Ladders & Snakes

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All men are created equal. What you do from there is up to you.

Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but always take the credit

Use the wisdom, knowledge, and legwork of other people to further your own cause. Not only will such assistance save you valuable time and energy, it will give you an aura of efficiency and speed. In the end your helpers will be forgotten and you will be remembered. Never do yourself what others can do for you.

When I was first introduced the the 48 Laws of Power the seventh was the one I had the most trouble accepting. I should really say I have trouble ’employing’ this law, because I’ve spent my entire life as an artist in some capacity and I’m very particular about the integrity and character of what it is I create. Obviously we have rights management and plagiarism laws to ensure against the more blatant ‘stealing’ of ideas, but a lot of what accounts for taking unwarranted credit occurs in more nuanced social situations.

It’s usually in these social circumstances that the average person makes use of Law 7. It’s hardly a law at all considering how naturally humans will use it. In a purely ethical sense it’s kind of a no-brainer; don’t assume credit that you’re undeserving of, but bending the perceptions of what we base our estimates on is where the real art comes in.

On a personal level, my investment in what I create and how that creation is received is what matters most to me. I understand the want for a quick reward, but I’m more concerned with a cheap imitation of what I’ve created debasing the quality and effort it took to create it. For instance, I’ve spent the better part of my career creating products and brands for people with a lot of money who really had no real investment in what it was I was making for them. All they wanted was a “product” that they could promote and sell.

Naturally the quality and integrity of that brand or product had to be something they could get behind (the horse must at least look like it could win), but not be held too personally accountable should that product end up being less than ideal. That’s a nice way of saying most salesmen I’ve known love a widget if it’s something that sells, but they’re never really on the hook for if it sucks – that accountability rests with the creator.

While we were dining after the Man in Demand conference we had discussion about exactly this dynamic. I make an effort to keep my business endeavors as businesslike as possible, but there are brands and things I create that I will personally invest myself into. I have to be very careful of this because it took me a long time (and more than a few failed attempts) to develop the discernment to know what’s worth putting myself into. However, it is especially satisfying for me to travel to another country and see one of my bottles in the duty-free stores at the airport and then be at a bar & grill somewhere on vacation and see one on the backbar.

I explained to the guys that what I create (and own) are not “products” to me. I dislike that term in that sense. I understand the utility of that word to salesmen; product is an easy unit of measure, but to the person creating that thing it’s a measure of the quality of their idea. To refer to that creation as a product impersonalizes that creation and allows the seller to remain at arms distance should the creation be wildly popular or a horrible failure.

That pride of ownership or the abandoning of it is a convenience for someone only invested in promoting that thing, but on some level it is never really theirs with the same responsibility as the one who created it. So ultimately the noncommittal position of selling, promoting, endorsing, etc. becomes an arrangement of convenience since the creator’s idea is where the ‘product’s’ strengths lie – and also where the real accreditation should too.

I’ve occasionally been accused by the ignorant on Twitter of being dependent on The Rational Male for my revenue. Most of my regular readers know what I do for a living and understand why that’s silly, but I don’t think it’s any real secret that what I write here and in the books is something very personal to me. The Rational Male has always been something I’ve invested myself in for obvious reasons, but I’ve always resisted turning it into a brand per se. There wont be any TRM T-Shirts coming in the foreseeable future.

I’m proud to be responsible for what I do here and I will never be beholden to making what I create into a ‘product’ for others to sell. One of the best things about being in the position I am is being anti-fragile enough to write what I believe is important while still keeping myself solvent on what I do apart from it. This allows me a much greater freedom than needing to write something to stay solvent.

Bargain Debasement

You’ll have to forgive my intro here, but it got me to thinking about a larger point I had in mind about how and why a man invests himself in various endeavors in life. I’ve worked hard to get to a point in life where I can say my personal successes (and failures) are my own and not the result of others’ funding or some fortunate dispensation, but rather based on the strength of ideas and responsibly owning them as the creator. Yet another reason I have a problem with Law 7; for as much as you may gain by employing it you rarely develop the insights that failing of your own accord teaches you. Experience teaches harsh, but it teaches best.

I think one of the reasons men find the popularized, feminist, social convention of ‘male privilege‘ so disingenuous is because we want to be appreciated for the sacrifices and perseverance needed to even have what looks like a meager, hand-out, kind of privilege. An atmosphere of default privilege debases what men have honestly invested themselves in. I’ve always held that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate their feminine-primary reality, but that’s not to discount men’s want to still be appreciated for them.

Whether that’s manifested in financial wealth, personal freedom, status or earned wisdom there’s a fundamental want for an appreciation that is rarely ever forthcoming. One reason I believe many men have a self-fulfilling definition of what it is to be Alpha is because they feel they’ve earned that identification through hard work and playing by a set of rules everyone else should, but get frustrated when their efforts go unappreciated, if not outright exploited. Again, Law 7. It’s galling to see others rewarded for exploiting what you think should be appreciated.

There’s a subset of MGTOW reader/writers who question every man’s motive for doing what it is he does thinking that appeasing women is at the root of every effort. Nothing is a genuinely inspired passion if the end result is women’s affectations. I covered this in Crisis of Motive, but what exactly is a genuine motive in that sense? If the byproduct result of my genuine interests is having sex with gorgeous women and/or a beautiful wife and a couple of well adjusted kids should that then discredit my unique talents and interests in what I do?

What if, after all a man does, he seeks an appreciation that will only rarely be unsolicited on his part? It’s one thing to command respect; it’s quite another to demand it.

Institutionalized Success

In this sense I think what is most egregious about the present state of marriage is that, for the greater part, all of the personal equity a man invests in himself over the course of his lifetime is only a divorce settlement away from being halved for him (if not more so). A man’s personal equity (not to be confused with relational equity) is only one false rape allegation away from ruin. This is the institutionalization of Law 7: that a woman can largely and legally get a man to do all the work and then take (at least half) the credit from his own success – or at least that’s the social expectation.

Granted, a woman can also be on the hook for her lack of character judgement should she pair with a man who becomes a burden to her. There are rare instances when a woman may find herself financially beholden to a bad choice in marriage, but then it’s a situation of that man’s genuine achievements in life and usually an inability to take his burden of performance and make the most of it. For the most part, the role of support falls to the man in societal expectations; women and feminized men are the ones supported.

In fact, it’s a point of shame for men to be supported in such a fashion. Whether that’s warranted of not, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves than what they started with. A needed provisioning from women only puts his achievements’ validity in question. Like it or not, men should avoid the perception of themselves not pulling their own weight.

Doing More

A while back I was asked why the Burden of Performance should be called a “burden” at all. Should it not be a “challenge” or a “opportunity”? All optimist semantics aside, it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.

I’m sure equalist critics will want to cast women into the same performance role, but in a uniquely male sense, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves. To be a ‘man’ is to produce in excess of what you consume – thus having the potential to support a family, an extended family, ensure security, give back to his community and/or reinvest that excess in greater endeavors or passions. While it may be part of the Feminine Imperative’s media campaign to popularize the character of the Strong Independent Woman® there is still room for women to expect the best out of a man while being provided for herself. In other words women have both the option to strive for independence while also retaining the option to be provided for by her husband or an LTR. And failing either of these, they retain an institutional right to Law 7.

Men must be independent resource providers, they must make more of themselves than what they began with, independent of dispensations or special privilege. There is no safety net, no other socially acceptable option to be provided for and still retain his being definitively a ‘man’. One of the hesitations I have with endorsing the Red Pill idea of going ‘Monk Mode’ is less about the isolation and more about the motivation men need to find within themselves to better themselves.

We look down on men who are dependent on women. Whether that’s financially, emotionally or physically, there is no option for dependence. One of the primary complaints professional, educated, independent women bemoan is their inability to pair off with a man of ‘like’ (or above) status. They’ll make euphemisms to characterize the men who would be their ‘equals’ who wont date them, but what they fail to acknowledge is the fundamental, root level truth of men’s burden of performance. For all the high-minded hopes of equalism, women’s Hypergamy still wants to filter for both sexual and provider acceptability in men.

Back in 2012 I based a post on Creative Intelligence from a study about how improvisational skills and creativity factored into a woman’s Hypergamous considerations. I wont quote it in length here, but suffice it to say that there is a measurable difference in how women perceive men with a trained or innate ability to improvise in, and overcome, times of adversity. As might be expected a man with a proven capacity to produce more than he consumes – especially when he’s had to come back from failure or misfortune – tends to be a more attractive mate choice that the man who chances into his own affluence.

Bear in mind that attraction and arousal are different sides of the Hypergamy coin (AF/BB), but many cross-cultural studies suggest that a capacity for creative, innovative, adaptive intelligence has been an evolutionarily selected-for socio-sexual trait in men – much less so in women. That’s important for the MGTOW critic to remember, it’s not as simple as a feminine-primary social order dictating men being slaves to their burden of performance. Just as gender is primarily biological, and not a social construct, neither is women’s evolved, Hypergamous sexual filtering.

Filters

Now, with the evolutionary basis of attraction in mind, it’s also important to consider that in our evolutionary past women evolved to take calculated risks in optimizing their Hypergamous sexual selectivity. The utility such Red Pill concepts as social proof, dread, Game, amused mastery, etc. are evidenced because they work with (or sometimes against) this Filter.

From The Curse of Potential:

Hypergamy wants a pre-made Man. If you look at my now infamous comparative SMP curve, one thing you’ll notice is the peak SMV span between the sexes.

Good looking, professionally accomplished, socially matured, has Game, confidence, status, decisive and Just Gets It when it comes to women. Look at any of the commonalities of terms you see in any ‘would like to meet’ portion of a woman’s online dating profile and you’ll begin to understand that hypergamy wants optimization and it wants it now. Because a woman’s capacity to attract her hypergamous ideal decays with every passing year, her urgency demands immediacy with a Man embodying as close to that ideal as possible in the now.

Hypergamy takes a big risk in betting on a man’s future potential to become (or get close to being) her hypergamous ideal, so the preference leans toward seeking out the man who is more made than the next.

The problem with this scenario as you might guess is that women’s SMV depreciates as men’s appreciates — or at least should appreciate. As I outlined above, the same hypergamy that constantly tests and doubts the fitness of a man in seeking its security also limits his potential to consistently satisfy it.

