Outrage Brokers


“It’s easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.” – Mark Twain

Well I finally had a chance to watch Roosh vs. the bloggers – there are no journalists left in the world – debate (it was anything but a press conference) and it was about what I expected. Every opportunity these bloggers had was to call him on his beliefs and his position on the state of the world with the intent to dismiss, marginalize or ridicule him.

By my estimate, there wasn’t a single blogger present who was older than 30 and each took turns couching their questions in terms that would challenge his perspectives with respect to their own. They weren’t there to report; they were there to debate questions they’d already written their own answers before going in because, like Roosh, they live and die by the impressions their readers/commenters. Roosh tried to classify them as ‘establishment’ or ‘the media’, but in reality they are bloggers – ‘journalists’ in name only. What they really are is outrage brokers and together they have a symbiotic relationship.

Roosh manufactures outrage, they distribute it to the cubicle workers who want to feel engaged in a world outside their cubes. Roosh cancels the meet ups, the cube workers feel like they’ve won a battle with edgelord shit-head misogynists and the Rooshites (preemptively) declare a victory for raising awareness of the ‘free speech’ Social Justice Warriors want to curb. Ding, ding! Return to your corners for the next round.

All this does nothing to benefit men in the Red Pill awareness even marginal Roosh proponents want to believe is the good that comes from this circus. “At least he’s raising Red Pill awareness. Any press is good press, right?”

Wrong. Ask Subway if they think the press their spokesman Jared Fogel generated with his 15 year sentence for child pørn charges was helpful in raising awareness of how great their sandwiches are. Not that anyone is boycotting Subway sandwiches, but likewise, no one’s minds are changed after Roosh had this presser. Not the bloggers or Twiteratti that hate him, not the Neomasculists who were already onboard with him and certainly no one that’s never heard of the ‘sphere in a public fashion.

Team Roosh and team SJW are still what they are. The fact that we get women and men IRL who know about this “leader of some MRA group who wants to legalize rape” should be evidence enough of the reach this quick hit, easily digestible ‘outrage bite’ has.

It’s easy to say that fence-riding men who’d never heard of the manosphere (the manosphere Roosh disowned, remember?) will be made aware of it and embrace it, but that’s a convenient and unmeasurable metric to justify what really amounts to a very damaging PR fuck up. Or maybe it wasn’t a fuck up? Maybe it went exactly as planned; maybe even more successful than planned.

Let me be clear, this is not an apologetic. Roosh masterfully turned (intentional or not) this to his advantage by playing all the bloggers present in the room to his narrative on his terms. He did exactly what he should’ve – no apologies, no admissions of guilt, and he forced these tools to play the cards he was dealing. He was handed a golden video op on a silver platter by these young journalists bloggers who knew going in that they were compromising the “journalistic integrity” their communications class teachers told them they had.

My concern isn’t how he handled this, it’s why he put himself (and other men who admire him) into this. My concern is that any genuineness he might’ve had about Neomasculinity is suspect of being just a vehicle for his own notoriety. If that’s the direction he’s chosen to go, if that’s how he’s decided to turn a dollar, I wish him good luck, but he’s become a dishonest broker of outrage at the expense (in some cases physically and financially) of the men who believed he was sincere.

If you read through the Deadbedrooms or Divorce subredds, there are countless men there who would save or change their lives if they embraced Red Pill awareness, but for whatever reason they get violently hostile at any mention of a TRP solution to their circumstances. How many of these fence-riders will look at Roosh and just have all those biases confirmed about TRP now?

Roosh is just playing a character now; one that the outrage brokers want and need:

I wrote about exactly this dynamic on Return of Kings in the only guest post I ever wrote for the site:

If the “postponement” of the ABC 20/20 manosphere “exposé” has taught us anything it’s that the writers seeking to cast light on the manosphere are looking for crazy. They need crazy because it’s the only thing they know how, or have the patience, to confront in as minimal an effort as it takes to type a few paragraphs dismissing it as misogyny.

Writers (vichy male writers) like R. Tod Kelly are also lazy. They see an opportunity for outrage that sells advertising. They wanted Stormfront and what they got was a global consortium of rational, well reasoned men with jobs, families and intelligence, men from all walks of life, all ethnicities, and socioeconomic backgrounds expressing ideas that don’t fit into an acculturation of feminine primacy.

If you read Matt Forney’s 20/20 interview post you’ll see the desperation for crazy in their producer’s attempts to provoke him to become what they think he should be – a frothing, angry, hate-fueled misogynist. That would make it easy for them, they know how to sell crazy. The copy gets approved, the crazies get marginalized and we move on to the next Mabeline commercial.

But they didn’t get crazy from Matt, or Roosh (okay Paul Elam looks a bit like Charles Manson in a certain light)—they got well reasoned, sensibility that was hard to argue against, so they attempted to prompt the crazy by barraging Roosh with questions about rape in the hopes that he’d blow up. He wouldn’t. They wanted it to be easy. They wanted to know all they needed to know about the manosphere by sourcing Manboobz, interviewing three manosphere bloggers and then trot out the crazy, show off the carnival freak, demonize and marginalize him and frog march the crazy off the stage. They wanted fringe, the easy kind of fringe that their journalism, communications and women’s studies classes taught them the easy answers to confront it with.

But the manosphere isn’t fringe. For as much as R. Tod Kelly, or the producers at ABC would like it to be, the manosphere is too broad, too comprehensive, too diverse for anyone unfamiliar with it to really understand it, much less deliver an unbiased objective opinion of it. So Kelly follows formula and makes the same lame attempts at simple aspersion and misogynistic dismissal 20/20 had already failed in doing (as evidenced by their segment’s postponement). The Daily Beast wanted its formulaic red meat, but Kelly is just dishing out ABC’s cold left-overs.

The MSM wants crazy. Crazy gets clicks. There was a time Roosh would’ve responded with far more measured and reasonable responses to these allegations, now he’s found it necessary to adopt the crazy that the MSM wants. He did it artfully, but he’s given them the ugly caricature, the black & white melodramatic misogynist who’s easy to hate.

They want a villain, a misogynist, a chauvinist, a caveman and a guy easily ridiculed in a feminine-primary social order and it appears Roosh is more than happy to give that to them if it means he can profit from it.

The problem with delivering the crazy is that Roosh does so at the expense of men who would otherwise benefit from genuine Red Pill awareness. I approach Red Pill awareness from a bottom up perspective because it is important that men effect real change in their lives and their thinking on a personal level.

I disagree on many ‘doctrinal’ tenets of Neomasculinity for any number of reasons, but the core Red Pill principles Neomasculinity appropriates are still there. Roosh does Red Pill truth-seeking men no favors by making a mockery of those very core principles he claims for the basis of Neomasculinity with his readiness to play a dangerous game with those men’s lives for his personal benefit. All Roosh does in playing this character is polarize men into a team mentality with no real change beyond an Us vs. Them shift.

It might feel good to rally and shake a fist at SJWs and feminists, but it does nothing to educate a man with Red Pill awareness so he knows why he’s in the social conditions he finds himself with women and a large feminine-centric social structure. That takes far more effort and personal investment in that man than simply recruiting him with an easy cause and an easier enemy to hate.

Roosh calling for public meet ups on a RoK six weeks in advance on a site that claims 1 million unique hits a month is not just “a chance for likeminded guys to get together for a beer” it is the bait and the time needed to draw a response from exactly the opposition he’ll complain is out to get him when they predictably do. Granted, that opposition took the bait as predicted, and along with it the outrageous capital he’d hoped to generate, but he’s only going to be able to cry wolf like this so many times before he marginalizes not just himself, but the validity of Red Pill awareness.

In fact that may be forthcoming sooner than he expects. Of course the outrage brokers he hopes to offend will be more than happy for the blog fodder, but at some point he’ll become passé and like PT Barnum he’ll be forced to up his game due to people rolling their eyes at another one of Roosh’s set ups. This is the same formula he’s been using since the London stop of last year’s world tour; he’s got to go bigger on the next push to keep the interest going.

Satire and Irony

 

Roosh suggesting the legalization of rape on private property wasn’t satire. It was irony, it was juxtaposition to expose a counter point – that women need to accept at least some responsibility for the consequences of their sexual indiscretions – it was illustrative sarcasm, and it was an allegorical thought experiment, but it was neither satire nor parody.

It was an essay in exposing the duplicity of women’s hypoagency – the idea that certain individuals (e.g. women) lack agency in their own actions. They lack control. They are not actors … rather, they are acted upon. The corollary to that argument being that they are not responsible for their own actions. Yet the cultural narrative of the omni-empowered, Strong Independent Woman® is completely at odds with exactly women’s hypoagency with regard to rape. They are powerful and purposeful when it serves and entirely unaccountable and blameless when it’s not convenient.

There was an “entirely serious” article written by Femitheist (on Vice no less) not long ago ‘suggesting’ the systematic culling of 90% of the male population. It turned out to be less-than-serious, but it was written in the same vein as Roosh’s rape legalization “satire” to illustrate a counterpoint.

Difference? A woman wrote it.

If a woman had written, verbatim, what Roosh had, the irony wouldn’t have been intentionally missed. There would’ve been some friction for suggesting rape is any woman’s fault, ever, under any circumstance (hypoagency)  – and it would be even more salient had an anti-feminist woman wrote it – but readers would’ve gotten the gist of the irony. Just as they eventually did with Femitheist’s article.

