Sexual Zoning

sex_zone

Höllenhund brought up an interesting thought a few weeks ago:

This reminds me of something I wanted to ask here in general. The general narrative about MGTOW in the ‘sphere is that they are “avoiding women”. A more general narrative pushed in the mainstream media by Zimbardo, Hymowitz, Milo and other blue/purple pill journalists is that a growing number of young men are avoiding women.

What does “avoiding women” precisely mean in the current socio-cultural context in the West? The word “avoid” entails some sort of active, deliberate, protective measure. My problem with that is that the “avoidance of women”, or a breakaway from women doesn’t look like that at all in practice today, because the social context of male-female interaction has changed completely in the last 2-3 decades.

This is something our pal Novaseeker has described before. In the bygone Western social system, young people were expected to regularly interact with one another in controlled, regulated environments, in a way that fostered productive, long-term, monogamous, assortative relationships. This was a sort of “holistic” milieu, so to speak, where young people treated one another as potential future partners, sexual and otherwise, in a socially regulated manner, in all cases when they were permitted to interact. This was even the norm in workplaces where both men and women were present. The average man found a girlfriend through his extended family or social circle, because families and social circles were normally large.

What we have today is the complete opposite: “sexual zoning”. Some mixed-sex environments, like the workplace, schools and campuses, are made completely asexual – sterile, so to speak. No sexualized interactions are permitted to take place. This is demanded by law and expected by society. In such environments, you’re supposed to treat members of the opposite sex strictly as colleagues or professionals, non-sexual beings. (Hot men are allowed to get away with more, of course, but that’s another issue.) Other mixed-sex environments, on the other hand, like nightclubs, are expected to be full-on sexual. Everybody there knows that all interactions entail the future possibility of casual sex. It’s basically a meat market. You’re expected to hit on girls, and girls expect to be hit on by attractive men. Socializing in these environments requires action, engagement. If you want to find a partner, either just for sex or something more, you have to go there, you have to have Game etc.

In other words, avoidance of women in the old days was an anti-social act of disengagement that was frowned upon. Today, avoidance of women merely means that you’re not expending excess energy and time to do certain things. It’s an “action” with few or no social repercussions – you won’t be socially ostracized or something. But technically it’s not an action. You’re basically “avoiding” women by not hitting the clubs on Saturday night. You’re avoiding them through simple inaction. You can have a full-time job, or go to college, have a social circle, have hobbies, buddies etc., basically a normie life, and still “avoid” women.

I thought this was an interesting observation because there is a stark contradiction in how these sexual zones are presented to men by women. From an old books perspective, men are still expected to be the initiators. It is incumbent upon men to be the sex that approaches and expresses intimate interest in women, and men who don’t, or who fail to build themselves into acceptable mates for women are shamed as being perpetual adolescents or just “giving up.” Our feminine-primary social mandate still promotes the expectation that men will prepare for, and initiate with, women.

However, from a new books perspective men are, as Höllenhund illustrates, expected to know their place in respect to whatever sexual zone they find themselves in, as well as having an understanding of how they are perceived in the SMP. So, in an asexual zone such as a college campus or the workplace, men are expected to know their SMV and act or not act accordingly. Men not meeting or exceeding what would make for an optimized Hypergamy with women are expected not to initiate or approach. In fact, this expected understanding extends to sexual zones and fosters the avoidance Höllenhund talks about here.

For all of the handwringing from feminine-primary gender pundits about men ‘dropping out’ of life or the SMP, it is this contradiction in atmosphere that promotes the avoidance. Hypergamy, being the prime directive of westernized societies, is figuratively best served when women are in complete and unilateral control of sexual selection. Thus, we see laws and social dictates installed to encourage men to self-select themselves out of the process and make this selection easier for women. Men will be shamed for not initiating and not approaching, but simultaneously be held accountable for as much as hate crimes if they step outside what they are expected to know are their appropriate sexual zones.

http://time.com/3852117/millennials-sex-parents-boomers/

Recently there’s been a spate of articles all attempting to explain why millennials aren’t getting after it in an age when it’s never been easier to hook up. Try as they will, nearly all of the explanations fail to account for how sexual zoning has affected the sexual marketplace today. Millennials have the ‘hook up generation’ reputation, but statistically they’re not doing much fucking.

Noah Patterson, 18, likes to sit in front of several screens simultaneously: a work project, a YouTube clip, a video game. To shut it all down for a date or even a one-night stand seems like a waste. “For an average date, you’re going to spend at least two hours, and in that two hours I won’t be doing something I enjoy,” he said.

It’s not that he doesn’t like women. “I enjoy their companionship, but it’s not a significant part of life,” said Patterson, a Web designer in Bellingham, Washington.

He has never had sex, although he likes porn. “I’d rather be watching YouTube videos and making money.” Sex, he said, is “not going to be something people ask you for on your résumé.”

One aspect that these largely millennial writers themselves seem oblivious to is the complexities of sexual zones that shift constantly for guys. In 2016 hooking up is easy, we’ve got Red Pill awareness and we have instantaneous communication, but what we don’t have are clearly defined sexual zones. Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.

This is a common refrain from MGTOWs. It’s usually some variation of  “why should I waste my time trying to untangle some girl’s head just to put myself at risk of a sexual harassment or rape accusation?”

Fred Flange had this comment a few weeks ago:

Co-sign, and this “soft MGTOW” observation ties in nicely with the WashPost’s “no sex please we’re collegiate” article. MGTOW is now socially subsidized and easy to implement: just do nothing! At college, don’t engage in class, or even better, “attend” the lectures on-line. Say no more in class or lab than you must, then leave. Start no convos, you won’t be dragged into any. All of this goes for cubicle workers: in the lunchroom, stare at your phone, or eat at your desk, or if you can, get outside but go alone. No feelings caught, no feelings hurt. Everybody gets nothing, therefore everybody wins.

Eventually you can learn the fine art of disappearance in urban settings: yes you occupy space, but other than someone bumping into you, it is possible to go anywhere without your registering with anyone in the vicinity, not even cops. You can switch it on and off like a light.

One possible corollary to look for: see if the “bros before homes” shaming begins to die down. It should. Because before that you patriamalarkey-preaching Tumblr-inas insisted you wanted that cheesy-bro to go? He’s GONE! Soft MGTOW is the mandated social paradigm, outside of “safe social zones” like public streets, malls, clubs, etc. plus in some workplaces and colleges it’s law. You’re going to complain about men obeying the law?

There’s also no shortage of articles decrying the absence of boys and young men these days too. The frequent bugbear in these always point to guys ‘dropping out’ and playing X-Box all day. From America’s Lost Boys:

Young men, significantly more so than young women, are stuck in life. Research released in May from the Pew Center documented a historic demographic shift: American men aged 18-30 are now statistically more likely to be living with their parents than with a romantic partner. This trend is significant, for one simple reason: Twenty- and thirtysomething men who are living at home, working part-time or not at all, are unlikely to be preparing for marriage. Hurst’s research says that these men are single, unoccupied, and fine with that—because their happiness doesn’t depend on whether they are growing up and living life.

Now, granted, this article presumes men’s adulthood ought to be measured by his capacity to get involved with a woman, support a family and maintain a steady job. It’s very hard for writers who tackle this topic to pull their heads out of the old books reasonings. Thus, the go-to answer to the question of ‘why do guys drop out?’ is video games. It’s far easier to goof on men as a whole if they can be made to look juvenile, lazy or stupid to the point men not knowing what’s good for them.

It would take a real effort to tackle the larger reasons as to why men drop out, and men like Samuel James (article author) would be forced to acknowledge the disincentives for men to participate in what his old books reasonings tell him is some mutually beneficial arrangement. Those disincentives don’t paint women in a very flattering light, so it’s much easier to dismiss them as garden variety misogyny.

The drop out generation are content with their lot in life because they’ve accepted the realities of a social order that debases men and manhood to being appliances to better serve women’s imperatives. And the risks of investing themselves in a relationship or finding the inner will to become better men for the sake of “growing up” are significant when the rules of engagement and the acceptable sexual zones are constantly changing.

The Damage Done By ‘Mattress Girl’

“Even in less extreme situations, young men are more skeptical of women’s ability or propensity to consent to sex, which some women on campus consider demeaning.

“I find that men are more and more interested in ensuring that I’m consenting before sex, which would seem like a good thing,” Columbia student Dylan Hunzeker said. “But sometimes I don’t necessarily feel that way. Especially when I have to answer a man’s question: ‘are you sure you’re not too drunk?’ Or ‘you want to have sex with me?’ In a sense, it’s annoying and debilitating to be constantly questioned about whether or not I have agency and am a sexual human being.”

“Men are scared of women on campus now, and fear breeds anger and prejudice. Women are frustrated by men, which inspires a lack of desire to collaborate for solutions.”

I would argue that a large majority of men accused of sexual harassment or even just suspected of impropriety are men who’ve found themselves in an environment they believed was an acceptable sexual zone. We are fast approaching a time when all zones will be so arbitrary and ambiguous that every environment with sexual potential will be avoided. This will have the effect of putting women into unilateral control of their own Hypergamy. It will be a state of Sadie Hawkins world – only women will make approaches on men and only those who match her Hypergamous ideal, an ideal fostered and reinforced by a steady diet of social media ego inflation.

It’s ironic that authors bemoaning the drop out generation of men never acknowledge the other side of the disincentives for men – those generated by a feminine-primary social narrative – the generation of women who remain unmarried well into their middle age. When this is explored, once again, it’s the result of the juvenile, ridiculous men that same narrative has created for itself.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

508 comments on “Sexual Zoning

  1. It’s just two different rating systems, I think.

    The 1-10 HB system of rating women long, long predates SMV type analysis, and it does have the idea of some kind of objective standard to it. If you’re talking strict SMV, of course the term itself is about market value, so it has to be relative to what the market is assigning as value. So these are two different things. Some people think it’s a waste of mental energy to even consider the first one, whereas others don’t because they can distinguish between them easily enough. It’s one of those things that people are not going to agree about, I think.

  2. @nova

    It’s just two different rating systems, I think.

    lol, that’s what I’ve been saying. but scray wants to come in and call us all keyboard jockies just because we’d like to spend a few minutes chatting about the objective variant.

    You can come in and say sure, objective is nice, but make sure you also consider the smp in todays environment. That’s all well and good and is good info.

    Or you can be crybully and call everyone who doesn’t feel like talking about the SMP 24/7 a KJ and then act surprised when everyone thinks you are an ass lol.

    It just amazing to me the supposed game gurus who don’t understand basic social conventions.

    If you want to teach some one something, you probably shouldn’t treat them like an idiot. Then they just think you are an ass and should go fuck yourself.

    But if you use basic social skills to not alienate people, lol, then maybe they will consider what you are saying.

    Its like an evangelical that tries to convert people to christianity by punching them in the face before telling them the good news. Lol, motherfucker maybe you should try not punching them in the face first.

    like I said a looong time ago about scray and sentient, you guys are a trainwreck when it comes to teaching other people.

    just let yareally and habd and forge do this stuff from now.

  3. kfg
    . . . pursue what we can measure, whether it is actually relevant or not, and perhaps just a proxy of a proxy of a confounder.

