Ladders & Snakes

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All men are created equal. What you do from there is up to you.

Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but always take the credit

Use the wisdom, knowledge, and legwork of other people to further your own cause. Not only will such assistance save you valuable time and energy, it will give you an aura of efficiency and speed. In the end your helpers will be forgotten and you will be remembered. Never do yourself what others can do for you.

When I was first introduced the the 48 Laws of Power the seventh was the one I had the most trouble accepting. I should really say I have trouble ’employing’ this law, because I’ve spent my entire life as an artist in some capacity and I’m very particular about the integrity and character of what it is I create. Obviously we have rights management and plagiarism laws to ensure against the more blatant ‘stealing’ of ideas, but a lot of what accounts for taking unwarranted credit occurs in more nuanced social situations.

It’s usually in these social circumstances that the average person makes use of Law 7. It’s hardly a law at all considering how naturally humans will use it. In a purely ethical sense it’s kind of a no-brainer; don’t assume credit that you’re undeserving of, but bending the perceptions of what we base our estimates on is where the real art comes in.

On a personal level, my investment in what I create and how that creation is received is what matters most to me. I understand the want for a quick reward, but I’m more concerned with a cheap imitation of what I’ve created debasing the quality and effort it took to create it. For instance, I’ve spent the better part of my career creating products and brands for people with a lot of money who really had no real investment in what it was I was making for them. All they wanted was a “product” that they could promote and sell.

Naturally the quality and integrity of that brand or product had to be something they could get behind (the horse must at least look like it could win), but not be held too personally accountable should that product end up being less than ideal. That’s a nice way of saying most salesmen I’ve known love a widget if it’s something that sells, but they’re never really on the hook for if it sucks – that accountability rests with the creator.

While we were dining after the Man in Demand conference we had discussion about exactly this dynamic. I make an effort to keep my business endeavors as businesslike as possible, but there are brands and things I create that I will personally invest myself into. I have to be very careful of this because it took me a long time (and more than a few failed attempts) to develop the discernment to know what’s worth putting myself into. However, it is especially satisfying for me to travel to another country and see one of my bottles in the duty-free stores at the airport and then be at a bar & grill somewhere on vacation and see one on the backbar.

I explained to the guys that what I create (and own) are not “products” to me. I dislike that term in that sense. I understand the utility of that word to salesmen; product is an easy unit of measure, but to the person creating that thing it’s a measure of the quality of their idea. To refer to that creation as a product impersonalizes that creation and allows the seller to remain at arms distance should the creation be wildly popular or a horrible failure.

That pride of ownership or the abandoning of it is a convenience for someone only invested in promoting that thing, but on some level it is never really theirs with the same responsibility as the one who created it. So ultimately the noncommittal position of selling, promoting, endorsing, etc. becomes an arrangement of convenience since the creator’s idea is where the ‘product’s’ strengths lie – and also where the real accreditation should too.

I’ve occasionally been accused by the ignorant on Twitter of being dependent on The Rational Male for my revenue. Most of my regular readers know what I do for a living and understand why that’s silly, but I don’t think it’s any real secret that what I write here and in the books is something very personal to me. The Rational Male has always been something I’ve invested myself in for obvious reasons, but I’ve always resisted turning it into a brand per se. There wont be any TRM T-Shirts coming in the foreseeable future.

I’m proud to be responsible for what I do here and I will never be beholden to making what I create into a ‘product’ for others to sell. One of the best things about being in the position I am is being anti-fragile enough to write what I believe is important while still keeping myself solvent on what I do apart from it. This allows me a much greater freedom than needing to write something to stay solvent.

Bargain Debasement

You’ll have to forgive my intro here, but it got me to thinking about a larger point I had in mind about how and why a man invests himself in various endeavors in life. I’ve worked hard to get to a point in life where I can say my personal successes (and failures) are my own and not the result of others’ funding or some fortunate dispensation, but rather based on the strength of ideas and responsibly owning them as the creator. Yet another reason I have a problem with Law 7; for as much as you may gain by employing it you rarely develop the insights that failing of your own accord teaches you. Experience teaches harsh, but it teaches best.

I think one of the reasons men find the popularized, feminist, social convention of ‘male privilege‘ so disingenuous is because we want to be appreciated for the sacrifices and perseverance needed to even have what looks like a meager, hand-out, kind of privilege. An atmosphere of default privilege debases what men have honestly invested themselves in. I’ve always held that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate their feminine-primary reality, but that’s not to discount men’s want to still be appreciated for them.

Whether that’s manifested in financial wealth, personal freedom, status or earned wisdom there’s a fundamental want for an appreciation that is rarely ever forthcoming. One reason I believe many men have a self-fulfilling definition of what it is to be Alpha is because they feel they’ve earned that identification through hard work and playing by a set of rules everyone else should, but get frustrated when their efforts go unappreciated, if not outright exploited. Again, Law 7. It’s galling to see others rewarded for exploiting what you think should be appreciated.

There’s a subset of MGTOW reader/writers who question every man’s motive for doing what it is he does thinking that appeasing women is at the root of every effort. Nothing is a genuinely inspired passion if the end result is women’s affectations. I covered this in Crisis of Motive, but what exactly is a genuine motive in that sense? If the byproduct result of my genuine interests is having sex with gorgeous women and/or a beautiful wife and a couple of well adjusted kids should that then discredit my unique talents and interests in what I do?

What if, after all a man does, he seeks an appreciation that will only rarely be unsolicited on his part? It’s one thing to command respect; it’s quite another to demand it.

Institutionalized Success

In this sense I think what is most egregious about the present state of marriage is that, for the greater part, all of the personal equity a man invests in himself over the course of his lifetime is only a divorce settlement away from being halved for him (if not more so). A man’s personal equity (not to be confused with relational equity) is only one false rape allegation away from ruin. This is the institutionalization of Law 7: that a woman can largely and legally get a man to do all the work and then take (at least half) the credit from his own success – or at least that’s the social expectation.