As I’ve mentioned in many prior posts, Hypergamy demands assurances. In fact so paramount is that need for Hypergamous certainty that women have evolved peripheral awareness to be sensitive to psychological and socio-sexual cues that confirm a man’s Hypergamous acceptability to her. Furthermore, so important is this need of assurance that in a society founded on feminine social primacy, the Feminine Imperative will legislate legal institutions to prevent men from misrepresenting themselves as a more optimal Hypergamous choice – as well as legislate penalties that insure women against both Hypergamous fraud and less than optimal mating choices.

As you might guess, the development and evolution of Game is one such psycho-social contingency men refine and use to workaround this Hypergamous filtering; and one that the imperative is still making efforts to restrict. However this doesn’t discount the way men have, in the past, built themselves up based on both social expectations, but also genuine interests and passions. Naturally, if a man is the genuine article and as a byproduct attracts women as a result of it, that might be preferable to ‘faking it till you’re making it’ – but if that’s the route you go be sure that you do in fact ‘make it’ because it’s what you feel passionate about.

Warnings

The primary reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to help men avoid having women’s institutionalization of Law 7 ruin their long term personal efforts and achievements. Many critics want to lock horns with me as to when a man’s Peak SMV generally occurs in life. That’s fine, but whether or not you agree with my accuracy in this regard the fact remains that it takes much more concentrated, long term effort to reach that peak than women’s fast-burn peak SMV. I don’t just mean this in terms of his professional status, but also his maturity, his acquired wisdom, his judgement of others’ character, the lessons learn from the bruises of his failures and near misses.

All of this requires an investment in oneself that simply the having of resources handed to you will never satisfy. That personal investment in oneself, as it should, amounts to a lot of internalized equity – an equity that will never be appreciated by women whose Hypergamy is looking for a pre-made man. Hypergamy doesn’t care about the effort and perseverance required to achieve the status you (should) enjoy at your SMV peak.

I’ll be the first to admit that when it comes to short term sexual selection, the most wanton sex I had was at the time in my life when I was the poorest. As an underemployed semi-rockstar I used hit it with the best of them, and from a purely sexual perspective, it’s true, criminal and Alpha cads will still fuck 80% of women. But there’s more to the worth of a man than just his notch count. Sexual experience constitutes a very important measure of that, but a man should want more for himself as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad.

Life experience and the benefits that a man should draw from it are personally valuable. In fact, men feel the equity of these efforts are so valuable that men will commit suicide at 5 times the rate of women; and in particular between the ages of 45-49. Why do you suppose that is? What assurances of long term security does the common man have for himself? What is he faced with when the plan he sets forth for himself in his life is destroyed in one precarious instance?

Once again, using the male deductive logic, it may seem a better option for him to hit the reset button than to be faced with having his life’s equity, his largest investment, his creation, stolen from him. This is a graphic illustration of men’s Burden of Performance, a burden women simply don’t face.

300 comments

  1. When you can neg and compliment your wife/GF in the same line without thinking about it, then you’ve internalized the Game.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q52yy8APHLU
    Game to me is the a counter attack to the feminen imperative. Something to use in exchange for the harsh truths that almost destroy once you attempt to internalize them.
    I really appreciate approaching the world in a manner of curiously glee that dosnt hover over past hardships. But the world I live once me to build an empire. Something from nothing. I’m reading about billy wilder and he reads and breaths redpill truths in all his affairs I think he knew game an used it in hollywood to embrace and enjoy the irony of human nature least on the context of force feed social rule making.
    What I’m starting to learn is that it’s ok to break past my trauma knowing I may make the same mistakes but that with an essay such as this I can grew into a dream that’s raw and real as much as me.
    I’ve never been able to forgive myself for thinking I should apologize or wanting to get my dick wet.
    When I see myself know I leaped hills in compared to my old self.

  2. Wildman, I think kfg is gently implying you’re not gonna armchair quarterback this one. Dive hardcore into biology, neurology, psychology, or mathematics. Become a world expert at some sub-sub-subfield therein. Create new knowledge. Then you will have contributed your pebble to the prospective pyramid.

    Otherwise sit back and enjoy the view from your own two eyes instead of through a microscope. If you’re sharp you can get a pretty good impression of the overall patterns of things.

  3. Damn this is one of the most RP comprehensive pieces I’ve read. Everything is touched upon here and it all comes full circle to show the whole birds eye view. I love this. Thank you for your hard work sir it makes my life make sense, makes order from the struggles I deal with as a man.

  4. “When you can neg and compliment your wife/GF in the same line without thinking about it, then you’ve internalized the Game.”

    I’m far from that, but hopefully not as far as I think. Can’t logic your way through a relationship with a woman, just does not work.

    Rugby,

    “I’ve never been able to forgive myself for thinking I should apologize or wanting to get my dick wet.”

    This and other comments on this post…you doing alright man?

    Re: Gas lighting

    All women and children gas light to an extent, because gas lighting is conflict, guilt, and shame avoidance behavior. Lots of men do it too, especially to their bosses and wives/gf’s.

    Spend 5 minutes in a room with a BPD women, and you’ll see what real gas lighting is.

    Best way to avoid gaslighting with women? Refuse to engage them in arguments.

    Gas lighting works so well against men, because it is irrational. We attempt to apply logic to the argument, when the woman uses feelz instead.

    Common gaslights:

    that’s not what i said
    that’s not what i meant
    you are remembering wrong
    you are taking that out of context
    you are assuming bad intentions
    you really think i meant it that way?
    do you really think that low of me?
    i would know what i did or did not say
    you must hate me if you thought that’s what i meant
    you did [whatever] first
    you always twist what i say
    i love you, why would i say something like that?

    All of these are bullshit, all are irrational re-frames AGAINST logic.

  5. @Caveclown
    I’m fine just angry about my short comings and attempts to change old parts of myself.

  6. Rugby,

    Keep your chin up dude.

    Rollo,

    I’ve seen several comments disappear and then reappear, or change order with other comments. Fyi

    Blaxs droid comment and rugby s angry comment have 3 times switched positions …

  7. @CaveClown – yeah I would agree that on one level gas-lighting is about conflict, guilt, and shame avoidance behavior (i.e. – agency-refusal). But I think it goes well beyond that though, with the particular way women try to form an opinion about what is true (reality-testing) – it is by way of consensus, and it is more of a feel’s-based consensus. How would that play-out initially, in the presence of some rationality? Like gas-lighting, of the type that is more than “I didn’t say that” – but more of the type that “your rational analysis of the agreed facts, is full of shit because me and my sisters think that your feeling-function is maladjusted, so you can’t see straight”.

    It seems a good way to beat this is with supreme confidence, – an internal frame you adopt with yourself in the exchange, which spoken out loud might sound something like – “I’m in no way deficient by way of quality (but perhaps by way of quantity and subtly), feeling-wise, I guess I can assume you’re feelings are hurt a little by way of you implying such, but I didn’t hurt your feelings, the hurt is probably something playing within yourself, I hope you do feel better, and back to the matter – I know I’m right – I’m not changing my view because it is right, and I don’t really care that much if you disagree, disagree if you want, as is your privilege, doesn’t mean much to me with respect to the truth though, and I am free of feeling except a sense of calmness around this exchange, and I am outcome independent with respect to changing your mind – you have agency – make-up your own mind.”.

    Women don’t seem to have that calm type of confidence available within themselves so much, around issues that require a rational approach (which are most issues actually), so women tend to unconsciously desire this. They seem to come to your side soon enough if you maintain this frame (and eventually seem to just start deferring to your frame), and if they don’t oh well. Maybe that’s not the woman for you to hang with then.

    The wrong thing to do IMO is argue too much about the difference of opinion (that’s been my problem in the past – I have expected rationality – as the other party upholding their end of the dynamic, fair-exchange-style, so I can enjoy another person’s insights too, but with women, I usually don’t get that, and it has pissed me off in the past, or caused me to get bored or frustrated, and not provide enough attention other than sexual). I’m trying to get beyond being pissed off, and just let things flow, from a perspective of calm confidence in myself, my abilities, my aptitude, my convictions, and my weaknesses. The interesting thing is, with certain bright women (and women are bright in a completely different way than men), once they trust you like this, you can ask for their opinion on something (as long as you brought it up within your frame), and if they like you, they try to give you what you want – an insight. Some of these insights I have gotten over the past few months have blown me away – said casually by the woman, usually at some time (even weeks) later after I have inquired, not attaching any real importance to the delivery at all, but if you listen there are golden nuggets of wisdom there – not coming from rationality it seems, but being wise about feelings I suppose. This has made me happy (I am of average selfishness I think, so I do want a fair exchange with the people I deal with). Women do need the confident frame of a man for outer world issues though (without it they easily get so mixed up in their thinking – too feeling orientated for too complicated of outer world issues). But feeling-function-wise, that is so much less about the abstraction of agentic powers, women seem to be dealing with a semi-conscious soup of subtle flavors of feeling that is just too captivating to someone like me. I have to watch myself with this too (I have allowed myself to go too deep into that realm too in the past, guided by a woman, to my eventual detriment, because I’m out of my depth and will blunder into danger).

    I am not certain about all this yet. I think the way for me is to continue to develop enough trust with the women I continue to get to know, so that they will continue the process of deferring to my rational frame, and this eventuality will then allow me some more insights into their feeling-frame (as long as I press on this just sparingly with the impetus for such occurring within my frame, and only after they have deferred). If this indeed is the way it is going to play out for me, then I can finally avoid the jadedness (because the effort would all be worth it then, getting insights I couldn’t get otherwise). Not all women are bright enough feeling-wise to provide this to me it seems. Women with a proclivity for the arts seem to have this ability in spades though (but they are also the ones who are the most irrational).

    I’m still trying to proceed, albeit very carefully and rather slowly. I know you guys hate that word – egalitarian – but that is what I mean by it – find a way to have mutual respect and appreciation with people (not upper-hand or lower-hand but even-hand). With women, I still think this is possible in the way I have described (but hey – I’m an idealist, so I tend to err on that side – time will tell).

  8. Wild man,

    What you described would never ever work. Not ever. Don’t think so much.

    Its really simple.

    You cannot argue rationally with a woman that chooses to gas light. She will literally not even hear you, much less understand. She does not care to understand either! Not one fuck will be given for your man logic!

    And that is ok because she is not a man!

    The only way is to not engage, or game the hell out of her if you want the practice. (A&A works)

    You gotta meet her feelz with feelz (game), not logic.

