Sexual Zoning

sex_zone

Höllenhund brought up an interesting thought a few weeks ago:

This reminds me of something I wanted to ask here in general. The general narrative about MGTOW in the ‘sphere is that they are “avoiding women”. A more general narrative pushed in the mainstream media by Zimbardo, Hymowitz, Milo and other blue/purple pill journalists is that a growing number of young men are avoiding women.

What does “avoiding women” precisely mean in the current socio-cultural context in the West? The word “avoid” entails some sort of active, deliberate, protective measure. My problem with that is that the “avoidance of women”, or a breakaway from women doesn’t look like that at all in practice today, because the social context of male-female interaction has changed completely in the last 2-3 decades.

This is something our pal Novaseeker has described before. In the bygone Western social system, young people were expected to regularly interact with one another in controlled, regulated environments, in a way that fostered productive, long-term, monogamous, assortative relationships. This was a sort of “holistic” milieu, so to speak, where young people treated one another as potential future partners, sexual and otherwise, in a socially regulated manner, in all cases when they were permitted to interact. This was even the norm in workplaces where both men and women were present. The average man found a girlfriend through his extended family or social circle, because families and social circles were normally large.

What we have today is the complete opposite: “sexual zoning”. Some mixed-sex environments, like the workplace, schools and campuses, are made completely asexual – sterile, so to speak. No sexualized interactions are permitted to take place. This is demanded by law and expected by society. In such environments, you’re supposed to treat members of the opposite sex strictly as colleagues or professionals, non-sexual beings. (Hot men are allowed to get away with more, of course, but that’s another issue.) Other mixed-sex environments, on the other hand, like nightclubs, are expected to be full-on sexual. Everybody there knows that all interactions entail the future possibility of casual sex. It’s basically a meat market. You’re expected to hit on girls, and girls expect to be hit on by attractive men. Socializing in these environments requires action, engagement. If you want to find a partner, either just for sex or something more, you have to go there, you have to have Game etc.

In other words, avoidance of women in the old days was an anti-social act of disengagement that was frowned upon. Today, avoidance of women merely means that you’re not expending excess energy and time to do certain things. It’s an “action” with few or no social repercussions – you won’t be socially ostracized or something. But technically it’s not an action. You’re basically “avoiding” women by not hitting the clubs on Saturday night. You’re avoiding them through simple inaction. You can have a full-time job, or go to college, have a social circle, have hobbies, buddies etc., basically a normie life, and still “avoid” women.

I thought this was an interesting observation because there is a stark contradiction in how these sexual zones are presented to men by women. From an old books perspective, men are still expected to be the initiators. It is incumbent upon men to be the sex that approaches and expresses intimate interest in women, and men who don’t, or who fail to build themselves into acceptable mates for women are shamed as being perpetual adolescents or just “giving up.” Our feminine-primary social mandate still promotes the expectation that men will prepare for, and initiate with, women.

However, from a new books perspective men are, as Höllenhund illustrates, expected to know their place in respect to whatever sexual zone they find themselves in, as well as having an understanding of how they are perceived in the SMP. So, in an asexual zone such as a college campus or the workplace, men are expected to know their SMV and act or not act accordingly. Men not meeting or exceeding what would make for an optimized Hypergamy with women are expected not to initiate or approach. In fact, this expected understanding extends to sexual zones and fosters the avoidance Höllenhund talks about here.

For all of the handwringing from feminine-primary gender pundits about men ‘dropping out’ of life or the SMP, it is this contradiction in atmosphere that promotes the avoidance. Hypergamy, being the prime directive of westernized societies, is figuratively best served when women are in complete and unilateral control of sexual selection. Thus, we see laws and social dictates installed to encourage men to self-select themselves out of the process and make this selection easier for women. Men will be shamed for not initiating and not approaching, but simultaneously be held accountable for as much as hate crimes if they step outside what they are expected to know are their appropriate sexual zones.

http://time.com/3852117/millennials-sex-parents-boomers/

Recently there’s been a spate of articles all attempting to explain why millennials aren’t getting after it in an age when it’s never been easier to hook up. Try as they will, nearly all of the explanations fail to account for how sexual zoning has affected the sexual marketplace today. Millennials have the ‘hook up generation’ reputation, but statistically they’re not doing much fucking.

Noah Patterson, 18, likes to sit in front of several screens simultaneously: a work project, a YouTube clip, a video game. To shut it all down for a date or even a one-night stand seems like a waste. “For an average date, you’re going to spend at least two hours, and in that two hours I won’t be doing something I enjoy,” he said.

It’s not that he doesn’t like women. “I enjoy their companionship, but it’s not a significant part of life,” said Patterson, a Web designer in Bellingham, Washington.

He has never had sex, although he likes porn. “I’d rather be watching YouTube videos and making money.” Sex, he said, is “not going to be something people ask you for on your résumé.”

One aspect that these largely millennial writers themselves seem oblivious to is the complexities of sexual zones that shift constantly for guys. In 2016 hooking up is easy, we’ve got Red Pill awareness and we have instantaneous communication, but what we don’t have are clearly defined sexual zones. Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.

This is a common refrain from MGTOWs. It’s usually some variation of  “why should I waste my time trying to untangle some girl’s head just to put myself at risk of a sexual harassment or rape accusation?”

Fred Flange had this comment a few weeks ago:

Co-sign, and this “soft MGTOW” observation ties in nicely with the WashPost’s “no sex please we’re collegiate” article. MGTOW is now socially subsidized and easy to implement: just do nothing! At college, don’t engage in class, or even better, “attend” the lectures on-line. Say no more in class or lab than you must, then leave. Start no convos, you won’t be dragged into any. All of this goes for cubicle workers: in the lunchroom, stare at your phone, or eat at your desk, or if you can, get outside but go alone. No feelings caught, no feelings hurt. Everybody gets nothing, therefore everybody wins.

Eventually you can learn the fine art of disappearance in urban settings: yes you occupy space, but other than someone bumping into you, it is possible to go anywhere without your registering with anyone in the vicinity, not even cops. You can switch it on and off like a light.

One possible corollary to look for: see if the “bros before homes” shaming begins to die down. It should. Because before that you patriamalarkey-preaching Tumblr-inas insisted you wanted that cheesy-bro to go? He’s GONE! Soft MGTOW is the mandated social paradigm, outside of “safe social zones” like public streets, malls, clubs, etc. plus in some workplaces and colleges it’s law. You’re going to complain about men obeying the law?

There’s also no shortage of articles decrying the absence of boys and young men these days too. The frequent bugbear in these always point to guys ‘dropping out’ and playing X-Box all day. From America’s Lost Boys:

Young men, significantly more so than young women, are stuck in life. Research released in May from the Pew Center documented a historic demographic shift: American men aged 18-30 are now statistically more likely to be living with their parents than with a romantic partner. This trend is significant, for one simple reason: Twenty- and thirtysomething men who are living at home, working part-time or not at all, are unlikely to be preparing for marriage. Hurst’s research says that these men are single, unoccupied, and fine with that—because their happiness doesn’t depend on whether they are growing up and living life.

Now, granted, this article presumes men’s adulthood ought to be measured by his capacity to get involved with a woman, support a family and maintain a steady job. It’s very hard for writers who tackle this topic to pull their heads out of the old books reasonings. Thus, the go-to answer to the question of ‘why do guys drop out?’ is video games. It’s far easier to goof on men as a whole if they can be made to look juvenile, lazy or stupid to the point men not knowing what’s good for them.

It would take a real effort to tackle the larger reasons as to why men drop out, and men like Samuel James (article author) would be forced to acknowledge the disincentives for men to participate in what his old books reasonings tell him is some mutually beneficial arrangement. Those disincentives don’t paint women in a very flattering light, so it’s much easier to dismiss them as garden variety misogyny.

The drop out generation are content with their lot in life because they’ve accepted the realities of a social order that debases men and manhood to being appliances to better serve women’s imperatives. And the risks of investing themselves in a relationship or finding the inner will to become better men for the sake of “growing up” are significant when the rules of engagement and the acceptable sexual zones are constantly changing.

The Damage Done By ‘Mattress Girl’

“Even in less extreme situations, young men are more skeptical of women’s ability or propensity to consent to sex, which some women on campus consider demeaning.

“I find that men are more and more interested in ensuring that I’m consenting before sex, which would seem like a good thing,” Columbia student Dylan Hunzeker said. “But sometimes I don’t necessarily feel that way. Especially when I have to answer a man’s question: ‘are you sure you’re not too drunk?’ Or ‘you want to have sex with me?’ In a sense, it’s annoying and debilitating to be constantly questioned about whether or not I have agency and am a sexual human being.”

“Men are scared of women on campus now, and fear breeds anger and prejudice. Women are frustrated by men, which inspires a lack of desire to collaborate for solutions.”

I would argue that a large majority of men accused of sexual harassment or even just suspected of impropriety are men who’ve found themselves in an environment they believed was an acceptable sexual zone. We are fast approaching a time when all zones will be so arbitrary and ambiguous that every environment with sexual potential will be avoided. This will have the effect of putting women into unilateral control of their own Hypergamy. It will be a state of Sadie Hawkins world – only women will make approaches on men and only those who match her Hypergamous ideal, an ideal fostered and reinforced by a steady diet of social media ego inflation.

It’s ironic that authors bemoaning the drop out generation of men never acknowledge the other side of the disincentives for men – those generated by a feminine-primary social narrative – the generation of women who remain unmarried well into their middle age. When this is explored, once again, it’s the result of the juvenile, ridiculous men that same narrative has created for itself.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

507 comments on “Sexual Zoning

  1. Hoellenhund

    True, true.

    The incentives in my industry is to maintain and increase obesity to feed (heh) the economy of orthopedics, bariatrics. We ain’t in it to cure, just score income from another’s willed dysfunction. I’m an ancillary player, guilty too. Food Inc. helps drive this slow-moving train wreck.

    It’s not a cabal of secret players, more an open conspiracy. Society demands we shouldn’t shame fatties publicly as a convention but it does require a lot of top down pressure and heaps of non-existent money to continually drive this wedge between the sexes, pretend guys should marry up sluts, overfeed people, give people essentially free knee replacements, maintain the illusion of rape crises, talk of a U.S. hunger crisis, and in the next sentence speak of the obesity crisis. Blah, blah.

    “Trends that can’t continue, won’t.” I hope we don’t act too surprised when the edifice of stability collapses. Reminds me of the fall of the Berlin wall. The USSR was solid, until it wasn’t, and the wizards of smart pretended they predicted it all along.

    I haven’t squared this circle yet. I’m still to financially attached to the matrix but know I’m not alone in occasionally pointing out that the king has no clothes.

  2. Nova’s got it.

    Yes, there will be a lot more “soft MGTOW”. Fully agree here

    I’ve said this elsewhere, but I’ll say it here too.

    Most men aren’t attractive enough to get and keep the interest of a woman long term. They don’t have the genetics for it. Most men won’t learn Game because they can’t. They don’t have the aptitude for it.

    Most men in the near future will not marry and will not have children. A few will be “baby daddies” and won’t live with their children. They won’t have any real relationships with their children, mostly because they won’t earn enough money to support their kids.

    Most men will have sex lives during their entire lives that will resemble the sex life of the average male high school student. They’ll get lucky now and again. A girlfriend here and there. A ONS very, very rarely. All this interspersed with months- or years-long dry spells. Most of his sexual experience will be with porn or with the occasional hooker. He lacks any incentive to better his life. So he won’t get much education or training.

    Since he has no chance of marrying or having kids, he will earn just enough to get by, just enough to support himself, and to buy a few creature comforts. Enough for rent, food, car, internet, beer, weed, and Xbox/Netflix rentals. He doesn’t have to support anyone else, so he won’t earn any more than he has to. Even so his meager income is subject to a 38% federal income tax rate, because he’s not married which pushes him into a higher tax bracket.

    This is what the future dysfunctional SMP is leading to. It occurs to me — could this have been one reason why Rome fell? Too many poor men, idle men with nothing to do, not getting laid, not gathering or amassing property, not enlarging their individual/family territories, becoming isolated and disconnected from their nation, having nothing to live for or fight for?

    That’s going to be fully half the men populating the country. We’re already at the point where unmarried adults are the majority. Half of all men being unmarried/never married? We’re well on our way there.

  3. Oh this guy here is having a gastric sleeve, 161 kg and 3.5 foot abdominal incision.

    This physiological basket case gives me pause whom I’m actually helping. Him? Only in the short term. We’re not getting to the root of why he’s here.

    Me and the system, yeah. F@#k me.

  4. Right. There is always an opportunity to better the system from within, and avoid morally damaging scenarios, at least incrementally. I’m optimistic about this mind set here at TRM (non of this existed a decade ago) and look to help those willing to be helped out here in flyover country. GBA.

  5. “Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.”

    You perfectly described my entire dating life in a single sentence. I remember reaching the point, even as a blue-pill guy, where I imagined there must have been a “secret American breeding grounds” somewhere because everywhere I went (church, college, work, gym) was a strict no-frisky zone. Now that I know it’s real and a permutation of Tinder, alcohol and mind games, it’s a place I don’t even want to visit.

    cheupez @ 11:24 am:
    “I don’t know what we are saying here but it sounds as if we mean to say that MGTOW though being a male strategy to fight hypergamy, it turns out to have an unexpected outcome, favouring hypergamous western woman because it allows men to naturally sort themselves out into the fuckables and the unfuckables, doing the “sorting out” job for her?”

