Sexual Zoning

sex_zone

Höllenhund brought up an interesting thought a few weeks ago:

This reminds me of something I wanted to ask here in general. The general narrative about MGTOW in the ‘sphere is that they are “avoiding women”. A more general narrative pushed in the mainstream media by Zimbardo, Hymowitz, Milo and other blue/purple pill journalists is that a growing number of young men are avoiding women.

What does “avoiding women” precisely mean in the current socio-cultural context in the West? The word “avoid” entails some sort of active, deliberate, protective measure. My problem with that is that the “avoidance of women”, or a breakaway from women doesn’t look like that at all in practice today, because the social context of male-female interaction has changed completely in the last 2-3 decades.

This is something our pal Novaseeker has described before. In the bygone Western social system, young people were expected to regularly interact with one another in controlled, regulated environments, in a way that fostered productive, long-term, monogamous, assortative relationships. This was a sort of “holistic” milieu, so to speak, where young people treated one another as potential future partners, sexual and otherwise, in a socially regulated manner, in all cases when they were permitted to interact. This was even the norm in workplaces where both men and women were present. The average man found a girlfriend through his extended family or social circle, because families and social circles were normally large.

What we have today is the complete opposite: “sexual zoning”. Some mixed-sex environments, like the workplace, schools and campuses, are made completely asexual – sterile, so to speak. No sexualized interactions are permitted to take place. This is demanded by law and expected by society. In such environments, you’re supposed to treat members of the opposite sex strictly as colleagues or professionals, non-sexual beings. (Hot men are allowed to get away with more, of course, but that’s another issue.) Other mixed-sex environments, on the other hand, like nightclubs, are expected to be full-on sexual. Everybody there knows that all interactions entail the future possibility of casual sex. It’s basically a meat market. You’re expected to hit on girls, and girls expect to be hit on by attractive men. Socializing in these environments requires action, engagement. If you want to find a partner, either just for sex or something more, you have to go there, you have to have Game etc.

In other words, avoidance of women in the old days was an anti-social act of disengagement that was frowned upon. Today, avoidance of women merely means that you’re not expending excess energy and time to do certain things. It’s an “action” with few or no social repercussions – you won’t be socially ostracized or something. But technically it’s not an action. You’re basically “avoiding” women by not hitting the clubs on Saturday night. You’re avoiding them through simple inaction. You can have a full-time job, or go to college, have a social circle, have hobbies, buddies etc., basically a normie life, and still “avoid” women.

I thought this was an interesting observation because there is a stark contradiction in how these sexual zones are presented to men by women. From an old books perspective, men are still expected to be the initiators. It is incumbent upon men to be the sex that approaches and expresses intimate interest in women, and men who don’t, or who fail to build themselves into acceptable mates for women are shamed as being perpetual adolescents or just “giving up.” Our feminine-primary social mandate still promotes the expectation that men will prepare for, and initiate with, women.

However, from a new books perspective men are, as Höllenhund illustrates, expected to know their place in respect to whatever sexual zone they find themselves in, as well as having an understanding of how they are perceived in the SMP. So, in an asexual zone such as a college campus or the workplace, men are expected to know their SMV and act or not act accordingly. Men not meeting or exceeding what would make for an optimized Hypergamy with women are expected not to initiate or approach. In fact, this expected understanding extends to sexual zones and fosters the avoidance Höllenhund talks about here.

For all of the handwringing from feminine-primary gender pundits about men ‘dropping out’ of life or the SMP, it is this contradiction in atmosphere that promotes the avoidance. Hypergamy, being the prime directive of westernized societies, is figuratively best served when women are in complete and unilateral control of sexual selection. Thus, we see laws and social dictates installed to encourage men to self-select themselves out of the process and make this selection easier for women. Men will be shamed for not initiating and not approaching, but simultaneously be held accountable for as much as hate crimes if they step outside what they are expected to know are their appropriate sexual zones.

http://time.com/3852117/millennials-sex-parents-boomers/

Recently there’s been a spate of articles all attempting to explain why millennials aren’t getting after it in an age when it’s never been easier to hook up. Try as they will, nearly all of the explanations fail to account for how sexual zoning has affected the sexual marketplace today. Millennials have the ‘hook up generation’ reputation, but statistically they’re not doing much fucking.

Noah Patterson, 18, likes to sit in front of several screens simultaneously: a work project, a YouTube clip, a video game. To shut it all down for a date or even a one-night stand seems like a waste. “For an average date, you’re going to spend at least two hours, and in that two hours I won’t be doing something I enjoy,” he said.

It’s not that he doesn’t like women. “I enjoy their companionship, but it’s not a significant part of life,” said Patterson, a Web designer in Bellingham, Washington.

He has never had sex, although he likes porn. “I’d rather be watching YouTube videos and making money.” Sex, he said, is “not going to be something people ask you for on your résumé.”

One aspect that these largely millennial writers themselves seem oblivious to is the complexities of sexual zones that shift constantly for guys. In 2016 hooking up is easy, we’ve got Red Pill awareness and we have instantaneous communication, but what we don’t have are clearly defined sexual zones. Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.

This is a common refrain from MGTOWs. It’s usually some variation of  “why should I waste my time trying to untangle some girl’s head just to put myself at risk of a sexual harassment or rape accusation?”

Fred Flange had this comment a few weeks ago:

Co-sign, and this “soft MGTOW” observation ties in nicely with the WashPost’s “no sex please we’re collegiate” article. MGTOW is now socially subsidized and easy to implement: just do nothing! At college, don’t engage in class, or even better, “attend” the lectures on-line. Say no more in class or lab than you must, then leave. Start no convos, you won’t be dragged into any. All of this goes for cubicle workers: in the lunchroom, stare at your phone, or eat at your desk, or if you can, get outside but go alone. No feelings caught, no feelings hurt. Everybody gets nothing, therefore everybody wins.

Eventually you can learn the fine art of disappearance in urban settings: yes you occupy space, but other than someone bumping into you, it is possible to go anywhere without your registering with anyone in the vicinity, not even cops. You can switch it on and off like a light.

One possible corollary to look for: see if the “bros before homes” shaming begins to die down. It should. Because before that you patriamalarkey-preaching Tumblr-inas insisted you wanted that cheesy-bro to go? He’s GONE! Soft MGTOW is the mandated social paradigm, outside of “safe social zones” like public streets, malls, clubs, etc. plus in some workplaces and colleges it’s law. You’re going to complain about men obeying the law?

There’s also no shortage of articles decrying the absence of boys and young men these days too. The frequent bugbear in these always point to guys ‘dropping out’ and playing X-Box all day. From America’s Lost Boys:

Young men, significantly more so than young women, are stuck in life. Research released in May from the Pew Center documented a historic demographic shift: American men aged 18-30 are now statistically more likely to be living with their parents than with a romantic partner. This trend is significant, for one simple reason: Twenty- and thirtysomething men who are living at home, working part-time or not at all, are unlikely to be preparing for marriage. Hurst’s research says that these men are single, unoccupied, and fine with that—because their happiness doesn’t depend on whether they are growing up and living life.

Now, granted, this article presumes men’s adulthood ought to be measured by his capacity to get involved with a woman, support a family and maintain a steady job. It’s very hard for writers who tackle this topic to pull their heads out of the old books reasonings. Thus, the go-to answer to the question of ‘why do guys drop out?’ is video games. It’s far easier to goof on men as a whole if they can be made to look juvenile, lazy or stupid to the point men not knowing what’s good for them.

It would take a real effort to tackle the larger reasons as to why men drop out, and men like Samuel James (article author) would be forced to acknowledge the disincentives for men to participate in what his old books reasonings tell him is some mutually beneficial arrangement. Those disincentives don’t paint women in a very flattering light, so it’s much easier to dismiss them as garden variety misogyny.

The drop out generation are content with their lot in life because they’ve accepted the realities of a social order that debases men and manhood to being appliances to better serve women’s imperatives. And the risks of investing themselves in a relationship or finding the inner will to become better men for the sake of “growing up” are significant when the rules of engagement and the acceptable sexual zones are constantly changing.

The Damage Done By ‘Mattress Girl’

“Even in less extreme situations, young men are more skeptical of women’s ability or propensity to consent to sex, which some women on campus consider demeaning.

“I find that men are more and more interested in ensuring that I’m consenting before sex, which would seem like a good thing,” Columbia student Dylan Hunzeker said. “But sometimes I don’t necessarily feel that way. Especially when I have to answer a man’s question: ‘are you sure you’re not too drunk?’ Or ‘you want to have sex with me?’ In a sense, it’s annoying and debilitating to be constantly questioned about whether or not I have agency and am a sexual human being.”

“Men are scared of women on campus now, and fear breeds anger and prejudice. Women are frustrated by men, which inspires a lack of desire to collaborate for solutions.”

I would argue that a large majority of men accused of sexual harassment or even just suspected of impropriety are men who’ve found themselves in an environment they believed was an acceptable sexual zone. We are fast approaching a time when all zones will be so arbitrary and ambiguous that every environment with sexual potential will be avoided. This will have the effect of putting women into unilateral control of their own Hypergamy. It will be a state of Sadie Hawkins world – only women will make approaches on men and only those who match her Hypergamous ideal, an ideal fostered and reinforced by a steady diet of social media ego inflation.

It’s ironic that authors bemoaning the drop out generation of men never acknowledge the other side of the disincentives for men – those generated by a feminine-primary social narrative – the generation of women who remain unmarried well into their middle age. When this is explored, once again, it’s the result of the juvenile, ridiculous men that same narrative has created for itself.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

508 comments on “Sexual Zoning

  1. @mersonia

    Ya you’re failing to appreciate the reality of self selected groups. So you can’t grok how your reality could be true and that this chart could reflect society at large

    It’s fine.

