Sexual Zoning

sex_zone

Höllenhund brought up an interesting thought a few weeks ago:

This reminds me of something I wanted to ask here in general. The general narrative about MGTOW in the ‘sphere is that they are “avoiding women”. A more general narrative pushed in the mainstream media by Zimbardo, Hymowitz, Milo and other blue/purple pill journalists is that a growing number of young men are avoiding women.

What does “avoiding women” precisely mean in the current socio-cultural context in the West? The word “avoid” entails some sort of active, deliberate, protective measure. My problem with that is that the “avoidance of women”, or a breakaway from women doesn’t look like that at all in practice today, because the social context of male-female interaction has changed completely in the last 2-3 decades.

This is something our pal Novaseeker has described before. In the bygone Western social system, young people were expected to regularly interact with one another in controlled, regulated environments, in a way that fostered productive, long-term, monogamous, assortative relationships. This was a sort of “holistic” milieu, so to speak, where young people treated one another as potential future partners, sexual and otherwise, in a socially regulated manner, in all cases when they were permitted to interact. This was even the norm in workplaces where both men and women were present. The average man found a girlfriend through his extended family or social circle, because families and social circles were normally large.

What we have today is the complete opposite: “sexual zoning”. Some mixed-sex environments, like the workplace, schools and campuses, are made completely asexual – sterile, so to speak. No sexualized interactions are permitted to take place. This is demanded by law and expected by society. In such environments, you’re supposed to treat members of the opposite sex strictly as colleagues or professionals, non-sexual beings. (Hot men are allowed to get away with more, of course, but that’s another issue.) Other mixed-sex environments, on the other hand, like nightclubs, are expected to be full-on sexual. Everybody there knows that all interactions entail the future possibility of casual sex. It’s basically a meat market. You’re expected to hit on girls, and girls expect to be hit on by attractive men. Socializing in these environments requires action, engagement. If you want to find a partner, either just for sex or something more, you have to go there, you have to have Game etc.

In other words, avoidance of women in the old days was an anti-social act of disengagement that was frowned upon. Today, avoidance of women merely means that you’re not expending excess energy and time to do certain things. It’s an “action” with few or no social repercussions – you won’t be socially ostracized or something. But technically it’s not an action. You’re basically “avoiding” women by not hitting the clubs on Saturday night. You’re avoiding them through simple inaction. You can have a full-time job, or go to college, have a social circle, have hobbies, buddies etc., basically a normie life, and still “avoid” women.

I thought this was an interesting observation because there is a stark contradiction in how these sexual zones are presented to men by women. From an old books perspective, men are still expected to be the initiators. It is incumbent upon men to be the sex that approaches and expresses intimate interest in women, and men who don’t, or who fail to build themselves into acceptable mates for women are shamed as being perpetual adolescents or just “giving up.” Our feminine-primary social mandate still promotes the expectation that men will prepare for, and initiate with, women.

However, from a new books perspective men are, as Höllenhund illustrates, expected to know their place in respect to whatever sexual zone they find themselves in, as well as having an understanding of how they are perceived in the SMP. So, in an asexual zone such as a college campus or the workplace, men are expected to know their SMV and act or not act accordingly. Men not meeting or exceeding what would make for an optimized Hypergamy with women are expected not to initiate or approach. In fact, this expected understanding extends to sexual zones and fosters the avoidance Höllenhund talks about here.

For all of the handwringing from feminine-primary gender pundits about men ‘dropping out’ of life or the SMP, it is this contradiction in atmosphere that promotes the avoidance. Hypergamy, being the prime directive of westernized societies, is figuratively best served when women are in complete and unilateral control of sexual selection. Thus, we see laws and social dictates installed to encourage men to self-select themselves out of the process and make this selection easier for women. Men will be shamed for not initiating and not approaching, but simultaneously be held accountable for as much as hate crimes if they step outside what they are expected to know are their appropriate sexual zones.

http://time.com/3852117/millennials-sex-parents-boomers/

Recently there’s been a spate of articles all attempting to explain why millennials aren’t getting after it in an age when it’s never been easier to hook up. Try as they will, nearly all of the explanations fail to account for how sexual zoning has affected the sexual marketplace today. Millennials have the ‘hook up generation’ reputation, but statistically they’re not doing much fucking.

Noah Patterson, 18, likes to sit in front of several screens simultaneously: a work project, a YouTube clip, a video game. To shut it all down for a date or even a one-night stand seems like a waste. “For an average date, you’re going to spend at least two hours, and in that two hours I won’t be doing something I enjoy,” he said.

It’s not that he doesn’t like women. “I enjoy their companionship, but it’s not a significant part of life,” said Patterson, a Web designer in Bellingham, Washington.

He has never had sex, although he likes porn. “I’d rather be watching YouTube videos and making money.” Sex, he said, is “not going to be something people ask you for on your résumé.”

One aspect that these largely millennial writers themselves seem oblivious to is the complexities of sexual zones that shift constantly for guys. In 2016 hooking up is easy, we’ve got Red Pill awareness and we have instantaneous communication, but what we don’t have are clearly defined sexual zones. Put a guy whose social intelligence is sub par into the wrong zone and it’s understandable that he has better things to occupy himself with that he ‘enjoys’.

This is a common refrain from MGTOWs. It’s usually some variation of  “why should I waste my time trying to untangle some girl’s head just to put myself at risk of a sexual harassment or rape accusation?”

