The Rational Process

 

One of the most vexing things a lot of Red Pill aware men encounter when they interact with women today is the expectation that women are coequally as rational agents as men. We were taught from the earliest ages by our blank-slate equalist teachers that boys and girls are all the same, having coequal potential for coequal successes in life (as they define them), then primarily focusing on the ‘correct’, female way of educating both sexes. This education isn’t limited to just the classroom; the Village uses many ways (media, pop culture, religion, etc.) to deliver what is fundamentally the same message – boys and girls, men and women, are essentially, effectively, the same with respect to their potentials. Now, that’s the message not the practice. Even when they are forced to recognize definitive differences they simply dismiss them by saying “We’re more alike than different” in the presumption that this should be enough to refocus and reinforce their blank-slate belief set.

So when men and women consider differences in gender, differences in double standards, inequalities in gender-specific issues and pretty much any empirical debate about these and other differences, men presume that the women they are ‘debating’ with are also looking for earnest, equitable answers beginning from the same coequal state of mutual interest. This is almost never the case.

The pretense that’s been embedded into men from the earliest years of their Blue Pill conditioning is since men and women are coequal agents they should both be interested in finding an objective truth together. But the frustration in this ‘debate’ comes from the simple fact that our differences are actually much more significant than the dismissals of equalists would want them to be. The roots of this deliberate misunderstanding are twofold: First, the innate solipsistic self-interest of women, and second, women’s predisposition to interpret information using the Emotional (versus Rational) interpretive processes.

When men and women debate intersexual issues of contention men opt for their innately preferred Rational interpretive process; we look for factual evidence to support a premise. Women opt for the Emotional process and then consider evidence. This difference in processing is where a lot of personal and ideological obstacles come into play between men and women. Our educational priorities of both men and women prioritizes the importance of emotion and its expression before a consideration of the Rational process. We teach boys/men to sublimate their natural proclivity towards reason by replacing it with the Emotional process. Thus, we’ve seen the push to encourage men to get in touch with their feelings or their feminine sides since the late 60s.

As I mentioned last week, women prioritize context (how a conversation makes them feel) in communication while men prioritize content (the information of the conversation); these differences are part of our biological/neurological evolved inheritances. This is where the misunderstanding starts between the sexes; however, calling this a ‘misunderstanding’ is a bit of a misnomer.

I’m sure a lot of readers think this is a longwinded way of saying women’s emotions blind them to the facts that men present to them when they debate. While this is true in a sense, this is shortsighted because, in the interests of simplifying things, most guys will just blow off the dynamics that build up this (often deliberate) miscommunication. Women don’t like the way a Rational-prioritized conversation makes them feel. Often the reality is unflattering to their solipsistically defined egos – but the communication feels wrong because women’s presumption is that men should just know to acknowledge their feelings in that debate (all communication really). On the female side the presumption is that men and women, being blank-slate equals, already know to prioritize the Emotional process, while on the male side men presume women will prioritize the Rational process because, again, we’re all the same, right?

This presuming that one sex sees the same way as the other is endemic in our time. I had a reader pose me with a similar example:

I had a conversation with my LTR at dinner tonight where I did a thought exercise with her. I asked her to imagine what it would be like if people visually saw different colors when they looked at various objects but had consistent names for those colors in their own minds. For example, person A sees what person B calls Blue, but it looks like what would be called green if person A could peer into person B’s mind. The point was we can’t know what colors actually look like from an individual subjective perspective. Although I tried several times to walk through this, she couldn’t comprehend what I was trying to explain. I then realized that this exercise involved imagining a first person conscious experience from multiple perspectives. This test could be a proxy test for (women’s) solipsism.

This thought experiment is a good way to illustrate solipsism in women, but it’s an even better example of the default presumptions men and women have of each other in other areas. As it stands today, in our feminine-primary social order, the Blue Pill conditions us to default to cognitive models that are defined by the female experience. Thus, whatever best satisfies a female-primary purpose is always considered the correct purpose. The way women think, the way women prioritize their Emotional interpretive process, is the right way for men to think – and the mutual presumption is that men already do (or should) think and process stimuli like women do. Anything else, anything that would recognize a difference in men from women, always feels wrong.

This default presumption of a female-correct way of interpreting and experiencing the world isn’t limited to our differences in communication. This misalignment of interpretive differences also extends to the false presumption that men and women approach the concept of love from a mutually understood perspective. Men love idealistically, women love opportunistically, yet men’s presumption is that both men and women approach love from the Disneyesque idealism they believe women are capable of. Men too believe that women see the same colors they do and have the same names for those colors. In this case those colors are the concepts and approaches women have towards love. I may write a new essay outlining this dynamic soon, but I’ve already written many prior posts on this experiential difference.

Rationalism vs. The Rational Process

As a result of pushing the Emotional process as the correct way of interpreting our world the Rational process necessarily gets demonized today. It feels wrong to a social order predicated on the Emotional process, so the truths that the Rational process reveals seem cruel, biased or vindictive when they refute the interpretations of the Emotional process. The importance of Emotion has been elevated above an interpretive process to where it’s now entered a metaphysical realm. This is where the Emotional process becomes Emotionalism. In the light of this, the Rational process is overshadowed and sublimated in importance. But the Rational process is what exposes emotionalism for what it is: Emotion is an evolved, biological interpretive process that serves our species well, but the feelings it generates are biological responses to environmental stimuli, not evidence of some higher consciousness or mythic existential importance that goes beyond anything in the physical realm.

The Rational process throws a cold bucket of truth on lofty emotionalism. As a result, and because emotionalism has been a basis of our social order for millennia now, the Rational process had to be debased in importance.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. – Proverbs 3:5

This scripture is an example of the conflict between emotionalism and the rationalism that popular social consciousness would like to apply to the Rational interpretive process. The Rational process is based in our collective and subjective intelligence. Healthy men and women both have the mental hardware to use the Rational process well, but where we differ is in our gendered mental firmware. When we collectively prefer one process to the other, this is where we decide which gender’s process will define our social order. In order for emotionalism to supersede rationality and ensure its preeminence appeals to the emotional above the rational have to be popularized.

If we could depend on an unbiased, unadulterated form of reason the Rational process would be a superior methodology. But as I stated before, rationalism is dependent on intelligence and that intelligence takes time. In some ways the Rational process is sensitive to both instinct and emotion, in other’s that reasoning is painfully, sometimes fatally slow. The world happens fast and vacillating in the reasoning process might easily kill an individual. Fortunately we have instinct and emotion to carry us through. The Rational process requires time because it requires learning, contemplation, theorizing and any number of high-order thinking processes to be effective. And even then, that effectiveness depends on reasoning’s accuracy. For the past three or four hundred years we’ve increasingly had the luxury to develop our Rational process, but for all the advancements it’s given us, when it comes to intersexual dynamics emotion is still the priority.

We have placed such importance on emotion at the expense of reason that we’ll risk personal safety in our ‘right’ to express it. No doubt most men are familiar with repressing their emotional responses, but it’s interesting to consider that even with this self-control and even with our innate predilection to process emotion differently than women, men are the ones accused of failing to be ‘in touch with their emotions’. On first glance Robert Greene’s quote here appears to be wisdom (I think it is) – self-control, mastery of one’s emotional state, is a virtue. Yet, in our emotional-primary social order we’ll hear women complain that men are less emotionally available. And this conflict illustrates again that whatever is expedient to the female imperative is what is to be considered ‘correct’ at that moment.

