in this thread. Hint: Pimp is available as a torrent so if you know what that means you can find it for nothing.

  34. Mini FR: So I went out to play my gig last night – it was an “originals” showcase at a small venue a guy in town is putting together. I’m a singer/songwriter, playing guitar. My music is best categorized as a bluesy/folks Americana, Neil Young is a huge musical influence for me and people who know him can detect that in some of my songs.

    The 52 yr old woman I’d met and dated in early December was there – she’s the fading super hottie, looks like a 40 yr old who was the prom queen? Tight bod, pretty face – I’d written her off as a “gold digger” and crazy woman but when I walked in and saw her, I recalled SJF’s remonstrations to me here and on the phone and over email to play with what’s given to me. To be with what is. To make what I want out of what I find. I realized that my game is improving rapidly and that perhaps I should just play it out.

    Short story is we went out for drinks and i regaled her with my frame and my dreams. I also listened and was supportive as she’d had a friend die this week and just went to the wake yesterday. She was sweet and fun and attentive and responded to my game and frame. She’s LTR material for me at this point. I ended the night with a kiss – it was not a highly sexualized encounter and I didn’t feel like fucking her. Younger guys might not get this but we have a real companion, older person vibe going that has romantic spikes. I’m also having to work through some real cynicism with her so I’m taking my time. I made huge progress with her and will develop her a potential LTR. Of course, if the sexual vibe doesn’t work out soon, I’ll pass but I know now from Pimp that I can create that and I could see the right signals last night. It’s quite interesting to be methodical about this and to know how it all works.

    It was a nice night and I enjoyed her company. As aside, it’s also a bit of DHV at a joint where I’m developing a presence. My date is strikingly attractive and people just notice her where ever she goes, and I could see younger women eyeing me around the room, and the staff who I’m getting to know also took notice.

    My progress? I felt like I knew what I was doing. I pulled her chair closer to me – actually told her to do it and she did. Held her hand for a while, got a real emotional connnection going. I took her on an emotional journey with a story I told her and also spoke a lot about how I saw life and what I wanted etc which she was enthralled by. I felt more at ease and realized that she was acting flaky to me last go around likely in part due to the signals I was giving. Women are truly like lumps of clay, waiting for a man to come along and shape them.

  35. @Art Toad – Holy shit, so much wisdom in what you shared, keep it coming (in more bite size chunks if you can, lol). It again makes me realize how low I’ve set my sights and how unwilling I am to really work for what I want. Great inspiration and insights, thanks!!!

  36. @BobNotBitchin’SoMuch – Dude, I was so fucking happy to read your comment. Male companionship of the right sort, in particular that old world vibe you described so well is incredibly grounding and confirming for men like us. Sounds like you’ve found a wing and a real friend. But it also sounds like you are playing bigger and are accessing more of your joy so HOORAY for that!

    One comment. As I said to Forge above, consider doing a real PUA course (not live, a video one is fine) and having your wing do it too. My wing is becoming a real problem actually and I may have to upgrade. I won’t go into it here but suffice it to say, the better I get, the more I see how he’s not a good partner. Also, you will accelerate your Red Pill growth, and smash your inner game by doing any of the courses from Julien or Tyler at Real Social Dynamics. And if you are put off by their style, realize this is likely about how their style challenges your ego investments in your identity.

    What did you make of Artisanal Toad’s commentary?

  37. @Redlight – Yup, guys here should be incredibly circumspect about their overall identity. As a related aside, we should also be thoughtful about how and whom we engage. When I shared what I found about Emily on her public Google+ page, I realized that this might be an incentive to have someone actually dox me – and I have an actual and meaningful social media presence for my own business online so it really matters for me. In a way, provoking someone in that way was incredibly stupid of me.

    I don’t get into the Redpill much anywhere else but here. I’m in it to aggrandize myself and build my life. I do get carried away sometimes but really, I never change anyone’s mind when I do, so what am I really doing? Answer: I’m LARPing as a Red Pill Warrior and that is not who I want to be.

    Just a thought, and of course, thanks for sharing that, it’s an important reminder that we are all at risk.

  38. some formulas in a couple of comments on r/TheRedPill

    Alpha = Frame + Game

    …but for the person who is less far along we have:

    MGTOW = Frame

    …those who are Blue Pill:

    Beta = Slavery

    …and let’s not forget:

    PUA = Game

    …from this we might derive:

    MGTOW + PUA = Alpha

    …which is kind of funny,

    Frame + Game + Slavery = Alpha + Beta = Marriage

  39. Not read all comments here yet but just to say 100% agree on the doxxing stuff. It doesn’t even have to be outright doxxing. Do you really want your comments here taken out of context and misinterpreted as being a rape apologist, online stalker (re some of the more aggressive comments made to/about Emily for example) etc?

    Even more important when actually posting Field Reports.

    Everything I post is true, but I make damn sure to hide identifying details that are not relevant to the story (like if I say I went out on Tuesday, it might be Wednesday, and so on).

    Remember there are two levels of anonymity online. Ask yourself:

    1. Will a stranger reading this (or with this information) be able to identify me in real life?

    2. Will someone *who knows me in real life* be able to recognize me from reading my comment?

    Most people forget No.2. Even if no one online can identify you from a post (and remember it’s not just a single post – it’s what they can figure out from reading ALL your posts), you don’t want Bob from Accounting reading your FR on Monday morning going “This guy is talking about going to a salsa dancing bar on Friday and talking to a 6’1″ blonde..wait, wasn’t Dave from IT talking to a super-tall blonde on Friday night at the salsa bar..hmm..”

    That way lies disaster. And if you’re married – 100x.

    And it DOES happen. I’m on another anonymous discussion board related to my work and have had the bizarre experience of calling a professional contact and leaving a message with his colleague, to be surprised 15 min later by a post online commenting about the call and what the voice of the guy calling sounded like..

  40. my worst experience of *who knows me in real life* was being on an online hookup site, and having a conversation with my sister-in-law (wife’s brother’s spouse) to the point we both started to suspect who the other was

  41. I can’t comment too much about the MGTOW, but regarding idealism.

    “Romance” was co-opted in much the same “Chivalry” was. We don’t describe ourselves as romantic, because that sounds like sappy romantic comedy nonsense, but the actual Romantic movement had more to do with connecting to your own raw emotions and the world at large.

