During the Q&A section of the Man in Demand talk I gave back in September I was asked about where I believed the social dynamic of Open Hypergamy would lead. In specific the idea was proposed, and I agree, that the logical next step for a social order founded on feminine Hypergamy and one that prioritizes the female sexual strategy as preeminent would lead to a state of openly accepted cuckoldry.
Although I can’t say it’s an accepted social dynamic as yet, there are many social indicators that are revealing this push towards a normalized cuckoldry. I’ll explore these for a bit in this essay, but for now these indicators are about a move away from conventional monogamy in the hopes that a ‘soft cuckoldry’ might be a precursor to instituting a more accepted open cuckoldry.
I think it’s also important to keep in mind a couple of primary principles about this shift. First is the fact that, initially, an openly accepted state of feminine-controlled cuckoldry will never be called ‘cuckoldry’ proper. If we use the example of a socially accepted (if not celebrated) open Hypergamy as a model, open cuckoldry will be sold as a more logical, more humane sexual strategy for men and women in light of divorce statistics, romantic boredom and other sexual studies that indicate men and women weren’t evolved for monogamous commitment.
The second is that open cuckoldry is the extension of a unilaterally feminine controlled Hypergamy. That is to say that as Hypergamy becomes more normalized as a social imperative that sexual strategy will extend to optimizing Hypergamy across genders. If that optimization is taken to its logical end it will require men not just to adopt cuckoldry as a norm, but to socially reward them for advocating it among their own sex.
Cuckoldry By Any Other Name
As I said, it wont be called ‘cuckoldry’; the connotations are negative, so a redefining will be made in order to make the practice more socially palatable. The Feminine Imperative wont recruit the very men it needs to perpetuate cuckoldry as their own sexual strategy if the term is derogatory. Thus we’ll get euphemisms for alternative lifestyles, ‘open marriages’ or a “Designer Relationship“:
We live in an era when everything is customizable. Relationships are no exception. Some people will continue to practice their grandparents’ form of monogamy, and others, probably the majority, will be serially exclusive and pair-bonded. Still others will explore some form of non-monogamous expression that encompasses one or more of the facets we’ve discussed or may flow in and out of being exclusive based on what the relationship requires. (We’ve done this ourselves.) Having the ability to customize a relationship means having the freedom to respond to life’s vicissitudes.
The first time I came across the concept of ‘soft polygamy’ I was in a behavioral psychology class exploring the practices of modern marriage and contrasting them with the long term sexual behaviors of men and women. As you might imagine the context of the study focused entirely on the ‘bad behaviors’ of men who essentially transitioned from serial monogamy to serial marriage. The idea was that in the process of moving from one LTR to another men were establishing a soft form of polygamy.
In a social respect, men have far more to lose from serial marriages than do women. The financial liabilities of divorce are well known to the manosphere, but so are the emotional and familial accountabilities. So from a strictly male perspective, serial LTRs are a dicey prospect, but from a female perspective, in a feminine-primary social order, institutionalized Hypergamy and the soft polygamy that results from the Sandbergian sexual strategy, soft cuckoldry becomes pragmatic in optimizing Hypergamy for women.
At this point we should consider the Heartiste maxim about feminism again:
The feminist goal is removing all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality
Institutionalized cuckoldry is the logical means to restricting male sexuality, but we have to consider what function that restriction serves for women. From an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks perspective the plan is simple; restrict that sexuality as women find need for a particular man’s service.
Diamonds and Rust
While I’m reluctant to prognosticate, my guess is that future generations of men will be conditioned to accept their role in this cuckoldry as part of their socialization. The above Forevermark diamond advertisement is one illustration of this. Open Hypergamy and its acceptance has already made its popular debut in mainstream media and advertising, and likewise open cuckoldry is just now finding a social foothold.
It takes the Red Pill Lens to appreciate the efforts as they’re being made by a large society. The Forevermark ad is intended to be funny or cute, but it belies a deeper, more poignant truth about Alpha Widows, Hypergamy and the long term sexual strategy Plan and roles women expect men to play in it.
I was made aware of this ad being circulated from a reader on Twitter and at first thought it was a reworked joke. It is however legit and billboards with this campaign are up in major cities. Without the benefit of a Red Pill Lens I can see how most men would laugh it off or women might giggle sardonically about it, but the the fact remains that a clever copywriter is aware of the sexual dynamics that make it funny.
I pulled the following quote from Deti on one of Dalrock’s more recent post:
“I think what we will continue to see is growing disengagement.”
Yeah, this has been discussed here and elsewhere in the almost 5 years I’ve been around here.
I think that what will happen is that things will continue sliding in the same direction they’re going now, until a critical mass is reached. I don’t know what that critical mass is, what will trigger it, or when it will be reached.
We live in a mostly free society with a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. We have maximum freedom and autonomy right now, with both sexes being free to pursue pretty much whatever they want, however they want to. That is the prime characteristic driving the current circumstance — that, and up to now, there’s been enough money taxed, borrowed and stolen to pay for it.
A growing number of men are not getting as much sex as they want. A growing number of women aren’t getting commitments in the form they want — when they want or from the men they want.
So things are going to keep sliding that way. More and more men will walk away and direct what energies they have left elsewhere — into work, or beer/bros/Xbox/porn, or travel/leisure. (Oddly enough, this might make many of them more attractive to women, since they’re spending less time directing their attentions to women.) More and more men will earn just enough to support themselves, since they don’t plan on marriage, and fatherhood is out of the question. They will lack the skills to improve their lives. They will not get nearly as much sex as they want, but they will learn to live with it — mostly through porn, the occasional hookup, and the even more occasional prostitute. The price of prostitutes will skyrocket as demand increases; and a few more women will go into high-end call girl work to earn side money.