    (Or drop the gas lighting bitch to the curb)

  9. @CaveClown – I think pretty much all women gas-light in the way I described (for the purpose of reality testing). I think that in fact this is the basic nature of the Feminine Imperative (gas-lighting writ-large). You can’t get away from it (unless you spurn society and go live on a mountain).

    I know my approach does work because it has worked for me many times now (whereas in my past, my other approaches did not work). Of course women are not logical, and a woman may not be give a fuck about my man logic (some try though but you are more or less right), but what she does give a fuck about is to have someone who is safe to defer to, which she tests by way of testing for nuanced but ironclad confidence, which can’t be faked (because confidence, and especially a lack thereof, has an emotional component that she can read better they any man can fake if she is emotionally bright enough). A man can only have genuine ironclad confidence in his worldview if he has put in the rational work. There is no shortcut. So…. for women, this is a very good darwinian-encoded strategy, – to test for what she doesn’t have but needs, by way of playing to her strengths, test-wise – and if she is good – it could be an almost full-proof method of correctly selecting if she has enough men to test and choose from, and she is emotionally-bright, and isn’t impulse-control-compromised.

    What I am describing here is game. Stay true to the frame I described in my post above and you will automatically provide the woman with what has been coined “game”.

  10. Hey Wild Man, ever hear of Law #4 of the 48 Laws of Power?

    I didn’t think so……

    Stop being so fucking agentic. (whatever the hell that means).

    Frame is not power……repeat after me……Keeping Frame is not power.

    And stop mentally jacking off so much. Mental masturbation is not frame you know. And you wonder why you draw so many Beta tells from women….

    Show me a woman that isn’t impulse-control-compromised. And I’ll show an equalist, non complementarian, non-polar boring soul. One without true desire for you. Good luck with that……

    Don’t get me wrong. I like nerds. Just not the nerds that lack real power. You know those that don’t have control over their own circumstances or the ability to control the directions of their lives.

  11. @SJF – well I guess I will take your advice then and apply the 4th law now with respect to you. Perhaps you should take you own advice though.

  12. So many good conversations going on here.

    From Blax:
    Your number One mission in life is constant self improvement. Big steps, small steps, whatever works best for you because it is all about you.

    Indeed.

    Tuffluv wrote:

    Steve Jobs, Bill Gates — brilliant apex geniuses and techno-gods..
    Uh.. no.
    Wozniak
    Ive
    Allen
    THEY built this world.
    Jobs and Gates were simply masters of Law 7

    Yes, they were masters of 7. They were also leaders, especially Jobs. Yes he took all the credit and he was a complete ass to a lot of people. Jobs also led Apple to become a giant and leader in tech. Successful companies usually must have a strong leader. I see some of the business units in the company I work at teeter on the brink because of lack of leadership. Even if a man runs wild #7 it’s not necessarily evil, especially if it brings wild success. Stealing people’s creative work is another thing, that is evil. I still have to explain why I purchase songs from iTunes instead of just grabbing them from wherever for free.

    We all know Apple was in the shitter in 1997 when Jobs worked his way back into Apple. But take a guess at how many people that worked at Apple were so damn happy he did come back? Their stock options count for something. Woz was a technical genius, but not a leader.

    When my boss sometimes takes credit for stuff I’ve create or a massive project I’ve lead I try not to let it bother me. Rarely happens, but it’s life. I know I did the work and learned along the process at becoming better at what I do. Besides, he will take me aside privately and tell me nice bit of work or you’ve endured a lot and I appreciate your work. Last year he unexpectedly gave me a sizable bonus recognizing I had busted my ass at reorganizing a vital revenue generation operation. His words were: “you never asked for credit, you never asked for a raise or any compensation, you just did a great job.”

    I love that shit because I respect him and know if not for him our company would have failed two years ago and been splintered in a sell off. Is he an egoist ass sometimes? Yes, but I also loved the bonus. 🙂 Point is that aside from the money those comments I get mean something to me. Getting respect does matter, and I enjoy getting it from men more than women. Even more important is the feeling of satisfaction I get when I worked through complex issues and found solutions. I know when the day is done it was my own volition and motivation to prove to myself I could do the work. As often as possible I make it as much as I can about me.

    Scribbler wrote:

    “I tend to be less overt now and also time my contributions. I’m less “giving” and generous with my ideas and support. I also am great at delegating and coordinating in addition to doing. Timing may be the biggest change in that I now own my desire I have to win social games unabashedly, I realize that just being right or getting the work done well and completely simply isn’t enough for me to be successful. I used to walk around like an under-appreciated guy, now I’m more like a savvy fox, careful to contribute in ways that accrue to me and to create some mystery and a sense of almost magic to what I do. I don’t take credit for other’s work directly but by exerting leadership at the right moments and managing my visibility, I’m often given credit at a meta level for team success and improvements in general while others may have done as much or more work.”

    Right on. If you know how to get shit done while others are in your way then what Scribbler wrote is also a way to gain more power to fix problems and bring continued success to the table. Used in selfish manner looking to simply get praise is lame. With holding so others have to think for themselves can work. Sometimes less enablement and more empowerment to help others realize they can do a job is what it takes. There can be some satisfaction being that savvy fox. Game comes in many forms.

    From Rollo:

    “But now the FI (via its media arm Disney) has assimilated Lucas’s creative masterpiece if not his life’s legacy; and all for the pittance of $4B. Now the FI is free to debase his greatest work(s) with its graffiti and claim authorship of it, going so far as to rewrite a cheapened imitation of the original.”

    Reminds me of Atlas shrugged and The Fountain Head. Your personal experiences described in the beginning of your post made me feel like I was reading from both of those books. Don’t want to presume you’ve read them, but you seem like you could be a fan perhaps? Both books had a huge impact on me years ago. Roark had a brass pair.

    KFG:
    “I am now at the stage of life where I know more dead people than live people. Perhaps I have had an “advantage” though; I grew up with a rather tenuous grasp on life and have understood that my life could end with the next heart beat at least since reaching the age of self-consciousness.”

    Amen.

    Cave:
    “Your husband should thank you for BJs ”
    I really feelz the need to point out how wrong this is.
    NEVER thank a woman for anything sexual.
    Compliment her technique, tell her how hot you are/were for her, do some aftercare, but holy shit don’t ever thank her.”

    Love that Cave! Telling her the technique was best or that it was hot and slutty the way she showed up for that quickie before work seems to generate more repeat performances. GF would rather hear how I think she is a naughty girl for giving me the BJ while driving down the highway in broad daylight than thanking her for making me feel good.
    Ha! What Rollo wrote too. A shit eating grin or a short comment like “damn that ass looked great as I nailed you doggie, bark louder next time.” She will text me all day wanting more. Happily, it happened today.

    Rugby:
    “I get angry with myself for failing to live up to the burden of performance.
    I haven’t yet Ben able to internalize the impact and beauty that comes with that.”

    Don’t give up dude. If I can figure some of this shit out then you sure as hell can. I ought to know being a slow learner. I don’t always live up to the burden of performance. There is no thank you for living with that burden. Honestly though, after spending two days with both my son and daughter over Christmas I felt self-respect for living up to that burden over the past two months. Not in all ways, but enough that I see some of my actions pay off as a father even though my kids don’t recognize it or are not even aware. The beauty in the burden for me lately is working it for myself knowing I am doing the right thing and knowing that my kids will benefit at some point in their lives. Of course tomorrow my daughter could have a meltdown and try to test me. The burden never ends.

  13. @kfg – are you suggesting the Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness line of inquiry with respect to the exploration of the “noise” I suggested may be a component of humankind phenomenon (noise that I suggested has been transfigured, by way of real abstraction, into something more than just “noise”, into a real emergent property, in at least one way – the ghost-like self-awareness we possess that we have fashioned into the real abstraction we call human agency – our belief in our ability to take decisions)?

    If so – interesting thought – and I don’t know enough about the Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness problem to know if that approach might hold promise (all I know about these concepts, that may apply, is that they also deal with the property of turbulence within fluid mechanics, which is characterized by a chaos function). I’m not even sure where the “noise” get’s into the system – humankind-phenomenon-wise, but it seems it must, as freewill and determinism are mutually incompatible and yet the property of freewill would need to be dealt with within an algorithmic description of humankind, because we behave within the dictates of that variable, I would argue, and so it would not be unreasonable to speculate that the “noise” gets in, in the way I suggested (but it is only a suggestion – I don’t know, and I don’t think anybody does at this point, as far as I am aware).

    I guess the methodology that I envision may hold some promise, with respect to searching for a powerful algorithmic description of humankind, would be something more along the lines of using our ever increasing power of computational technology to mash the empirical cycle (observation, induction, deduction, testing, and evaluation) into one mammoth endeavor, working both bottom-up and top-down at the same time This would be a data optimization problem formatted something like the following:

    A) map out all the behavioral phenomenon we know about (actual physical behaviors at all levels of physical organization, including abstract behaviors such as language-use, logical reasoning etc. etc., but also including other more precise physical things we know about through measurement such as hormonal responses, and other measurable unconscious behaviors such as pupil dilation for example), together with first person reports of psychic activity, including reported emotions of course

    Plotted for:

    B) how this data fluctuates as environmental stressors fluctuate, particularly social situation fluctuations, the social situations mapped for the gradient of one-on-one all the way up to global, and mapped for demographic variability of all kinds

    And also plotted for:

    – further fluctuations caused by the recursive interaction of A with B, within both A and B

    And:

    – the correlative relationships within the A variables as these variables fluctuate

    And:

    – the correlative relationships within the B variables as these variables fluctuate

    Then:

    C) use data optimization tools to produce a large data set of possible algorithm sets, which are based on every single set of relational concepts for human behavior that has ever been introduced into the public domain via philosophical/social scientific/psychological/theological/etc. domains (i.e. – let’s call this the ontological data set), using the combinatorial power of the data optimization technology to explore every possible permutation of the ontological set, (these ontological algorithm sets constructed in such a way as to produce predictions about A and B variability)

    Then:

    – run C against all of the A+B

    Then:

    – sort for all the correspondences of accurate predictions of the C set on the A+B data set (call this smaller subset of C the ontologically accurate set of algorithms – the D set)

    Then:

    – Reduce the D set by way of sorting for the smallest subset of D’s with the highest occurrence of predictive power A+B-wise.

