Outrage Brokers

“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.” – Mark Twain

Well I finally had a chance to watch Roosh vs. the bloggers – there are no journalists left in the world – debate (it was anything but a press conference) and it was about what I expected. Every opportunity these bloggers had was to call him on his beliefs and his position on the state of the world with the intent to dismiss, marginalize or ridicule him.

By my estimate, there wasn’t a single blogger present who was older than 30 and each took turns couching their questions in terms that would challenge his perspectives with respect to their own. They weren’t there to report; they were there to debate questions they’d already written their own answers before going in because, like Roosh, they live and die by the impressions their readers/commenters. Roosh tried to classify them as ‘establishment’ or ‘the media’, but in reality they are bloggers – ‘journalists’ in name only. What they really are is outrage brokers and together they have a symbiotic relationship.

Roosh manufactures outrage, they distribute it to the cubicle workers who want to feel engaged in a world outside their cubes. Roosh cancels the meet ups, the cube workers feel like they’ve won a battle with edgelord shit-head misogynists and the Rooshites (preemptively) declare a victory for raising awareness of the ‘free speech’ Social Justice Warriors want to curb. Ding, ding! Return to your corners for the next round.

All this does nothing to benefit men in the Red Pill awareness even marginal Roosh proponents want to believe is the good that comes from this circus. “At least he’s raising Red Pill awareness. Any press is good press, right?”

Wrong. Ask Subway if they think the press their spokesman Jared Fogel generated with his 15 year sentence for child pørn charges was helpful in raising awareness of how great their sandwiches are. Not that anyone is boycotting Subway sandwiches, but likewise, no one’s minds are changed after Roosh had this presser. Not the bloggers or Twiteratti that hate him, not the Neomasculists who were already onboard with him and certainly no one that’s never heard of the ‘sphere in a public fashion.

Team Roosh and team SJW are still what they are. The fact that we get women and men IRL who know about this “leader of some MRA group who wants to legalize rape” should be evidence enough of the reach this quick hit, easily digestible ‘outrage bite’ has.

It’s easy to say that fence-riding men who’d never heard of the manosphere (the manosphere Roosh disowned, remember?) will be made aware of it and embrace it, but that’s a convenient and unmeasurable metric to justify what really amounts to a very damaging PR fuck up. Or maybe it wasn’t a fuck up? Maybe it went exactly as planned; maybe even more successful than planned.

Let me be clear, this is not an apologetic. Roosh masterfully turned (intentional or not) this to his advantage by playing all the bloggers present in the room to his narrative on his terms. He did exactly what he should’ve – no apologies, no admissions of guilt, and he forced these tools to play the cards he was dealing. He was handed a golden video op on a silver platter by these young journalists bloggers who knew going in that they were compromising the “journalistic integrity” their communications class teachers told them they had.

My concern isn’t how he handled this, it’s why he put himself (and other men who admire him) into this. My concern is that any genuineness he might’ve had about Neomasculinity is suspect of being just a vehicle for his own notoriety. If that’s the direction he’s chosen to go, if that’s how he’s decided to turn a dollar, I wish him good luck, but he’s become a dishonest broker of outrage at the expense (in some cases physically and financially) of the men who believed he was sincere.

If you read through the Deadbedrooms or Divorce subredds, there are countless men there who would save or change their lives if they embraced Red Pill awareness, but for whatever reason they get violently hostile at any mention of a TRP solution to their circumstances. How many of these fence-riders will look at Roosh and just have all those biases confirmed about TRP now?

Roosh is just playing a character now; one that the outrage brokers want and need:

I wrote about exactly this dynamic on Return of Kings in the only guest post I ever wrote for the site:

If the “postponement” of the ABC 20/20 manosphere “exposé” has taught us anything it’s that the writers seeking to cast light on the manosphere are looking for crazy. They need crazy because it’s the only thing they know how, or have the patience, to confront in as minimal an effort as it takes to type a few paragraphs dismissing it as misogyny.

Writers (vichy male writers) like R. Tod Kelly are also lazy. They see an opportunity for outrage that sells advertising. They wanted Stormfront and what they got was a global consortium of rational, well reasoned men with jobs, families and intelligence, men from all walks of life, all ethnicities, and socioeconomic backgrounds expressing ideas that don’t fit into an acculturation of feminine primacy.

If you read Matt Forney’s 20/20 interview post you’ll see the desperation for crazy in their producer’s attempts to provoke him to become what they think he should be – a frothing, angry, hate-fueled misogynist. That would make it easy for them, they know how to sell crazy. The copy gets approved, the crazies get marginalized and we move on to the next Mabeline commercial.

But they didn’t get crazy from Matt, or Roosh (okay Paul Elam looks a bit like Charles Manson in a certain light)—they got well reasoned, sensibility that was hard to argue against, so they attempted to prompt the crazy by barraging Roosh with questions about rape in the hopes that he’d blow up. He wouldn’t. They wanted it to be easy. They wanted to know all they needed to know about the manosphere by sourcing Manboobz, interviewing three manosphere bloggers and then trot out the crazy, show off the carnival freak, demonize and marginalize him and frog march the crazy off the stage. They wanted fringe, the easy kind of fringe that their journalism, communications and women’s studies classes taught them the easy answers to confront it with.

But the manosphere isn’t fringe. For as much as R. Tod Kelly, or the producers at ABC would like it to be, the manosphere is too broad, too comprehensive, too diverse for anyone unfamiliar with it to really understand it, much less deliver an unbiased objective opinion of it. So Kelly follows formula and makes the same lame attempts at simple aspersion and misogynistic dismissal 20/20 had already failed in doing (as evidenced by their segment’s postponement). The Daily Beast wanted its formulaic red meat, but Kelly is just dishing out ABC’s cold left-overs.