More and more women will direct their attentions into their work, travel/leisure, and having children without men. (This will definitely make more of them less attractive to men except as on again, off again sex partners.) They will not get the commitments from men they want, but they will learn to live with it. They will complain about it with increasing volume and shrillness, but they’ll learn to live with it.
Until something happens to cause the tides to turn. Again – don’t know what, or when, or how. But something will happen to cause a hard reset. And it will be exquisitely painful for everyone. I don’t want it to happen, nor do I relish it. It’s not something to desire or look forward to because of the pain it will bring. But I do think it will happen. I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime or my kids’ lifetimes. We could easily slide like this for another 50 to 100 years.
I think one consequence of this separation of the genders will include a socially normalized institution of cuckoldry. To take hold it will need to be termed something different, but in effect the process of women conceiving with one man and then expecting another man to parentally invest himself in that child will be a casual expectation of women. With so many men effectively (if not intentionally) going their own way, the idea that any man wouldn’t be expected to serve as a surrogate parent will become commonplace.
Genders divided by feminism or feminine social primacy will need a ‘customized’ form of cuckoldry that allows for the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy to be reconciled with the Beta Bucks side by enlisting different men for either purpose.
The Pink Pill
I want to end here with an essay I read recently on the fallout of the new female form of Viagra:
In an infamous cartoon in The New Yorker in 2001, one woman confides to a friend over drinks: ‘I was on hormone replacement for two years before I realized what I really needed was Steve replacement.’ Medicine has been reluctant to engage the question of just how much monogamy and long-term togetherness affect sexual function and desire, and the ‘Steve’ problem remains an issue that is tacitly acknowledged and yet under-discussed. To return to Julie’s growing pile of self-help titles, the books all promise to return, revive, restore without really getting down to the brass tacks of why desire extinguished in the first place. As Julie notes, the honeymoon grinds to an end, but the issues leading there are complex. In short supply is attention to the way mind and body react to social structures such as popular media, faith and marriage.
To develop drugs to boost libido is like ‘giving antibiotics to pigs because of the shit they’re standing in’
The American psychologist Christopher Ryan argues that the institution of modern marriage – meaning an exclusive couple bound by romantic love – is antithetical to long-term excitement. Ryan is best known for Sex at Dawn (2010), a book authored with his wife Cacilda Jethá, that makes the case that sexual monogamy is deeply at odds with human nature. He is among a growing number of researchers suggesting that the rift between women’s purportedly limitless sexual potential and their dulled actuality might owe to the circumstances of intimacy. Accordingly, the conjugal bed is not only the scene of dwindling desire, but its fundamental cause. The elements that strengthen love – reciprocity, closeness, emotional security – can be the very things that smother lust. While love angles toward intimacy, desire flourishes across a distance.
The entire article is very insightful if not a bit depressing, but with the Red Pill Lens we can begin to understand the latent purpose behind the message. I’ve gone on record about the pushback against clearing the pink pill for use as being a direct threat to women’s control of their own Hypergamy. The concern, ostensibly, is that a libido stimulating drug might be used to induce a woman into having sex that her otherwise sober sense would prevent; effectively it could be a ‘rape’ drug.
What’s finally being addressed in this article however is what I’ve been saying since I was aware of the drug’s trials – a chemical that induces libido in women removes an element of their control in sexual selection and compromises Hypergamy. I’m not entirely sure the author was aware of the points she was revealing in this, but she succinctly makes the case for both institutionalized cuckoldry (or certainly a ‘customized’ soft polygamy for women) and advocates for women maintaining control of their Hypergamy unclouded by a drug that would remove that control by chemically inducing them into sex that isn’t of their own choosing.
The ‘cure’ to women’s low libido is holistic, not biological. Women’s sexual deficiencies are presumed not to be the result of a ‘broken’ biology, but rather a lack of proper motivation. I should point out that all of this validates all the points I was making about Dread in marriage last month on Biblical Gender Roles – maintaining a condition of proper motivation (i.e. Dread), the holistic cure, is exactly what even femosphere authors are tacitly advocating.
The elements that strengthen love – reciprocity, closeness, emotional security – can be the very things that smother lust.
Yet now, even when a pharmaceutical solution to the lust problem is made available the ‘cure’ is rejected. Why? Because on a root, limbic level women’s hindbrains know that Hypergamy cannot be optimized with a drug that removes Hypergamous choice. The real solution has never changed and women are now put into a position of having to openly acknowledge that for all of the pretense of “mismatched libidos” or “sex just declines after marriage” social conventions, men’s cuckoldry is the real plan for Hypergamy.
When presented with a pill that will make them sexual, when given a cure to their low sex drives with the men who’ve made lifetime commitments to them, women will still refuse to take it. Hypergamous doubt can’t be quelled with a pill.
A lot of Naturals have a hard time understanding what the average dude is like out there because they can’t relate to a lot of the mental baggage and awkward social skills etc these guys have been living with for most of their lives and how much work they have to do just to become NORMAL let alone go into a club and have girls approach them This is also why Naturals generally don’t make good teachers btw. Being able to do something and being able to teach something aren’t the same thing, often a Natural just gets frustrated with… Read more »
“The Moms in my neighborhood… You can just see it in their eyes. Borderline desperate.” I was in the local department store yesterday, shopping for a few gifts for a Christmas-party gift exchange I was going to. The event was with some people I sail with, so I’m looking for techie/outdoorsie kind of stuff and thus am in the sporting goods department. I turn one corner, and encounter a 40-something mom and teenage (presumable) son, holding a pink-stock Daisy air rifle in box, and some pellets. I’m just browsing the shelves hoping something cool and giftable will catch my eye,… Read more »
” . . . a pink-stock Daisy air rifle . . .”
Jeeeeeeeezus.
I wrote you a few comments years ago about how you should improve your style. I am writing now to say only, it doesn’t matter. It’s almost 2016 and you’re still one of the three Rs, and you are and ever have been, ESSENTIAL reading. The day you stop writing will cast a long-lasting chill over the Western world.
