The Myth of the ‘Good’ Guy

Janus

For as often as I’ve made my best attempts to define what I believe constitutes feminine Hypergamy on this blog, it seems that critics of the red pill, and even newer, well-meaning  red pill advocates, are beginning to think of Hypergamy as some convenient trope that manosphereans refer to when they want to explain away some annoyingly female trait.

Is she shit testing you? Must be Hypergamy. She broke a nail? Must be Hypergamy.

There is a very real want for understanding things in as simplistic a solution as possible, but feminine Hypergamy isn’t a dynamic that lends itself to a simple definitions. One of the reasons the early proponents of PUA ran into issues with legitimizing their ideas was due to so many of their ‘students’ seeking out easily digestible answers to solve their ‘girl problems’. As I laid out in Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite, these guys wanted the tl;dr (too long; didn’t read) footnote version of what to do in order to get to the silver bullet, magic formula part of the lesson to either get with their dream girl or “start fucking hot bitches”.

It is exactly this mentality that’s now causing such frustration in understanding Hypergamy and seeing how it works, not just in individual women’s personal decisions, but as a societally influencing force of the Feminine Imperative. Hypergamy is not a “math is hard” dynamic, but because it requires a comprehensive (and evolving) understanding it seems like the go-to throwaway answer to women’s behaviors and mental schemas to men (usually new to the red pill) without the patience to really invest themselves into grasping it.

I’ve defined Hypergamy so often on this blog that if you search the term “hypergamy” in Google, the Rational Male blog is the number two return below the wikipedia definition. As I write my way through the second volume of the Rational Male book I’ve found that a concise understanding of feminine Hypergamy is vital to grasping so much of the social and psychological dynamics that are a result of it. Every PUA technique, every common frustration MGTOW experience, and every gender-biased social injustice MRAs set themselves against, all find their roots in feminine Hypergamy, women’s pluralistic sexual strategy and the social and legal manifestation employed to ensure maximal feminine social primacy in optimizing Hypergamy.

Looks vs Character (Game)

Over the course of the past five or so posts, the topic of discussion in the comment threads has eventually found its way back to the basics of Looks versus Character (or Game, depending on your perspective of how learning affects character). Only discussions over what constitutes ‘Alpha’ in a man are so contentious as the importance women prioritize physical arousal in men.

I’ve already covered this debate and what I believe influences women’s arousal priorities in the Looks Count and Have A Look posts. My intent with today’s post isn’t to reheat these old debates, but rather to investigate a bit further into the connection between Hypergamy and this arousal prioritization.

First and foremost it’s important to understand the part that women’s biologies play in influencing Hypergamy and how women’s biology is more or less the point of origin for how they conduct their sexual strategy. To review, I’ll ask that readers refer to my post Your Friend Menstruation, but the basis of women’s sexual pluralism is found in the natural attraction predispositions that women experience as a result of (healthy) ovulation.

In her up cycle (proliferative) phase of ovulation, women are psychologically and behaviorally motivated to prioritize physical arousal above all other breeding considerations. In her down cycle (post-ovulation, luteal phase) women are similarly motivated to prioritize comfort, rapport, and long term security to ensure parental investment and benefit survival.

What I’ve described here, in as brief a fashion, is the foundation of Ovulatory Shift. There exists over a decade’s worth of experimental psychological and biological evidence supporting this theory. Due to biological and psychological influence, women become subliminally predisposed to behaviors which maximize fertility odds with the best available breeding opportunity, and maximize the best potential for long term provisioning and parental investment.

Whether this behavior is manifested in a preference for more masculinized male faces and body type, greater ornamentation and lower vocal intonation for women during ovulation, or a predisposition for more comforting, nurturing and supportive male characteristics during her luteal phase, the end result is optimizing Hypergamy, and ultimately reproduction.

For further reading on Ovulatory Shift, see the research of Martie Hasselton.

Arousal vs. Attraction

From last week’s post, in one of his less long-winded comments, commenter Siirtyrion inserted this bit of evolutionary truth:

Females only receive two quantities of evolutionary value from males – direct benefits (observed in long-term mating, with implications for the survival of offspring), and genetic benefits (observed through indications of physical attractiveness in her mate). And since females can receive genetic benefits outside of marriage (i.e. through casual sexual encounters), and no longer need rely upon mates for the survival of their offspring, there is no pressure for them to compromise on holding out for an unlikely (long-term) fantasy partner.

This current social pattern increases highly male variance in mating success, because female sexual choices always tend towards small male breeding populations (narrow range of male phenotypes), while male ‘preferences’ are inclusive of a broad range in female variance.

I believe one of the main contentions Siirtyrion kind of needles with this is that, as described, modern conveniences of female social empowerment (actual or imagined) discounts the need for hypergamic assurances of long term security. I’m not so willing to accept an overall disregard for the provisioning aspect (Beta Bucks) – you’re not going to reprogram millennia of psychologically evolved firmware overnight – but in discounting this need, the characteristics for which women would seek out a male exemplifying the best long-term security are deemphasized if not considered entirely.

If you read through any woman’s online dating profile you undoubtedly come across some variation of what Roissy has described as the “483 bullet point checklist” of stated prerequisites a man must possess in order for her to consider him a viable candidate for her intimacy. While I don’t think there are quite that many items on the checklist, you’ll find a host of common-theme personal qualities a guy has to have in order to be her boyfriend – confident (above all), humorous, kind, intelligent, creative, decisive, sensitive, respectful, spiritual, patient,..I could go on or you could just read this old joke.

The point is that all of these characteristics that women list as being ‘attractive’ have absolutely no bearing on how sexually, physically, ‘arousing’ a woman finds a man. As I’ve described in the past, while Game and personality can certainly accentuate arousal, all of these esoteric personal qualities have no intrinsic  “‘gina tingle” value if a man isn’t an arousal prospect to begin with.

The confusion that most Beta men make is presuming that what women list as being necessarily ‘attractive’ IS what makes him ‘arousing’. So when he models himself (often over the course of a lifetime) to personally identify with this checklist of attractive prerequisites he’s often frustrated and angered when all of that personal development makes for little difference when a woman opts to regularly fuck men of a better physical standard.

It’s duplicity of a sort, but it is also a strategy of deliberate confusion.

