During the Q&A section of the Man in Demand talk I gave back in September I was asked about where I believed the social dynamic of Open Hypergamy would lead. In specific the idea was proposed, and I agree, that the logical next step for a social order founded on feminine Hypergamy and one that prioritizes the female sexual strategy as preeminent would lead to a state of openly accepted cuckoldry.
Although I can’t say it’s an accepted social dynamic as yet, there are many social indicators that are revealing this push towards a normalized cuckoldry. I’ll explore these for a bit in this essay, but for now these indicators are about a move away from conventional monogamy in the hopes that a ‘soft cuckoldry’ might be a precursor to instituting a more accepted open cuckoldry.
I think it’s also important to keep in mind a couple of primary principles about this shift. First is the fact that, initially, an openly accepted state of feminine-controlled cuckoldry will never be called ‘cuckoldry’ proper. If we use the example of a socially accepted (if not celebrated) open Hypergamy as a model, open cuckoldry will be sold as a more logical, more humane sexual strategy for men and women in light of divorce statistics, romantic boredom and other sexual studies that indicate men and women weren’t evolved for monogamous commitment.
The second is that open cuckoldry is the extension of a unilaterally feminine controlled Hypergamy. That is to say that as Hypergamy becomes more normalized as a social imperative that sexual strategy will extend to optimizing Hypergamy across genders. If that optimization is taken to its logical end it will require men not just to adopt cuckoldry as a norm, but to socially reward them for advocating it among their own sex.
Cuckoldry By Any Other Name
As I said, it wont be called ‘cuckoldry’; the connotations are negative, so a redefining will be made in order to make the practice more socially palatable. The Feminine Imperative wont recruit the very men it needs to perpetuate cuckoldry as their own sexual strategy if the term is derogatory. Thus we’ll get euphemisms for alternative lifestyles, ‘open marriages’ or a “Designer Relationship“:
We live in an era when everything is customizable. Relationships are no exception. Some people will continue to practice their grandparents’ form of monogamy, and others, probably the majority, will be serially exclusive and pair-bonded. Still others will explore some form of non-monogamous expression that encompasses one or more of the facets we’ve discussed or may flow in and out of being exclusive based on what the relationship requires. (We’ve done this ourselves.) Having the ability to customize a relationship means having the freedom to respond to life’s vicissitudes.
The first time I came across the concept of ‘soft polygamy’ I was in a behavioral psychology class exploring the practices of modern marriage and contrasting them with the long term sexual behaviors of men and women. As you might imagine the context of the study focused entirely on the ‘bad behaviors’ of men who essentially transitioned from serial monogamy to serial marriage. The idea was that in the process of moving from one LTR to another men were establishing a soft form of polygamy.
In a social respect, men have far more to lose from serial marriages than do women. The financial liabilities of divorce are well known to the manosphere, but so are the emotional and familial accountabilities. So from a strictly male perspective, serial LTRs are a dicey prospect, but from a female perspective, in a feminine-primary social order, institutionalized Hypergamy and the soft polygamy that results from the Sandbergian sexual strategy, soft cuckoldry becomes pragmatic in optimizing Hypergamy for women.
At this point we should consider the Heartiste maxim about feminism again:
The feminist goal is removing all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality
Institutionalized cuckoldry is the logical means to restricting male sexuality, but we have to consider what function that restriction serves for women. From an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks perspective the plan is simple; restrict that sexuality as women find need for a particular man’s service.
Diamonds and Rust
While I’m reluctant to prognosticate, my guess is that future generations of men will be conditioned to accept their role in this cuckoldry as part of their socialization. The above Forevermark diamond advertisement is one illustration of this. Open Hypergamy and its acceptance has already made its popular debut in mainstream media and advertising, and likewise open cuckoldry is just now finding a social foothold.
It takes the Red Pill Lens to appreciate the efforts as they’re being made by a large society. The Forevermark ad is intended to be funny or cute, but it belies a deeper, more poignant truth about Alpha Widows, Hypergamy and the long term sexual strategy Plan and roles women expect men to play in it.
I was made aware of this ad being circulated from a reader on Twitter and at first thought it was a reworked joke. It is however legit and billboards with this campaign are up in major cities. Without the benefit of a Red Pill Lens I can see how most men would laugh it off or women might giggle sardonically about it, but the the fact remains that a clever copywriter is aware of the sexual dynamics that make it funny.
I pulled the following quote from Deti on one of Dalrock’s more recent post:
“I think what we will continue to see is growing disengagement.”
Yeah, this has been discussed here and elsewhere in the almost 5 years I’ve been around here.
I think that what will happen is that things will continue sliding in the same direction they’re going now, until a critical mass is reached. I don’t know what that critical mass is, what will trigger it, or when it will be reached.
We live in a mostly free society with a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. We have maximum freedom and autonomy right now, with both sexes being free to pursue pretty much whatever they want, however they want to. That is the prime characteristic driving the current circumstance — that, and up to now, there’s been enough money taxed, borrowed and stolen to pay for it.
A growing number of men are not getting as much sex as they want. A growing number of women aren’t getting commitments in the form they want — when they want or from the men they want.
So things are going to keep sliding that way. More and more men will walk away and direct what energies they have left elsewhere — into work, or beer/bros/Xbox/porn, or travel/leisure. (Oddly enough, this might make many of them more attractive to women, since they’re spending less time directing their attentions to women.) More and more men will earn just enough to support themselves, since they don’t plan on marriage, and fatherhood is out of the question. They will lack the skills to improve their lives. They will not get nearly as much sex as they want, but they will learn to live with it — mostly through porn, the occasional hookup, and the even more occasional prostitute. The price of prostitutes will skyrocket as demand increases; and a few more women will go into high-end call girl work to earn side money.
More and more women will direct their attentions into their work, travel/leisure, and having children without men. (This will definitely make more of them less attractive to men except as on again, off again sex partners.) They will not get the commitments from men they want, but they will learn to live with it. They will complain about it with increasing volume and shrillness, but they’ll learn to live with it.
