The Red Pill Balance

Before you move on to reading today’s post, please take 14 minutes and listen to Niko Choski’s latest here Man:the being made of stone, it’ll be relevant in the second half of this post.

Niko is MGTOW, and from what I know is fairly highly regarded in that sphere. I did an interview with him back in August and since then have become a semi-regular listener of his youtube channel. We’ve occasionally bounced ideas off one another since the interview and I hold Niko in the highest respect for his intellectual approach and insights.

So it’s with that in mind that I’m going to use his latest offering here as a contrast to what I’m going into today.

Reader Divided Line stopped me in my writing tracks on another post with this comment from the last post thread. Not the least of which because I’d just finished listening to Niko’s audio here, but also because it was an interesting juxtaposition to what I’d planned to go into today. I’m going to quote Divided Line here and riff a bit as I go (emphasis mine):

@reloadedbeats

A lot of what you’ve said here echos my own thinking to such a degree that it’s as if you read my mind. I agree 100%.

What you’re talking about here, I think, is the inherent value of goodness or justice. I think Plato took up this question in the Republic and nailed it better than most.

In the beginning of the dialogue the question is “what is justice?” But it quickly transforms into “what is the value of justice?” In other words, if goodness wins us no reward, then what value does it have? Is it valuable in its own right? Would it have value even if it cost us something, or indeed cost us everything?

Glaucon puts the question like this (paraphrasing): “What if the perfectly just man is seen by everyone as perfectly unjust, while the perfectly unjust man is seen as perfectly just?” He then puts it on Socrates to effectively prove that, even in this scenario, justice would be worth it.

We could gender this question and simply ask “what if the perfectly good man is seen as perfectly unattractive to women, while the perfectly evil man is seen as perfectly attractive?”

Is goodness worth it even if it isn’t profitable sexually or socially? It’s the same question.

Why be a ‘good’ man when what we consider good by both personal and social measures isn’t rewarded (or only grudgingly rewarded), while what we consider ‘bad’ is what is enthusiastically rewarded with women’s genuine desire and intimacy? In other words, Hypergamy doesn’t care about what men consider good or bad.

It seems like this is the predicament red pill awareness puts us in when we have to consider the value of our formerly beta self. What makes the beta the beta is his weakness, of course, but it is simultaneously his civility. We’re not defective people for wanting or even needing the possibility love, empathy, truth, friendship, kindness, and – above all else – trust in our lives. It just makes us human. If we project our deeply rooted desires for these things and treat others the way we want to be treated, wouldn’t society be better off for it? And isn’t this what the supplicating, loyal beta does when latches on to a woman he believes to the “the One?”

No Quarter Given

In my post (and book chapter) Of Love and War I quote a reader who summed up this want for relief from men’s inherent Burden of Performance:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to

When I consider Niko’s perspective alongside this I begin to see a stark paradox; mens’ want for a relief or a respite from that performance burden tends to be their undoing. I wont get too deep into this, but one reason I see the MGTOW sphere being so seductive is the hopeful promise of that same relief. Simply give up. Refuse to play along and reject the burden altogether. Japan’s herbivorous men crisis is a graphic example of the long term effects of this.

However, this is the same mistake men make in their Blue Pill, Beta conditioning. They believe that if they meet the right girl, if they align correctly with that special ONE, then they too can give up and not worry about their performance burden – or relax and only make the base effort necessary to keep his ONE happy.

The Beta buys the advertising that his Blue Pill conditioning has presented to him for a lifetime. Find the right girl who accepts you independent of your performance, and you can let down your guard, be vulnerable, forget any notion of Red Pill truths because your girl is a special specimen who places no conditions on her love, empathy, intimate acceptance or genuine desire for you.

And this is also very seductive and inuring for the Beta who’s been conditioned to believe there can realistically be a respite from his burden.

That’s how it seemed to work in my own life. Looking back on it, I was so grateful to my ex, who was easily the most attractive girl I’d ever been with, that I would have taken a bullet for her. I didn’t want anybody else. I didn’t even think about other girls – the first time that had ever happened to me in a relationship. I can remember thinking that even if she gained weight, lost her looks, and got old, I’d still want her. I would have “loved” her forever. I was good and ready to cash in my chips, exit the SMV, and retire. I would have arranged my whole life around making her happy and would have felt lucky to have had the privilege.

At the time, all of that felt noble and brave, but looking back on it, it just seems pathetic and pathological, the result of my neediness. But the thing is, what if she had reciprocated it? Wouldn’t it have been a relationship worth having? Had she reciprocated it – if any woman was capable of reciprocating that – it wouldn’t have been Disney movie bullshit, but the real thing. We’re supposed to think such a thing is possible and that’s what keeps us playing along. The Red Pill is really about recognizing its impossibility, I think. There is no possible equity. To be sure, a woman can be loyal and dedicated to you, in theory, but she’ll only give that loyalty to the guy who needs it least. It’s like a cruel, cosmic joke.

Such as it is, that girl lied to me, ran for the hills the moment I showed weakness and needed her the most, and cheated on me. Big surprise, right? With a red pill awareness now I can see how predictable that result was, but at the time I was blindsided by it. I never saw it coming. I couldn’t understand how she could do such a thing when I’d invested so much in her, when I was so willing to give her all the things I’d always wanted most. I assumed she wanted the same things – men and women are the same, right? That’s what the egalitarians tell us. I couldn’t understand how those things could be so valueless to her that she would just throw it all away like that. She didn’t value them at all.

On occasion I’ve suggested that men watch the movie Blue Valentine. You can check out the plot summary on the IMDB link there, but you really need to watch the movie (on Netflix) to appreciate what I’m going to relate here. The main character suffers from the same romantic idealism and want for a perfected, mutually shared concept of love between himself and the single mother he eventually marries.

