Höllenhund brought up an interesting thought a few weeks ago:
This reminds me of something I wanted to ask here in general. The general narrative about MGTOW in the ‘sphere is that they are “avoiding women”. A more general narrative pushed in the mainstream media by Zimbardo, Hymowitz, Milo and other blue/purple pill journalists is that a growing number of young men are avoiding women.
What does “avoiding women” precisely mean in the current socio-cultural context in the West? The word “avoid” entails some sort of active, deliberate, protective measure. My problem with that is that the “avoidance of women”, or a breakaway from women doesn’t look like that at all in practice today, because the social context of male-female interaction has changed completely in the last 2-3 decades.
This is something our pal Novaseeker has described before. In the bygone Western social system, young people were expected to regularly interact with one another in controlled, regulated environments, in a way that fostered productive, long-term, monogamous, assortative relationships. This was a sort of “holistic” milieu, so to speak, where young people treated one another as potential future partners, sexual and otherwise, in a socially regulated manner, in all cases when they were permitted to interact. This was even the norm in workplaces where both men and women were present. The average man found a girlfriend through his extended family or social circle, because families and social circles were normally large.
What we have today is the complete opposite: “sexual zoning”. Some mixed-sex environments, like the workplace, schools and campuses, are made completely asexual – sterile, so to speak. No sexualized interactions are permitted to take place. This is demanded by law and expected by society. In such environments, you’re supposed to treat members of the opposite sex strictly as colleagues or professionals, non-sexual beings. (Hot men are allowed to get away with more, of course, but that’s another issue.) Other mixed-sex environments, on the other hand, like nightclubs, are expected to be full-on sexual. Everybody there knows that all interactions entail the future possibility of casual sex. It’s basically a meat market. You’re expected to hit on girls, and girls expect to be hit on by attractive men. Socializing in these environments requires action, engagement. If you want to find a partner, either just for sex or something more, you have to go there, you have to have Game etc.
In other words, avoidance of women in the old days was an anti-social act of disengagement that was frowned upon. Today, avoidance of women merely means that you’re not expending excess energy and time to do certain things. It’s an “action” with few or no social repercussions – you won’t be socially ostracized or something. But technically it’s not an action. You’re basically “avoiding” women by not hitting the clubs on Saturday night. You’re avoiding them through simple inaction. You can have a full-time job, or go to college, have a social circle, have hobbies, buddies etc., basically a normie life, and still “avoid” women.
I thought this was an interesting observation because there is a stark contradiction in how these sexual zones are presented to men by women. From an old books perspective, men are still expected to be the initiators. It is incumbent upon men to be the sex that approaches and expresses intimate interest in women, and men who don’t, or who fail to build themselves into acceptable mates for women are shamed as being perpetual adolescents or just “giving up.” Our feminine-primary social mandate still promotes the expectation that men will prepare for, and initiate with, women.
However, from a new books perspective men are, as Höllenhund illustrates, expected to know their place in respect to whatever sexual zone they find themselves in, as well as having an understanding of how they are perceived in the SMP. So, in an asexual zone such as a college campus or the workplace, men are expected to know their SMV and act or not act accordingly. Men not meeting or exceeding what would make for an optimized Hypergamy with women are expected not to initiate or approach. In fact, this expected understanding extends to sexual zones and fosters the avoidance Höllenhund talks about here.
For all of the handwringing from feminine-primary gender pundits about men ‘dropping out’ of life or the SMP, it is this contradiction in atmosphere that promotes the avoidance. Hypergamy, being the prime directive of westernized societies, is figuratively best served when women are in complete and unilateral control of sexual selection. Thus, we see laws and social dictates installed to encourage men to self-select themselves out of the process and make this selection easier for women. Men will be shamed for not initiating and not approaching, but simultaneously be held accountable for as much as hate crimes if they step outside what they are expected to know are their appropriate sexual zones.
Recently there’s been a spate of articles all attempting to explain why millennials aren’t getting after it in an age when it’s never been easier to hook up. Try as they will, nearly all of the explanations fail to account for how sexual zoning has affected the sexual marketplace today. Millennials have the ‘hook up generation’ reputation, but statistically they’re not doing much fucking.
Noah Patterson, 18, likes to sit in front of several screens simultaneously: a work project, a YouTube clip, a video game. To shut it all down for a date or even a one-night stand seems like a waste. “For an average date, you’re going to spend at least two hours, and in that two hours I won’t be doing something I enjoy,” he said.
It’s not that he doesn’t like women. “I enjoy their companionship, but it’s not a significant part of life,” said Patterson, a Web designer in Bellingham, Washington.
He has never had sex, although he likes porn. “I’d rather be watching YouTube videos and making money.” Sex, he said, is “not going to be something people ask you for on your résumé.”
One aspect that these largely millennial writers themselves seem oblivious to is the complexities of sexual zones that shift constantly for guys. In 2016 hooking up is easy, we’ve got Red Pill awareness and we have instantaneous communication, but what we don’t have are clearly defined sexual zones. Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.
This is a common refrain from MGTOWs. It’s usually some variation of “why should I waste my time trying to untangle some girl’s head just to put myself at risk of a sexual harassment or rape accusation?”
Fred Flange had this comment a few weeks ago:
Co-sign, and this “soft MGTOW” observation ties in nicely with the WashPost’s “no sex please we’re collegiate” article. MGTOW is now socially subsidized and easy to implement: just do nothing! At college, don’t engage in class, or even better, “attend” the lectures on-line. Say no more in class or lab than you must, then leave. Start no convos, you won’t be dragged into any. All of this goes for cubicle workers: in the lunchroom, stare at your phone, or eat at your desk, or if you can, get outside but go alone. No feelings caught, no feelings hurt. Everybody gets nothing, therefore everybody wins.
Eventually you can learn the fine art of disappearance in urban settings: yes you occupy space, but other than someone bumping into you, it is possible to go anywhere without your registering with anyone in the vicinity, not even cops. You can switch it on and off like a light.