If a homosexual like Milo Yianopoulos had written it, he’d have been met with the same friction, perhaps even more censorship at his speaking engagements, but readers would’ve gotten the irony – and with a giggle because he’s a cheeky Brit with fabulously gay bleached hair.

Outrage Sells

We live in an age of outrage media. I’ve written in the past about how women need indignation as part of their innate solipsistic make up, so it follows that in an era where men are feminized to the point that they think wearing skirts and heels are a legitimate form of protest against mass rape that fem-men would also lap up the same indignation. They lap it up because they identify with the feminine, with being women themselves.

All one need do today is search for “Rapsit beaten by” on YouTube or Google to see just how far that rape hysteria has ensaturated society. Label a man a ‘rapist’ in the slightest degree of seriousness and you have carte blanche to kill him or destroy his life and livelihood. No doubt Roosh is aware of this judging from the volume of death threats he’s received for the mere perception that he may be a rapist or the oblivious lack of critical thought that he’d seriously advocate for legalizing rape.

He knows this because he’s written, in my opinion, one of the most insightful essays on exactly this social order – The Most Insidious Method of Control Never Devised.

Roosh wrote the seminal essay on how insidious the threat of “stealing a man’s bread” has in controlling his decisions and silencing him. This is why it pains me to see Tweets like this after so elaborate an effort of publicity at the potential cost of other men’s bread – men who believe in the sincerity of what’s only a vehicle for his notoriety now:

I had to reconsidered doing this breakdown of Roosh’s very blatant attention trolling at the expense of anyone who would’ve thought his intents were genuine about organizing a world wide meeting of the tribes. I’m in a difficult position here.

By posting I get tagged with not being cooperative to the manosphere on whole by exposing Roosh for the marketeer he’s regretably turning himself into. On Twitter and the previous thread I get accused of cutting Roosh off at the knees for not being a team player because “any press is good press” (false) and even if he is the Svengali he is, well, at least the ‘sphere is getting some spill-over publicity.

I say that’s bullshit, and then I’m reminded of my own reasons for involving myself in writing what I do and who I write for.

Not only is it bullshit, but it’s bullshit that damages the capital that the ‘sphere collectively has developed for over a decade now. Roosh isn’t making any new converts to Neomasculinity or anything else with this, and while his epic trolling of SJWs and fem-stream media bloggers deserves the highest praise, it’s regrettable the cost should come from men who are genuinely looking for the answer Red Pill awareness provides.


 

The Red Pill Monthly

Niko Choski and I will be discussing this post and other topics on the next installment of The Red Pill Monthly youtube Livecast this Friday, February 12th at 10AM Pacific Standard Time.

You can follow the link here.


383 responses to “Outrage Brokers

  • kfg

    “Roosh masterfully turned (intentional or not) this to his advantage by playing all the bloggers present in the room to his narrative on his terms.”

    But he really should have spent the past couple years as a Toastmasters member. He’s improved a lot since his first videos where he had all the presence of a piece of dry toast, but he has a long way to go.

    And it’s not like that very advice wasn’t given on his own board years ago.

    If he wanted to be a guru, he should have done his prep work.

    “This is the same formula he’s been using since the London stop of last year’s world tour . . .”

    No. He started it with “Fat Shaming Week” on RoK, click baiting the outraged feminists and SJWs that his site theoretically banned from commenting. Worked like a charm to drive attention and traffic to the site, and screw it that it ruined the potential of the place.

  • Rami Hiltunen

    @ Rollo

    “It might feel good to rally and shake a fist at SJWs and feminists, but it does nothing to educate a man with Red Pill awareness so he knows why he’s in the social conditions he finds himself with women and a large feminine-centric social structure.”

    I think you need to take two thinks to account here Rollo;

    a) Some ppl will find your blog or some other better blog through Roosh larping around the world. I think I found RT some 4 years back when ROK had an article about how Milliclub was the easiest place to get casual sex in the world.

    b) Many men are not analytic enough to benefit from this. For example one of my friends has read about everything manosphere has to offer and is still the same loser with women he has always been. His genebank is basically just so bad that he has no chance in the competition anymore unless he move permanently to Thailand.

  • bo jangles

    As they say live by the sword die by the sword. I don’t think he actually expected this, because (this time) his intentions were innocent. It was an excellent demonstration of just how easy the media can smear someone.

  • BC

    Rollo looks at the problem through the lens of branding, since that is his specialty. The problem is that not all issues are nails that can be addressed by the branding hammer.

    Others view it through a different lens. For example, Vox Day, Mike (Danger&Play) or Heartise might cite the long game and using Alinsky tactics on the Saulties, as this type of trolling does in fact polarize and freeze the enemy in an extreme caricature which is not at all flattering to observers.

    Worst of all is the cucks (spellcheck tried to correct that to ‘ducks’, heh) at AVfM who have become Fem-Imps and miss no opportunity to turn their fire against other men.

    The alt-right/manosphere needs shock troops just as much as it needs strategists and leaders. I may not agree with his lifestyle or certain of the things he does, but won’t speak against Roosh, and will even help his activities where I can if it furthers the cause IMO.

  • fgh

    Self improvement doesn’t threated the first matriarchy cause there arent enough alphas to go around. But men meeting in meat space and forming relationships is the necessary precurser to real political change. This should be supported, not criticized.

    Do u support men and marriage or the FI? Your precious red pill defends marriage busting adulterous relationships on reddit all day long. I wonder.

  • bob bitchin

    It never ceases to amaze me how sjw’s, feminazi’s, big media, etc. refuse to support free speech and the free exchange of ideas. Nothing is to be questioned. Do as one’s told. Obey.
    Roosh won’t obey and must, therefore, be destroyed. He is self-serving and selfish imho. I’m not sure what his plan is or if he even has one. I do know that I’ve seen so much man hating ‘hate speech’ over decades that Roosh’s writing pales in comparison. He makes some very valid points re: lack of female responsibility in his ‘rape’ endorsement.
    I’ve concluded he is most likely going to have a net negative effect for the average guy. I believe I cut him too much slack but still stand by the idea of male solidarity. It would br nice if Roosh felt the same but it’s clear Roosh takes care of Roosh.
    I wouldnt be surprised, as rollo alluded to in months past, that Roosh gets religion. He could very well bugger of to Iran and find work their if the West ‘turns’ on him. All in all, a sad chapter.

  • YaReally

    On the flip of Roosh, side here’s another free long infield breakdown vid by Tyler, who the Roosh cult will tell you is taking advantage of guys and luring them in to suck their money away with tactics that don’t work and they’re a huge scam etc etc …meanwhile Roosh posts a “this is the time to support ROK” post begging for donations, after putting everyone in his cult on the front-line of danger having their faces exposed and their careers (and possibly health, like that one Toronto video where the guy was planning to shoot his followers) ruined so he can be a Z-list celebrity. But ya, RSD is the group taking advantage of guys lol

    @scribblerg @sun wukong @forge the sky @rollo @culum struam @sentient @whoever else goes out

    Anyway onto the video (it looks like there could be 2 more of these coming as part of the Hotseat promo too, cross your fingers):

    His vibe is a little too intense in the breakdown parts of this one, I get the impression he probably saw some newbies fucking up calibration infield the night before or something and he’s pissed about them accidentally creeping out some girls because he keeps hammering that topic. And his repeating of words over and over to make his point is a little annoying. His breakdown in the last infield footage was a lot more chill, but he tones it down after the first half of this, the second half he’s more relaxed.

    Stuff to note from this one:

    – she’s 21, he’s 35 or some shit, with a ridiculous beard, balding, skinny beanpole body, all that shit…he DOES have height on her so OBVIOUSLY IT’S HEIGHT THAT MATTERS lol

    – she has a boyfriend and states it immediately…irrelevant! Like Tyler says “if she HAS a boyfriend and she’s still hanging out with me, then he’s not doing it for her” If she didn’t cheat with Tyler she’d cheat with someone else at some point…that guy is ALREADY failing to fully satisfy her, that’s not Tyler’s fault or HER fault. That’s her boyfriend’s fault. Even if Tyler walked away, she would go through the motions with her boyfriend until she found someone else…that relationship was dead in the water the minute she didn’t tell Tyler to fuck off. If her boyfriend was fully satisfying her, she would tell him to fuck off. Like I’ve said a million times, the one type of girl that I know there’s no way I can get is the one that’s legitimately fully satisfied by her man (aka he triggers her Hypergamy and I can’t trigger it better)

    – for the guys who hate gaming inside clubs/bars, why not just game on the street? There are hours before and after the bar where there are plenty of girls on the street to game. If you live near a bar district (which you should be looking to do if you want to get good fast), and you aren’t feeling like blowing a bunch of $ on pre-drinking, cover, coat-check, drinks, redbulls, etc why not just take a nap when you get home from work, wake up around 10pm, shower up and go for a walk around the streets for a couple hours and open whatever you see and try to pull a girl home or go home with a girl?