It follows along the same familiar theme of Alpha while single / Beta after marriage that most men experience in what they believe is their lot. More often than not the Alpha they believed their wives or LTR girlfriends perceived they were was really just a guy who’d do for their needs of whatever phase of maturity she found herself in.

By itself this would be enough for me to endorse the movie, but the story teaches a much more valuable lesson. What Dean (Ryan Gosling) represents is a man who idealistically buys the Blue Pill promise that men and women share a mutual love concept, independent of what their sexual strategies and innate dispositions prompt them to. Because of this misbelief Dean gives up on the burden of his performance. He drops his ambitions and relaxes with his ONE girl, contenting himself in mediocrity, low ambitions and his idealistic belief in a woman sharing and sustaining his romanticized Blue Pill love ideal – performancelessness.

He relaxes, lets his guard down and becomes the vulnerable man he was taught since birth that women would not only desire, but require for their false, performanceless notions of mutual intimacy. The men of this sphere who don’t find themselves divorced from their progressively bored wives are often the ones who trade their ambitions and passions for a life of mediocrity and routine,…so long as the security blanket of what they believe is a sustainable, passable semblance of that love (but not desire) exists in their wives or girlfriends.

Their burden of performance is sedated so long as their women are reasonably comfortable or sedate themselves. That false sense of contentment is only temporary and leads to their own ruin or decay.

No Quarter Expected

I’ve since watched something similar happen to a friend not once but twice. It’s textbook, standard shit. AWALT.

Cultivating these unrequited beta aspects of somebody’s character, if we did it on a mass scale, creates a society worth living in. It’s a civilized society where these things are most possible and it’s a truly worthwhile relationship where both parties regard each other this way and can full expect it to be reciprocated. It requires faith and trust, but we all know better. Our survival depends on knowing better, post sexual revolution. Women were never worthy of such trust and they’re entirely incapable of it. They were never capable of it. We were just supposed to think they were and cultivate the better aspects of our natures in order to be worthy of them.

The ugly truth of it is that women were never worthy of us.

Women’s sexuality doesn’t reward justice or goodness – if it did, reciprocity would be the norm and none of us would be confused about relational equity. Women reward not goodness, but strength. And strength is amoral, meaning it can be either just or unjust, good or bad. The guy with strength can either be the villain or the hero – it makes no difference to women. They can’t tell the difference and in truth don’t care anyway.

There is a set of the Red Pill that subscribe to what I’d call a ‘scorched earth‘ policy. It’s very difficult to reconcile the opportunistic basis of women’s Hypergamous natures with men’s hopeful, idealistic want for a love that’s independent from their performance burden. So the idea is again one of giving up. They say fuck it, women only respond to the most base selfishly individualistic, socio or psychopathic of men, so the personality they adopt is one that hammers his idealism flat and exaggerates his ‘Dark Triad‘ traits beyond all believability.

It’s almost a vengeful embrace of the most painful truths Red Pill awareness presents to us, and again I see why the scorched earth PUA attitude would seem attractive. Women do in fact observably and predictably reward assholes and excessively dominant Alpha men with genuine desire and sexual enthusiasm.

Agreeableness and humility in men has been associated with a negative predictor of sex partners.

The problem inherent in applying reciprocal solutions to gender relations is the belief that those relations are in any way improved by an equilibrium between both sexes interests. Solution: turn hard toward the asshole energy. Men understand the rules of engagement with women and they know Game well enough to capitalize on it so why not capitalize on that mastery of it?

The dangers of this are twofold. First, it lacks real sustainability and eventually becomes a more sexualized version of MGTOW. Secondly, “accidents” happen. MGTOWs will warn us that any interaction with a woman bears a risk of sexual harassment or false rape claims, but for the scorched earth guy a planned unplanned pregnancy on the part of a woman attempting to lock down her Alpha is far more likely to be his long term downfall. Emotional and provisioning liabilities for a child tends to pour cold water on the scorched earth guy.

It wouldn’t be inaccurate to say that women are philosophically, spiritually, and morally stunted. They have a limited capacity for adherence to higher ideals and this is why they don’t know or care what actual justice or goodness is. Like Schopenhauer said, they “mistake knowledge for its appearance.”

It took me a long time to be able to accept this. That is women’s true inferiority – and women are profoundly inferior. And I take no pleasure in recognizing that, as if I’m somehow touting the superiority of team men. It’s awful, in fact. Dealing with it is the ultimate burden of performance for us as individual men, but also as a society. At some point we’re simply going to have to confront women’s moral inferiority. If we look at our institutions, the very same that are crumbling now all around us, we can see that previous generations of men already figured this out. We just forgot what they knew.

So what’s the answer? Is justice valuable for its own sake? All of us would probably on some level want to be able to say yes and argue the case, but I don’t know if I can do so convincingly.

I’m with you on this, part of me thinks “Fuck this. It can’t be like this.” But it is. I wish I had the answer.

Niko attempts to redress the assumption that men feel some necessity to be someone they really aren’t. In Vulnerability I go into how the Feminine Imperative is only too willing to exploit this self-doubt by labeling men as existential posers and their conventional masculinity is a ‘mask’ – a false charade – they put on to hide the real vulnerability that lies beneath.

Unfortunately many men accept this as gospel. It’s part of their Blue Pill upbringing and is an essential aspect of their feminine ‘sensitivity training’ and gender loathing conditioning. When masculinity is only ever a mask men wear the only thing real about them is what real women tell them it should be.

What we don’t consider is the legitimacy of our need for strength, independence, stoicism, and yes, emotional restraint. That need to be bulwark against women’s emotionality, that need to wear psychological armor against the Red Pill realities of women’s visceral natures is legitimate and necessary. If a man’s vulnerability is ever it’s because his display of it is so uncharacteristic of his normal impenetrability. The woman’s demeanor, and the narrator’s voice, in the last post’s Campbell’s soup commercial is an example of the weak, vulnerability women expect from lesser child-men – and a commensurate expectation of him to just get that he needs to be strong.