One possible corollary to look for: see if the “bros before homes” shaming begins to die down. It should. Because before that you patriamalarkey-preaching Tumblr-inas insisted you wanted that cheesy-bro to go? He’s GONE! Soft MGTOW is the mandated social paradigm, outside of “safe social zones” like public streets, malls, clubs, etc. plus in some workplaces and colleges it’s law. You’re going to complain about men obeying the law?
There’s also no shortage of articles decrying the absence of boys and young men these days too. The frequent bugbear in these always point to guys ‘dropping out’ and playing X-Box all day. From America’s Lost Boys:
Young men, significantly more so than young women, are stuck in life. Research released in May from the Pew Center documented a historic demographic shift: American men aged 18-30 are now statistically more likely to be living with their parents than with a romantic partner. This trend is significant, for one simple reason: Twenty- and thirtysomething men who are living at home, working part-time or not at all, are unlikely to be preparing for marriage. Hurst’s research says that these men are single, unoccupied, and fine with that—because their happiness doesn’t depend on whether they are growing up and living life.
Now, granted, this article presumes men’s adulthood ought to be measured by his capacity to get involved with a woman, support a family and maintain a steady job. It’s very hard for writers who tackle this topic to pull their heads out of the old books reasonings. Thus, the go-to answer to the question of ‘why do guys drop out?’ is video games. It’s far easier to goof on men as a whole if they can be made to look juvenile, lazy or stupid to the point men not knowing what’s good for them.
It would take a real effort to tackle the larger reasons as to why men drop out, and men like Samuel James (article author) would be forced to acknowledge the disincentives for men to participate in what his old books reasonings tell him is some mutually beneficial arrangement. Those disincentives don’t paint women in a very flattering light, so it’s much easier to dismiss them as garden variety misogyny.
The drop out generation are content with their lot in life because they’ve accepted the realities of a social order that debases men and manhood to being appliances to better serve women’s imperatives. And the risks of investing themselves in a relationship or finding the inner will to become better men for the sake of “growing up” are significant when the rules of engagement and the acceptable sexual zones are constantly changing.
The Damage Done By ‘Mattress Girl’
“Even in less extreme situations, young men are more skeptical of women’s ability or propensity to consent to sex, which some women on campus consider demeaning.
“I find that men are more and more interested in ensuring that I’m consenting before sex, which would seem like a good thing,” Columbia student Dylan Hunzeker said. “But sometimes I don’t necessarily feel that way. Especially when I have to answer a man’s question: ‘are you sure you’re not too drunk?’ Or ‘you want to have sex with me?’ In a sense, it’s annoying and debilitating to be constantly questioned about whether or not I have agency and am a sexual human being.”
“Men are scared of women on campus now, and fear breeds anger and prejudice. Women are frustrated by men, which inspires a lack of desire to collaborate for solutions.”
I would argue that a large majority of men accused of sexual harassment or even just suspected of impropriety are men who’ve found themselves in an environment they believed was an acceptable sexual zone. We are fast approaching a time when all zones will be so arbitrary and ambiguous that every environment with sexual potential will be avoided. This will have the effect of putting women into unilateral control of their own Hypergamy. It will be a state of Sadie Hawkins world – only women will make approaches on men and only those who match her Hypergamous ideal, an ideal fostered and reinforced by a steady diet of social media ego inflation.
It’s ironic that authors bemoaning the drop out generation of men never acknowledge the other side of the disincentives for men – those generated by a feminine-primary social narrative – the generation of women who remain unmarried well into their middle age. When this is explored, once again, it’s the result of the juvenile, ridiculous men that same narrative has created for itself.
Hoellenhund True, true. The incentives in my industry is to maintain and increase obesity to feed (heh) the economy of orthopedics, bariatrics. We ain’t in it to cure, just score income from another’s willed dysfunction. I’m an ancillary player, guilty too. Food Inc. helps drive this slow-moving train wreck. It’s not a cabal of secret players, more an open conspiracy. Society demands we shouldn’t shame fatties publicly as a convention but it does require a lot of top down pressure and heaps of non-existent money to continually drive this wedge between the sexes, pretend guys should marry up sluts, overfeed… Read more »
Nova’s got it. Yes, there will be a lot more “soft MGTOW”. Fully agree here I’ve said this elsewhere, but I’ll say it here too. Most men aren’t attractive enough to get and keep the interest of a woman long term. They don’t have the genetics for it. Most men won’t learn Game because they can’t. They don’t have the aptitude for it. Most men in the near future will not marry and will not have children. A few will be “baby daddies” and won’t live with their children. They won’t have any real relationships with their children, mostly because… Read more »
Oh this guy here is having a gastric sleeve, 161 kg and 3.5 foot abdominal incision.
This physiological basket case gives me pause whom I’m actually helping. Him? Only in the short term. We’re not getting to the root of why he’s here.
Me and the system, yeah. F@#k me.
Don’t drown yourself in your sunk cost.
Right. There is always an opportunity to better the system from within, and avoid morally damaging scenarios, at least incrementally. I’m optimistic about this mind set here at TRM (non of this existed a decade ago) and look to help those willing to be helped out here in flyover country. GBA.
“Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.” You perfectly described my entire dating life in a single sentence. I remember reaching the point, even as a blue-pill guy, where I imagined there must have been a “secret American breeding grounds” somewhere because everywhere I went (church, college, work, gym) was a strict no-frisky zone. Now that I know it’s real and a permutation of Tinder, alcohol and mind games, it’s a place I don’t even want to visit. …… Read more »
Hi Rollo, A blue pill mindset is responsible for the struggles of many men, not only in their dealings with women. I am a 30 yo married man and am having trouble maintaining frame. To elaborate, my wife tries to assume responsibility for many different areas of our daily activities. I don’t like this because I like controlling my own destiny. My response is to forcefully dictate what we do but she simply will not voluntarily submit to my frame of her own volition. I have pondered different ways to improve this like focusing more on my own endeavours and… Read more »
@Play Don’t Pay: “”I guess I’m guilty of going for the “lower hanging fruit” of 35-45 year old still attractive milf/cougar types where I have a proven track record and real DGAF attitude because I know “success ” is replicable in this demographic.”” A friend of mine is like this. I call him a Carp…just eats whatever is put in front of him. He gets whatever. I set my goal of banging only girls 30 or younger 2 years ago. It’s higher risk and higher reward. The girls overall are just nicer. Not all…some are the kind of cocky cunts… Read more »
finally saw fight club. wasn’t bad, but I think its overhyped. @hollenhund At this rate, rape will almost completely disappear from Western societies in a few decades, and almost all rapes that do happen will be committed by African and Asian minorities. well, sort of. there will be virtually be no rapes by white westernized men while there will be a significant uptick in rapes — though they will be committed almost exclusively by immigrants (particularly mid easterners). See Europe where this is already the case — 1400 rapes committed by pakastani rape gangs in Sweden over a decade yet… Read more »
oh yeah and I second sentient that having a better way to search the site for specific comments would be very helpful. I know I like to review some of my FRs from the past and its a bitch and a half to do so.
Thanks for another great insight Rollo. I keep thinking all the music and lyrics from time immemorial must have been done by now, but new songs keep coming along. Everything about women too – and yet there is always more.
Our feminine-primary social mandate
Still hoping for the definitive answer to this one, which quite obviously exists. If the much maligned “Patriarchy” ever really existed – how did we get from that to a feminine-primary social mandate? It seems like by definition a patriarchy would have nipped that in the bud.
@D-MAN Dan You never entered the marriage with her being in your frame. It is very difficult to flip that situation. Frame is not power. Ilimitable Man MAXIM #24: “As her control increases, her attraction and respect decreases. As her control decreases, her attraction and respect increases. If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget… Read more »
If you want the long answer, it is described in one of the great essays of the manosphere:
The Misandry Bubble
Also to our sensei here is my hat tip for making the front page, as it were. One refinement: do not expect love peace and happiness will come to the nice girls, or anyone less than an HB7. Their former beta suitors will not be found in social circles, or at work, A few could sign up for It’s Just Lunch, if they travel a lot and look at the ad in the airline mag. In short, the average girls won’t have it so good either. See the push pull in the Guardian pieces? A whistle at a woman is… Read more »
Thanks for that link. I’ve learned most of those concepts throughout the manosphere, but it was over time, and I did not always make the connection between mutually supporting factors. Fascinating to see it laid down all at once in one place.
D-MAN I am a 30 yo married man and am having trouble maintaining frame. To elaborate, my wife tries to assume responsibility for many different areas of our daily activities. How long has this been going on? Is it something in just the last 6 months, or the last couple of years, last 5 years, what? I don’t like this because I like controlling my own destiny. My response is to forcefully dictate what we do but she simply will not voluntarily submit to my frame of her own volition. Has she always been like this or did she change… Read more »
“It would take a real effort to tackle the larger reasons as to why men drop out”
Forget the 80/20 rule…I seriously doubt 1 in 5 guys are hookup worthy. It’s more like 1 in 20 on a college campus and probably worse in the real world. The average looking guy probably receives less than 5 genuine IOI’s per year. The sexual zone can basically be classified as the male looks threshold for all coed interaction. And the threshold is getting higher by the year. If you don’t get decent matches on Tinder, you have the answer to the sexual zone you are “supposed” to play in. Then, chuck the app and try your best through your… Read more »
25% of the population doesn’t reproduce. We need that to become 50%, in order to have a sustainable future. Everyone wants their cake and eat it. We want the house, the car, the holidays, the kids and the wife. We also want a good job and enough money to live a comfortable existence. The trouble is everyone wants that. I work on a construction site. About a month ago a woman slipped on the cobble stones, outside and fell. Some operative were nearby and helped her to her feet. One of them noticed a dildo had fallen from her bag… Read more »
Exactly. What has changed is that the college class, which has expanded, has largely abandoned college as a means of spouse hunting. That is new. It was historically a smaller group than it is now, for certain, but college as spouse hunting is dead now, and that is new — well, new-ish — it was already dying when I was in college in the 80s, but there were still quite a few engaged folks at graduation in my HYS college in the late 80s — not happening now. Nova, I think what has happened is that the “life script” women… Read more »
Porn, and its ubiquity, feeds into this and amplifies it, without question. On the one hand guys are getting zoned, while on the other, they have strong drives due to testosterone. Porn is the outlet, and it sates the drive just enough to enable men to neuter their sexual response in de-sexed zones on a maintenance, on-going basis — it takes enough of the edge off of the sex drive such that these guys are able to obey the FI zoning more easily Nova, good points. There is a lot one could say and explore vis a vis porn and… Read more »
I get what you are saying. The perspective is that the system is what it is, and the men in question would either be not getting laid without porn or not getting laid with porn, so what is the difference — they ain’t getting laid either way. The difference is that there would be many more bucks against the system if we didn’t have the porn we have now. A greater percentage of these guys would “try more”, in other words, and, failing, would be more pissed than today where current porn encourages retreat. Porn is anaesthesia, and the best… Read more »
I’m an Aubrey Plaza fan. Half Puerto Rican and half Irish. Nice combo. She’s funny too.
…and there you go, from Aubrey herself – it’s good to be old.
@Playdontpay: Its absolutely possible. Last week a cute 23 year old approached a friend of mine (49) and asked if he likes to spend the night with her. He lifts and is in shape. Well groomed grey beard.
Furthermore read the posts of VasiliyZaitzev in the RP reddit.
