Sexual Zoning

sex_zone

Höllenhund brought up an interesting thought a few weeks ago:

This reminds me of something I wanted to ask here in general. The general narrative about MGTOW in the ‘sphere is that they are “avoiding women”. A more general narrative pushed in the mainstream media by Zimbardo, Hymowitz, Milo and other blue/purple pill journalists is that a growing number of young men are avoiding women.

What does “avoiding women” precisely mean in the current socio-cultural context in the West? The word “avoid” entails some sort of active, deliberate, protective measure. My problem with that is that the “avoidance of women”, or a breakaway from women doesn’t look like that at all in practice today, because the social context of male-female interaction has changed completely in the last 2-3 decades.

This is something our pal Novaseeker has described before. In the bygone Western social system, young people were expected to regularly interact with one another in controlled, regulated environments, in a way that fostered productive, long-term, monogamous, assortative relationships. This was a sort of “holistic” milieu, so to speak, where young people treated one another as potential future partners, sexual and otherwise, in a socially regulated manner, in all cases when they were permitted to interact. This was even the norm in workplaces where both men and women were present. The average man found a girlfriend through his extended family or social circle, because families and social circles were normally large.

What we have today is the complete opposite: “sexual zoning”. Some mixed-sex environments, like the workplace, schools and campuses, are made completely asexual – sterile, so to speak. No sexualized interactions are permitted to take place. This is demanded by law and expected by society. In such environments, you’re supposed to treat members of the opposite sex strictly as colleagues or professionals, non-sexual beings. (Hot men are allowed to get away with more, of course, but that’s another issue.) Other mixed-sex environments, on the other hand, like nightclubs, are expected to be full-on sexual. Everybody there knows that all interactions entail the future possibility of casual sex. It’s basically a meat market. You’re expected to hit on girls, and girls expect to be hit on by attractive men. Socializing in these environments requires action, engagement. If you want to find a partner, either just for sex or something more, you have to go there, you have to have Game etc.

In other words, avoidance of women in the old days was an anti-social act of disengagement that was frowned upon. Today, avoidance of women merely means that you’re not expending excess energy and time to do certain things. It’s an “action” with few or no social repercussions – you won’t be socially ostracized or something. But technically it’s not an action. You’re basically “avoiding” women by not hitting the clubs on Saturday night. You’re avoiding them through simple inaction. You can have a full-time job, or go to college, have a social circle, have hobbies, buddies etc., basically a normie life, and still “avoid” women.

I thought this was an interesting observation because there is a stark contradiction in how these sexual zones are presented to men by women. From an old books perspective, men are still expected to be the initiators. It is incumbent upon men to be the sex that approaches and expresses intimate interest in women, and men who don’t, or who fail to build themselves into acceptable mates for women are shamed as being perpetual adolescents or just “giving up.” Our feminine-primary social mandate still promotes the expectation that men will prepare for, and initiate with, women.

However, from a new books perspective men are, as Höllenhund illustrates, expected to know their place in respect to whatever sexual zone they find themselves in, as well as having an understanding of how they are perceived in the SMP. So, in an asexual zone such as a college campus or the workplace, men are expected to know their SMV and act or not act accordingly. Men not meeting or exceeding what would make for an optimized Hypergamy with women are expected not to initiate or approach. In fact, this expected understanding extends to sexual zones and fosters the avoidance Höllenhund talks about here.

For all of the handwringing from feminine-primary gender pundits about men ‘dropping out’ of life or the SMP, it is this contradiction in atmosphere that promotes the avoidance. Hypergamy, being the prime directive of westernized societies, is figuratively best served when women are in complete and unilateral control of sexual selection. Thus, we see laws and social dictates installed to encourage men to self-select themselves out of the process and make this selection easier for women. Men will be shamed for not initiating and not approaching, but simultaneously be held accountable for as much as hate crimes if they step outside what they are expected to know are their appropriate sexual zones.

http://time.com/3852117/millennials-sex-parents-boomers/

Recently there’s been a spate of articles all attempting to explain why millennials aren’t getting after it in an age when it’s never been easier to hook up. Try as they will, nearly all of the explanations fail to account for how sexual zoning has affected the sexual marketplace today. Millennials have the ‘hook up generation’ reputation, but statistically they’re not doing much fucking.

Noah Patterson, 18, likes to sit in front of several screens simultaneously: a work project, a YouTube clip, a video game. To shut it all down for a date or even a one-night stand seems like a waste. “For an average date, you’re going to spend at least two hours, and in that two hours I won’t be doing something I enjoy,” he said.

It’s not that he doesn’t like women. “I enjoy their companionship, but it’s not a significant part of life,” said Patterson, a Web designer in Bellingham, Washington.

He has never had sex, although he likes porn. “I’d rather be watching YouTube videos and making money.” Sex, he said, is “not going to be something people ask you for on your résumé.”

One aspect that these largely millennial writers themselves seem oblivious to is the complexities of sexual zones that shift constantly for guys. In 2016 hooking up is easy, we’ve got Red Pill awareness and we have instantaneous communication, but what we don’t have are clearly defined sexual zones. Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.

This is a common refrain from MGTOWs. It’s usually some variation of  “why should I waste my time trying to untangle some girl’s head just to put myself at risk of a sexual harassment or rape accusation?”

Fred Flange had this comment a few weeks ago:

Co-sign, and this “soft MGTOW” observation ties in nicely with the WashPost’s “no sex please we’re collegiate” article. MGTOW is now socially subsidized and easy to implement: just do nothing! At college, don’t engage in class, or even better, “attend” the lectures on-line. Say no more in class or lab than you must, then leave. Start no convos, you won’t be dragged into any. All of this goes for cubicle workers: in the lunchroom, stare at your phone, or eat at your desk, or if you can, get outside but go alone. No feelings caught, no feelings hurt. Everybody gets nothing, therefore everybody wins.

Eventually you can learn the fine art of disappearance in urban settings: yes you occupy space, but other than someone bumping into you, it is possible to go anywhere without your registering with anyone in the vicinity, not even cops. You can switch it on and off like a light.

One possible corollary to look for: see if the “bros before homes” shaming begins to die down. It should. Because before that you patriamalarkey-preaching Tumblr-inas insisted you wanted that cheesy-bro to go? He’s GONE! Soft MGTOW is the mandated social paradigm, outside of “safe social zones” like public streets, malls, clubs, etc. plus in some workplaces and colleges it’s law. You’re going to complain about men obeying the law?

There’s also no shortage of articles decrying the absence of boys and young men these days too. The frequent bugbear in these always point to guys ‘dropping out’ and playing X-Box all day. From America’s Lost Boys:

Young men, significantly more so than young women, are stuck in life. Research released in May from the Pew Center documented a historic demographic shift: American men aged 18-30 are now statistically more likely to be living with their parents than with a romantic partner. This trend is significant, for one simple reason: Twenty- and thirtysomething men who are living at home, working part-time or not at all, are unlikely to be preparing for marriage. Hurst’s research says that these men are single, unoccupied, and fine with that—because their happiness doesn’t depend on whether they are growing up and living life.

Now, granted, this article presumes men’s adulthood ought to be measured by his capacity to get involved with a woman, support a family and maintain a steady job. It’s very hard for writers who tackle this topic to pull their heads out of the old books reasonings. Thus, the go-to answer to the question of ‘why do guys drop out?’ is video games. It’s far easier to goof on men as a whole if they can be made to look juvenile, lazy or stupid to the point men not knowing what’s good for them.

It would take a real effort to tackle the larger reasons as to why men drop out, and men like Samuel James (article author) would be forced to acknowledge the disincentives for men to participate in what his old books reasonings tell him is some mutually beneficial arrangement. Those disincentives don’t paint women in a very flattering light, so it’s much easier to dismiss them as garden variety misogyny.

The drop out generation are content with their lot in life because they’ve accepted the realities of a social order that debases men and manhood to being appliances to better serve women’s imperatives. And the risks of investing themselves in a relationship or finding the inner will to become better men for the sake of “growing up” are significant when the rules of engagement and the acceptable sexual zones are constantly changing.

The Damage Done By ‘Mattress Girl’

“Even in less extreme situations, young men are more skeptical of women’s ability or propensity to consent to sex, which some women on campus consider demeaning.

“I find that men are more and more interested in ensuring that I’m consenting before sex, which would seem like a good thing,” Columbia student Dylan Hunzeker said. “But sometimes I don’t necessarily feel that way. Especially when I have to answer a man’s question: ‘are you sure you’re not too drunk?’ Or ‘you want to have sex with me?’ In a sense, it’s annoying and debilitating to be constantly questioned about whether or not I have agency and am a sexual human being.”

“Men are scared of women on campus now, and fear breeds anger and prejudice. Women are frustrated by men, which inspires a lack of desire to collaborate for solutions.”

I would argue that a large majority of men accused of sexual harassment or even just suspected of impropriety are men who’ve found themselves in an environment they believed was an acceptable sexual zone. We are fast approaching a time when all zones will be so arbitrary and ambiguous that every environment with sexual potential will be avoided. This will have the effect of putting women into unilateral control of their own Hypergamy. It will be a state of Sadie Hawkins world – only women will make approaches on men and only those who match her Hypergamous ideal, an ideal fostered and reinforced by a steady diet of social media ego inflation.

It’s ironic that authors bemoaning the drop out generation of men never acknowledge the other side of the disincentives for men – those generated by a feminine-primary social narrative – the generation of women who remain unmarried well into their middle age. When this is explored, once again, it’s the result of the juvenile, ridiculous men that same narrative has created for itself.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

507 comments on “Sexual Zoning

  1. “Then I read about how all men are rapists, false rape accusations, divorce rape, too-drunk-to-consent, “enthusiastic affirmative consent,” yes means yes, morning-after regrets….there are just too many risks now to interacting with women even outside of work.”

    You are reading too much into this. Divorce is common, but women want to have sex with men so the rest of this is just scare stories that you are telling yourself for some reason.

    You were good with women before so figure out a way to be good again. I am an EE and women don’t dig EEs (except maybe Asian women if you are tall). I think you believe that women should like you for what you have accomplished in your life, but that isn’t how it works.

  2. @Hollenhund,

    Interesting response, thanks. You were pretty clear that it’s a ‘hypothetical’ that alphas will clean women up so I’m guessing you don’t think it’s so. I don’t see alphas changing much. They are off and running with the male imperative of nearly unlimited, varied sexual partners. They are the last ones to seek change because the new game plays into their imperative more than anyone else. Even the attractive CC riders are not getting their full-fledged ideal imperative (commitment from an alpha).

    The SMV will start to resemble a Northern latitude state college. The Greek system kids (about 10% of the school) have the looks and nearly all the sex. Attractive non-Greek females get plucked up on occasion by the frat bros. Sorority girls NEVER sully themselves with non-Greek dweebs. So beta non-Greeks and some beta-Greeks simply are not rewarded with anything. Non-sorority girls become even more mind-bogglingly FAT. One thing no one mentions is that high fructose corn syrup is yet another provider that betas can’t compete with. There are simply no thin, long-haired beta girls with a big nose or acne or something for the beta boys. Beta females are nauseatingly fat.

