SoSuave and Rational Male reader compleks had a few questions about what he read in The Rational Male book. Since I’ve been doing these weekend questions lately I thought these might make for some interesting discussions. Hopefully they wont distract you from family time this holiday weekend, but maybe they make for some interesting dinner table talk.
Just a side note here, I’m deliberately leaving my own answers less detailed than I normally would so as to inspire your owndiscussions:
If The Rational Male was recommended to me as a book about game, I probably wouldn’t have read it. But my friend who put me onto it basically described it as a life altering piece that would forever change the way I viewed the world of inter-gender relations.
So I read it.
Being freshly unplugged I’m still just awakening from that groggy comatose/confused state. However I feel as though I have a slight head start on at least some of the material. Just by sheer chance, rather than any real research into the subject.
I’ve only ever been in one LTR (2years), and it was with the girl I first hooked up with (she let me sleep with her, better hang onto this one!). Anyway, I ended that (5-6years ago) and have been single ever since, with no desire of entering another relationship.
I started ‘spinning plates’ about a year ago, just through a natural realization that any moral/ethical objection was actually completely unfounded. Not just my own (programmed) objections, but objections from the feminine perspective, which I guess are one in the same. I thought I must have been ‘wired’ differently because I had no desire of settling back into a LTR. I actually argued my case on multiple occasions to avoid it happening.
This book was eye opening and definitely shed some light on issues I never would have even thought to question.
If you care to keep reading I’m just going to spew some thoughts/questions having just finished the book. Keep in mind this is from a very rudimentary understanding of the text.
1) Does ONEitis best Hypergamy?
We all know a girl (either personally or anecdotally) who is in a committed relationship with some deadbeat. Everyone knows she can do better, but you can’t possibly convince her to leave him. What factors are at play here? Does SHE suffer from ONEitis to the point that her hypergamous tendencies have been shut off?
Or could it be a case of low self esteem and lack of self worth, so much so that she believes he is the best she can do? Or could he actually just be an Alpha male (albeit a bad example of one)? I’m sure there’s a grey area or middle ground here with many factors potentially at play depending on the specific scenarios. But it’s a pretty common scenario and I’d like to hear what you guys think.
I get this one now and then – “What about this one great looking girl I know who’s stuck on this complete douchebag, deadbeat, scumbag, suckup, :insert invective here:?” While I’m not sold on the idea that women ever get ONEitis for a guy, I am thoroughly convinced that women being 1-2 SMV points below a particular man they’re involved with develop a strong attachment for him.
For women, oftentimes that attachment gets paired with the soul-mate myth. I’d separate that “spiritualism” from the ONEitis a man gets for a woman, but it’s still rooted in the same dynamic – the subconscious realization that this person is the ‘best they can do’ in the SMP.
The reason I’d make the separation between how men experience ONEitis and women is due to the concepts either have when it comes to love. Women’s concept of love is rooted in opportunism as a result of their innate drive towards hypergamous optimization. All this ‘deadbeat’ needs do is be perceptually 1-2 levels above her own perceived SMV and the Alpha prerequisite for Hypergamy is met.
Most guys looking from the outside of that perception in realize the guy’s a fuck up (even Alpha Buddah, Corey Worthington is an example), and we can’t understand why that subjectively hot woman can’t use reason and rationality to see that he is, but then, this is due to our own self-perceptions and our mistaken belief that women’s reason can be appealed to.
2) Genuine Inter-Gender friendships?
Okay, so i don’t have the book with me. But I remember reading a sub-section on inter-gender relationships. It didn’t sit well with me when I read it, but it’s probably something I will have to re-read. I have a lot of female friends. Friendships that go back 15 years. Some of these are very close friends in a completely non-sexual way.
I’m closer with some of these girls than I am with many of my male friends.
Initially these friendships may have blossomed based on the fact that I was a shy kid and didn’t have any ‘intimate’ relationships with women till I was 19. But they are now concreted as some of my most valued friendships.
What is your take on Rollos opinion of inter-gender friendships (as outlined in the rational male)?
My take in the book, and still is, is that men and women cannot be friends in the same way and to the same degree of intimacy that same sex friendships develop.
Men and women cannot be friends in the way or to the degree that most people perceive same sex friendship to be. Now the natural response to this is “I have lots of female friends” or “what are you trying to say, I can’t have female friends, they all haffta be enemies?” Which of course is the standard binary (black or white, all or nothing) retort and the trained AFC thinks anyone suggesting that men and women’s relations as friends could be anything less than equitable and fulfilling is just a neanderthal chauvinist thinking. However, they are incorrect – not because you wouldn’t want to actually be a woman’s friend. There are fundamental differences in the ways men and women view friendship within the framework of their own sex and the ways this transfers to the concept of intergender-friendship.
Quite simply there are limitations on the degree to which a friendship can develop between men and women. The easy illustration of this is that at some point your female “friend” will become intimately involved with another male; at which point the quality of what you perceived as a legitimate friendship will decay. It must decay for her intimate relationship to mature. For instance, I’ve been married for 18 years now; were I to entertain a deep friendship with another female (particularly an attractive female) other than my wife, my interest in this woman automatically becomes suspect of infidelity – and of course the same holds true for women with man-friends. This dynamic simply doesn’t exist for same sex friendships because the sexual aspect is inconsequential.
I should add here that the presumption of an equatable degree, character or quality of intergender friendship (platonic) being the same as a same-sex friendship is a product of the same “we’re-all-the-same-with-different-plumbing” naive equalism that deliberately ignores complementary differences between the sexes.