    MGTOW is a response, not a strategy. Women sorted us into the Beta Bux bin and instead of cooperating or trying to reach the Alpha Fux bin, we quietly disappear and salvage what we can. That road from Beta to Alpha is as difficult as women can possibly make it.

    thedeti @ 3:02 pm:
    “It occurs to me — could this have been one reason why Rome fell?”

    Basically. Matriarchy, sexual perversion combined with antinatalism, inviting in the barbarians, unfathomable corruption, economy locked into a death spiral of bread and circuses because the Elites hoarded money & power like a Baby Boomer. But the inability of Rome to micromanage its people allowed for pockets of sanity, like the Eastern portion of the Empire. One could still improve his lot with a change of address.

    Today there’s an undercurrent of desperation. Betas know the score like never before but have ever-shrinking ability to act on the knowledge.

  6. Hi Rollo,

    A blue pill mindset is responsible for the struggles of many men, not only in their dealings with women.

    I am a 30 yo married man and am having trouble maintaining frame. To elaborate, my wife tries to assume responsibility for many different areas of our daily activities.

    I don’t like this because I like controlling my own destiny. My response is to forcefully dictate what we do but she simply will not voluntarily submit to my frame of her own volition.

    I have pondered different ways to improve this like focusing more on my own endeavours and becoming less available to her beck and call on my time!

    She may be looking to her fathers relationship with his wife (where she is the primary decision maker).

    Please let me know your thoughts, ‘my plan is using c&f to break her frame or just say no to every sentence starting with: “we’ll do this” or “we’ll have a look etc”.

    As you can tell the current retaltional dynamic really iritates me as I know thanks to RM that living in a women’s frame ends with her optimisation of her hypergamy.

    Notes: She is 29 yo – slightly overweight. I am 30 and hit the gym 4 times a week and we have 1 son who is approaching 2.

    Would love to hear your thoughts on this scenario!

    All the best Dan

  7. @Play Don’t Pay: “”I guess I’m guilty of going for the “lower hanging fruit” of 35-45 year old still attractive milf/cougar types where I have a proven track record and real DGAF attitude because I know “success ” is replicable in this demographic.””

    A friend of mine is like this. I call him a Carp…just eats whatever is put in front of him. He gets whatever.

    I set my goal of banging only girls 30 or younger 2 years ago. It’s higher risk and higher reward. The girls overall are just nicer. Not all…some are the kind of cocky cunts you don’t want to have anything to do with.

    But I have 2 plates who are 24 and very respectful, drama-free, attentive, generous and fun to be around. With decent game you can weed out the drama queens and time-wasters.

    I get flaked on by 20 year olds—they just don’t show up. In some cases I call them out, in other cases I just say “Make it up to me by coming over and cooking me a steak…”

    Sure I could go after the MILF’s…but it’s fishing with dynamite.

    I get blow outs all the time…number closes that lead no where, blow outs, flakes…but the 7’s and 8’s are hotter…than MILF’s.

  8. finally saw fight club. wasn’t bad, but I think its overhyped.

    @hollenhund

    At this rate, rape will almost completely disappear from Western societies in a few decades, and almost all rapes that do happen will be committed by African and Asian minorities.

    well, sort of. there will be virtually be no rapes by white westernized men while there will be a significant uptick in rapes — though they will be committed almost exclusively by immigrants (particularly mid easterners). See Europe where this is already the case — 1400 rapes committed by pakastani rape gangs in Sweden over a decade yet the data was hidden by the cops since revealing their ethnicity would be raycist.

    expect the same thing to happen here — muslim immigrants rape women, women blame “rape culture” and white men.

    @asdgamer

    If a girl is a 10, just approaching will frequently get you an IOI from her because approaching a 10 demonstrates your high value because of how much balls it takes to approach a 10. Lots of balls = high value

    also pulling. pretty much anytime you try and pull a girl to a new venue/future project you get at least a small spike

    @anonymous reader

    Calibration question: men, please rate Jennifer Lawrence based on pix from the Daily Mail article on the HB 1 to HB 10 scale. List the pic you use.

    Jennifer Lawrence is white. Lol

    Though please continue with the HB calibration stuff. I find mine is veeerrry different from most guys, so its helpful to see what yous guys think. Been trying to get something like that to happen here, good job on starting it anon.

    Man, that got me thinking of what celebrity I think is actually hot…drawing a blank so far.

    @johnnycomelately

    I’ve recently landed a low SMV post Waller several years older than me, she literally chased me hard and wore me down and I put no effort into the interaction.

    Here’s the hang up, I literally have no desire for sex,

    you answered your own question. she’s a low smv post waller. find you a HB7+ 22 year old and then see what happens lol.

    in tests with guys with ed, they found putting him with another woman cured the problem lol. so if you’re with an attractive woman, nature will take its course lol. you may be akward at first, but you will get a hold of it.

    guys nowadays have an issue more because of the lack of hot chicks than anything else. if all you’ve got are landwhales, ofc you’re gonna turn to porn and xbox. back when girls gave a shit, you could find a decent 6-7 at an early age to get experience. nowadays…not so much.

    @playdontpay

    I think men need to understand just how tough the SMP has become these last two decades and where they need to improve to be able to compete.

    the biggest thing is being active. you can’t cruise by just on looks anymore. even if a girl really likes you, she’ll flake like a motherfucker. so you have to always have in your mind the idea that “I’m only gonna see this girl once. After tonite, thats it, shes gone.” And then pushpushpush in every interaction to bounce with the girl, instadate, and then take her to a banging location asap.

    I really don’t think the smp is as quite as difficult as its made out to be, its more that the “dialect” has changed. The language is always the same, but there are slight shifts in focus. Its just like with texting — when it was new, you could do long ass yareally text game. Now, girls have too much attention on their phones. So now with text you have to be more terse and push for a meetup. The difficulty hasn’t changed, its that the BEST way of doing things HAS changed. If you adapt with the times, then the difficulty level remains fairly consistent I think.

    See, the advantage is that there are fewer guys with even a modicum of game, so having even a little sets you way above most guys. Girls may have more options…but they run into guys that really know what they are doing less often. Whereas while girls in the past didn’t have tinder and shit to give them abundance…at the same time, guys were more masculine then so it took more to stand out.

    Like I say, I think things tend to balance out in the end…you just have to adapt to the times. Again, the language is always the same, but the dialect changes all the time.

    @FIWL

    But these days, I have started going to parties i know from social circles and i feel unable to do anything (will freeze up not knowing what to say at times)since going direct will be harmful if the girl isn’t interested and decides to spill beans. I am a new guy to the scene after having worked for months to enter the scene. Just don’t want to ruin reputation in the beginning itself.

    Just be social. That’s a huge DHV. And watch MM, he goes over social dynamics a lot. The idea is just to chat up everyone, make everyone feel good about themselves, then merge groups together. Chat up one dude about his kids or whatever. Relate to him. Make him feel like you and him are the only guys that really *get* it (look up jester method as well, it goes over the “us vs the world” dynamic a bunch). Then find another person. Maybe its a chick thats having trouble with her kid. Well shit, these people have something in common. So you tell the chick “hey, you know what, Fred over there was just talking about this same thing. Fred is and awesome guy, hes funny and runs a successful software business and can cook like a motherfucker.” Then introduce them. Bam, you’ve merged two people. Since they know you best, they will look to you as the leader. Keep merging groups together until then get bigger and bigger and then you are the coolest dude in the room.

    Like I say, this is a huge DHV. The more people you get in a group to look up to you, the more you’ll see girls just “happen” to bump into you. Chat them up. You don’t have to go into sexual areas, but you can still lightly flirt by just teasing them “What, you like Xmen. Ugg, they suck, I hate xmen. You have horrible taste. Lol, I’m just messing. Xmen are cool. I dressed up as wolverine for holloween as a kid. Who’s your favorite? Rogue? Really? The most boring xmen. Here you were starting to seem cool, then you give the most boring answer. So what do you do that *is* exciting…” This isn’t the most efficient, you want to be more sexual with girls, but if you are worried about it you can still get a flirty vibe just from teasing and joking around with her.

    You’re goal is just to merge groups and DHV. When a girl likes you, try to pull her away from the main group. Take her outside to look at the stars, or go to a cool nearby cafe. Doesn’t matter. But once you are alone you can get more sexual/physical with her with having others around to judge her or cockblock you.

    That’s my recommendation — be sociable, tell stories that make you look like a bad ass (protector of loved ones, preselected by women — all that MM DHV stuff), once you find a receptive girl pull her away from the others and then escalate in isolation.

    @thedeti

    Yes, there will be a lot more “soft MGTOW”. Fully agree here

    me too, agree with your whole post and especially with this

    It occurs to me — could this have been one reason why Rome fell? Too many poor men, idle men with nothing to do, not getting laid, not gathering or amassing property, not enlarging their individual/family territories, becoming isolated and disconnected from their nation, having nothing to live for or fight for?

    though it was more to do with the fact there nothing else to conquer. There always has been and always will be men that are piss poor and can’t get laid. Early rome solve this issue by constantly expanding. it was dynamic and in flux. men on the fringes could just join the army and could conquer for the glory of rome. but once rome reaches its largest size…where else was there to go, what else was there to do? So rome fell to cultures that were like what *early* rome was, the barbarians were the ones with the impetus to grow and gain glory.

    Its always been a cycle of growth, extravagance, collapse.

    Men are the ones that create. They are the ones that make the new technologies and culture and everything else that constitutes civilization. Once you disenfranchise men, then civilization implodes and falls to the next set of uppity barbarians.

    Civilizations always need something to work towards, a new frontier to conquer. Whether it is a major war like WWII or the space race or an artistic renaissance, all these frontiers are what give civilizations life. Remove them, and civilizations wither and die. The western world hasn’t had a major opponent or inspiring goal in decades.

    @yareally

    lol.

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/09/13/stalling-for-time/comment-page-3/#comment-170200

    you’re like a month overdue on your promised fr breakdown lolol.

    been out since then, but haven’t had anything major to report. although there was this one chick. chatted with her about beer, she walked up real close to me. my voice is a little on the quite side…but I didn’t feel like I was all that quite here. also, she never did that again, so seemed like a definite IOI to me.

    now, she mentioned that she was fixing dinner. wish I could remember when exactly she said it. I was talking about the kind of beer she could get. I don’t remember if she was more like “oh, yeah, I’m fixing dinner tonite” or if I had pressed her more about what exactly she was having with the beer. regardless, it felt like it was something she threw out there for me to pick up on.

    buuut she was white. lol

    something I could have done then is been like “Whoa, you’re already inviting me over for dinner? That was fast.” and just tease her about that. However, its like that “memory is state assessed” deal where if you are in a good state you think of good memories, bad state then bad memories. Well its the same with girls. If you like the girl your mind naturally goes in a more sexual/teasing/fun direction. If you’re thinking “well, the girl is alright…i guess” lol then not so much.

    @rollo

    yeah I also think the text in the comments could stand to be a point or two larger.

  9. @rollo

    oh yeah and I second sentient that having a better way to search the site for specific comments would be very helpful. I know I like to review some of my FRs from the past and its a bitch and a half to do so.

  10. Thanks for another great insight Rollo. I keep thinking all the music and lyrics from time immemorial must have been done by now, but new songs keep coming along. Everything about women too – and yet there is always more.

    Our feminine-primary social mandate

    Still hoping for the definitive answer to this one, which quite obviously exists. If the much maligned “Patriarchy” ever really existed – how did we get from that to a feminine-primary social mandate? It seems like by definition a patriarchy would have nipped that in the bud.

  11. @D-MAN Dan

    You never entered the marriage with her being in your frame. It is very difficult to flip that situation. Frame is not power.

    Ilimitable Man MAXIM #24: “As her control increases, her attraction and respect decreases. As her control decreases, her attraction and respect increases. If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget his old ways, she will never really believe he is a worthy leader.”

    If you want to learn practical ways to get Frame, the following resources detail this dynamic:

    https://bluepillprofessor.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/hello-world/

    http://www.drglover.com/no-more-mr-nice-guy/the-book.html

    Only two links are allowed here, the third is When I Say No, I Feel Guilty Mass Market
    by Manuel J. Smith

    These three resources are on the sidebar at reddit married red pill. The MRP reddit is a good resource for you.

    Blue Pill Professor’s book outlines a framework on how to work through your situation. (Including withdrawing time and attention for poor behavior, but only withdrawing affection and presence for withholding sex.)

    He has an extended practical plan. Keep in mind that you are also in a precarious position with a two year old son, because her world revolves around her own safety and the well-being of your son. So you have to have some independence (making yourself the best as if you are a single man again and not being needy. You are probably sub-communicating neediness in your attempts to pull her into your frame, while she resists this.)

    One of the more important things to do in marriage is always recognize shit tests and learn how to respond to them. A resource for this is: The Shit Test Encyclopedia at the Illimitable Men blog.
    Google search that after the colon, I can’t spare another link.

    Also, a good thing to do would be to go to Rollo’s sidebar Categories and Click on “Relationship Game” and read the oldest essays by Rollo in that Category. They keep reading them forward in time from the start of the blog (keep clicking on older posts till you get to the older ones). In this category read

    Acing the Test
    Soft Dread
    Just Get It
    RELATIONSHIP GAME – WIFE SEX
    RELATIONSHIP GAME – A PRIMER

    You can get to those directly in the search bar.

  12. Also to our sensei here is my hat tip for making the front page, as it were.

    One refinement: do not expect love peace and happiness will come to the nice girls, or anyone less than an HB7. Their former beta suitors will not be found in social circles, or at work, A few could sign up for It’s Just Lunch, if they travel a lot and look at the ad in the airline mag.

    In short, the average girls won’t have it so good either.