    The correct terminology is “romanticizing” something. For instance, people often “romanticize” old houses because all the shit shacks they built in the 20s aren’t standing anymore.
    “Oh, the beautiful plaster walls, the hardwood trims everywhere!”
    Romanticizing the old home.

    Compare to me whining about uneven stud spacing or something. Or asbestos. Focusing on the negatives instead of romanticizing.

    Chivalry underwent the same treatment. It was a code of battle for the High Middle Ages due to the increasing numbers of knights. Didn’t have jack shit to do with giving her flowers or holding doors open on the first date.

    Co-opted to reduce your options and put you into the service of the FI.

  42. @ScribblerG and Forge the Sky

    Check your email.

    I’m still in no comment mode until the next essay. As a masculine self-improvement stunt. And I am experiencing an Extinction Burst.

  43. I probably don’t manage my Wife as well as I should since I am prone to an angry response once in a while. Generally my response is an aggressive: “Seriously? Better change that attitude.”

    I can think of one point in the last year she really pushed the envelope and I gave her a good verbal lashing. No repeats.

    Anyways, I need to assemble this snowblower. Chicago-land area is getting 1-3″ today and I already see falling flakes. Don’t want to kill my back shoveling shit again.

  44. Haha @redlight

    Just stepped back from the brink eh?

    Did both of you KNOW for sure or both suspected and just stopped communicating? (Also, um – wouldn’t you have recognized each other from photos?)

  45. @niko your idea of giving the patient Cialis was a good one for a different reason. This is according to a couple of high-TMI acquaintances of mine who talked way too much about their issues with this stuff (and one saying how he needed to use ArtSem to create an EnSoc, knowhutahmsayin?).

    They could get wood just fine, but couldn’t maintain it for a long period – though they said they could still climax after going soft! The Cialis just gave them more hard time, so to speak, so as not to go all flippy floppy.

    Yes I should start hanging out at different bars with less-TMI neighbors.

  46. We did not know for sure (we were using aliases, no pictures), but strongly suspected due to information exchanged, and stopped communicating

  47. @DefBeta – Much more the topic of “romantic love” (not just romance). Here is a great link

    The entire site, is a good resource for RP men to learn about how “courtly love” and chivalry emerged to control men. While the impulses were not new, the formal social conventions which emerged in medieval times in court were new expressions of them and still linger in Western society. Okay, out for 6 miles of walk/run hiit style. Fatty gotta make some progress…

  48. @Def – A little excerpt here to demonstrate the brilliance on display at that site.
    :Romantic love was due primarily to the greater equality and independence of woman. She reacquired to some extent her long-lost power of selection, and began to apply to men certain tests of fitness. Romantic love therefore marks the first step toward the resumption by woman of her natural scepter which she yielded to the superior physical force of man at the beginning of the androcratic period. It involves a certain degree of female selection or gyneclexis, and no longer permitted man to seize but compelled him to sue. But it went much farther than this. It did not complete a cycle and restore female selection as it exists in the animal world. It also did away with the pure male selection that prevailed throughout the androcratic régime. The great physiological superiority of the new régime cannot be too strongly emphasized. Its value to the race is incalculable. Female selection, or gyneclexis, as we saw, created a fantastic and extravagant male efflorescence. Male selection, or andreclexis, produced a female etiolation, diminutive stature, beauty without utility. Both these unnatural effects were due to lack of mutuality. Romantic love is mutual. The selection is done simultaneously by man and woman. It may be called ampheclexis. Its most striking characteristic consists in the phenomenon called “falling in love.“ It is not commonly supposed that this so-called “tender passion“ is capable of cold scientific analysis. It is treated as something trivial, and any allusion to it creates a smile. Yet libraries are filled with books devoted exclusively to it, and these are as eagerly devoured by philosophers and sages as by schoolgirls.”

    The guy who founded the site, is Peter someone or the other, an early MGTOW – kind of invented MGTOW – long since gone from the scene due to its eminent vapidity. Kind of a warning as to what can happen here if we don’t keep the MGTOW douches at bay…

  49. First, Rollo should be treasured for his insight and what he provides in his blog. The comment about “fan boys” and such is so off base. Of course I’m a fan, who else writes with this much depth and without the bias, but stil has the science / research behind his articles? Nobody. It amazes me how soon we want to take down a person who at least for me, saved my life because what he wrote resonated in such a level I began to see things as the were, not what the FI conditioned and taught me. That said have your opinion but come to the table with some examples, research, experiences before you dismiss somebody. Rollo is as non biased and open to all comments, MGTOW are not men to me. They are weak, tap out because quitting gives them a power back, and can cry alone (as they say a real man should). Also, they ignore their desires and strength in being a man, and want to renounce what evolution and nature made us to survive. And anything you say, contrary to their beliefs which are so heavily routed in ego investment, they react emotionally, and tap out.

  50. @Scribbler: Peter Wright, not his real name, and so far as anyone else can tell, including people who have actually worked with him, a newcomer to the AVfM scene and had nothing at all to do with founding MGTOW and, far from distancing himself from MGTOW wants to be seen as one, although virtually every MGTOW rejects him as such (the exception being married men who also want to be seen as MGTOW, as Wright offers some support to the idea that married men can be MGTOW).

    None of which has any impact on the information on the site, which is generally quite good.

  51. @scrib: appreciate the feedback and support my brother
    kudos on ‘pimpin’ that older broad. the fadin prom queen. hey bro, nothin wron with autumn. bulbs burn brightest at end of life.

    Me and my pal are going to need to sit down and do some review. we both are non-mainstream, highly analytical thinkers. between here, yareally, krauser and some pimpin vids on youtube we are probably going to go straight to field work soon.
    It is hard to understand how difficult to be a fish out of water. If I had learned the right second language as a lad I’d be surrounded by brothers. As it stands Canada is beta land. The first thing a guy in an ltr does here is spend less time with his pals. Its pathetic.
    The only person who is gonna empathize with our angst is another brother. Pussy is pussy. I do enjoy women but I dont see them as friends. They are baubles, even if a wife, and a means to sons and daughters. Preferably sons.

