Ladders & Snakes

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All men are created equal. What you do from there is up to you.

Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but always take the credit

Use the wisdom, knowledge, and legwork of other people to further your own cause. Not only will such assistance save you valuable time and energy, it will give you an aura of efficiency and speed. In the end your helpers will be forgotten and you will be remembered. Never do yourself what others can do for you.

When I was first introduced the the 48 Laws of Power the seventh was the one I had the most trouble accepting. I should really say I have trouble ’employing’ this law, because I’ve spent my entire life as an artist in some capacity and I’m very particular about the integrity and character of what it is I create. Obviously we have rights management and plagiarism laws to ensure against the more blatant ‘stealing’ of ideas, but a lot of what accounts for taking unwarranted credit occurs in more nuanced social situations.

It’s usually in these social circumstances that the average person makes use of Law 7. It’s hardly a law at all considering how naturally humans will use it. In a purely ethical sense it’s kind of a no-brainer; don’t assume credit that you’re undeserving of, but bending the perceptions of what we base our estimates on is where the real art comes in.

On a personal level, my investment in what I create and how that creation is received is what matters most to me. I understand the want for a quick reward, but I’m more concerned with a cheap imitation of what I’ve created debasing the quality and effort it took to create it. For instance, I’ve spent the better part of my career creating products and brands for people with a lot of money who really had no real investment in what it was I was making for them. All they wanted was a “product” that they could promote and sell.

Naturally the quality and integrity of that brand or product had to be something they could get behind (the horse must at least look like it could win), but not be held too personally accountable should that product end up being less than ideal. That’s a nice way of saying most salesmen I’ve known love a widget if it’s something that sells, but they’re never really on the hook for if it sucks – that accountability rests with the creator.

While we were dining after the Man in Demand conference we had discussion about exactly this dynamic. I make an effort to keep my business endeavors as businesslike as possible, but there are brands and things I create that I will personally invest myself into. I have to be very careful of this because it took me a long time (and more than a few failed attempts) to develop the discernment to know what’s worth putting myself into. However, it is especially satisfying for me to travel to another country and see one of my bottles in the duty-free stores at the airport and then be at a bar & grill somewhere on vacation and see one on the backbar.

I explained to the guys that what I create (and own) are not “products” to me. I dislike that term in that sense. I understand the utility of that word to salesmen; product is an easy unit of measure, but to the person creating that thing it’s a measure of the quality of their idea. To refer to that creation as a product impersonalizes that creation and allows the seller to remain at arms distance should the creation be wildly popular or a horrible failure.

That pride of ownership or the abandoning of it is a convenience for someone only invested in promoting that thing, but on some level it is never really theirs with the same responsibility as the one who created it. So ultimately the noncommittal position of selling, promoting, endorsing, etc. becomes an arrangement of convenience since the creator’s idea is where the ‘product’s’ strengths lie – and also where the real accreditation should too.

I’ve occasionally been accused by the ignorant on Twitter of being dependent on The Rational Male for my revenue. Most of my regular readers know what I do for a living and understand why that’s silly, but I don’t think it’s any real secret that what I write here and in the books is something very personal to me. The Rational Male has always been something I’ve invested myself in for obvious reasons, but I’ve always resisted turning it into a brand per se. There wont be any TRM T-Shirts coming in the foreseeable future.

I’m proud to be responsible for what I do here and I will never be beholden to making what I create into a ‘product’ for others to sell. One of the best things about being in the position I am is being anti-fragile enough to write what I believe is important while still keeping myself solvent on what I do apart from it. This allows me a much greater freedom than needing to write something to stay solvent.

Bargain Debasement

You’ll have to forgive my intro here, but it got me to thinking about a larger point I had in mind about how and why a man invests himself in various endeavors in life. I’ve worked hard to get to a point in life where I can say my personal successes (and failures) are my own and not the result of others’ funding or some fortunate dispensation, but rather based on the strength of ideas and responsibly owning them as the creator. Yet another reason I have a problem with Law 7; for as much as you may gain by employing it you rarely develop the insights that failing of your own accord teaches you. Experience teaches harsh, but it teaches best.

I think one of the reasons men find the popularized, feminist, social convention of ‘male privilege‘ so disingenuous is because we want to be appreciated for the sacrifices and perseverance needed to even have what looks like a meager, hand-out, kind of privilege. An atmosphere of default privilege debases what men have honestly invested themselves in. I’ve always held that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate their feminine-primary reality, but that’s not to discount men’s want to still be appreciated for them.