Until something happens to cause the tides to turn. Again – don’t know what, or when, or how. But something will happen to cause a hard reset. And it will be exquisitely painful for everyone. I don’t want it to happen, nor do I relish it. It’s not something to desire or look forward to because of the pain it will bring. But I do think it will happen. I don’t think it will happen in my lifetime or my kids’ lifetimes. We could easily slide like this for another 50 to 100 years.
I think one consequence of this separation of the genders will include a socially normalized institution of cuckoldry. To take hold it will need to be termed something different, but in effect the process of women conceiving with one man and then expecting another man to parentally invest himself in that child will be a casual expectation of women. With so many men effectively (if not intentionally) going their own way, the idea that any man wouldn’t be expected to serve as a surrogate parent will become commonplace.
Genders divided by feminism or feminine social primacy will need a ‘customized’ form of cuckoldry that allows for the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy to be reconciled with the Beta Bucks side by enlisting different men for either purpose.
The Pink Pill
I want to end here with an essay I read recently on the fallout of the new female form of Viagra:
In an infamous cartoon in The New Yorker in 2001, one woman confides to a friend over drinks: ‘I was on hormone replacement for two years before I realized what I really needed was Steve replacement.’ Medicine has been reluctant to engage the question of just how much monogamy and long-term togetherness affect sexual function and desire, and the ‘Steve’ problem remains an issue that is tacitly acknowledged and yet under-discussed. To return to Julie’s growing pile of self-help titles, the books all promise to return, revive, restore without really getting down to the brass tacks of why desire extinguished in the first place. As Julie notes, the honeymoon grinds to an end, but the issues leading there are complex. In short supply is attention to the way mind and body react to social structures such as popular media, faith and marriage.
To develop drugs to boost libido is like ‘giving antibiotics to pigs because of the shit they’re standing in’
The American psychologist Christopher Ryan argues that the institution of modern marriage – meaning an exclusive couple bound by romantic love – is antithetical to long-term excitement. Ryan is best known for Sex at Dawn (2010), a book authored with his wife Cacilda Jethá, that makes the case that sexual monogamy is deeply at odds with human nature. He is among a growing number of researchers suggesting that the rift between women’s purportedly limitless sexual potential and their dulled actuality might owe to the circumstances of intimacy. Accordingly, the conjugal bed is not only the scene of dwindling desire, but its fundamental cause. The elements that strengthen love – reciprocity, closeness, emotional security – can be the very things that smother lust. While love angles toward intimacy, desire flourishes across a distance.
The entire article is very insightful if not a bit depressing, but with the Red Pill Lens we can begin to understand the latent purpose behind the message. I’ve gone on record about the pushback against clearing the pink pill for use as being a direct threat to women’s control of their own Hypergamy. The concern, ostensibly, is that a libido stimulating drug might be used to induce a woman into having sex that her otherwise sober sense would prevent; effectively it could be a ‘rape’ drug.
What’s finally being addressed in this article however is what I’ve been saying since I was aware of the drug’s trials – a chemical that induces libido in women removes an element of their control in sexual selection and compromises Hypergamy. I’m not entirely sure the author was aware of the points she was revealing in this, but she succinctly makes the case for both institutionalized cuckoldry (or certainly a ‘customized’ soft polygamy for women) and advocates for women maintaining control of their Hypergamy unclouded by a drug that would remove that control by chemically inducing them into sex that isn’t of their own choosing.
The ‘cure’ to women’s low libido is holistic, not biological. Women’s sexual deficiencies are presumed not to be the result of a ‘broken’ biology, but rather a lack of proper motivation. I should point out that all of this validates all the points I was making about Dread in marriage last month on Biblical Gender Roles – maintaining a condition of proper motivation (i.e. Dread), the holistic cure, is exactly what even femosphere authors are tacitly advocating.
The elements that strengthen love – reciprocity, closeness, emotional security – can be the very things that smother lust.
Yet now, even when a pharmaceutical solution to the lust problem is made available the ‘cure’ is rejected. Why? Because on a root, limbic level women’s hindbrains know that Hypergamy cannot be optimized with a drug that removes Hypergamous choice. The real solution has never changed and women are now put into a position of having to openly acknowledge that for all of the pretense of “mismatched libidos” or “sex just declines after marriage” social conventions, men’s cuckoldry is the real plan for Hypergamy.
When presented with a pill that will make them sexual, when given a cure to their low sex drives with the men who’ve made lifetime commitments to them, women will still refuse to take it. Hypergamous doubt can’t be quelled with a pill.
@Shiva: “Its is not the FI that neutered the Vikings into the current bunch of Scandinavians. Its their law, over time.”
Who was the primary beneficiary of their law?
“As through this world I’ve rambled,
I’ve met lots of funny men.
Some rob you with a six gun,
some with a fountain pen.”
-Pretty Boy Floyd; Woody Guthrie
@Dutchman: “Dat guilt doe.”
Is FI programming. Let it go, it serves no purpose for you. Decide what is right, then just do it.
Glenn, thanks. Chicks act like they got all these options, and they do…for sex. But beyond that? A strong man? A valuable man? Maybe… But what value does she bring to this new high value husband replacement? That’s right, sex. Crazy how that works. It all leads to sex. Unless she wants a beta…
Asd, I have divorce papers on file at my attorneys office at all times. Date change and a quick file and I could be divorced in 60, whenever I want.
She’s in my frame. I love her, but IDGAF.
Andy That’s because it (effectively) IS temporary… I think the old guys are all ego invested in their marriages and/or chicks are just DIFFERENT at that age. Or they just happen to be all of a certain personality type. This is the same argument we get into Every. Single. Post.” You might want to review Rollo’s SMV chart while contemplating the fact that divorces in the over 50 crowd are not nearly as common as they are in the 35 – 45 age group. Sure, the Boomers are screwing that up, but the reality is quite obvious: Once a woman… Read more »
@Glenn Good Evening Bruv…. ” Re: Andy – At least he has the balls to tell us what he really thinks. This may be the most important thing when digesting the Red Pill – being real. Too many guys just use it as another buffer…” I agree. It’s just that sometimes my man Andy will just make statements that appear to be an overreaction, and he seem to reject correction. I get that he’s just saying what he thinks/believes and I cosign and support him in that. But if I have a different view based on experience, I’d be remiss… Read more »
Chump No More
I think one of my greatest epiphanies with regards to women and the red-pill has been that allowing a woman to enter my world/frame is merely a perk from being awesome.