That’s the inconsistency in women’s Hypergamous nature and the narrative of the Feminine Imperative’s messaging. Be sweet, open, vulnerable; it’s OK to cry, ask for help, be sick and weakened, we’re all equal and empathetic – but, Man Up, “what, you need your mommy?”, assert yourself, the asshole is sexier than you, where’s your self-discipline? – but, your masculine identity is a mask you wear to hide the real you,……

I play many roles in the male life I lead today, and I’ve played many others in my past. I’m Rollo Tomassi in the manosphere, I’m a father to my daughter, a husband and lover to my wife, a brilliant artist and pragmatic builder of brands in my job, an adventure seeker when I’m on my snowmobile and a quiet contemplator of life and God when I’m fishing. All of those roles and more are as legitimate as I choose to make them. Do I have moments of uncertainty? Do I waiver in my resolve sometimes? Of course, but I don’t let that define me because I know there is no real strength in relating that.

The Red Pill Balance

Red Pill awareness is both a blessing and a curse. The trick is balancing your Red Pill expectations with your previous Blue Pill idealism. It’s not a sin for you to want for an idealistic reality – that’s what sets us apart from women’s opportunism. You do yourself no favors in killing you idealistic, creative sense of wonderment of what could be. The trick is acknowledging that aspect of your male self.

KFG had a comment to this point:

If men did not hold heroism as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.
If women did not hold survival as a higher ideal, we wouldn’t be here.

This was precisely the dynamic I was referring to when I wrote Idealism.

Men’s idealism and idealistic concepts of love are the natural counterbalance to women’s pragmatic, Hypergamously rooted opportunism and opportunistic concepts of love and vice versa. Those differing concepts can be applied very unjustly and very cruelly, or very judiciously and honorably, but they are the reality of our existence.

Red Pill awareness isn’t just about understanding women’s innate natures and behaviors, it’s also understanding your own male nature and learning how it fits in to that new awareness and living in a new paradigm. Is something like justice valuable for its own sake? I’d say so, but that concept of justice must be tempered (or enforced) in a Red Pill understanding of what to expect from women and men. Red Pill awareness doesn’t mean we should abandon our idealism or higher order aspirations, and it certainly doesn’t mean we should just accept our lot in women’s social frame because of it. It does mean we need to balance that idealism in as pragmatic a way with the realities of what the Red Pill shows us.

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Blaximus
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Okami, belated ” Go Fuck Yourself “.

Thanks.

kfg
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@Scribbler: Seconded.

Chris
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“She told me she doesn’t respect me as a man and she is moving back home across the country. Quite a shame. My hands are tied.”

I can’t help but sense a duplicitous failure on her part to say that you’re the father. And if she could just up-and-go like that, then maybe you invested more time and energy in the relationship than she did.

Sounds to me like they’ve just been untied.

Chump No More
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Glenn, I agree, great take down on the fallacy of MGTOW. Reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt’s ‘Man in the Arena’ speech… “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the… Read more »

kfg
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Worse than a sign of weakness, apologizing is a confession of guilt.
All that’s left after that is the sentencing and punishment.

Andy
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“I hear you on the wife pinging off that as an emotional reaction. It just didn’t occur to me at the time at all that that’s what she was doing.”

I wasn’t there, but maybe look back at past arguments and see if you notice that pattern. Or if she gets snippy with you when the kids piss her off. That’s another possibility. My wife does this shit all the time. Kids get crazy, she goes nuts, then I have to go and calm everyone down.

scribblerg
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A black man speaking some hard Red Pill truths to black women. For you racists out there who don’t realize it, many black folks recognize what’s what. He identifies white feminsts so precisely.

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js2beCdO6U0&w=560&h=315%5D

Dutchman
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@scrib “I’m finding (and always have known but struggled to do so) that escalating emotions in the face of a shit test is to guarantee a bad social outcome. There are a lot of ways to demonstrate dominance, and imperturbability is perhaps the best tool in the box when dealing with women (not men). CaveClown has given some masteful advice on this count, so I hope he weighs in, but another technique that is effective is escalating consequences, not emotions as you would do with a child having a tantrum. Chaos begins to unfold? Instead of calling her a bitch,… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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@ScribblerG Of course, shit tests are an abstraction we use to categorize complex behaviors in a workable way. The abstraction works well wrt interacting with women, and there are some interesting parallels and possibly some of the same psychological mechanisms operating in the background wrt society at large that allows us to make an interesting comparison, but ultimately we need to devise optimal strategies for both circumstances differently. Not to be pedantic, I just think it’s good to define the use and utility of terms occasionally @Dutchman Your error was to react with any emotion except amusement or zfg. You’d… Read more »

Dutchman
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I felt like I had to say something because it would be weak for me to let her get away with such blatant bullshit, I guess.

Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy
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@Dutchman The arc of that argument is what is called getting “Enmeshed”, a common argument tactic designed not to resolve an issue or dispute but to crush the other person’s ego, with the sole goal being full surrender and confession that you are right, which becomes a gut-level ego challenge on both sides. So the pattern escalates: keep changing tactics, attack from another angle, and keep escalating. It’s so easy to fall into. The hard lesson is you can’t stop it just by breaking the cycle, refusing to enmesh. Then the change up you’ll get is “you don’t communicate”, “you… Read more »

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@Dutchman I don’t normally post, but wanted to say that your conflict management is something that you should work on. First, you should dial back on the (uncontrolled) emotion. That’s hard for some people to do, but it is worth the effort. She will appreciate you being in control, she will ping off of your calmness, even in the face of her possibly outrageous behavior. Let her go nuts. If you are the oak, she will calm down 10x faster than if you supplicate and “try” to calm her down. You don’t necessarily need to apologize for calling her a… Read more »

Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy
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Also, in the context of a marriage/LTR, I think it wise to modify the CH rule on No Apologies. Being a total dick 24/7 is not indicated in an otherwise stable relationship where you are hanging together. If you err, apologize – ONCE. That’s it. Do not repeat or reaffirm.

