Ladders & Snakes

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All men are created equal. What you do from there is up to you.

Law 7: Get Others to Do the Work for You, but always take the credit

Use the wisdom, knowledge, and legwork of other people to further your own cause. Not only will such assistance save you valuable time and energy, it will give you an aura of efficiency and speed. In the end your helpers will be forgotten and you will be remembered. Never do yourself what others can do for you.

When I was first introduced the the 48 Laws of Power the seventh was the one I had the most trouble accepting. I should really say I have trouble ’employing’ this law, because I’ve spent my entire life as an artist in some capacity and I’m very particular about the integrity and character of what it is I create. Obviously we have rights management and plagiarism laws to ensure against the more blatant ‘stealing’ of ideas, but a lot of what accounts for taking unwarranted credit occurs in more nuanced social situations.

It’s usually in these social circumstances that the average person makes use of Law 7. It’s hardly a law at all considering how naturally humans will use it. In a purely ethical sense it’s kind of a no-brainer; don’t assume credit that you’re undeserving of, but bending the perceptions of what we base our estimates on is where the real art comes in.

On a personal level, my investment in what I create and how that creation is received is what matters most to me. I understand the want for a quick reward, but I’m more concerned with a cheap imitation of what I’ve created debasing the quality and effort it took to create it. For instance, I’ve spent the better part of my career creating products and brands for people with a lot of money who really had no real investment in what it was I was making for them. All they wanted was a “product” that they could promote and sell.

Naturally the quality and integrity of that brand or product had to be something they could get behind (the horse must at least look like it could win), but not be held too personally accountable should that product end up being less than ideal. That’s a nice way of saying most salesmen I’ve known love a widget if it’s something that sells, but they’re never really on the hook for if it sucks – that accountability rests with the creator.

While we were dining after the Man in Demand conference we had discussion about exactly this dynamic. I make an effort to keep my business endeavors as businesslike as possible, but there are brands and things I create that I will personally invest myself into. I have to be very careful of this because it took me a long time (and more than a few failed attempts) to develop the discernment to know what’s worth putting myself into. However, it is especially satisfying for me to travel to another country and see one of my bottles in the duty-free stores at the airport and then be at a bar & grill somewhere on vacation and see one on the backbar.

I explained to the guys that what I create (and own) are not “products” to me. I dislike that term in that sense. I understand the utility of that word to salesmen; product is an easy unit of measure, but to the person creating that thing it’s a measure of the quality of their idea. To refer to that creation as a product impersonalizes that creation and allows the seller to remain at arms distance should the creation be wildly popular or a horrible failure.

That pride of ownership or the abandoning of it is a convenience for someone only invested in promoting that thing, but on some level it is never really theirs with the same responsibility as the one who created it. So ultimately the noncommittal position of selling, promoting, endorsing, etc. becomes an arrangement of convenience since the creator’s idea is where the ‘product’s’ strengths lie – and also where the real accreditation should too.

I’ve occasionally been accused by the ignorant on Twitter of being dependent on The Rational Male for my revenue. Most of my regular readers know what I do for a living and understand why that’s silly, but I don’t think it’s any real secret that what I write here and in the books is something very personal to me. The Rational Male has always been something I’ve invested myself in for obvious reasons, but I’ve always resisted turning it into a brand per se. There wont be any TRM T-Shirts coming in the foreseeable future.

I’m proud to be responsible for what I do here and I will never be beholden to making what I create into a ‘product’ for others to sell. One of the best things about being in the position I am is being anti-fragile enough to write what I believe is important while still keeping myself solvent on what I do apart from it. This allows me a much greater freedom than needing to write something to stay solvent.

Bargain Debasement

You’ll have to forgive my intro here, but it got me to thinking about a larger point I had in mind about how and why a man invests himself in various endeavors in life. I’ve worked hard to get to a point in life where I can say my personal successes (and failures) are my own and not the result of others’ funding or some fortunate dispensation, but rather based on the strength of ideas and responsibly owning them as the creator. Yet another reason I have a problem with Law 7; for as much as you may gain by employing it you rarely develop the insights that failing of your own accord teaches you. Experience teaches harsh, but it teaches best.

I think one of the reasons men find the popularized, feminist, social convention of ‘male privilege‘ so disingenuous is because we want to be appreciated for the sacrifices and perseverance needed to even have what looks like a meager, hand-out, kind of privilege. An atmosphere of default privilege debases what men have honestly invested themselves in. I’ve always held that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate their feminine-primary reality, but that’s not to discount men’s want to still be appreciated for them.

Whether that’s manifested in financial wealth, personal freedom, status or earned wisdom there’s a fundamental want for an appreciation that is rarely ever forthcoming. One reason I believe many men have a self-fulfilling definition of what it is to be Alpha is because they feel they’ve earned that identification through hard work and playing by a set of rules everyone else should, but get frustrated when their efforts go unappreciated, if not outright exploited. Again, Law 7. It’s galling to see others rewarded for exploiting what you think should be appreciated.

There’s a subset of MGTOW reader/writers who question every man’s motive for doing what it is he does thinking that appeasing women is at the root of every effort. Nothing is a genuinely inspired passion if the end result is women’s affectations. I covered this in Crisis of Motive, but what exactly is a genuine motive in that sense? If the byproduct result of my genuine interests is having sex with gorgeous women and/or a beautiful wife and a couple of well adjusted kids should that then discredit my unique talents and interests in what I do?

What if, after all a man does, he seeks an appreciation that will only rarely be unsolicited on his part? It’s one thing to command respect; it’s quite another to demand it.