    See the push pull in the Guardian pieces? A whistle at a woman is a crime, But men need to “grow a pair” and approach women, because, uh, er, if you don’t you’re making them lonely, and loneliness kills, which makes you a murderer. But approaching them makes you an assaulter. And oh yeah there’s that man up thing again.

    The young men have learned and listened to the evangel you preach. Dating is over.

    It’s 1952 again, and campus sex live has returned to the days of the morals clause in student manuals from that era: if you fornicate you’re expelled. At the work place, worker fornicating is bad for business, you’re fired (dude). Nothing at church. No one goes anymore, this is the most irreligious generation ever. So no prospects for the good girls there.

    And they can’t stop the pron. Sex workers have rights too, they have to feed their families too, why do you hate on women who are only doIng a job?

    The bad news for the man up preachers:

    No one is going to obey if no one is listening.

  13. @SJF

    Thanks for that link. I’ve learned most of those concepts throughout the manosphere, but it was over time, and I did not always make the connection between mutually supporting factors. Fascinating to see it laid down all at once in one place.

  14. D-MAN

    I am a 30 yo married man and am having trouble maintaining frame. To elaborate, my wife tries to assume responsibility for many different areas of our daily activities.

    How long has this been going on? Is it something in just the last 6 months, or the last couple of years, last 5 years, what?

    I don’t like this because I like controlling my own destiny. My response is to forcefully dictate what we do but she simply will not voluntarily submit to my frame of her own volition.

    Has she always been like this or did she change over some period of time? If the latter, is it associated with any life changes such as job change, move to a different dwellling or town, birth of child, death of relative, etc.?

    I have pondered different ways to improve this like focusing more on my own endeavours and becoming less available to her beck and call on my time!
    She may be looking to her fathers relationship with his wife (where she is the primary decision maker).

    Women pattern on their mothers without question, one way or another. Need to know if you two have always been in this mode, or if it is a change from a previous mode.

  15. Forget the 80/20 rule…I seriously doubt 1 in 5 guys are hookup worthy. It’s more like 1 in 20 on a college campus and probably worse in the real world.

    The average looking guy probably receives less than 5 genuine IOI’s per year. The sexual zone can basically be classified as the male looks threshold for all coed interaction. And the threshold is getting higher by the year. If you don’t get decent matches on Tinder, you have the answer to the sexual zone you are “supposed” to play in. Then, chuck the app and try your best through your social circle.

    Unfortunately, Nova, very few men will be able to “learn” to bang people throughout the office effortlessly. 80% of the battle is picking your parents correctly.

    Part of the redpill is understanding that above basic social competency, game is largely useless due to structural changes. Yes, you can become an approach machine somewhere and do better than other guys, but good luck not getting harassment claims eventually. And, how much time do you have to approach anyway?
    Men are becoming more socially incompetent, though, so there is some benefit for the recluses. Before trying to learn game from a guy who is above average in height and facial features (Mystery), every man ought to first maximize his own leanness, skin, and hair.

    The fact is, Beta providership is nothing to the average woman anymore, especially college girls. Looks are your main selling point. Sure, later, if you’re successful financially and don’t look like shit, you can game post-wall, diseased sluts, as a 35+ year old bachelor. Better rethink your plan if you expect better options than that. Delusions that you are going to be flying high as a corporate drone making 200k+ at 35 are just that, Delusions.

    The only money that makes a difference is fuck you money. 5mil and up before 45 or forget it. Money is increasing becoming useless at all age ranges as far as genuine sexual excitement is considered. Looks standards are going up. Money standards are going up. Beta providership is going to the highest bidder who sold his 20’s in exchange for a used up slut. Competing against other average looking, sociopathic nerds who sold their souls and their youth for a whif of pussy is pathetic. Tindr and Instagram have ruined women. Dissatisfaction with every aspect of their lives. You can never live up to the local celebrity lifestyle she sees in her face everyday along with a hot guy at her side.

    Sexual zoning is real and every man is expected to intuitively know that their mere presence is either an affront or acceptable. Retarded feminist journalists who look at the male drop out simply don’t care about billy beta. They still believe he will turn around in 10 years and marry the sluts. Unfortunately, human capital investments as prioritized by HR departments make it almost impossible for any drop out guy to ever catch up to his AA-hire female peers. They will always earn more than him and hate him for it.

  16. 25% of the population doesn’t reproduce. We need that to become 50%, in order to have a sustainable future.
    Everyone wants their cake and eat it. We want the house, the car, the holidays, the kids and the wife. We also want a good job and enough money to live a comfortable existence.
    The trouble is everyone wants that.

    I work on a construction site. About a month ago a woman slipped on the cobble stones, outside and fell. Some operative were nearby and helped her to her feet. One of them noticed a dildo had fallen from her bag and tactlessly asked her if it was hers.
    She responded in the negative and hurriedly walked away.

    The overall point is we need lost boys and girls. We need a skewed sexual market place so as to see declines in population rates.
    Men who want the wife. Should go out and get the house and the car. As the woman will always follow.

  17. Exactly. What has changed is that the college class, which has expanded, has largely abandoned college as a means of spouse hunting. That is new. It was historically a smaller group than it is now, for certain, but college as spouse hunting is dead now, and that is new — well, new-ish — it was already dying when I was in college in the 80s, but there were still quite a few engaged folks at graduation in my HYS college in the late 80s — not happening now.

    Nova, I think what has happened is that the “life script” women get sold has changed over time. And that life script doesn’t include marriage and kids until they think they’ve gotten some value out of their education in terms of time in the professional world.

  18. Porn, and its ubiquity, feeds into this and amplifies it, without question. On the one hand guys are getting zoned, while on the other, they have strong drives due to testosterone. Porn is the outlet, and it sates the drive just enough to enable men to neuter their sexual response in de-sexed zones on a maintenance, on-going basis — it takes enough of the edge off of the sex drive such that these guys are able to obey the FI zoning more easily

    Nova, good points. There is a lot one could say and explore vis a vis porn and its impact in the current SMP. Porn is real competition and a substitute for real women for many men. I’ve mentioned this before but I think porn has a sort of “Mendoza line effect”. For those unaware, the Mendoza line in baseball refers to a player who was very good defensively but who hit for shit at .200, and the question is at what point does the shitty offense make the guy not Major League material regardless of the defense. Overall in general, the women in porn are more physically attractive then the average woman, and in this day and age this is even true of your average 20-30 year old woman. Now any relationship is going to have the “crap” that goes along with it, like going to her parents barbecue when you’d rather go out with buddies, etc. The question becomes at what point does the crap offset the value of real life pussy vs the 1080p 20 year old hottie on the screen, especially when you start factoring in the risk factors related to this sexual zoning concept.

    Hence a major reason why the FI, despite all of its lip service against porn, really hasn’t done much at all in the way of concrete actions to eliminate it or even restrict it meaningfully — it’s a critical safety valve on which the integrity of the entire contemporary social edifice depends. Men are complicit in this, obviously, but the benefits to the FI social system are quite clear once you step back and look.

    I think this is part of it, but the other component is their is a lot of economic value to be had for women who participate in the “business” of selling their sexuality…porn, stripping, cam girls, escorts, etc. A hot girl in the 18-30 age range can make a lot more money trading on her sexuality than working has a barista at Starbucks, and you see many more participating. Another factor is that any kind of sex work can also be positioned as a woman “exploring her sexuality” or “exercising her sexual agency”. One interesting thing is that as the cultural position on slut shaming is decreasing more and more, you are seeing more and more women enter sex work of one kind or another, even if just part-time.

  19. I get what you are saying. The perspective is that the system is what it is, and the men in question would either be not getting laid without porn or not getting laid with porn, so what is the difference — they ain’t getting laid either way.

    The difference is that there would be many more bucks against the system if we didn’t have the porn we have now. A greater percentage of these guys would “try more”, in other words, and, failing, would be more pissed than today where current porn encourages retreat.

    Porn is anaesthesia, and the best part is that the guys who are “on it” don’t agree that they are being aneasthetized. It doesn’t mean that porn is the reason that these guys can’t get laid, but the effect is that men are relatively numbed, and that numbing creates much less impetus to get laid, which in turn creates much less resistance to an obviously anti-human (anti-male-sex-drive) system, which serves to support it.

    Put another way, and admittedly this is speculation about the impact, but it probably prevents some number of Eliot Rodger incidents.

  20. @Playdontpay: Its absolutely possible. Last week a cute 23 year old approached a friend of mine (49) and asked if he likes to spend the night with her. He lifts and is in shape. Well groomed grey beard.
    Furthermore read the posts of VasiliyZaitzev in the RP reddit.

  21. @hank holiday

    Thanks for the recommendation. Will try out your suggestions. Now i need to keep few stories(practiced a few times) that are triggers of attraction according to MM that I can repeat at the right time.

    I have no problem approaching and opening anybody(thanks to cold approaching girls on streets and going direct). I can make small talk. It is working with guys especially.

    Just that since I know, small talk doesn’t help me in gaming girls and make me look asexual, I don’t do small talk with girls and at the same time get stuck on thinking what to say by not being sexual also.

    I just need to accept what you said when ,after you DHV, women just “accidentally” bump into me and believe that it will happen and just focus on DHVing.

    Oh, I haven’t thought of merging sets and have hardly done it. Definitely on the list from now on.

    Also, light teasing. I think this is the calibration required in the initial phase. Once you know a girl likes light teasing, I should start teasing her more.

    Thanks a ton again.

    Regarding flirting, do you have anything to say as to what exactly(actions,behaviour) constitutes ‘flirting’ in the technical sense? Is it just teasing, role-playing, kinoing and making fun of her ? Am i missing something else?

  22. I found the discussion of men avoiding the approved “sexual zones” interesting. It’s true that a man formerly had to actively avoid women to end up a bachelor, whereas now you can just live a normal life and avoid women. The other thing that would explain a lot of men dropping out, especially past a certain age, is that the “zones” where you might find women don’t deliver high quality women. If you go to any bar, club, whatever, you will find women with purple hair, or a lot of tattoos, or carrying around children from another man. You will search in vain for a woman that you would seriously consider having children with.

    The other truism of life is that our time is finite. Most men reasonably conclude that, rather then spend our ever-dwindling time with a woman is, at best, unpleasant to be around is a waste of that time.

    Rollo, I really enjoy the blog. Keep up the good work.

  23. @Morpheus —

    Good thoughts!

    Put another way, and admittedly this is speculation about the impact, but it probably prevents some number of Eliot Rodger incidents.

    Certainly — it also seems to lower the rape rate, despite the hysteria to the contrary. It does work as a safety valve for extreme expressions of male sexual frustration, but at the same time it dulls the overall sexual adventurism appetite in lots of guys, which is the same appetite that drives men to cold approach — so it reduces “normal” participation along with extreme expression at the same time.

    I think this is part of it, but the other component is their is a lot of economic value to be had for women who participate in the “business” of selling their sexuality … One interesting thing is that as the cultural position on slut shaming is decreasing more and more, you are seeing more and more women enter sex work of one kind or another, even if just part-time.

    Yeah, I agree with you and HH on that. I think lots of guys would be very surprised to know just how many of their female coworkers are participating, if even in a limited way, in this “floating world”. I remember a story in the newspaper here in DC in the mid-2000s about a married woman who was an exec accountant by day and a hooker 2-3 times a month on weekends with very high end clients (several thousand bucks per encounter). She got into the trade through a coworker who was also doing the same thing. These were both married, advanced degree, highly compensated “career women”, and the husbands knew and consented. The article said that the woman made more money in a year of hooking very part time than she did at her day job. Now, NAWALT applies in this case, but it’s also true that more women are participating than anyone likes to admit, and most of it is very under-the-radar. When you add in cams and things like that the number bumps up. Motivations are many — it’s usually not strictly financial, but a combo of financial, thrill, validation, excitement, ego-boost, empowerment and so on.

    Nova, I think what has happened is that the “life script” women get sold has changed over time. And that life script doesn’t include marriage and kids until they think they’ve gotten some value out of their education in terms of time in the professional world.

    Yep, the script is different now. Basically the fucking-for-fun period, what Rollo has dubbed the “party years”, runs from 15 to ~28 or so, and then it becomes major lockdown mode. Men should note this and behave accordingly.

    =====

    On the main topic of sexual zoning, it really strikes me that it’s inevitable to have this in a feminist social order.

    If you want men to be viewed as equal, you have to force it. You can’t have it if you have an open sexual situation, where sexualization on a large scale is always present. We have that in the broader culture as a content, when you include the internet and porn and hookers and so on. But you can’t have it in an office or a school or what have you because then everything becomes sexualized, and the inequality between the sexes becomes clear. To equalize things in these settings, you need to neuter the men sexually so that women can become kind of like men without penises in a desexualized context. If you don’t do this, everything becomes sexualized and everyone is constantly tied up in hitting on each other, or in the case of most women fending off unwanted hits, and nothing is focused on equalist productivity. A feminist society has to have rules like this, because if you don’t have them then an equalist workplace isn’t possible.

    Of course, the system tolerates 20-30% “failure” rate in terms of its zoning. Which in effect means that the guys, like us, who are effectively zoneless can do more or less as we please, and the system tolerates that. It’s good to be us. But the system itself wouldn’t work if every guy could be like us.

    Hence one of the core problems of the manosphere. What we do works for us, and can work for any man who puts his mind to it properly. It cannot work systemically, however — the system in which what we do “works” is itself based on a context where most men are AFCs. If there weren’t zoning in place keeping these AFCs in their place, the whole order we live in, and which we benefit from financially, socially and so on in terms of prosperity and stability, would break down and we would all be the worse for it. So, really, it’s good for us, as long as the AFCs don’t get too uppity and screw up this unprecedented period of stability and prosperity, so that we can keep on winning.