Empiric reason is the foundation of what humanity has made of itself. Setting aside emotionality and considering challenges in a Rational interpretive process is fundamental to understanding the emotional and instinctive process and their advantages and weaknesses. For the record it’s my belief that all of these interpretive processes in union are are necessary elements in the human experience, but my focus on these processes is to lay a foundation for a better understanding of them. It’s easy to get caught up in the demonization of the instinctual and the rational when the emotional is defining what’s bad or good for our collective experiences.

When I wrote Appeals to Reason I was exploring the futility of expecting women to transition into a logical reasoning of why she should logically be with a guy who was more than happy to embody all of the aspects she stated she wants in a man. The manosphere idiom is “no woman was ever reasoned or logicked into bed with a guy”, women don’t follow the Rational process when it comes to interrelating with men. It’s all Instinctual and Emotional, and usually in that order. A man might be able to use his rational facilities to better understand women’s evolved instinctual and emotional responses, and what prompts them, but reason itself isn’t the key to that interrelation.

Appealing to women’s logic and relying on deductive reasoning to sort it out is the calling card of a Beta mind. There is nothing more anti-seductive for women than appealing to her reason. Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women. It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.

If you’ve stuck with me to the end of this series I want to say thanks. I really felt that these interpretive processing models needed to be fully outlined as what I’ll get into in the coming months will need this as a basis for it.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

709 comments on “The Rational Process

  1. Women and statistics are a bad mix, as Rugby’s Pew Research clips demonstrate — especially when those stats are based on self-reporting by female respondents. The kind of “statistics” that measure vague feelings and imagined slights are what often passes today for news and analysis.

    So what you get all day is a bubbling reservoir of non-rationality. Of course, male reporters are also not so hot at seeing the fallacies behind the numbers they throw around — but in this feminized industry they wouldn’t get very far if they were.

  2. “I had a conversation with my LTR at dinner tonight where I did a thought exercise with her. I asked her to imagine what it would be like if people visually saw different colors when they looked at various objects but had consistent names for those colors in their own minds. For example, person A sees what person B calls Blue, but it looks like what would be called green if person A could peer into person B’s mind. The point was we can’t know what colors actually look like from an individual subjective perspective. Although I tried several times to walk through this, she couldn’t comprehend what I was trying to explain.”<

    I don't think this is an example of male versus female brain. It's easy for me to understand. Probably an individual thing and you're overthinking it.

  3. @Rollo

    Good timing for this post, so what would be the best way to handle a rational vs emotional debate/arguement in an LTR?

    The common thing I notice is during an argument when she is bringing up something insignificant that I have done and i call her out the bs it always ends in her saying something along he lines of “Well I’m just telling you how i feel”…lol. Or the “I’m your girl and I just want the emotional support”…

    I don’t know, I guess I’m just looking for practical ways on how amused mastery would look in this situation, something that can be used as a guide or framework like A&A for shit tests.

  4. … Of course, the major potential problem with “this default presumption of a female-correct way of interpreting and experiencing the world” is not crappy journalism but crappy science and engineering.

  5. Great stuff Rollo. I haven’t finished this last part yet, but I wanted to put this our there. Despite the typical gender preferences for rationality and emotional processes, those preferences are frequently reversed in practice when it comes to entering into and remaining in or leaving romantic relationships. This is demonstrated clearly by your maxim that “men are the true romantics pretending to be pragmatists and women are the true pragmatists pretending to be romantics.” Most of us have fallen victim to oneitus with a girl who we realize later, isn’t particularly special. Explain that rationally. You can’t because is pure emotion, mostly lust and fear. The only rationality in it is rationalization, where the little head tricks the big head into thinking it’s rational. Social conventions and conditioning help, but at the end of the day it’s prioritizing emotions over reason and attempting to rationalize it. In this area of life, men frequently find themselves operating in alien territory, their own emotions. I would argue that a lot of what you write is to help men get in touch with their emotions so they can even SEE the influence they are playing on their life and decisions already. Seeing and understanding and “getting in touch with” or what ever you want to call it, our emotions is the cure not the problem for many men. Seeing it and understanding it doesn’t, or doesn’t have to, equate to allowing emotions to drive our bus. It can allow us to realize emotions are already driving the bus and to toss the emotional process to the curb and let reason and our own pragmatism take the wheel.

  6. @Bromeo

    No one else is up I guess so I’ll take a stab, based on personal experience and a general reading of TRM advice…

    1) Do not “argue.” The less YOU say the better, but you do want to prompt her lightly to get it off her chest, let it all hang out, let her feed and exhaust her need for a little drama or until you perhaps learn that there’s something more serious on her mind. Listen calmly and politely, prompt with “I can see what you’re saying” or some such neutral place-holder to let her fully get it out. Keep it light on your end.

    2) Don’t bother “calling out her BS” — you’re either trying to use facts and logic, which will only fall on deaf ears or piss her off further, or worse you’re trying to show feelings, which will possibly reveal weakness and provide future raw material for her to manipulate you if she’s that type.. Don’t specifically refute any charge she might make. And for God’s sake never say anything yourself that might start an argument.

    She’ll eventually change the subject and her mood, or else you go back to whatever you were doing, or take the dog for a walk. Oh I almost forgot the make-up sex.

    In my house we do not argue (and I realize there’s a school of thought that arguing is beneficial but no thank you for me), After 30 years my LTR knows I’m a blank wall when confronted with drama and I know her no-go zones too. But there are times she needs to pop off about external problems and frustrations. Let it gush, open the spigot — but do not waste your breath by offering any simple rational solution.

    The blank-wall thing is a natural talent, but I wish I’d learned much earlier not to complain, not to whine and in general just keep my mouth shut at certain times.

  7. also, Rollo I know you got tangled of with a BPD girl years ago. A woman with BPD is the quintessential example emotions trump facts, and the emotional all all over the place day to day and sometimes even on a minute to minute basis. It’s a trial by fire if ever there was one. As socrates said “By All Means, Marry. If You Get a Good Wife, You’ll Become Happy; If You Get a Bad One, You’ll Become a Philosopher.” and he had a crazy one. This is a fantastic tour of emotions over reason: http://shrink4men.com/2011/08/29/welcome-to-the-land-of-emotional-reasoning-id-turn-back-if-i-were-you/

  8. It might be fun mocking women to “get more in touch with your rational side”…

    Rollo: “When we collectively prefer one process to the other, this is where we decide which gender’s process will define our social order.”

    While this line of reasoning seems plausible and it is probably convenient, I have some doubts about that causality. If you trace the origins of todays female primary order back through historical times, you’ll find it begins right with the Enlightenment.

  9. Rollo’s writing style is interesting in itself. You think any woman ever writes like this? Nope. This type of devil in the details analysis will make most women allergic.

    It’s gotten to the point where I can tell if a man or a woman writes it.

    W Anton, the author of ‘The Manual’ (it should be on the sidebar) mentions that whenever women say that men aren’t expressing their feelings (apart from the shit test version of it), it means they aren’t giving THEM the attractive feels – the feels that come only when they communicate masculine expression and not feminine displays of emotion. However, the inherent lack of precision in a woman’s analysis means any man hearing it is likely to totally mix up cause and effect.

    As an example, there was a post here about a guy telling his date why women make terrible team-mates in battle. TL:DR He went over to help the girl as she was hit and crying, ditching his buddy in the process and neither didn’t make it alive. For a few seconds there he just goes silent – stoicism. He doesn’t start bawling or all that sensitive BP stuff. But that stoic silence of his is far more powerful and communicates what’s needed (and makes her feel more). Men don’t have to do more because women are hardwired to read masculine expression.

    It is always better therefore for a man to come to his own understanding of psychology by observing what people say and then comparing it to what they actually do.

    Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus captured many of these differences from an LTR/marriage viewpoint, but it’s not as deep as where Rollo goes.

  10. @Rollo: the winner of this year Eurovision (which I didn’t watch) was basically #MeToo song from a singer that is clearly obese. Eurovision is mostly politics most years and this year wasn’t the exception as the winning music sucks, that just wasn’t the best song by far, but it won through the public vote. I actually think it is worth watching a little bit of the song so you get an idea of how bad it is (although maybe don’t waste your time with the full thing).

    Anyway my wife agreed the music sucks so I transitioned into talking about how authorities can make a public announcement about lowering your risk to theft by suggesting not displaying valuables or large amounts of cash in certain public spaces and it is common sense, but if they were to make an analogous announcement about lowering your risk of rape by suggesting not displaying your body in certain public spaces, the authorities would get quite the backlash for “victim blaming”. In fact this has happened in this past, here is a related example:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sussex-police-accused-of-victim-blaming-over-sexual-assault-prevention-campaign-poster-10162753.html

    Obviously I couldn’t convince her so I just dropped it with a smile on my lips. I think it is pretty much the same thing, but (she said it herself) the 2nd one makes her feel it is unfair because it isn’t equal between men and women. Rationally, the 1st one is already unfair, because I’m pretty certain women are more likely to be targeted for many types of theft than men, and will also will be showing more valuables in terms of jewelry etc.. But never mind that.

    Feels above reals… It still confuses me a bit that they apparently prefer to pretend reality isn’t what it is.

  11. The false narrative (“point deer, make horse”) of Marxist feminism is the propaganda that has generated the current state of intellectual genocide. This antiquated paradigm will be destroyed by the reactionary intellectual force it constellates.

  12. I don’t think this is an example of male versus female brain. It’s easy for me to understand. Probably an individual thing and you’re overthinking it.

    Your mind is hardly typical for females. You truly are a “speshul snowflake.” 😉

    Did you feel something just now? I just gave you a virtual internet grabass…I don’t think Mike will object somehow…

  13. The common thing I notice is during an argument…

    …and here is when you went wrong…in a real argument, where there is a real problem, like whether to spend money on a new appliance, a woman will be very logical…

    …in a shit test, a woman will argue emotionally…

    …when she is bringing up something insignificant that I have done…

    …this is a shit test…

    …i call her out the bs…

    …and here you respond rationally in an emotional situation, kind of like bringing a knife to a gunfight…

    …it always ends in her saying something along he lines of “Well I’m just telling you how i feel”…lol. Or the “I’m your girl and I just want the emotional support”…

    …and your girl is telling you quite correctly that you responded inappropriately…she must like you…a lot…

  14. “Your mind is hardly typical for females.”
    Thanks, Gamer…I would like to think so, but I don’t really think that’s the case here.
    I’m pretty sure I could bring up the subject of different color perception to 20 different females today, and at least half of them would know what I was talking about. Likewise, I could probably bring it up to some men and they would have no idea…and not because they are particularly feminine.
    It’s a human trait to view things from our own perspective/experiences. Scott Adams talks about those two different films everyone is viewing. I mentioned his work years back, before most people had heard of him outside of the Dilbert cartoon. I was scoffed at then. Different movie. Now I suspect he might be moderately insane, but still has a lot of interesting and relevant points about human perceptions.
    At any rate…only a few more months until I have posting freedom again. Retirement very soon…squeeeeee!!!

  15. @ bromeo

    As o.b.i.t. and ASD wrote.

    When she getting out of hand and you’re in a compromised location with no ready avenue if escape (driving the car, lying in bed), I’ve went nonsequitur game. She’ll be testing and I’ll calmly talk about something completely off the subject, she’ll try to refocus the conversation, I’ll talk a little more about something else unrelated and she’ll pick up that I’m changing the subject, she’ll say ”hey you…stop changing the subject”, laugh or generally go with the new subject or get frustrated In my meatheaded approach and give up.

    Anyways, you’re closer to peace without fixing her feelz or directly addressing it and you can remain tangential in your replies that she’ll respond to better.

    There’s value in being an oaf or dullwittedly cagey; you’re allowed not to have all the answers to her woman problems.

    @o.b.i.t.

    Are you recovering well from your accident?

  16. @Sri
    “It’s gotten to the point where I can tell if a man or a woman writes it.”
    The problem is that men are increasingly being conditioned to write like women (*in the female locker room of the media,” as you perfectly put it). It’s been a long, long time since I had a male editor on any project. Female editors flat-out admit they bring me in when something needs to be logically explained, but I still adopt my style accordingly for the wimmins.

    @asd
    “Like bringing a knife to a gunfight”
    Right, any emotionally fraught back-and-forth is playing on her home field. She’s got the skates laced up and you hop onto the rink in flip-flops. Good luck with that. And as Rollo is getting to, females now have the home-field advantage in many different settings.

    There do seem to be guys here who can deftly harness female emotions, like a hydroelectic power plant. So perhaps Bromeo will get some tips from them.

  17. I would say that Betas and Alphas see the same thing different eg: “man should treat women well” for Beta it could mean to do what she wants, for Alpha thinks to give her multiple orgasms and make her beg for more.
    Reframing things what we see and hear is the key to move from BP to RP

  18. “Alpha thinks to give her multiple orgasms and make her beg for more.”

    Alpha thinks to give himself multiple orgasms and make her beg for more.

  19. This is the part I didn’t see coming,the part that has saturated our input for what is socially acceptable or desirably effective behaviour.

    “This scripture is an example of the conflict between emotionalism and the rationalism that popular social consciousness would like to apply to the Rational interpretive process. The Rational process is based in our collective and subjective intelligence. Healthy men and women both have the mental hardware to use the Rational process well, but where we differ is in our gendered mental firmware. When we collectively prefer one process to the other, this is where we decide which gender’s process will define our social order. In order for emotionalism to supersede rationality and ensure its preeminence appeals to the emotional above the rational have to be popularized.”

    Pay attention young men, this knowledge will prevent much heartache.

  20. RON

    Don’t fall into the ” alpha is always sole!y about sex or conquest ” trap. It fosters real misunderstanding.

  21. Thanks for the tips and insights @OBIT, @theasdgamer, @ehintellect.

    Its definitely hard to validate the feels and listen to the hamster spew nonsense emoting, especially when its linked to something I have done that was randomly perceived to be taken so emotionally my her.

  22. Right, any emotionally fraught back-and-forth is playing on her home field.

    …which is fine…just play well and you both win…teasing…laughing at her silliness…flirting with her…swatting her butt…doing shit that annoys her and lubes her…make her squeal and giggle…smash her shit tests playfully…this requires work…all worthwhile things are hard…but you can also smash shit tests without saying anything…

    There do seem to be guys here who can deftly harness female emotions, like a hydroelectic power plant. So perhaps Bromeo will get some tips from them.

    yeah, where are those guys anyway?

  23. especially when its linked to something I have done that was randomly perceived to be taken so emotionally my her.

    you’re not quite seeing this correctly…she was feeling emotional and she just seized on something that she could use to explain her feeling…men fix things…she wants you to give her what she needs because of her feelz…pro tip: not a logical argument

  24. Right, when she’s like that it’s the equivalent of a guy doing a workout — she’s working out her emotional muscles to stay in shape and enjoy that rush. So you let her go with it, don’t shut her down but stay collected and keep it light on your end. If she’s really getting nasty, abusive and erratic that’s an entirely different matter.

  25. Bromeo

    “Good timing for this post, so what would be the best way to handle a rational vs emotional debate/arguement in an LTR?