The MSM wants crazy. Crazy gets clicks. There was a time Roosh would’ve responded with far more measured and reasonable responses to these allegations, now he’s found it necessary to adopt the crazy that the MSM wants. He did it artfully, but he’s given them the ugly caricature, the black & white melodramatic misogynist who’s easy to hate.

They want a villain, a misogynist, a chauvinist, a caveman and a guy easily ridiculed in a feminine-primary social order and it appears Roosh is more than happy to give that to them if it means he can profit from it.

The problem with delivering the crazy is that Roosh does so at the expense of men who would otherwise benefit from genuine Red Pill awareness. I approach Red Pill awareness from a bottom up perspective because it is important that men effect real change in their lives and their thinking on a personal level.

I disagree on many ‘doctrinal’ tenets of Neomasculinity for any number of reasons, but the core Red Pill principles Neomasculinity appropriates are still there. Roosh does Red Pill truth-seeking men no favors by making a mockery of those very core principles he claims for the basis of Neomasculinity with his readiness to play a dangerous game with those men’s lives for his personal benefit. All Roosh does in playing this character is polarize men into a team mentality with no real change beyond an Us vs. Them shift.

It might feel good to rally and shake a fist at SJWs and feminists, but it does nothing to educate a man with Red Pill awareness so he knows why he’s in the social conditions he finds himself with women and a large feminine-centric social structure. That takes far more effort and personal investment in that man than simply recruiting him with an easy cause and an easier enemy to hate.

Roosh calling for public meet ups on a RoK six weeks in advance on a site that claims 1 million unique hits a month is not just “a chance for likeminded guys to get together for a beer” it is the bait and the time needed to draw a response from exactly the opposition he’ll complain is out to get him when they predictably do. Granted, that opposition took the bait as predicted, and along with it the outrageous capital he’d hoped to generate, but he’s only going to be able to cry wolf like this so many times before he marginalizes not just himself, but the validity of Red Pill awareness.

In fact that may be forthcoming sooner than he expects. Of course the outrage brokers he hopes to offend will be more than happy for the blog fodder, but at some point he’ll become passé and like PT Barnum he’ll be forced to up his game due to people rolling their eyes at another one of Roosh’s set ups. This is the same formula he’s been using since the London stop of last year’s world tour; he’s got to go bigger on the next push to keep the interest going.

Satire and Irony

 

Roosh suggesting the legalization of rape on private property wasn’t satire. It was irony, it was juxtaposition to expose a counter point – that women need to accept at least some responsibility for the consequences of their sexual indiscretions – it was illustrative sarcasm, and it was an allegorical thought experiment, but it was neither satire nor parody.

It was an essay in exposing the duplicity of women’s hypoagency – the idea that certain individuals (e.g. women) lack agency in their own actions. They lack control. They are not actors … rather, they are acted upon. The corollary to that argument being that they are not responsible for their own actions. Yet the cultural narrative of the omni-empowered, Strong Independent Woman® is completely at odds with exactly women’s hypoagency with regard to rape. They are powerful and purposeful when it serves and entirely unaccountable and blameless when it’s not convenient.

There was an “entirely serious” article written by Femitheist (on Vice no less) not long ago ‘suggesting’ the systematic culling of 90% of the male population. It turned out to be less-than-serious, but it was written in the same vein as Roosh’s rape legalization “satire” to illustrate a counterpoint.

Difference? A woman wrote it.

If a woman had written, verbatim, what Roosh had, the irony wouldn’t have been intentionally missed. There would’ve been some friction for suggesting rape is any woman’s fault, ever, under any circumstance (hypoagency)  – and it would be even more salient had an anti-feminist woman wrote it – but readers would’ve gotten the gist of the irony. Just as they eventually did with Femitheist’s article.

If a homosexual like Milo Yianopoulos had written it, he’d have been met with the same friction, perhaps even more censorship at his speaking engagements, but readers would’ve gotten the irony – and with a giggle because he’s a cheeky Brit with fabulously gay bleached hair.

Outrage Sells

We live in an age of outrage media. I’ve written in the past about how women need indignation as part of their innate solipsistic make up, so it follows that in an era where men are feminized to the point that they think wearing skirts and heels are a legitimate form of protest against mass rape that fem-men would also lap up the same indignation. They lap it up because they identify with the feminine, with being women themselves.

All one need do today is search for “Rapsit beaten by” on YouTube or Google to see just how far that rape hysteria has ensaturated society. Label a man a ‘rapist’ in the slightest degree of seriousness and you have carte blanche to kill him or destroy his life and livelihood. No doubt Roosh is aware of this judging from the volume of death threats he’s received for the mere perception that he may be a rapist or the oblivious lack of critical thought that he’d seriously advocate for legalizing rape.

He knows this because he’s written, in my opinion, one of the most insightful essays on exactly this social order – The Most Insidious Method of Control Never Devised.

Roosh wrote the seminal essay on how insidious the threat of “stealing a man’s bread” has in controlling his decisions and silencing him. This is why it pains me to see Tweets like this after so elaborate an effort of publicity at the potential cost of other men’s bread – men who believe in the sincerity of what’s only a vehicle for his notoriety now:

https://twitter.com/rooshv/status/696825522727317504

I had to reconsidered doing this breakdown of Roosh’s very blatant attention trolling at the expense of anyone who would’ve thought his intents were genuine about organizing a world wide meeting of the tribes. I’m in a difficult position here.

By posting I get tagged with not being cooperative to the manosphere on whole by exposing Roosh for the marketeer he’s regretably turning himself into. On Twitter and the previous thread I get accused of cutting Roosh off at the knees for not being a team player because “any press is good press” (false) and even if he is the Svengali he is, well, at least the ‘sphere is getting some spill-over publicity.