  2. Well, but there is no “society at large market” — SMs and MMs are all local in nature. So local characteristics are decisive in what you will experience as actual market conditions depending on where you are. When you try to smush in the fatties from appalachia with the hotties from South Florida, of course it’s going to get distorted, because those are distinct markets, just like the SM in, say, Pittsburgh is different from the SM in Manhattan. So, of course all you have are local markets, and those are going to determine how guys view it and experience it — if anything the idea of a “society at large market” is what is illusory, because there is no national market. All markets are local.

  3. ” . . . this chart could reflect society at large . . .”

    . . . if the best looking women were the best looking women.

  4. Goddamn the whole part of the chart was just to have fun and see for curiosity’s sake where everyone rated girls…

    Then everyone (except scray lol) consistently said “yeah the girls in that chart seem to be overrated, the 8’s and 9’s especially” So that was interesting because you’ve got guys who like white girls and guys who don’t rating girls about the same

    Huh, thats neat, so lets see where all that goes…

    It was just a fun thing for curiosity to see how all this panned out, and it also helps for understanding FRs in how guys rate girls.

    But then scray has to come in all super serious and be like “NO NO you guys are KEYBORDJOCKERS. If you don’t think jennifer lawrence is a 10 you must be a virgin loser lololol.”

    lol

    Jesus, we’re just trying to figure out what people think is all. Thanks mr partypooper

  5. @nova

    When you try to smush in the fatties from appalachia with the hotties from South Florida, of course it’s going to get distorted, because those are distinct markets, just like the SM in, say, Pittsburgh is different from the SM in Manhattan. So, of course all you have are local markets, and those are going to determine how guys view it and experience it — if anything the idea of a “society at large market” is what is illusory, because there is no national market. All markets are local.

    right, but we were just trying to get a standardized list. You might only get a 6 max at one location, a 8 max at another, but comparing the two we could see the 8 is prettier than the 6. It just gets confusing if you have a “appalachia 10” versus a “florida 10”

  6. @Hank

    Well never said Jenny was a 10….

    I am saying that this is a discussion that could be useful but tends to devolve into KJ stuff

    Liiike having a real baseline of actual SMV is very helpful in field…this other for fun stuff is for the birds.

  7. How many of us here would be happy chasing a 36 year divorcee with 1.9 children?

    How many of us here would be happy that we beat out a 35 year old Uncle Fester for her?

    Just to give a rough idea of what is meant by “average.”

  8. @kfg

    As usual I addressed the point you bring up here a long time ago.

    Do dudes want to be banging 5’s? Is the top 20% that rosy?
    Diff questions from what those percentiles represent in fact.

  9. “Liiike having a real baseline of actual SMV is very helpful in field…”

    You need to fix the end points as well, not just the average.

    “Well never said Jenny was a 10….”

    And what I said is that bottom right girl is not a 10, even though she gets my personal preference bonus point. Wouldn’t be ashamed to be seen with her, but wouldn’t take her around to show off either.

  10. Scray
    the reason why PRETEND provider game works is that there’s the promise of PROVIDING.

    (hint: it falls apart once the lie is up)

    LOL, so I can send Urkel out with five Benjamins and he’ll totally score with 8’s, right? Like you never saw the RSD video where a doctor or dentist who is just oozing Provider I forget which, gets blown out by some HB7, then when Tyler says the exact same things she just giggles?

    C’mon dude, you’re pitching Sugar Baby game. “Money talks”. Like Mistery paid for all the drinks for all the girls in all his vids?

    You just in an argumentative, “imma argue with everyone about everything”, mood or what?

  11. @Rollo:

    Ignoring the discussion of Jennifer Lawrence’s rating, and returning to the original topic of the post, did you see this article from the WP?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2016/10/17/when-i-was-accused-of-groping-a-woman-i-was-mad-like-trump-then-i-repented/

    Here’s a guy who was bad with women until he read “The Game”, learned some PUA techniques, and enjoyed increased success with the ladies (while his internals remained beta). Then, he ignored the “don’t shit where you eat” rule (first mistake), got wasted around colleagues (bigger mistake), and sank a promising career when he drunkenly came onto a co-worker in an elevator (even bigger mistake, and which is now “sexual assualt”). Maybe a better-looking guy with better game could have gotten away with a risky endeavor like this, but from seeing his author pic, this dude was doomed. He’s now apparently made a new career of supplicating to the FI for forgiveness.

    Here is a man who found PUA but without TRP he only had half the story and paid a major price for it.

  12. @anon

    Didn’t say you’d get her, I said it’d put you on her radar.

    I also said that game works better, which is why your Tyler example is whatever

    I’m not pitching it, I’m just citing it as an approach. You don’t seem to get that most guys use provider game as a default when dealing with women at their looks level.

    I didn’t say it was game or that it was the approach TRP advocates so your quip about Mystery makes no sense either.

  13. @AR

    “Like you never saw the RSD video where a doctor or dentist who is just oozing Provider I forget which, gets blown out by some HB7, then when Tyler says the exact same things she just giggles?”

    That wasnt provider game tho.

    The guy announced himself as a provider (stating his job i think) and then started acting like lover, seducing them, (incongrunce), which prompted shittests, which he did not pass, thus cementing himself as a provider “conman”. Trying to get in their panties without providing. Thats an offense in most jurisdictions. He did not play provider game after the job announcement.

    Im not following this provider discussion, just clearing this up.

  14. @Scray, dude, you’re all over the place.

    I said that an HB8 won’t see most men. She just won’t see them, because they don’t arouse her hypergamy. You said that a man who burns enough cash will be “seen” by her. Ok, I’ll give you this: she’ll probably be either looking to get her chunk of cash, or laughing at him.

    I’m not pitching it, I’m just citing it as an approach.

    LOL! You just told me to go infield and burn $300 to $500 just to prove how it works to myself. Don’t you read your own words?

    You don’t seem to get that most guys use provider game as a default when dealing with women at their looks level.

    Duh, I just told you that. You’re telling me “You don’t get what you just said”, does that make sense?

    I think you just want to argue, for the sake of arguing. What’s the deal, you got the debate on in the background or something?

  15. @scray

    Liiike having a real baseline of actual SMV is very helpful in field

    well theres the difference

    The chart we want to make is an objective chart of rating 1-10. Obviously, there will be some variation, but we can get one that most people agree on.

    Now, then there is a DIFFERENT chart of SMV, of how things relate in our current society overrun with fatties lol.

    So, first you have an objective chart thats just of 1-10 to use as a guideline. Then you have a second one that shows how the market actually functions nowdays with the lack of 7+ girls.

    I think we are talking about two very different things.

  16. Shucks, if people don’t like the HB 1 to HB 10 chart then the web is full of pix, make another one if that’s the deal.

  17. @anon

    No I’ve been consistent. Go drop some $$ and see if it doesn’t PUT YOU ON HER RADAR (what I said).

    And by saying you agree that the woman will notice him because she wants to either get some resources from the man or get her ego stroked, you have agreed with me. GG

    We ain’t arguing anymore, hoss, since you conceded and all 🙂

    @Hank

    Yes I know.

    One is useful IN FIELD….2016 SMV.

    The other is KJ mental masturbation

    And tbh, 2016 SMV dictates all. The field rules all. The chicks getting treated like 7s are 7s. Sorry. The market has spoken. These appeals to mount Olympus are gay.

  18. @Hank

    Nah. I noted the distinction at the outset. As usual most people blow past nuance until 30 posts later tho

    The objective chart you’re after falls under the category of personal Toth bullshit….which I already said is fine, but those are personal standards and won’t help with tactics in field.

  19. @Culum

    “No wonder I get so many IOIs just walking through a club..”

    duh… ‘Sherman’…lol

    “it’s closing/leading that I’m focussing on now.”

    p in v!…
    p in v!…
    p in v!…

    lol…

    good luck!

  20. @Blax, not into torn clothing chic, but I will say she fills hers out very well. and how many chodes in your neighborhood will tell her that?

  21. Scray
    No I’ve been consistent. Go drop some $$ and see if it doesn’t PUT YOU ON HER RADAR (what I said).

    Not quite, you actually said:

    She doesn’t see them until they are providing her with resources/benefits should be the saying.

    So you’ve gone from “provide HER with resources” to “spend money in her presence”. More goalpost moving.

    We both agree that inner game beats Provider game, right? So I’m saying inner Game will work better to get an HB8’s attention than just spending money.

    Why do you want to argue with that? Debate’s over by now, so that can’t be what’s got you riled up.

  22. @HABD

    3 pleasant surprises…

    I was pleasantly surprised by a unicorn blushing when her pregnancy was announced to the family. Old set of books still lives in some isolated places.

    I was pleasantly surprised in a NSFW (not safe for wife) way when wife’s new doctor flirted with me out of wife’s sight. Doc is a magazine cover…aka model…I stretch the truth a bit since she’s about 20 lbs overweight, but a face that draws many looks.

    I was pleasantly surprised by a lesbian reaching out to touch me (she’s more bisexual than lesbian), so of course I touched her over the bar…she keeps out of range when she’s not behind the bar, lol. Sure, she feels REEEALLY safe around me like a buddy once told me, lol, because I’m SO OLD. I asked her to get me a fork (nobody else ever does this) and she called me “Princess” (I just smiled at her little shit test), then she went and got it. Call it reluctant compliance and attraction.

  23. @AR

    So you’ve gone from “provide HER with resources” to “spend money in her presence”. More goalpost moving.

    Spending a lot of money attracts BB-seekers who hope that you will spend your money on them. I don’t see any big issue here.

  24. Spending a lot of money attracts BB-seekers who hope that you will spend your money on them.

    Are HB8’s typically seeking Beta Bucks? Or are Beta Bucks seeking them?

    Inner game FTW.

  25. In fact this whole exchange is surreal.

    It should be someone else arguing “Just spend money! That’s how to get HB 8’s to notice you!” and it should be Scray saying “Nope. Get congruent Game. Don’t go Provider”.

    And I should be sipping an adult beverage and LOL’ing at the whole thing.

  26. @anon

    I never argued that provider game (you don’t know what that is apparently, since you differentiate it from providing resources/benefits) beats normal game, so congrats on the strawman.