It may not be a woman’s conscious plan, but this deliberate confusion makes the best pragmatic sense to effect an optimized Hypergamy. Remember that Hypergamy is not just Alpha Fucks, it’s also Beta Bucks … if a bit delayed in her life in order to maximize Alpha Fucks. So when a woman describes what she finds “attractive” in a man this list will include all of the above bullet point characteristics because they “sound right” – because they shine her in the best light, yes, but also because in being so concerned she imputes the idea that she’s following the ‘right’ plan of looking for a good man to have a future with, and raise kids with.

Then and Now

This is going to sound like I’m glossing myself, but bear with me – I can remember how effortless sex used to be for me when I was in my 20’s. I had sex outdoors, in cars, hotel rooms, in hot tubs, in the steam room of an all women’s gym (after hours), I even got after it with a girlfriend in the balcony of a church in L.A. once (again after hours, no one around, only for convenience I assure you). Mostly I didn’t have a dime to my name, but I still had one of two fuck-buddies who would literally come to the bedroom window of my apartment to fuck me in the morning once or twice a week before I went off to the community college I was going to.

The point is there was no pretense of ‘attraction’ being anything other than a girl and I enjoying ourselves then. There was no ‘checklist’ of acceptable pre-qualifications for intimacy. The providership necessity that dictates a need for long-term consideration wasn’t even an afterthought; in other words, the Beta Bucks / Character / Integrity aspect of Hypergamy that women publicly claim is a dealbreaker for real intimacy was prioritized far below Alpha Fucks sexual urgency.

You can say these were just the types of girls I was getting with at the time, but courtesy of social media, I assure you, you would think these women would never have had that capacity now. They were all “sooo different when they were in college.”

It’s not until after a woman’s Epiphany Phase at around the time she becomes aware of her SMV decline that she begins to consider making that Beta Bucks checklist any kind of prerequisite for sex and intimate partnering. However, this epiphany isn’t the sudden revelation women would like men to believe it is.

For the life of me I can’t remember where I read the link, but I was reading a ‘Dear Abby’ sort of advice seeking article from a young girl (early 20’s) who was exasperated over finding the “perfect guy” only she couldn’t ‘get with him now‘. Her words were something like “He’s so great, awesome personality, funny, in love with me, supportive, etc., but I wish I could freeze him in time so he’d be the same guy and waiting for me when I turn 29 or 30.”

On some level of consciousness, like most women, she knows the dictates of what her own Hypergamy is predisposing her to. She knows she’ll eventually need that ‘perfect’ supportive, in-love guy to live out the long-term aspect of her Hypergamy with,…after she’s exhausted her short term breeding potential with men who better embody the Alpha Fucks dictates of her Hypergamy.

Arousal Preparation vs. Provisioning Preparation

For all of Siirtyrion’s vernacular, I will have to agree (to a point) that the balance between women’s short term breeding impulse and the long term provisioning needs Hypergamy predisposes them to now strongly favors the Alpha sex side of that optimization.

In Open Hypergamy I made a case for the aspect of an ‘old order’ of Beta Provisioning being a previously ‘attractive’ element for women’s determining long term suitability with a man, and that this old order was being replaced with other, extrinsic means of ensuring a woman’s security needs. Whether by social funding, or by indenturing men to provide for women’s wellbeing through other social conventions the effect is an imbalance between the dual nature of women’s sexual strategy.

However, I also feel it goes beyond just the social element now. Men are still confused by a feminine conditioning which wants to ‘freeze’ him in time in order to be the dutiful ‘perfect’ guy, ready to be thawed out and ready to serve the Feminine Imperative at a woman’s convenience.

While still convenient, men must be conditioned to confuse him that ‘attraction’ qualities are ‘arousal’ qualities in order to have him ready to be ‘perfect’ at his appointed time – and it is women who need to believe for themselves that this is what they think should be true.

The Myth of the ‘Good’ Guy

In the beginning of one of my earliest posts, Schedules of Mating, I briefly refer to the ideally balanced guy who would satisfy the optimization purpose of women’s Hypergamy:

There are methods and social contrivances women have used for centuries to ensure that the best male’s genes are selected and secured with the best male provisioning she’s capable of attracting. Ideally the best Man should exemplify both, but rarely do the two exist in the same male (particularly these days) so in the interest of achieving her biological imperative, and prompted by an innate need for security, the feminine as a whole had to develop social conventions and methodologies (which change as her environment and personal conditions do) to effect this.

There is a dichotomy that exists for men in this respect, which really has no parallel for women.

I am aware of certain (formerly red pill) bloggers who promote the archetype of a ‘Good’ guy as some role for men to ideally aspire to. The ‘Alpha Cad’ archetype must necessarily become the ‘douchebag’ caricature of an overtly distasteful masculinity (for men less able to embody it) and yet, the opposite caricature of the doormat, supplicating ‘Beta Dad’ is equally distasteful and certainly untenable when we consider that ‘attractive’ qualities are never ‘arousing’ qualities.

So the archetype of the ‘Good’ guy is offered up as some sort of livable, compromised ideal. If men could aspire to embody the best of the Alpha and temper that with what they define themselves as the best of the Beta, well then he’d be the ‘perfect’ catch for any woman of course.

The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.

It comes back to the Just Get It principle for women – any guy who needs to make a concerned effort to become what he expects women will want from him to be ‘the perfect guy’ doesn’t get it. They want Mr. Perfect because that is who he already is.

I mentioned above that there really is no parallel for this in women and I’m sure the Madonna / Whore dichotomy will be mentioned in the comments later, but allow me to point out that there is no concerted parallel social effort on the part of women in which women prompt each other to become a ‘Good Girl’ in order to satisfy the ideals of men. If anything a hostile opposite resistance to this is most true.

Women neither expect nor want a ‘Good Guy’ because he’s not believable, and his genuineness is always doubtable. That may sound jaded, but throw away any idea of being a ‘Good Guy’ balance of Alpha and Beta, because the Beta side of ‘good’ is so reinforced and common in men that it’s become the default template for women’s perception of you.

There is no Alpha with a side of Beta, there is only the man who’s genuine concern is first for himself, the man who prepares and provisions for himself, the man who maintains Frame to the point of arrogance because that’s who he is and what he genuinely merits. There is only the Man who improves his circumstance for his own benefit, and then, by association and merit, the benefit of those whom he loves and befriends.