They can have my keyboard when they pry it from my cold dead hands
“They can have my keyboard when they pry it from my cold dead hands.”
The man has spoken…
Talking about fight club is not for beginners. When you talk about fight club, you spike cortisol levels. This creates a massive push in most girls. There are special situations where it also spikes attraction–LSE girls. LSE girls typically need abuse before they become sexually aroused. Or maybe they are girls who need high cortisol levels in order to become sexually aroused, so they act in ways that stimulate men to abuse them. I have seen a massive spike in attraction even in HSE girls when generating cortisol. Use calibration to determine whether you also need to provide comfort (to… Read more »
@Scribble, damn, you are miles ahead on the alienation front. My hats off to you.
@Newly and all the guys here – If you want input on parental alienation (not actually the right label, fyi), I’m happy to help. But really, diving deeply into Dr. Childress’s work is where you’ll get the most benefit. But note that even he says that adult children who’ve been alienated will likely remain so for life. I didn’t come to my conclusions lightly, they were forced upon me. The answer? Shared custody if you do get divorced. Looking deeply into your wife-to-be’s family history before marrying her – if she’s the child of divorce and alienated from her father… Read more »
Thanks alot, you miserabale cocksucker, ASD, you fucking ignorant, know it all cunt.
TRP is tough to swallow. Hard for you and hard for me both. Maybe someday you’ll have reconciled with your kids. I hope so. You can apologize and thank me then. Until then I’ll make like a duck. Best wishes.
What you wrote in this article is both confronting and real. I know what you are saying is true but I wanted to share something here. Just the other day I was talking with my mother about the last two relationships I had and it made me realize how men are the true romantics. I still wasn’t over my ex girlfriend and broke it off with another great girl I was dating when my mother asked why, I told her I just wasn’t in love with her like I was with my other ex girlfriend. She ended up trying to… Read more »
@scribblerg In my situation (in effect losing a daughter), it took about 3 years for the grieving process, and even though I have acceptance, it is accepting that it will never return to what it was. That said, my grandmother left her family to live with another man, when my mom was young (and is quite likely her bio-dad was neither her father or this other man). My mom detailed a bunch of abuse before my grandmother had left, which under review seems somewhat overstated. Even after all that my mom in her 30s reconnected with her mom, except we… Read more »
So, no comment on the Briffault’s law post (note the date it was posted).
I should also add I cover Briffault’s law in Preventive Medicine
@ASD – You do realize facts and logic don’t change your POV on issues, yes? That’s what you’ve demonstrated here. You also demonstrated a petty viciousness in “going there” with me initially cuz you couldn’t go toe-to-toe with me on politics. Your standing in this community is reduced, not mine. How sad for you that your ego is so fragile and you are so threatened by me. Fyi, I was content to ignore you, but you had to keep trying to engage me on this thread. Get this. ASD isn’t just a label for your blog or something you’ve transcended.… Read more »
Sigh…@Redlight – My daughter could see pictures of me buff, hanging with hot blondes, climbing Mt. Everest and it will have absolutely no effect. Also, you can’t be “alienated” in the clinical sense from your Grandparents. You can be badmouthed about them, estranged from them etc, but not alienated as alienation is about the nuclear family system and attachment – this can only happen with biological parents and occurs as an attachment disorder. It’s about Mom, Dad and the kid – nobody else is relevant or can be clinically alienated. If you really want to understand this, dig deeper. My… Read more »
@YaReally
No offense but that Manhood pdf looks terrible, I’m a third of the way in and it’s nothing but shitty strawmen and half-assed logic. It’s really bad.
But I haven’t had time to read all of yet it and I agree with you that we should absorb the useful and discard the useless so what parts of it do you think are important?
For those who want to understand, here is a discussion on Grandparent Alienation Syndrome (GAS):
http://grandparents.about.com/od/Grandparents-Rights/g/Grandparent-Alienation-Syndrome.htm
As noted there
use the term Family Alienation Syndrome (FAS) in order to cover all who have been cut off from family members.
@scribblerg
this can only happen with biological parents and occurs as an attachment disorder
this is horseshit in a thread about open cuckoldry. If you ran a DNA test and your daughter wasn’t yours, then your parental alienation would end?
Jason – I guess I can relate to your mom. I loved my ex but was not in love with her. I wanted a family and kids and she was the best choice from a practical standpoint. Of course, I didn’t see coming the fact that she was a narcissist who puts herself in front of everybody else, including me, her parents, and her children. Women always have two sides to them, always. But when it comes to marriage, I imagine a lot of guys will go practical. Want to pick someone who will fit in and not embarrass them,… Read more »
@Rollo, I read/heard something recently that had me google searching this morning. I had heard that someone had done a study that demonstrated that teachers tend to be biased against their boy students, to the point where boys with equal or better test score get lower overall grades on those same tests than the girls. This wasn’t necessarily surprising, nor was the small degree of the bias. Until I read this gem in the middle, and of course interpreted it through the lens of your blog: …It seems like out-and-out discrimination, except there is an interesting wrinkle: teachers didn’t downgrade… Read more »
Oh, I forgot the link, sorry..
Time link:
http://ideas.time.com/2013/02/06/do-teachers-really-discriminate-against-boys/
PDF of study:
http://people.terry.uga.edu/cornwl/research/cmvp.genderdiffs.pdf
Biggest lesson learned regarding relationships this weekend: Anger is beta.
@ newly
Congruency is key. Don’t get angry over minor stuff. Hold frame. Punish behavior that violates the terms of the relationship. Lol at minor stuff.
@ Jeremy
It is amazing to me that women could ever have a problem with men staring at boobs,
It’s only creepy if the men give off a guilty beta vibe when they do it. Betas don’t get to look at boobs.