  24. Novaseeker

    Great comment.

    Your 20% failure rate reminds me of the 10-80-10 corporate theft concept. Corporate theft penalties are in place for the 80% of the workforce where threats alone keep them at bay. 10% steal regardless of possible penalties and 10% never steal.

  25. @ EhIntellect

    LOL to this 10-80-10 Rule.

    I for myself have found out, that i also have developed something like this women hypergamy thing.

    I only fuck goodlooking women and i only see them.

    All the rest of to women are invisible to my eyes.

  26. Re; Hollen – Smashing it out of the park on this thread with this. It’s a bit subtle, slow down and digest it if you didn’t get it the first time around.

    “The possibility that they’re the ones who’re supposed to salvage this culture doesn’t even occur to most men, mostly because they don’t treasure it. Standing up to women makes sense when you value them enough that you want to change their ways, when you see them as worthy of intervention and risk. Except that most Western men don’t see their “fellow” women that way, either because they don’t care, or because they’re blue-pilled and actually believe that women are strong and independent on their own.”

    @Hollen – This happened to me. I used to feel responsible for our culture and the desire to save it. After it chewed me up and spit me out like an unwanted bit of grizzle (but separating me from my wife, kid and a ton of dough), and watching the Prog-Marxists overtake every institution of our society, and women running amok like fucking toddlers in a sweet shop, it doesn’t look worth the effort.

    But on an interpersonal level I’m starting to really get that women need strong men in their lives to be happy and function at all. I am careful what I share about my HB9 project here, but due to the raw honesty I’ve engendered with her, she basically lays out Red Pill truths nonstop. Regrets and ashamed of her abortion, regrets fucking all the bad boys – she’s 29 now. For her it’s even worse cuz she’s hot as hell, like if she told you she was 23 you wouldn’t blink. So hormonally she’s getting baby crazy, but still has the cock carousel wide open to her with high SMV guys throwing themselves at her, and “worshipping” her. She castigates me because I don’t worship her or pursue her hard – she finds this confounding. She also has fucked far too many guys and simply cannot stay with any one guy for long. She also complains about the quality of men, how they are all pussies etc.

    She’ll never figure it out, and while she may be ruined, I think that she would be much better off dominated and having submitted to a man. She is begging for it. But it’s also true that I’ve been a big part of getting her to see how her abandoning traditional values is her core problem. She’s angry in that she pursued her “wild times” and got an education and went out into the world – and was/is miserable. She tried to get all her happiness from wild sex and lording her sexual power around, and trust me, guys fall to her feet and are pathetic in what they do for her, so it’s tempting. Like if women were doing that for me, I’d be really tempted to use it.

    I cannot help noticing how she’s much happier when I’m gaming her and she’s submitted. It’s a passing thing, and I’m not sure I want to be or can be the guy who will tame her, but it’s really clear to me with her and other women how they are running amok and are so unhappy.

    For me it’s hard to see myself doing this for any one woman now though. Cuz you are right, at some basic level I don’t give a shit. Like I’ve become that guy who just wants to use them for my pleasure to some degree. She complains about how rough I was with her, and how crude I am sometimes. I realize I don’t have that sensitive, nice guy inside me anymore. Is it cuz i’m angry? Cynical? Awake? Smart? Wounded? Hard to know.

    But a big part me feels like this. Fuck women, they decided to blow up the family and marriage and fatherhood, so guess what? Without those institutions being protected and without being respected for being those things, I don’t want to play. I explained this to my friend’s 26yo gf who’s pressuring him to settle down after 8 months on Sunday. “Guess what, sweetheart, feminism has consequences. 80% of divorces initiated by women has consequences. Men losing the respect and standing as fathers has consequences. And men like my friend are awake and see the risks they face and are saying fuck that. You don’t like it, you keep interrupting and making faces and try to ignore what I’m saying as though you pretending it doesn’t exist will make it go away, but you need to wake the fuck up. Men have had it, you don’t get to be “strong and independent” and then also demand men “man up”, and you don’t even realize how ridiculous it is to behave that way. Deal with the consequences of feminism and realize that sexual liberation cuts both ways. You don’t have a right to expect anything of him just because you are fucking him. I mean, women can be prude or slutty or wild or chaste, and that’s all okay. Well guess what, ditto for men. We don’t need to be faithful, marry or settle down. We have choices too. So stop with the shaming and guilt and wake the fuck up.”

    The look on her face was priceless. And oh yeah, she’s Chinese but very Americanized. So yeah, I guess it’s true, I’m just out to get what I want. The romantic in me has been killed.

  27. @ scribblerg

    ” Deal with the consequences of feminism and realize that sexual liberation cuts both ways…”

    This !

  28. Scribbs

    Yeah for every strong and independent woman who claims she is happy with that life, there are countless others who discover having a kid and staying at home is really more satisfying.

    In other words, the feminist lie becomes quite apparent as soon as you interject a spider into the bathroom… they don’t appreciate the irony though – EEEEEEEEEEK!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8mWDUmcP7s

    PS – l;ove Vitaly… LOL

  29. The issues of class and intersexual dynamics were covered well in Murray’s 2012 “Coming Apart”.

    The economic classes have sequestered themselves and cross-class relationships are less possible because of social and economic expectation differences. 40 years ago doctors married their nurses, lawyers married their secretaries. Sexes understood themselves culturally and lower class women could marry up into the made-woman lifestyle.

    Not so now. Doctors marry doctors, lawyers marry lawyers. Cultural expectations (i.e. religious, community and workforce) of the upper classes are too foreign even now to the middle classes, let alone the lower class, a middle class HB7 will have a hard time marrying up. The risk of her flaking with the kids is too big a risk. She’s perceived (correctly so) as low class because of her trashy fem-centric expectations. DHV Guys are safer marrying like-class than lower class pretty DHV women as the HB5 sex is tolerable and the divorce raping risk is lowest with an upper class HB5. Middle class college HB7 will get action but the upper class expectation is a bridge too far for the upper class male.

    Locking down a guy who’s desired, game aware, Alpha-mindset regardless of his class will be harder as our intolerance of fem-centric behavior will control our relationships, our frame. Women don’t care or can tell in the moment between the confident broke smooth cad and the confident wealthy frat dude. Act upper class and they can’t tell the difference.

  30. So here is “correction” in action.
    My lovely blonde 11 year old daughter wants to be Harley Quinn for halloween. I have no doubt she could pull it off character wise.
    Either way, it didn’t matter,I simply said, “Nope, she looks like a slut, you’re not dressing up like that”.
    She’s pretty head strong but at the same time she is 100% my girl, so she thought for a moment and thankfully did not enquire about the meaning of “slut” and she simply said, OK, I’ll be a storm trooper.
    If she does ask about the meaning of slut, I will tell her in no uncertain terms. We have already floated the idea with her in capitalist terms, and she is a good little capitalist. I have said many times in the past, “If you give something away, it’s not worth anything”.

    This is the shallow end of the pool for me with her. She’s beautiful and I am not just saying that because I have Daddy goggles on, she is going to be slaying it if she wants to when she gets older. As she all but ignores her mother and only really defers to me on everything from math homework to fashion choices, it will fall on me to have the ongoing “correction” talk(s) with her.

    Thankfully we have a full RP house in action and so she understands that things work out better for her mother when she defers to my plans and designs. Daughter also responds very well to firm hand (of the mind). She is highly irritable if given long bouts of freedom without direction and thanks me when I tear her away from too much computer time or things like that. She knows when she needs correction and she thanks me for it eventually when it happens.

    Don’t ever try to tell me its not genetic.

  31. @EhIntellect —

    Yes, it’s a kind of informal eugenics at play.

    In the past, when power and money was mostly about owning stuff, mating and marriage, for the ownership class, was about setting up clear lines of inheritance to preserve that material wealth and the position of power and privilege that comes along with it.

    Today, power and privilege are largely accruing to people who are members of the cognitive elite. So, to preserve that power and privilege you marry and mate with other people who are cognitive elites, and have (and raise) cognitive elite kids who can also be powered and privileged in this context. Hence why inter-class mating is dead. To min/max your preservation of power and privilege down the line, you marry another cognitive elite and breed cognitive elite kids who also dominate their generation with their brains. Same game, different context, so different tactics.

    Yes, I’m a member of that group, too — no sense denying it.

  32. Agent P

    As she all but ignores her mother and only really defers to me on everything from math homework to fashion choices, it will fall on me to have the ongoing “correction” talk(s) with her.

    +1. And you do not care if her friends parents think you are controlling… Because you are living in your frame. I have 4 daughters… they NEED your push back on them and do not hesitate to shame them or call out their friends or cultural icons for unacceptable behavior. They will push you, but you hold what they require – your approval. More powerful than money and gifts.

    She is highly irritable if given long bouts of freedom without direction and thanks me when I tear her away from too much computer time or things like that. She knows when she needs correction and she thanks me for it eventually when it happens.

    Your daughter or your wife?

    trick question.

  33. @ehintellect
    I concur about the UMC, marriage stability thing. Given that I come from and live in that world I totally concur there is much more traditional social structure available to prop up marriages. even if the end game for UMC’s is simply to preserve wealth there is definitely a culture that actively values marriage and not just the momentary act but rather the enduring act of marriage.
    That’s not to say that I don’t encounter dysfunction in marriages in my milieu but overall I never hear young women being disparging about marriage. Yes a huge number of them step onto the corporate conveyor belt but at the same time they as women have a perception of their intrinsic value which is more traditional. So they, UMC chicks, that I encounter, would be very sensitive to being perceived of as sluts. There is an understanding that is very clear that they cannot piss in their own pool socially speaking. In short, they will not trade down for Chad the mechanic, unless there is no hope of being caught doing so at least for an ONS.

    So I agree with Murray, that stratification of class relationship structure will accelerate and not settle down. It’s self perpetuating being surrounded by people who are married, have kids, put a high premium on at least appearing to be functional family units. This helps because 90% of the kids from that scene know that functional family units are normal, at least for them, and while they can have problems, they work quite well for all involved.

    I will add as I have before that this environment also seems to be more innately RP than many. There is no lack of liberal values, but nobody in their right mind would try to say for example that “gender is a construct” or “women can do anything men can do”. There is still a good spread of AFC’s and Alpha’s etc, but even AFC’s tend to “man up” with enough exposure to other guys acting “correctly”. By man up, i mean straighten their spine and not take shit from girls.

  34. @Sentient
    Only one of them gets spanked anymore.
    She does appreciate it when I administer discipline.

    All hail frame, my frame!

    God, thank the good lord for RP. I remember what I was like five or six years ago. I never could have reconciled in my head how spanking my wife could be great for my marriage. What a pathetic fuck I was, getting tossed about in life without understanding how to get things in order. I had an idea, I had boundless energy but I had no idea how the meta of my life needed to be organized to keep things working properly. I didn’t even lift! I will say that even when things were difficult in my marriage however that our social circles were extremely supportive of us through thick and thin.

  35. Lololol – a video for Sentient in particular – an RSD video podcast with Tyler and Julien talking about Trump and Brexit and aliens. Seriously.

    I don’t even know if it’s any good, I’m just watching now but I HAD to post it:

  36. choc doc

    Man! You crack me up.

    I posted earlier a bit about fatties. Word brother. I don’t see them, they don’t exist and should be shunned from polite society til they trim up.

    Tolerable pretty women are the only ones worthwhile.

    All other require a frank rhetorical backhand.

    Oh, speaking of backhands…

    Agent P.

    I get that mentally shaping children endures. At any rate, an on-the-spot open hand swat to the ass perseveres in the young mind, driving the lesson home, to a preteen bratty girl.

    Lest we let her pre-installed shit-test arsenal gain value.

  37. Re: Murray and assortative mating. Be careful to not impute correlation based on your biases @AgentP and others. Murray isn’t looking strictly at UMC – he’s looking at another demographic, that being the “Super Zips”, places like Greenwich CT or Cambridge MA or the Upper East Side, or DC burbs or Silicon Valley. He’s focusing on where the new elite live, giving it the shorthand ‘Belmont”.

    So he’s capturing well above UMC but also UMC which is why it’s so interesting. One difference between Super Zip and UMC is that Super Zip is 78% self identified as Progressive and Liberal and only 11% as Conservative. UMC has different concentrations.

    When you look at how Belmontians faired over time wrt marriage and divorce, you see the same trend developing in the ’70s with higher divorce and out of wedlock births etc. but then it corrects by the ’90s to almost pre ’60s levels.

    It’s easy to assume this is just cultural superiority based IQ or ethnicity but in fact, I think it has more to do with economics than people think. In Super Zips, managing and passing on intergenerational wealth is the key to their success. Divorce – and marrying badly in the first place – has devastating consequences on intergenerational wealth. As the working class collapsed, as the middle class is now, such considerations are irrelevant. 7 out of 10 Americans have $1,000 or less in savings. Such people are not invested in “tomorrow” the way Super Zip Americans are.

    I also believe that economic prospects for the Super Zip types improved dramatically, as executives of corporations figured out how to make much more of the pie that used to go to “owners”. As well, the vast growth of govt and it’s suppliers (consultants/contractors/vendors etc) has enriched these people more than most. Now a person who gets an MHA can get a 200k job in management at some hospital, but 50 years ago that job didn’t even exist. Ditto at universities and many govt institutions.

    So the “payoff” is more widely available if you live in a Super Zip or are UMC, so your future calculations have more risk for all these antics. You likely see much greater deployment of pre-nup agreements and trusts to remove all property from divorce risk in this group so the “cash and prizes” may be harder to access as well.