If pressed to re-apologize and you’re Tam the Bam you can say, “I refer the Honorable Lady to the Reply I gave some moments ago.” (A stock answer you’d hear during Prime Minister’s Question Time in the British House of Commons).

Andy
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I actually think he could have gone down the road of insisting that she actually was a bitch too. lol. She crossed your line, get her to apologize. Kind of sleazy, but I can get my wife to think that anything was her fault. lol. I never have to do that anymore though. Most of the time when my wife’s a bitch I can just give her the unamused “you’re being a child” look. Then she apologizes.

Dutchman
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@Fred,

Yeah, I know I fucked up by apologizing multiple times.

@Andy

Good stuff, I appreciate your insight.

aleste81
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Amazing insight into our male and female ids.

DeNihilist
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Dutchman, been with wife for 30 years now. She has always known how to press THE button. I have told the story of friends of ours where the husband never, ever has shown any type of joining in her drama game. She doesn’t try that hard anymore.

I use this friends stoic behaviour as my model, but have relapses now and again.

Being of Italian heritage it is hard to be a rock amongst all that swelling of the sea.

rugby11
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@kfg
“And you define that someone, a priori, to be a woman. Why do you do that?”
In a way I was tired. But that’s so much of what hurt as far as growing was concerned. Because I didn’t lead I didn’t have safety and security and I never had a place to rest. Just a place to sleep.

Vektor
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@Niko “..I believe if that hypergamy takes your wife away, then you will feel the betrayal and hurt. But invariably you will move on. It will not change your world view.” I used to see my child every day. Now I don’t. It has left a hole in my heart that will never heal. My world view is VERY changed. @Artisanal Toad “The question is not how to fix the problems with women’s behavior, because that’s impossible. The question is how to arrange incentives within the relationship such that women solve their own problems, don’t behave badly and are motivated… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Vektor – “I used to see my child every day. Now I don’t. It has left a hole in my heart that will never heal. My world view is VERY changed.” Yep. Fucking yep. The more Red Pill I become, the more the loss of fatherhood and family outrages me. The more I realize how central it’s loss has been to destroying me in ways I never knew. I used to cry most Sunday nights on the drive home after dropping my daughter off. One Sunday, I began to well up too soon, I couldn’t hold the sadness in and… Read more »

informationjunkie1984
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@ScribblerG
@Rollo

OK I have found a solution to between the extremes of MGTOW and Performance Burden: Only pursue and have sex with married women.

What leverage could a woman possibly have over you in that case? If you get her pregnant, it’s someone else’s problem. She has no leverage to financially extort you. In fact, you will have all the leverage to financially extort her if you choose to. Fuck you and your marriage, Rollo. I hereby decree to the manosphere that married women, including your wife, are now fair game.

scribblerg
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@Infojunkie – What a petty little cunt you are. And oh yeah, good luck fucking Rollo’s wife, tell me, what chance do you think you have of outgaming Rollo? And we know you don’t really mean this, it’s just more adolescent bullshit from a frustrated MGTOW who knows he doesn’t measure up. Go away, man-child, adults are speaking.

scribblerg
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The good news is infojunkie pissed me off and now I feel like warming up and rehearsing to play tonight. This must be what it’s like when women use Infojunkie as a BetaOrbiter and use him as an emotional tampon, and then laugh at him, sometimes right in his face. I think I someone actually referring to him on twitter under #makinghimwait…

Don’t being a knife to a gunfight, bitch.

kfg
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@Scribbler: Although a bit out of fashion, bayonets were invented for a reason; sometimes you run out of bullets before you run out of zombies.

Have a good gig.

Sun Wukong
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@info I hereby decree to the manosphere that married women, including your wife, are now fair game. Hahaha, you think you’re decreeing that? How many times has YaReally laughed as he poked Rollo about the fact that it’s always been the case? How many times has Rollo grinned back and basically said “Bring it, bitch”? How many times did I have to drill home to Andy that his wife is always on the market due to the amorality of what’s learned here? How many guys here have stories of having hooked up with married women in the past, myself included?… Read more »

informationjunkie1984
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@ScribblerG

Actually I have no interest in Rollo’s wife, but someone might. In the workplace, it’s always married women trying to game me… You barely even have to try at all with them.

Forge the Sky
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Hey Glenn, hyperagency can be a bitch. But just because your actions contributed to something doesn’t mean it was your fault. This is our ecosystem – the tide is going out and we’ve lost sight of land. Some people have a notion and try swimming in a random direction. Most have no idea – they blame the waves. Here’s the redpill. You’ve been tossed a compass. But you still need to interpret it, and then you still need to swim. I’m feeling pretty down myself for whatever reason right now. I have hours of boring work ahead of me yet.… Read more »

bob bitchin
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@ all respondents to inceljunkie1984 homerun hits. way to put a boy in his place. nice Rcently made friends with a guy of armenian background. He related to me that, as we were getting to know each other, he thought I was italian. I’m an anglo. As a kid I looked quintisentially irish: brown hair, freckles and blue eyes. After aging, the Mediteranean genes (1/4 French-Canadian- my ancestors go all the way back to ‘l’Habitation’ in New France in the 1660’s but came from south-west france) came out. We had a laugh as I related how, growing up in Toronto… Read more »

stuffinbox
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@misinformed&junky

A man has respect for another mans property.If you put her up in the boyosphere that may be a tiny threat.
Maybe these maried women at work pity you as they are more attuned to what is happening than you are or should be for that matter.

stuffinbox
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@scribblerg
I always love a new gig everything i build is a new adventure in the planning and work.Keep a positve vision of the outcome and enjoy the journey.