Fred Flange had this comment a few weeks ago:

Co-sign, and this “soft MGTOW” observation ties in nicely with the WashPost’s “no sex please we’re collegiate” article. MGTOW is now socially subsidized and easy to implement: just do nothing! At college, don’t engage in class, or even better, “attend” the lectures on-line. Say no more in class or lab than you must, then leave. Start no convos, you won’t be dragged into any. All of this goes for cubicle workers: in the lunchroom, stare at your phone, or eat at your desk, or if you can, get outside but go alone. No feelings caught, no feelings hurt. Everybody gets nothing, therefore everybody wins.

Eventually you can learn the fine art of disappearance in urban settings: yes you occupy space, but other than someone bumping into you, it is possible to go anywhere without your registering with anyone in the vicinity, not even cops. You can switch it on and off like a light.

One possible corollary to look for: see if the “bros before homes” shaming begins to die down. It should. Because before that you patriamalarkey-preaching Tumblr-inas insisted you wanted that cheesy-bro to go? He’s GONE! Soft MGTOW is the mandated social paradigm, outside of “safe social zones” like public streets, malls, clubs, etc. plus in some workplaces and colleges it’s law. You’re going to complain about men obeying the law?

There’s also no shortage of articles decrying the absence of boys and young men these days too. The frequent bugbear in these always point to guys ‘dropping out’ and playing X-Box all day. From America’s Lost Boys:

Young men, significantly more so than young women, are stuck in life. Research released in May from the Pew Center documented a historic demographic shift: American men aged 18-30 are now statistically more likely to be living with their parents than with a romantic partner. This trend is significant, for one simple reason: Twenty- and thirtysomething men who are living at home, working part-time or not at all, are unlikely to be preparing for marriage. Hurst’s research says that these men are single, unoccupied, and fine with that—because their happiness doesn’t depend on whether they are growing up and living life.

Now, granted, this article presumes men’s adulthood ought to be measured by his capacity to get involved with a woman, support a family and maintain a steady job. It’s very hard for writers who tackle this topic to pull their heads out of the old books reasonings. Thus, the go-to answer to the question of ‘why do guys drop out?’ is video games. It’s far easier to goof on men as a whole if they can be made to look juvenile, lazy or stupid to the point men not knowing what’s good for them.

It would take a real effort to tackle the larger reasons as to why men drop out, and men like Samuel James (article author) would be forced to acknowledge the disincentives for men to participate in what his old books reasonings tell him is some mutually beneficial arrangement. Those disincentives don’t paint women in a very flattering light, so it’s much easier to dismiss them as garden variety misogyny.

The drop out generation are content with their lot in life because they’ve accepted the realities of a social order that debases men and manhood to being appliances to better serve women’s imperatives. And the risks of investing themselves in a relationship or finding the inner will to become better men for the sake of “growing up” are significant when the rules of engagement and the acceptable sexual zones are constantly changing.

The Damage Done By ‘Mattress Girl’

“Even in less extreme situations, young men are more skeptical of women’s ability or propensity to consent to sex, which some women on campus consider demeaning.

“I find that men are more and more interested in ensuring that I’m consenting before sex, which would seem like a good thing,” Columbia student Dylan Hunzeker said. “But sometimes I don’t necessarily feel that way. Especially when I have to answer a man’s question: ‘are you sure you’re not too drunk?’ Or ‘you want to have sex with me?’ In a sense, it’s annoying and debilitating to be constantly questioned about whether or not I have agency and am a sexual human being.”

“Men are scared of women on campus now, and fear breeds anger and prejudice. Women are frustrated by men, which inspires a lack of desire to collaborate for solutions.”

I would argue that a large majority of men accused of sexual harassment or even just suspected of impropriety are men who’ve found themselves in an environment they believed was an acceptable sexual zone. We are fast approaching a time when all zones will be so arbitrary and ambiguous that every environment with sexual potential will be avoided. This will have the effect of putting women into unilateral control of their own Hypergamy. It will be a state of Sadie Hawkins world – only women will make approaches on men and only those who match her Hypergamous ideal, an ideal fostered and reinforced by a steady diet of social media ego inflation.

It’s ironic that authors bemoaning the drop out generation of men never acknowledge the other side of the disincentives for men – those generated by a feminine-primary social narrative – the generation of women who remain unmarried well into their middle age. When this is explored, once again, it’s the result of the juvenile, ridiculous men that same narrative has created for itself.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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BK
BK
5 years ago

Rollo,
Interesting article on a tech entrepreneur trying to create masculine spaces for his sons and other male kids. Thought you might like it for your work on red pill parenting
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/23/magazine/the-anti-helicopter-parents-plea-let-kids-play.html

sfer
sfer
5 years ago

“Then I read about how all men are rapists, false rape accusations, divorce rape, too-drunk-to-consent, “enthusiastic affirmative consent,” yes means yes, morning-after regrets….there are just too many risks now to interacting with women even outside of work.” You are reading too much into this. Divorce is common, but women want to have sex with men so the rest of this is just scare stories that you are telling yourself for some reason. You were good with women before so figure out a way to be good again. I am an EE and women don’t dig EEs (except maybe Asian women… Read more »

kaminsky
kaminsky
5 years ago

@Hollenhund, Interesting response, thanks. You were pretty clear that it’s a ‘hypothetical’ that alphas will clean women up so I’m guessing you don’t think it’s so. I don’t see alphas changing much. They are off and running with the male imperative of nearly unlimited, varied sexual partners. They are the last ones to seek change because the new game plays into their imperative more than anyone else. Even the attractive CC riders are not getting their full-fledged ideal imperative (commitment from an alpha). The SMV will start to resemble a Northern latitude state college. The Greek system kids (about 10%… Read more »

sfer
sfer
5 years ago

Plus, things don’t magically get better.

Listen to yareally he has the good advice.