    I believe this data optimization approach is going to be used everywhere very soon – and so what I was wondering in my posts above – does anybody know if any research group is successfully working on a data optimization solution for all of human behavior right now?

    If this is not possible yet, at some point I would assume it will be, when data optimization tools will be used to collate, in a meaningful way, everything ever written. This can’t be too off I would speculate.

  14. @Wild Man: “are you suggesting the Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness line of inquiry with respect to the exploration of the “noise” I suggested may be a component of humankind phenomenon . . .”

    Your local shopping mall was designed (circa 1970) using Navier-Stokes and statistical thermodynamics, as it turns out that the motion of humans in a cylinder closely resembles that of fluids and gasses to the molecular level.

    The existence and smoothness problems remain unsolved.

    The three body problem, where three bodies in motion react to each other by a single, simple force, has been demonstrated to be unsolvable. The best we can do is reiteratively brute force approximations and then apply corrections as necessary.

    And you wish to derive an algorithm for humanity.

    I am suggesting that you are engaging in a rather spergie fantasy.

  15. Rollo, I have been reading you for more than two years now, and I have the two TRM books published so far.

    Because of your work, I was able to help myself out of the barrel of crabs, and subsequently help one young friend I started (and finished) to mentor.

    Thank you for your work, man.

    As you may notice, I have never really commented here at TRM blog (although I do RT and eventual comments on Twitter, as @Scienssu).

    However, today I’d like to ask you something about the TRM books. I notice there is a Korean version of TRM available, but I have never seen a Japanese version of it.

    I have some friends who happen to be Japanese, but unfortunately some of them are so blue pilled and herbivore that it makes it difficult for me to deepen the friendship. Some of them, however, seem willing to learn and stop being chumps when I try talking to them about the Red Pill.

    Problem is, I have no time to guide anyone anymore, and I don’t think they would take the trouble of reading a book in English, no matter the subject.

    To cut to the chase, my question to you is: will TRM books be available in Japanese language anytime soon?

    I’d love to buy it as a gift for a few people I know.

    Many thanks!
    Zora

  16. “Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but always take the credit”

    I know a lot of people in high level leadership positions, and some got there using this tactic. They don’t have a lot of friends, and little loyalty from their subordinates. That’s a pretty big quality of life thing. I’ve never been a “leader” per say (except for nurses aids at the hospital) but this would not have been a good tactic for nursing either, where a good relationship with one’s subordinates is pretty crucial.

    Mike says this quote quite often, and lives by it.
    I’m not sure where it originated. It’s kind of the opposite of the above rule.
    “There is no end to the good you can do if you don’t care who takes the credit”.
    Fwiw, I’ve seen others take the credit he should have been given over the years. This was especially true back when he was starting out. But over time people start to figure out who the strong performer really is.

    When he left his old career (or put it on hold anyway), as soon as word got out after he asked a couple of people for recommendations folks from all around started contacting him and sending him recommendations…without him asking. At the first and only interview for his new job (out of thousands of applicants, only about 60 made it to the interview and I think they took about 1/3 of those, been a long time so I can’t recall exactly) the person interviewing him said later he could tell by the stack of recommendations Mike was a good person to hire.

    Reading the link it was interesting to me that Nikola Tesla was held as a “prime example of what not to do”.
    I’m no Tesla expert, but from reading what I have about him he lived life exactly as he wanted to. If he “toiled”, it was the sort of toil he thrived on and desired.
    He was an eccentric genius, and didn’t envy Edison at all. If anything, he thought of Edison as semi-imbecilic pogue.
    FWIW, I think Edison lived life exactly as he wanted to also. But I expect if one envied the other, Edison was the one who envied Tesla, not the other way around.

    I thought this statement was particularly strange, and inaccurate: ”Isaac Newton, a genius in his own right made his discoveries built on the achievement of others.”

    Isaac Newton was very much like Tesla. This is the guy who invented Calculus for crying out loud. He stuck a needle in his own eyeball to study optics. He “built on the achievement of others” only in the same sense that we all are right now. Obviously without written language and the alphabet we couldn’t communicate. Science is progressive, but that doesn’t place Newton in the category of someone who “got others to do the work so he could always take the credit”.

  17. @Driver – it’s far worse than “rookie” mistakes that we see with women and the FI dominating many institutions of our society. Nietzsche predicted how the world would devolve when women attempted to masculinize themselves, nothing how our public intellectual dialogs would descend into a hash of nonsense. Consider just how disconnected the average Prog-Marxist-SJW (most of them don’t even realize they are Marxists) is from reality? Think about how many times the mythical “wage gap” has been debunked. Or take the hysteria over “mass shootings” – a new category of violence conflated into being by the agitprop artists over at the Washington Post?

    I was talking to my wing who is very concerned about gun violence, so I showed him the actual stats on violent crime in general and gun deaths in particular and how the frequency of such crimes has fallen by almost 50% over the past 25 years. He was stunned and I asked him to ask himself why the media simply ignores these realities?

    Or just watch how they claim how unemployment is improving in the U.S. When the truth is that we have unprecedented rates of people dropping out of the workforce and that most new jobs are part time low wage crap jobs? Or how about the dropout rate of women in STEM fields? Despite the fact that women enjoy preferential hiring in these fields, what we find is that women drop out of them. See Norway for a long history on this despite engaging in the kind social engineering we are now starting to do for 25 years.

    I can tell you this as an older guy, the public dialog on issues was not always as insane as it is now. It has detached from reality in so many profound ways and this is only possible with women and women’s values dominating. Of course this is aided and abetted by ridiculous developments such as post modernism and post structuralism, along with the brutal power politics of the left, the “whatever it takes” approach and guys like Saul Alinsky who assured leftists that they are so morally superior that they are permitted to lie, cheat and steal to accomplish their goals. Hillary and Obama were both devotees of Alinsky.

    Don’t today’s politics feel like you are arguing with a woman, knowing that despite being right, there is no way to win? We are here because of the of the dominance of the FI and women in every institution in society. The only justice is that none of their ideas work and they will destroy our society and their own grasp on it due to their inanity.

  18. re – the sex by deception law.

    One of the best comments I’ve read on this site was about how a junior doctor made out he was some kind of contractor.
    His girl found out about his doctor status by rifling his phone.
    The killshot – “I would never have slept with you so soon if I knew you were a doctor!”

    I still have difficulty with how rational and irrational women can be at the same time.

  19. As I have mentioned in my videos when dealing with MGTOW men when they say that they do not want to have that burden of performance or that they do not feel the motivation to do anything anymore since they ditched women all together…

    We are built in such a way that performing or doing things that we find admirable or we have a distinct interest in, has a drive of its own. There really is pleasure that comes from doing something and achieving something or building something of your own. The fact of the matter is, as evolution has designed us, it would make sense that a man gets pleasure from doing something and achieving something automatically and not simply wait for the reward of all that work to come in the form of women, otherwise nothing would get done ever. I tell this to men who are going through a period of not wanting to do anything, red pill malaise or whatever they might call it. The first step is understanding that as a man, you are built to do, to act, to achieve things and it’s why this WOW and multiplayer games get so many men addicted to them, but the same can be said about life. You move from one goal to the next and when you have no more goals set for you, you are kind of stuck.

    I have no problem with any man who capitalises on his achievements, or uses his achievements knowingly and what not to get laid. I have no problem with the man who goes and gets a woman, because he wants to get a woman in his life. I have a problem with marriage because it just makes really bad business sense to me, but girls especially the age group I am selective off early to mid twenties don’t mind that, and some are willing or so they say to keep going despite no ring will ever leave my pocket to go on their fingers.

    I believe that the burden of performance is on men. It will always be on men and women will never have to face that. But such is the nature of the game. Taking care of you. Helping you. Advancing your goals. Those things should be priorities for young men, women and pussy floods to you if you like yourself, enjoy yourself and are doing well for yourself and of course they do that to benefit, but that has always been the relationship between man and woman. It is a very simple truth that men get born and need to make themselves into something and women are born something. I have no problem with that.

    Just like yourself Rollo, I am quite worried about the monk code videos that are going around in the MGTOW scene. The solid and frankly hateful thinking that exists there. Though I have taken months off and gone “ghost” to sort my life out, I think the main theme of such phenomenon is fear, and rejection of reality because of so called reasons. And sadly I see that trend growing, because men are scared and that fear gets blown out of proportion.

  20. @Just Getting It: The fact that orcs employ different strategies than do night elves does imply that the strategies of orcs are irrational.

  21. @just getting it

    “I still have difficulty with how rational and irrational women can be at the same time.”

    One of the more important themes that I have tried to promote in comments and in regard to this statement is getting through the five Kubler-Ross stages of grief to acceptance. Try not to get stuck in denial, anger, bargaining or depression. Once you can accept how irrational women can be, then you can move on to interact with them in a more masterful fashion.

    This statement can be accepted as totally rational when seen from a red pill lens: “I would never have slept with you so soon if I knew you were a doctor!” It certainly fits well within that woman’s best thought out sexual strategy.

    @Liz

    Morals and ethics are quite a different thing when reading the 48 Laws of Power. It behooves anyone to read the introduction to the book to have perspectives on the Laws. (Sorry, but I’m giving up cut-and-pasting for a month to improve my commentary narratives)

    It is pretty clear that Edison played Tesla. And even though Tesla was noble in his own mind, he allowed himself to be played. If he were a husband or father building an empire he would have been judged as a piss poor example of both.Would you really want your husband to be remarkably intelligent and creative and toil away under someone that used Law #7 (to his discredit) and then have him not profit by his greatness (whether monetarily or by historical esteem)?

  22. @Niko:

    As I have noted before, there is a word for organisms that “just are” and have no burden of performance:

    Vegetable.

  23. @Niko Choski

    “I tell this to men who are going through a period of not wanting to do anything, red pill malaise or whatever they might call it. The first step is understanding that as a man, you are built to do, to act, to achieve things and it’s why this WOW and multiplayer games get so many men addicted to them, but the same can be said about life. You move from one goal to the next and when you have no more goals set for you, you are kind of stuck.”

    This brings up once again the value of Marc Lewis’ book “The Biology of Desire, Addiction is not a disease”.

    Malaise is an addiction, so is a poor blue pill designed sexual strategy.

    “There really is pleasure that comes from doing something and achieving something or building something of your own.”