Institutionalized Success

In this sense I think what is most egregious about the present state of marriage is that, for the greater part, all of the personal equity a man invests in himself over the course of his lifetime is only a divorce settlement away from being halved for him (if not more so). A man’s personal equity (not to be confused with relational equity) is only one false rape allegation away from ruin. This is the institutionalization of Law 7: that a woman can largely and legally get a man to do all the work and then take (at least half) the credit from his own success – or at least that’s the social expectation.

Granted, a woman can also be on the hook for her lack of character judgement should she pair with a man who becomes a burden to her. There are rare instances when a woman may find herself financially beholden to a bad choice in marriage, but then it’s a situation of that man’s genuine achievements in life and usually an inability to take his burden of performance and make the most of it. For the most part, the role of support falls to the man in societal expectations; women and feminized men are the ones supported.

In fact, it’s a point of shame for men to be supported in such a fashion. Whether that’s warranted of not, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves than what they started with. A needed provisioning from women only puts his achievements’ validity in question. Like it or not, men should avoid the perception of themselves not pulling their own weight.

Doing More

A while back I was asked why the Burden of Performance should be called a “burden” at all. Should it not be a “challenge” or a “opportunity”? All optimist semantics aside, it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.

I’m sure equalist critics will want to cast women into the same performance role, but in a uniquely male sense, it is men who are expected to make more of themselves. To be a ‘man’ is to produce in excess of what you consume – thus having the potential to support a family, an extended family, ensure security, give back to his community and/or reinvest that excess in greater endeavors or passions. While it may be part of the Feminine Imperative’s media campaign to popularize the character of the Strong Independent Woman® there is still room for women to expect the best out of a man while being provided for herself. In other words women have both the option to strive for independence while also retaining the option to be provided for by her husband or an LTR. And failing either of these, they retain an institutional right to Law 7.

Men must be independent resource providers, they must make more of themselves than what they began with, independent of dispensations or special privilege. There is no safety net, no other socially acceptable option to be provided for and still retain his being definitively a ‘man’. One of the hesitations I have with endorsing the Red Pill idea of going ‘Monk Mode’ is less about the isolation and more about the motivation men need to find within themselves to better themselves.

We look down on men who are dependent on women. Whether that’s financially, emotionally or physically, there is no option for dependence. One of the primary complaints professional, educated, independent women bemoan is their inability to pair off with a man of ‘like’ (or above) status. They’ll make euphemisms to characterize the men who would be their ‘equals’ who wont date them, but what they fail to acknowledge is the fundamental, root level truth of men’s burden of performance. For all the high-minded hopes of equalism, women’s Hypergamy still wants to filter for both sexual and provider acceptability in men.

Back in 2012 I based a post on Creative Intelligence from a study about how improvisational skills and creativity factored into a woman’s Hypergamous considerations. I wont quote it in length here, but suffice it to say that there is a measurable difference in how women perceive men with a trained or innate ability to improvise in, and overcome, times of adversity. As might be expected a man with a proven capacity to produce more than he consumes – especially when he’s had to come back from failure or misfortune – tends to be a more attractive mate choice that the man who chances into his own affluence.

Bear in mind that attraction and arousal are different sides of the Hypergamy coin (AF/BB), but many cross-cultural studies suggest that a capacity for creative, innovative, adaptive intelligence has been an evolutionarily selected-for socio-sexual trait in men – much less so in women. That’s important for the MGTOW critic to remember, it’s not as simple as a feminine-primary social order dictating men being slaves to their burden of performance. Just as gender is primarily biological, and not a social construct, neither is women’s evolved, Hypergamous sexual filtering.

Filters

Now, with the evolutionary basis of attraction in mind, it’s also important to consider that in our evolutionary past women evolved to take calculated risks in optimizing their Hypergamous sexual selectivity. The utility such Red Pill concepts as social proof, dread, Game, amused mastery, etc. are evidenced because they work with (or sometimes against) this Filter.

From The Curse of Potential:

Hypergamy wants a pre-made Man. If you look at my now infamous comparative SMP curve, one thing you’ll notice is the peak SMV span between the sexes.

Good looking, professionally accomplished, socially matured, has Game, confidence, status, decisive and Just Gets It when it comes to women. Look at any of the commonalities of terms you see in any ‘would like to meet’ portion of a woman’s online dating profile and you’ll begin to understand that hypergamy wants optimization and it wants it now. Because a woman’s capacity to attract her hypergamous ideal decays with every passing year, her urgency demands immediacy with a Man embodying as close to that ideal as possible in the now.

Hypergamy takes a big risk in betting on a man’s future potential to become (or get close to being) her hypergamous ideal, so the preference leans toward seeking out the man who is more made than the next.

The problem with this scenario as you might guess is that women’s SMV depreciates as men’s appreciates — or at least should appreciate. As I outlined above, the same hypergamy that constantly tests and doubts the fitness of a man in seeking its security also limits his potential to consistently satisfy it.

As I’ve mentioned in many prior posts, Hypergamy demands assurances. In fact so paramount is that need for Hypergamous certainty that women have evolved peripheral awareness to be sensitive to psychological and socio-sexual cues that confirm a man’s Hypergamous acceptability to her. Furthermore, so important is this need of assurance that in a society founded on feminine social primacy, the Feminine Imperative will legislate legal institutions to prevent men from misrepresenting themselves as a more optimal Hypergamous choice – as well as legislate penalties that insure women against both Hypergamous fraud and less than optimal mating choices.

