Vulnerability

achilles_heel-1

One of the most endemic masculine pitfalls men have faced since the rise of feminine social primacy has been the belief that their ready displays of emotional vulnerability will make men more desirable mates for women.

In an era when men are raised from birth to be “in touch with their feminine sides”, and in touch with their emotions, we get generations of men trying to ‘out-emote’ each other as a mating strategy.

To the boys who grow into Beta men, the ready eagerness with which they’ll roll over and reveal their bellies to women comes from a conditioned belief that doing so will prove their emotional maturity and help them better identify with the women they mistakenly believe have a capacity to appreciate it.

What they don’t understand is that the voluntary exposing of ones most vulnerable elements isn’t the sign of strength that the Feminine Imperative has literally bred a belief of into these men.

A reflexive exposing of vulnerability is an act of submission, surrender and a capitulation to an evident superior. Dogs will roll over almost immediately when they acknowledge the superior status of another dog.

Vulnerability is not something to be brandished or proud of. While I do believe the insight and acknowledgement of your personal vulnerabilities is a necessary part of understanding oneself (particularly when it comes to unplugging oneself), it is not the source of attraction, and certainly not arousal, that most men believe it is for women.

From the comfort of the internet and polite company women will consider the ‘sounds-right’ appeal of male vulnerability with regard to what they’re supposed to be attracted to, but on an instinctual, subconscious level, women make a connection with the weakness that vulnerability represents.

A lot of men believe that trusting displays of vulnerability are mutually exclusive of displays of weakness, but what they ignore is that Hypergamy demands men that can shoulder the burden of performance. When a man openly broadcasts his vulnerableness he is, by definition, beginning from a position of weakness.

The problem with idealizing a position of strength is in thinking you’re already beginning from that strength and your magnanimous display of trusting vulnerability will be appreciated by a receptive woman. I strongly disagree with assertions like those of various Purple Pill ‘life coaches’ that open, upfront vulnerability is ever attractive to a woman.

The idea goes that if a man is truly outcome-independent with his being rejected by a woman, the first indicator of that independence is a freedom to be vulnerable with her. The approach then becomes one of “hey, I’m just gonna be my vulnerable self and if you’re not into me then I’m cool with that.”

The hope is that a woman will receive this approach as intended and find something refreshing about it, but the sad truth is that if this were the attraction key its promoters wish it was, every guy ‘just being himself‘ would be swimming in top shelf pussy. This is a central element to Beta Game – the hope that a man’s openness will set him apart from ‘other guys’ – it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.

The fact is that there is no such thing as outcome independence. The very act of your approaching a woman means you have made some effort to arrive at a favorable outcome with her. The fact that you’d believe a woman would even find your vulnerability attractive voids any pretense of outcome independence.

Hypergamy Doesn’t Care About Male Vulnerability

When I wrote Women in Love and the followups, Men in Love and Of Love and War, I described men’s concept of love as ‘idealistic’.

Naturally, simple minds exaggerated this into “men just want an impossible unconditional love” or “they want love like they think their mothers loved them.” For what it’s worth, I don’t believe any rational man with some insight ever expects an unconditional love, but I think it’s important to consider that a large part of what constitutes his concept of an idealized love revolves around being loved irrespective of how he performs for, or merits that love.

From Of Love and War:

We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.

We want to, so badly.

If we do, we soon are no longer able to.

The concept of men’s idealistic love, the love that makes him the true romantic, begins with a want of freedom from his burden of performance. It’s not founded in an absolute like unconditional love, but rather a love that isn’t dependent upon his performing well enough to assuage a woman’s Hypergamous concept of love.

Oh, the Humanity!

As the true romantics, and because of the performance demands of Hypergamy, there is a distinct want for men to believe that in so revealing their vulnerabilities they become more “human” – that if they expose their frailties to women some mask they believe they’re wearing comes off and (if she’s a mythical “quality woman“™) she’ll excuses his inadequacies to perform to the rigorous satisfaction of her Hypergamy.

The problems with this ‘strength in surrender’ hope are twofold.

First, the humanness he believes a woman will respect isn’t the attraction cue he believes it is. Ten minutes perusing blogs about the left-swiping habits of women using Tinder (or @Tinderfessions) is enough to verify that women aren’t desirous of the kind of “humanness” he’s been conditioned to believe women are receptive to.

In the attraction and arousal stages, women are far more concerned with a man’s capacity to entertain her by playing a role and presenting her with the perception of a male archetype she expects herself to be attracted to and aroused by. Hypergamy doesn’t care about how well you can express your humanness, and primarily because the humanness men believe they’re revealing in their vulnerability is itself a predesigned psychological construct of the Feminine Imperative.

Which brings us to the second problem with ‘strength in surrender’. The caricaturized preconception men have about their masculine identity is a construct of a man’s feminine-primary socialization.

The Masks the Feminine Imperative Makes Men Wear

To explain this second problem it’s important to grasp how men are expected to define their own masculine identities within a social order where the only correct definition of masculinity is prepared for men in a feminine-primary context.

What I mean by this is that the humanness that men wish to express in showing themselves as vulnerable is defined by feminine-primacy.

For the greater part of men’s upbringing and socialization they are taught that a conventional masculine identity is in fact a fundamentally male weakness that only women have a unique ‘cure’ for. It’s a widely accepted manosphere fact that over the past 60 or so years, conventional masculinity has become a point of ridicule, an anachronism, and every media form from then to now has made a concerted effort to parody and disqualify that masculinity. Men are portrayed as buffoons for attempting to accomplish female-specific roles, but also as “ridiculous men” for playing the conventional ‘macho’ role of masculinity. In both instances, the problems their inadequate maleness creates are only solved by the application of uniquely female talents and intuition.

Perhaps more damaging though is the effort the Feminine Imperative has made in convincing generations of men that masculinity and its expressions (of any kind) is an act, a front, not the real man behind the mask of masculinity that’s already been predetermined by his feminine-primary upbringing.

Women who lack any living experience of the male condition have the calculated temerity to define for men what they should consider manhood – from a feminine-primary context. This is why men’s preconception of vulnerability being a sign of strength is fundamentally flawed. Their concept of vulnerability stems from a feminine pretext.

Masculinity and vulnerability are defined by a female-correct concept of what should best serve the Feminine Imperative. That feminine defined masculinity (tough-guy ridiculousness) feeds the need for defining vulnerability as a strength – roll over, show your belly and capitulate to that feminine definition of masculinity – and the cycle perpetuates itself.

The Mask You Live In” by director Jennifer Siebel Newsom (dual surname noted) is the perfect example of this perpetuation. You have a woman deciding for a larger public in a documentary what the male experience is and then solving the problem (i.e. the tired trope of men needing to get more in touch with their emotions) for men.

Men are ridiculous posers. Men are socialized to wear masks to hide what the Feminine Imperative has decided is their true natures (they’re really girls wearing boy masks). Men’s problems extend from their inability to properly emote like women, and once they are raised better (by women and men who comply with the Feminine Imperative) they can cease being “tough” and get along better with women. That’s the real strength that comes from men’s feminized concept of vulnerability – compliance with the Feminine Imperative.

Ironically Newsom is still oblivious to the fact that she can only create such a documentary in an environment of feminine-primacy. No man could produce this and be taken seriously in our contemporary social climate.

It’s indictment of the definers of what masculinity ought to be that they still characterize modern masculinity (based on the ‘feels’) as being problematic when for generations our feminine-primary social order has conditioned men to associate that masculinity in as feminine-beneficial a context as women would want.

They still rely on an outdated formula which presumes the male experience is inferior, a sham, in comparison to the female experience, and then presumes to know what the male experience really is and offers feminine-primary solutions for it.

From The 16 Commandments of Poon:

IV. Don’t play by her rules

If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

True vulnerability is not a value-added selling point for a man when it comes to approaching and attracting women. As with all things, your vulnerability is best discovered by a woman through demonstration –never explaining those vulnerabilities to her with the intent of appearing more human as the feminine would define it.

Women want a bulwark against their own emotionalism, not a co-equal male emoter whose emotionalism would compete with her own. The belief that male vulnerability is a strength is a slippery slope from misguided attraction to emotional codependency, to overt dependency on a woman to accommodate and compensate for the weaknesses that vulnerability really implies.

I know a lot of guys think that displays vulnerability from a position of Alpha dominance, or strength can be endearing for a woman when you’re engaged in an LTR, but I’m saying that’s only the case when the rare instance of vulnerability is unintentionally revealed. Vulnerability is not a strength, and especially not when a man deliberately reveals it with the expectation of a woman appreciating it as a strength.

At some point in any LTR you will show your vulnerable side, and there’s nothing wrong with that. What’s wrong is the overt attempt to parlay that vulnerability into a strength or virtue that you expect that woman to appreciate, feel endearment over or reciprocate with displays of her own vulnerability for.

A chink in the armor is a weakness best kept from view of those who expect you to perform your best in all situations. If that chink is revealed in performing your best, then it may be considered a strength for having overcome it while performing to your best potential. It is never a strength when you expect it to be appreciated as such.