Whether that’s manifested in financial wealth, personal freedom, status or earned wisdom there’s a fundamental want for an appreciation that is rarely ever forthcoming. One reason I believe many men have a self-fulfilling definition of what it is to be Alpha is because they feel they’ve earned that identification through hard work and playing by a set of rules everyone else should, but get frustrated when their efforts go unappreciated, if not outright exploited. Again, Law 7. It’s galling to see others rewarded for exploiting what you think should be appreciated.

There’s a subset of MGTOW reader/writers who question every man’s motive for doing what it is he does thinking that appeasing women is at the root of every effort. Nothing is a genuinely inspired passion if the end result is women’s affectations. I covered this in Crisis of Motive, but what exactly is a genuine motive in that sense? If the byproduct result of my genuine interests is having sex with gorgeous women and/or a beautiful wife and a couple of well adjusted kids should that then discredit my unique talents and interests in what I do?

What if, after all a man does, he seeks an appreciation that will only rarely be unsolicited on his part? It’s one thing to command respect; it’s quite another to demand it.

Institutionalized Success

In this sense I think what is most egregious about the present state of marriage is that, for the greater part, all of the personal equity a man invests in himself over the course of his lifetime is only a divorce settlement away from being halved for him (if not more so). A man’s personal equity (not to be confused with relational equity) is only one false rape allegation away from ruin. This is the institutionalization of Law 7: that a woman can largely and legally get a man to do all the work and then take (at least half) the credit from his own success – or at least that’s the social expectation.

Granted, a woman can also be on the hook for her lack of character judgement should she pair with a man who becomes a burden to her. There are rare instances when a woman may find herself financially beholden to a bad choice in marriage, but then it’s a situation of that man’s genuine achievements in life and usually an inability to take his burden of performance and make the most of it. For the most part, the role of support falls to the man in societal expectations; women and feminized men are the ones supported.

In fact, it’s a point of shame for men to be supported in such a fashion. Whether that’s warranted of not, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves than what they started with. A needed provisioning from women only puts his achievements’ validity in question. Like it or not, men should avoid the perception of themselves not pulling their own weight.

Doing More

A while back I was asked why the Burden of Performance should be called a “burden” at all. Should it not be a “challenge” or a “opportunity”? All optimist semantics aside, it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.

I’m sure equalist critics will want to cast women into the same performance role, but in a uniquely male sense, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves. To be a ‘man’ is to produce in excess of what you consume – thus having the potential to support a family, an extended family, ensure security, give back to his community and/or reinvest that excess in greater endeavors or passions. While it may be part of the Feminine Imperative’s media campaign to popularize the character of the Strong Independent Woman® there is still room for women to expect the best out of a man while being provided for herself. In other words women have both the option to strive for independence while also retaining the option to be provided for by her husband or an LTR. And failing either of these, they retain an institutional right to Law 7.

Men must be independent resource providers, they must make more of themselves than what they began with, independent of dispensations or special privilege. There is no safety net, no other socially acceptable option to be provided for and still retain his being definitively a ‘man’. One of the hesitations I have with endorsing the Red Pill idea of going ‘Monk Mode’ is less about the isolation and more about the motivation men need to find within themselves to better themselves.

We look down on men who are dependent on women. Whether that’s financially, emotionally or physically, there is no option for dependence. One of the primary complaints professional, educated, independent women bemoan is their inability to pair off with a man of ‘like’ (or above) status. They’ll make euphemisms to characterize the men who would be their ‘equals’ who wont date them, but what they fail to acknowledge is the fundamental, root level truth of men’s burden of performance. For all the high-minded hopes of equalism, women’s Hypergamy still wants to filter for both sexual and provider acceptability in men.

Back in 2012 I based a post on Creative Intelligence from a study about how improvisational skills and creativity factored into a woman’s Hypergamous considerations. I wont quote it in length here, but suffice it to say that there is a measurable difference in how women perceive men with a trained or innate ability to improvise in, and overcome, times of adversity. As might be expected a man with a proven capacity to produce more than he consumes – especially when he’s had to come back from failure or misfortune – tends to be a more attractive mate choice that the man who chances into his own affluence.

Bear in mind that attraction and arousal are different sides of the Hypergamy coin (AF/BB), but many cross-cultural studies suggest that a capacity for creative, innovative, adaptive intelligence has been an evolutionarily selected-for socio-sexual trait in men – much less so in women. That’s important for the MGTOW critic to remember, it’s not as simple as a feminine-primary social order dictating men being slaves to their burden of performance. Just as gender is primarily biological, and not a social construct, neither is women’s evolved, Hypergamous sexual filtering.