As you might guess, the development and evolution of Game is one such psycho-social contingency men refine and use to workaround this Hypergamous filtering; and one that the imperative is still making efforts to restrict. However this doesn’t discount the way men have, in the past, built themselves up based on both social expectations, but also genuine interests and passions. Naturally, if a man is the genuine article and as a byproduct attracts women as a result of it, that might be preferable to ‘faking it till you’re making it’ – but if that’s the route you go be sure that you do in fact ‘make it’ because it’s what you feel passionate about.

Warnings

The primary reason I wrote Preventive Medicine was to help men avoid having women’s institutionalization of Law 7 ruin their long term personal efforts and achievements. Many critics want to lock horns with me as to when a man’s Peak SMV generally occurs in life. That’s fine, but whether or not you agree with my accuracy in this regard the fact remains that it takes much more concentrated, long term effort to reach that peak than women’s fast-burn peak SMV. I don’t just mean this in terms of his professional status, but also his maturity, his acquired wisdom, his judgement of others’ character, the lessons learn from the bruises of his failures and near misses.

All of this requires an investment in oneself that simply the having of resources handed to you will never satisfy. That personal investment in oneself, as it should, amounts to a lot of internalized equity – an equity that will never be appreciated by women whose Hypergamy is looking for a pre-made man. Hypergamy doesn’t care about the effort and perseverance required to achieve the status you (should) enjoy at your SMV peak.

I’ll be the first to admit that when it comes to short term sexual selection, the most wanton sex I had was at the time in my life when I was the poorest. As an underemployed semi-rockstar I used hit it with the best of them, and from a purely sexual perspective, it’s true, criminal and Alpha cads will still fuck 80% of women. But there’s more to the worth of a man than just his notch count. Sexual experience constitutes a very important measure of that, but a man should want more for himself as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad.

Life experience and the benefits that a man should draw from it are personally valuable. In fact, men feel the equity of these efforts are so valuable that men will commit suicide at 5 times the rate of women; and in particular between the ages of 45-49. Why do you suppose that is? What assurances of long term security does the common man have for himself? What is he faced with when the plan he sets forth for himself in his life is destroyed in one precarious instance?

Once again, using the male deductive logic, it may seem a better option for him to hit the reset button than to be faced with having his life’s equity, his largest investment, his creation, stolen from him. This is a graphic illustration of men’s Burden of Performance, a burden women simply don’t face.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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rugby11
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rugby11

“Doing More

A while back I was asked why the Burden of Performance should be called a “burden” at all. Should it not be a “challenge” or a “opportunity”? All optimist semantics aside, it is uniquely men whose character is judged on what he started with and what he made of himself.”
Check out the book the road to character by david brooks.
Rollo you have enriched my life so much. I’m more human and decent than I’ve ever been. I appreciate you

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

as a man, as a father, as leader, as a creator, even as a cad
http://www.amazon.com/The-Road-Character-David-Brooks/dp/081299325X

HowlingManTodd
Guest
HowlingManTodd

What’s the feminist solution to rape? Simple: train men not to rape.

But when a feminist is being beaten and raped by her boyfriend, the simple solution is to leave, right?

No, “it’s not simple”: https://www.instagram.com/p/_2AwgCQzty/

LeeLee
Guest

I think it’s really, really difficult for women to understand men’s need to be appreciated and maybe by extension thanked. I notice my husband thanking me for things I don’t feel I deserve to be thanked for — for example he thanks me for making dinner — I’m a housewife, being thanked for making dinner feels hollow, redundant and maybe even patronizing. It means almost nothing to me, it’s confusing, but I realize that what it is, is something about him and how he would like to be treated, some kind of need that he has that I can’t even… Read more »

Bachelorocles
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Bachelorocles

@LeeLee You don’t feel the need to perform because you’ve been raised to feel entitled to have a man work for you and pay for things for you. You’ve been conditioned to believe you naturally deserve it because you’re a woman and therefore special. You’ve even been conditioned to believe you are sacrificing by not working and that your husband therefore is in your debt because he’s had the privilege of experiencing the glory of work (what is, in fact, for most men soul crushing drudgery and endless, petty competition). If you were to divorce your husband you would be… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong

@Rollo

All they’re asking for there is complete and total deference to the vagina. Clearly the grounds for a healthy relationship.

newlyaloof
Guest

Wives are like snakes; husbands are like their scales that help them move freely.

The snake doesn’t really care how hard the scales have to work for each movement afforded them, only that the scales provide benefit.

Best case scenario, a good snake like LeeLee rubs some lotion on her scales, then rolls her eyes when the scales react with exhausted exhalations of gratitude. lol.

Switching analogies LeeLee, your husband thanks you because a nice cooked meal is equal to you not placing the bottom of the ladder on an escalator while he’s climbing.

Darwinian Arminian
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Darwinian Arminian

There won’t be any TRM T-shirts coming in the foreseeable future.

. . . Aaww hell, Rollo, just hearing about that possibility makes me want to buy one!

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky

Re: the OP

In a nutshell – men are beings of process. Women are uninterested in process, they care about results.

Become a master of process to attain desired results. Don’t expect non-internal sources of satisfaction for process.

This isn’t just about women either. It’s not even just about being a better, more resilient man. Attaching yourself to outcomes rather than enjoying process is a surefire way to end up unhappy, regardless of success or failure.

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@Forge the sky
“Attaching yourself to outcomes rather than enjoying process is a surefire way to end up unhappy, regardless of success or failure.”
To me the process is true intimacy

Jafyk
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Jafyk

Rollo can you please post a link that has to do with men legally having to represent their optimization for hypergamy. A lot of times when I mention such points to those not red pill aware, they tend to respond to it as hear say. Thanks.