@Striver “Women always have two sides to them, always.” “Lady” Macbeth @Jeremy “This tells me that female demands of adequate male social conditioning apparently manifest across all age discrepancies. Likewise female penalization for under-socialized males is lock-step with it. Women even 25-50 years older than the males they are interacting with have performance demands that they still measure the boys by. They actually penalize boys that do not meet their social expectations.” Family @newlyaloof Anger can be used in an alpha way. Yesterday my team captain got drunk and made me angry so I used that anger to help me… Read more »
@newlyaloof
Impotent, constant anger and bitching is a beta tell. It shows personal insecurity and a lack of emotional stability that undermines the confidence others have in your capability to lead.
The occasional anger expressed with very good reason and resolved through decisive, confident action is positive and healthy.
@Redlight – So why are you going on about grandparent alienation then? I mean, it’s not appropriate for this thread, right? In fact, there are lots of uses of the word “alienation” that are not clinical terms as described in the DSM 5. I referenced the definition of the syndrome as per Dr. Childress, who is the guy who got it into DSM 5. You are referring to the more general use of the term. What I’m talking about is the specific case that has to do with attachment and family systems – an those aspects are exclusive to parents… Read more »
@Jeremy – This correlates nicely with the research showing how women have much higher ingroup preferences across the board, whereas men show little to none. To lazy to provide cites, but the research is there.
And of course, since their normal operating condition when it comes to judgment is to embrace their biases, it’s not at all surprising as to why they have their thumbs on the scale in both directions, as the “reward” for boys who demonstrate FI friendly socialization is about the benefits to women for such behavior. The shit just gets deeper and deeper.
@scribblerg I referenced the definition of the syndrome as per Dr. Childress, who is the guy who got it into DSM 5 it’s in DSM 5? Child Psychological Abuse is, as Childress noted on October 28th: The appropriate DSM-5 diagnosis of the “parental alienation” pathology is V995.51 Child Psychological Abuse, Confirmed. The pathology of the narcissistic/borderline parent is inducing severe developmental pathology (Diagnostic Indicator 1: Attachment System Suppression), severe personality pathology (Diagnostic Indicator 2: Five Specific Narcissistic Personality Traits), and severe psychiatric pathology (Diagnostic Indicator 3: Delusional Beliefs) in the child through the distorted pathogenic parenting of the narcissistic/borderline parent.… Read more »
@Redlight – Shocking disclosure – you can’t understand complex psychological conditions based on a couple of Google searches. Two points to show how superficial you are being: – You’ll notice that upthread I noted that calling it “parental alienation” was not actually how Childress speaks about it. However, I didn’t think going even more deeply into the technical details would clarify anything. – Here is a video of a lecture Dr. Childress gave where he goes through the entire psychological bases for his model, at a professional association gathering. First, you’ll note that “attachment” disorders can only pertain to parents… Read more »
@scribblerg first I could be wrong here, perhaps there is somewhere that Childress indicates that the parents must be the biological parents next, besides the biological parents point, what is it that I specifically said that you disagree with? Finally in your “Two points to show how superficial you are being”, your first point is that “parental alienation” was not actually how Childress speaks about it, which is what I also said in my last point, so that confirms what we both said. Regarding the second point, Childress in the video says the children “reject a relationship not only with… Read more »
@Redlight – You were wrong about the generalized nature of parental alienation, even after I went to pains to describe the difference between Childress’s clinical definition and the historical, more general and non-clinical use of the word. I don’t think discussing this any further without watching Childress’s 1 hour 45 minute lecture I linked to is productive as this is a complicated, technical subject. I also don’t want to fight about it. We do not need to be at odds with each other. In a way I understand this as the term parental alienation has been around for a long… Read more »
In his excellent comment at http://therationalmale.com/2015/12/07/open-cuckoldry/comment-page-5/#comment-131227 , YaReally left out a few important things. First, he didn’t explain how the kid develops delusions in his mind about the alienated parent. Second, there was no mention of how to use Red Pill psychological tactics to combat the parental alienation. I will comment about both of those. Hater: Oh, wait, you are only a keyboard jockey, what you say is irrelevant. We has SCIENCE dun by a SCIENTIST!!!! Me: Does this fraud whom you rely on know anything about Red Pill psychological concepts? Fuck no. Yes, this is all keyboard jockey theory,… Read more »
Great teleplay on trauma and alienation.
http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/j/joshua-script-transcript.html
thanks
Newly, I agree with Sun on the anger issue, and is what I was talking about with boundaries. Righteous “you knew my boundaries and crossed them anyway” anger is ok, so long as it is controlled. (Like in the pdf Yareally linked to) Frustrated, impotent, “why are you doing this to me?” type anger is a shit test fail. Why would you let some broad make you feel that way? (Easier said than done, trust me I know) I made this mistake with the wife on 389,987 different occasions. (Approximately…) Yareally and the pdf say you need to balance boundary… Read more »
SJF wrote: “Not all of us are rock stars that have women falling on our penises by accident.” Laughed my ass off at that. Asd, Scribbler and SJF, thank you for the feedback, good stuff and makes a ton of sense. Yeah, other than a bit of flirting and tiny bits of gaming here and there I’ve not had time to get out and apply it to other women. Need a lot of work on game. Need a full evening to just read all these comments. After spending the entire day doing a final yard cleanup I’m exhausted. Have two… Read more »
@scribblerg We do not need to be at odds with each other we are not at odds with each other. I want you to be happy. You want you to be happy. I made a suggestion that would mean no change to what you are doing, aside from posting photos on social media. You are free to ignore this suggestion. First and foremost it was to live a successful life (and this is however you define success). Then document this so that you provide incongruent information to the negative (you will know far better than me what negative things have… Read more »
Regarding: “I agree with the following propositions: 1. Lots of naturals are Blue Pill. 2. Some naturals don’t understand why their game works. 3. Some naturals choose marriage partners badly. 4. Most Naturals rely very heavily on nonverbals and aren’t very smooth verbally speaking. Their nonverbals are generally as smooth as hell. 5. Some naturals can’t explain why their game works to non-Naturals even if they understand their game. I have spoken with Naturals and have observed their nonverbals to understand their stories. This (Point #5) was the point that I was addressing previously. I think that it helps to… Read more »
@theasdgamer I think that it’s more than what YaReally describes. First, a lot of the alienating parent’s tactics involve nonverbal communication from the mother that induces the kid to devalue the dad and accept the mother’s frame. The mother can truthfully claim that she never said one word against the father. This is subtle stuff and is difficult to pin down. Remember how ignorant children are. They have no idea how the world is supposed to work. This is why divorced homes, even in the absolute best possible circumstances, are further destructive to stable marriages because they normalize single parenthood… Read more »
Roused, you’re very welcome. Keep up the good work.
