As a few of my readers know my daughter is presently a sophomore at college. Every time she reaches a new milestone in her life I have a tendency to mentally go back in time in my own life and consider how utterly different her experiences are in comparison to my own. At 19 the thought of being as organized and honestly well off as she is in life now would never have occurred to me. For a very brief moment in my life back then I’d kept a journal of what it was I was doing and thinking at the time. My first ‘real’ girlfriend had given me this blank journal (she was one of those girls who wrote diaries) to write my thoughts in and being the Beta I was then most of it was filled with my Blue Pill frustration with girls. She’d gifted me this journal, I found out later, as an effort to absolve her of all the guilt she knew was coming her way for having cheated on me and deciding that, at 18 herself, she wanted to move on into her Party Years without the baggage of a dutiful Beta who thought he was going to marry her.
This was 1988 and the then 19 year old Rollo Tomassi was very much a typical Blue Pill Beta. I sometimes read back through the dozen or so pages I actually took the time to write back then to remind myself how I thought back then. I was very much and idealistic Beta back then, but I had several other friends who subscribed to the same Blue Pill delusions; and now with hindsight I realize this phase in a Beta’s life is one that was around long before and long after I went through it. This was the ‘Break Phase’ I outline in Preventive Medicine.
As it turned out, the girl who I predictably developed ONEitis for, the first girl to spread her legs for me (‘enthusiastically’), the girl I thought had to be “quality” if she appreciated a guy like me, was every bit the ‘play the field’ skank I would’ve never called her because it was what a “typical male” would say about her. At one point I had thought I’d want to marry her. My Blue Pill conditioning had taught me it would be the right, “supportive” thing to do; marry her and support her ambitions and goals (it’s what good Blue Pill boys ought to do) at the sacrifice of my own. And as directionless as I was then, that was an easy decision to make.
My daughter recently informed me that her boyfriend’s best friend just proposed to his girlfriend at 19. Both this guy and his girlfriend are also sophomores at the same school and this is what triggered the reminiscing for me. At 49, and having lived the life I have and the experiences I use on this blog today, I’m very glad my first girlfriend dumped me. That’s hard to say sometimes, particularly when I think back on the pit of misery years I spent with the BPD girlfriend I’d gotten involved with later, but I’m thankful for those bad experiences as much as the good ones. So, it’s really difficult for me to tell my daughter’s friend “oh, congratulations”.
It’s very difficult for me to endorse anyone getting married at so early an age these days or when I was 19. Modern marriage is a menagerie of horrors for today’s men. People say, “Rollo you’re married, how come you’re so hard on marriage?” It’s either that or they presume my marriage is a shit show and I’m venting like a petulant boy. When I’m critical of marriage it’s in spite of my own (very happy for 21 years) marriage. But I cannot condone it for men today – not in its present state. Hardline MGTOWs and PUAs agree on one thing, if you ever consider marriage you’re Blue Pill. I’ve written in many prior posts that I don’t necessarily agree with that assessment, but I do understand it. The risks today far outweigh the rewards, but still there are men who, even with Red Pill awareness, will still take it on.
There’s a running debate I have going on with Hunter Drew (The Family Alpha) and Tanner Guzy (Masculine Style) about how marriage is a lifestyle decision, and depending on how informed a man is about the risks he assumes and when he decides to get married, this decision is literally a question of life or death for that guy. Both these guys married early in life, both have kids, and both will have far different experiences than myself in this respect. Both of them and myself have assumed the risks and sacrifices this entails. I’m fully aware that my wife can detonate the marriage at any time. I’m sure both Hunter and Tanner are well aware that their wives also have the right to have them removed from their home and take their children away from them for any reason. But we’re all married, and as I wrote in Surrender, we have all willingly put ourselves in the most vulnerable position a man can be in; we’ve bet our lives, livelihoods and the future health and happiness of our kids and families on what today is the ultimate suckers bet for a man. And what’s worse, we cannot ever expect women or our wives to ever relate with just how dangerous a position we willingly put ourselves in.
So I’m thinking about all of this after my daughter tells me about this 19 year old kid proposing to his girlfriend. Statistically his marriage will end before he’s 28. I would also bet that, like myself at 19, he’s making a decision that will affect him and his fiancé’s based on Blue Pill idealism – an idealism that’s informed by the Feminine Imperative and delusions of egalitarian equalism. Naturally I can’t possibly think this is a good idea. If I were this boy’s father I’d strongly advise against it, but there are others in the manosphere who would encourage this.
“Grown” Men
There’s an old saying that goes “marriage is our last, best chance for growing up”. I also disagree with this from the perspective of today’s version of marriage, but I understand how homey platitudes like this are appealing to a social order of men who it seems don’t want to grow up. It’s becoming a new way of AMOGing (particularly in religious circles); if you’ve got your shit together enough to see the wisdom in being married and starting a family you’re a “better man” than the ‘boys’ who they believe want to extend their adolescence. It’s really nothing new.
According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.
This is one half of strategic pluralism theory for men. Men who invest themselves in the long term aspect will always look for ways to validate their inability or unwillingness to pursue multiple partners. It’s easy to think that these men make their necessity a virtue, and that may or may not be the case, but what’s undeniable is that investing themselves in a one-mate strategy necessarily selects them out of experiences with women that would otherwise aid them in vetting a woman as a good long term prospect. The Blue Pill has always subjugated men to be predisposed to the one-mate investment strategy while simultaneously encouraging women to adopt a multiple mate strategy. That may seem counterintuitive, but when we look at the Sheryl Sandberg plan for Hypergamy we can see that what they believe is prudence is having a large selection of potential husbands from which to choose.