    – note how low energy he is…same as the last video he starts with a high-energy move, but then pulls it back and lowers the vibe down into “realness” territory where he’s not just spiking her Buying Temp non-stop, he’s creating a feeling like they’re friends who’ve known eachother for years and she doesn’t write him off as just the “fun club guy”

    – notice all his calibration, there are points where she’s seemingly running away from him, but he knows when to back off and when to give her space and when to switch gears and go with her etc, he’s CONSTANTLY reading her reactions and calibrating to stay right on the edge of leading/pushing without crossing into being creepy and when he DOES accidentally cross that line he can tell and he makes a Statement of Empathy (like “sorry am I being that creepy guy on the street now?” to show that he can tell what she’s feeling aka he has social calibration) and he backs off a bit

    – he talks about sex right away, using “I can’t go home with you I’m too shy” when she didn’t even offer it, but it sets a sexual frame right away and assumes attraction and is a future projection and misinterpretation (“I’m going home” and he takes it as an invite to have sex)

    – he doesn’t introduce himself, he waits for her to ask his name because that’s a free indicator of interest he can use to guage the interaction…you CAN introduce yourself right away, but then you don’t have that free “I’m interested in you!!” indicator that her asking your name would have been…that ioi helps tell him where he’s at with attraction

    – lots of great information about being an older balding man with young 21yo girls and how they respond to his frame and Daddy vibe older men have (the oak tree vibe I talk about), and how they’re 21, of COURSE they’re not going to be able to have a deep fascinating conversation about the world, so don’t expect it, just enjoy their young bubbly feminine energy for what it is. If you want deep conversation get some close bros your age. Girls are for FUN and SEX and LAUGHTER

    – also note the stuff about them qualifying themselves to you and LETTING them do that…I actually fuck this one up myself because the oldschool mentality was a lot more “entertain the girl or she’ll walk away” and I was younger and less grounded so I built up some dancing monkey habits from those days. But now “less is more”, and the more she LIKES you the less you need to do…in the last infield (linked below) note how Tyler is loud and crazy at the start but once he hooks the girl he gets lower and lower energy and is just leaning against the bar being chill, and by the end of it when she wants his number he’s barely even responding to her or doing anything, because he’s hooked her. Same thing with this, the more she’s hooked the less he does…he still leads it towards them going home together, but he’s not swirling and twirling around, he’s letting HER do a lot of the work (which goes back to Julien and Todd’s stressing of making her INVEST in the interaction)

    – pay attention to his explanation of the madonna/whore shit…she’ll just hide it from guys who judge her, and the guy who sparks that side of her she’ll reveal it for…you can’t control them long-term, just stay high-value and understand game and give her the FULL rollercoaster of good and bad emotions and trigger her Hypergamy

    – Tyler didn’t highlight it but the girl’s car has another car parked in front of it so she can’t get it out and they have to go talk to the guy at the front and make him move it etc a LOT of guys would panic as soon as they realize the car is parked in front of her car and would be like “OH NO THIS’LL BE DRAMA AND KILL HER STATE!!! OBSTACLE!! COCKBLOCKEDDD!!!” and let shit fall apart or let her freak out etc. But Tyler just stays chill and they just go resolve the situation and he keeps her engaged through it, no big deal. If she started to freak out like “Fuck this always happens!!” he would just go “HEY!!” and cut her emotional rise off (like the Dog Whisperer tapping a dog to get it to stop escalating it’s rage at a passing car) and tell her they’ll go handle it and take her hand and take her over to the parking guy to solve the situation, keeping it light and fun. Remember this when a girl loses her phone, her coat-check ticket, her friends, etc etc Don’t let those situations spiral into crazy drama when they don’t have to

    – on looks, Tyler talks about how girls all tell him he must be rich, because he’s too ugly to be that confident and assume attraction lol and note how much this girl is complimenting him, from his amazing brain when he’s barely said anything to just how awesome he is over and over, just like the girl in the LAST infield footage who keeps saying he’s awesome and she loves him etc When Tyler gives a seminar speech where he SAYS “I get complimented by girls all the time” everyone scoffs, because they don’t go out enough, and don’t run proper game, or try running proper game when they aren’t in their custom-fitted suit with their hair perfectly groomed etc, and don’t experience this shit first-hand so they think it’s impossible that Tyler would get these kinds of reactions. This is a 21yo girl complimenting and qualifying herself to mid-30s has-two-kids-and-a-baby-mama TYLER. TYLER:

    TYLER. lol

    – note that he never tells her what he does for a living, doesn’t tell her where he lives or how nice it is, doesn’t tell her what kind of car he drives, hell when she compliments his jacket he tells her he got it at H&M for TEN DOLLARS. He could have lied and said it was expensive or let her just assume it was but he actively tells her it cost $10. Because he knows it doesn’t matter

    – none of this is CRAZY. This is just a guy who “gets it” picking up a girl who wants to get fucked by a guy who “gets it”. Learning all the calibration and dynamics and shit to get TO this point can take a while, years of going out and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone infield etc. But once you GET it, it doesn’t LOOK like crazy swirly twirly pickup with fuzzy hats and palm-reading. It just looks like a guy shooting the shit with a girl and they just go home together.

    And here’s the last hour-long infield breakdown incase you missed it:

    In my mind both of these are mandatory viewing if you’re out learning pickup. We would have KILLED for infield footage and explanations like this back when I started learning game. If this had existed back in the mid-2000s I would have watched this shit frame by frame analyzing it and learning from it. Now guys will skip through it giving no fucks and then complain “ehh, I didn’t see you put your dick inside her so it doesn’t count, and you should put up some infield of you pulling 3-somes” (meanwhile they aren’t even going out and making out with girls let alone pulling or in need of 3-some instructional footage lol)

    It’s Valentine’s Week, girls are on the prowl this week looking for someone to spend V-Day with. Watch these videos then get the fuck out there. You should be out MINIMUM Thurs Fri Sat and Sun (V-Day) this week. If you want to get numbers watch Julien’s PIMP video on number-closes and his SHIFT infield with the blonde pornstar chick in the bright nightclub that he opens talking about his sword and closes with a solid number close (basically time-bridge some V-Day plans HARD and make her invest etc so she doesn’t flake).

  • IAS

    @Rollo: Maybe I’m too naive but given that according to stuff you write, I understand that Roosh himself has his financial survival compromised for some years.

    Similarly so for Athol Kay which “sold out”.

    This doesn’t excuse any of them from “sacrificing” other men (in one way or the other) to prop themselves up, but is hardly surprising for people that are aware of stuff like the Laws of Power, “Game is amoral” and so on.

    What is the fundamental difference in doing this kind of amoral sacrifice for self-benefit, and knowingly gaming and having sex with someone’s wife? The lack of acceptance of the latter (even if you don’t do it yourself) has been seen as residual blue pill by Red Pill communities. I remember discussing it with Andy a few weeks ago.

    The worst case scenario in either case is conceivably suicide, either from having their financial ability compromised (by being associated with Roosh) or from finding out that a Oneitis (wife) had sex with someone else (possibly followed by a divorce also compromising their finances or access to kids).

    I think you are doing a good job on shining the light on this and warning about the dangers of aligning with both Roosh and Kay, for that matter you also warn frequently about the dangers of being married / in a LTR and caring too much.

  • YaReally

    @IAS
    “What is the fundamental difference in doing this kind of amoral sacrifice for self-benefit, and knowingly gaming and having sex with someone’s wife?”

    My view of it (not at all endorsed by Rollo I’m just throwing out my thoughts off the top of my head):

    Ideally all guys learn game and they bang enough taken girls that they lose the blue pill illusions that guys are under thinking their girl won’t cheat on them, and they learn to understand why women cheat, Hypergamy, etc and the next generation of men as a whole bail on that whole Disney fantasy and have a more realistic understanding of women and what to expect from them.

    Ya some of the guys IN those relationships end up being sacrificed (although even then that’s only if they find out which they often don’t), but ultimately it’s for a greater good for men in general. A generation or two from now, when men have seen enough of this shit they won’t be willingly signing half their assets up for such a lopsided deal, or if they do they’ll understand Hypergamy etc and how to make a long term relationship work because they’ve seen all this shit or have buddies who’ve seen enough of it. And even then some of the guys who DO find out they’ve been cheated on will convert to the red pill and learn, and all will pass on that wisdom to the next generation.

    On top of that, cheating is happening whether guys actively learn the dynamics behind it or not. That beta married to a wife who’s unsatisfied is probably going to be cheated on at some point in the next 40 years of her not being happy, it kind of doesn’t matter whether it’s a PUA or just a random Chad Thundercock on a girls’ night out. So it’s taking something that already happens and using it to teach men how chick psychology works so they don’t end up being the guy getting cheated on or being in a legal situation where being cheated on would destroy them.

    Like that Tyler video I just linked, the girl says she has a boyfriend and Tyler still picks her up. That’s an entire room of men who, from Tyler sacrificing that boyfriend, won’t have the same Disney illusions that boyfriend has that let him think he can keep a girl who’s unsatisfied reined in like blue pill programming told him. And that video already has almost 8000 views (and will probably end up with around 40,000 views like his last infield vid had)…so that’ll be like 40,000 men who come out of the Disney illusion because of that one guy’s sacrifice, and that guy was VERY LIKELY to have been cheated on ANYWAY because Tyler barely had to do anything to help it happen.

    So it could be argued that that one guy’s sacrifice makes 40,000 more guys wise up and avoid BEING that guy trapped in the Disney spell.