    Peace scrib. Get some bro.

  52. @Craiger

    “The comment about “fan boys” and such is so off base.”

    I think not.

    No matter how agreeable in the beginning, a student is he is bound to disagree with a teacher at some point. It is inevitable. It is OK.

    I would not just walk away though like our friend did (or wants to).

    I accidentally ran into the TRM sometime last year. The first article I read was the one about there being NO ONE. I finished reading it, I found myself voraciously munching through all year one and year two, then the whole blog, comments and all. I don’t think it would be very correct to say that it saved my life. But I could say that my heart has found peace. I did not understand what it was I experience with women all my life. Suddenly I realized that there was a name/terminology for almost all the stuff I had experienced with the many women I have been with over the years. It really helped me to know that I was a normal person, observing and experiencing normal women, and that I was not really lost, and also that there were men like me who have been there, only now I could start to talk sensibly about it. I found my place on the map. Now I know where I am with respect to what is there, thanks to TRM. Thanks Rollo.

    Balancing TRP means calling yourself to service. It means being a man (as opposed to being some pussy hunting dog). Much as it means being a servant to yourself, but also to it means requiring of yourself to be a servant to society, because otherwise you become 100% dark triad. It demands holding yourself to at least some modicum of honor and requiring of yourself to be dependable member of the society at large.

    Unfortunately, what burden of performance I want is the burden of performance that gets to serving me, and me only. It is OK for some of us to believe that we like to be upstanding citizens, and that we have a contribution to make to human civilization or whatever. The only reason I am doing any of that is because I live in a society that has me by the balls. There are rules, there are social conventions, and there is the law. Otherwise, I would just rather be me serving me, living for me. But life doesn’t allow it. I think we deceive ourselves and others trying to pretend that we choose it for ourselves. I think that is debatable. We are stuck with the short end of the stick because life just happened to us; we were born male and we have been forced in to the human society by the fate. We really do not have much of a choice. It is just more like trying to make the most out of it.

    How much of both sides of it we should willing accept is variable from one person to the next. Some of us are more upstanding members of society. That’s OK. Of course others are a bit more thuggish. Heheheee…

    Well, we are all brothers after all is said and done.

  53. @Cheupez – You, who declares himself a narcissist and nihilist with your last comment, calling people thuggish is truly rich. Here’s some advice for you. Don’t try to be a thinker, be a consumer of good thought. Your mind isn’t up to it. There is so much wrong and facile with what you just laid out that it’s simply not worth trying to straighten it all out. But hey, keep whipping monkey dung…

    @KFG – Excerpt from a piece on AVFM about who Peter Wright is.
    “Editorial note: this week we will be featuring several articles on the topic of Men Going Their Own Way, a philosophical and social movement this publication has promoted since its earliest days. To kick off this series we include this gem from Peter Wright, who’s been a MGTOW practically before anyone had heard the term, and is one of three by him we will be featuring exploring the topic, along with pieces by other authors on the same topic. Take it away, Peter!”

    He was a very early Red Piller and voice in the MGTOW movement. Well before Barbarossa and Stardusk, well before many others who preceded them. Rollo has mentioned him in the past.

  54. Above 3rd line I meant:
    No matter how agreeable in the beginning a student is, he is bound to disagree with a teacher at some point. It is inevitable.

  55. Scribbler: The AvFM website is a marketing brochure. It was written chiefly by Paul Elam who is as full of shit as a Port-A-Potty at a chilli festival.

    I, on the other hand, am one of the people who knows his real name and I have no reason to bamboozle you into being one of my followers.

    I was also MGTOW before Peter Wright was born and I’d never heard of him before he started writing for AvFM.

    And I do not claim to be any part of founding MGTOW. Even Diogenes had a teacher.

  56. This is a bit because Cheupez admits to wanting to be self-serving (which to some extent is also what MGTOW want, right?)

    Just like Red Pill suggests men should not be ashamed of desiring sex, I think humans should not be ashamed of being selfish.

    I’m selfish. It is part of (individual) human nature and partly responsible for our (collective) success as a species.

    I’m also pretty certain Altruism is also positively selected for on a collective survival sense. Altruism of a man for a woman being an important Red Pill example.

    One must be careful with Altruism, perhaps even more careful than one has to be about being too selfish.

  57. Also I watched Blue Valentine today. It does indeed serve as a very good example.

    Made me think a bit about Revolutionary Road, which was much more hard hitting for me, and from memory I think also is a good demonstration of Red Pill wisdom (American Beauty was also good in that respect). But I watched both of these a while ago and before I had my own Red Pill lens.

  58. @KFG – Peter Wright was around for a long time before AVFM – since you know him, why don’t you ask?

  59. @IAS – Ya wanna do this? Okay, let’s do so. One does not need to be altruistic to recognize that we live in a social setting and that we have collective concerns. Whether it’s friends, family, workplace, community, ethnicity, nationalism, religious affinity, we all are products of and rely on social structures of many sorts for our very existence. To consciously abandon your role and responsibility in those social structures is to negate human civilization and existence.

    Such vapid nihilism as Cheupez blathers is as common as peas in MGTOW, hence another reason I find their “movement” a fucking joke. Worse yet, it’s merely a superficial pose as they still exist in and benefit from many social structures in our society. I suggest anyone who doesn’t understand the power and importance of social groups to human development read E. O. Wilson’s The Social Conquest of Earth. In fact, it should be required reading for all MGTOW who want to “drop out”.

    You see, it’s not just men and women who are complementary – all humans can be with each other. Self-interested cooperation is the engine of all human progress, and hint-hint for you anti-capitalist/anti-corporate types, it’s also why free markets are an amazing engine of societal development.

  60. @Scribbler: Peter Wright, the Chief Marketing Officer of AVfM, does not exist. Peter Wright is a character. His history is backstory, not fact.The man who writes under the name Peter Wright plays that character. That’s why he uses the name “Peter,” the name of the fictional character who he believes serves as the example of the ultimate MGTOW.