In Trad-Con manosphere thinking it seems like conventional wisdom to encourage men and women to marry younger. Look at where we’re at today; women forestall marriage – ostensibly to further a career, but really to falsely extend their Hypergamous decision making years – until their Epiphany Phase (29-31) or even beyond by freezing their eggs. Men take much more time to mature into their peak SMV potential, but what’s the common complaint? These men aren’t “being men” by preparing themselves for a life of family and marriage. They aren’t catering their lives’ decisions to fulfill women’s sexual strategy, and really what incentive do they have to when women are following the Sandbergian path of Hypergamy? Men and women marry later and later – if at all. Women unmarried by the time they’re 34-35 are likely to never marry in their lives.
Marrying Early
So it seems like wisdom to tell this kid, “good on you”, in spite of all the odds staked against him and despite the Blue Pill idealistic delusions that are prompting him to propose. Trad-Cons love the idea of a return to something resembling “traditional values” in order to save western culture from itself, but it’s important to remember that those old books values are really just leverage in a new books world.
Marrying early, as I said, is usually the result of Blue Pill naiveté. Both young men and women are still ignorant of who they are or who they have a potential to become. I see a lot of early-marrieds originating in religious circles because this is their only means to “legitimate” sex, but there are the guys who see marrying early a better way to ensure ‘permanent’ sex for themselves. In some respects it’s almost a blessing that women at this age are so anti-marriage – most young men on the investment side of strategic pluralism are far too willing to kill their own dreams to accommodate their investment.
Marriages that begin between 20-24 are almost 39% more likely to end in divorce. A lot of this, I speculate, is due to women feeling like they need to make up for missing out. The idealism of young Blue Pill men marrying early has one big obstacle and that’s the influence of Hypergamy on their wives. In Preventive Medicine I made the case that no matter the woman’s choices she makes or has made for her in life, it will not negate Hypergamy’s influence on her. Yes, that influence can be mitigated culturally (laughable in western societies) or personally, but it doesn’t remove the evolved influence. By the time that 20 year old mother and wife is 30, she’s had ten years to develop the resentment of her choice by living vicariously through her single girlfriends’ experiences. The context may change, but Hypergamy doesn’t.
Early marriage limits a man’s potential. Trad-Cons will fight me on this one, but the responsibilities of marriage and parenting will necessarily limit a man from opportunities he would otherwise have were he single. Aristotle said, “The Ideal age for marriage in men is 35. The Ideal age for marriage in women is 18”, not unlike my sexual market value graph, but the reason for this is because it takes much longer for a man to establish himself as a man. The simple truth is that part of the sacrifice of being married means a man will not be able to capitalize on opportunities he would have were he single. Some opportunities may never even be made available to him because of him being married. This isn’t something most early-marrying men consider.
Men who marry early and stick it out through their peak SMV years often feel the mid-life crisis (epiphany) years much more acutely. This is kind of the man’s making up for missing out resentment a wife may feel as she becomes more and more aware that she can’t compete in the SMP for a better Hypergamous prospect. I don’t believe men have a “crisis” per se around this time, but what they do experience is a sense of introspection that’s colored by their now better capacity to understand the game they’ve been a part of with regards to women. When a man’s married well this is less of an issue, but there is a definite remorse over the “life he could’ve lived” if only he’d known better. This is an assessment of the sacrifices he’s made, how they paid off (if at all) and a sort of survey of his life up to that point.
The biggest ‘con’ to early marriage is that it’s always going to be a learn as you go prospect while trying to establish a world that a his wife of the future will want to defer herself to. This worked far better in a culture and time when women would be compelled to defer to a man’s mastery due to religion, social norms and respect. We do not live in those day anymore and women have actionable ‘outs’ of any commitment that doesn’t suit them, while men have more responsibilities to qualify themselves to suit women.
Advantages?
Early marriage has a few advantages, but all of these depend on the personal nature of the woman a man marries. That sounds kind of obvious, but if you go into a marriage with a solid Frame and a woman who expects to defer to your dominance, I think young marrieds might have a better shot at long term success. If a woman is a virgin, yes, this can be a real source of attachment for her if her husband imprints on her as solidly dominant Alpha. I always advise men not to get involved with a virgin girl if his only plan is to spin her as a plate. There is far too significant and imprinting with virgin women and sex with an Alpha man, or even a guy who seemed Alpha. This is the recipe for an Alpha Widow, but in a marriage it can make for a strong bond.
As has been mentioned countless times, the most stable and healthy way to raise children is in a committed marriage. This might be the only advantage marriage may have for a man today. In an early marriage I would think that a woman being at her sexual market value peak, combined with following her true biological clock (her prime fertility window 22-26) the odds of having happy healthy children are improved. I have a cousin who spent more than half his life building himself into a millionaire architect, but at my age (49) his children are 5 and 7. I can’t imagine living this life now. I suppose money might make it easier, but evolutionarily speaking he and I should effectively be grandfathers by now. I married at 28 and there are advantages and disadvantages to this as well, but I cannot imagine having young children at my age.