Scray’s FR’s, YaReally’s FR’s, adsgamer, scribblerg, Blaximus, and a bunch of others will tell you in different ways the same danged thing, and that is:
It is a gift from you to her to allow her into your frame.
You. Are. The. Prize. Not. Her.
@Anonymous Reader ” You might want to review Rollo’s SMV chart while contemplating the fact that divorces in the over 50 crowd are not nearly as common as they are in the 35 – 45 age group. Sure, the Boomers are screwing that up, but the reality is quite obvious:” I got divorced at 35. ” Once a woman is over 45 her chances of remarrying go into a steady and continuous decline. It’s not just the numbers (more women than men in that cohort) it’s the SMV. Sure, there are stupid Eat Betray Love cases, but they are fewer… Read more »
Interesting post. I learned a lot, and gained some self-reflection. I appreciate the way you highlight the soft manipulation power woman use and have used in the institution of marriage. I see and have seen this and I think it is important for women to be aware of and accountable for. It is something that does bother me deeply when it happens and I think of the men in my life who have suffered due to deep manipulations from spouses, partners, mothers and friends. The only thing that made little sense to me was this quote that was taken from… Read more »
The problem with consent laws isn’t that they focus on keeping women from unwanted advances from men, but that, like Yes Means Yes, they focus on giving women post-fact retribution assurances should the man they chose to have sex with later become a regret. http://therationalmale.com/2014/10/19/yes-means-fear/ http://therationalmale.com/2015/08/19/peak-hypergamy/ There is no more blatant a law that illustrates institutionalized and legislated Hypergamy than a woman’s ubiquitous and exclusive right to choose an abortion. The right for women to have safe and legal abortions finds it’s root in women’s want to mandate an insurance of their Hypergamous impulses. Nothing says “he wasn’t the right… Read more »
@Anonymous – Was hanging w/my 54 yr old sis over the weekend and we were discussing her health and that of other post-menopausal women. She doesn’t know a single women in her mid-40s forward who isn’t on some kind of medication(s). She’s had thyroid problems, high blood pressure, dry eyes and a zillion other things. Me? 53, BP 115/71, no meds, no diagnoses (other than the psychological ones which go unmedicated as I kind of love being the crazy old bastard I am, lol). Nature has no use for an infertile women but it turns out older men can still… Read more »
Blaximus I agree. It’s just that sometimes my man Andy will just make statements that appear to be an overreaction, and he seem to reject correction. He’s having to learn as he goes, on the fly, while putting out fires at the same time. He has to re-align his own thinking (that’s “neural pathways” in Biology of Desire terms) while attempting to re-train his wife in proper behavior and while coping with small children plus whatever his paying job is. Sure, he tends to reject correction, because up til recently he thought he was “doing it right”, and now we’re… Read more »
@Anonymous Reader
I agree completely. Andy’s okay and I hope he stays around.
You hear that ANDY???? : )
( You prolly did. Only us old folks have difficulty hearing…)
@Vidyay – So what do you make of this clip? [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZD0JRoKSq4&w=560&h=315%5D Or the fact that many more women have a rape fantasy than women do? I was shocked to find that out. I was shocked when I learned that women love rough sex. What do you make of the popularity of hardcore, rough sex lothario James Deen with mad numbers of young women? Or the wild popularity of 50 shades of Grey? Over 100 million western women masturbating to being dominated and taken in a way where consent is not clear? Don’t get mad at me – I am… Read more »
@Anonymous – I’m not quite there yet. When they are 20 and hot, suddenly they are the prize. I should share that this aspect is deeply confronting to me. As a victim of lots of childhood abuse, low self-esteem was just part of the package. A lot of my 15 years of various kinds of therapy was about dealing with this, and I thought I had done very well with it. Turns out that what I’ve done is develop ego investments and buffers to compensate for negative beliefs about myself. Worse yet? Those buffers prevent me from dealing with these… Read more »
@Ya, Anonymous, Scray and everyone – In fact, what I realized I’ve been doing with young women is running “soft Sugar Daddy game”. Not direct provisioning in cash terms but being a mentor etc. It’s funny though, when a chick over 30 is involved, it doesn’t happen. I’m the prize. Hence me ejecting all my “plates”. I was their orbiter who they fucked sometimes for goodies like a nice steak dinner and weed at my place, mentoring them, helping them get into rehab or a business started or back in school. Sometimes the sex could be good, but only when… Read more »
Re: Vidyayforherself – Made the mistake of clicking through to her blog entitled, of course, “Everything and All of It” – I mean, why not, she’s a woman so she should have everything and all of it and also be able to lecture us from her fucked-in-the-head social justice warrior perch of moral superiority about everything. Amongst the pile of drivel she emits, she rails against “undiagnosed white supremacy” – it’s a “diagnosis” now? Hey, honey, tell me, if whites weren’t “superior” in some way, how did they take over and run your entire goddamn country for a long time… Read more »
scribblerg:
My ex – who didn’t really shit test me in the traditional sense – left me for another guy. A guy she knew before we even met. She was 39 then.
That stuff only works if the chick has no options. Some of them do, these orbiters who they know will scoop them up if they are on the market. Then what, if she’s willing to walk? And you have kids?
@Striver – Maybe not marry such a cunt in the first place? But hey, of course, never escalate, just let her walk all over you “for the kids”. Gosh, why didn’t I think of that? And oh yeah, your wife left without you escalating, correct? Hmmm.