    Why would a man who had left MGTOW in disgust long ago choose such a name for such reasons, go around telling everyone how MGTOW he is and so recently write a book with Paul Elam which they claim to be the definitive guide to MGTOW?

    The answer is that he wouldn’t. But he would if he were trying to get into MGTOW. One of his essays at AVfM, which has become part of the book, is in fact a denial that he could be a founder of MGTOW, as it goes into the history of MGTOW to show that nobody alive was a founder, as even the term has been around at least 100 years.

    What sort of person could claim to be a founder of MGTOW out of one side of his mouth, while denying Barbarossa could be a founder of MGTOW out of the other side, because MGTOW was founded more than a century ago?

    A marketing officer playing a character.

  61. @IAS

    Interesting and reasonable take on my commbut . The woman in question is not actually married, but, curiosly, had told me that that was her stated desire with regard to her LOTR!

    But he failed to reciprocate, hence her interest in me in what I perceived as her Plan B ‘monkey branch’ alternative (she is much younger than I am and has reached the ‘cash-out’ phase of her sexual development).

    Yes, I was prepared to enable her to stray — but she got cold feet and backed-out.

    At the same time, while I had been generally OK with the idea of a casual no-ties / no expectations liaison (from my perspective), I came to a realisation that I was starting to develop feelings for her.

    So, I have made it clear to her that I wouldn’t settle for anything less than an all-or-nothing commitment from her: either she dumped her LOTR and took a chance with me, or else she remained with him and backed-off entertaining any notion of me being a potential sexual / romantic interest.

    Her response: that she loved both him AND me! (Surely only a woman is capable of this kind of *rationalisation*!) It’s actually a fairly manipulative hedge-betting manoeuvre to retain her maximum optimisation for hypergamy: if her LOTR BB fails to make good on her provisioning needs, then I can be the AF fall-back.

    Were it not for the fact that I had started to develop a genuine romantic interest in her (as opposed to a purely sexual one), I might have given the plate a spin.

    My response was to tell her stick with her LOTR and see how that worked for her.

    Missed opportunity or lucky escape?

    An added wrinkle for me is that she and I are both in the same Martial Arts club. I am one of the club seniors, and this fact established my social proof with her. I want to continue training there, but that might not be a given any longer.

    As to your reference about the discussion of the whys and wherefores of banging married women, a former family friend of mine does just that. His modus operandi is to ppresent himself as a sympathetic *shoulder to cry on* — the Beta Orbiter par excellence — and then strike at his married targets when they are at their most vulnerable.

    Of course, he did this with my ex-wife, to whom I was married at the time: partly the reason why she is now my ex-wife and he is no longer my *friend*.

  62. @KFG – Perhaps you know more than me, but I knew of and heard of Peter Wright a year or more before “he” showed up at AVFM. But I also haven’t spent a lot of energy on it and certainly don’t want to spend anymore. I remember Rollo mentioning him once, it would be interesting to here what he has to offer, if anything.

    Regardless, the site has been around forever and it’s got great info on the development of courtly love, romance and chivalry.

  63. Thanks for your input above, Glenn. By coincidence I actually started watching Julien’s PIMP right after I wrote that, ha.

    For context, it was late at night, I was mired in work after a tough week, and I was fighting a fever (seem to have mostly shaken it today). It really brought all the negative to the fore. That’s still me, sometimes.

    I’m fighting like hell to rid myself of the one-itis. Thing is, I think I’m mostly past it – but she’s not past needing it from me. So she knows how to scare out an emotional reaction from me when I’m down. And I have juuust enough neediness left that her acting like a total bitch to me when I’m in a down mood, then seeing her be as sweet as sugar to some random person the next minute, can still get under my skin.

    Oneitis is basically the outward manifestation of internal neediness. I’m not very needy any more – just a bit of that remains. She’s still very needy, in spite of all my help back when she hasn’t improved herself at all. So she knows just how to dig deep and find the grain of neediness I still have – it’s a matter of life or death to her ego that she still matter to me I guess. On the bright side, this all has been a crazy good lesson in some pretty deep emotional dynamics for me – it’s shown me how deep and how twisted a struggle for power and for validation can go.

    I’m far enough along that given a long weekend I don’t think about her at all. Hell, given a reasonably positive mood and I don’t even pay attention to her when she’s there – I don’t have time for her bullshit.

    I don’t mean that by way of defense so much as clarification. I’ve got shit to work on. I have feet of clay, no question. But the obsession I once had is basically gone, and even her ability to bother me with (frankly outrageous) behavior works only seldom. I’m glad of that. Was too late for my health but I work in a great place to get that on track again eventually, I’m surrounded by experts in attaining optimal human functioning.

    I agree the field reveals all. I’ll be back in it soon. Just am kinda trammeled right now by circumstances – I hate it, can’t wait to get back to it. Should be about a month. I’m looking forward to it.

    On that note, it sounds like your gig turned out being well worthwhile! I’m very pleased to hear about how that turned out. I can’t give a personal opinion about this lady of course, but I trust any woman around you will not lack for proper vetting, and it at least sounds like you have a good baseline vibe with her. A lot of men bemoan how they can’t talk to women like they can to men here, and frankly I don’t empathize. I like to talk to them like women – even talking with my sisters gives me something I don’t get with my male friends. It’s not intellectual conversation to be sure. But somehow it just ‘works’ in a different way. Brings different things out of you.

    So I don’t really get the MGTOW thing. Blaximus goes on about how he just loves women. For what they are, for how he can interact with them. That’s more like it. So they can be dangerous for a man. So?

    Has no-one here ever loved riding a motorcycle? Things like that are only dangerous because they have the ability to make you feel. To, in some cases, do more than is wise. Be sure to wear a helmet.

  64. @Scribbler: ” . . . the site has been around forever . . .”

    The about page is dated July 14, 2013. No article is dated earlier than that. When he put up the site he and Elam got into a tiff about Elam not giving him a banner ad on the AVfM site.

    ” . . . and it’s got great info on the development of courtly love, romance and chivalry.”