    But with Roosh the only one who really benefits long-term from his sacrificing all these guys is Roosh himself. The guys who have their faces plastered around the net as rape advocates now aren’t going to benefit in any way from that. No one else is going to benefit from that, certainly not THOSE guys if they get doxxed. The only one who benefits is Roosh who can spin those guys’ sacrifice (esp if one of them was actually beaten or shot or killed by a mob he purposely riled up) as danger to him that he needs to set up another press conference about btw plz donate thx every1

    That’s my take on it lol

  • Opus

    What a remarkable month! So far this year The United Kingdom Parliament’s House of Commons has devoted three hours of its time as to why Donald Trump – who wants to build a wall in America, not Britain, note, where all he wants to do is build a golf course and thus provide employment opportunities – should be refused a Visa and a further half -hour as to why Roosh V. – who made a Swiftean modest proposal – should likewise be turned down for a Visa. In Britain there is the government and likewise its official opposition and the opposition are expected to oppose but one could not put a cigarette paper’s width between the government’s Minister-ess for Misandry (not that that is what they call it) and the opposition’s female Shadow for the same. Proof if ever it was needed that where two women are put together they will always support Team Vagina – and in my view, evidence as to why women are better for the sake of the entire polity excluded from government.

    I like reading ROK. Whether Roosh is anything other than the Armchair Quarterback of seduction, I have my doubts, at least I have yet to see any evidence of his seduction abilities with women. He talks, I suspect, a good shag and one must always suspect men who boast of their sexual prowess – for the purpose is to laud it over other men. Some publicity is not worth having but then again Red Pill awareness is not I think likely to become mainstream any time soon. Expect more outrage.

  • batfish55

    Thanks for this. This is exactly what I’d been pondering. I’d expressed a very similar thought on TRP reddit, but was quickly shut down.

    I’d like TRP’s press to be as stoic as TRP teaches men to be: Let the feminists and nay-sayers hurl insults and accusations at TRP. What happens? They might land a hit, but then they slide off, leaving TRP unaffected. Stoic. Like a rock. Like a Man should be. TRP remains an ‘alternative’ mentality, but not further berated.

    The only real argument I’ve heard about why Roosh’s antics don’t make a difference is that if/when a male needs TRP, he’ll search for answers and he’ll find TRP. I do not agree. If a male is already searching for answers, then that means he’s BP, and if the answers he seeks are couched in a lifestyle that he’s vilified so strongly, he’ll write it off on principle Boom. Another one bites the dust.

    On a side note, likely to do with other poster’s points about Roosh’s money situation….I stopped reading RoK several months (a year? two?) ago. The posts used to be well thought-out ideas. Yea, there were a few inflammatory click-bait posts that might be there just to piss off feminists, but ‘lately’ I find it’s been less than intellectual and more angry, homophobic, and trollish. Less complex topics and more hater clicks mean more money. To him the cost is/was worth it. I’m just glad that I never contributed to RoK’s tip jar. Not if it turned out like this.

  • Culum Struan

    YaReally thanks dude. I just finished watching the previous Tyler infield..will try to watch this one tomorrow. It’s fantastic quality stuff. Both the pickup and the analysis.

    Also, I find it is useful even for me (as someone who buys into this philosophy already) to have reinforcement that looks and cash don’t matter, women just want emotional spikes etc. Whether that’s your posting or these videos or whatever..I still get so much of the social programming hammered into my head that I need to make an *ongoing* effort to hold the red pill view in my head..it’s not just a one off.

  • hoellenhund2

    It’s easy to say that fence-riding men who’d never heard of the manosphere (the manosphere Roosh disowned, remember?)

    In fact, he disowned it as early as 2013:

    http://www.rooshv.com/the-manosphere-is-lost

  • stuffinbox

    Either you are part of the problem or part of the solution.Pointing out the problems may be helpful but it is a long way from a solution.Just as any publicity is good publicity you can’t fight something like FI without making it stronger.Like water vs rock water always wins.The bottom up aproach is the only one that makes any sense in this light.
    Roosh don’t bring a knife to a gunfight,and if you find yourself in a hole put down the shovel,if you can’t lead or follow get out of the road.

  • Tom from RFNJ

    I appreciate your take on it, and I think you’re dead right in your assessment of the major players. But I disagree on it’s net effect.

    Roosh presents what looks to me like a very immature take on Red Pill truths. He looks at the same elephant that you and I do and see’s something completely different. And I think his presentation will resonate with an immature public that no longer understands the difference between reason and emotion.

    I think the most common mistake a man can make when trying to judge public perception is in assuming that everyone decides things and is persuaded by, the same things that he is. “I’m persuaded by facts and reason therefore facts and reason will persuade others.” is the classic error. I believe this is a mistake, and one that points to why the political right continues to lose ground to the left on every social issue except firearms. The American mind is closed. And the only thing that will ever have a chance of opening it again is outrage or fear.

    Another way to describe this is that I believe he’s moving the Overton window of the discussion. From that perspective the fact that his solutions are nothing but a reaction to feminism or that he’s being self promoting aren’t disadvantages, they’re advantages. When young men see the flare of outrage and come to see the blood, what they’ll find is a broader conversation. That’s sure to draw them much faster and more effectively than starting out with a cerebral discussion about evolutionary psychology, which to them is not only contrary to their original cultural programming, but also as foreign to them in it’s nature, as a discussion of 15th century Chinese poetry.

    Not every man is cerebral, or persuaded by cerebral arguments. But the goal should be to enlighten all men to the degree we can. Roosh speaks to one audience in a way they’ll get, and you speak to others in a more considered way. To his audience, the truth may matter, but it will always be secondary to how the truth makes them feel. (sound familiar?)

    Roosh’s arguments might not lead to a more stable version of western civilization, but young men’s ideas never do. They reject wisdom and try to reinvent the world. Twas ever thus. But at least his take will leave the door open for further consideration by the larger crowd.

  • LostInThePlantation

    O/T question for the community. Where I live in Austin (near 6th street, heh) there are a lot of single moms I am bumping into (most quite upfront about it out the blocks).

    What is the community’s take on dating young single moms? I am now 39 and I am concerned that my age and social status (some recognize me from a show I appeared on on primetime TV a few years back, and I published a couple of books too) will immediately pigeonhole me as a provider.

    I have run cheeky jerkboy game on a couple, and while they seem interested in me the underlying motivation still seems to be viewing me as a source of stability and resources.

    Is this a fruitless quest? I have no interest in pumping and dumping or spinning these ladies btw – grew up with a single mom and know first hand what the effect of this behavior by men can have on their emotional state and therefore kids. I’m just bumping into a lot of them and wondering whether its worth the risk.

  • hoellenhund2

    I stopped reading RoK several months (a year? two?) ago. The posts used to be well thought-out ideas. Yea, there were a few inflammatory click-bait posts that might be there just to piss off feminists, but ‘lately’ I find it’s been less than intellectual and more angry, homophobic, and trollish.

    It’s due to the shitty editorial model of RoK, which is the same as that of bygone Manosphere sites such as the Spearhead and In Mala Fide:

    “Well, I want to have this awesome website and shit, with as many readers as possible. But, like, it’s not like I have the time or resolve to run it alone. I want to have tons of articles here, but I can’t write them all myself. So’ll just recruit a bunch of fuckers willing to post here for free. They’ll be happy just to gather some attention and redirect traffic to their own blogs and stuff. It’s not like they have more time to do this than me, but if I recruit enough of them, I’ll end up with a website with lots of posts. Yeah!”

    The obvious problem is that the people willing to become contributors to your site are exactly the type of people who’ll most likely behave like trolls.

  • Tilikum

    Grrrrl power and open hypergamy

  • Tilikum

    @LostInPlantation

    “I have run cheeky jerkboy game on a couple, and while they seem interested in me the underlying motivation still seems to be viewing me as a source of stability and resources.”

    You are pretty hosed. Dating at that level (in your age and theirs) requires a special cruelty and dispassionate approach that your single mom likely socialized out of you.

    The hardest thing about growing your mind to see the world in reality is the examination of ALL your relationships, and the mother/son bond takes the biggest hit. Generally, a self-aware man just feels sorry for his dad.

  • Crossing the line | The Autistic Gamer

    […] post was inspired by a comment by YaReally (a pickup artist who comments on Rollo Tomassi’s blog).  Last Friday night I was dancing with […]

  • kfg

    @Lost in Translation:

    Given this: “I have no interest in pumping and dumping or spinning these ladies . . .”

    Than this . . .

    “I’m just bumping into a lot of them and wondering whether its worth the risk.”

    . . . is a negatory.

  • kfg

    Lost in Plantation got lost in translation. The brain is a funny thing sometimes. Sorry ’bout that.

  • Culum Struan

    @Lost In Translation: Obvious suggestion, go younger. I’m not famous but I’m a couple years younger than you and the younger they are the less likely they are to be interested in a provider.

    Being famous is great..just disqualify yourself as a provider. Lots of stuff in YaReally’s archive about how to disqualify as a provider. But the older they are the harder it is to do

  • Hugh

    Although I have been following Roosh for at least 8 years, I must reluctantly agree with much of what you say.

    As other commenters have suggested, something went wrong once RoK started publishing poorly thought out essays. Reaxxion was another step in the wrong direction.

    When Roosh published his original piece on rape I took it as a thought experiment, not as a policy ready for legislation. As such it was acceptable, but it has become a ready weapon for SJWs to beat him over the head. Worse, governments seem to dislike him too.

    In some old post Roosh warned against using irony or sarcasm when talking to the media as it would be evaluated at face value without regard for the tone in which it was said. It’s too bad he didn’t take his own advice…

  • uncrowned

    If men are genuinely looking for answers, they’ll find them. It’s their own responsibility. Some may stop at Roosh, others may go beyond. Not sure why you have a gripe about it.

  • Andy

    Great post. I completely agree. I just don’t see Roosh doing anything productive.