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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@Vektor Dude, your world changed. I mean I was quoted there and I did read worldview, which I believe means a completely different thing. Meaning of course that as a red piller you expect that. You consider that a woman can be hypergamous and screw you over. It is in the cards, it’s part of the game. I am not saying is better or worse. But at least the difference is that you know what you are getting into. That is the burden of knowledge when it comes to this. If as a red piller you do not consider that… Read more »

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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*I now believe******

corypheus
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Women have a burden of performance too. It’s “don’t get fat”. Modern women’s response to this? Fat activism; not only are they refusing their burden, they’re demanding that men find it sexy. It’s analogous to if a large movement formed that demanded women to find beta/nice guys sexually arousing. How disgusted/offended we are at fat activism is probably equal to what women feel towards the men who complain about being friendzoned. Also, Rollo, you should put a spotlight on this article: http://shriverreport.org/what-about-the-fathers-kathryn-edin/ The gist: low income men aren’t deadbeat dads. This illusion is literally caused by hypergamy: women trading in… Read more »

Blaximus
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I thought I understood MGTOW, but now I’m confused by the comments here. ” Yes, it is. It’s called a delusional mindset. It leads you to engage in an endless quest for the mythical NAWALT. Instead, give up the BS fantasy of finding the perfect Disney Princess who will love you forever for just being yourself, and accept that no woman gives a damn who you are inside, they just want you to be the man that gives them the tingles or the guy with the money – – preferably both. Accept this reality and live a self-fulfilling life. MGTOW”… Read more »

kfg
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“If you say ” why “, I’ll always answer ” Why Not?”.”

I answer, “Because.”

Blaximus
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@scribblerg Re: David Caroll vid. I’m not a huge fan of David. But I must say that he is spot on in the vid you posted. He has his moments. I reached the same conclusion he speaks of 20 years ago. That’s why my take is that we need to legislate Child support, Welfare/section 8 and food stamps out of existence. Sounds harsh, I know, but I promise no one will starve to death in the U.S.. If people do start starving, we then need to legislate churches out of existence. Government funding fuels broken families and hypergamy. That same… Read more »

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kfg-

That works well also.

kfg
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@Blaximus: “That works well also.”

The difference is that “Why not?” is arbitrary and hands frame to them when they start to tell you exactly why not.

If Mallory had answered “Why not?,” the interview would have effectively ceased and changed into the interviewer lecturing him on what an idiot he was.

“Because” is directed and dominant.

Because . . . it’s there.
Because . . . I can.
Because . . . I look at you and it scares me that I could end up like that if just give up.

Tab Spangler
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Did anyone catch this one?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2016/01/06/for-middle-age-moms-like-me-divorce-can-be-the-best-aphrodisiac/

“If you had a new lover, you’d find your libido. It’s not that you’re no longer interested in sex; it’s just that you’re no longer interested in sex with your husband.”

Edelweiss
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Niko’s video at the beginning of the post was somewhat interesting to me, and I respect his point of view. The thing is, I don’t feel like I’m denying some part of myself by being stoic. Some of us display little of those emotions that can be perceived as “weakness” to people around us with minimal or no effort. It’s a quality that people have commented on about me for most of my adult life. It’s not because it’s being suppressed, it’s just not a natural response to cry, be afraid, etc. in most situations. An exception? I got a… Read more »

IAS
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@Edelweiss: it is difficult for most adults to see another adult cry I think, man or woman. That is part of the reason many women use crying to manipulate others (men and women alike). It is a bit different when men cry, at least in the sense that I don’t think many men pull off using it to their advantage.

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
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@Tab Spangler I once saw a patient who was asking for Viagra for erectile dysfunction. The patient told me that in essence he couldn’t perform sexually with his wife anymore and it was causing problems. When asked if he still gets morning wood, or whether he gets hard to pornography the man answered categorically Yes. I had to explain to him that he doesn’t suffer with erectile dysfunction but rather he simply does not find his wife attractive anymore. I ended up giving that man Cialis…. to save his marriage. It is not just women that suffer with this. Men… Read more »

Artisanal Toad
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@FTS I do not defend polygyny, I advocate it. The reason I advocate it is it’s a solution to just about every single problem the MGTOW’s cite to justify giving up on women. nearly no man will succeed at attaining this arrangement… it’s for an elite few. It’s true that only high-value men (alphas) can handle getting a polygynous marriage started, but that’s because women have to be extremely attracted to a man in order to make the choice to share him rather than hold out for monogamy. Given a choice between guys of equal value, women will pick monogamy… Read more »

IAS
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@Niko: I know what you meant, but the wording was funny – I smirked at “The constant moaning compromised my sexual appetite for that woman (…)”.

kfg
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“There’s something about looking at the grave markers for three or four young children from the same family who all died within a month of each other . . .”

I am familiar with cemeteries that were active in the 1600’s. The plurality of graves are for children under 2 years old. In some the majority.

Forge the Sky
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Lol ‘Hey babe wanna come look at graves with me?’ I’m imagining this line would be killer in a cocktail lounge pickup. In all seriousness though. That is an interesting vetting idea in the right context. I don’t think my comment about ‘lower income women’ was unreasonable- you reflected the same idea in your comment, and I don’t have a particularly large income. My reservation about this becoming accepted by society at large assumes its actual practice would become common. As men without access to women tend to become….restless. You need to find a way to deal with the extra… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Hey Toad,

How does sleeping work generally? Does everyone just sleep in a big pile? Or does each girl get her own bedroom and you get the master bedroom? Or is there just one ‘master’ and one ‘girls’ room where they have beds?