This presumption is actually a vetting mechanism for women’s control of sexual selection and Hypergamy. The social convention that promotes the idea of equitable concepts of friendship only serves women’s imperative of being able to hold the attentions of multiple male orbiters until such a time that she can optimize both sides of her sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks). The longer you’re rapt by the idea of an equal intergender friendship, the longer she has to consolidate on whatever side of hypergamy she’s prioritizing at the phase of life she’s in. In other words, the longer you’re in the bullpen, the longer you’ll be a Plan B prospect.
3) Religion vs Evolution vs Habit?
This is a bit abstract. But in terms of a decayed loveless marriage, what would you say are the factors holding these marriages together? Neither party is happy, but they are also unwilling to do anything about it.
One clings to a religious frame as reason to not leave/divorce, as the children are all old enough now that “staying together for the childrens sake” no longer applies.
The other seems completely indifferent and stuck in the routine. Both are mid 50’s and have been married for 30 years and probably just scarred shitless of being alone. But what would you make of this from an ‘unplugged’ point of view. (might be a stretch from the realm of this book, but just curious).
What you’re describing is akin to the phenomenon of Grey Divorce. In the time line from my Preventative Medicine series, I briefly outline what’s known as the 20 year itch – the period of life, usually after 50 around the time a long-married couple becomes ’empty nesters’ and the binding responsibilities of raising children is at, or almost at an end.
It’s around this phase that a reassessment of one’s partner takes place and the prospects of living out the rest of a life with that person gets serious consideration. This is a phase that’s very telling of the overall prospects of marriage as an institution on whole and how either sex really considers their idealistic, loving union from very mater-of-fact practicality, when there is no longer a mutually cooperative goal (childrearing) as the centerpiece of that relationship.
Religion and/or a conviction that children are better raised by an involved two parent (male and female) family who are both mutually invested in the success of their kids is generally a bond that both parties mutually agree to as the cornerstone of their marriage.
Once that goal has been met (or termed out) then that relationship must be reestablished and based on a genuine interest and desire for the other person. For a man this may involve his realizing an understanding of tenets of the Game that he’s, until then, unwittingly been a party to. For women this may be a longing for renewed interest from extra-marital (but not necessarily infidelity) attentions and desire from other men.
It’s kind of telling how men’s idealistic concept of love endures beyond his late-life Epiphany stage. In spite of having experienced the consequences and all-downside risks men face in their prior marriages, it’s still overwhelmingly men who want to remarry and take another shot at that idealism.
It is women, in either their veiled pragmatism or their aging, unrealizable opportunistic concept of love who are more or less indifferent to the prospects of remarriage.
“Most currently divorced or widowed men are open to the idea of remarriage, but women in the same circumstances are less likely to be,” says the report, which draws on figures from a survey it conducted in May and June. Almost two thirds of men either want to remarry or would at least consider it, while fewer than a half of women would.
These stats alone are more than enough to verify my assertions of how either sex hold different concepts of love.
Men still dream of an idealistic love, and women have find precious little use for men beyond the practical when presented with the prospect of having to optimize Hypergamy at an age they are no longer capable of intersexual competition.
does this mean as long as you know how to meet a women’s emotional side, you can play around ?
Inspired by your cartoon. “I Love You Always Forever”
To their credit, women are capable of imagining Twu Wuv feelings quite accurately, but possibly those feelings are mostly left over from when they were prepubescent girls.
Q1. Does (a woman’s) ONEitis best (her) Hypergamy? A1. No. Women do not latch into oneitis like men do. Women latch onto their infants instead. As Rollo said, a woman might have starz in her eyez for you if you’re alpha enough to her, but that is exactly hypergamy at play. My sister is a doctor, in her 60s now, and is on her sixth husband. She’s always been drawn to good-looking alcoholic rednecks, and each one has turned into a lazy bum getting increasingly pudgy and violent towards her until she kicks him out and gets another one. Q2.… Read more »
Most men die having “never gotten it.” Once u get it, u have the skills to chose the woman u feel is best for u, or just keeping spinning plates.
Question 1-At some point that practicality will knock on the door. The rock star look becomes aren’t you a little old for that look without an actual record deal. Question 2-Could men and women be friends? I’ve thought yes, but maybe the key is saying to the same degree as men/men. Most of the time that practical thing comes in again. Women like to base male friends or acquaintances if you like on what they can do for them. The guy with the pick up truck. Others who aren’t seem to not be able to keep themselves out of getting… Read more »
Regarding your answer to #3, I’d also add that men want to make—and keep—vows or oaths. He may consider (or commit) sexual or intimate infidelity but, as men are the gatekeepers of commitment, he remains committed to his commitment. Men can and do embrace the suck; women, not so much.
Can men and women be “friends”? I have some insights. I have a number of female “friends”. Mostly they are ex gfs who I still have contact with and DON’T want to bang. I have another “Friend” who i recently banged because I had gamed her, was aloof and that just got her more turned on. We’re back to being “friends” but the sexual tension is there. Finally a third “friend”–girl who has a fiance and orbiters, likes being around guys. Normally I wouldn’t be around such a girl, but she is SMOKING hot and very cool to be with.… Read more »
The only reason to get into a LTR is to raise children. They do better with a stable home from ages 0 to about 18.