    Framingham Heart study is full of that stuff, and “cholesterol causes CHD” is one example.
    But hey, statins made a lot of money for big pharma, so it’s all good.

    I buy my own ferritine test, because the insurance companies decided some years ago that iron didn’t matter, especially in men. But they will test cholesterol 6 ways from Sunday. Because “best practice”.

    A lot of what is called “science” is like a drunk looking for his car keys under a street light half a block from where he dropped them, because the light there is better.

  4. I don’t know/care about the fight going on so I’m just going to rant about the rating scale in general lol this isn’t aimed at anyone specific, I just skimmed the jist of the posts and have time to type some shit up right now about rating systems in general:

    @scray
    “uhhh if dudes are giving the attention associated with a 7 to her, then she’s a 7. you don’t get to be like NAH BRO SHE’S REAAAAAALY A 6.

    Nah, if the market is moving her way, then the market has spoken. Sorry.

    Now maybe the 2016 market is FUCKED UP or YOU WISH it were different to better comport with your PERSONAL SHIT…but the market is the market.”

    “And tbh, 2016 SMV dictates all. The field rules all. The chicks getting treated like 7s are 7s. Sorry. The market has spoken. These appeals to mount Olympus are gay.”

    “There are a ton of guys in the manosphere who bitch and moan and say shit like “bro this 3 SLORE wasn’t responding to me! WTF! SOCIAL MEDIA INFLATES THESE CHICKS PAST THEIR ACTUAL WORTH RAAAWR!” Nope. This is the wrong attitude to have. That “3” is a “7” in 2016.

    I don’t give a shit why or how it got to be that way, it is what it is.
    And when you equate your own personal platonic made up ideals to reality, well….

    You’re gonna have a bad time. You’re not going to use the right game. You’re not going to be able to follow the number one rule of the PUA: be cool.”

    All of this. The PUA community has gone through a bunch of rating systems because a lot of stuff is subjective (from the 0-1 system to the “anything above an 8 is subjective” system to the “rate her on looks and personality separately” etc etc). And the whole point of the rating for us is just so it’s clear why we’re doing what in our Field Reports (ie – if I say I negged an “HB6 who thinks she’s an HB9”, then my neg was probably calibrated and the FR can be analyzed from the right perspective VS if I say I “negged an HB6” which will sound like I wasn’t calibrated or I “negged an HB9” which would make you think I was gaming an HB9 and put a bunch of traits/labels on her that weren’t there because she was actually just an average chick)

    But infield it all basically boils down to these 3 things (but only the 3rd one matters for pickup):

    1) what YOU rate her personally based on your tastes

    2) what SOCIETY rates her based on overall trends in society (including the thirstiness of guys on social media)

    and 3) what SHE rates herself which is BASED ON the feedback/treatment she gets from society and her default internals (which is what Scray is describing when he says “It is the sexual market. Girls ping off their environment, meaning that they are getting POSITIVE FEEDBACK from social media, etc. and whatever else. It’s not just them dreaming it up.”)

    Those 3 ratings can be WILDLY different. Some BBW lover can view a fatty as a 10 while society views her as a 2 and she views herself as a 6. You can have a smokeshow hottie you view as a 10, society views as a 10, but she views herself as a 6. You can have a fatty that you view as a 2, society views as a 2, but because of all the feedback she’s getting on social media plus her own delusional internals because she’s an SJW fully steeped in that insane fat = beautiful culture, she can view herself as a 10.

    Your personal rating of her is great for telling stories to your buddies and giving eachother props and shit, but it’s COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in terms of how you game her.

    Society’s rating of her is great for telling stories and shit, but it’s COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in terms of how you game her EXCEPT that you should be aware of what kind of feedback she’s getting (or likely getting) from society because that will help tell you the only rating that ACTUALLY matters:

    How SHE rates HERSELF.

    THAT’S the only rating that matters infield and what you calibrate your game to. Everything else is either mental masturbation (either positively, like for bonding with eachother like hank’s original post was probably for, or negatively, like holding guys back (I can’t approach her, she’s out of my league)) or just helps you determine what THIS rating is likely to be (ie – a smokin hot girl you know probably gets lots of positive feedback and probably doesn’t view herself as a 4 BUT YOU HAVE TO BE OPEN TO THE POSSIBILITY that she views herself as a 4 if that’s the behavior she exhibits once you interact with her…and an uggo probably gets negative feedback in society, except in 2016 a WHOLE BUNCH OF UGGOS are getting the same positive feedback a 10 gets, which is fucking everything up and making it so you have to treat an UGGO like an arrogant cocky 10 that needs to be negged etc because HER rating of herself is all that matters).

    So in an environment where there are no actual hot girls, just a bunch of fatties, one of those fatties is going to be getting the social feedback and have better internals and view herself as the “hottest” fatty. You game her as if she’s a 10 (or, you know, go to a better environment why are you sarging a fat camp lol), and you game the other fatties as if they’re 4s or whatever, because those are how they view themselves.

    “Like, dudes who believe that the “average” woman (OR WORSE) are the best they can do aren’t that uncommon — 80% of dudes.”

    This. And this doesn’t even have to do with what they WANT or are sexually attracted to. Their dick WANTS hotter, but they don’t think they can GET hotter because they’ve been socially conditioned to believe looks matter and they can only get girls in their “looks range” etc Just bullshit FI-conditioned nonsense to help weed out the guys who don’t have confidence to approach that hottie (that she wouldn’t be attracted to anyway) from the guys who do. SO a lot of the time they adjust their whole 1-10 scale based on their limiting beliefs. This is why I push guys to talk to HOT girls that they think are OUT of their looks range, so they can get positive feedback and start realizing that their limit isn’t anywhere near as low as society conditioned them to believe.

    That’s why at no point in the above rating stuff did I talk about your own rating of yourself or society’s rating of yourself, because it doesn’t matter if you’re pro-actively running game and get your game skills tight like you should be working on. I don’t even know what my rating for myself would be, I’m basically average across the board, probably a 7 or something, I literally don’t even know, maybe a 6 or like a high 7 if you overlook the chub lol? It doesn’t matter at ALL to the point where it’s not even a thing I would invest actual thought into determining lol It’s just not relevant to anything infield.

    Anyway Tyler’s infield at 1:30 (I still don’t like Luke’s game btw, he comes off too asexual to me and I rarely see girls actually give him what looks like legitimate sexual attraction, buuut he also runs a different style of game that’s 100% social circle focused where you don’t heavily game the girls in public you just be fun and then isolate a girl at the end of the party and do your “real” gaming in isolation where she has no reason NOT to fuck you and has discretion etc (at 36:40 he talks about leading social circle hangouts to isolation and gaming with Dan Bilzerian and a bit of Dan’s style and he makes good points about how hot girls WANT to talk about dirty sexual topics), but either way Tyler in the infield here is the one I want to make a point about):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdo7DGAqSdA&t=1m30s

    At 1:30 Tyler (who’s been purposely getting fat all year (lots of carbs and no gym) so he can make a YouTube channel on fitness where he goes from being fat to in shape lol, so he’s late 30s, almost fully George Costanza balding at this point, 5’8″, nasally voice, retarded insane ginger beard like a homeless man, doesn’t dress in fitted suits with matching pocket-squares etc) pulls a girl that, regardless of where you’d place her on the 1-10 (“I don’t like fake bitches”, “she’s too skinny”, “she sounds dumb” etc) or where you’d place him (he’s not the Chad Thundercock ideal by any means), she is OBJECTIVELY a “hot” girl that’s “out of Tyler’s league”.

    He SHOULDN’T be able to get her legitimately attracted to him if we go by what he’s objectively rated on a 1-10 Chad Thundercock scale VS what most of the guys in the bar that night would have rated the girl on 1-10 in the club that night (VS us watching from our computer chairs where we can critique her pointy elbows).

    But she’s part of Luke’s social circle so Tyler has built in social proof and he has good subcomms/game/etc but he stresses that he barely has to actually DO anything because of his socially proofed VALUE (just having fun with her at the start (when he’s first dancing behind her you can tell she’s just attention whoring and isn’t really into him), then he focuses on spiking her emotions (A1) until she’s giving A2, tests for compliance with making her lick the other girl’s nipples etc and qualifies her (you can see him talking with her behind Luke and the other girl, clearly getting into more rapport, also lol at the brown guy hanging off Tyler trying to fuck with him lol I think that’s RSD Ryan a former instructor) so he’s building A3, and in the diner he focuses more on lasers and rapport/comfort/qualifying, standard Mystery Method structure in action).

    Also lol at his sweaty gross back, bald spot, and being shorter than her as they leave the club at 3:05. Does Tyler look like the type of guy that ANYONE seeing this girl would EXPECT her to go home with? That that’s the natural “looks range” everyone would expect to see? Were there NO more physically attractive guys in the club than Tyler? He was the 10/10 at that venue? A Vegas nightclub where girls dress like that didn’t have any Chad Thundercocks in it?

    But would he have gotten her if he passively sat around and played the “let the girl decide based on our looks” game like other good-looking guys in the club did when they saw her? No, she wouldn’t have even noticed him. She’d have done that “grind on Luke’s friend for the cameras” thing and then ignored him the rest of the night.

    And he knows how SHE probably views herself on the 1-10 scale, and can narrow that down more accurately from interacting with her, so he games her based on THAT, not based on what he thinks she is or even what society thinks she is (because if she indicates that she’s actually low self-esteem then he would calibrate to her viewing herself as more of a 6, whereas if she acts cocky then he calibrates to her viewing herself more like a 10).

    “go out to clubs, try to break in VIP, deal with that shit, open the 21 y/o hotties, do so WITH A STARTING DISADVANTAGE (like yannow, being short lol)…”

    lol see SCRAY would find a way to be macking the girls in Luke’s social circle infield there. Because Scray gets that if you’re just a normal dude and you want HOT girls you have to hustle and find ways to get TO them, while most guys wouldn’t even get INTO that club, let alone know how to befriend Luke and get access to those girls…they would just go to the shitty pub down the street with the average crowd and then cry about how women are all fat lol

    This goes back to what I said in my Halloween rant which I’m gonna post again before Halloween, but you should ALL be approaching the hottest girls you can find on Halloween because they will be friendly by DEFAULT on Halloween because they’re out purposely trying to draw attention. Fuck whatever you want at the end of the night, but step up and approach the hottest girls and try to push those sets for a Same Night Lay and gather the reference experiences (and potential social connections) to where THOSE girls become a part of what you feel entitled to instead of just what you masturbate to on PornHub lol

    Why do I harp on “pro-active” so much? 1:18 is an example from Madison (average height black dude with some crooked teeth):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S9_b3gNHQk&t=1m18s

    Whatever you rate this girl and her friends, the ATTENTION they’re getting from decent/good-looking dudes is inflating their value (in that environment in that moment at least). Even the fatty has a tall decent looking dude making out with her. You can rate that girl a 1 if you want, she’s going to think that she can get guys like that and need to be treated based on how she rates herself based on this social feedback and her internals.

    While that’s going on a taller better looking guy starts in on Madison’s girl at 2:25, so she’s got guys fighting over her. Again it doesn’t matter if she’s just an average chick to you, in THAT moment she may feel like she’s an 8. You read everything from how she acts, her body-language, how she responds to things, etc for how to calibrate your game.

    Now for the pro-active part…that AMOG who comes in walks off looking at his phone so he probably just got her phone number instead of pushing for the Same Night Lay. Then the guy who was making out with the fatty hailed a cab for Madison’s girl and probably the fatty since fatty vanished, she’s probably in the cab too (meanwhile another average girl has two guys, one tall decent-shape lookin dude in the white shirt, still on her).

    99% of guys would go “well that’s it, that’s done, they’re getting in a cab, and that guy will probably go with them”. Even that guy isn’t jumping right in. Madison gets her attention and then spikes her Buying Temp and the taller guy realizes he’s gaming her and tries to get her attention back but knowing how to spike a girl’s Buying Temp is how you keep her RAS focused on you and off other guys (which is why I stress learning to do it) and Madison gets the invite to jump in the cab and join them and instead of thinking it over or over-gaming or engaging the AMOG he just instantly jumps through the window of opportunity and they take off with the tall AMOG literally saying “What’s going ON here?!?” as you hear the girls saying “I love this guy (Madison)!!” through his mic lol

    Madison is probably objectively not as good looking as some of those guys were. But as long as you’re pro-active that looks shit doesn’t really matter. It makes such an insignificant difference that it’s not worth worrying about.

    @Rollo
    “Game savvy I would expect his standards to be higher than they were while he was Beta.”

    Unfortunately “game savvy” doesn’t equate to “actually having higher standards infield” 🙁 lol All comes down to the entitlement you develop (which comes from field experience pushing yourself to approach and game hot girls that are above your entitlement level).

    @Novaseeker
    “Are docs still marrying nurses these days”

    Don’t know if they’re marrying them but they’re fucking the shit out of them lol And why wouldn’t they, they all work retarded hours cooped up in the hospital together and the doctor is basically acting like a boss and treated as high-value by everyone and has preselection as nurses ping off eachother for which guys are attractive etc In the environment those nurses are spending most of their time in, the outgoing cool doctors are basically the top of the hypergamy chain for them. On top of it they’re all going through ups and downs emotionally together with stressful work, long hours, losing patients etc so there’s a lot of fast comfort-building.

    But it comes down to the same as always: the nerdy beta doctors are getting classified as potential providers at best or ignored completely and the alpha cool outgoing doctors have nurses jumping on their dick when they all party together (which they do a fuckton, like multiple times a week lol ’cause they have money to burn and can just buy rounds of drinks for all the nurses no fucks given and get them wasted and all go back to whoever’s fancy condo for the afterparty where they can hook up)

    Also I’m only talking about young doctors working in dynamic/chaotic hospital environments with young nurses VS like, a 55yo doctor working in a small quiet clinic prescribing ear medication for kids lol That guy would probably have to deal with more legal risks like an office employee would.

    “Some people think it’s a waste of mental energy to even consider the first one”

    I think Scray is just pointing out that like, a lot of this stuff is just a waste of mental energy and newbies can be affected by that stuff in a negative way, in that it doesn’t do a newbie any good infield to know that like, Scray thinks Jennifer Lawrence is a 10 (or whatever, I forget who said what lol), ’cause if he thought JLaw was a 7 now he’s gonna meet a JLaw and be like “oh man, she’s a 10” and pedestalize her when he shouldn’t. And if he thinks JLaw is a 10 but Scray says “naw she’s a 6 man”, he’s gonna be less proud of himself (and reap less internal entitlement rewards) when he gets her because he only got a 6 by other guys on a forum’s standards, etc etc

    Like, I think he’s just pointing out that there’s no real practical benefit to it aside from guys shooting the shit on a forum. But I don’t care if guys are posting pics to rate for fun (which I think is what hank was doing), I have no dog in the fight on either side, I’m just dropping general rating systems related information, none of this is aimed at anyone specific.

    @scray
    “so you can’t choose the HIGH VALUE behavior in every situation unless you can ACCURATELY evaluate each situ, which includes having a good idea of the CURRENT value people place on you.”

    Right, what we’re saying when I say “your rating doesn’t matter” isn’t really in conflict. I’m describing the guy who gets his skills to where he CAN accurately evaluate each situation. ie – Tyler walks into Luke’s party not caring whether he’s a 4 or 10, he just knows that he’ll have a certain level of high value by default to the girls by being friends with Luke, so he doesn’t have to do much compared to if he was out solo and crashing someone else’s VIP party where he would have to bust out a ton of game to DHV his way up to where they see him as the same level of high value as he’s seen at Luke’s party.

    But to me none of that has to do with his looks rating, it has to do with his value rating to the people he’s interacting with moment to moment. Like whether he’s a 1 or a 10 doesn’t really matter, the 10 guy on Death Row has low value in that moment to the people around him and the 1 guy who’s friends with Luke and DHVs and has preslection etc has high value in that moment to the people around him.

    I just always assume that while I’m obviously a 10 (lol), by DEFAULT I have zero value. I’ll HAVE 10 value to ALL of them, when I can DHV enough in front of them to HAVE that value, so my goal in gaming is just to DHV enough to have that value and get the girl. Nice and simple. My actual looks don’t matter. I can stand beside the super good-looking guy choding out on Death Row and we’re both invisible to the girl, and I can enter a set with an uglier guy than me but if he’s more fun and charismatic and sexual etc than me and can get the girls emotionally reacting to him and can get me reacting to him (him being 0.00001% cooler than me) then he’s going to take over the girls’ RAS and get the attraction.

    Like, my actual looks rating doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is how these people in this moment perceive my value. My INHERENT value doesn’t even matter, a nerdy quiet doctor who saved a million lives and is rich as shit will still get ignored if he can’t DEMONSTRATE value to the girls and the girls don’t know all that stuff about him. But if I come along and brag for him about that stuff, that helps demonstrate his value to them.

    And on the flip side I can be a complete wreck with nothing going for me but if I can demonstrate the things that I know, to this person, in this moment, calibrated to their value system, the environment, etc are “high value”, I’ll be high value. My objective looks rating doesn’t matter (picture the nerd girl rejecting the Chad Thundercock jock for the weird skinny artsy dude because in her value system he demonstrates more high value)

    And what do girls value most across the board? More than a 6-pack or money? FEELS lol

  5. @novaseeker

    It’s just two different rating systems, I think.

    Yes, something I said at the outset.

    Some people think it’s a waste of mental energy to even consider the first one, whereas others don’t because they can distinguish between them easily enough. It’s one of those things that people are not going to agree about, I think.

    One has facts supporting it. The only fact supporting the other one is that men DISAGREE on the “objective rankings” past like a 7 anyway.

    It’s for the birds.

    It’s like fatties talking about their perfect man, George Clooney or Brad Pitt.

    @hank

    nah your whole vibe has been agressive the whole time and starting shit where all that’s required is to point out some subtle differences here and there.

    Those differences were made clear at the start of the conversation by me. Yeah and then what I said keeps being misunderstood, misinterpreted, and treated as though it hasn’t been said at all. And then you wanted to act like you were having the conversation and I interrupted when exactly the opposite happened…

    So it’s like, lol, you’ve got jokes about what I’m like…you’re just like someone who can’t read.

    That;s all we were doing and you have to pull all this other shit into the discussion.

    “all this other shit” was the start of the discussion….

    doesn’t mean you are a keyboard jockely lol

    Eh, you want to ignore reality (SMP 2016 SMV) in favor of some vague “objective” personal standard and hash that out between people as if it isn’t some sort of personal thing. Doing X with the “reality” removed is literally the def of KJ’ing.

    You can KJ, it’s fine, but that’s what it is. There’s no game-tactic utility in it.

  6. @AR

    A lot of what is called “science” is like a drunk looking for his car keys under a street light half a block from where he dropped them, because the light there is better.

    i always thought leeches got a bad rap…lol

    good luck!

  7. @Ya

    Yeah cosign all of that. I only use looks to kind of illustrate the concepts cause people really can’t follow along unless you work in that paradigm wrt value and stuff lol.

  8. habd
    my buddy upthread went through ALL the churchian hoops to ‘fix’ his marriage (long term one too, like 25 years…adult kid so he didn’t get stuck with child support… but that whole situ reads like one of Rollo’s hypos…lol…)… ‘love languages’, ‘counseling’, etc… dude really put in the effort… he even lost weight for a while… soon-to-be-ex HATES his guts…and wants to ‘MAKE HIM PAY’… WE all know WHY that is… he just can’t understand it… and at this point doesn’t really want to… i just can’t get it across though…

    It hit me today that a lot of “counselling” both religious and not religious basically assumes attraction exists. Choreplay is one of their go-to things, at best that is Comfort. In fact, a lot of the stuff counsellors suggest is Comfort. So counselling is like a man running MM who tries to blow past all Attraction stages and cut right to Comfort, how does that work out?

    Long winded versions of “just be yourself” interspersed with Comfort is what a lot of “relationship help” writing boils down to. Given that most people writing that stuff seem to be women or feminized men, not a surprise.

    In reality the problem in most marriages is lost Attraction due to a man allowing himself to get too Beta, so the first thing to do is generate Attraction again, which means various DHV’s etc. and isn’t that the basis of Athol’s original Male Action Plan?

    However, generating Attraction requires a man to be masculine and dominate – this runs right into the pearl-clutching section of modern feminism, so we get fretting about “Patriarchy” and “potential for abuse” in various sectors especially the churches. Irony.

    habd’s buddy could start off just reading Proverbs and writing down on a piece of paper every single verse that refers to women. Every. Single. One. Then read it back to himself, bearing in mind that this is a Bible book so if he’s churchgoing it’s something that he has to accept as true.

    Count the number of verses that describe women in good terms vs. as a problem. Then he can say “Well, it’s not just ME”. He’s not the only man ever to come to the point where he’d rather live in a tent on the roof than share quarters with a contentious woman. Not by a long shot.

    tl;dr
    Most counselling assumes attraction already exists when it clearly doesn’t. PUA’s have a better model of male-female relationships. Mystery Method arguably would work better for most men, churchgoing or not, trying to revive a marriage than all the “luv languages”. But MAP and Rollo’s books are more approachable for most married men.

  9. @ sentient

    Thanks for the pointers I am reading the Manual of seduction by Franco.
    It really ties in with everything I have learnt here and after a few reads (I’m an old dog) I’m sure it will give me a better understanding of basic game.

    Soon I will be unstoppable!

  10. @Anonymous Reader
    “It hit me today that a lot of “counselling” both religious and not religious basically assumes attraction exists. Choreplay is one of their go-to things, at best that is Comfort. In fact, a lot of the stuff counsellors suggest is Comfort. So counselling is like a man running MM who tries to blow past all Attraction stages and cut right to Comfort, how does that work out?”

    Yup. Just like “be nice and bring her flowers” is great when you’re so high-value that you intimidate her (aka the guy she pictures when you ask her how a guy can get her, she’s not picturing how can balding ugly Tyler get her), and she would want him to raise her up to his value with compliments pedestalization etc

    “But MAP and Rollo’s books are more approachable for most married men.”

    Agreed. Those things will make them do the things they’d naturally have been doing the whole time in a pLTR…wait why did they get married in the first place? 😉 😉 😉 LOLOLOL DONT SHOOT ME EVERY1.

  11. Having read all this rating shit, I agree it would be nice to have a common standard, like the metric system, to be able to evaluate chicks, so that we could have a common calibration of data for advancing the development of game etc.

    Sadly it seems there are too many variables to be able to do that. Such as:

    environment, it’s all ham beasts in some locations
    alcohol content of the man
    Sperm pressure in the man
    Girls self opinion
    And of course their behavior, there are some girls I think are great until they open their mouth and say something, then they lose two points instantly.
    I also find, anecdotally that a lot of people don’t photograph well, as demonstrated above, are they done up or is it an ambush shot? In my experience a lot of girls in person can actually be a bit better than their photo score because hey, femininity. AKA Girl game
    Age, young is good, boner cannot lie

    My final conclusion(s) is I must have been reasonably alpha when I was younger, or just plain choosy because there was plenty of fatter or less hot chicks I could of banged but I never wanted to lower myself to that. I banged two half way fat chicks in my life under drunken duress knowing I wouldn’t be caught. One of them I fucked because she was my boss and I heard she’d stop grabbing my junk and shit if I fucked her, so I did, and she did stop. Plus she was one of the most depraved people I have ever fucked, literally said “I will do ANYTHING you want”. Uggh, I almost barfed right there.
    Conclusions:
    One, I doubt I could have got it up for an uggo chick on the regular, two, I intuitively did not want some fat chick fucking up my pre-selection effect with hotter girls. Three I did not want to catch heat from my friends about swimming in the gutter. There would never be bad feedback about banging a slut who was a hottie, but banging any kind of uggo, good girl or slut would be lots of heat from my buddies. Four, I could get good pretty good looking girls so it never occurred to me to lower my standard just to bust a nut, even for months at a time if need be. I could go full camel for a while if I needed to. To a large extent I was also a serial monogamist so I would not be invested in anything I didn’t want to hang out with for more than a night.

  12. habd
    i always thought leeches got a bad rap…lol

    Funny thing about that. There’s a 35 year old paper that points the finger at “too much iron” as the major cause for heart attacks. A major source of iron in the Western diet is red meat.
    Red wine contains polyphenols that can carry iron through the GI tract, keeping the iron out of the bloodstream. There’s supplements that will chelate iron out of the body, slowly, but if a man or a post-menopausal woman needs to get iron down the easy and fast way to do it is to donate blood.

    Some people build up iron fast – hemochromatosis – and they have to bleed regularly in a cllinic to stay healthy. Not donate blood, just bleed.

    In other words, bleeding can promote health for some people…especially those who eat beef and don’t bleed a lot. Like 18th century English male aristocrats. George Washington era men. Those 18th century medicos weren’t entirely stupid, they were just limited in their knowledge base. And the French who habitually drink red wine with meat?

    Hmm…nah, I’ll keep on donating blood, leeches are too slimy. But they would do in a pinch.

  13. @HABD:

    Flaked obsidian scalpels are coming back into vogue too. Trends are cyclical. Next thing you know they’ll be sacrificing the winners of basketball games.

  14. @Anonymous Reader

    I buy my own ferritine test, because the insurance companies decided some years ago that iron didn’t matter, especially in men.”

    As some might not know ferritin is a test for assessing iron stores. And I assume you are trying to keep yours at or below a certain level. What is your target number that you want?

    And how much do you pay for it at the retail cost level?

    (As an aside, 80% of my young pre-menopausal telogen effluvium (a type of hair loss) sudden significant hair loss patients without other medical causes have low ferritin levels. But most are still within the claimed normal of 24 to 336 nanograms per milliliter. Even though normal, it is the proximate cause of their excessive hair loss and they then need to get it up to 80. This condition and the cause is sometimes little know by average health care professionals.)

  15. @AR

    It hit me today that a lot of “counselling” both religious and not religious basically assumes attraction exists.

    FI = attraction is a CHOICE…lol…

    Long winded versions of “just be yourself” interspersed with Comfort is what a lot of “relationship help” writing boils down to.

    yep, that shit was also leading ME up the step to the abattoir 5 years ago… i did ALL that shit too…lol…just dug the open grave deeper… but i didn’t have any other options… or even any idea for potential possibilities of other options…

    until i found ‘game’…thankfully, i was ‘planning for failure’ and assumed that i would be back on the dating market soon enough…lol…bc i knew on a gut level that what i WAS doing wasn’t working… AT ALL… and i got ‘enough’ game… fast ‘enough’… to start to turn it around… but it was close… i bailed on a ‘marriage counseling appointment’ and never looked back… lol.. (i did actually lie about ‘not remembering’, so i wasn’t COMPLETELY a RP hardass overnight…lol…but i made it stick…)

    Then he can say “Well, it’s not just ME”.

    doesn’t seem to matter… just gets the ‘beta head shake of resignation’… i can almost see the FI pushing his head back and forth…lol… i hate that shit, but there’s only so much i can do…

    good luck!

  16. @anon

    Dude, you’re all over the place here picking arguments

    More like picking you up off the floor after….

    https://m.popkey.co/8257f5/b0Lqr.gif

    then

    https://67.media.tumblr.com/5fc13168cbec160c6670ca4fcd032d9d/tumblr_n0oapqXmKt1rbu6s7o1_400.gif

    then

    https://67.media.tumblr.com/f81c5ac8ef1a1aa4343ac28cce4a59e8/tumblr_o9l3fnivIH1u4ub7bo5_400.gif

    then we took a break and played some basketball but…

    https://media.giphy.com/media/e8p760qP4HHq0/giphy.gif

    you still ended up on your ass

    is this you?

    https://media.giphy.com/media/10M2ZnecwCMVGg/giphy.gif

    …at least the black is slimming.

  17. @kfg

    @HABD:

    Flaked obsidian scalpels are coming back into vogue too. Trends are cyclical. Next thing you know they’ll be sacrificing the winners of basketball games.

    yea, good luck finding any virgins in 2016…lol…

    good luck!

  18. @YaReally

    while most guys wouldn’t even get INTO that club, let alone know how to befriend Luke and get access to those girls…they would just go to the shitty pub down the street with the average crowd and then cry about how women are all fat lol

    There may be SOME clubs where 9s & 10s go which are exclusive, but I have no trouble finding hot girls in the club where I go…not many 10s, to be sure, but a couple of 9s aren’t uncommon, with quite a few 8s and a horde of 7s & 6s and some fatties. In my club, you pay the cover and you’re in. I don’t see exclusivity keeping men away from hot girls where I live and I bet that’s not that uncommon.

  19. @yareally @scray

    Everything else is either mental masturbation (either positively, like for bonding with eachother like hank’s original post was probably for

    yup. that’s it. all we were doing. just for fun. then scray jumps in with all this bullshit. no need for an argument at all.

    its the same thing whenever I work on shit here, like the whole cold number shit. then everyone comes out of the fucking woodwork psychoanyalzing me an shit. dude, its just to get a bit more practice, and I spent all of 5 min on it.

    or sentient complaining about “hank you aren’t putting any work in. you need to be going out to those bars that don’t exist where you live and hit on those girls that don’t exit where you live.”

    it gets old fast.

    so now I am dealing with all the bullshit to move, have my heath just tank so I can’t sleep and am in contstant pain, and then after a fruitless trip looking around the city and 20+ hours online looking for a place, I can’t find any that I can afford. Unless something pops up soon or I can get an extension on when I start, I won’t be able to accept that job.

    So whoooo, yeah, get to wait another 6 fucking months to have another shot at a job.

    I just came on here real quick to do some light hearted comments to take a break from all this shit, and scray pulls all this bulshit to. No one asked you to talk about all this shit, we were fine just shooting the shit. 100% scray starting shit.

    Seriously, scray go fuck yourself.

  20. @hank
    “I can’t find any that I can afford”

    Can you do a roommate situation, at least until you can save up for a better place?

    Type “RSD LAIR (your city name)” into Google if you have no other options, you might be able to find a PUA who needs a roommate or can hook up a fellow newbie PUA with a place. A lot of us understand the crazy sacrifices we make to get to better cities to game in lol

    Plan out how you can ask for an extension incase it comes to that, same as you’d plan out any other routine (put yourself inside their head, try to relate to them and relate your situation to them in a way where they’d understand, etc) VS just winging it.

  21. @hank
    Also try the RooshV Forum. Someone there might have a place or be connected and able to help you get a place. Use a different account name for all of this so no one can link “hank” to the guy asking for help in X City lol plus they all probably hate me so don’t mention me lol

    Sedfast forum guys are good dudes but I don’t know where you could post on there to ask for help, they don’t have a forum for travel/cities/meetups/etc

  22. Hank

    Might need to change that tampon tonighy sweetie…

    Hey check out the end of the Madison video Ya posted…hmmmm what does he say about doing the work? Do you need a transcript?

    Lol.

  23. “Now, granted, this article presumes men’s adulthood ought to be measured by his capacity to get involved with a woman, support a family and maintain a steady job. ”

    Funny how am man’s laying video games is refusing to grow up; but a woman’s nightclubbing and relationship dramas are celebrated with “You go girl!”-ism.

  24. Some good points here to comment on.

    I realize I don’t have any guy friends I can trust either. Weird. I hadn’t thought of that until it came up.

    I have one acquaintance who is Red Pill but is such a pussy hound he bangs anything and everything to the point I wouldn’t trust him around any girl I was gaming.

    Other guy friends I have are Blue Pill–they see the idea of neo-masculinity as “chauvinistic”. They’re the Tom Hanks “nice guy” types. Saw a video of him talking about how Trump’s “locker room talk” was actually something he said while “working” and “it’s wrong…I find it offensive as a guy”. Suddenly gaming girls is seen as creepy because Tom Hanks wouldn’t do that.

    But one story to share about Always Be Gaming….I’m on public transport the other day coming home from work. A cute girl walks by I look at her…she looks at me and smiles. Her eyes light up. “Hi” I say… She says hi back. Then I second guess myself…am I gaming this girl or do I know her? She comes over and I ask “Do we know each other?” She’s smiling and laughing thinking I’m still gaming her. She says no, you smiled so I thought…. Then I get my game back….I sit her down, she’s babbling away, all excited, touching me, eyes lighting up.

    I couldn’t tell her age…might be over 30 but she was cute enough and living on her own. Number close, text back a short time later. She can’t meet then starts giving me her schedule of when she’s free. We’re set to meet up next week.

    I thought back on how many of these situations I just let slide because I was in my own head…too worried about what she might think of me if I suggest drinks or number close.

    You can’t let setbacks define you. The Red Pill is a behavioural and mindset shift away from that Tom Hanks “aw shucks…that’s just not right” to “just do it”.

    The problem now is that no matter what you do you’ll be judged so Blue Pill guys end up second-guessing themselves and worrying about outcomes.

    It’s all becoming clear to me and each of these little game moments provides an insight into a new possibility.

  25. @Hank

    You could always see if there’s a 24/7 gym around live in your car take showers and stuff there. Do the dirty

    Honestly anythings better than living in a place you hate.

    You’ll work it out somehow

  26. Late to the party, still gotta catch up on comments…

    Hank, even if you had 100% of the manosphere agree that Sarah Jessica Parker is a HB 5.438592846472… its still, and always will be, SUBjective. The only OBjective reality is the SMP.

    Like it or hate it, the rest is mental masturbation and accomplishes nothing.

  27. “If you want to teach some one something, you probably shouldn’t treat them like an idiot. Then they just think you are an ass and should go fuck yourself.”

    Quick game: who said the above, Mitch or Hank?
    Lol love you man, but he was pretty calm and logical the whole time…

  28. @ YaReally

    “And he knows how SHE probably views herself on the 1-10 scale, and can narrow that down more accurately from interacting with her, so he games her based on THAT, not based on what he thinks she is”

    “I just always assume that while I’m obviously a 10 (lol), by DEFAULT I have zero value. I’ll HAVE 10 value to ALL of them, when I can DHV enough in front of them to HAVE that value”

    Golden advice right there.

    Now that I think of it, it’s very similar to performing music. The average person might be impressed for 1 or (maybe) 2 minutes of shredding on guitar, or very skilled playing in general. But it doesn’t mean shit to most people. When you are out playing, you are primarily an ENTERTAINER. Freddie Mercury was an absolute monster of a frontman and you can bet Queen’s success had a lot to do with that.

    Or check out EVH from this show. Even calling him “EVH” is like saying “Hendrix.” The guy’s name is a fucking acronym now. A household name. So obviously he already had what you could call pre-selection and social proof, because, well, Van Halen is really famous. So people are already going in with high expectations because they have a PRECONCEIVED NOTION of HIGH VALUE.

    But, on the other hand, look at the value he is providing as an entertainer *before he even starts playing.*

    The little gestures, the cocky smiling, the blowing smoke rings, putting the cigarette under the strings behind the nut of the guitar, then letting notes sustain while he pulls the cigarette out and takes a drag on it before putting it back.

    He isn’t just sitting there playing. There are guys that are phenomenally talented on guitar but are not entertaining to watch, and it’s no coincidence they don’t go over as well as less skilled players who are more entertaining.

    Now, we could split hairs over this. Hendrix was a hell of an entertainer but during some of his last shows he hardly moved at all. During his iconic performance of Machine Gun I don’t think he even moved a single inch from where he started. Just stood completely in place. But he was Jimi Hendrix. He could’ve shown up with a box of Kleenex and a rubber band and it would’ve gone over.

    You also can’t move around freely sitting on a stool with an acoustic guitar over your knee like you can on your feet with an electric guitar strapped around your body, and there are plenty of sit-down acoustic guitar performers that go over huge.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oSz8Xip_ho

    They call it “working the crowd” for a reason. In effect you could say you’re “Gaming” the crowd. There’s a reason there are pyrotechnics and strobe lights and fog machines and headbanging and all other kinds of shit people do.

    People are going for the FEELZ. You go to see people perform because you want to get PUMPED. Or if you’re a person going to something like a classical concert, you’re still going for the feelz. You are going to have a certain atmosphere crafted and created and sustained for you by the musicians running the show. An atmosphere that makes you feel a certain way.

    I don’t think out of the million times I’ve watched Hendrix play Voodoo Child or Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock I’ve ever NOT had an emotional reaction to it.

    A LOT of guys focus on playing as technically as possible, and say they need to work on their music theory, etc. a lot more. Does it help? Yes. But only insofar as it can complement the value you’re bringing to the audience otherwise.

    You can be very good, but if you don’t make an impact on the audience, people will just think “Wow, that guy was really fucking good” and then forget about it by the time the next act is on stage.

    In reality, the most effective way to boost your performing skills would be to Game the audience. To go up assuming you have ZERO value, but that by the end of your set, you will have a LOT of value after DHVing through your music and how you work the audience.

    You CAN get away with just playing and people being impressed. I’ve done that before. But it’s a guaranteed bigger response when you get the audience going, whatever way you do that. I’ve had socially anxious nights I went up and played and didn’t say shit. People were impressed but it never went over as good as the times I went up and made jokes or got the audience engaged and made them feel like they were a part of the set.

    For example, one night I opened with a song I didn’t have completely down. I botched the hell out of it. I just took a comedic pause, and then instead of panicking I just smiled, took the mic and said “Boy, did I fuck that up.” And then in the middle of people laughing their ass off I started into a different song I knew I could nail every time, and it went over great in the end.

    It’s even an awesome memory for ME. Like *I* myself got something out of providing that value to the audience. It’s a good memory because it was an emotional exchange, an interaction, vs. me just going up on stage and basically jacking off while everyone watches and then walking off. I could’ve freaked out and made the situation really awkward, but I just felt cocky and laid back that night, and it DIDN’T MATTER that I fucked up. I took the “fuck up” and turned it into something memorable.

    I’m just extrapolating this for example’s sake. I haven’t played out in a long time but I did play out enough years ago to see how making the audience laugh and engaging them in a show can make your performance go over huge even if your playing isn’t “up to par,” and you can impress people with good playing without being entertaining, but it never goes over as big.

    I’ve been out and seen guys play that were VERY good technically but didn’t get a tremendous response because they just stood there and didn’t move, and didn’t do ANYTHING between songs to talk to or engage the audience in any way.

    You can use a killer ability to play, and mastery over your instrument, to your advantage. Just like you can use looks and money and all that other shit to your advantage. But at the end of the day the main thing is the emotional impact. People will remember shit that they feel affected them personally.

    There’s a reason people say some song is “MY song” or “That’s my jam, dude”…it’s personal.

  29. @Walawala

    “I realize I don’t have any guy friends I can trust either. Weird. I hadn’t thought of that until it came up.”

    It is a Thing.

    I came about it as a by product of my pursuits. It became my redemption and salvation from Betatization. Guys getting together with guys are a bulwark against the FI. (Witness Trump in isolation, trying to battle the FI, with no other guy supporters, no other political establishment guy friends, going it alone. How does that make him and you feel? To not sit down every other week and be validated, or have some other red pill guy saying you are proceeding wrongly or correctly? Having some other guy be actually able to get you to own your shit. To stop floating, but actually be pursuing. To shit test you into actually doing what you need to do.)

    Same thing here on TRM. To actually have guys pushing other guys into action, rather than be passive in their goals of sexual strategy. There is massive distrust in a tribe for guys that actually don’t contribute to the goal. ScribblerG is a prime example of a guy that pushes for action in other guys. It works. KFG is an enigma but he pushes guys. Blaximus is a guy that cannot be possibly recognized for his actions here, because of the passivity of his targets. But that guy is a dynamo of testosterone that pushes against the fear of men to not fear life. Observe how he acts in real life, not what he says.

    Try to observe other guys as you go about your business. In your normal every day going about your business scenario you are totally focused on observing and gaming women.

    But guys are people too. I didn’t think to actually care about a tribe of men and I backed into a group of guys five or six years ago (no homo) as the buy product of my pursuits. And I pursued the relationship with guys in parallel with them in that pursuit, as opposed to in series with them.

    When you are out and about, look for a foot in the door. Like Sun Wukong’s bartender guy that he thought might be a foot in the door to the social scene.

    Watch, look and be ready to pounce softly into red pill guys. Whether the relationship with other guys ends up being mentor or mentee or buddies, go about softly pursuing it.

    I never had so much success in female Game as when I had un-adulterated relationships with men in an unfiltered manner. Able to actually say and do masculine stuff. No filters. Using blunt language. Shit testing them and parrying their shit tests.

    Mind you, we are talking learning masculine unfiltered life. Not living a natural masculine learned behavior from teenage years. I’m a huge student of learning and just want to give you a heads up on a super valuable tool. Having a tribe. Something that Blax and Rollo have by default that propels their masculinity from baseline to infinite. Something that can propel guys like you and me from a deficit to well above average performance in sexual strategy.

    So keep an eye out for guys that are red pill and guys that are successful at being men unfiltered in life. Guys that are not shackled by the FI.

    Walawala, your red pill guy would be an AMOG but they are people too, and The Art of AMOG essay by Rollo would be a good thing to re-read for practical advice on that.

    But seriously think about getting a gang.

    Or a mentor or being a mentor. Even if it just 20 minutes of mentoring a potential wing at a gig you are doing. Everything matters.

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/01/18/a-teachable-moment/comment-page-3/#comment-136711

  30. Forgot this link in the last post:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOFIttS69I

    @ scrib

    As far as field reports:

    I’m lost on how to sexually escalate in-person, which is obviously where you actually get laid.

    Text gamed this girl for a while. She invites me over to her place to watch TV. Her mom is there, which throws me off when I show up. I immediately go into chode mode after I sit down next to the girl by asking her and her mom shit like “What do you like about this show?” or “How long have you been watching this?”

    Like default mode, conflict avoidant, don’t step on anyone’s toes, etc. I was making jokes here and there but I was my usual polite self and didn’t say anything too offensive. Hate that habit of mine. I did consciously try to break it but all I could think was to make jokes about what we were watching — I wouldn’t dare say anything to either of them that I thought would make them feel uncomfortable or like I was taking a shot at them.

    (I also do this with ALL my friends, btw, this isn’t exclusive to women, so advice like “talk to them like you talk to your friends” will just go right over my head because I go WAY out of my way to not say ANYTHING to any of my friends that I feel might make them uncomfortable or would cause any degree of conflict, even if the conflict is “playful”)

    …anyway, her mom eventually left, and we ended up shooting the shit for a couple hours. Like a COUPLE HOURS where I probably had multiple ins to escalate sexually, and based on her telling me all these other guys she was with, she was probably expecting me to go to her room with her and fuck her or something.

    I had no idea how to escalate. I got thrown off by things like me sitting next to her on the couch, then when she got up to get some water and went to sit back down, she sat down on the other couch across from me. At that point I knew I was drowning, and while nothing was “obviously” awful….it wasn’t going anywhere, and like, she invited me over her house, I’d sexually escalated previously, she’d said like a couple weeks ago if she had a modern phone she would’ve sent me pictures of her pussy.

    But I go over and just go into complete polite, non-assertive chode mode, didn’t touch her ONCE the whole night, didn’t even try to — just kept my distance and stayed polite and we just talked about random shit.

    I am WAY out in the weeds when it comes to escalating in person. Like how to get from point A to point B. My default is just to keep my hands to myself, not neg ANYTHING about ANYONE EVER (like I said earlier I can’t do this with my friends and to my recollection never have in my life)…..and I just froze.

    Felt even worse because over text I was coming off as Mr. Player, like really cocky and confident and being OVERTLY sexual, which she was actually responding to OFTEN, and then we actually meet up, and I’m like fucking George Castanza or something.

    And then when I was leaving I awkwardly waved goodbye to her and then tripped over a bush. I was disoriented from tripping over the bush so I just kind of held my hand in the air and looked at her and froze in that position out of awkwardness until she shut the door.

    Then when I got home I just popped a bunch of pills and passed out while this was playing in my head:

  31. @all @yareally @blax @sentient @marriage guys

    Comments here are turning into a shitstorm.

    Firstly, I think we should drop the marriage discussion. Pretty much everything that can be said has already been said. All that happens is the usual suspects (yareally, blax, sentient) argue, say the same things, solve nothing, and end up eating up a bunch of space to no end.

    So I think we should just call a truce for the foreseeable future and stop discussing it — or at least arguing over it. A point here or there, but no 5 page essays anymore.

    If you have to post something, just pick your best comments and make a link or whatever to them so you can have a pro-marriage link and a anti-marriage link. Post the two, then move on.

    @sentient @scray

    Lets just make this easy and from now on just stop commenting on my posts, I won’t comment on yours at all.

    That will also take a big chunk out of the pointless arguments here.

    @yareally @mersonia

    Scrounged up about 20 more apartments so I will see about them tomorrow

    Living in a car isn’t really an option. First month or two is going to be rough enough as it is, until I can get insurance set up and work things out with a doctor. Like I said though I’ve found some more options so we’ll see how that goes.

  32. @scray,

    How long have you been fasting 20 hours a day while being a lifter? Frankly, I don’t see how that is effective at all. I don’t buy the long term, daily HGH spikes from fasting. My guess is that it happens initially but then the body acclimates and tempers the response, eventually even having lower than average HGT/T levels due to the overall starvation mode it’s being put into everyday. I’ve read Mangan’s website and it’s cool. If my lifestyle/work schedule/kitchen allowed it then I would experiment with a 14-16 hour daily fast. (Dinner at 6, no evening snack, then breakfast at 8-10. I guess I would try breakfast at 8, lunch at 1 and dinner at 6. All huge meals. Even Mangan only fasts 16 hours. I don’t think he espouses powerlifting easier. He seems to stick with a bro-workout.

    But give us some rundown of your life as a daily 20 hour faster who lifts. If you get 3000cal in a four hour window then you must walk away from the john feeling like it was ‘a rough night in the holding tank’ also 3000k in four hours would be a massive insulin spike>fat storage>skinny fat body over time.

    Deets.

  33. @hank

    Comments here are turning into a shitstorm.

    Aaaaand this is why I was always rather reserved when others would comment that TRM was a cut above the rest of TRP community. Whether this shit will be worked through or we’ll just devolve in to a permanent shit show I’m not certain. Bottom line though is that every community has its messy period eventually. Question is whether everyone can get over being a bunch of faggots or if they’ll let it rip things apart.

    Only time (and a bypassing a bunch of faggoty passive aggressive jabs at the other side) will tell.

  34. Feminism is overhead on civilization. The prosperity Hollenhund refers to is national, while Nova is referring to more personal or perhaps family prosperity.

    Yes, that’s what I meant.

  35. Good Morning. Noticed this but I appreciate the chance to share this:

    Gifts to female employees and our romantic gifts to women are similar as they generally don’t appreciate the energy to provide it nor care where it came from. Countless times I’ve asked women in the RN lounge (I call it the whine room) where the freebie food came from. 9/10 x’s they insouciantly have no clue, and slowly push their way though another flat of doughnuts.

    They travel from satiated situation to satiated situation never really wondering why or how they are thriving. The burden of performance truly is on the shoulders of men and will not maintain female allegiance as the default expectation of women is that they will be provided for. Corporate gifts are a waste as the women’s expectation is that they are entitled to it, accept it and reserve the right to reject the goodwill attached to the gift. “Really? Just bagels? Again?”

    The ubiquity of food partially fueled by government subsidies (esp. corn) makes high calorie sugarfoods the go to reward for females here and I assume everywhere. Fem-centric food consumerism exposes the ugliest side of the unchecked feminine.

    The margarita slush machine perfectly represent the average American female: cold, boxy, high calorie, droning on and on and on.

  36. @MikePhil: On the gynocentric zeitgeist: Exactly bruv….Men cannot afford to back down on what we prefer or are attracted to. We cannot also afford not to be RP aware. Any substantive change, among men, I think will happen covertly…but it’s inevitable…whether MGTOW or RP awareness, at some point the defeatist logic of blue pill aspirations will dawn on them, just like the wall hits women….

  37. “. . . I’ve asked women . . . where the freebie food came from. 9/10 x’s they insouciantly have no clue . . .”

    I have said a countable, but substantial, number of times, that most women have no clue what it is that men actually do. Hence they can insouciantly talk about men being “obsolete.”

    An example I have used is that women think one of the reasons that “toxic masculinity” is obsolete is because wild animals no longer need to be kept from the door, totally clueless that the reason why there is no literal wolf (and lions and tigers and bears) at their door is because men still work to repel them, while women sleep.

    Although that didn’t stop my “strong, independent” neighbour, when she woke up one morning to find a bear literally at her door, from calling a bunch of men to deal with it for her.

  38. KFG

    “Although that didn’t stop my “strong, independent” neighbour, when she woke up one morning to find a bear literally at her door, from calling a bunch of men to deal with it for her.”

    Eeeeeeeeek! Spider Syndrome.

  39. @STRONGTEK

    I’m lost on how to sexually escalate in-person, which is obviously where you actually get laid.

    google search results…

    http://vincent.mucchielli.free.fr/PUA/PUA/Escalation%20Ladder.pdf

    https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/hlmra/dicarlo_escalation_ladder_concise_and_emphasized/

    (i haven’t vetted those comments, but seems legit…)

    overall generally… = if in doubt… touch her…lol…

    and if you are not ‘comfortable’ moving up to the next level, touch her somewhere else that is at the same level…

    good luck!

  40. @hank

    I brought up the chart FIRST and RELATED IT TO MY DISCUSSION FOR 2016. IN RESPONSE you guys started talking about blah blah blah the 9’s are 6’s and other shit.

    You rolled in and said:

    “We’re not here to note SMV in the present marketplace”

    when lol, THAT WAS THE EXACT STARTED DISCUSSION.

    To which I said —>

    “Lol so keyboard jockeying over shit that doesn’t reflect reality, i.e. current SMV value 2016. I don’t engage in that so I’ll leave y’all to it.”

    To which you respond —>

    “nah, all we were doing is just rating girls on an objective 1-10 scale. ”

    which, btw, makes no fucking sense, because you want to be objective — i.e. “based on facts rather than feelings or opinions” — without noting any facts about the SMP 2016 and instead relying solely on the personal feelings and opinions of dudes on a forum…like, it’s KEYBOARD JOCKEYING TO THE FUCKING MAXIMUM.

    and then I explain to you that A) I started this whole discussion, b) I explained the nuances nearly at the start of the discussion, and c) what you wanted to do was keyboard jockeying, which I have actual factual evidential support from — your own words saying you don’t want to consider 2016 SMP market value in the “objective” scale and that you didn’t want to use it for anything “but fun.”

    In response, you said a bunch of like….FI-influenced shaming shit:

    You’re like a feminist who see rape everywhere
    like an evangelical that tries to convert people to christianity by punching them in the face before telling them the good news.
    use basic social skills to not alienate people, lol,

    nah your whole vibe has been agressive the whole time and starting shit where all that’s required is to point out some subtle differences here and there.

    Or you can be crybully and call everyone who doesn’t feel like talking about the SMP 24/7 a KJ and then act surprised when everyone thinks you are an ass lol.

    It just amazing to me the supposed game gurus who don’t understand basic social conventions.

    If you want to teach some one something, you probably shouldn’t treat them like an idiot. Then they just think you are an ass and should go fuck yourself.

    translation: stop sounding so meeeaaaaaaan, you’re meeeaaaaan

    Like, stop distorting what’s happening, stop mischaracterizing what I’m saying, and stop responding with unnecessary snark.

    And then when you don’t get your way because what I’m saying is backed up and correct based on, yannow, the FIELD….you start pulling more lame FI shit, trying to get allies —>

    Like Anonymous Reader said about you:

    You just in an argumentative, “imma argue with everyone about everything”, mood or what?

    agree 100%

    then mischaracterized the situ to Ya

    yup. that’s it. all we were doing. just for fun. then scray jumps in with all this bullshit. no need for an argument at all.<

    then threw a "my life is sooooo hard" FI-style femmie tantrum:

    ow I am dealing with all the bullshit to move, have my heath just tank so I can’t sleep and am in contstant pain, and then after a fruitless trip looking around the city and 20+ hours online looking for a place, I can’t find any that I can afford. Unless something pops up soon or I can get an extension on when I start, I won’t be able to accept that job.

    So whoooo, yeah, get to wait another 6 fucking months to have another shot at a job.

    I just came on here real quick to do some light hearted comments to take a break from all this shit, and scray pulls all this bulshit to. No one asked you to talk about all this shit, we were fine just shooting the shit. 100% scray starting shit.

    Seriously, scray go fuck yourself.

    then DISTORT the situ AGAIN:

    Comments here are turning into a shitstorm.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlPSdUCcIu5yd1e/giphy.gif

    cause in this case YOU’VE created that

    and then you decide to take your ball and go home by making commands you don’t have the power to enforce at all:

    “Lets just make this easy and from now on just stop commenting on my posts, I won’t comment on yours at all.”

    Dude….

    it’s whatever at this point. I’ll comment on whatever I want to comment on, but lol, YOU COMMENTED ON MY SHIT TO START WITH. YOU EVEN RESPONDED TO A QUESTION THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED AT ME LOL like wtf.

    you seem stressed tho. get some rest. this is just internet talk

  41. @all

    is it just me or do all the more recent female singers sound really many. They all have super deep raspy voices.

  42. These last few months, dudes seem to be losing their frame a bit with other dudes here trying to “win” the discussion instead of arguing the discussion.

    It’s Friday! Good luck gentlemen!

  43. Hit a party. Saw smoking hot HB9 I had met in April and gamed then. Danced, teased her then suggested we meet up. “I’ll see….” she said genuinely surprised I suggested it. I ignored that and kept dancing and chatting.

    Later I tried the “you look like an angry cat” routine….it works. She started playing along claiming she was more of a rabbit….etc. Perfect entry point to re-connect on the number she gave me 7 months back. “Angry cat?” I texted.

    That’s it so far. I hope you guys sitting on your butts go out and just start doing something…game girls for the fun of it…..

    The simple routines you can spin into more but they immediately change the dynamic from some friendly banter to something very private….the negs and teasing do spike a surprise.

    The asking her for dinner after she said she loved trying new dishes…was like that look dogs make when they hear a dog whistle….it was “OH??!!!!”

    Good luck dudes.

  44. @AR

    Latest Hollywood trend – “scrotox” for an improved visual effect.

    from the link…

    Beverly Hills-based surgeon Jason Emer performs the procedure a few times a week and links its rise in popularity to the booming women’s genital plastic surgery market.

    Andrew Ordon, board-certified plastic surgeon and Emmy-nominated co-host of The Doctors, agrees. “This year there was a huge trend in vaginal rejuvenation,” says Ordon, who also is an assistant clinical professor of plastic surgery at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA.

    you know the SMP is getting tougher when guys think they need artificially bigger balls to compete in the slut epidemic…lol…

    “no baby, that was REALLY just vasalgel… don’t they look huge?…”

    lol…

    good luck!