446 comments

  1. Rollo
    You are a GIANT.
    I just finished reading all your posts.

    You have spoken the unspoken.
    If women had the power to burn you on the cross, they would.
    Keep on spreading the word.

  2. Add this to the list of failed sexual stratigies. Jesus, I’m ready to stop identifying with almost all the examples of ‘what not to do.’ Seems like most of the time the problems spin off from treating women like adults. And they likewise can be solved by treating them like children.
    I had to run similar game when I was a substitute teacher in the public schools. Could’ve never imagined that wifes and girlfriends would require the same frame.

  3. to keep the typical woman behaving you have to make sure she sees you as part of the out group. being vulnerable ( word makes me want to puke) makes you part of her in group which means you are a safe target for her bullshit games.

  4. lol dw women are children. why do think feminism is such a failure? it relies on women being adults. Ancient wisdom the world over knew women are kids and held them in check… or died out.

  5. Here is meat. “Vulnerability is not a strength, and especially not when a man deliberately reveals it with the expectation of a woman appreciating it as a strength.”

  6. “Hypergamy doesn’t care about how well you can express your humanness”

    It is of dire importance that men keep this fact in mind: when women say they want to be treated as humans, that is a shit test designed to see if you will act like a girl for their amusement.

  7. Rollo, in all seriousness, one of your most important and straight to the point posts. But I have one quibble:

    “As with all things, your vulnerability is best discovered by a woman through demonstration…..”

    Not even this is acceptable. I learned this the hard way. As I mentioned here before, there was a 18 month period in which I lost two best friends, and several family members.. I held it together for the most part, but one final straw was a patient I had been caring for, and old gentlemen who was supposed to die soon after I started treating him.. well he lasted five years. For five years I did his treatments that kept him alive and saw him several times a week… he died, and worse, by everyones estimation, it may have been my fault. Not negligence, just a bad situation…
    Anyway, I went home that night and the woman I had been seeing for two years was there and as we spoke it eventually spilled out.. I cried, I was devastated and exhausted.
    What I remember most was at some point, the look of almost disgust from her as she said all the right things.. yet every nuance of her body language and face said otherwise- I had shown my belly. She gave me the “I need space” thing a week later as I was rebuilding and fighting for my career.
    You can never be weak, never be vulnerable… no matter what. I thought I had learned that lesson, and even under the most extreme circumstance, it turned out, nothing makes vulnerability with a woman safe.
    Fucked up, but true.

  8. @scfton re: “being vulnerable … makes you part of her in group”

    Correct. Women wield vulnerability as their primary tool with which to construct *female*-to-female intimacy. It’s amazing, if you’ve ever been “one of the girls”, to hear how strange women bond. To become instant friends, women who’ve just met will discuss, in no particular order:
    1. Their diseases and gross side effects
    2. Their boyfriends’ sexual pecularities
    3. The secret code to the safe holding the day cash at their workplace
    I’ve come to the conclusion that women’s revealing of vulnerabilities *is* a demostration of strength, to them, i.e. as a test to see if you’re strong enough to hurt them with what they told you.

  9. I’ll say it as straight as I can.

    Mutual vulnerability is indeed the royal highway to intimacy. You’ll become closer than ever before. You’ll become like sisters, and share pink panties.

  10. I am rereading nmmng for the 4th time. There’s something very settling/soothing about it. It gets me/my frame back on track. This is especially important now, since i’ve been floundering lately~ I don’t know who i am anymore. Scary feeling.

    Sent from my iPhone

    >

  11. I think that if you look at most of the blockbusters from Hollywood, excepting Cameron’s bullshit film, most are based on male machismo. A lot of women follow these hero’s through” whatever” two, again, etc.

    The males in attendance dream of being as machismo as these characters, the women lust for them.

    Need anymore proof that vulnerability is for pussy’s?

  12. From that article:

    Many men have been socialised to appear to be strong and in control. This perceived need to hide any weakness can interfere with their ability to experience intimacy, since real intimacy always involves some degree of vulnerability.

    This is precisely the feminine defined narrative that the FI has perpetuated for men I’m describing here.

    The only socialization that’s occurred in the past 60 years is the expectation that men should believe this desire for strength and control is in any way a weakness.

    The natural suppression of vulnerability is an evolved, species survival behavior that’s preserved those who learned it, not a socialized aspect of flawed masculinity.

    The real truth is that men have been socialized since the sexual revolution to sputter out their Beta emotionalism at a moment’s notice in an effort to appeal to this feminine-primary definition of intimacy and with an expectation that women will be receptive to it. Only after that vulnerability is the source of his rejection, or worse, the Achilles Heel that’s used against him does he understand (hopefully) the consequences of that vulnerability.

  13. “First, the humanness he believes a woman will respect isn’t the attraction cue he believes it is. Ten minutes perusing blogs about the left-swiping habits of women using Tinder (or @Tinderfessions) is enough to verify that women aren’t desirous of the kind of “humanness” he’s been conditioned to believe women are receptive to.”

    heh, i’ll just drop this here:

  14. Just a thought on the Newsom article:

    “Ironically Newsom is still oblivious to the fact that she can only create such a documentary in an environment of feminine-primacy. No man could produce this and be taken seriously in our contemporary social climate.”

    One thing to remember about most female advice to men… it’s not really FOR MEN. It’s actually geared for the SINGLE MOTHERS of young men/boys who need to be “taught” properly. These mothers could not “fix” ex-dad but they will try their darndest to change junior.

    If I reword and elaborate you can see the tone:

    Newsom quote that Rollo used (my elaborations):
    “Many men have been socialised to appear to be strong and in control
    (by ex husbands who don’t want junior to be a pansy). This perceived need to hide any weakness (because if junior appears weak he will get undivided bully attention) can interfere with their ability to experience intimacy (love his mama and always listen to her), since real intimacy always involves some degree of vulnerability (come cry to mama and she will make junior’s booboo better).”

    I pointedly bring up the “vulnerability” meme in the context of bullies. It is an absolute tragedy what female centric advice is given out in schools and homes on bullying. Just terrible…

    There are tons of examples but the New York Times is the worst about publishing articles of Single Moms ruining their boys.

    In one article a Single Jewish mother of 3 boys. Crowed about how she took her eldest of 12 to a self defense class. After telling the instructor in terse terms she did not want “aggressive hitting or kicking” taught to her victim/boy. The instructor taught victim/boy how to hold his aggressor down. Any man worth his XY would _know_ this pin the bully down is a non-starter. Because _drum roll_ bullies never confront a victim alone. And… gee while victim/boy is pinning bully-boy down… who is he showing his vulnerable back to? Yep great advice Single Jewish Mom!

  15. The first mate and I were discussing “women are incapable of loving” today. She said “I like love”. And I said, “Of course you do, but you are incapable of loving.” I pointed out to her that she couldn’t bond with me until she started saying, “I like seeing you with other women. It makes me hot for you.” – Yeah I’m Red Pilling her. – And she acknowledged that.

    She then went on to ascribe that to a difficult childhood. I said, “No. I go to certain men’s sites (heh) and all women are like that.

    I said the Bible had it right. Women are not happy unless they submit to a man. She had to agree.

    Then we talked about women’s magazines and I told her that the advice offered was uniformly bad given the nature of women. She agreed. Grudgingly.

    Feminism is a bubble. It will burst. The lost “value” will be immense. But it was never real.

  16. Eric
    November 24th, 2014 at 1:11 am

    I wish I’d read this when I was 15.

    I had the very good fortune to be introduced to the rudiments of Game by my first GF at age 18. Back in ’62. I was VERY lucky. The girl was very bright and knew what actually attracted her. A UChicago girl.

  17. This is something I’ve been trying to articulate for a while and I think you summed it up nicely. Feminism has long told men that they are flawed. From the feminist perspective, it is men which are the problem and their concept of how men should be is a given. It has an allure because of the humanist element involved: Treating everyone equally; recognizing each other’s humanity; removing one class of people from the “top” of the pyramid. But there’s not much evidence to support their concept of Men™. And there’s no place in feminism for men to define masculinity for themselves. It’s an incongruity which has been bothering me for a while.

    Even if we grant gendered crimes as a male dominated area (no pun intended), that doesn’t mean women know how to be men any better than men do. So where did this idea of listening to women regarding the nature of masculinity come from? If your whole experience in life is constructed by being a woman in a “male dominated society,” wouldn’t you have a biased opinion of what men are and should be?

    I’m happy to see this explicated better than I have been able to. I kept getting stuck trying to figure out how to explain what was wrong with women telling men they’re not human because men wont act the way women want them to.
    Thanks!

  18. jf12
    November 24th, 2014 at 12:07 am

    The first mate used to have one of those kinds of friends. And every interaction with this “friend” depressed her. Since I have been Red Pilling her this “friend” has much less attraction to her.

    She has found that she prefers feeling good and attraction to me to being depressed.

    The husband of this “friend” is a very funny kind of beta. He totally controls her and at the same time lets her get away with a lifetime of this crap. He tried bonding with me by giving me the “you are so smart” routine. Tons of praise. And then telling me at the end of this boost phase “but I’m pretty smart too” with examples.

    So I would often say – why don’t we do a project together? For years. Nothing ever happened. I rarely see him or e-mail him any more.