@hank holiday Thanks for the recommendation. Will try out your suggestions. Now i need to keep few stories(practiced a few times) that are triggers of attraction according to MM that I can repeat at the right time. I have no problem approaching and opening anybody(thanks to cold approaching girls on streets and going direct). I can make small talk. It is working with guys especially. Just that since I know, small talk doesn’t help me in gaming girls and make me look asexual, I don’t do small talk with girls and at the same time get stuck on thinking what… Read more »
Word up playa! Preach bruv PREACH…
Wud u sarge wid me? In the beemer?
Got gas money?
I found the discussion of men avoiding the approved “sexual zones” interesting. It’s true that a man formerly had to actively avoid women to end up a bachelor, whereas now you can just live a normal life and avoid women. The other thing that would explain a lot of men dropping out, especially past a certain age, is that the “zones” where you might find women don’t deliver high quality women. If you go to any bar, club, whatever, you will find women with purple hair, or a lot of tattoos, or carrying around children from another man. You will… Read more »
@Morpheus — Good thoughts! Put another way, and admittedly this is speculation about the impact, but it probably prevents some number of Eliot Rodger incidents. Certainly — it also seems to lower the rape rate, despite the hysteria to the contrary. It does work as a safety valve for extreme expressions of male sexual frustration, but at the same time it dulls the overall sexual adventurism appetite in lots of guys, which is the same appetite that drives men to cold approach — so it reduces “normal” participation along with extreme expression at the same time. I think this is… Read more »
Your 20% failure rate reminds me of the 10-80-10 corporate theft concept. Corporate theft penalties are in place for the 80% of the workforce where threats alone keep them at bay. 10% steal regardless of possible penalties and 10% never steal.
LOL to this 10-80-10 Rule.
I for myself have found out, that i also have developed something like this women hypergamy thing.
I only fuck goodlooking women and i only see them.
All the rest of to women are invisible to my eyes.
Re; Hollen – Smashing it out of the park on this thread with this. It’s a bit subtle, slow down and digest it if you didn’t get it the first time around. “The possibility that they’re the ones who’re supposed to salvage this culture doesn’t even occur to most men, mostly because they don’t treasure it. Standing up to women makes sense when you value them enough that you want to change their ways, when you see them as worthy of intervention and risk. Except that most Western men don’t see their “fellow” women that way, either because they don’t… Read more »
” Deal with the consequences of feminism and realize that sexual liberation cuts both ways…”
Yeah for every strong and independent woman who claims she is happy with that life, there are countless others who discover having a kid and staying at home is really more satisfying.
In other words, the feminist lie becomes quite apparent as soon as you interject a spider into the bathroom… they don’t appreciate the irony though – EEEEEEEEEEK!
PS – l;ove Vitaly… LOL
The issues of class and intersexual dynamics were covered well in Murray’s 2012 “Coming Apart”. The economic classes have sequestered themselves and cross-class relationships are less possible because of social and economic expectation differences. 40 years ago doctors married their nurses, lawyers married their secretaries. Sexes understood themselves culturally and lower class women could marry up into the made-woman lifestyle. Not so now. Doctors marry doctors, lawyers marry lawyers. Cultural expectations (i.e. religious, community and workforce) of the upper classes are too foreign even now to the middle classes, let alone the lower class, a middle class HB7 will have… Read more »
So here is “correction” in action. My lovely blonde 11 year old daughter wants to be Harley Quinn for halloween. I have no doubt she could pull it off character wise. Either way, it didn’t matter,I simply said, “Nope, she looks like a slut, you’re not dressing up like that”. She’s pretty head strong but at the same time she is 100% my girl, so she thought for a moment and thankfully did not enquire about the meaning of “slut” and she simply said, OK, I’ll be a storm trooper. If she does ask about the meaning of slut, I… Read more »
@EhIntellect — Yes, it’s a kind of informal eugenics at play. In the past, when power and money was mostly about owning stuff, mating and marriage, for the ownership class, was about setting up clear lines of inheritance to preserve that material wealth and the position of power and privilege that comes along with it. Today, power and privilege are largely accruing to people who are members of the cognitive elite. So, to preserve that power and privilege you marry and mate with other people who are cognitive elites, and have (and raise) cognitive elite kids who can also be… Read more »
Agent P As she all but ignores her mother and only really defers to me on everything from math homework to fashion choices, it will fall on me to have the ongoing “correction” talk(s) with her. +1. And you do not care if her friends parents think you are controlling… Because you are living in your frame. I have 4 daughters… they NEED your push back on them and do not hesitate to shame them or call out their friends or cultural icons for unacceptable behavior. They will push you, but you hold what they require – your approval. More… Read more »
@ehintellect I concur about the UMC, marriage stability thing. Given that I come from and live in that world I totally concur there is much more traditional social structure available to prop up marriages. even if the end game for UMC’s is simply to preserve wealth there is definitely a culture that actively values marriage and not just the momentary act but rather the enduring act of marriage. That’s not to say that I don’t encounter dysfunction in marriages in my milieu but overall I never hear young women being disparging about marriage. Yes a huge number of them step… Read more »
@Sentient Only one of them gets spanked anymore. She does appreciate it when I administer discipline. All hail frame, my frame! God, thank the good lord for RP. I remember what I was like five or six years ago. I never could have reconciled in my head how spanking my wife could be great for my marriage. What a pathetic fuck I was, getting tossed about in life without understanding how to get things in order. I had an idea, I had boundless energy but I had no idea how the meta of my life needed to be organized to… Read more »
Lololol – a video for Sentient in particular – an RSD video podcast with Tyler and Julien talking about Trump and Brexit and aliens. Seriously.
I don’t even know if it’s any good, I’m just watching now but I HAD to post it:
Man! You crack me up.
I posted earlier a bit about fatties. Word brother. I don’t see them, they don’t exist and should be shunned from polite society til they trim up.
Tolerable pretty women are the only ones worthwhile.
All other require a frank rhetorical backhand.
Oh, speaking of backhands…
I get that mentally shaping children endures. At any rate, an on-the-spot open hand swat to the ass perseveres in the young mind, driving the lesson home, to a preteen bratty girl.
Lest we let her pre-installed shit-test arsenal gain value.