    My point? Material conditions and economic prospects have a lot do with this behavior, and on the low end? In “Fishtown”, the working class? They no longer even own homes for the most part. In many real ways, a working class person in this country 60 years ago had much more invested AND they had a future hope that they could move up the ladder. That’s all gone now.

    This was what was unique about the U.S., folks. The idea that an average working stiff could “make it” and have some wealth and financial security. The idea what we weren’t dependent on some elite to give us the crumbs. We used to have incredible upwards income mobility in the U.S., like the odds that a person who started out working class would be working class still by age 45 were 20% or something like that. Today? Many of those men aren’t even working. We’ve had 10 million men drop out of the workforce – poof.

    One might be tempted to see my focus on material conditions as supportive of a Marxist analysis, but don’t be. No free marketer ever said that material conditions don’t matter, we just reject the mechanics of Hegel’s dialectic and Marx’s dialectical materialism and how that engine is predictable in how it affects different classes.

  38. @Scribblerg: be careful about not getting One-itis for your HB9. It can happen even if you know about it. Having sex with her facilitates it, but isn’t necessary either.

  39. A map of the 650 or so so called super zips

    https://d.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/slideshow_large/slideshow/2013/12/3022486-slide-s-zip-04.jpg

    It is interesting that not just wealth is considered for this but wealth (or income probably more accurately) and a college degree. I suspect this leaves out some more rural enclaves developed on natural resource wealth.

    One interesting area to explore is the liberal / conservative line and how mindsets like those in Berkeley differ from those in Dallas… the emphasis on health and such not quote penetrating to the same degree, etc. The differences between the NE and CA coast and mid america, the south etc.

    One of the real differences is that of multi generational wealth vs new money, still.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2013/11/09/washington-a-world-apart/

    Interactive map…

  40. @IAS – Good reminder. But I think the revelation in her case is that I’m not getting OneItis, like I’m the only man in her rotation who isn’t…She can’t figure me out and can’t make sense of her attraction to me, as fickle as it is. She rents little space in my head so I’m good.

    What’s been amazing is watching her play to script. I laid out her entire motif about a year ago and she was so angry at the time, but now comes back and tells me I was right about everything. Like I helped her boil down her angst and confusion.

    Also know that I actually like her as a person, she’s quite smart and well read. She also loves aspects of me and respects me. We developed this email correspondence and she actually loves to read a long email from me, something very few people are interested in. It’s a deep relationship in a way, I’ve known her for 2.5 years.

    But I know there is no happy ending for us. I only fit in as a dalliance, I’m not shaped as provider/beta boy and even though she loathes such guys, she also knows that’s what she will end up with. She openly talks about having a kid with one guy, and then as long as she has the money, she’d be happy to raise him alone, after all “many other women do it”. The next moment she’s lamenting how she’s been a whore and how she should have married and settled down.

    We had serious drama last December and I nexted her. She came crawling back and since then she’s been nothing but pleasurable. I take her and leave her as she is. It’s really weird to do that.

    She is the hottest women I’ve ever had sex with. Insane. At 54. You guys out there who aren’t as old as me or as fat or as worn down by a brutal life, you have no excuse. Work the hotties, know your value, don’t beg, don’t lower yourself and over time you will stand out. They will notice you, and they will be interested. Just sayin’…

  41. Prior to the sixties and up through the early eighties main stream social custom supported men seeking brides, marrying, making commitments and supporting their wives and families. Current main stream culture discourages, demoralizes and ridicules men who want the same. But change is occurring and not only from within. The discouragement and demoralization are unintended yet inevitable negative consequences of this site, the red pill and the manosphere. Presently, the actual costs and risks to a man associated with making a commitment to a woman now far outweigh any imaginary benefits. Adding insult to injury, men are accused of being misogynist if they express any frustration with the new social norm centered on misandry. Millions of men are fed up with cuckoldry, divorce rape, gold diggers, LJBF prick teasers, glorification of homosexuality exploited to shame heterosexuality, unbridled hypergamy, the incessant marginalization and vilification of masculine virtues, etc. If history repeats itself (and there is nothing indicating it will not, we’ve seen such perverse culture before) nature is balancing this problem out as fewer who embrace the new perverse culture will not be reproducing compared to those who do not embrace the new perverse culture. This is already occurring and can be readily confirmed by observing the differences between what the established culture has morphed into, immigrant culture and their respective birth rates.

  42. Guys, bottom line is this:

    if you can score consistently with the average young american woman (1-6 hrs face time, no relationship promises), you are above average. you are top 20%.

    *drumroll*

    20-29, 160-165 pounds, 5’3, normal face. Yeah lol…paradise, right?

    tell him what he’s won Johnny…..

    A lot of dudes in the manosphere don’t even know how to evaluate their SMV in relation to the opposite sex.

    A lot of them are above average but are chasing after chicks where the competition is RIDICULOUS.

    Sorry, IRL, going after a thin 7 is going to be a tough one. Going after an 8? Also tough.
    Cold Approach? LOL, tough. Anyway…..

    The game requires you to both a) act as if you are the highest value ever and b) know exactly what value everyone else places on you in the moment, and c) not let b) affect a).

    If you can’t grok b), you’re going to use the wrong tactics in a). For example JUMBOTRON/IGNORE bullshit is NOT going to work when she views you as low or even equal.

  43. There isn’t any way out of this one, folks, on a systemic level. With women inundating the workforce, there were going to inevitably be rules put in place to prevent the sea of workplace betas from “harassing” them (i.e., showing unwanted interest). That was inevitable — otherwise how are you going to ensure sanity in a dual-sex workplace. Sure, the minority of us with Game aren’t subject to the same regime, de facto (we are de jure, and that can bite if you’re careless), but at the same time we can’t be stupid enough to understand that it really *is* necessary to keep the betas in their place in the workplace so that both the betas and the women can be productive.

    I’ll have to disagree. When I’m pondering methods which provide women with all the economic opportunities they have today while at the same time avoid the creation of ambiguous sexual zones, I can think of two other options:

    1. Practice sexual apartheid i.e. separate male and female workers into different departments, offices etc.

    2. Do the same in the education system, keep sex-segregated schools.

    3. Ban all sexual advances in the workplace i.e. don’t legally allow for the possibility of “wanted” sexual advances.

    All this could work. However, it’d block women from using the workplace and the campus as an alpha fuck market. Which is obviously why it isn’t implemented.

  44. 1. Practice sexual apartheid i.e. separate male and female workers into different departments, offices etc.

    2. Do the same in the education system, keep sex-segregated schools.

    3. Ban all sexual advances in the workplace i.e. don’t legally allow for the possibility of “wanted” sexual advances.

    Well on 1 and 2, in the US at least, we have a really shitty legal precedent that seeped into the popular memeplex about “separate is not equal”, and it came from something not having to do with bio sex at all, so kind of fucked there — train not even allowed to leave the station on that here. Heck we can’t keep boys who think they are girls out of the HS girls locker room.

    On 3, this is de jure what we have now in many workplaces (many do ban any such activity, at least in policies on paper). Of course it is not enforced in a wooden way, because enforcement has to do with human social dynamics, which gets us back into being guys like we are, who are immune to that, versus being the contained/restricted/culled AFCs.

  45. Hence one of the core problems of the manosphere. What we do works for us, and can work for any man who puts his mind to it properly. It cannot work systemically, however — the system in which what we do “works” is itself based on a context where most men are AFCs. If there weren’t zoning in place keeping these AFCs in their place, the whole order we live in, and which we benefit from financially, socially and so on in terms of prosperity and stability, would break down and we would all be the worse for it. So, really, it’s good for us, as long as the AFCs don’t get too uppity and screw up this unprecedented period of stability and prosperity, so that we can keep on winning.

    So prolonged stability and prosperity didn’t exist before this ambiguous sexual zoning was implemented?

  46. Let’s also keep something in mind. Sexual zoning is implemented for the sole purpose of preserving a social order that is monumentally wasteful and inefficient, in economic terms. Most of the female workplaces it’s supposed to make more comfortable are make-work office jobs for affirmative action beneficiaries, and the female college students it’s supposed to benefit are indebting themselves and sacrificing their fertility and femininity in order to earn worthless degrees. Sexual zoning doesn’t underpin prosperity, it erodes it.

  47. So prolonged stability and prosperity didn’t exist before this ambiguous sexual zoning was implemented?

    http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Charlie-Murphy-Laughing-Chappelles-Show-Prince.gif

    Whether now or in the days of “yore,” true attraction followed the same rules. A more patriarchal society isn’t the answer if true desire within the confines of a civilized society is what you seek.

    More broadly, however, yes….”prolonged stability and prosperity,” i.e. “civilization” didn’t exist before this intra-societal competition and hierarchy was implemented. Civilization is the majority of the populous serving a dominant minority and playing that minority’s rules. Those rules determine who gets what — mates doubly so. That’s what the social conditioning is for.

    That’s why there is no “objective” good look. There are looks that are tied to concepts, and those concepts are tied to the rules.

  48. So prolonged stability and prosperity didn’t exist before this ambiguous sexual zoning was implemented?

    You don’t get to go backwards. Sure, in history we had this under a more patriarchal system. We could try going back to that, but what army do you have that will do that, because it will take one. That and lots of police. Unless there is massive scarcity, which creates conditions for it to emerge organically. Otherwise, we are in an equalist model, and under an equalist model, you need to keep the betas productive yet sexually neutered so that they and the women are both productive in a mixed workplace — and you do that by sexual harassment rules that enforce sexual zoning, coupled with ubiquitous high quality porn to take the edge off the beta sexual frustration. Oh … and you try like hell to get rid of all the guns that the white betas seem to be amassing.

  49. @scribblerg

    Thanks for your post on super zips, very insightful. I read the articles when they first came out and still find the concept fascinating.

    Wondering if that may account for some of the disconnect between the OMGs and YSGs.

    FWIW, I live in a super zip, surrounded by or in close proximity to other super zips and find my life experiences more aligned to comments made by Blax, Sentient & SJF, for reasons other than our mutual age demographic… I suppose an abundance mindset is easier cultivate/maintain when you’re living in the ‘Hierarchy of Needs’ top tier?

  50. Sexual zoning doesn’t underpin prosperity, it erodes it.

    Depends on who you are. For the middle, yep. For the upper, nope. Upper are having a field day under this system, in terms of prosperity. A field day. The core is getting a key to the club level of life.

  51. That sexual apartheid is already a natural progression in the workplace:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/relationships/11904203/Well-done-feminism.-Now-man-are-afraid-to-help-women-at-work.html

    Just as I quoted Hollenhund, the MGTOW plan of avoidance is simply a matter of course now. Hell, HR departments don’t exist to actually address corporate culture, company morale or employees handbooks, they exist as an insurance against sexual harassment and discrimination litigations. This is why most HR depts. are run and directed overwhelmingly by women. In fact, I can’t even think of an HR dept. of any company I’ve ever worked for in the last 26 years that wasn’t entirely staffed by women.

  52. @Chump No More – Ya, I brought this up a thread or two back, about the social stratification of divorce and fatherless families and how the UMC largely avoids doing so.

    This is why I keep harping on the politics. People love to say “politics is downstream from culture”, yawn, this is when I know I’m speaking with a naif. Human society is a non-linear, chaotic dynamical system that doesn’t fit with such simple ideas. Politics – when they control as much of the economy and social order as our govt does – has immense leading and feedback power. In fact, the politics changing could be the strongest reason why we have run amok, as it let hypergamy run wild and free. It permitted the FI to take hold.

    And of course then I’m told that the politics emerged from an FI impulse, but my careful study of history tells me this isn’t so. The FI latched on to the only ideology that would give a free ride – radical egalitarianism and collectivism. But those ideas didn’t emerge from the FI, they emerged from a different strain of thought.

    I know this a somewhat esoteric point but I believe that many here do not understand the central role of politics and economics in what’s going on in our society. Too many on the right are obsessed with “culture” to the exclusion of many other drivers and also don’t understand how culture is driven by economics and politics.

  53. Re: Avoidance – Yup, it’s better to stay clear of women at work. I used to fuck women at regularly the time back in the day, but these days? Be careful. But it’s also true some guys made a mess of it back then. My rules have always been:

    1. Don’t fuck the cray-cray girls. Work or not, they will cause drama and social problems, and maybe legal ones too. No matter how hard your dick gets, run from cray-cray pussy.

    2. Keep it a complete secret. Make sure nobody knows. Period. Don’t hang out in the office together or go to lunch together or arrive together. All pretty easy to do.

    3. End it gently and provide some comfort along the way. I think this is what PUAs do too, to avoid regret after the fact. Like they have to feel good about what happened and they can’t feel used or lied to etc. And then avoid them to the degree possible.

    Not sure if this will work today as some women seem so ready to just pile on men and shame them, so who knows.. But it’s too bad, if you naturally DHV at work, it’s a great place to gather plates…

  54. @scribbleberg

    Super Zip is 78% self identified as Progressive and Liberal and only 11% as Conservative.

    True enough.

    Superzip liberal or superzip conservative labeling is cosmetic generally. The behaviors of those in the superzips are relatively conservative. They all value long work hours, the success sequence (education, work, marry, kids – in order, no skipping steps), some nominal religious involvement, and community involvement too. Low divorce rates, lower elective abortion rates.

    Similar example would be U.S. Senators. Republican, Democrat, conservative, Liberal all would rather hang out with each other because of shared class values rather than anyone who aligns with their political title.