A problem that happens as you get older is that you lose friends to long term relationships and you don’t have the social circle to get women the way you used to. Yeareally has some great posts on building social capital. One easy way is to go to the same bar on the same night and be friendly to people in a non judgmental way. Figure out a way to add value to people.

sfer
sfer
5 years ago

If you are an EE, you don’t want to hit on anybody at work. There are probably just a couple of cute girls who everybody has a crush on. Why bother?

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

@ hoellenhund But women do respond to alpha behavior, and they are sensitive to changes in alpha attitudes. When the sexes change their social mores, it usually looks like this: 1. alphas change their attitudes and behavior 2. women adapt to alphas 3. betas adapt to women. Excellent point. Change is too gradual for the regular guy to perceive, and I include myself here. RP guys have higher sensitivity for subtle cultural shifts since we’re attuned to societal irregularities and don’t deny our gut instincts about what is best for men, reinforced by our empirical successes. RP rejects internalizing beta… Read more »

sfer
sfer
5 years ago

“”Cynicism is reality” my beta brother told me. He gave up on his marriage, kids and went his own way. I had to walk away from him and haven’t talked to him in years. Not a word. I don’t like it, but he was toxic, defeatest. He was trying to blow up my own marriage.”

I am not an asshole so I am not trying to blow up anybodies marriage, but your brother maybe just wanted to have somebody to do things with. Divorced dudes can be lonely. He could still be toxic though.

sfer
sfer
5 years ago

@scray

“Sorry, IRL, going after a thin 7 is going to be a tough one. Going after an 8? Also tough.
Cold Approach? LOL, tough. Anyway…..”

I am not worried since I just found out that Jennifer Lawrence is a 6

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

A big thank you to all here. Until natural masculinity can be unabashedly discussed and conventionally implemented my attempts at RP evangelism conversion always sound like these watered-down conversations. True examples from yesterday: Surgeon: My wife tells me what to do. I beg for action, she decides when. She wears the pants. Ha-Ha. (supplicating chuckles from the women present) Me: When did you voluntarily take them off and hand them over? Surgeon: When I got married. Me: You deserve better. Surgeon: I keep telling her that. Me: I saw your wife cut her long hair short. She’s changing her appearance… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

@sfer

Yeah I get that. That’s why I hated walking away from the understandable rage-fests and in the end anger at me. I don’t pretend to understand the heights of his frustration. He was just trying to figure it out with what he had. Thank you.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Kobayashi

@Sentient: They may want commitment but they’re willing to settle for seed, no?

WHat! You mean the house always wins…?!?

Bachelorocles
Bachelorocles
5 years ago

I admire MGTOW. I understand them and I don’t blame them. I often ask myself whether women are worth the aggravation or whether I would have anything to do with them were it not for sex. After all, lets face it: American women are assholes. Who wants to be with an asshole? Much of the criticism I hear leveled against MGTOW seems little more than chest thumping “my area team is better than your area team” BS. But, to me, the penultimate MGTOW lesson, one I incorporate, is that I CAN go my own way and if I were to… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Zhu Weneg I have been flailing around without much advancement over the last year (some of which is definitely the language barrier in this non-English-language country where I live). If you could send a note to yourself when you were just starting to learn game, what steps would you tell yourself to take? Because my results have been sporadic, I want to put together a game plan for getting better at game. I would do pretty much what I did over again… there is not a lot of magic to learning game and it isn’t that hard. 1. Believe it… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

sfer
I am not worried since I just found out that Jennifer Lawrence is a 6

Notice she’s 26, maybe 27 years old, too.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ ChumpNoMore The superzip thing is fascinating. Imo, the tendency of people to use external props as a way to elevate themselves and boost self esteem has always struck me as odd, in a Disneyland kind of way. I looked up my own zip code and it’s in the mid 20’s, lol. But I live in a wonderful mc/wc neighborhood, with multi million dollar homes nearby and beautiful streets lined with trees a couple of hundred years old. According to the map, I am a half mile away from a superzip, and the empire state building looms large from my… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ Zhu

Thanks for the kind words.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Validation and esteem must be internal.”

“@ Zhu, Thanks for the kind words.”

Laugh out loud. I see what you just did there Blax.

MikePhil
MikePhil
5 years ago

@Kobitashi – Good point there. When you do a cost/benefits analysis on the women you interact with, only you can decide if the chase is worth the catch. A lot of the time, it isn’t. I have a good friend that is MGTOW and is totally unaware of it. He works in the arts, makes a baseline salary (under $30k), is short and lacks confidence in approaching women. As a result, he’s completely invisible to the hot women he comes in contact with. I fully envision him going to his grave without a LTR or even a FEB. Despite that,… Read more »

rugby11
5 years ago
Reply to  MikePhil
Softek
Softek
5 years ago

@ walawala Jim Carrey’s situation scares the hell out of me. One of the hardest things I’ve been coming to terms with is she’s probably eventually going to commit suicide, if not sometime soon. The threats have been daily for months and she’s been in a downward spiral recently, substance abuse, losing friends because of her issues, etc. And everything I’ve done for her means absolutely nothing to her because it’s never enough. It’s like she has an insatiable void, a black hole, that just sucks everything into it. Feels like everything I’ve done for her was for nothing, and… Read more »

Agent P
Agent P
5 years ago

@EhIntellect Re your story about surgeon supplicating etc. I now have a routine with men like that, where I draw them out a bit for whatever reason, then when I hear shit like that, I am simply subtly demeaning about their self castration. I usually just adopt my shit eating grin and shake my head in mild disgust without saying anything. I find it’s a good way to let men know that their behavior is not worthy of respect from other men, much less from women. If it goes well they can challenge you on your reaction such as, “So… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