    I don’t know, I guess I’m just looking for practical ways on how amused mastery would look in this situation, something that can be used as a guide or framework like A&A for shit tests.”

    Like OBIT and EhIntellect said: First be unemotional because that plays into her hand.

    This essay doesn’t give much practical advice, but it dissects her tactics well. Don’t fall for her tactics:

    https://illimitablemen.com/2014/03/09/how-women-argue/

  26. Like OBIT and EhIntellect said: First be unemotional because that plays into her hand.

    …for novices, this is a sound strategy…once you develop more skill, you avoid anger and engage humor…

    This essay doesn’t give much practical advice, but it dissects her tactics well. Don’t fall for her tactics:

    …or even worse, expect her to argue like a man…because she’s just a man with tits and a vaj…

    …her tactics…generally appropriate for an emotional engagement…

    paging Blax and HABD…

  27. Don’t fall into the ” alpha is always sole!y about sex or conquest ” trap. It fosters real misunderstanding.

    …that trap is just another version of “Game is only about pickup.”

    I got offered a job as a welder from a guy last Fri. night despite having no experience. Game.

  28. “Guys
    I have an opportunity to read in a better university than I’m reading in right now. But , I have a crush on a girl which preventing me from leaving here. She is signalling me green sign as well. What should I do?”

    Bang her, then leave.

    If she’s that “green”, she’ll follow you, not hold you back.

    Next

  29. I’m pretty sure I could bring up the subject of different color perception to 20 different females today, and at least half of them would know what I was talking about.

    Go try it and report back with your estimate of their IQs.

  30. Bromeo.

    If she ever complains that you’re not listening, I believe the mandatory reply is: “Huh? I wasn’t listening. I was staring at your tits.”

  31. @eh
    Thanks for asking about my recovery from that car wreck, because I credit TRM with helping me through it all.

    1) I was six months into a regular workout routine — inspired solely by the discussions on this board — that very possibly aided my ability to walk away from the wreck and physically manage from there on.

    2) A recurring theme here is emotional control, and so I was in a better mental frame to stay calm and positive, after the wreck and even as it was unfolding (which strangely seemed like forever).

    While I had a bad month or so with pulled back muscles and bruised ribs, sore knee etc, my LTR took it worse — it was her side of the car that guy hit when his SUV ran the light at full speed. She had cracked ribs and damage to existing back and neck problems and is having a harder time bouncing back.

    At least our big ol dog was not hurt, and the new car is nice.

    I originally mentioned the wreck during Rollo’s discussion on men suddenly being “zeroed out.” You never know where it might come from.

  32. Bromeo,first assume victory,then reframe the topic.

    Here is a visual aid.

    Arguing with the wife is like wrestling with a pig in a slime pool. First you will never win,second the pig enjoys it.

  33. @o.b.i.t.

    Good to hear it and for your woman too.

    “You never know where it might come from.”

    Or why. I was chatting with some guys about death and why we’re not I navel gaze too much about it all. It’s a exercise in vanity and always disappoints.

  34. “”This default presumption of a female-correct way of interpreting and experiencing the world isn’t limited to our differences in communication.””

    Whose frame is it anyway?

  35. Feminine behavior because their emotional states are easier to control in the long term. Female behavior may seem irratic and uncontrollable though the other side of the coin is submission…the stuff corporate empires and authoritative governments are made of…cheap labor and distracted citizens.

    Hence men too are trained and expected to behave as women. It’s easier to extract more value from men that they’d get otherwise. Corporate America detests RP.

  36. With all due respect, Rollo, you got that Bible passage wrong, which is unsurprising when taken out of context, as so many people like to do. It’s actually an admonishment not to trust your own perception(be it emotional or rational) but to seek God (i.e the Truth). It is tied to one important tenet of Christianity – that there is an objective truth, but we are incapable of knowing it wholly and correctly simply by our own devices. A few verses later than that quote, it states that wisdom and discernment are better than treasures, so the point is that our reason alone is good but not enough on its own, we must have faith and fear of God and through those test ourselves. Of course, the problem is that nowadays faith and spiritual life are equated with and/or subjugated to Emotion, as so many other things. Anyway, that would be the (Orthodox) Christian view.

    I find your theory of Emotion, Instinct and Reason eerily similar to the early Fathers understanding of the tripartite soul, which in itself builds on the Ancient Greek philosophers view – eros, thymos and logos. The Appetitive (desirous) aspect would correspond to Instinct, the Incensive – to Emotion and the Intelligent – to Rationality. I wonder if you’ve come across that understanding of human beings before or you have arrived at it independently.

  37. “It feels wrong to a social order predicated on the Emotional process, so the truths that the Rational process reveals seem cruel…”

    Reason need not be cold blooded.

    As xelamder described above, reason is as dangerous or more so than emotion when working with unknowns.

    There are things outside our collective knowledge. Staring into a personal abyss helps one realize we can’t know everything…so relax with what we can know.

    I leave the unknowable alone and enjoy the moment. It helps.

  38. “There are things outside our collective knowledge. Staring into a personal abyss helps one realize we can’t know everything…so relax with what we can know.

    From the OP:

    ….women don’t follow the Rational process when it comes to interrelating with men. It’s all Instinctual and Emotional, and usually in that order. A man might be able to use his rational facilities to better understand women’s evolved instinctual and emotional responses, and what prompts them, but reason itself isn’t the key to that interrelation.

    Because they have skin in the game. Eggs are expensive.

    From Nassim Taleb, Skin in the Game, check this out:

    https://medium.com/incerto/how-to-be-rational-about-rationality-432e96dd4d1a

    Survival comes first, truth, understanding, and science later

    Rationality is not what has conscious verbalistic explanatory factors; it is only what aids survival, avoids ruin.

    Judging people on their beliefs is not scientific

    There is no such thing as “rationality” of a belief, there is rationality of action

    The rationality of an action can only be judged by evolutionary considerations

    The axiom of revelation of preferences states the following: you will not have an idea about what people really think, what predicts people’s actions, merely by asking them –they themselves don’t know. What matters, in the end, is what they pay for goods, not what they say they “think” about them, or what are the reasons they give you or themselves for that. (Think about it: revelation of preferences is skin in the game). Even psychologists get it; in their experiments, their procedures require that actual dollars be spent for the test to be “scientific”. The subjects are given a monetary amount, and they watch how he or she formulates choices by spending them. However, a large share of psychologists fughedabout the point when they start bloviating about rationality. They revert to judging beliefs rather than action.

    For beliefs are … cheap talk. A foundational principle of decision theory (and one that is at the basis of neoclassical economics, rational choice, and similar disciplines) is that what goes on in the head of people isn’t the business of science. First, what they think may not be measurable enough to lend itself to some scientific investigation. Second, it is not testable. Finally, there may be some type of a translation mechanism too hard for us to understand, with distortions at the level of the process that are actually necessary for think to work.

    Actually, by a mechanism (more technically called the bias-variance tradeoff), you often get better results making some type of “errors”, as when you aim slightly away from the target when shooting. I have shown in Antifragile that making some types of errors is the most rational thing to do, as, when the errors are of little costs, it leads to gains and discoveries.

    This is why I have been against the State dictating to us what we “should” be doing: only evolution knows if the “wrong” thing is really wrong, provided there is skin in the game for that….

    ….Rationality is not what has conscious verbalistic explanatory factors; it is only what aids survival, avoids ruin.

    Rationality is risk management, period.

  39. Have any of you guys had a chance to check out Fastest Car on Netflix? In my opinion, it’s a perfect illustration life in a feminine primary culture.

    A show about amateur drag racing, and people who make a living building performance cars? Nope. It’s a show about determining who to root for, based on the most unfortunate event a participant has had to overcome. Whoever deserves the most sympathy, is the most deserving competitor.