    I notice it’s not just about gross financial value either. Martha Stewart is an lefty elite but not connected enough to get a pass from the SEC. Trump is a wealthy republicanish elite but not connected enough to get a pass from liberals.

    I’m not a cynical guy but I understand my limits. We are strangers in a strange land.

  55. “The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.”

    It is possible for men to not WANT to put the effort into learning Game. It’s hard. Don’t kid yourself. Especially so for men who have grown up through their FORMATIVE YEARS with porn and videogames (i.e. my generation). Whose brains have been wired to virtual rewards instead of social and sexual ones.

    There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to put the time and effort and stress into learning Game as long as you accept that that’s your choice. That’s where I’m at. The whole “Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better” mantra can suck my motherfucking dick.

    I’ll improve skills that I want to improve. And the ones I don’t want to improve, I won’t. Anyone that thinks I should be obligated to do anything other than what I want can go shove a dick up their ass.

    Men simply need to take ownership for their choices. I can’t emphasize this enough.

    Take ownership for your choices whether they’re “good” or “bad.”

    I don’t want to invest the time or energy or effort into fucking women, and that’s the bed I’m making, so that’s what I’ll lie in. It’s not like that option is unavailable to any man.

    Nobody gives a fuck. The secret to life is unapologetically embracing whatever decision you make, and taking full ownership for it. Whether you’re happy or you feel like ripping someone’s head off, take full ownership for it. You’re doing it to yourself and you’re choosing to stay in that state.

    Practice ownership of everything. If you’re not improving, then tell people telling you to improve to go eat a dick and take ownership of your decision to not improve. It’s always your call. Taking ownership of everything you choose is the important part. It’s your life, your choice. Own it, whatever it is.

  56. To tie a couple of postings above together:

    Novaseeker: “We have to neuter workplaces to keep the Betas from going after the girls”

    Hollenhund: “Sexual zoning is implemented for the sole purpose of preserving a social order that is monumentally wasteful and inefficient, in economic terms. Most of the female workplaces it’s supposed to make more comfortable are make-work office jobs for affirmative action beneficiaries, and the female college students it’s supposed to benefit are indebting themselves and sacrificing their fertility and femininity in order to earn worthless degrees. Sexual zoning doesn’t underpin prosperity, it erodes it.”

    Novaseeker: “It works for the top levels”.

    Example:
    The Swedish woman with one child who may marry the child’s father someday takes her child with her on the way to work, dropping the child off at the day care. She then travels on to her very important job at a different day care, earning money by caring for the children of other women. The amount of money she earns is just about the same as the amount of money she spends on child care in many cases. If she just stayed home in the neighborhood with her child and other women, child care would get done with zero monetary overhead. Of course, she also would not get to come in contact with potentially Alpha men in the course of her day…

    Lather, rinse, repeat, expand: this desribes more than a few paralegals, administrative assisstants, teachers, bookeepers, etc. in the world today. Pretty much all of Human Resources now is pushing paper around to demonstrate compliance with Federal regs.

    Feminism is overhead on civilization. The prosperity Hollenhund refers to is national, while Nova is referring to more personal or perhaps family prosperity.

    In the longer run, looting Fishtown to prop up Niceville tends to have negative results. Doing so just to enable women to have a shot at riding an Alpha doesn’t make the results any better.

    Sexual zoning is overhead, because women in the workplace even now are overhead in probably 80% to 90% of cases.

    Sir Glubb’s monograph of the 1970’s points to feminism as a luxury that results from excess resources, one could go on to the r / K issue at this point, I suppose.

    tl;dr
    Sexual zoning is here to stay as long as women are allowed to chase Alpha pony rides in the workplace.

  57. Rollo
    HR departments don’t exist to actually address corporate culture, company morale or employees handbooks, they exist as an insurance against sexual harassment and discrimination litigations. This is why most HR depts. are run and directed overwhelmingly by women. In fact, I can’t even think of an HR dept. of any company I’ve ever worked for in the last 26 years that wasn’t entirely staffed by women.

    Sensei, I believe you have cause and effect reversed. Due to women’s known 4:1 ingroup preference, any time you have 2 women in a department over time it will become 90% female. HR wasn’t 90% female back in the 70’s, it got that way due to the Old Girl network hiring. Once HR was majority female, maybe as low as 60%, then naturally the “mission” of HR became what the women wanted it to be — which is, of course, policing tone and keeping Betas in their place while winking at Alphas. Because that’s what women do for each other.

    HR has converged to women’s sexual strategy because it has become majority women.
    HR has become majority women because women hire other women, absent any outside influence.

    The same thing is happening in vet schools. It hopefully will take longer to happen in med schools.

    It’s not happening in any numbers-based science absent external force, like applying Title IX to Engineering or something incredibly stupid like that.

  58. “End it gently and provide some comfort along the way”

    you get them to end it, which is easy once you know red pill

  59. HH / Nova

    2. Do the same in the education system, keep sex-segregated schools.

    This is emerging again in private schools. It is widely implemented now in Math/science curriculum.

  60. @EhIntellect – But in fact, Progressives and Conservatives are becoming much more separated and differentiated culturally and socially from each other. While what you say is true about marriage, that is by no means what it means to be conservative or progressive. Getting divorces isn’t a “Progressive” value…

    Conservatives and Progressives of the same income differ in the following ways:

    They watch different news.
    Consume different entertainment.
    Eat different food.
    Go to different churches.
    Send their kids to different schools.
    They socialize within their ideological group far more exclusively than happened 50 years ago.
    They drive different cars.
    Vacation different places.
    Watch different TV shows.
    Read different newspapers.
    And much more…

    Should I go on? I

  61. @Anonymous Reader – Ding, ding. Female ingroup preferences explain a lot of what we see in hiring and buying preferences today. Ran into a female sales rep recently (to whom i’m a thought leader) and was discussing her cold calling. She worked for a female oriented media property and had an all female team. She told he how she overtly worked the ‘girl solidarity’ angle all the time, telling prospects to “be my girl and get this done” – imagine if i ever spoke to a woman in business thusly? I’d be hung from the rafters.

    I remember when the big story on how huge female ingroup preferences are, based on a big study that was done. The SJW left was struggling with how to bury it and frame it, cuz it also showed that men have very little male ingroup preference when buying. NPR did a segment on it, one its supposedly “open minded” segments, and it was dismissed as a female reaction to oppression.

    So even when women discriminate in hiring and buying, and it’s proved they do so, it’s still the fault of men. It’s really unbelievable if you look at it too closely…

    Consider that the reason women so readily believe in the Patriarchy and the male evil scheme to deprive them of a fair shake is because a woman would never do so…”Equal” indeed.

  62. @ Softek

    Testify it louder brother.

    My 23 y.o. nephew has got a macho beard MMA /rugby mindset. His “look”. He is hard charging, hard-drinking, doesn’t have that much of a future plan, dropped out of school. Delivers furniture. Likes what he likes, to hell with other’s opinions.

    My sister want him to hang out with me as if I’ll rub off some beta bucks success technique onto him.

    I refuse to even go there. When we hang out I usually just get ripped with him. He’s pissed, wants to joust a windmill or two. Why should I get in his way?

    “I want to do it my way” is what he told me months ago. I don’t blame him. His success and happiness is tied to his relentless conviction in himself, even if he doesn’t know where he’s going yet. To his credit he knows he’ll never be his best subordinating to a pre-chewed diet of college diploma factories, HR departments, and effete opinions.

    Nice post.

  63. @klem

    Just watched that episode you recommended in the other post. Sad indeed. Something I talk about with my wings is noticing all the girls at the bar, snapchatting the illusion of having a good time.
    Like one second they have this expressionless face sipping their drink. Checking their phone here and there. Then it’s ok time to let my followers see how fun were having put on your fake happy mask for a couple seconds for this video real quick. Then leave.

    Also cringed at the beta husband in the second half of the episode. Probably would be me had i not taken the red pill haha

  64. @ scribbleberg

    Not divorces per se but knocking the pillar of heterosexual nuclear marriage out from the load-bearing wall of our culture is a progressive goal. But not for their own marriages or thier kid’s.

    I’m in flyover country and admit to a anti-acela corridor bias. I tend to assume Superzips there are homogeneous.

  65. @FIWL

    Now i need to keep few stories(practiced a few times) that are triggers of attraction according to MM that I can repeat at the right time.

    This will help:
    http://www.venusianarts.com/how-to-write-dhv-stories/

    Just that since I know, small talk doesn’t help me in gaming girls and make me look asexual, I don’t do small talk with girls and at the same time get stuck on thinking what to say by not being sexual also.

    Not sure what you are saying here exactly. I’ll assume you mean that you get in your head and don’t know what to say so you get nervous and lose your sexual vibe.

    You’ll notice your cold approach small talk works especially well on guys. This is because you aren’t trying to bang them lol. You don’t care really what they think. But girls you are invested in what they think. Will they like me? Am I going too fast? Will they complain to someone else? OH GOD WHAT DO I DO! Lol, you see the difference. If you can be as carefree with chicks as you are with dudes, you’ll notice a big difference in how the girls react.

    The solution is to do more work on this. The more you open girls at parties, the more used to it you will be and the less concerned you will be. Additionally, work on your stack. Have a set list of DHVs you can run through. You can always deviate from this, but having a list of DHVs you’ve memorized and can whip out at anytime will make you much more confident.

    Oh, I haven’t thought of merging sets and have hardly done it. Definitely on the list from now on.

    yesyes this is huge. As you do so, make sure to scan the room. As you get to leading larger and larger sets, and especially ones with girls giggling at you, you will notice all the other girls in the room watching you. Boom. That’s an easy approach for all those girls staring at you. Not only will these staring girls really want to talk to you, but you will make the girls in the group jealous when you ditch them to chat up a new girl. This is how you start running jealousy plotlines…but just focus on merging sets for now lol.

    Also, light teasing. I think this is the calibration required in the initial phase. Once you know a girl likes light teasing, I should start teasing her more.

    you should also watch PIMP by Julien. Lots of other stuff for you in there.

    Key thing is you calibrate after you open. You don’t know this girl. She may look cute…but she might be riding a different cock every night lol. She might look like a party girl…but maybe she is just putting on an act to fit in with her friends or society. So you just open on whatever (obviously don’t go in and grab her by the pussy lol…although actually, could you imagine opening on “hey, would you let donald trump grab you by the pussy?” lol, I might try that actually lol) If the girl ever reacts poorly (she tenses up, backs up, laughs nervously, etc), then go through Julien’s three steps:

    1) Take a step back
    2) Statement of empathy (“I’m just kidding” or “yeah that was a little much right lol”)
    3) Quickly change the subject and act like nothing happened

    You may have to repeat this several times : “Yeah, I was just kidding. Anyway, where are you from? No no, I was just joking. I was just messing with you. You look like someone from Miami.” that sort of thing. Main thing is don’t freak out. Always have the vibe of “nah, its cool. its cool.” What you feel, she feels. So if you don’t really react to her reacting poorly, eventually she will vibe off your calm denouement and relax herself. Then she won’t even remember that you made that misstep.

    Another key — pressure on, pressure off. You want to have a nice rhythm to the interaction. Stepping close to her, staring her in the eyes, being physical, bringing up sexual topics all put pressure on the girl. Stepping back, looking away, not touching her, talking about neutral subjects all take pressure off. Make sure you alternate with this. Imagine holding your breath…eventually you have to breathe in or you’ll suffocate right? Well too much pressure on a girl is the same way…you’ll freak her out. So make sure you breathe in, breathe out, pressure on, pressure off.

    Regarding flirting, do you have anything to say as to what exactly(actions,behaviour) constitutes ‘flirting’ in the technical sense? Is it just teasing, role-playing, kinoing and making fun of her ? Am i missing something else?

    Really, just about ANYTHING can be flirting. You can make reading off a laundry list incredibly sexy if you do it right…and you could also read a pornographic novel aloud and dry up vajajays like water in death valley if you do it wrong lol.

    The key to flirting is to have a man-to-woman vibe. You do this in three ways:

    a) Laser eye contact
    b) breaking rapport
    c) physicality

    For your party environment, I wouldn’t be physical at all. Laser eye contact is probably the MAIN thing you want to focus on. If you want a good example of what laser eyes look like, watch james franco. Here’s a good example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhpGExo2hbs

    Thats not threatening at all. Its just two people chatting. But it creates a loooooot of sexual tension for a girl, especially when you hold it for a while. You can easily do shit like that in your party environment.

    Breaking rapport is when your voice turns down at the end. Sports announcers tend to use this. Your voice is deep and commanding. Contrast that with seeking rapport which is like valley girl talk, where your voiccceee goes uppppp at the enddddd. It makes your sound like a girly boy lol…though watch for seeking rapport tonality in girls…it means she’s attracted. Some girls already kind of talk like that…but you’ll notice it gets more exaggerated as she gets attracted to you. Anyway, you want breaking rapport, a deep commanding voice that goes down at the end. And speak slowly…it creates tension and builds anticipation on what you are going to say next. Those little pauses where you don’t say anything will give your laser eye contact more emphasis. When you do it right you’ll notice she’ll kinda go slack and her eyes will look back and forth between your eyes…you see julia roberts do that a bit in the clip…and also notice by contrast how rock steady james franco’s eyes are.

    Subtle stuff, but its those little body language cues that women pick up on. What you say isn’t all that important, is HOW you say it that matters.

  66. Seems to me there are two foundational problems at work between the sexes:

    1. Last night’s consensual sex becomes this morning’s regret – so “rape”;

    2. Yesterday’s hunk of a husband becomes today’s boring Mr. Invisible – so blow up the family for the exciting, imaginary, new alpha potential provider / husband.