Granted, a woman can also be on the hook for her lack of character judgement should she pair with a man who becomes a burden to her. There are rare instances when a woman may find herself financially beholden to a bad choice in marriage, but then it’s a situation of that man’s genuine achievements in life and usually an inability to take his burden of performance and make the most of it. For the most part, the role of support falls to the man in societal expectations; women and feminized men are the ones supported.

In fact, it’s a point of shame for men to be supported in such a fashion. Whether that’s warranted of not, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves than what they started with. A needed provisioning from women only puts his achievements’ validity in question. Like it or not, men should avoid the perception of themselves not pulling their own weight.

Doing More

A while back I was asked why the Burden of Performance should be called a “burden” at all. Should it not be a “challenge” or a “opportunity”? All optimist semantics aside, it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.

I’m sure equalist critics will want to cast women into the same performance role, but in a uniquely male sense, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves. To be a ‘man’ is to produce in excess of what you consume – thus having the potential to support a family, an extended family, ensure security, give back to his community and/or reinvest that excess in greater endeavors or passions. While it may be part of the Feminine Imperative’s media campaign to popularize the character of the Strong Independent Woman® there is still room for women to expect the best out of a man while being provided for herself. In other words women have both the option to strive for independence while also retaining the option to be provided for by her husband or an LTR. And failing either of these, they retain an institutional right to Law 7.

Men must be independent resource providers, they must make more of themselves than what they began with, independent of dispensations or special privilege. There is no safety net, no other socially acceptable option to be provided for and still retain his being definitively a ‘man’. One of the hesitations I have with endorsing the Red Pill idea of going ‘Monk Mode’ is less about the isolation and more about the motivation men need to find within themselves to better themselves.

We look down on men who are dependent on women. Whether that’s financially, emotionally or physically, there is no option for dependence. One of the primary complaints professional, educated, independent women bemoan is their inability to pair off with a man of ‘like’ (or above) status. They’ll make euphemisms to characterize the men who would be their ‘equals’ who wont date them, but what they fail to acknowledge is the fundamental, root level truth of men’s burden of performance. For all the high-minded hopes of equalism, women’s Hypergamy still wants to filter for both sexual and provider acceptability in men.

Back in 2012 I based a post on Creative Intelligence from a study about how improvisational skills and creativity factored into a woman’s Hypergamous considerations. I wont quote it in length here, but suffice it to say that there is a measurable difference in how women perceive men with a trained or innate ability to improvise in, and overcome, times of adversity. As might be expected a man with a proven capacity to produce more than he consumes – especially when he’s had to come back from failure or misfortune – tends to be a more attractive mate choice that the man who chances into his own affluence.

Bear in mind that attraction and arousal are different sides of the Hypergamy coin (AF/BB), but many cross-cultural studies suggest that a capacity for creative, innovative, adaptive intelligence has been an evolutionarily selected-for socio-sexual trait in men – much less so in women. That’s important for the MGTOW critic to remember, it’s not as simple as a feminine-primary social order dictating men being slaves to their burden of performance. Just as gender is primarily biological, and not a social construct, neither is women’s evolved, Hypergamous sexual filtering.

Filters

Now, with the evolutionary basis of attraction in mind, it’s also important to consider that in our evolutionary past women evolved to take calculated risks in optimizing their Hypergamous sexual selectivity. The utility such Red Pill concepts as social proof, dread, Game, amused mastery, etc. are evidenced because they work with (or sometimes against) this Filter.

From The Curse of Potential:

Hypergamy wants a pre-made Man. If you look at my now infamous comparative SMP curve, one thing you’ll notice is the peak SMV span between the sexes.

Good looking, professionally accomplished, socially matured, has Game, confidence, status, decisive and Just Gets It when it comes to women. Look at any of the commonalities of terms you see in any ‘would like to meet’ portion of a woman’s online dating profile and you’ll begin to understand that hypergamy wants optimization and it wants it now. Because a woman’s capacity to attract her hypergamous ideal decays with every passing year, her urgency demands immediacy with a Man embodying as close to that ideal as possible in the now.

Hypergamy takes a big risk in betting on a man’s future potential to become (or get close to being) her hypergamous ideal, so the preference leans toward seeking out the man who is more made than the next.

The problem with this scenario as you might guess is that women’s SMV depreciates as men’s appreciates — or at least should appreciate. As I outlined above, the same hypergamy that constantly tests and doubts the fitness of a man in seeking its security also limits his potential to consistently satisfy it.

As I’ve mentioned in many prior posts, Hypergamy demands assurances. In fact so paramount is that need for Hypergamous certainty that women have evolved peripheral awareness to be sensitive to psychological and socio-sexual cues that confirm a man’s Hypergamous acceptability to her. Furthermore, so important is this need of assurance that in a society founded on feminine social primacy, the Feminine Imperative will legislate legal institutions to prevent men from misrepresenting themselves as a more optimal Hypergamous choice – as well as legislate penalties that insure women against both Hypergamous fraud and less than optimal mating choices.

As you might guess, the development and evolution of Game is one such psycho-social contingency men refine and use to workaround this Hypergamous filtering; and one that the imperative is still making efforts to restrict. However this doesn’t discount the way men have, in the past, built themselves up based on both social expectations, but also genuine interests and passions. Naturally, if a man is the genuine article and as a byproduct attracts women as a result of it, that might be preferable to ‘faking it till you’re making it’ – but if that’s the route you go be sure that you do in fact ‘make it’ because it’s what you feel passionate about.

