Vulnerability

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One of the most endemic masculine pitfalls men have faced since the rise of feminine social primacy has been the belief that their ready displays of emotional vulnerability will make men more desirable mates for women.

In an era when men are raised from birth to be “in touch with their feminine sides”, and in touch with their emotions, we get generations of men trying to ‘out-emote’ each other as a mating strategy.

To the boys who grow into Beta men, the ready eagerness with which they’ll roll over and reveal their bellies to women comes from a conditioned belief that doing so will prove their emotional maturity and help them better identify with the women they mistakenly believe have a capacity to appreciate it.

What they don’t understand is that the voluntary exposing of ones most vulnerable elements isn’t the sign of strength that the Feminine Imperative has literally bred a belief of into these men.

A reflexive exposing of vulnerability is an act of submission, surrender and a capitulation to an evident superior. Dogs will roll over almost immediately when they acknowledge the superior status of another dog.

Vulnerability is not something to be brandished or proud of. While I do believe the insight and acknowledgement of your personal vulnerabilities is a necessary part of understanding oneself (particularly when it comes to unplugging oneself), it is not the source of attraction, and certainly not arousal, that most men believe it is for women.

From the comfort of the internet and polite company women will consider the ‘sounds-right’ appeal of male vulnerability with regard to what they’re supposed to be attracted to, but on an instinctual, subconscious level, women make a connection with the weakness that vulnerability represents.

A lot of men believe that trusting displays of vulnerability are mutually exclusive of displays of weakness, but what they ignore is that Hypergamy demands men that can shoulder the burden of performance. When a man openly broadcasts his vulnerableness he is, by definition, beginning from a position of weakness.

The problem with idealizing a position of strength is in thinking you’re already beginning from that strength and your magnanimous display of trusting vulnerability will be appreciated by a receptive woman. I strongly disagree with assertions like those of various Purple Pill ‘life coaches’ that open, upfront vulnerability is ever attractive to a woman.

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

Hypergamy Doesn’t Care About Male Vulnerability

When I wrote Women in Love and the followups, Men in Love and Of Love and War, I described men’s concept of love as ‘idealistic’.

Naturally, simple minds exaggerated this into “men just want an impossible unconditional love” or “they want love like they think their mothers loved them.” For what it’s worth, I don’t believe any rational man with some insight ever expects an unconditional love, but I think it’s important to consider that a large part of what constitutes his concept of an idealized love revolves around being loved irrespective of how he performs for, or merits that love.

From Of Love and War:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to.

The concept of men’s idealistic love, the love that makes him the true romantic, begins with a want of freedom from his burden of performance. It’s not founded in an absolute like unconditional love, but rather a love that isn’t dependent upon his performing well enough to assuage a woman’s Hypergamous concept of love.

Oh, the Humanity!

As the true romantics, and because of the performance demands of Hypergamy, there is a distinct want for men to believe that in so revealing their vulnerabilities they become more “human” – that if they expose their frailties to women some mask they believe they’re wearing comes off and (if she’s a mythical “quality woman“™) she’ll excuses his inadequacies to perform to the rigorous satisfaction of her Hypergamy.

The problems with this ‘strength in surrender’ hope are twofold.

First, the humanness he believes a woman will respect isn’t the attraction cue he believes it is. Ten minutes perusing blogs about the left-swiping habits of women using Tinder (or @Tinderfessions) is enough to verify that women aren’t desirous of the kind of “humanness” he’s been conditioned to believe women are receptive to.

In the attraction and arousal stages, women are far more concerned with a man’s capacity to entertain her by playing a role and presenting her with the perception of a male archetype she expects herself to be attracted to and aroused by. Hypergamy doesn’t care about how well you can express your humanness, and primarily because the humanness men believe they’re revealing in their vulnerability is itself a predesigned psychological construct of the Feminine Imperative.

Which brings us to the second problem with ‘strength in surrender’. The caricaturized preconception men have about their masculine identity is a construct of a man’s feminine-primary socialization.

The Masks the Feminine Imperative Makes Men Wear

To explain this second problem it’s important to grasp how men are expected to define their own masculine identities within a social order where the only correct definition of masculinity is prepared for men in a feminine-primary context.

What I mean by this is that the humanness that men wish to express in showing themselves as vulnerable is defined by feminine-primacy.

For the greater part of men’s upbringing and socialization they are taught that a conventional masculine identity is in fact a fundamentally male weakness that only women have a unique ‘cure’ for. It’s a widely accepted manosphere fact that over the past 60 or so years, conventional masculinity has become a point of ridicule, an anachronism, and every media form from then to now has made a concerted effort to parody and disqualify that masculinity. Men are portrayed as buffoons for attempting to accomplish female-specific roles, but also as “ridiculous men” for playing the conventional ‘macho’ role of masculinity. In both instances, the problems their inadequate maleness creates are only solved by the application of uniquely female talents and intuition.

Perhaps more damaging though is the effort the Feminine Imperative has made in convincing generations of men that masculinity and its expressions (of any kind) is an act, a front, not the real man behind the mask of masculinity that’s already been predetermined by his feminine-primary upbringing.