    I also didn’t argue that provider game was to be followed or pursued over normal game, so another strawman.

    You don’t really seem to grasp a lot of the fundamentals necessary to even have this discussion so Lol, later.

  27. Whoa. Just finished up a hit and run…no literally. A 250# cornrowed dude lit up his brakes and plunged into my crappy Honda CR-V. I got out, he peered at me, saw no physical issues (must be a doctor) and slowly pulled away. I have been so chill lately (thanks bros!) I knew an intervention would be a waste of time.

    Got plates, car model. Incoming cliche – they don’t match. Anyhoo, I could be worse. 1000 mg APAP and and bottle of blended red. Much better.

    I’m solid, car damage, shrug. He was leaking radiator fluid. Drip, drip away from accident.

    Moral: install tow hitch.

    Went laser vision on my woman tonight. With said red blend she prattled on incessantly, I just stared, and after 15″ she said “I’m going on and on and you stare at me. I know what your doing.” Blah blah dirty talk, you fill in the rest.

  28. @Sun
    ” The last time one DID try to force herself in to existence by insulting me then bragging about her PhD in something-or-other, I told her to drop 150lbs if she wanted her opinion to matter to me.”

    Ouch! Harsh dude.

    I had a PhD fattie hit on me too but I had to break my dry spell…

  29. @Anonymous Reader

    “A couple of years back I found that I could walk into a coffee joint in “grey man” mode, sit down, and actually make myself “pop” into view. Actually had a couple of 20-something girls look startled one time when I did this trick; changing state from “grey” to “HERE!” changed my subcommunications which made me “pop” into their field of view. Probably in their perception I just magically appeared in a chair at the next table. Because they literally did not notice me walk in and sit down. ”

    Man I’d like to know more about that changing state thing…

  30. @Sentient & @Scray – lol, I am working out even though I don’t look like George.

    My PT finally got me doing bench presses yesterday. I’m still only using the bar with no weights so gotta long way to go. But I’ve started and I’m staying the course.

    As for passive IOIs, I get a fair few in clubs. Or I’ve started to in the last 1-1.5 years as I’ve improved my game (not so often before that). Usually from HB6-7s (sometimes lower, very occasionally higher) and usually a lot younger than

    I’d say I average about 3-4 clear IOIs/AIs each time I go to a club – eye contact, smile, the girl opening me or touching me etc. And the vast majority of sets I open, open up and engage well. There are probably a lot more passive AIs (proximity, putting her drink down and coming and standing next to me at the bar or “accidentally” touching me etc) than 3-4, but I’m probably not noticing some of those.

    So I’m doing fine on that front – I just need to lead, escalate and close. My main goals for the November blitz..

  31. Lol I just saw HABD’s response – “Sherman” heh.

    Laser focus on P in V for Nov – no stair stepping – probably about 13-15 nights out

  32. (ie, as Blax says, looks have a pretty solid subjective variance between guys, and the only objective basis everyone can agree on is “the market” – observed/revealed behaviour in field. And in the field, because all of America is getting fatter, fat chicks are indeed getting treated like 7s, so they ARE 7s on the hierarchy because the 6s and 5s are even fatter..)

  33. Cut guys focus on the food intake. Realistically, no amount of exercise alone will produce GSP definition.

    Fitness, is not simple math i.e. more exercise = more calorie loss and better looks.

    Here’s how I see it: TRM guy wants to lose 15 pounds, gain muscle and definition. That’s 3500 Cal x 15 = 52500 Cal net loss by exercise, diet or combination.

    Guy starts cardio, lifting. He’s motivated so is in the gym 3 hrs.

    Running caloric Burn for 195# ~/= 147 Calories for every mile run at 8.5 min/mile. Good clip. He’s overweight, so every day he runs 3 miles x 147 Calories. 447 calorie loss 25 minutes.

    2.5 hours left in his day. He starts lifting. Lifting caloric burn: 270/hr x 2.5 = 675 Calories

    675 + 447 = 1122 Calories lost through exercise.

    He cuts 500 calories out of his diet, he’s now at 1622 Calories.

    52500 Calories needed to loose/1622 Calories per day = 32 days.

    Now it get tricky. This process assumes he performs with robotic regularity, no weekend cheating, with GSP style discipline.

    Mere humans don’t function this way. Most of us would fail with this program. By fail I mean cheat, puss out, get injured and put off our goals indefinitely til the orthopod tells us our 30-40 y.o. torn Achilles tendon/rotator/ACL is ready for action again…but we all know the lost time out of the gym just makes our goals less achievable as we didn’t drop our intake by 1622 Calories a day or even half that to accommodate for the exercise loss. And we get distracted by reading comments at TRM rather than exercising…

    Even a PT designed 90 day plan is tough to do as they are generally limping their clients through the machines ruining the intensity level with talk and distraction. Moreover, PT’s and exercise trainers can’t monetize the process of not eating. They can monetize exercise programs with those little cards that people fill out in the gym. It’s too damn hard to incentivise not eating. We’re too addicted. Hence Jenny Craig and such.

    The exercise/medical industry has given up trying to get people to lose weight without lining their own pockets. Your primary physician, PT, trainer job is perfunctory to maximize clients through the door. If there is improvement long term, yay, but not required.

    Wrap up analogy: For the average guy it’s easier to gain wealth by not spending than earning more as we can realistically only work x hrs a day but we can lower our output to bare minimum levels using the magic of compound interest. Ditto with weight loss. There is a realistic limit to our exercise ability, but we all would lose weight eating ~1200 a day. No exercise required.

  34. Rollo,

    Thanks for that response a few pages with the Brazil video. Amazing. The blinders on strong, independent women never ceases to amaze. I actually lived in Brazil myself for almost three years around the millenium. That was my first inadvertent bit of RP awakening. The Brasilieras love to lace it up against the gringas too. The girls in that vid were playing innocent, ha ha. I know how they are with gringas. Naturally, the either fat or diet-shake, Gwyneth-hipped gringas wouldn’t take up the bikini gauntlet on the beaches very often. I saw one of the greatest tantrums by a blonde, mediocre-bodied American girl who was not happy at all about being demoted from her stateside 8 status to being a Rio 4. Loved it. I hope it’s what I think about during my death rattle.

  35. EHIntellect

    There is a realistic limit to our exercise ability, but we all would lose weight eating ~1200 a day. No exercise required.

    Word. I did exactly this. dropped 20LBS in 6 weeks. Just disciplined eating and negligible activity based burn. No running, just walked 3 miles a day 3-4 days a week. Under an hour.

  36. Yeah but check on GSP’s body a week after his fight. He’s likely to have gained back 5 pounds of water weight and lost some of that cut. Those guys often lose tons of fluid to make weight.

    He looks normal here;

    http://www.baltimoremartialarts.com/georges-st-pierre-manager-shari-spencer-part-ways/

    Plus he’s a pro fighter. He’s lifting, sparring, drilling, doing Jiu-Jitsu (burns calories like crazy), dieting for his fights etc. The guy is active 8 hours a day most likely. It would be like trying to have the chipping skills of Rory even though you’re working 50 hours a week. Rory is a PRO golfer.

    As far as cutting calories and lifting to get cut…watch out. Your moods and hormonal state will be in the shitter. Your T-levels are likely to plummet because you’re ripping up muscle and not eating enough to recover. That is a high stress state and cortisol will be high. And I think cortisol and T are a ying-yang duo aren’t they? You’re the doctor, Intellect. What say you?

    I think most guys try to change their bodies too quickly. If you’re lifting, doing cardio and eating 1600 calories, yeah you’ll drop fat but your muscle won’t be growing much, if at all, and the moment you break from your insane regimen, your body will store fat with surprising efficiency. High cortisol leads to fat storage. This isn’t even talking about injuries and elevated susceptibility to illness. Your immune system will be shot as will your nads if you are post 35. I have a bud who was a zany, cardio, pushup, pullup, burpie guy. He trained like a Seal in his late thirties and very nearly died in the hospital from some minor abrasion that engulfed his battered immune system.

    My tips (everyone has their health tips, sorry);

    -Stop any and all sugar, including fruit juice, smoothies. This will lead you to a realistic appetite for one thing and it will keep your body’s fat storage hormones knocked down. You actually go through your day somehow bored because you will pass hours without being hungry. The upcoming entertainment of eating (which is always there for sugar eaters) is gone and it feels weird in a way. Like there is nothing to do if can’t dump some rich or sugary stuff in your face every few hours minimum. No sugar. It’s a huge move in life. This is absolutely number one to me. A non-sugar guy who simply walks for 45 minutes five times a week will likely be healthier than any workout, protein-sugar smoothie maniac and maybe far healthier.

    -Do heavy compound lifts and allow for decent recovery time. Keep your body growing. The fat will burn off as you build the muscle. Don’t workout to melt off fat. Workout to construct muscle. I switched to a ‘barbell only’ routine a year and a half ago and I love it. Physically and mentally, I love it. The only non-barbell exercise I do is classic pullups. I now refer to dumbbells as ‘fagbells’, no offense.

    -Fat guys should add in a hike on the weekends and maybe a couple weekly brief wind sprint sessions, like running 8 100’s or something if you feel that the compound lifts aren’t doing enough for your weight loss needs.

    –If some guy is 50-150 pounds overweight to start off then just walk it off. Hike, walk, walk, walk. Then start lifting once you’ve dumped a ton of weight.

    –Mostly, the ‘get cut’ mania is misguided. Yeah, yeah, do it for kicks when beach season is upcoming if you’re in your twenties but a fixation on bodyfat reduction can’t be maintained for decades. Barbell training, hiking and a smart diet works for decades.

  37. “Don’t workout to melt off fat.”

    As I have said time and time again, you don’t exercise to burn fat, you burn fat to exercise. Fat is fuel. Exercising to burn fat makes as much sense as driving a car to burn gas. You exercise to get stronger and more powerful.