    “the lack of acceptance of the latter (even if you don’t do it yourself) has been seen as residual blue pill by Red Pill communities. I remember discussing it with Andy a few weeks ago.”

    @IAS

    I personally still don’t think that having a moral value to not fuck married women is “blue pill” as everyone was saying… But, my views on it have changed slightly. I guess I finally accepted that our morals are (and should be) shaped by our experiences and personal value system. I realize now that trying to enforce my value system on anyone else is just ignorant. I feel like an idiot for shaming people about it. One thing that really sticks in my mind about it is YaReally saying that one married chick would come over for 30 minutes… lol. I can’t judge. I still like to think that I wouldn’t knowingly fuck another man’s wife, but in reality, I don’t know how honest I’m being with myself.

  • kfg

    “If men are genuinely looking for answers, they’ll find them.”

    Answers are as think on the ground as leaves in the fall. Good ones are a bit harder to find.

  • recidivist

    I think ‘The Big Guy’ is being a little too hard on Roosh for not taking the High Road, especially since Roosh remains true to his self-described PUA role as a “performing monkey” designed to attract & hold the extremely short attention span of the distraction-seeking female.

    As for the crime of pandering to the MSM’s desire for a Disneyesque Manosphere Villain, Roosh is guilty-as-charged, insomuch as he plays the caddish bad boy with some (recently diminished) enthusiasm, with the intent of keeping his artificial badness fresh & marketable by always upping the outrage ante, coming off (more or less) as the clear victor in this most recent bit of planned theatre.

  • Sun Wukong

    @Andy

    I feel like an idiot for shaming people about it.

    You’re forgiven. We all knew we were right already.😉

    The reason your view bounced completely off me and a lot of other guys is that we’d already gone (in my case repeatedly and forcefully) through the thought process on both sides of the fence. I’d been where you were and where I am, and I much preferred where I am. No self shaming and no anger at the dudes who poached from me in the past. Reducing the anger in my life always seems to make it better.

    I still like to think that I wouldn’t knowingly fuck another man’s wife, but in reality, I don’t know how honest I’m being with myself.

    A few years in my shoes and you probably would. The SMV is about poaching the top quality mates. Period. In a country filled to the brim with fatties, that’s an even smaller pool than it would have been in the past. There’s even more pressure to poach in that reality.

    Fuck the fatties, or fuck another guy’s chick. It’s a shit choice, but at some point every single guy faces it. He needs to fuck some way or another, it’s just a matter of what compromise he makes to do it.

  • Andy

    “The reason your view bounced completely off me”

    @Sun

    pfffft. lol. You were PISSED…

    “Fuck the fatties, or fuck another guy’s chick. It’s a shit choice, but at some point every single guy faces it.”

    lol, where are all these chicks under 30 getting married??? I live in a different part of the country, but I just don’t see it happening around here.

  • scribblerg

    @Rollo – Your piece seems to want to tread a line where you don’t quite distance yourself from Roosh as much as you criticize him. It seems you’ve never quite grokked what a lowlife piece of shit Roosh is. I don’t care that he spouts Red Pill rhetoric, the rest is beyond the pale. And the “ironic” commentary he offered as a thought experiment about rape on private property was supposed to be suggestive, not just a thought experiment. He’s playing with angry men and violent ideas not just to promote himself but because he himself hates women in his own way. He’s not just taunting SJWs, he’s expressing real hatred and anger at women when he does this. It’s a pattern. Of course, I’m not calling for him to be shut down or justifying SJW idiocy, but just because they hate him doesn’t mean he’s worth defending.

    You are at a different level than him, but if you don’t want to be tarred with the same brush as him you should make clear where you stand on Roosh’s outright racism and misogyny. Your choice, just don’t expect guys like me to hang around if you continue to play footsie with lowlifes.

    Let me put it simply. Can you ever imagine writing a piece about female sexual agency that used a thought experiment about making rape legal on private property to explicate a point? Would you publish something like that here? Do you really think that the motivation for Roosh doing so is purely intellectual, in the sense that it makes his point clearer? Go even deeper, do you really think it’s just about promotion and being provocative? There is something quite evil cooking away in that crazy fuckers feral mind and you know that you would never consider publishing such garbage. You wouldn’t even come close – so why the careful critique? Why they half-assed defense of him? Why walk such a careful line?

    Roosh isn’t making promotional mistakes, he’s revealing his deformed morality and character. It was obvious to many of us long ago, perhaps due to your early connection with him and the role he played earlier in the Red Pill world you feel some kind of loyalty to him, who knows. Whatever it is, you need to make clear whether misogyny and racism are demanded by the Red Pill or not – I guarantee you Roosh believes they are.The question is what kind of Red Pill do you want to promote?

  • rugby11

    Men in groups are needed now more than ever.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @scrib, you’ll definitely want to listen in on Friday’s Livestream

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Men in groups are needed now more than ever.

    I agree. This is why Roosh’s tooling of not just SJWs but the men who presumed he was serious about meeting is so damaging. He doesn’t care about any pretense of Neomasculinity or Red Pill awareness and this is evident in his willingness to dupe men into being his Dancing Monkeys to serve his publicity.

    When we organized the Man In Demand conference, my first priority was to avoid EXACTLY this deliberate compromising of men’s identities and protecting their ‘bread’ so to speak.

    I told Christian I’d participate only if we could insure men’s privacy could be relatively assured. I did so because I wanted to avoid incidents like the BBC documentary crew who Roosh invited to be part of his London meeting without the knowledge of the men attending. Those men were blurred out in the video, but they were there under the pretense that their anonymity would be relatively protected.

    We had no feminist protests in Vegas, no incidents, we had men from every demographic, Fathers & sons came, military men, law enforcement men, men from all walks of life. We had a great meet up because the point of the meeting was to help and to educate.

    Imagine Roosh attempting another world wide meet up of the tribes now. He again publishes a comprehensive list on RoK alerting everyone who cares to read where to meet. Who now is going to believe he honestly wants men to get together for a beer?

    What was the point of these men getting together in the first place? The meet up sites were advertised for 6 weeks and organized under the loosest of pretenses because they were never meant to actually happen. The only purpose for them was to agitate counter protests to increase Roosh’s visibility.

    This was one of Roosh’s first tweets when the counter protest efforts were started:

    I honestly don’t care if Roosh has decided he wants to play the same game as Cernovich or Milo; my concern is for the men who become the collateral damage of his character reinvention.

  • Anonymous Reader

    What I don’t quite get is the cheering in the Neo-Masculinty gallery; “Dude, Roosh totally pwnd the press!”, it looks like wishful thinking. Six (6) individuals, one of them from the noted media engine of feminism Martha Stewart. That’s not exactly Amanda Marcotte or some bubble headed blonde from Fox. As kfg already wrote, Roosh has pretty poor speaking poise, Toastmasters or something similar would help – but wait, this is the Neo Masculinity guru guy, shouldn’t he have better public speaking skills than the mid level manager at the local Wal Mart?

    At best it looks like a draw. They tried to get Roosh to say some really stupid stuff and he didn’t, but he tried to shame them with “media bias” which hasn’t worked since ever. I saw on Drudge that Limbaugh slammed feminists the other day for having “sold their soul” to the Clintons 20 years ago, so stop whining about Hillary and Bill’s little bimbo eruption problem.

    What does it mean when the younger Roosh is less effective at a critique of femism than aging Limbaugh?

    Review the video. Ask yourself this question: if someone told you this was part of some indie flick that the Millennials were all watching, would you believe it? There’s an element of live action role play on both sides. Probably not intentionally, but it’s still there.

    I dunno. Dancing Monkey might not be the best role to play if a man is trying to pitch himself as The Only Real Neo Masculine Man in the room, y’know?

    And lastly, we’ll all just see how antifragile Roosh is. Getting dropped by Amazon is a potential hit, although there are other distribution channels for his writing. But the men who headed out to meetups? How many of them are antifragile? My guess is zero. Having one’s image in some night spot added to the “Pro Rape Evil Man Club” list would harm most of us in a lot of ways.

    Maybe this will play out as the Neo Masculinists want, but right now I don’t see any benefit to men, especially those that signed up for the meetups.

  • Divided Line

    As much as I love to see Roosh take on the MSM, I think it’s pretty clear that Roosh’s plan is to turn himself into Julien Blanc and cash in on whatever martyr dollars there are to be had. I agree, he doesn’t really care about anybody but himself and he’ll happily put other men at risk for personal gain. It’s not about advancing issues so much as it is about growing his bank account. And even if Roosh was legitimately trying to change hearts and minds, he simply isn’t charismatic or skilled enough to pull it off. As somebody pointed out here recently, he mostly comes off as the “rapey creep” people expect him to be.

    The thing is, if Roosh could generate negative attention, turn it around on the media, and win the debate, he’d be a hero. This is what AVfM has tried to do with varying levels of success. As Elam has pointed out, nobody pays attention when you play nice. They intentionally court outrage in the belief that it will drive traffic to the site where some will see the difference between the emotionally satisfying boogeyman narrative and the reality. That approach has worked better than any other. You can make many legitimate criticisms of Elam, but who has done more recently to successfully force conversations about these issues in public discourse?

    Nobody cares about men, not even men themselves. If you aren’t playing the bad guy they want to see and putting on a good show, nobody is going to be terribly interested in what you have to say one way or the other. It’s not like people are going to pay attention out of some sense of obligation or because they are capable of empathy. The MSM wants crazies and boogeymen while bloggers, journalists, and white knights want to virtue signal – they can’t help themselves. For this reason, infamy and notoriety are easily had for anybody who caters to their prejudices. If you wanted to advance debate about men’s issues, I really don’t see any other way to do it.