Filters

Now, with the evolutionary basis of attraction in mind, it’s also important to consider that in our evolutionary past women evolved to take calculated risks in optimizing their Hypergamous sexual selectivity. The utility such Red Pill concepts as social proof, dread, Game, amused mastery, etc. are evidenced because they work with (or sometimes against) this Filter.

From The Curse of Potential:

Hypergamy wants a pre-made Man. If you look at my now infamous comparative SMP curve, one thing you’ll notice is the peak SMV span between the sexes.

Good looking, professionally accomplished, socially matured, has Game, confidence, status, decisive and Just Gets It when it comes to women. Look at any of the commonalities of terms you see in any ‘would like to meet’ portion of a woman’s online dating profile and you’ll begin to understand that hypergamy wants optimization and it wants it now. Because a woman’s capacity to attract her hypergamous ideal decays with every passing year, her urgency demands immediacy with a Man embodying as close to that ideal as possible in the now.

Hypergamy takes a big risk in betting on a man’s future potential to become (or get close to being) her hypergamous ideal, so the preference leans toward seeking out the man who is more made than the next.

The problem with this scenario as you might guess is that women’s SMV depreciates as men’s appreciates — or at least should appreciate. As I outlined above, the same hypergamy that constantly tests and doubts the fitness of a man in seeking its security also limits his potential to consistently satisfy it.

As I’ve mentioned in many prior posts, Hypergamy demands assurances. In fact so paramount is that need for Hypergamous certainty that women have evolved peripheral awareness to be sensitive to psychological and socio-sexual cues that confirm a man’s Hypergamous acceptability to her. Furthermore, so important is this need of assurance that in a society founded on feminine social primacy, the Feminine Imperative will legislate legal institutions to prevent men from misrepresenting themselves as a more optimal Hypergamous choice – as well as legislate penalties that insure women against both Hypergamous fraud and less than optimal mating choices.

As you might guess, the development and evolution of Game is one such psycho-social contingency men refine and use to workaround this Hypergamous filtering; and one that the imperative is still making efforts to restrict. However this doesn’t discount the way men have, in the past, built themselves up based on both social expectations, but also genuine interests and passions. Naturally, if a man is the genuine article and as a byproduct attracts women as a result of it, that might be preferable to ‘faking it till you’re making it’ – but if that’s the route you go be sure that you do in fact ‘make it’ because it’s what you feel passionate about.

Warnings

The primary reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to help men avoid having women’s institutionalization of Law 7 ruin their long term personal efforts and achievements. Many critics want to lock horns with me as to when a man’s Peak SMV generally occurs in life. That’s fine, but whether or not you agree with my accuracy in this regard the fact remains that it takes much more concentrated, long term effort to reach that peak than women’s fast-burn peak SMV. I don’t just mean this in terms of his professional status, but also his maturity, his acquired wisdom, his judgement of others’ character, the lessons learn from the bruises of his failures and near misses.

All of this requires an investment in oneself that simply the having of resources handed to you will never satisfy. That personal investment in oneself, as it should, amounts to a lot of internalized equity – an equity that will never be appreciated by women whose Hypergamy is looking for a pre-made man. Hypergamy doesn’t care about the effort and perseverance required to achieve the status you (should) enjoy at your SMV peak.

I’ll be the first to admit that when it comes to short term sexual selection, the most wanton sex I had was at the time in my life when I was the poorest. As an underemployed semi-rockstar I used hit it with the best of them, and from a purely sexual perspective, it’s true, criminal and Alpha cads will still fuck 80% of women. But there’s more to the worth of a man than just his notch count. Sexual experience constitutes a very important measure of that, but a man should want more for himself as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad.

Life experience and the benefits that a man should draw from it are personally valuable. In fact, men feel the equity of these efforts are so valuable that men will commit suicide at 5 times the rate of women; and in particular between the ages of 45-49. Why do you suppose that is? What assurances of long term security does the common man have for himself? What is he faced with when the plan he sets forth for himself in his life is destroyed in one precarious instance?