    The exercise and fitness world has been turned on its head.

  38. @Sentient: You are my hero.

    @MrT

    Physicians are by nature spergy. It makes them exquisitely good at long-term focused behavior, unemotional analysis, cold pragmatism. It’s good for medicine; They give us unvarnished truth, especially in life and death issues. As we all know, this behavior kills any real desire. Physicians end up on the sexual market later in life and often cold-cocked that their wealth becomes marginally useful as they progress in their sexual lives as their only attractiveness is a women’s insatiable access to status and money.

    It’s kinda sad but unsurprising when the hypergamous good girl-next-door RN who hooks up long term with a physician soon becomes unrecognizable from her love of his money.

    My little convo post earlier with the surgeon is typical of most of these guys…I didn’t even get into the pure medical M.D.’s (Internists, pathologists). These guys are even less capable, require guidance in public situations, and generally fear living outside their wheelhouses.

    Hence, I can’t in good conscience but pity them and try to humbly help. And the surgeons are supposedly the macho jocks. Oy.

    Don’t be fooled fellas, we all have the same problems, just at different magnitudes.

  39. As a guy who has emitted both beta and alpha signals, i can tell you that women absolutely NOTICE you if you appear to have wealth. Period. Every time. A lot of male ‘fashion’ is about signaling wealth, even if you don’t possess it. It doesn’t mean they are going to show overt attraction or IOIs, this is actually contextually sensitive, often a woman will warm 1-on-1 to a man with bucks whereas she might not publicly.

    I think Anon is missing that these mating selection cues are firing off subconsciously in women in large part, these are innate responses just like how being attractive triggers a different response in a woman. This is limbic brain shit and happens before we even know it. It’s truer to say we notice such impulses and have no control over them.

    In my case, I would get angry when women started treating me more like the provider type I unconsciously presented myself as. Like many such men, I was passive aggressive in my betahood and felt very proud of the income and career I’d built based on hustle and smarts. I felt entitled to attraction and desire, and respect. I never realized that it was about how I was presenting myself. In my marriage too. In my case, TRP would have been very accessible as I had some natural alpha traits wrt aggression and social dominance already. I already had a sense that relationships were about “hand” and my approach was to end them when I no longer had hand. The problem is I always lost hand. Betahood will do that – why? Cuz in betahood, she’s the prize…And when a beta demands to be treated like a prize too, that’s where all hell breaks loose.

    I realize now how confounding I must have been to women. After my divorce, when each and every woman I began an LTR with (this happened 9 times in a row over 15 years) began to give me endless shit and become demanding I would end the relationship around month 5. Over and over. It’s like on clockwork, after 3-4 months they would start just becoming cunts and I would warn, try to clam them down, etc. but I also had an abundance mentality so I would just “next” them and move on. I never realized that they were fitness tests and that I was undercutting myself. I was the classic “beta with a side of alpha” or was it the other way around? Sure, I road a motorcycle and rock climbed, but I also had this corporate job, a close relationship with my young daughter who I adored, my home at this time was a literal shrine to my daughter, dozens of pictures of her and my family everywhere and had all these good fitness signals for fatherhood so i attracted Wallers and Lane Changers like flies to shit. There are no pix of my daughter on my walls now, fyi…

    But I also was an anal de-virginizer and had a wild, dirty side that I would get into a bit at times. I also had sharp limits and wasn’t beyond telling a woman who got out of line to shut the fuck up or I’ll drop you off on the side of the road and you can call a service to take you home. 120 miles from home. And they liked this about me, so I was this weird mix of behaviors and ideas about women, but really, none it worked well for me over even the medium turn. I never kept “hand” and then just bolted. I did have the reflex for bolting down.

    But ultimately I was blue pill as shit in many important ways. Women were on pedestals. I was to “earn it” (thought I already had by making big bucks and being a “good guy”), and they were the prize. Even though I did get dirty at times I was also ashamed of that part of me too. Not sure I’ll ever be rid of all these traits but I am making progress.

  40. @Kaminsky
    “As far as cutting calories and lifting to get cut…watch out. Your moods and hormonal state will be in the shitter. Your T-levels are likely to plummet because you’re ripping up muscle and not eating enough to recover. That is a high stress state and cortisol will be high.”

    This is so true – experienced this this summer. Will NOT try cutting again. Try getting it up during a cut…

    The rest of your advice is spot-on! I just hope another ‘debate’ shit-storm doesn’t start though…

    GSP is a local boy here – seen lots of his training vids. Pretty unreal. All of those young MMA dudes are getting into that training program. Not sure of the resultant training injuries coming out of that type of training. Saw lots of overuse training injuries among the hard-core rockclimbing crowd years ago. Slow and steady in perhaps the better answer to a healthy old age.

  41. @theasdgamer

    should have invited the doc out to dance…lol…in front of the wife…lol

    i like lesbians… lol… the only thing that makes them ‘lesbian’ is that they have a higher threshold for acceptable ‘alpha’ than their looks can pull (or LUG…lol)… that doesn’t stop them from being girls…lol… and ‘giving value’ is ‘giving value’ to the people around you…

    good luck!

  42. @culum

    yeah this is just something a lot of dudes get into.

    like, I was into it when I first started to, and I still have my personal standards.

    HOWEVER…

    you need to separate that personal shit from empirical reality.

    Game, TRP, etc. are all about observing and responding to the facts.

    There are a ton of guys in the manosphere who bitch and moan and say shit like “bro this 3 SLORE wasn’t responding to me! WTF! SOCIAL MEDIA INFLATES THESE CHICKS PAST THEIR ACTUAL WORTH RAAAWR!”

    Nope. This is the wrong attitude to have.

    That “3” is a “7” in 2016.

    http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/3-Glengarry-Glen-Ross-quotes.gif

    I don’t give a shit why or how it got to be that way, it is what it is.
    And when you equate your own personal platonic made up ideals to reality, well….

    You’re gonna have a bad time.

    You’re not going to use the right game. You’re not going to be able to follow the number one rule of the PUA: be cool.

    Instead, just recognize that chicks who look like the 9’s in the chart OR BETTER require game bombs to be dropped and you to not fuck around if you’re a dude in the 5-8 range of appearance.

  43. @Disgruntled

    When a woman I don’t know joins my conversation by opening with cunty questions in a cunty tone for absolutely no reason, then proceeds to a conclusion of “You should never have children” in the same cunty tone, I see nothing wrong with going straight for the jugular. Particularly since I have a reputation for being a really friendly guy around there and it’s like the only time anyone’s ever seen me just be a genuinely open asshole.

    Some people just need to be reminded that it’s a bad idea to open with strangers by being a jerk, because some of them will leave you crying with their response instead of trying to placate you.

  44. @

    <em As far as cutting calories and lifting to get cut…watch out. Your moods and hormonal state will be in the shitter. Your T-levels are likely to plummet because you’re ripping up muscle and not eating enough to recover. That is a high stress state and cortisol will be high. And I think cortisol and T are a ying-yang duo aren’t they? You’re the doctor, Intellect. What say you?

    I think most guys try to change their bodies too quickly. If you’re lifting, doing cardio and eating 1600 calories, yeah you’ll drop fat but your muscle won’t be growing much, if at all, and the moment you break from your insane regimen, your body will store fat with surprising efficiency.

    Your body just takes a few weeks to adjust to any diet. And the drop off in T related to cutting calories is negligible.

    The rise in T from losing fat is not negligible

    Regarding eating fewer calories and not growing muscle, that depends on how long you’ve been lifting.

    You can easily recomp your body. Just eat around maintenance and lift/exercise hard.

    The reason why gains seem slow is that you can lose fat much faster than you can gain muscle after the first year or so of lifting.

    Recomping is just much easier.

    Leangains intermittent fasting is also great (I personally fast for 19-20 hours most days, 18 at the least). It jacks up your HGH like crazy.

  45. @ scrib

    In a weird way I’m feeling more confident in myself than ever before. Maybe it’s because some of the experiences I’ve had with hooking up with women have been so awful I can’t imagine them being any worse. Examples:

    1) Being told to grow a pair (“or 10”) by a 220lb landwhale, and her crying her eyes out and yelling at me telling me I don’t understand how hard it is to be a woman, what women have to go through, and “fuck you” and “you’re a fucking asshole” because I backed away from her when she tried to make out with me, and when I explained I was a virgin at the time and because of that sex freaked me out still, and maybe we should go into a separate room instead of right on the couch in the middle of a party, and it only made her angrier and more self righteous, “I don’t give a fuck” “what makes you think I should give a fuck about your problems” etc. She sucked my dick eventually but for all the shit I got before that and also her being beyond morbidly obese it’s hard to feel like it even mattered.

    2) Sitting naked on the floor with a naked 43 year old single mom and taking shots of maple syrup because I can’t get my dick up, because I’m freaking out and have high adrenaline and low blood sugar, and then after 2 hours of awkwardness when I finally do get it up my dad pounds on the door and starts yelling at me right as I’m about to have sex for the first time in my entire life, she puts all her clothes back on and gets up and leaves

    3) Blowing every possible opportunity to hook up with an HB8 23 year old to the point where she basically tells me I should just stop dealing with women and jerk off myself (update: she got *potentially* knocked up by some new dude, i.e. they hooked up and he fucked her raw and nutted inside her, and the other night when I mentioned that my relationship with the girl I’ve been seeing hasn’t been working out and I wanted to go back to just hookups, she said “this might be a revelation to you but you don’t need women in your life to masturbate by yourself”)

    I’m realizing that this is all my choice, not some fate that has been thrown upon me by God or something. It isn’t a curse.

    I’m the one choosing to make it keep sucking. I was thinking about some of these experiences and my current relationship bind with the only girl I’ve fucked in my entire life at 27 years old, while I was out the other night playing videogames with some friends. They were all talking about banging 18 year olds and all the different girlfriends they’ve had and I’m just sitting there realizing I feel bad.