    Men that hunt together bond. Men that go to war together bond. Betas (of various stripes) cry in the wilderness.

    jf12 – nice to see you coming out of the wilderness. Like the Marines the world can always use a few more good men.

  19. Hobbes
    November 24th, 2014 at 12:03 am

    Have you studied the body’s endocannabinoid system? May I suggest a video by Dr. Donald Abrams.

    It is probably too technical for the average layperson but I think you’d be right at home with it.

  20. walawala, I believe attention whoring is at least a semi conceous act. Vulnerability has been beaten into many a young mans head by their mothers for 60 years now. It is a demon that must be exorcised from the male psyche.

  21. Rollo, what if this vulnerability is not just a mate differentiation strategy, but a real need. Don’t you wish you could truly be vulnerable with your wife every now and then? In other words, it’s more than simply trying to game your wife as a strategy akin to being a “nice guy”. As long as you’re “performing”, isn’t vulnerability ok? The real problem seems to be that when we need to be vulnerable the most, it is the same time when our performance is suffering the greatest – and hence, the hypergamy shit storm begins.

  22. For the life of me I can not understand how you guys discuss this sort of thing all the time and still manage to harbor interest in women. Despite being a heterosexual with a very high sex drive, red-pill has completely killed off my desire for sex and relationships.

    http://www.heretical.com/costello/13gleftb.html

    “Soldier Jilted

    An American girl who had been going steady with a soldier posted overseas in 1943 jilted him after receiving a letter from him telling of the emotional strain of life at the front:

    “He was sent to Italy where the fighting was very intense for a long time, and he wrote to me whenever he could. Then, in one of those V-mail letters, he told me he cried many nights during the heavy fighting. In my sheltered life with my stereotyped notions of what a man constituted, the thought of his crying turned my stomach. I was convinced I had loved a coward. I never wrote to him again.”

  23. @Matt

    ”The real problem seems to be that when we need to be vulnerable the most, it is the same time when our performance is suffering the greatest – and hence, the hypergamy shit storm begins.”

    Expect support from your mates,your male friends in life,that’s what fraternities and other all-male clubs are for, share your vulnerabilities with them(Their abolition significantly reduced the capacity of men to thrive). Women are dessert, not the main course.

  24. @ jf12

    I’ve come to the conclusion that women’s revealing of vulnerabilities *is* a demostration of strength”

    It’s a demonstration of femininity. Remember Stalin’s rule: Keep probing with the bayonet until you meet iron.

    Mutual vulnerability is indeed the royal highway to intimacy. You’ll become closer than ever before. You’ll become like sisters, and share pink panties.

    I love your wordplay. BFF, lol. Let’s sneak into the Secret Garden of Pink Panties to spy. Women are so amusing, the little dears.

    Seriously, vulnerability is beta, though if you’re alpha enough and calibrate well, vulnerability can be used as push-pull. Uh, oh, that was Game speak and not real communication. Manipulative. Doh!

  25. I was extremely vulnerable with one woman and never got anything but support and respect. She never treated me like a girl or anything even close to that.

    Bawled my eyes out in front of her at least once. For the 5+ years we talked and she occasionally visited she supported me through everything I complained about, including all the issues I had growing up as a kid with my parents, and everything else.

    But inter-mixed with that was unintentional Game. The reason? Her being morbidly obese and 8 years older than me. And ultimately that is the reason I broke things off with her. Especially after considering I’m only 25, I know she wants kids and a family, and I could only imagine that if I committed to her, not only would I be unhappy because I’m not that attracted to her — I don’t even know if I’ll ever want that lifestyle, and from everything I’ve read and people I’ve talked to, it’s a completely different game after you commit to a woman. Which I’ve never done.

    I do miss expressing that vulnerability so openly and being completely well received and supported for it. She would basically talk me through anything and everything and if I wanted to initiate sex almost immediately after it she was right up for it and would get into it as much as she ever did. Granted most of the time it was over the phone, but the times she did actually visit and we were together were no different.

    I think a lot about her these days. Especially with what I read here, especially articles like this. I WAS vulnerable with her to the fullest extent I know possible, and it was without trying to get anything out of her — it was just that I genuinely had these feelings and thoughts and a desire to express them to get help, and she was completely receptive to that every time.

    It’s kind of fucking with my head to read about other guys’ experiences here because at least with her, that was not my experience at all. There were never any consequences for showing weakness or vulnerability, and in the end I was the one that called it off. Right up until then she kept pushing to be with me.

    Was the tremendous gap in SMV responsible for a lot of our relationship dynamics?

    Was the fact that I WOULDN’T commit to her, and I made that very clear both directly and indirectly, the reason I could “get away” with so much?

    Or was a lot of it the fact that both of us have gone most/all of our lives without any real options?

    If she lost weight (very pretty face) and started having more options, would her behavior toward me have changed? Does a history of not having options really mean anything for girls? Is all that matters what their options are *right now*?

    As in, was the connection I had with her, and thought of as the most genuine intimacy I’ve ever experienced in my life, only possible because I wouldn’t commit to her, unintentionally was “Alpha” with her (because I wasn’t physically attracted to her to the point of activating the “blue pill” “in love” feelings)….and I mean “Alpha” in every sense of the word here. From Dread to the dark triad and being borderline abusive, I covered it all, and I wasn’t even trying to. It was just natural because I didn’t feel “in love” with her, although I liked her and I greatly appreciated the value she brought into my life.

    So I was definitely not vulnerable most of the time. Or even a lot of the time. But a fair amount. She definitely respected me, maybe because I didn’t tolerate disrespect.

    I guess what I’m saying is it’s hard to gauge how much of it was really her, and how much of it was just a reflection of my behavior towards her.

    Does feminism and feminist culture damage women, or merely allow them to operate without restraints as they’d naturally act? Does allowing them to operate without restraints actually damage them?

    Having been with a woman who was, perhaps by virtue of being severely overweight and having no options, very feminine and ‘traditional’ and apparently untainted by the culture we live in, because she didn’t have the option to indulge in it like more sexually desirable girls do —

    — well, anyway, I’m a little confused about this. It was hard for me to call that whole connection with her off, especially after over 5 years. It does cause some mental conflict for me to think back on her.

    It’s like the flip side of beta men. This girl had all the qualities and personality I ever dreamed of having in a woman. But it came in a package that did not look the way I wanted, and ultimately that’s why I bailed. I don’t feel shallow for that. Just kind of upset. Not quite sure how to put it.

    Her being obese was one thing, and reading on this blog and trying to wise up before stepping into a situation I couldn’t get out of was another. This did give me the foresight to not get swept up in desperation.

    Anyway, yeah. I don’t know. No matter how you experience it, when you know what it’s like to be completely vulnerable, and to NOT be disrespected for it — to actually be treated well and actually with respect, for you as a MAN……

    ….no matter how you experience that, once you do, it’s hard to imagine wanting a relationship with a girl that couldn’t include that at all.

    I’m wondering if that’s just my conditioning or the fact that maybe I did develop higher needs to express vulnerability as a result of being physically/emotionally abused and molested growing up. I think that kind of stuff supersedes blue pill/feminist conditioning — I certainly didn’t think I was trying to get the ultimate romantic love, I was just in a lot of pain from a lot of horrible things that happened to me, I would get very emotional, and she supported me through all of it.

    Again…hard to imagine being with a girl that couldn’t offer that, after experiencing it once. Even if it wouldn’t last or would break down in a real, in-person LTR, or whatever.

    Anyway, this has given me a lot to think about. Great post.

  26. This is an A++ post. Reread it a few times and the analysis is spot-on. Rollo is simply on a different level than anyone else.

  27. Great post I couldn’t agree more. Currently red pill aware for about 2 years now. I think another thing that leads to vulnerability is the social conditioning through pop culture placed on growing teens and young adults. You might even call it brainwashing for younger kids who have no concept of game. Every other song promoted by pop culture is about how buying roses and standing in rain pouring out your unconditional love is what wins a woman’s heart. Bruno mars for example I cant stand his songs. Men are taught that they are to qualify themselves to women and put the pussy on a pedestal. Add in a little beyonce or taylor shift and you reinforce the “norm” that the woman is to assume the power position from the start. Every other movie is about some white knight in shining armor who is so different from the macho masculine idiot. Once again ridiculing masculinity as a whole and reinforcing that acting like a pussy is what wins women over since its the only position men can naturally assume with women already the fierce leaders that they are.

  28. My young nieces of 15 (twins) saw me break down when I discover my mother’s Alzheimers disease was moving fast on her. The expression on their young faces were one of disgust and contempt.

    My own mother when my stepfather had a very painful operation and cried because of the pain, she too showed the same reaction to him. I witnessed that.

    My ex wife wrote a relatioshit book and in it she adviced men to be free to express vulnerability to their wives. I corrected her but she refused to believe me. I shared my experiences with her and still would not.

    Most women spread this bullshit about vulnerability to men like they truly believe it is good advice to the destruction of men.

    When my mother died one of my girls cousins approached me (I learned me lesson) she adviced me and gave me permission to cry.

    I refused because I knew that all my relatives would see me as a wimp.

    Never show weakness EVER especially to women.