    What offends me most is that the contestants are interviewed with the sole purpose of getting them to cry on camera. It’s disgusting. There was a time when TV would have had the common decency to edit out footage of a grown man in tears. Now it’s the emotional money shot. Disgusting.

    Gone are the days when men are given privacy in working out personal difficulties. It once was assumed that everyone suffers tragedies, and rather than dwell on those, you are to get on with life.

    Even our entertainment isn’t allowed to give us the satisfaction a rational process can provide. The only correct process is an emotional one.

  40. “Now it’s the emotional money shot. Disgusting.

    Gone are the days when men are given privacy in working out personal difficulties. It once was assumed that everyone suffers tragedies, and rather than dwell on those, you are to get on with life.

    Even our entertainment isn’t allowed to give us the satisfaction a rational process can provide. The only correct process is an emotional one.”

    That’s killing people from learning that its all workable in solitude and silence.

    Solitude and Silence

    “I leave the unknowable alone and enjoy the moment. It helps.”
    The leader of the tribe…

  41. women don’t follow the Rational process when it comes to interrelating with men

    Just minutes ago, Mrs. Gamer accused me of insecurity because I didn’t want to hold her purse while she was getting out of the car. I just laughed and told her that she shouldn’t bring the purse if she can’t carry it (this is an emotional, teasing response–of course I didn’t expect her to leave her purse at home). She tried that accusation a couple of more times and I just ignored it. Then she forgot about it and went back to being sweet. Another emotional shit test passed. 🙂

  42. Pairing this:

    reason is as dangerous or more so than emotion when working with unknowns

    With this:

    The things you know for sure that aren’t will fuck you up.

    Such as:

    “We know for sure that tonsils and adenoids are vestigial organs with no function…”

    …which gave us millions of unnecessary tonsillectomies and adenoidectomies and many upper respiratory tract infections because of missing tonsils and adenoids.

    Yes, Virginia, tonsils and adenoids have an immune function. But the theory needed for tonsils to be vestigial organs. As well as the thymus, appendix (which is a repository for fecal flora), etc., etc., etc.

  43. So, i’ve been text chatting with a young woman i recently met (and mentioned in a previous post) who i find very attractive. She’s a dark, Persian beauty. She’s currently in a deep emotional funk after recently being dumped by her high profile music producer boyfriend. As i live 6 hours away from her it’s a bit hard to see her personally and game her F2F which i’m good at (when i’m in the zone), so i have to rely on text game until i’m back in the big smoke. I made a music track for an upcoming stage show which i will be attending in a few weeks, so i decided to take a punt and invite her as my guest. She responded in the affirmative much to my delight. We then had a long-ish text chat last night with me mostly leading the conversation (I’ll post the whole chat in Field Reports for feedback from the masters), which i feel went reasonably well in the circumstances. Any time i text her she responds immediately. I know she is enjoying the attention from the ole FoX. Rather than acting all ZFG, i indulged her emotions and it seemed to work, with her responding with kisses etc before finally opening up and then asking me questions and leading the convo a bit. I’m very focused on not giving her reason to put me in the Beta emotional tampon friend-zone whilst giving her the opportunity to express her current heart-ache emotions. It’s a tricky balance running instinctual game. We shall see how things go when i take her out. Then it will be much easier to tease her and lay some of my smooth Silver FoX kino and charm on her. Sometimes us men just need to let their feminine emotions run without getting caught up in their dramas, or trying to be too Alpha tough-guy…

    But of course, gentlemen, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I’ve plenty of work to do before getting that opportunity, but the day is long and the FoX is patient… and has also ditched his “Solitary” mindset… Thx for the encouragement, brothers…

  44. @SSF

    I’m very focused on not giving her reason to put me in the Beta emotional tampon friend-zone whilst giving her the opportunity to express her current heart-ache emotions.

    Kind of like cooking that fried ice thingie.

  45. @asd

    Yes, i’m being very mindful of this. Giving her the opportunity to open up to me, but not pitying her or feeling sorry for her like a Beta would. Guiding the conversation to “I understand, but there are plenty of good men out there…” me, for example. Actually, there really aren’t plenty of good (real) men out there as we all know, and of course, being an attractive woman in her 30’s, she also knows that. But i know she has to come to this conclusion herself about me. So i’m giving her attention, but not too much. I’m DHV in small doses (she likes my music), but playing that side of me fairly cool, especially since her ex had a much higher profile than i currently have (soon to change). It’s a fine line and a delicate operation. I’m focusing on genuinely building rapport with her (because i do like her) whilst holding solid frame with a touch of aloofness and older man wisdom…

  46. With your mustache
    And your paycheck
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    And your limp dick
    With mouth full
    of the party line
    And your weekends
    working overtime

    Overtime

    Tech Boys

    Titilation
    We got an app for that
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    Desperation
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    Isolation
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    Intoxication
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  47. Ssfox

    “She’s a dark, Persian beauty.”

    Easy on the pedestalizing. You’re setting yourself up for you know what. No one here cares what race or hb# or whatever.

  48. @SSF

    Betas snipe…betas get Oneitis…and The Persian ™ will sense your Oneitis and wonder about you and your options…read Rollo’s chapters on Plate Theory…use Preselection…a lot…just like the other guys I fail to see why you are pedestalizing this girl and sniping…don’t you have other girls you are seeing?

    Be honest with yourself and check whether you might be rationalizing.

  49. @asd

    What do you mean by “sniping”?

    Maybe i am pedastalizing her physical beauty (as she’s my type), but she hasn’t shown me anywhere near enough of her personality or passion for me to be more deeply interested in her. I’m just giving her (and myself) a chance of hanging out together, and maybe something might develop. I have no idea what will happen at this stage, or what interest she has in me. Currently she’s still very wrapped up in the guy who dumped her. Yes, i can hear the warning bells, but i’m keeping an open mind with nothing really invested in her at this stage…

    As per my previous posts, i currently live remotely, so no, i don’t have other options that i’m interested in (A few that i’m not) at this stage. Well, one, perhaps, but i can’t invite them both to the same show…or maybe i should…

    @Eh

    Yes, i’m a romantic fool, always have been. Doing my best not to fall into the same old habits, which is why i bounce off y’all here…

  50. @Silver Fox. “Romantic fool”

    Easy on the rationalisation romantic fool is still hopeful beta blue pill mindset.

    The post is about rational thinking…the trap of hope, unicorns, “the one” has no place in a Red Pill mindset…shed that notion lest you start falling into the trap like an alcoholic thinking that if I take one drink and nurse it all night it won’t go back…

    Or allowing Rugby to fall back into his old ways…he knows better and is making an effort. Don’t trick yourself into thinking there’s some place for this old romantic gosh darn fool looking for lurv…

  51. Good points Wala. Though i’ve been quite a natural charmer over the years i still do harbour BP tendencies that no doubt have been to the detriment of past relationships and scoring even more pussy. I’ve never had much trouble getting women; keeping the ones i have wanted has always been my problem…

  52. I’ve never been that upfront bold, palma, though the drummer from a band of mine back in day always rolled like that. I have spun a few plates simultaneously back in the day, but then i had an abundance mentality and gave zero fucks. And it did work. I remember a trip home from playing a gig when i was being sucked off by my local plate in the back of the van whilst my new plate, who was sitting in the front, had her hand down my shirt stroking my chest none the wiser. The thought of doing it now makes me a bit nervous, but i like it. Still got a scarcity mentality when it comes to pussy. I know it goes against TRP way. I’ll also invite the German and see what she says… I just don’t feel like the prize at the mo. Just trying to get some skin back in the game…