Re: Murray and assortative mating. Be careful to not impute correlation based on your biases @AgentP and others. Murray isn’t looking strictly at UMC – he’s looking at another demographic, that being the “Super Zips”, places like Greenwich CT or Cambridge MA or the Upper East Side, or DC burbs or Silicon Valley. He’s focusing on where the new elite live, giving it the shorthand ‘Belmont”. So he’s capturing well above UMC but also UMC which is why it’s so interesting. One difference between Super Zip and UMC is that Super Zip is 78% self identified as Progressive and Liberal… Read more »
@Scribblerg: be careful about not getting One-itis for your HB9. It can happen even if you know about it. Having sex with her facilitates it, but isn’t necessary either.
A map of the 650 or so so called super zips It is interesting that not just wealth is considered for this but wealth (or income probably more accurately) and a college degree. I suspect this leaves out some more rural enclaves developed on natural resource wealth. One interesting area to explore is the liberal / conservative line and how mindsets like those in Berkeley differ from those in Dallas… the emphasis on health and such not quote penetrating to the same degree, etc. The differences between the NE and CA coast and mid america, the south etc. One of… Read more »
@IAS – Good reminder. But I think the revelation in her case is that I’m not getting OneItis, like I’m the only man in her rotation who isn’t…She can’t figure me out and can’t make sense of her attraction to me, as fickle as it is. She rents little space in my head so I’m good. What’s been amazing is watching her play to script. I laid out her entire motif about a year ago and she was so angry at the time, but now comes back and tells me I was right about everything. Like I helped her boil… Read more »
Prior to the sixties and up through the early eighties main stream social custom supported men seeking brides, marrying, making commitments and supporting their wives and families. Current main stream culture discourages, demoralizes and ridicules men who want the same. But change is occurring and not only from within. The discouragement and demoralization are unintended yet inevitable negative consequences of this site, the red pill and the manosphere. Presently, the actual costs and risks to a man associated with making a commitment to a woman now far outweigh any imaginary benefits. Adding insult to injury, men are accused of being… Read more »
Guys, bottom line is this: if you can score consistently with the average young american woman (1-6 hrs face time, no relationship promises), you are above average. you are top 20%. *drumroll* 20-29, 160-165 pounds, 5’3, normal face. Yeah lol…paradise, right? tell him what he’s won Johnny….. A lot of dudes in the manosphere don’t even know how to evaluate their SMV in relation to the opposite sex. A lot of them are above average but are chasing after chicks where the competition is RIDICULOUS. Sorry, IRL, going after a thin 7 is going to be a tough one. Going… Read more »
There isn’t any way out of this one, folks, on a systemic level. With women inundating the workforce, there were going to inevitably be rules put in place to prevent the sea of workplace betas from “harassing” them (i.e., showing unwanted interest). That was inevitable — otherwise how are you going to ensure sanity in a dual-sex workplace. Sure, the minority of us with Game aren’t subject to the same regime, de facto (we are de jure, and that can bite if you’re careless), but at the same time we can’t be stupid enough to understand that it really *is*… Read more »
1. Practice sexual apartheid i.e. separate male and female workers into different departments, offices etc. 2. Do the same in the education system, keep sex-segregated schools. 3. Ban all sexual advances in the workplace i.e. don’t legally allow for the possibility of “wanted” sexual advances. Well on 1 and 2, in the US at least, we have a really shitty legal precedent that seeped into the popular memeplex about “separate is not equal”, and it came from something not having to do with bio sex at all, so kind of fucked there — train not even allowed to leave the… Read more »
Hence one of the core problems of the manosphere. What we do works for us, and can work for any man who puts his mind to it properly. It cannot work systemically, however — the system in which what we do “works” is itself based on a context where most men are AFCs. If there weren’t zoning in place keeping these AFCs in their place, the whole order we live in, and which we benefit from financially, socially and so on in terms of prosperity and stability, would break down and we would all be the worse for it. So,… Read more »
Let’s also keep something in mind. Sexual zoning is implemented for the sole purpose of preserving a social order that is monumentally wasteful and inefficient, in economic terms. Most of the female workplaces it’s supposed to make more comfortable are make-work office jobs for affirmative action beneficiaries, and the female college students it’s supposed to benefit are indebting themselves and sacrificing their fertility and femininity in order to earn worthless degrees. Sexual zoning doesn’t underpin prosperity, it erodes it.
So prolonged stability and prosperity didn’t exist before this ambiguous sexual zoning was implemented? http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Charlie-Murphy-Laughing-Chappelles-Show-Prince.gif Whether now or in the days of “yore,” true attraction followed the same rules. A more patriarchal society isn’t the answer if true desire within the confines of a civilized society is what you seek. More broadly, however, yes….”prolonged stability and prosperity,” i.e. “civilization” didn’t exist before this intra-societal competition and hierarchy was implemented. Civilization is the majority of the populous serving a dominant minority and playing that minority’s rules. Those rules determine who gets what — mates doubly so. That’s what the social conditioning… Read more »
So prolonged stability and prosperity didn’t exist before this ambiguous sexual zoning was implemented? You don’t get to go backwards. Sure, in history we had this under a more patriarchal system. We could try going back to that, but what army do you have that will do that, because it will take one. That and lots of police. Unless there is massive scarcity, which creates conditions for it to emerge organically. Otherwise, we are in an equalist model, and under an equalist model, you need to keep the betas productive yet sexually neutered so that they and the women are… Read more »
Thanks for your post on super zips, very insightful. I read the articles when they first came out and still find the concept fascinating.
Wondering if that may account for some of the disconnect between the OMGs and YSGs.
FWIW, I live in a super zip, surrounded by or in close proximity to other super zips and find my life experiences more aligned to comments made by Blax, Sentient & SJF, for reasons other than our mutual age demographic… I suppose an abundance mindset is easier cultivate/maintain when you’re living in the ‘Hierarchy of Needs’ top tier?