  • Stefan

    Well written as always. I have couple things to add. As a avid reader of RRR I appriciate what all of you are doing but the reality is that red pill is relatively small and is not getting attention/readership it deserves. Feminine Imperative is too strong and will silence any opposition as soon as it overgrows and represents real potential treat. Roosh is on his way to promote/expand red pill knowledge as much as he can and if he can cash in,why not. There are many betas who will after now finding about RoK,and by simple googling find that core is red pill and who the founding fathers arRRR. Whats he doing is giving ‘snake its head’ ,he didnt want to compromise all of you so he created Neomasculinity which is 90% red pill and he put himself at the front. The msm now have their villan and he gets fame and money he wanted. He knows this and he is playing it well. He also knows that all this thing will blow out if he ‘resignes’ and step down from writing. You guys😉 , write great stuff and you should and deserve equal ammount of money/fame which is sadly todays main currency.

  • Anonymous Reader

    Stefan
    Roosh is on his way to promote/expand red pill knowledge as much as he can and if he can cash in,why not. There are many betas who will after now finding about RoK,and by simple googling find that core is red pill and who the founding fathers arRRR.

    Here is the problem with your line of thought: the way most men will find out about Roosh now is via a search that turns up something like PRO-RAPE GUY. Blue pill men have a visceral reaction to the concept of rape, and are ready to string up any man even accused of rape. So they won’t be led to the red pill, they’ll reject it because of the association with raype.

    Go look at the deadbedrooms and divorce reddits. Those men are reflexively anti red pill, and Roosh’s dancing monkey antics will only push them further away, because when a blue pill man contemplates the word “rape” he envisions the object of his oneitis being attacked by a savage, not some college dude who “got lucky” at the college bar one night & now is a target of ASD regret…or worse yet, some college dude who accidentally brushed by some Women’s Studies co-ed’s ass on his way to class.

  • Sun Wukong

    @Andy

    pfffft. lol. You were PISSED…

    You just wish I was. It’s alright, you can still love yourself in spite of that fact.

  • Divided Line

    @Anonymous Reader

    “Here is the problem with your line of thought: the way most men will find out about Roosh now is via a search that turns up something like PRO-RAPE GUY. ”

    You’re going to be associated with rape either way.

  • The Question

    @ Rollo

    “I honestly don’t care if Roosh has decided he wants to play the same game as Cernovich or Milo; my concern is for the men who become the collateral damage of his character reinvention.”

    At this point that is really all that matters, because when ordinary men get doxxed or have their lives ruined they won’t be able to profit off of the notoriety or hold a press conference to explain themselves.

    Being under 30 and in media myself, I have little to say about this whole blowup except to point out that the conduct goes against everything I was taught about journalism. I could say more about what I observe in reporters my age, but I don’t see the point.

    @rugby11

    I agree. Men absolutely need their own “tribe” so to speak. These groups have to be formed organically, though. Trying to have one man coordinate them doesn’t work and this incident clearly shows why for a variety of reasons.

    Men really need to go their own way, wherever it takes them, and not take orders or direction from others. Whatever groups they associate with or form as a result should be based on mutual causes, goals or values. And men need to put their interests first, because no one else will do it for them, including other men.

  • Anonymous Reader

    Maybe Roosh could come up with his own line of Neo Masculinist emoji?
    Why should Monica Lewinsky own that space?

    http://buzz.blog.ajc.com/2016/02/08/monica-lewinsky-launches-anti-bullying-emoji-keyboard/

  • SJB

    @Rollo: I’m not sure Roosh’s antics can add to the damage a man incurs from the FI embedded in the public and private spheres. Those who seek will find; those who do not seek cannot see.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    This is why men need their own tribe:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/44qqum/25_million_men_have_no_close_friends_lets/

    I should also add that the whole ‘tribe’ concept was first considered by Jack Donovan in The Way of Men.

    Yeah, that homosexual Jack Donovan who would be explicitly excluded from Roosh’s Neomasculine ‘tribal’ meet ups.

    Milo on the other hand; he’s happy to have dinner with a homosexual so long as he has the kind of media reach Milo’s got.

    ‘Four legs good, two legs,…better’

  • kfg

    “Those who seek will find; those who do not seek cannot see.”

    And that, I’m afraid, is the answer to, “Why didn’t someone tell me?”

  • Rollo Tomassi

    It all depends on the first 3 Google returns viewed by those who seek.

  • nastynate

    Roosh is now the Alex Jones of the manosphere. Just like Alex Jones, Roosh has taken the concerns and ideas of legitimate researchers and journalists before him, and perverted them for his own profit. And now just like Jones, he’s fuckin clown. He’s the caricature of the manoshpere boogey man the establishment media wants, so they can push everyone in the sphere under the same nutjob umbrella.

  • concerningconcern

    Funny, my first though on seeing the ‘concern’ concept here was ‘troll.’ Yes, personal responsibility. Not all are as reluctant to be a messiah as Mr. Shimoda.

  • 262

    Rollo, if you wanted to prod your readers – around the world – into meeting each other, how would you do it? Or would you not prod them, and instead let them meet organically or at conferences?

    Also, suppose the Man in Demand conference had been compromised, despite all efforts to the contrary. What would you have done differently from Roosh, aside from apparently not engaging the media?

    By the way, I attended the RoK Warsaw meetup. No protests there. Also, on the Roosh V Forum, at a glance, it seems that the ones that were held, and that were outside the West, also encountered no protests.

  • Divided Line

    The whole Roosh thing reminds me of NWA. In real life they were just young guys from shitty neighborhoods who had few prospects, not ruthless gangbanging super villains and killers with endless rap sheets. The only member of the group that sold drugs was Eazy E, and he was just a low level dealer, probably on par with that guy you knew who sold weed in college. I believe Ice Cube went to some technical college.

    Really listen to the over-the-top lyrics, especially on their second and last album. They were going for broke, doing and saying anything they could to play to what people wanted and expected to see. Nobody would have paid attention or cared otherwise.

    Nobody cares about positive masculinity. Where it does exist, it’s just taken for granted and barely noticed. Go ahead and slave away and sacrifice, nobody notices or cares about your good-guy routine. They want villains. If society values women for their sexuality and men for strength and power, playing to what people most want from you and turning yourself into a cartoon villain is almost like a masculine version of being a trashy slut.

  • The Question

    @ Rollo

    What’s further ironic about it is you would never know that about Donovan, whereas Milo is…how did you describe him? – “A cheeky Brit with fabulously gay bleached hair.” Subtlety is not something he’s skilled at.

    Further irony is that Donovan clearly has his own tribe, and while someone might think they’re expertly LARPing, only a fool would say so to their face. https://www.instagram.com/p/8cbtGNAKKA/?taken-by=starttheworld

    I checked out the reddit thing and this struck a nerve: “Men seem to think there is something unmasculine about male friendships.”

    This is absolutely true, and it’s toxic.

    Years ago I was watching Band of Brothers and a female acquaintance came in the room and rolled her eyes and asked why I would want to watch a show where men get blown up.

    Because before they get blown up, the men get to have the kind of intimate friendships we aren’t allowed to have anymore because male spaces have been destroyed and attempts to create them at met with strong social stigma. That’s why.

  • hoellenhund2

    Excuse me, but you cannot build any “tribe” in a modernized, atomized, liberal society, much less a tribe of men. Tribes are bonded by blood and a shared destiny. Once they disappear, they don’t come back. Trying to build a tribe is a the purest form of LARPing.

  • Andy

    ” It’s alright, you can still love yourself in spite of that fact.”

    Checking my webcam… Mmmmm. Does anyone else start singing Uptown Funk when they look at themselves?

  • Shiva

    @scribb
    “@Rollo – Your piece seems to want to tread a line where you don’t quite distance yourself from Roosh as much as you criticize him. It seems you’ve never quite grokked what a lowlife piece of shit Roosh is.”

    Unlike you and me, Rollo’s name is out there. He should tread carefully lest be be slapped with a defamation suit.
    Roosh is dying out like the flickering flame of a candle. Going after him no holds barred will just breath life into it.

    “Roosh is now the Alex Jones of the manosphere.”

    Nope, Alex Jones is twisting and profiting from his endeavor but he is not burning down his cause/sphere. He is really a good one stop all non MSM info, but you got to use your brains.

  • Devil's Advocatt

    @Rollo

    I know you don’t generally do politics Rollo, but the previous “The War Brides of Europe” inadvertently made for a great opportunity to introduce a few blue pill buddies to your writing. With some really encouraging feed back.

    More of the same please.

    Oh, and if we can keep the Roosh saga out of the comments, even better.

  • Just For Fun

    Rollo, I enjoy your writing and have given away many of your books to friends and acquaintances who needed and benefitted from it. Indeed, your books on my bed stand have provided more than one occasion for some great post-coital discussions when the women I have over picks them up to browse.

    I have to tell you that I’m really disappointed to see you call Roosh out in the manner that you have. This is one of the few (perhaps only) posts I have ever read of yours that really does not add to the discussion. Frankly it reads as sour grapes, and almost gas lighting. I am quite certain neither of those where your intent. Keep up the otherwise good work. I look forward to your future articles and contributions to the betterment of men.