    My buddies ask me why I don’t want to have children. I say that having children sounds nice but I just would never want a boy or a girl. The future of boys is grim and if he doesn’t make the alpha ranks then what’s the point? And to watch my own daughter turn into a ‘fat is beautiful’, leftist fat fuck would just be weird. I will have made my own enemy. It would blow my mind. Of course I would try to steer her clear and keep the pantry mostly bare, but I’ll also have to be at work 60 hours a week with 15-20 hours of commuting possibly. I wouldn’t want to have a typical boy or typical girl in the year 2028. If I have to fight tooth and nail to keep them far removed from what will by typical in the 2020’s then that seems like a massive chore.

    @Batfish,
    I envy your lucrative engineering skill. If I were you, I would go apeshit crazy into the world of extreme minimalism. Beans four nights a week, minimal drinks, packing sandwiches etc. and just save money double-time. Travel as much as possible with those saving and look into overseas work. Try to retire by 45 if possible and take your cash around the world. Look into buying overseas properties to rent out. GET OUT. If you’re that worried (rightfully so) then stack cash double-time and have your fun elsewhere. Also don’t get too squeamish at work or the cunts will sense that and come after you way harder than they do for some lewd, creepy half-alpha. I worked with a bunch of millenial females a few years ago. I could tell right away that there wasn’t going to be any connection at all. Fine. So I decided I would just be decent, polite and mostly quiet. That always works, right? Wrong. My decent, private behavior only got them to gossiping about who knows what. Nothing happened at all. We worked independtly of each other (teaching) and they came up with something that had them refusing to even say hello to me on the elevator. I acted like a decent, polite beta and it doesn’t work. I think a beta male could be killed in front of most women and they seriously wouldn’t give a shit at all. I mean normal women. Most wouldn’t care. They are becoming unbelievably feral imo. Keep a decent frame. If you’re the quiet, private ‘we just work together’ type then the first accidental bump in the coffee room will unleash a shitstorm. Keep a decent frame with them. The ‘private, decent, just leave me alone’ guy stance doesn’t work.

  3. Plus, things don’t magically get better.

    Listen to yareally he has the good advice.

    A problem that happens as you get older is that you lose friends to long term relationships and you don’t have the social circle to get women the way you used to. Yeareally has some great posts on building social capital. One easy way is to go to the same bar on the same night and be friendly to people in a non judgmental way. Figure out a way to add value to people.

  4. If you are an EE, you don’t want to hit on anybody at work. There are probably just a couple of cute girls who everybody has a crush on. Why bother?

  5. @ hoellenhund

    But women do respond to alpha behavior, and they are sensitive to changes in alpha attitudes. When the sexes change their social mores, it usually looks like this: 1. alphas change their attitudes and behavior 2. women adapt to alphas 3. betas adapt to women.

    Excellent point.

    Change is too gradual for the regular guy to perceive, and I include myself here. RP guys have higher sensitivity for subtle cultural shifts since we’re attuned to societal irregularities and don’t deny our gut instincts about what is best for men, reinforced by our empirical successes. RP rejects internalizing beta behaviors while trying to make it in a beta world. Thus we probably won’t see any seismic shift to natural intersexual dynamics surrounded by willingly blind, Body-Snatched beta men.

    That doesn’t mean the shift isn’t occurring. Cynicism and defeatism is beta salve for the broken male. Betas and passive women are culturally paralyzed and the only the dead are swept downstream. Counter-current RP gets off on pain; TRM forum ear-snaps the intellectually lazy, as a great example.

    The manosphere generally struggles with the existential value of the fight beyond hooking up and hot sex, the short term visible gains (which I’m all for too).

    “Cynicism is reality” my beta brother told me. He gave up on his marriage, kids and went his own way. I had to walk away from him and haven’t talked to him in years. Not a word. I don’t like it, but he was toxic, defeatest. He was trying to blow up my own marriage.

    Having kids helps me, at least. The older I get the less I care about the consequences of overt RP life as an RP future benefits my kids in a way I’ll never see, most likely.

  6. “”Cynicism is reality” my beta brother told me. He gave up on his marriage, kids and went his own way. I had to walk away from him and haven’t talked to him in years. Not a word. I don’t like it, but he was toxic, defeatest. He was trying to blow up my own marriage.”

    I am not an asshole so I am not trying to blow up anybodies marriage, but your brother maybe just wanted to have somebody to do things with. Divorced dudes can be lonely. He could still be toxic though.

  7. @scray

    “Sorry, IRL, going after a thin 7 is going to be a tough one. Going after an 8? Also tough.
    Cold Approach? LOL, tough. Anyway…..”

    I am not worried since I just found out that Jennifer Lawrence is a 6

  8. A big thank you to all here.

    Until natural masculinity can be unabashedly discussed and conventionally implemented my attempts at RP evangelism conversion always sound like these watered-down conversations.

    True examples from yesterday:

    Surgeon: My wife tells me what to do. I beg for action, she decides when. She wears the pants. Ha-Ha. (supplicating chuckles from the women present)

    Me: When did you voluntarily take them off and hand them over?

    Surgeon: When I got married.

    Me: You deserve better.

    Surgeon: I keep telling her that.

    Me: I saw your wife cut her long hair short. She’s changing her appearance for a reason, I assume. Do you approve?

    Surgeon: I don’t have much of a say.

    Me: She’s auto-menopausing herself and ultimately your position in your marriage is weaker. Please friend, help yourself and stop her from completely checking out when your kids leave. You deserve better.

    Surgeon: You don’t understand the risk of divorce on me because of my income; I need to keep the peace.

    Me: She’s already emotionally divorcing you, the rest is just paperwork. You deserve better.

    Example number two:

    Acquaintance: My 14 y.o. daughter’s clavicle broke again because of a sport injury malunion.

    Me: Bummer. You tell her she’s done with basketball or will have to find something which doesn’t push her body to failure?

    Acquaintance: No, I can’t do that. She’ll never forgive me if I forbid her. It’ll change the whole relationship.

    Me: Really? Does she love basketball more than her relationship you’ve developed?

    Acquaintance: I hope not. Anyways, you don’t understand I’d have to deal with the wife too.

    Me: Isn’t that what men, you know…husbands, do? Deal with our wives? Tell them no?

    Hell if I know if it made a difference here specifically. I do know NO ONE is spitting the actionable Truth as you guys here.

    We do make a difference, we’re just too meat-fisted to see the subtle victories.

    Fem-centrism again reminds me of the fall of the USSR. It was superpower until it wasn’t in November 1989. 70 years of unyeilding totalitarian soul-sucking top-down secular destruction. Then one night Checkpoint Charlie opens up.

    If anything the feminists understand is how to control the narrative and give out just enough benefits to maintain men’s compliance…until it collapses under its own weight.

    I know which side my bread’s buttered. Thanks for listening.

  9. @sfer

    Yeah I get that. That’s why I hated walking away from the understandable rage-fests and in the end anger at me. I don’t pretend to understand the heights of his frustration. He was just trying to figure it out with what he had. Thank you.

  10. Kobayashi

    @Sentient: They may want commitment but they’re willing to settle for seed, no?

    WHat! You mean the house always wins…?!?

  11. I admire MGTOW. I understand them and I don’t blame them. I often ask myself whether women are worth the aggravation or whether I would have anything to do with them were it not for sex. After all, lets face it: American women are assholes. Who wants to be with an asshole?

    Much of the criticism I hear leveled against MGTOW seems little more than chest thumping “my area team is better than your area team” BS.

    But, to me, the penultimate MGTOW lesson, one I incorporate, is that I CAN go my own way and if I were to I would be fine and I might even be happier. This attitude makes me less needy and more attractive to the opposite sex.

    I find MGTOW to be a useful supplement to fortify Red Pill game and theory. A lot of the MGTOW dudes are very intelligent and seem like good guys.

  12. Zhu Weneg

    I have been flailing around without much advancement over the last year (some of which is definitely the language barrier in this non-English-language country where I live).
    If you could send a note to yourself when you were just starting to learn game, what steps would you tell yourself to take?
    Because my results have been sporadic, I want to put together a game plan for getting better at game.

    I would do pretty much what I did over again… there is not a lot of magic to learning game and it isn’t that hard.

    1. Believe it is real. Even if you do not trust the advice, first go DO IT and then reflect… Too many guys just make excuses and never execute as a result.
    2. Believe that YOU have intrinsic value. Full stop.
    3. Believe that women really want sex, you are not “tricking” them despite the “game” label…
    4. Put the time in to study… watch the videos, read the books… understand the concepts. Like a job.
    5. Put the time in the field… like real time. Not an hour here or there on a couple nights a week. Like four nights in a row… from 8 to an hour after closing… multiple times a month. for a few months. Like a job. Forget sleep…
    6. Push your comfort zone… if something is freaking you out… push through and do it.
    7. Game to win… i.e. to pull and have sex… I would focus on cold approach night game looking to SNL with tight logistics until you can do this regularly. This is the fastest way to get good because you are running through the whole process… not stair stepping… not bailing on sets etc.
    8. Strive to remove your ego from both success and failure as soon as you can. at the end of the day you are still you because of you.

    Good luck.

  13. sfer
    I am not worried since I just found out that Jennifer Lawrence is a 6

    Notice she’s 26, maybe 27 years old, too.

  14. @ ChumpNoMore

    The superzip thing is fascinating.

    Imo, the tendency of people to use external props as a way to elevate themselves and boost self esteem has always struck me as odd, in a Disneyland kind of way.

    I looked up my own zip code and it’s in the mid 20’s, lol. But I live in a wonderful mc/wc neighborhood, with multi million dollar homes nearby and beautiful streets lined with trees a couple of hundred years old.

    According to the map, I am a half mile away from a superzip, and the empire state building looms large from my backyard deck.

    I don’t really concern myself with these things as a validation of anything. I work in the wealthiest county in the state and it doesn’t really mean much. My zip that’s in the 20’s has a virtually non existent suicide rate, and low rates of divorce. The superzip I work in has a higher rate of suicide and divorce, and just general unhappiness.

    Oh, and the husband of a lady at my job, who lives in a superzip, was arrested and charged with murder and a bunch of other charges in relation to a missing woman that was a co-worker of his. The woman’s remains were found burried in his backyard.

    Mo money, Mo problems.

    I float between all of the zips. It gives me broader life experience and understanding.

    I had a friend/ fuckbuddy that worked at a top hedge fund on Wall Street. She invited me to spend 4 days with her in the Hamptons. I jumped at the offer. The house we stayed at was insane. Most of the parties were great. Every drug known was everywhere.

    But it was too….fake? People were way to hung up on their wealth. Like they were following a script or some kind, and when they veered away from it, they became subject to dumb behavior.

    Same thing I’d noticed in LA, Scottsdale, DC/Maryland, but oddly not in NYC.

    Validation and esteem must be internal.

  15. @kaminsky
    How do we incentivize them? (honest question, not loaded snark)
    —Do we incentivize by withdrawing?
    —Or by becoming yet better men?

    Watch the video here:
    https://therationalmale.com/2015/03/13/bachelor-nation/

    I’d like to think of this as an example of the sexual market correcting itself, but when you listen to the self-important, solipsistic reasonings as to why these women believe the most desirable men ought to alter their own sexual strategies and minds to accommodate sub-optimal women such as themselves, you begin to see why MGTOW, even soft MGTOW is a default response.