Once again, using the male deductive logic, it may seem a better option for him to hit the reset button than to be faced with having his life’s equity, his largest investment, his creation, stolen from him. This is a graphic illustration of men’s Burden of Performance, a burden women simply don’t face.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Sun – I howled when I saw that one, lol. I think they give good head because they think that somehow makes up for them being fat. And just for the record, I’ve had sex with exactly 2 fatties out of 100 or so (that I can recall) and I can say with authority that many fit and even skinny girls give great head too. In fact, this is an interesting topic cuz the truth is that the wilder the blowjob, the more a woman is into you and being submissive. I’ve taken to seeing BJs as a barometer of… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

I’ve banged one fat chick and yes she gave really good head

my wife is by far the best head I’ve ever had though, no lie. She’s skinny.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Regarding the burden of performance, I’m still unsure on whether I like it or not. Slightly restated… “Regarding the law of gravity, I’m still unsure on whether I like it or not”. Phillip K. Dick, science fiction author, famously observed that reality is what continues to exist even if you don’t believe in it. You’re disagreement is with the “is”, and you keep flailing around looking for the “ought”. You can insist on “ought” all you want, but it won’t come true and won’t be satisfying. Deal with “is”, because sooner or later you’ll have to do so. With regard… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

I just had to post this…. Hey, I saw two of her sistahs in a coffee joint today. Early 20’s fatties, one with a pretty good dye job, surrounding a couple of beta chodes, with a more normal sized but very loud mouthed girl in the mix. Pretty typical Millennial group-outing, with the girlies just full of themselves. One of the beta chodes sounded gay at first, but then I realized he’s more likely a straight orbiter who’s adopted the mannerisms of some girlies gay friend. It was sad to watch. The fatties are heading for diabetes, the beta chodes… Read more »

stuffinbox
5 years ago

Heahea bbubaby
Going up to the casino for dinner,may just park on the street,
Haapy new year

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Anonymous Wonder why so many lesbians / bi-girls are so fat? Why, it’s almost as if they harbor secret self loathing… That combined with a culture that discourages competition by moving the goalposts instead of making an effort to achieve goals, yes. @scribblerg Glad it got a laugh, wish I could take credit for it. It’s an oooooold image. Probably about 12-13 years by my count. It’s always made me chuckle. Enjoy your New Year’s. I’m a little under the weather (feels like the edge of a sinus infection) but I’m going to go ahead and hang with the crowd… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

“it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.” It seems to me that the way things work, culturally, this sentiment is pretty much true, – however traditionally, women do judge each other among themselves as to what they have made of their families – success-of-children-wise etc. – women do care about judging each other’s “character” among themselves, in this more indirect way, by way of extension in the sense that they know they are judged among the sisterhood by the character of their children. I think what is happening… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Wild Man

@Anonymous Reader “Phillip K. Dick, science fiction author, famously observed that reality is what continues to exist even if you don’t believe in it. You’re disagreement is with the “is”, and you keep flailing around looking for the “ought”. You can insist on “ought” all you want, but it won’t come true and won’t be satisfying. Deal with “is”, because sooner or later you’ll have to do so. With regard to MGTOW, I see that as a stage many men will go through in decoupling from lies. Some men get stuck in the anger stage for a long time…” http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vXqHJYz8NXo… Read more »

Max from Australia
Max from Australia
5 years ago

Advice from the Readers Please. I am a 44 year old white single father (16yo daughter and 14 yo son) currently seeing (for 3 months) a 26 year old from another culture, she says she loves me constantly. Her family are very opposed to our relationship and I feel like the right thing (integrity, character) might be to cut her loose so she can find someone her own age.. I married an older woman (6 years) when I was 24 and when all is said and done the age difference was what ended our relationship and was the cause of… Read more »

Max from Australia
Max from Australia
5 years ago

Plus 26 year old has been talking about going on anti-depression Meds. I havn’t told her about my loss of License

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@Max – I am wondering why you wouldn’t be concluding the BPD was the cause of most of the issues therein?

Max from Australia
Max from Australia
5 years ago

@WildMan – Yeah – shee married a young man in desperation because the more experienced ones coould see the red flags

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Max – Welcome, man. Sounds like you’ve got a lot on your plate. First a caveat – none of us are experts in shit here. Second, without knowing a lot more it’s hard to say anything. That said, I have a few observations. – The Red Pill is first and foremost an inside job. Before I moved into another serious relationship/LTR, I’d take some time to internalize the Red Pill, game, positive masculinity and to get “on mission” with your life. Again, I have no idea where you are with all that but I can tell you that once you… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  scribblerg

@Max from Australia
The license has happened to me. Working an getting it back.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Rugby – What “happened to” you exactly? Why was your license revoked? What did YOU do?