  • newlyaloof

    @Scribb, I’ve got much respect for you, but you insinuating Rollo is somehow a closet racist is beyond the pale. And then you threaten to walk away from his site if he doesn’t somehow come cleaner? Dude, that’s straight-up SJW shaming behavior. So what you have ONE black relative through marriage. Type in your zip code into a demographics site and it’s probably whiter than computer paper, dude. Now, I grew up with 75% non-white, LOW INCOME friends my whole life. Black culture and life experiences are infused in my blood. Should I tell you how sheltered and racist you are because you may not have experienced black people until your 50s through a marriage?

    Again, man, I have mad respect for what you’ve posted here and all the help you’ve given me, but I think your emotional investment in this race issue caused you to shoot off a bit too far here toward Rollo.

    End rant. Now back to YaReally’s awesome comment to remind us of where we should devote most of our emotional energy to instead of this shit that tears dude’s apart.

  • kfg

    “I’m really disappointed to see you call Roosh out in the manner that you have.”

    “C’est magnifique, mais ce n’est pas la guerre. C’est de la folie.”

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Am I gas lighting when I say Athol Kay’s MMSL primer was a great book that I fully endorsed, but now he’s sold all of that out in allowing women/wives run his show?

    Am I gas lighting when I point out that Mark Manson and Evan Mark Katz are marketing watered down Purple Pill ideals primarily to post-Wall professional spinsters for their revenue?

    Am I gas lighting when I detail how Tucker Max suffers from the same financial necessity to rebrand himself – going so far as to blank out his face and leave his wife’s on the cover of his latest book – after building his rep on his (ostensibly) PUA beginnings after publicly renouncing it all and begging forgiveness from women?

    Am I gas lighting for giving my opinion on Mark Minter’s “transformation”?

    Am I gas lighting by pointing out the easily documented flip-flop of Aunt Giggles, Sunshine Mary or any other previously Red Pill woman who swings the other way now?

    Now, with all that in mind, if I were to just blow off Roosh and his own rebranding what would you think of my take on my decision to write about all those others and not Roosh?

    I liked the old Roosh very much. I credited him in both my books for his insight at the time. So how much integrity do I have if I don’t point out the misdirections of someone whom I used to hold in respect?

  • scribblerg

    @Rollo – I’m working from home on Friday so I’ll tune in if I can. But let’s be clear:

    There is a version of ‘Red Pill’ out there which claims anarchy, race realism and a return to ‘traditional values’ in which women are subjugated is demanded by being Red Pill. I say that isn’t so. What say you?

    Race Realism – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    Anarchy – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    Treating women like second class citizens and spraying hate at them collectively, non-stop (Roosh’s properties all do this) – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    Return to Traditional Values like more fundamentalist Christianity – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    Easy enough for you to lay out and answer here.

    Me? As an atheist, the very idea that our salvation as a society lies in embracing Christianity in this modern age is absurd, and reactionary. We need to form something going forward that respects complementarity and the family and also rejects radical egalitarianism, yet is modern (meaning based on reason, not mythology as is the humanism of classical liberalism, “the pursuit of happiness” is a humanist ideal, not a Christian one). I think female sexual agency can be restrained simply by men becoming stronger men and via Red Pill education done in private ways, which will create a stronger innate male counterbalance. We still retain vast amounts of power as men but we are mismanaging it. We don’t need the state or some mythology to sort this out.

    Tell us, Rollo, do you see a Christian nationalism, fighting side by side with “race realists”, as the path to progress and victory? Yes or no.

    Direct questions and they deserve direct answers. Please do so I can know who I’m making common cause with.

  • Sun Wukong

    Roosh’s biggest issue is the lack of positive energy coming from him these days. It’s made him kind of irrelevant to me for a while. Watching his nuclear meltdown from the sidelines might be kind of amusing, but honestly aside from saying “No, he’s not a rape advocate. He’s just an idiot” I really can’t concern myself with his fate.

    I know what he’s doing is annoying, stupid, and yes some people will get hurt. It’s made a lot worse if we keep giving him attention. That attention gets more eyeballs, more money, and more pull to drag more suckers along in his wake. Better to just cut our losses now and ignore him as much as possible.

    Besides, how is this little internet/media spat in any way about “positive” masculinity? It seems a lot more like a bunch of little high school girls having a cat fight to me. Laugh at them and move on. We got better shit to do.

  • nastynate

    @Shiva
    “Nope, Alex Jones is twisting and profiting from his endeavor but he is not burning down his cause/sphere. He is really a good one stop all non MSM info, but you got to use your brains.”

    Well, that all depends on how you look at it. If your intention is NOT to burn down your cause, you DON’T constantly made idiotic predictions that don’t come true, you DON’T howl and scream at and disrespect guests on your own program, and you DON’T go onto major network programs and froth at the mouth like a fucking moron. I’ve known about Jones since before 9/11 happened. He’s a sensationalist, a big media shill and a peddler of fear porn. Fuck Alex Jones and FUCK ROOSH.

  • Razorwire

    @LostinThePlantation

    No, not worth the risk. Avoiding the single moms as a rule first entered my blue-pill brain probably well over 10 years ago, thanks to Tom Leykis. Even though, at the time, I thought him to be overly harsh regarding this policy I could still feel that something was right about it.

    Through the blue pill lens I was overly focused on this policy as a function of how it *seemed* critical, unfairly judgmental, and overly dismissive of single mothers.

    The blue pill assures that the point of origin is always the woman. Even with a critical, careful eye this focus on the women lends too easily to oneitis and NAWALT. Both dead ends.

    Leykis was saying “avoid single moms like the plague” not just because they are ALL this or that, full of flaws, etc. but because his view – and the view he wanted his men to adopt, was one of abundance.

    There are plenty of women without kids, why bother with the added risks and other operational dynamics that all amount to exacting more energy, resources, and subordination from you?

    Look to your premise. Provider signaling is not your main problem, the problem is that cohort of women are highly attuned to that signal. They have 20x the receptors. You could be a piece of shit but have a *real* job and many would see that as provider time. Many of these women are the same ones who lament that all they really want is a man with a job, as in “a” job. Thats it. A ‘normal’ guy with a job. My brother lives in the rural deep south. There are places where teeth and a nice truck will be enough.

    For them, every guy is a potential provider until proven otherwise. This proof often requires a level of disregard for her that does not come easily to most men, so in many ways it becomes the same kind of work or game that you would be doing but instead of doing it to optimize your own ends you are doing it to mitigate potential damage from being drawn into her ends.

    Sure, a lot of single moms are “easy”, but that’s because they know they’ve got to give it up to compete. Their own sense of compensatory sexual calculations are iterating voraciously. Others advertise that they are financially set (ex is cutting checks or whatever) as an attempt to disarm the natural hesitation of becoming the next walking wallet. Still others are hot enough that the thirsty provider beta market is still thick enough for them to maintain their delusions. None of these are worth your time.

    In any case, Leykis was right. Single moms have already established they can and will have babies (so, fertile Mertyl may forget her pill.) They have already decided to breed but *somehow* have not made good on the natural order of paired bonding. They (and will often tell you directly) have priorities that do not involve you at all, namely: her kids. You will never be her priority. Talk about frame.

    As an older guy myself (43) I run into the age related provider issue a lot. And I come here and bitch about it [the epiphany to post-wall cohort] sometimes just because it helps me to reign in some of my own minimizing thinking.

    The issue about being pigeonholed as a provider starts in my own head. It is me trying to shake the beta-provider training, the ego validation and self-worth that had been tethered to my ability and willingness to give, sacrifice, and subordinate for the benefit of others. It is really sticky programming. But I’ve incrementally made progress to overwrite this with what benefits me and my purpose.

    I’ve also learned a lot about not letting my own ideas about myself cock-block me. Kind of like how men have the tendency to giver her reasons not to bang them, we don’t need to spend so much time fretting over how provider-ish we might be when we should be thinking about how this ‘problem’ really translates as high-value traits that we can leverage to our own ends.

    Her desire to find a provider is her problem. As long as your resources and behaviors are aligned with your goals and your purpose vis a vis “dating”, the women will come go just the same, but according to your needs.

    For me, most of this fear of being viewed as a wallet is woven into my discomfort with being viewed as a sexual beast. Which is strange because I am a man with a high sex-drive. So I’ve had to admit that my comfort zone is that of the dutiful ‘equal’ partner and then work to push myself out of that comfort and into the sex-beast dimension. No easy task to re-arm the dimensions of my life and personality that were disarmed so long ago.

    We have to first accept and embrace ourselves as these objects of raw sexual desire before we can expect women to do the same. I still revert to the old program too easily and I will occasionally catch myself and correct. Other times, not so much. Until we presume the sale – the sale as a dominating, sexual beast as the primary dimension of engagement with women, that provider stuff will continue to creep in.

    Just the other day a plate sent me a text: “you are like the biggest hunk ever, I totally want to make out with you.” What was most striking to me was that I tend not to see myself this way. And when women are direct about it, I am a bit uncomfortable.

    I tend to internalize an image of myself that is highly critical. I see what I’m lacking, they see what I’m packing. The provider stuff is just as much about my own inability to embody the alternative as it is about whatever the women are looking for. Hell, all women want a provider, at some point, so I have something they want. Great. They can show me why they deserve it. And they can move on if they aren’t getting what they want. Attractive women will find the guy to settle down with. I’m cool with being the guy they just want to bang. But its tricky to keep the provider image (which is really about self-doubt) from reversing that on me.