    Alphas change behavior, women do or do not adapt, and then Betas follow the dictates of the sexual market. Here you have an example of men who both withdraw and make themselves better men, but the attitude on the part of women isn’t, “Oh shit, we’d better make ourselves more acceptable mates for these desirable men or they’ll outsource us to Brazil.” Instead it’s the same entitled response we expect from women raised in a feminine-primary social order, “These men need to change to accommodate us! It’s our game they need to play.” or else it’s some variation of “I make my own damn money” and they end up with a hapless Beta who would accommodate her because he too was raised to fall in line with feminine-primacy.

    Correcting women has to begin at home. It needs to come from Red Pill fathers raising daughters from a Red Pill aware perspective. It’s got to come from a bottom up methodology, and quite honestly I don’t think that can happen until more men become Red Pill aware and accept their new role of mentoring the next generations as well as unplugging Blue Pill men today.

    We have a generation of women today who are the products of fempowerment and participation trophy equalism. That they’d EVER need to self-correct in order to have a better man in their lives is never an afterthought. Look at the women in this video, they are genuinely shocked that guys would be independent enough to save their money and take it upon themselves to look for romantic options outside of their ‘approved’ roles that ought to be in their lives. They literally don’t get it, so they fall back on male shaming and call them ‘sex tourists’ which is one degree away from ‘human trafficking’.

    These women are the products of the oblivious entitlement that’s come from a feminine-primary social upbringing that’s taught them women can do anything and be anything. They’re taught to expect men to be compliant with their sexual strategies, but yet be their SMV equal or better without any qualifications on their part other than to have a vagina.

    I believe the market can correct itself, but it must come from the bottom up and that starts by raising daughters and mentoring young women into more realistic self-understanding and more realistic expectations from themselves and others.

  16. “Validation and esteem must be internal.”

    “@ Zhu, Thanks for the kind words.”

    Laugh out loud. I see what you just did there Blax.

  17. @Kobitashi –

    Good point there. When you do a cost/benefits analysis on the women you interact with, only you can decide if the chase is worth the catch. A lot of the time, it isn’t.

    I have a good friend that is MGTOW and is totally unaware of it. He works in the arts, makes a baseline salary (under $30k), is short and lacks confidence in approaching women. As a result, he’s completely invisible to the hot women he comes in contact with. I fully envision him going to his grave without a LTR or even a FEB.

    Despite that, he’s relatively happy; roof over his head, food in the fridge, Xbox and a Mac in the living room, etc. And if I defined MGTOW for him, he’d probably be insulted; he still pines for that hot cosplay chick to one day come into his life and make it all magic.

    But I get his position, I really do. If you’re passed over 1,000 times in a row and lack the awareness that you can actually change your life and prospects through a RP mindset, then I get why interacting with a game console can be so rewarding.

    Not me; at 51 I still find women exciting despite their flaws and the huge changes in the sexual and social landscape in the last 10 years or so. Rise above it. Get better. Invest in your own worth. Always swing for the fences.

  18. @ walawala

    Jim Carrey’s situation scares the hell out of me. One of the hardest things I’ve been coming to terms with is she’s probably eventually going to commit suicide, if not sometime soon. The threats have been daily for months and she’s been in a downward spiral recently, substance abuse, losing friends because of her issues, etc. And everything I’ve done for her means absolutely nothing to her because it’s never enough. It’s like she has an insatiable void, a black hole, that just sucks everything into it. Feels like everything I’ve done for her was for nothing, and I’ve genuinely cared about her and have tried to help her more times than I could possibly count, because I’ve been at low points like she has and know what it’s like.

    But I am beyond drained. I just feel like an empty shell at this point. I also feel alienated because I don’t know anyone in my in-person life who has been in a BPD relationship and everything I’m going through is foreign to them. Some friends tease me about the relationship and it just makes me feel like shit and pissed off and not want to be around them because they don’t understand how fucking serious this is.

    See: Compassion Fatigue.

    “Compassion Fatigue is a state experienced by those helping people or animals in distress; it is an extreme state of tension and preoccupation with the suffering of those being helped to the degree that it can create a secondary traumatic stress for the helper.”

    Makes me think of this immediately:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xjlfyQyOw8

    “…So useless, futility defined
    Watching you wait for the stars to align
    So clueless, so simple it should be a crime
    And I can’t bring myself to save you this time

    Keep me in your sights, possessed by the spite, woeful irrelevance
    So quick to ignite, impulse to indict, defense for incompetence

    For what it’s worth, it was over before it began
    Blind in your search, no one to guide your hand
    For what it’s worth, you crossed a line in the sand
    Cut off, locked out, as it fell right through your hands

    Victimize, cast off, forgotten daughter, play the martyr
    So they sympathize with your condition and your position
    It’s strategic how your misfortune became so fortunate
    Oh, it must be torture keeping up with it
    Consider me disengaged and find a better character for your stage”

    @ SJF

    I appreciate the pep talk.

    Things feel pretty fucked. I’m not suicidal anymore which is pretty important. At the moment I have zero energy to move forward. Me not having friends of my own that lift me up and move forward with me doesn’t help. I’ll figure something out eventually but for the time being I’m tapping out. My physical health is garbage and I’ve been focusing on strength and interval training and trying to eat enough and sleep enough to build up my energy. I’m focusing on the bare minimum right now which is trying to take care of my physical body to the best of my ability.

  19. @EhIntellect
    Re your story about surgeon supplicating etc.

    I now have a routine with men like that, where I draw them out a bit for whatever reason, then when I hear shit like that, I am simply subtly demeaning about their self castration. I usually just adopt my shit eating grin and shake my head in mild disgust without saying anything. I find it’s a good way to let men know that their behavior is not worthy of respect from other men, much less from women. If it goes well they can challenge you on your reaction such as, “So you’re wife would let you tell her how to cut her hair?”.

    Me: “Actually she checks in with me before she even books an appointment to confirm any new color she has in mind and how much she is allowed to cut off”.

    That answer usually draws a dropped jaw blank stare at me. I chuckle a bit more.

    If they were to verify with my wife she would assure them she would be fired if she cut her hair without consulting with me about it.

    Example, I am working with another firm on a major design project. Speaking with the principal from said firm and we are strategizing on how to deal with a large and difficult client. I was speaking to issues of confidence, building rapport, doing take-aways with the client team etc (sound familiar) and I simply said, “Well you’re never going to get a blow job if you don’t tell her you want one, same with the client, we need to set our expectations clearly from the get go”. Or something to that effect as an analogy to some specific ask of the client team.

    Standard BP reply, from a reasonably successful (business) guy who is just North of 50, “Ha!, you may get blow jobs but I’m not going to get that, not since 20 years ago…”.

    Me: “You know it’s not that hard, you just have to keep control of the situation, well lets make sure with the client we aren’t shy about advocating for our need to get BJ’s so to speak for it to be a proper working relationship” or something like that.

    So I reframe the conversation back to work away from sex, but I have made the man admit his balls are in a jar on the kitchen shelf at home. I have allowed him to see there are other ways to approach things in the world WRT women and relationships, not to mention business.

    For me it was a good conversation too in terms of AMOGing the guy. He had set up the deal in the first place but I was better positioned to run the deal in the long run and I needed to beat him down some but in a subtle way. It does the trick too because a lot of AFC’s realize if a guy can get what he wants out of his wife / women in general, with alarming regularity perhaps he knows his shit about how to game people in general, even if they cannot find the words to describe that. They automatically start to fall in line behind you without much work after that.

    Now in that instance my desire was to AMOG for reasons stated, but I find the BJ conversation to be a time honored way of ferreting out the extent of Blue Pillness you are dealing with in a man. If they are not in mixed company and they speak honestly about it and their mind set, you know right away what you’re dealing with in terms of how hard the matrix has them. More importantly is the follow up to it. No warm blooded man is likely to pass up on some degree of information that might help him get a hummer. So if they follow up with “OK, how do you do that with the BJ then?” you have an opener on RP teachings. If however they are so resigned to their fate they cannot even imagine trying to change the dynamic at home, then you know you have that guy AMOG’d for life on that point alone.

    So what’s my point? Not sure entirely but there is this one which I did not expect when I started typing: Be an AMOG and make it clear to men who are pussies that they do not automatically get respect from you, particularly if they are being a BP pussy. If said men don’t respect me, they won’t give a shit what I think, but if they defer to me as an AMOG, well they will register the lack of respect and perhaps reconsider their ways WRT their relationships, if only a little.

    Call it lead by example. I think this applies to chicks as well. Can we save everyone? Hell no, but some can be saved and for the most part it requires engaging their intellect to help them overcome one small element of learned helplessness, because after all that’s most certainly what BP is for 99% of all men, it’s simply learned helplessness. There is of course all the hard work and mess it takes to get people out of BP world, but for a few gems it’s worth a bit of time and attention.

  20. The foundation upon Fem-centrism is too brittle to be maintained long-term. Thermodyanmics requires all things back to disorder or in this case intersexual dynamics shift closer to the individual. Our culture provides an artiface of egalitarian equalism and requires and unsustainable amount of false promises, willing denial, non-existent wealth transfers to make it so.

    “Trends that can’t continue, won’t.”

    TRM is helpful for theory building, which provide frameworks for action and with enough motivation help men find workable solutions. Proof is in the pudding.

    I believe success begets success.

    I’m not well traveled, but I assume most of the developed world doesn’t give a rat’s ass about fem-centrism, or are frustrated that their master’s of the universe plan to herd the mobs of hoi-polloi is not working seamlessly.

    But honestly what do I know about world opinion.

  21. @Kobiyashi-

    Second point of yours that I agree with…

    Your comment about the gynocentric zeitgeist (hope I spelled that right!) was completely on point. I’ve seen women 50-100 pounds heavier that me (I’m 200 myself) actually presenting themselves as viable sexual/ romantic choices to relatively good looking guys. My belief is that fat shaming has more than one meaning; it’s also meant to shame a guy into thinking that a man is less than a man for passing over a fatty.

    Well, our erections don’t work that way. No amount of sovial shaming and cries of Man Up are going to turn a heifer into a hottie, and especially for a man who is RP aware.

  22. So, riddle me this, Batman, why should I be pursuing…anything…with a woman? Make that cost-benefit analysis shift to pro-female.

    Well, it’s up to your own desires, goals and risk tolerance, as well as interest in making life changes, really.

    The critical initial question is what do you plan to do with your libido? In your late 30s it’s still there, provided you have healthy T levels. Do you plan to sate it with porn, or hookers or something like that? If so, you’re still dealing with women, in a way, but just doing it differently — in other words, you’re still playing the rigged game on their terms if you go those routes, it’s just that they have different kinds of risks — not no risk, but different risks which are more subtle.

    If you plan to do anything other than porn or hookers, then you’re dealing with Game, the red pill and so on — that, or you’re buying into the blue pill frame and getting shit on by that.

    So that’s really your threshold question — what about the sex part?