The foundation upon Fem-centrism is too brittle to be maintained long-term. Thermodyanmics requires all things back to disorder or in this case intersexual dynamics shift closer to the individual. Our culture provides an artiface of egalitarian equalism and requires and unsustainable amount of false promises, willing denial, non-existent wealth transfers to make it so. “Trends that can’t continue, won’t.” TRM is helpful for theory building, which provide frameworks for action and with enough motivation help men find workable solutions. Proof is in the pudding. I believe success begets success. I’m not well traveled, but I assume most of the developed… Read more »

MikePhil
MikePhil
5 years ago

@Kobiyashi- Second point of yours that I agree with… Your comment about the gynocentric zeitgeist (hope I spelled that right!) was completely on point. I’ve seen women 50-100 pounds heavier that me (I’m 200 myself) actually presenting themselves as viable sexual/ romantic choices to relatively good looking guys. My belief is that fat shaming has more than one meaning; it’s also meant to shame a guy into thinking that a man is less than a man for passing over a fatty. Well, our erections don’t work that way. No amount of sovial shaming and cries of Man Up are going… Read more »

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
5 years ago

So, riddle me this, Batman, why should I be pursuing…anything…with a woman? Make that cost-benefit analysis shift to pro-female. Well, it’s up to your own desires, goals and risk tolerance, as well as interest in making life changes, really. The critical initial question is what do you plan to do with your libido? In your late 30s it’s still there, provided you have healthy T levels. Do you plan to sate it with porn, or hookers or something like that? If so, you’re still dealing with women, in a way, but just doing it differently — in other words, you’re… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@sfr

I am not worried since I just found out that Jennifer Lawrence is a 6

lol

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah there’s a lot of that kind of 2/10 pointy elbow stuff around here and everywhere in the manosphere, generally.

you have to differentiate between like ‘oh this chick really isn’t MY TYPE’ i.e. which IMHO is what has them saying MODELS, ACTRESSES, AND CELEBS are “only 6’s”

and “LITERALLY in the real world this chick is just SLIGHTLY better than average.”

again, the average young woman is 5’3 and 160 pounds.

Novaseeker
Novaseeker
5 years ago

Well, our erections don’t work that way. No amount of sovial shaming and cries of Man Up are going to turn a heifer into a hottie Yeah it’s one of those core areas of female entitlement — they are entitled to an erection on demand, regardless of their appearance. They think men have unreasonable preferences, and that these are not based on not being able to become aroused because they seem to erroneously think that any man can become aroused by virtually any woman if she touches him properly — meaning that pretty much every woman is entitled to your… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

. I’ve seen women 50-100 pounds heavier that me (I’m 200 myself) actually presenting themselves as viable sexual/ romantic choices to relatively good looking guys. Well, our erections don’t work that way. No amount of sovial shaming and cries of Man Up are going to turn a heifer into a hottie this is such BS. NEWSFLASH: OVER 66% OF WOMEN IN THE U.S. ARE OVERWEIGHT OR OBESE — MOST OF THEM ARE HAVING SEX, meaning that THE VAST MAJORITY OF DUDES ARE GETTING IT UP FOR THESE ‘HEIFERS.’ Dudes who trend > 60% Pleasure of Sex fuck fatties/average weights (which… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

Wait “average” for a chick is 160?? and 5’3″??

Seriously? I’m 5’10” and 165 – and I’m not skinny or anything – just average. And I’m a dude.

DisgruntledEarthling
DisgruntledEarthling
5 years ago

I’ll just drop this here…

http://phys.org/news/2016-10-older-men-1950s-60s-blueprint.html

scray
scray
5 years ago

@Culum

Yeah.

The average weight of 20-30 y/o women is around 165, I think the median is 155, tho —> FYI still overweight by a good 15-20 pounds.

And lol no, you’re not average — lol wtf this is the kind of silliness that just pervades the manosphere — you weigh about 20 pounds less than the median dude.

Now, you notice how much you’re struggling and having to learn game?

YEAH, THIS IS PART OF THE REASON WHY

scray
scray
5 years ago

@kfg

Most of the chicks at the club look way diff without their makeup, too.

http://cdn.niketalk.com/f/f5/900x900px-LL-f5454df6_1-10girlrating.jpeg

That’s a realistic idea of what’s out there.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

*mind blown* – seriously. I always thought I was average, but I just looked it up and for my age (the chart doesn’t include height) – I’m barely in the 25th percentile. Average adult US male height: 69.3 inches (I’m about 70.5) Average (not median) weight – 195 (I’m 165) WTF, but my BMI is like 23 – well in the normal range. So almost everyone is overweight looks like.. So the prescription is just lift bro? I have been of late actually but the consistency and diet are difficult..not an excuse, just a fact. There’s a limit to how… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@culum Eh, just look at the figures for white people….the median height is 70.2. So your average height and below average weight — i.e. “good shape” relative to the rest of the male populous. Your BMI is “normal” because MOST EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES IS A FAT FUCK. lol. Wrt the prescription, idk…do you look gangly? If not, you are NOT underweight, nor are you unhealty…you are ABOVE AVERAGE — YOU AREN’T FAT and I’m assuming you’re at least decent looking. Now consider your very real struggles. It isn’t a game lol The demand is SKY HIGH for even… Read more »

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
5 years ago

No, my build is normal and I look decent. Not gangly at all. If I go through a phase of working too hard and eating crap I sometimes have a small paunch but generally not. So yeah, probably above average in the context you’re talking about. No wonder I get so many IOIs just walking through a club..it’s closing/leading that I’m focussing on now.