That’s the Man who Just Gets It.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Siirtyrion
Siirtyrion
11 years ago

@Tilikum Fair to say that your guy friends are blowing you out, and its fucking up your frame maybe? I don’t like bringing up my own subjective experiences here because as I’ve stated before, they don’t apply to everyone. It is the objective data that truly lays the groundwork for why things are the way they are, which is why most of the material I write on here will remain objective in nature. But if you must know, most of my colleagues (I work in academia) share the same sentiments as me. And yes, I do consider them friends since… Read more »

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

“I mean that’s what you’re all here for — to boost your egos with the other losers.”

And you’re here for…?
That big ego boost you get from insulting participants in forums you disagree with?

D-Man
D-Man
11 years ago

Indeed Rollo, up to 4% of autosomal DNA (if you’re not pure Sub-Saharan African) looks to have come from H. Neanderthalensis. What’s more striking is that it’s not the SAME 1-4% in everyone. Researchers postulate that up to 20% of the entire Neanderthal genome is sprinkled throughout today’s population. We don’t all have the same fragments. And it appears that ancient H. Sapiens populations in Europe had higher proportions of Neanderthal: Otzi the Iceman, who lived in the Alps 5300 years ago, was over 5%. The main encounter appears to have occurred ~80-90kyA in the Middle East, after which the… Read more »

infinitemptiness
11 years ago

Liz — insulting women is the paradigm here. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it. I mean sniveling when the shoe is on the other foot is just so beta, right?

infinitemptiness
11 years ago

Oh and Liz … you just reinforced my point. You wrote : And you’re here for…? That big ego boost you get from insulting participants in forums you disagree with?” So are you saying only one opinion is welcome here? Or that I can’t reply in the vernacular used here? In other words, are you scared of other points of view? I’d say a great big YES from what I’ve read. [You could say that but you’d be wrong] So – I’m here cuz you little boys need me to tell you how to be men. You wouldn’t be here… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago

@Blind Lemon The problem with Athol’s rebrand is that there are far more “marriage counselors” “life-coaches” who’ve been marketing the same equalist-compromise product for much longer than he has. That kind of market saturation is going to be the end of MMSL. …and even marriage counselors with their doctorates in blue-pill gender relations still can’t come to terms with red pill realities: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/rediscovering-love/201408/why-great-husbands-are-being-abandoned-0 I am currently dealing with several of these great husbands. They are, across the board, respectful, quality, caring, devoted, cherishing, authentic, and supportive guys whose wives have left them for a different kind of man. These once-beloved… Read more »

infinitemptiness
11 years ago

Rollo wrote: “Translation: They don’t want to fuck them anymore.” True. But how about extending your thought process a bit further and ask WHY they don’t want to fuck their husbands any more. Or don’t you care? [I take it that it’s your practice to simply read through comment threads without actually having read the blog post?] If anyone cares then ask a woman who will tell you straight. Hint: it isn’t a woman who wants or needs something from you. Additional hint: you have to be ready to hear what she says. You men want to tell women what… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
11 years ago

By the way, this whole (lol) “Fappening” episode, the leak of celebrity nude selfies, might be deserving of a writeup. I feel bad for the victims and certainly do not condone the whole thing, but what’s interesting to me are the wider sociological messages that are being sent. Essentially, it appears to be about maximizing one gender’s sexual freedom while minimizing another’s, a theme you’ve touched on before. Powerful and famous dudes have been busted sending selfies, and they got skewered, ruined, and generally ridiculed. Nobody cried about their privacy having been violated. But for these women, the mystery of… Read more »

infinitemptiness
11 years ago

Rollo — you inserted a link into my post instead of responding to me like, might I say, a man?

Big-footing my post is exactly indicative of the mentality here. You work diligently to instill your readers with misogyny. Is that the point?

If it is then I’ll next your blog. No point throwing my pearls before swine.

D-Man
D-Man
11 years ago

Please do next us, infinite

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago

I see no reason in reiterating topics for a troll that I’ve already addressed in detail years before and my readership is already familiar with. I’m doing you the favor of linking them.

Go read dear.

LiveFearless
11 years ago

@George Numerous studies have proven that obesity is related to diet first, exercise second, and lastly genetic factors. Obesity due to genetics is almost exclusively related to serious malfunctions such as thyroid issues. Sugary, pasty, low nutritional value food is cheap and widely available today. Exactly! Being thin is something I do by choice. Every day it is a choice. It requires discipline and actual work. Plus, the ‘hit and run’ affected my sense of taste. What I consume is intentional. Each ingredient is meant to rebuild my body and mind. This is not about the evolution of genes where… Read more »

BuenaVista
BuenaVista
11 years ago

Infinitewhatever, writing a paper for her gender studies class at Sarah Lawrence (or is it Northern Virginia Community College?): Liz is a woman, not a man-boy with mommy issues as you suggest. Her man is a man who flies shit-hot pieces of metal, the selection process for which weeds out approximately 9,999/10,000 candidates. So be a good little girl and do some research before you go all ad hominem on the grown-ups, and start instructing them on how the world works. We’re the people who make gender studies departments a social luxury, a rounding error on any calculation of human… Read more »

infinitemptiness
11 years ago

I’m not a troll just because I don’t lick up your shit. I’m actually quite sincere. And I’m a woman willing to tell you woman-truth. But everything I’m seeing here is about vicious hate towards women and castrated self-pity for men. Women don’t want to fuck a guy who can’t convince her to fuck him. Now was that so hard to figure out? If you ain’t getting it guys, it’s cuz you ain’t closing the deal! I mean come on. Longwinded bullshit about evolution? Really? What if you’re a car salesman and you can’t sell any cars. You gonna whine… Read more »

infinitemptiness
11 years ago

Buena Vista — man or woman?

And since you want to school me, tell me how your success with your life and wo/men has improved since you’ve been here. Scoring lots more? Testimonials dude! Let’s have them. I mean bullshit walks, right?

BuenaVista
BuenaVista
11 years ago

You haven’t even read the comment thread to ask that question, dear. In my company you wouldn’t even get the interview, iow.