    As for work, don’t shit where you eat is a pretty good rule to follow. I agree with Kaminsky that you can’t just fade into the woodwork at work — women don’t like that, either, and will undermine you behind your back if you do that. I’ve found it useful to be masculine and participatory, but I do avoid flirting and sexualization (not hard in my context because the women in my class who are around me are not attractive, and today you don’t cross class lines at all when it comes to women in the workplace without risking a massive harassment claim due to “unequal power” and so on) — so it’s a line where I am not faded out into the woodwork, and am a core and visible player on the team, but I am also not flirtty or sexualized in that context. My choice, due to my own perception of the risk/benefit in that specific context.

  23. @sfr

    I am not worried since I just found out that Jennifer Lawrence is a 6

    lol

    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah there’s a lot of that kind of 2/10 pointy elbow stuff around here and everywhere in the manosphere, generally.

    you have to differentiate between like ‘oh this chick really isn’t MY TYPE’ i.e. which IMHO is what has them saying MODELS, ACTRESSES, AND CELEBS are “only 6’s”

    and “LITERALLY in the real world this chick is just SLIGHTLY better than average.”

    again, the average young woman is 5’3 and 160 pounds.

  24. Well, our erections don’t work that way. No amount of sovial shaming and cries of Man Up are going to turn a heifer into a hottie

    Yeah it’s one of those core areas of female entitlement — they are entitled to an erection on demand, regardless of their appearance. They think men have unreasonable preferences, and that these are not based on not being able to become aroused because they seem to erroneously think that any man can become aroused by virtually any woman if she touches him properly — meaning that pretty much every woman is entitled to your erection if she wants it. I’ve had women pretty much claim as much — in different words of course — and pretty much not get anything about how male arousal actually works.

  25. . I’ve seen women 50-100 pounds heavier that me (I’m 200 myself) actually presenting themselves as viable sexual/ romantic choices to relatively good looking guys.
    Well, our erections don’t work that way. No amount of sovial shaming and cries of Man Up are going to turn a heifer into a hottie

    this is such BS.

    NEWSFLASH: OVER 66% OF WOMEN IN THE U.S. ARE OVERWEIGHT OR OBESE — MOST OF THEM ARE HAVING SEX, meaning that THE VAST MAJORITY OF DUDES ARE GETTING IT UP FOR THESE ‘HEIFERS.’

    Dudes who trend > 60% Pleasure of Sex fuck fatties/average weights (which lol is fat) semi-occasionally, even the good looking ones.

    Where do you think the entitlement comes from?
    These chicks get that dick.

    And they confuse getting laid with like, being thought of as a high value woman, because of the current ‘women are like men’ narrative.

    But too many dudes are dishonest about this kind of shit.

    There is a REASON “normal” chicks — cute, thin, young — are such bitches. And it’s because there just simply are not a lot of them to go around anymore. They are in SUPER high demand.

  26. Wait “average” for a chick is 160?? and 5’3″??

    Seriously? I’m 5’10” and 165 – and I’m not skinny or anything – just average. And I’m a dude.

  27. @Culum

    Yeah.

    The average weight of 20-30 y/o women is around 165, I think the median is 155, tho —> FYI still overweight by a good 15-20 pounds.

    And lol no, you’re not average — lol wtf this is the kind of silliness that just pervades the manosphere — you weigh about 20 pounds less than the median dude.

    Now, you notice how much you’re struggling and having to learn game?

    YEAH, THIS IS PART OF THE REASON WHY

  28. *mind blown* – seriously. I always thought I was average, but I just looked it up and for my age (the chart doesn’t include height) – I’m barely in the 25th percentile.

    Average adult US male height: 69.3 inches (I’m about 70.5)

    Average (not median) weight – 195 (I’m 165)

    WTF, but my BMI is like 23 – well in the normal range. So almost everyone is overweight looks like..

    So the prescription is just lift bro? I have been of late actually but the consistency and diet are difficult..not an excuse, just a fact. There’s a limit to how many things I can focus on at once.

  29. @culum

    Eh, just look at the figures for white people….the median height is 70.2.

    So your average height and below average weight — i.e. “good shape” relative to the rest of the male populous. Your BMI is “normal” because MOST EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES IS A FAT FUCK. lol.

    Wrt the prescription, idk…do you look gangly? If not, you are NOT underweight, nor are you unhealty…you are ABOVE AVERAGE — YOU AREN’T FAT and I’m assuming you’re at least decent looking.

    Now consider your very real struggles.

    It isn’t a game lol

    The demand is SKY HIGH for even NORMAL (I.E. AVERAGE) chicks.

    Like, YOU probably are already top 20% — if you can consistently hit on and gain interest/sex from chicks who are like 5’3-5’4 and weigh 150-160 pounds, welp…..you are above average.

  30. No, my build is normal and I look decent. Not gangly at all. If I go through a phase of working too hard and eating crap I sometimes have a small paunch but generally not. So yeah, probably above average in the context you’re talking about. No wonder I get so many IOIs just walking through a club..it’s closing/leading that I’m focussing on now.

  31. “TRP is about becoming a guy who can do that regularly, no “luck” required.”

    unless you can see the future, “luck” will always be required

    I would much rather be lucky than good

  32. @culum

    No wonder I get so many IOIs just walking through a club..it’s closing/leading that I’m focussing on now.

    if you’re getting a ton of passive IOIs that’s another level altogether lol

  33. @redpillAttentionWhorenotes

    “I hope you men won’t mind me NOT contributing to this community by NOT commenting on the topic at hand, but I simply can’t help myself. I feel it’s my place to come here and force feed my unrelated content upon men in the middle of a different conversation. Please don’t think of your own interests and instead do my marketing work for me for free. Surely I’m worthy of such solipsism.”

  34. Scray

    again, the average young woman is 5’3 and 160 pounds.

    Sure but this average is spread over many, many different populations… I could point to half a dozen colleges right now that would blow your mind and the averages to bits… let alone the sororities at them… or spend a February in South Beach…

  35. “Most of the chicks at the club look way diff without their makeup, too.”

    No kidding. I’ve scraped the paint off a number of them with my own two hands. Seen a few of the morning after too. Or all covered in sweat and mud after a Hash run, or 50 mile bicycle ride in the rain, without fenders. I’m not an incel autistic kid who has never seen a natural woman.

    I have addressed that chart both here and at RoK. The scale is skewed low at the high end. I’ve even addressed the specific woman one of the arrows is pointing to, as she is my type, a slender, red-headed Scot.

    She’s cute. An 8 in her prime. If I’d nabbed her should coulda been my third best looking wife. Number 2 didn’t wear makeup after high school.

  36. “You can never live up to the local celebrity lifestyle she sees in her face everyday along with a hot guy at her side.”

    agree.

    don’t compete. redefine.

    she only thinks that lifestyle is best because that’s what she was told by the screen and her friends who watch the screen.

    she must be led. if you don’t do it, the screen will, and you lose.

    be an unstoppable force and no one will give a shit about “local celebrity lifestyles” because they’ll be too swept up in the fun to care.

    of course this doesn’t work if you’re a fucking drone of a dude just working his life away hoping to trade his chits for some carousel pusssy some day

  37. @Novaseeker –

    Thank you for saying that, and so clearly. I really couldn’t say what I meant but you nailed it. It’s the claim of male entitlement but on the other foot – the idea that your wallet, as well as your erection, is up for grabs for any woman who is vertical and breathing, regardless of how unappealing she is. Fact is, woman ever considers herself THAT unattractive, and denying a fatty the attention cuts right to the heart of her self image. It’s moving the goalposts, and I can’t tell you how many overweight buy that line of fat is sexy.

    Of course, every guy has a dry spell now and again, and some will resort to fat women for their quick need. However, most men I know treat them as junk food; satisfying in the moment, but shameful in retrospect and definitely not what the male body needs. I pity those that do cross that line and wife- or girlfriend-up a chubster, because ti communicates desperation. And there are a lot of desperate guys out there.

    @Scray –

    Good points you made there. I agree that someone’s screwing the fatties, since, as you say, over 60% of US women are overweight. Someone is doing a lot of heavy lifting (pun intended) out there, obviously.

    But hear me out. Just because men are nailing fatties doesn’t necessarily translate into that being their first choice for a woman. Imagine having a self image so low that you believe that a 260 woman with a beer belly like Wilford Brimley is THE BEST YOU CAN GET. That’s a sign of someone who won’t pass the shit test, won’t handle derision and rejection, and won’t push through improving themselves to get someone better. That’s white knighting at its worst.

    Again, you’re right; someone is rolling the Feminine Imperative in flour and looking for the wet spot, but be glad it isn’t you or I.

  38. This stuff here is dangerous.

    I’m 6′ 158. 46 y.o. Runner’s build.

    I can get all the 20’s play I want.

    I had to deescalate conversations with a 26 y.o. 5′ 7″ 130# budweiser pour girl and a 20 y.o. 5’3″ 110# (sundress, no bra) coed recently.

    I walked across the 1/2 empty bar, sat down next to the pour girl and said “I was bored over there and you are much more interesting and pretty to look at.” shook her hand, blah blah blah. I had her name and # in 10 minutes.

    The coed gave me a peek, I lazered her eyes (F#$K yes it works), slowly strode straight through the posse she was with, walked right in the middle, with my hand exdended, introduced myself and the rest of her gals just melted off to the side. We talked for at least an hour, I had to back it off, went Daddy mode, killed the electricity and convinced her to text my nephew for a date instead.

    Thin guys can get play too. It’s what you bring to the table that counts.

    This shit works so well I had to go cold turkey. Curse my dambed conscience. Christ, the girls giggle or stare mouth agape around here when I lazer their eyes give them a subtle and low-tone “How you been?”

    This week I kinoed a 30 y.o. coworker by accident, don’t laugh, by accident, I brushed my hand on her thigh, and she was so turned on she grabbed my upper arm and leaned into me.

    Lazer eyes works so well I’ll stare at my wife from 150 feet across the back yard positioning my body so that she’ll panic and kinda run, smile and the chase is fucking on!

    This stuff here is dangerous.

  39. Something to throw into the weight distribution discussion here. This is one of my favorite Roissy posts:

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/womens-standards-crumble-easily-given-the-right-incentives/

    This also confirms what YaReally and most PUAs relate. While it may seem like social media grossly overinflates the egos and self-awareness of women’s actual SMV, it’s always important to stay grounded in what their behavior explains is the reality.

    I’ve always said that if a man can stay in shape, even marginally, keep his BF% in the “normal” range, put on a marginal bit of muscle, be Red Pill aware and Game savvy, he’ll place himself well beyond the SMV of the 68%+ of men in his demographic.

    Women’s “standards” crumble easily given the right incentives. Yes, fat women are getting laid, but is that due to lesser men’s thirst or are these fat women holding out for better-than-merited men of higher SMV pandering to their social media fueled egos?

    There’s a reason they say fat girls try harder. They understand their own SMV limitations.

  40. Dalrock has a new posting up that is relevant, The hum of the pumps.

    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/

    Money graph:

    Young girls will watch commercials like the one above and will grow up to be bossy women. They will even congratulate themselves on how extraordinary they are for being a woman who is pushy and controlling. But feminism is being presented to them as a largely completed project. Sure they will constantly complain that the whole world is stacked against them, even while basking in their personal triumph over the patriarchy. But more and more they will ask what is the point of showing that women can do what other women have already shown women can do, especially as the inevitable costs of decades of previous feminism show up.