redpillgirlnotes
5 years ago

I hope you won’t mind me posting this here, but I wanted to share this comment I read at the Vox blog that nails this election so perfectly. I wish I could post it all over the country, make it go viral! Please cut, paste, and share it yourself if you find it worthy. https://notesfromaredpillgirl.com/2016/10/19/a-crossroads/

mersonia
5 years ago

@culum

If you’re not out of shape……..you’re in shape buddy

fleezer
fleezer
5 years ago

“TRP is about becoming a guy who can do that regularly, no “luck” required.”

unless you can see the future, “luck” will always be required

I would much rather be lucky than good

scray
scray
5 years ago

@culum

No wonder I get so many IOIs just walking through a club..it’s closing/leading that I’m focussing on now.

if you’re getting a ton of passive IOIs that’s another level altogether lol

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@redpillAttentionWhorenotes

“I hope you men won’t mind me NOT contributing to this community by NOT commenting on the topic at hand, but I simply can’t help myself. I feel it’s my place to come here and force feed my unrelated content upon men in the middle of a different conversation. Please don’t think of your own interests and instead do my marketing work for me for free. Surely I’m worthy of such solipsism.”

newlyaloof
5 years ago

@EhIntellect and @AgentP I’m liking your comments. Good additions to this place.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Culum

No, my build is normal and I look decent.

http://www.thefightershub.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/a6938aee483397b52c9dde4287380c08.jpg

George would still like a word with you, sexy…

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Scray

again, the average young woman is 5’3 and 160 pounds.

Sure but this average is spread over many, many different populations… I could point to half a dozen colleges right now that would blow your mind and the averages to bits… let alone the sororities at them… or spend a February in South Beach…

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Most of the chicks at the club look way diff without their makeup, too.” No kidding. I’ve scraped the paint off a number of them with my own two hands. Seen a few of the morning after too. Or all covered in sweat and mud after a Hash run, or 50 mile bicycle ride in the rain, without fenders. I’m not an incel autistic kid who has never seen a natural woman. I have addressed that chart both here and at RoK. The scale is skewed low at the high end. I’ve even addressed the specific woman one of the… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
5 years ago

“You can never live up to the local celebrity lifestyle she sees in her face everyday along with a hot guy at her side.” agree. don’t compete. redefine. she only thinks that lifestyle is best because that’s what she was told by the screen and her friends who watch the screen. she must be led. if you don’t do it, the screen will, and you lose. be an unstoppable force and no one will give a shit about “local celebrity lifestyles” because they’ll be too swept up in the fun to care. of course this doesn’t work if you’re a… Read more »

MikePhil
MikePhil
5 years ago

@Novaseeker – Thank you for saying that, and so clearly. I really couldn’t say what I meant but you nailed it. It’s the claim of male entitlement but on the other foot – the idea that your wallet, as well as your erection, is up for grabs for any woman who is vertical and breathing, regardless of how unappealing she is. Fact is, woman ever considers herself THAT unattractive, and denying a fatty the attention cuts right to the heart of her self image. It’s moving the goalposts, and I can’t tell you how many overweight buy that line of… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

This stuff here is dangerous. I’m 6′ 158. 46 y.o. Runner’s build. I can get all the 20’s play I want. I had to deescalate conversations with a 26 y.o. 5′ 7″ 130# budweiser pour girl and a 20 y.o. 5’3″ 110# (sundress, no bra) coed recently. I walked across the 1/2 empty bar, sat down next to the pour girl and said “I was bored over there and you are much more interesting and pretty to look at.” shook her hand, blah blah blah. I had her name and # in 10 minutes. The coed gave me a peek,… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Eh – Ya, laser eyes are dark magic, and the more you have sexual intent present, the better it is.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Dalrock has a new posting up that is relevant, The hum of the pumps. https://dalrock.wordpress.com/ Money graph: Young girls will watch commercials like the one above and will grow up to be bossy women. They will even congratulate themselves on how extraordinary they are for being a woman who is pushy and controlling. But feminism is being presented to them as a largely completed project. Sure they will constantly complain that the whole world is stacked against them, even while basking in their personal triumph over the patriarchy. But more and more they will ask what is the point of… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@sentient Sure but this average is spread over many, many different populations… I could point to half a dozen colleges right now that would blow your mind and the averages to bits… let alone the sororities at them… or spend a February in South Beach… I could point out to half a dozen [self-selected groups] right now that would blow your mind and the averages to bits…let alone the [self-selected groups within the self-selected groups] at them, or spend a February in South Beach. This is my point exactly. Many groups guys are competing for chicks in have “average” chicks… Read more »

EhIntellect
EhIntellect
5 years ago

Saw the Dalrock commerical.

Honestly, how may artisan dog biscuit, fancy cupcake and dildo pure romance party representatives do we need?

They’re all selling the same disposable income detritus to each other, then calling themselves bidness ladies.

Anyway, the CEO of the sex-toy “Pure Romance” plastics maker company is probably a dude.

Just checked…well my, my, it is!

G.K. Chesterton: “Ten thousand women marched through the streets shouting, ‘We will not be dictated to,’ and went off and became stenographers.”