    Seems to me we could fix both of these issues with a few society-wide rules of behavior;

    A. No alone-time between the sexes unless chaperoned by an adult male.
    (Rule doesn’t apply to those who are husband and wife.)

    B. Parents select a mate whom they believe is a good fit with their child’s personality.

    C. No divorce. So no value in fantasizing about blowing up the family and escaping with the new alpha.

    D. Optional: Death to those caught in adultry.

    If only these rules could be tested somewhere to see if they lead to a more stable society.

    Oh, wait …

  67. scribblerg
    Consider that the reason women so readily believe in the Patriarchy and the male evil scheme to deprive them of a fair shake is because women almost always project…”Equal” indeed.”

    FIFY.

  68. Not divorces per se but knocking the pillar of heterosexual nuclear marriage out from the load-bearing wall of our culture is a progressive goal. But not for their own marriages or thier kid’s.

    Yes, it’s mostly virtue signaling. “I think correctly, like you do”. Despite living lives like the 1950s, they “think” people should be “free to choose what they want”, yet don’t comment that everyone in their neighborhood makes the same choices they did. It’s all about signalling virtue, righteousness and being “enlightened” in our social group — it doesn’t actually impact choices they make in their personal lives or with their kids at all.

  69. @Scray

    “A lot of dudes in the manosphere don’t even know how to evaluate their SMV in relation to the opposite sex.

    The game requires you to both a) act as if you are the highest value ever and b) know exactly what value everyone else places on you in the moment, and c) not let b) affect a).”

    Scray, could you explain this a bit more?

  70. @newbie

    Irrational self confidence. What you feel, she feels. If you don’t believe you are the best she can get, why the fuck is she gonna care about you lol? How you think of yourself comes through in your subcomms, and girls pick up on that.

    Now, just because you think you are high value doesn’t mean that society shares the same opinion. If you are short like scray, or a chubby average looking dude like yareally, you shouldn’t be able to pull hotties. People EXPECT you not to be able to do that. So you have to ignore that and just KNOW that you are the best there is, and not let those external influences change your opinion of yourself as a high value motherfucker.

    So if you are fat, people are gonna call you out on that. If you don’t fit in the environment — say you are well dressed while everyone is casual at best — people are gonna call you out on that. But you have to just keep on keeping on and not let that affect you.

  71. @ Sentient and all puas

    That Mystery clip is interesting. Mystery has changed little to nothing of his original method including his 7 hours to sex view. And he still sees DHV stories as one of the major attraction building tools. Jesus, he’s stuck back in 2002. After watching that clip I see why no one teaches it anymore. Even though it is a good deconstruction of what mating looks like these days, its needlessly complicated and imo unwieldy. I have seen better systems offered by newer guys. Alex Social and Valentino Kohen (both former RSD instructors) both offer updated night club systems that allow you to deal with groups but with a far easier methodology. And RSD Madison and Luke look like they have some powerful game systems to offer. The game has evolved. At this point, its best to just view MM as theoretical foundations and move on to the newer stuff. Anyone under 25 trying to learn game through this is going nowhere.

    RSD instructor Todd said in a recent video that he aims at taking what was best of the old model of pu and combining it with what is best in the new approach. He said that is where his game is headed. I look forward to that because as much as I admire what Mystery accomplished, I could never get laid using his system. At least not in the way he structures it. Its too linear for me and as I see it, attraction, comfort and seduction happen simultaneously with one being stressed more than the others but with all three being present.

    For all newbies and intermediates, forget MM other than as a source of game theory. Better to focus on the newer systems coming out. So much good stuff out there to chose from. Alex, Valentino, Madison, Luke, Julien, all offer updated state of the art methods and they give infields so all you have to do is copy them. It really shouldn’t be hard to get laid today with pu.

  72. Meanwhile, on some of the smaller college campuses, first year students, aka Freshmen, are being brainwashed about Toxic Masculinity.

    http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29527/

    This is part of the reality of being an 18 year old man in some parts of the US. Older men that one is required to respect teaching about “toxic masculinity”, that the Sandy Hook killings were a result of “toxic masculinity”.

  73. @newbie

    Scray, could you explain this a bit more?

    Sure.

    When I roll into a room, I need to know — BEFORE ANYONE SAYS OR DOES ANYTHING IN RELATION TO ME — how the people in that room likely view me.

    What do I look like? What do people tend to associate with that look?

    What do the people here look like? What do they likely value? What are the niches? Where do they think I fit in (or not)?

    Based on all of that and my outward appearance — what do they think my value is?

    Now, how do I go about letting everyone know I’m high value.

    It’s different tactics depending on the room. And then, in every moment, I need to get a good sense of where I’m at and what I need to do to get to where I need to be.

    For ex, the general optimal play for when a potential AMOG rolls up to bust up your set is to IGNORE IT COMPLETELY and IMMEDIATELY ENGAGE the closest HB besides the target. But how do I do that in a way that is 100% guaranteed to succeed and pull off the image of her being attracted? What does it take for a girl to just think another girl is attracted in this environment?

    Is it just small talk and a laugh, is it kino, etc. etc.?

    I need to KNOW that shit in order to CALIBRATE and EXECUTE high value behavior. If I engage another HB but the HB’s response isn’t what the original target HB would consider “attraction,” then I’m not getting anywhere.

    Sometimes you roll into a situ and the reality is like…everyone here thinks I’m a fucking leper lol.

    And you need to have a strong mindset, otherwise you won’t be able to get to work.

  74. @gb_hill

    And he still sees DHV stories as one of the major attraction building tools. Jesus, he’s stuck back in 2002

    Nah it’s still correct lol.

    For all newbies and intermediates, forget MM other than as a source of game theory. Better to focus on the newer systems coming out.

    Yes but not for the reason you think.

    MM is the highest level advanced stuff.

    Most dudes who come to TRP, TRM, the manosphere, game, etc. are starting from such a social deficiency that MM is too advanced.

    MM is for cool, well-liked guys who can get women already, but who want to get BETTER women — i.e. for dudes already in the top 20% lol. (The original version of the book even said that).

    These other methods, with the extreme behaviors and emotional impact and all that stuff, IMHO, are more about building that fundamental skillset that prepares one for straight up MM.

    Mystery’s 4-10 hour window is still pretty accurate for lays that are coming ~100% from your game prowess (i.e. you are at or below her lookswise).

  75. OK. I’m busted. By Scribblers super zip talk.

    My zip rates 98% Super Zip with what what I consider not a super high income (140K)but also 65% college graduates. My zip code is pretty small and nestled into other non-super zip codes. It is a small collected (homogeneous people) community among other diverse zip codes. My zip code has non-diversity among the people in it. We are not well above UMC at all, probably smack in the UMC. And super conservative. And despite former labels ascribed to me here, not very religious (paradoxically though–religious raised, but you wouldn’t notice religious speak or blue pill speak in everyday life–those things are in the background. I’m not very religious, esp not organized. But I subscribe to religious principles as guiding principles. They are principles of guidance, not because of religion, but the same as religious ideals. Old school ideals before the Losing My Religion corruption of those ideals took over.

    I’m almost embarrassed by this fact of being 98% (because of the education %> I’m in a not super wealthy zip at all. Which makes most of the people I associate with, I feel are normal people not trying to get one over on a fellow person and not snobbish. Wealth is never mentioned or ostentatious, but everyone is not guided by economics.

    Everyone I known is guided by PRINCIPLES. Everyone exudes purpose and pursuit. Everyone believes raising the children is paramount in a nuclear family. We are not just interested in passing on intergenerational wealth at all. (But it is interesting that all are parents are super interested in passing on intergenerational wealth). We are interested in passing on ingroup altruism among our cohorts, spouses, children and neighbors.

    It is actually not “Material conditions and economic prospects” in my cohort. Although there is Abundance Mentality going on. Behavioral traits are good. Everyone plays well with others. There is very little ingroup malice, unless the group gets too big. (i.e. when the ranks of the country club swelled, there was more in-group social “fighting”.)

    So what embarrases me is not that I’m in a Super Zip, it’s that my abundance mentality compared to other men trying to learn red pill and game is somewhat of a positive lack-of-handicap in understanding other commenters here who have that handicap. So Mea Culpa.
    But that doesn’t negate the principles of abundance mentality and taking action to never have a completion in life. Beyond dependence, beyond 50/50 male/female relationships, but idealistic striving for greatness. Sure some people luck into their zip code. I didn’t.

    @Chump No More

    Thanks for your comments on the abundance mindset.

    Despite what I just said about not lucking into it: “I suppose an abundance mindset is easier cultivate/maintain when you’re living in the ‘Hierarchy of Needs’ top tier?”

    True that, not fucking up in Game and what was given you and what you strove for also works.

    Sigh… How the fuck am I ever going to defend my ego abundance here? That just dug me further in a hole regarding that accusation. Dammit.

  76. @SJF

    Having ego abundance isn’t the problem. Talking explicitly about it so frequently and then responding to arguments against or about it comes across as insecurity which is perceived as a lack of congruence in light of such supposed ego and success. It sounds like somebody trying to talk their self in to their own awesomeness by convincing those around them to agree.

    I’m pretty sure that’s why you get the pushback.

  77. @Softek
    October 18, 2016 at 11:07 am

    I reject out of hand what you said there. That is settling talk. That implies that you are seeking a completion in life and not looking out for your purpose and pursuit in the long run.

    Get some more guy friends that trust you and you trust in real life. Make it a priority. It is essential for masculine perspective.

    You are thinking like a defeated guy. That is a choice. It’s not about working/trying harder, but being more efficient and mastering your strategy in your situation.

    If you had a group of five male friends that had your back and you could trust, they would surely call you out on that.

    The talk in the last thread was leaning toward Blax talking about groups of guys getting together. And @RandomAngelino picked up on that.

    The single one thing that allowed me to proceed with red pill awareness and game with abundance in all parts of life (work, relationship, parenting and socializing) that made the most difference, that kept me honest, kept me on a track of self improvement, that kept me from dropping out of social life and kept me from succumbing to vices was a core group of guys that could talk among themselves in a unfiltered fashion.

    Guys that could really feel altruistic for their tribal buddy, support him, call him out on his shit, fight when principles matter, and make up when they don’t. Guys that gave support and guys that didn’t let you settle. Guys that shit tested you when you weren’t being a strong group member. Guys that mentored you if you were a good student mentee on Mastery. Guys that pushed you into your edge. And guys that expected honor in the group of men.

    I fell into this group of guys, just like Culum Struan fell into a group that would have his back. But you can also set as a goal to seek out guys that you can have in a tribe. And I guarantee if you seek them out you will get better with girls.

    You are doing it wrong Softek. Don’t fucking settle for mediocrity (which is how I took your post.)

    I’m not saying you have to do this now, when you don’t have the energy, or are plateauing (which is OK at times). But think about it for the future. Think about the masculine way in a Matrix of pussified men. I get that the deck is stacked against you. But what are you going to do about that? I’d suggests you keep at it and strive for agency and power to direct your life. I’m not saying this to lord it over on you or gloss myself, I’m saying it to light a fire under your ass to be the best you can be.

    Start to cultivate more real, authentic, passionate and dynamic guy friends (and spend less time with guys that aren’t up to those standards). Get out there and make that a goal. Don’t just hang out with guys. Achieve goals with other guys. And accept your friends criticism and actually accept their support and compliments about the good in you. You can do this. You actually just don’t want to right now.

  78. Get some more guy friends that trust you and you trust in real life.

    Strangely enough, I never expected this to be as hard as its been. Even in the small MC I’ve joined (run by a couple hard cases that have done time), there’s so much blue pill capitulation it’s impossible to entirely trust anyone in it. Not sure how long I’ll remain with them. Even the couple guys I’ve met out and about worth trusting (and it really is only a couple) over the past year of really getting out there to meet people are impossible to get together for shit.

    Being a guy trying to seek out masculinity to be a part of is truly like being in a desert, even in a city as large as Dallas. It’s frankly kind of alarming.

  79. gb_hIll

    Re MM

    I would say it depends on your objectives. If you just want to go out an get laid tonight, you can use flash game, screening (in it’s many, many forms – from initial venue selection to girls, to iois etc.) and also just overwhelming attraction. Doing mostly ONS game, this is confirmed, over and over. There may even be a little art to it. A lot of the ‘RSD” style game I would put in this category. Most of my stuff in situ is overwhelming attraction… building a huge bubble off this, a hint of comfort and pulling while the iron is hot to good logistics.

    But you still get inconsistent results and you still have the issue of if you are the chooser or the choosee…

    And that is the big difference with MM. Which Yareally turned me on to when I asked about inconsistent results…

    So I say knowing the MM attraction model is still vitally important for a newer playa, because all the other “systems” still route through this… but a new playa wants fast results and does not have the experience to pull of Mystery’s approach. so spend some time studying it… loop through some more of the flash game system and approaches and then, when you have some more experience, really turn your attention to MM. And you will fill in a lot of the blanks and see it with new eyes.

    The “problem” with MM is not the system it is the execution of it. You NEED to have a solid frame to do it… he does a shit ton of attraction spikes that he just leaves and walks from, building momentum towards his ultimate targets, and then a ton of takeaways and disqualifying on top of that… You have to be secure in the outcome to even start to pull that stuff off credibly. MM is long and strong game by design.

    But it is also chase YOU game by design… You are crossing the rubicon from the chaser to the chasee… and THAT is a different world. When you are turning girls down, slowing things down etc. Mystery is still out there shooting for 5 for 5… any girl, anywhere… his choice…

    So I would not dismiss it out of hand… just yet.

    A thing on other boards more than this one is “I am getting laid but I can’t get girls to fall in love with me”… Mystery goes a long way toward filling in that gap.