    Feminism is like a big jumping castle. Big fans must be constantly inflating it, lest the whole thing collapse in a heap on the ground. Women are still women although with enough YouGoGrrl they can be totally unbearable at the macro, societal level and the micro, relationship level. But take away the pumps, the props, the fans, all the artificial stuff and see what happens.

    “They’re all girls.” – Blaximus

    This can be shown at the micro level where even lesbian feminists can be Gamed short term.

    tl;dr
    Feminism is overhead. It’s a cost. Girls are girls. Remove the props holding them up and the glass floor collapses.

  41. @sentient

    Sure but this average is spread over many, many different populations… I could point to half a dozen colleges right now that would blow your mind and the averages to bits… let alone the sororities at them… or spend a February in South Beach…

    I could point out to half a dozen [self-selected groups] right now that would blow your mind and the averages to bits…let alone the [self-selected groups within the self-selected groups] at them, or spend a February in South Beach.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/L0wjOmCXiuiyI/giphy.gif

    This is my point exactly. Many groups guys are competing for chicks in have “average” chicks that are MUCH ABOVE the real average. And so dudes who are choding out, getting pissy, really don’t have the full picture or understand the kind of competition they’re taking part in.

    also

    GSP looks okay…my body is around that level height/weight proportionate

    @Mike

    I agree that someone’s screwing the fatties, since, as you say, over 60% of US women are overweight.

    Tons of dudes are. Dudes in the top 20% ARE fucking (no commitment) average chicks, too.

    But hear me out. Just because men are nailing fatties doesn’t necessarily translate into that being their first choice for a woman

    But no one said that.

    You said that “erections don’t work that way.”

    Imagine having a self image so low that you believe that a 260 woman with a beer belly like Wilford Brimley is THE BEST YOU CAN GET. That’s a sign of someone who won’t pass the shit test, won’t handle derision and rejection, and won’t push through improving themselves to get someone better. That’s white knighting at its worst.

    Ehhhh most dudes don’t think that, either.

    Literally most dudes are just looking to get it in. Dudes who can get it in FWB/FB/NSA consistently with chicks who are 5’3 20-29 150-160 pounds = above average = top 20%.

    Which means that a ton of guys are competing for those chicks wrt “relationships.”

    And there’s this lack of empathy in the manosphere. dude 2016 dating for men is SERIOUS SHIT.

    Like, dudes who believe that the “average” woman (OR WORSE) are the best they can do aren’t that uncommon — 80% of dudes.

    It’s not “white knighting,” it’s just the facts on the ground.

    Like, I fully acknowledge that I am more ToTH than Pleasure of Sex (probably not as much as say like Ya, but still vast majority ToTH) and that that weird OCD shit just keeps me from fucking the “average” woman. For ex, I always get on chicks for their weight….like, one of my FBs was 5’3 125 and I would just always flip out at her and tell her how fat and unhealthy she was. I just thought this was all “normal” and shit until I started realizing that like…

    …IT’S SO MUCH WORSE OUT THERE AHHHHHHHH!

    So it’s more something to do with me and my specific scene than like….objective reality.

    @kfg

    I have addressed that chart both here and at RoK. The scale is skewed low at the high end. I’ve even addressed the specific woman one of the arrows is pointing to, as she is my type, a slender, red-headed Scot.

    Lol based on what FACTS?

    In AMERICA 5’3 160 pounds = a 5. That chart seems to depict as much and the general progression.

    Wrt your PERSONAL TASTE and the standards you have (TotH impulses) yeah, you may have a different set of standards….

    At what point does this become 2/10 pointy elbow syndrome that is no better than the over 30 fat woman throwing out her bullet point checklist and bemoaning how most men don’t measure up?

  42. Saw the Dalrock commerical.

    Honestly, how may artisan dog biscuit, fancy cupcake and dildo pure romance party representatives do we need?

    They’re all selling the same disposable income detritus to each other, then calling themselves bidness ladies.

    Anyway, the CEO of the sex-toy “Pure Romance” plastics maker company is probably a dude.

    Just checked…well my, my, it is!

    G.K. Chesterton: “Ten thousand women marched through the streets shouting, ‘We will not be dictated to,’ and went off and became stenographers.”

  43. @Zhe – Okay, so try to first get that I’m the wrong guy to ask about game as I’m not good at it…yet. I’m still trying to wriggle my way through an existential crisis and psychological issues that keep me inconsistent and struggling with some day to day life things. It’s Maslow’s hierarchy for me, like my business is doing better but my PTSD is kind of jangling hard. I went sedentary for a while and just pulled out of that tailspin and am enjoying being physical again. More to come. When chaos reigns, game takes a back seat.

    Also, you have access to world class PUAs here, YaReally, Sentient, Hank, Scray and I know I’m forgetting some great guys, don’t be pissed, you know who you are. Ask direct questions of PUAs who have mastered the game and are getting the outcomes you want.

    My journey looked like this:

    – I came at Red Pill from an angle of issues with my daughter, and with one of my sisters. Like I simply could not believe how people I’d cared for and helped raised in very significant ways could turn on me so horribly. I was a Natural of sorts, having had a lot of women in my life, but also had tremendous difficulty with them. As most BP guys, I “knew” Red Pill truths at some level but lived with that weird duality men must adopt to “go along”.

    – As a Natural, some of game is easy for me to understand and execute. I can talk to anyone and open etc, I’m gregarious and at least somewhat charming, when not bubbling with homicidal rage of course…And I can also flirt and sexualize and tease when I want. I’m not shut down around beautiful women, so you’d think that I’d have an easier time of it…

    But not so. First off, I just winged it and got laid so at some basic level I resist having to structure all this shit. It feels “try hard” and there is an ego involved in being a Natural, like I always did look down on guys who had to work hard to get any play. It felt like lowering myself. Even more destructive? You see, now I’m a “former Natural”, ya? Women don’t fall in my lap anymore (they never exactly fell anyway), and this is devastating. It’s evidence of my decline and issues. It’s proof I’m past it. It’s kind of like being rich and then not being, it’s hard on the identity (and I’ve been through that too).

    Technically it’s really challenging cuz I always get to a point with game where I’m like “I got this” and then I wing it again and fuck it up and get discouraged. Or even worse, I get some real interest going and shit my pants. Or I close too hard or don’t calibrate. I get more “at bats” than I should, and fuck them up royally.

    – Inner game is the only thing. I was a Natural not because of how I looked but because of my insane self-confidence and optimism when I was younger. I was so ambitious and driven, I reeked of it. In my 30s, when I walked into a room, you knew I was there. It didn’t hurt that my clothing and watch were worth more than most people’s cars, but I also had this boyish, model quality face. I got play despite myself, I swear, I felt like Warren Beatty in Shampoo in that I really didn’t understand how I ended up with all those women.

    Now I know. Confidence is a statement about how you perceive your own value. In my 30s I had achieved a lot in my career and was taking on other things like music and writing, had stopped wild partying and had a daughter who at that point loved me. I had helped stitch my wounded family back together a bit and had overcome a lot of shit in my life, including starting out with nothing, being on my own at 18. I was making real money, a top tech sales type when i’d started out in a warehouse for a computer hardware company while i went to night school. I felt like I could accomplish anything in some real ways.

    At the same time I was riddled with self-loathing. This is the Irish-Catholic, beaten like a bad puppy part of me. I was literally at war with myself.

    Then I get old. Throughout my 40s I kept a level of denial about various issues in my life, illness, fortune, my own mistakes, my career and other issues.

    I arrive at the Red Pill 3.5 years ago.

    Inner game is everything. I strap on Red Pill intellectually and go MGTOW immediately as it’s a perfect perch to hate women from. No dice, I see through that existential cul de sac in 6 months and then find other more intellectual environs, and arrive here 2.5 years ago.

    At first, I think game is trivial. I think Rollo is right but a bit too categorical and one dimensional. I have some white knight left in me. But it does its work on me as it will you if you read and question and learn here and elsewhere in the Manosphere.

    Then I confront game. Having already fucked 100 women and at that point playing “soft sugar daddy” game. I find some massage girl, become her mentor, get her to fuck me, maybe for free. I collect some other young women who I end up being a mentor of sorts too – women gravitate to me this way.

    So I thought I could “get” game pretty quickly and then began to open my eyes. I didn’t really start to game at all in a serious way until early this year.

    Inner game is everything.

    There is no technique, there is only who you are being as a foundation. Using technique and routines and practicing will make you confront who you are being. Practice opening and running sets as a way of exploring yourself. I found in the moment that my motivations were FI and BP informed in many real ways.

    The only way for me was/is to do the following:

    1. Pick a course. For me, MM is easily the best of any of them but other guys may direct you elsewhere. But whatever you do, you have to have a method to your approach or you will not improve.

    2. Practice – Open women up everywhere. Even ones you don’t want to fuck. Experience how it works, see the truth in operation. I tell marketing people that they should be sales people first so they know what it’s like to hold demand in their hands, what it feels like to win and lose deals. Ditto for pick up, you have to experience it.

    3. Do field reports. Repeat. Do field reports. Guys here will give you mad insights.

    Where am i at now? I finally am confronting my resignation and cynicism and sadness and hopelessness and rage. It has been worsened a bit by the Red Pill as i initially tried to fire myself up like I did when I was 30 and that’s not where I’m at. I am MUCH smarter and more efficient and effective, I just have to get after it. I find that at this point of my life, keeping things simple, keeping it in the day and just having a series of small goals is really helping me get off the mat right now. Instead of obsessing on the long game, i’m focused on the day. I’m headed in the right direction, I just need to let go of all the regret and fear.

    Game is central to this struggle for me and it may not be obvious how. I’m amazed by my own capacity for self-deception. I truly was not aware of how bad my attitude had become. Inside, I lived in some kind of fantasy where I was still that guy from 15 years ago and that everything was just going to work out somehow, I managed to ignore how shit was just falling apart. This is very common with mental illness…It’s very hard to admit this. Man, do I love anonymity.

    Game is like a direct experience of reality that grounds me. I project how I see myself, no matter what. It leeches through. Even when I’m playing a role, which I do a lot in my life. I also became very good at keeping up a brave face to the world, mostly cuz i can’t stand hard questions…

    This here? This is the land of hard questions, lol. But the RP works subtly on you too. I’m much different with women now. I don’t have “hope” in the way I once did, but at times I can really grasp my own power. That’s what matters most to me. And I use every bit of it to play things out with women. I’m still not good at escalating, and my last couple of FB and number closes flaked but I still work it.

    I’m very influenced by Sentient, YaReally and SJF, among others here. The journey a man here undertakes is no small thing. I love Sentient’s “Dynamic, Passionate and Authentic” triad, and his “Platinum Rule”. I need these little mental shortcuts to i can reorient myself when i’m getting sideways. In my particular case, dealing with an anxiety disorder, trying to “change” feels very overwhelming so things like this help me keep it simple.

    As for game, where I’m at now is being able to move through A1 and A2. I’m about projecting intent and letting go of the need to be valued as a father figure/mentor/wizened soul type. My logistics often suck cuz i live 12 miles into the woods and that’s a hard venue change, lol.

    Biggest surprise? How much logistics count.

    Hope this helps.

    Did I mention that inner game is everything?