D-Man
D-Man
11 years ago

To further contrast the ridiculousness of the uproar over celebrity nude photo leaks, and how stark the contrast is in how the media treats the genders: Where have we seen, recently, truly abominable acts of violation and horror? The beheadings of journalists in the Middle East. And yet, the media does not hesisate to include in their coverage the notion that *they knew the risks* and *they knew what they were getting into*. Of course they did, they were intelligent and brave men with agency who died for a greater cause and should be remembered as heroes. But celebrity selfies?… Read more »

D-Man
D-Man
11 years ago

@infinitegapinghole,

Many of us have no problem getting laid, and are here to cultivate a more rational understanding of the world.

don’t kid yourself, you’re not blowing it apart, you’re reinforcing it.

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago

FWIW, infinitesadness is Guest on J4G:

http://www.justfourguys.com/epistle-to-evan-marc-katz/#comment-133833

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago

In case anyone had any doubt left about ovulatory shift in women’s mate preferences:

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/unify_uploads/files/Gildersleeve,%20Haselton,%20Fales%20(2014)%20reply%20to%20Wood%20et%20al.,%20Harris%20et%20al.%20psych%20bull%20.pdf

Last nail in the Aunt Giggles denial coffin.

Boom!

agent p
agent p
11 years ago

I will weigh in on the MMSL band wagon here. MMSL and Athol were my entry point into the red pill along with the Ian’s red pill room. I may as well have been at the dead bedrooms reddit and someone tipped me off the idea of outcome independence. within 48 hours I had consumed the Primer and was dieting, working out, on the MMSL forum etc. It took a while but it sure as shit worked for me and my rapidly declining marriage. Eventually I had to, for a number of reasons share the basics of RP thinking with… Read more »

Morpheus
11 years ago
Reply to  agent p

Agent P, It took a while but it sure as shit worked for me and my rapidly declining marriage. Eventually I had to, for a number of reasons share the basics of RP thinking with my wife, who found it to be awesome, she totally loved it. But being the curious chick she is, she insisted on ferreting out more knowledge and eventually found MMSL and my posts. KABOOM!!!! Given that I had trickle truthed her about a previous indiscretion what she found on the forums was problematic, so I had my ID scrubbed for a while I Alpha’d up… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago
Reply to  Morpheus

Observing the process will change that process.

Kate
Kate
11 years ago

(For clarification, the earlier Kate comment was written by Mark using my gravatar.)

@infinitemptiness: How did you find your way into the Manosphere? Its definitely a mixed bag of healthy and unhealthy people and messages. Good luck!

George
George
11 years ago

infinitemptiness- You have posted some very “spirited” responses here. Thanks for being honest. This is not an attack on you or a loaded question. Just about anyone reviewing this site will have strong emotional reactions to the subject and it’s analysis here. Both males and females are reacting to it with some insecurity and anger. You are undeniably upset as your responses reflect. This may require some thought and time and again this is not an attack or a loaded question. My question is – why specifically do you think you are upset. If all this is only looser bullshit… Read more »

Morpheus
11 years ago
Reply to  George

George, Good points. It really is a perplexing question. If the “manosphere” is really just a super small minority of loser, basement dwelling, small-dicked men, then why all the angst? Why come to blogs like Rational Male, and JFG just to tell us what small dicked losers we are? What’s the point? Why do so many other blogs spend so much time, energy, and words trying to refute the manosphere? The reason is we are starting to have an impact…the knowledge and views are starting to spread, because they are correct and work. I suspect for some this is terrifying… Read more »

agent p
agent p
11 years ago

@ Rollo, @Morpheus. Totally agree, that’s why I had kept the “source of my knowledge” under wraps for so long. I wanted to set about the change in myself on my terms, and I knew the minute she knew about it, it would be up for debate, negotiation, evaluation on her terms or those of the FI if I wasn’t careful about it. It was very much better when all she knew and experienced was simply my trajectory from AFC to that cool hawt somewhat reckless and powerful, enigmatic guy she married in the first place. I struggled greatly with… Read more »

Stingray
11 years ago

agent p,

Your wife’s situation is one of those times where the rationalization hamster can actually do some good.

agent p
agent p
11 years ago

@infinitemptiness you have lots of anger there, which is unfortunate, I hope you are able to come to terms with it so you can be a happier person some day. I think perhaps you need a little Yoda in your life, “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to hate, hate leads to anger, anger leads to suffering.” It’s unfortunate you choose to cast this “basement full of losers” as such. The things I have learned around here and in similar places have helped me restructure my life to great effect. It’s saved my marriage, made my… Read more »

Softek
Softek
11 years ago

Men are trying to improve their relationships with women without consulting women about it. That is the manosphere in a nutshell. Period.

In the minds of delusional people, this equals “manipulation.”

Max from Australia
Max from Australia
11 years ago

@Stuttie “the right Game, at the right time of the cycle”

hey this also applies to my “Break-up Game”

fuck the crap out of her when shes receptive to Alpha and then break-up with her when shes after provisioning.

“My Ex-wife just increased my Child Support payments to $204 per month”

Pussy => Snapped shut and GGONE !!

Honestly you could be a Millionaire but if a few hundred dollars a month are going to your Ex-wife the resentment will burn a hole in her amygdala (the Lizard Brain) like chinese water torture.

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

Kate: “(For clarification, the earlier Kate comment was written by Mark using my gravatar.)”

Was that the one about the (ostensible) inheritance of “bitch genes”?

stuttie
stuttie
11 years ago

@ infinitemptiness- please please please can you also add your ‘insightful’ commentary to our friends at the Chateau? Here is a link…

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/08/20/the-best-all-purpose-chat-reply-to-any-girls-obnoxious-question/

@ Rollo – funny stuff linking infinitemptiness’s vitriol to your previous posts. Hilarious…

heyjay
heyjay
11 years ago

I wanted to write how I just can’t understand these feminists and their hatred, but then realized I already know the answer. Most of them are plain ugly and don’t want their female competitors to be happy so they sabotage them. Think about cutting your hair short, for example. On the other hand they’re hating men as well because they can’t get the d they want so they project all their issues on them. Think about misogyny although it’s plain to see that they’re the ones who started to be misandric in the first place. I really enjoyed the previous… Read more »

deti
deti
11 years ago

“I believe for women knowing all the details of the process corrupts the perception of the end product.”