    And of course, achieving the supra game state of living a dynamic, passionate and authentic life does as well.

    It’s all in what you want… a lay, a plate, a GF or a ride or die girl…

    http://cliqloaded.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Date.jpg

  80. @ Sun

    I posted this in the Case Study comments.

    As I am learning, many guys don’t seem to have, or believe that they can have real friends.

    ” @ klem

    I apparently have a much, much different relationship with my male friends than you do.

    The guys I mentioned, we speak openly and honestly. No one is concerned with impressing another.

    That’s why we’re friends in the first place.

    It is an immense help in life for men to have true, real friends. Someone who will not ever judge you for honesty. It’s extremely difficult to cultivate these relationships. But it’s definitely worth trying.

    We support and help one another however we can.

    Lol, I’m positive a couple of my friends would help me dispose of a body if I asked.

    This seems to be yet another aspect of male life that’s changing.

    I’ve been fortunate to have valuable friendships with many men in life, and they have taught and enriched me beyond words.

    I intend to pay this forward to my younger male buddies. There are no subjects that aren’t broached in an honest manner.

    Otherwise, what would be the point?”

    Freindship is worthwhile, but difficult to cultivate ime.

  81. @Sun Wukong

    “Talking explicitly about it so frequently and then responding to arguments against or about it comes across as insecurity which is perceived as a lack of congruence in light of such supposed ego and success.”

    “I’m pretty sure that’s why you get the pushback.”

    I don’t disagree with you at all. I’ve said it a million times that I’m not very good at expressing myself. I totally agree with my lack of resonance here. And accept responsibility for not getting my thoughts across well.

    I won’t stop advocating for abundance mentality through mastery. I’m not going to all the sudden stop being an enthusiast of red pill or game. I’m not going to stop being idealistic about relationship game. (And I won’t be judgmental about YSG game, spinning plates, non marriage and non- monogamy. I have changed that way and admit I spoke too highly of my solipsistic ways in the past. That was a mistake.)

    In real life, I’m not walking around being non-congruent.

    On line, it’s been a process for me here over two years. I’m sure you can see that. I’m now not actually insecure about my goals, my purpose, my total embrace of red pill and my agency at game.

    Yes I admit I have been irrationally self confident. But I put it to good use. For a good cause.

    Roissy’s XI. Be irrationally self-confident

    No matter what your station in life, stride through the world without apology or excuse. It does not matter if objectively you are not the best man a woman can get; what matters is that you think and act like you are. Women have a dog’s instinct for uncovering weakness in men; don’t make it easy for them. Self-confidence, warranted or not, triggers submissive emotional responses in women. Irrational self-confidence will get you more pussy than rational defeatism.

    I’m totally aware that I have said some stupid shit and had a supercilious attitude and made dickish comments here.

    I accept your criticism because I respect you and will try to do better. And shut up more. (And bear any pushback? Umm, Sorry?)

  82. Another thing about MM being ‘difficult” is Mystery is executing it in the videos and he is just sooooo super super solid. Plus he does magic and is 6’4″ (my main “knock” if you will – does not discredit his teaching at all, just a fact)…

  83. @Sun Wukong

    “Me: Get some more guy friends that trust you and you trust in real life.

    You:
    “Strangely enough, I never expected this to be as hard as its been. Even in the small MC I’ve joined (run by a couple hard cases that have done time), there’s so much blue pill capitulation it’s impossible to entirely trust anyone in it. Not sure how long I’ll remain with them. Even the couple guys I’ve met out and about worth trusting (and it really is only a couple) over the past year of really getting out there to meet people are impossible to get together for shit.

    Being a guy trying to seek out masculinity to be a part of is truly like being in a desert, even in a city as large as Dallas. It’s frankly kind of alarming.”

    Just a mindset tip in getting a core group of guys. When you are seeing they guy’s to hang with always keep in mind that it is a by product of being on task doing something. Like in the MC it’s not about being with guys. It’s about riding, moving, drinking and achieving a passive, rather than active kinship with these guys and girls.

    If a guy want’s to “talk” to his son, he doesn’t do it by saying “son we need to talk” and face him with talk. It’s about riding beside him in the truck going somewhere. Or doing tasks while talking.

    It was well articulated by Rollo here:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/05/15/tribes/

    Getting guy friends to hang with and will have your back, can only be accomplished as a by product of doing (something, a task) rather than talking.

    It is tough to set out to get a tribe. A tribe will happen if you go out and do things and then you resonate after the fact.

    It also takes vetting, nexting and not wasting time with the unhappy and the unlucky. And also watching out and paying attention to the guys that are doing life well and not being afraid to softly suck up to them. Or on the other hand mentor some guys that have potential that you can pull up to your level. (YaReally has spoken of this.)

    And I certainly wouldn’t mind YaReally chiming in on tactics to have a gang of guys– efficiently and effectively. Passively or actively. And the value of that as it relates to Game.

    And Sun Wukong, I have a hard time believing guys don’t come to you as a mentor. What has happened to that bartender friend and did you have good or bad experiences with that? How could you improve that foot in the door to a tribe of two or more?

    I just think this goal is so important to guys in a feminine world. To have masculine guys, red pill or not to accomplish goals with. If you get guys you can do stuff with and be un-restrained masculine, unrestrained without Blue Pill shackles and White Knights, it is just fun and goal oriented.

    Just trying to give ideas on How, because the Why is definitely Valuable.

  84. @scrib

    Can you sketch out a rough outline of how you got from where you were to where you are now in game?
    I have been flailing around without much advancement over the last year (some of which is definitely the language barrier in this non-English-language country where I live).
    If you could send a note to yourself when you were just starting to learn game, what steps would you tell yourself to take?
    Because my results have been sporadic, I want to put together a game plan for getting better at game.

    @Sentient

    You had a similar journey, correct? Having to learn game as an OMG? What would you tell yourself to do?

    @Blax, Team OMG

    I know the “marriage” discussion got kind of heated and may have seemed tedious to you guys, but it was a huge help for me. You might have thought you were beating your head against a wall, saying the same thing over and over again, but that wasn’t how I received it. Even though you were making roughly the same point, you weren’t saying the exact same thing repeatedly. And each time you tried to explain your position again, it got clearer to me. As one lurker, I appreciate the time you took to try to explain your thoughts. It really did help.

  85. @Zhu Wuneng

    What tips do you want?

    What is your situation?

    Relationship game, pickup game, in a relationship, married? Wanting to spin plates?

    From your questions I take it you are older and single. Right?

    Your situation would predicate recommendations on the direction of advice.

    What are your mindset feelings and stumbling blocks to game?

  86. @Hoellenhund,

    “Here’s the thing: as disgusting as that probably sounds, the fact is that those depressed, intolerable land whales won’t change their ways unless men start incentivizing them to do so.”

    How do we incentivize them? (honest question, not loaded snark)

    —Do we incentivize by withdrawing?

    —Or by becoming yet better men? On the international scale, Anglo men already outclass Anglo females by about 6 SMV points on average. It only seems to torque up the pressure on men while letting women off the hook even moreso.

    I can’t see how a guy can game a fatty into shape or why he would take the time.

  87. It’s funny how women will try to pass over their unattractiveness, and base their lack of sex or unapproachability on a man’s immaturity or lack of gonads.

    They don’t even realise the gynocentric zeitgeist they pushed for and advocate constantly, resulting in their increased unattractiveness & decreasing incentive to to pair, or have sex with them, is what I causing this.

    It’s always…”grow up”, or some other bullshit.

    Never realizing that I mentioned don’t want women, maybe women are the problem….

    Claudia Schiffer was not even that hot then…as Steve Crowder says, we have a divining right between our legs that cannot lie….add to that we’re now beginning to seriously consider the opportunity cost of engaging you, but more so, men are now, slowly but surely, asking “What’s in it for me?”….

    And women should be scared….very scared.

  88. @hank

    what you said about flirting cleared up many things for me now. Thanks. Because you see the flirt word used everywhere by every goddamn person, and for a guy like me who never interacted with girls previously except for here and there (I was actually a misanthrope to be precise), I just couldn’t get what it meant.

    So, according to your words, I think i am flirting these days even with social circle girls lol. Especially these days, with every girl , i look at her eyes like my life is dependent on not breaking the eye contact. lol. The problem is i am not still getting the face time with girls as much as i want to.

    Will focus on breaking rapport more at the same time improving my laser eye contact skill.

    *******

    Also, that link to writing DHV stories. Super useful. Especially about the way he gives ideas to brainstorm for stories from life. I was always stuck for telling stories from my life. I just have 3 off my mind. This brain storming will help me get more stories from my life as well.

    The difficult part is to practice the stories telling it..I think.

    Nevertheless, thanks again.

  89. @kaminsky

    How do we incentivize them? (honest question, not loaded snark)

    —Do we incentivize by withdrawing?

    —Or by becoming yet better men? On the international scale, Anglo men already outclass Anglo females by about 6 SMV points on average. It only seems to torque up the pressure on men while letting women off the hook even moreso.

    I can’t see how a guy can game a fatty into shape or why he would take the time.”

    Those obviously wouldn’t work. These women don’t currently see their “fellow” men as potential husbands or partners, so male withdrawal won’t change their attitudes. (That doesn’t mean male withdrawal is bad, it only means it shouldn’t be viewed as an act of social activism.) All of them becoming better men is unrealistic, and wouldn’t have much of an effect in a world of unrestrained hypergamy.

    Generally speaking, the bottom 80-90% of the male population has marginal or at best limited effect on the mating market. Women don’t even notice them, especially when they [the women] are still young and this able to achieve tangible results by changing their behavior. They can’t become alphas, and their provider role is completely devalued. That doesn’t mean betas are a socially passive force or that women are an active one, because neither is true, it only means betas generally cannot affect female behavior.

    But women do respond to alpha behavior, and they are sensitive to changes in alpha attitudes. When the sexes change their social mores, it usually looks like this: 1. alphas change their attitudes and behavior 2. women adapt to alphas 3. betas adapt to women.

    It should be made clear that a woman basically can’t achieve shit if she tries to change her behavior and attitude if she’s older than 35. At that point, she’s mostly unwanted as an alpha jizz bucket, and also as a companion for betas. She can’t do better with men than she’s already doing. So most of the Midwestern land whales mentioned here are pretty much beyond any redemption.

    If, in a hypothetical scenario, young girls get the impression that alphas look down on slutty women and see them as basically worthless, and that women who find a husband in time and behave as good wives have much better life prospects than single cat ladies, they won’t end up as land whales. They’ll try to avoid that. And when that happens, you’ll see a change in the behavior of the average beta.

  90. This is at the same time, me, and not me.

    I had game. I did well for myself. I got more ass than a toilet seat. Then a couple of LTRs took me off the market for a few years. A rough breakup pushed me to find RP. I say I ‘had’ game, because in the time I was off the market, the smart phone happened. I still haven’t figured out how to best that damned validation machine. But moving on…

    I’m in my late 30s, I’m an electrical engineer. I try. I work. I don’t sit in my mother’s basement. I do well for myself. I live beneath my means and I’m saving a ton of cash. That’s how this post doesn’t apply to me.

    But I find myself bouncing between RP and MGTOW. Truly, I’m terrified I might say the wrong thing to a female at work and find myself in front of HR tomorrow, and I’m just talking about a normal conversation, not trying to pick someone up at the office. Then I read about how all men are rapists, false rape accusations, divorce rape, too-drunk-to-consent, “enthusiastic affirmative consent,” yes means yes, morning-after regrets….there are just too many risks now to interacting with women even outside of work. I do blow hours on my XBox, but even if modern graphics weren’t amazing and there was no XBox, I’d find something else.

    I never wanted kids, so I’m not missing out on that. The sad thing is, I enjoy the company of women, even with their clothes on, but something’s changed in the last ten years. Today’s women have nothing to offer as a companion. They have no depth of character. They have no real interests. They aren’t interested in anything beyond Kim K or Sex in the City. If I can pry their eyes away from their smart phone, I can’t have a substantive conversation with them. Literally, other than a few warm, moist holes, I can’t find a reason to spend time with women. And legal risks make enjoying those warm, moist holes not worth it.

    So, riddle me this, Batman, why should I be pursuing…anything…with a woman? Make that cost-benefit analysis shift to pro-female.

  91. Here’s a story for Mitch, Softek that sadly illustrates the outcomes of relationships with BPDs;

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/jim-carrey-fights-back-against-lawsuits-in-personal-account-of-ex-girlfriend%E2%80%99s-suicide/ar-AAj7dXD?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

    “”In the declaration, obtained by Variety, Carrey professed that he “truly cared” for White but like all couples they had their “ups and downs.” Carrey said that he paid for White’s housing and provided her a stipend, but turned down her request for marriage so she could avoid deportation back to Ireland. In order to obtain a green card, White married Burton, even though she and Carrey were still dating.

    Carrey vehemently denied White’s 2013 accusations that he gave her three sexually transmitted diseases, and even got back with her in November 2014 because “she still loved me and I still loved her.”

    In September of 2015, Carrey said he and White disagreed about cohabitating and she moved out. Carrey confirmed he was taking pain medication sparingly for a back injury at the time, but the pills disappeared when White moved out. His declaration ends with him describing the shock after learning she had overdosed on them and how he’s been in mourning ever since.””

    Here’s the nightmare scenario: guy stays with unstable girl, girl marries other guy to avoid deportation, beta continues dating her… she accuses him of giving her STD’s (she was married wasn’t she?) then it ends badly.

    Guys need to know when to end things and leave while they still have their sanity and savings.

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