Anonymous Reader
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Anonymous Reader

David Brooks? The guy who decided he liked a Presidential candidate based on the crease of his trousers? Why would I take any advice from a mangina like that?

rugby11
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rugby11

I was reading him because any time someone offers me a book as a form of composure I drop what I’m reading and attempt to the suggested work. I see your point as I’m just started the book.

rugby11
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rugby11

@anonymous reader
Ok how about the redpill and this
https://theriseandfallofthehumanempire.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/ishmael_by_daniel_quinn.pdf

Forge the Sky
Guest
Forge the Sky

@LeeLee Good. Ultimately there will always be a gap between the male and the female experience, but we can counteract that to a degree by knowing – even if not fully understanding – what lies on the other side. “I think it’s really, really difficult for women to understand men’s need to be appreciated and maybe by extension thanked.” It’s pretty difficult for most men to understand women’s need to admire the man they’re with. Just some men stumble into being admirable (by a woman’s standards) and it ‘just works.’ I said something like this last thread, but men’s need… Read more »

uncarved
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uncarved

powerful stuff rollo.

Eyes Open
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Eyes Open

@lee lee I dont really understand, appreciation and gratitude are basic tenants of friendship let alone male female relations I was taught, and believe, that by not accepting thank yous or praise you are actually stopping the love and affection from coming towards you and in return you are hurting the other by not accepting their attempts at love In my experience please and thank you is basic to respecting the efforts of others. Whether its their job, or their role respect goes further in reality and that is conveyed by appreciation and concern. Maybe its just you and the… Read more »

rugby11
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rugby11

Can not escape the performance
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eCkYlCBFV6w
Every man isn’t meant to have it easier just a betterment of self.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaDrnxp3L0
Honor courage mastery strength no complaining or criticizing or condemning
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kFT083GhycM

Andy
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Andy

Imagine how different the world would be if every boy was raised with the knowledge that the only thing you need to be attractive to women is to derive your self worth internally and that any societally defined external “deficiency” can be overcome with game.

Blaximus
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Blaximus

LeeLee, ” I notice my husband thanking me for things I don’t feel I deserve to be thanked for — for example he thanks me for making dinner — I’m a housewife, being thanked for making dinner feels hollow, redundant and maybe even patronizing. It means almost nothing to me, it’s confusing, but I realize that what it is, is something about him and how he would like to be treated, some kind of need that he has that I can’t even fathom.” Great example of how men and women see and react to things differently, and why every man… Read more »

LeeLee
Guest

@Rollo, yep, I’ve seen that one going around. Ugh, self recognition 🙁 @Forge the Sky — I really like what you’re saying about how if a man is lacking respect, it feels like an existential threat on like a deep, hard wired, subconscious level. I think women go through the exact same thing when we don’t feel beautiful — and probably for the same evolutionary reason. I think you’re on to something with the admiration versus appreciation thing. It means a lot to me when my husband compliments my food specifically and expresses his enjoyment of my cooking. Very different… Read more »

SJF
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SJF

@Eyes Open December 28th, 2015 at 7:22 pm @Blaximus and LeeLee I’m kind of clueless in this discussion about not accepting thank yous. Very ignorant and retarded per se. I feel like LeeLee all the time. Most of you guys know my profession, but in the spirit of (YaReally’s advice) about not giving personal clues, my “clients” always and frequently give me a heartfelt thank you for the diagnosis and treatment I give them. All the time. As I walk out of the the room, I know, dammit, that I am supposed to say “my pleasure” to help you, “you… Read more »

okrahead
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For women, the burden of performance used to be child bearing and rearing. Consider the Old Testament story of Hannah, or the New Testament admionition that women will be saved in child bearing. Our society has removed this side of the burden of performance from women, with what will be disastrous results for Western Civilization.

okrahead
Guest

Regarding child bearing as women’s traditional burden of performance consider as well the example of Calphirnia, who despite having landed the Alpha of all Alphas is publicly humiliated for being barren at the beginning of Shakespeare’s play. And yes, I know, old books…. But that’s my point.

Blaximus
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Blaximus

@SJF, Hey Bruh, I don’t think it’s a personality defect at all. It’s individualistic. My only point to LeeLee is in the spirit that marriage is different. It’s 2 people living together and dealing with each other. Constantly. Some things MUST get sorted out for peace and happy’s to reign supreme. I’ve seen enough of the nasty, bad side of people in my life. I’ve mentioned that I was raised to acknowledge people’s appreciation and thanks, but after seeing how shitty people can be when they put their minds to it, I really do appreciate nice gestures, or even people… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus

@LeeLee’

” Though I suspect that most women who think they are upset about not being thanked for what they do are really upset about something else that they can’t put their finger on — like not getting attention.”

This is why I often laugh at my wife, initially, when she’s upset for..whatever.

It’s the emotion without definition. I cannot soothe that particular beast, nor do I try. Neither do I take it personally. It’s like a fire that I must let burn itself out, lest it grow to consume both of us. No appeasement, no condescension. Barely acknowledged. No problem.