Women who lack any living experience of the male condition have the calculated temerity to define for men what they should consider manhood – from a feminine-primary context. This is why men’s preconception of vulnerability being a sign of strength is fundamentally flawed. Their concept of vulnerability stems from a feminine pretext.

Masculinity and vulnerability are defined by a female-correct concept of what should best serve the Feminine Imperative. That feminine defined masculinity (tough-guy ridiculousness) feeds the need for defining vulnerability as a strength – roll over, show your belly and capitulate to that feminine definition of masculinity – and the cycle perpetuates itself.

The Mask You Live In” by director Jennifer Siebel Newsom (dual surname noted) is the perfect example of this perpetuation. You have a woman deciding for a larger public in a documentary what the male experience is and then solving the problem (i.e. the tired trope of men needing to get more in touch with their emotions) for men.

Men are ridiculous posers. Men are socialized to wear masks to hide what the Feminine Imperative has decided is their true natures (they’re really girls wearing boy masks). Men’s problems extend from their inability to properly emote like women, and once they are raised better (by women and men who comply with the Feminine Imperative) they can cease being “tough” and get along better with women. That’s the real strength that comes from men’s feminized concept of vulnerability – compliance with the Feminine Imperative.

Ironically Newsom is still oblivious to the fact that she can only create such a documentary in an environment of feminine-primacy. No man could produce this and be taken seriously in our contemporary social climate.

It’s indictment of the definers of what masculinity ought to be that they still characterize modern masculinity (based on the ‘feels’) as being problematic when for generations our feminine-primary social order has conditioned men to associate that masculinity in as feminine-beneficial a context as women would want.

They still rely on an outdated formula which presumes the male experience is inferior, a sham, in comparison to the female experience, and then presumes to know what the male experience really is and offers feminine-primary solutions for it.

From The 16 Commandments of Poon:

IV. Don’t play by her rules

If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

True vulnerability is not a value-added selling point for a man when it comes to approaching and attracting women. As with all things, your vulnerability is best discovered by a woman through demonstration –never explaining those vulnerabilities to her with the intent of appearing more human as the feminine would define it.

Women want a bulwark against their own emotionalism, not a co-equal male emoter whose emotionalism would compete with her own. The belief that male vulnerability is a strength is a slippery slope from misguided attraction to emotional codependency, to overt dependency on a woman to accommodate and compensate for the weaknesses that vulnerability really implies.

I know a lot of guys think that displays vulnerability from a position of Alpha dominance, or strength can be endearing for a woman when you’re engaged in an LTR, but I’m saying that’s only the case when the rare instance of vulnerability is unintentionally revealed. Vulnerability is not a strength, and especially not when a man deliberately reveals it with the expectation of a woman appreciating it as a strength.

At some point in any LTR you will show your vulnerable side, and there’s nothing wrong with that. What’s wrong is the overt attempt to parlay that vulnerability into a strength or virtue that you expect that woman to appreciate, feel endearment over or reciprocate with displays of her own vulnerability for.

A chink in the armor is a weakness best kept from view of those who expect you to perform your best in all situations. If that chink is revealed in performing your best, then it may be considered a strength for having overcome it while performing to your best potential. It is never a strength when you expect it to be appreciated as such.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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rugby11ljh
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It practice i can see within myself how this works in my life,

Mr T.
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Rollo
You are a GIANT.
I just finished reading all your posts.

You have spoken the unspoken.
If women had the power to burn you on the cross, they would.
Keep on spreading the word.

darkwhores
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Add this to the list of failed sexual stratigies. Jesus, I’m ready to stop identifying with almost all the examples of ‘what not to do.’ Seems like most of the time the problems spin off from treating women like adults. And they likewise can be solved by treating them like children.
I had to run similar game when I was a substitute teacher in the public schools. Could’ve never imagined that wifes and girlfriends would require the same frame.

sfcton
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to keep the typical woman behaving you have to make sure she sees you as part of the out group. being vulnerable ( word makes me want to puke) makes you part of her in group which means you are a safe target for her bullshit games.

sfcton
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lol dw women are children. why do think feminism is such a failure? it relies on women being adults. Ancient wisdom the world over knew women are kids and held them in check… or died out.

jf12
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Here is meat. “Vulnerability is not a strength, and especially not when a man deliberately reveals it with the expectation of a woman appreciating it as a strength.”

jf12
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“Hypergamy doesn’t care about how well you can express your humanness”

It is of dire importance that men keep this fact in mind: when women say they want to be treated as humans, that is a shit test designed to see if you will act like a girl for their amusement.