I was 8 years old when I had a crush on a girl in my class and my mom was teasing me about it in the presence of my uncle, he looked at me and said : Never fall in love with a woman, she loves you today and she would love someone else tomorrow. I’m 46 now and I’m so glad I followed his advice. Don’t get me wrong though, I still LOVE women but, NEVER trust them or give them ANY secrets. Ps Rollo said, never tell how many women you slept with. Thank you Rollo for the… Read more »
They have oneitis but it’s a different feeling. Men’s oneitis is more possessive and intense. Kind of like food to humans when they are starving. You get possessive over it cause you want it. Girls oneitis is more childish. They feel empty without the attention from a guy who’s been feeding it to her. It’s personal too. If someone else gives her attention she is still bummed about not getting it from ‘the break up guy’. I imagine the feeling is like this: imagine your on the highschool basketball team and you are a bench player. The superstar leading scorer… Read more »
I truly appreciate the vigor this site now has for churning out fresh material and I keep finding gems in the past posts. Might not mean much from a simple commenter, but this is one of the top five sites in all of the sphere.
“So yes, men and women can be friends as long as the MAN understands why he’s involved in the interaction”. Still playing their game. Until men wake the fuck up and stop this nonsense things will get worse for everyone. There’s a reason girls and boys used to be separated unless they were specifically courting to marry or were married. There was no such thing as coed and wasn’t even considered. The old timers would just laugh at you if you suggested men and women could just be friends and hang out together and everything would be alright. They knew… Read more »
You can’t be friends with women you’re attracted to. Period.
You know you could update the copyright to 2014 at the bottom of the page. (Again i see myself as the male in this regard)
Reading this post prompted a retrieval from the fine archives of the Chateau: https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/five-minutes-of-alpha-fifty-years-of-pining/ Here we find an older woman who, after going through a Gray Divorce (her ex-husband then entering a monastery….how fitting) decides to seek out the man she fell for and gave her virginity to…fifty years after the fact. This example might be a statistical outlier in terms of execution, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the profound majority of women out there are in fact alpha widows who constantly fantasize about the one man who knew, consciously or not, how to rock her world. Perhaps… Read more »
“Kind of like food to humans when they are starving.”
Never heard it put so succinctly before, men starve and gorge themselves while women rarely get hungry and nibble often.
Who cares less wins but how is it possible for someone starving to pretend they’re not hungry.
Just a small question, I have several women literally throwing themselves at me and find myself being disgusted by their behaviour but as soon as a woman shows me inattention I become obsessed. Why?
@johny The ones throwing themselves at you are either too low an SMV to be attractive to you or just about to hit the wall and desperate. Both are quite off-putting. If a woman’s inattentive, she’s probably someone you perceived as higher value and accidentally tipped your hand, showing desperation in the process. That or she was never attentive to begin with and you just noticed it after developing an interest in her. As a guy I’ve never found that be ignored by a woman creates my interest in her. It’s always been the other way ’round, due to my… Read more »
Rollo, I got a question. I read this comment. And the guy talked about “The Hierarchy of Abuse from Women”. He said that at first, everything is all chipper, she has genuine desire for you, then she starts to lose it and heads down this path, escalating through the various phases: 1) She begins to pick at you over your messiness, your lack of neatness, the lack of chores around the house. 2) Then she starts to criticize you when she is talking with her friends behind your back. 3) Then she criticizes you to your face in front of… Read more »
So, how’s married life been treating you?
With regards to women getting one-itis… I don’t believe that they get the exact same type of one-itis as men do. I think there are different motivators for a woman to keep a man around, sometimes combined together. I firmly believe that women have a subconscious process that they use to measure valuable men. It works kind of like a high score list in a video game. The men who make the biggest subconscious “impression” stay at the top of the list, while men who just pass in and out of the woman’s life remain at the bottom and regularly… Read more »
Man, it is good to finally read you in the comments. Keep it up.
@Sun Wukong re: “As a guy I’ve never found that be ignored by a woman creates my interest in her. It’s always been the other way ’round, due to my interest being too beta.” Me too. I consider a woman’s interest, willingness, enthusiasm, etc to be a key part of her attractiveness. I’m turned off by disinterest, boredom, etc. In fact, I believe that women in LTR, past the honeymoon period, often exhibit these unattractive personalities specifically to turn off their male partner so he won’t beg them for sex so much. The positive feedback loop from a woman’s interest… Read more »
Narcissists tend to “fall in love” or make the quest of their lives to convince someone who ignores them to start loving them. That’s why some folk might develop oneits for a girl who barely acknowledge his existence, but that is a kid with issues, struggling with the ghosts of his infancy. He wants tha unconditional love that mommy denied, so she could work and earn some financial independence. He might grow as a revolted young male, appear alfa on every aspect, but deep inside he’s an afraid, a beta to the core. So, normal man would not fall for… Read more »
re: “a cool personality”
I would like to read a book by Gillian Flynn featuring the POV of The Cool Girl. She has said explicitly, not merely intimated, that she knows, the same as ALL women know, exactly what personality men like. But she thinks all such women are merely faking it in order to be men-pleasers. As if that’s such a bad thing.
@MM, preemptive self-defense is otherwise known as a first-strike attack.
BTW I firmly believe that women’s desperate interest in romance fiction is due to the fact that they cannot, commonly, experience Twu Luv themselves in their own lives. It’s very easy for a man to fall in love with a woman who treats him right, which things the womenz desire to look into.
Only situation where men and women can be friends is if the woman is a good 20+ years older and no sliver of attraction exists. Which would be true in 99.8% of cases – very few men are attracted to women that much older. Even then, such a friendship wouldn’t be the same as a same sex friendship. When it comes to men and women closer in age, forget it. If the woman is reasonably attractive, he wants to fuck her. Plain and simple.