Scribblerg
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Scribblerg

@Hmmm…Seems this hit a big trigger for you, Rollo. Are you clear that the law talks about things others can actually do for you? Nobody else can do “creation” in the artistic sense for you, it’s axiomatic that such a thing is either your’s or not. But we do many useful things that are not artistic creation. Like selling for example. I’m also left wondering if you’ve ever had a quota and had to sell a product some primadona “creator” hatched that was not that great? Someone has to ring the cash register… For me Law 7 is about maximizing… Read more »

Striver
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Striver

I usually thanked my ex for making dinner because she was a SAHM, I worked, so I recognized the fact that I had dinner cooked for me. She was my only wife to date, I may or may not have that situation again, have a woman cook meals for me on a regular basis. I say thank you out of common courtesy. Not because I’m a beta simp or whatever. I know women by their nature have to find fault with every situation. So I’m sure they “bristle” at being thanked for something, Big surprise. The only thing worse than… Read more »

The Dude Abides
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The Dude Abides

Spot on, as usual. I wish I’d known about the burden of performance 20 years ago. And it is a burden because women have no commensurate burden themselves. Yes, they need to stay attractive and feminine to keep a man after the peak, but provided she does that it’s easy street. A man must avoid becoming a beta for all his days or suffer the mental and emotional consequences. And yet the whole of our American society not only ignores this truth, it actively propagandizes to hide the truth. No matter how much a man personally succeeds, he is merely… Read more »

stuffinbox
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stuffinbox

@ Rollo Once again an amazing post.How do you find the time?Where did I leave that damn dictionary? My wife and I have been legally married 34 years.In that time I have been the primary provider ie; food shelter clothing transportation emotional support medical expenses ect. Have started many small business ventures and carried three to fruition.This required a great expenditure of time and attention,also much sacrifice of comfort and non necessities. When a man masters a trade or skill and then markets this trade some things happen if he is successful one is he has to give it away… Read more »

SJF
Guest
SJF

What an engaging discussion. Although I’m in a fog as what it is all about. Busy day at work. Almost as if Blax is on one shoulder and Scribbler is on the other shoulder saying how to do things the right way for the woman/women. I just got off the phone with my mother in an engaging discussion about a myriad of things. As we ended the discussion after a few false ends, she said “Thank you for calling”. And I said some thing like “Yup, talk to you later”. As I type this I realize l love her as… Read more »

Blaximus
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Blaximus

I love women. Can’t help it. It will never change. A man must take care to always put himself first, and by ” himself “, I’m speaking of what I consider to be the Total Man. It’s easy and understandable that we males can get sidetracked in our self missions by women. there is a strong, natural pull towards the feminine. A man building himself FIRST will encounter less problems from women as a whole. I know, easier said than done, but it is imperative. In the current society we find ourselves in, it is important that men become so… Read more »

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

SJF, True story – When my Dad was in his mid 40’s, I started hugging him. We’d never hugged before that. Just wasn’t done. So I’d just walk up to him and grab him. Initially I got resistance. lol. Same with my Mom. I couldn’t recall being hugged when I was growing up. Not by her. So I started grabbing her too. Lately I’ve started hugging everyone that means anything to me. Why? I’m not sure. My ulterior motive is that I want to communicate that I care deeply. I’m not clear where this came from. One day I may… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky

@Blax “This is why I often laugh at my wife, initially, when she’s upset for..whatever. It’s the emotion without definition. I cannot soothe that particular beast, nor do I try. Neither do I take it personally. It’s like a fire that I must let burn itself out, lest it grow to consume both of us. No appeasement, no condescension. Barely acknowledged. No problem.” She pings off YOU to see how she should feel. She has emotions about lots of shit and she knows it. If you think it’s no big deal, even as it’s clear that you’re actually listening to… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky

@Striver

Hypergamy is designed to find satisfaction. It finds satisfaction in a dude who’s a ruthless murderous motherfucker, who won’t hesitate to manipulate the medicine man or tear out an insubordinate bastard’s colon.

How well could such an instinct be satisfied in a world where a punch can be a felony? Where a whimpered ‘no’ can stop his amorous advances cold, or else chain him for decades? Where any man who has a hope of being BB is prohibited from satisfying the least part of the vicious alpha fantasy?

SJF
Guest
SJF

@Blax “Lately I’ve started hugging everyone that means anything to me. Why? I’m not sure. My ulterior motive is that I want to communicate that I care deeply.” Perhaps you have achieved the goal of “A man building himself FIRST”, “what you consider to be the Total Man”, perhaps, yes, you are a man in full. (And paradoxically you are not currently foolish enough to be seeking a completion in life.) You “have“. So you are not afraid to give a metaphorical hug. I actually felt that same feeling toward my mother as she arrived at our home for a… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@Scribblerg “the best way to thank them was to deliver real masculine value” Holy hell that’s beautiful @Blaximus “Never stop. The world outside of your door will never give more of a fuck about you than you give about yourself.” Self reliance is the best antidote to all primal failings of the society we live in. @Forge the sky “How well could such an instinct be satisfied in a world where a punch can be a felony? Where a whimpered ‘no’ can stop his amorous advances cold, or else chain him for decades? Where any man who has a hope… Read more »

GRock
Guest
GRock

These parts seem almost clairvoyant to the direction our nation is pointed, but not to say the primary elements haven’t always existed: “Furthermore, so important is this need of assurance that in a society founded on feminine social primacy, the Feminine Imperative will legislate legal institutions to prevent men from misrepresenting themselves as a more optimal Hypergamous choice – as well as legislate penalties that insure women against both Hypergamous fraud and less than optimal mating choices.” ~AND~ “All of this requires an investment in oneself that simply the having of resources handed to you will never satisfy. That personal… Read more »

Carl
Guest
Carl

@ HowlingManTodd

https://www.instagram.com/p/_2fp-rwzjs/

BetaBoy….

Thanks to Red Pill, I can see.

She does not care, he has to hold her, her body language says “just friends”.