  44. @ Rollo

    “I’ve always said that if a man can stay in shape, even marginally, keep his BF% in the “normal” range, put on a marginal bit of muscle, be Red Pill aware and Game savvy, he’ll place himself well beyond the SMV of the 68%+ of men in his demographic.”

    I’d add in dressing well, and grooming (e.g. haircut and styling).

    I’ll vouch for “freebie IOI’s” from all of the above. But it’s a shitty feeling when women approach YOU and you don’t have enough Game to know what to do. They took the bait for you, without you doing shit, and then when they want you to reel them in and lead them into getting banged you just go “Dur hur hur” and fuck it up.

    In a perfect world a guy’s external appearance would be congruent with his level of Game. Perfect example of this is playing guitar. I’ve gotten tons of IOI’s from girls by playing guitar at parties, sometimes I’ll even sing and not give a fuck. I’m very confident in my playing and that comes out pretty obviously.

    But the second a girl approaches me I choke and basically reveal that behind the veneer of DHV is a socially awkward sperg that’s just happened to spend a lot of time practicing guitar and doesn’t know what he’s doing with women. One time I had the hottest girl at a party come up to me and ask me “Do you know how to play [song by some guy I’ve never heard of]?”

    I never heard of it and didn’t know how to play it. I just blanked out. Fell into her frame by feeling automatically obligated to answer her question and had no idea how to turn it around. I choked and just went silent and awkwardly looked around and then she walked away. Then I proceeded to get trashed and just kept playing guitar by myself all night like a chode.

    Even now I’m trying to understand that shit. This was like over a year ago but if anyone has any advice about how to handle that in the future I’d appreciate it. I’m starting to get the general idea that answering someone’s questions to you is falling into their Frame and you want to avoid this with women.

    But yeah. In a way, it can be MORE frustrating to get “freebie IOI’s” because you look better and take care of yourself, or are DHVing in some way, but don’t have the Game to back it up.

    But the IOI’s are definitely there. I’m 5’11” and am an average looking guy and I definitely noticed a spike in “freebie IOI’s” from women just by changing my clothes and my hair.

    Knowing what to do (i.e. Game) with those IOI’s is the real key. I still had to deal with a lot of Blue Pill frustration, like, knowing I looked so much better now so why am I not getting laid?

    All women have to do is show up and look good. That’s how it works. Men can look good or not look good but either way their Game has to be up to par or women will see them as roadkill. More than a few times I’ve been the best looking and coolest dressed guy at parties and I’d end up by myself on the bottom floor drinking jungle juice while all the girls were upstairs in different rooms fucking different guys at the party.

  45. Jesus fuck at that chart. Do you guys really agree with that?

    Shit on a brick, I need to be adding 2 whole points to all my girls lol. Pretty much all of them so far have been a solid 7-8.5 then, lol, and the 8 at the mall I hit on would be a 9 for sure.

    Goddamn, can someone post another chart? I want to see how that stands here.

    But damn, almost all those girls in that chart are plain as shit lol.

  46. EhIntellect
    Honestly, how may artisan dog biscuit, fancy cupcake and dildo pure romance party representatives do we need?

    A whole lot of “work” that women are paid for is just makework. That Oppenheimer commercial is part of a larger thing, as Dalrock pointed out.

    It’s like this…

  47. @Softie – You feeling a little mad at the ladies? Here’s what I disagree with: “It’s not easy being a woman.” Watching them move back and forth constantly, trying to meet their conflicting priorities and manage their “emotions-first” approach to life makes me empathize with them.

    Don’t wish they were different, wish you were better…Not in the sense of shaming yourself, but rather it’s time for you to reach way deep down inside, grasp that self-loathing voice you cater to way too much, and rip it out of you. If you do, you will have a glimpse of the broad horizons splayed out before you. It’s easier said than done but sometimes just seeing how it’s all so self-imposed and unnecessary is enough. Gotta be able to plant a better vision and idea about yourself inside your head, brah.

    Today, how you choke, you can deal with this.

    Caveat: This is not the reco of a game pro, but a sales pro who know’s something about game.

    Exercise: Go talk to ugly and fat women exclusively. Work through A1 and A2 with them. I do this a lot. Practice takeaways, look for attraction, see when she starts qualifying. The experience of seeing how predictable it is, like you’ve got to tease and dhv and spike early on, even with a fatty sometimes, is so eye opening. Human mating behavior is predictable. It can be gamed. This shit works. Say she’s working a booth at a fair of some sort and it’s 11 am and she’s just starting and isn’t at all sociable. Can you spike her? Can you calibrate your negs to the hotness/attitude of the girl?

    Do this. Go to a bar and talk to the ugliest chick in the place. You won’t get that bottom falling out of your stomach thing, I promise. You will also find it much easier to relax and self-amuse. Hell, be smart and just befriend her – friend-zone her ass. Fyi, if you’ve never friend-zoned a woman, well, you should do it at least once. Fat girls sometimes have hot friends, and she’s used to her guy friends fucking her hot friends anyway.

    Also, I’m going to rat your ass out here on a girl you are just sitting on. I won’t give out her name, but she did lament that her phone didn’t have a camera, cuz she wanted to send you a picture of her pussy. Dude, what the fuck? Seriously? Call her. Don’t text. Tell her you want to come over to her place later, ask her if she will be around, if her mom will be home etc. Don’t comment directly on sex, but do focus on having the logistics right. I believe that if you simply lean in to kiss her you that she will literally attack you. You may have to straighten your story out about why you were such a geek last time. I told you the “M is trying to lock me down and I was feeling guilty about her, but in fact, I’ve never said I was just with her. I was confused and didn’t want to start something I wasn’t ready to finish”, so you can be congruent again. Funniest thing about DHV and women’s assessment of this shit is that it doesn’t have to be believable, it just has to be plausble, lol. You really can get her to re-frame the entire previous visit down to you trying to be a loyal boyfriend, not a complete AFC. Bring forward the assertive Softie, tease, be funny, sexualize – she’ll go off like a cork from a bottle of champagne.

    Of course I could be wrong, but you need to field report that shit here some more, she sounds exactly like the freaky slut you need to break you free of “The One”. It’s biological. One only cures OneItis by sticking his dick into another woman. Period. Go forth and bang this girl silly. I can only imagine what she and her mom said to each other after you left, like I bet her mom said, “Jesus Christ, what do you have to do to get a guy to fuck you these days?” I’m not kidding…

  48. @sentient

    GSP is 5’10” and 170…

    I should say “okay” as in, in the context of world-class athletes. It’s a great body relative to just normal people lol.

    @hank

    But damn, almost all those girls in that chart are plain as shit lol.

    welllllll…

    if they’re all “plain as shit” and you aren’t banging girls at that level, then that must mean…….

    and if you ‘could’ bang girls at that level then congrats, you’re top 20% and just trying to break in to like the top 5%

    @rollo
    I’ve always said that if a man can stay in shape, even marginally, keep his BF% in the “normal” range, put on a marginal bit of muscle, be Red Pill aware and Game savvy, he’ll place himself well beyond the SMV of the 68%+ of men in his demographic.

    This will be enough to put him to where he’s banging the average american woman NSA on the reg, sure, i.e. top 20%-ish percent.

    But to get the thin hotties, if we change NOTHING ELSE….that dude needs to Live and Breathe the red pill and have some rock solid game skill. OR keeping the game you describe constant….he needs to get in GREAT shape (bf no higher than 8%) and put on AT LEAST 20 pounds of lean muscle mass (prob no more than like 40 pounds tho) from his point of physical origin.

    Shit man, half of the confidence that I have comes from like…knowing JUST HOW MUCH I’ve had to do to get to where I am.

    . Yes, fat women are getting laid, but is that due to lesser men’s thirst or are these fat women holding out for better-than-merited men of higher SMV pandering to their social media fueled egos?

    Ok but the AVERAGE NORMAL AMERICAN WOMAN = fat.

    So unless you’re saying that the only dudes giving these women NSA/FWB/FB dick are “lesser” men, liiiiiike….their inflated egos come from the correct place: decent good-looking somewhat alpha dudes are paying them attention, i.e. FUCKING them. They aren’t “holding out” on that level. Maybe they’re holding out wrt a relationship, but that’s not what any of us are talking about atm.

    And as you go up the scale to like…..a thin, cute woman, then thanks to Tinder, Instagram, etc. you may have local celebs paying them attention. Before long, you have bonafide athletes and rockstars…..

    I see it all the time.

    Dudes love to talk shit and about how low ranking women are or whatever but the reality never matches that lol.

  49. @hank
    “Shit on a brick, I need to be adding 2 whole points to all my girls lol. Pretty much all of them so far have been a solid 7-8.5 then, lol, and the 8 at the mall I hit on would be a 9 for sure.”

    I had a similar reaction. My next thought was, well perhaps I never really perceived the bottom third of the chart before because they’ve been invisible to me so that skewed my data set.

    Shit, that makes me sound like a chick!

  50. Let’s science this fatties and sex stuff. Some interesting research out there.

    1. For women, the number of sexual partners decreases with increasing physical attractiveness.

    2. Very physically attractive women are more likely to form exclusive relationships than to form purely sexual relationships.

    3. Attractive women are less likely to have sexual intercourse within the first week of meeting a partner.

    4. Underweight and normal-weight women are more likely to report romantic experience.

    5. Overweight women report approximately 10% more partners than normal-weight women whereas obese women report approximately 10% fewer partners.

    6. For women the effect of being underweight on within-relationship outcomes resembles the effect of being very physically attractive.

    http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/study-suggests-pretty-women-casual-sex/

    The article is pretty interesting, the study is cited in the article, but then the author goes on to talk about how this works out for black women who want a black man, and what it’s like in Atlanta. How the high value guys can now demand sex from the high value women on the come, because they are so few and the less hot girls put out more.

    Makes ya go hmmm…Like if hot girls are the ones riding the cock carousel, why are they having less casual sex?

  51. @softek

    “But the IOI’s are definitely there. I’m 5’11” and am an average looking guy and I definitely noticed a spike in “freebie IOI’s” from women just by changing my clothes and my hair.”

    I thought the Great Looks/Subcomms Debate of 2016 was compulsory curriculum around here.

    Most likely you gave yourself permission to feel confident and good, and had a relaxed body language, you were talking calmly and slowly, and generally appeared comfortable (so called good subcomms), because of the fresh clothes.

  52. @scribblerg

    lol

    FIRST OF ALL, while we in the manosphere, PUA, TRP, TRM, etc. HONE IN on where a woman’s nature can lead her —> > 30 sexual partners, quick lays, lots of ONS, group sex, whatever else….

    YA it’s important to remember that that isn’t the norm. It’s just MORE COMMON than most guys think.

    Hotties simply have fewer options to satisfy their baseline hypergamy. For ex, a legit 8 is really only going to want a dude who is 8+.

    Now, because the rough metric of SMV for women is looks (and I mean, you can say it’s anywhere from 60-80%), an 8 woman is roughly one that has 8 looks.

    So dudes who are 8+ lookswise are fairly rare — maybe 1/10-1/20. Then you have the fact that they will need some level of game (if they’re an 8) to sate that hypergamy and increase their value.