    But I’m doing it to myself. That’s at least an improvement. No more excuses…I’m the one replaying bad experiences in my head, including the ones I just shared. It’s entertainment. Not good entertainment, but entertainment nonetheless. We change and shape memories. I could just as easily make up some good memories, or focus on only good ones, or change them in ways that make me feel more confident.

    I’m the one not going out and running Game. I’m the one staying in this oppressive BPD relationship. I’m the one keeping myself codependent. What do I expect is going to happen? I’m getting exactly what I’m putting in — nothing. And I accept that 100%.

    I’m more open to advice than before, though, and I know field reports can be a huge benefit to the guy sharing them, for the advice he gets. I at least should know I COULD’VE fucked this girl, who would’ve been the first non-overweight girl I was with in my life. My Game didn’t suck. It was actually pretty good, until it got to the point where I hit a wall and didn’t close. Anxiety got the better of me and I didn’t fuck her even though I could’ve. That’s progress. There’s that window of opportunity though and once you change a girl’s perception of you, i.e. seeing you as a roadkill, it’s a done deal.

    Happened to some other guys she fucked, according to her. They went through with fucking her but then went chode and she flaked on all of them after regarding them as nothing but nuisances. So it’s not like fucking is the last step either. The last step is the first step: inner Game.

    And that’s what I’m practicing right now by just taking ownership for all this. If I’m going to be a chode then I can at least take 100% responsibility for it. IMO inner Game and being your own mental point of origin starts there. If I’m not happy, and I’m not the person I want to be, whose fault is that? Mine. Even shit that happened to me in my life, I’M the one replaying all that shit in my head on a daily basis. I’m the one that’s in control.

    Anyway, enough rambling from me. But I do want to emphasize that point: ownership. Big difference between the bitter misogynistic incel who feels like women owe him, and the incel who takes responsibility for being incel and accepts that it won’t change unless he does something about it.

    So what I’m saying is I’m not trying to make excuses for me not doing shit. My deal right now is trying to take 100% responsibility for my decision to not do shit. And I can take it from there, you know? I’m feeling more clearheaded about this than ever. Feels like a major secret has been revealed to me or something. Big step up from just being pissed off that I’m not getting laid and spinning my wheels, vs. being like “Oh. I’m not getting laid because I’m not doing anything that would be necessary for me to do in order to get laid. And that’s my choice. Okay. That makes sense.”

  46. @Kaminsky

    Went off carbs (not OCD though) and I feel freaking awesome. I upped my egg intake (it’s easy available food @ home) and Mg to my diet.

    Anyhoo, exercise for exercise’s sake can get really complicated and a Rube Goldberg machine. Exercise as a pathway to helping others on the job, brutally fucking the missus, being a good example for my kids provides me worthwhile long term value.

    I know as much as you re: TRT and cortisol. TRT helps depressed guys who in the past would just be lost. I’ve seen friends turn themselves away from frustration with help of TRT. It’s only part of the story.

    When the industry finds any given marketable solution admissible by the FDA the sunk costs are tens of millions. TRT addresses part of older men’s needs. It’s no panacea.

    Our inability to quantify all the physiological variables and understand them in context of the limitless permutations of the human mental, spiritual and physical reality leads us often to grasp a the lowest hanging fruit to improve our perceived deficits. That was confusing.

    The desire to avoid our impending mortality drives our economics by maximizing any marketable good in medicine to kick that personal work down the road. It will be advertised as the latest, greatest. I know TRT helps but see it as another left-handed blessing.

  47. “Your body just takes a few weeks to adjust to any diet. And the drop off in T related to cutting calories is negligible.”

    If I’m a bit fat (over 10%) I can live for weeks on a diet that just covers my BMR, without losing strength or power, because I don’t normally live on sugar/starch. After a few weeks on that sort of Caloric intake I can then fast for 24 hours, get on my bike, and ride in the neighborhood of record speed.

    Because I am not the least bit short on fuel.

    I believe most people who think they are experiencing unpleasant symptoms while calorie reduced because of the calorie reduction are actually experiencing the symptoms of carb reduction, what has been called the Low Carb Flu.

    If you are going to drop calories, first drop carbs and don’t worry about Calories until you have adjusted, gotten over the “flu.”

    As you drop Calories, do not drop protein. That way you won’t have to steal it from muscle to maintain hormonal balance.

    And you won’t be the least bit malnutritioned. You have a surfeit of certain nutrients, that’s the “problem” in the first place.

  48. Health and nutrition is a whole nother rabbit hole.

    Which is further evidence that even getting involved in that is part of being your own mental point of origin.

    Researching hormones and diet and working out and all that goes WAY beyond trying to get fit to help with picking up women. Strong evidence of being passionate about it.

    Much like I started out playing guitar because I thought it would help me with women and then before I know it I’m obsessed with it and making a career out of it. I’ve been friends with a few people who made careers out of endocrinology and the like and even if their ventures into health and fitness started with wanting to look ‘hawt,’ now their lives revolve around helping other people improve their health and quality of life.

    Just something to keep in mind.

  49. “Our inability to quantify all the physiological variables and understand them in context of the limitless permutations of the human mental, spiritual and physical reality leads us often to . . .”

    . . . pursue what we can measure, whether it is actually relevant or not, and perhaps just a proxy of a proxy of a confounder.

  50. @Softie – Nice work. You are generating your reality. It’s more challenging for guys like you and me with the bad neurology and psychology and traumas – but not impossible. We also have to look for our progress instead of our mistakes cuz we are naturally so hard on ourselves.

    That said, all you need do now is an actual field report on that night with the girl who’s basically laying there with her legs in the air screaming, “Please fuck me Softie, I’m literally craving your cock like a cat craves catnip”.

    Do the FR. Ask the PUAs here for guidance. Try what’s learned. As I said to Zhe, also use a method. I don’t care which one, although I think for a smart, analytical guy like you Mystery Method is best cuz it’s definitive. Like once you get MM you will intuitively understand what Tyler and Luke are doing. You also need to find out who you are, I’m a “thrill of the hunt” guy for sure. some other guys just love sex and aren’t that picky about how it happens. I love the submission and seduction and sex isn’t as sweet to me without it.

    Do the detailed FR. “I said/did this, she did that,” etc. Come on, I know you can do it. And then listen to what the experts here have to say. I tell you, your entire POV on the wall hitting brood sow trying to control your life will change. She will probably go insane sexually, fyi..When she does, try hate-fucking her…

  51. It’s kinda sad but unsurprising when the hypergamous good girl-next-door RN who hooks up long term with a physician soon becomes unrecognizable from her love of his money.

    Are docs still marrying nurses these days — I know SJF did that, but that was back then … I’d thought this had mostly become gauche. For lawyers, the lawyer/secretary thing is dead, when it comes to marriage at least.

  52. @Sun
    “When a woman I don’t know joins my conversation by opening with cunty questions in a cunty tone for absolutely no reason, then proceeds to a conclusion of “You should never have children” in the same cunty tone, I see nothing wrong with going straight for the jugular. ”

    Yeah, given that – you were too kind to her

  53. @scray

    Like, dudes who believe that the “average” woman (OR WORSE) are the best they can do aren’t that uncommon — 80% of dudes.

    It’s not “white knighting,” it’s just the facts on the ground.

    yep… was out for burger and a beer with my buddy…

    (late 40’s, going through HIS ‘late-40s divorce’ (1st time for him), so he’s ‘separated’ but not legal yet…so, on the market, so to speak…and trying…(note – i swear that divorce shit’s like a virus, but none of the 3!!! of my buddies going through their divorces right NOW know each other, so it might be something with the age range (mid-late 40s)… all BP guys, but kids at different ages, so age of kids is not it… haven’t got a handle on it yet… if ever…lol)

    and he was ‘longingly’ looking at the waitress…lol… a late 40s nb4…lol… this guy is solid BB material – great job, good guy, solid churchian type – couldn’t even get up the courage to ask HER for her number…lol… BP as shit… but he didn’t think he was even in HER ‘league’… and wouldn’t even ask for her NUMBER…lol

    and WON’T even listen to me…that he COULD get a hot 30 yo for his new gf…lol… but his social conditioning is just too strong…

    nobody listens to the sperg…lol…

    good luck!

  54. One thing I’ve learned in my years of selecting women for liquor promo work is that context is everything when it comes to attraction and how a various guys will rate it. For over 12 years a part of my job has been to look for attractive women to be pour girls and booth candy. I have very high standards when it comes to what I personally find hot about a woman but there’s a lot more to it than just what I like.

    A part of this process is learning about each girl’s personality, how they interact with the men and women who I need her to make a connection with, and most importantly, how well she fits the most common attractiveness profile any particular venue might demographically have.

    Personally I think a girl like Rene Sommerfield hits my scale at right about a 9.5
    https://www.google.com/search?q=renee+somerfield&espv=2&biw=1519&bih=1146&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCxe3a5OnPAhWI0iYKHVL6BDEQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=_

    But if I use her as an example of a hot woman with my black readers or Alan Currie and they’ll say “yeah, she’s attractive, but she’s so skinny” and then go on to tell me how much they like a girl with more fat on her or a bigger ass. So, between my professional life and my time in the ‘sphere I’ve come to learn that while there are certain universal characteristic men get off on, a lot of men’s attraction cues are really subjective with regards to culture, his own SMV and what type of woman he’s been sexually successful with in the past.

    That being said, I get what Scray’s saying that men’s standards are influenced by what’s available to him in his actual environment as opposed to what his ideal might be. If I’m looking at the girls in the chart, and I’m honest from my own contextual perspective, even the 9s would be 7s. I think that chart sets the bar very very low. My standards are what they are because I’m in the business of choosing beautiful women to work for my brands.

    Now, that’s going to sound very humble-brag, but again I see what Scray’s saying, 66% (actually more like 68%+) of women are overweight and of that a full third are considered morbidly obese. I was helping my daughter move into her dorm room a couple months ago and I looked around at all these girls thinking ‘my God, is there not one who’s at a proper BF%?’ If I was a college age guy my world would be filled with women ranging from “a few extra pounds” to ‘plump’ to “no fucking way am I banging that.” So, yeah, when that’s your environment it skews your subjective scale.