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

If Law 7 wasn’t rigorously enforced, hell, there’d be no university professors (European kind, heads of department etc.)

walawala
Guest
walawala

Warning men to be aware of involving their romantic interests in personal projects or businesses is salient advice. Working with or relying on a woman’s support for any venture is asking for drama. Here’s a scenario I’ve faced with angry girls. They passive-aggressively try to disrupt projects or events I’ve created by not showing up when they’ve promised to help, by agreeing to help and then pushing various buttons and when I react use that to threaten not to follow through on some critical element to a project. It’s this idea of a woman ingratiating and inserting herself into my… Read more »

Driver
Guest
Driver

You have to laugh at women when you hear the equality argument and the burden of performance that is actually placed on men (but not women). I always see women as “large children” because while they want to play the role of a man they have no idea what it truly takes to be the man (they never will, either). The feminist movement over the last three decades has now placed women in what should be the roles of leaders (political, business, etc…). Like any new position, you can see women making “rookie” mistakes because they want to be leaders… Read more »

LeeLee
Guest

@SJF @Scribblerg, thanks so much for the kind words. It means a lot. I love this blog and the discussion here, it helps me understand myself and my friends better, and understand my husband’s world and what he goes through. I’ve always felt like there was something just very off about most relationship advice and analysis, like an agenda that was a wall blocking off the full truth, or making “experts” read off this one script, and that’s frustrated me my whole life not because I’m an exceptionally moral person but maybe because I’m a romantic person and it felt… Read more »

Bromeo
Guest
Bromeo

“the same hypergamy that constantly tests and doubts the fitness of a man in seeking its security also limits his potential to consistently satisfy it.”

This.

enrique
Guest
enrique

There’s so much here that is worthy, from Rollo’s post to the comments. Something that hit home for me: @Scribblerg, your comments about being unappreciated (what guy has NOT felt this at work?) I am just “post-mid career” in my career (a few years from retirement if I want) within my organization. A long time buddy of mine that I have swung around to Red Pill, is still trying to work “within the system” based upon the Old Books. He’s a white guy who’s literally worked twice as hard as many minorities who have surpassed him, and he has been… Read more »

newlyaloof
Guest

@Enrique, that’s a friend field report I’d like to read more of. I broke 90k this year (that includes side work and passive income I’ve been building alongside my 5-9). Been earning more each year and getting bonuses. Yet, my wife made a comment in passing a few months back about my intentions with work at that “dead-end” job. She used this term not in a malicious way but just because I had previously mentioned that I may not be able to move up into a VP or upper-management position. But that didn’t mean I wouldn’t get pay raises, which… Read more »

TuffLuv
Guest
TuffLuv

Steve Jobs, Bill Gates — brilliant apex geniuses and techno-gods..

Uh.. no.

Wozniak
Ive
Allen

THEY built this world.

Jobs and Gates were simply masters of Law 7

kfg
Guest
kfg

@TuffLuv:

+1

And let’s not forget the “pencil and paper” boys, Von Neumann, Turing, Codd and Knuth.

Bachelorocles
Guest
Bachelorocles

@newlyaloof

“It’s in a women’s nature to want to maximize resources, even when the resources she has to offer are depreciating in value.”

It’s in a woman’s nature to be a prostitute and have no respect for her provider John(s) whom she’s manipulated into exclusive prostitution contracts (aka marriage).

Don’t be a John. Don’t enter into exclusive prostitution contracts.

TuffLuv
Guest
TuffLuv

@rollo Last two paragraphs – wow, man. Any man who can draw parallels to my recent life, 20yr marriage, kids of various ages, career, good decisions, success.. then to see it crushed and stolen, not just from the ex, but the state, and those who have been enabled by the state, then have that followed up with the kids being taken and given to the perp, binding orders to remain an indentured servant to this deviant who set it all in motion, all while being accused by this psychopath of various forms of imagined abuse, and exacerbations (with no penalty)… Read more »

enrique
Guest
enrique

Yes, I will be watching (and reporting) my friend John’s situation. He, like me, is one of those paper Alphas (former military, etc), who got caught up in the World of Beta. I always think of Rollo’s post about “last days” or end days, whateve it was called. I mean, it speaks SO MUCH TRUTH. Not saying to be a flake, loser or just do nothing for your life, not at all (if only we ALL could be Tesla), but every man should take inventory of where he is at at key points in his life. Because if you think,… Read more »

eon
Guest
eon

” … my “clients” always and frequently give me a heartfelt thank you for the diagnosis and treatment I give them. All the time. As I walk out of the the room, I know, dammit, that I am supposed to say “my pleasure” to help you, “you are very welcome”. But I have a real, real problem in saying your welcome. I just feel it is my job to give my all to serve their problems and their needs. I’m just doing what I am expected to do.” This can also be a way of validating a context, rather than… Read more »

TuffLuv
Guest
TuffLuv

The sugar is that even at 44, I feel reborn. For the first time in my life since age 15, I’m not wrapped up in some woman/girl. I’ve stated before that I had a very red pill upbringing from my naturally red pill father. But there were lingering blue pill messages from my mother (who is quite an impressive and traditional woman), sisters and large family of aunts, etc.. that skewed the core understanding. My father never spoke directly about it, his tutelage was all by example, which would have been great had I been paired up with real women… Read more »

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

“good dinner tonight”

NOT

“thank you for dinner”

approval not appreciation

and only say it if you mean it…

I only thank her if she went over and beyond to do something kind for me

Kid Jupiter
Guest
Kid Jupiter

@LeeLee I think a good theory as to why women are generally more hesitant/resistant to receiving compliments or words of appreciation might be that their natural, more Machiavellian orientation to the world interprets these as ‘loaded’, that the giver of the compliment/words of appreciation ‘wants something’. Especially when it’s a man…. In other words, women might be more prone to believe there are strings attached, since they themselves would most likely never give a compliment or outward words of appreciation without ‘strings attached’, without some type of objective or end in mind – even if that end is as simple… Read more »

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

you thank people who gave you something you NEED… Basic power dynamic here people

I don’t thank my maid for cleaning the floor I tell her the floor looks nice

I don’t thank the kids for cleaning their room I tell them the room looks nice

same thing

kfg
Guest
kfg

I do not auto-condiment the entree of my life with the salt and pepper of “please,” and “thank you.” They are somewhat exotic, oriental spices, used where and when they actually compliment the dish. Someone like Lee Lee, rather than resenting them, would savour them for as long as she could and treasure their memories for the rest of her life. They would be to her as citations are to a soldier, recognition by one’s superior that service beyond the expected had been rendered and that it was appreciated. When I was just a wee laddie, there were still those… Read more »

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

Kfg,

Exactly.