    Please note that I not only said nothing derogatory about the site, but actually endorsed it.

  65. @Forge: “Has no-one here ever loved riding a motorcycle?”

    Goddam I miss my RD400, but I think that it would be less than wise for me to acquire a Mike Hailwood TT Replica Ducati, assuming I could find one for sale.

    “Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.”

  66. @Forge – I get it, trust me. My ex used to rope me back in with ease, and there have been other women who have that effect. I do really appreciate the honesty and introspection you bring to this.

    @KFG – Never looked at the dates, fair enough. All I know is that back when I had a MGTOW channel, I cited stuff on the site – a full year or more before he was ever mentioned at AVFM – back when I kept up on them. If it is some kind of ruse, it’s just more evidence of how weird those folks are…

  67. @Scribbler: “If it is some kind of ruse, it’s just more evidence of how weird those folks are…”

    There ya go.

  68. Forge,

    Had 2 bikes in my 20’s. One was an old Triumph that someone made into a chopper. The other was a Honda 750. I went down on the Honda on a curvy, gravel strewn country road at 70-80 mph and lived to tell about it.

    Haven’t been on a bike since, lmao.

    I hear you about ” speed ” though. In a few hours I’ll be commuting home and there will be triple digits on the speedo. It’s like that everyday. My Will is updated and in order. : )

    Speaking of women….

    I used to put gals in my cars and scare the living shit out of them. In the south we used to pride ourselves on driving at night ( full moon ) with no headlights at high speed. He he he… God bless country roads!!!

  69. A Honda 750 was the last bike I rode as well, but I dropped it going 0 mph in a parking lot. For a while I didn’t think I was going to be able to get out from under it. I was lying their imagining the headline, “Man dies because he’s too much of a wimp to get out from under his own bike.”

    Swore I’d never ride a bike I couldn’t lift again and you can’t register an Aprilia 125 in my state.

    Almost bought a 50cc Maserati a few years ago, but when I went back to see if I could make a deal it was already gone. Probably just as well.

  70. Thanks for the link, Scrib. I’ll peruse the website tomorrow morning and take note of posts that pique my interest.

    Trying to amp up the herb and veggie garden this year, so that’s on the docket tomorrow, too.

    Snow turned out not to be that bad….no need for the snowblower after all. Drat. 🙁

    Good luck with that oneitis. Been there, done that, same as everyone else here. Sounds like you have a special narcissistic kind of oneitis too. Bad News Bears.

    At least you know that means you need some inner work still.

    Best of luck getting back into the field!

  71. ScribblerG:

    As far as women being clay, I’d be careful. There’s a difference between a woman who is being led and one who is simply dancing backwards. Personally, I can’t tell which are which.

  72. @Forge

    “Has no-one here ever loved riding a motorcycle?”

    Still have my Triumph Sprint ST 1050 (they’ll have to pry that thing from my flaming, well-charred corpse), and I’ve already picked out my next toy that I’ll put in the garage next to it. Leave it to the Italians to make such a dangerously fast, gorgeous hooligan machine. Triumph needs a refresh of their Speed Triple’s engine or they’re gonna get left behind.

  73. Scribblerg
    “One does not need to be altruistic to recognize that we live in a social setting and that we have collective concerns. Whether it’s friends, family, workplace, community, ethnicity, nationalism, religious affinity, we all are products of and rely on social structures of many sorts for our very existence. To consciously abandon your role and responsibility in those social structures is to negate human civilization and existence.”

    .” I suggest anyone who doesn’t understand the power and importance of social groups to human development read E. O. Wilson’s The Social Conquest of Earth. In fact, it should be required reading for all MGTOW who want to “drop out”.

    “all humans can be with each other. Self-interested cooperation is the engine of all human progress, and hint-hint for you anti-capitalist/anti-corporate types, it’s also why free markets are an amazing engine of societal development.”

    Don’t you see how many times you used “social”! , I mean for an anti socialist like you?. I’m confused.

  74. I dont think MGTOW means no women.

    But anger against “narcistic” pussy hunters has a lot to do with ego investment. When one realises too late that life has already had him and it is hard for him to admit it, all he can do is to rationalize his experience is to call it altruism or some other sweet sounding word that can apeace his sense of loss. But it is not an excuse for lashing out at those who wise up and start cutting corners earlier.

    Any young man who has made sense of the TRM and is intent on internalizing TRP is going to grow less altruistic and more “narcistic”.

    Unless he is a masochist.

    The point of balance is variable from one man to the next. Being tolerant of those on opposing side of that balance is the challenge.

  75. Hah, this is awesome.

    kfg- RD400? Damn, I love that old styling. I have a thing for cafe racers that I’ve never been able to act on.

    Had a tiny XR50 dirtbike for a while, was never more daring than on that devil lol. If it pins you its just like wrestling your 5yo nephew. Except with a fiery hot exhaust.

    Sun- I hadn’t seen that Brutale! Badass. Like a Ducati Monster with more teeth. A good thing to die on 😉

    For the record, the last bike I rode was a Ducati Desmoquattro 748, and I rode it like a total pussy.

    Maybe I should step it up. By my age my father had founded a racing bike gang called the Black Widows, and spent most days devising ways to sneak out of school to ride.

    That said, literally half of that gang is now dead as a direct result of membership, and it only existed for like 5 years, so yeah.

    But, see. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I was going for. Motorcycles are fucking dangerous, but see how you talk about them? There’s a passion and a joy there.

    Now most of you that are talking here DO talk about women kinda like that too (looking at you Blax 😉 ) but it demonstrates the principle and mindset well.

    But don’t mind me. I’m gonna just become a MBASP (Man Being a Safe Pedestrian).

  76. @adbg

    Thanks for the props! The ol’ oneitis is a bugger. Mine def has core ego issues – not to the point of personality disorder, but enough that absolutely wrecking me instead of just letting me go makes sense to her.

    The silver lining is that I’m developing crazy inner game as a matter of mere survival lol. Sharing a workplace with her is brutal but my job is awesome enough that I’m willing to conquer the circumstance to keep it.