Warnings

The primary reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to help men avoid having women’s institutionalization of Law 7 ruin their long term personal efforts and achievements. Many critics want to lock horns with me as to when a man’s Peak SMV generally occurs in life. That’s fine, but whether or not you agree with my accuracy in this regard the fact remains that it takes much more concentrated, long term effort to reach that peak than women’s fast-burn peak SMV. I don’t just mean this in terms of his professional status, but also his maturity, his acquired wisdom, his judgement of others’ character, the lessons learn from the bruises of his failures and near misses.

All of this requires an investment in oneself that simply the having of resources handed to you will never satisfy. That personal investment in oneself, as it should, amounts to a lot of internalized equity – an equity that will never be appreciated by women whose Hypergamy is looking for a pre-made man. Hypergamy doesn’t care about the effort and perseverance required to achieve the status you (should) enjoy at your SMV peak.

I’ll be the first to admit that when it comes to short term sexual selection, the most wanton sex I had was at the time in my life when I was the poorest. As an underemployed semi-rockstar I used hit it with the best of them, and from a purely sexual perspective, it’s true, criminal and Alpha cads will still fuck 80% of women. But there’s more to the worth of a man than just his notch count. Sexual experience constitutes a very important measure of that, but a man should want more for himself as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad.

Life experience and the benefits that a man should draw from it are personally valuable. In fact, men feel the equity of these efforts are so valuable that men will commit suicide at 5 times the rate of women; and in particular between the ages of 45-49. Why do you suppose that is? What assurances of long term security does the common man have for himself? What is he faced with when the plan he sets forth for himself in his life is destroyed in one precarious instance?

Once again, using the male deductive logic, it may seem a better option for him to hit the reset button than to be faced with having his life’s equity, his largest investment, his creation, stolen from him. This is a graphic illustration of men’s Burden of Performance, a burden women simply don’t face.

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rugby11
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rugby11

When you can neg and compliment your wife/GF in the same line without thinking about it, then you’ve internalized the Game. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q52yy8APHLU Game to me is the a counter attack to the feminen imperative. Something to use in exchange for the harsh truths that almost destroy once you attempt to internalize them. I really appreciate approaching the world in a manner of curiously glee that dosnt hover over past hardships. But the world I live once me to build an empire. Something from nothing. I’m reading about billy wilder and he reads and breaths redpill truths in all his affairs… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky

Wildman, I think kfg is gently implying you’re not gonna armchair quarterback this one. Dive hardcore into biology, neurology, psychology, or mathematics. Become a world expert at some sub-sub-subfield therein. Create new knowledge. Then you will have contributed your pebble to the prospective pyramid.

Otherwise sit back and enjoy the view from your own two eyes instead of through a microscope. If you’re sharp you can get a pretty good impression of the overall patterns of things.

thelastoftheonly
Guest

Damn this is one of the most RP comprehensive pieces I’ve read. Everything is touched upon here and it all comes full circle to show the whole birds eye view. I love this. Thank you for your hard work sir it makes my life make sense, makes order from the struggles I deal with as a man.

CaveClown
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CaveClown

“When you can neg and compliment your wife/GF in the same line without thinking about it, then you’ve internalized the Game.” I’m far from that, but hopefully not as far as I think. Can’t logic your way through a relationship with a woman, just does not work. Rugby, “I’ve never been able to forgive myself for thinking I should apologize or wanting to get my dick wet.” This and other comments on this post…you doing alright man? Re: Gas lighting All women and children gas light to an extent, because gas lighting is conflict, guilt, and shame avoidance behavior. Lots… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus

these are not the droids you are looking for. Wait…wrong comment thread.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@Caveclown
I’m fine just angry about my short comings and attempts to change old parts of myself.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

Rugby,

Keep your chin up dude.

Rollo,

I’ve seen several comments disappear and then reappear, or change order with other comments. Fyi

Blaxs droid comment and rugby s angry comment have 3 times switched positions …

Wild Man
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Wild Man

@CaveClown – yeah I would agree that on one level gas-lighting is about conflict, guilt, and shame avoidance behavior (i.e. – agency-refusal). But I think it goes well beyond that though, with the particular way women try to form an opinion about what is true (reality-testing) – it is by way of consensus, and it is more of a feel’s-based consensus. How would that play-out initially, in the presence of some rationality? Like gas-lighting, of the type that is more than “I didn’t say that” – but more of the type that “your rational analysis of the agreed facts, is… Read more »

CaveClown
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CaveClown

Wild man, What you described would never ever work. Not ever. Don’t think so much. Its really simple. You cannot argue rationally with a woman that chooses to gas light. She will literally not even hear you, much less understand. She does not care to understand either! Not one fuck will be given for your man logic! And that is ok because she is not a man! The only way is to not engage, or game the hell out of her if you want the practice. (A&A works) You gotta meet her feelz with feelz (game), not logic. (Or drop… Read more »

Wild Man
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Wild Man

@CaveClown – I think pretty much all women gas-light in the way I described (for the purpose of reality testing). I think that in fact this is the basic nature of the Feminine Imperative (gas-lighting writ-large). You can’t get away from it (unless you spurn society and go live on a mountain). I know my approach does work because it has worked for me many times now (whereas in my past, my other approaches did not work). Of course women are not logical, and a woman may not be give a fuck about my man logic (some try though but… Read more »

SJF
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SJF

Hey Wild Man, ever hear of Law #4 of the 48 Laws of Power? I didn’t think so…… Stop being so fucking agentic. (whatever the hell that means). Frame is not power……repeat after me……Keeping Frame is not power. And stop mentally jacking off so much. Mental masturbation is not frame you know. And you wonder why you draw so many Beta tells from women…. Show me a woman that isn’t impulse-control-compromised. And I’ll show an equalist, non complementarian, non-polar boring soul. One without true desire for you. Good luck with that…… Don’t get me wrong. I like nerds. Just not… Read more »

Wild Man
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Wild Man

@SJF – well I guess I will take your advice then and apply the 4th law now with respect to you. Perhaps you should take you own advice though.