I say that’s bullshit, and then I’m reminded of my own reasons for involving myself in writing what I do and who I write for.

Not only is it bullshit, but it’s bullshit that damages the capital that the ‘sphere collectively has developed for over a decade now. Roosh isn’t making any new converts to Neomasculinity or anything else with this, and while his epic trolling of SJWs and fem-stream media bloggers deserves the highest praise, it’s regrettable the cost should come from men who are genuinely looking for the answer Red Pill awareness provides.


 

The Red Pill Monthly

Niko Choski and I will be discussing this post and other topics on the next installment of The Red Pill Monthly youtube Livecast this Friday, February 12th at 10AM Pacific Standard Time.

You can follow the link here.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Novaseeker
Novaseeker
6 years ago

@Tom —

My understanding is that CH is indeed written by several people, but that Roissy is one of them. Every so often there is a post written that certainly bears his writing style signature, if you will.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

And then there is this. The ultimate expression of the “Warrior Princess” myth. Notice how said warrior’s makeup is precise and their presentation is overtly more sexual then actually fierce. [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pES8SezkV8w&w=560&h=315%5D Talk about cultural appropriation. Taking Freddie Mercury’s paean to male kinetic, shameful behavior and how it plays out over the course of a man’s life and using it as a backing track for a Warrior Princess fantasy to sell Pepis is so emblematic of how fucked our pop culture is that it needs no further explication for those of us who are not asleep. Freddie Mercury was as… Read more »

Mehraz
Mehraz
6 years ago

take it easy its just a sexual fantasy. only rape of women is serious

http://www.blacktowhite.net/community/threads/white-boys-turned-out-in-prison.27899/

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

Fyi, notice I’m not engaging in the politics here. Discussing “capitalism” in the way it’s framed here signals an incredible ignorance regarding how the entire idea of property and self-ownership emerges in human civilization. Why is it that agriculture at scale emerged separately in at least 5 different, disconnected strands of human civilization, giving rise to the nation-state itself and large scale trade, which became the engine of most notable human progress in the history of civilization? Could it be that it succeeds because it actually works? Even more amusing are the infantile rantings about the concentration of wealth, a… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Scribbler: FYI, no criticism in substance.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

the “Warrior Princess” myth

In making the 300: Rise of an Empire they realized they had a problem, the 300 were all men.

So now in the next movie we have Eva Green as a killing machine admiral of the Persian fleet. Wait, that’s not enough! Let’s end the movie with Lena Headey being a killing machine too. Just to make the warrior princess quota.

ludiam0ndz
ludiam0ndz
6 years ago

@Scribblerg, Nice wall of text! I don’t agree though that folks “ranting” about extreme wealth inequality are infantile. some questions; Why should capital be taxed less than labor? Do you think most extremely wealthy people today (top 1%) in the U.S. earned their wealth simply on their own merit? or does wealth creation require a conducive environment to happen? Do you believe that there is such a thing as a public good, or a broad public interest? or is just private property rights that matter? Do you know what a negative externality is? should companies have to pay for the… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“we lived in trees till we could own property? Hmm.. that doesn’t make much sense to me . . .”

That would be my non-substantive criticism, but I chose not to get into it because it is, well, non-substantive. While perhaps an interesting topic in itself it would only serve to derail.

“Do you know what a negative externality is?”

Jargon that is an offense to language.

M Simon
6 years ago

Why should capital be taxed less than labor? Capital enables labor.

Who pays corporate taxes? The people who buy the corporation’s products. The nice thing about corporate taxes is that it is an indirect tax. It does not show up on your tax bill. You have no idea how government is gouging you. And that is just the way they like it.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Scribblerg:

“Taking Freddie Mercury’s paean to male kinetic, shameful behavior and how it plays out over the course of a man’s life”

You actually meant to say:

“Taking Freddie Mercury’s paean to male kinetic, exuberant behavior and how the social shaming of his masculinity plays out over the course of a man’s life”

Right?

Alwaysdiscerning
Alwaysdiscerning
6 years ago

Sjf,
Wow, so she can next her girlfriends and boyfriends all she wants—doesn’t that sound feminist to you?
Ra-ra–go girl power! Its my prerogative to boot any woman or man in my life who isn’t useful to me!
It not a much further to leap to suggest that she can next her husband (frivorce) because he isn’t red pill or doesn’t subscribe to whatever her beliefs may be.

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

Alwaysdiscerning,

You sound bitter.

Choosing relationships and same sex friends is an independent topic from red/blue pill or masculine/feminine intersexual relationships. Who are you to tell someone who they shall have as friends or tolerate their thoughts and personalities?

The topic of red pill women is an interesting topic though too. But that’s not relevant to your thoughts as written.

M Simon
6 years ago

How about the 80/20 rule. In most circumstances 20% of the people will produce 80% of the results. This is true of programmers. In fact for them it is worse. About 10% produce 90% to 99% of the results. How do you deal with that? Pay everyone the same to reduce inequality? Or pay for results enhancing inequality? We see this in Game. About 20% of the men get 80% of the women. What is to be done with the 80% “deprived”? Allocate them a woman? What if he wants more than one? What about the man/woman who wants none?… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

As to the point made above about some who commandeer government for their own profit? The only thing I can think of to limit this is to limit the size and scope of government. Not a very popular idea these days.

scray
scray
6 years ago

@all What happened to the FR’s? I love the 80/20 rule. It’s not that simple in the field, tho. Most guys will end up getting regular sex from some halfway decent girl. The sex won’t really be on their terms, and they won’t be able to go out and get sex for themselves. 20% of guys are in a situ where they can get regular sex from multiple women, IMO. But a smaller % of guys can go out and make it happen with hot prime women consistently. And that is because most men can’t recognize when to pull the… Read more »

LeeLee
6 years ago

& Alwaysdiscerning — I’m sorry if I’m being confusing. I didn’t mean to make it sound like I wasn’t going to be her friend anymore, we’re still very good friends. It’s just specifically the loss of getting to chat with her about Red Pill stuff and be able to process my thoughts and ideas with a wise and feminine woman, because she’s not into that stuff anymore.