  77. @talprofs: I think men are capable of “loving” more than one woman, and I think women can do that as well (recall also that according to Red Pill, women love differently from men). That may still have been a rationalization (or even outright lie) from the woman in question.

    @kfg: laughed at your description of imagining the deadline when you were trapped under the bike.

    @Forge: oneitis at your work seems quite unfortunate.

  78. @kfg

    Swore I’d never ride a bike I couldn’t lift again and you can’t register an Aprilia 125 in my state.

    This is technically considered a scooter and most states will register it that way, but it’s basically a cool looking 125cc motorcycle with a shifter and all. Maybe that would work? There’s 160cc bore kits with exhaust that’ll put it around 16-17hp. Really light and comfy when I tried one, just don’t expect highway speeds.

  79. As requested, I tried to keep this shorter, but its difficult to flesh out a subject without going into detail.

    Uncomfortable thoughts on having a big dick.

    If a guy wants a big dick it’s no different from wanting a muscular body: all he has to do is buy the penis enhancement (PE) devices and put in the time using them, because they really work. Most women claim 7.5 to 8 inches is the ideal length (girth needs to be proportionate) and that’s very doable in 2 years time for the average guy who starts off with a 5.5 to 6 inch fully erect penis (average size, BTW). Greater length hits the spots a smaller guy can’t reach and the more girth the more sensation/stimulation. That combination translates to women saying things like “that was the best sex I’ve ever had” and “I want to spend the rest of my life with you.”

    For a guy that’s 3 to 4 inches fully erect, PE will be a life-changing experience that can literally have an effect on almost every aspect of their life. One guy I knew in the Marines had a really small dick (communal showers, everybody knows). He didn’t date, was introverted and didn’t even go to skivvy houses overseas (and who cares what those girls think?). Years later we had a reunion and he was a completely different guy. Confident, extroverted, hitting on women and having a good time, the change was amazing. And, over the course of the evening he whipped out his dick a few times (now larger than average) and felt compelled to explain what he’d done. PE literally changed his life, but it was his experience with the way women used to treat him that really had him totally ZFG when it came to women.

    Everybody in the manosphere gives similar advice on self-improvement and talks about improving income, hitting the gym and learning game; but very few talk about PE. I’d guess it’s because of the shaming/ridicule that normally follows any attempt at such discussions, which makes guys (especially newbies) really uncomfortable. While having a big dick gives guys more confidence and really improves the woman’s experience when things get sexual, I see a problem coming.

    Unfortunately, PE is becoming necessary because the goalposts are being moved in this area. Yes, I think it’s becoming necessary and in the next few decades it will probably become as much a requirement as lifting weights and learning game, but let me explain why. The simple answer is because it works, but the more complex answer has to do with male competition, how social trends work and female desires.

    If you look at photos of male models and Hollywood leading men from the 1970’s – 1980’s and compare them to models and leading men of today, they don’t vary that much in looks but there is an incredible difference in musculature. That trend in Hollywood started off small with 1980’s action heroes (Arnold, Stallone, Van Damme, et al) and grew rapidly in the following 25 years until today it’s the rare model or leading man who isn’t at least buff, if not jacked.

    You can see the same thing with the adoption of game. Today, when dealing with early 20’s hotties it isn’t enough to have game, your game has to be tight because they’ve got experience with guys running game on them that started back in Middle School after they sprouted tits and they’re aware of what game is and how it works. Contrast that with women in their mid-30’s and older who don’t have a clue what game is because none of the men in their age group or a little older (their target market) knew what game was back in the day and still don’t now. While their bitch-shields are fully developed and their ASD can be formidable, once isolation and escalation occurs it’s like shooting fish in a barrel for anyone with good game. That’s the difference 15 years makes looking back. I’m looking at what it’s going to be like going forward with PE and it doesn’t look pretty.

    PE seems to be following the same adoption curve as bodybuilding and game for the same reasons: given a choice and all other things being equal, women would rather have a guy with a big dick than an average size dick and they’ll reject a guy with a small dick and then talk about him with all their friends. This is also a large part of the problem with an Alpha Widow. The only way to deal with an Alpha Widow is to be more alpha than any guy she’s ever been with. Part of that is solid frame and tight game, the other part is having a big dick.

    Because devices like the Bathmate (most effective for girth but also increases length) and the Phallosan Forte (very effective for length but no gains in girth) produce impressive results, more and more men are buying them and using them. In places like LA and Vegas where the competition is fierce, a guy needs to be tall, jacked, good looking (looks AND style) and have tight game… or he isn’t even in the running. It should come as no surprise that guys in a very competitive environment who are looking for an edge turn to PE and as the word continues to spread, sooner or later the tipping point will occur.

    But, all this talk about having a big dick begs the question of what women really want. Let’s take a look at this chart (if we can believe it when women tell us what they like) and then look at the real world.

    That’s what the women want. What the white guys have (dick sizes vary by race) the average length is 5.71 inches with a Standard Deviation (SD) of .94 inches and the average girth is 4.82 inches with a SD of .51 inches. The distribution of dick sizes follows a normal bell curve. That means

    68.27% of guys are L=6.65” or shorter and G=5.33” or less
    95.45% of guys are L=7.59” or shorter and G=5.84” or less
    99.73% of guys are L=8.53” or shorter and G=6.35” or less.

    What does all that tell us? That women only consider about the top 5% of dicks to be ideal. In terms of PE, it also tells us that for an average guy, gains in girth are better in the short term than gains in length, because according to the chart the “average guy (bigger than 50% of all others) is literally on the edge between “not satisfying” and “enjoyable.” The guys on the outside of the 1st SD are exactly on the edge between “enjoyable” and “satisfying” and the guys on the outer edge of the 2nd SD are still only solidly in the “very satisfying but not ideal” category, even though they are larger than 95.45% of the white men. Think about that. The good news is chicks don’t bring rulers to bed with them and they will be convinced that your 6.25″ dick is closer to 7″ and after convincing themselves you’ve got a really big dick, they’ll enjoy it more. The other good news is a small increase in girth makes a major difference so it doesn’t take long to get results.