Roused
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Roused

So many good conversations going on here. From Blax: Your number One mission in life is constant self improvement. Big steps, small steps, whatever works best for you because it is all about you. Indeed. Tuffluv wrote: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates — brilliant apex geniuses and techno-gods.. Uh.. no. Wozniak Ive Allen THEY built this world. Jobs and Gates were simply masters of Law 7 Yes, they were masters of 7. They were also leaders, especially Jobs. Yes he took all the credit and he was a complete ass to a lot of people. Jobs also led Apple to become… Read more »

Wild Man
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Wild Man

@kfg – are you suggesting the Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness line of inquiry with respect to the exploration of the “noise” I suggested may be a component of humankind phenomenon (noise that I suggested has been transfigured, by way of real abstraction, into something more than just “noise”, into a real emergent property, in at least one way – the ghost-like self-awareness we possess that we have fashioned into the real abstraction we call human agency – our belief in our ability to take decisions)? If so – interesting thought – and I don’t know enough about the Navier–Stokes existence… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Wild Man: “are you suggesting the Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness line of inquiry with respect to the exploration of the “noise” I suggested may be a component of humankind phenomenon . . .” Your local shopping mall was designed (circa 1970) using Navier-Stokes and statistical thermodynamics, as it turns out that the motion of humans in a cylinder closely resembles that of fluids and gasses to the molecular level. The existence and smoothness problems remain unsolved. The three body problem, where three bodies in motion react to each other by a single, simple force, has been demonstrated to be unsolvable.… Read more »

Henry Zora
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Rollo, I have been reading you for more than two years now, and I have the two TRM books published so far. Because of your work, I was able to help myself out of the barrel of crabs, and subsequently help one young friend I started (and finished) to mentor. Thank you for your work, man. As you may notice, I have never really commented here at TRM blog (although I do RT and eventual comments on Twitter, as @Scienssu). However, today I’d like to ask you something about the TRM books. I notice there is a Korean version of… Read more »

Liz
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“Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but always take the credit” I know a lot of people in high level leadership positions, and some got there using this tactic. They don’t have a lot of friends, and little loyalty from their subordinates. That’s a pretty big quality of life thing. I’ve never been a “leader” per say (except for nurses aids at the hospital) but this would not have been a good tactic for nursing either, where a good relationship with one’s subordinates is pretty crucial. Mike says this quote quite often, and lives by it.… Read more »

Scribblerg
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Scribblerg

@Driver – it’s far worse than “rookie” mistakes that we see with women and the FI dominating many institutions of our society. Nietzsche predicted how the world would devolve when women attempted to masculinize themselves, nothing how our public intellectual dialogs would descend into a hash of nonsense. Consider just how disconnected the average Prog-Marxist-SJW (most of them don’t even realize they are Marxists) is from reality? Think about how many times the mythical “wage gap” has been debunked. Or take the hysteria over “mass shootings” – a new category of violence conflated into being by the agitprop artists over… Read more »

just getting it
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just getting it

re – the sex by deception law.

One of the best comments I’ve read on this site was about how a junior doctor made out he was some kind of contractor.
His girl found out about his doctor status by rifling his phone.
The killshot – “I would never have slept with you so soon if I knew you were a doctor!”

I still have difficulty with how rational and irrational women can be at the same time.

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
Guest

As I have mentioned in my videos when dealing with MGTOW men when they say that they do not want to have that burden of performance or that they do not feel the motivation to do anything anymore since they ditched women all together… We are built in such a way that performing or doing things that we find admirable or we have a distinct interest in, has a drive of its own. There really is pleasure that comes from doing something and achieving something or building something of your own. The fact of the matter is, as evolution has… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Just Getting It: The fact that orcs employ different strategies than do night elves does imply that the strategies of orcs are irrational.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@just getting it “I still have difficulty with how rational and irrational women can be at the same time.” One of the more important themes that I have tried to promote in comments and in regard to this statement is getting through the five Kubler-Ross stages of grief to acceptance. Try not to get stuck in denial, anger, bargaining or depression. Once you can accept how irrational women can be, then you can move on to interact with them in a more masterful fashion. This statement can be accepted as totally rational when seen from a red pill lens: “I… Read more »

Liz
Guest

Thanks for the response, SJF.
I’ve never read the book and I’m sure a lot of context is missing.

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Niko:

As I have noted before, there is a word for organisms that “just are” and have no burden of performance:

Vegetable.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Niko Choski “I tell this to men who are going through a period of not wanting to do anything, red pill malaise or whatever they might call it. The first step is understanding that as a man, you are built to do, to act, to achieve things and it’s why this WOW and multiplayer games get so many men addicted to them, but the same can be said about life. You move from one goal to the next and when you have no more goals set for you, you are kind of stuck.” This brings up once again the value… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“And that is because of a flood of dopamine in the limbic system.” While I understand the value of knowing mechanism, I’ve never really understood how, on a practical basis, discussing dopamine is in any way superior to simply saying, “This shit is enjoyable and will make you feel better.” Similarly, rather than discuss leptin and ghrelin signalling, I am more inclined to say, “I’m feeling a bit peckish, I could stand a bit of a knosh,” or, “Not now thanks, I’m really not that hungry. Wrap it up for later.” I fucking love science, but pseudo-scientism drives me almost… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

KFG,

“This shit is enjoyable and will make you feel better.”

You are entirely correct and stating a distinction without a difference.
The same principles of “how to get out of a rut” apply whether you understand the workings under the hood or not.

I see pseudo-scientism all the time. I too loathe it. I don’t think this concept qualifies as such (and I don’t believe evo-psych or behavioral psychology qualifies either, no matter what others say). And yes, I am personally ego-invested in scientism.

kfg
Guest
kfg

“You are entirely correct and stating a distinction without a difference.”