Though I don’t have a problem “nexting” friends.. but it wouldn’t be over differing ideology. I’ve “nexted” friends for being bad influences, really flaky, mean, etc.

ludiam0ndz
ludiam0ndz
6 years ago

@M Simon, GE didn’t hardly paid any corporate income taxes last year, and they sold a lot of shit. A lot of Companies don’t actually make products for the retail customer, A lot don’t make any products, (What does Goldman Sachs make that is sold to a consumer?) Is it accurate that the consumer pays the corporate tax indirectly? Nah. “Capital enables labor,” even if that’s true.. so what? it should get taxed the same. Show me a truly free, unfettered market anywhere on this planet, doesn’t exist, yet you believe such a state would be optimal somehow? This is… Read more »

trackback

[…] Rollo Tomassi כותב על הפרשה בפוסט מיום 8.2.2016. נאמן לגישה השקולה שלו, הוא מעריך את מה ש-Roosh עושה נגד המדיה הצהובה והפמיניזם הרדיקלי, ומציין כי התרשם מהתשובות החדות אותן ענה Roosh ל"עיתונאים", אך מעביר ביקורת על הצורה בה התפתחה הפרשה, ועל תשומת הלב השלילית שהפרשה מושכת לעבר המנוספרה. […]

stuffinbox
6 years ago

Imho The only way to get a more honest Govt.is to ban paid advertisment for candidates ,just give it to them for free via pbs . on full rotation and equal time.But I doubt we will ever see this. Capital is either earned and pretaxed or borrowed and has to be paid back,capital gains are taxed above 36k I believe used to be 10k they raised it to stimulate the economy by bigger purchases. If everyone paid the same percetage of tax w/ no cieling or a higher amount above a point,the boss would be more likely to raise wages.… Read more »

stuffinbox
6 years ago

@Divided
The best way this “old guy” found to get his foot in the door was working 14hrs.a day and stepping that up to 20 to make ends meet.Things aren’t any harder today people are just softer.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Scray Topics tend to bounce around here, which I think is great, but not when it’s at the expense of FR’s in the mix. I don’t have anything fresh ATM but hope to soon. Your suggestion: “And that is because most men can’t recognize when to pull the trigger. For example, you meet a girl at a club and shake her hand, say ‘hey,’ and she smiles while giving you strong eye contact, ‘hey.’ Right there just kiss her. Practice this move! I want someone to have a FR where they try this out.” is pretty on-point for me right… Read more »

10x10
10x10
6 years ago

@scribblerg I agree with you on political economy. You are fighting the good fight against the egalitarians here. But let me ask you, you say: Anarchic leftists are indeed the weirdest creatures in our political landscape… I agree. But what do you think of the Rothbardian anarchists; ie the anarcho-capitalists? BTW, I give you credit as a 52 year old trying to game young women. If you want game resources for that, I wouldn’t recommend YaReally. He’s somewhat infantile. I would take a Wayne Elise weekend conversation camp (Juggler of PUA fame) or I would take a James MacLane (socialcoach.com)… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
6 years ago

@culum

how do you get the motivation to go out when you know there won”t be any girls there you are attracted to?

Roused
Roused
6 years ago

Rollo,

Dang, there are some SERIOUS racist assholes commenting on that link you shared about Roosh’s noose. I’ve only been to RoK a few times and read practically nothing about Roosh. Everything about him, his site and now the PR fiasco seem toxic and fucked up. He attracts a lot of bad juju.

Glad I found TRM first or I might have thought the Red Pill and this “sphere” was hijacked by Nazi asshats.

bob
bob
6 years ago

@rollo: nang on as usual. crickets………

Ever notice how “drunken consent” always pertains to women? Why is that?

re: neo-liberal economics. bollocks. Don’t want to capitalise a work force just want to benefit. Who is the real ‘free rider’ 9 out of ten 10?. Das Kapital, mein freund. I could go on all day. Why? In first year economics I could debate a masters student. Internalize benefits, externalize costs. The modern ‘capitalist’ isn’t……but is a parasite.
Suck on it.

bob
bob
6 years ago

I read the Johnson article. White night horse shit. Everyone ‘consents’ re: drunk driving but not sex. Either women are equal and responsible OR we take away all their legal rights, including contracts, voting, driving, etc.
Roosh may be many things but a rapist? Gimme a break.
I need to exit. Have to go capture a regulator, buy an election, underpay a child, ‘rape’ a union organizer in honduras, waterboard-not torture- an Islamist, underpay a feminist and overpay a rapist-I mean man. It’s tough being a neo-liberal interventionist-effin’ job never ends.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

And then there is this. The ultimate expression of the “Warrior Princess” myth. I can think of worse expressions, like all those ludicrous action movies featuring ass-kicking grrrl powa warrioresses, marketed to a) beta nerds with fantasies about capturing the heart of a warrior princess like Lara Croft and boning her b) clueless teenage girls who actually fall for this narrative. This is just a run-of-the-mill ad, and an old one at that, obviously directed at young men. It’s no coincidence that all three singers featured in it are curvy – according to the objective meaning of the world, not… Read more »

M Simon
6 years ago

ludiam0ndz February 11th, 2016 at 3:30 pm

Taxes are included in the price. YOU pay the tax. So GE paid no tax? So what. That does not negate my point.