Not trying to be an ass lol I’m actually curious how this works out.

scribblerg
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@Forge – Great, honest comment up above. A few thoughts, probably not shocking to you. First, it’s simple – you have Oneitis for this broad and you admit it, so what the fuck are you doing? Oneitis is death for men, so it is nothing to play around with. My reco? Stop all contact beyond that which is required in the workplace. Excise her now. You are a strong man, exercise some discipline. More generally, wrt your game, I’m in a similar place in that escalating and closing the deal are still weak points for me. Are you doing a… Read more »

scribblerg
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Mini FR: So I went out to play my gig last night – it was an “originals” showcase at a small venue a guy in town is putting together. I’m a singer/songwriter, playing guitar. My music is best categorized as a bluesy/folks Americana, Neil Young is a huge musical influence for me and people who know him can detect that in some of my songs. The 52 yr old woman I’d met and dated in early December was there – she’s the fading super hottie, looks like a 40 yr old who was the prom queen? Tight bod, pretty face… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Art Toad – Holy shit, so much wisdom in what you shared, keep it coming (in more bite size chunks if you can, lol). It again makes me realize how low I’ve set my sights and how unwilling I am to really work for what I want. Great inspiration and insights, thanks!!!

redlight
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warning:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/406406/i_had_my_professional_profile_doxed_by_sjws_words/

My social media privacy settings are as tight as possible, I go by an alias, .. they used facial recognition software and identified my Professional Social Profiles which have my real name, employer and academic qualifications.

scribblerg
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@BobNotBitchin’SoMuch – Dude, I was so fucking happy to read your comment. Male companionship of the right sort, in particular that old world vibe you described so well is incredibly grounding and confirming for men like us. Sounds like you’ve found a wing and a real friend. But it also sounds like you are playing bigger and are accessing more of your joy so HOORAY for that! One comment. As I said to Forge above, consider doing a real PUA course (not live, a video one is fine) and having your wing do it too. My wing is becoming a… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Redlight – Yup, guys here should be incredibly circumspect about their overall identity. As a related aside, we should also be thoughtful about how and whom we engage. When I shared what I found about Emily on her public Google+ page, I realized that this might be an incentive to have someone actually dox me – and I have an actual and meaningful social media presence for my own business online so it really matters for me. In a way, provoking someone in that way was incredibly stupid of me. I don’t get into the Redpill much anywhere else but… Read more »

redlight
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some formulas in a couple of comments on r/TheRedPill

Alpha = Frame + Game

…but for the person who is less far along we have:

MGTOW = Frame

…those who are Blue Pill:

Beta = Slavery

…and let’s not forget:

PUA = Game

…from this we might derive:

MGTOW + PUA = Alpha

…which is kind of funny,

Frame + Game + Slavery = Alpha + Beta = Marriage

scribblerg
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redlight
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redlight
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Indian needs to engineer “um” out of his talking

Culum Struan
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Not read all comments here yet but just to say 100% agree on the doxxing stuff. It doesn’t even have to be outright doxxing. Do you really want your comments here taken out of context and misinterpreted as being a rape apologist, online stalker (re some of the more aggressive comments made to/about Emily for example) etc? Even more important when actually posting Field Reports. Everything I post is true, but I make damn sure to hide identifying details that are not relevant to the story (like if I say I went out on Tuesday, it might be Wednesday, and… Read more »

redlight
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my worst experience of *who knows me in real life* was being on an online hookup site, and having a conversation with my sister-in-law (wife’s brother’s spouse) to the point we both started to suspect who the other was

redlight
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nobody said anything afterward – mutual assured destruction

A Definite Beta Guy
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I can’t comment too much about the MGTOW, but regarding idealism. “Romance” was co-opted in much the same “Chivalry” was. We don’t describe ourselves as romantic, because that sounds like sappy romantic comedy nonsense, but the actual Romantic movement had more to do with connecting to your own raw emotions and the world at large. The correct terminology is “romanticizing” something. For instance, people often “romanticize” old houses because all the shit shacks they built in the 20s aren’t standing anymore. “Oh, the beautiful plaster walls, the hardwood trims everywhere!” Romanticizing the old home. Compare to me whining about uneven… Read more »

SJF
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@ScribblerG and Forge the Sky

Check your email.

I’m still in no comment mode until the next essay. As a masculine self-improvement stunt. And I am experiencing an Extinction Burst.

A Definite Beta Guy
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I probably don’t manage my Wife as well as I should since I am prone to an angry response once in a while. Generally my response is an aggressive: “Seriously? Better change that attitude.”

I can think of one point in the last year she really pushed the envelope and I gave her a good verbal lashing. No repeats.

Anyways, I need to assemble this snowblower. Chicago-land area is getting 1-3″ today and I already see falling flakes. Don’t want to kill my back shoveling shit again.

Culum Struan
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Haha @redlight

Just stepped back from the brink eh?

Did both of you KNOW for sure or both suspected and just stopped communicating? (Also, um – wouldn’t you have recognized each other from photos?)