Q.E.D.

“I don’t think this concept qualifies as such . . .”

See how thoroughly the technical jargon has embedded itself into the colloquial? It’s become almost impossible even to see it.

SJF
Guest
SJF

It is fine if you want to call it primitive science of how the human brain works in order to suggest a prescription for how a man gets out of his rut, gets up off his ass and performs (for himself or for others).

SJF
Guest
SJF

Funny, I’ve Google searched Q.E.D many times based on your comments. I have to say that I still am quite ignorant of what it is. It doesn’t register for me. Perhaps neither does “dopamine” and “limbic system” for you.

Not trying to argue the point, as I respect your comments immensely, but if it helps another man understand “how to” or write his own script of how to get out of his rut, “that shit is enjoyable to me and makes me feel better”. Not every one “just gets it” the way KFG has for six decades.

redlight
Guest
redlight

r/TheRedPill is about lift, lift, lift, and AWALT

Yet this gets 94% upvoted:

You can be built, have the body and appearance and success, but as long as you act and behave like a beta, it’s all for nothing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3ypivd/there_is_no_easy_mode_i_was_a_built_college/

kfg
Guest
kfg

Quod Erat Demonstrandum; That which was to be shown.

“Not every one “just gets it” the way KFG has for six decades.”

No particular credit to me, when I was born dopamine had yet to be discovered in the brain, but its effects had been understood since the dawn of understanding.

SJF
Guest
SJF

“Quod Erat Demonstrandum; That which was to be shown.” KFG, do me a favor and describe how that applies to your opinion of my comments. I keep seeing the definition, but don’t understand how it applies. Am I saying something that has no basis for a red pill praxeology? For awareness and game? ” …but its effects had been understood since the dawn of understanding.” Understood. But there was still a fog cast over some of us greater beta, lesser alpha strivers (over the last five decades) by the FI and social conventions that some of us want to clear.… Read more »

Chester
Guest
Chester

@just getting it They are not irrational. They just have a different premise than you to build on. You are a contractor (without any additional info) implies you don’t have much money. She focuses on attraction or arousal. If she wants to fuck you, she does or else she ditches you. You are a doctor, that means big payday. Time to focus on the long con; build fantasies in your head, get you to “fall in love”; play the : ” I’m looking for a serious long term relationship card” ; tell you how much she loves you, yet play… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

” . . .do me a favor and describe how that applies to your opinion of my comments.” You said: “You are entirely correct and stating a distinction without a difference.” Whereas what I said was that there is no practical difference. You simply restated my point; Q.E.D. “It feels good,” and “dopamine was released” say essentially the same thing, only in the former it is stated as the common experience in the ancient vernacular which everyone understands, and in the latter it is stated as a chemical process in the less than 60 year old jargon of chemistry (which… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

Q.E.D. implies that the thing the speaker was trying to demonstrate has been demonstrated. It’s kinda like saying ‘case in point’ or ‘I rest my case,’ but more precisely/formally.

Liz
Guest

“You are a doctor, that means big payday. Time to focus on the long con; build fantasies in your head, get you to “fall in love”; play the : ” I’m looking for a serious long term relationship card” ; tell you how much she loves you, yet play on your emotions and feelings to deepen your emotional attachment and dependence to her.” All that…but also, putting out right away is a signal she probably has quite a past and has done that often. Which might diminish her value to him and make her a flight and/or cuckold risk. From… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@Niko “fear, and rejection of reality” That’s a lot of me. I’m tired of my own bullshit. @cave,roused It’s weird I’ll be ok. Just realizing how wonderful my trauma and life is. I have no rights I have little assist and I am willing to build my business in helping others perhaps by coming into the wonder and great power the mentorship and truth I tho blog posses. I will always have control over how I handle things I’ve never had control over. By understanding my attitude is all I can master to my advantage. It’s a gift I cherish.… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

Thanks KFG and Forge. In my ignorance I was actually thinking Q.E.D. was “That which has to be shown”, rather than as stated. “I am telling you to heed the warning of Orwell, that your language, and thus your thought, is under attack. In order to protect and foster understanding you must protect the language in which it can be expressed.” Got that. I have to admit to an intellectual upbringing in which I received and processed information well, but remained very much under-developed (relative to where I should be, not in an absolute measuring) in delivering info to others… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

Here is the critical point: ” . . . (which requires a mental translation into the former). . . ”

Remove that and the statements, from a psychological standpoint, cease to be equivalent. Where you formerly had a language to express your experienced state, you now only have a language to express your observed state.

You have been psycho-linguistically transformed into an ant in a lab, unable to even think of yourself as anything other.

We aren’t anywhere near that yet, but you can observe the culture moving in that direction at an accelerating rate.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@KFG.

Good, well expressed thoughts.

I perform very well within my experienced state–in my own head. I am relatively inadequate in expressing my observations (my under-developed faults in expression) because I presume I got caught up in the culture moving in that direction at an accelerating rate. If we had a nickel for every time we were told (or knew darn well) to demonstrate, don’t explicate……….

just getting it
Guest
just getting it

Hey Chester,Liz,

I get all that – you’ve explained what I was talking about when I said rational.

Then in day to day conversation said girl will act like an airhead; irrational.

Together they are like the proverbial iron fist in a velvet glove.