Re:Vidayayayaya’s blog – And I quote: “As an empathic academic and semi-rageful yoga practitioner with lofty nutritional interests and poor discipline, I find myself scouring a range of topics, partially as an expression of my immense capacity to procrastinate essential tasks, and partially due to a real interest and genuine inquiry into humanness, global citizenry, religion-politics, ecology, astronomy, wholeness and brokenness.” Fuck, what utterly self-absorbed drivel. And she’s an ‘academic”. Is that what our intellectual life has become? Self absorption and moralistic preening? Note how she tries to make normal her obvious dysfunctional being. As though there is something worthy… Read more »
@vidyayogini84: ” I don’t want to have to respond to a cat call if I don’t want to . . .” Do you typically get cat called with a gun to your head? @Scribbler: “There’s no need for all that . . . Well if you wanted to get acquainted why didn’t you just say so?” One of the finest red pill moments in film. This is another, watch from 5:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B-SuV5-f7o Fucking beautiful. One of the things I am thankful for is being a young man when they still made films like these. There may have been no manosphere,… Read more »
Cat calling…
Either I make a gal’s day by giving her a hit of validation, or I piss off an uptight bitch.
Where’s the downside?
(Other than perpetuating the female validation cycle)
How is the 500 likes and comments “you’re so beautiful!” on her social media account any different?
It’s just virtual cat calling, the difference is that on the street its one or two guys and online it’s hundreds.
Next time I’m on the street and see a hot chick I’m just gonna yell, “like!”
Then I’ll take a picture and yell, “share!”
Striver,
No one has said that with proper game and red pill application that all marriages will last. Just the same as with proper game you can’t just fuck any chick you want.
My marriage could blow up tonight, who knows?
Some chicks are just to dysfunctional and stupid tbh.
Blaximus: “Shit tests. Lol. Fuck that. Yeah, if a chick is shit testing a dude fast and furiously it may alter a guy’s perception of various issues. Answer: Get Better.” Cave: “I am seeing a shrink over some shit in my life. Feel like a pussy, but whatever.” Blaximus is entirely correct. Three years ago I came to the realization that I had either forgotten or blanked out of mind the concept of women shit-testing men. I had heard of the concept in The Game by Strauss. It all came back to me at that time (three years ago) as… Read more »
@SJF – Just to be clear, I don’t oppose actual therapy for real psychological issues. I think what we do here is about egging each other in the game of self-improvement, and about learning, and supporting each other too. We aren’t therapists, and should always make clear that we are pretty much just other bozos on the bus. chopping it up as we see it. That said, the fraternity and support of other men on this challenging path is essential. I just corresponded with SJF yesterday, venting some very negative emotions which had overtaken me. It’s interesting, given our intense… Read more »
SJF, If I like a gal enough, if/when she tries shit testing me, I’ll nuke her and then explain that she shouldn’t waste herself with that manner of conversation. I do this one time only. That’s if I like her and want to pursue an LTR or more. My first wife, who I’d known since she was 12, had plenty of time to figure me out and she was pretty good. Even when I temporarily lost my mind and destroyed our marriage, she resisted shit testing me. Actually, looking back, she was despondent and sad, I assume now, that her… Read more »
“I just corresponded with SJF yesterday, venting some very negative emotions which had overtaken me. “ Shit, I was going to do my best imitation of a killdeer bird to lure ASD away from you. I was going to ask him some questions about my own ASD traits (hey, newsflash, I just got what those initials mean Autism Spectrum Disorder–I didn’t know that before just now) to shake him off you, or you off him. But I got busy with work and then an after work dinner party. Killdeer. Their name comes from their frequently heard call. These birds will… Read more »
@ Blaximus
Not surprising at all–not being shit tested. You are an apex man. Even with the first wife (she was a fool). You just get it. You had good mentors. And you are good at being a man. And it wasn’t luck. You worked at it all your life and you had (and you have) mastery over being good at being a man. I admire that and the words you type here. Any woman that would dare shit test you is a fool.
In my case the ex was willing to emotionally two-time me from Day One. I likely would have had to know that. I think in the back of her head it was always “I can leave for this other guy if I’m not happy” and I realistically would have had a hard time countering that. Since I did not know. I mean, she probably has her own issues in having to keep this guy on the emotional back burner in the first place. But I did not know. Now I am dating two women. They both would have issues in… Read more »
@Striver – Wow, that must have been rough. Talk about hypergamy in action. I understand why LTR is not something you are looking for, i was that way for a while too. Here’s an unexpected development for me. As I game more and become more Red Pillish, I find myself wanting an LTR. At first this shocked me but I realized I’d become terribly cynical due to having my guts ripped out. But I have to admit that game may have saved my marriage, although with her covert NPD, who knows? However, as Blax says, she was dissatisfied with me… Read more »
“Andy’s okay and I hope he stays around.” I’m not going anywhere, but neither is this conversation. This isn’t going to be productive when my feeling isn’t even considered valid. When you guys want to get down off of your high horses and have a fucking debate let me know. There’s obviously still a gap between what my life actually is right now, and what you think of it. And honestly I don’t have the energy right now to type it all out. Also, I think there may be a lot of different factors that contribute to our different feelings… Read more »
“I was so focused on provision in my late 20s, working insane hours and building my career with her at home with the baby, and I thought this was enough. I never understood why she wasn’t satisfied with me taking all that seriously enough to be a sole provider and building a financial future that would support us well.” Yeah, bitter part of the red pill for me for sure. I make money, that’s what i do. Men respect me for it, women either get jealous or don’t give a shit…wife included. Caused me to take a LONG hard look… Read more »
Aww, Andy wants us to “suck his dick” too but doesn’t know how to ask nicely, lol. Andy, you’ve got it all figured out – only none of us want what you have. Go start your own community and preach your BS, perhaps three chodes will eventually find it…
@ SJF Cool on picking up what ASD means. The “disorder” part is controversial among autists. Some of us very high functioning (VHF) autists like being autistic. (Those who call us “spergy” can fuck off, lol.) For many autists, autism is a personal disaster. YMMV. I expect that autism has some genetic roots and some epigenetic gloss that moderates the expression of autism based on the environment. Maybe mercury has some impact, Idk. (Yeah, Rollo, I have looked deeply into evolutionary theory and research. I’m not current, tho.) In any case, evolutionary theory would say that since autism has remained… Read more »
Do you think that my posts indicate that I would give a shit about getting validation from anyone here? I’m not here to coddle or be coddled. I’m not here to make friends either. I don’t really take much satisfaction from being friends with an avatar and a screen name. I’m only here to figure shit out. I’m sure I could be friends with some of you in person, but I’m not going to suck dicks so that I keep getting people’s opinions. Although I’ll admit I heart CaveClown and yaReally.