Sexual zoning doesn’t underpin prosperity, it erodes it.
Depends on who you are. For the middle, yep. For the upper, nope. Upper are having a field day under this system, in terms of prosperity. A field day. The core is getting a key to the club level of life.
That sexual apartheid is already a natural progression in the workplace:
Just as I quoted Hollenhund, the MGTOW plan of avoidance is simply a matter of course now. Hell, HR departments don’t exist to actually address corporate culture, company morale or employees handbooks, they exist as an insurance against sexual harassment and discrimination litigations. This is why most HR depts. are run and directed overwhelmingly by women. In fact, I can’t even think of an HR dept. of any company I’ve ever worked for in the last 26 years that wasn’t entirely staffed by women.
@Chump No More – Ya, I brought this up a thread or two back, about the social stratification of divorce and fatherless families and how the UMC largely avoids doing so. This is why I keep harping on the politics. People love to say “politics is downstream from culture”, yawn, this is when I know I’m speaking with a naif. Human society is a non-linear, chaotic dynamical system that doesn’t fit with such simple ideas. Politics – when they control as much of the economy and social order as our govt does – has immense leading and feedback power. In… Read more »
Re: Avoidance – Yup, it’s better to stay clear of women at work. I used to fuck women at regularly the time back in the day, but these days? Be careful. But it’s also true some guys made a mess of it back then. My rules have always been: 1. Don’t fuck the cray-cray girls. Work or not, they will cause drama and social problems, and maybe legal ones too. No matter how hard your dick gets, run from cray-cray pussy. 2. Keep it a complete secret. Make sure nobody knows. Period. Don’t hang out in the office together or… Read more »
@scribbleberg Super Zip is 78% self identified as Progressive and Liberal and only 11% as Conservative. True enough. Superzip liberal or superzip conservative labeling is cosmetic generally. The behaviors of those in the superzips are relatively conservative. They all value long work hours, the success sequence (education, work, marry, kids – in order, no skipping steps), some nominal religious involvement, and community involvement too. Low divorce rates, lower elective abortion rates. Similar example would be U.S. Senators. Republican, Democrat, conservative, Liberal all would rather hang out with each other because of shared class values rather than anyone who aligns with… Read more »
“The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.” It is possible for men to not WANT to put the effort into learning Game. It’s hard. Don’t kid yourself. Especially so for men who have grown up through their FORMATIVE YEARS with porn and videogames (i.e. my generation). Whose brains have been wired to virtual rewards instead of social and sexual ones. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to put the time and effort and stress into learning Game as long as you accept that that’s your choice. That’s where I’m at. The whole “Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better”… Read more »
To tie a couple of postings above together: Novaseeker: “We have to neuter workplaces to keep the Betas from going after the girls” Hollenhund: “Sexual zoning is implemented for the sole purpose of preserving a social order that is monumentally wasteful and inefficient, in economic terms. Most of the female workplaces it’s supposed to make more comfortable are make-work office jobs for affirmative action beneficiaries, and the female college students it’s supposed to benefit are indebting themselves and sacrificing their fertility and femininity in order to earn worthless degrees. Sexual zoning doesn’t underpin prosperity, it erodes it.” Novaseeker: “It works… Read more »
Rollo HR departments don’t exist to actually address corporate culture, company morale or employees handbooks, they exist as an insurance against sexual harassment and discrimination litigations. This is why most HR depts. are run and directed overwhelmingly by women. In fact, I can’t even think of an HR dept. of any company I’ve ever worked for in the last 26 years that wasn’t entirely staffed by women. Sensei, I believe you have cause and effect reversed. Due to women’s known 4:1 ingroup preference, any time you have 2 women in a department over time it will become 90% female. HR… Read more »
“End it gently and provide some comfort along the way”
you get them to end it, which is easy once you know red pill
HH / Nova
2. Do the same in the education system, keep sex-segregated schools.
This is emerging again in private schools. It is widely implemented now in Math/science curriculum.
” you get them to end it, which is easy once you know red pill ”
That’s what i prefer, too !
@EhIntellect – But in fact, Progressives and Conservatives are becoming much more separated and differentiated culturally and socially from each other. While what you say is true about marriage, that is by no means what it means to be conservative or progressive. Getting divorces isn’t a “Progressive” value… Conservatives and Progressives of the same income differ in the following ways: They watch different news. Consume different entertainment. Eat different food. Go to different churches. Send their kids to different schools. They socialize within their ideological group far more exclusively than happened 50 years ago. They drive different cars. Vacation different… Read more »
@Anonymous Reader – Ding, ding. Female ingroup preferences explain a lot of what we see in hiring and buying preferences today. Ran into a female sales rep recently (to whom i’m a thought leader) and was discussing her cold calling. She worked for a female oriented media property and had an all female team. She told he how she overtly worked the ‘girl solidarity’ angle all the time, telling prospects to “be my girl and get this done” – imagine if i ever spoke to a woman in business thusly? I’d be hung from the rafters. I remember when the… Read more »
@ Softek Testify it louder brother. My 23 y.o. nephew has got a macho beard MMA /rugby mindset. His “look”. He is hard charging, hard-drinking, doesn’t have that much of a future plan, dropped out of school. Delivers furniture. Likes what he likes, to hell with other’s opinions. My sister want him to hang out with me as if I’ll rub off some beta bucks success technique onto him. I refuse to even go there. When we hang out I usually just get ripped with him. He’s pissed, wants to joust a windmill or two. Why should I get in… Read more »
@klem Just watched that episode you recommended in the other post. Sad indeed. Something I talk about with my wings is noticing all the girls at the bar, snapchatting the illusion of having a good time. Like one second they have this expressionless face sipping their drink. Checking their phone here and there. Then it’s ok time to let my followers see how fun were having put on your fake happy mask for a couple seconds for this video real quick. Then leave. Also cringed at the beta husband in the second half of the episode. Probably would be me… Read more »
Not divorces per se but knocking the pillar of heterosexual nuclear marriage out from the load-bearing wall of our culture is a progressive goal. But not for their own marriages or thier kid’s.