3) Religion vs Evolution vs Habit? This is a bit abstract. But in terms of a decayed loveless marriage, what would you say are the factors holding these marriages together? Neither party is happy, but they are also unwilling to do anything about it. You could make this question Religion vs Evolution vs Habit vs Financial? I’m constantly amazed how many men have stay-at-home wives and still cook and clean when they get home. It’s pathetic. The fat wife sitting by the pool drinking Corona with the next door neighbor-whale all day, and the man gets home and gets busy… Read more »
Will sez: “One thing I can’t understand is how my parents are in their 60s now and still married well. Like wtf? My dad isn’t all that either. We’re an upper middle class family but my mom is the perfect wife. I don’t get it. Don’t know where to find someone like that. She cooks dinner every night and puts up with so much shit and has a good paying job.” Will it’s quite apparent you aren’t learning anything by being here. You need to: 1) Get your Mom down off that damn pedestal. 2) Understand that (if she allegedly… Read more »
jf12 – “But she thinks all such women are merely faking it in order to be men-pleasers. As if that’s such a bad thing.”
It is a bad thing. It’s an admission that women have nothing to offer but lies and illusions because if they stopped “faking it” men would realize that Dr. Dre was right and that bitches ain’t shit.
My answers for this weeks questions: 1. Men have oneitis, women become Alpha widows. Apples and oranges yet both are bad for men. 2. Yes friendships with women are possible, but they of a completely different nature than friendships between men. Failure on the part of either the man or the woman to keep that in mind will cause problems. 3. Religion as belief in something greater than ourselves is an evolved phychological characteristic that mitigates the worst excesses of our basic nature. Habituation serves a similar purpose in the context of the question. We talk about how in the… Read more »
Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend. There are fundamental differences in the ways men and women view friendship within the framework of their own sex and the ways this transfers to the concept of intergender-friendship. I get called to the carpet for this as much as my assertions on the gender concepts of love, but both dynamics are intertwined. Women talk, men do: http://therationalmale.com/2014/03/03/women-talk-men-do/ Men Like Women When a man attempts to communicate like a woman (context-primary), women associate him with the feminine (i.e. he talks like a woman). This subconsciously indicates to… Read more »
The effects of culture can be strong on women. Just as our culture trains men to be betas other cultures train women to be betas. Consider for a moment the country paraguay at one time the seat of power of spain in south america. At one point they managed to go to war at the same time with argentina uruguay and brazil. The war went so badly for them they lost 85 percent of the men. And you can imagine the men that were left were mostly the old and the young. Now imagine what that would do to a… Read more »
Why would you want want to be just friends with a chick? She going to bail you out in a brawl? Invade a small nation to break you out of jail? Help you gut a deer? Spot you when you squat? Fix your bike? Land a marlin?
“… at an age they are no longer capable of intersexual competition” this assumes rational thought. Robin Korth thought it was possible to date a slightly younger man (she also thinks it’s possible to feel “like a Barbie Doll on acid”). Madonna still posts topless pictures. A woman I know in her early 50s dumped the beta buxs (big house, kids all grown), did the alpha hunt (posting bikini shots from her 40s), ended up with reverse beta buxs (partly employed guy wants to move in to her new small place). A reason why the 50+ divorced women don’t want… Read more »
for 10 more questions (not from me): http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2nrpvl/just_finished_the_rational_male_holy_shit_i_am_a/ and cutting and pasting for “badass” Rollo: So basically, My wife cheated on me and I am in the process of divorce. To be honest, I think something dramatic and drastic needs to happen in a man’s life before he is ready for something so powerful as TRP. Like the saying goes, “when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.” I suspect that, had I seen this forum half a year ago I would dismiss it as delusional or misogynist. My beta, nice guy, pushover highly feminized self could never accept… Read more »
@Rollo “Men cannot help but accede frame in a male-female “friendship”, thus any idea of friendship is always going to proceed from a feminine-primary definition of it.” I’m of two mind about this. On the one hand, you have a point and my past days as a beta LJBF orbiter would absolutely back you up. On the other hand, I think part of why a woman wants to be “friends” with a higher value man that flips the script (this is the case with one of the few chicks that I’m friends with these days) is because of his possibly… Read more »
(the 10 questions post was removed from r/theredpill, likely since it was not posted to r/asktrp)
“Most men die having “never gotten it.” Once u get it, u have the skills to chose the woman u feel is best for u, or just keeping spinning plates.”
To answer the questions in Rollo’s post (is everybody in a turkey induced coma?) 1) Does ONEitis best Hypergamy? Let’s rephrase this as: Does strong emotional attachment best Hypergamy? The answer is no, but the threshold level is increased. Say your woman is a 5, you a 7. Along comes an 8. Now she can have a temporary +1 but she loses a lot of 7, and since she is getting older, that 7 might not be available any longer. Still if a 10 decides to hit on the 5, it’s hamster and get banged. The good news is if… Read more »
First question: What is it that you want, really?
if you are replying to the 10 questions, it’s not my questions
@SunWukong re: “On the one hand, you have a point and my past days as a beta LJBF orbiter would absolutely back you up.”
Yes. Women find it easy to just be friends with a man to whom they have zero (or negative) sexual attraction. In my case, I call it being treated as one of the girls; my women friends never bother trying to raise themselves to be “one of the boys”.