@Andy: “Do you think that my posts indicate that I would give a shit about getting validation from anyone here?”
Yes, your posts represent an expenditure of your precious ticking time on Earth. You wouldn’t type all those words, hit submit, and post replies if you thought they wouldn’t get posted and read by others. A person who writes about his life and “doesn’t give a shit about getting validation from anyone” is a person who writes in a diary and hides it under their bed.
@ASD – Funny how you want compassion and deep technical understanding for your situation but have none for mine. And I only cracked on you as a sperg when you decided to start telling how my daughter’s clinical alienation from me was a problem with my game – and you did so because you were angry after our exchange about politics where you simply cannot compete with me.
I have all the compassion in the world for people with ASD, just not fucking assholes who take cheap shots and cannot own their shit.
@ No Andy,I think your posts indicate you are an arrogant. semi-smart fool who I would never befriend here or in IRL.
A little too black and white on this stuff Rollo. Sure cuckoldry, as you call it is becoming the norm.. the euphemism being “mixed family”. But I see the majority of instances not being a chick who had the child of some alpha bad boy, or even alpha good boy.. I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better. The poor dad is just an every day average guy who got his heart broken by the bitch. So, ponder if you will, if there is a difference… Read more »
@Tuff, I’ve got a followup post to this coming which addresses your points here, but you might read Hats Off to the Bull before I make it live:
http://therationalmale.com/2015/07/05/hats-off-to-the-bull/
Tuffluv, Rollo will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is saying… “Open” as in “no longer attempting to hide the truth” and “we expect men to accept this” (AA/BB / hypergamy) as opposed to… “Open” as in “i sit in the corner and watch some alpha stud bang my wife.” (if I watch some alpha stud bang my wife, it’s only because I have a mirror by the bed, knowwhatimsayin?) “I just see fickle chicks who dumped the baby daddy cuz she either found something better or went looking for something better.” Meaning she found MORE… Read more »
newlyaloof – late posting to the thread, but imo you shouldn’t lean too much on financial rewards/punishment (debit card issue). reads too much like an attempt to negotiate desire in contravention of RT’s admonishment. the money control angle for married men can work to a point to demonstrate who’s boss, but when princess realizes she can just take half your shit at the end of the day in divorce, that threat point can turn to a negative concentrate on rewarding/punishing with your presence, attention, approval, protection and social status – that’s what she really wants and she can never take… Read more »
@ scribbler I do in fact have some compassion for your situation (which is very appropriate) and don’t need your compassion for my ASD (which is inappropriate and patronizing). How could you fail to understand that our situations are not congruent? We don’t need to discuss parental alienation. I can post about it for others and you can ignore my posts. You can ignore my posts about ASD, too, if you like. You can ignore all my posts if you like, lol. I’m not looking for anyone’s validation, though I do sometimes look for confirmation since that’s epistemically a good… Read more »
@ key
http://therationalmale.com/2015/12/07/open-cuckoldry/comment-page-8/#comment-131649
+1 Very insightful.
Even prehistoric communities / societies benefited from having a few autistic individuals around. Probably major inventions like starting fires reliably and the wheel came from an autistic mind that was more interested in “boring research” than in hunting. Whether those individuals themselves were having offspring or if it just passed on through their relatives I wouldn’t know. With technological developments being faster, modern societies benefits even more from having a larger percentage of autistic individuals around. Conversely, the ones that are higher functioning (many of which would be identified as eccentric) are also career success, often with associated financial terms… Read more »
I like Andy’s inurface style. He asks important questions, even if they’ve been asked before. Andy is engaging and relevant.
“Biggest lesson learned regarding relationships this weekend: Anger is beta.”
Anger is beta. Violence is alpha.
Simple anger is an impotent emotion. It shows you feel strongly about something but are too weak to change that thing to suit you. When anger is backed by the will and the capability to effect change, it becomes violence. Not necessarily physical violence.
“Not necessarily physical violence.”
noun; behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
Let’s not accept the feminine definition:
strength of emotion, “the violence of her own feelings”
Even the dictionary recognizes by their usage example that the use is feminine.
Note as well that one can apply force without being violent:
noun; strength or energy as an attribute of physical action or movement.
Thank you SJF.
The Blue Pill: expecting to stay within the feminine-defined version of masculinity and not be denigrated as a father. So much Blue Pill misconception in one short clip. It’s actually amazing looking at it from where I am now.
Strange part for me is the subconscious perception of what’s demonstrated there is why even before the Red Pill I never intended to get married. The guys that accept it just strike me as unfortunate suckers.
You’re welcome. Social proof. See that’s what guys do in a gang/group. Acknowledge other men’s merits in relationship to the group dynamic. And contribute. I don’t know what Andy’s smoking (maybe he should switch over to the Indica for the pain). His “you guys sucking each other’s cock’s” routine is pretty damn trite. His problem is he doesn’t care what other guys in a group think of him. That doesn’t work in a group dynamic of men. May work with your wife or girlfriend or the neighborhood mom’s, but not here. Maybe Forge can make sense out of the holiday… Read more »
*yawn* Okay, lemme see wut I missed. ” I’m not going anywhere, but neither is this conversation. This isn’t going to be productive when my feeling isn’t even considered valid. I consider all of your ” feelz ” valid. You are entitled to feel however you..well.. feel. ” When you guys want to get down off of your high horses and have a fucking debate let me know.” My horse does not partake in drugs or alcohol. ” There’s obviously still a gap between what my life actually is right now, and what you think of it.” I don’t know… Read more »
@Sun “Strange part for me is the subconscious perception of what’s demonstrated there is why even before the Red Pill I never intended to get married. The guys that accept it just strike me as unfortunate suckers.” That video made me grit my teeth. I would like to believe that the example in the vid does not actually represent the bulk of dads irl. I do not know anyone in my social circles that thinks like that guy does. The FI is in full control of most major media now. I pay no mind to their bullshit representations or suggestions… Read more »
Re: caring what other men think
I have a very hard time relating to men.