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  scribblerg

@scibblerg
I jay walked and upset a cop so I got triggered from when I meet cops the last time and one pushed me to the ground. This time I tried staying quiet and the cop though I was being to weird so he took my license. Apparently because I didn’t say the address on my license it counts as a lie so theirs a 340 dollar fee. Going to court on the 16th I rather don’t enjoy speaking around cops. I never seem to say the right thing.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@Max – hey, depending upon how long you were married, and how severe her BPD, that can be some very very crazy conditioning that you were probably subject to. That stuff is hard to deal with so as to get it out of the way, so as to get on with things without being hampered. You could say that BPD is the redpill truths about women, but as a very very extreme case. I had a BPD in my life, on and off for about 3 years (as an older man, some time after I divorced my wife of 20-years).… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Rugby – You fucked up, in other words.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@rugby11 – cops – I agree. They are not your friend. Every man should know this. But these fuckers try to present themselves that way (dark shit). Mostly cops just make a bad situation worse it seems (unless it is really really bad). Some of the cops I have had to deal with seem to love to fuck with a person – will lie – subvert their power over you – sneer at you – like a gang of thugs – getting some jollies that way – there are some dark individuals there. Guess they need individuals like this on… Read more »

enrique
enrique
5 years ago

@Rugby

Philip K. Dick was the man. Big fan, going way back. Total Recall, Blade Runner, Minority Report, Man in the High Castle, and basically, whether they admit it or not, Vanilla Sky.

enrique
enrique
5 years ago

Happy New Year everyone. Remember, in the “REAL” It’s a Wonderful Life, George Bailey: 1. Jumped off the bridge and died; 2. Had his estate liquidated to pay the attorney his wife had already contacted BEFORE he jumped; 3. Gets blamed by the entire town for the bank failure; 4. His wife winds up marrying Mr. Potter, 30 years her senior, and renames all his kids (e.g. Zuzu Potter); 5. His world traveler suitcase gets unceremoniously dumped on trash day; 6. Inspires the phrase, “Pulling a George Bailey”, meaning, a Beta Male who thinks he can actually achieve and overcome… Read more »

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  enrique

@scribblerg Yes I did. By the way thanks or teaching me here. I read you as a mentor and I appreciate it. I also see more of my bullshit from what you reflect on your levels of humanity. @Wildman Funny story I biked to moad from Utah Saint George on a Road bike and went through a town with native Americans who worked all week than got sent to jail for drinking and driving. I went to jail because I slept on someone’s porch and it was trespassing. So when I was there I had some good conversations mind you… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

To Rollo Tomassi and his family and all his readers.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WTCryF1J54Y

Jafyk
Jafyk
5 years ago

@SJF Praxeology, hmmm I’ve never heard that before. Sincerely, thank you for the correction/education. I’m glad that despite my poor expression you were able to understand what I was trying to communicate. Thanks for sharing that link. It’s nice to know that a form of my proposal is already out there. As far as the artistic side of things and your comment that talking to blue bill men who dont get to that point on their own being the same as talking to a brick wall…I get you. All I’m saying is that in the same way TV ads, media,… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Rugby – Thanks for seeing me that way. I do try but I also learn so much from the other guys here and your commentary too!

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Enrique – Perfect points about “It’s a Wonderful Life”. The movie is a promotion for “the nice guy wins in the end” fantasy which only serves the Blue Pill/Fi shaped world. ‘Cuz nice guys end up killing themselves in real life, either actually or metaphysically in their souls. They end up stupidly putting their own money into a failing bank. They rail at the powers that be and the “unfairness” of it all and see themselves heroically struggling against the evil rich etc. It’s a form of LARPing, seeing oneself this way as what you really are is being a… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“These are socially destructive memes, and oddly in concert with the ideas of Karl Marx who decried the “dissolution of moral bonds” brought on be unequal wealth.” Jefferson, who thought that the bedrock of America should be the independent farmer, fought Hamilton tooth and claw over the issue of a national bank. One of the things for which John Adams was criticised was driving to work in a four horse carriage, a vulgar public display of wealth, instead of a proper, republican two horse carriage. Vermont’s system of government by town hall meeting, most of whose members were independent farmers… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@KFG – Another swing and a miss from a confused leftist, and a very typical one. Jefferson was a proponent of the virtues of a pastoral life, and the values of farming and farmers versus that of the city and urban life. However, he never spoke about income inequality or claimed that wealth had a morally corrupting effect in the way that I described above, or that Capra did (note I drew that theme directly from Mr. Deeds). The anti-wealth meme you try and draw out of the Adams commentary is not anti-wealth or a claim that wealth is corrupting.… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . . a confused leftist . . . this is how radical egalitarians morally justify their encroachments on liberty . . .” You are very confused. Drop in at Vox Popoli sometime, where you can accuse me of being a racist, right wing fascist as well. ” . . . it’s this exact nexus of political and social thought which gives rise to early socialists (who emerge from the French revolution . . .” And where does the idea of the Tabula Rasa, so fundamental to the political philosophy of the contemporary Cultural Marxists, come from? ” .… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

” . . .overreaching in citing . . . a worry over class inequality.”