  53. @ Palma

    ‘I wouldn’t even extend them the courtesy of a personal invite, I’d just say “a load of my friends are coming to the gig, come over and I’ll introduce you”…’

    That would be a good strategy if it wasn’t a ticketed event. I’ve got my +1 comp which i’ve invited the Persian with. Not sure if i want to set up that situation at that sort of event. A bit disrespectful of two women i do like. The other weekend when i was in town to play a set i had pussy everywhere. Three i’d previously banged who i could all bang again, and the German & her attractive g/f came upon my invite and paid their way in. I didn’t meet the Persian til the next morning. I was perfectly in my element that evening, though not as cocky as back in the day. I also get a bit toey before i play, so couldn’t zone in on the German as i would have liked to. But she did enjoy my set she told me before she left…I’ll try & see her whilst in town…

    I will do a FR on my text game with the Persian and see what you think…

  54. @ Palma

    Yes, courtesy is the word. I agree that respect must be earned. Men understand this but generally women do not. Most women now demand respect from men just because they have a vagina. And i do agree that neither of the options are entitled to anything apart from courtesy until they have earned it. Thanks for clarifying that for me. It’s given me a much clearer perspective. The fog is beginning to lift for the reborn FoX…

    ‘Toey’ is Aussie for a bit nervous…;-)

  55. Well, i’ve invited the Persian and will comp her a ticket as promised. I like to be a man of my word. She’s really just my date to an event i have skin in, so it’s a bit of me DHV, in my eyes at least. It’s not costing me anything. I’m going to be invited onto the stage after the sold-out show to be introduced as the musical genius i am. Heheh! This may or may not raise my status in my date’s eyes. That will play out as it will. I don’t think she’s currently hot for me as she’s still mourning her ex who dumped her, but i’m just taking the opportunity to be proactive, take her out and see how we click. I’ll soon know if it’s going to move forward or not. If not, i will have been paraded on stage in front of other women and who knows… I just can’t get too far ahead of myself at this stage. I’d rather attend an event with a good looking woman on my arm than go alone as i have been doing quite a bit recently. I’ll game her and she either responds or she doesn’t. So i’m going to see if i can take her from a 1 (which i think she currently is) to a 3… If not, i’ll cut her loose no bother and move onto the next option with a bit of practice under my belt…

  56. I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinions with me Palma. I do respect where you’re coming from…

    However, i’m not going to let her use me as an emotional tampon, and it’s not dangerous as i hardly know her. I haven’t invested anything in her yet. As i see it, i’m attracted to her, we’ve had some good flirting action when i met her, and i’m going to game her. If she doesn’t come to the party i’ll take the party elsewhere. I’m not a Beta chump with no experience with women. And i basically already have told her i’m dragging her out of her cave for a night, like you suggested. If the other girl does come then it will be double the fun as i’ll game them both and see who responds. I know it all sounds like i’m buffering or whatever, but as i look at it, i’m single, have been since October last year, so i have nothing to lose by taking a girl i’m attracted to out. I’m not dropping any money on her. I think that sometimes here we get so caught up in process that we don’t see the forest for the trees. I was a killer with women back in the day, years before TRP even existed. Now i find that i am second guessing myself because i have spent too much time alone and that i’m getting too caught up in RP theory etc…

    How do i preselect her?

  57. I just don’t feel like the prize at the mo.

    There’s that four letter word…”feel”, lol…you’re used to thinking with your feelings…time to get over that…make your feelings submit to you…which you do by action…then your feelings will fall in line

    To hone your view of yourself as the prize, focus on your advantages as a man over most women…

    Strength (2x as strong, for the average man, and even more if you lift)

    Intelligence (not necessarily academic–your intel is probably musical/social)

    Creativity

    Abllity to take risks

    These things make you seem like a demi-god to a woman…and you need to internalize this view of yourself…it takes work/persistence to internalize this view of yourself

  58. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus captured many of these differences from an LTR/marriage viewpoint, but it’s not as deep as where Rollo goes.

    I read this when it came out quite a while ago. He danced around the subject from a spectator’s viewpoint, seemingly afraid to look into the abyss…

    I don’t think this is an example of male versus female brain. It’s easy for me to understand. Probably an individual thing and you’re overthinking it.

    I was thinking about the passage describing the color thought experiment last night and wondered when a solipsistic viewpoint would come along. Funny how things work out.

  59. @ssfx

    “That would be a good strategy if it wasn’t a ticketed event.”

    Do yourself a favor and invite all the women you know.

    The moment you comped the girl a ticket you entered Beta zone. She hasn’t fucked you yet and you’re giving value away. All she has is sex to offer you. You are one of many on her radar…she’s not telling you what’s up…and her silence is rewarded with free ticket to music event.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if she flakes as she doesn’t need more provisioning, esp. from a needy aging rocker.

  60. Cheers asd

    Very good advice. As it is obvious to many of you following this thread, i am too caught up in feelings, which come easier to me than stoic rationality most of the time. I’m definitely the least Alpha of my gang. It is something i am struggling with currently, and have for most of my life. I have some sort of chemical imbalance which rises up and fucks me over whenever it decides to. But we are human after all, so feelings are quite natural, but i do get it, not to let them control me, even though i’m struggling at the moment. It’s one of the reasons i escaped society out here 13 years ago…

    “make your feelings submit to you…which you do by action…then your feelings will fall in line…”

    Yes, make my feelings submit to me. I’d never really thought of it that way. That is a very good new perspective for the FoX. I will definitely start working on that. I have been submitting to my feelings since i was 15 years old and it’s made me very miserable at times over the years. I need to get back into meditation and my spiritual practice. I found that helped with my mood swings.

    Your advice about honing my view as being the prize has also given me something to work on. I certainly believe in my talent, but as i haven’t has the success i covet, i have struggled with this lately. And i do know that coveting success or anything only creates more suffering, which i am a living example of. I’ve been in such fucking inner turmoil recently, racked with self doubt and lacking confidence with women that i am the one who can’t see the forest for the trees. I know this all takes work to turn around which is why i am here, bare bones and all…

    But if i have anything at all, it is persistence, and a willingness to listen and learn…

  61. @ Palma

    “To pre select her you’d have to spin it so she witnessed other women being interested in you…”

    Cheers man. Got it…

    We should chat outside this forum sometime…

  62. @SSF

    Am I missing something here?

    “Currently she’s still very wrapped up in the guy who dumped her. ”

    I see “wrapped up” as trying to figgure out what she did to scare the guy off before she was able to extract her full measure. Solipsistic at best.

    “I don’t think she’s currently hot for me as she’s still mourning her ex who dumped her,”

    Translates to, needs dick,misses dick,will study you to figgure out how to get what she wants…

  63. @ Eh

    “The moment you comped the girl a ticket you entered Beta zone. She hasn’t fucked you yet and you’re giving value away. All she has is sex to offer you. You are one of many on her radar…she’s not telling you what’s up…and her silence is rewarded with free ticket to music event.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if she flakes as she doesn’t need more provisioning, esp. from a needy aging rocker…”

    You guys are killing me. It’s a ticket i’ve been comped. It’s my +1. For my guest. What am i supposed to do, sell it to her? I thought i was adding value… Seems i’m damned if i do and damned if i don’t. I just invited the other girl i fancy, so will give an honest FR upon the culmination of The Mis-Adventures of the Beta Fox…

  64. Too much here to catch up on, but I caught the idea of how to argue or not argue with women from @Obit’s comments to @Bromeo. This is a great topic. Also the recounting of the story about the woman at dinner who couldn’t imagine the different colors with the same words, good stuff.