    I mean, right there, you’re eliminating a shit ton of guys from that 8’s short-term sex/dating pool. She’ll also accept male lookswise 9’s with not much, if any, game. She’ll accept male looks 7’s with really tight game (2 point add)…..but even including all those….her options are just limited.

    She isn’t running into those guys too often.

  53. @MrT

    Most likely you gave yourself permission to feel confident and good, and had a relaxed body language, you were talking calmly and slowly, and generally appeared comfortable (so called good subcomms), because of the fresh clothes.

    http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/the-house-of-anubis/images/f/fc/You_know_thats_right.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131202160812

    there’s really no more powerful tool in the game than just being relaxed and present in the moment and letting the world pass through you.

    I can’t stress that enough. Like, just letting go of your ego and pride completely.

    It’s very hard to get there, and I mean, it only comes in short bursts for me. But when it happens….you can feel how differently the world responds to you. It’s a way better way to live than trying trying trying tactics tactics tactics…..

  54. @SJF

    I don’t really try to be a mentor at the moment. Until I have my own shit in line, I don’t want to pretend to be any kind of good example. Maybe I’m a good example of a student, but a mentor? Nah, I don’t really see myself as one. I’ve just been at the class long enough that I can give other students a few pointers, shove a book in their face, and then give them my take on said book when they get stuck where I already did.

    Most guys don’t make it past the pointers. A lot of them get the slightest taste of a red pill and vomit it up, determined never to touch it again. Their reactions range from mildly offended to shaking with rage. Until I feel like my life has become an example to live by where I can say, “Well, here’s what I’ve done and it’s worked. Here’s what you’ve done and how its failed. Here’s where the theory underlying my good decisions also predicts the results of your bad decision,” I won’t presume to be any kind of mentor. If I’m going to face down that kind of anger, I’d rather be 100% confident in the theory (as I am right now) and confident in my own ability to apply it without fail (which I am not).

    The bartender I’m friends with had a date come up first time we were supposed to go hang, then I had vacation for two weeks after, and we’ve not had a chance to get together in the two weeks since. That’s still a work in progress. I’ll post FRs when that does happen.

    My efforts in forming good bonds with other males are pushing forward slowly as I already know what you mentioned; it’s not necessarily an explicit thing, so the indirect and slower route is a must. There’s just a lot of chaff to sift through and I’ve got other efforts I’m making, particularly on pushing skills up for side projects. I’m working extensively on video and sound editing at the moment for some YouTube ventures that might translate in to some decent side cash once I’m on the road, and I’m working more on my own code for a couple ideas in my spare time as well. And lifting. And running. And rebuilding two motorcycles over the winter in preparation to live on the road.

    @Rollo

    On further reflection of what you’ve written in the article, I’ve always “gotten away” with behavior other Beta guys couldn’t. Like for a long time now I’ve managed to be humorously crass to the point of raunchy in the work place, and never once faced penalties for it. Indeed the women are the first ones to grin and laugh and say “That’s just Sun!” usually.

    In fact I can recall when we were having a get together at one of my bosses’ place, there was a moment when his wife turns to me and says, “You’re racist!”

    “No I’m not, I’ve had friends from and dated… pretty much every race I’ve ever met.”

    “So you’re just saying your PENIS isn’t racist.”

    “Correct. He does not dick-scriminate.”

    Whole room including my boss dies laughing, his wife throws a big hug around me with a huge grin. I guess to me I’ve always been fast enough with the humor to bend or break the rules, but I’ve only had one affair spawning from it. Probably because that’s the only time to that point I’d worked with a remotely attractive woman.

    While I’ve always been terrible at the getting laid angle, it seems I’ve always had a natural affinity for making people laugh even on subjects that should be verboten in the office and around co-workers. Partly due to intelligence (and the humor found from it), and partly due to simply not giving a fuck if I tanked my career since I’ve got no wife and kids and am not easily embarrassed.

    Hrm… maybe I’ve always had a bit more natural Alpha than I realized but just didn’t know how to capitalize on it sexually…

    @Zhu Wuneng

    Interesting name choice.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/rRGMu2D3QV2cU/giphy.gif

  55. @scribblerg

    3. Attractive women are less likely to have sexual intercourse within the first week of meeting a partner.

    Was thinking it may be madonna/whore complex.

    “This ones special, lets not fuck this up, lets try provider game, this is not a hoe after all…”

    But dont have time to look into the study so just a first glance guess.

  56. Scray
    She isn’t running into those guys too often.

    Yeah, and the flip side is: she literally can’t see the other guys. They don’t exist.

    Do. Not. Exist.

    A couple of years back I found that I could walk into a coffee joint in “grey man” mode, sit down, and actually make myself “pop” into view. Actually had a couple of 20-something girls look startled one time when I did this trick; changing state from “grey” to “HERE!” changed my subcommunications which made me “pop” into their field of view. Probably in their perception I just magically appeared in a chair at the next table. Because they literally did not notice me walk in and sit down.

    Hypergamy explains a lot of things. Scray’s on the mark here.

  57. @Anon

    Yeah, and the flip side is: she literally can’t see the other guys. They don’t exist.

    Nah, I don’t go that far.

    Other guys….let’s say the middle 68% or so, do get laid. They just have to make promises and get into relationships and provide.

    She doesn’t see them until they are providing her with resources/benefits should be the saying.

  58. Re: fatties

    They don’t exist to me anymore outside of social circles (she’s a friend of my friend so I’m being pleasant and fun but not interested in her), work (so long as she does her job well, she’s just another person I’m working with), or as an employee somewhere I’m patronizing. When I’m out and around, I pretty much ignore the fatties. The last time one DID try to force herself in to existence by insulting me then bragging about her PhD in something-or-other, I told her to drop 150lbs if she wanted her opinion to matter to me.

    The more I’ve begun to value myself and acknowledge FI attempts to reduce the effort required of women to find partners, the more I’ve given myself permission to ignore or show open disdain for fat/bitchy chicks. Combine that with a tendency to more easily pass shit tests from women regardless of attractiveness and I think I’ve reached a much healthier place where I know my own value and therefore insist on women bringing value as well if they want my attention.

  59. Scray
    Probably a definition issue. To me an 8 is not even going to recognize the existence of an ordinary man, a 5, or a 6, or even a not ordinary man, 7. She can’t see them. She can only see 8’s with Game and 9’s and 10’s, and as you say, she doesn”t run into them all that often.

    She doesn’t see them until they are providing her with resources/benefits should be the saying.

    Provider game at the level of a female 8? Dude, she almost certainly provides for herself just fine one way or another.

    Gonna disagree with you on this one. Real-deal HB 8’s are not likely to respond to pure Provider game; 5’s don’t even need it, right? Cripes, there’s a provider tree as far as she’s concerned, just go pick another one when you need him.

    IMO they have to see a man to be interested, and that gets back to all the subcoms.

  60. @scray

    welllllll…

    if they’re all “plain as shit” and you aren’t banging girls at that level, then that must mean…….

    and if you ‘could’ bang girls at that level then congrats, you’re top 20% and just trying to break in to like the top 5%

    well lets get a consensus first, because from what I am reading here most guys agree with me.

    AgentP says:

    I had a similar reaction. My next thought was, well perhaps I never really perceived the bottom third of the chart before because they’ve been invisible to me so that skewed my data set.

    Shit, that makes me sound like a chick!

    Mersonia says:

    I thought the 9’s on the chart were 6’s . I just assumed everyone held it to different standards in real life

    KFG says:

    I have addressed that chart both here and at RoK. The scale is skewed low at the high end. I’ve even addressed the specific woman one of the arrows is pointing to, as she is my type, a slender, red-headed Scot.

    So its pretty consistent that guys aren’t agreeing with this chart. It isn’t guys saying “yeah, that chick would be a 7, but her right eye is .00008 millimeters lower than the left, so that make her a 2.” Its guys looking at most of these girls and thinking they are plain. So when you have the same opinion from guys like me who don’t like white chicks AND guys like KFG who do, then you are seeing a consistent consensus across all tastes. That says to me this chart isn’t accurate…at least at the higher levels (7-9).

    Lets see if we can find or MAKE a chart that guys here can agree on. THEN we can start talking what our individual ratings say us lol.

  61. @anon

    Provider game at the level of a female 8? Dude, she almost certainly provides for herself just fine one way or another.

    Gonna disagree with you on this one. Real-deal HB 8’s are not likely to respond to pure Provider game; 5’s don’t even need it, right? Cripes, there’s a provider tree as far as she’s concerned, just go pick another one when you need him.

    Ok.

    Go out tonight and start lying to chicks and just set aside about 300-500$ to blow TONIGHT on drinks/whatever.

    1) lie to them and tell them all sorts of bullshit about how you want to be in a relationship with them
    2) buy all their shit and whatever they want

    report back and tell me what happens.

    the fact is that ya, they will start to notice you.

    It doesn’t matter if she “provides for herself.” Women respond to dudes dropping resources on them and making promises. There’s a reason tons of dudes either a) DO EXACTLY THIS WITH HOT WOMEN or b) LIE TO HOT WOMEN ABOUT DOING THIS SHIT.

    it’s because IT WORKS.

    does it work as well as having good game? no. you take on a bunch of bullshit obligations and conditions and put yourself in a provider frame.

    does it work better than ZERO/NOTHING/ZILCH? ya.

    and 5’s DO need it. that’s how bottom 80% guys score with the 5’s…it’s the same fucking thing lol.

  62. @hank

    well lets get a consensus first, because from what I am reading here most guys agree with me.

    and….?

    I have a better idea. They can put pics up of their FBs who are hotter than the “9’s” (their 6’s who are easy to pull on a friday night).

    Dudes talk shit. Fact of life.

  63. @scray

    It isn’t about talking shit. No one he is saying “Yeah, my gf is totally hotter than any of THOSE bitches”. guys here are just trying to get a reference for what each person considers a 6, or a 8, or a 10.

    I’ve seen exactly zero dick measuring contests so far here.

    A nerdy ass dude could look at a couple or girls and tell you one was a 6 and one was a 10. There’s no chance he’d even get the 6, but he can still tell you which ones he thinks are hotter than the others, and how he’d compare to the others.

    That’s all we are trying to do…and its something I am very interested in since I’ve noticed here and in other parts of my life, that my rating of girls tends to vary quite a bit from most guys (some girls they think are hot I think are average, some girls they think are so-so I think are hot) So I would like there to be an accurate chart here so I could kind of gauge things better. That’s it lol. No one is bragging or anything. Guys just want a good reference…doesn’t mean they could actually bang any of them lol.

  64. @hank

    That’s it lol. No one is bragging or anything.

    dude, you have guys in here saying models and celebrities are 6’s….liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike, ya there’s some level of ego going on.

    A nerdy ass dude could look at a couple or girls and tell you one was a 6 and one was a 10. There’s no chance he’d even get the 6, but he can still tell you which ones he thinks are hotter than the others, and how he’d compare to the others.

    yes but that same nerdy dude would be more likely to be harsh in his assessment because of his inexperience….where do you think the 2/10 pointy elbow meme comes from?

    I mean, it’s cool to consider the AVERAGE american woman to be a 3 or whatever…but that’s not objective reality, that’s like, someone’s personal ToTH bullshit. Separating the two is very important, esp when you experience shit that’s just part of the game, like dry spells.