  45. @Habd @AR

    well its interesting you point out the scrotox stuff

    animals that have a lot of sexual competition have bigger balls.

    compare chimps to bonobos…bonobos pretty much just have sex all the time lol, so they have huge balls compared to the chimps. interesting how all this is playing out.

    In fact, comparing our society to bonobo culture has a lot of similarities. I think jack donovan talked about this somewhere…

  46. @kaminsky

    How long have you been fasting 20 hours a day while being a lifter? Frankly, I don’t see how that is effective at all

    Idk, maybe a year or so.

    It’s awesome!

    Idk why you don’t see how it’s effective.

    We can agree that the 16:8 fasting produces lean muscle gains and fat loss, so you’re just saying that 4 extra hours somehow harms that.
    http://translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12967-016-1044-0

    I don’t buy the long term, daily HGH spikes from fasting. My guess is that it happens initially but then the body acclimates and tempers the response, eventually even having lower than average HGT/T levels due to the overall starvation mode it’s being put into everyday

    Your body isn’t put into “starvation mode,” even with a 20 hr fast. It takes around 5 days of fasting for your body to start slowing its metabolism, so.

    And the HGH spikes have been clinically documented — 2000% increase at 5 days, and somewhere between 200-300% after one day. You “guessing” this is “temporary” is interesting, especially because it isn’t backed up by anything. And your reason for this guess is just false (starvation mode).

    But give us some rundown of your life as a daily 20 hour faster who lifts. If you get 3000cal in a four hour window then you must walk away from the john feeling like it was ‘a rough night in the holding tank’ also 3000k in four hours would be a massive insulin spike>fat storage>skinny fat body over time.

    You don’t need nearly that many calories, even to gain muscle, so lol.
    You can eat maintenance + macros + exercise = gain muscle and lose fat = recomp.

    People whine about how it’s ‘so slow’ because they don’t understand that lol after 2 years, your rate of muscle growth will just be freaking way slow compared to your rate of fat loss.

    However, the 3000 kcals in a short amount of time wouldn’t be a skinny-fat body over time because you’re going 20 hours WITHOUT FOOD, so your body won’t be so quick to store carbs as fat.

    Go look at leangains….look at the results.

    My life as a lifter is great. Get 1800-2000 kcals between 12pm-2pm/6pm. Fasts range 18-21 hrs…

  47. @HABD & all

    (i haven’t vetted those comments, but seems legit…)

    Yeah, basically good stuff in that escalation ladder. Men need to pay special attention to the ramp section, especially…

    “Do not start ramp with intention to finish later.”

    Women will feel that they were being led on and may experience Buyer’s Remorse. This is true even in marriage, not so surprisingly.

    My college gf may have broken up with me in part because she felt like I was leading her on. I was naïve in thinking that women are satisfied with just being fingered. They want the dick. I think that it’s an emotional need somehow connected with the possibility of becoming pregnant.

    Let me repeat…

    Men need to pay special attention to the ramp section, especially.

    AND

    “Do not start ramp with intention to finish later.”

    Even isolating with a girl and not escalating to at least a kiss may cause them to feel like you were leading them on. Ask me how I know, lol.

  48. Hypergamy weighs in on testicle size too.

    Apparently, small testicles are a tell of better parenting. Notice how the article prechews that we want small-testicled beta providers. Isn’t that what all women want?

    From multiple sources:

    “It might be more challenging for some men to do these kinds of caregiving activities, but that by no means excuses them,” said Dr Rilling, who led the study published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

    Men who are good fathers are more likely to have children who grow up to be happy and well-balanced adults, which is why it is important to analyse the reasons why some men make good parents, Dr Rilling said.

    “It’s an important question because previous studies have shown that children with more involved fathers have better social, psychological and educational outcomes,” he explained.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-smaller-the-better-size-of-a-mans-testicles-is-linked-to-his-parenting-skills-8805576.html

  49. “Some research has shown that boys who experience childhood stress shift their life strategies. Or perhaps fatherless boys react to the absence of their father by adopting a strategy emphasizing mating effort at the expense of parenting effort,” Dr Rilling said.

    Moral: Stress build character and game.

  50. Notice how the article prechews that we want small-testicled beta providers. Isn’t that what all women want?

    For parenting, sure.

    Not for siring, however. AF/BB.

  51. “People whine about how it’s ‘so slow’ because they don’t understand that lol after 2 years, your rate of muscle growth will just be freaking way slow compared to your rate of fat loss.”

    Mike Menzter once did a slow recomp and compared the results to his bulk and cut, over the same time period.

    Both methods came out within a pound of each other.

    Body builders are psychologically attached to getting “fucking huuuuuge” in a hurry, but ignore that they then have to spend months losing most of it back again. It’s silly.

  52. “but your honor… i really SHOULD get full custody… look how small my balls are!…”

    lol…

    good luck!

  53. newlyaloof

    Lots of service girls are already wearing cat ears by me… easiest open ever thanks to Trump…

    “So… You’re not afraid of being grabbed then…. huh?”

  54. Scray, thanks for doing all the work to find pretty gifs for our entertainment. I’m sure it was a very satisfying and creative task for you to complete. There’s no doubt that you are indeed a legend in your own mind. But arguing with yourself doesn’t do much to keep up that “legend” image. Pay closer attention in the future. Okay? Okay!

    @hank holiday
    Don’t just look for apts. Even a cheaper motel room with a kitchenette is still better than where you are now.

    YaReally’s advice on roomate options is worth following, you don’t have to marry someone, just get digs for a a few months. If there’s a college zone in that town, look to move in as roomy to some students. Yeah, it would stink in some ways but they would be casual in other ways.

    Also look into house sitting gigs, if need be you can put your stuff in a storage room someplace to keep it separate.

    Don’t get locked into “either this or that”, try to solve the problem “place to stay for this job in this town”, not “must have apartment or fail”.

  55. Othergrain

    P D Mangan, a big favorite over at CH, is big on the effects of iron. Check out:

    Thanks for the pointer, been reading him for a while but came to the news about iron -> bad for men via other research. Every man over 30 should be reading Mangan and paying attention to their iron levels. He has some good links on high intensity exercise that I need to read.

    One of Mangan’s most recent postings has some references that draw a possible causal line between too much iron & dementia. Although I have other sources that point to dementia as akin to “diabetes of the brain”, so the question remains open.

    BUT
    FWIW it looks pretty solid that tumors need iron to grow. Keeping both stored and circulating iron low should starve tumors or at least keep their growth slow. I need a few more cites before pestering the one intelligent urologist I know.

  56. This is off the post subject but relates to some of the comments.

    https://www.wired.com/2016/06/civis-election-polling-clinton-sanders-trump/

    This article was very well worth reading. A few things that become blatantly self evident from reading it are as follows. The very well educated, socioeconomic elite and intellectual elite jointly strive for and continue to gain more control of the political process including strategy and polling. Poll results are reviewed by a select few before being released to the public. The entire process is being analyzed by extremely intelligent, highly educated analytical individuals including social scientists, political scientists, psychologists, physicists and mathematicians. Politicians and the socioeconomic elite are hiring these cream of the crop analysts not only for their analytical skills but also for strategic consultation concerning political strategy and the application of information including how poll numbers should be applied and presented to the voters who are by far mostly proletariat. Supply and demand of these talents and skills selects and continually up optimizes the very best in the business as in all capalistic markets. The polling process itself is part of political strategy and its results define popularity. Popularity encourages popular vote. Most people want to fit in with the larger group and respect popularity over principals especially if they are not experienced or educated to understand the principals and how they will really be affected by the application of specific principals.

    The media is heavily controlled by members of the socioeconomic elite (and Trump is one) who reside primarily in the superzips among elite judiciary, politicians, and industry leaders. All presstitutes, theatrical pimps and whores are very thoroughly conditioned, presorted, highly trained and practiced in the arts of lying, framing and distorting context of literally every “news cast”, debate question, data report, social issue, etc. Any presstitute, entertainment pimp or political whore who fails to strictly adhere to the agenda defined by extremely narrow guidelines is immediately shamed aka Matt Lauer or fired aka Billy Bush.

    I am not suggesting there is some grand conspiracy, however there is certainly consensus and collusion among the elite as normally occurs instinctively within human tribes and groups. Trumps and Clintons history of deals between themselves and their long term personal relationship is testament that they far more closely relate to and appreciate each other than either relates to or appreciates the proletariat. Each of their personal histories blatantly and unequivocally prove this fact. Yet they each theatrically and publicly feign empathy for the American proletariat while accusing each other of the opposite and simultaneously instigating and inflaming divisiveness between American proletariat subcultures. They are simply employing the most common electoral strategy proven to succeed throughout the history of “democratic” societies.

    Considering the subject of the article from a realistic applicable and operative perspective it is blatantly clear that the controlling elite are spending extensive resources and money perusing to know voter beliefs preferences and attitudes, and in real time. They must rely on nerdy egg heads to do the dirty work because they do not care to get to know their proletariat neighbors who support them with daily toil and votes. The ruling class is focusing on learning and influencing public opinion as specifically as possible in order to optimize their ability to deliver feigned promises often after psychologically instilling the need for those promises. Their whole objective is a three prong attack against the working class that supports them.

    1. Instill and maintain divisiveness between subgroups so the groups are distracted by contention between themselves and do not coalesce by awareness into a unified power with the understanding and ability to steer their own destiny.

    2. Pander to whatever grievances the proletariat has while simultaneously fabricating threats and feigned injustices in order to maximize the grievances.

    3. Role play and theatrically portray multiple candidates from the elite class feigning as heroes and heroines who claim to resolve grievances and divisions.

    The article details how this effort is being approached from the most scientific, academic and sociopathic methods ever applied. This is fraud on steroids; the most massive, premeditated, complex, sophisticated, high tech, engineered con job ever devised.

    This is how the compulsion of tyranny usurps and undermines any possibility of true democracy. The “American Experiment” born out of “enlightenment” is an extremely fragile endeavor at best. It may endure, but only with its extreme fragility. I believe the experiment will only prove the fragility of itself and it is almost finished.

  57. @Anon reader

    There’s no doubt that you are indeed a legend in your own mind.

    And an object of awe in yours.

    But arguing with yourself doesn’t do much to keep up that “legend” image. Pay closer attention in the future. Okay? Okay!

    Oh is that what you call quoting your words? Lol…I guess you love me so much you want to be a figment of my imagination. Thanks bro.

  58. @kaminsky

    You were pretty clear that it’s a ‘hypothetical’ that alphas will clean women up so I’m guessing you don’t think it’s so. I don’t see alphas changing much. They are off and running with the male imperative of nearly unlimited, varied sexual partners. They are the last ones to seek change because the new game plays into their imperative more than anyone else

    One somewhat interesting, although probably still marginal development I’m seeing is that a growing number of older, middle-aged alphas seem to be disgusted by the current cultural landscape and social degeneracy. They’ve always attracted women and had their fill of youthful casual sex to some extent, but they believe the sexual revolution has gone too far, so to speak. At the end of the day, they’re just men as well, and as such, they are naturally attracted to slender, pretty, curvy, psychologically sound, pleasant young women, and they recognize that a feminist, leftist society basically makes such women disappear by eroding the human quality of the average woman. Many of these alphas are old-school patriots, and they don’t appreciate the culture war waged against the patriarchal traditions of the nation, her institutions and her armed forces.