Successfully navigating this forum, and being able to communicate with the men here without validation seeking, is actually a step in my plan for masculine self improvement.
Yes, I’m just using y’all for my own benefit, lol.
Feedback from men I respect, here and IRL, is a real game changer.
“Yes, I’m just using y’all for my own benefit.”
FIFY, and thank you.
@CaveClown
Every guy here with an internal mental point of origin is doing the same. It is the basic characteristic from which all Alpha behavior eventually flows. Among masculine Men, it is an accepted trait that is mutually understood and respected. Everyone has needs. Men are just more prepared to help those who are obviously intent on helping themselves since they’ll be less of a burden to the group in the end.
@Forge – I get your point, notwithstanding KFG’s corrections which I agree with from one POV. Here’s what I think is a better way to look at this. No emotional state is “beta” or “alpha” – any emotional state, and any action can be undertaken from either position in a social hierarchy. Alpha is social dominance, among other things. Dominance can be gentle or rough, sweet or rageful. Feckless rage which seeks to aggrandize one’s own ego is usually “beta” in that it’s an expression of one’s powerlessness. As for violence, we no longer live under the law of the… Read more »
@Blaximus I would like to believe that the example in the vid does not actually represent the bulk of dads irl. I do not know anyone in my social circles that thinks like that guy does. I would say that the vast majority of fathers/married men I’ve known in my life, including many friends who’ve had children, are to some degree that way. Rarely are they that aware of the problem yet so incorrect in the solution or blithely ignorant as to the causes, but it’s always somewhere on the tip of their tongue. Even a couple of the Natural… Read more »
@scribblerg The next thing I’d say is to just get out there and do it. You can do A LOT every day. I used to go out 4 days a week for 1-3 hours. And this is after work, after the gym, and after putting in some time studying for whatever career move I’m going to make next. Just memorize a MM stack and go spit it at women. That’s it. No bullshit. Then come back here and just post those interactions. Write them HONESTLY, like a journalist would (to the best of your ability). Read the constructive criticism you… Read more »
@Cave – And it’s a pleasure to read your commentary. I’m trying to learn about LTR game as I find myself more interested in one daily. I’m out on a date with an LTR prospect tomorrow night, we’ll see how it goes.
kfg & sun,
Thanks guys.
30 years of beta indoctrination camp taught me to not consider my own needs, and to consider men the enemy and competition.
re: The dad video
See’s the problem, fucks up the solution. Yeah, most dads I know are way worse than that though. At least this guy takes exception to the “bumbling babysitting dad” script. Most just accept whatever the little woman tells them.
“@Cave – And it’s a pleasure to read your commentary. I’m trying to learn about LTR game as I find myself more interested in one daily. I’m out on a date with an LTR prospect tomorrow night, we’ll see how it goes.” Hope it goes well! As scray just said, post those FR’s! ****** Here’s some “positive” LTR game, a lot of what I’ve written lately is boundaries and such which comes off as negative… Me, “I decided I needed to both see the sun and get laid, so I am flying to [warm place]…wanna come?” Her, “Of course! That… Read more »
@Scray – Thanks man. That level of effort doesn’t interest me, I’m content to go out to venues specifically gaming 2-3 times a week. I also game everywhere I go. As for getting to know people, uh, my business is people and I have quite a good handle on socializing and meeting people etc, and generally meet people and strike up conversations wherever I go. They hold little surprise for me. Fyi, I have a high N and was a half assed natural of sorts when younger. My current growth spurt has come from realizing that I was ego invested… Read more »
Blaximus “If swallowing the RP was easy, everybody would do it.” Cosign http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q-FZzLPjl7Q “Coming here, I never leave empty headed. In order to learn, sometimes you have to be more open to facts and ideas that may run counter to your beliefs.” That is why I admire the fuck out of learning from you over a computer screen. @Rollo Tommasi “Nothing says “he wasn’t the right guy” like the unilateral power to abort a man’s genetic legacy in utero.” http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DUbRsUIQ6U0 Genome alpha http://www.portlandpua.com/stylelife/Files/Preparing/The%20Red%20Queen%20by%20Matt%20Ridley.pdf @Striver “But I can understand why guys don’t persevere, it’s not easy.” With to long a break… Read more »
Sun ” It’s honestly reflective of the vast majority of examples of men and fathers I’ve seen in my life since I was young, and it’s only increased as my generation has had children.” Woah. Goddamn, I gotta get out more evidently. Although I do know 1 22 year old father, but he doesn’t have a clue about being a father and raising his son. I tell him all the time ” there’s a jail cell with your kid’s name on it..”. I usually see shitty dads that don’t care enough, or recognize the value in shaping a life to… Read more »
@scribblerg “My current growth spurt has come from realizing that I was ego invested in seeing myself as “still good with women” at my age.” But then… “As for getting to know people, uh, my business is people and I have quite a good handle on socializing and meeting people etc, and generally meet people and strike up conversations wherever I go. They hold little surprise for me.” “Fyi, I have a high N and was a half assed natural of sorts when younger. ” ” I was blessed with a high SMV and was naturally dominant when younger.” It’s… Read more »
@scribblerg
Resilience
http://www.dci.org.uk/zipped/Resistance.pdf
Resistance
http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/kaizan/the-warofartstevenpressfield
Blax: “Game is about more than just picking up chicks.” Cave: “I have a very hard time relating to men.” It is important to note that your success from gaming women will also come from gaming men. If you don’t realize that gaming men is important, you are missing a lot. Did Andy not read, the Art of Amog? How can you say that other men’s opinion of him doesn’t matter? Is this not a social forum of men? Wtf? You have to game the other men here. You have to be their friends. You have to have honor among… Read more »
Regarding anger and violence: I think violence would be more beta, such as it is, because the betas need to go there. An alpha can afford to be all peace and love, he’s getting laid. Beta isn’t. Old SNL skit with Bill Murray and Steve Martin. They play two cavemen; Murray is dumb, and Martin is smart. Murray pretty much says “I am strong” and Martin goes on about all the wonderful things that will happen in the world because he’s smart and can divine the future. Then Martin goes and screws the cavewoman (Laraine Newman.) After Martin goes to… Read more »
“She needs to see other men out there–even the 6’3″ good looking men, when you are only 5’7″–and interact with them.”