BTW America has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world. It hurts business. It helps price American goods out of the foreign trade market. It also lowers the cost of imports.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

Women who take up arms and fight tend to look like this in the real world:

comment image

Yeah, not exactly optimal material for ads and action flicks.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

@scray @Forge the Sky – Good point on FRs – I have cleared some time in the first half of March to blitz the nightlife – you guys are gonna be sick of my FRs then! 🙂 I’ll try Scray’s insta-kiss move then (says he nervously when even asking for the number triggers escalation anxiety) @Forge – I know what you mean about work taking your life over (I schedule things so that I am either in Work Mode or Going Out Mode and that works well except for having to restart from scratch after 4-6 weeks of no practice).… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

The poster shot, and you’ll be hard pressed to find a better one:

http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Marina-Ginest%C3%A0-of-the-Juventudes-Comunistas-aged-17-overlooking-anarchist-Barcelona-during-the-Spanish-Civil-War-21-July-1937.jpg

Note that she is actually a journalist and that as far as anyone knows this is the only time she ever held a gun. She died just two years ago.

The reality:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/war-and-conflict-spanish-civil-war-pic-july-1936-the-courtyard-of-the-picture-id78989705

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Scray You left off the thing about just kiss her that WILL make 1000% more guys actually try it… That is what to do if she doesn’t want it. Most guys need to get past that point. A couple of good ways to meet this resistance. First classic MM, she pulls back you say “heh you looked like you wanted me to kiss you” up close to her then roll off with “i didnt say I would” smirk and continue to game, ideally maintain some hand / arm kino. Yes it doesnt make any sense but of course it doesnt… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@10×10 ” But Vox is case and point of the economic ignorance of the alt-right. I don’t have a problem with their racial nationalism. But if they want to argue for it they should just argue for it and don’t try to sell it as necessary because of the “failures of a free market”. That I can’t stand.” I’m having trouble understanding how you square these two things. The “free market” means a free international labor market, and that means people of whatever race and nationality go where the jobs are while employers go where the cheap labor is, so… Read more »

Karl
Karl
6 years ago

>> Ask Subway if they think the press their spokesman Jared Fogel generated with his 15 year sentence for child pørn charges was helpful in raising awareness of how great their sandwiches are no one in the world imagines that Subway Sandwiches are particularly great. That is not Subway’s business model. Subway’s business model is…. they are there. Subway has more locations than McDonalds. Subway is ==the world’s most prolific franchiser== Subway doesn’t need, nor try to, get customers to hunt down a Subway to see if the sandwiches are awesome. They only need to keep their name in the… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@Sentient “Two that stand out (and for brevity of time today) are thinking the <25YO's have "daddy issues" and the part about the girl thinking he was either intelligent or rich… he missed those. It is not because of any so called daddy issue, and not because of how he is dressed that he therefore much be rich… Owen has gotten to the part of his life where he is exhibiting what I now call the Alpha Triad – passionate, dynamic and authentic traits." I think they ALL have "daddy issues" in 2016 lol because a real "daddy" is so… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@scribbleberg “I think he listened just a little too closely to his Uni profs in certain classes than others.” Most of my profs were right wingers and “American exceptionalists.” I had one prof who wrote a book which argued that Christianity laid the foundation for modern capitalism. Another lost a teaching gig at another University for arguing that the U.S. should have used nuclear deterrence as a bargaining chip with the N. Vietnamese. If you went into his office, he had a huge framed picture of Reagan behind his desk which stared at you the whole time. The “liberal Marxist… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@YaReally you should be able to have fun in a bar full of ugly girls that you would never in a million years fuck, or dudes Last couple of weeks branching out I’ve met a lot of cool dudes while trying to find good places to reliably meet cute chicks. It’s actually (strangely) made it easier to ask chicks for numbers because I’m so often pulling out my phone and being all “Dude we should go riding some time give me your number”. Before I didn’t really ask anyone for numbers, so just being in the habit of asking dudes… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@stuffinbox “The best way this “old guy” found to get his foot in the door was working 14hrs.a day and stepping that up to 20 to make ends meet.Things aren’t any harder today people are just softer.” Right. “Back in my day…. ” *shakes fist* There’s nothing mysterious about this. There’s tons of data on what people were paid, how easy it was to get a job, what necessities like housing and education cost in this decade or that one. The older generation got a far better deal. Make of it what you will, but to pretend this isn’t the… Read more »

newlyaloof
6 years ago

@YaReally, totally agree older dudes have no reason not to practice pickup. My marriage is shit right now, and I’m not even ready mentally to pull the trigger, but I go to bars for lunch and happy hours and I do what I’ve learned here and I have 19 year old waitresses coming up hugging me and feeling my back/arms, and I even had an ex call me saying she wants my sperm for a kid since she’s getting divorced and her window is closing. Shit is a trip. Just a few days ago went out with couple buddies and… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@stuffinbox

“I asked this old welder once what he thought about all these younguns going off to college? He replied someone has to do the work.”

Somebody has to pay them wages sufficient to start and take care of families or else they won’t bother, nor should they.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Somebody has to pay them wages . . .”

Go for it.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“You’re asking the wrong person.”

That’s what I thought.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg

What did you think? Apparently you thought that people who have no experience of hard work paying off will still value hard work.

Divided Line
6 years ago
kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“What did you think?”

I thought it would do you good to meet a payroll.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg I don’t even know what you’re arguing. I’m arguing that your individual financial interests may not always equate with the national interests. What happens if they don’t? Or can this never be the case? Just doesn’t compute I guess. Desperate people don’t care how hard you worked for your money. People who have no future don’t care what you think is fair. That’s the real world, sorry. If you want to avoid burning down your own house, then you need to start asking serious questions about why hard work no longer pays enough for somebody to start and take… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“I don’t even know what you’re arguing.”

That you appear to have little to no experience in meeting a payroll.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg

You appear to have little to no experience reading a history book.

Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy
Fred Flange, Kylo Ren and Stimpy
6 years ago

@Bob I agree with your take on the Jonhson piece: underwhelming. It’s white knighting by a whites-only knight. He would fit in as one of Dalrock’s modern marriage “complementarians”. Who preach that TRP/Game is immoral and un-Christ-y because it lets men take advantage of the SMP chaos to their own benefit which means they aren’t producing and obeying the women they are “leading through service” [i.e., choreplay]. So since Mr. V is really a creepy creepster who acts creepy, you must not listen to people who posit TRP. Instead be a good little worker beta. Be a nice guy, smile… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“You appear to have little to no experience reading a history book.”

The oil embargo was made possible by the petrodollar. The petrodollar was made necessary by the New Deal. The New Deal was made possible and necessary by the rape of America’s real wealth.

Now, instead of leaving it “somebody,” go meet a payroll.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg “The rape of America’s real wealth.” It’s real wealth was what? Because if consumer spending is 2/3rds economic growth, then it looks to me like its real wealth is a stable, large, domestic consumer base – otherwise known as the middle class – and I’m pretty sure the New Deal created its modern incarnation. I’m also pretty sure that your inability to recognize that individual financial interests not necessarily equating with national interests is the reason it’s being dismantled to the degree that the U.S.’s economic and social strata begins to resemble Guatemala’s. If you can’t pay enough for… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“It’s real wealth was what?”

Stuff.

“it looks to me like its real wealth is a stable, large, domestic consumer base . . .”

Q.E.D.

Divided Line
6 years ago

Also, do you seriously believe that the U.S. would have the position it has globally without the petrodollar?

Divided Line
6 years ago

What stuff, you mean like that oil stuff? Oh wait, we don’t have that stuff, now do we? Venezuelans, Canadians, and the Middle East has that stuff, if memory serves me correctly.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“What stuff . . .”

Have you read enough history books to know what the original form of money was?

” . . . that oil stuff? Oh wait, we don’t have that stuff, now do we?”

Yes, we do, although we used to have more. Have you read enough history books to know that the Industrial Revolution got along without it?

“East has that stuff, if memory serves me correctly.”

Which America uses a lot of, even though we have it.

Things that make you go “Hmmmmmmmmmm.”

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

I’m with Divided Line here. I don’t know how you can see that the top .1% has the same amount of wealth as the bottom 90% and NOT admit that Marx was right about capitalism. Okay, he was obviously wrong about communism. We get that. Nobody here is arguing for communism, but I think we’ve proven that unfettered capitalism does not exactly benefit all of society. When all of the capital is at the top… What exactly is supposed to happen??? The wealthy are just supposed to be gracious enough to start spending their money for the good of society?… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Also, do you seriously believe that the U.S. would have the position it has globally without the petrodollar?”

Of course not, it’s wealth had to be destroyed to reduce it to that state.

And you ask me if I’ve ever read a history book?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“… If you’re a smart educated guy technically you can still rise above the unwashed masses with some work.”

As per my earlier comment, I started with a paper route, but instead of buying stupid sneakers with my earnings, I bought a basic mechanic’s tool set.

I learned what to do with them by the simple method of trial and error.

” . . . the system is fundamentally broken.”

The system is bankrupt beyond recovery. It’s going to be a bumpy ride.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg Yeah, everything you’ve said here made me say “hmmmm” as in “hmmm what the fuck is he going on about?” “Of course not, it’s wealth had to be destroyed to reduce it to that state.” What does this even mean? I wasn’t aware that the U.S.’s wealth had been “destroyed.” I’m pretty sure it is among the wealthiest countries on the planet. “Have you read enough history books to know what the original form of money was?” Apparently not, what was it? ‘” . . . that oil stuff? Oh wait, we don’t have that stuff, now do we?’… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Apparently not, what was it?”

Food.

“Are you arguing that the industrial revolution didn’t require cheap energy, labor, and raw materials, much of which comes from abroad?”

Why do you think that Europe spent so much money, at so much risk that they had to invent the limited liability company to finance it, in order to colonize the New World?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Look if there is some argument you’re trying to make here, just come right out with it.”

You don’t know what goes in to meeting a payroll.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg

Haven’t I already argued pretty clearly that you don’t seem to know what goes on in producing a society with a consumer base that will buy the damn goods in the first place so that you even have a payroll to meet?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

Your argument has convinced me that you don’t know what wealth is, you don’t know what money is, you don’t know how to raise capital or how to use it to meet a payroll.

And that’s why you think “somebody” has to do it.

Drop me naked in a temperate forest in May and when you come back in September I you will find I have accumulated wealth.

Go find two divorce raped homeless men. Devise a plan for paying them a living wage. Convince me it’s viable.