  29. @Softek re: “Was the tremendous gap in SMV responsible for a lot of our relationship dynamics?”

    Indubitably. She was exhibiting the correct behavior, the desired behavior, because that was all she had to offer. The lesson here, going forward, is that women DO know how to act right so EVERY time they aren’t acting right it is because of their being deliberately malicious, NOT ignorant, by refusing to do what they know you want. EVERY time.

  30. @Infowarrior… “Expect support from your mates,your male friends in life,that’s what fraternities and other all-male clubs are for, share your vulnerabilities with them (Their abolition significantly reduced the capacity of men to thrive).”

    Exactly this. If you ever feel the need to express vulnerability (and even tears), express it with men only (close male friends, your father) — never women, because only men have the capability to even understand it. When I’m feeling vulnerable these days, the very first call I make is to my father — regrettably a man who my mother spent years successfully destroying my relationship with. It’s only since finding the RP that I began rebuilding a relationship with him. His wisdom and insight come from true understanding of what it means to be a man and I feel an incredible bond with him now in his twilight years.

    Men used to have loads of outlets for the expressions of struggle and vulnerability. Boy Scouts, team sports, fraternities, military basic training, etc. If you think about it, these outlets actually *demand* vulnerability. Take football: Only a man can really understand and empathize with a football player crying after a close Super Bowl loss.

    Or take basic training as another example. It’s *goal* is to strip you down to your most vulnerable state and then reconstruct you in a way that strengthens you. It is (or at least was) all done by men who have an implicit understanding of exactly what you’re going through and how vulnerable you feel, and it’s exactly why such incredibly bonds are built.

    The biggest tragedy for men today is that these male-only spaces have been invaded and overtaken by a feminist imperative that requires that we only express vulnerability with women — the same women who have no appreciation for it, and in fact are repulsed by it.

  31. women who look for changing the notion of masculinity aren’t really concerned if said men will become less attractive to the opposite sex. I see those efforts of feminizing men as a pre-emptive attempt to weed out the indesirable crowd of betas.

  32. @sfcton, we all need somebody to lean on, sometimes. I feel a definite need to expose my vulnerabilities, it feels good. It’s not merely emotional “indecent exposure”, it’s hoping my boo-boos get kissed.

    Badpainter on Fake Vulnerability Game, from the Intimacy article: “Sadly this actually works. This leaves me torn being satisfied with my cleverness, and vaguely disappointed that it actually works.” Ginning up the feeling of intimacy can satisfy the longing a bit.

  33. I have been enjoying this series of posts (on intimacy, vulnerability, etc).
    Would it be less “bitter” for men to swallow if they reframe this whole thing as good leadership?

    Does a general tell his troops “You know, I’m feeling really nervous about getting all of you over those mountains in the winter. But if we go around the mountains we’ll surely be attacked head on and most of you will die. I don’t know, I’m feeling kind of lost. What do you think?”

    Does a CEO of a company tell his employees: “I am so worried that we’ll miss our quarterly earnings goals again this quarter. I thought that if I made decision A that things would be better by now, but it looks like I might have fucked up. I just can’t trust my own judgement anymore”

    No, they don’t, because if they did, their troops and their employees would panic and run away. It’s really no different with a woman and children. Just be a good leader (remain calm, confidant, and in control) and you’ll get plenty of loyalty, even if the shit hits the fan.

  34. No, that’s the problem: It’s Not fucked up at all, it’s absolutely what you want! In a real feminine woman a man showing weakness is a scary thing thing. It’s natural for the feminine woman to want to distance herself from men who are weak, who won’t be able to protect her or her children. Think about it this way, what if she had stayed… what if she had not just tolerated your display of weakness but loved it and instead of leaving, she started asserting dominance over you in the relationship? Would it have been worth it? Would you have enjoyed her babying you and treating you like a child after that point? There are two reasons a woman wants to see your hand: to fold and get out of dodge, or so she can win.

  35. Think of the first Rocky movies. At the end, he is usually getting his ass handed to him in the ring. He’s got his coach in the corner though, telling him he can do it. It enables him to dig deep and end up winning. Isn’t that what we really want for our women? There is no question the coach would have been knocked out in the first round. He simply doesn’t have what it takes to win the fight. His value is in his encouragement. It helps knowing you have someone in your corner who isn’t going to think of you as weak as you painfully push through the seemingly insurmountable obstacle. That is what we want from our women. It is a cold slap in the face when you first realize no such relationship can exist.

  36. This post reminded me of a news show. I think it was prime time. It was a show about the battle for Robert’s Ridge in Afghanistan. They showed a predator feed of the battle to the ranger commander and his wife. It wa surreal. This hero calmly points out RPGs and Taliban. The wife forced them to stop showing it. The show edited her freak out but it was obvious she didn’t like hubby hero explaining the battle. Now I get what was going on she didn’t want to have him share. She wanted to be kept in the dark and not see her hubby impacted by the events. And the reaction from hero hubby was very telling… It was like he could not believe she didn’t support him

  37. @Is This Thing On – I do think you can get that from a woman, but it would have to be a woman very in love. So, in effect, you’d have not to *need* it from her. You’d have to already be demonstrating, unequivocally, that you are on the case and are fully intending to push through said obstacle.

    I think a really important distinction needs to be drawn between showing weakness and neediness and being in a circumstance where you are getting your ass kicked. It’s not advisable to be in a situation where you are getting your ass kicked in from of a woman, of course (figuratively or literally), but you stand a chance of maintaining her devotion and, yes, her encouragement, if you do not turn to her for help nor show your self-doubt and deflation.

  38. And, if it makes you feel any better, women also want to be loved, desired, and adored for their souls even if they get fat and sloppy. Adults don’t get unconditional love, c’est la vie.

  39. Rollo, your posts are great but I feel that you often take things a step too far, towards some conspiratorial/Machiavellian concept of the “Feminine Imperative”. I see you as someone who has a good handle on exposing facts, but when you cross the line into subjective editorializing it gets attention at the expense of objective truth.

    I think there is benefit in looking at men and women and their behavior from a sociobiological perspective. Humans ultimately want (roughly) the same things, they just go about getting them in different ways. Strategies may be more or less effective, but are any of them are inherently ‘bad’ when there is no deliberate attempt to harm another?

    Please keep sharing your thoughts on how men and women behave towards one another. I think you would find an even wider audience if you followed your own implied advice in this article about someone from one gender presuming to speak for the other.

  40. @jf12 – someone is giving you the answers to the test so that you can pass and you are arguing with the answers.

    You are correct on one thing: women do not care what you need from them when they are disgusted with your demonstrative weakness. You have the remedy available to you yet you refuse to apply it.

    No matter what the topic, some people really just won’t get out of their own way…

  41. Same as with intimacy, the request for more vulnerability is just another shit test. If you fail it there will be a price to pay. The more and the graver you fail it, the higher that price will be. Talking from experience here. Never show a woman weakness. If you need to cry, do it in private. If you feel depressed, hit the gym as hard as you can.

  42. 1. The cult of vulnerability, in my view, is just one more avenue women use to test and compete with men. As an adult I’ve cried twice; the two women who observed these episodes were contemptuous, sure, but oddly triumphant. They both took the attitude that the tears proved *defeat*, that some long-running contest had just ended and … SCOREBOARD! I have puzzled over this competitive response — not merely a contemptuous response — for years. They appeared to be saying “I win!” It’s not a conscious winning, but it is a moment, I think, when a woman says “Now he will do as I say.”

    2. I was a proper, progressive post-feminist male for a few decades. So to be “evolved” I had to be capable of emotional catastrophe; I had to share; I had to stare into the abyss and provide running commentary.

    While I was still married, however, I was in a promising back-and-forth with the fiction editor at The New Yorker. (Send in a story, get a note back with “this is not quite there, send me more asap” etc. This had been going on for about a year and I was close, I suspect, to publishing, because the editor was personally cultivating me, and their slush pile is 10 feet tall — per day. He didn’t have time to read anyone they weren’t interested in. I decided to up the ante and produce something longer and edgier.)

    So my next story was a lurid recounting of two young couples and a drunken foray into the privileged horsey set, some truthy and taboo revelations by the narrator, etc. Very, very “brave” revelations. I always let the ex- read the pieces before mailing them up to NYC. She said with electric, vicious contempt: “I don’t want to know a man like that. It would be humiliating if that is the first story they publish. I don’t want anyone we know to know you think these things.” And she meant it. I didn’t send it out and stopped writing for 10 years.

    3. What I’m incredulous about, in regard to my naivete, is that *no woman* wants an “evolved” “vulnerable” 747 pilot; no woman wants a CEO who cries in the staff meeting; no woman runs for protection to the cop who’s sitting on the curb with his head in his hands. Most of us instinctually get this, and the popular culture sustains the virtue of emotional reticence in these roles. (Conversely, the pathetic boy-bitch Ben Affleck plays in Gone Girl renders him a feminist object of ridicule.) Yet for 50 years we’ve been trying to comply with the new masculinity, despite the laughter and contempt such pajama boys earn. What a disconnect.