Finally, for the “well, duh” moment, it goes without saying that a young wife/mother should necessarily be playing on your team. The only possible successful prospect for a younger marriage to have any stability is if that woman understands what it is she’s sacrificing. Women likewise sacrifice their own personal potentials and later this becomes their source of resentment. The stakes are high for men, particularly if they aren’t Red Pill aware, but women too must understand her own sacrifices; I think this is the most difficult thing. Women’s solipsism, Hypergamous nature and a social order that ‘fempowers’ them to believe not only can they “have it all” but are entitled to it all makes this the bridge too far for young marriage.
In the Trad-Con sphere today there is a constant droning for personal responsibility on the part of men. There is little to none about the responsibilities of women. We’re constantly told that women are only the way they are because men have allowed it. I’ve written before that this is a cop out and an absolving of women’s complicity that mirrors what the Feminine Imperative has put forth. Women are taught not to do anything “for a man” and anything a woman does that might be expressly for a man is is conflated with subservience. Consequently we get generations of women who only indulge their natural solipsism and expect men’s sacrifices as part of the utilities. This is one of the primary reasons all marriages fail; there is no complementarity. Marriage becomes nothing but a naked exchange of resources on the part of the man and anything a woman might do ‘for’ him is frowned upon. And don’t think this is just limited to those blue haired feminists, you can find it at your church.
Women can only willingly want to please a man whose Frame is the dominant one. You’ve got to have that world established that she wants to enter and become a complementary, supportive (of you) and willing participant in. This world-building takes time. Women evolved to seek competency in men. Hypergamy cannot afford to bet all of a woman’s genetic legacy on a guy who has “potential” – they want the proven commodity. This is one reason women look for men older and taller than they are. More importantly, you need a woman who is playing on your team, not against you. And sadly this is the state of marriage promoted by the Feminine Imperative today. Egalitarianism doesn’t promote complementary cooperation, it promotes an adversarial state of competition between husband and wife.
@Blax One of the few things I ever strongly disagreed with yareally on, was his assertion that our daughters were destined to be giving blowjobs to random guys in club bathrooms. He didn’t believe in real father ability versus social conditioning. You have a few hours a day for the first 18 years of her life, society gets all the rest. I’ve seen a lot of “raised better” look “raised worse” really fast. That first year away from home is a motherfucker. I can see where YaReally’s point was; they’re still just women, and hypergamy will take the shape of… Read more »
I suppose ultimately what I’ve learned is the line between confidence and hubris is very easily missed, usually to the great detriment of the stepper.
It’s very difficult to raise any child by spending only a few hours a day with them/teaching the/raising them. And even then, what you actually do with the time you have will be crucial. Observation over decades puts the proof out there. I know a woman raising a son. He’s 5 now. I tell her all the time, with the intent of trying to get her to take her role as a parent more seriously, that there’s a prison cell out there with her son’s name on it, but she doesn’t understand my point, only being butthurt at the suggestion.… Read more »
Btw, I’ve seen murderers and rapists parents claim to the high heavens that they ” raised ” their kid better than that.
We tell our children (me and the mouse) do as I say not as I do. In the end they do as I do, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
If that single mom doesn’t like the name on the prison cell, she can look to her choice of father of her child, I know her son will. She can tell the boy everything right but example is everything.
Likewise the mother if she is good the daughters will likely be good.
Sun Wukong
February 10, 2018 at 12:54 PM
On what are you placing “Importance” in making your comment there?
And for what was YaReally arguing for in making his statements in regards to daughters?
@SJF On what are you placing “Importance” in making your comment there? I largely continue to disagree with the OMGs here on the subject of marriage and kids in the age of Overt Hypergamy and wish anyone else who disagrees to know that this is not an echo chamber. And for what was YaReally arguing for in making his statements in regards to daughters? Far be it from me to put words in another man’s mouth, but if I had to guess I’d say he was reacting to the same hubris and condescension I’ve observer repeatedly from OMGs on this… Read more »
I for one don’t want my daughters married to any blue pill egalitarian pussies.
The chances of any of them finding a man that can keep up with me are slim to none.
@ Sun Lol, not looking to argue or rehash old stuff, but you can’t just discount what the guys, omg or not, that are having successes say wholesale. Dudes actually raising families do have insights. I first heard the term ” larping ” here, so how would a guy observing something from a distance and with malice and bias and all manner of presumption, have more gravitas than those actually doing that thing hands on? Hubris? Really? @ SJF we ran into the brick wall of disbelief and angry fear of the unknown before. Boogie women and men under beds… Read more »
Sun
Lot a feels there.
“I realize the general explicitly spoken line is “most dudes shouldn’t get married and have kids”, but there’s always an implied “because they can’t alpha up enough”. ”
Your against marraige full stop right? And the reason is?
And yeah, most guys can’t muster the requirements ( male requirements ) to do a lot of things, and families are just another on the list. It’s not a dig. If it weren’t true then Rollo wouldn’t have readership. Guys wouldn’t have epiphanies.
Blue pill says pick and choose the truths that make your feelz good, attack what doesn’t fit a personal narrative.
OK. I’m done, as to not revisit the shit show because as we’ve already seen, there’s not point in arguing with those with no experience in what you’re arguing about. Fan boys aside.
@ sentient
I don’t believe in asparagus. I find it abhorrent, and it holds no value for me. Yet I understand that my distaste is only relevant to me overall, and I don’t go around talking shit about those who like consuming it, nor do I want to slap the offending veggie out of peoples hands.