When women seek to know the details of the process, they attempt to change the less palatable parts of the process, substitute “kinder, gentler” processes, and engraft on additional filler (some of it superfluous, some of it downright harmful). They also deny all of the foregoing.

Stingray
11 years ago

they attempt to change the less palatable parts of the process

And are then infinitely frustrated that there are no Good Men when they succeed in this attempt.

deti
deti
11 years ago

It’s not that men don’t care what their women think/want. It’s that they care TOO MUCH about what their women think/want. It’s not that men aren’t ready to hear what women say. It’s that when it comes to sex, women don’t say what they mean nor mean what they say. They DO what they mean; and mean what they DO. Guys don’t convince girls to fuck them. Girls convince themselves into fucking particular guys. This applies to every girl I’ve ever known: she had her mind made up all on her own, and had her own reasons. Plus, a guy… Read more »

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

Deti: “When women seek to know the details of the process, they attempt to change the less palatable parts of the process, substitute “kinder, gentler” processes, and engraft on additional filler (some of it superfluous, some of it downright harmful). They also deny all of the foregoing.” I think you’re right above, but it goes a bit further than that when we’re speaking of relationships as compared to (say) a forum and its departure from the message. Here’s an example: I know there was a time when my husband couldn’t speak in public, and he was very shy. I only… Read more »

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

On the flip side, if my husband went back in a time machine and saw me sweating and unable to speak in public (I have a pretty vivid memory of having to get up and do an equation on the board in the ninth grade, I think I was visibly shaking). He’d think it was absolutely precious. It would not inhibit his desire…it might actually intrigue him and increase his desire.

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

Just thinking further…I actually do love looking at his baby pictures and pictures of him as a boy/home films so maybe the first bit isn’t true afterall. Hard to say.

Stingray
11 years ago

Liz, Now that your his wife though, and he’s proven to you, it makes sense that you would love to look at his baby pictures. It’s really funny that you wrote of baby pictures, because I was not 10 minutes ago thinking about how men hate when their moms pull out their baby pictures and possibly why. But it makes perfect sense that they would hate that precisely because it does show part of the process. It shows the very beginning of it and it shows weakness. Not only the weakness of baby, but the weakness presented by the mom… Read more »

deti
deti
11 years ago

Liz: The point is, it’s quite difficult for women to watch the process of a boy becoming a man. Speaking from personal experience, that process requires a breaking down, a separation from the “softer” sides of his nature, a break from his mother, and his venturing into the wilderness with his father and other trusted men. There, away from female eyes, he learns what he’s really made of. If he doesn’t have the “stuff”, then he is encouraged to keep going and learn it. He learns many things — his strengths, his limitations, his place in a hierarchy, the people… Read more »

deti
deti
11 years ago

And as I think about it more, with certain exceptions of course, what I just wrote above is why men and women can’t talk about intersexual relationships in a candid and explicit way. Men have to go through this, and they have to do it with other men or alone. A second thing is this – a large part of what you’re seeing in the manosphere is the work men have to do to become men. But instead of doing this in private, away from female eyes, they have to endure this process in full view of women who observe… Read more »

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

“A second thing is this – a large part of what you’re seeing in the manosphere is the work men have to do to become men. But instead of doing this in private, away from female eyes, they have to endure this process in full view of women who observe and sometimes participate. And their reactions range from curious to horrified. And that’s a reason why most women should simply be quarantined from the manosphere.” I think you’re right. I’ve considered this and it’s one reason I took a break for a couple of months a while back. I said… Read more »

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

And also…I love men, and masculine things.
Not in a creepy way, or in a butch way, but a genuine heartfelt way.
Anyway…Interesting discussion. Time to clean up the house and think about working out.
🙂

deti
deti
11 years ago

Liz:

The danger, of course, is men just talking about the process, and not actually going through the process and doing the work.

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago
Reply to  deti

Women are interested in their perceptions of men, not the process they use to create those perceptions. http://therationalmale.com/2012/05/23/perceptions/ Whether you’re Game-aware or not, every girl you engage with, whether a plate to spin or a monogamous potential mate, your role, your character, has all been crafted by the gestalt sum of the perceptions she’s built around you. Even from before the moment you approached her with romantic interest you’ve been progressively layered with her emotionally associative perceptions. Perhaps by friends, maybe social proof, or even pre-conditioned expectations (for better or worse) that she cast you into, your personality to her… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
11 years ago

You have to explain to me what perception of a man’s personality a woman assess to be ”decent” enough for her to bang him in the nightclub’s bathroom after talking to him for less than one minute. Personality means squat, sure she needs the guy to be a sucker if she wants to be in a relationship, but for bangs, most women don’t care about how she perceives him, or how other people perceive him, just as long as she’s aroused by him, and that’s when looks come into play. Personality does not make a woman sexually aroused. Game tricks… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
11 years ago

”A second thing is this – a large part of what you’re seeing in the manosphere is the work men have to do to become men. But instead of doing this in private, away from female eyes, they have to endure this process in full view of women who observe and sometimes participate. And their reactions range from curious to horrified. And that’s a reason why most women should simply be quarantined from the manosphere.” To be a man one only needs to be born with male genitalia. There are no ”male club” a man joins when he loses his… Read more »

orion
orion
11 years ago

“But that doesn’t fit your misogyny does it? Tell your mother how much you hate women, Rollo. As far as I can tell you need to get back to her tit and start over cuz you missed something there.” I told my mother what I thought of women, she replied that she did not like them much either. Of course, she cleaned pigsties from 4 years on up, in post war Europe, so her sense of entitlement is, well, it has been beaten out of her? By life, not this evil bastards endowed with a life penetration device. PS: You… Read more »

George
George
11 years ago

Quoting Rollo, “Whether you’re Game-aware or not, every girl you engage with, whether a plate to spin or a monogamous potential mate, your role, your character, has all been crafted by the gestalt sum of the perceptions she’s built around you. Even from before the moment you approached her with romantic interest you’ve been progressively layered with her emotionally associative perceptions. Perhaps by friends, maybe social proof, or even pre-conditioned expectations (for better or worse) that she cast you into, your personality to her is the sum total of a strata of emotional perception. Later into an LTR (or even… Read more »

George
George
11 years ago

Women do not seem to be capable of critical abstract thought. No woman has ever thought up anything like the general theory of relativity, the universal physical law of gravitation, how to measure the distance from the earth to the sun without going there, how to harness electromagnetism, on and on and on and on and on……

Men’s brains are larger and posses an average of 400 million more brain cells than women’s….yet men are labeled quite often as “Neanderthal”. We commonly hear “cave man” as a shaming insult. Perhaps “cave woman” is far more appropriate.