    Yes.
    And that is because of a flood of dopamine in the limbic system. When you can no longer get pleasure from a single source, a man has dug himself into a rut. What is helpful at this point is to have a work-around involving several or multiple other dopamine inputs (I would suggest five or six).

    Anyone interested in “what provides dopamine” can google search a bit to find out what other dopamine inputs would work for them. Good music, physical exercise (perhaps weightlifting for men), adventure–spiritual, intellectual, physical, social, etc, good parenting, sex with beautiful women, investment in your profession and work where you can be successful, hobbies …….and the list could go on.If you rely on just one of these and when it stops providing enough dopamine motivation, then you have dug your rut. This is how the brain works. It’s normal.

    In other words, more goals and more dopamine from a myriad of sources not just the one that digs you into a rut and prevents the ability to derive pleasure from other sources.

  24. “And that is because of a flood of dopamine in the limbic system.”

    While I understand the value of knowing mechanism, I’ve never really understood how, on a practical basis, discussing dopamine is in any way superior to simply saying, “This shit is enjoyable and will make you feel better.”

    Similarly, rather than discuss leptin and ghrelin signalling, I am more inclined to say, “I’m feeling a bit peckish, I could stand a bit of a knosh,” or, “Not now thanks, I’m really not that hungry. Wrap it up for later.”

    I fucking love science, but pseudo-scientism drives me almost as nuts as pseudo-economism.*

    *Please, dear God people, stop using “consumer” as a synonym for “person,” or “customer” and “consume” as a synonym for “purchase.” Likewise, stop using “franchise” as a synonym for “story,” or “series.”

  25. KFG,

    “This shit is enjoyable and will make you feel better.”

    You are entirely correct and stating a distinction without a difference.
    The same principles of “how to get out of a rut” apply whether you understand the workings under the hood or not.

    I see pseudo-scientism all the time. I too loathe it. I don’t think this concept qualifies as such (and I don’t believe evo-psych or behavioral psychology qualifies either, no matter what others say). And yes, I am personally ego-invested in scientism.

  26. “You are entirely correct and stating a distinction without a difference.”

    Q.E.D.

    “I don’t think this concept qualifies as such . . .”

    See how thoroughly the technical jargon has embedded itself into the colloquial? It’s become almost impossible even to see it.

  27. It is fine if you want to call it primitive science of how the human brain works in order to suggest a prescription for how a man gets out of his rut, gets up off his ass and performs (for himself or for others).

  28. Funny, I’ve Google searched Q.E.D many times based on your comments. I have to say that I still am quite ignorant of what it is. It doesn’t register for me. Perhaps neither does “dopamine” and “limbic system” for you.

    Not trying to argue the point, as I respect your comments immensely, but if it helps another man understand “how to” or write his own script of how to get out of his rut, “that shit is enjoyable to me and makes me feel better”. Not every one “just gets it” the way KFG has for six decades.

  29. Quod Erat Demonstrandum; That which was to be shown.

    “Not every one “just gets it” the way KFG has for six decades.”

    No particular credit to me, when I was born dopamine had yet to be discovered in the brain, but its effects had been understood since the dawn of understanding.

  30. “Quod Erat Demonstrandum; That which was to be shown.”

    KFG, do me a favor and describe how that applies to your opinion of my comments. I keep seeing the definition, but don’t understand how it applies. Am I saying something that has no basis for a red pill praxeology? For awareness and game?

    ” …but its effects had been understood since the dawn of understanding.”

    Understood. But there was still a fog cast over some of us greater beta, lesser alpha strivers (over the last five decades) by the FI and social conventions that some of us want to clear. To write our own script based on the wisdom of others. Understand and then apply to advance our mission rather than “just be ourselves”. No one ever told some of us this shit.

  31. @just getting it

    They are not irrational. They just have a different premise than you to build on.

    You are a contractor (without any additional info) implies you don’t have much money. She focuses on attraction or arousal. If she wants to fuck you, she does or else she ditches you.

    You are a doctor, that means big payday. Time to focus on the long con; build fantasies in your head, get you to “fall in love”; play the : ” I’m looking for a serious long term relationship card” ; tell you how much she loves you, yet play on your emotions and feelings to deepen your emotional attachment and dependence to her.

    She needs those resources to survive. It’s simply ruthless pragmatism.

  32. ” . . .do me a favor and describe how that applies to your opinion of my comments.”

    You said: “You are entirely correct and stating a distinction without a difference.”

    Whereas what I said was that there is no practical difference. You simply restated my point; Q.E.D.

    “It feels good,” and “dopamine was released” say essentially the same thing, only in the former it is stated as the common experience in the ancient vernacular which everyone understands, and in the latter it is stated as a chemical process in the less than 60 year old jargon of chemistry (which requires a mental translation into the former) giving the statement an air of being a scientific statement.

    Which adds no new information. Its only purpose being that air of – Science! Hence, pseudo-scientism.

    “No one ever told some of us this shit.”

    I am telling you shit now. I am telling you to heed the warning of Orwell, that your language, and thus your thought, is under attack. In order to protect and foster understanding you must protect the language in which it can be expressed.

    The substitution of science jargon for colloquial speech where such is not needed to foster understanding, in order to give simple concepts an air of scientific authority, is the language of the Marxists, the eugenicists, the transhumanists, the feminists, the “masculinity is a chemical imbalance in the brain”ists, and all of their totalitarian ilk who seek to bring us into the scientific utopia.

    The language of the people who observe ants and think, “Yes! That’s how people ought to be, and if the people will not be that way, we will just get a new people.”

    Human beings, people, “feel good.” Ants “release dopamine”:

    https://news.ncsu.edu/2014/05/penick-gamergates-2014/

  33. Q.E.D. implies that the thing the speaker was trying to demonstrate has been demonstrated. It’s kinda like saying ‘case in point’ or ‘I rest my case,’ but more precisely/formally.

  34. “You are a doctor, that means big payday. Time to focus on the long con; build fantasies in your head, get you to “fall in love”; play the : ” I’m looking for a serious long term relationship card” ; tell you how much she loves you, yet play on your emotions and feelings to deepen your emotional attachment and dependence to her.”

    All that…but also, putting out right away is a signal she probably has quite a past and has done that often. Which might diminish her value to him and make her a flight and/or cuckold risk.
    From a pragmatic standpoint, the woman who wants to get a guy in a high paying profession to sign on for a longterm investment doesn’t want to come across as an easy screw.

  35. @Niko
    “fear, and rejection of reality”
    That’s a lot of me. I’m tired of my own bullshit.
    @cave,roused
    It’s weird I’ll be ok. Just realizing how wonderful my trauma and life is. I have no rights I have little assist and I am willing to build my business in helping others perhaps by coming into the wonder and great power the mentorship and truth I tho blog posses.
    I will always have control over how I handle things I’ve never had control over. By understanding my attitude is all I can master to my advantage. It’s a gift I cherish.
    My time my interest and knowing I’m with men here who are able and willing I point out my obvious flaws and patterns that do not help me growth and prosperity.

  36. Thanks KFG and Forge.

    In my ignorance I was actually thinking Q.E.D. was “That which has to be shown”, rather than as stated.

    “I am telling you to heed the warning of Orwell, that your language, and thus your thought, is under attack. In order to protect and foster understanding you must protect the language in which it can be expressed.”

    Got that. I have to admit to an intellectual upbringing in which I received and processed information well, but remained very much under-developed (relative to where I should be, not in an absolute measuring) in delivering info to others (in speech and writing) in a precise fashion. A fault of mine which I well recognize.

  37. Here is the critical point: ” . . . (which requires a mental translation into the former). . . ”

    Remove that and the statements, from a psychological standpoint, cease to be equivalent. Where you formerly had a language to express your experienced state, you now only have a language to express your observed state.

    You have been psycho-linguistically transformed into an ant in a lab, unable to even think of yourself as anything other.

    We aren’t anywhere near that yet, but you can observe the culture moving in that direction at an accelerating rate.

  38. @KFG.

    Good, well expressed thoughts.

    I perform very well within my experienced state–in my own head. I am relatively inadequate in expressing my observations (my under-developed faults in expression) because I presume I got caught up in the culture moving in that direction at an accelerating rate. If we had a nickel for every time we were told (or knew darn well) to demonstrate, don’t explicate……….

  39. Hey Chester,Liz,

    I get all that – you’ve explained what I was talking about when I said rational.

    Then in day to day conversation said girl will act like an airhead; irrational.

    Together they are like the proverbial iron fist in a velvet glove.

    Also it’s kind of funny that a doctor has to disguise himself to get uncommitted sex.

  40. @SJF

    Absolutely, the dopaminergic pathways in the brain get activated following exercise, achievements and whatever a person may find pleasurable such as music etc. You need multiples sources of it, to maintain balance.

    But of course we should not forget that the same thing applies when you engage with a woman and pairbond. I wrote an article/have a video on the biology of monogamy explaining the differences and the activation of certain pathways in the brain based on the vasopressin receptors in the brain and the length of their promoter sequence.

    What I mean in plain terms is that there appears to be variation between humans on the presence of this receptor in the brain. So much so that the ability of these humans to bond with others may be impaired. Additionally these receptors are involved in the so called love spell and activate the dopaminergic pathways and regions of the brain commonly associated with addiction. What I understand from this is that many of the guys in MGTOW are choosing to instead of controlling this ‘addiction’ and rationalising it, they instead go cold turkey on it. And like most things naturally present, it keeps on hitting them and nagging them throughout their lives. That’s when frustration can kick in, that’s when other addictive behaviours can substitute the same and that’s where people get lost in their own thoughts.

  41. @rugby
    “My independence was hard to gain even at 27 it’s hard to go back to the house I was in. They don’t know me and keep trying to force me into a beta religious provider with conviction.”

    If you start earning more and doing good for yourself, they will go more subtle in their approach.
    If your frame is good, you DHV and are sure of yourself, they will drop it in some time.
    Worked on my family circle. All the felines of my extended family now care only about not annoying me. I don’t see them nagging or taunting me anymore.

    “I get angry with myself for failing to live up to the burden of performance.”
    Irritated yes, angry no.
    Get your mental point of origin on yourself and eat the elephant one bite at a time, it will not be a burden.

    @all posters, you should really not attempt to “slut shaming” men into picking up the burden of performance. Else you are no different than women.
    Can Corey Worthington be slut shamed into his burden of performance?
    That guy is just an idol of strong frame but useless otherwise.