    First, the dinner convo. This is a common male mistake – the women wasn’t “different” intellectually/mentally, she was just dumber. What the commenter was setting was a classic abstract reasoning problem that it’s likely most people with under a 110 IQ couldn’t really figure out. Women are much more likely to be of average intelligence, while most smart men don’t really just how smart they are in comparison. You’ll get the same dumb look from that woman even trying to explain how an internal combustion engine works…

    Re: How to argue with women. The advice given by @Obit is what I call “first level” Red Pill. Yes, don’t take the bait. Don’t let her get you angry and then do stuff and say stuff you’ll regret. Control the frame – but also, don’t be a pussy. When I first developed some game skills I was like this, cautious and basically diffident to women’s shit tests etc. This alone is freeing, but over time you’ll find it invites female overreach.

    Now? I’m more direct and more critical than ever at times. I’m more over the top with my remonstrations and upset. You know why? Because by being calm and rational, I lose my power over her. But by using my emotions – including anger – wisely and without regret I have much more of an impact on a woman. She’s not really that upset by my anger if it’s properly calibrated, and what she’s looking for most of all is if I will be backed down. Once a woman figures out that can’t out-escalate me or guilt me into apologizing, the entire dynamic changes.

    In fact, an alpha man should be emotionally expressive to his women in a wise way. Dominance and aggression are very reassuring to women that you are still the “best” choice for them. It reaffirms and demonstrates your value. But if you regret or apologize or seem ashamed of your “outburst” – then you are toast. It’s a failed fitness test essentially.

    Be yourself. If you are going to read a woman the riot act – be serious about it. If you are going to tell her to ‘shut the fuck up or get out’ – mean it. Try out-escalating her without losing your cool too much. See how she reacts to your counter-escalations. See how she reacts when her shaming of your anger and aggression bounces off you, while you laugh at her.

    Men’s love is “rough”, we don’t express is the way women do either. But women will feel calmer and more content with a man who is rough. The guy who talks and negotiates them to death is the guy who is never quite good enough. And do you know why? Because the guy isn’t sure he’s good enough. This is the emotional context women are aware of…as sexual selection is truly a potentially life and death choice for them.

  65. Damn the pua’s for that phrase ” add value “. Now guys have another task added to a list to consider.

  66. @SSF

    Preselection is something women do when they show interest in alphas…the more women, the greater the Preselection.

    Don’t focus on your musical talent as your reason for success with women…focus on your inherent attributes as a man. You must see yourself as the prize even if you didn’t do any gigs.

  67. @SSF – Time to do the “takewaway”. Next time she brings up the ex tell her “that’s a real turnoff” and end the conversation. Don’t get in a fight. Don’t act buthurt, just realize that she’s not being what she needs to be for you.

    It’s a fitness test – a “shit test” in the vernacular – and you are failing. Any self-respecting man who wants to fuck a woman will not sit around while she laments for her ex cuz that means she ain’t gonna fuck me.

    Ask yourself this. Why are you settling for her breadcrumbs? Are you not a fucking gift for her? Is she not lucky to get your cock? Do you know how to make women come many times and how to fuck them into a daze? HB9 told me “you fucked me stupid” – and she’s had a lot of dick from young guys. Once you know this, you know you are “the prize”.

    Are you the prize? I think you are starting to get that age is not what you think it is. And that women can look right past it if it suits them. A big problem for most older men in game is there own view of themselves. Do you feel you are just as good a catch as you were at 30? If not why? And if so, well then make yourself a better catch.

    Fyi, love that you are a musician. Me too. Do you realize the incredible social status boost being a performing musician is? Are you really clear on how awesome you are?

    I’m super clear on how awesome I am. Even if it’s not so…Get this last part most. I’m always a work in process and always an amazing man. No matter what. If you hold this thought close, you will behave differently. You will telegraph different signals.

    Last. You have to have a different mindset though. When I first started ‘old man game’, I kept disqualifying myself cuz I could never be a real boyfriend or a potential husband to a 23yo. But then I really internalized game and female sexual selection and realized that female selection of an older lover (without provisioning) is purely about short term mating for the woman. You have to be her dirty little secret. You have keep her anonymity. And yes, sadly, you’ll be a dalliance for them. Even as you become very close and they open up to you in ways they likely don’t do with other men, they will still see you as transitional. This is hard to take for a traditionally romantic man, but once you accept it then you are well on your way.

    Put it this way. My appeal is the following. I’m cool, aging rock star type. I dress stylishly, but not trying too hard (my jeans are skinny but not that skinny if you know what I mean), I’m fit and fun and energetic and interested in the world. I’m engaged in my life, I have projects that consume me and a job worth doing. I’m worldly and smart – something most young women don’t get from the guys they see. I’m also all about sex. These women can be the filthy sluts they’ve always wanted to be with me. They try new stuff with me. I’ve been training the HB8 how to deep throat, she tries really hard and cries and gags – and then smiles at me and tells me she’ll do better, lol. Do you think some 20yo freshman gets the same treatment? I’m the experienced, dominating man she’s always wanted. She also knows this is all about sex for me too. Like I’m not trying to play them as a girlfriend. We meet at my place usually, and sure I’ll cook or play some music sometimes, it’s mostly just sex.

    You have to get clear what you are and who you are to these women. Also know that most women won’t opt in to you but it’s easy to tell when a woman does opt in. Just look for the interest and chase women who show interest. One concern I have about your story about he girl whining about her ex is that she isn’t showing much interest. I don’t spend time with women who aren’t really interested in me. And if you don’t have any women interested in you, well then become more interesting…Game, whatever.

  68. Fox

    Don’t sweat the ticket. Eh is right but it is a matter of degrees.

    Much more important is your frame in the lead up to the event, how you ranp up and sexualize and then how you act when in person.

    Sure it can be a huge beta misstep to invite her out and comp her etc. And id guys are being burned by beta stay away. But if you understand the rules, id you understand cat language, you have bigger windows.

    To me, having gone on lot’s of what we used to call “dates” in bygone times, the event/whatever was merely a pretext to get proximate. I always approached sex in these circumstances as a given. Wouldn’t ever even cross my mind that we wouldn’t be having some. A foregone conclusion because why else would we get together…? And I was never ever blown out. Never even trying or thinking about it at all.

    Like Javier Bardem in the scene below

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ih6Baoop5G4

    “we will drink good wine, make love”…

    I had to learn this from girls… Lol. Many times going to “study” or dinner or to a show with a girl, at her invite, me cluelessly thinking it was to study or eat or see a show and the girl escalating at the end of the night.

    She is up for it Fox. The question is still who you are? That is what you have to answer for her. Will you claim her, matter of factly? Or will you muddle along thinking you have to win her? Haven’t you won already? Don’t introduce doubt.

    It starts with where she is going to be staying when she visits… Of course in your bed is the only option. Don’t play it any other way Cowboy.

  69. With all you cool cats in my corner, how can i fail…

    Very funny coincidence for me in the clip you put up, Sentient…

  70. Ssfox…check this out: “In nature, we had to expend some energy to eat. Lions hunt to eat, they don’t eat their meal then hunt for pleasure. Giving people food before they expend energy would certainly confuse their signaling process.“

    If she’s interested in your engaging personality, looks, charisma, good. You do what you will with the ticket..but it’d be a great experiment how much energy you have to put into a relationship before you see bj one.

    I get your delimma, as all, AND I mean ALL, my “friends”, prereconstruction bailed immediately after I stopped handing out free time, talent and treasure. The clarity of those helped me see my value and how I’ve misstepped. I never really had much in common with them anyways, it was me lying to myself.