I’ll try to say it as straight as I can. If a woman, e.g. your woman, is refusing to be man-pleasing towards you then she is not doing so ignorantly. She wants you to be aware that she does not care if you are pleased, almost always specifically to turn you off from her. Therefore her man un-pleasing can be said to be “fake”, i.e. deliberate, calculated, just as much as her man-pleasing.
Hey I would like to get an opinion on this. I am recently finished The Rational Male. Read it without ever hearing about this website or Rollo Tomassi. I will say the man is astute in his analysis. But anyway what are your thoughts on this: In today’s dating scene woman seem to value humor in men more than anything else. There are three explanations I have for this. They are in order of most likely (in my opinion). 1. Women want humor in men because men are not seen as much as providers as jesters for woman’s amusement. 2.… Read more »
As with all things women, her version of one-itis is purely a cynical and logical construct. If she meets a guy with sufficient high SMV- a guy who she can show off to friends, a guy who fits all her many pre-requisites, then she develops a “need” for him based on the fear of him getting away and her not realizing her “life-plan”. It’s not so much that she truly loves in the sense that a man does, but it will seem that way to her and the casual observer. As to friendships with women, I tend to think of… Read more »
humor; I think its how they gauge a mans cleverness esp in social situations. Its hard to get away with more overt AMOG behavior and women are not good at mechanics, math etc so they cannot judge that sort of intelligence. Also they don’t have a concept of a well ordered life so they cannot judge that sort of cleverness…… its like humor is their one way of judging social intelligence which they mistake for IQ etc all…
I’m wasted on cough syrup and no sleep so if that doesn’t make sense I’ll try again later
it’s like a flat tax
marriage should be an actual contract
whoever quits gets nothing/zero/nada people would think twice about entering into an actual no crap binding contract
you leave, you get nothing, PERIOD
JT; “woman seem to value humor in men more than anything else.”
Hold your hand out, you naughty boy!
Believing what women say they want, instead of watching what they do
Given an unconstrained choice between Cheeky Charming Dancing Monkeyboy, and Grimly Grimmenstein, the Monosyllabic Long-Schlonged 2-metre Jock, who’s she going home (or to the restroom/back alley) with?
[all invocation of the hallucination commonly referred to as the “Quality Woman” is hereby strictly revoked for the purposes of this argument]
@JT. Girls do value humor on a date. Not so much on a hook up.
@Desdinova. That was a good explanation without being long. I never thought subject itself needed long explanation. It was breaking through people’s denial of how women can be, coupled with lifting the veil off the supporting infrastructure that’s been built up that you get into chapters and books.
@Mr. Minter. Good fences make good neighbors
Separate bathrooms make good marriages
@JT, the answer is: jesters. Comedians DO NOT get a lot of sexual attention btw, especially compared to other entertainers. On the other hand, those of us men who aren’t sexy to look at HAVE to rely on other, necessarily beta, signals such as jesting, intelligence, provisioning, etc.
BTW the key to understanding women’s motivations is, as Tam said, completely avoiding “Believing what women say they want, instead of watching what they do”. Because women do not know what they want ever, and do not know what they are saying most of the time.
To whom it may concern: please do not bother trying to derail this convo into fractious No True Humor talk. Thank you.
So, how many times must I say this? How is it that ye still misunderstand? Isn’t it too obvious that if the man has to perform for the woman then he is beta?
I will say this, from the vantage point of age. Women do greatly value humor, but as a service to the women, making the women laugh. Their laughter is usually the only reward, the only payment, for the humor. But a substantial percentage of women do not know how to reward men in any other way than sexually. I greatly misunderstood this phenomenon when younger, often wrongly attributing it to the women being abused earlier, about as often wrongly presuming the women were just teasing. The fun fact for the day: a LOT of women will offer sex; real, enthusiastic,… Read more »
@sfcton, the DXM will mess with your REM sleep bad.
re: Men want to re-marry My friend’s a good example of the opposite case. Knew his ex-wife for 25 years, married for 18, had two kids with her. She filed for divorce back in the early 2000’s, and since that ended, she’s tried multiple times to get back with him, but he’s left her out in the cold. Also has no desire to get married again to anyone, ever. She called him on the phone trying to explain why she got the divorce, and he just said “I don’t want to know, and I don’t care” and hung up on… Read more »
“I asked one guy and pretty much got labeled ‘sexist'”
asking a beta how things work is like asking a bus driver how to fly a jet fighter
“woman seem to value humor in men more than anything else”
they value emotional intelligence, such as seen in men who know when and how to use humor
in particular men who can agree and amplify a shit test. who can tease her mercilessly, and then go “just kidding”. who can give her an endless amount of both positive and negative emotional drama. who is never boring.
I’m not sold on the idea that women ever get ONEitis Neither am I. I do know that women expect a certain response to their attractiveness – especially the 9’s and 10’s. So when you do not go by their play-book you are a challenge and one that they feel they must get the expected response from. But other than that, I’ve never seen a woman with the case of ONEitis like I have seen in men. Now I interact with a lot of women after I do a gig and have more than a bit of fun with them,… Read more »
So essentially older women don’t remarry because they lack the physical beauty which would allow them to “marry up.” If they can’t marry up most aren’t interested.
So simple, so obvious and yet I never put that together before.
I suppose I’ll have a crack at some answers to the original questions: 1) A woman’s oneitis *is* her hypergamy talking to her. It will always trade up if it can. Always. In fact in almost all my experience and observation, a woman almost never leaves a man without somebody her hypergamy perceives to be currently higher smv waiting in the wings. If she’s pushed out against her will by a higher smv man, there’s a good chance he’ll become her oneitis, perceiving him higher than any man she settles for in the future. She’ll always be willing to leave… Read more »
Humor is an ‘Attraction’ quality, not an ‘Arousal’ quality.