Do what you want to do. Don’t do what you don’t want to do.
@Sentient Ah the old “you’re engaged in feels before realz” mode of ad hominem, establishing that there’s no possible way my argument could come from an intellectual stance before even hearing it. Bad form unless you like your conversations catty. This is why the discussion can’t happen. It does not happen in good faith. It just starts as a shit show. @Blax It’s not a discussion I wish to pursue any further either. This board has proven unable to keep it productive, instead doing exactly what Sentient just attempted to do. Color me unimpressed. I only wish to put it… Read more »
Sun
That’s ghey. I expect more from you.
Don’t duck.
Stand by your position.
You are a Never Get Married guy right?
Why?
@Sentient
Give it a rest. If you care that much about my arguments I’m sure they’re somewhere in the old threads where you were just as catty. Dig them up and enjoy. They remain basically the same along with the conclusions. I’ve heard and seen nothing to change them in the time since.
Young folks or any getting married have much to learn, Even Blax is learning in his marriage, it’s a given. You tie two people of opposing sexes together for a three legged sack race together,they just learn shit from each other. The trouble is when they have the blue pill mindset there are actual blocks to this learning that are insurmountable, how can either understand the other with an egalitarian or even worse blank slate equalist mindset. In this case one or the other or both are going to be miserable. life is to short,so ya if you want to… Read more »
The reason I posed the question is because it is not paradoxical to have OMG’s posit that somebody is placing too much importance on certain things and then accusing OMG’s of advocating for something specific and concrete (rather than in the abstract). Something that is not true. We’ve had references experiences in which raising children showed us that if along the way we had doubt and fear of proceeding forth and making decisions for ourselves and for others, we would be quaking in our boots at times and be indecisive about which path to take. To think this is about… Read more »
Two observations that seem to disprove your hypergamy theory: 1. Warren Buffetts first wife left him – for some artsy extra-maternal inseminations. Buffett proved that he was a supercompetent male, and had highest social status as one of the richest men in the world, and vast amounts of social proof of the most supreme kind – from upper/ruling class. 2. Steve Jobs wife got herself a male bimbo sex toy after Jobs’ death. Hypergamy theory would predict she would try to obtain another billionaire or other kind of “leader of men” – instead, she got a dumb, low-class, handsome young… Read more »
@KORT
Just because you’re the ultimate BB does not mean you provide all a woman needs in the realm of AF.
@ Sun I wasn’t calling you a fan boy. I was referring to the last big discussion that broached marriage and children ( 2 things ya had absolutely nonreal experience in ), and how no matter what ya said, there were a hard core group of guys that seconded every word he typed, no matter what evidence to the contrary a dozen guys typed back in response. Lol, ya said he was tired of fighting 10 guys on the site. Now why was that? 10 guys. In the end he even said Rollo turned on him ( untrue, but ya… Read more »
@Blax
Gotcha.
Quack quack it is then Sun.
Kort, let’s suppose for a moment that inspite of all evidence to the contrary you have a valid point.
/əˈnäməlē/
something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.
“there are a number of anomalies in the present system”
synonyms: oddity, peculiarity, abnormality, irregularity, inconsistency, incongruity, aberration, quirk, rarity
In an innocent teenage scientific voice, behind a green curtain:
In my best Cathy Newman voice: “So what you are saying is that in order for a praxeology to be robust, it needs to be deterministic, not probabilistic?”
GTFOH. Or understand what going on in this kitchen a bit better.
“Buffett proved that he was a supercompetent male, and had highest social status . . .” How many Conan the Bean Hoarder stories are there? “Steve Jobs wife got herself a male bimbo sex toy after Jobs’ death. Hypergamy theory would predict . . .” “I may be wrong (and overlook something), but as far as I understand your model cannot explain the two examples above.” What you seem to have overlooked, oddly enough, is the model. It is as if you read the word “hypergamy” and assumed a model from it. Have you read the Best of Links yet?… Read more »
I know this little redhead anomaly, she was married to this alpha dude they built a vacation home together. Her mom died and they went back home to take care of business, some thing happened ? in her home town that caused him to come unglued and break her nose with the accompanying black eyes and fat lips,in the hotel room. She came back but that state kept him for awhile never saw him again. Next thing you know she hooks up with this beta dude, he sets up a frisbee golf course and is a real bitch whiner to… Read more »
“One man can only do so much against the whole of society which has explicitly set itself in opposition to him. ” You work from where you are. You do the best you can and than some. You push yourself in the direction of a question, The most you can hope for is that the question being asked can create an income to support yourself in the world you are living in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U1ZGjMKD50 “You get to choose. You have free will. With that comes having to making choices. Sitting by and not choosing is not masculine and not a strategy.”… Read more »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGrhpxJoarY&feature=youtu.be
https://www.amazon.com/Gendernomics-Black-Label-Logic-ebook/dp/B06XDTF4HK
https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-vXiSrVKID8X2y4pD/Joseph%20W%20South,%20David%20Clare%20&%20Franco%20-%20Practical%20Female%20Psychology%20for%20the%20Practical%20Man_djvu.txt
@Rollo Nothing unusual in the live feed Youtube with 21 Studios for us red pill junkies. Thank Anthony for putting that on. It was a fun time. Rian Stone is fun. Erudite Black Label Logic is an entertaining intellect with a shit ton of perspective. This is what Red Pill collaborative masculinity looks like. Having mentors and having a a band of brothers in a meritocracy (a tribe– of any size) is an awesome way to live. Having red pill friends to collaborate with, for those watching at home, is in my experience a Superpower. Try this at home. It… Read more »
@Sentient
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/997/799/7f3.jpg
I got better things to do than worry about impressing you.