@Scrib- I appreciate the specifics and details of PAS that you provide. I’ve got some experience with it from ex-wife, luckily she was too stupid to do it right and I’ve been pretty successful by making sure I spend as much time with the kids as possible. It is exhausting, though, and I’ve let a few jobs, relationships, etc go in order to keep footing and make the regular trips out of state to pick em up and drop off. Recently impregnated a real winner who made it obvious this would be her agenda from the beginning. I haven’t talked… Read more »
“wtf… I don’t remember if I put my hand(s) on her at that point, but she leaned into me” @Blaximus Yeah dead give away here. You’re a natural. I would have been like (read in robot voice) “I reached out my left hand and placed it on the small of her back. My index finger was between the 23rd and 24th vertebrae. My middle finger was between the 25th and 26th vertebrae. She is five foot. nine inches. with a thirty four, point, two, five, inch inseam. She has a beautiful. Ass. Boobs. Boobs. Boobs. Boobs. Boobs. beep beep beep… Read more »
@ Jeremy Remember how ignorant children are. They have no idea how the world is supposed to work…Even if you have a saint of a mother, a woman who goes out-of-her way to praise the blood father of the children And some of us who were from divorced families are autistic. I was the only child from a divorced family in my elementary classes. I felt ashamed of it when asked where my father was. My father worked overseas for years and didn’t write after the first few years–he would send a letter with the child support. Then he stopped… Read more »
Well I just saw the play “Thérèse Raquin” this weekend on broadway (with Kiera Knightly) and I must say that it is a story that examines Open Cuckoldry. Initially we are supposed to feel sympathy for Thérèse who has been emotionally captive by her dull adopted mother and sickly adopted brother/husband.
However, after the cheating and murder is done (by the rakish boyfriend), the two leads are haunted by the Husband’s ghost and descend into misery. Eventually they have to kill themselves to escape the guilt of what they have done.
What are your thoughts on this story?
@YaReally, “if you’re going to bring up those analogies etc, bring them up in person, using words and shit that are congruent to you, and don’t do it till you’re out of this excited emotional state a week from now and don’t force the moment and figure out how to bring it up naturally and visualize what she’s going to possibly respond with (good and bad) and how you’ll handle those things congruently to the message you’re trying to send her.” Exactly what I plan to do. Yeah, my initial plan to send the text off was being too excited.… Read more »
Need some advice on getting past oneitis for the wife. We’ve been married for over 10 years and she was over the fucking moon for me for the first few years. I was very alpha with her early on. ZFG, my mission (however I defined it on any given day) was my focus, LOTS of compliance tests, etc. I slowly became more betaized after kids, and years of familiarity, and fell much more into her frame (whereas initially I was TOTALLY in my frame). The strange thing is, I’ve always been pretty intellectually red pill, and I’ve always considered women… Read more »
Following up on the anger = beta thing, I’ve always had a long fuse and little could faze me, but my only weak link in this was my super-high standard of respect for my own standards. That’s why when the wife failed to greet me properly, I lost my shit, but with everything else in my world, little can phase me. Like the Oak tree analogy from the Juggler Method. Before this weekend, if my wife ignored my standards, I’d lose my shit. Like if she didn’t say good morning and started talking about other shit. I’d get pissed inside,… Read more »
@Dutchman Biological organisms, which women are, function at their optimum when they are challenged/stressed. Winemakers know this, and so they make their vines struggle a bit. Zookeepers know this, but don’t generally have a savanna on which they can force their lion prides to march in search of new herds to hunt. Earth biology evolved in a struggle, and only in that fight for survival are we at our best. You are actually doing your wife a disservice by giving her no competition anxiety in her marriage. That’s all dread is, giving her a taste of needing to compete for… Read more »
@Jeremy
Dat guilt doe.
@Dutchman, it helps if you you’re sensitive to, and look for, unsolicited, 3rd party opportunities to stoke Dread and competition anxiety: http://therationalmale.com/2013/05/13/soft-dread/ http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/16/the-gift-of-anxiety/ When you’re married there’s a comfort and familiarity that results in your ‘domestication’ for lack of a better term. For most married men there are precious few opportunities to be the object of social proof or preselection unless they work in a high status job. Even then only higher profile achievement that is recognized by his wife and her family and friends really registers for her, so it’s very important to learn how to prompt this dread… Read more »
@newly – Yes! It sounds like you acted instead of talking. I also find women respond very well to physicality at the right moment. Alpha isn’t a technique, it’s a state of mind. I have to imagine recalibration midstream in a relationship is quite challenging for her too, right? I guess it will probably take you being patient and unflappable in the face of her intransigence for some time for her to trust your dominance enough to want to submit to it.
“CaveClown’s example is where I want to end up. ” Holy shit, I’m a positive example to someone?? Crazy good feelz, lol. (srs) I still struggle with NAWALT, especially since she was a virgin when we got together and talks about how I am her prince charming and the love of her life and how she wants to die first when we are old so that I can give a speech about how devastating it is to lose my soul mate of 60+ years or whatever. (lol, solipsistic much?) But then her head will turn for the 6′ tall cowboy… Read more »
@jeremy – If you want to understand clinical parental alienation watch the Childress vid I linked to. Game as a metaphor to understand it is retarded. One does not get alienated as a father in the sense that I was due to a mother badmouthing you. That is a different problem and much more solvable and of course will yield to game. As all human interactions will.