And Sjf cuts right through all the bullshit and goes right to the heart of my insecurities…
Height insecurity is gonna be the death of me I swear.
“Height insecurity is gonna be the death of me I swear.”
Many people have died from and among their insecurities. Last time I checked not a lot of people died from simply being 5’7”.
We’re not all equal and blessed with the best of qualities.
See how your eyes froze up on that one sentence instead of the rest of my thoughts and comment?
YaReally (and everyone else!) – just a quick drop in comment to say: 1. I’ve almost finished Julien’s PIMP (everything except “closing”) and it’s great, except for how he just gives new names to everything – like why call it “vibing”? Why not just say “comfort”? But some fantastic concepts – will post more later, but was particularly impressed by the devalidation stuff which you also said you liked, and for me personally his “five pillars” of conversational structure – which is basically him saying it’s okay to ask interview style questions of death if you subcommunicate the right things… Read more »
@SJF “induce the risk of socially awkward situations and won’t help you to mature into a more attractive man.” I put myself in this position all the time as a child and teen growing up. It’s being here where I find I meet that maturity and growth. “Women are social creatures, and will derive emotional satisfaction from being with a man capable of being with a variety of women.” Again a dance buddy of mine is the one the teaches this to me the most. Also from trial and error. @Caveclown “Height insecurity is gonna be the death of me… Read more »
SJF, I concur fully. Not to offend anyone at all, but it seems that many of the younger generation, what I call ” The Smartphone/social media Generation ” have lost the immense benefit of male camaraderie. They seem to suffer from what that kind of isolation brings. Eveyone needs someone at certain stations in life, and by “someone”, I refer to an actual person physically present. ” • Regular, social interaction with men who are attractive to women. Uncalibrated and unattractive men induce the risk of socially awkward situations and won’t help you to mature into a more attractive man.… Read more »
Yes.
Law #18
Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself – Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere – everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from – it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.
@Blaximus The Smartphone/social media Generation have lost the immense benefit of male camaraderie. Not to deny your point, but I think it isn’t just male camaraderie that’s been lost. It’s so rare to know your neighbors because they come home and start watching Netflix inside. It’s so hard to get people to understand I don’t like phone conversations because I’d rather just meet and talkin person. It’s so hard to keep your married friends social because they disappear in to a social world organized almost exclusively by their wives. It’s so hard to get people to hold an argument reasonably… Read more »
Sun, Great expansion and 100% true. Your point about neighbors is especially true in my case. I know my immediate neighbors to my left and right, and I know 1 neighbor diagonally across the street, but there are at least 60-70 other people on my street that I do not really know at all. Slightly OT- When my 18-22 year old goddaughters show up to sunbathe and use the pool in the summer, it’s amazing how many neighbors show up to suddenly sit on their decks or pull weeds. I really feel that technology, the way it’s marketed and used,… Read more »
@Sun Wukong Hey, some guy wrote this in 1974: “Were packed and out of the motel at just about check-out time and are soon into the coastal redwood forest, across out of Oregon into California. The traffic is so heavy we dont have time to look up. Its turning cold and grey and we stop and put on sweaters and jackets. Its still cold, somewhere in the low fifties, and we think winter thoughts. Lonely people back in town. I saw it in the supermarket and at the Laundromat and when we checked out from the motel. These pickup campers… Read more »
@ Cave
Height insecurity is gonna be the death of me I swear.
I googled “frozen balls & dick” & found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0cPsmAXx8s
We got your back. You’re responsible for your own package. 😉
What’s your action plan to deal with your insecurity?
@Scray – Not sure from your reply where the inconsistency or issue with my comment was that had you excerpt and compare but just know that I’m open to any criticism. I didn’t go out tonight cuz my head is kind of fucked up. I’m gonna share this and hope it’s not boring for everyone. I find when I’m upset like I am right now that going out is just useless. I can control my emotions most of the time, but sometimes I get overwhelmed. It’s actually about my work and business and shit I’m not doing that I need… Read more »
Joseph South via SJF: “Men, note well: encourage your woman to maintain normal, regular social interaction with males of her acquaintance. If you are the man of her dreams, her Prince, you have nothing to fear.”
Yeah, I encourage Mrs. Gamer to ask other men to dance. I even tell her who to ask sometimes–usually someone who’s very confident.
Mrs. Gamer also appends “sir” when thanking me for a courtesy like holding the door open for her. “My Lord” seemed a bit old-fashioned. You think I’m kidding. [wry grin]
@SJF – Zen and the Art of Motorcyle Maintenance. Too bad the guy was kind of nutz…But Quality, yes, an important idea. Someone upthread mentioned the book The War of Art, it’s not a disimilar theme in some ways. @Sun – With respect, at the same time when you were lamenting this, there was a Meetup in your area, maybe 5 of them you could have been at, chock a block with people looking to meet other people. There were indoor soccer leagues, lonely guys at a climbing gym looking for a partner to climb with and a zillion other… Read more »
@ Culum
She was cool with being groped but wouldn’t kiss
Maybe she gave some guy a bj just before your date. Follow the strict escalation protocol minus kissing. If she resists after a couple of tries at any level, take her home early; don’t give yourself excuses to avoid being solo. Maintain your value and frame.
This shit worked back when I was doing active pickup and it hasn’t changed.
Post tech – didn’t talk to your neighbor because of tech.
Pre tech – didn’t talk to your neighbor because he was the wrong race or creed, you thought he hit on your wife, or boundary dispute.
There has always been isolation.
@scribblerg I didn’t say I’m allowing those facts to confine my actions. I look for ways to use technology to bring me physically closer to people where ever I can. As for tonight, I typed that post after returning from wing chun training. I’ve forced myself to go out since getting back home on Friday twice. Indeed, I wouldn’t notice all the ways technology is used to isolate us if I hadn’t watched others do it while I try to use it to the opposite effect. The irony to me is always that “social” has been the buzzword for about… Read more »
@Sun – I can’t sleep so I’m back at the computer. The point is what you focus on. Even if there is only 1% of the world is worth engaging with and working well socially, wouldn’t it make sense to focus on it? You are focused on what’s missing and what’s wrong. I only know this because I do the same thing, and probably in much more destructive ways in my life. I have to manage what I focus on, otherwise I get drawn to what’s missing, what’s broken, what isn’t working and become a sad miserable prick.