    However, I have noticed that it is the MO of pretty much every RSD advocate to promote the idea that men need to rid themselves of self-restricting beliefs. This pervades every topic of contention that comes up whether it’s guys looks, or attraction, or subcoms, or LTRs and now it’s how men are keyboard jockeys because they have a standard of physical attraction that is unbelievable or in some way might be self-limiting because they might think that, according to that standard, they wouldn’t sarge a girl who’s under their HB6 threshold.

    I’ll say from the start here that I think ridding oneself of those self and culturally imposed restrictions is a key element in Red Pill awareness. I’ve written countless posts about exactly this. But there is a point of balance between irrational self-confidence and believing your outcome independence is an article of faith. Everything about RSD is an effort to get a guy to change his mind about himself and put off his preconceptions about himself, and that’s good, but there comes a point when those efforts start to sound more like The Secret or the Power of Positive Thinking. Just believe enough and your life will change.

    Don’t limit yourself by not fucking HB5s, they’re really HB8s because you’re conditioned to think they are? I don’t think so. I don’t see the benefit of changing your mind about yourself if you’re not going to challenge yourself. When a guy becomes Red Pill aware and Game savvy I would expect his standards to be higher than they were while he was Beta.

  55. @HABD

    “nobody listens to the sperg…lol…”

    Where do you find cool male friends that know the real score if you don’t already have any? What’s your take on this?

  56. @rollo

    I have very high standards when it comes to what I personally find hot…

    Yup, this is the personal shit I describe earlier. ToTH have it bad, esp, including me.

    Don’t limit yourself by not fucking HB5s, they’re really HB8s because you’re conditioned to think they are? I don’t think so. I don’t see the benefit of changing your mind about yourself if you’re not going to challenge yourself. When a guy becomes Red Pill aware and Game savvy I would expect his standards to be higher than they were while he was Beta.

    Nah, this isn’t what I’m saying.

    Manosphere guys are terrible at separating their own personal standards from empirical reality…to say it for bolded emphasis again.

    Game requires you to act efficiently and correctly and with a knowledge of sexual market value.

    Your PERSONAL SHIT does not relay useful information about reality to you. It’s just your personal shit. Which, hooray, good for you, whatever, nice.

    But if I roll in and think I’m an 8, and I roll up to a chick who I PERSONALLY THINK IS A 6 and pull some game that would be appropriate for that differential, here’s what’s going to happen…..

    SHE IS GOING TO BE A BITCH AND NOT RESPOND and guess what, I’l probably come home and be like ‘FUCK BRO THESE BITCHES BLAH BLAH BLAH’

    Now, same situ. I think I’m an 8 and I look at a chick who I say “ya, the SMV rates her an 8, and that is what my game will reflect.” Guess what?

    SHE WILL RESPOND.

    It’s just about being efficient in your game.

    Pretty much — again, like I’ve ALREADY SAID — any chick that is above the chart’s 9 needs your maximum game if YOU are a male “8” or below.

    No one is saying to ditch irrational confidence. No one is saying to have limiting beliefs.

    Lol, the higher levels of game require nuance. The fact that people have trouble with this and the looks stuff just illustrates a need for further study or Field Experience.

    A. B. and C.

    A — act high value. B — know WHAT EVERYONE ELSE THINKS YOUR VALUE IS. C — don’t let B influence A in a negative way.

    To use the proper tools for the job, you need an accurate picture of reality. That’s all.

  57. Kaminsky
    Stop any and all sugar, including fruit juice, smoothies.

    I know a man who dropped 50 pounds over a year by ruthlessly cutting sugar. One pound per week average. It was hard, since he’s from down South: no sweet tea, no desserts, no ice cream, no sugar in coffee, no sodas, no fruit juices, no breakfast cardboar…er…cereal, etc. I do not know if he backed off on simple carbs (noodles, pizza, etc.) or not. Maybe not, his diet was so saturated with sugar before that cutting it may have been enough.

    The case for the “sugar -> blood glucose spike -> sugar stored as fat” is pretty strong at this point, no matter what the USDA Food Pyramid says. Not to mention the issue of diabetes.

    Just cut the sugar, drink more water, walk 30 min a day 5 days/week or 1 hour day 3 days/week and it should be no problem to reduce mass by 20 pounds or 10 kilos in a few months.

  58. HABD

    so it might be something with the age range (mid-late 40s)

    The last surge of hormones before menopause takes them for good… such that even the hamster knows the score…

    See the same thing, same ages, over and over.

    And the guys… if they are half way BB… by two years out they usually stumble into the fact that a zillion mid 30’s girls are waaaaaaay into them, and these girls do the heavy lifting and force the situation… and usually end up marrying one and having that second family…

  59. DisgruntledEarthling

    Man I’d like to know more about that changing state thing…

    Inner and outer Game. It only happened after I’d been reading for over a year or so.

    One time I walked into a coffee place with my mind on some work problems I was trying to solve, so I’m sure my body language was all closed up. I didn’t look at anyone in the face, just the hands, got my beverage and sat down. Started reading the web, maybe TRM or Athol Kay pre-estrogenization, maybe even Heartiste, I can’t recall.

    Long story short I mentally checked my posture: I was hunched over the table with my head craned at the keyboard. I consciously sat up straight and “spread out”, visualizing that I was now taking up the whole table. Deliberately looked around me, taking in the whole scene as if I was a detective searching for a suspect so that I looked at people’s faces and body language. Put a smile on my face that felt pretty forced, but I made it stick anyway. Consciously starte breathing from the diaphragm, not from the chest, through the nose.

    The girls next to me giggled about something or other, and I snorted & made a comment that was only mildly funny, but they both turned and looked at me, as I looked back. I did not know about lasering, but may have done it by accident. They chatted me up for a while, then left, and I opened the man next to me about some technical book he was reading.

    Walked in “grey” and invisible, deliberately did physical things that should change my mindset – and did change my mindset – then chose to use a version of Agree & Amplify + Bratty Sister on a couple of 20-somethings, it was amazing to me when it worked, maintained that state for a couple of minutes until they left, then turned to Interview on the man next to me. People enjoy talking about themselves, it’s sometimes pretty easy to get someone talking so that you can just observe them and yourself.

    That’s how it worked one time, I’ve run variations on that since then. It is interesting to see that a lot of men in some demographices walk around all “closed in” most of the time. It’s a mental habit that carries over to the physical, becoming an intrinsic part of how to walk, talk, gesture, etc.

  60. @Novaseeker

    Doctors and doctors, lawyer and lawyers is generally true. Not universally though.

    When socially awkward physicians (redundant) stray often it’s after long hours and in close working proximity with their staff. As Rollo has written somewhere, straying guys locate themselves in a high probablility to stray areas. They’re passive aggressive about it too. They don’t instigate. They’re used to people tending to them and show interest (That was amazing, how you do it, Doctor?!). They can’t tell the difference between obsequiousness and legit praise since they’ve been told they are the cat’s meow forever and they assume their genius in one area is fungible elsewhere.

    On the home front the wifey has never seen him as Alpha, lost interest in his earning capacity and sees a way out with cash and prizes. These sexually needy guys are vulnerable, especially so and strike at what’s nearby.

    Often they hook up as an affair then dump the first wife. In the 10+ years here, I’ve seen it 4 times and once the straying physician was getting cucked too, thought his new pregnant wife was true, after 2 years learned conclusively it wan’t his kid as she was leaving him for the true father. Alas the doctor’s name was on the birth registry, and is now raising the kid as his own.

    Here is a mix of irrational confidence, bravado, the smartest guy in every room he walks, brought asunder by hypergamy. Another AMOG falls….

  61. @habd

    and he was ‘longingly’ looking at the waitress…lol… a late 40s nb4…lol… this guy is solid BB material – great job, good guy, solid churchian type – couldn’t even get up the courage to ask HER for her number…lol… BP as shit… but he didn’t think he was even in HER ‘league’… and wouldn’t even ask for her NUMBER…lol

    and WON’T even listen to me…that he COULD get a hot 30 yo for his new gf…lol… but his social conditioning is just too strong…

    yeah.

    like, JUST GO OUT.

    2016 is SOME SERIOUS FUCKING SHIT. It’s no wonder that so many guys drop out….

    go out to clubs, try to break in VIP, deal with that shit, open the 21 y/o hotties, do so WITH A STARTING DISADVANTAGE (like yannow, being short lol)…

    it’s like…..

    https://media.giphy.com/media/z3mD3hkmoLap2/giphy.gif

    and a lot of the time, (NOT ALL OF THE TIME FOR THE DUDES WHO ARE ABOUT TO JUMP DOWN MY THROAT) a TRP starter’s personal shit is tied to his EGO about how he views himself.

    so for ex, a dude is like ‘I’m an 8’ so he looks at a girl and thinks she’s a 6 and beneath him, when IN FACT, the market rates her and him EQUALLY or him slightly BELOW HER.

    His PERSONAL SHIT is going to start getting in the way of his progress.

    Callback to last thread: you need BRUTAL INTELLECTUAL REALITY-CHECK honesty if you’re going to ascend in this game. Otherwise….

    http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/6-Glengarry-Glen-Ross-quotes.gif

  62. @Yollo

    @HABD

    “nobody listens to the sperg…lol…”

    Where do you find cool male friends that know the real score if you don’t already have any? What’s your take on this?

    right here…lol…

    for ‘real life?… when you figure THAT out… let ME know…lol

    i try to push people irl to ‘test the waters’, but all i’ve ever gotten is BP ‘wisdom’ parroted back at me…lol… and even when i point out the inconsistencies, i just get ignored…lol… it really is like the movie ‘they live’…lol…

    i feel like nobody else can see actual reality… it’s trippy…lol… BUT everything plays out according to RP expectations… sooo, i know i’m NOT crazy… lol… i just have a ‘super power’ of accurate observation/prediction…lol

    my buddy upthread went through ALL the churchian hoops to ‘fix’ his marriage (long term one too, like 25 years…adult kid so he didn’t get stuck with child support… but that whole situ reads like one of Rollo’s hypos…lol…)… ‘love languages’, ‘counseling’, etc… dude really put in the effort… he even lost weight for a while… soon-to-be-ex HATES his guts…and wants to ‘MAKE HIM PAY’… WE all know WHY that is… he just can’t understand it… and at this point doesn’t really want to… i just can’t get it across though…

    he would have been better off if he had just spanked her… lol…even if he had to sit in jail for it… bc then she would have had some attraction for him…lol

    good luck!