Fred Flange, Weeknd Dood
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@niko your idea of giving the patient Cialis was a good one for a different reason. This is according to a couple of high-TMI acquaintances of mine who talked way too much about their issues with this stuff (and one saying how he needed to use ArtSem to create an EnSoc, knowhutahmsayin?). They could get wood just fine, but couldn’t maintain it for a long period – though they said they could still climax after going soft! The Cialis just gave them more hard time, so to speak, so as not to go all flippy floppy. Yes I should start… Read more »

redlight
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We did not know for sure (we were using aliases, no pictures), but strongly suspected due to information exchanged, and stopped communicating

scribblerg
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@DefBeta – Much more the topic of “romantic love” (not just romance). Here is a great link http://gynocentrism.com/2014/07/20/romantic-love-by-lester-f-ward-1903/

The entire site, http://www.gynocentrism.com is a good resource for RP men to learn about how “courtly love” and chivalry emerged to control men. While the impulses were not new, the formal social conventions which emerged in medieval times in court were new expressions of them and still linger in Western society. Okay, out for 6 miles of walk/run hiit style. Fatty gotta make some progress…

scribblerg
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@Def – A little excerpt here to demonstrate the brilliance on display at that site. :Romantic love was due primarily to the greater equality and independence of woman. She reacquired to some extent her long-lost power of selection, and began to apply to men certain tests of fitness. Romantic love therefore marks the first step toward the resumption by woman of her natural scepter which she yielded to the superior physical force of man at the beginning of the androcratic period. It involves a certain degree of female selection or gyneclexis, and no longer permitted man to seize but compelled… Read more »

Craiger
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First, Rollo should be treasured for his insight and what he provides in his blog. The comment about “fan boys” and such is so off base. Of course I’m a fan, who else writes with this much depth and without the bias, but stil has the science / research behind his articles? Nobody. It amazes me how soon we want to take down a person who at least for me, saved my life because what he wrote resonated in such a level I began to see things as the were, not what the FI conditioned and taught me. That said… Read more »

kfg
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@Scribbler: Peter Wright, not his real name, and so far as anyone else can tell, including people who have actually worked with him, a newcomer to the AVfM scene and had nothing at all to do with founding MGTOW and, far from distancing himself from MGTOW wants to be seen as one, although virtually every MGTOW rejects him as such (the exception being married men who also want to be seen as MGTOW, as Wright offers some support to the idea that married men can be MGTOW). None of which has any impact on the information on the site, which… Read more »

bob bitchin
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@scrib: appreciate the feedback and support my brother kudos on ‘pimpin’ that older broad. the fadin prom queen. hey bro, nothin wron with autumn. bulbs burn brightest at end of life. Me and my pal are going to need to sit down and do some review. we both are non-mainstream, highly analytical thinkers. between here, yareally, krauser and some pimpin vids on youtube we are probably going to go straight to field work soon. It is hard to understand how difficult to be a fish out of water. If I had learned the right second language as a lad I’d… Read more »

cheupez
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@Craiger “The comment about “fan boys” and such is so off base.” I think not. No matter how agreeable in the beginning, a student is he is bound to disagree with a teacher at some point. It is inevitable. It is OK. I would not just walk away though like our friend did (or wants to). I accidentally ran into the TRM sometime last year. The first article I read was the one about there being NO ONE. I finished reading it, I found myself voraciously munching through all year one and year two, then the whole blog, comments and… Read more »

scribblerg
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@Cheupez – You, who declares himself a narcissist and nihilist with your last comment, calling people thuggish is truly rich. Here’s some advice for you. Don’t try to be a thinker, be a consumer of good thought. Your mind isn’t up to it. There is so much wrong and facile with what you just laid out that it’s simply not worth trying to straighten it all out. But hey, keep whipping monkey dung… @KFG – Excerpt from a piece on AVFM about who Peter Wright is. “Editorial note: this week we will be featuring several articles on the topic of… Read more »

cheupez
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Above 3rd line I meant:
No matter how agreeable in the beginning a student is, he is bound to disagree with a teacher at some point. It is inevitable.

cheupez
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Easy @Scrib. Monkey dung heheheee. Leave it crooked.

kfg
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Scribbler: The AvFM website is a marketing brochure. It was written chiefly by Paul Elam who is as full of shit as a Port-A-Potty at a chilli festival.

I, on the other hand, am one of the people who knows his real name and I have no reason to bamboozle you into being one of my followers.

I was also MGTOW before Peter Wright was born and I’d never heard of him before he started writing for AvFM.

And I do not claim to be any part of founding MGTOW. Even Diogenes had a teacher.

IAS
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This is a bit because Cheupez admits to wanting to be self-serving (which to some extent is also what MGTOW want, right?) Just like Red Pill suggests men should not be ashamed of desiring sex, I think humans should not be ashamed of being selfish. I’m selfish. It is part of (individual) human nature and partly responsible for our (collective) success as a species. I’m also pretty certain Altruism is also positively selected for on a collective survival sense. Altruism of a man for a woman being an important Red Pill example. One must be careful with Altruism, perhaps even… Read more »

IAS
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Also I watched Blue Valentine today. It does indeed serve as a very good example.

Made me think a bit about Revolutionary Road, which was much more hard hitting for me, and from memory I think also is a good demonstration of Red Pill wisdom (American Beauty was also good in that respect). But I watched both of these a while ago and before I had my own Red Pill lens.

scribblerg
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@KFG – Peter Wright was around for a long time before AVFM – since you know him, why don’t you ask?

scribblerg
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@IAS – Ya wanna do this? Okay, let’s do so. One does not need to be altruistic to recognize that we live in a social setting and that we have collective concerns. Whether it’s friends, family, workplace, community, ethnicity, nationalism, religious affinity, we all are products of and rely on social structures of many sorts for our very existence. To consciously abandon your role and responsibility in those social structures is to negate human civilization and existence. Such vapid nihilism as Cheupez blathers is as common as peas in MGTOW, hence another reason I find their “movement” a fucking joke.… Read more »

kfg
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@Scribbler: Peter Wright, the Chief Marketing Officer of AVfM, does not exist. Peter Wright is a character. His history is backstory, not fact.The man who writes under the name Peter Wright plays that character. That’s why he uses the name “Peter,” the name of the fictional character who he believes serves as the example of the ultimate MGTOW. Why would a man who had left MGTOW in disgust long ago choose such a name for such reasons, go around telling everyone how MGTOW he is and so recently write a book with Paul Elam which they claim to be the… Read more »

talprofs
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@IAS Interesting and reasonable take on my commbut . The woman in question is not actually married, but, curiosly, had told me that that was her stated desire with regard to her LOTR! But he failed to reciprocate, hence her interest in me in what I perceived as her Plan B ‘monkey branch’ alternative (she is much younger than I am and has reached the ‘cash-out’ phase of her sexual development). Yes, I was prepared to enable her to stray — but she got cold feet and backed-out. At the same time, while I had been generally OK with the… Read more »

scribblerg
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@KFG – Perhaps you know more than me, but I knew of gynocentrism.com and heard of Peter Wright a year or more before “he” showed up at AVFM. But I also haven’t spent a lot of energy on it and certainly don’t want to spend anymore. I remember Rollo mentioning him once, it would be interesting to here what he has to offer, if anything.