    The test of her interest is what she’ll do for free. Would she buy a ticket to your event independently? If not, why not? Honestly…that’s what we’re getting at here.

    The point of RP life is the world now should come to you on your “all I do benefits me first” terms. Thing is, people love a guy who knows what he’s about and serves himself first. That they can trust because on an unconscious level that’s what they’d do too but are too weak and fearful to ignore the BP static.

    For example, I rarely feed my woman food when we’re out and if I do it’s at the point she’s wobbly from hypoglycemia and activity and we’ve fucked once already that day. It’s not about cruelty (I know she likes the ends of the earth tipsy weariness) but about the natural order of things. That one meal we do eat after hours of waking and socializing and drinking and sex is about nourishment, not some cultural expectation we eat three squares and I pay for it all.

    If your gonna post certain things here guys will be compelled to ring the firebell if we see smoke. Nothing personal.

    About your ticket…I’d cold approach 5 girls today. The first girl that instadates to another venue for a drink and heavy petting gets the ticket. Make that ticket about you first, in everything.

    I’m interested what juice you’ll squeeze.

  71. @Silver Fox – First off, you are doing very well. You are light years ahead fo most older guys. A word about provisioning and advice from younger guys. Provisioning is not necessarily beta. Negotiating desire is beta. Thinking of provisioning as a way of getting laid is the issue. But comping her a ticket is easily also a high value demonstration. Fyi, in this stage of your seduction, you should be focusing on demonstrating high value. While I don’t have time to take it all apart, try the following:

    Text – Us old guys can fuck this up. Wait sometimes. Don’t respond quickly sometimes. But also don’t play too many games, as it can feel manipulative. Let her know what you are doing when she texts, let her see how vast and interesting your life is.

    Interest – I find the stage of determining my fitness is longer because I’m older. So the phase where they are interested and testing goes longer. It’s imperative you don’t seem too interested, or like you don’t have options. Interestingly, you’ll find that because these younger women are primarily interested in you for short term mating, they won’t freak out when you talk about other girls/women. Talk about your past, talk about your conquests, compare her to other girls you’ve known. All will telegraph your value and also let her know that you aren’t the lucky one in this equation…

    Closing – Assume the close. Fyi, she’s clearly interested. You can only fuck this up by being too interested yourself. Also realize that she’s not the only younger woman who will find you interesting. Don’t treat her like she’s special. Be nice to her, but behave as though fucking younger women for fun and sport is what you are about. Cuz that’s who she’s looking for. Don’t act like you want to be her boyfriend.

    Provisioning – Do not take care of her or offer to. Period. Now, over time you can soften when in a real relationship emerges. Example: I may lend my HB9 an old Subaru I have. She’s proved loyalty and our relationship is not about me paying for shit. She didn’t even think about it, I brought it up. I can and will help one of these younger women from time to time, in the right context. But I remember one of them reaching out to me from some town about 300 miles away. She was off with her girlfriends on some stupid adventure and they had literally run out of money and gas. She thought I’d wire her money, lol. I literally couldn’t process it. I was like, “Why are you calling me?” Fyi, I’d barely gotten to know this girl. I said, “Seems to me this is something you should ask from someone who knows you well. We barely know each other. This is weird. Good luck.” Lol. She got someone else to help her. But I also saw this as a signal of the end, like she’s just looking for some sucker. That ain’t me…And it should not be you.

  72. I’m also interested in what juice i’ll squeeze, Eh… If she’s not juicy, then i’ve failed and i’ll next her quick smart… I’m just getting my eye in after too long on the sidelines…

    It’s actually a new female friend’s (who wants to fuck me but i’m not that keen) show we’re going to. I just made the musical centrepiece of her show, so i got comp tix and i’ll be in the audience with the Persian unless she flakes. Whatever happens, it’s another life lesson and possibly a good experience. At this stage, i’m fucked if i know what might happen, but if i don’t have a crack then i’ll never know…

    I appreciate the feedback and don’t take any of it personally. I am a bit frustrated though. I’m posting this scenario to get such honest feedback which i’ll take on board. When i’m on song (as i will be again soon enough) with friends of mine i’m often the one dishing out the feedback. Swings and roundabouts, hey…

  73. Don’t worry, scribb, i ain’t no sucker and no provisioner. I can feel my mojo coming back…

    Good post, man…thanks

  74. “The post is about rational thinking…the trap of hope, unicorns, “the one” has no place in a Red Pill mindset…shed that notion lest you start falling into the trap like an alcoholic thinking that if I take one drink and nurse it all night it won’t go back…”

    is there a “the one”?

    of course not

    there are millions of them

    and hunting for “the next one” is so much fun

    i absolutely believe in “the next one”

    is that hope?

    if so, i’m an irrational hopeful red pilled unicorn hunter

    but is a unicorn really a unicorn if they’re everywhere?

    maybe unicorn really just means any hb8+ you can ride like a pony

    if that’s the case, then hope, unicorns and rational red pill thinking not only can coexist, they must coexist as the only way to hunt magical unicorns is with a totally rational red pill mindset

    unicorn slaying = alpha widow creation

    notch count important.

    alpha widow count also possibly important if you want to be able to catch free range unicorn and get it to clip its own wings for your benefit

    rational male superiority = being able to create the emotional roller coaster and totally ride it with her, while not getting lost in your own creation (like she does)

  75. Met Wolfe one afternoon in the Ritz Carlton bar in Buckhead. Replete in his whute get up. Gracious guy.

    Bonfire of the Vanities is a must read red pill book. Title says it all.

    A Man in Full an ok read… Another take on zeroing out and rising, in unexpected wayd.

  76. Should add Back to Blood, less interesting than Man in Full but awesome example of hypergamay from a woman’s PoV. Wolfe was totally red pill.

  77. “Wear your white suit today.”

    Took me a while to get that. Tom Wolfe died.

    I read a lot of his non-fiction. It changed and inspired me a couple decades ago. Hell I even read “I am Charlotte” (which was about hookup culture at college) as well as “Bonfire of the Vanities.” and “A Man in Full”. I even read The Kingdom of Speech last year and took a lot away from it in terms of evo psych red pill, even if he was just creating a tale that only Tom Wolfe could tell with a straight face. It was a fun romp, though. He was clever, very clever.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kingdom_of_Speech

  78. @Silver Fox: I think this whole discussion should have been in the FR section already but that is up to Rollo not me.

    Don’t fool yourself into thinking you aren’t invested in the Persian girl – whoever pointed out you are sniping (Palma and ASD) got it. It is not even the ticket, it is the time and effort you are putting here asking for advice. You know how I know? Because I’ve done exactly the same with two girls. So I’m clearly invested in them (maybe I shouldn’t, but at least I’m aware of it).

    Sentient in particular will know that, and Palma told me in RL the same he told you – I’m still fishing with a pole instead of a net, even if I’m getting better at it.

    Now this doesn’t mean you won’t get the lay – Scribblerg and Eh had good advice and Sentient was right on the money. Assume you will lay her and act like it is unavoidable and it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    If you hesitate and it doesn’t come to fruition because you misplay, just don’t mope about it and get another one. Channel your inner FoX that was receiving oral from one while the other one was petting your chest none the wiser. “Invite” the other women (German and friend) – you comp your “date”, the others you “invite” and they can come and pay for their ticket if they want to. Any ones that show up have just given you a good IOI and you will further DHV them by having some hot babe on your arm (even if she doesn’t put out, act like she will) and from your music. Maybe the Persian will just pet your chest, you can still get sucked by the German…

    And even if you don’t get any of them this time… There is next time.

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