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago

Watch the video at the top of this post (and read the post too): http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/13/have-a-look/ A Look It’s important to have A Look. The basis of physical attraction is going to be conditional for any individual girl, but always bear in mind that A look is contextual. The archetypal “douchebag” with tats and an MMA appeal is a Look. Guyliner, black nail polish and Emo skinny jeans is a Look. The guy in a 3 piece Armani has a Look, and there are dozens more, but the point is that women are in fact like casting agents looking for the… Read more »

George
George
11 years ago

Especially perhaps because they are far more sexually motivated to mate with the more reckless “alpha” ape like male. However, no one can argue the superior power of the intelligent males brain and it’s ability to create life improving and life saving items as well as highly destructive life ending devices including the atomic bomb. It’s probably wise to avoid pissing off the really smart. I think it was Bill Gates who told a Harvard Graduating class during a commencement speech…”Be nice to nerds, you will be working for one”.

George
George
11 years ago

Or it could be that the actual ruling class is not that concerned with the breeding behavior of the underclass…

George
George
11 years ago

……but we are all human.

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago
George
George
11 years ago
George
George
11 years ago

The Double Edge

Which do we wear
A veil or a mask
From the womb
To the cask

Worn by fear
Or for Pride
Hence either
Will surely divide

For innocent
Protection
Or deceptive
Projection

If we choose
From which side
Of the truth
We do hide

Then truths
Incision
Reveals
The division

For upon the edge
Balance the scales
Of justice
Sorted with tales

Yet the blade
Never dulls
The bearer
Ever culls

The honest
To be
Forever
Set free

George
George
11 years ago

An oldie but a goodie…

Sir Walter Scott circa 1800 AD

“Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive”

George
George
11 years ago

“I am the captain of this ship and I have my wife’s permission to say so”

Would he say so without his wife’s permission?

Did the wife allow or concede permission?

Glenn
Glenn
11 years ago

Holy shit is this a great article and thread. I’ll just comment on my life, thinking and experiences. But first… @LivingFearless – You inspired me in a way that is hard to describe. I’m just starting a weight lifting program, and I’m dedicated to me in a way that is new, and at times actually uncomfortable. For me, overcoming the torpor, cynicism and the just giving up on my life after injury, sickness and career adversity and family insanity all came at me one after the other, has been nothing short of miraculous for me. I was beaten. It’s only… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
11 years ago

Nothing changed but my level of fitness.The best part of this for every man on this thread? We can all improve ourselves in many ways and can really do something about how we are positioned in this game. Some more than others, but if LiveFearlessly can do what he’s doing? Shame on any of us for being such fucking pussies that we won’t push ourselves 1/100th as hard as he must have had to.

F*cking right. Do it guys. Get cut and muscular = get sex. Its that easy!!

stuttie
stuttie
11 years ago

I’ve started taking a lot more notice lately of my mental state when I go through periods of non gym-activity. For 10 years I’ve worked out inconsistently – 3 months maniac intensive till I look and feel good – then 1-2 months of complacency / laziness (and alcohol); self sabotaging to the point I gain bodyfat, get depressed and have to force myself to start it all over again. A few things I’ve come to realise. 1. Regular workouts have positive effects for your mental state which is directly linked to your confidence. I can go from a very depressed… Read more »

Siirtyrion
Siirtyrion
11 years ago

The following post gets a bit more technical than all of my previous comments and it’s for good reason. For those not “scientifically inclined”, try to plow through and understand the beginning of my post. By the middle half towards the end of the post, it will all click and make sense to you. Sexual selection and sexual attraction seem be based on beauty rather than utility, and explains the common observation in nature that it is the most beautiful that survive (J Biosci. 2004). I’m going to try to explain this by also using the study above in many… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
11 years ago
Reply to  Siirtyrion

@ Siir – For the record, to me, this was one of your more cogent and accessible posts. But this isn’t an academic journal, it’s a place for guys to access non-pua/fucktard insight into intersexual dynamics, without the hatred of woman and not from the perspective of a loser in the mating game. As an aside, I believe this is what makes Rollo stand out from most purveyors of “game” – he’s not an angry loser who couldn’t get laid who turned dealing with that issue into a lifestyle. Given the above I have a few questions/comments. 1. First, you… Read more »

Kate
Kate
11 years ago

“However, faces that are above average in attractiveness are no more ‘‘fit’’ than those in the middle of the attractiveness.”

So, not every man needs to pair with a ten? And not every woman needs a millionaire? We can be happy with less????

😉

Nice comment.

Glenn
Glenn
11 years ago
Reply to  Kate

@ Kate – No, that’s not what he’s saying. He’s saying that the ‘beauty bias’ in mate selection has marginal or no payoffs in terms of fitness when above the median. Essentially, he’s saying that women’s sexual selection overemphasizes attractiveness wrt to optimizing genetic fitness in mate selection. None of that means that women “should” or even could be happy selecting less attractive mates, or that men would be either. The combination of environmental changes and runaway selection explains all this. And the bottom line for men? You can’t change your basic phenotype in some real ways, but the things… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
11 years ago

”Nothing changed but my level of fitness.The best part of this for every man on this thread? We can all improve ourselves in many ways and can really do something about how we are positioned in this game. Some more than others, but if LiveFearlessly can do what he’s doing? Shame on any of us for being such fucking pussies that we won’t push ourselves 1/100th as hard as he must have had to. F*cking right. Do it guys. Get cut and muscular = get sex. Its that easy!!” Not really. Them men who i witness getting the vast majority… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
11 years ago

”any man can be fit and muscular)” Sure, every guy can look like a member of the 300’s cast. No. Gym owners claim anyone can have a buff body, but the thing is that there are several types of builds and only one build(mesomoprh) can get muscled easily. You can use drugs but way to get, destroy your health for some pussy. Then we have the skinny guys who can’t get muscles to save their lives. Reminds me of what I see on reddit/redpill brah brah, get an haircut, shave your face, and lift heavy bra, all the girls will… Read more »

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
11 years ago

Rollo – “After reading articles like this from certified marriage counselors you’ll have to pardon my calling bullshit about any real need for more Beta sensitivity from men.”