JF12 I have had two sleep studies that say I don’t do REM.
never went for the big national study
Crikey mate either you’ll go bonkers or you’re half asleep right round the clock. My hippy kid bro would say get some meditation in. (He’s been at it for 30-40 years. Tedious, but at least he’s sober and not an ax-murderer).
re: “Don’t worry about getting in shape” I know this is tongue-in-cheek. And I can definitely attest to that — humor hasn’t gotten me into any girls’ pants. Joking around and being funny after arousal is already established is completely different from when arousal is not established. I’ve noticed girls backing off if I tried sexualizing some of the jokes I was making, or acting creeped out. Kind of pisses me off and takes the “funny” out of me. Maybe mad at myself for acting like a holly jolly Christmas elf with a dunce cap on only to realize that… Read more »
” The hops in beer are highly estrogenic” Despite being a longtime all-grain homebrew monkey, I have noticed this. Recently converted to cider in season. The proper scrumpy, available over here from english farmers by the jerry-can, online. Cuts the tum right off (but does horrible things to your teeth and brain in excess. Balance of risk and all that). Beer is a winter drink.
@ Tam There’s a cider mill nearby that I’ve been meaning to check out. That’s awesome that you’re a home brewer. I’ve never done it myself. I’ve read a bit about the process and was going to try making mead but never got around to it. During the winter I like stouts and porters if I’m going to have beer. There actually was an organic chocolate stout by Samuel Smith’s that I thought was very good. Stone brewery made a smoked vanilla bean porter last year that I enjoyed as well. If I do indulge at all this winter I’ll… Read more »
re: Intergender Friendships I wonder how much we as guys friendzone ourselves by not escalating enough, or fast enough. I’m still getting over the feeling that touching girls is “rude” or unwarranted or is going to get some really bad response, like they’re going to get angry at me or creeped out or something. I just freeze up. Wherever I picked up that fear, it feels like a conditioned response. I just freeze up. I always seem to wait for the “green light” to do anything, and even then I hesitate. I haven’t had a lot of touch in my… Read more »
Hi Rollo, thanks for another awesome article!
I wonder if someday you could illuminate the ways in which men’s love is idealistic. That is how I felt since I was a boy but it is difficult to put into words.
Maybe the number one thing I can think of is that I feel I have a duty to put my wife and kids first. However there are probably 100 better examples or ways to explain how men’s love is idealistic.
One reason MOST men get oneitis (which I don’t think Rollo has covered), is that most men have very little options in the SMP. This makes every girl he happens to bang much more “cherishable” in his eyes. So eventually, he begins to mate guard and do all this other beta shit to keep her on lock, which ironically, makes her want to leave him. Now on the other hand, the average woman has way more options than the average man does. They have to at least subconsciously know this. Which is why women don’t get oneitis (at least in… Read more »
Tinder Master – “I know most girls don’t prefer this set up but eventually they have to give into their biology and have sex with an alpha.”
Which only works because the betas are still at chomping at the bit to wife ’em up at some point.
Beta = stupid. Only the beta mindset could be so foolish to believe these women are worth more than a fuck. Given that the beta won’t get the best performance these women aren’t even really worth that.
In this “whole underground society of sex with no attachment” what would be the approximate ratio of alpha guys like you and objectified women?
Rollo, I just came across this hilarious article about a chick who broke up with her boyfriend and says she still loves him and it was a very hard decision. The comments section is priceless, these chicks are so clueless!
@Badpainter: “Which only works because the betas are still at chomping at the bit to wife ‘em up at some point.” The setup would have worked either way. Chicks are always looking and banging the best, so any indifference on the beta’s part serves them well anyway. I suppose it’s still good so a beta won’t have any mental hangup but she’s still going to keep at it. You can’t change a girl’s genuine desire to fuck top guys. @redlight: In general, I think the top 15%-20% of men get most of the girls at any given place. But what… Read more »
I wonder if someday you could illuminate the ways in which men’s love is idealistic. Turn on any top 40 radio station. Listen to the lyrics men write and sing then compare them to what women write and sing for half an hour. Profit. @Tinder http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/30/there-is-no-one/ The definition of Power is not financial success, status or influence over others, but the degree to which we have control over our own lives. Subscribing to the soulmate mythology necessitates that we recognize powerlessness in this arena of our lives. Better I think it would be to foster a healthy understanding that there… Read more »
tinder master – “so any indifference on the beta’s part serves them well anyway. ” Only if the Alpha Fux are an adequate substitute for the epiphany phase/Beta Bux. I suspect given the preference for short term thinking, and a genuine lack of introspection that Alpha Fux are more than adequate as long as they can get them. When the cat lady stage comes along they have their memories. And Betas can still be counted on to do what’s “right.” Your point about bad things happening in the aggregate when the betas drop out has merit. But so what? Would… Read more »
Watch the movie ‘Her‘. This is a 2-hour illustration of male idealistic love. This plot only works with a male as the main character.
“These things do happen and they’re kept in secrecy by women not out of fear of shame, but from letting “outsiders” in on the good stuff”
and the men keep this in secrecy too? Nobody wanted to try make some bucks writing about it? and the manosphere is devoid of alphas (except you) and thus unaware of this?
Tam I always reckoned they were full of shit but got their nerd hard on’s about a possible research paper
If you “think” you have “friendships” with women simply ask to borrow $20 from one of these “friends” for 2 hrs.