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg “Food.” Wait, you mean land. Isn’t that where the food comes from? It comes out of the ground. No ground, no food, yeah? It would appear then that wealth in an agricultural society is land as well as the means of turning the land into commodities, which I guess means you need access to various forms of capital, like labor. I still don’t see what point you’re trying to make. What does this have to do with anything I’ve argued? So the original form of wealth was land. How was the land acquired so that you could grow anything… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg “Your argument has convinced me that you don’t know what wealth is, you don’t know what money is, you don’t know how to raise capital or how to use it to meet a payroll.” Property rights are political fictions, meaning they require a coercive power to back claims to property or else nobody can be said to actually “own” anything. Without property rights which are upheld and protected, there is nothing to buy, sell, and trade on a market of any kind. So the market preupposes property rights and property rights presuppose the state, in whatever form. Therefore, the… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@kfg – I agree with Divided Line wrt not understanding what your argument is? It’s like your usual approach here continues to be akin to doing some sort of zen or tai chi gymnastics with your cognitive approach by way of taking the attitude of not having a point of view yourself which enables you to be critical of other viewpoints but “not there” for counterpoint. That is OK for circumstances where it is not wise to expect reciprocrocity (like gaming women to build attraction) but if that is where you are coming from then why would you think this… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@forge and all awesome, discussion’s moving back toward pickup! ” I mean, it’s one thing to just say ‘burn it down’ and it’s another to risk going in totally uncalibrated and getting fucked up. Maybe I’m catastrophizing the worst-case scenarios.” yes that is the GREAT FEAR. but I gave you a very specific list of things: you shake hand, say hey, make eye contact, she makes eye contact, smiles back, and says hey. Here, I’ll even add — step close to her when you do these things. the success rate on that should be very high. but hey, let’s talk… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Wait, you mean land. Isn’t that where the food comes from?” It came from water. Then it spread to land. “I guess means you need access to various forms of capital, like labor.” There is a word for a person without access to labor: cripple. “So the original form of wealth was land.” No. Food. In fact, the root form of wealth is more food than you can eat before it goes bad. It has been observed that monkeys exchange food for services. How did they raise capital for land? “The main reason the federal government exists at all is… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Wild Man: “It’s like your usual approach here continues to be akin to doing some sort of zen or tai chi gymnastics with your cognitive approach by way of taking the attitude of not having a point of view yourself which enables you to be critical of other viewpoints but “not there” for counterpoint.” Text books are of limited use and the libraries are already full of them. I feel no need to write yet another. But at least you have come to some understanding of me. Ideologies are also a dime a dozen. I feel no need to promote… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Wild Man

Re: kfg

“Water is fluid, soft, and yielding. But water will wear away rock, which is rigid and cannot yield. As a rule, whatever is fluid, soft, and yielding will overcome whatever is rigid and hard. This is another paradox: what is soft is strong.”

Lao Tzu

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg It came from water. Then it spread to land. Uh.. ok. There is a word for a person without access to labor: cripple. Is there a word for a guy with tons of land and no workforce sufficient to put it to productive use because he doesn’t understand that he has to pay them enough for it to be more rational for them to work for him rather than simply take his land by force out of necessity? I believe this person is known as a “dumbass.” No. Food. In fact, the root form of wealth is more food… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
6 years ago

@YaReally and everybody else… “@scray @forge the sky @culum struan @scribblerg @sentient @etc “And that is because most men can’t recognize when to pull the trigger. For example, you meet a girl at a club and shake her hand, say ‘hey,’ and she smiles while giving you strong eye contact, ‘hey.’ Right there just kiss her. Practice this move! I want someone to have a FR where they try this out.” well, back into my comfort zone…lol… ‘this’ is what i’ve come to think of as the ‘ping’ window…and it really does escalate that fast…lol… if you watch girls, they… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg One last thing, the “practicum” here would begin by recognizing that all of this is simply about the ability of subsequent generations to start and take care of families. That is what structures the lives of communities and therefore the economic life of nations. It’s not about capitalism vs. socialism. It’s not about what’s fair. It’s about what is practical. I follow Kevin Williamson and various other National Review writers on twitter and I caught them recently discussing how they can get people to move from economically depressed areas to areas where there is supposed opportunity, and this in… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Uh, but you need land to grow things on.” Go outside. Look around. “Monkeys have limited capacity for politics and therefore have limited capacity to turn land into property.” Have you ever tried to take food or land from a monkey? ” . . . property is a political fiction made possible by institutionalized coercion . . .” Here I stand, on land, pointy stick in hand. If you want them, come and take them. Violent force is not a political fiction. Ask the monkey. He understands. ” . . . you seem to believe that a market for goods… Read more »

Divided Line
6 years ago

@kfg

How much weed have you smoked today? Or are you always like this?

viavitae
viavitae
6 years ago

Anyone reading can see that men shit-test too, just differently and for different reasons.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“How much weed have you smoked today?”

About half an ounce of Virginia, so far.

” Or are you always like this?”

Under similar circumstances, pretty much. Are you always like that?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

” . . . men shit-test too, just differently and for different reasons.”

That’s part of complementarity. If anyone tells you that you are headed for a farm full of fuzzy bunnies where life will beautiful, be warned, they are about to shoot you in the head.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@kfg and @Forge:

Zen koan: Is the ninja of the rational like one hand rationally clapping for the irrational or like one hand irrationally clapping for the rational? Ponder this, like water over rock and enlightenment will (not?) be yours! (whose?) grasshopper.

@kfg – from here on in shall I refer to you as the rational ninja or the irrational ninja? – as you wish!

No – the (ir)rational ninja!

Haha – you have entertained me again. Thank-you sir – have a good day.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

” – as you wish!”

So long as you don’t start calling me Buttercup, we be cool and shit.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@kfg

“How much weed have you smoked today?”

About half an ounce of Virginia, so far.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Sun Wukong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ax-0bcKtVI

I have no use for that other weed. It smells horrid and makes it harder for me to think and do things. My interest is in finding ways to think and do things better.

exoplanetary
6 years ago

I complete agree Rollo. Roosh has done nothing to change the perception of the manosphere. Even people on my facebook were sharing links to the story about him being pro rape, without actually looking into it. On most websites it is taken as fact by most commenters.

All Roosh did was set his supporters into dangerous areas, and shown his website to be misogynistic, which a lot of the shit he says does go too far, his lack of any respect for women etc. He basically whored himself just for some media attention.