  63. @scray

    A. B. and C.

    A — act high value. B — know WHAT EVERYONE ELSE THINKS YOUR VALUE IS. C — don’t let B influence A in a negative way.

    To use the proper tools for the job, you need an accurate picture of reality. That’s all.

    a – i AM high value…

    b – everyone KNOWS i’m high value… if they don’t, it’s only bc i haven’t interacted with them yet…

    c – why would it… i’m AWESOME as f*k!…

    fify…lol

    good luck!

  64. Often they hook up as an affair then dump the first wife. In the 10+ years here, I’ve seen it 4 times and once the straying physician was getting cucked too, thought his new pregnant wife was true, after 2 years learned conclusively it wan’t his kid as she was leaving him for the true father. Alas the doctor’s name was on the birth registry, and is now raising the kid as his own.

    Oops!

    In law firms the most common thing is older lawyer with new young female lawyerette (they are younger than the youngest docs … our youngest ones are in the 24-25 range when they start). Secretaries and paralegals are kind of off-limits socially and it’s very rare to see any sexual fraternization across that line in law firms (sometimes you see it in firms where the paralegals are mostly young women between college grad and 25-26, because these are the same social class as eventually become lawyerettes anyway). Interestingly I’ve never really seen a harassment claim brought inside a law firm in a situation involving the older/younger lawyer — I know there must have been such claims somewhere, but they don’t seem to be very common in that context. Mostly it’s just affairs, although I have seen a couple of cases where the older lawyer leaves their wife for the younger one. I also remember one memorable case where a younger lawyerette of about 28 left her husband for one of the female partners of the firm, sort of a lesbian cuck situation. I now work in-house, where it’s like any other sanitized corporate environment (harassment for betas, leeway for alphas subject to getting burned if they act stupidly) more than what you see in a law firm context.

  65. @Sentient

    Sooooper pointy elbows Rollo…

    yea, but i guess i can take one for the team… you know… for the knowledge base…lol

    good luck!

  66. @OMGs – I have a very good friend who’s married and needs married man Red Pill advice, for which I’m not a great source. What would you guys give to a guy to read? This site is a bit too esoteric for him.

    He’s a Natural and has alpha traits but was also very traditional, and is BP as shit with women pedestalized. He’s 47, married 20 years.

  67. …after 2 years learned conclusively it wan’t his kid as she was leaving him for the true father. Alas the doctor’s name was on the birth registry, and is now raising the kid as his own.

    How do those girls pull this off? Kids you know for a fact they are not yours, and now you are paying to raise them just because your name on the birth cert? I would have thought that the woman ought to pay you back for each and every penny of your money you have spent on her. But no. You got to financially support(like someone said) “her whore brood”?!? WTF?

  68. @scribblerg

    I have a very good friend who’s married and needs married man Red Pill advice, for which I’m not a great source. What would you guys give to a guy to read? This site is a bit too esoteric for him.

    does he really WANT advice? (did he ask for it? and mean it? not just bitching…)… or are you ‘offering it for his own good’?…

    if he wants advice, Rollo’s books… and/or the orginal MMSL book… if not, he won’t read anything anyway… ask me how i know…lol…

    good luck!

  69. Scribs

    Married Man Sex Life 2011 Primer is a good short overview to evo/bio/psych and RP concepts, and BP concepts live covert contracts and passive aggressive Nice Guy behavior… if TRM is too esoteric… tell him to try that as an intro.

  70. @scrib, I would say the older Athol Kay book,The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 is a good starter place for that situ. It’s how I got started and it saved my life. The MMSL forum is obviously purple now but the older book is a good starting point.

    The real kick start for me,24 hours before that book was Ian Ironwood’s site, red pill room. I like his take on married life, taking the pill etc, its very accessible without scaring the shit out of guys or getting way too esoteric about RP and game too quickly.

    My trip down the rabbit hole began with one simple bread crumb that had been left out for me to find, it was the idea of “Outcome Independence”. I googled that and found RP, but it rocked my world that I should do that instead of acting fucking butt hurt when my wife played hide the vagina on me.

  71. How do those girls pull this off? Kids you know for a fact they are not yours, and now you are paying to raise them just because your name on the birth cert?

    Ya, in most US states at least the name on the birth cert is conclusive, non-rebuttable evidence of paternity unless you contest it within a fixed period of time from the date of birth — and it’s usually pretty short, often less than 12 months. So if the kid was a couple of years old, his goose was cooked — he’s the father, legally, in a conclusive way regardless of the biology. There have also been cases like this where the ex-wife gets custody and is raising the kids with the bio-dad, but “legal” dad still has to pay her CS. Such is the way it works.

  72. Agent P

    “My trip down the rabbit hole began with one simple bread crumb that had been left out for me to find,”

    Same here… it was Vox’s site which was linked from a finance guys blog ‘Alpha Game Plan” so I thought it was a finance site… LOL after finding it, I was away on a biz trip and spent the whole week locked in my room. Read the blog back to front… then got the MMSL book read that, got home and just declared to the wife “we are going to get divorced… it’s undoubted” which was like a bomb going off… from there to the Chateau and TRM… Some Ian thrown in…

    Funny to look back on over five years now…

  73. @habd

    nah I meant what I said.

    Here’s why…

    if you just say ‘I WILL ACT HIGH VALUE I AM SO HIGH VALUE’ no matter what

    well, HIGH VALUE people do different things in different situs based on how the people around them view them. you see?

    so you can’t choose the HIGH VALUE behavior in every situation unless you can ACCURATELY evaluate each situ, which includes having a good idea of the CURRENT value people place on you.

    HIGH VALUE behavior vis the 4 friend is NOT THE SAME as HIGH VALUE behavior to the target hb8 (yes that’s a super easy example because it’s the popular way to open a two-set, nice to uggo, cocky to target — it’s just to illustrate the concept, because it gets way more complicated)

    sometimes it’s high value to just ignore it when she flakes
    sometimes it’s high value to call her on her shit when she flakes

    if your directive is just —>

    ‘a – i AM high value…

    b – everyone KNOWS i’m high value… if they don’t, it’s only bc i haven’t interacted with them yet…

    c – why would it… i’m AWESOME as f*k!…’

    you’re not going to get anywhere or you’ll be stuck in phase 1 or it will take 10x as long to get anywhere

    which I’m fine with lol, more for me.

  74. @Eh Intellect: “What doesn’t this blog do?”

    Cut Jullienne fries in seconds, but I’ve got Ron in the back room working on that.

  75. @Scribblerg: If you want to start him slowly, even Athol Kay’s MMSL primer may be a bit too much for him to handle, but it is a good “Red Pill lite” book. Check the Married Red Pill reddit sidebar – they suggest No More Mr. Nice Guy and When I Say No I Feel Guilty.

    NMMNG didn’t resonate with me (but it does with a lot of people apparently).
    WISNIFG is useful for pretty much anyone (even women) and even has some somewhat BP passages in it, so it should help without raising alarms.

  76. @scray

    you say potato…lol

    i know exactly what you said/meant… i was just joking around with you…lol… buuut you (or me…lol) still have to have the mindset i put forth, or your prescription won’t work… everything else is just calibration…

    if you just say ‘I WILL ACT HIGH VALUE I AM SO HIGH VALUE’ no matter what

    well, HIGH VALUE people do different things in different situs based on how the people around them view them. you see?

    i agree completely… that’s WHY i’m so AWESOME!!!…lol

    so you can’t choose the HIGH VALUE behavior in every situation unless you can ACCURATELY evaluate each situ, which includes having a good idea of the CURRENT value people place on you.

    to know me… is to LOVE me!…lol

    HIGH VALUE behavior vis the 4 friend is NOT THE SAME as HIGH VALUE behavior to the target hb8 (yes that’s a super easy example because it’s the popular way to open a two-set, nice to uggo, cocky to target — it’s just to illustrate the concept, because it gets way more complicated)

    i know… and gaming that hb7.5 to get to her bff hb7 (real world jlaw clone…lol) bc she rings my bell more better requires a more complex approach… as well as dealing with the 3 orbiters around that 2 set… lol

    sometimes it’s high value to just ignore it when she flakes
    sometimes it’s high value to call her on her shit when she flakes

    yep… and also depends on your overall goal wrt her… i might not call a potential fb on flaking, but i WOULD call her out, if i thought she might be plate material… as vetting… just to see how she reacted…

    if your directive is just —>

    ‘a – i AM high value…

    b – everyone KNOWS i’m high value… if they don’t, it’s only bc i haven’t interacted with them yet…

    c – why would it… i’m AWESOME as f*k!…’

    you’re not going to get anywhere or you’ll be stuck in phase 1 or it will take 10x as long to get anywhere

    which I’m fine with lol, more for me.

    lol… i’d sarge with you anytime…

    good luck!

  77. @habd

    i know exactly what you said/meant… i was just joking around with you…lol… buuut you (or me…lol) still have to have the mindset i put forth

    ya…

    that’s what a) is. the mindset.

    and yeah b) and c) are about calibration.

    I get the jokes but like, there’s a lot of misinformation so new guys can get confused easily.

  78. scribblerg
    I think Anon is missing that these mating selection cues are firing off subconsciously in women in large part, these are innate responses just like how being attractive triggers a different response in a woman.