  43. @stuttie, re: “Improving relationships” link

    Notice how the entire content is dismissive of the man’s needs, and the only advice is for the man to adopt the woman’s agenda in toto. In particular, the man is urged to better appreciate “intimacy without sex”, and to cease expressing his need for sex after the honeymoon period, because the woman cannot be expected to care about him and it makes her sad to be constantly reminded of her selfishness.

  44. Tinder Master, 150 pp of that stuff, if you could just figure out how to spoof the little hotties’ appearances, and you’ve got a book and a movie deal.

    Question, are any of these chicks actually good at sex? What percentage?

    I’m older so the women I see (I’m convinced) think the same way, but have to cloak the freaky in layers of convention and deniability.

  45. Another great post, thanks Rollo. First, I can confirm that women of all stripes – friends, sisters, daughters, lovers and even strangers on the fucking street – will not treat a man who is vulnerable well.

    As I’ve described here for a while, I watched my SMV go up and down throughout my life, but when I was struck by illness and financial/career trouble in 2007-8 onward, I could not believe how it played out. I put on weight, I became less fit, I lost my sweet East Village apartment and my six figure job. I lost my confidence and drive for a while. I looked like shit and my life looked like shit. I went from a lifetime “type A guy” and a “winner” to something much less.

    Every woman turned on me. They either attacked me or abandoned me, and none of them really cared. It’s what drove me to the Red Pill. The contrast was stunning. When I was rolling in cash and was strong and dominant and had ‘the look’, they treated me differently (it was not just the money).

    Now I’m back on my feet and their appreciation and respect is returning. But it means so much less to me, and the funny thing is, I think the women who did this to me know it. It’s part of “getting it” that we don’t talk about. Realizing that female attention just isn’t that valuable is part of what getting it is really all about.

    There is a much deeper cultural aspect to this, though. And that is the moral/political haywire and chaos the imposition of female values/imperative creates as it becomes dominant. Sadly, Nietzsche predicted all this. Put very simply, women aren’t up to ruling the world, yet they are doing so and as a result, the world looks like a joke. Don’t believe me? Just look at all of academia and in the govts of the West and at institutions like the U.N. and see how women and their ideas about “social justice” (the unifying-field -theory for neo-marxists)infects everything. This entire neo-Marxist movement is dominated by women, and Beta men.

    And don’t kid yourself, Barack Obama is the ultimate Beta man. His entire life has been shaped and run by women in very large ways. And their ideas are laughable. Seriously, if you get down to their actual theories and the metaphysics behind what these fascists actually believe, it’s just plain stupid. Post-Structuralism or John Rawls Theory of Justice – these are idiotic ideas when compared to true genius of many actual philosophers and geniuses throughout the ages. Don’t believe me? Read say Lucretius’ On The Nature of Things and then and read Rawls Social Justice theory and try not to laugh at its trivial hamhandness. Fyi, anyone seriously interested in a decimation of Rawls ideas, just read Robert Nozick, Anarchy, State and Utopia. Funny, I bet most here don’t even know who John Rawls is – he was awarded the Medal of Freedom in ’98, by Clinton who claimed, “He saved democracy”. His ideas are central to Progressive thought today and he’s widely seen as the most important political philosopher of the 20th century. And his ideas are shit. Even he didn’t take them that seriously at the time, and he was surprised at how brisk the uptake was. You see the left was running low on excuses for still buying into Marxism, and this became the new idea to rally around. And it’s a joke, but it’s incredibly politically useful to divide the world into victims and oppressors. My point is that with this theory, and others, they now have proof that we are evil and they have the upper hand morally in every encounter. From the outset, and really, at all times.

    This is my final and hopefully most important point. A huge part of the game going on between men and women is occurring on the field of economics and politics, and is informed by a theoretical idea about morality that seeks to demonize men, and in particular white men, as oppressors and bigots and thugs. This provides an incredible “privilege” which women are unwilling to give up for even a second. It permits the many subtle cuts and rubs and digs and leveraging that women pull all the time which men just let go of. But it does wear on us, and over time, with the overall cultural anti-masculine shaming that goes on constantly, it can wear a man down to a nub if he takes it seriously.

    And it’s backfiring on them because they have a bad mental model. They want Alpha, but breed Beta. These fucking morons don’t have a real solution to a single actual problem in our world and their criticism of it isn’t worth the breath it takes to mumble it. They want to run the family, but don’t want to fuck their compliant husbands. They want to respect men, but feel obliged to attack and denigrate any man who dares stand up on his hind legs. They want to work, but want to be home with the family too. They want to see themselves as tough, but then call for male protection the moment they feel scared at all.

    Saddest? That men don’t grasp their real power. Example: Any man on this thread who is currently paying university tuition to an institution that does gender or women’s studies is insane. I mean, you do realize it’s mostly men paying the bills for the universities, which is the cesspit from which all this originates? Yet where is the men’s movement calling for a boycott of said universities? Where are the men forming their own collectives and communities to work against these forces? Look into your town’s politics – is it run by leftist women? Look into every organization in your community – are they run by leftist women? Do you think that’s an accident?

    We’ve let them overrun us because we either want to fuck them or want their approval, or both – or were too busy focusing on our own lives. Me, I still want to fuck them but could not care less what the lot of them think. Most very smart people are men – this is simply a fact found in any study of how human intelligence distributes itself. I don’t miss many good ideas by just grin-fucking women while they babble. I don’t even pretend to listen anymore…

  46. An innately masculine man does not feel a need to feel or show weakness. He only thinks about how to move forward. With that said, it is important to be realistic in every situation. But, only from a position of fearlessness and strength. Forgetting the woman’s presence, a man is much happier when he feels that way. There is no shit test that can trouble you when all you care about is being your most dominant, authentic self.

  47. @myrealitie re: “You have the remedy available to you”

    What was that remedy? The problem is that women do not respond properly to being treated well by men, to being treated as a “human”, to being treated as a comrade or fellow-traveller, to being treated as compassionate.

  48. @Glenn – I agree 100% with “Now I’m back on my feet and their appreciation and respect is returning. But it means so much less to me, and the funny thing is, I think the women who did this to me know it. It’s part of “getting it” that we don’t talk about. Realizing that female attention just isn’t that valuable is part of what getting it is really all about.”
    I also agree with the political/economic commentary.

    @jf12 – the remedy is to stop thinking that the “proper” way for a woman to behave is different from the way they actually do behave. It’s kind of like refusing to move away from an earthquake fault zone because you are too busy cursing nature for improper and unfair earthquakes. Not a winning strategy. I realize a board like this is perhaps a safe place for men to complain with each other, but the truth is that your bitterness and sense of being ripped off will just hold you back over, and over, and over again. Again, when dealing with women think of yourself as a leader in some capacity, of a company or an army etc. Maybe it will help with your self-sabotaging bitterness.

  49. The turn-off with displaying vulnerability is that when women empathize, many believe they can handle the situation better than you, e.g., that they are stronger, more alpha than you. And when they can’t understand the nature of your vulnerability, then they believe you are atypical and that a stronger man would not have such a problem.

  50. In the Bible, Job’s wife added greatly to his afflictions by mocking his lamentations and urging him to die. Job’s male friends come and mourn with him in sympathy for many long days, but their somewhat tepid comfort is tempered by their assumption that Job had done something wrong. This fairly minor and understandable error of theirs is roundly condemned by God and errabody, because guys oughta have a heart.

    But nobody expects anything better out of Job’s wife, because she’s female.

  51. A common meme is that feminism is one big shit test. When women tell men to display vulnerability, it’s just another shit test. Women aren’t even consciously aware of their shit testing. They don’t know why or how they do it. They just know they have to fitness test the men in their lives.

    Dealing with women is truly a “game.” If you don’t know the masculine rules (Red Pill), you’re going to end up a weak beta bitch.

  52. Extraordinary post.

    “Women want a bulwark against their own emotionalism, not a co-equal male emoter whose emotionalism would compete with her own.”

    Women want a bulwark against their own emotionalism, not a co-equal male emoter whose emotionalism would compete with her own.

  53. Been to both of these extremes. Like Hobbes I made the mistake of showing too much emotion when a family member died suddenly; after that the woman I was seeing didn’t want to even know who I was. To be fair, it was early on, and I could see where that would be a turnoff to someone who didn’t know me that well yet.

    Indeed it isn’t just women who blanch at displays of male vulnerability. NO ONE wants to see someone meltdown or have a breakdown, especially a man, anytime anywhere. Everyone – male or female – gets antsy and backs away. I do it too. It’s a weird knot in the pit of your stomach. Especially where it’s neither your duty nor desire to help out, if you can help at all, even worse when you’re truly helpless but wish you could do something. Plus if you try to help you run the risk of becoming the target, the distressed person takes out their meltdown on you, so no good deed goes unpunished.

    When you do slip and show a litle vulnerability, I’ve learned the way through is to excuse yourself for a bit to collect yourself, then ASAP say “I’ve got this” or state the way through the problem. Then be a stoic about it ever after. You can use the little slip up as a way to rebuild frame if you do it promptly. You’ve shown a little vulnerability but, as the cliche says, you’ve shown it doesn’t get you down. You encounter, adapt, and overcome, as the Marines say. If you need to vent, you do it when you’re alone and no one can see, if you don’t have (or don’t need) a trusted brother or counselor.