@SJF To think this is about advocating for marriage and having children only if married, or having children at all in a Red Pill paradigm is really quite quite disingenuous as to be a straw-man. If you recall, the original discussion way back when was guys like me searching for an alternative to marriage where we would still have commitment. No alternatives were proposed. The only solution given came across to me as “Just alpha up and take the bad deal or are you some kind of beta?” hence the perception that it was an advocating of marriage as the… Read more »
100% rolled gold, Alpha… Al Bundy
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-01-04/maybe-sex-robots-will-make-men-not-women-obsolete
…apart from working in the shoe shop…
@Sun Wukong: “No alternatives were proposed.” The whole thing took off because I proposed an alternative, in practical detail. YaReally got all exited about it, but then tried to extend the alternative to having kids. I pointed out that the alternative breaks down when you have kids (because having kids automagically enrolls you in the system the alternative seeks to avoid). And that’s when YaReally stopped listening to people who actually had experience in what they were talking about, refused to accept the realities of the sitution, the OMGs stepped in to back the fact that kids change everything .… Read more »
Sun
“an alternative to marriage where we would still have commitment. No alternatives were proposed. The only solution given came across to me as “Just alpha up ”
If you think you are going to get committed commitment without alphaing up… You are going to be just as disappointed.
It’s hilarious on a RP blog that “guys” are so uncomfortable when Alpha comes up…
But suspend reality and think you are going to spin dimes or get committed behavior from single girls when you aren’t living up to your end of the bargain.
Sun, I don’t know if my story helps. The choice I made was having a child and not getting married. There’s a slew of reasons both reasonable and not for not getting married. This was pre-TRM, and before I really understood my own capacities to be a father and a partner. Not only did I not vet my partner well, I realize now my poor choice was because I did not vet MYSELF well. You seem way ahead of the curve in my estimation by asking all the right questions, or at least questions I didn’t consider a decade ago.… Read more »
Steve Jobs wife got herself a male bimbo sex toy after Jobs’ death. Hypergamy theory would predict she would try to obtain another billionaire or other kind of “leader of men” – instead, she got a dumb, low-class, handsome young sex toy. Lolwut? Theory would predict that since she is financially set like almost no other woman in the world is that hypergamy would select for specimens presenting alpha genes. In other words, the theory *perfectly* predicts her behavior — she has no need for any beta whatsoever, she has need for alpha only, genetically, which is what she has… Read more »
“If you recall, the original discussion way back when was guys like me searching for an alternative to marriage where we would still have commitment. No alternatives were proposed. Yes. No alternatives were proposed because no concrete alternatives existed. Mother nature is a bitch. Degenerating society sucks. What was proposed was suck it up buttercup and do the best you can with what playing cards you have. “The only solution given came across to me as “Just alpha up and take the bad deal or are you some kind of beta?” hence the perception that it was an advocating of… Read more »
@Sentient
“Just saying ‘Alpha up and do the traditional marriage’ is not a good solution.”
“So you’re saying you won’t alpha up?”
Way to Cathy Newman that one. Try again.
@kfg
It must be acknowledged that “alternative to marriage” would include kids in some way. Otherwise it’s hardly an alternative, no? Granted I see your point, but I honestly can’t call it an alternative if it doesn’t solve that problem as well.
lol at “Conan the Bean Hoarder”
Sun
Look you’re the one that has problems with Alpha, don’t drag her into it.
Why don’t you think Alpha is a solution? Evidence is all around. Red Pill + Alpha are the answer to hypergamy.
Not to “beat” it… To fulfil it.
@SJF
Oh I know it’s my choice no matter what. But if I decided to walk up and punch a cop in the dick unprovoked because there’s this guy I know that got away with it, it wouldn’t make me any less an idiot knowing all the problems it can and most likely will cause.
“alternative to marriage” would include kids in some way. Otherwise it’s hardly an alternative, no? Granted I see your point, but I honestly can’t call it an alternative if it doesn’t solve that problem as well.” This brings up some questions. Do you mind if they aren’t your kids? What if she gets pregnant again ? Who’s kid is this one? If they are your kids, what happens when she hyperg’s up? Does an LTR require commitment at all? Can you find one that meets enough of your criteria to even suggest mutual commitment? Have you tried it and been… Read more »
FAOD (not that it will be a surprise to any regulars), I was, and remain 100% a YaReally fanboy. The guy was amazing and changed many lives, including mine. That said, being a fanboy doesn’t mean I have to agree 100% with every single thing he said. In particular, I think HABD’s post about how if you want children you are better off being married (essentially because it brings you into the system as kfg said above, and once you are in the system you need the status of being married or you will have even more limited rights to… Read more »
No alternatives were proposed. Because there aren’t any. I mean you can try BD’s multiple OLTR deal if you can swing it, but if you are alpha enough to swing that (and it takes silverback alpha to do it really), you can swing a marriage, and a marriage will always be more stable for the kids, which is really the *only* reason any man should ever get married (unless he is religious, but that isn’t the scope here). There are other “options”, but they don’t get you anything approaching the kind of stability obtainable in a marriage where you keep… Read more »
“Child rearing is the scariest thing ever. But moving forward, so is fucking everything else. Where do you draw the line on scary?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-YXvvt4UaU
Sun Wukong
https://knowndonorregistry.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/therealkdr/
Et tu Culum?