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

fyi – GSP is 5’10” and 170…

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Zhe – Okay, so try to first get that I’m the wrong guy to ask about game as I’m not good at it…yet. I’m still trying to wriggle my way through an existential crisis and psychological issues that keep me inconsistent and struggling with some day to day life things. It’s Maslow’s hierarchy for me, like my business is doing better but my PTSD is kind of jangling hard. I went sedentary for a while and just pulled out of that tailspin and am enjoying being physical again. More to come. When chaos reigns, game takes a back seat. Also,… Read more »

Softek
Softek
5 years ago

@ Rollo “I’ve always said that if a man can stay in shape, even marginally, keep his BF% in the “normal” range, put on a marginal bit of muscle, be Red Pill aware and Game savvy, he’ll place himself well beyond the SMV of the 68%+ of men in his demographic.” I’d add in dressing well, and grooming (e.g. haircut and styling). I’ll vouch for “freebie IOI’s” from all of the above. But it’s a shitty feeling when women approach YOU and you don’t have enough Game to know what to do. They took the bait for you, without you… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

Jesus fuck at that chart. Do you guys really agree with that?

Shit on a brick, I need to be adding 2 whole points to all my girls lol. Pretty much all of them so far have been a solid 7-8.5 then, lol, and the 8 at the mall I hit on would be a 9 for sure.

Goddamn, can someone post another chart? I want to see how that stands here.

But damn, almost all those girls in that chart are plain as shit lol.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

EhIntellect
Honestly, how may artisan dog biscuit, fancy cupcake and dildo pure romance party representatives do we need?

A whole lot of “work” that women are paid for is just makework. That Oppenheimer commercial is part of a larger thing, as Dalrock pointed out.

It’s like this…

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

But we are supposed to see this:

mersonia
5 years ago

@Hank

I thought the 9’s on the chart were 6’s . I just assumed everyone held it to different standards in real life

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Softie – You feeling a little mad at the ladies? Here’s what I disagree with: “It’s not easy being a woman.” Watching them move back and forth constantly, trying to meet their conflicting priorities and manage their “emotions-first” approach to life makes me empathize with them. Don’t wish they were different, wish you were better…Not in the sense of shaming yourself, but rather it’s time for you to reach way deep down inside, grasp that self-loathing voice you cater to way too much, and rip it out of you. If you do, you will have a glimpse of the broad… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@sentient GSP is 5’10” and 170… I should say “okay” as in, in the context of world-class athletes. It’s a great body relative to just normal people lol. @hank But damn, almost all those girls in that chart are plain as shit lol. welllllll… if they’re all “plain as shit” and you aren’t banging girls at that level, then that must mean……. and if you ‘could’ bang girls at that level then congrats, you’re top 20% and just trying to break in to like the top 5% @rollo I’ve always said that if a man can stay in shape, even… Read more »

Agent P
Agent P
5 years ago

@hank
“Shit on a brick, I need to be adding 2 whole points to all my girls lol. Pretty much all of them so far have been a solid 7-8.5 then, lol, and the 8 at the mall I hit on would be a 9 for sure.”

I had a similar reaction. My next thought was, well perhaps I never really perceived the bottom third of the chart before because they’ve been invisible to me so that skewed my data set.

Shit, that makes me sound like a chick!

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

Let’s science this fatties and sex stuff. Some interesting research out there. 1. For women, the number of sexual partners decreases with increasing physical attractiveness. 2. Very physically attractive women are more likely to form exclusive relationships than to form purely sexual relationships. 3. Attractive women are less likely to have sexual intercourse within the first week of meeting a partner. 4. Underweight and normal-weight women are more likely to report romantic experience. 5. Overweight women report approximately 10% more partners than normal-weight women whereas obese women report approximately 10% fewer partners. 6. For women the effect of being underweight… Read more »

MrT
MrT
5 years ago

@softek

“But the IOI’s are definitely there. I’m 5’11” and am an average looking guy and I definitely noticed a spike in “freebie IOI’s” from women just by changing my clothes and my hair.”

I thought the Great Looks/Subcomms Debate of 2016 was compulsory curriculum around here.

Most likely you gave yourself permission to feel confident and good, and had a relaxed body language, you were talking calmly and slowly, and generally appeared comfortable (so called good subcomms), because of the fresh clothes.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@scribblerg lol FIRST OF ALL, while we in the manosphere, PUA, TRP, TRM, etc. HONE IN on where a woman’s nature can lead her —> > 30 sexual partners, quick lays, lots of ONS, group sex, whatever else…. … YA it’s important to remember that that isn’t the norm. It’s just MORE COMMON than most guys think. Hotties simply have fewer options to satisfy their baseline hypergamy. For ex, a legit 8 is really only going to want a dude who is 8+. Now, because the rough metric of SMV for women is looks (and I mean, you can say… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@MrT Most likely you gave yourself permission to feel confident and good, and had a relaxed body language, you were talking calmly and slowly, and generally appeared comfortable (so called good subcomms), because of the fresh clothes. http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/the-house-of-anubis/images/f/fc/You_know_thats_right.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131202160812 there’s really no more powerful tool in the game than just being relaxed and present in the moment and letting the world pass through you. I can’t stress that enough. Like, just letting go of your ego and pride completely. It’s very hard to get there, and I mean, it only comes in short bursts for me. But when it happens….you can… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@SJF I don’t really try to be a mentor at the moment. Until I have my own shit in line, I don’t want to pretend to be any kind of good example. Maybe I’m a good example of a student, but a mentor? Nah, I don’t really see myself as one. I’ve just been at the class long enough that I can give other students a few pointers, shove a book in their face, and then give them my take on said book when they get stuck where I already did. Most guys don’t make it past the pointers. A… Read more »

MrT
MrT
5 years ago

@scribblerg

3. Attractive women are less likely to have sexual intercourse within the first week of meeting a partner.

Was thinking it may be madonna/whore complex.