Also it’s kind of funny that a doctor has to disguise himself to get uncommitted sex.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11
Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
Guest

@SJF Absolutely, the dopaminergic pathways in the brain get activated following exercise, achievements and whatever a person may find pleasurable such as music etc. You need multiples sources of it, to maintain balance. But of course we should not forget that the same thing applies when you engage with a woman and pairbond. I wrote an article/have a video on the biology of monogamy explaining the differences and the activation of certain pathways in the brain based on the vasopressin receptors in the brain and the length of their promoter sequence. What I mean in plain terms is that there… Read more »

Shiva
Guest

@rugby “My independence was hard to gain even at 27 it’s hard to go back to the house I was in. They don’t know me and keep trying to force me into a beta religious provider with conviction.” If you start earning more and doing good for yourself, they will go more subtle in their approach. If your frame is good, you DHV and are sure of yourself, they will drop it in some time. Worked on my family circle. All the felines of my extended family now care only about not annoying me. I don’t see them nagging or… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

“The substitution of science jargon for colloquial speech where such is not needed to foster understanding, in order to give simple concepts an air of scientific authority, is the language of the Marxists, the eugenicists, the transhumanists, the feminists, the “masculinity is a chemical imbalance in the brain”ists, and all of their totalitarian ilk who seek to bring us into the scientific utopia.” Excellent point. I feel like I read something similar from GK Chesterton back when. An eccentric intellect, but the one thing he held sacred with all the power of his verve and vim was the importance of… Read more »

Scribblerg
Guest
Scribblerg

@Shiva – Bad timing. I’m in NYC hanging out with my my musical partner, and we played last night for some friends. All my original music, accompanied by a great guitarist. My work was greeted warmly, and the small group loves it and asks for more, so we do so. I get the usual look of shock when they find out I freestyled the song they loved so much, and comments about gigging more or getting recorded, blah blah blah. I create and perform music, and also have a lots of writing experience. You presume much with your tone though,… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

@ Forge the Sky. Thanks. I actually did start reading a book of fiction yesterday “Pretty Girls” by Karin Slaughter. (does a fictional book about psychopathic killers qualify?) I appreciate the suggestion. But I’m skeptical as to the implementation by reading fiction. I have actually read a shit-load of fiction in my life. But it seems to be a preference and personality type–not preferring fiction these days. Rather than an inability to dream, think and express stories with emotion, I submit it is merely a preference. Just like I’m pretty sure I’ve resolved the issue of me having autistic traits… Read more »

Henry Zora
Guest

To complement my previous message, the only costumer comment you have in the Japanese Amazon website is very positive. It says “This book will change your life. You will rethink everything you thought you knew about sex and women” (rough translation). I’m sure you can be much more popular there, Rollo:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Rational-Male-English-Rollo-Tomassi-ebook/dp/B00FK901R8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451516594&sr=8-1&keywords=rational+male

Looking for Zion
Guest
Looking for Zion

@Wildman @caveclown I appreciate your views and dissections of the gas-lighting article. I think Wild Man hit the nail on the head: Women as a matter of course gas-light their men. Just ask any guy who’s been in a years-long, live-in relationship or marriage. Especially if he, like myself, was blue pill and then had his eyes opened by the red pill. I didn’t even comment on the article to my wife, and she didn’t ask me what I thought. A month ago I would’ve said it’s a pretty good description of what she’s been doing to me for the… Read more »

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

“OK, I called it upthread:
http://www.newsarama.com/27360-george-lucas-calls-disney-white-slavers-in-purchase-of-star-wars.html
Damn I hate being right all the time.”

Lucas is a smart man, he knows his legacy is being (has been) destroyed.

He says he does not regret selling to Disney, but I would guess that is not true. Sure he made what, $1 billion on the sale? But legacy is worth more than money.

Han Solo is one of the best characters a red pill man can watch!

Such a shame.

SJF
Guest
SJF

Merely a simple shit test for Lucas. He owned 100% of Lucasfilms and sold it to Disney for $4 billion.

And he’s still only 5’6” tall.

I think he will manage.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

“And he’s still only 5’6” tall.”

lol!

stuffinbox
Guest
stuffinbox

Disney stocks are forecast to devalue do to large investments in an obsolete cable system.sell sell sell

Johnycomelately
Guest
Johnycomelately

Burden of performance for attraction or arousal? Men don’t live in a biological vacuum, there’s an environment out there forcing and creating new adaptations. Given the FI is redefining the meaning of marriage and LTRs, is it unreasonable to presume that the burden of performance will mirror that change? Doesn’t the effort match the reward? Be your best, wish you were better, pump iron, develop social proof, learn the game, hit the bars (ala YaReally), devote your life to learning about women, become entertaining, travel, LTRs are game on hard mode, become interesting, fuck as many women as possible, spin… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

What if this was Star Wars
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wv33e0TyL6M
@Rollo
“But in divorcing themselves from that feral nature removes the motivators to want achieve greater things.”
Everyday I wake up I think about this and how much your work has place this as a main goal to achieve.
Spoke with a few buddy’s of mine an they braught up success.
I’m grateful to learn more on improving and less on complaining. My faults are many but my experience and growth is constant. I would wager that avoiding porn and masturbation and dancing and socializing has helped as well.

Jafyk
Guest
Jafyk

Rollo, thanks for sharing the links. Especially the first set. I do realize that in today’s feminized Western society that any law formed to punish behavior will mostly be applied in harsher measure to men. However, my issue is with the second link (the bullying one) you posted. It may be helpful if you presented an argument as to why you see this as a problem. While this can be a double edged sword…the other edge is that there will be people who will for example abuse a partner, seize their passport in other to prevent escape. Please expand further… Read more »

IAS
Guest
IAS

@kfg : you are underselling vegetables. I think they are a great example of the burden of performance, arguably even more so than male humans.

Many (if not most) animals have a parasitic relation with vegetables (although there are a significant number of symbiotic, or complementary ones if you like).

Many vegetables could survive without animals, whereas we and many other animals depend on vegetables to survive.

Vegetables, including trees, have to perform to survive. Their performance is just often on different timescales than ours. We even use “Be the oak” as advice here.

Jafyk
Guest
Jafyk

I am not sure where would be appropriate to post this. So, I’ll suggest it here. As a Graphic Designer when I think of the manosphere it’s reminds me of things like the school of Bauhaus, the Swiss designers, the de stijl movement etc that I learned of in history of Graphic Design. I’m also reminded of the popular posters and design works produced by these groups. In the same way I think the same should exist for the Red Pill. It has become a movement. My suggestion is for the writers here among us to write some kind of… Read more »

Chester
Guest
Chester

I guess we are back to my main point of contention with Rollo. He seems to imply from his answer to Shiva that when the sexual component is removed from a man’s life, there is no motivation or drive to achieve anything great in life. Whatever a man wants for himself is up to him to decide. Whatever he SHOULD want is up to nobody else but him to define. The loss of motivation that I personally experienced came from the fact that I, like many men, had been brainwashed into believing in the myths of the one and the… Read more »

stuttie
Guest

this is what red pill means to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT7NBUdqUUo

happy new year all

Niko Choski (@nikochoski)
Guest

@ Rollo In actual fact the best known MGTOW: barbarossa, Stardusk, Spetsnaz who I am friends with, do not endorse separation from women but propose the free choice in making your choices after focusing to yourself first. I find barbarossa’s and Spetsnaz message very similar to yours about focusing on yourself and promoting interaction with humanity. (Spetsnaz video on this rejection that occurs in the community, I invite you to watch it, one of the few people that actually deals with male emotion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIixU-sl5oE) Stardusk has found he works better “alone”, no idea why, but he is happier like that… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@IAS: I was wondering when you would come along, because I’m perfectly aware of what you say. Nonetheless the rhetorical point stands. You have the burden of performance to make tools because you have hands and close range stereoscopic vision that allows you to make tools. You have to chase down your food because you have legs and feet. All the things you must do are matched by the things you can do and ultimately to hate the burden of performance is to hate all life above the level of monocellular cyanobacteria just floating along in solution. You cannot separate… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Chester: “I guess we are back to my main point of contention with Rollo . . . You don’t get mad at tiger for being a tiger . . . Knowing this truth, you can do whatever you want with it.” Right. So; where is your point of contention? @Niko: “The phenomenon of rejection of their very nature, is indeed a subsection of the community. I do not understand it and I worry about it.” See my comment to IAS above. I have my problems with the likes of Aaron Clarey, but the criticism that many men in the MGTOW… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
Guest

Rollo, What did you call re: Star Wars? Must’ve missed that. Disney bought the franchise for $4 billion, or something like that. They need to protect their investment and grow their brand through any means possible. You cash in on the brand by making a nostalgic fuck-fest like the Force Awakens. Should men conquer the world, their environment, achieve great things and then come kneel in front of a woman and present all that as an offering at her altar for some sex and companionship? I understand why some people might want to have kids of their own but NOBODY… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Should men conquer the world, their environment . . .”

When Caesar conquered Gaul, Gaul, that is to say everything that made it Gallic, was destroyed.

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Jafyk “These will help push the red pill ideology out there since it’s a harder conversation to have with the blue pill public.” Red pill awareness and game is praxeology. Not an ideology. Praxeology is a logic based philosophy about how human beings act and react. (“If a condition holds, the following should be done.” Ideologies are belief systems which hold up ideals – moral, ethical, social – as standards by which to live or guide us (Marxism and Feminism). Secondly, red pill awareness and game are not ready for prime time–meaning a sociological revolution. It is best practice to… Read more »

Chester
Guest
Chester

@ A Definite Beta Guy, I get your point. And it does make sense to me now.

I guess we were not looking at it from the same perspective. I was looking at it from the perspective of highly successful people.

The frontiersmen that you are referring to, didn’t have much to loose anyway; so it would be a decent deal for them.

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Chester:

Those frontiersman not uncommonly had at least two wives, one in the trading village and one on the frontier, and BEYOND!

I am curious as to why you seem to distinguish the frontiersmen from highly successful people. It makes me wonder how you define success.

I personally would define it as “reaching your goal.”

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

“Those frontiersman not uncommonly had at least two wives, one in the trading village and one on the frontier, and BEYOND!”

Source?

stuffinbox
Guest
stuffinbox

“There is one more kid that will never go to school never get to grow up never get yo be cool” Go feral man “keep on rockin in the free world”

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Cave Clown: “Source?”

A lifetime of reading, but you can start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer#Marriage

bnon
Guest
bnon

>but a man should want more for himself as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad.

I don’t really know where this moral imperative comes from? Does it lead to a happier life?

Badpainter
Guest
Badpainter

bnon – “I don’t really know where this moral imperative comes from? Does it lead to a happier life?”

It leads to not living in caves, having a reliable food supply, and ultimately flush toilets. The morality is self evident, if not a happier life certainly a better life.

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Bad Painter: The image of morality:

http://www.humanillnesses.com/photos/obesity-2295.jpg

Badpainter
Guest
Badpainter

@kfg

Ha! Touché.

I counter with:

(Insert pic of starving third world indig which I’m to lazy to find and post here)

kfg
Guest
kfg

He is the other side of the same coin. Without a surplus of food, he never would have come into existence in the first place. He starves because there is sufficient food to starve him.

Stop sending him food from where there is a surplus and it’s true that he will die a few years before he would have otherwise, but the starvation will cease.

Badpainter
Guest
Badpainter

@kfg

But for me the question is whether the personal risk of gluttony is a greater negative than personal risk of starvation. I’ll risk the gluttony. As a former far ass I know how to mitigate that risk and why it exists.

As well I think the risk of gluttony within society is more than compensated for by the existence of flush toilets. Indoor plumbing can only be a problem when the food scarcity problem is, in aggregate, solved.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@kfg
“You cannot separate yourself from your burden of performance because your burden of performance defines what you are.”
It’s a truth, a profound truth.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf2TpWsPvgI
Half my old demons come from thinking I could escape this. I can’t and I won’t.
http://www.theuncool.com/books/conversations-with-wilder/wilder-excerpt/

kfg
Guest
kfg

When I think back over the peak moments of life, many of them occurred when I was living toilet free.

Conversely, many of the miserable moments occurred specifically because I was socially constrained to only shit where there was a flush toilet.

I’m afraid I don’t find your morality evident at all.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

Kfg

Custer? Not really a good example, as he is more of a celebrity.

My family is from that area of the country and I have been to the spot where he was killed many, many times.

Rumor around those parts is he also had a baby mommy in the Oglala Lakota Sioux and Yankton Sioux tribes as well.

kfg
Guest
kfg

“The laws for statutory rape are general laws that should be applicable to both sexes equally . . .”

I don’t find that morality evident either (and within my lifetime neither did much of anybody else). It smacks of believing that even the plumbing is the same.

I do, however, believe in Rule #4, good and hard.

Badpainter
Guest
Badpainter

@ kfg

“I’m afraid I don’t find your morality evident at all.”

I’ll get over it.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

If the law was equal than men would just have to say they were drunk too!

Which is why it is not equal.

Posted that drunk rape poster pic to my FB page, with the comment, “equality”

My cousin, “you can’t rape if you don’t have a dick”

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Cave Clown: ” . . . he is more of a celebrity.” That is why he is a quick and easy example. If you want to find reports of all the explorers and fur traders who had similar arrangements, you’ll have to go to the library and start reading all the accounts of barely known explorers and fur traders. The arrangements were not recorded in the town hall; in town they were considered sin and known only to a few men of like mind. They were only recorded, at the origins, in the tales of the frontier, the oral history.… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11
kfg
Guest
kfg

@Bad Painter: “I’ll get over it.”

I don’t care whether you do or don’t. That’s your problem. The question to me is, will I?

“Self-evident” moralities (“God is on our side,” or “We’re the government, and we’re here to help”) have a nasty tendency to plough under all those who can’t seem to see them.

Badpainter
Guest
Badpainter

kfg – “The question to me is, will I?” Not my problem. That’s your burden. I have my own problems for which I expect you to care not at all. I’m gonna call us even in that respect. In the context of bnon’s original question I see a moral imperative in masculine creativity. The results my be good or bad or both for the creator or others, but the imperative exists. The immoral element is to deny the imperative. Which I think is what is the core of Rollo’s criticism of MGTOW. By actively refusing the biological imperative of being… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

I have no problem with the imperative. I only have a problem with your assignment of morality to it.

I have an imperative to breath. It is not good. It is not evil. It just is.
Were I to find not breathing evil I would find myself in conflict with the non-breathers, who I otherwise am perfectly happy to let go their own way, perhaps even help along their road now and again.

stuffinbox
Guest
stuffinbox

@kfg
I lost my virginity at14 to a16 yo girl she initiated this and made me her gigelo with gifts of cigarettes ,bike etc.If this had been common knowledge as it would be today i would have been charged w/ statutory rape.
As a friend of mine was when caught with a willing participant.Around the same time and place

Fat bottom girls do make the rockin world go round not complaining about that But the laws are definitely not equal. TMI

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@Badpainter “In the context of bnon’s original question I see a moral imperative in masculine creativity. The results my be good or bad or both for the creator or others, but the imperative exists. The immoral element is to deny the imperative. Which I think is what is the core of Rollo’s criticism of MGTOW. By actively refusing the biological imperative of being a man there is the risk of also failing to fulfill a man’s creative imperative. Likewise an extreme focus on sex may also cause a man to fail his creative imperative.” Creativity is to me the way… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@stuffinbox: “. . . the laws are definitely not equal.”

They never have been, because they never can be. All equalizing them can do is create injustice, because men and women are not the same.

Applying Rule #4 rams the injustice down the throats of those who intended the injustice to function only in one direction.

Striver
Guest
Striver

Hypergamy is a fact. It is also a fact that men have always pushed against it. With no hypergamy a man would probably just hook up with the chick next door. Little or no drama, you bonded with the available female for life. But we wouldn’t have all of these nice things because there wouldn’t be incentive for men to work that hard. So men work hard in response to hypergamy. But when hypergamy is unchecked, it becomes an issue of throwing all men’s work down a giant sinkhole. Women will always try to extract resources, but with hypergamy unchecked… Read more »

bluepillprofessor
Guest

@walawala: “Here’s a scenario I’ve faced with angry girls. They passive-aggressively try to disrupt projects or events I’ve created by not showing up when they’ve promised to help, by agreeing to help and then pushing various buttons and when I react use that to threaten not to follow through on some critical element to a project.” This is not a new script and sounds EXACTLY how women treat sex in most marriages. Passive aggressively disrupt your attempts, refuse to show up when they promised to do so, then pushing your buttons until you react so they have an excuse not… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Striver:

Or, perhaps, you could calibrate your definition of “better.”

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

@Jayfyk

Re: “In the same way I think the same should exist for the Red Pill. It has become a movement. My suggestion is for the writers here among us to write some kind of history of the red pill that will encompass the Manosphere, PUAs, red pill blogs, the guys behind the movements( David DeAngelo, Pook, Rollo, Roosh, Dalrock etc), terminologies, etc. Better one of us writing our own history than someone out there.”

http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/no-mans-land/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Manosphere-New-Hope-Masculinity-ebook/dp/B00D74DQ8E

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

Heh, I’m gonna translate kfg so his points aren’t so Gandalfian to everyone. First, regarding inequality in laws. Suppose you passed a law dictating that each citizen could only have sex one time per month. Who would be primarily impacted by this? Consider that men have a much stronger and more continuous libido than women, generally speaking. This law disproportionately affects a) most men; and b) women paired with a (perceptively) hypergamously optimal man, as such a pairing tends to make her libido shoot through the roof. Second, regarding morality. Badpainter, kfg isn’t implying that you should adopt his preferences… Read more »