Hobbes
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Rollo, in all seriousness, one of your most important and straight to the point posts. But I have one quibble: “As with all things, your vulnerability is best discovered by a woman through demonstration…..” Not even this is acceptable. I learned this the hard way. As I mentioned here before, there was a 18 month period in which I lost two best friends, and several family members.. I held it together for the most part, but one final straw was a patient I had been caring for, and old gentlemen who was supposed to die soon after I started treating… Read more »

jf12
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@scfton re: “being vulnerable … makes you part of her in group” Correct. Women wield vulnerability as their primary tool with which to construct *female*-to-female intimacy. It’s amazing, if you’ve ever been “one of the girls”, to hear how strange women bond. To become instant friends, women who’ve just met will discuss, in no particular order: 1. Their diseases and gross side effects 2. Their boyfriends’ sexual pecularities 3. The secret code to the safe holding the day cash at their workplace I’ve come to the conclusion that women’s revealing of vulnerabilities *is* a demostration of strength, to them, i.e.… Read more »

jf12
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I’ll say it as straight as I can.

Mutual vulnerability is indeed the royal highway to intimacy. You’ll become closer than ever before. You’ll become like sisters, and share pink panties.

Rick Bronswick
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I am rereading nmmng for the 4th time. There’s something very settling/soothing about it. It gets me/my frame back on track. This is especially important now, since i’ve been floundering lately~ I don’t know who i am anymore. Scary feeling.

Sent from my iPhone

>

DeNihilist
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I think that if you look at most of the blockbusters from Hollywood, excepting Cameron’s bullshit film, most are based on male machismo. A lot of women follow these hero’s through” whatever” two, again, etc.

The males in attendance dream of being as machismo as these characters, the women lust for them.

Need anymore proof that vulnerability is for pussy’s?

stuttie
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* I posted this in ‘Intimacy’ but they touch on Vulnerability, so thought I would post here as well *

Scary that this is what blue pill counsellors at a Mens Helpline service advocate about men and intimacy.

http://www.mensline.org.au/improving-relationships/men-and-intimacy

Eric
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I wish I’d read this when I was 15.

Tinder Master
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“First, the humanness he believes a woman will respect isn’t the attraction cue he believes it is. Ten minutes perusing blogs about the left-swiping habits of women using Tinder (or @Tinderfessions) is enough to verify that women aren’t desirous of the kind of “humanness” he’s been conditioned to believe women are receptive to.”

heh, i’ll just drop this here:

http://img4.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/20257/202574540a693a9a90d27d70d83ad82c1ad5c5af.jpg

Ang Aamer
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Just a thought on the Newsom article: “Ironically Newsom is still oblivious to the fact that she can only create such a documentary in an environment of feminine-primacy. No man could produce this and be taken seriously in our contemporary social climate.” One thing to remember about most female advice to men… it’s not really FOR MEN. It’s actually geared for the SINGLE MOTHERS of young men/boys who need to be “taught” properly. These mothers could not “fix” ex-dad but they will try their darndest to change junior. If I reword and elaborate you can see the tone: Newsom quote… Read more »

M Simon
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The first mate and I were discussing “women are incapable of loving” today. She said “I like love”. And I said, “Of course you do, but you are incapable of loving.” I pointed out to her that she couldn’t bond with me until she started saying, “I like seeing you with other women. It makes me hot for you.” – Yeah I’m Red Pilling her. – And she acknowledged that. She then went on to ascribe that to a difficult childhood. I said, “No. I go to certain men’s sites (heh) and all women are like that. I said the… Read more »

M Simon
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Eric
November 24th, 2014 at 1:11 am

I wish I’d read this when I was 15.

I had the very good fortune to be introduced to the rudiments of Game by my first GF at age 18. Back in ’62. I was VERY lucky. The girl was very bright and knew what actually attracted her. A UChicago girl.

Yhufir
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This is something I’ve been trying to articulate for a while and I think you summed it up nicely. Feminism has long told men that they are flawed. From the feminist perspective, it is men which are the problem and their concept of how men should be is a given. It has an allure because of the humanist element involved: Treating everyone equally; recognizing each other’s humanity; removing one class of people from the “top” of the pyramid. But there’s not much evidence to support their concept of Men™. And there’s no place in feminism for men to define masculinity… Read more »

M Simon
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jf12 November 24th, 2014 at 12:07 am The first mate used to have one of those kinds of friends. And every interaction with this “friend” depressed her. Since I have been Red Pilling her this “friend” has much less attraction to her. She has found that she prefers feeling good and attraction to me to being depressed. The husband of this “friend” is a very funny kind of beta. He totally controls her and at the same time lets her get away with a lifetime of this crap. He tried bonding with me by giving me the “you are so… Read more »

walawala
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walawala
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Is Vulnerability the male equivalent of “Attention whoring”?

M Simon
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Hobbes
November 24th, 2014 at 12:03 am

Have you studied the body’s endocannabinoid system? May I suggest a video by Dr. Donald Abrams.

It is probably too technical for the average layperson but I think you’d be right at home with it.

Is This Thing On?
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walawala, I believe attention whoring is at least a semi conceous act. Vulnerability has been beaten into many a young mans head by their mothers for 60 years now. It is a demon that must be exorcised from the male psyche.