  59. @Novaseeker

    Porn, and its ubiquity, feeds into this and amplifies it, without question. On the one hand guys are getting zoned, while on the other, they have strong drives due to testosterone. Porn is the outlet, and it sates the drive just enough to enable men to neuter their sexual response in de-sexed zones on a maintenance, on-going basis — it takes enough of the edge off of the sex drive such that these guys are able to obey the FI zoning more easily.

    Porn is only a symptom. To the extent that male porn addiction actually exists, it can be a social issue only because large numbers of young single men are living alone and have plenty of freetime due to their own economic marginalization. This is unprecedented in history. Young single men have traditionally lived in tight-knit, male-only communities – the army, the company workforce, clubs etc. – with clearly defined goals and roles. And in a few years, they were supposed to get married anyway. So they were kept busy, and had little privacy. When that system is dismantled, you’ll see pathologies like widepspread porn use. But if these men weren’t fapping to porn, they’d be doing something else that is equally alien to the economically productive patriarchal man.

  60. Re: The ShitStorm in the comments section – I’m never one for “can’t we all just get along” shit, as argument can be constructive. But what I’m seeing here more and more is unproductive argument that resolves nothing.

    I do notice a trend though. Scray and YaReally are often right, and are taken on by men here in picayune ways that don’t seem to be worthwhile. Just look at Scray here commenting on SMV scales, he basically offered this:

    ‘I’ve noticed many men in the manosphere have a warped sense of their own or women’s SMV and while personally there is no direct harm in that, when one is gaming this will mess up your approach. It’s very important to know where you and an HB stand in other’s view, not your own. How does she see your SMV? Her SMV? How does that scene see you and her?’

    Or something to that effect. Non controversial and the responses indicate indeed some guys are suffering from this distorted view. Scray made a good contribution to the discussion, but yet again, we have a fucking food fight going here.

    I’m not going to try and tell anyone to stop or start anything, but it’s true that this turns people off and damages our standing as a place where a different kind of dialog takes place. And I get it, I’m the first guy to dish some hard news, but if you look you’ll see I rarely engage in long-running disagreements at all. It’s been a long time since I did that here. It’s unproductive for me, so I stopped. I guess I’d ask people here to ask if they are making a contribution to the community or just KJing to defend their egos? We are all susceptible to getting caught up, but there are also folks who are often in the mix.

  61. @Scray

    “We can agree that the 16:8 fasting produces lean muscle gains and fat loss, so you’re just saying that 4 extra hours somehow harms that.”

    Yeah, because 16 hours would be at an extreme end. Another fours goes to 20 which only allows four hours a day to eat 3000 calories minimum. Silly. That 3000 calories would pass like a cannonball too so now you’ve got colon issues to worry about. And a guy needs that kind of calories if he is really lifting and not just a frat-bro lifter type trying to add some cool looking strips of meat to his forearms or ‘carve up’ his delts or something cosmetic like that.

    I can guess that the awesome HGH spikes following five day fasts would be in the initial phases only and not long lasting due to pure logic. That’s glandular activity. It won’t last forever on less and less fuel. The body won’t continue to overproduce a hormone as it continues to be worn down. Logic tells me that. Adrenaline, dopamine, testosterone. The stuff won’t just keep squirting out as your health wanes. It will at first until the response to stress is tempered.

    The 16-8 is hardly fasting anyway. That’s really just ‘not eating in the evening before bed’ while nudging breakfast back an hour or two. A lot of people do that without knowing they are part of a bandwagon trend. My fasting experiment will be a 12-16 hour fast. The 16’s will be one on the weekend and maybe a 4 o’clock Sunday dinner. Sounds okay to me.

    Your daily 21 hour fasts for a year with only 1800 calories a day while lifting is a duuuuubious claim, frankly. Really? Sounds like a catabolic hell zone unless you’re 4’8″ or something. What kind of lifting do you do? Frat-bro forearm carving or real lifting (the kind where you actually get stronger). How much do you weigh?

  62. @Hollenhund,

    Young, breast-baring SJW assholes really have done the impossible: made me pissed off at breasts. I get what you’re saying. Empowered millenial idiots have completely removed mystique from the female form and the internet flesh parade has contributed greatly too. This is without even filtering it through the culture war either, (which only makes it worse once you do)

    I was at a beach party weekend style getaway about 6 weeks ago in Asia. A young, blond American girl was there who was very, very reminiscent of Kate Upton, especially body-wise. Tall with amazing 38E’s or so. Physical freak. She was tan, hazel-eyed. An absolute specimen…but she acted like such a stupid asshole that she was just annoying. She steered half the conversations to her jugs and if that sounds kind of hot and teasy–it wasn’t. It had nothing to that effect. It was stupid. I do enjoy a skilled teaser but it wasn’t this female frat-bro. Yeah, yeah anyone would follow her into her cabin if she called but she was an asshole. It was what I had noticed years ago; modern women act how men would act if they had tits. The flashing, the cockiness, the flaunting, the openness. If guys had tits they would be all “Fuck yeah, bro! Check out my dollars!” That’s how women are now. No feminine dignity. Young females have a very male sexuality these days. I like coy Asians even moreso. Feminine humility with a dash of sexual pride is ten times better than tit flashing, twerking drunk asshole millenials. Oh, twerking! I hate that disgusting baboon-minded approach to sexuality. Twerking says it all. It’s insanely over the top. Nude women in pop culture can sometimes be….laughable. Who would have predicted that twenty years ago?

    The openness, the constant ‘free the nipple’ ‘slut walks’. It kills their sexual mystique.

    All the models on Instagram just standing there with their thongs and their butts out. It’s stupid. “Look at my butt. It’s my butt, isn’t it? I’m standing here and my butt is here too.” No mystique. Kim K’s ass on that magazine cover was the shark jump for me.

  63. “That 3000 calories would pass like a cannonball . . .”

    That 3000 Calories passes as CO2 in your breath. The only thing you put in your mouth that passes your colon is 0 Calories. Why are you eating a cannonball of indigestibles?

    And in fact most of what passes you didn’t even put in your mouth, although the more indigetibles you put in your mouth, the more that you didn’t put in your mouth passes. You are, by cell count, only 10% “you” and the other 90% makes up several pounds of your weight. It is that “other” that passes. That other lives on the indigestibles, so the more of them you eat, the more of the other you need to get rid of.

    50 years ago bodybuilders had no clue what their hormones were doing, and yet produced the greatest semi-natural physiques ever (steroids were being used, but rather crudely). That stuff is of interest to the lab boys, but almost useless knowledge in the gym. You spend a third of your day running completely autonomically. Not eating, not exercising, essentially not even moving, while your body “decides for itself” how it is going to handle life. As a consequence, only 24 hour averages really matter.

    The whole catabolic-anabolic model is nonsense. You are always catabolic and anabolic. What changes is which has the edge, and that can change numerous times throughout the day and is different in different tissues. Only the 24 hour average matters, the balancing act happening while you sleep.

    Lifting itself is catabolic, so if the standard bro model were correct, lifting a weight would put you on a downward slide, rather than an upward one.

    But partitioning happens.

  64. Well okay. I just thought trying to knock down three full meals in four hours then going 21 hours without eating seems uncomfortable and silly. Nudge bandwagon health trends just a bit farther along and you’re in Emperor’s New Clothes territory before you know it.

  65. “Nudge bandwagon health trends just a bit farther along and you’re in Emperor’s New Clothes territory before you know it.”

    Yes, but I also know that the Now You’re Just Being Silly spectrum runs both ways and what the baseline is.

  66. @Kaminsky

    Yeah, because 16 hours would be at an extreme end. Another fours goes to 20 which only allows four hours a day to eat 3000 calories minimum. Silly.

    It’s not that hard…..and indeed, that’s why it’s easy to lose fat on this diet, because it is hard to overeat at the very least.

    And a guy needs that kind of calories if he is really lifting and not just a frat-bro lifter type trying to add some cool looking strips of meat to his forearms or ‘carve up’ his delts or something cosmetic like that.

    No he doesn’t. You can add muscle/lose fat/recomp with around maintenance calories and cycling carbs.

    I can guess that the awesome HGH spikes following five day fasts would be in the initial phases only and not long lasting due to pure logic. That’s glandular activity. It won’t last forever on less and less fuel. The body won’t continue to overproduce a hormone as it continues to be worn down. Logic tells me that.

    Tha’ts not “pure logic” that’s just your own speculation. Perhaps the body naturally produces that much in a fasted state? Perhaps that’s a continuous adaptation to the stress of fasting? Why is it less and less fuel if the calories remain the same?

    Like lol dude.

    Your daily 21 hour fasts for a year with only 1800 calories a day while lifting is a duuuuubious claim, frankly.

    Ya dude, screw the research on similar diets, right? Try it and get back to me.

    ounds like a catabolic hell zone unless you’re 4’8″ or something. What kind of lifting do you do? Frat-bro forearm carving or real lifting (the kind where you actually get stronger). How much do you weigh?

    Lol. If your first meal or second meal is post-workout there’s no need for anything to be “catabolic.” Esp if you understand carb cycling.

    I do real lifting with progressive overload. IT really isn’t hard. My weight fluctuates between 160-165 5’6 (a little under), hover between 7-10% bodyfat.

  67. “However, from a new books perspective men are, as Höllenhund illustrates, expected to know their place in respect to whatever sexual zone they find themselves in, as well as having an understanding of how they are perceived in the SMP. So, in an asexual zone such as a college campus or the workplace, men are expected to know their SMV and act or not act accordingly. Men not meeting or exceeding what would make for an optimized Hypergamy with women are expected not to initiate or approach. In fact, this expected understanding extends to sexual zones and fosters the avoidance Höllenhund talks about here.”
    https://soundcloud.com/user-806952833/the-saad-truth-83-sex-differences-when-sharing-money
    “Our feminine-primary social mandate still promotes the expectation that men will prepare for, and initiate with, women.”
    https://soundcloud.com/user-806952833/the-saad-truth-77-lets-talk-about-sex-my-chat-with-geoffrey-miller
    “Recently there’s been a spate of articles all attempting to explain why millennials aren’t getting after it in an age when it’s never been easier to hook up. Try as they will, nearly all of the explanations fail to account for how sexual zoning has affected the sexual marketplace today. Millennials have the ‘hook up generation’ reputation, but statistically they’re not doing much fucking.”
    https://soundcloud.com/user-806952833/the-saad-truth-46-toy-preferences-nature-or-nurture
    “The drop out generation are content with their lot in life because they’ve accepted the realities of a social order that debases men and manhood to being appliances to better serve women’s imperatives. And the risks of investing themselves in a relationship or finding the inner will to become better men for the sake of “growing up” are significant when the rules of engagement and the acceptable sexual zones are constantly changing.”

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