    Yeah this is not what the SNAG “nice guy” Code would have you do: a nice little sniffle-fest, then play a Cat Stevens song.

  54. The thing about the red pill is it instantly makes you more alpha. I’m not saying it turns a complete simp into “The Alpha” overnight, but it makes a man in what ever his current state instantly more alpha than he was.

    The point being, all men are naturally more alpha than they end up because of the immense weight of social conditioning. As I raise my son, I want to pass all this information on to him so he has less or possibly nothing to unwind when he grows older. Any thoughts on age appropriateness when it comes to these lessons? What should a father tell a son about his own mother?

  55. I must say, the examples of men grieving the loss of a loved one is kind of where I draw the line. If a women’s hypergamy is so strong that she can’t even let a man grieve, it is simply better to next that woman. If that means nexting all women, then call me a MGTOW.

  56. @ cynical observer:
    I wonder about the same thing. After reading a lot of RP stuff I finally began to understand the true nature of women and it wasn’t pretty. I flipped and got very angry and indifferent to them, because maybe I felt they should be more (human, i.e. rational) than they apparently are.
    However this disappointment killed the desire for them and it hasn’t come back until now.

  57. This was a great post, filled with lots of wisdom that I wish I had learned at a younger age. The right place for men to show vulnerability is with other men in a situation of mutual respect, who can understand what you’re going through. Unfortunately, society has done a good job at killing these types of relationships and removing the situations where these types of relationship would historically have been formed. If I could do one thing to help the situation of men in our society, it would be to mandate more male-only interaction, free from the influence of women.

    When it comes to marriage, there are times your vulnerability will come out. These times should be limited, and a guy sure as hell shouldn’t be looking for openings to express his vulnerabilities to his wife and kids. When it does come up, it should be a “this is tough, I’m nervous, but I will handle it” show of vulnerability. Hopefully you have a good woman who will do what she can to support you through it, which you can help by showing a consistent ability to handle it. If you get to the situation where you have to say “I can’t handle this”, find another guy to help you.

  58. re: “the remedy is to stop thinking”

    Yeah, well, thinking’s kinda my gig. Besides which, pretending that “ought” is worse than “is” is on the wrong side of that fallacy.

  59. What is it that women think they are *for*? If you are a woman, why would a man choose to be with you, to communicate with you, to have a relationship with you, instead of some guy? What of you is valuable for him?

    (hint: I’m asking this in the context of his vulnerability/intimacy)

  60. I look at being vulnerable as a screening process for which woman are potential long term partners. As you say, in gaining attraction/arousal they are futile attempts. But, it is important to show small displays of vulnerability and see how your woman reacts. If the alpha frame/dominance is already in place then the outcome will be favorable and they should be used in small doses to keep a strong relationship. Any healthy woman will act out in bad ways in the long run if you show no signs of vulnerability.

  61. Presumably the most useful part of Fake Vulnerability Game is in the rope-a-dope sense, whereby the woman will wear herself out trying to exploit your fake vulnerability. “Please, let’s not bring up my large N in public anymore. It makes me embarassed that other women will think I used to be a player.”

  62. @BuenaVista

    “Tinder Master, 150 pp of that stuff, if you could just figure out how to spoof the little hotties’ appearances, and you’ve got a book and a movie deal.”

    LOL, that is a good idea but it isn’t me in the picture. I got that off the bodybuilding forums after it was making rounds there. But in my experience, the responses are the same for me. Just have a look at something recent some girl sent me:

    “Question, are any of these chicks actually good at sex? What percentage?”

    Well, how good the sex comes out to be depends on two things: Her perception of my alpha value and/or her level of experience.

    I’ve banged virgins and girls with very low notch counts (re: 3 and below) and while they are enthusiastic and put a lot of effort, they still need to be taught how to do it “right” in some areas. For instance, some girls have never given blowjobs before(funny how it grossed them out before but now they’re fine to do it) so I still need to show them how to do it without using their teeth. There’s been many times where I damn near wanted to slap a chick for her awful bj “technique”. It felt like a shark was giving me head, lol.

    The girls with experience really are worth it. Like I said before, I usually put in less effort than her (because she wants to “please me”) and just go along for the ride (pun intended). But as for a percentage, I’ll say 70% are anywhere from good to great, 20% are eh and 10% are chicks I wouldn’t mind ever banging again.

    “I’m older so the women I see (I’m convinced) think the same way, but have to cloak the freaky in layers of convention and deniability.”

    Girls on Tinder are really no different than the girls you meet at the supermarket, school, or church. You are right in hinting that all women have the potential to unleash their inner whore to a man they desire. Women never really “mature” per say, they just get older.

    Another thing to mention is I really dislike the statement that “only attention whores and sluts go on tinder”. That’s not completely true. Your daughter, niece, or cousin could be on this app and you wouldn’t know it. All women have an innate drive to seek alpha and tinder simply gives them the opportunity to optimize their hypergamy.

    I’ve seen wives (with pictures of her wedding), girls admitting to being in a relationship looking for a “boytoy”, and chicks flat out saying “I want nothing serious just *friends*”. The way I see it, is girls are simply being the way they’ve always been, but the difference now, is there’s no need for them to hide it anymore (re: open hypergamy).

  63. @ Junior needs to grow up

    Any healthy woman will act out in bad ways in the long run if you show no signs of vulnerability.

    Umm, no, better to hide it unless it’s in a game context (even marital game). There’s a reason that men have an urge to cry privately. Other than at my mother’s funeral when I shed a few tears, my wife never saw me cry. I’m covered by an iron frame, so I can indulge a few tears.

  64. @ Tinder

    I can see Tinder if you have great pics (kissable face, lickable body). If you need Game to get you past appearance, Tinder is a no go.

    I met a very effeminate guy who dances and he is hetero and gets women at dance venues all the time.

    If you have a little strength, you can dip women and they feel your strength, tingles follow, etc. Then do the lean where your arm is across their body under a boob and your hand on their tummy with them leaning and you supporting their weight. Hands all over them, just like women like.

    I dipped one woman twice at her request, then she said that her friend wanted to be dipped. Signal says…”she wants you.” So I dipped the friend twice and rolled her in and out and leaned her. She was so giggly and said how much she liked it. I worked her up and took her back to her spot and left the bar, lol.

  65. Yep, as a woman I can attest that this is spot on. Ive actually had two men I went out on a few dates with tell me that they cried at sad commercials. It instantly killed my potentiol for attraction. I always wondered if that was true or if they were just saying it bc they thought it made them sound sensitive and that’s what i wanted to hear. I’m so glad I had a true, strong father figure who showed me what a man should be, but it’s getting harder and harder to find men that embrace traditional concepts of masculinity. The thing is, although you talk about Feminism brainwashing society, all of my girlfriends openly acknowledge and know that we want strong, traditional males. It’s the guys that aren’t embracing these roles and concepts, not the women.

  66. Ang, my own life plays out just like that. They don’t want to know…. though I am not 100% certain why.

    If women wanted what they say the wanted in men I’d never get laid.

    The loss of your loved one is likely a loss for her too. You have to keep your frame. I heard nothing but positive feed back from the women in my family when my little brother died. No tears etc, just took care of bidness in the most calming manner I have. Thats what women want. They are tossed around enough by their worries, fears and emotions. They don;t need yours added to the mix

  67. Peter Gabriel is a great source of music from a mans persepctive- not red pill per se, but he gets at what men dream of when they idealize women and love. Listen to this song, and make not of the womans part.. it’s a distilled essence of the support men dream women were capable of . Note too his part- never giving up.. all the while expressing vulnerability..
    Brilliant song

  68. @crazylittle- the problem with women wanting “traditional” men is that you aren’t worth the bother or the cost. If you are not a traditional woman- chaste until marriage, stay at home mother, and a good concubine who makes her man the number one priority in life, then sorry, its basically pump and dump with you.
    You can’t demand top dollar for used goods. That is basically the core of the problem today.

  69. @ crazylittle

    The thing is, although you talk about Feminism brainwashing society, all of my girlfriends openly acknowledge and know that we want strong, traditional males. It’s the guys that aren’t embracing these roles and concepts, not the women.</I

    Yeah, cuz it's all about you wymenz cuz you're such speshul snowflakes. The brainwashing is aimed at you wymenz. Not. It couldn't be that feminists are brainwashing men, could it? Women know the score–it's the men who are being brainwashed and told that they need to be better women. Again with the pedestalization of women. Solipsism on steroids.

  70. Lack of chastity may be the problem, Hobbes, but not for the reason you’re stating. It’s not that men insist on committing to “traditional” women. Men with options don’t have to commit to anyone in today’s environment (sex readily available), and they often do not. Men that are not attractive to women for any number of reasons can’t hold onto women in a culture where it’s possible to divorce without shame. Please don’t pretend that the 2nd group of men isn’t willing to commit to slutty and/or career oriented women, it’s just not true. The root of the problem is that those men don’t know how to hold onto a woman. If they learned how, would they still want to stay in a committed relationship, or would they prefer to play the field with those skills? I have no idea. Maybe that depends on how important kids and a family life is to them.