Matt
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Rollo, what if this vulnerability is not just a mate differentiation strategy, but a real need. Don’t you wish you could truly be vulnerable with your wife every now and then? In other words, it’s more than simply trying to game your wife as a strategy akin to being a “nice guy”. As long as you’re “performing”, isn’t vulnerability ok? The real problem seems to be that when we need to be vulnerable the most, it is the same time when our performance is suffering the greatest – and hence, the hypergamy shit storm begins.

cynical observer
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For the life of me I can not understand how you guys discuss this sort of thing all the time and still manage to harbor interest in women. Despite being a heterosexual with a very high sex drive, red-pill has completely killed off my desire for sex and relationships. http://www.heretical.com/costello/13gleftb.html “Soldier Jilted An American girl who had been going steady with a soldier posted overseas in 1943 jilted him after receiving a letter from him telling of the emotional strain of life at the front: “He was sent to Italy where the fighting was very intense for a long time,… Read more »

infowarrior1
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@Matt

”The real problem seems to be that when we need to be vulnerable the most, it is the same time when our performance is suffering the greatest – and hence, the hypergamy shit storm begins.”

Expect support from your mates,your male friends in life,that’s what fraternities and other all-male clubs are for, share your vulnerabilities with them(Their abolition significantly reduced the capacity of men to thrive). Women are dessert, not the main course.

theasdgamer
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@ jf12 I’ve come to the conclusion that women’s revealing of vulnerabilities *is* a demostration of strength” It’s a demonstration of femininity. Remember Stalin’s rule: Keep probing with the bayonet until you meet iron. Mutual vulnerability is indeed the royal highway to intimacy. You’ll become closer than ever before. You’ll become like sisters, and share pink panties. I love your wordplay. BFF, lol. Let’s sneak into the Secret Garden of Pink Panties to spy. Women are so amusing, the little dears. Seriously, vulnerability is beta, though if you’re alpha enough and calibrate well, vulnerability can be used as push-pull. Uh,… Read more »

Softek
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I was extremely vulnerable with one woman and never got anything but support and respect. She never treated me like a girl or anything even close to that. Bawled my eyes out in front of her at least once. For the 5+ years we talked and she occasionally visited she supported me through everything I complained about, including all the issues I had growing up as a kid with my parents, and everything else. But inter-mixed with that was unintentional Game. The reason? Her being morbidly obese and 8 years older than me. And ultimately that is the reason I… Read more »

New Yorker
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This is an A++ post. Reread it a few times and the analysis is spot-on. Rollo is simply on a different level than anyone else.

lumberjack
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Great post I couldn’t agree more. Currently red pill aware for about 2 years now. I think another thing that leads to vulnerability is the social conditioning through pop culture placed on growing teens and young adults. You might even call it brainwashing for younger kids who have no concept of game. Every other song promoted by pop culture is about how buying roses and standing in rain pouring out your unconditional love is what wins a woman’s heart. Bruno mars for example I cant stand his songs. Men are taught that they are to qualify themselves to women and… Read more »

Zul
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My young nieces of 15 (twins) saw me break down when I discover my mother’s Alzheimers disease was moving fast on her. The expression on their young faces were one of disgust and contempt. My own mother when my stepfather had a very painful operation and cried because of the pain, she too showed the same reaction to him. I witnessed that. My ex wife wrote a relatioshit book and in it she adviced men to be free to express vulnerability to their wives. I corrected her but she refused to believe me. I shared my experiences with her and… Read more »

jf12
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@Softek re: “Was the tremendous gap in SMV responsible for a lot of our relationship dynamics?”

Indubitably. She was exhibiting the correct behavior, the desired behavior, because that was all she had to offer. The lesson here, going forward, is that women DO know how to act right so EVERY time they aren’t acting right it is because of their being deliberately malicious, NOT ignorant, by refusing to do what they know you want. EVERY time.

Thoroughbred
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@Infowarrior… “Expect support from your mates,your male friends in life,that’s what fraternities and other all-male clubs are for, share your vulnerabilities with them (Their abolition significantly reduced the capacity of men to thrive).” Exactly this. If you ever feel the need to express vulnerability (and even tears), express it with men only (close male friends, your father) — never women, because only men have the capability to even understand it. When I’m feeling vulnerable these days, the very first call I make is to my father — regrettably a man who my mother spent years successfully destroying my relationship with.… Read more »

alex
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women who look for changing the notion of masculinity aren’t really concerned if said men will become less attractive to the opposite sex. I see those efforts of feminizing men as a pre-emptive attempt to weed out the indesirable crowd of betas.

sfcton
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Why do we need to be vulnerable?

jf12
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@sfcton, we all need somebody to lean on, sometimes. I feel a definite need to expose my vulnerabilities, it feels good. It’s not merely emotional “indecent exposure”, it’s hoping my boo-boos get kissed.