A Definite Beta Guy
5 years ago

Happy New Year, gentleman.

Welcomed the New Year with a group of 12 gals singing Bohemian Rhapsody. Woke up at 7:30 AM and started planning a trip to Acadia National Park sometime this year.

Hope your New Year brings you health and wealth.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Happy New Year, gentleman.”

Living in Upstate NY may give me a certain personal bias, but in this case I think the Persians got it right:

Call me on March 21.

Adam Man
5 years ago

Hypergamy doesn’t care… It’s like I have the goggles from the Roddy Roddy Piper Movie ‘They Live’.

http://thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/187800/lies_women_had_absolutely/135406/my_number/2

SJB
SJB
5 years ago

A prosperous New Year to you all: set up those targets then go knock them down.
.
Cheers.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@scribblerg

“It’s a form of LARPing, seeing oneself this way as what you really are is being a pathetic schmuck who nobody cares about the second you stop doing for others. Think about it, as a Red Pill man, who would you rather be? George Bailey or Mr. Potter? Easy answer for me today.”

I mean no disrespect, but why would you imply that it would be better to be Mr. Potter? He was characterized as a scoundrel. I don’t think redpill has anything at all to do with that.

just getting it
just getting it
5 years ago

Just for completeness sake, although I am a bit late with the M vs F sentencing comparisons.

A lesbian was convicted of our relatively new offence of posting porn of your ex. Somehow the court worked it that she didn’t do time. Men in the UK have already been jailed for this.

Women may think it’s good to have light sentencing but it means men can’t effectively make contracts with them because there is no enforcement.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Women don’t want contracts because . . . wait for it, wait for it . . .

Contracts can be enforced.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

“Women may think it’s good to have light sentencing but it means men can’t effectively make contracts with them because there is no enforcement.”

A strategy which will be countered with shaming, accusations of sexism, and diatribes about ‘boy’s clubs’ and glass ceilings.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

“Contracts can be enforced”

Marriage vows can’t, anymore. Guess how that happened.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Forge: “Marriage vows can’t, anymore. Guess how that happened.”

Women don’t want contracts.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@kfg – “Women don’t want contracts.” When I see this in action, it seems to me that the reason women dislike contracts is because they are out of their depth, in understanding precisely what contracts are, because women don’t seem to be in control of the ebb and flow of their powers of agency, in the same way as men. By agency I mean the belief that we have real abstract ability to take meaningful non-deterministic decisions. Men rely on ego to impose this willfullness in our worlds. Women’s willfullness is not like that it seems to me. Said poetically,… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@KFG – As for where “tabula rasa” comes from, just give it up already. Radical egalitarianism does not necessarily flow from classical liberalism. Humanist ideas do not necessarily give rise to believing in the perfectability of man. But now I understand your politics, and they are even more absurd than that of the radical egalitarians, got it. And no, I don’t waste my time at Vox Populi or other sites where pseudo-intellectuals masturbate. Me? I spent the morning listening to a lecture on the ’56 Suez crisis by an actual academic and leading authority on the topic. I’ve never spent… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Wildman – Who would you rather be? The guy who has a lot capital or the fool pouring his last savings on earth into a bank that’s having a run taken at it? Who would you rather be married to? Remember, that in the real world, guys who treat their money as George Bailey did in that movie usually end up with nothing.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Wild Man: Let me see if I can enhance your understanding by putting the case in rather less poetic terms:

Women don’t give a fuck about playing fair; they play to win.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@kfg – “Women don’t give a fuck about playing fair; they play to win.”

Yes, so? I guess you are agreeing with me? Do you agree women behave as such is because of the reasons I outlined?

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Wild Man

Women don’t give a fuck about playing fair; they play to win.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sMt3SzAH_i0
Kfg vs the Borg

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@scribblerg – the way I see it – by way of northern european masculinized morality, back in time, before agriculture, Mr. Potter’s ilk would have ended up as deadmeat, in the dead of night style. I have no respect whatsoever for such a man. IMO – he would deserve such fate (so that is the last guy I would want to model my life after – he is a sniveling cunt in my view). There are plenty of men around like this now. They behave like they are king-shit, but once you get to know them – and watch how… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Scribbler: “As for where “tabula rasa” comes from, just give it up already.” Annnnnnnnnd; dodge to the right. ” I’ve never spent a second considering your politics beyond the inane comments you make here, which I’ve taken at face value.” Then: You:“I’ve become an elitist. ” Me; addressing you directly:”Embrace the superiority, brother.” Now: You: ” . . . this is how radical egalitarians morally justify their encroachments on liberty . . .” Me: “WTF?” Do you have some sort of neurological problem which prevents transference to long term memory? “I spent the morning listening to a lecture on the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Wild Man: “Do you agree women behave as such is because of the reasons I outlined?”