Closely observe the physical pain and anguish she goes through in the process
…finding her hand bag..(shell huff and puff)
….russeling around for her purse…(more groans)…
…..heaving that purse out like it was a 40lb dumbell…(arms straining)..
……snaping it shut at 100decibels and begrudgingly handing the $20 over with NO eye contact.
Then shell cut the conversation and physically remove herself from the situation, and begin to execute a debt collection process more efficient than AMEX.
Max- I’ve always found female friends to be fairly generous with time and money etc. I think women reserve that shit for men they are trying to real into their mating strategy. But even on dates money has not been an issue for me. I rarely cover the whole tab anymore, I never hear any complaints.. although on first dates there is a bit of surprise. Tinder- I think you are right about male one itis being in part a reaction to scarcity, but not completely. I know many a lady killer who just had that One who he pines… Read more »
Imagine this: when you were a kid, you likely fried piss ants with a magnifying glass, yes? And upon achieving that, if you were anything like me, you began trying to burn everything in sight with that focused light… just to learn what was possible. Ok, then, you also learned that the light had to be focused for a long enough sustained period of time for it to get hot enough to begin burning telephone poles or fence posts or whatever, right? Physics. Ok, let’s apply this to the intersexual relationships in YOUR life. Be diffuse, unconfident, doubting, unsure, and… Read more »
@rollo It’s treating me like married life. But its interesting how a man’s attitude and outlook towards it changes with the proper consciousness about it all. I owe you a major debt. I got this long-ish sort of story. When I was in boot camp at Parris Island, way there was this black guy from somewhere in the backwoods south. And the guy was fucking one of the most stupid people I have ever none in my life …. Private Fucking Dudley. I cannot remember any one else’s name, not one other guy. I think the platoon guide was a… Read more »
Hijack ahead: Softek, brewing’s easy if you have the space, hard as hell if not. It’s as messy as fuck and uses a fair bit of power (like any worthwhile pastime). Rule #1: Clean clean cleanity clean. I use dilute poolshock, very very carefully. Rinse rinse rinsety rinse. There aren’t many more Rules, apart from avoiding daylight/fluorescent/UV like The Count. Dark bottles. Boil/oven the fuckers, complete PITA but I find indispensible. Pick the time of year. High summer=useless, and midwinter, unless venturing into the Lager-Reich (very tasty compared to commercial pisswasser). Have a crack at TurboCider, if you fancy a… Read more »
@redlight “1. Clothing and Dressing well.” The clothes don’t make the man; the man makes the clothes. Aside from that, realize that clothes wear out over time. Nonetheless, purchase clothes as an investment. Some articles last longer than others (footwear, belts, watches, etc)—for those, buy shit that will still be in style 20 years hence. Not because it will still be in style 20 years hence, but because by such virtue it is the shit today, and will be the shit tomorrow. Females adorn themselves in herd-driven fads—don’t be female. They, being so close to that mindless mindset, recognize it… Read more »
In my opinion the last thing a man should ever do in the current climate is seek therapy, at this point it is dripping with the FI and basically a tool to keep men slaves to it. I’d go even farther and say that the modern therapeutic/psychological model is damaging to men in general. Modern psychotherapy uses female emotional and pyschological health as the healthy and correct response. But men have a much different set of emtional and psychological needs, and dealing with them from a feminine perspective is actually damaging to a mans mental/emotional health. Unless you are deep… Read more »
You seem pretty hopped up (like Minter, Glenn, ‘me’, et al). Totally understandable: the red pill is as bitter as it comes.
Maybe you could ease us in a little bit, as to where you’re coming from, so that we have some reference points upon which to filter your input? We’re all here for a reason, and understanding where one of the commenters is coming from can be very educational for all of us.
Or not, whatever works for you. Just extending the invitation. Pretty sure you won’t be judged, but rather empathized with. Anyway, your call.
@magnifiq- I have no problems at all with trying to express where I’m coming from, I’m just not sure what that would entail… so questions might be easier for me to get at what you’re looking for. As for me, I’m more than glad to be an open book- God knows the comments here, as much as Rollos writings, have really liberated me and changed my life. I’m also coming form the perspective of someone who was as blue pill as it gets, and I have no disastor stories for you guys- I have been mostly lucky with my interactions… Read more »
thanks for the answers, they were not my questions but ones from r/theredpill
I had a male therapist for a few months a decade ago and he was pretty much RP. He said I needed to be doing stuff, which worked, and women are emotional beings. Recently saw an excellent female therapist for grief counseling, and the advice is much the same! I was moping around at lunch today, reading comments here and there, and while reflection is useful, doing stuff is better therapy.
@Hobbes “In essence Not only was I blue pill, I felt bad for not being a “good” blue piller.” Yeah, that right there is the ultimate mind fuck. Anyway, thanks for sharing. I can now read your comments in a much more contextual light. I have no specific questions for you… just wanted to understand a little bit more about where you’re coming from… and now I do. Thanks. *** I’ve been reading the manosphere for many years now, and I ask the readership: How fucked up is it that we’ve allowed our world to arrive at this place? It… Read more »
@Hobbes “Modern psychotherapy uses female emotional and pyschological health as the healthy and correct response. But men have a much different set of emtional and psychological needs, and dealing with them from a feminine perspective is actually damaging to a mans mental/emotional health.” This is by and large a valid opinion, but I was extremely fortunate to find a counselor that when I came to a red pill view of things actually agreed with me. In fact, here was the hilarious part of our conversation about it: he not only agreed with but already knew everything I said to be… Read more »
Pop-psychologists, purple pill ‘life coaches’, psychotherapists and Church Pastors all know that Red Pill truths are bad for business.