Badpainter on Fake Vulnerability Game, from the Intimacy article: “Sadly this actually works. This leaves me torn being satisfied with my cleverness, and vaguely disappointed that it actually works.” Ginning up the feeling of intimacy can satisfy the longing a bit.

myrealitie
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I have been enjoying this series of posts (on intimacy, vulnerability, etc). Would it be less “bitter” for men to swallow if they reframe this whole thing as good leadership? Does a general tell his troops “You know, I’m feeling really nervous about getting all of you over those mountains in the winter. But if we go around the mountains we’ll surely be attacked head on and most of you will die. I don’t know, I’m feeling kind of lost. What do you think?” Does a CEO of a company tell his employees: “I am so worried that we’ll miss… Read more »

Sisyphean
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No, that’s the problem: It’s Not fucked up at all, it’s absolutely what you want! In a real feminine woman a man showing weakness is a scary thing thing. It’s natural for the feminine woman to want to distance herself from men who are weak, who won’t be able to protect her or her children. Think about it this way, what if she had stayed… what if she had not just tolerated your display of weakness but loved it and instead of leaving, she started asserting dominance over you in the relationship? Would it have been worth it? Would you… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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Think of the first Rocky movies. At the end, he is usually getting his ass handed to him in the ring. He’s got his coach in the corner though, telling him he can do it. It enables him to dig deep and end up winning. Isn’t that what we really want for our women? There is no question the coach would have been knocked out in the first round. He simply doesn’t have what it takes to win the fight. His value is in his encouragement. It helps knowing you have someone in your corner who isn’t going to think… Read more »

Ang
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This post reminded me of a news show. I think it was prime time. It was a show about the battle for Robert’s Ridge in Afghanistan. They showed a predator feed of the battle to the ranger commander and his wife. It wa surreal. This hero calmly points out RPGs and Taliban. The wife forced them to stop showing it. The show edited her freak out but it was obvious she didn’t like hubby hero explaining the battle. Now I get what was going on she didn’t want to have him share. She wanted to be kept in the dark… Read more »

kateandluca
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@Is This Thing On – I do think you can get that from a woman, but it would have to be a woman very in love. So, in effect, you’d have not to *need* it from her. You’d have to already be demonstrating, unequivocally, that you are on the case and are fully intending to push through said obstacle. I think a really important distinction needs to be drawn between showing weakness and neediness and being in a circumstance where you are getting your ass kicked. It’s not advisable to be in a situation where you are getting your ass… Read more »

myrealitie
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And, if it makes you feel any better, women also want to be loved, desired, and adored for their souls even if they get fat and sloppy. Adults don’t get unconditional love, c’est la vie.

Keeping It Rational
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Rollo, your posts are great but I feel that you often take things a step too far, towards some conspiratorial/Machiavellian concept of the “Feminine Imperative”. I see you as someone who has a good handle on exposing facts, but when you cross the line into subjective editorializing it gets attention at the expense of objective truth. I think there is benefit in looking at men and women and their behavior from a sociobiological perspective. Humans ultimately want (roughly) the same things, they just go about getting them in different ways. Strategies may be more or less effective, but are any… Read more »

jf12
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re: “there is no deliberate attempt to harm”

The harmed men say they feel harmed.

myrealitie
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@jf12 – someone is giving you the answers to the test so that you can pass and you are arguing with the answers.

You are correct on one thing: women do not care what you need from them when they are disgusted with your demonstrative weakness. You have the remedy available to you yet you refuse to apply it.

No matter what the topic, some people really just won’t get out of their own way…

Matatan
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Same as with intimacy, the request for more vulnerability is just another shit test. If you fail it there will be a price to pay. The more and the graver you fail it, the higher that price will be. Talking from experience here. Never show a woman weakness. If you need to cry, do it in private. If you feel depressed, hit the gym as hard as you can.

BuenaVista
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1. The cult of vulnerability, in my view, is just one more avenue women use to test and compete with men. As an adult I’ve cried twice; the two women who observed these episodes were contemptuous, sure, but oddly triumphant. They both took the attitude that the tears proved *defeat*, that some long-running contest had just ended and … SCOREBOARD! I have puzzled over this competitive response — not merely a contemptuous response — for years. They appeared to be saying “I win!” It’s not a conscious winning, but it is a moment, I think, when a woman says “Now… Read more »

jf12
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@stuttie, re: “Improving relationships” link

Notice how the entire content is dismissive of the man’s needs, and the only advice is for the man to adopt the woman’s agenda in toto. In particular, the man is urged to better appreciate “intimacy without sex”, and to cease expressing his need for sex after the honeymoon period, because the woman cannot be expected to care about him and it makes her sad to be constantly reminded of her selfishness.

BuenaVista
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Tinder Master, 150 pp of that stuff, if you could just figure out how to spoof the little hotties’ appearances, and you’ve got a book and a movie deal.

Question, are any of these chicks actually good at sex? What percentage?

I’m older so the women I see (I’m convinced) think the same way, but have to cloak the freaky in layers of convention and deniability.