I believe that women do not reject contract because they lack competence in the field. I believe they lack competence in the field because they reject contract.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

&kfg – “I believe that women do not reject contract because they lack competence in the field. I believe they lack competence in the field because they reject contract.”

I would take that to be in accordance with the rationale I outlined above, but you still have not specifically said so.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Wild Man: “I would take that to be in accordance with the rationale I outlined above . . .”

Well there ya go then.

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@kfg – I’m slowly getting to know you better. You do have a way of responding to other commenters, worded in such a way as could connote a challenge to the commenters conclusions. But then, after some exchanges it becomes clear that what you were after, all all long, was an appreciation for a different way of driving at the same point, like perhaps looking at the issue at hand, from a different perspective, yet coming to the same viewpoint. Why don’t you just start such comment exchanges with – “I mostly agree but if I look at this from… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Your style is partly because you like to mix it up a bit too, and like to go head-to-head challenge-wise – right?” It would be more accurate to say that I am not averse to it. “Why don’t you just start such comment exchanges with – “I mostly agree but . . .” In your case your style is such that I spend so much time trying to parse what you’ve said that I’m never quite sure whether I agree with it or not. More generically, you can tell someone that 2+2=4, but they won’t understand it for shit until… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Addendum:

I’ll also point out that “I mostly agree but . . .” is the passive-aggressive, consensus building speech of the women’s circle.

I feel no need to prophylactically apologize for having a differing viewpoint.

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Wild – I get it, but see it differently. Of course, Potter is presented as an awful human being and nobody would want to be him. I was playing around the the metaphor and mythology presented to merely make a point about the “nice guy” meme as presented by Capra in the movie and how destructive this “other focused” approach to life can be for a man. It was a tricky thing to try and do and perhaps I didn’t do it well. As for your larger commentary about how one sees other people and how one values life, I… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@kfg – one begins to wonder whether you are using this forum to judge yourself superior to others (as you alluded to in your most recent comment to scribbler). If so I would wonder why do you have a need to do that? Are you not instead interested in fair exchange? Another way to read some of your comments is that instead of your comments being worded in such a way as could connote a challenge to the commenter’s conclusions, that they instead could be connoted as a presumption of the commenter’s inferiority with respect to you (it is either… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@kfg

“I’ll also point out that “I mostly agree but . . .” is the passive-aggressive, consensus building speech of the women’s circle. I feel no need to prophylactically apologize for having a differing viewpoint.”

But I though we have already determined that you do not have a different viewpoint, for that particular issue discussed? So therefore the phrase would not be passive-aggressive. Not understanding you.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Wildman – you dance trepidatiously around thoughts and conclusions. kfg goes for the throat. Snatch his thought from the air like an arrow and see if you can use it somehow. Why is your focus on social points of order? The whole ‘I’m talking to you about this, I agree with this and not this, that’s a good thought but here’s where I think it’s flawed, I hate you, you bore me, you interest me,’ all that, is social posturing. kfg isn’t trying to be your friend. He’s trying to teach. “The tricky part is getting them to pick up… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“one begins to wonder whether you are using this forum to judge yourself superior to others (as you alluded to in your most recent comment to scribbler) . . .” That was made within a specific context which Scribbler is privy to, one in which my superiority is empirically demonstrated. There are other contexts in which it would be ridiculous. I cannot, for instance, high jump for shit. “Another way to read some of your comments is that instead of your comments being worded in such a way as could connote a challenge to the commenter’s conclusions, that they instead… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Forge: “you dance trepidatiously around thoughts and conclusions.”

It is the egalitarian way. To do otherwise would be to suggest that one point of view might be in some way superior to others.

It’s also a good way to avoid facing effective criticism.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Wildman “Another way to read some of your comments is that instead of your comments being worded in such a way as could connote a challenge to the commenter’s conclusions, that they instead could be connoted as a presumption of the commenter’s inferiority with respect to you (it is either got to be one or the other as is plain for everyone here to see I would think).” You’re forming false dichotomies. I can sorta see why. You tend to organize information in a very meticulous and exhaustive way, like a math problem. So I think you tend to anticipate… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Wild Man: “But I though we have already determined that you do not have a different viewpoint, for that particular issue discussed?”

I gave you my opinion. You determined that I don’t have a different viewpoint, post hoc.