“but nobody actually answered YaReally’s questions about why marriage (other than the kids angle) was a good thing. ”
This was answered then amd to Rob on this thread. Because he wants to.
Yareally, and many others apparently, could not accept this as an answer in and of itself.
Kept circling back to “no benefit and legal risk” bullshit.
And then to calling out Alpha.
Lol.
From shortcomings ye are known.
Nova
“I mean you can try BD’s multiple OLTR deal if you can swing it, but if you are alpha enough to swing that (and it takes silverback alpha to do it really), you can swing a marriage, ”
Exactly… They all think they can do this mLTR however you want to arrange the alphabet as a matter of course.
Yet it takes apex game or massive Alpha amd likely both in reality.
@Sentient
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/272/923/18b.jpg
Do you not get that upping the alpha is a planned part of my self improvement no matter what? Are you just trolling or actually that obtuse?
If you think you are going to get committed commitment without alphaing up… You are going to be just as disappointed. It’s hilarious on a RP blog that “guys” are so uncomfortable when Alpha comes up… But suspend reality and think you are going to spin dimes or get committed behavior from single girls when you aren’t living up to your end of the bargain. That’s not him sticking you with a shiv, Sun. That’s him whittling a little pointy wooden stick and poking you with it in order to get you to not have so much in the way… Read more »
Maybe Fleezer, who is married and has no kids, can chime in.
…. What if I punched a cop in his dick, and then shot him in the face when the ramifications started to materialize? What if… A cop was just a man with a gun and a badge and the weight of law behind him? Would he be any less dead? Lol, just a thought exercise. There are usually multiple ways to handle problems once that pesky fear thing is eliminated. Depends on just how badly you want to do a thing. Impossible is nothing. ” smart ” is another matter.😀 Last time I checked, divorce rates slipped below 50%. Sure,… Read more »
Sentient
February 10, 2018 at 6:08 pm
If she doesn’t have One-itis for you it likely will not work long term. Alpha is not enough. You also have to get lucky. And one way to get lucky is just to run through a lot of them.
“It must be acknowledged that “alternative to marriage” would include kids in some way.” No. And the statement is unanswerable as phrased (see my earlier comment about lacking a colloquial language to discuss, and the days I spent in The Thread of Infamy constructing such a language). The problem as it was originally put to me was a “committed LTR alternative to marriage.” I made no proposal for an “alternative to marriage which includes kids” (which isn’t an alternative to marriage, it is marriage) for one very simple reason: there isn’t one, and provided example of why there isn’t one.… Read more »
Sun
“Do you not get that upping the alpha is a planned part of my self improvement no matter what?”
“There is little advice other than “ALPHA UP” still given, and I suspect it rang as hollow to him as it continues to ring for me.”
Then why don’t you see Alpha as the solution? That is obtuse.
Simon
Spoken like a DPA guy (counter culture motorcycle outlaw, self made aeronautic engineer, entrepreneur) who ran through a lot of women and deeply converted one. And chose to stay with her.
Who got lucky here?
Culum I’m totally convinced that no amount of explanation would have satisfied Ya. I even asked him numerous times why he wanted to be convinced of something he didn’t believe in down to the marrow of his bones. Nah. He was putting on a show for ” Teh newbs “. He was grandstanding to pump his own ego. There was no logical quest for answers as he systematically and repeatedly rejected any attempts to snap him into a world outside of pua. A world he knew less about than he thought. A world he’d had little success in. None of… Read more »
“So if you have alpha hand and you are determined to have kids, then get married after you vet like a motherfucker. If you don’t really want kids, why the fuck would you get married in the first place?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3MirHyX2w
https://www.vice.com/en_ca/topic/known-donor-registry
https://nypost.com/2016/06/12/professor-who-donates-sperm-in-city-bathrooms-has-sired-22-kids/
Blax
“Good thing he stopped short of giving financial advice….”
His advice was to focus on game tgrough your 20s then focus on your income later.
Not good advice. Small minded tyranny of the Or stuff…
Lol, I’ve been focused on Income since I was 16. The fuck’s he thinking?
More KJ stuff he had no experience in.