Regardless, the site has been around forever and it’s got great info on the development of courtly love, romance and chivalry.

talprofs
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@IAS

For ‘commbut’ in first paragraph of above post, please read ‘comment’.

Apologies

talprofs

Forge the Sky
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Thanks for your input above, Glenn. By coincidence I actually started watching Julien’s PIMP right after I wrote that, ha. For context, it was late at night, I was mired in work after a tough week, and I was fighting a fever (seem to have mostly shaken it today). It really brought all the negative to the fore. That’s still me, sometimes. I’m fighting like hell to rid myself of the one-itis. Thing is, I think I’m mostly past it – but she’s not past needing it from me. So she knows how to scare out an emotional reaction from… Read more »

kfg
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@Scribbler: ” . . . the site has been around forever . . .”

The about page is dated July 14, 2013. No article is dated earlier than that. When he put up the site he and Elam got into a tiff about Elam not giving him a banner ad on the AVfM site.

” . . . and it’s got great info on the development of courtly love, romance and chivalry.”

Please note that I not only said nothing derogatory about the site, but actually endorsed it.

kfg
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@Forge: “Has no-one here ever loved riding a motorcycle?”

Goddam I miss my RD400, but I think that it would be less than wise for me to acquire a Mike Hailwood TT Replica Ducati, assuming I could find one for sale.

“Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.”

scribblerg
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@Forge – I get it, trust me. My ex used to rope me back in with ease, and there have been other women who have that effect. I do really appreciate the honesty and introspection you bring to this. @KFG – Never looked at the dates, fair enough. All I know is that back when I had a MGTOW channel, I cited stuff on the site – a full year or more before he was ever mentioned at AVFM – back when I kept up on them. If it is some kind of ruse, it’s just more evidence of how… Read more »

kfg
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@Scribbler: “If it is some kind of ruse, it’s just more evidence of how weird those folks are…”

There ya go.

Blaximus
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Plenty of unmarried pussy out in the world. Don’t enable the cheaters if at all possible.

kfg
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@Forge: But it appears that someone has a sense of humour about it:

http://41.media.tumblr.com/4fd0dd2d82f18f5a045d52be291cfc55/tumblr_nbjagdBcRy1tpfl9fo1_1280.jpg

@Scribbler: It appears that this site and a few others have been reinforcing my tendency to British spelling; the spell checker doesn’t like American.

Blaximus
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Forge, Had 2 bikes in my 20’s. One was an old Triumph that someone made into a chopper. The other was a Honda 750. I went down on the Honda on a curvy, gravel strewn country road at 70-80 mph and lived to tell about it. Haven’t been on a bike since, lmao. I hear you about ” speed ” though. In a few hours I’ll be commuting home and there will be triple digits on the speedo. It’s like that everyday. My Will is updated and in order. : ) Speaking of women…. I used to put gals in… Read more »

kfg
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A Honda 750 was the last bike I rode as well, but I dropped it going 0 mph in a parking lot. For a while I didn’t think I was going to be able to get out from under it. I was lying their imagining the headline, “Man dies because he’s too much of a wimp to get out from under his own bike.” Swore I’d never ride a bike I couldn’t lift again and you can’t register an Aprilia 125 in my state. Almost bought a 50cc Maserati a few years ago, but when I went back to see… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
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Thanks for the link, Scrib. I’ll peruse the website tomorrow morning and take note of posts that pique my interest. Trying to amp up the herb and veggie garden this year, so that’s on the docket tomorrow, too. Snow turned out not to be that bad….no need for the snowblower after all. Drat. @Forge Good luck with that oneitis. Been there, done that, same as everyone else here. Sounds like you have a special narcissistic kind of oneitis too. Bad News Bears. At least you know that means you need some inner work still. Best of luck getting back into… Read more »

Striver
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ScribblerG:

As far as women being clay, I’d be careful. There’s a difference between a woman who is being led and one who is simply dancing backwards. Personally, I can’t tell which are which.

Sun Wukong
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@Forge

“Has no-one here ever loved riding a motorcycle?”

Still have my Triumph Sprint ST 1050 (they’ll have to pry that thing from my flaming, well-charred corpse), and I’ve already picked out my next toy that I’ll put in the garage next to it. Leave it to the Italians to make such a dangerously fast, gorgeous hooligan machine. Triumph needs a refresh of their Speed Triple’s engine or they’re gonna get left behind.

keyser Soze
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Scribblerg “One does not need to be altruistic to recognize that we live in a social setting and that we have collective concerns. Whether it’s friends, family, workplace, community, ethnicity, nationalism, religious affinity, we all are products of and rely on social structures of many sorts for our very existence. To consciously abandon your role and responsibility in those social structures is to negate human civilization and existence.” .” I suggest anyone who doesn’t understand the power and importance of social groups to human development read E. O. Wilson’s The Social Conquest of Earth. In fact, it should be required… Read more »

keyser Soze
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Hey! , Dividedline, come here and have a look at Scribblerg’s comment.

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