    If it weren’t for the fact that dildos don’t come in “average” sizes, one would really wonder just how women knew the “ideal” size dick, given that so few men possess one that size. However, let’s just assume the ladies know what they like and they got the measurements right, so your goal is to have a dick that’s at least 7.25 inches long and 6.26 inches in girth because you want to be “ideal’ (perfect). The only question is where you’re starting from. If you’re average sized, you have to increase about 1.5 inches in length and 1.5 inches in girth. All you need is a Bathmate. If you’re shorter than the “average guy” then both the Bathmate and the Phallosan are indicated.

    You should also be working out in the gym, losing fat and gaining muscle. If you go from +20% bodyfat down to 10% bodyfat, your dick will be anywhere from a half-inch to an inch longer because the bottom part will no longer be hidden by fat.

    I suspect that any trend in PE will be a stealth trend until one day the women will be talking and they’ll suddenly realize that everyone has a big dick. The question is, will that skew the desires? If suddenly it’s no longer only about 5% of guys with a 7.5 inch dick but 50% of the guys have a dick that big, will the women decide they want something even bigger? I doubt it. If you’re big enough to hit a woman’s cervix and you’re pounding away, it hurts, as in the seriously painful kind of hurting and it’s frustrating for the guy to not be able to go balls-deep once you hit your stride.

    So, yeah, 1.5 inches in both length and girth is doable within 2 years and some more time after that to ensure the gains are permanent, no problem. Less time than you’d need to pack on serious muscle without resorting to steroids.

    As to the trends thing, think about it. If, after you checked out what I’ve said and found it to be true, would you do it? The real question is if you were doing PE, would you tell anybody? I’m guessing a lot of guys would answer “yes” and “no” because it’s something people just don’t talk about it unless they’re truly ZFG. That’s why I see this as a stealth trend that’s in its infancy now.

  80. Great chart explain does size matters issue.

    Middle school guys with game… with the internet and curiosity, it has to be so. As a dad this is one reason I have always told my girls that I want to vet their boyfriends. Being more redpill aware I vetting for an adequate alpha/beta mix will also be part of the screening process.

  81. ^^ Source for.this penis size study. n=?, age group, location, etc.
    In your post you state that women will convince.themselves that 6.25″=7″. How do we know that didnt happen in the ‘study’ you cited (again, source?).
    In other words.I dont.really believe that this is
    First hand, a women I knew had a boyfriend with an 8″ c$ck. She said it.hurt:; too big. They broke up. I did bang her after. She was on the loose side. Not.tight at all. Still gave her a vaginal multi-orgasm. I was impressed by that. She told me aftwards it was a first for.her. It was a first for me. Yes my sample size at the time was 1.
    Another women I bedded had an orgasm from nipple/breast play. I was very impressed. She was too. Tried to do the ‘I’m pregnant, let’s move in’ routine later.
    I’m convinced that human sexuality multi-variable that it is a very difficult subject to quantify. Perhaps firm conclusion are difficult at this point. I do believe that a women in love (their version) experiences sex very differently from a ONS or STR/FB situation.
    Disclosure: I have no insecurities on my physiology nor my ability to use it.
    I’d be interested to hear others thoughts.
    I will concede that men who are below average face a.challenge with women. I wouldnt know. I suspect, however, that this issue is/will be used to shame men.
    Side.note: how many guys are experiencing a complete 180* viz a viz attraction based on a womens looks versus a repulsive/damaged personality? IOW, as men perhaps we need to go on the offensive: penis size? Really? What about womens ego size? On a scale from 0-100, I find any hb6+ to be unbangable with an ego size above 55. How about you?
    IOW we-men-need to change the conv. ‘Hey babe, you are a HB 6, which is bare minmum for me, but your bitch shield is a 8/10 and I suspect an ego load of 100 psi/sq ft. Given my cock is 6.5″ x 7.5″ girth, I just dont see any use for you on my c$ck unless you take a.vow of.silence for.2 hours, completely submit to my whims and random desires, call 2 friends and sign a waiver (to allow me to film this) and a binding declarion you are vd free. See, I’m a strong, independent man. I’m special and.unique. You are.common and barely attractive enough to get me hard. Actually-grabbing.her hand and firmly leading her- we’re going to the womens toilet. You will blow me so i can evaluate your technique. If you pass that test, you will call friends with looks as good as yours, preferrably better, and they had better bring beer, great weed favours.”
    After the b.j., take.her home, get her sopping wet, insert once, whince in pain, claim a disk is acting up and you’ll call her. Exit stage left (with beer, weed and, hopefully, some pablo marching powder). Call buddies, hang out, party, tell ’em a new war story.

    IOW, chivalry is dead, the female of the species is clearly idiotic and doesnt become a responsible adult. They need to shut up, do what they are told and cease their incessant complaining.

    I am not bitter. Simply put: incredulous. Far as I’m concerned the only modern female political leader worth a shit was bhutto. Thatcher: idiot and a front. Shrillary: a pathetic, vacuous power monger-bought and paid for; incapable of an idea; destroyed libya-now a failed state; Merkel-captive of neo-liberal war-mongers, determined to destroy german homogeneity via ‘syrian migrant’ crisis; total fail.
    I deride. You decide.

  82. @Toad – Makes perfect sense. I’m the average guy you describe (slightly girthier) and such straight talk is essential for men these days. Girls will talk about how size matters and overtly express their preference for a guy with a big dick. My preference for petite women has a lot to do with this, as I can just about “hit it” with a petite woman. I broke up with an HB9 at one point because she had a cavernous pussy that I just couldn’t fill up and I felt so inadequate.

    But here’s the thing. I researched this at one point and it seemed to me the gains available were only temporary. It also seemed to require tremendous effort. I did some googling but I’m curious, do you have any source of data on real studies that validate this? Have you done this yourself?

    Fyi, I’m taking the lead here in busting this taboo for men – fuck that. Men being ashamed to discuss this is a symptom of how horribly men are shamed in pursuing our sexual agency and power. It would be great if other guys would weigh in with thoughts and experiences. Remember, the loudmouths here like me are doing a service for that incel lurker here who never comments, who has a 3.5 inch dick and is thinking about killing himself right now. If he can get over his shame a bit by guys like me being open about this shit, hooray!