I tell the wife she made a good dinner and she thinks ME.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

*Thanks

The Question
Guest

“I think one of the reasons men find the popularized, feminist, social convention of ‘male privilege‘ so disingenuous is because we want to be appreciated for the sacrifices and perseverance needed to even have what looks like a meager, hand-out, kind of privilege.”

Having this cultural Marxist propaganda spouted out by people who are only given a voice in the media due to privilege makes it all the more disingenuous. Those who talk about the privilege of others the most are the ones who are themselves the most privileged.

Darwinian Arminian
Guest
Darwinian Arminian

@okrahead at 8:34 pm For women, the burden of performance used to be child bearing and rearing. Consider the Old Testament story of Hannah . . . You bring up an interesting point, one that I suspect exerts some pull even today. If men are to be judged for making more of themselves, then is it also possible that women still receive judgement from society for her performance as a mother — or maybe for refusing to even take on the role to begin with? One example from modern times: I remember reading a while back that there was a… Read more »

Darwinian Arminian
Guest
Darwinian Arminian

Messed up the link in the last comment. You can find it here:

http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2013/05/american-sheng-nu.html

TuffLuv
Guest
TuffLuv

@rollo

You helped me.. THANK YOU.. deal with it.

newlyaloof
Guest

@Tuff, powerful story. Good fortune on your RP awakening and journey.

BigAl
Guest
BigAl

I couldn’t imagine life without a burden of performance. As I work hard and plan for the future, I get great feelings on a limbic level for problem solving. I feel hard wired to accept the burden, and accel at what I’m on earth to do.

I think being a woman sounds boring and unfulfilling, except for motherhood

Wild Man
Guest
Wild Man

Very insightful comments here – I for one do very much appreciate everybody’s concern here – concern for trying to understand humanity better so as to take on life more artfully, and taking the time to write thoughts down and share these. It seems to me that is the general consensus of the sentiment of the commenting here, probably because Rollo sets the standard with the quality of, and motivations for, the insights he shares with us here. This concern with trying to understand better so as to live better is what my primary motivation has always been, and I… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“What methods could best serve such approach?”

Careful observation and analysis; just as for any other course of investigation.

I suggest that you, like E.O. Wilson, begin with ants. Then you can move on to cats and dogs.

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

@Cave, Yo man, wassup? : ) lol…. ” you thank people who gave you something you NEED… Basic power dynamic here people..” Okay, I will give you that, but just for a thought exercise let me spin the ” thanks ” thing from another viewpoint that also occupies space in my head. technically, I don’t feel that I have to wait for most people to ” give ” me anything. I could always just take whatever I wanted by force. You already know how I see Yin and Yang, I have a good/nice side and an equally ( potentially )… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

“Maybe by 60 I’ll figure that it was all just a crock of shit.” Not a crock of shit, but perhaps a growing phase. “Maybe I’ve been a pall bearer 1 too many times?” I am now at the stage of life where I know more dead people than live people. Perhaps I have had an “advantage” though; I grew up with a rather tenuous grasp on life and have understood that my life could end with the next heart beat at least since reaching the age of self-consciousness. “It’s important to me that, at the end of the day,… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Guest
Sun Wukong

@kfg Perhaps I have had an “advantage” though; I grew up with a rather tenuous grasp on life and have understood that my life could end with the next heart beat at least since reaching the age of self-consciousness. +1 At 16 years old, I had heart surgery for radio catheter ablation of an accessory pathway. Cutting edge stuff at the time. In and out of the hospital for heart surgery in 3 days normally. Unfortunately, my case wasn’t normal. Somebody brushed my elbow after failing to discharge static electricity and I was electrically grounded. Recovery from the ensuing 2… Read more »

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

@Sun wukong That last part got me thinking about this. “Sigma: The outsider who doesn’t play the social game and manage to win at it anyhow. The sigma is hated by alphas because sigmas are the only men who don’t accept or at least acknowledge, however grudgingly, their social dominance. (NB: Alphas absolutely hate to be laughed at and a sigma can often enrage an alpha by doing nothing more than smiling at him.) Everyone else is vaguely confused by them. In a social situation, the sigma is the man who stops in briefly to say hello to a few… Read more »

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

Hey blax, I think we are mostly on the same page with this, just saying it differently. To elaborate, it is very easy for most men to fall into the nice guy/beta “please, thank you, appreciation, compliment” trap. Very easy, ask me how I know. Look at LeeLee’s reaction to it. She seems to appreciate it, but at the same time something is missing, no? I think that “something” is approval. My wife cooks all my meals. All of them. That’s a lot of thank you’s. But if I say, “That was some good chicken you made” or “You sure… Read more »

Looking for Zion
Guest
Looking for Zion

Hey Rollo – After I took the red pill a few months ago and stopped being a beta blue pill chump my wife gave me a copy of this mangina scribed piece of clap trap. Apparently, by not catering to het every emotional whim and womanly complaint anymore, and by pointing out her double standards and inappropriate demands & behavior, I’m a gaslighter. So the burden of performance modern women, feminists I guess, expect is suck up supplication 24/7. “Yes dear. You’re right dear!” And dweebs like this buy in and make a name for themselves as first class beta… Read more »

Wild Man
Guest
Wild Man

@kfg – yes, I think the observations and analysis to-date, with respect to humanity, have been very useful, in showing how parts of the “humanity-machine” works, with it’s gendered subscript running as part of the overall “machine”, but we still haven’t put the overall set of algorithms together to the degree we have with other species, (i.e. – with such analysis of many other species, our accurate overviews, empirical-method-wise, have born more real-world fruit with respect to predictive power), but with humanity, I think this algorithmic-understanding approach is still far from providing the same level of overall understanding as shown… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Rugby: “It’s from Heartise . . .”