I’m in flyover country and admit to a anti-acela corridor bias. I tend to assume Superzips there are homogeneous.
@FIWL Now i need to keep few stories(practiced a few times) that are triggers of attraction according to MM that I can repeat at the right time. This will help: http://www.venusianarts.com/how-to-write-dhv-stories/ Just that since I know, small talk doesn’t help me in gaming girls and make me look asexual, I don’t do small talk with girls and at the same time get stuck on thinking what to say by not being sexual also. Not sure what you are saying here exactly. I’ll assume you mean that you get in your head and don’t know what to say so you get… Read more »
Seems to me there are two foundational problems at work between the sexes: 1. Last night’s consensual sex becomes this morning’s regret – so “rape”; 2. Yesterday’s hunk of a husband becomes today’s boring Mr. Invisible – so blow up the family for the exciting, imaginary, new alpha potential provider / husband. Seems to me we could fix both of these issues with a few society-wide rules of behavior; A. No alone-time between the sexes unless chaperoned by an adult male. (Rule doesn’t apply to those who are husband and wife.) B. Parents select a mate whom they believe is… Read more »
Consider that the reason women so readily believe in the Patriarchy and the male evil scheme to deprive them of a fair shake is because women almost always project…”Equal” indeed.”
Not divorces per se but knocking the pillar of heterosexual nuclear marriage out from the load-bearing wall of our culture is a progressive goal. But not for their own marriages or thier kid’s. Yes, it’s mostly virtue signaling. “I think correctly, like you do”. Despite living lives like the 1950s, they “think” people should be “free to choose what they want”, yet don’t comment that everyone in their neighborhood makes the same choices they did. It’s all about signalling virtue, righteousness and being “enlightened” in our social group — it doesn’t actually impact choices they make in their personal lives… Read more »
“A lot of dudes in the manosphere don’t even know how to evaluate their SMV in relation to the opposite sex.
The game requires you to both a) act as if you are the highest value ever and b) know exactly what value everyone else places on you in the moment, and c) not let b) affect a).”
Scray, could you explain this a bit more?
@newbie Irrational self confidence. What you feel, she feels. If you don’t believe you are the best she can get, why the fuck is she gonna care about you lol? How you think of yourself comes through in your subcomms, and girls pick up on that. Now, just because you think you are high value doesn’t mean that society shares the same opinion. If you are short like scray, or a chubby average looking dude like yareally, you shouldn’t be able to pull hotties. People EXPECT you not to be able to do that. So you have to ignore that… Read more »
@Anonymous Reader – A good refinement.
@ Sentient and all puas That Mystery clip is interesting. Mystery has changed little to nothing of his original method including his 7 hours to sex view. And he still sees DHV stories as one of the major attraction building tools. Jesus, he’s stuck back in 2002. After watching that clip I see why no one teaches it anymore. Even though it is a good deconstruction of what mating looks like these days, its needlessly complicated and imo unwieldy. I have seen better systems offered by newer guys. Alex Social and Valentino Kohen (both former RSD instructors) both offer updated… Read more »
Meanwhile, on some of the smaller college campuses, first year students, aka Freshmen, are being brainwashed about Toxic Masculinity.
This is part of the reality of being an 18 year old man in some parts of the US. Older men that one is required to respect teaching about “toxic masculinity”, that the Sandy Hook killings were a result of “toxic masculinity”.
@newbie Scray, could you explain this a bit more? Sure. When I roll into a room, I need to know — BEFORE ANYONE SAYS OR DOES ANYTHING IN RELATION TO ME — how the people in that room likely view me. What do I look like? What do people tend to associate with that look? What do the people here look like? What do they likely value? What are the niches? Where do they think I fit in (or not)? Based on all of that and my outward appearance — what do they think my value is? Now, how do… Read more »
@gb_hill And he still sees DHV stories as one of the major attraction building tools. Jesus, he’s stuck back in 2002 Nah it’s still correct lol. For all newbies and intermediates, forget MM other than as a source of game theory. Better to focus on the newer systems coming out. Yes but not for the reason you think. MM is the highest level advanced stuff. Most dudes who come to TRP, TRM, the manosphere, game, etc. are starting from such a social deficiency that MM is too advanced. MM is for cool, well-liked guys who can get women already, but… Read more »
OK. I’m busted. By Scribblers super zip talk. My zip rates 98% Super Zip with what what I consider not a super high income (140K)but also 65% college graduates. My zip code is pretty small and nestled into other non-super zip codes. It is a small collected (homogeneous people) community among other diverse zip codes. My zip code has non-diversity among the people in it. We are not well above UMC at all, probably smack in the UMC. And super conservative. And despite former labels ascribed to me here, not very religious (paradoxically though–religious raised, but you wouldn’t notice religious… Read more »
Having ego abundance isn’t the problem. Talking explicitly about it so frequently and then responding to arguments against or about it comes across as insecurity which is perceived as a lack of congruence in light of such supposed ego and success. It sounds like somebody trying to talk their self in to their own awesomeness by convincing those around them to agree.
I’m pretty sure that’s why you get the pushback.