Eggxactly!

John D
John D
11 years ago

This part right here: “So when a woman describes what she finds “attractive” in a man this list will include all of the above bullet point characteristics because they “sound right” – because they shine her in the best light” makes me think there is a definite tie-in to the “Nice Guys” TM snark definition feminists have of men who complain of being friend-zoned or who who complain of girls outright tricking the complainers into boyfriend level provisioning sans sex. My thinking is like this: these women (feminist and otherwise) are fucking the drama kings. When nice guys come along… Read more »

eon
eon
11 years ago

Siirtyrion, September 5th, 2014 at 3:37 am Excellent comment! Do you have any references that discuss the processes that identify and connect the deletion of genetic systems to the reproduction of symmetrical surface patterns? I have looked at processes from the perspective of Gerstein et al., “What is a gene, post-ENCODE – History and updated definition”, Genome Res. (2007), 17: 669-681. [ genome.cshlp[]org/content/17/6/669.full ] . “So maybe humans not only correctly utilize these cues when they are valid, but they also overgeneralize, utilizing these cues in the upper half of the distribution, where they are not valid. Therefore beauty preferences… Read more »

Siirtyrion
Siirtyrion
11 years ago

@Kate “However, faces that are above average in attractiveness are no more ‘‘fit’’ than those in the middle of the attractiveness.” So, not every man needs to pair with a ten? And not every woman needs a millionaire? We can be happy with less???? I said no such thing. What I’m saying has already been said by Glenn in his first paragraph, so refer to his comment. @Glenn But this isn’t an academic journal, it’s a place for guys to access non-pua/fucktard insight into intersexual dynamics, without the hatred of woman and not from the perspective of a loser in… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago
Reply to  Siirtyrion

The next time Aunt Giggles pops off about how AFBB is a red pill bubba meisah, I’m gonna cut & paste Siirtyrion into her Disqus comments.

LiveFearless
11 years ago

Prof. Von Hardwiggs writes Sure, every guy can look like a member of the 300’s cast. No. Gym owners claim anyone can have a buff body, but the thing is that there are several types of builds and only one build(mesomoprh) can get muscled easily. You can use drugs but way to get, destroy your health for some pussy. Then we have the skinny guys who can’t get muscles to save their lives. Actually, any guy that’s not completely paralyzed, or another severe extreme… can build a similar body. But … most guys aren’t willing to do the work which… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
11 years ago

@ Prof – I was going to respond at length but I’m headed to the gym, then out with some friends and then i’m rendezvousing with a 25 year old hottie who likes being a bad girl and having me be her secret bad habit. She actually likes dominating and teasing me – something I’ve never done but I say what the fuck? It’s a lot more fun than I thought – although I draw the line at denigration, and I always turn the tables at a certain point. The tussling and push/pull of it is crazily erotic. These younger… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago

@Siirtyrion, have a look at candidate #1

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/alpha-male-of-the-month-4/

Now answer me this, where is your God biology now?

Mwahahah!

LiveFearless
11 years ago

@Prof Von Hardwiggs the few buffed guys I’ve know so far Most of the people I know are people I chose to know that are not only in the top percent in lean muscle mass to body fat ratio, they’ve mastery in a variety of other stuff that makes them able to be so generous and successful, with peaceful lives most people wish for. Most of them have someone that sincerely loves him. The people I choose to know also have to find me someone they, too, can trust. It goes both ways. Nature is harsh. Healthy body fat/lean muscle… Read more »

FACELAW
FACELAW
11 years ago

Unfourtunately, the article writer does not talk about how a man’s FACE is almost 80-90% of a women’s sexual arousal. This means you are either born with it or not. Sure, you can get jacked.. but if you have an average face, attaining women will still be hard. Have a sexually attractive face = more women. If you have the height with this as well, its basically game over and you can fuck A SHIT ton of women.

FACE>>>>>Height>>>>>>body>>>>>>Everything else.

Nathan
Nathan
11 years ago

Rollo,

Common man.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/alpha-male-of-the-month-4/

You know that’s not for real/temporary

kfg
kfg
11 years ago

” . . .lingerie that she bought with Snoop Dogg . . .”

Layer.

Liz
Liz
11 years ago

Looks real to me. She seems an impressive, accomplished lady.

http://mindiekniss.com

FM
FM
11 years ago

I’ve been reading the OP–haven’t read all the comments. Sorry if I am reworking something already said.

But, it seems that this whole paradigm would not fit/have to be changed for Post-Menopausal women. Or, the paradigm is faulty because it cannot take account of what women are like in that phase of life. Thus, the theory or paradigm is not probative for women as a group, as it claims to be.

Now, my interest is not really academic. I live with a P-M woman. How is your Alpha/Beta, duality-in-hypergamy theory supposed to help me?

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago

Well it’s exactly the article I was referencing in this post, but it’s pretty close:

http://www.slate.com/articles/video/dear_prudence/2014/07/dear_prudence_video_finding_mr_right_too_soon.html

kkk
kkk
11 years ago

FM

“Now, my interest is not really academic. I live with a P-M woman. How is your Alpha/Beta, duality-in-hypergamy theory supposed to help me?”

At menopause, all elements of the theory remain valid. But the relative importance of each changes. A woman will still be receptive to a man’s physical conditioning, his game, and his provisioning – if only to keep him on the reservation. And if she is faking her desire, so what?

Soft dread is your friend.

A couple grows old at the same rate, so be thankful that you are slowing down too!

TinderMaster
TinderMaster
11 years ago

LOL at you guys actually thinking muscles can override height. Height is the number one trait that is the most attractive to women. if you don’t have it, you can forget about juicing yourself up. It’s primal for women to want and adore a much taller man. Have a look at this picture below: http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/19826/198267312d604121595102166300da9bb7545603.jpg You might say, “Oh, but that’s just one tinder slut! She doesn’t count!” LOL, there’s many of these girls on there who explicitly state to not even bother if you’re not X height and above. funny thing is it’s usually their first sentence on there… Read more »

FM
FM
11 years ago

Many thanks for this last reply. Could you explain a bit more? Hey, and what do you mean that *I* am slowing down! 🙂

Nathan
Nathan
11 years ago

“Height is the number one trait that is the most attractive to women.”