@Forge: “Why is it so hard to get a man to pick up the pebbles?”

In that I will have to plead guilty to being a natural, so I really haven’t a clue. I can make certain intellectual observations, but they always seem to lead to another question that I can only answer with, “Damned if I know.”

Striver
Striver
5 years ago

George Bailey and the movie were a product of their time. That’s all. It was 1946. It’s a combination of depression hangover (Potter is exploitationist, Mellonesque liquidator, etc. who already has his money and is never affected by everyday concerns – plenty of that message at the time) and post WWII sentiment (there really are baddies out there, if we don’t take direct, positive action the world will be a far worse place.) It all would have been resonant with where a lot of people in the country were in 1946.

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Striver

@Forge the sky
“Here’s a reframe for the noobs – why do you think women spend so much energy manipulating us? Why do you think they’ve gotten so good at it that we need a paradigm shift to even see that it’s happening?

You don’t manipulate an inferior person. There’s no point, they have nothing to provide you.”
Complimentary

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@scribblerg “I was playing around the the metaphor and mythology presented to merely make a point about the “nice guy” meme as presented by Capra in the movie and how destructive this “other focused” approach to life can be for a man.” I see your point, and I agree. The way I try to understand my masculine nature now, is that the proclivity is to be “outer focused”, which is much different than “other focused” I think. I notice I can’t do justice to outer focus unless my internal condition is taken care of (having high respect for myself, which… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@kfg and @Forge – Alright guys, thanks for answering back, I’ve come back for a night out and have read both of your most recent comments several times now, trying like the devil to figure out what exactly you mean – and what I am getting, your-meaning-wise, is: kfg’s meaning as seconded by Forge: – the air of superiority I suspected in kfg’s delivery is probably a misinterpretation on my part then – kfg probably comes across that way because he is not engaging with me directly when he responds to something I have said, but is instead intending to… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

WIld Person … I’ve come back for a night …I am getting… … I suspected … he responds… I have said… me… I can’t understand …I have been assuming …me … he responds to something I said … I have taken it the wrong way… … I’ll keep … I read … … what I said in 2nd paragraph … you said, … me … you … me … he said. Since you didn’t disagree I will assume this is your meaning… Perhaps text pruning will help clear up things, make part of the problem easier to see. Perhaps not.… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
5 years ago

@Anonymous Reader – I see your point. In truth I talk alot more directly in person (you don’t need the social-grease-language around explicating intentions in person so much because it is much easier for people to directly perceive their mutual intentions in that type of exchange). When it is exchanging by way of written comments – man it is hard to read that stuff sometimes, you know … the intentions…..is the person agreeing with a point I’ve already invested in?, or changing the subject?, or disagreeing with a particular aspect but still attempting to understand my perspective?, or dismissing outright… Read more »

MonTueHappyDays
MonTueHappyDays
5 years ago

I’m a long time lurker and first time commenter. Thanks to Rollo and thanks to the men on here who share their experiences so we can learn from our collective successes and failures. Women are the biggest consumers in western society. Business will market to them. It’s up to individual men to effect their own life’s and the life’s of women around them. I don’t think the FI is going to be checked by a MI anytime soon. Any man who wants proof should just post a mildly disparaging comment about women on any social media platform. But since going… Read more »

Glengarry
Glengarry
5 years ago

No T-shirts is fine, but what about a nice pair of RM cuff links?

rugby11
rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  Glengarry

“Any man who wants proof should just post a mildly disparaging comment about women on any social media platform.
But since going RP I’ve realised I don’t want things to get easier, I want to get stronger”
Truth

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

No T-shirts is fine, but what about a nice pair of RM cuff links?

Did you mean to write “wrist cuffs”?

“Sorry, she can’t answer any calls or txts right now, she’s all tied up…”

D-Man
D-Man
5 years ago

Great post Rollo, it begs the question of why a man would marry if divorce laws mean he may end up with nothing (in the extreme but unfortunately common when children are involved) no roof over his head.

The good news is social media and sharing of experience are slowly getting the RP message out!

Dan

Jamesmn
Jamesmn
5 years ago

@leelee

For men who love their wives “thank you” means thank you for being here, thank you for being my wife or gf, thank you for doing this (task), and Im glad your here right now (all encompassing all at once). Not saying thank you normally means they either just forgot to say it, or something else is on their minds…

Jimmy B
Jimmy B
5 years ago

youtube.com/watch?v=bCgsrOtCBXM

rugby11
rugby11
4 years ago

My friend Thomas is no longer with me.
https://instagram.com/p/BHYt57KAqdm/
Going monk mode.

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