Cheers

stuffinbox
6 years ago

@ Divided As you probably know I totaly understand and agree w/ everything KFG says. Great grandpa used his land to feed his family and his tools to build his home .For money he would make oak rail tles w/ an axe for 10cents each in 1906.Grandpa built refineries in Texas for seven$ a week and board.Dad sold equipment, cut firewood and drove a cab at night for 14yrs.I cut wood fixed trucks and equipment 14hrs a day 7 days a week at 150$ a week.Today I custom fit logs and trim for 50$ an hour.Yes forty years experience well… Read more »

bob
bob
6 years ago

@divided line : you know your history. Personally, I would never debate anyone who thinks that a ‘negative externality’ is an offense to language, ie. jargon. kfg stated that a few days ago. To me, I am constantly amazed at most peoples complete inability to comprehend macroeconomics and ‘money’. They are the ones standing outside a bank as the doors are chained a la Argentina in 2001. The petrodollar is ending. Slowly. Chickens are coming home. Slowly. Oil bourses are being opened out east-Russia (10 mb/day), Iran, etc. Is it a coincidence that their is a direct relationship re:wealth and… Read more »

Truman
Truman
6 years ago

@yareally you’ve mentioned a video before called squirting 101, is it this one?

Link totally NSFW, expect immediate porn images and pop-up ads:
http://www.pussyspace.com/vid-839543-squirt-lesson/

I guess it’s different as he mentions the importance of days or even weeks of massage beforehand, which obviously you don’t have time for. What about the basic technique he shows (starting at 18:48), is that similar to what you do/have seen?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Bob: ” . . . an offense to language, ie. jargon.” You have conflated “offense to language” with “jargon.” I did no such thing. When a physicist or engineer uses the word “power” he is using jargon, as he has taken a word from the colloquial and given it a precise, technical definition applicable only within the confines of his field. Yet I do not hold the word “power” to be an offense to language. I find it interesting that the colloquial meaning of the word “power” as “supplying with power” (energy really) only arose as the Industrial Age came… Read more »

bob
bob
6 years ago

@kfg: maybe I misquoted you. I consider wealth to be wood, coal, land, copper, gold, etc. This is in the abcense of a backed paper currency. Real money exists just not in many countries at this point. cavest empor

stuffinbox
6 years ago

Negative externality is a term my cat would use to distance himself from his litter box if he could speak.
Money is only worth what you can trade it for.
Real wealth is knowledge coupled with the ability to use it to improve circumstances.
Commodities constantly change in value according to demand,the most stable ones are food clothing shelter and alcohol.
Did you ever notice how you can get more furniture moved for a sixpack than say a hundred dollar bill?

Shiva
Shiva
6 years ago

” I consider wealth to be wood, coal, land, copper, gold, etc. This is in the abcense of a backed paper currency. Real money exists just not in many countries at this point. cavest empor” Human resources. Your scientists, doctors, engineers are also wealth of the nation. i.e. People who have the top notch skill which take years of education and then honed via years of experience. This includes your SPEC OPS soldiers too who are regularly deployed all over the world in small numbers to wreak havoc or save the day depending on their mission. Your artists too are… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“maybe I misquoted you.” I used conjunction, not identity. My charge of “offense to language” being against the specific term, not jargon as a category. It greats against the mind, as do many terms of jargon that have come into the lexicon in the post modern era. “I consider wealth to be wood, coal, land, copper, gold, etc.” Exactly. And money is the abstraction of units of wealth into a medium of exchange, allowing the trading of equivalent value in dissimilar goods and services. It’s more convenient than a lien on your cow against the value of an apple. “Why… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Real wealth is knowledge coupled with the ability to use it to improve circumstances.”

Hence why when dropped in the woods naked I wouldn’t spend any time sitting around bemoaning my lack of capital to hire people to do jobs for wages.

I’d simply used my own labor and knowledge of how best to apply it to begin accumulating wealth.

stuffinbox
6 years ago

The trades are no more obsolete than living in a building or driving a car.

Wood shop and auto shop are about learning self discipline while applying new knowledge,with a personal vested interest and artistic expression while making a grade.

This was also a male group activity and competitive environment that is now missing.

As opposed to military parade that is more like hitting your lawnmower with a hammer because it won’t run.While a display of power still no self discipline and very non productive.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Scray

“90% of the problem is that once you give out A-B-C, guys will think about D-E-F and want those answers. Then you give those, and they want G-H-I. It’s neverending. And it’s an excuse not to try.”

Thanks man. Totally right. Time to busta move.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Divided Line

If I can chance interpreting kfg, I’d say this.

His criticism isn’t against leftist or rightist policies or any specific thing you’re talking about. His criticism is that you’re talking about the optimal way to distribute resources before you’ve figured out how and from what they’re going to be produced.

thwack
thwack
6 years ago

Tom February 11th, 2016 at 12:22 am … addendum, I’m sure what I wrote is not the last word on the Chateau Roissy/Heartiste history. Would be glad to see any other info others might be able to add. We need to maintain the history of our roots. ————————————————————————————— The Chateau, Roissy/Heartiste… are among the strongest supporters and defenders of the term “race realism.” It is my opinion the term “race realism” was coined (by racists) as an attempt to strip all agency out of the practice of racism. Its purpose is to convince the racist and TRICK his audience into… Read more »

stuffinbox
6 years ago

@KFG I believe you may thrive and prosper under adverse conditions,as would I.Though I don’t look forward to this it is possible that i will be enjoying a dish of KFG Feline domestica rotisserie in the not to distant future.

stuffinbox
6 years ago

El Gato Frito Kentucky con chilies con frijoles.

bob
bob
6 years ago

A negative externality is a public cost created when producing a private good. I make stuff. I sell it and profit. I dump the waste in a sewer after dark. joe public pays.
Real. Not fake.
Chicago school ‘economics’ : Fake

Dirigisme: reality. not fake. massage markets.prevent (inevitable)failure.

Feminism: fake. destroys societies.
Patriarchy: not fake. maintains societies.

we are the market. we are society

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