Reprinting Vox Day: The Socio-Sexual Hierarchy

@Cave Clown: “But if I say thing like I listed above . . .”

It is, in a way, even though spoken, showing, not telling. It’s a visceral reaction, rather than an explanation or boilerplate politeness.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

“Your husband should thank you for BJs ”

I really feelz the need to point out how wrong this is.

NEVER thank a woman for anything sexual.

Compliment her technique, tell her how hot you are/were for her, do some aftercare, but holy shit don’t ever thank her.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

“It is, in a way, even though spoken, showing, not telling. It’s a visceral reaction, rather than an explanation or boilerplate politeness.”

Exactly.

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Wild Man: “I think there probably is such a thing as a set of algorithms for humanity . . .”

Why not start with something simple and easy first, like passing the Turing Test?

” . . . he has a 2014 book out now entitled “The Meaning of Human Existence”. ”

That one is proving quite controversial, as his current stance on the evolutionary model is at odds with the contemporary consensus. I need to put it on my own short list, which is already distressingly long.

redlight
Guest
redlight

@looking

Why are you “pointing out her double standards and inappropriate demands & behavior”? Did you post on the Rationale Female site?

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

“NEVER thank a woman for anything sexual.”
Reading about billy wilder and he mentions the same thing.
Cave it’s great reading your growth.

CaveClown
Guest
CaveClown

“NEVER thank a woman for anything sexual.”
Reading about billy wilder and he mentions the same thing.
Cave it’s great reading your growth.”

Hey thanks man!

Tough road, holy shit. But getting there I suppose.

Pretty sure if I never wanted another BJ from the wife, I would just thank her for the last one.

Slut shields to 100%!!! Deploy the obligated compliance!!! Ready nuclear shit tests!!!! Prepare to engage the branch swing to Chad Thundercock!!!

Blaximus
Guest
Blaximus

….lol

Wild Man
Guest
Wild Man

@kfg – “Why not start with something simple and easy first, like passing the Turing Test?”

The agenda I hope for as outlined above, probably is only as ambitious as a pass on the Turing Test. If we could find the right set of algorithms that properly elucidates the human condition, so as to provide a deep predictive power, I think that would be approximately akin to a Turing Test pass.

E.O. Wilson’s latest book being controversial – OK – good to hear (that makes me want to read it all the more)!

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

Today I learned a lot about some serious trauma and it’s imposition. I defended people who not only attempted to force me as a beta but also ignore there actual sexual behavior than. My independence was hard to gain even at 27 it’s hard to go back to the house I was in. They don’t know me and keep trying to force me into a beta religious provider with conviction. I was telling a buddy of mine how much I appreciate intimacy as a male who always felt the emotional demand of my family of origin. Intimacy to me I… Read more »

Looking for Zion
Guest
Looking for Zion

@redlight

Good point, and taken! LOL

rugby11
Guest
rugby11

With being aware https://eclass.upatras.gr/modules/document/file.php/LIT1890/Hemmingway,%20Ernest%20-%20Men%20Without%20Women.pdf Nothing hurts with the ability to take life as as harsh as it is. I have attempting an failed at removing buffers from my life I have a long way to go. I know what I have to do but it’s hard to do it. Self discipline and uncomfortable situations are what I’m used to in the wrong caliber. I over act or under act and at times I don’t act. I surrender the burden of performance. At points such as this everyone is angry with me because that’s me just “getting it”. I find that… Read more »

Matt
Guest
Matt

I think many would find Leykis’ thoughts on marriage security to be interesting and even more relevant today. I appreciate your explanation of male smv in terms beyond professional status in this post. That was primarily the issue I was grappling with. Is it beta fucks or alpha bucks entering into marriage as an apex alpha at prime smv? Luckily, if a man waits long enough, he can protect the majority of premarital assets with the right setup. Of course, little can be done from the women cashing in on your continued height of professional success. Every redpill man who… Read more »

kfg
Guest
kfg

@Wild Man: “The agenda I hope for as outlined above, probably is only as ambitious as a pass on the Turing Test.”

The Turing Test is a simple, conversational “two body” problem, with the bodies hidden from each other. Three bodies in the same room is a whole ‘nother kettle of people, with nonverbal communications, sexual and social hierarchies to account for.

So, OK, start with something simple and easy like solving the three body problem, and then the Navier-Stokes existence and smoothness problems.

Wild Man
Guest
Wild Man

@Looking for Zion – the huffpost article you linked: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html Yeah it is so telling. The guy gets a lot right, but the conclusions he draws are all completely wrong because he fails to to take into account the innate and social differences between men/women with respect to something as basic as how reality is tested by each gender, normatively. If we are just talking about generalities (and since the article is about a general man/woman issue, – we then should be taking the general-perspective), and not specific people, like the two examples he used mid-article that I guess was… Read more »

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