    “As I have mentioned in my videos when dealing with MGTOW men when they say that they do not want to have that burden of performance or that they do not feel the motivation to do anything anymore since they ditched women all together…”

    Sandman MGTOW has been quite opposite of what you described.

    “I am quite worried about the monk code videos that are going around in the MGTOW scene.”
    Hmm, never heard of monk’s code in my MGTOW circles. Maybe its for TFLers(true forced loneliness)

    @Rollo

    “it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.”

    Is this the eternal truth or just the result of way homo sapiens have evolved upto this point ?

    “There is no safety net, no other socially acceptable option to be provided for and still retain his being definitively a ‘man’.”
    “We look down on men who are dependent on women.”

    Does We means America only for now. Currently Sweden seem to accept the above.
    Do we have to follow what we have evolved upto this point or we can choose to behave the other way.

    “But there’s more to the worth of a man than just his notch count. Sexual experience constitutes a very important measure of that, but a man should want more for himself as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad.”

    While I may not disagree with above, the above prescription has no basis.
    Even FI would say ” a man should want more for his better half and serve as her plantation slave for eternity”
    I do not see this anything more than your own personal fantasy.
    Whats wrong if (lets say) Corey Worthington sees having a high notch count as the only measure of his life? why bother being anything else, if one just simply not feel so.

    Some time back you discussed the pinacle moment or apex experience of a man’s live and your have been in solitude with nature when you go to your cabin.
    Other posters piggybacked you in for confirm the same with their similar experiences.
    the way it was described it was a very American phenomena

    However, across time and across cultures the pinnacle moment for a man has been described as dying as a patriarch in his death bed surrounded by his huge family. Some described glorious victory in battlefield as their top moment in life.

    “I have a problem with Law 7; for as much as you may gain by employing it you rarely develop the insights that failing of your own accord teaches you.”

    Application of Law 7 depends on nature of your profession.

    This is because you are a producer. Producers take pride in what you create. Taking credit for other’s work just hurts your own creative fulfillment as against Glenn who is a parasite(by profession)
    Its the nature of his profession to take credit of others.
    You can’t be a butcher and be an animal right activist.

    He makes his living by being a secondary operator(sales n marketing) not a primary producer. He may be paid handsomely for this skills.
    He keeps repeating “I work with the best and brightest in the field”.
    He is all praise for the producers in his life but he feels a certain void for not being one of them. That shows in his above praise.

    @Glenn
    Try building something real good with your own hands. If not anything else, try building a sand castle by the beach on new year. Then tell us what you feel about law 7.
    Do snap a picture and post it here.

    @ Those ambivalent about law 7
    Ask yourself, how would you feel if you had a young handsome man servant who would game women for you, get them wet and all you would do, at the end, is stick it in their wethole and pump your cum out. You are taking the credit and fruits of his work.
    Is putting the effort to game women yourself essential to you or not?
    or
    are you amongst those who feel law 7 should be applied to ones profession but not The Game ?

    “Also it’s kind of funny that a doctor has to disguise himself to get uncommitted sex.”
    Already known in MGTOW circles for a year. Recommendation is not to use your expensive cars or clothes for pickup. And always go to her place. Never bring her to yours.
    All these for one time uncommitted sex with minimal game.

    However, as a doctor, he can plate her with less effort.

  42. “The substitution of science jargon for colloquial speech where such is not needed to foster understanding, in order to give simple concepts an air of scientific authority, is the language of the Marxists, the eugenicists, the transhumanists, the feminists, the “masculinity is a chemical imbalance in the brain”ists, and all of their totalitarian ilk who seek to bring us into the scientific utopia.”

    Excellent point. I feel like I read something similar from GK Chesterton back when.

    An eccentric intellect, but the one thing he held sacred with all the power of his verve and vim was the importance of fully human experience.

    SJF, kfg has a point here. You tend to relay information in the shorthand of abstractions rather than conveying the feeling of your lived-in experiences. If I may, I’d suggest trying to read a bit of fiction. Your mind has the sound of being deeply steeped in non-fiction books but no stories. And I remember talking to you once about the sorts of fiction I liked, and you simply had no reference to understand what I was talking about.

    People communicate most poignantly through stories. Ultimately, of course, socializing is the only way to learn how. But by seeing how great storytellers use words, you can get many more ideas for how to go about that than you could develop on your own.

  43. @Shiva – Bad timing. I’m in NYC hanging out with my my musical partner, and we played last night for some friends. All my original music, accompanied by a great guitarist. My work was greeted warmly, and the small group loves it and asks for more, so we do so. I get the usual look of shock when they find out I freestyled the song they loved so much, and comments about gigging more or getting recorded, blah blah blah. I create and perform music, and also have a lots of writing experience. You presume much with your tone though, revealing something not so flattering about you, not me.

    I was just meeting with a product oriented entrpreneuer this morning who has a SaaS company. He knows that sales skill and knowledge is crucial to engage the market early, and that doing so in a b2b technology market is not intuitive.mi actually work collaboratively with such folks regularly – people with real companies and their own money on the line, that’s my business. Nine of them ever lecture me. But please, proceed to enlighten me…

  44. @ Forge the Sky.

    Thanks. I actually did start reading a book of fiction yesterday “Pretty Girls” by Karin Slaughter. (does a fictional book about psychopathic killers qualify?)

    I appreciate the suggestion. But I’m skeptical as to the implementation by reading fiction. I have actually read a shit-load of fiction in my life. But it seems to be a preference and personality type–not preferring fiction these days. Rather than an inability to dream, think and express stories with emotion, I submit it is merely a preference. Just like I’m pretty sure I’ve resolved the issue of me having autistic traits by choice and personality type rather than by a developmental defect (not that there is anything wrong with developmental brain defects).

    Just last night I was out with a friend and boy was it good socializing and storytelling, if I do say so myself. And quite a few laugh out loud moments.

    Along the lines of your suggestion, I think perhaps more and better socializing with good Game is in order, with a perceptive eye on keeping the boring shit out. And the emotions of the other person in the mix. I have really picked up my quantity of socializing in the last two years–and it is quite prodigious–because of my desire to socialize as a red pill game enthusiast and my current milieu.

    See I’m a militant INTJ. And I’m not saying that is good, it is just who I am and there is ego-investment there (It has gotten me far and wide in life).

    Take a look at this profile of INTJ Type and Emotions:

    http://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality-and-emotions

    (….I just had to delete some cut and past there from that link. Once again on a moratorium to try and improve my narrative story telling)

    For someone that was not ego-invested in being like the link describes, it really must seem quite scary and inept. I rather enjoy it.

    I do get the need for dealing with my own emotions without extreme self-suppression rather than self discipline. And I do understand the need manage emotions (or stimulating properly the emotions of a female partner) in Game. So I guess, in this regard, that gets put into the “work on self-improvement” slot.

    But enough about me. Sorry for the didactic boring commentary. 🙂

  45. @Shiva,

    Do we have to follow what we have evolved up to this point or we can choose to behave the other way.

    Like most MGTOWs you believe that attaching the word ‘evolution’ to any sentence necessarily implies determinism, it does not. The problem most of you have is one of binaries, all on, all off.

    The very fact that your brain can grasp language and communication is the result of adaptive evolution, but that doesn’t preclude your own thoughts and what you will use that capacity for language to tell others.

    Of course you can choose to behave in ways that contradict your biological predispositions, but that does not negate the the fact that your choices are influenced by those evolved predispositions. You can choose not to eat, but that doesn’t change the fact that you get hungry, or that your body prioritizes certain types of calories above others because it’s evolved to do so for survival reasons. You can avoid becoming obese by choosing diet and exercise, but that doesn’t cancel the fact that you will get fat if you overeat because your natural evolved predisposition is to store fat and energy for survival situations.

    You can also choose to cut your balls and dick off and never need worry about women’s undue influence in your life again, but that wont change a single predisposition you’re already influenced by. You will however alter your capacity to experience life as a man.

    Whats wrong if (lets say) Corey Worthington sees having a high notch count as the only measure of his life? why bother being anything else, if one just simply not feel so.

    Again, you propose static absolutes as being universal without considering that environment and personal maturity changes. Imagine a Corey Worthington at 45 years old. Is he a father? How many kids does he have? Is he supporting 2 wives because of his choices? What does he do for a living now?

    If all Corey measures his life by is notch count that’s his prerogative, but to suggest that men’s identities and purposes remain static for a lifetime is an unrealistic absolute. All you’re doing is creating a cartoon character that never changes.

    Even your examples of a man dying on his bed surrounded by family and the soldier dying a heroes death is playing on that same absolute character.

    The problem I see most common amongst the older more idealistic MGTOWs is that they believe that there can be a binary separation from their base humanity. If only they could remove their need for sex, then, then they’d be able to focus on higher-order things. But in divorcing themselves from that feral nature removes the motivators to want achieve greater things.

  46. To complement my previous message, the only costumer comment you have in the Japanese Amazon website is very positive. It says “This book will change your life. You will rethink everything you thought you knew about sex and women” (rough translation). I’m sure you can be much more popular there, Rollo:
    http://www.amazon.co.jp/Rational-Male-English-Rollo-Tomassi-ebook/dp/B00FK901R8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451516594&sr=8-1&keywords=rational+male

  47. @Wildman @caveclown

    I appreciate your views and dissections of the gas-lighting article. I think Wild Man hit the nail on the head: Women as a matter of course gas-light their men. Just ask any guy who’s been in a years-long, live-in relationship or marriage. Especially if he, like myself, was blue pill and then had his eyes opened by the red pill.

    I didn’t even comment on the article to my wife, and she didn’t ask me what I thought. A month ago I would’ve said it’s a pretty good description of what she’s been doing to me for the past 8 or 9 years. Today I’d just tell her I need to watch that movie now and see how it’s really done.

    Whatevs.

  48. “OK, I called it upthread:
    http://www.newsarama.com/27360-george-lucas-calls-disney-white-slavers-in-purchase-of-star-wars.html
    Damn I hate being right all the time.”

    Lucas is a smart man, he knows his legacy is being (has been) destroyed.

    He says he does not regret selling to Disney, but I would guess that is not true. Sure he made what, $1 billion on the sale? But legacy is worth more than money.

    Han Solo is one of the best characters a red pill man can watch!

    Such a shame.

  49. Merely a simple shit test for Lucas. He owned 100% of Lucasfilms and sold it to Disney for $4 billion.

    And he’s still only 5’6” tall.