    Another question. I’ve always suspected that on average, guys with high Ns (whatever mix of alpha/beta they are) have bigger dicks. I’ve also suspected that real naturals (I’m not a real natural, I did have natural dominance and a good ability to talk to women due to my sales training and experience – do 1000 face to face cold calls and your “approaching” of women will improve) have larger dicks on average. Do you think this is so?

    Last. You make comments about appearance/muscularity etc that would seem to fly in the face of what guys like YaReally say in a way. I do think looks matter wrt initial attraction, but then game takes over. I see it as more subtle and that a man who games well can use his level of attraction as a lever to drive attraction of course, but also arousal too but then again I’m still an amateur. Fyi, as an aside, I’m running “old man game” at 53 and still working through my internal game issues, so I loved the story you told about your grandfather. Any comments you want to make about how you see game and appearance etc would be welcome.


  83. I have absolutely no data and relatively little experience, but my concern would be too big as opposed to too small. I have a smaller-than-average package, but my Wife has complained multiple times of hitting cervix in certain positions.
    To the point of “jump away and wincing on the other side of the bed.”

    When I was younger I remember having a younger gf measuring and seeing a higher than average number (obviously I saw the number too), but for whatever reason something in the college years took away length. TBH, probably too vigorous dates with Rosie, which can wreck the blood vessels and reduce the member’s ability to hold blood and engorge.

    Something I read a while ago but I never asked the doctor about it.

    Probably something for the incel’s to keep in mind, I guess: don’t wank too hard.

  84. I have not commented a longer time now, because i was busy to read the books of you Rollo and think about it and understand all the aspects, which you are describing so wonderful.

    First i want to wish you a happy new year, Rollo. Furthermore i would like to thank you that you are sharing this profound knowledge with us…for free !!! Thank you, Buddy.

    Idealism is really important for a man, because i believe that idealism is the key for our aspirations, for our drive to build and to establish.
    That is the reason why we are the premiere sex and woman the second sex. We have idealism, women have opportunism.

    But Idealism is also dangerous, because it is easy to trick us with our idealism. I believe that Idealism is the “Backdoor” how women can trick men. This backdoor was one of the reason why the FI could have been as strong as it is today.

    IMO to hold Frame means, to close that “Idealism Backdoor” for any attackers like women nowadays.
    Game On the contrary are the weapons for the male…to fight the attackers.

    Another topic that i have thought about recently was, how the FI have tricked Men to believe that it’s important for life quality to have a woman.
    The only thing a man really needs a woman for is Sex. And that’s it.

    What a man really needs are his male friends. Preferably men like on this forum. Men who you can share your new thoughts with. It’s so refreshing to meet an old friend have fun and sharing new ideas with. These conversations are not possible with any female!

    Another topic.

    How come that on a Red Pill based Forum, people talk so much about what women wants??
    I fully understand when people in here writing WHY women want what they want. In fact, thats why we are here.

    But to talk about what women want and to behave accordingly is definitively not masculine.

    Sorry, but it’s stupid to buy shit to make your cock bigger and so on.
    People who do this, have not really understood the basics of Red Pill & Game.

    Especially to the younger men who read here; Stop thinking about other poeple and especially women. Do your thing. To use Rollo’s words: ” be your mental point of orgin”. it’s all about you..and only you!!!

    It’s important to point out that the modern woman is not a “normal” woman any longer.
    The modern woman has killed all the feminine behavior-oriented traits, thus it’s pointless to think about what women want! Treat women for what they are nowadays not for what you wish them to be!

    In this western oriented life a man has to be selfish. He has to be smart, needs game and all the other tools just for one reason. To have more options. IMO that’s the essence of a masculine man.

    Do your fucking thing, regardless what people say and think. And stop these horrible penis enhancement shit thoughts….LOL

    Last thoughts.
    Lot of people in here are thinking bad about MGTOW’s. I don’t share these antipathies.

    1) After studying the MGTOW people i came to the conclusion, that there is no one MGTOW movement. So many different thoughts and ways.

    I like to have sex with nice women, but i don’t like women. That’s why iam a man who goes his own way, because i understand how women are. Especially that iam red pill aware now.

    2) The badest gamer and alphas that i know personally, have a mindset and behaviour traits that displays pure ” Iam going my own matter what”. These type of men are the real alphas!

    You see gentlemen, everyone of us has a different understanding of MGTOW

  85. @scribllerg
    I cosign your like of petite women, even at a visual level my dick about to enter a visually small pussy simply makes me feel better about myself. Then once it’s in there, good lord it feels incredible being in a small tight one rather than launching hotdogs down the damp hallway. For that reason I never understood the fascination with “big butts”. I hate that Kardashian kind of shit, would far rather have a well proportioned little hottie with a tight bum who is small enough to be thrown around the bed and toyed with.
    Careful though, @rollo may pipe up and tell us that having a “type” is just a buffer and it may be so. That having been said, most of the time if I am trolling my personal history of conquests in the past for a quick wank it almost always ends up in one of two places as far as memories go, either a fantastic BJ from a girl / woman, or a really tight pussy.

    For the record I end up in the “satisfying” category of that chart.

    One wonders about the origins of that chart, I have seen it and variations on it before and always wonder how you get thousands of women to come up with anything approaching an objective “measure” of something they like in the context of a wildly subjective experience.

    Also, what’s the corollary measurement? Vaginal volume at a given air pressure. “Oh, she’s 8.2 cubic inches at 20 psi”. Or is it dilated vaginal opening at a given pressure? Or is it how much pressure it takes to get to a given opening, with fixed humidity, menstrual cycle, phase of moon, standard visual subject to gaze upon, e.g. Channing Tatum, standard room temperature, standardized state of dishes being washed, kids put to bed etc. Oh boy, slipping into Beta sexual success metrics there for a minute.

    Hardly any wonder there is no such measurement when one considers all the external variables that could be the “butterfly flapping its wings in Mexico…..”

    Back to work now.

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