    In an environment with unchecked hypergamy, you can either a) complain about it and “go your own way” out of bitterness, or b) adapt and decide to have plenty of unattached sex or keep a woman interested in marriage (if kids are important to you).

    I don’t see unchecked hypergamy going anywhere, no matter how much you cry about it. So, adapt or be bitter, your choice.

  71. Wow. More than once I can see myself doing everything mentioned and showing a position of vulnerability in my pre red pill past. Thank you for the post.

  72. Hobbes smacks down Crazylittle … hopefully to her liking … “you aren’t worth the bother or the cost”

    I’m still not seeing ANY attempt answer to my question: What do women think they are *for*?

  73. @myrealitie- I think you have me mistaken.. I am neither bitter or lacking for female attention. I am merely pointing out the reality- women are not worth playing the traditional role of provider for. Whether you are a beta or a alpha male, marrying and playing the traditional role today is hardly worth it, unless you get married young.
    Women are asking for “traditional” men are full of shit. It’s a shaming tactic used to manipulate men into playing a role that benefits women. Full stop. Thats it. And I understand her need to do so.. but that doesn’t mean it’s a good deal for the man in the current climate.
    And as to the “problem with those men”.. it’s that they are brainwashed into accepting what the FI has programmed into them… thats what the RP is for.

  74. LOL. Nobody was “smacked down”. This article is about men mistakenly thinking vulnerability is an attractive trait to women, and I simply agreed with it. This article is also educating men about what women DO find attractive (strength). So, why are you reading it and/or why does the topic concern you, if you “don’t care” about what women want?

  75. @Hobbes – where are you getting this idea that it is not worth it for them? I think it is based on a misguided assumption that chaste women are more loyal and less willing to cheat/leave. That is just not true. Young women (many of which are virgins or quite inexperienced before marriage) leave marriages at higher rates than older women because they have… wait for it… more opportunities!

    The bottom line is that it’s not worth getting married and being a “traditional” man if you aren’t confidant you can be a good leader and keep a house and a woman on a steady and happy path.

    Now, has the “feminist” agenda contributed to the socialization of men away from that skill? Yes, absolutely, and that is very unfortunate.

    So what is a man to do? Become solid, self sufficient, and effective as a human being. Then, decide what kind of path you want. If you want to take advantage of “hypergamy” and sleep with lots of women, do it. If you want get married, do that. If you want to get married to a virgin, go ahead. They are available… IF you know how to get and keep a woman interested.

  76. @myrealitie- I see you only look at what feminism has done to men, but you fail to mention what it has done to women is much more relevant to this topic. It has rendered women not worth providing for.

    Again, you provide a long long list of things men “should” do, and how if they don’t do it its because they lack somehow..
    Not a word as to what women are supposed to bring to the table, whats required of them in return, and what qualities they “should” develop to make themselves worth the investment.

    Are you a woman? Not asking as an insult, just curious. Can’t imagine a RP man employing this thought process

  77. Below is part of a Thank You email I sent to Rollo a while back:

    “I think for myself, do what want, and say what’s on my mind. Not that I’m a prick, I’m a good guy and most people love me. That was the way my Dad raised me. From the time I was fourteen, I knew what I wanted to do. We had a small family business that I was going to build into a big family business. And I did. When I became CEO at 26, there were 40 competitors in our market; now there are 3. We do tens of millions in sales. I cannot think of a goal I have ever set for myself, personally or professionally, that I have not attained.

    I married at 30 to a girl I thought was my life mate. We had four kids by 38, a big house, swimming pool, vacations, big cars; the whole package. Then a funny thing happened. As I approached 50, I started asking myself, “What’s left?” Where am I going and why should I go there? I started hating my work, I fight the same battles over and over; what’s the point? I started a new business and built it into a multi-million dollar division of my company in a couple years. I made sales calls and closed accounts that used to leave me high and jazzed, now: Nothing. Emptiness. Almost sadness. I didn’t know why. Mid-life crisis? Depression? Me, depressed … no way, can’t be, anyone else but not me.

    I’m not a big talker about my feelings to my spouse, but I could not figure this out so I confided. Big mistake. Mr. NoDoubts who always knew what to do, where to go and how to get there was suddenly lost. I thought that after all those years when I helped her through post partum blues and depression and anxiety; she would understand and help me. It’s only fair, right? Isn’t that what life mates do? Mine missed that chapter of the life mate’s manual. In fact, the little bit of support I used to have was withdrawn, driving me deeper into my basement bar, drinking beer and gaining weight: 70 pounds to be exact.

    We came back from a family trip to Hawaii for her birthday and she became more and more miserable. The old me would have told her to shape the fuck up or get out, or otherwise “fixed” it somehow. The new me didn’t care. You want to be miserable, knock yourself out, I’ll be in the bar drinking beer and watching Breaking Bad.

    Forward to Christmas two years ago. My wife comes down and drops a bomb that she’s not in love with me and, would be, her exact words, “outta here if it wasn’t for the kids”. I’m a great provider and she loves me but is not in love with me; she loves me like a brother; you know all the high school girl bullshit. I’m stunned, shocked, hurt, disappointed and bewildered (what I should have been was pissed off).”

    I understand first hand what expressing vulnerability did to my family. No good will ever come from showing weakness to any woman. The problem is I never heard of the Red Pill until AFTER I was fucked. I was asking for help where I’d never asked for help before from the one person I thought I could trust. Turns out my trust was not warranted.

    I’m at peace because I understand why; but saddened to realize that if you don’t perform and show any weakness, your woman’s love is gone. I can never look a woman the same way again.

  78. @crazylittle- And I am just educating you as to why those men who are more than capable of being those type of men choose to pump and dump you. Simple really.

    We don’t read here to learn how to give women what they want, we come here to learn the truths about female/male nature and to use that information to improve our lives and inform our lifes decisions.. whether that benefits women in the slightest is, I guarantee you, of little concern.

    While women may be part of the subject matter here- it is not about you.

  79. @crazylittle
    “What women need to do isn’t the topic of this article.”

    Of course, and so when talking about this article we should pretend the entire world outside of the article doesn’t exist. lol… fucking female logic, right there

  80. You aren’t educating me on anything of the sort. I didn’t come here seeking your advice, nor do I get “pumped and dumped”. But thanks for presuming you know anything about me. I also find the info on male/female relations given here quite interesting and beneficial in terms of understanding human nature. I don’t know or care why you read this stuff, but the slant of the article DOES involve what women want and find attractive, whether you like it and/or care about it or not.

  81. @Crazylittle, re: “what this article is about”

    It is an interesting fact that the best way to avoid simplying complex topics by making them dearily fuzzy is to enhance the contrast, to what seems to be cartoonish degrees. When talkingabout men’s relationships w ith women, no matter how crude and crayon and fauvish the outlines, it is never outlandish enough for my tastes.

    In this particular case it is way too fuzzy to say men think vulnerability is attractive. What is more true is that men have it force-fed to them all their lives, almost entirely by women, since we old men are not permitted to do more than smile sympathetically, that there is some nice woman out there who will be supportive of a nice man during his infrequent weak moments. Rollo put it well “it is common practice for men who believe in the equalist fantasy that women will rise above their feral natures when it comes to attraction, and base their sexual selection on his emotional intelligence.”

    The realtie is that even that women think that it is too much of a burden to be even such a pathetically easy version of a reasonably nice woman. So women, since being loosed by the sexual revolution, have become feral, and the tameness and niceness which ought to be as common as field mice has become far rarer than unicorns. Like I said, it is impossible to sufficiently exaggerate the current situation.

    The feral Feminine Imperative *demands* that an apex alpha be made sexually available to her without cost during a fertile period and then that apex alpha bemade to deteriorate throughout the short honeymoon period, so that he will be satisfied with intimacy instead of sex happily ever after. The FI *demands* bed death, among other things. It’s not the fault of men for not being strong enough.

  82. Yes, I am a woman.

    The list of things i mentioned men “should” do are for their own benefit. I made a point of trying to illustrate that. I am not giving men a prescription of actions only so that I can benefit and they can suffer.

    I think we need to clear something up in order to proceed with this conversation: What Crazylittle and I are agreeing we’d love to see men do is not about providing. No one but you said anything about providing. Neither her nor I was asking for a world of men to take care our whims so that we can treat them like trash in return. What we are agreeing with, the premise of this post, is about good leadership and solid emotion regulation.
    Because that makes women feel great. And a woman who feels great isn’t going anywhere and is also not more concerned with her career than her man.

    As a woman, how did I make myself worth a marriage investment? I made sure to take care of myself physically, i made sure not to be in debt, i made sure not to have a history of poor integrity, among other things. No one is saying women are “off the hook.” The fact is, people of any gender with options try to get the best deal that they can get. People want to marry people who make them proud. In addition to that, people don’t want to marry people they have to prop up emotionally. This particular article is about men and vulnerability, but the truth is that men don’t want to be with women who do not have their shit together either, who are too needy or helpless.