@Dutchman Start focusing on the other stuff like passing shit tests(couch cuddling). Making sure she works for you. Objectify her. Little stuff, like don’t lean in for kisses. If you kind of settle on the “romantic” sex most of the time try fucking her like you’re a feral animal. Dread stuff. You know… all the shit you read about here. I would just work on your frame first. Then you kind of notice that she likes you more that way. Then you realize she’s just a chick. I go up and down on the spectrum myself. The reality is that… Read more »
@Andy
LOL. Sex. Not much of that lately.
I definitely need to start doing more compliance stuff. I’ve been trying to get her to do more for me (cook me this, go to the store today and get that) and she doesn’t always comply with my requests. I’m thinking I should try compliance tests that don’t actually require her to do anything like “Don’t mention X,Y or Z thing when we go to so and so’s house” as a building block.
“Start focusing on the other stuff like passing shit tests(couch cuddling).” Dominant positioning for starters. She leans into you. If she wants to cuddle on the couch (and we aren’t facing the TV) I make her straddle me, NOT side by side. We are the same height roughly, so I make sure she slides down to her eyes at chest level too (if we are side by side), makes her feel shorter. (or makes me feel taller and more dominant, lol) Cuddling is not a shit test per se, but emasculating positioning can be. It’s all in the attitude, not… Read more »
@ Blax, Andy wtf… I don’t remember if I put my hand(s) on her at that point, but she leaned into me I read this and figured that there must have been some lasering by both Blax and the broad here, so I went to find the original comment. but during that brush-back there was some quick, intense eye contact, and she kept moving in closer and….wtf… I don’t remember if I put my hand(s) on her at that point, but she leaned into me “quick, intense, eye contact”…lasering…eye-fucking…lol A natural can read a field report by another natural and… Read more »
“Cuddling is not a shit test per se, but emasculating positioning can be. It’s all in the attitude, not the actual action, ya know?”
Yeah, exactly. I guess a good way to look at it is… Treat her like she’s just another chick. Then you see that she likes it when you treat her like just another chick… Then you realize she’s just another chick. Then you want to fuck other chicks. lol.
@Cave “Holy shit, I’m a positive example to someone?? Crazy good feelz, lol. (srs)” You turned that shit around bruh. Props yo. “But then her head will turn for the 6′ tall cowboy in boots and a hat and I’m brought back down to reality.” Mine has RARELY done that. So that’s good, I guess. “Lately though, I’ve found myself on the opposite side of NAWALT, and that is believing that all women are sluts and that it is only a matter of time before she cheats on me. This fuels feelings of scarcity, insecurity, and quite frankly paranoia for… Read more »
@ Dutch I can’t get my head to overcome my feelz telling me “No! You can’t be indifferent and create dread! She’s too special! Everything will be FINE if you just spoon with her on the couch for two hours every night.” Fuck, I feel gay typing that shit lol. It’s just your own chemistry messing with you. Oxytocin/vasopressin. You need to get out more and develop options. Focus on creating a habit of going out solo and being social at least one night a week. Lead/follow dancing is great for that. Improves your cardio, physical coordination, agility, leg and… Read more »
“What if she decides this shit doesn’t live up to her ideal and that she just has NO CHOICE but to jump ship so she can remarry somebody that will REALLY live up to her image of shit.”
hehe, yeah that’s a negative feedback loop. You gotta get out of that and into the “she’s just a chick” mode.
“enjoy this fantasy while it lasts motherfucker because it’s temporary as fuck.”
I think this way often.
@ Dutch
Once you realize that you have options, you will think about those options from time to time and a smile will cross your lips. Your wife will observe that and experience Dread.
Once you start flirting with other women, you will also flirt more with your wife, which will be good for your wife’s emotional health.
“Then you want to fuck other chicks. lol.”
Especially if she cuts off sex the first month of marriage. Or later says that no other woman would want me…
Was that a challenge, bitch???
lol
what did she think would happen?
12 chicks later…
@Cave Man one of the things that hit home the most was when you were talking earlier in the thread about how your wife never participates in the group husband bashing sessions anymore. That was exactly how mine USED to be, but now if I look at her texts and shit, it’s all “Explain to me why I just had to have an argument with him about why it’s not okay to blah blah blah” to her friends. I guess I shouldn’t care, but that shit pisses me off, especially since I know it doesn’t HAVE to be that way.… Read more »
@ASD,
All of her friends want to fuck me, so that’s a good thing I guess lol.
““enjoy this fantasy while it lasts motherfucker because it’s temporary as fuck.”
I think this way often.”
That’s because it (effectively) IS temporary… I think the old guys are all ego invested in their marriages and/or chicks are just DIFFERENT at that age. Or they just happen to be all of a certain personality type. This is the same argument we get into Every. Single. Post.
@Andy
I hear you. I’m actually not at all ego invested. I know I would be able to move on if she frivorces me to new and better things. It would still suck though lol.
‘Lawyers can steal more money with a briefcase than a thousand men with guns and masks.-Don Vito Corleone Today, Western societies are “uber”-litigious societies. Sandman did describe in multiple videos that same was the case near the end of Rome. If it was this litigious during of Renaissance, it would not have happened. When there is no sword of Damocles like laws hanging over the men, it is implicit soft dread over all women. Women will behave at least better than how they do now. Thats why FI tries to institute more and more laws upon men. Take back the… Read more »
@ Dutch
All of her friends want to fuck me, so that’s a good thing I guess lol.
Do you really have options? Are you buffering your ego? Do you give off the signal that you have options? It sounds like you’re giving off the signal that you have Oneitis for your wife.