I agree. Height (and face to a great extent) is not changeable without plastic surgery for the face which I am wary to suggest. Muscles are changeable, but especially a low body fat percentage is VERY changable.

I think Facelaw has it correct.

FACE (1st)>>>>>Height>>>>>>body(cut, muscles)>>>>>>Everything else.

kkk
kkk
11 years ago
Promethean
Promethean
11 years ago

One of the absolute fundamentals that a man needs is VALUE. Game, in a way, is the effective application or leveraging of value. Red Pill thinking is the realistic and pragmatic philosphy of game and it’s application to a man’s life. The value of Value is that it leads to preselection. We all know where value comes from or what gives a man value. Looks/Physicality Masculinity Sexual prowess Sexual Market Value. Money/Job/The ability to earn and provide. Status Leadership Dominance Intelligence Confidence (which usually comes from having all the above in place.) One can “fake it until they make it”… Read more »

Promethean
Promethean
11 years ago

Correction on confidence. Not all of the above, but enough of the above.

Also, a man needs to be AWARE of his value.
It will often be questioned, challenged and attempts made to undermine it.

Glenn
Glenn
11 years ago

@ SiirTyrrion – First off, thanks for the thoughtful response to my comment and queries. I also should apologize for not expressing myself clearly. I have no problem with scientifically framed commentary and careful, well reasoned, evidence based exegeses of these topics. In fact, I really appreciate it. What I meant is you wrote in the style of an academic essay – when nobody else here does so. Interestingly, in some of your responses here you were much more conversational and less didactic – and much more effective. But I think the way I framed my comment seemed like I… Read more »

Professor Von Hardwiggs
Professor Von Hardwiggs
11 years ago

September 9th, 2014 at 3:40 am I don’t get it. In third world countries men sell themselves for a bucket of water. We in the western world have it made. Free clean water, great quality food(not my fault most men and women stuff themselves full), access to doctors, no threat of being mugged and raped if you don’t act stupid and amble to the seedy corner of your city. You don’t run the risk of getting your family murdered by the latest drug lord with dreams of becoming dicta.. I mean president. So why all that effort to put your… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
11 years ago

@ Ahh, Prof, you are a MGTOW, got it. ‘Nuf said. What are you doing on a game site then? I mean, you have no interest in getting laid or having any success with women – great, run along then, yeah? You think you are evolved but sadly, you are just another loser at the mating game who has given up. Here’s the truth. Half or more of the men born today are never going to get to pass on their biological material because the women in the world don’t find them worthy of fucking – for good or bad… Read more »

M3
M3
11 years ago

Rollo, slightly off topic, but i wonder what your take on this article is:

http://elitedaily.com/women/hot-girls-date-less-attractive/728378/

Rollo Tomassi
11 years ago
Reply to  M3

One word destroys her theory – Tinder

KeyserSoze
KeyserSoze
11 years ago

@Rollo: Love this one. Great stuff. Glad I’m not the only one who feels this way about MMSL. The “primer” was a good read when I didn’t know anything and really opened my eyes. Reading that book made me finally feel like I wasn’t crazy for feeling and thinking all the things I did about my broken marriage, but that’s where it ends. The Mindful Attraction Plan was the same book, just watered down and pussified. Initially, there was tons of insightful advice on the forum from guys that had their life together and knew what they were doing and… Read more »

KeyserSoze
KeyserSoze
11 years ago

@Siirtyrion: You said, “Many scientists still go by this notion because it explains the frequent tradeoffs in mating and gives us a more complete picture for sexual selection as a whole. I understand that I uphold physicality as king, but understand that hypergamy isn’t completely about a short-term mating strategy, regardless of what some people may think. Women may be able to fund their our lives currently but rest assure, they still seek out Beta Bucks in other forms aside from monetary or material gain (i.e they still seek out physiological and emotional comfort from less than ideal males).” Question… Read more »

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[…] circus, feeling the ball crushing truths of being forced to take the Red Pill, the Death of the Nice Guy, men observing the brain crunching illogical fallacy named ‘The Slutwalk‘ and men who […]

J.J.
J.J.
11 years ago

@ Glenn The concept of MGTOW has always existed… (it was just never referred to in any specific way) until one day – quite recently – some dude came up with this abbreviation called: “MGTOW” as if it’s something completely new… which “arrived from nowhere”, which has never existed. The (real) fact is that somewhere along the line (so called modern) men became (so) insecure (and) that they felt they HAD to prove themselves all the time by (feeling they have to be) chasing pussy 24/7 and then “sharing their experiences with other men”…. not unlike women… Real men just… Read more »

jf12
jf12
11 years ago

@M3 re: elitedaily article. Women wanna be forced to adore a man, making him alpha; women apparently really dislike being adored by men, who are necessarily betas because of their adoring the women.

jf12
jf12
11 years ago

The Balanced Good Guy is the current myth. The old myth of the Nice Guy, the guy that is truly nice and truly kind kind and truly provisioning and truly good in the Good Book sense, is still taking time to die, so over the past couple of generations, wherein it has become undeniable that women disdain Nice Guys, most counselors have been attempting to persuade women that what they really want is a Balanced Good Guy, who is only kinda Bad with a balance of Nice, is what they really ought to want. But women do NOT want a… Read more »

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[…] attraction that would be there is more along the lines of what Rollo Tomassi talked some about in this post: (note: I don’t understand a lot of what Rollo talks about in this post, as his writing is […]

Slothlemur
Slothlemur
11 years ago

So, did anyone find that Dear Abby article he mentioned in this post?

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[…] Rollo has a post up awhile ago entitled The Myth of the ‘Good Guy. […]

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[…] Rollo has a post up awhile ago entitled The Myth of the ‘Good Guy. […]

trackback
11 years ago

[…] mentioned this before in the Myth of the Good Guy. It’s amazing to me that men still seem to think they can embody the nobler aspects of both […]

trackback
11 years ago

[…] argued the position that women (of today) don’t find the ‘good guy‘ – a man attempting to embody the best aspects of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks – a […]

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