“What’s your action plan to deal with your insecurity?” Good question ASD. 1. Insisting the wife wear her 3″ heels more often. (she’s got 4.5″ on me with them on…sexy AF) 2. Increased sexual dominance (watching some james deen porn) 3. Been working with my bro in law (5’10” ish), my closest male friend (6′ ish) and another male friend (6’2″ ish) to get together more often. Trying to form my “gang” 4. Cognitive behavioral therapy (I was suicidal about a month ago) 5. Meditation 6. Lifting like my life depended on it 7. Application of game in my daily… Read more »
“@Caveclown
“Height insecurity is gonna be the death of me I swear.”
Don’t let it dude try this go out and do stand up and make fun of height. Do something to express your insecurities openly. Just don’t let anything get you around self relentless improvement.”
Could always be worse, I know.
I was born white, male, in the USA. Talk about winning the lottery in life.
I have an entitled victim mentality on the height thing for sure. Still, easier said than done changing it.
always happy to see your posts rugby, thanks man.
“Post tech – didn’t talk to your neighbor because of tech.
Pre tech – didn’t talk to your neighbor because he was the wrong race or creed, you thought he hit on your wife, or boundary dispute.
There has always been isolation.”
I can’t speak for extrovert folks, but I think for introverts, we are just more conscious of our isolation now because we can get online and talk to other introverts and see evidence of it. Thirty years ago we just wouldn’t have noticed as much.
My neighbor hates us for having sex too loudly with the bedroom window open…srs.
lol
@ Cave You might meditate on this: I was 5’4″ and 115 lbs. at 15 and I was dropping panties with very little game. See my post about my 15 y.o. autistic “game”. https://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2014/02/19/simple-autistic-game-to-get-women-interested/ I didn’t get girls laughing and there was no emotional roller coaster. I merely created a little comfort and isolated and escalated. You would have looked like a giant to me back then. Other boys were 6″-8″ taller and seeing less action. I was bold and that was it. Approach, get a girl to talk about herself, isolate, escalate. I wasn’t funny or clever–you have massive… Read more »
“So the whole ” I need no one ” fallacy is debunked.”
@Blaximus
True. I realize that I’ve been trying to draw blood from a stone on this particular subject. Moving on…
@ASDgamer “Once you get comfortable expressing emotions and subtle sexuality around women, you will develop a habit of doing those things nonverbally.” Two things. First, I don’t know much about this autism thing, nor do I feel I’m really interested in delving into it to change myself in that regard. I’m hard core INTJ. I never had any developmental issues. I developed an unemotional mindset after my development as a child, young adult and then adult. In serious matters like my life depends on it I can’t develop a slap and tickle mentality. When things aren’t on the line, I… Read more »
@Andy Moving on… What’s this about your “feelings” that are being slighted here in the comments section? I confess ignorance about what your feeling are. You may have stated them or may believe you have stated them in words at times but I have no clue what you really feel or how you can be served by the comments section. Do you want to hear something in particular that you are not hearing? Do you just want to be fed tips and tricks on how to get easier access to pussy? If you don’t have people playing the way you… Read more »
@SJF
I’m cool. I don’t have pussy access problems. I’m sure I could use your help down the road though.
Thanks. I feel better.
“I was 5’4″ and 115 lbs. at 15″ At age 15 I was 5’7″ (now I’m like 5’7.5” no shoes) and 240lbs, and a mullet! One! Tubby tubby! Two! Tubby tubby! Panties were not dropping to sat the least. But, I was damn good at warcraft, starcraft, and alpha centauri, lol. One good thing I got going for me is I don’t look “boyish” I crashed many college parties at age 16, everyone thought I was their age. No sex though. LOTS of guys my height have feminine faces and ectomorph frames. I’m more a mesomorph as I have wide… Read more »
Attitude isn’t the only thing, it’s everything. With a renewed sense of empowerment and a clear head, I’m charging at my life today. Funnily the business shit was merely a loss of perspective, all there is to do is the work. Quality work. Measure twice, cut once. Be great. Serve my clients, relax and know that after 30 years at it I’m great at it. Enjoy the work itself – tee, hee. It’s just so great to be able to work shit out on these pages. Fyi, Andy, I’m also pretty confused but then again you don’t need me or… Read more »
“I’m also pretty confused but then again you don’t need me or give a fuck.”
I was just expecting a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
@Andy – Looking for “completion” is a huge existential error.
@Cave,
“Facially I’ve been told a LOT that I look like Aarron Paul (Jesse pinkman on breaking bad)”
Awesome excuse for you to call girls a bitch.
“OMG you look like Aaron Paul!”
“Yeah… bitch.”
“OMG (tingles)”
I was going to make a longer post but I’m having a hard time remembering all the details. Had a fight with my wife yesterday in which I laughed at her several times, generally acted like a dick (and didn’t feel bad about doing it) and told her to shut up. She was cool after the fight but today she texts me a lot of bullshit about how it’s not fair and she doesn’t want the kids to see that example and how she only really feels comfortable communicating “disagreements” by way of text because she gets too upset when… Read more »
Not remembering fights is usually a sign of high emotions. You’ll remember more as you learn actual mastery of yourself in an argument with the wife. Not easy for sure.
After the fight shit tests. Yeah, been there. Kind of depends on what she is saying, but her goal is your compliance, not the safety of the kids. She didn’t like your attitude and seeks to “correct” it.
“Busy”
“Didn’t put arguing on the schedule today. Did you want to make an appointment?”
“This phone only accepts polite, kind texts…and tits”
Depends on what she’s saying man.
Dutchman,
You agreed with her, and then she piled it on more….see the pattern? See the test ?
Yeah. I knew I was fucking up. I just didn’t care at the time.
From here I will just act as though I never agreed to any of it, and that the conversation never took place.