“but she’s really idealistic about marriage lasting for life which a lot of is due to her parents having a really crappy marriage and divorcing and having shitty lives now” Yeah, my wife is really idealistic too, as i said. You take that idealistic view and think that she will bail to find someone she could find that with…maybe you’re right too. Who knows? My reframe on that with my wife: I took that idealistic view my wife has and used it to my advantage. You want a lifelong marriage? You want no divorce in your past? You want the… Read more »
Just an elaboration on the previous post.
Civilized men are trained to obey the law. Going against the law is not an easy option.
It is far easier for civilized men to legitimately kill an enemy than break laws.
The FI takes advantage of this conditioning.
Its is not the FI that neutered the Vikings into the current bunch of Scandinavians. Its their law, over time.
“I think the old guys are all ego invested in their marriages . . .”
.
Damn straight: it did not take me too long after a baby was born to figure out I could not give it a tit. The investment comes from wanting your progeny to survive. Men are not stupid: unlike females who think they can be both mother and father, males are quick to realize what they cannot do; the mistake is not in investment but in idealization.
@asd
They’re attracted to me. If I were to really go for it, I’m sure I’d just fuck it up. But they don’t know that.
@Shiva,
Europeans also executed enormous numbers of criminals (basically anybody displaying anti-social, low impulse control behavior) from about 1500 to 1800, so a lot of those genes for interpersonal aggression are gone.
@Dutchman “They’re attracted to me. If I were to really go for it, I’m sure I’d just fuck it up. But they don’t know that.” To piggyback this and take it on a small tangent —- this is a key realization. To make full use of your externals, you need to have solid ‘game.’ At the very least, the ability to keep escalating. Being rich, having a good body, being a male model, etc. are all powerful aids….but without experience, again, it’s like a little kid who took out his dad’s supercharged car…it comes off like http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/305/224/3e1.jpg Like, let’s say… Read more »
“The investment comes from wanting your progeny to survive.” @SJB Yeah, exactly. But what the fuck am I getting out of this? haha. Yeah, I’ll raise my kids the way they should be raised. That’s pretty much it. It’s basically the “Man Up” argument. I mean I love my wife, and she thinks I’m great, and coos and says “I’m such a lucky girl”…. But like she actually thinks she DESERVES that. Like it’s been pounded into her brain for decades that she’s special, and some day the stars will align and I’ll come along and make her happy for… Read more »
“So many guys believe that if they just can get girls to give them that initial chance, they will be done. Wrong! For a ton of those guys, they have to wait until some girl literally does 90% of the work for them, and the girls who do that just don’t tend to be that hot.” Scray, good points man. I’ve seen this in so many online forums, whether it is bodybuilding.com or forums for leg lengthening or whatever…it’s always, “I bench 400lbs now, but yet women don’t approach me?” or, “I had both my legs broken and now I… Read more »
@CaveClown ““I bench 400lbs now, but yet women don’t approach me?” That’s a mindset thing. Like, TO ME, if I just make SMALL TALK with a girl I don’t know and she’s still talking to me after 3-4 minutes….that may as well be an approach or heavy IOI. It’s just as aggressive on her part in my world. If a girl I don’t know or don’t know that well gives me a compliment (you look good, hey you’re looking fit), same deal. I know dudes who have that exact attitude you mention, but when I go out with them…I see… Read more »
@ scray I’m just enjoying laughing at that pic..overandoverandoverandover I’m sure I come across that way sometimes when I’m in the moment enjoying a dance and a girl rubs her tit against my chest and I’m like wtf just happened??? Then I say something stupid like “If you don’t stop that, I’ll take you outside and kiss you.” lolz…but IDGAS whether or not I fuck it up. I have fun. And the girls keep wanting to dance with me and giggling and Mrs. Gamer keeps wanting to bang me and giggling. Oh wait, I think I see a pattern lolz… Read more »
Scray, Wisdom right there. And I am just as guilty as most other men. I am seeing a shrink over some shit in my life. Feel like a pussy, but whatever. Anyway, the subject of height came up (not the reason I am there) and I said, “Women don’t like short men” He laughed and said, “Or those shoes you’re wearing, or that jacket, or your balding head…I’m too fat personally…and Jerry next door? Way too fucking asian for women to even consider. Only pro-linebackers get women…are you a football fan? Do your kids look like any of the players?… Read more »
@theasdgamer ” And the girls keep wanting to dance with me and giggling and Mrs. Gamer keeps wanting to bang me and giggling.” Dancing is another one. Like, dancing is cool if you like it or whatever, but unless you have some tight game, you’re not going to pull from the dancefloor. You’ll makeout with a ton of chicks, but who gives a shit. I’m not 15, I didn’t come here to neck. I don’t want to keep dancing. I just want to find a chick who grinds on me, then I want to get her off the dancefloor and… Read more »
@Caveclown
“I am seeing a shrink over some shit in my life. Feel like a pussy, but whatever.”
Why do you feel like a pussy? You have to stop worrying about what others think and just get YOUR LIFE handled. Do whatever it takes, try anything (I did and still do). Let go of fear.
@scray
Just started to get into your FRs in the yaReally archive. Really interesting. I’m still working on being open when I meet new people. It’s hard to believe I lived so long thinking that this was just the way I was and it would never change. It’s slow, but I do notice changes already… It’s a mind fuck.
Scray, you’re absolutely right man. Thanks.