    Why did I happen to be reading this article today? Because recently my very successful and generally sexy husband has been moping this week about a very minor career mishap that he has been obsessing over. And it really tanks my attraction. I don’t even think the actual event is a big deal whatsoever, but rather, his moping and showing excessive vulnerability around it. Thank god he actually caught that he was stressing me out with his behavior. It’s not like talking to me about it even helps him! If he kept his bad feelings too himself and carried on I would still be here providing plenty of loyalty.

  83. This article leaves me thinking about the concept of vulnerability. After reading Models by Mark Manson I have not read a critique on that concept.

  84. @Atticus re: “Mine missed that chapter of the life mate’s manual.”

    They all did. The big big lesson here is that AWALT. Which is the opposite of a comforting thought.

  85. @myrealitie re: “And a woman who feels great isn’t going anywhere”

    Fact: women’s feelings change all the time, and are not linked to objective reality. Hence, a woman “feeling great” has zero (nay, negative) predictive value. Concede that, and we can proceed further.

  86. @ Crazylittle – Aren’t you cute? Newsflash – over 80% of divorces where there are young children involved are initiated by the wife, not the man. So, first off, understand the nature of the complaint. It’s first and foremost that women are trying to have their cake while they are eating it, and they are utterly destroying the traditional family and many men’s lives along the way. Fyi, I realize that male suffering doesn’t mean that much to even cool women, but still, it’s something I notice and care about immensely.

    But even worse, your sisters have conned many men into believing that if they are just “good guys” who listen and are “friends first” and aren’t aggressive and don’t try to be in charge that they will be rewarded someday with their pussy. Nope, it turns out instead your sisters – at least the hot ones – mostly ride the alpha cock carousel to their delight, banging assholes left, right and center, and then settle for a Beta who they begrudingly fuck and lose respect for. That same 22 year old who deep throated all the boys in a quad one night, now at 31, with Todd the systems analyst at the bank who can take her to St. Maarten on holiday, well she finds blowjobs just kind of gross with Todd, sorry. That’s the life that’s been given to most men today who are “winners” in the grand game of winning marriage with a woman today. And the alpha guys who do get married, they hand their wives a loaded gun the moment children arrive.

    And you are wondering why men aren’t signing up? These boys and young men have seen two generations of fathers and men treated as though they are disposable by women – do you think they and we haven’t noticed? There is no point of being a gentleman and a good provider and a good father and patient and considerate if there is no long term payoff. And women have clearly signaled that they can and will change their minds – the average marriage in the U.S. lasts 8 years.

    You see, when you could actually make us believe fucking only you and paying you and our children’s way through life was a goal worth attaining due to the respect we would be paid, and the loyalty and support we would receive through the good times and the bad, well then the deal sort of made sense. But now there is no payoff. Even if you do manage to not get divorced, you can almost guarantee your parental authority as a man will be constantly challenged and lessened by society and by your wife and your children’s teachers in the female owned primary education system.

    Or what about the bottom half of men who will never get to reproduce, who women discard as “creeps” and losers? You know, the 50% of guys who are gross and scary if they dare speak to women? What are those men supposed to do? Be happy with losing their whole life, even though they keep trying to be “real men”? The game for men is set up to make us believe there is a payoff for all of us, that there is “the one” out there who “true love” is possible with and that even if we aren’t the greatest looking guy, someone out there sees how special I am, and will find me. All I need to do is keep working and studying and excelling and coming in early and staying late and getting promotions and make more money and be sensitive and open and vulnerable – do you see this a bit more clearly yet?

    The issue is that it’s a lie. Women are banging the guys who make them wet, and Betas are designed to dry the genital area of a women in record time. Sure, you come along now and say, “Yeah, men, act more like men, we actually don’t like this” – but you don’t get how this happened. Your sisters and mothers and aunts and teachers and counselors etc made this world the way it is. They crushed men and made them betas. You need to get them to stop because you are in a tiny minority of women who are willing to at least entertain reality. Go to them, not us, and tell them to wake the fuck up and how their actions are destroying a big chunk of a generation of young men who don’t even know how to be men.

    Even in the best of times, men’s lot in life has often involved quite a bit of brutishness and loss and denigration and suffering – typically quite a bit more than a women’s. If you don’t make it somehow in the rough and tumble competition of men, you are treated like you are invisible and pathetic as a man. It does help all of humanity to have all men striving and women skimming off the genetic cream as it were, but for the worker bees, well let’s just say there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for them. And they are revolting. In part this is because they are seeing guys who supposedly won at that game – guys like me – who married women who never even would speak to them, we were getting chewed up and spit out too. You see, your sisters have crushed hope for men, and that’s like allowing a horse to spit the bit out and run for a bit.

    Men like me, who’ve had our hopes and dreams and lives smashed by a woman who was out for herself after promising to love and cherish us, well. we’ve woken up. We are alerting other men that the contest isn’t worth playing or winning, and how easily everything you think is “your’s” can be snatched a way from you in a moment’s notice by a woman. Getting married is a sucker’s game for men.

    If you want to do anything about it, talk to other women about being such horrific human beings. Basically, women aren’t worth men’s service anymore. You can’t be trusted as partners and men are spitting the bits out of their mouths. Nothing you say here will change that. If women begin to stop leaving their husbands in droves, now that’s something that might make a difference. Have you got any solutions for that? Cuz telling men to “man up” again is not going to work. We laugh at you.

    I don’t mind knowing that women are hypergamous and learning how much they are functioning off of attraction, I mind being sold that I have to “win a woman over”, that monogamy is part of “true love”, that there is “the one” for me. All that crap served a social system that no longer exists – yet men are still playing it. I mind being made to feel that my horny nature was somehow shameful, when, for example, finding a 20 year old woman hot is not creepy at 52 because I’m genetically programmed to see young women that way. I mind an entire society creating a disease called “erectile dysfunction” to pathologize the fact that men can’t get an erection to fuck their aging wives. Have you ever even considered why a man takes the little blue pill? It’s so he can do stud service to a woman he doesn’t really even want to fuck at all – talk about “rape culture”, who’s sexual agency is being impinged upon in this scenario? Fyi, as a single older man I’ve never taken one of those pills, I never have to make myself get it up to fuck anyone, lol, it only happens to my married friends. And that’s just one of many examples of the imbalances we never discuss.

    I have an acid test for supposedly “chill” or Red Pill Women. If a woman really gets it, what she should pretty quickly realize is that there are many men out there who are suffering horribly because they’ve been rejected by women utterly. At least 40% of men live a life of sexual deprivation while they crave a woman’s touch and kindness, and sexual interest. They are virgins at 25 or 30 or later – there are men on this blog who live such desperate, painful lives. I say if a woman really gets that suffering, they should throw these guys a lay. Not me – I’ve had more pussy than 10 men should have a right to expect in a lifetime, I’m good without any charity.

    But there are many men (on this blog and elsewhere) who’s lives could be improved immeasurably if a nice girl would just say, “Sure, let’s fuck. Let’s get it out of your system”. Tell me, are you going to do that? I mean, you get it and all, right? Wait – he’s not hot enough? But you want all men to compete with each other for pussy anyway, even though many will never get any?

    Nah, not anymore. The alphas have figured out that they don’t have to provision/protect to get laid and the Betas are getting fed up with the crap and the lies. And the newer generation sees it all and goes, “What the fuck?” The real question is why would any man in his right mind want to marry a woman today?

    Fyi, I’m an aging, semi-natural, unconscious, former alpha who only woke up a couple of years ago to the true nature of human intersexual relations. I’m not a bitter loser at this game but rather a guy who did quite well from a numbers perspective, but I never really understood it. Alternately too assertive and then ashamed, I embodied the mix of passion and guilt a guy from an Irish Catholic background stereotypically possessed. I was cocky and also had relationships with some women where I was quite assertive. But there were also other women and times when I’d go full pathetic Beta pussy in a way that I could not even admit to myself until this year. I mean, wow, and being vulnerable with women was a huge mistake that I made.

    What’s very funny about all of this though is how most women and men intuitively get that the Red Pill POV makes a lot of sense. It’s as though we keep “two sets of books in our heads” (the late Christopher Hitchens described this not so encouraging ability of humans in this way, RIP), in which we certainly know what’s really going on in terms of attraction and dominance and power in relationships, it’s just that we don’t talk about it or deal with it in any kind of straight-up way. It’s interesting, when it came to explaining to my daughter how relationships worked, I said,”it’s all about hand. Who has the upper hand?” For me, I instinctively knew that relationships in which I was dominant were much calmer and happier for me, but that didn’t help me stay in them or not seek women in which I was pursuing, where I was the one who was chasing all the time. I did both – it’s weird, and never really understood it.I always felt guilty about being dominant, I thought it was wrong, and right, to begin with.

    The Red Pill cured all that and much more. When women start getting how fundamental this all is and start being actually responsible for their behavior in the way that men are, I’ll be willing to listen, But until then? I’ll pull up a chair right next to you and watch it all burn too. I mean, why shouldn’t we live in a society that is in decline and riven with social conflict? Why not us, right? And I’ll keep treating women as seems appropriate based on how they present themselves to me, which is to say, mostly like children.

  87. re: “They are available… IF you know how to get and keep a woman interested.”

    Be a bad boy. Be an emotional robot. Be strong without any weaknesses. Be completely immune to heartache and completely dismiss everything a woman ever says or does.

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