Sentient – we actually pretty much agree. That was the point I was trying to make: nobody could explain the value of marriage to YaReally in a logical list of pros and cons that he could accept. Saying “because I want to” (which he was told many rimes) wasn’t enough for him. That does not mean that there isn’t any value to marriage. As I said in my post – there clearly is (even excluding kids) or you guys wouldn’t be in it (this is where I disagree with YaReally because I am willing to take that on faith and… Read more »
Culum Struan February 10, 2018 at 6:54 pm Even after I got married I never felt married. One thing I noticed is that it confers social status. And I always got invited to parent teacher conferences. Other than that I have been indifferent. And YR “quit” because of my indifference? Or because I did it for “beta” reasons (she wanted it)? All I can say is that it seemed like a tolerable idea at the time. And has turned out in my case to make no difference (I kept frame). Her One-itis has been a tremendous help. And that is… Read more »
“Dresden Resident: Can’t you give me a proposal for an alternative to being fire bombed? Me: Dude, this isn’t a philosophical or legal question. You are being fire bombed! This is your reality. I propose you fireproof your ass and run like hell.” And so it goes… < ““So it goes” does not denote apathy, but rather is used whenever there is a mention of death. At times used tragically, at other times absurdly, this phrase, repeated more than 100 times, comes to represent the randomness of death — how death can come to anyone at any time — and… Read more »
Novaseeker
“BD’s multiple OLTR” What do these mean ? Tired at an airport and looking to improve my ignorance.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/08/health/sperm-donor-facts.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19497_6-terrifying-things-nobody-tells-you-about-donating-sperm.html
https://www.askmen.com/top_10/celebrity/top-10-foods-that-boost-your-sperm-count.html
Culum “(if you see what I mean)” I do. It’s why I posted guys riding 60 foot waves and driving fast enough to die easily. You can’t fit that stuff on a list of pros and cons. Wrong measure. And it’s not about the feels either. I said for myself, I’d been through a bunch of girls, found my 8 who was a personal 10 for me, vetted… Had hand ✋… Had oneitis from her. And wanted to get on with the adventure of life, wherever that was going to go. Never considered kids. Did want a possession, a title… Read more »
Ya Really with the Babe Ruth mindset: TIP #51 KEEP YOUR BIG GOALS SECRET While it’s natural and oh so tempting to want to announce big goals, it’s smarter to keep them to yourself. In a 2009 experiment at New York University, 163 subjects were given a difficult work project and forty-five minutes to spend on it. Half the subjects were told to announce their goals, while half were told to keep quiet. The subjects who announced their goals quit after only an average of thirty-three minutes, and reported feeling satisfied with their work. Those who kept their mouths shut,… Read more »
If YaReally decided to take his ball and go home, what was the proximate cause of that? Personal reasons of course. The OMG’s weren’t too hard on him, he by all means wasn’t hard enough on himself in the one dimensional-ness. Being one or two dimensional is no way to go through life, my son. But there he went. My theory is that he went to work for RSD. Thus the Ghosting. He didn’t seem the type to ghost. But he must have had strong reasons. But I can’t theorize Scray’s disappearance because that was just weird. He had it… Read more »
@ Rugby —
See here: http://www.blackdragonblog.com/glossary/
M Simon “The best I can come up with is that you don’t find them. They find you. Oddly enough when my Mom found my Dad it happened similarly. He was doing his rotation and she showed up. Six weeks later he was married. It lasted the rest of his life. Mom had no interest in finding a replacement.” Was in school and had this happen to me while i was morphing into a whole body integrated human Sapien https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg0iwjUUHDw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2a2DjxQL3c 3 approached me but one knew my name. Even now i think about how i blew the whole thing.… Read more »
“His advice was to focus on game tgrough your 20s then focus on your income later.” which is what i did. I dropped out of school my sophomore year. Haven’t you heard? We got the internets now man: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/6k0p7l/what_are_the_best_free_online_certificates_you/?st=1Z141Z3&sh=e2dc3af7 Don’t need to go to school. I mean unless you want to be a doctor/lawyer but fuck that: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076ZY8S8J/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://twitter.com/IllimitableMan/status/959160871925796864 You have the rest of your life to focus on income: “Gain just enough Game and experience banging young chicks in your 20s so that you are personally satisfied looking back.As soon as I hit that tipping point (different for every… Read more »
https://twitter.com/naval/status/912222091251871745
For those who do not wish to learn, the schools are pointless. For those who do wish to learn, they are redundant at best and a tortuous impediment at worst.
This has been true since long before the Internet.
Culum You’re still the man, lol. Okay, I’ll give you my reasons. Mind you, not all married men are exactly the same, even though we might have a lot of intersection. That’s hard to avoid, but the degree and intensity of import given to any aspect(s) will vary. …when I mentioned ” love “, ya and scray lol’ed at me across 2 blog posts, so I’ll save the definition as I see/practice it for the end. One thing I agree with ya on, is that in some way I was socially conditioned towards marriage. I grew up with both parents,… Read more »
j
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/02/08/geographic-disparity-states-best-and-worst-schools/1079181001/
“But not everyone’s even remotely worthy of a man’s true love. Not by a long fuxking shot.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfWWIZ-q00U
@Sentient
Because there are things that it doesn’t solve. To think it solves everything is daft.
Couple of interesting quotes I highlighted, from the chapter on education in Robin Hanson”s Elephant in the Brain: “The signaling model says that education raises a student’s value via certification—by taking an unknown specimen, subjecting it to tests and measurements, and then issuing a grade that makes its value clear to buyers. It explains why both students and employers are more interested in credentials (getting good grades and degrees from good colleges) than learning per se, even though, like Robin, they could get top-quality learning entirely for free. It also explains why no one is particularly bothered when curricula are… Read more »
… I’ve learned more out of school than in it. Learning is one of the cheapest things one can do to improve quality of life.
rugby11
February 10, 2018 at 8:34 pm
That last video seems hardly credible. He terrifies her and it doesn’t excite her? But maybe I don’t know the whole story. I have been acting like an OF for a while. Inattentive to recent (the last 20 years) popular culture.
The LTR says I have a scary face – a hard edge. She loves it.
Sun Wukong
February 10, 2018 at 10:07 pm
Because there are things that it doesn’t solve.
j February 10, 2018 at 10:14 pm The thing left out (a very big thing) is that learning is painful. You have a mass of knowledge and none of it makes sense. That hurts. You have to be willing to stay in that state and keep studying until the knowledge gels. The willing acceptance of suffering is how you learn. For most humans learning slows down at age 25 and by age 30 it stops. So – Blue Pill at age 30 probably means Blue Pill the rest of your life. It all has to do with the endocannabinoid system.… Read more »
“The willing acceptance of suffering is how you learn.