Glenn
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Another great post, thanks Rollo. First, I can confirm that women of all stripes – friends, sisters, daughters, lovers and even strangers on the fucking street – will not treat a man who is vulnerable well. As I’ve described here for a while, I watched my SMV go up and down throughout my life, but when I was struck by illness and financial/career trouble in 2007-8 onward, I could not believe how it played out. I put on weight, I became less fit, I lost my sweet East Village apartment and my six figure job. I lost my confidence and… Read more »

New Yorker
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An innately masculine man does not feel a need to feel or show weakness. He only thinks about how to move forward. With that said, it is important to be realistic in every situation. But, only from a position of fearlessness and strength. Forgetting the woman’s presence, a man is much happier when he feels that way. There is no shit test that can trouble you when all you care about is being your most dominant, authentic self.

jf12
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@myrealitie re: “You have the remedy available to you”

What was that remedy? The problem is that women do not respond properly to being treated well by men, to being treated as a “human”, to being treated as a comrade or fellow-traveller, to being treated as compassionate.

myrealitie
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@Glenn – I agree 100% with “Now I’m back on my feet and their appreciation and respect is returning. But it means so much less to me, and the funny thing is, I think the women who did this to me know it. It’s part of “getting it” that we don’t talk about. Realizing that female attention just isn’t that valuable is part of what getting it is really all about.” I also agree with the political/economic commentary. @jf12 – the remedy is to stop thinking that the “proper” way for a woman to behave is different from the way… Read more »

Aaron
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The turn-off with displaying vulnerability is that when women empathize, many believe they can handle the situation better than you, e.g., that they are stronger, more alpha than you. And when they can’t understand the nature of your vulnerability, then they believe you are atypical and that a stronger man would not have such a problem.

jf12
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In the Bible, Job’s wife added greatly to his afflictions by mocking his lamentations and urging him to die. Job’s male friends come and mourn with him in sympathy for many long days, but their somewhat tepid comfort is tempered by their assumption that Job had done something wrong. This fairly minor and understandable error of theirs is roundly condemned by God and errabody, because guys oughta have a heart.

But nobody expects anything better out of Job’s wife, because she’s female.

Aaron
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A common meme is that feminism is one big shit test. When women tell men to display vulnerability, it’s just another shit test. Women aren’t even consciously aware of their shit testing. They don’t know why or how they do it. They just know they have to fitness test the men in their lives.

Dealing with women is truly a “game.” If you don’t know the masculine rules (Red Pill), you’re going to end up a weak beta bitch.

LiveFearless
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Extraordinary post.

“Women want a bulwark against their own emotionalism, not a co-equal male emoter whose emotionalism would compete with her own.”

Women want a bulwark against their own emotionalism, not a co-equal male emoter whose emotionalism would compete with her own.

https://twitter.com/PlayDangerously/status/535029968682508288

Fred Flange, a/k/a Capt. Obvious
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Fred Flange, a/k/a Capt. Obvious
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Been to both of these extremes. Like Hobbes I made the mistake of showing too much emotion when a family member died suddenly; after that the woman I was seeing didn’t want to even know who I was. To be fair, it was early on, and I could see where that would be a turnoff to someone who didn’t know me that well yet. Indeed it isn’t just women who blanch at displays of male vulnerability. NO ONE wants to see someone meltdown or have a breakdown, especially a man, anytime anywhere. Everyone – male or female – gets antsy… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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The thing about the red pill is it instantly makes you more alpha. I’m not saying it turns a complete simp into “The Alpha” overnight, but it makes a man in what ever his current state instantly more alpha than he was. The point being, all men are naturally more alpha than they end up because of the immense weight of social conditioning. As I raise my son, I want to pass all this information on to him so he has less or possibly nothing to unwind when he grows older. Any thoughts on age appropriateness when it comes to… Read more »

Is This Thing On?
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I must say, the examples of men grieving the loss of a loved one is kind of where I draw the line. If a women’s hypergamy is so strong that she can’t even let a man grieve, it is simply better to next that woman. If that means nexting all women, then call me a MGTOW.

heyjay
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@ cynical observer:
I wonder about the same thing. After reading a lot of RP stuff I finally began to understand the true nature of women and it wasn’t pretty. I flipped and got very angry and indifferent to them, because maybe I felt they should be more (human, i.e. rational) than they apparently are.
However this disappointment killed the desire for them and it hasn’t come back until now.

Jakeithus
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This was a great post, filled with lots of wisdom that I wish I had learned at a younger age. The right place for men to show vulnerability is with other men in a situation of mutual respect, who can understand what you’re going through. Unfortunately, society has done a good job at killing these types of relationships and removing the situations where these types of relationship would historically have been formed. If I could do one thing to help the situation of men in our society, it would be to mandate more male-only interaction, free from the influence of… Read more »

jf12
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re: “the remedy is to stop thinking”

Yeah, well, thinking’s kinda my gig. Besides which, pretending that “ought” is worse than “is” is on the wrong side of that fallacy.

jf12
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What is it that women think they are *for*? If you are a woman, why would a man choose to be with you, to communicate with you, to have a relationship with you, instead of some guy? What of you is valuable for him?