@Softek October 18, 2016 at 11:07 am I reject out of hand what you said there. That is settling talk. That implies that you are seeking a completion in life and not looking out for your purpose and pursuit in the long run. Get some more guy friends that trust you and you trust in real life. Make it a priority. It is essential for masculine perspective. You are thinking like a defeated guy. That is a choice. It’s not about working/trying harder, but being more efficient and mastering your strategy in your situation. If you had a group of… Read more »
Get some more guy friends that trust you and you trust in real life. Strangely enough, I never expected this to be as hard as its been. Even in the small MC I’ve joined (run by a couple hard cases that have done time), there’s so much blue pill capitulation it’s impossible to entirely trust anyone in it. Not sure how long I’ll remain with them. Even the couple guys I’ve met out and about worth trusting (and it really is only a couple) over the past year of really getting out there to meet people are impossible to get… Read more »
gb_hIll Re MM I would say it depends on your objectives. If you just want to go out an get laid tonight, you can use flash game, screening (in it’s many, many forms – from initial venue selection to girls, to iois etc.) and also just overwhelming attraction. Doing mostly ONS game, this is confirmed, over and over. There may even be a little art to it. A lot of the ‘RSD” style game I would put in this category. Most of my stuff in situ is overwhelming attraction… building a huge bubble off this, a hint of comfort and… Read more »
@ Sun I posted this in the Case Study comments. As I am learning, many guys don’t seem to have, or believe that they can have real friends. ” @ klem I apparently have a much, much different relationship with my male friends than you do. The guys I mentioned, we speak openly and honestly. No one is concerned with impressing another. That’s why we’re friends in the first place. It is an immense help in life for men to have true, real friends. Someone who will not ever judge you for honesty. It’s extremely difficult to cultivate these relationships.… Read more »
@Sun Wukong “Talking explicitly about it so frequently and then responding to arguments against or about it comes across as insecurity which is perceived as a lack of congruence in light of such supposed ego and success.” “I’m pretty sure that’s why you get the pushback.” I don’t disagree with you at all. I’ve said it a million times that I’m not very good at expressing myself. I totally agree with my lack of resonance here. And accept responsibility for not getting my thoughts across well. I won’t stop advocating for abundance mentality through mastery. I’m not going to all… Read more »
Another thing about MM being ‘difficult” is Mystery is executing it in the videos and he is just sooooo super super solid. Plus he does magic and is 6’4″ (my main “knock” if you will – does not discredit his teaching at all, just a fact)…
@Sun Wukong “Me: Get some more guy friends that trust you and you trust in real life.” You: “Strangely enough, I never expected this to be as hard as its been. Even in the small MC I’ve joined (run by a couple hard cases that have done time), there’s so much blue pill capitulation it’s impossible to entirely trust anyone in it. Not sure how long I’ll remain with them. Even the couple guys I’ve met out and about worth trusting (and it really is only a couple) over the past year of really getting out there to meet people… Read more »
@scrib Can you sketch out a rough outline of how you got from where you were to where you are now in game? I have been flailing around without much advancement over the last year (some of which is definitely the language barrier in this non-English-language country where I live). If you could send a note to yourself when you were just starting to learn game, what steps would you tell yourself to take? Because my results have been sporadic, I want to put together a game plan for getting better at game. @Sentient You had a similar journey, correct?… Read more »
What tips do you want?
What is your situation?
Relationship game, pickup game, in a relationship, married? Wanting to spin plates?
From your questions I take it you are older and single. Right?
Your situation would predicate recommendations on the direction of advice.
What are your mindset feelings and stumbling blocks to game?
@Hoellenhund, “Here’s the thing: as disgusting as that probably sounds, the fact is that those depressed, intolerable land whales won’t change their ways unless men start incentivizing them to do so.” How do we incentivize them? (honest question, not loaded snark) —Do we incentivize by withdrawing? —Or by becoming yet better men? On the international scale, Anglo men already outclass Anglo females by about 6 SMV points on average. It only seems to torque up the pressure on men while letting women off the hook even moreso. I can’t see how a guy can game a fatty into shape or… Read more »
It’s funny how women will try to pass over their unattractiveness, and base their lack of sex or unapproachability on a man’s immaturity or lack of gonads. They don’t even realise the gynocentric zeitgeist they pushed for and advocate constantly, resulting in their increased unattractiveness & decreasing incentive to to pair, or have sex with them, is what I causing this. It’s always…”grow up”, or some other bullshit. Never realizing that I mentioned don’t want women, maybe women are the problem…. Claudia Schiffer was not even that hot then…as Steve Crowder says, we have a divining right between our legs… Read more »
@hank what you said about flirting cleared up many things for me now. Thanks. Because you see the flirt word used everywhere by every goddamn person, and for a guy like me who never interacted with girls previously except for here and there (I was actually a misanthrope to be precise), I just couldn’t get what it meant. So, according to your words, I think i am flirting these days even with social circle girls lol. Especially these days, with every girl , i look at her eyes like my life is dependent on not breaking the eye contact. lol.… Read more »
@kaminsky How do we incentivize them? (honest question, not loaded snark) —Do we incentivize by withdrawing? —Or by becoming yet better men? On the international scale, Anglo men already outclass Anglo females by about 6 SMV points on average. It only seems to torque up the pressure on men while letting women off the hook even moreso. I can’t see how a guy can game a fatty into shape or why he would take the time.” Those obviously wouldn’t work. These women don’t currently see their “fellow” men as potential husbands or partners, so male withdrawal won’t change their attitudes.… Read more »
This is at the same time, me, and not me. I had game. I did well for myself. I got more ass than a toilet seat. Then a couple of LTRs took me off the market for a few years. A rough breakup pushed me to find RP. I say I ‘had’ game, because in the time I was off the market, the smart phone happened. I still haven’t figured out how to best that damned validation machine. But moving on… I’m in my late 30s, I’m an electrical engineer. I try. I work. I don’t sit in my mother’s… Read more »
Here’s a story for Mitch, Softek that sadly illustrates the outcomes of relationships with BPDs; http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/jim-carrey-fights-back-against-lawsuits-in-personal-account-of-ex-girlfriend%E2%80%99s-suicide/ar-AAj7dXD?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp “”In the declaration, obtained by Variety, Carrey professed that he “truly cared” for White but like all couples they had their “ups and downs.” Carrey said that he paid for White’s housing and provided her a stipend, but turned down her request for marriage so she could avoid deportation back to Ireland. In order to obtain a green card, White married Burton, even though she and Carrey were still dating. Carrey vehemently denied White’s 2013 accusations that he gave her three sexually transmitted diseases, and even got back with… Read more »