I’m not 15, I didn’t come here to neck. Yeah, necking benefits broads, not men. Men want the O. unless you have some tight game, you’re not going to pull from the dancefloor Not commonly. Although, you can spike attraction on the lead/follow dance floor with patterns. We have a term for an emotional spike from dancing–a dance-gasm. Body-turn a woman into a dip, spin her out to where you take her side, spin her back into a lean with your arm across her body with your hand on her tummy as you support her. Roller-coaster. Or take a woman… Read more »
Andy December 14th, 2015 at 12:02 pm ““enjoy this fantasy while it lasts motherfucker because it’s temporary as fuck.” I think this way often.” That’s because it (effectively) IS temporary… I think the old guys are all ego invested in their marriages and/or chicks are just DIFFERENT at that age. Or they just happen to be all of a certain personality type. This is the same argument we get into Every. Single. Post.” Andy, you ignorant douchebag. I like your posting. It’s enthusiastic and perhaps overly optimistic, even if juvenile. You’re using a logical fallacy in stating that some of… Read more »
@Andy: “But what the fuck am I getting out of this?”
Yeah, that’s the pertinent question. I did indeed “Man Up” and now I’m going to man down. I don’t need to feed children anymore so no longer need to retain a set of tits. The current cost far exceeds the value exchange.
And YMMV.
” That we are deluding ourselves into thinking that our arrangement is working for our egos.”
Okay cool. Still though… Maybe something’s different? Is that a possibility in your mind?
@Cave ( My Man ) and Scray – “@Caveclown “I am seeing a shrink over some shit in my life. Feel like a pussy, but whatever.” Why do you feel like a pussy? You have to stop worrying about what others think and just get YOUR LIFE handled. Do whatever it takes, try anything (I did and still do). Let go of fear. I’m Blaximus and I approve this message. There are no pussy’s here. None at all. There are men trying to get shit straight. It is a beautiful thing. : ) You’re doing a great job from what… Read more »
SJF, Good afternoon! ““enjoy this fantasy while it lasts motherfucker because it’s temporary as fuck.” I think this way often.” That’s because it (effectively) IS temporary… I think the old guys are all ego invested in their marriages and/or chicks are just DIFFERENT at that age. Or they just happen to be all of a certain personality type. This is the same argument we get into Every. Single. Post.” – Andy Andy, you ignorant douchebag. I like your posting. It’s enthusiastic and perhaps overly optimistic, even if juvenile. You’re using a logical fallacy in stating that some of us old… Read more »
“There’s an opportunity for him to learn by our examples re: marriage working, but he is torn and unaccepting.”
Okay, “Man Up” and choose happiness. Got it.
Thanks blax!
@Cave, what @Blax said.
We’re all here working through our shit… You do whatever works for you.
While some of us may be further along than others, just be aware that you’re only ‘done’ when they put you in the ground.
@Dutchman
Zat’s vat you say.
““There’s an opportunity for him to learn by our examples re: marriage working, but he is torn and unaccepting.”
Okay, “Man Up” and choose happiness. Got it.”
If “man up” means choosing and walking a path and fully owning it until it’s no longer in your best interest to do so, then yes, I absolutely agree.
Nothing sabotages a man’s mission more than his kvetching about it. IMO, the measure of any man is the degree to which he own’s his shit.
@Andy- “…Okay, “Man Up” and choose happiness. Got it.” Well, yeah mostly. I don’t care for the ” man up ” phrase. It’s been hijacked by the FI and it’s meaning has been corrupted. “…Yeah I can maximize the marriage to get the most out of it, but the reality is I’m never going to overcome that social conditioning where she believes she is getting what she deserves… Because you know… She has a vagina.” Maybe you’re right. I disagree strongly, but I DO know one thing 100%, if you believe you can or can’t do a thing, you are… Read more »
thanks chump no more! “Vaginas are just anatomical things. Lol. If women believe that a hole between their legs empowers them, it is your choice whether of not you cosign and advance that nonsensical mode of thought.” It is really funny, this whole business of gender relations, red pill, etc. All of this mental anguish, societal anguish, and what not, all for control of when and who can put their penis inside a vagina. Really? All for like 30 seconds of pleasure? (sex is a race to see who cums first…right?? lol) I realize it is actually much deeper than… Read more »
Andy, what does it look like when a man isn’t ego-invested in his marriage? Open marriage? I don’t get it.
Unless I’m reading Andy wrong, I think his version of ” ego invested marriage ” means a man become heavily invested in being married to the point where he’s almost committed to the ” idea ” of husbandry that it renders him incapable of…something….
He thinks married guys just defend marriage, regardless of what counterpoints are being offered. Especially ” old guys “. Lol.
@Scray – Too much good stuff coming from you for me to list it all. You seem to have really gotten clear about ego investments and at 53, I’m a bit shocked to find out how ego invested I am when it comes to women (and some other areas of my life). Please, share as much as you can on this, I’m out there running old man game at under 25 hotties and fucking it up left, right and center but I don’t give a fuck. I’m getting better for sure. The other thing that just screams from you is… Read more »
@Cave – You are on fire, we need to hear from guys making LTR work and gaming their wives. I love the “daring” your wife to leave, this strikes me as very old school. I can imagine many of the men I grew up around treating their wives this way (mostly blue collar, working guys). Most men are afraid to escalate with their wives, and I think this gives them license to run wild. The sexual marketplace has changed. I think any guy getting shit from his wife nonstop should take a lead from cave. “Honey, at 38, do you… Read more »
Re: Andy – At least he has the balls to tell us what he really thinks. This may be the most important thing when digesting the Red Pill – being real. Too many guys just use it as another buffer…
@Cave, Nihilist? Maybe. I thinking you’re just working through the stages and you deciding not to make any irrevocable life changes until you get to the other side is a very wise strategy. I see @Andy struggling similarly and think he’d do well to follow your lead. I think one of my greatest epiphanies with regards to women and the red-pill has been that allowing a woman to enter my world/frame is merely a perk from being awesome. Committing to constant self-improvement (physical, mental, spiritual, etc), falling back in love with my mission/passion, developing an abundance mindset were all necessary… Read more »
@ Blax
I was ready to dump my marriage at one point. Is that what not being ego-invested looks like? Ready to push the D button? It would suck to live in a marriage where that’s standard fare.