“This ones special, lets not fuck this up, lets try provider game, this is not a hoe after all…”

But dont have time to look into the study so just a first glance guess.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Scray She isn’t running into those guys too often. Yeah, and the flip side is: she literally can’t see the other guys. They don’t exist. Do. Not. Exist. A couple of years back I found that I could walk into a coffee joint in “grey man” mode, sit down, and actually make myself “pop” into view. Actually had a couple of 20-something girls look startled one time when I did this trick; changing state from “grey” to “HERE!” changed my subcommunications which made me “pop” into their field of view. Probably in their perception I just magically appeared in a… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@Anon

Yeah, and the flip side is: she literally can’t see the other guys. They don’t exist.

Nah, I don’t go that far.

Other guys….let’s say the middle 68% or so, do get laid. They just have to make promises and get into relationships and provide.

She doesn’t see them until they are providing her with resources/benefits should be the saying.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

Re: fatties They don’t exist to me anymore outside of social circles (she’s a friend of my friend so I’m being pleasant and fun but not interested in her), work (so long as she does her job well, she’s just another person I’m working with), or as an employee somewhere I’m patronizing. When I’m out and around, I pretty much ignore the fatties. The last time one DID try to force herself in to existence by insulting me then bragging about her PhD in something-or-other, I told her to drop 150lbs if she wanted her opinion to matter to me.… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

From the Department of Girls Good Boys Bad:

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Scray Probably a definition issue. To me an 8 is not even going to recognize the existence of an ordinary man, a 5, or a 6, or even a not ordinary man, 7. She can’t see them. She can only see 8’s with Game and 9’s and 10’s, and as you say, she doesn”t run into them all that often. She doesn’t see them until they are providing her with resources/benefits should be the saying. Provider game at the level of a female 8? Dude, she almost certainly provides for herself just fine one way or another. Gonna disagree with… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@scray welllllll… if they’re all “plain as shit” and you aren’t banging girls at that level, then that must mean……. and if you ‘could’ bang girls at that level then congrats, you’re top 20% and just trying to break in to like the top 5% well lets get a consensus first, because from what I am reading here most guys agree with me. AgentP says: I had a similar reaction. My next thought was, well perhaps I never really perceived the bottom third of the chart before because they’ve been invisible to me so that skewed my data set. Shit,… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@anon Provider game at the level of a female 8? Dude, she almost certainly provides for herself just fine one way or another. Gonna disagree with you on this one. Real-deal HB 8’s are not likely to respond to pure Provider game; 5’s don’t even need it, right? Cripes, there’s a provider tree as far as she’s concerned, just go pick another one when you need him. Ok. Go out tonight and start lying to chicks and just set aside about 300-500$ to blow TONIGHT on drinks/whatever. 1) lie to them and tell them all sorts of bullshit about how… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@hank

well lets get a consensus first, because from what I am reading here most guys agree with me.

and….?

I have a better idea. They can put pics up of their FBs who are hotter than the “9’s” (their 6’s who are easy to pull on a friday night).

Dudes talk shit. Fact of life.

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@scray It isn’t about talking shit. No one he is saying “Yeah, my gf is totally hotter than any of THOSE bitches”. guys here are just trying to get a reference for what each person considers a 6, or a 8, or a 10. I’ve seen exactly zero dick measuring contests so far here. A nerdy ass dude could look at a couple or girls and tell you one was a 6 and one was a 10. There’s no chance he’d even get the 6, but he can still tell you which ones he thinks are hotter than the others,… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@hank That’s it lol. No one is bragging or anything. dude, you have guys in here saying models and celebrities are 6’s….liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike, ya there’s some level of ego going on. A nerdy ass dude could look at a couple or girls and tell you one was a 6 and one was a 10. There’s no chance he’d even get the 6, but he can still tell you which ones he thinks are hotter than the others, and how he’d compare to the others. yes but that same nerdy dude would be more likely to be harsh in his assessment because… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Scray

Lena Dunham is a big celebrity. What do your rank her?

scray
scray
5 years ago

@hank any time a chart appears like this, dudes are really quick to dick measure. here’s another one: http://www.realmendrinkwhiskey.com/how-to-rate-girls/ first comment: You’re doing it wrong, the 8 and all others below should be taken off 2 points. 5 is supposed to be average, not ugly as shit. (not saying i’d go for a 5). here’s another one: http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/official-guide-to-rating-a-girl-10-with-pics-test-at-the-end.452665169/ a few comments in: “You didn’t post a girl above a 6” here’s another one: http://www.rooshv.com/the-1-10-scale comment: “I think you are off by one point. That 7 is a 6, that 8 is a 7 and that 9 is an 8. Here… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@sentient

Exceptions that prove the rule are fun indeed!

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Scray, you just moved the goalposts. Now you’re saying “blow $300 to $500 in one night on chicks: It doesn’t matter if she “provides for herself.” Women respond to dudes dropping resources on them and making promises. There’s a reason tons of dudes either a) DO EXACTLY THIS WITH HOT WOMEN or b) LIE TO HOT WOMEN ABOUT DOING THIS SHIT. it’s because IT WORKS. does it work as well as having good game? no. you take on a bunch of bullshit obligations and conditions and put yourself in a provider frame. But before you said this: Other guys….let’s say… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@scray dude, you have guys in here saying models and celebrities are 6’s….liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike, ya there’s some level of ego going on. lol so a model or a celebrity HAS to be attractive? just compare: http://media3.popsugar-assets.com/files/2012/03/11/1/192/1922398/afebe6c966660a22_141156368_10.xxxlarge/i/Jennifer-Lawrence-flashed-smile.jpg and contrast: http://66.media.tumblr.com/59a98911367a2eff948a51b2c4e42cd9/tumblr_n1pyv0laE31tqoojmo1_1280.jpg I don’t like white chicks, especially scrawny blondes, but margot robbie is super hot lol. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a white girl as attractive as her IRL. I’ve definitely seen white girls as pretty as jennifer lawrence lol, I see them all the time lol. Not all celebrities are as attractive as the others. Just because you are a “celebrity”… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@anon Two different things. First you said basicallly “provider game works”, now you are saying “PRETEND provider game works”. they aren’t two different things. Now you’re saying “blow $300 to $500 in one night on chicks: ya provider game. and pretend vs “real” provider game…. it’s the same thing. the reason why PRETEND provider game works is that there’s the promise of PROVIDING. (hint: it falls apart once the lie is up) My position: PRETEND provider game on a real HB8 or above will be 4 digits at minimum. $500 isn’t even the cover charge. Those girls just aren’t going… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Scray

Amy Schumer?

Mellisa McCarthy?

Don’t make me post pics!

scray
scray
5 years ago

@sentient you can post pics in the pursuit if this silly point you’re trying to make — not all celebs/models are attractive — that no one ever argued, because the real point you have to contend with — they generally are, and generally a normal dude trying to call a celeb a 6 (you know, the Katy Perry, Jenn Lawrence, etc. types) is just dick waving if he’s trying to talk relative to the general population. Now, relative to your own personal bullshit, maybe. But like I said…a 5 is 5’3 160 pounds. Be cereal….Jenn Lawrence is more than 1… Read more »

scray
scray
5 years ago

@hank

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a white girl as attractive as her IRL.

http://therichest.imgix.net/2016/10/ugly16.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=736&h=1104&fit=crop

ell-o-freakin-ell

inexperience showing through.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ hank Hey man!!! I don’t have an opinion on Jennifer Lawrence, other than she’s over-rated. Funny thing though, Margot makes my dick jump ( h/t to Sentient ) when I see her in certain movies ( Wolf of Wall Street, Focus ), but she doesn’t do so when I see her being interviewed. She’s pretty and all, but her subs make her gorgeous…in movies. Know what? I saw Ivanka Trump years ago, coming out of Trump Tower and she is fucking gorgeous imo. And tall too. She must be at least 5’11”. And I, like you, don’t really go… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@scray you can post pics in the pursuit if this silly point you’re trying to make — that no one ever argued, because the real point you have to contend with — they generally are, and generally a normal dude trying to call a celeb a 6 (you know, the Katy Perry, Jenn Lawrence, etc. types) is just dick waving if he’s trying to talk relative to the general population. lol a 6 is still better than most girls. Thats WHY we are trying to rate these girls, to figure out exactly where they stand. ofc a guy could say… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago
scray
scray
5 years ago

@hank Thats WHY we are trying to rate these girls, to figure out exactly where they stand. the chart above does a good job of providing the objective reality. my contention is that this “OMG BRO NAH THOSE 9’s are 6’s BRO” is just ego ToTH personal shit, and that there’s not really a desire to find the truth in it…it’s just more about ego. It is JUST LIKE fatty women cheering each other on about how high their standards are and shit. On the one hand, personal standards are cool and push yourself. On the other hand, you gotta… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@blax

yeah, ivanka I agree is very hot.

see, that’s what I am talking about. neither blax and I are super into the skinny blonde types, but we’d both rate ivanka at around a 9. THAT is useful knowledge.

scray
scray
5 years ago

@blax

Margot “hottest woman evaaaar” Robbie.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ scray

” Margot “hottest woman evaaaar” Robbie.”

Lol. Look, I’m not even gonna lie, I replayed that scene from Wolf of Wall street where she’s on the floor teasing DiCaprio about not wearing panties a few dozen times.

She’s hot. No doubt.

She’s just ” hotter ” when she is in a character ( I know, who gives a shit…lol ).

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@scray so? If a 6 is all there is, she’s be treated like a 10 sure. But anyone who looks at all the kinds of girls in the world would rate her as just above average. You could still objectively note that she is a 6. We’re not here to note SMV in the present marketplace. We’re just here to get a benchline of “girl b is prettier than girl a. Girl c is prettier than girl b, and would generally be considered very hot by most guys.” THATS ALL WE ARE DOING You’re just coming in a trying to… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

@ hank

That’s true. I’d rate Ivanka waaaayyyy up there in 9 territory.

But I am aware of a few of my personal biases working their way into the scenario.

Like, I am a sucker for tall chicks. I dig long necks. I like boobs ( not sure if hers are 100% real. They could be ” mommy boobs ” from having kids though…), and I demand long hair.

And even without makeup the difference isn’t ” shocking ”

http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2012918/1024.ivanka.mh.101812.jpg

Scray
Scray
5 years ago

@Hank

Lol so keyboard jockeying over shit that doesn’t reflect reality, i.e. current SMV value 2016. I don’t engage in that so I’ll leave y’all to it.

MrT
MrT
5 years ago

@hank

“THAT is useful knowledge.”

Useful for what?

Also this objectively assesing beauty is overrated imo. At least if you are pinpointing a certain number like Ivanka is a 9. What if scray and I say she is a 7? How will that affect your calculations?

mersonia
5 years ago

the chart above does a good job of providing the objective reality. my contention is that this “OMG BRO NAH THOSE 9’s are 6’s BRO” is just ego ToTH personal shit, and that there’s not really a desire to find the truth in it…it’s just more about ego.”

bruh the girls on the chart weren’t hot……… if we go by that… I know tons of 9 and 8’s have tons of them in my social circles
see tons of 7’s walking around everywhere anytime i go out at anytime of the day.

Maybe its different where you live.

Sentient
Sentient
5 years ago

Scray

Here is $100… Put it towards a sense of humor… Lol

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