    No, dude, I get that. It’s just that there’s better ways to DHV than burning cash, in my opinion.
    That a man who wants to “be visible” to an HB 8 would be better off doing so with inner Game than by spending money. That was my point, along with the notion that most men are invisible to HB 8’s – which really is beyond question.

    Scray decided to be all argumentative, and maybe ego-invested stubborn, so he took the opposite position. ASD is just sperging. You may be doing the same thing.

    Spending money in a visible fashion signals “I have resources”. Will that get attention? Yeah, probably. Would a man be better served by signalling “I am fun, bring value, good feelz right here!”? That might be so. Mystery and Tyler and a bunch of other PUA’s field reports certainly suggest the latter vs. “Me Haz MONEY!” is worth considering. If nothing else, girls who want to have fun would be more entertaining to be around than golddiggers.

    Y’all know, I could go into a club where HB 8’s and 9’s were visible and get all up on their radar for a moment or three by taking off my jacket, pouring lighter fluid on it & lighting it up. Call it “self-destructive pyro game”, not reallly all that different from “burn $300 to $500 and they’ll notice you” when you think about it. In both cases consuming resources to DHV is supposed to get attention from HB 8’s. Which it will, probably, but…so?

    Might not be the best way to get a Day 2.

    Just saying.

  79. @scray

    nah, all we were doing is just rating girls on an objective 1-10 scale. Then you just barged in calling us keyboard jockies and shit

    dudes just talk shit lol. they can say ‘they’re just trying to find the truth’ but the evidence more or less points toward “dick measuring at all times.”

    nah, you are just trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Anytime anyone tries to come up with an objective measure of girls, you just shout “KEYBOARD JOCKEY KEYBOARD JOCKEY.” You’re like a feminist who see rape everywhere, just saying hey to a girl is rape.

    Now, rather than insulting us, you could have simply pointed out that “hey you guys may feel girls are at x rating, but bear in mind that because of abundance girls will feel they are prettier than they are.” Instead, you came in all gins blazing, and then cry fowl whenever guys get mad at you lol.

    No one here was dick measuring. We were all just noting that the girls weren’t as pretty as they were listed…which is TRUE if guys are consistently coming to that same conclusion. Its just that you the have the “girl’s” measure of how pretty the think they are…which is different. That’s a valid point and is helpful to guys to note.

    Its you just introduce concepts by insulting everyone and then acting shocked when no one wants to listen to you lol.

    Now, for your original question, as to what all this says about us, it says that guys doing FRs are doing better than they think. If a 6 is really an 8…then that means guys like culum and me are getting IOIs and pulling 8’s. That means our game is better than we think and/or our looks are better than we think as a result of not being fat fucks.

    That, I don’t completely believe. I do think that girls have inflated views of their own attractiveness, but a 6 can look around her and at movie stars and see she isn’t all that pretty. So deep down she knows. So though she might act a little like an 8, she’s not going to act like a solid 8 in looks would.

    That said, its still important to note the inflated view of girls, so guys need to make sure to inflate girls looks by at least a point. Again, I still think a girl who’s a 6 that thinks she’s an 8 is going to require slightly different game than a solid 8, but the point still stands.

    That’s all thats necessary. Lol, just be clear on what you are saying and don’t treat people like we are idiots. All we were doing was just rating a few girls, and you have to barge in crashing the party and shit lol.

    Like Anonymous Reader said about you:

    You just in an argumentative, “imma argue with everyone about everything”, mood or what?

    agree 100%

  80. @Disgruntled

    Yeah, given that – you were too kind to her

    To be fair, the little bit I mentioned there was at the end of a rant where I proceeded to take a dump on her credentials, eviscerate her (shabbily constructed) argument directly, THEN point out that if she wants me to give a shit about her opinion as a woman in a bar she needs to ditch the weight. She was quite literally crying on the bar after I was done, and the dude that had come in with her grabbed my wrist in an attempt to physically intimidate me because clearly she didn’t deserve to be insulted after insulting somebody who’d done nothing to her.

    Of course the White Knight’s moment of glory ended when I looked him dead in the eye with a smile on my face and calmly told him that if he didn’t release my arm I was about to break his. He released and I went back to my drink, ignoring them both. I think the only reason I reacted as harshly as I did can be put down to astonishment on my part that anyone would think anybody in a bar would react any other way to such shitty behavior.

    It’s a place to have fun, meet people, and make new friends. Why open by being a complete cunt?

  81. @hank

    nah, all we were doing is just rating girls on an objective 1-10 scale. Then you just barged in calling us keyboard jockies and shit

    first of all, I started the entire discussion on the rating by bringing up the weight distribution lol so nah dude I was here first.

    second of all, I explained the diff between personal shit (what you’re calling the “objective” scale) and empirical reality AT THE START lol.

    Now, rather than insulting us, you could have simply pointed out that “hey you guys may feel girls are at x rating, but bear in mind that because of abundance girls will feel they are prettier than they are.” Instead, you came in all gins blazing, and then cry fowl whenever guys get mad at you lol.

    I did point that out before you even chimed in:

    “you have to differentiate between like ‘oh this chick really isn’t MY TYPE’ i.e. which IMHO is what has them saying MODELS, ACTRESSES, AND CELEBS are “only 6’s”

    and “LITERALLY in the real world this chick is just SLIGHTLY better than average.”

    again, the average young woman is 5’3 and 160 pounds.

    So cool story bro.

    Its you just introduce concepts by insulting everyone and then acting shocked when no one wants to listen to you lol.

    I introduced a) the concepts, b) the nuances, and c) the counter-arguments before any of you brought them up. So the “shock” is just like lol…ya I anticipated and dealt with everything you said before you said it, yet you’re still here waving your arms around.

    And the mental masturbation KJ impulse is so strong and bad that it has you thinking YOU GUYS started the discussion rather than DERAILED IT.

    Listen or not, IDC.

    That’s all thats necessary. Lol, just be clear on what you are saying and don’t treat people like we are idiots.

    I was clear, from the beginning. Just doesn’t seem like you read it.

    Like Anonymous Reader said about you:

    Lol and he was wrong as fuck in what he was saying too.

    The top is a lonely place.

  82. @hank

    Now, for your original question, as to what all this says about us, it says that guys doing FRs are doing better than they think. If a 6 is really an 8…then that means guys like culum and me are getting IOIs and pulling 8’s. That means our game is better than we think and/or our looks are better than we think as a result of not being fat fucks.

    more shit that I anticipated at the outset:

    “Guys, bottom line is this:

    if you can score consistently with the average young american woman (1-6 hrs face time, no relationship promises), you are above average. you are top 20%.

    *drumroll*

    20-29, 160-165 pounds, 5’3, normal face. Yeah lol…paradise, right?

    tell him what he’s won Johnny…..

    A lot of dudes in the manosphere don’t even know how to evaluate their SMV in relation to the opposite sex.

    A lot of them are above average but are chasing after chicks where the competition is RIDICULOUS.”

    Its just that you the have the “girl’s” measure of how pretty the think they are…which is different. That’s a valid point and is helpful to guys to note.

    Nope. It’s not the girl’s measure of how pretty they think they are. It is the sexual market. Girls ping off their environment, meaning that they are getting POSITIVE FEEDBACK from social media, etc. and whatever else. It’s not just them dreaming it up.

    That, I don’t completely believe. I do think that girls have inflated views of their own attractiveness, but a 6 can look around her and at movie stars and see she isn’t all that pretty. So deep down she knows. So though she might act a little like an 8, she’s not going to act like a solid 8 in looks would.

    Mental masturbation. That same woman has a bajillion orbiters on speed twitter/fb/etc. to tell her otherwise, sorry.

    The FIELD rules all.

  83. @scray

    I get the jokes but like, there’s a lot of misinformation so new guys can get confused easily.

    good point…

    good luck!

  84. @anon

    That a man who wants to “be visible” to an HB 8 would be better off doing so with inner Game than by spending money. That was my point, along with the notion that most men are invisible to HB 8’s – which really is beyond question.

    Scray decided to be all argumentative, and maybe ego-invested stubborn, so he took the opposite position. ASD is just sperging. You may be doing the same thing.

    Tight, you’ve resorted to lying.

    Here, since you forgot how to read—>

    Me: It doesn’t matter if she “provides for herself.” Women respond to dudes dropping resources on them and making promises. There’s a reason tons of dudes either a) DO EXACTLY THIS WITH HOT WOMEN or b) LIE TO HOT WOMEN ABOUT DOING THIS SHIT.

    it’s because IT WORKS.

    does it work as well as having good game? no. you take on a bunch of bullshit obligations and conditions and put yourself in a provider frame.

    does it work better than ZERO/NOTHING/ZILCH? ya.

    So no, I did not say a guy would be “better off” using provider game and said exactly the opposite. Per fucking usual.

  85. and lol, another white chick just hit on me.

    lol me and culum need to trade. redhead hit on me yesterday, another one just now

  86. @scray

    nah your whole vibe has been agressive the whole time and starting shit where all that’s required is to point out some subtle differences here and there. You have a whole vibe of us vs them and that’s the shit that gets tiresome

    just look at how you approach things versus say yareally teaching a noob.

    your like a liberal who wants to give some real talk to some conservatives by showing up in assless chaps and a dildo up his ass. lol, you are gonna get a lot further if you just put on a suit.

    this is just marriage discussion again. lots of things to discuss on both sides, but its just coming down to getting all pissy at each other.

    one can note that there are objective ratings of girls from 1-10 and then the SMP if you want to call it that pf 1-10. Just because, at one particular time, you JUST want to rate girls objectively 1-10 doesn’t mean you are a keyboard jockely lol. That;s all we were doing and you have to pull all this other shit into the discussion.

    we can rate girls 1-10 objectively, AND THEN LATER to a separate one for SMP 1-10.

    If you think the objective rating is pointless in the real world, well kudos to you man, but we are doing it here cuz we want to.

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