  65. @hank

    any time a chart appears like this, dudes are really quick to dick measure.

    here’s another one:
    http://www.realmendrinkwhiskey.com/how-to-rate-girls/

    first comment:
    You’re doing it wrong, the 8 and all others below should be taken off 2 points. 5 is supposed to be average, not ugly as shit. (not saying i’d go for a 5).

    here’s another one:
    http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/official-guide-to-rating-a-girl-10-with-pics-test-at-the-end.452665169/

    a few comments in:
    “You didn’t post a girl above a 6”

    here’s another one:

    http://www.rooshv.com/the-1-10-scale

    comment:
    “I think you are off by one point. That 7 is a 6, that 8 is a 7 and that 9 is an 8.

    Here is a real 9”

    dudes just talk shit lol. they can say ‘they’re just trying to find the truth’ but the evidence more or less points toward “dick measuring at all times.”

  66. Scray, you just moved the goalposts.
    Now you’re saying “blow $300 to $500 in one night on chicks:

    It doesn’t matter if she “provides for herself.” Women respond to dudes dropping resources on them and making promises. There’s a reason tons of dudes either a) DO EXACTLY THIS WITH HOT WOMEN or b) LIE TO HOT WOMEN ABOUT DOING THIS SHIT.

    it’s because IT WORKS.

    does it work as well as having good game? no. you take on a bunch of bullshit obligations and conditions and put yourself in a provider frame.

    But before you said this:


    Other guys….let’s say the middle 68% or so, do get laid. They just have to make promises and get into relationships and provide.

    She doesn’t see them until they are providing her with resources/benefits should be the saying.

    Two different things. First you said basicallly “provider game works”, now you are saying “PRETEND provider game works”.

    Pick a position and stick with it.

    My position: PRETEND provider game on a real HB8 or above will be 4 digits at minimum. $500 isn’t even the cover charge.

    Those girls just aren’t going to “see” any man who rates at a 7 or lower on their personal scale. Ok, maybe if a man lights up his e-cig with $100 they might notice him for a while, but…nah.

    Inner game / subcoms, they notice.

    Don’t drag us back down into the “looks matter, bro!” swamp again.

  67. @scray

    dude, you have guys in here saying models and celebrities are 6’s….liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike, ya there’s some level of ego going on.

    lol so a model or a celebrity HAS to be attractive?

    just compare:

    http://media3.popsugar-assets.com/files/2012/03/11/1/192/1922398/afebe6c966660a22_141156368_10.xxxlarge/i/Jennifer-Lawrence-flashed-smile.jpg

    and contrast:

    http://66.media.tumblr.com/59a98911367a2eff948a51b2c4e42cd9/tumblr_n1pyv0laE31tqoojmo1_1280.jpg

    I don’t like white chicks, especially scrawny blondes, but margot robbie is super hot lol. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a white girl as attractive as her IRL. I’ve definitely seen white girls as pretty as jennifer lawrence lol, I see them all the time lol.

    Not all celebrities are as attractive as the others. Just because you are a “celebrity” or a “model” doesn’t mean you will be super hot — you probably will be, but you shouldn’t throw out someone’s opinion just because they think one specific celebrity is just above average in looks.

  68. @anon

    Two different things. First you said basicallly “provider game works”, now you are saying “PRETEND provider game works”.

    they aren’t two different things.

    Now you’re saying “blow $300 to $500 in one night on chicks:

    ya provider game.

    and pretend vs “real” provider game….

    it’s the same thing.

    the reason why PRETEND provider game works is that there’s the promise of PROVIDING.

    (hint: it falls apart once the lie is up)

    My position: PRETEND provider game on a real HB8 or above will be 4 digits at minimum. $500 isn’t even the cover charge.

    Those girls just aren’t going to “see” any man who rates at a 7 or lower on their personal scale. Ok, maybe if a man lights up his e-cig with $100 they might notice him for a while, but…nah.

    yeah that’s why there aren’t rich dudes with no games who have hb8’s right? cause provider shit doesn’t work in its own way?

    that’s why chicks aren’t always mad at dudes lying to them about their finances and other bullshit, right? because provider game has no impact?

    get out more.

    500$ in one night is plenty enough FOR YOU TO DISCOVER THAT PROVIDER GAME INDEED DOES PUT YOU ON A HOT CHICK’S RADAR, which is why so many dudes do it.

    anyway, the field is the field…listen or not lol I’m out there at the clubs every weekend, I’m telling you what goes down.

    @hank

    lol so a model or a celebrity HAS to be attractive?

    they don’t have to be, but that’s the tendency, and to argue otherwise is borderline nonsense.

    and uhhhhhh are you asking to compare a magazine cover photo with a normal photo?

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/89/b4/3b/89b43b1ff516804201dc03f5d4744a2b.jpg

    OMG WAT A FUCKING 6! lol you guys….

  69. @sentient

    you can post pics in the pursuit if this silly point you’re trying to make — not all celebs/models are attractive — that no one ever argued, because the real point you have to contend with — they generally are, and generally a normal dude trying to call a celeb a 6 (you know, the Katy Perry, Jenn Lawrence, etc. types) is just dick waving if he’s trying to talk relative to the general population.

    Now, relative to your own personal bullshit, maybe. But like I said…a 5 is 5’3 160 pounds. Be cereal….Jenn Lawrence is more than 1 point past that.

  70. @ hank

    Hey man!!!

    I don’t have an opinion on Jennifer Lawrence, other than she’s over-rated.

    Funny thing though, Margot makes my dick jump ( h/t to Sentient ) when I see her in certain movies ( Wolf of Wall Street, Focus ), but she doesn’t do so when I see her being interviewed.
    She’s pretty and all, but her subs make her gorgeous…in movies.

    Know what? I saw Ivanka Trump years ago, coming out of Trump Tower and she is fucking gorgeous imo. And tall too. She must be at least 5’11”. And I, like you, don’t really go in for the blonde girls like that, but Ivanka was smokin’ hot irl. She looks better in person than on tv.

    http://i.imgur.com/FXesxsY.jpg

    https://sylg1.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/ivanka-trump-sexy.jpg

    I mean, I get the whole HB thing, but I have a real hard time utilizing it here specifically because I am aware of my biases and personal tastes.

    I ” see through ” make up and hair extensions and push-up bras, and clothing that ” accentuates “, so I tend to downgrade chicks depending on how much ” help ” they have in how they look.

    Conversely I also tend to upgrade chicks that are pretty without make-up and all of that other stuff.

  71. @scray

    you can post pics in the pursuit if this silly point you’re trying to make — that no one ever argued, because the real point you have to contend with — they generally are, and generally a normal dude trying to call a celeb a 6 (you know, the Katy Perry, Jenn Lawrence, etc. types) is just dick waving if he’s trying to talk relative to the general population.

    lol a 6 is still better than most girls. Thats WHY we are trying to rate these girls, to figure out exactly where they stand.

    ofc a guy could say he didn’t find lawrence or perry attractive…especially now they are older. Its be ridiculous if they said they were like a 3. lol, they are obviously better than average looking. But that doesn’t mean they have to be 9s or 10s.

    You can be better than average looking but still not be super hot. Just because most girls are ugly fat fucks doesn’t mean a girl who isn’t fat is automatically super hot. It would make her in high demand, yes, because just being in shape and reasonably good looking is a rarity these days. But that doesn’t automatically make you hot. She’ll get hit on more often, and feel she is hotter than she actually is because of all the attention she gets, but that doesn’t make her objectively hotter just because skinny 6’s are fairly uncommon.

  72. @hank

    Thats WHY we are trying to rate these girls, to figure out exactly where they stand.

    the chart above does a good job of providing the objective reality. my contention is that this “OMG BRO NAH THOSE 9’s are 6’s BRO” is just ego ToTH personal shit, and that there’s not really a desire to find the truth in it…it’s just more about ego.

    It is JUST LIKE fatty women cheering each other on about how high their standards are and shit.

    On the one hand, personal standards are cool and push yourself. On the other hand, you gotta know reality.

    Just because most girls are ugly fat fucks doesn’t mean a girl who isn’t fat is automatically super hot.

    never said that…

    She’ll get hit on more often, and feel she is hotter than she actually is because of all the attention she gets,

    You say “hotter than she actually is…”

    uhhh if dudes are giving the attention associated with a 7 to her, then she’s a 7. you don’t get to be like NAH BRO SHE’S REAAAAAALY A 6.

    Nah, if the market is moving her way, then the market has spoken. Sorry.

    Now maybe the 2016 market is FUCKED UP or YOU WISH it were different to better comport with your PERSONAL SHIT…but the market is the market.

  73. @blax

    yeah, ivanka I agree is very hot.

    see, that’s what I am talking about. neither blax and I are super into the skinny blonde types, but we’d both rate ivanka at around a 9. THAT is useful knowledge.

  74. @ scray

    ” Margot “hottest woman evaaaar” Robbie.”

    Lol. Look, I’m not even gonna lie, I replayed that scene from Wolf of Wall street where she’s on the floor teasing DiCaprio about not wearing panties a few dozen times.

    She’s hot. No doubt.

    She’s just ” hotter ” when she is in a character ( I know, who gives a shit…lol ).

  75. @scray

    so? If a 6 is all there is, she’s be treated like a 10 sure. But anyone who looks at all the kinds of girls in the world would rate her as just above average. You could still objectively note that she is a 6.

    We’re not here to note SMV in the present marketplace. We’re just here to get a benchline of “girl b is prettier than girl a. Girl c is prettier than girl b, and would generally be considered very hot by most guys.”

    THATS ALL WE ARE DOING

    You’re just coming in a trying to psychoanalyze that this is us dickwaving or whatever. All we are trying to do is get a reference.

    So based on what blax said, if he or I talk about a white 9, we both know we are talking about a girl who looks about like Ivanka.

    THATS ALL WE ARE DOING

    Jesus christ its not that hard to understand.

  76. @ hank

    That’s true. I’d rate Ivanka waaaayyyy up there in 9 territory.

    But I am aware of a few of my personal biases working their way into the scenario.

    Like, I am a sucker for tall chicks. I dig long necks. I like boobs ( not sure if hers are 100% real. They could be ” mommy boobs ” from having kids though…), and I demand long hair.

    And even without makeup the difference isn’t ” shocking ”

    http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2012918/1024.ivanka.mh.101812.jpg

  77. @Hank

    Lol so keyboard jockeying over shit that doesn’t reflect reality, i.e. current SMV value 2016. I don’t engage in that so I’ll leave y’all to it.

  78. @hank

    “THAT is useful knowledge.”

    Useful for what?

    Also this objectively assesing beauty is overrated imo. At least if you are pinpointing a certain number like Ivanka is a 9. What if scray and I say she is a 7? How will that affect your calculations?

  79. the chart above does a good job of providing the objective reality. my contention is that this “OMG BRO NAH THOSE 9’s are 6’s BRO” is just ego ToTH personal shit, and that there’s not really a desire to find the truth in it…it’s just more about ego.”

    bruh the girls on the chart weren’t hot……… if we go by that… I know tons of 9 and 8’s have tons of them in my social circles
    see tons of 7’s walking around everywhere anytime i go out at anytime of the day.

    Maybe its different where you live.

Speak your mind

%d bloggers like this: