Mitch’s Red Pill

With apologies to my regular readers and commentariat, I’m mid-stream through crafting my next essay and what do I see in the comment feed from last week’s post? Our (our soon to be formerly) Purple Pill friend Mitch returning to give us all an update on what was supposed to be his inevitable married bliss. Rather than allow Mitch’s saga get buried under pages of comments I thought I’d post the continuation of his in-progress unplugging here for others to benefit from. Be sure you read the first case study before you dig into his update below:

Hello Gentlemen,

It’s good to be back here reading your insightful, intelligent, funny, actionable posts. I’ve been away for awhile. Glad to see Rollo’s blog and books doing so well. Congratulations sir, and I sincerely thank you from the bottom of my purple-but-slowly-turning-red heart for your work. I am now eating my previous words about this being ideological and cult-like. lol. Some might remember that I was the eponymous subject of one of Rollo’s posts on purple pill, and the ensuing discussion about whether I was setting myself up for slaughter in marrying a Ukrainian I’d met online. I (basically) said I’m a big boy now at 50, and know what I’m doing with women, and would let ya’ll know how it worked out. Not that anyone gives a rat’s ass after all my bullshit, but whatever, here I am.

Funny thing is that I’d been thinking about posting this update a few days ago, after reconnecting with TRM blog, and I would have said something along the lines of: she has been here almost 9 months, we been married for 5, going reasonably well, regular and enjoyable sex, she cooks everything from scratch and takes good care of me and the house; she’s diligently studying english, meeting people, etc, seems mostly happy; without fail she packs my lunch every night – once she woke up at about 1 am and remembered she had not made my lunch for work next day, and even though I told her not to worry about it, she got up, and went downstairs and *cooked* me lunch. Her responsibility, she said. She also genuinely likes me, and is very loving and affectionate and passionate in bed. We’ve had some conflict, and I’ve mostly held my ground, but made some fairly key concessions in the spirit of playing fair (since she has, in actuality at this point, zero leverage in this relationship), and accommodating her wants and needs.

And hypergamy doesn’t give a fuck.

Lo and behold, yesterday the computer is open and I see a ‘Hi’ come across the screen from Skype from a male. Open the Skype window and she’s been chatting with this dude from New Hampshire or some shit, not long, but the kind of bare bones swapping of details – the guy’s on hunt for a wife, and she’s asking about the size of his town, and what’s the weather like, how many kids, etc. As the blood drains from my face, the veil parts, I see it for what it is, and I realize without a shadow of a doubt, this shit is real. Complete with the subsequent hamstering and total lack of accountability following.

I don’t believe she was actually interacting with this guy with any conscious intent to find someone else, but clearly she thinks about it, and is willing to “play” with the idea, even at a time when she has sooo much to lose. I could withdraw my petition to get her a green card in two seconds, and she’s done. I think she was/is bored and enjoys the attention and validation, and sense of (diminishing) power that she has over men.

So now I need to figure out what to do. i am beyond grateful for Rollo’s work, this blog, and forum, and having internalized RP to the limited extent that I have, and know I need to do A LOT more. It’s pretty humbling to be 50 and need to be totally schooled in something so basic. It’s fricking amazing that I have managed to hide myself from this knowledge for so long.

Thank you.

[…]

I meant to also say that I have learned a ton from you guys, and really appreciate the time and energy that many of you spent last fall trying to get me to get my head out of my ass. What can I say, I need to learn the hard way. Truth is, though, you guys were so vehement about it, that it definitely helped me to keep myself in reserve and react a bit more strategically to her.

Just to preface here, my intent isn’t to be cruel or pop of with ‘I todja so’, but I think it’s very important for guys in the various stages of unplugging to see Mitch’s situation as a clinical example. I’m not trying to flame you or pillory you Mitch, but your situation does serve as a good example.

As I mentioned in the first post about Mitch, there is a visceral desire on the part of Purple Pill men to force fit the parts of Red Pill awareness into Blue Pill idealisms and personal convictions because they simple cannot face the abyss of what a full Red Pill awareness presents to the belief set that the Blue Pill has conditioned them for. It is truly awful to be confronted with unflattering truths about the nature of women as well as a man’s coming to realize he’s got to drop all of his previous idealism and create a new, positive, paradigm for himself based on Red Pill awareness. For a lot of men inured by the Blue Pill it’s just too horrible to let go of those hopes based in a false awareness of their experience.

Thus, we get tropes like “well, the Red Pill is true, but it’s okay to have ONEitis for a girl because my new awareness insulates me from the worst effects of it.” Mitch even began his first entreaty by claiming this woman was “the ONE.”

I’d like to encourage men who still want a good wife to look East. As in, Russia, Ukraine and other former USSR counties. I cannot begin to tell you how encouraged and revitalized I am by this woman I met – and by most of the women I met and interacted with before I found “the One.

Shades of Purple

I’m beginning to see that there are two varieties of Purple Pill men; the first is the guy whose revenue and wellbeing depends on his only accepting what the Red Pill presents to him in half-measure. These are the Man-Up, do the right thing moralists who only ever marginally warn against the nature of women while believing that the self-improvement imperative that the Red Pill represents to men will more than compensate for the very real dangers of a man not fully killing his inner Beta. These are usually the guys who at one time were solidly Red Pill and used that awareness to their personal benefit with women (and life), but at some stage their life’s circumstance demanded that they “change their ways” and shift back to believing that Blue Pill ideals can be had with Red Pill means. These are the men who follow The Script.

The second type of Purple Pill man is the one who never fully unplugged. I believe this was where Mitch was when I outlined his situation in the first essay. There is a certain class of men who simply cannot ignore the truths that the Red Pill presents to them, and they eagerly endorse the tenets and the understanding of women’s visceral natures. Hypergamy doesn’t care, they get the dynamics of Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks, they even believe they’ve come to terms with their own (often Beta) nature and what it is they believe is necessary to effect a change in their lives; yet there are aspects of that Red Pill awareness that they desperately want to reconcile with their long-held Blue Pill idealistic hopes. So, as a result, they attempt to discard or ignore whatever aspect of the Red Pill that isn’t conducive to making those old Blue Pill dreams come true.

For as long as I’ve been writing in the Manosphere I’ve always made a point of telling men never to use my marriage (or other Red Pill married men’s marriages) as some kind of template or goal to be had with Red Pill awareness. I realize that my own Red Pill marriage seems like some ideal to strive for, but what I think most unmarried single men need to consider is that, for the vast majority of men who’ve been able to unplug, remake themselves and employ an internalized understanding of Red Pill awareness within their marriages and in their families, these men do so in spite of themselves.

Very few men I know of, whom I’d say are Red Pill aware husbands and fathers, did not set out to be so. I have no doubt that in the future I’ll encounter men who were formerly Blue Pill and Beta who changed themselves, unplugged, became Red Pill aware, internalized it and used it to enter into a marriage wherein his Frame was always the primary and his wife intrinsically recognized it and was attracted to him because of it. I do hope this is eventually the case for some men, but as it stands now, the far more common occurrence is the Blue Pill, Beta husband who was “awakened while married” and turned his marriage back from the brink – if indeed that is the case at all. Even more commonly it is divorced men put through the ringer who unplugged post-divorce.

As I mentioned in the first case study about Mitch is his story is engaging because it so faithfully follows the progression of rationales Purple Pill men will use in order to hold fast to their old, comfortable mindset – in this case it’s the Blue Pill dream of an idyllic marriage had through Red Pill means.

One danger I think should be apparent to Red Pill men having to deal with a Purple Pill guy who’s hostile and resistant to what they’re trying to tell him is the potential disaster a Purple Pill man is setting himself up for in his inability to really stare at the abyss, work through the anger and hopelessness, and then recreate himself. This, I feel, is where that resistance stems from. It’s not so much an inability to acknowledge the truth of what real Red Pill intersexual dynamics is showing him, but rather how he will internalize, process and use that to create a better life for himself. So you get anger, not at the message as much as the messenger, when you tell him his sincere hopes are based on a Blue Pill interpretation of what a ‘good marriage’ is:

Lol…you guys can go fuck yourselves. I appreciate where ya’ll are coming from, though. Trying to save me from myself. And i appreciate how naive my post must sound to a bunch of hard core red pillers like yourselves. However, I am not nearly as inexperienced with women and LTR’s as ya’ll assume. I have learned a lot from red pill in general and this site in particular – it’s very insightful and helpful, and I’ve adjusted my attitude and posture toward women because of it. At the same time, though, it strikes me that many of you are taking on red pill ideas as a kind of ideology, and that’s its own kind of danger. The absolute certainty that ya’ll think you know all you need to know about me and my woman and my relationship from that very brief post is what I mean. As if red-pill theory, or whatever it is, completely and concisely explains the total dynamic between a man and woman. Red pill explains a lot of things really well, but certainly not the totality of the mystery that is between a man a woman in a marriage.

And yet, it does and it did.

If you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then I feel sorry for you. Red pill helps me tremendously in seeing more clearly what is going on. I totally get that I am a beta provider for her, that a large part of my appeal is what I can provide, and I get that she is turned on by alpha traits. Both of these things can coexist in the same person. Understanding this and what’s behind it makes me feel less anxious and insecure about that, because I’m more clear about what to do.

Also, being a beta provider does not make me a bitch. Providing for my woman and family is a large part of what makes me a man, and I derive great satisfaction and pride in doing so.
Also, I am not in any way “settling” for a 44 yo woman. Younger women were/are available to me, but that is not what i choose.

There’s a lot more to life than fucks and bucks, but if that’s all it is for you, then this is the type of woman you will attract. In a relationship, what you get is what you are. If I can’t find a way to live with an open heart, then I don’t know what the fucking point is. But, to each his own.

So, here we are. And again, it’s hard for this not to come off as a big ‘I toldja so’, but I think it’s even more important for Red Pill men who have it in them to want to help a Blue Pill guy unplug, or hell, just to even recognize the reasons why he’s in the personal circumstances he is, to remember that the Purple Pill guy is only lashing out because he fears the totality of the truth that Red Pill awareness brings into his life. As I always say, unplugging guys from the Matrix is dirty work, but I am genuinely glad to have Mitch back on track and hopefully he’s learned something from the experience. I think other Red Pill men should adopt the same spirit of welcoming a Blue/Purple Pill prodigal son back into the fold.

So that’s my take, but please feel free to comment on Mitch’s situation in the comments thread.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

728 comments on “Mitch’s Red Pill

  1. “Societies revert to default settings during disasters and collapses. Defaults aren’t optimal.”

    They do, and it isn’t.
    But the default setting it going to depend on the community.
    And communities that have no close connections turn more predatorial and destructive when disasters hit. Communities that form close connections come together more.

  2. Not. Talking about disaster and the like: The government cannot substitute husbands. First let me say that my heart goes out to the many affected by the Harvey disaster. But looking at a lot of the news coverage, many families appear to have no man around. I see bitter single women being interviewed on TV, shivering children on tow, screaming at news network microphones saying at the top of their shrill voices, “NO ONE CAME!” Polimen cannot play the role of husbands. There simply aint enough of them. I am reminded that America and the west in general MUST put the man back into the home, permanently.

  3. Recenkty found myself slipping back to a purple pill mindset with my main plate/MLTR… this post resonated.
    …….

    It happens to the most of red pill men so don’t beat yourself

    Now what you did do right is notice you were half stepping. That shit is golden because now you can fix your shit

  4. For what it’s worth, been super impressed with the men in Huston. The locals and the guys who just showed up to take care of bidness.

    I was in Canda when that shit started going down and the folks I talked to up there thought It was amazing as well

  5. Our entire society is organized around limited-time deals.

    Why is that? Do you see that as a good thing?

    When people have little or no stake in their communities/families they invest very little into them.

    Women invest in their kids. Men might invest in communities/families if there was a reason to. Men have been discouraged from investing in their communities and families because of legal supplication to the FI. No fault divorce. VAWA. Women being encouraged to accuse men of rape and abuse with no penalty for false accusations or requirement for evidence other than the accusation. Men are discouraged from investing in their employers because employers encourage moving to new employers rather than loyalty.

    Transfer of funds from govt. to women requires high taxes and makes retail stores uncompetitive so there’s no loyalty to retail stores. Chipping away at community investment. Churches cater to women and men quit going to church. Less investment in the community.

    Maybe society needs to start catering to men again.

  6. Just seen that Mitch left his browser open and the Ukrainicorn knows what’s up!

    And Mitch STILL thinks he can game her!!

    @ Mitch this is what checkmate looks like you have given her All the ammunition she needs to label you as an abuser to the legal system.

    I actually feel sorry for her, this business deal has turned a little sour for her and she’s rightfully thinking ” is the juice worth the squeeze ” with this cuck didn’t he understand what this was?

    I bet her skin crawls every time you go near her now and rightfully so, you have fucked this up so bad that I don’t know how she can justify staying long enough to secure the GC!

    Sure sucks to be her right now.
    D

  7. @Sentient

    Put another way, maybe men would do better to cater to other men instead of catering to women. Oh, but sexism.

    It’s sexist if you cater to men, but not sexist if you cater to women.

  8. @Mitch

    I think you found RP too late you are still a firmly plugged in blue pill beta.

    At this point I think the best option for you would be ‘Game Light’ aka beta game.

    Act like a beta provider in waiting ( shouldn’t be too hard ) focus on post wall chicks that are still fuckable act like the stand up dependable nice guy, but keep your emotions in check ( this will be the hard part for you) bang the shit out of them until they push for commitment and then onto the next

    Seriously I think this is your best option.

  9. Sounds like a heavy lift for Mitch.

    I think he should arrange to come home alone from this camping trip; then, somehow implicate Skype-boy in the “disappearance”.

    Allllthough…..Svetlana’s use of Mitch’s laptop has taken away his plausible deniability. Oh, she’s good. She’s very good.

    Yep. Mitch is fucked.

    And not in a good way either.

  10. Ton
    For what it’s worth, been super impressed with the men in Huston. The locals and the guys who just showed up to take care of bidness.

    Well, it helps when the state goveror doesn’t have a emotional meltdown, and FEMA doesn’t chase off the men in boats. Some big differences between Katrina and Harvey.

  11. GTR
    I don’t understand something – if the default behavior of a woman is to be with a man for some time, then switch to another man for some time, then switch again – why not organize society around this? As long as the time with a single man is enough to pop up one or two kids this would assure the existance of future generations.

    Dalrock calls this the “child support model” of “family”. It has been shown to produce a lot of bad effects, and the divorce / child support industry is a huge waste of money at the social level.

  12. Lot more differences then that and it’s been interesting to semi watch unfold. Not that I love disasters but I love how they reveal what a man is made out of and I have studied how men in act in a shit storm above all else

  13. @ Mitch

    Take a look of the principles of Game. https://illimitablemen.com/archives/understanding-the-red-pill/game/

    #06 – Trust your gut.
    If your balls are tingling a bitch is probably gonna kick you in the balls. Don’t ignore your better instincts for a whiff of the pussy. If a bitch gives you alarm, stop the interaction, don’t argue, just leave. Guys ignore their gut because they’re in love or in lust. Compromise when you’re comfortable, do not compromise when you’re uncomfortable as when it gets thrown in your face, because you bent over too far backwards, you’re not just going to be angry at her but at yourself too because you compromised yourself.

    #07 – If anything goes wrong it’s always your fault (because she’s a reflection of you.)
    Anything that happens in a relationship that goes bad with your woman, if your woman’s a bitch, if she’s disrespectful, if she cheats on you, if she leaves you, if she takes your money – it’s your fault. The way she treats you is down to the presentation you give her. There’s no such thing as victims, just volunteers.

    #10 – Agreements with women don’t mean shit.
    Don’t think that if you’re honest and they agree to it, that they’ll agree it to later, there’s no binding legal agreement. Women have integrity amnesia, whatever you decide the relationship will be in the beginning doesn’t mean a damn thing. What she wants in a relationship changes based upon her emotions because her reality stems from her emotional state (See #16.) Whatever they agree to in the beginning doesn’t mean shit later on, they haven’t signed a legal contract, you have to police that, you have to hold firm with the rules, you show you’re a real man by sticking to your guns. Likewise, if you establish something as a pattern, that pattern can’t change just because she chooses to complain about it.

  14. Ton
    Lot more differences then that

    Yeah, lots. There haven’t been any California cops driving around Houston busting old ladies for their .32 revolver, like we saw in N.O. either. Looter wannabes seem a lot more restrained. But the first and most obvious: Greg Abbott didn’t have an emotional meltdown like Mary Kay did and FEMA let men with boats do what is needed. None of that “Us Feds sez you can’t help” stuff.

    and it’s been interesting to semi watch unfold. Not that I love disasters but I love how they reveal what a man is made out of and I have studied how men in act in a shit storm above all else

    I knew some people in Florida who rode out Andrew years back. Not a fun party, but proper preparation made the difference for them. Hanging a bedsheet with “You Loot We Shoot” from the trees probably helped some.

  15. Yeah NO about what I suspected for the area and the people running things. A city so out of control it took military style operations to make things safe for 1st responders. The stories would be unbelievable if I wasn’t already familiar with how things play out

  16. Well Mitch, I am late to the party but help has finally arrived!

    https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill

    Yes, it is certainly possible for a man to continue riding the Ukrainicorn that you describe.

    No, I don’t think Mitch is a troll. We have clueless guys like this all the time over on MRP.

    Yes, plenty of guys on TRM are rabidly anti female and even more rabidly anti relationship. Think about why that might be the case.

    Yes I think getting caught surfing and compu-flirting is VERY, VERY serious BUT it is NOT a blanket justification for a divorce. If it were, there would be no marriage, such as it is.

    No it is not that unusual for a woman in a marriage to be looking for a backup guy. In fact in a recent study more than 50% of married women have a backup guy.

    An “Alpha” guy with game could certainly pull it off. A man with Red Pill knowledge who understands women could pull it off.

    Can Mitch pull it off? I seriously doubt it. He is so invested in the Blue Pill equalitarian dream it is an amazing example. Truly amazing! However, if Mitch is willing to get with the program he can do it. He can learn game. He can build a frame. He can lead this hypergamous little whore into the bedroom and probably all the way to his death bed in 40 years.

    All he needs is exactly the same I Don’t Give a Fuck attitude that all of you guys are telling him to build. All he needs are OPTIONS. All he needs is some CREDIBLE Dread Game- This will get you started: https://bluepillprofessor.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/hello-world/

    For Mitch I only have one question. Do you even lift, brah?

  17. “All he needs are OPTIONS.”

    The problem for Mitch is that at this point he’s already thrown most of his good ones into the sun.

  18. Bluepillprof

    “No it is not that unusual for a woman in a marriage to be looking for a backup guy.”

    Mitch picked his wife out of a catalog, spent weeks negotiating the price, saw her in person twice, had sex under duress, paid and handed her the keys to everything while deluding himself he saw and mitigated risks. This isn’t a seven year itch or case of unhappy… This is a well devised business plan be executed to perfection…

    By her.

    https://media.mobilerving.com/mobilerving/blog_image/resize/details/1455303329_blog_image.jpg

    Mitch is this stupid.

  19. Such a good thread. I’m just catching up and the quality & number of thought provoking comments is gold. I’m going to re-evaluate quite a few things in my life, I kid you not. Thanks to new commenters too, keep posting guys. But… how do you all find time to be up to speed with TRM you fuckers?!

    @Rollo, thanks for this space. I think that’s your biggest achievement sir. Hat tip.

  20. Still trying to figure out what’s going on socially. Seems like men at the bars are constantly trying to con me. They have obvious social skills–more than I do, yet they try a little too hard to be friendly. One guy pours concrete and is connected locally with MMA promotion…another guy used to drive semis locally and promotes his wife in entertainment. A young guy who works in a body shop wants my time and I think he thinks he gets some social proof from me talking to him and maybe some wisdom. The young guy seems the most transparent…he clues me in to some shit going on behind the scenes.

  21. Well Mitch, I am late to the party but help has finally arrived!

    https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill

    The MRP Reddit was basically created for morons like you who want to use Red Pill praxeology to work on the marriage without the continual advice from PUA’s and MGTOW’s to NEEEEXXXXXTTTTT!

    Yes, it is certainly possible for a man to continue riding the Ukrainicorn that you describe even though the facts are TERRIBLE as you describe. The guys are right you know. When she gets the Green Card her power will be even greater than it is now and you will be in an even worse position.

    All that said, no, I don’t think Mitch is a troll. We have clueless guys like this all the time over on MRP.

    Yes, plenty of guys on TRM are rabidly anti female and even more rabidly anti relationship. Think about why that might be the case Mitch. Think hard. Think why the word “Ukrainicorn” is even a word. (Hint: It’s because of AWALT).

    Yes I think getting caught surfing and compu-flirting is VERY, VERY serious BUT it is NOT a blanket justification for a divorce. If it were, there would be no marriage, such as it is.

    No it is not that unusual for a woman in a marriage to be looking for a backup guy. In fact in a recent study more than 50% of married women have a backup guy. The guys telling you this is an auto NEXT are saying 50% of marriages are an auto next. I disagree. AWALT. Hypergamy is a real thing guys. Women have it. Unicorns have it. Ukrainicorns have it.

    IF you are her best option it can work. An “Alpha” guy with game could certainly pull it off. A man with Red Pill knowledge who understands women could pull it off.

    Can Mitch pull it off? I seriously doubt it. He is so invested in the Blue Pill equalitarian dream it is an amazing example. Truly amazing! However, if Mitch is willing to get with the program he can do it. He can learn game. He can build a frame. He can lead this hypergamous little whore into the bedroom and probably all the way to his death bed in 40 years.

    All he needs is exactly the same I Don’t Give a Fuck attitude that all of you guys are telling him to build. All he needs are OPTIONS. All he needs is some CREDIBLE Dread Game- This will get you started:

    https://bluepillprofessor.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/hello-world/

    For Mitch I only have one question:

    Do you even lift, brah?

    [You probably should’ve read Mitch’s first confession before posting this: https://therationalmale.com/2016/10/13/case-study-mitchs-purple-pill/ ]

  22. @ Mitch

    “But I am not a naive little lamb offering myself for slaughter.”

    vs

    “Let that sink in.

    The theory goes that the sponsor should be held responsible for the costs of a foreign national who, say, goes on welfare after the break-up of a marriage. In that situation, the U.S. government may sue the sponsor to recover the costs involved.

    In one case I had not long ago, the government was pursuing my client as a sponsor for $90,000 in social services benefits that were incurred by the sponsored parties several years ago. The sponsor argued he should not be held liable because he was disabled by illness and could therefore not support himself, never mind others. The government did not buy that excuse. They wanted their money.”

    Your either having a laugh or your in the process of getting fu*ked and not in a good way.

    Its hard to believe anyone could be this naive at 50….

    Your either taking the piss or just been extremely lucky to date. The saving grace, sounds like covering the welfare costs is as bad as it may get for you – I hope you get stung for this – Just enough to teach you a lesson but hopefully not wipe you out…

    Cut your losses and get out – If this strings out to the point she can go for alimony, assets your fucked, no idea how the legality of divorces work in the US, state differences, timelines etc… but I’m sure theirs a way….

  23. Dread? I cant wait for this thread to pass. A professional husband hunter, takes a guy on the goose chase to Italy all expense paid for; zero desire. Is he going to wait till the hand appears and writes Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin?

  24. Assuming she comes back from camping trip….We might just be his electronic alibi for all we know?

    Mitch needs practical advice assuming he will go into the jaws of death (i.e marriage with a double government involvement in the form of a green card requirement to support her) like setting up trusts to protect his assets or something.

  25. If Mitch is not a fictional character or a troll, then he is fucked.

    Women love men who can GAME them, the naturals. But they hate men who have “learnt” GAME. That is why “the Fight Club” rule is quoted so often.

    Nastya is now aware that the tough guy macho stunts Mitch has been using on her are based on the help from commenters here at The Rational Male. Whatever little respect she had for him has evaporated in thin air after reading his little boy rants here, not now she will destroy him with glee without feeling any guilt (well they don’t feel guilt …. so correction …. “without feeling any shame”).

    Hey Nastya, I know you are here reading all this and so are your friends from back home – Aneta, Ljudmila and Svetlana. Girls, welcome to The Rational Male, get your tits out”.

  26. I actually feel sorry for her, this business deal has turned a little sour for her and she’s rightfully thinking ” is the juice worth the squeeze ” with this cuck didn’t he understand what this was?

    I bet her skin crawls every time you go near her now and rightfully so, you have fucked this up so bad that I don’t know how she can justify staying long enough to secure the GC!

    Back from camping. We had a fantastic time. You guys have my situation so wrong, have been filing all kinds of ridiculous details based on your sorry pasts and paranoid imaginations. Glad I’m not you. Anyway, it was fun for awhile, but don’t think i’ll be providing the material for part 3 & 4 – since ya’ll already know what will happen, what’s the point.

    I know now what she was doing talking to that guy. I’m looking forward to many happy years with her.

    cheers guys. and good luck.

  27. So now I need to figure out what to do.

    Hoo boy. Mitch still hasn’t learned.

    Other commenters have already said it. I’ll say it again:

    Your marriage is over. You can end it on your terms, or she will end it on her terms. It’s that simple.

    You found evidence she was talking to a strange man? Asking him qualifying questions like weather and kids? Good gravy, man, she will dump you as soon as something better comes along! Stop making excuses for her — man up and look into the abyss.

    Stuff like this is like cockroaches. Seeing one means there are 10+ others you don’t see. I guarantee it.

    Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt, Mitch.

    You need more pain, Mitch. Yes, more pain. Whatever you do, do NOT confront her. Keep this secret. You need to gather more evidence for YOURSELF first. Put spyware on the computer, the kind that logs all keystrokes, messaging applications and takes screenshots. Wait a week or two. Then you will have PLENTY of pain.

    Next, see a lawyer. A GOOD ONE. Check your options and plan ahead. If she knows anything she’ll claim domestic abuse against you under VAWA. Assume it and plan.

    Do NOT drop the bomb until you have prepared — legally, financially, emotionally. That way you will have the element of surprise and steeled will on your side.

    When you eventually drop the bomb she will turn an Oscar-worthy performance about how much she truly loves you and this is all a big misunderstanding. Tears, crying, crazy good sex, everything. Without hard, incontrovertible evidence of spyware you are likely to be swayed. The more evidence you see, the more pain you have, the better.

  28. Back from camping. We had a fantastic time. You guys have my situation so wrong, have been filing all kinds of ridiculous details based on your sorry pasts and paranoid imaginations. Glad I’m not you. Anyway, it was fun for awhile, but don’t think i’ll be providing the material for part 3 & 4 – since ya’ll already know what will happen, what’s the point.

    I know now what she was doing talking to that guy. I’m looking forward to many happy years with her.

    cheers guys. and good luck.

    Oh dear. Mitch truly deserves what’s coming, good and hard.

  29. Mitch is certainly one of those “nah man you just don’t get it. She only sucked his cock because she was drunk. She told me!” guys.

  30. “Mitch” — you forbid him from posting, eh? Sounds like you locked down your GC for the price of a roll in a sleeping bag. You’ve added another data point to my hypothesis that all women are prostitutes. Relay my greetings to your “husband.”

  31. ACT I
    SCENE I:
    Concludes as Mitch leaves in haughty huff.

    SCENE II:
    Mitch arrives months later, sharing his woes.

    SCENE III:
    Mitch again leaves in haughty huff.

    (insert chorus in the there somewhere)

  32. No haughty huff here. I like you guys, but your diagnosis is just wrong wrt to my situation and my relationship, and you cannot help me. I appreciate you trying though, and I’m genuinely sorry if I wasted people’s time.

    I’ll check out MRP, dr BP prof, I’ll take a gander at your stuff as well. Thanks.

    1. Translation… “my situation is actually far worse because of details I have deliberately omitted. My iceberg actually goes very very deep.”

      See you at the bottom of the ocean there “unsinkable”…

  33. Mitch, You are either a troll or you are fucked. You stupid fucker.

    It’s exactly this type of comment that has me realize that those of you making them are not nearly as experienced as you believe you are- regardless of your N-count and quality of such. Your experience is far more narrow than you are aware. This is the comment of an emotionally retarded person – the evidence for that being you cannot imagine any possibility outside of me either being totally fucked, or me being a troll.

    The reality is that
    a) I’m not a troll; and
    b) I’m going to be just fine.

    It is interesting that this bothers you guys so much. It’s like you can’t bear to have your view of reality challenged- it really, really pisses you off. (I did not come back here to challenge anyone, I was exactly where I said I was) You guys come here to the comments every day to have your view of reality validated and reinforced – and every new “convert” validates you. I see that you’re not really about helping other men, you’re about having your own view of reality reinforced, because otherwise you might start to ‘slip’. Hmmm. Also not the path to growth and self-mastery. But hey, that’s only one guys opinion, and in your eyes I don’t know jack shit. That’s ok.

  34. “It is interesting that this bothers you guys so much. It’s like you can’t bear to have your view of reality challenged- it really, really pisses you off. (I did not come back here to challenge anyone, I was exactly where I said I was) You guys come here to the comments every day to have your view of reality validated and reinforced – and every new “convert” validates you. I see that you’re not really about helping other men, you’re about having your own view of reality reinforced, because otherwise you might start to ‘slip’. Hmmm. Also not the path to growth and self-mastery. But hey, that’s only one guys opinion, and in your eyes I don’t know jack shit. That’s ok.”

    @Mitch

    Project much?

    1. Ukrainicorn- “I see by your responses online that are not like those other guys”

      Mitch – “all my waiting has paid off, finally…”

      Oh you are definitely not like other guys lol.

  35. @MItch

    You ostensibly came here seeking advice regarding your relationship. When the answers didn’t match with what you wanted to hear, you got defensive. You keep saying that guys on here are being negative, and are that way because of all their bad experiences. That may be true (it certainly is in my case — I could never recommend marriage after my three failed experiences), but it doesn’t discount the fact that the best advice comes from those with experience.

    However your situation turns out, I think it would be of great service if you came back to share. One way or another, it will prove to be educational for everyone. And that’s the whole point of this forum.

  36. @marley

    However your situation turns out, I think it would be of great service if you came back to share. One way or another, it will prove to be educational for everyone.

    I’ll tell you what – I’ll come back and share if the outcome turns out to result in you guys being able to say “i toldja so”, otherwise I won’t bother because it’s pretty clear that you won’t believe or accept any result other than what you expect. So there really isn’t anything to learn.

  37. @Mitch

    Don’t sell us short. We like a successful Field Report, too.

    Seriously, though, I wish you all the best luck. I could never do it again. I got a mild coal-raking last go-round and I count myself lucky to be where I am right now. I can’t imagine going through a divorce where the federal government comes looking to collect social program monies that they’d paid to my ex. Yikes!

    Don’t be a stranger.

    PS…@everyone: how the heck are you guys formatting your text? I tried copying and pasting from Word, but it always comes into here as plain text.

  38. Guys…..

    Let Mitch go.

    If he/she/it is a troll, then it doesn’t matter.

    If Mitch is for real, then he’s one of millions who peered into the abyss and couldn’t bear to see what he saw.

    Let the dead bury the dead. Rollo will say last rites for Mitch. Let those who want help, seek help.

  39. I started to unplug very late, at 47. I was a blue pill nice guy poster boy. With all the knowledge I have today there is no way I could go a path like Mitch. Even if I wanted to I just couldnt do it anymore.

  40. Finally I realized that something was very wrong with my perception of life and society. It didnt take long search to find TRM. Suddenly it all made sense. Once youve left the paradise of not being aware you cant turn back. A red pill man burned the bridges.

  41. Mitch, You fucking yourself does not bother us at all. We’re trying to save you some money so you’re not eating dog food when you’re retired. You stupid Fucker.

  42. Good luck to you Mitch. More back and forth is pointless.

    The cards are dealt. The hand will be played. Either you’re right, or the commenters here are right. Time will tell.

    For posterity’s sake, come back here and do a final chapter.

  43. I was lucky. I found a “great woman” after dating a few hags post divorce.

    I wasn’t lucky in finding her, that was easy. My good fortune came from the fact that before I could completely fall into the abyss (after professing my undying love), she decided to stop seeing me. Why? Because I wouldn’t move (we lived 3 hours apart from each other) and I wouldn’t stop talking with my (x)wife (we had to co-parent three kids, can’t do that without talking) and mostly because I told her in the beginning “I never want to financially support another woman” – meaning, she would have to work if she wanted “the life” she thought she was entitled to.

    I’m Mitch’s age (50’s) and although not at the point of being militant MGTW, I really just don’t care. I’ve been called all sorts of things by women over the past couple years – emotionally distant is my favorite. But really who cares. They are nothing but a distraction for me now – sometimes I need more of it, other times less.

    I feel for the story of Mitch. In that, being single is wonderful at my age. In another year (last one finished HS next summer), I can go anywhere and do anything. I don’t need a companion, or a sidekick, to enjoy my life. And if you understand anything about women, sex is always available. It’s too bad Mitch can’t embrace being single – there is absolutely no reason to be married or live with a woman, really zero. If he wants a cook – you can hire someone to do that. If you want your house cleaned or laundry done – you can hire someone to do that. If you want to have sex – you can find women that will willingly have sex. If I want a traveling companion, who is willing to have sex – you can find those also.

    Do I miss “the one that got away”? Yes. When I do, I just let it happen – and afterwards, I have myself a glass of fine scotch, and thank my lucky stars she left. I want her to find that provider, that man who will provide those things/possessions/frills that she so desperately desired. Oh course I know, that won’t make her happy – as my reluctance to giving her those things didn’t make her happy. (and we all know why that is).

    Most Men don’t want to leave the Matrix – even with their new knowledge (and for some full awareness), they only want to have what they were promised. Seeing everything behind the camera just isn’t something they are willing to fully embrace. Purple may be the color, but they truly prefer blue.

    Mitch. I hope you find what you’re looking for – but if you believe it sits somewhere out there, in the “world” you will miss the most glorious years of your life. Free yourself and embrace the “veiled” truths – and be the director of your life – seeing both what is in front and behind the camera – understanding there two worlds you command – not just one.

  44. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/why-happy-people-cheat/537882/?utm_source=atlfb

    This article was posted about indfidelity.
    I think it’s a brilliant example of how people (particularly women) can be completely consciously clueless about their motivations but still unbelievable predicatable in their behavior.

    I learned a ton from this blog and how that this can help BP folk realize it has nothing to do with you but everything to do with you.

  45. Admittedly I believe the conclusions suck in this article. I wouldn’t stick around to fix and keep a wife/gf who needed to figure herself with someone else.

    Having said that, the woman got everything she wanted in her relationship. The author (therapist) believes it’s self discovery that was the whole point of her transgressions. My response is…

    So what?

    She got everything in the relationship and still felt at liberty to want more at the risk of everything. She picked what was safe and idealized, realizing only later she wants something else…

    What the fuck.

    Good for her but the guy is left either in blissful ignorance or with a potential of starting over with her?

    What a load of bullshit.

    The article’s merits lie in the hypergamy rationalizations of the therapist and perpetrator. There is much ‘gnashing of teeth’ but it happens and continues to happen.

    Like the above rational male article there is the myth of the good wife.

  46. “The author (therapist) believes it’s self discovery that was the whole point of her transgressions.”

    They always do.

  47. @emillkim

    Thanks for posting that. That was a great cite, Esther Perel certainly seems to be the only non-fiction writer that actually has some semblance of a need to balance masculine and feminine sexual strategies, so that neither has to be compromised as much as it usually is. I like my Dr. Laura Schlessenger because she gives the finger to the Sisterhood of Feminism, but she rarely advocates for men’s sexual strategy because she is a girl.

    https://www.estherperel.com/about

    (I didn’t read Mating in Captivity.)

    “I wanted Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence to be an honest, enlightened, and provocative conversation on relationships and sexuality that was beyond the common labels of smut or sanctimony. I wanted people to question themselves, to speak the unspoken, and to be unafraid to challenge sexual and emotional correctness. I encouraged my audience to grapple with the tensions, obstacles, and anxieties that arise when our quest for love and security conflicts with our pursuit of adventure and freedom. I wanted to take relationship advice out of the exclusive female market, and make it dual-gender. I wanted to refrain from offering simplistic solutions, and instead create a community around the paradoxes of our intimate lives. Sexuality lives at the intersection of multiple disciplines.

    “I learned a ton from this blog and how that this can help BP folk realize it has nothing to do with you but everything to do with you.”

    It is important to realize when it is You or when it is Her in relationship Game that “just doesn’t get it”. We have had some clarity in calling out men when they are at fault: It’s him. And women when they are behaving badly: It’s her as a shitty little girl. (Of course, Mitch’s Saga contains elements of both.)

    And what we get from Andy’s Saga over time in spiritual enlightenment, is that he tried to “just Understand Himself” and he overcompensated by being spiritually enlightened by nihilism wrapped in letting go. That’s no way to go through life.

    And in the article you cited, what was going on is the principles Perel wrote about, were overcompensating for the fact that they didn’t know themselves and were acting out their shadow personalities (ALA Jordan Peterson’s talks about the Shadow self. Making themselves strong in a Doestoyevskian way of acting on their dark side. Of which Peterson says: You should consider that because it makes you stronger. The problem is it is only necessary to do that when you were weak and didn’t understand the Walter White–Breaking Bad–tendencies you harbored when you Didn’t Know Thyself, and thus knew in your heart that you were weak.)

    Quote from Perel’s article:

    “The quest for the unexplored self is a powerful theme of the adulterous narrative, with many variations. Priya’s parallel universe has transported her to the teenager she never was. Others find themselves drawn by the memory of the person they once were. And then there are those whose reveries take them back to the missed opportunity, the one that got away, and the person they could have been. The sociologist Zygmunt Bauman wrote that in modern life,

    there is always a suspicion … that one is living a lie or a mistake; that something crucially important has been overlooked, missed, neglected, left untried and unexplored; that a vital obligation to one’s own authentic self has not been met, or that some chances of unknown happiness completely different from any happiness experienced before have not been taken up in time and are bound to be lost forever.

    “Bauman speaks to our nostalgia for unlived lives, unexplored identities, and roads not taken. As children, we have the opportunity to play at other roles; as adults, we often find ourselves confined by the ones we’ve been assigned or the ones we have chosen. When we select a partner, we commit to a story. Yet we remain forever curious: What other stories could we have been part of? Affairs offer us a view of those other lives, a peek at the stranger within. Adultery is the revenge of the deserted possibilities.”

    And what a great kicker for Married Red Pill Game:

    “I often say to my patients that if they could bring into their marriage one-tenth of the boldness and the playfulness that they bring to their affair, their home life would feel quite different.”

    I’ll be damned if this doesn’t remind me of some practical advice from The Way of The Superior Man (Chapter 12) on what a guy should do (preferably in his late twenties) to actually know himself.

    First, a Segue from Chapter 11:

    If You Don’t Know Your Purpose, Discover It, Now

    Without a conscious life purpose a man is totally lost, drifting, adapting to events rather than creating events. Without knowing his life purpose a man lives a weakened, impotent existence, perhaps eventually becoming even sexually impotent, or prone to mechanical and disinterested sex.

    Quote:

    Be Willing to Change Everything in Your Life

    A man must be prepared to give 100% to his purpose, fulfill his karma or dissolve it, and then let go of that specific form of living. He must be capable of not knowing what to do with his life, entering a period of unknowingness and waiting for a vision or a new form of purpose to emerge. These cycles of strong specific action followed by periods of not knowing what the hell is going on are natural for a man who is shed- ding layers of karma in his relaxation into truth.

    “As you open yourself to living at your edge, your deepest purpose will slowly begin to make itself known. In the meantime, you will experience layer after layer of purposes, each one getting closer and closer to the fullness of your deepest purpose. It is as if your deepest purpose is at the center of your being, and it is surrounded by layers of concentric circles, each circle being a lesser purpose. Your life consists of penetrating each circle, from the outside toward the center.

    The outer purposes are often the purposes you have inherited or learned from your parents and your childhood experiences. Perhaps your father was a fireman, so you wanted to be a fireman. Or, in reaction to him, you’ve decided to be an arsonist. In any case, the outer circles, the purposes you often apply yourself too early in life, are most likely only distant approximations of your deepest purpose.

    If your deepest purpose is to meditate and realize God, you might find that before you can totally dedicate yourself to this practice you must work your way through the concentric circles of playing with sexual partners, using drugs, getting married, raising children, developing a career, and finally, having dissolved your fascination and need to do all of that, getting down to the business of fulltime meditation.

    As you dissolve each layer and move toward the center, you will more and more be living from your deeper purposes, and then your deepest heart purpose, whatever that is, in every moment. However, you probably are not living your deepest purpose yet. You probably need to burn off the karma, or fulfill the need, of the present purpose by which you are fascinated and distracted.

    It’s easy to feel disappointed by life; success is never as fulfilling as you think it is going to be. But there is a reason for this. Successfully completing a lesser purpose doesn’t feel very good for very long, because it is simply preparation for advancing toward a greater embodiment of your deeper purpose. Each purpose, each mission, is meant to be fully lived to the point where it becomes empty, boring, and useless. Then it should be discarded. This is a sign of growth, but you may mistake it for a sign of failure.

    For instance, you may take on a business project, work at it for several years, and then suddenly find yourself totally disinterested. You know that if you stayed with it for another few years you would reap much greater financial reward than if you left the project now. But the project no longer calls you. You no longer feel interested in the project. You have developed skills over the last few years working on the project, but it hasn’t yet come to fruition. You may wonder, now that you have the skills, should you stick with it and bring the project to fruition, even though the work feels empty to you?

    Well, maybe you should stick with it. Maybe you are bailing out too soon, afraid of success or failure, or just too lazy to persevere. This is one possibility. Ask your close men friends if they feel you are simply losing steam, wimping out, or afraid to bring your project to completion. If they feel you are bailing out too soon, stick with it.

    However, there is also the possibility that you have completed your karma in this area. It is possible that this was one layer of purpose, which you have now fulfilled, on the way to another layer of purpose, closer to your deepest purpose.

    Among the signs of fulfilling or completing a layer of purpose are these:

    1. You suddenly have no interest whatsoever in a project or mission that, just previously, motivated you highly.

    2. You feel surprisingly free of any regrets whatsoever, for starting the project or for ending it.

    3. Even though you may not have the slightest idea of what you are going to do next, you feel clear, unconfused, and, especially, unburdened.

    4. You feel an increase in energy at the prospect of ceasing your involvement with the project.

    5. The project seems almost silly, like collecting shoelaces or wallpapering your house with gas station receipts. Sure, you could do it, but why would you want to?

    If you experience these signs, it is probably time to stop working on this project. You must end your involvement impeccably, however, making sure there are no loose ends and that you do not burden anybody’s life by stopping your involvement. This might take some time, but it is important that this layer of your purpose ends cleanly and does not create any new karma, or obligation, that will burden you or others in the future.

    The next layer of your unfolding purpose may make itself clear immediately. More often, however, it does not. After completing one layer of purpose, you might not know what to do with your life. You know that the old project is over for you, but you are not sure of what is next. At this point, you must wait for a vision.

    There is no way to rush this process. You may need to get an intermediary job to hold you over until the next layer of purpose makes itself clear. Or, perhaps you have enough money to simply wait. But in any case, it is important to open yourself to a vision of what is next. You stay open to a vision of your deeper purpose by not filling your time with distractions. Don’t watch TV or play computer games.

    Don’t go out drinking beer with your friends every night or start dating a bunch of women. Simply wait. You may wish to go on a retreat in a remote area and be by yourself. Whatever it is you decide to do, consciously keep yourself open and available to receiving a vision of what is next. It will come.

    When it comes, it usually won’t be a detailed vision. You will probably have a sense of what direction to move in, but the practical steps might not make themselves clear. When the impulse begins to arise, act on it. Don’t wait for the details. Learn by trial and error what it is you are to do.

    For instance, perhaps you were a stockbroker and then finished that particular layer of purpose. You saved up some money, so now you are waiting for a vision of your next layer. After three weeks of going crazy, not knowing what you are going to do with your life, you begin to feel that you want to work with people. You begin to fantasize about using your financial skills to help people set up their own businesses. You have a few friends who have great intentions to save the world, but they are lousy businessmen and can’t seem to get off the ground. So you call them and offer your help.

    As you help them, you continually feel for the “groove” of your purpose. You might have a few false starts. But, eventually, you find that dozens of non-profit groups are telephoning you, asking for your advice. It feels as if the universe is supporting you in this direction. You have no idea whether you can earn a living doing this, but it feels right for now. So you apply yourself fully to it. You give your gift 100%, without holding anything back.

    Soon, a wealthy man finds out about what you are doing. He admires your total commitment and your orientation to serve others. He becomes your patron. Now, you are set. You have a good income, you are doing what you really want to do, and you are helping others. You love what you do, so you generate love in those who come in contact with you. Your life feels full.

    And then, one day, a few years later, it is finished. This layer has dissolved. And the cycle begins again, and again, until you have penetrated all the layers into your deepest purpose. Then, you act fully, until that purpose, too, is dissolved in the bliss of the love that you are. “

  48. I screwed up the quote HTML

    This should have been quoted:

    “I learned a ton from this blog and how that this can help BP folk realize it has nothing to do with you but everything to do with you.”

    And then alternated with my comments that should not have been quoted. And then alternated back and forth

    And to the comment of emillkim September 7, 2017 at 3:59 pm. Perel definitely is not condoning the bad behavior of the protagonist in her essay. She is shedding awareness on how the protagonist fucked up. No one is saying the husband would allow the bad behavior. The faults of the protagonist led to act out her (as Jordan Peterson describes) Shadow Self in-appropriately. Perel is pointing out “how things are” for messy human brains. Her loyalty lies in “fixing” her clinical patient and in pointing out to us reading her essay, how things can happen for fucked up reasons.

    Your job is to not put yourself in a position with a woman like that. And to fix her if she has value and if she is tempted to transgress a LTR. You do that by either fixing you or fixing her (Hey Mitch) or fixing both. The protagonist in the story had an Unhealthy Pathology and Perel was shedding light on Why. Perel wasn’t advocating for her patients strategy or condoning it (she states that explicitly).

  49. Funny. I read mating in captivity years ago when trying to figure out how to revive dead bedroom in previous r’ship.

    I think MRP is going to be very helpful.

  50. emillkim

    “Right? He’s shoveling her bullshit”

    If you are referring to the protagonist in Perel’s essay. No. The protagonist Priya is shoveling her own bullshit and her husband is unaware she is a bull-shit shoveler. Perel is calling her patient out on her bullshit, without labeling it as such. She would label it as ignorance, when Perel brings awareness to the psychoanalyst’s table.

    If the husband knew about it, he would kick her to the curb or get her to stop the shoveling, depending on his abilities and his valuing of her. (obviously in his case, if he were to be aware, the children are confounding variables in his decision.

    This is also recursive to ASDGamer’s mention of the Netflix series Black Mirror, Episode “The Entire History of You” in which the husband Liam woke up from his fog and realized the sub-comms of his wife. The wife was shoveling bullshit, he was acute enough to pick up on it, but the paternity of the child confounded things.

    Dr. Laura Schlessinger would also castigate the husband (if he called up after being aware of her affair) for not actually picking up on the personality traits of the wife that were there for the reading all along. (Those traits admitted to by Priya had been going all her damned life.) And it shouldn’t be the surprise that it is to all the ignorant people in the story. Her traits have probably been insufferable to the husband for a long time. And she probably wore the pants in the family.

    Now is not always the time to go all butt-hurt, nor excuse, nor set limits, nor not be aware of what we all know is going on here.

  51. Okay…here’s an article about guys trying to get Ukrainicorns and getting ripped off, so maybe Mitch is not the fool.

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/apr/06/ukraine-wife-internet-romance-industry-online-scam

    Or maybe these guys only lost a few thousands instead of having years of their life wasted, wages garnished in support of a divorced hypgameous UKrainicorn, and being subjected to the whims of the fathers/husbands to slave labor prisoners of the federal penal system.

    Only time will tell.

  52. @pinelero
    The thing about cautionary tales like this article, in my opinion, is that they are just that. They are not predictive. I read stories like these in my researching the EE dating scene and they definitely helped inform how I went about it. What to watch out for. A key element in these guys getting fleeced is the pay-per-letter mechanism of interacting w these women, and/or the going through an agency that facilitates introductions. I used Elenas Models, a subscription service that works like any other online dating website. Not an easy place for women to make money. Possible, sure, but not easy.
    I also did not talk to thousands of women – I talked fairly extensively to about 10, and immediately nexted anyone who hinted at money or presents. When I went to visit, I met only the woman I liked the most, and that I had established a genuine connection with. She is now my wife – and yes, she’s a woman subject to the laws of hypergamy like all women, but she is very happy in our relationship and so am I. (the apparent “branch swinging” she was engaged with was her being curious about why this guy, who she’s talked to a couple years ago, was now contacting her out of the blue. A number of her previous contacts have done this – popped up again after a couple years, and she finds it interesting as to why. I also don’t rule out a looking for Plan B motive, but her stated reasons are very congruent to her personality. )
    Anyway, I tell ya I would do it again, and I would recommend it to a man genuinely interested in getting married, who is open and curious and willing to be patient with cultural differences and language challenges.
    Here’s why: I can be as alpha as it gets and learn all the game in the world, but it still would not make western women generally more attractive to me. Some of it is physical, sure, but most of it is the attitude of entitlement, the narcissism, the jaded-ness, and just the general sluttiness. I can’t tell you how many dates I went on, or how many flirtatious interactions I had , that just turned my stomach and had me looking for the quickest exit. I simply did not experience this in my interactions with EE women. I also did not experience most of them as wanting to escape to a better life – the ones I spent any time talking to simply wanted a good marriage to a good man.
    Yes, AWALT, but these countries are still very conservative compared to the West. Tho, I imagine it’s changed a lot for the younger age cohorts – the tourist I talked to was 33.
    This isn’t coupon-shopping or laziness on my part. It’s actually pretty difficult, and it does cost time and money, but for me and a number of other men I know of, it’s been well worth it.

  53. @Mitch

    Okay. So, first you say…

    The thing about cautionary tales like this article, in my opinion, is that they are just that. They are not predictive.

    Which would seem to nullify the value of such articles in your mind. But, then you say…

    I read stories like these in my researching the EE dating scene and they definitely helped inform how I went about it. What to watch out for.

    Which contradicts what you first said. How is it that one predictive article has value, but another does not?

    You’re right in saying that articles such as this are predictive; but, that doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable. As a friend of mine used to say, “The difference between a pessimist and a realist, is that the realist has history on his side”. The guys on this forum who have tried to help you have history on their side, too. It’s their experience that lends weight to their advice.

  54. @Mitch

    “(the apparent “branch swinging” she was engaged with was her being curious about why this guy, who she’s talked to a couple years ago, was now contacting her out of the blue. A number of her previous contacts have done this – popped up again after a couple years, and she finds it interesting as to why. I also don’t rule out a looking for Plan B motive, but her stated reasons are very congruent to her personality. )
    Anyway, I tell ya I would do it again, and I would recomend.”

    Did she keep the same email with your laptop? Is she now Mrs. Mitch Ucrainicorn?

    What reason would be congruent with the personality of a married woman in contact with her former suitors? Just soas I don’t get mad at the ole Lady fer nuttin.,

  55. We have Ukrainians and Russians and Polish and Serbian and Arab and Chinese and Japanese and Thai and Philippino and Indian and Brits and Aussies and Italian and German and French and African and pacific islanders and Canadian and native American and….

    I’d bet no where else on the planet has the variety of women that we have right here in the USA.

    And if you’d travel to and spend time in major cities, especially New York, you’d find plenty that just got here.nthey come in every day like produce.

    I’ve never fully understood the desire to get on a plane, or multiple planes, to go somewhere outside of the states for a woman. At least not one to keep.

    Oh, and I call bullshit on the excuse that every woman here is some kind of raging whore too. We have a bunch of whores here no doubt, and I don’t hate on whores btw, but it’s not the vast majority by a long shot.

    American women can be more difficult. So is calculus. So what? Women here are more difficult because men here are pre whipped by the strong American FI network. Unwhip yourself and you’ll have very few problems.

    If things are working out for you Mitch, that’s great. But if you want an insurance policy, I suggest you swallow that red pill instead of holding it under your tongue.

    You’ve been du!y warned.

    Shchasty.

    ( ask the wife )

  56. Marley, there’s nothing inconsistent in what I said. The cautionary tales have value, in that they informed my approach and gave clues as to what to watch out for, and what not to do. But they are not predictive – as in predicting that any man seeking a Ukrainian wife is going to get fleeced. I know from my own experience and that of other men that the outcome can be quite satisfying. And the extensive experience of men related here also has value for the same reasons, but also not predictive. How many men who have commented have actually done what I have done? I recall exactly one guy, and he too said he’d do it again. Dirka s experience was interesting, but that is certainly not predictive of what my experience is going to be. Cautionary, sure, but not predictive.

    @stuffin
    Didn’t say it was ok, but she’s kind of a student of human nature, and her saying that it’s just interesting for her to try and understand what these guys are thinking is congruent with that. Also, doesn’t mean I haven’t taken it as a kind of wake-up call either. I definitely have.

    Also, it makes absolutely no sense that at 45 yo, she’s actively or consciously looking to branch swing. She’s an extremely beautiful women who spent 17 years looking for her next husband- both local and abroad- and she’s now invested 18 months building a relationship with me, adjusting to a very different new life, where she feels safe, comfortable and happy. She’s not just going to go run off because some guy on the other side of the country might have a wee bit more to offer. (Sorry to disappoint you guys, but I am not the pathetic loser you imagine me to be. ) And if she was a good enough actress to fake me out, she definitely wouldn’t be with me; she’d be in Hollywood showing Meryl Streep who’s boss.

  57. @Mitch

    I guess you’re right, Mitch. Ours is the advice of the ordinary, bitter man. How could we presume to wax philosophic on the special, snowflakiness of your situation?

  58. @Mitch

    “Didn’t say it was ok, but she’s kind of a student of human nature,”

    We all are,just not all of us are writing a paper on human nature,you should take a cue from this gal and study up some.

    ” and her saying that it’s just interesting for her to try and understand what these guys are thinking is congruent with that.”

    Oh so she isn’t writing a paper?Is she tucking away facts for future reference? Is male pain,interest, just entertainment for this gal? Or is she studying hard numbers,financials,other prospects?

    ” Also, doesn’t mean I haven’t taken it as a kind of wake-up call either. I definitely have.”

    Okay numb nuts,wake up when you have to.
    Do you feel guilty and have some need to give it all away?

  59. @blax
    I’d bet no where else on the planet has the variety of women that we have right here in the USA.

    Sure, but how do you actually filter in an efficient manner for what you are actually looking for? That was the crux of the problem for me. It just seemed like I had to shuck too many oysters to find the pearl, and it seemed like the EE dating site I stumbled on had a denser pool of potential pearls. It seemed that way to me. It definitely wouldn’t be the right choice for everybody, maybe not even most guys, because I wouldn’t say it is necessarily easier.

    Certainly didn’t mean to imply all or even most women are raging whores. I met plenty of nice women, but out of the ones I found attractive the vast majority were either entitled and/or narcissistic, and/or too slutty for my taste. Not all by any means, but far too many.

  60. @Mitch

    Nope. Unfortunately, there are way too many guys with stories similar to mine. I’ll be fortunate if I’m able to absorb just a small amount of the wisdom that’s contained on this blog. And, I realize that, even at 59, I’m so far behind the power curve that I’d never presume to know better than these guys when it comes to intersexual relationship dynamics.

    That seems to be the difference between you and me: I’m consciously incompetent; but, you’re unconsciously incompetent.

  61. @Mitch

    “Also, it makes absolutely no sense that at 45 yo, she’s actively or consciously looking to branch swing.”

    Let me get this straight,she is 45 and you are the biggest, strongest, most intelligent and fertile man she has ever met. She is so in love with you and wants to get old together. Hmm !

    ” She’s an extremely beautiful women who spent 17 years looking for her next husband- both local and abroad- and she’s now invested 18 months building a relationship with me”

    With you and apparently a few others were likely prospects as well. What I really like is the time line,you are the best prospect in 17 years,was she missing something or are you? Sounds as if you invested 18 months in a gal that is hooked on looking for a husband.

    ,” adjusting to a very different new life, where she feels safe, comfortable and happy. She’s not just going to go run off because some guy on the other side of the country might have a wee bit more to offer.”

    Well not completely different,she still has the same virtual orbiters. Ever wonder about saving a gal and then maybe she feels safe and comfortable then she is happy about this situ. She would then reciprocate and make you happy right? You are super man.

    “(Sorry to disappoint you guys, but I am not the pathetic loser you imagine me to be. ) And if she was a good enough actress to fake me out, she definitely wouldn’t be with me; she’d be in Hollywood showing Meryl Streep who’s boss.”

    Well nobody can fool old Mitch,you can snow on the snow man,you can sheer some sheep,but nobody pulls the wool over old Mitch’s eyes.

    Are you trying to convince me or your self. Don’t shit yourself man this chick was smarter than you when she was six years old,Numb Nuts.

  62. @marley

    You’re taking this way too literally or personally or something because you continue to not get what I’m saying. I’m not presuming that I know more about inter-sexual dynamics than other men on this blog – at all, and I’ve been very clear that I don’t understand RP theory all that deeply, and that I’ve got a lot to learn. I’ve said that over and over again. I don’t disagree with RP theory to the extent that I understand it. But no matter how RP proficient I ever become, I would never presume to *insist* that I know what’s best for any individual man. I could tell him what I see, (hey, brah, looks to me like you’re headed for big trouble!) but I wouldn’t presume that I know his situation and circumstances and abilities to deal with it better than he does. That’s what you’re doing, and bro, it’s wrong. It’s really wrong.

    I hear guys talking about tribal wisdom and learning from those with more experience, etc. That is all good and vitally important, but I think a lot of you are confusing that concept with ‘do exactly as I say because I know better than you what’s best for you,’ the implication being that I know you (and your) wife better than you know yourself. How do you not get how absurd that is? That’s what I truly don’t get here.

  63. Stuffin
    Let me get this straight,she is 45 and you are the biggest, strongest, most intelligent and fertile man she has ever met.

    I’m sure I’m not the biggest, strongest and most fertile man she’s ever met. I probably compete very well in intelligence, tho. But out of all the men that have invited her to marry, and there have been quite a few- I have the best overall collection of qualities that she is looking for in a ltr at this point in her life. No need to stretch the imagination here.

  64. Absolutely not. Which is why I come here. I was raised on decades-worth of Blue Pill “wisdom” and need to hear just the opposite now.

    The last thing you’ll hear me do is ask for advice, then vehemently argue why what I’ve been given is wrong. That disingenuous. The person who does that is the person who wants to hear praise for “getting it right”.

  65. @Mitch

    “I’m sure I’m not the biggest, strongest and most fertile man she’s ever met. I probably compete very well in intelligence, tho. But out of all the men that have invited her to marry, and there have been quite a few- I have the best overall collection of qualities that she is looking for in a ltr at this point in her life. No need to stretch the imagination here.”

    Sorry Mitch I guess I left out good lookin and intelligent. Maybe that after 45 years if a man is smart enough not to loose it in a poker game,at least till he gets home he is smart enough for her.At this point in her life she is probably looking for a guy that can pay the rent and feed bill maybe even some nice threads. She already has a son and doesn’t need another,soon she won’t need sex and will only use it for power. This list of requirements doesn’t include intelligence as we know it. You are beyond the stretch of imagination ,Numb Nuts.

  66. @Mitch

    “but out of the ones I found attractive the vast majority were either entitled and/or narcissistic, and/or too slutty for my taste. Not all by any means, but far too many.”

    Sure they are. Power skews the mind, and inflates the ego. And comeliness is power.

    If what you find MOST attractive in women will be non-entitlement and non-narcissism, you’ll stop having to deal with over-entitled narcissists… 🙂

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