    I think he will manage.

  50. Disney stocks are forecast to devalue do to large investments in an obsolete cable system.sell sell sell

  51. Burden of performance for attraction or arousal?

    Men don’t live in a biological vacuum, there’s an environment out there forcing and creating new adaptations.

    Given the FI is redefining the meaning of marriage and LTRs, is it unreasonable to presume that the burden of performance will mirror that change? Doesn’t the effort match the reward?

    Be your best, wish you were better, pump iron, develop social proof, learn the game, hit the bars (ala YaReally), devote your life to learning about women, become entertaining, travel, LTRs are game on hard mode, become interesting, fuck as many women as possible, spin plates, improve your SMV, learn languages, be the centre of attention, dominate other men….

    Is it just me or is the red pill the new blue pill? Two social epochs, same process, do what you have to do get with the girls, Lek like a mother fucker and maybe, just maybe you’ll see your self worth validated in the temporary glint of a woman’s eye.

    It would be nice if there was a third way but I guess The Lord of Biomechanics hasn’t bequeathed it so.

  52. What if this was Star Wars
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wv33e0TyL6M
    @Rollo
    “But in divorcing themselves from that feral nature removes the motivators to want achieve greater things.”
    Everyday I wake up I think about this and how much your work has place this as a main goal to achieve.
    Spoke with a few buddy’s of mine an they braught up success.
    I’m grateful to learn more on improving and less on complaining. My faults are many but my experience and growth is constant. I would wager that avoiding porn and masturbation and dancing and socializing has helped as well.

  53. Rollo, thanks for sharing the links. Especially the first set.
    I do realize that in today’s feminized Western society that any law formed to punish behavior will mostly be applied in harsher measure to men.
    However, my issue is with the second link (the bullying one) you posted. It may be helpful if you presented an argument as to why you see this as a problem. While this can be a double edged sword…the other edge is that there will be people who will for example abuse a partner, seize their passport in other to prevent escape. Please expand further on this or even address it in it’s own post.

    Finally, from the way you wrote about this specific issue in this post. I got the impression that these were laws created specifically for men. Upon viewing your links I see the they are general laws for all. Although, as I stated earlier these laws can end up being silly and against men but since the laws aren’t “men specific” it might be hard talking to someone about this and them taking it seriously without seeing it as another man trying to claim a law has been created to disadvantage men.

    Thanks for writing another great post.

  54. @kfg : you are underselling vegetables. I think they are a great example of the burden of performance, arguably even more so than male humans.

    Many (if not most) animals have a parasitic relation with vegetables (although there are a significant number of symbiotic, or complementary ones if you like).

    Many vegetables could survive without animals, whereas we and many other animals depend on vegetables to survive.

    Vegetables, including trees, have to perform to survive. Their performance is just often on different timescales than ours. We even use “Be the oak” as advice here.

  55. I am not sure where would be appropriate to post this. So, I’ll suggest it here. As a Graphic Designer when I think of the manosphere it’s reminds me of things like the school of Bauhaus, the Swiss designers, the de stijl movement etc that I learned of in history of Graphic Design. I’m also reminded of the popular posters and design works produced by these groups.

    In the same way I think the same should exist for the Red Pill. It has become a movement. My suggestion is for the writers here among us to write some kind of history of the red pill that will encompass the Manosphere, PUAs, red pill blogs, the guys behind the movements( David DeAngelo, Pook, Rollo, Roosh, Dalrock etc), terminologies, etc. Better one of us writing our own history than someone out there.

    For artists amongst us we can create posters, paintings, photographic compositions that reflect the manosphere or red pill ideologies. It doesn’t matter if such works are done for profit or art as long as they reflect the truth.

    Although personally I feel that Rollo’s psychological analysis of Red Pill truths is the best out there yet the word hypergamy is almost starting to sound redundant. So, I believe these other aspects I am proposing will help mix things up and take us away from the psychological or at least add visuals to what we already know. These will help push the red pill ideology out there since it’s a harder conversation to have with the blue pill public.

  56. I guess we are back to my main point of contention with Rollo. He seems to imply from his answer to Shiva that when the sexual component is removed from a man’s life, there is no motivation or drive to achieve anything great in life.

    Whatever a man wants for himself is up to him to decide. Whatever he SHOULD want is up to nobody else but him to define.

    The loss of motivation that I personally experienced came from the fact that I, like many men, had been brainwashed into believing in the myths of the one and the happily ever after; house, wife, 2.5 kids, white picket fence, dog etc.
    I ran my whole life with that in the back of my mind and worse of all, NOT even consciously aware of why I was doing what I was doing.

    Should men conquer the world, their environment, achieve great things and then come kneel in front of a woman and present all that as an offering at her altar for some sex and companionship?

    I understand why some people might want to have kids of their own but NOBODY has ever been able to explain convincingly why marriage makes sense.

    As a man, I live my life for me, pursuing whatever goal I decide to set for myself. I put myself at the center of everything I do. People surrounding me might get some benefits out of it but _ I _ should be the one getting the most out of it. If / when for whatever reason, that fact changes, time to move on.

    Sex is a vital need and at times, men have to do things like entertaining women (cf. Dancing Monkeys) or pay for things like dates and whatever and there is nothing wrong about that. In life, you have to give something to get something.

    Plus, for me, women’s company is enjoyable most of the time. They can be entertaining to interact with, tease etc. I interact with them for many different reasons that do not necessarily have to do with sex. Each one of them has a purpose to serve; a role to play.

    You don’t get mad at tiger for being a tiger and devouring other animals or even yourself despite the fact that your fed it and raised it into adulthood. It is in the tiger’s fundamental nature to do just that.
    Knowing this truth, you can do whatever you want with it.

  57. @ Rollo

    In actual fact the best known MGTOW: barbarossa, Stardusk, Spetsnaz who I am friends with, do not endorse separation from women but propose the free choice in making your choices after focusing to yourself first. I find barbarossa’s and Spetsnaz message very similar to yours about focusing on yourself and promoting interaction with humanity.
    (Spetsnaz video on this rejection that occurs in the community, I invite you to watch it, one of the few people that actually deals with male emotion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIixU-sl5oE)
    Stardusk has found he works better “alone”, no idea why, but he is happier like that and in that I accept it. However, he believes each man following his instincts when it comes to life.

    The phenomenon of rejection of their very nature, is indeed a subsection of the community. I do not understand it and I worry about it. It’s one of the reasons I stepped back because I cannot understand it myself and I certainly believe they are condemning a lot of young men with that message.

    I sincerely believe that a man in touch with his nature and self should act in whatever way he wants. In essence I do not believe in controlling what a man should do with his dick and balls, wanna use them use them, wanna freeze them for now do it, if you find you are too old and have too much to loose stay away from women, do that. But in the focus towards female nature that has existed over the past 4 years a lot of dreams and hopes were ruined for many men in finding this NAWALT. Many have found it very difficult to accept that even though AWALT, doesn’t mean my life is any different now. At least now I know that. Prior to the fact women were AWALT but you lived in a dream world which was set up to take advantage of you. In the rejection of that fact, men are finding it difficult to accept their own natures and go rejecting parts of it that creates a need to interact with women.

    There are no binaries it’s not either that or that, just like you said. If in my reasons to act in a certain way I do not understand my own nature and I am quoting the evolutionary nature of women, then I am acting out of fear and not focusing on me. The male and female nature is opposing, vastly different, and it is so because it exists to balance deficiencies of each gender. As for the people that quote evolution all of the time, I find it so strange that the majority of them do not comprehend it or understand how it works or the ultimate goals of it. Evolutionary drives are in all our actions, but in a changing environment it’s good that we do not have a rigid brain simply running on autopilot all of the time.

    Again as I said privately, a much needed article and some harsh truths. Happy new year.

  58. @IAS: I was wondering when you would come along, because I’m perfectly aware of what you say.

    Nonetheless the rhetorical point stands. You have the burden of performance to make tools because you have hands and close range stereoscopic vision that allows you to make tools. You have to chase down your food because you have legs and feet.

    All the things you must do are matched by the things you can do and ultimately to hate the burden of performance is to hate all life above the level of monocellular cyanobacteria just floating along in solution.

    You cannot separate yourself from your burden of performance because your burden of performance defines what you are.

    So, Warren Farrell says women are human beings, while men are human doings, as if that’s a bad thing.

    I’m perfectly happy being an animal and having the power of doing, and the vegetables are at my mercy.

  59. @Chester: “I guess we are back to my main point of contention with Rollo . . . You don’t get mad at tiger for being a tiger . . . Knowing this truth, you can do whatever you want with it.”

    Right. So; where is your point of contention?

    @Niko: “The phenomenon of rejection of their very nature, is indeed a subsection of the community. I do not understand it and I worry about it.”

    See my comment to IAS above. I have my problems with the likes of Aaron Clarey, but the criticism that many men in the MGTOW community are not MGTOW at all, but are merely using it as a buffer to rationalize their own weaknesses is valid.

    Only the strong can abjure violence, the weak are merely helpless.

  60. Rollo,

    What did you call re: Star Wars? Must’ve missed that.

    Disney bought the franchise for $4 billion, or something like that. They need to protect their investment and grow their brand through any means possible. You cash in on the brand by making a nostalgic fuck-fest like the Force Awakens.

    Should men conquer the world, their environment, achieve great things and then come kneel in front of a woman and present all that as an offering at her altar for some sex and companionship?

    I understand why some people might want to have kids of their own but NOBODY has ever been able to explain convincingly why marriage makes sense.

    Marriage isn’t an institution designed for men. It’s an institution designed for men AND women AND society. Looking at this solely from a man’s POV misses much of the rationality behind marriage.

    Most men do not achieve “great” things, they achieve some serviceable things that make the world better than it was better. America was built by a million frontiersmen. It was not built by a couple Genghis Khans who strove to conquer the world.

    For those frontiersmen, yeah, marriage can be a good deal.

    As far as I know, neither Bill Gates nor Warren Buffet comment here, so none of us have really “conquered” the world.

  61. “Should men conquer the world, their environment . . .”

    When Caesar conquered Gaul, Gaul, that is to say everything that made it Gallic, was destroyed.

  62. @Jafyk

    “These will help push the red pill ideology out there since it’s a harder conversation to have with the blue pill public.”

    Red pill awareness and game is praxeology. Not an ideology. Praxeology is a logic based philosophy about how human beings act and react. (“If a condition holds, the following should be done.” Ideologies are belief systems which hold up ideals – moral, ethical, social – as standards by which to live or guide us (Marxism and Feminism).

    Secondly, red pill awareness and game are not ready for prime time–meaning a sociological revolution. It is best practice to have a bottoms up approach instead of a societal top down practice of delivering these two praxeological entities. Until a man is ready for it, you can’t talk about fight club. It won’t work unless a man is ready to sign up and join. It is a harder conversation to have with the blue pill public. So is talking to a brick wall.

    In regards to your suggestion that “the writers here among us to write some kind of history of the red pill that will encompass the Manosphere, PUAs, red pill blogs, the guys behind the movements( David DeAngelo, Pook, Rollo, Roosh, Dalrock etc), terminologies, etc.”, that was pretty eloquently done by Ian Ironwood in his kindle book “The Manosphere: A New Hope For Masculinity” with a broad brush (but it was published in 2013 and a lot has changed since then).

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Manosphere-New-Hope-Masculinity-ebook/dp/B00D74DQ8E

  63. @ A Definite Beta Guy, I get your point. And it does make sense to me now.

    I guess we were not looking at it from the same perspective. I was looking at it from the perspective of highly successful people.

    The frontiersmen that you are referring to, didn’t have much to loose anyway; so it would be a decent deal for them.

  64. @Chester:

    Those frontiersman not uncommonly had at least two wives, one in the trading village and one on the frontier, and BEYOND!

    I am curious as to why you seem to distinguish the frontiersmen from highly successful people. It makes me wonder how you define success.

    I personally would define it as “reaching your goal.”

  65. “Those frontiersman not uncommonly had at least two wives, one in the trading village and one on the frontier, and BEYOND!”

    Source?

  66. “There is one more kid that will never go to school never get to grow up never get yo be cool” Go feral man “keep on rockin in the free world”

  67. >but a man should want more for himself as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad.

    I don’t really know where this moral imperative comes from? Does it lead to a happier life?

  68. bnon – “I don’t really know where this moral imperative comes from? Does it lead to a happier life?”

    It leads to not living in caves, having a reliable food supply, and ultimately flush toilets. The morality is self evident, if not a happier life certainly a better life.

  69. @kfg

    Ha! Touché.

    I counter with:

    (Insert pic of starving third world indig which I’m to lazy to find and post here)

  70. He is the other side of the same coin. Without a surplus of food, he never would have come into existence in the first place. He starves because there is sufficient food to starve him.

    Stop sending him food from where there is a surplus and it’s true that he will die a few years before he would have otherwise, but the starvation will cease.

  71. @kfg

    But for me the question is whether the personal risk of gluttony is a greater negative than personal risk of starvation. I’ll risk the gluttony. As a former far ass I know how to mitigate that risk and why it exists.

    As well I think the risk of gluttony within society is more than compensated for by the existence of flush toilets. Indoor plumbing can only be a problem when the food scarcity problem is, in aggregate, solved.

  72. When I think back over the peak moments of life, many of them occurred when I was living toilet free.

    Conversely, many of the miserable moments occurred specifically because I was socially constrained to only shit where there was a flush toilet.

    I’m afraid I don’t find your morality evident at all.

  73. @Jafyk,

    I got the impression that these were laws created specifically for men. Upon viewing your links I see the they are general laws for all. Although, as I stated earlier these laws can end up being silly and against men but since the laws aren’t “men specific” it might be hard talking to someone about this and them taking it seriously without seeing it as another man trying to claim a law has been created to disadvantage men.

    The laws for statutory rape are general laws that should be applicable to both sexes equally, yet when a woman (female teacher for instance) is convicted of that crime the penalties are always substantially less than when a man is the perpetrator.

    There are many examples of this, but the most recent Yes Means Yes law is a shining example of how a generally applicable law is really written with the intent to punish men.

    https://twitter.com/Nero/status/681864918484828164

    Equally applicable this law would make Josie a rapist as well. That’s the base premise of equalism – presume all are equal, but situationally all are much less so.

  74. Kfg

    Custer? Not really a good example, as he is more of a celebrity.

    My family is from that area of the country and I have been to the spot where he was killed many, many times.

    Rumor around those parts is he also had a baby mommy in the Oglala Lakota Sioux and Yankton Sioux tribes as well.

  75. “The laws for statutory rape are general laws that should be applicable to both sexes equally . . .”

    I don’t find that morality evident either (and within my lifetime neither did much of anybody else). It smacks of believing that even the plumbing is the same.

    I do, however, believe in Rule #4, good and hard.

  76. If the law was equal than men would just have to say they were drunk too!

    Which is why it is not equal.

    Posted that drunk rape poster pic to my FB page, with the comment, “equality”

    My cousin, “you can’t rape if you don’t have a dick”

  77. @Cave Clown: ” . . . he is more of a celebrity.”

    That is why he is a quick and easy example. If you want to find reports of all the explorers and fur traders who had similar arrangements, you’ll have to go to the library and start reading all the accounts of barely known explorers and fur traders.

    The arrangements were not recorded in the town hall; in town they were considered sin and known only to a few men of like mind. They were only recorded, at the origins, in the tales of the frontier, the oral history. The Indians kept the tales best, as to them the arrangements were perfectly acceptable and thus not a secret.

  78. @Bad Painter: “I’ll get over it.”

    I don’t care whether you do or don’t. That’s your problem. The question to me is, will I?

    “Self-evident” moralities (“God is on our side,” or “We’re the government, and we’re here to help”) have a nasty tendency to plough under all those who can’t seem to see them.

  79. kfg – “The question to me is, will I?”

    Not my problem. That’s your burden.

    I have my own problems for which I expect you to care not at all. I’m gonna call us even in that respect.

    In the context of bnon’s original question I see a moral imperative in masculine creativity. The results my be good or bad or both for the creator or others, but the imperative exists. The immoral element is to deny the imperative. Which I think is what is the core of Rollo’s criticism of MGTOW. By actively refusing the biological imperative of being a man there is the risk of also failing to fulfill a man’s creative imperative.

    Likewise an extreme focus on sex may also cause a man to fail his creative imperative.

  80. I have no problem with the imperative. I only have a problem with your assignment of morality to it.

    I have an imperative to breath. It is not good. It is not evil. It just is.
    Were I to find not breathing evil I would find myself in conflict with the non-breathers, who I otherwise am perfectly happy to let go their own way, perhaps even help along their road now and again.

  81. @kfg
    I lost my virginity at14 to a16 yo girl she initiated this and made me her gigelo with gifts of cigarettes ,bike etc.If this had been common knowledge as it would be today i would have been charged w/ statutory rape.
    As a friend of mine was when caught with a willing participant.Around the same time and place

    Fat bottom girls do make the rockin world go round not complaining about that But the laws are definitely not equal. TMI

  82. @Badpainter
    “In the context of bnon’s original question I see a moral imperative in masculine creativity. The results my be good or bad or both for the creator or others, but the imperative exists. The immoral element is to deny the imperative. Which I think is what is the core of Rollo’s criticism of MGTOW. By actively refusing the biological imperative of being a man there is the risk of also failing to fulfill a man’s creative imperative.

    Likewise an extreme focus on sex may also cause a man to fail his creative imperative.”

    Creativity is to me the way to embrace the burden of performance.

    Sounds images and expressions
    http://www.soundtrack.net/content/article/?id=148

    Say less make more
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MTPxWkBgW6U

  83. @stuffinbox: “. . . the laws are definitely not equal.”

    They never have been, because they never can be. All equalizing them can do is create injustice, because men and women are not the same.

    Applying Rule #4 rams the injustice down the throats of those who intended the injustice to function only in one direction.

  84. Hypergamy is a fact. It is also a fact that men have always pushed against it.

    With no hypergamy a man would probably just hook up with the chick next door. Little or no drama, you bonded with the available female for life. But we wouldn’t have all of these nice things because there wouldn’t be incentive for men to work that hard.

    So men work hard in response to hypergamy. But when hypergamy is unchecked, it becomes an issue of throwing all men’s work down a giant sinkhole. Women will always try to extract resources, but with hypergamy unchecked men get too little reward for their work and (rightly) start to check out or form alternative societies.

    So the most efficient society includes hypergamy modified by civilizing forces (which are all invented by men.) Marriage was invented by men. It does help both men and women, because women as a whole are ultimately hurt by hypergamy too (though they will lack understanding of this.)

    So I would counter the “wish you were better” aphorisms with the fact that in some societies striving forward is a low percentage deal.

  85. @walawala: “Here’s a scenario I’ve faced with angry girls. They passive-aggressively try to disrupt projects or events I’ve created by not showing up when they’ve promised to help, by agreeing to help and then pushing various buttons and when I react use that to threaten not to follow through on some critical element to a project.”

    This is not a new script and sounds EXACTLY how women treat sex in most marriages. Passive aggressively disrupt your attempts, refuse to show up when they promised to do so, then pushing your buttons until you react so they have an excuse not to follow through.

  86. @Jayfyk

    Re: “In the same way I think the same should exist for the Red Pill. It has become a movement. My suggestion is for the writers here among us to write some kind of history of the red pill that will encompass the Manosphere, PUAs, red pill blogs, the guys behind the movements( David DeAngelo, Pook, Rollo, Roosh, Dalrock etc), terminologies, etc. Better one of us writing our own history than someone out there.”

    http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/no-mans-land/

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Manosphere-New-Hope-Masculinity-ebook/dp/B00D74DQ8E

  87. Heh, I’m gonna translate kfg so his points aren’t so Gandalfian to everyone.

    First, regarding inequality in laws. Suppose you passed a law dictating that each citizen could only have sex one time per month. Who would be primarily impacted by this? Consider that men have a much stronger and more continuous libido than women, generally speaking.

    This law disproportionately affects a) most men; and b) women paired with a (perceptively) hypergamously optimal man, as such a pairing tends to make her libido shoot through the roof.

    Second, regarding morality. Badpainter, kfg isn’t implying that you should adopt his preferences or views. He’s simply insisting that you don’t ask anyone to adopt yours, which is what happens when you define something as being an issue of morality rather than of personal preference.

    If showering is an issue of morality, then anyone who doesn’t shower isn’t just not to your preferences – they’re immoral. Guess what people tend to do to outgroups they perceive as being immoral.

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