What? ‘Truth’ bad for business? Lies and bullshit not profiting in this day and age? Pfft
Take your pills, Rollo.
There was an article I saw a long time back about how the psychological community only certifies therapists that follow a very specific line of thinking. Between reading that article at the time and thinking about his words just now in light of all Rollo’s writing has helped me put together, I finally get what the article was all about: a psychological professional realizing FI corruption’s control of who’s allowed to treat people and how they’re allowed to do it. He just didn’t put the blame there. I’ve been a big proponent of the importance of watching out for your… Read more »
@redlight- You don’t know how fortunate you are to find a red pill leaning therapist. I was never one for therapy, as I was mostly ok, but prone to depression.. the few times I was sent to a therapist or gave into pressure to see one,I was basically all but labeled as angry simply for- looking back- noting how little reality matched the BS I was supposed to believe. I even remember telling a therapist back i my 20s that I suspected that my caretaking of women, etc was a bad thing that turned them off and remember being encouraged… Read more »
Badpainter: “I’m curious how far the betas can be pushed. My guess is the sexual breaking point is far past the economic and political breaking points in aggregate.” BP, I’ve been pondering this as well and haven’t completely thought it thru yet but will throw out some ideas. My first big realization was what I now refer to as “the thirst”; that is millions upon millions – upwards of 80-90% of the male population being completely shut out of the SM. Not good and a huge factor. Second realization is that Faux Alphas are less productive the Women. They add… Read more »
“upwards of 80-90% of the male population being completely shut out of the SM” That can’t possibly be true Alphas can fuck whoever they want, so who don’t they fuck? It turns out a large percentage of the adult female population, including 5 or less any adult age, formerly 7 or less now 30+ who have had kids, are sagging, and gained 30+ pounds, formerly 9 or less who are now 40+, now have tits down to their waist, and all 50+ without extensive plastic surgery. That is a lot of unfuckable women, at least unfuckable by alpha. Don’t want… Read more »
I normally don’t like to be condescending or confrontational but redlight is such a fucking moron; an absolute complete dumb shit who shouldn’t even be opening his mouth .. so I’m breaking my rules. “redlight” what are you, like 12 years old? Here is a little advice and from some very good personal experience from someone old enough to be your mentor. Got that? A prenupt means squat; not worth the paper its printed on. I’ve heard that from so many dumb shits I can’t count them all and it still pisses me off. Wanna know what a “prenupt is… Read more »
@Rocket You’ve got a lot of unproductive anger, bro. Look, mate-poaching isn’t just for alphas. Of the chicks that have bailed on me for other dudes (5 of them, by my count) you wanna know how many left for what I would regard as alphas? Zero. I’m an engineer making over 100k/yr, IQ other of 150, and I’ve poached before. I’m spinning 4 plates right now, including a couple poached. Am I alpha? No. So much for that theory of ending poaching. The fact is if you’re with an attractive woman no man respects your relationship with her, alpha or… Read more »
really over the top of the person attacks, no surprise
the idea that the dna tests would be introduced in court is laughable, what the fuck were you thinking?
the prenup doesn’t protect the man, it reduces the chances that a GDW will marry him, read up on this
you completely miss the boat on the main points, since you decided to waste a zillion words on cherry picking. there are a zillion women who are unfuckable by alpha, why don’t you go fuck a bunch of them?
“So much for that theory of ending poaching”
that’s what I meant by
“Now it’s just musical beta chairs, keep putting money in the slut machine”
the alphas don’t poach these, while the betas keep having to change partners when the pussy dries up
“So much for that theory of ending poaching”
that’s what I meant by
“Now it’s just musical beta chairs, keep putting money in the slut machine”
“Faux Alphas are less productive the Women. They add absolutely no economic value at all.” Hip hip hooray, for he’s a jolly good fellow etc. Because feminism is a machine that runs on money, like a no-carburettor V12. Lots and lots of (other people’s) money. “Worse than women; at least women can provide and care for children.” only if somebody else is picking up the bills, and also “caring” for the children; see above. Alpha steals your wife? Ain’t “your” wife then, never was. Just breathe a sigh of relief and congratulate him. Finders-keepers old chap, best of British and… Read more »
You can’t be friends with a woman you haven’t fucked. Friends is a synonym for beta orbiter. A breakup for a man is when a supply of sex leaves. A breakup for a woman is when a supply of attention leaves.
Yep, men and women cannot be just friends. Don’t be surprised the woman leaves because you refuse to be an orbiter.
Their loss of an orbiter is a minor problem to them, make no mistake if the woman sets you as her friend you are worthless to her. Male to female friendship is quite limited that it can actually be considered a fraud. She can’t openly discuss her life or speak her mind as it would make her a total slut/c#nt. She has to put on a facade so the said friendship can work, and the same in most cases is true for the man as well. In short, if she loses an orbiter, a group of five are more than… Read more »
Wanted to follow up to my comments from last night; was kinda outta line and angry. My revulsion towards the Faux Alpha dudes we have to deal with should have been self evident from my posts. But you may be asking, Why ? Well, I think the thing that has convinced me how evil these people are is the material being published on the N Count (# sexual partners) and how that effects a woman; published at various places in Sphere. I know that historically men have valued Virginity over all other things (or at least a very low N… Read more »