(hint: I’m asking this in the context of his vulnerability/intimacy)

SelfAbsorbingJunior
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I look at being vulnerable as a screening process for which woman are potential long term partners. As you say, in gaining attraction/arousal they are futile attempts. But, it is important to show small displays of vulnerability and see how your woman reacts. If the alpha frame/dominance is already in place then the outcome will be favorable and they should be used in small doses to keep a strong relationship. Any healthy woman will act out in bad ways in the long run if you show no signs of vulnerability.

jf12
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Presumably the most useful part of Fake Vulnerability Game is in the rope-a-dope sense, whereby the woman will wear herself out trying to exploit your fake vulnerability. “Please, let’s not bring up my large N in public anymore. It makes me embarassed that other women will think I used to be a player.”

Tinder Master
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@BuenaVista “Tinder Master, 150 pp of that stuff, if you could just figure out how to spoof the little hotties’ appearances, and you’ve got a book and a movie deal.” LOL, that is a good idea but it isn’t me in the picture. I got that off the bodybuilding forums after it was making rounds there. But in my experience, the responses are the same for me. Just have a look at something recent some girl sent me: http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/20260/2026044154948b9e5f68222043a158b7257ab06f.jpg “Question, are any of these chicks actually good at sex? What percentage?” Well, how good the sex comes out to be… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Junior needs to grow up

Any healthy woman will act out in bad ways in the long run if you show no signs of vulnerability.

Umm, no, better to hide it unless it’s in a game context (even marital game). There’s a reason that men have an urge to cry privately. Other than at my mother’s funeral when I shed a few tears, my wife never saw me cry. I’m covered by an iron frame, so I can indulge a few tears.

theasdgamer
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@ Tinder I can see Tinder if you have great pics (kissable face, lickable body). If you need Game to get you past appearance, Tinder is a no go. I met a very effeminate guy who dances and he is hetero and gets women at dance venues all the time. If you have a little strength, you can dip women and they feel your strength, tingles follow, etc. Then do the lean where your arm is across their body under a boob and your hand on their tummy with them leaning and you supporting their weight. Hands all over them,… Read more »

Sisyphean
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Previous comment was in response to Hobbes.

Crazylittle
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Yep, as a woman I can attest that this is spot on. Ive actually had two men I went out on a few dates with tell me that they cried at sad commercials. It instantly killed my potentiol for attraction. I always wondered if that was true or if they were just saying it bc they thought it made them sound sensitive and that’s what i wanted to hear. I’m so glad I had a true, strong father figure who showed me what a man should be, but it’s getting harder and harder to find men that embrace traditional concepts… Read more »

The Lone Planet
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Basically, women want men to be robots.

Crazylittle
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No, we want men to be strong.

sfcton
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Ang, my own life plays out just like that. They don’t want to know…. though I am not 100% certain why. If women wanted what they say the wanted in men I’d never get laid. The loss of your loved one is likely a loss for her too. You have to keep your frame. I heard nothing but positive feed back from the women in my family when my little brother died. No tears etc, just took care of bidness in the most calming manner I have. Thats what women want. They are tossed around enough by their worries, fears… Read more »

Hobbes
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Peter Gabriel is a great source of music from a mans persepctive- not red pill per se, but he gets at what men dream of when they idealize women and love. Listen to this song, and make not of the womans part.. it’s a distilled essence of the support men dream women were capable of . Note too his part- never giving up.. all the while expressing vulnerability..
Brilliant song
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No1UKN-SKlg&w=420&h=315%5D

Hobbes
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@crazylittle- the problem with women wanting “traditional” men is that you aren’t worth the bother or the cost. If you are not a traditional woman- chaste until marriage, stay at home mother, and a good concubine who makes her man the number one priority in life, then sorry, its basically pump and dump with you.
You can’t demand top dollar for used goods. That is basically the core of the problem today.

theasdgamer
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@ crazylittle The thing is, although you talk about Feminism brainwashing society, all of my girlfriends openly acknowledge and know that we want strong, traditional males. It’s the guys that aren’t embracing these roles and concepts, not the women.</I Yeah, cuz it's all about you wymenz cuz you're such speshul snowflakes. The brainwashing is aimed at you wymenz. Not. It couldn't be that feminists are brainwashing men, could it? Women know the score–it's the men who are being brainwashed and told that they need to be better women. Again with the pedestalization of women. Solipsism on steroids. Loading...

myrealitie
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Lack of chastity may be the problem, Hobbes, but not for the reason you’re stating. It’s not that men insist on committing to “traditional” women. Men with options don’t have to commit to anyone in today’s environment (sex readily available), and they often do not. Men that are not attractive to women for any number of reasons can’t hold onto women in a culture where it’s possible to divorce without shame. Please don’t pretend that the 2nd group of men isn’t willing to commit to slutty and/or career oriented women, it’s just not true. The root of the problem is… Read more »

S2H
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Wow. More than once I can see myself doing everything mentioned and showing a position of vulnerability in my pre red pill past. Thank you for the post.

jf12
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Hobbes smacks down Crazylittle … hopefully to her liking … “you aren’t worth the bother or the cost”

I’m still not seeing ANY attempt answer to my question: What do women think they are *for*?