For most humans learning slows down at age 25 and by age 30 it stops. So – Blue Pill at age 30 probably means Blue Pill the rest of your life. It all has to do with the endocannabinoid system. In case you were wondering. No one know for sure (at all) but maybe the endocannabinoids decrease the pain.”
I disagree with you. At this stage in my story i find ways to change with doing a lot of work on myself.
“For most humans learning slows down at age 25 and by age 30 it stops. So – Blue Pill at age 30 probably means Blue Pill the rest of your life.”
No its still possible to do away with your blue pill self and transform pass age 30:
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/
Difficult maybe but still possible. Ideally, I think it’s a better strategy to get that part handled in your early 20s (approximately a 3-6 year investment) instead of jumping straight into a career post college and marrying the first girl you fancy
http://www.stephenhicks.org/2011/10/21/the-enlightenment-vision-%E2%80%94-updated-flowchart/
https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/962034052042641411
https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/962081928840208384
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-exploding-the-myth-of-cure-all-female-corporate-boards
https://www.theknifemedia.com/world-news/spot-hit-piece-case-jordan-peterson/
https://noqreport.com/2018/02/07/media-just-cant-handle-jordan-peterson/
https://www.sott.net/article/376871-The-Health-Wellness-Show-Amazing-Health-Journey-Interview-with-Mikhaila-Peterson
http://www.sixthtone.com/news/1001676/Face
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5374295/DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-Pilloried-speaking-sense.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeC285uL6_w “Okay, I’ll give you my reasons. Mind you, not all married men are exactly the same, even though we might have a lot of intersection. That’s hard to avoid, but the degree and intensity of import given to any aspect(s) will vary. …when I mentioned ” love “, ya and scray lol’ed at me across 2 blog posts, so I’ll save the definition as I see/practice it for the end. One thing I agree with ya on, is that in some way I was socially conditioned towards marriage. I grew up with both parents, who are still married and… Read more »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-PXjzcopo “But we as men need to be able to either recognise and come to grips with what love actually is, or we need to avoid it like the plague. We’re taught that love is beautiful and painful and wonderful and special and excruciating… Jesus Johnson, that sounds exhausting.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd_Am6DRaek “That’s your burden in this life. To keep moving towards what you wish for yourself requires a metric ton of thinking and watcihing and parsing and yeah, manning up always. Time and understanding and know!edge makes it much easier.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSOS8eSrvQY “Yup, I still believe in love. Love for me has… Read more »
rugby11
February 10, 2018 at 11:48 pm
Mentioned in the video:
Situational Assessment 2017: Trump Edition
https://medium.com/deep-code/situational-assessment-2017-trump-edition-d189d24fc046
A turning point in history. Very geeky (in a computer nerd sort of way). Pretty good too.
https://youtu.be/4NEvuQWR3oo
I should add that the turning point was predicted by the Futurist in 2010. http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble/
The Red Religion was born into and optimized for new media (e.g, optimized for memes rather than films)
From the link at
M Simon
February 11, 2018 at 2:44 am
Because there are things that it doesn’t solve. To think it solves everything is daft. @Sun, Is there any complex system that has a complete solution? The dynamics we’re dealing with here are so varied and often situational that it’s about nearly impossible to have all your bases covered. Humans are messy creatures. If we had foolproof solutions for all aspects of intersexual dynamics I have to wonder if some of the fun would be removed. Can you imagine T-Rex strolling into a Safeway to get his fill of red meat? T-Rex wants to hunt. Grocery stores are predictable. Sometimes… Read more »
In the Internet development biz the term “perfect is the enemy of the good” is a thing because seeking perfection means you believe what you have is never good enough.
Engineering strives for good enough X+/-a tolerance.
You can’t afford perfect. Odds are you can’t even measure it.
Mix fear and pessimism and you really got some joylessness.
And when you have that combo, you might just have less excess free energy. YaReally used to explain that he needed lots of down time to rejuvenate his energy.
There was this series on HBO a couple years ago called True Detective. One of the main characters played by Matthew McConaughey played beside Woody Harrelson. He was a true pessimist and sounded like this:
https://youtu.be/9oX2xFo7JA4
M – Situational Assessment 2017: Trump Edition … that was a good read.
Rugby, thanks for that video from Rebel Wisdom re: Peterson’s BBC4 interview and its aftermath. Blue Church and Red Religion…
Despite Peterson’s explosion, it’s remarkable that here, in my very Left work place worlds, almost no one knows who Peterson is. Just blank.
And my conversations with my clients often run along Peterson/Newman lines.
Ahh, thanks to M for that video, though I learn from all your stuff too, Rugby. Thank you
@ Culum and @ SJF RE: Communication Gap. I’m guessing that most people’s ideas are formed greatly by their own personal experiences. Some people are more impacted by the negatives that they’ve experienced, hence the pessimism SJF refers to. A little pessimism is healthy, but too much is poisonous. If your outlook becomes tainted, everything will be ” shitty ” to an extant and your views colored. Like a shit pair of glasses. I asked ya once about what he thought outside of pua stuff, and I admit that I was a bit horrified at his answer – he’s been… Read more »