Hobbes
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@myrealitie- I think you have me mistaken.. I am neither bitter or lacking for female attention. I am merely pointing out the reality- women are not worth playing the traditional role of provider for. Whether you are a beta or a alpha male, marrying and playing the traditional role today is hardly worth it, unless you get married young. Women are asking for “traditional” men are full of shit. It’s a shaming tactic used to manipulate men into playing a role that benefits women. Full stop. Thats it. And I understand her need to do so.. but that doesn’t mean… Read more »

Crazylittle
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LOL. Nobody was “smacked down”. This article is about men mistakenly thinking vulnerability is an attractive trait to women, and I simply agreed with it. This article is also educating men about what women DO find attractive (strength). So, why are you reading it and/or why does the topic concern you, if you “don’t care” about what women want?

myrealitie
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@Hobbes – where are you getting this idea that it is not worth it for them? I think it is based on a misguided assumption that chaste women are more loyal and less willing to cheat/leave. That is just not true. Young women (many of which are virgins or quite inexperienced before marriage) leave marriages at higher rates than older women because they have… wait for it… more opportunities! The bottom line is that it’s not worth getting married and being a “traditional” man if you aren’t confidant you can be a good leader and keep a house and a… Read more »

Hobbes
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@myrealitie- I see you only look at what feminism has done to men, but you fail to mention what it has done to women is much more relevant to this topic. It has rendered women not worth providing for. Again, you provide a long long list of things men “should” do, and how if they don’t do it its because they lack somehow.. Not a word as to what women are supposed to bring to the table, whats required of them in return, and what qualities they “should” develop to make themselves worth the investment. Are you a woman? Not… Read more »

Crazylittle
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What women need to do isn’t the topic of this article.

Atticus
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Below is part of a Thank You email I sent to Rollo a while back: “I think for myself, do what want, and say what’s on my mind. Not that I’m a prick, I’m a good guy and most people love me. That was the way my Dad raised me. From the time I was fourteen, I knew what I wanted to do. We had a small family business that I was going to build into a big family business. And I did. When I became CEO at 26, there were 40 competitors in our market; now there are 3.… Read more »

Hobbes
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@crazylittle- And I am just educating you as to why those men who are more than capable of being those type of men choose to pump and dump you. Simple really.

We don’t read here to learn how to give women what they want, we come here to learn the truths about female/male nature and to use that information to improve our lives and inform our lifes decisions.. whether that benefits women in the slightest is, I guarantee you, of little concern.

While women may be part of the subject matter here- it is not about you.

Hobbes
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@crazylittle
“What women need to do isn’t the topic of this article.”

Of course, and so when talking about this article we should pretend the entire world outside of the article doesn’t exist. lol… fucking female logic, right there

Crazylittle
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You aren’t educating me on anything of the sort. I didn’t come here seeking your advice, nor do I get “pumped and dumped”. But thanks for presuming you know anything about me. I also find the info on male/female relations given here quite interesting and beneficial in terms of understanding human nature. I don’t know or care why you read this stuff, but the slant of the article DOES involve what women want and find attractive, whether you like it and/or care about it or not.

jf12
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@Crazylittle, re: “what this article is about” It is an interesting fact that the best way to avoid simplying complex topics by making them dearily fuzzy is to enhance the contrast, to what seems to be cartoonish degrees. When talkingabout men’s relationships w ith women, no matter how crude and crayon and fauvish the outlines, it is never outlandish enough for my tastes. In this particular case it is way too fuzzy to say men think vulnerability is attractive. What is more true is that men have it force-fed to them all their lives, almost entirely by women, since we… Read more »

myrealitie
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Yes, I am a woman. The list of things i mentioned men “should” do are for their own benefit. I made a point of trying to illustrate that. I am not giving men a prescription of actions only so that I can benefit and they can suffer. I think we need to clear something up in order to proceed with this conversation: What Crazylittle and I are agreeing we’d love to see men do is not about providing. No one but you said anything about providing. Neither her nor I was asking for a world of men to take care… Read more »

JQ
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This article leaves me thinking about the concept of vulnerability. After reading Models by Mark Manson I have not read a critique on that concept.

jf12
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@Atticus re: “Mine missed that chapter of the life mate’s manual.”

They all did. The big big lesson here is that AWALT. Which is the opposite of a comforting thought.

jf12
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@myrealitie re: “And a woman who feels great isn’t going anywhere”

Fact: women’s feelings change all the time, and are not linked to objective reality. Hence, a woman “feeling great” has zero (nay, negative) predictive value. Concede that, and we can proceed further.

Glenn
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@ Crazylittle – Aren’t you cute? Newsflash – over 80% of divorces where there are young children involved are initiated by the wife, not the man. So, first off, understand the nature of the complaint. It’s first and foremost that women are trying to have their cake while they are eating it, and they are utterly destroying the traditional family and many men’s lives along the way. Fyi, I realize that male suffering doesn’t mean that much to even cool women, but still, it’s something I notice and care about immensely. But even worse, your sisters have conned many men… Read more »

jf12
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re: “They are available… IF you know how to get and keep a woman interested.”

Be a bad boy. Be an emotional robot. Be strong without any weaknesses. Be completely immune to heartache and completely dismiss everything a woman ever says or does.

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