    So I’ve still got work to do. But in the meantime I’m going to shag her rotten according to my terms – that have nothing to do with my nice house or employment and everything to do with the fact that I am a fit motherf*cker that answers to nobody but my heart and my god. She’s welcome to hang out, but there’s no gravy train. Just an engine.

  • Culum Struan

    @scribblerg dude, although not an atheist, I agree with your views on the Red Pill being distinct from all the negative stuff you mentioned above (that dilution is a big part of the reason why several of us moved here from CH following YaReally a little while ago).

    That said, I think it is important to note that even if I disagree with someone’s views on a subject like “race realism” (as I did with CH), that doesn’t take away from the validity of their views on other subjects (such as the core red pill). My problem with CH was not his unpleasant political views (I can just ignore those), but that those views were diluting and drowning out the content on his blog that I actually cared about.

    I have no idea what Rollo’s views on the above subjects are, but I actually don’t care. Unlike CH he’s not dragging extraneous opinions into discussions of the Red Pill and I see enormous value in the core Red Pill discussions – in his posts and in these comments. That won’t change based on whether he happens to agree or disagree with me on extraneous issues, if you see what I mean.

    As a separate issue, everyone has their own personal definition of “the Red Pill” – to me, the core of it is AF/BB, hypergamy and its consequences – both on a micro-level (pickup and my personal interactions) and the macro-level (the FI, which Rollo writes about a lot).

  • Culum Struan

    @Razorwire – agreed. Have you considered actively disqual from providership by saying you’re married, or have a girlfriend or whatever? I’m a bit younger than you (36) and this is a real issue – not just single mothers but also a lot of 35-40 year olds whose bio clock is ticking like a bomb and who are ready to settle down and pop babies any moment.

    I’m thinking about experimenting with wearing a fake wedding ring and trying to pickup. Not even actively mentioning a wife, unless asked.

  • The Other Jim

    Was Roosh’s press conference as bad as his critics describe? No, but he managed to survive it. I rather divided about this latest episode from Roosh. On one hand I suspect this meet-up and the reaction to it blew up in his face to something he didn’t expect and I think he responded adequately, more or less. On the other hand it does fit a pattern when one examines his willingness to promote himself on these Oprah-style daily tv shows where women get their inner virago on. The appearance on Dr. Oz was cringeworthy. Roosh’s appearances on the Ukrainian and the Romanian talk shows was just ghastly. Roosh might was well sign up to be Howard Stern’s sideshow sidekicks.

  • Sun Wukong

    @Culum

    I’m a bit younger than you (36) and this is a real issue – not just single mothers but also a lot of 35-40 year olds whose bio clock is ticking like a bomb and who are ready to settle down and pop babies any moment.

    This is a big part of why I avoid that demographic. They’re less physically attractive than their younger counterparts, more likely to provider pigeonhole you, more likely to be single moms already, and more likely to establish frame by saying they don’t fuck on the first date straight out of the gate. So I’d say a big part of disqualifying yourself as a provider right up front is abandoning/avoiding that demographic, hence my own work at trying to find where the younger crowd is at in town.

    If you just want to fuck, find the young ones without kids. Steer well clear of single moms and older chicks.

    I’m thinking about experimenting with wearing a fake wedding ring and trying to pickup. Not even actively mentioning a wife, unless asked.

    I know there’s guys that swear it’s a fun exercise, but it seems like a way to label yourself “provider” by virtue of obviously doing so for another woman already. Then again, it’s also obvious social proof (“Somebody married him so he must be worth something”) so I’m not really sure how it works out on balance.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Women are subjugated is demanded by being Red Pill. I say that isn’t so. What say you?

    Subjugation is a relative term. If I say women respond to conventional masculine dominance as part of evolved psychological firmware in women here on this blog, we all understand what I’m getting into, but every women’s studies major who reads that presumes I’m advocating hostile subjugation of women. Just look what happened when I dropped a single comment about Christian men employing Dread with their wives on BGR.

    That said, no, subjugation in my estimate implies an exercise of control that’s rooted in Beta insecurity.

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/01/08/possession/
    https://therationalmale.com/2012/05/07/ultimatum/

    Race Realism – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    Are their differences in the biological make up of various races of humanity? Yes. Are their cultural and ethnic differences in intergender dynamics? Yes, in fact that’s one of the strengths of the ‘open source’ nature of TRP. Are those differences predicated on racial attributes? It depends on that culture’s specific challenges. There are many cross cultural/ethnic commonalities with regard to arousal and attraction.

    Now, since what you’re really asking is is racism a Red Pill prerequisite, I’ll always say no. The Red Pill is a praxeology that benefits from the input of all races experience in intergender dynamism. Just as I stated in Complementarity; the “superiority” of anyone’s innate talents or characteristics, man or woman, from any race is only defined by how they meet the challenges of a particular task or environment. It is stupid and arrogant to discount the racial/ethnic (even sexual orientation) experiences of intergender dynamics.

    Law 18 – Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself – Isolation is Dangerous

    Anarchy – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    No. It’s irrelevant to Red Pill awareness. You can be Red Pill aware and practice it exclusive of government. Intersexual dynamics evolved both independent of, and within, social constructs.

    Treating women like second class citizens and spraying hate at them collectively, non-stop (Roosh’s properties all do this) – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    Again subjective. Go over to InsanityBytes’ blog and ask her how ‘hateful’ I or Dalrock are in our posts. Should women be treated as sub-human? No, and it was a question I explored in Our Sisters’ Keeper. However, the perception of my brining to light the sometimes ugly truths about women will always be indistinguishable from ‘hate’ in a social order founded on feminine-correctness and feminine-primacy.

    I’ve been married of almost 20 years now. My honor society, model daughter will be 18 this April. I’ve made a career involving working with beautiful women for more than 12 years now. You already know the answer to that question.

    Return to Traditional Values like more fundamentalist Christianity – Part of the Red Pill, yes or no?

    Christianity does not have a monopoly on ‘traditional values’. That said, no, which is why I’ve always separated TRM from aligning with any dogmatic interpretations.

    But again, you already know the answer to all of these questions:

    https://therationalmale.com/2015/04/30/the-political-is-personal/

    It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

    Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

    This is what scares the shit out of critics who attempt to define, contain and compartmentalize the manosphere / Red Pill awareness; it’s bigger than social, racial, political or religious strictures can contain. It crosses all of those constructs just as the Feminine Imperative has co-opted all of those cultural constructs. The feminized infrastructure of the MSM that’s just beginning to take the manosphere seriously enough to be critical are discovering this and trying to put the genie back into a bottle defined by their feminine-primary conditioning.

  • bob bitchin

    Rollo has a gift for pattern recognition viz-a-viz human behaviour that is likely at the very extreme right of the curve. He writes essay after essay, expounding on issue upon issue. We all benefit from it.
    Further, like attracts like. Hence, Yareally is here. Awesome!
    It’s free. Awesomissimo!!
    I don’t care what his take is on economic theory, bigfoot, fluoride, ufos, israel-palestinian issues, 9/11, jfk or boxers v briefs. It never occurred to me to ask.

    I used to read ROK but it degenerated imho. CH as well.
    I’m happy that this space exists and I get to hear othet guys experiences.
    I go to other blogs to follow the diverse and boring-to most-interests I have.
    @rollo: thx for your energy and insights. great stuff

  • Anonymous Reader

    Scribblerg

    Direct questions and they deserve direct answers. Please do so I can know who I’m making common cause with.

    Perhaps you could take all those issues up in detail on your own blog?

  • HowlingManTodd

    The plight of the beta

  • 10x10

    @scribblerg

    You need to make a distinction between the “red pill” and the alt-right. The “red pill” is biologic realism. In the sexual realm, female hypergamy is one of the main concepts but there are others. In the socio-economic realm, its racial hereditarianism and the biological differences that exist between the races; essentially “human bio-diversity”. This is the continuing exploration of human nature assisted by post 1970s scientific research made easily assessable by the internet. “PUA” comes out of this.

    Now the alt-right, which is what you are referring to, is a far right reaction to the Left and the mainstream Conservative movement which is a modern upgrade of paleo-conservatism. There are many factions within it but the one thing they all have in common is a racial nationalism. Roissy (now CH) is one of the fathers of the alt-right (as well as the Manosphere). He is the one that used the knowledge about female psychology gleaned from PUA and applied it to socio-sexual dynamics and then linked that to both racial and sexual politics.

    I’m very libertarian and do not like the solutions that the alt-right provides. But, I do find a lot of value in their commentary as they understand racial and sexual dynamics better than everyone else out there. They don’t understand economics and they almost always end up as pro-white, pro-(moderate) socialist nationalists, and I dislike that. But they understand the evil of the Left and the cowardice of the Conservatives.

    Rollo and the non alt-right Manopshere are apolitical commenters on the sexual dynamics of modern society. Rollo’s chief focus is hypergamy. I find this information useful, but in the end you have to chose a political side.

    If you go down the path of biologic realism you can not have sex realism without race realism. If there is pre-installed hardware that effects human behavior then its effects are both at the racial and sexual levels. You can’t ignore one because you want to be less controversial. Black and brown skinned people are more r-selected in their sexual reproductive strategies. They also have lower IQs. These things have consequences.

    What politics you eventually choose is up to you but factoring in biology is important. Up until this point, all politics has been race and sex blind. This is not just true of leftism and mainstream conservatism, but also of Classical liberalism and its offshoot libertarianism. (The old right was red pill in the sense that they were racialist and patriarchal, but they were like that because of traditionalism not because they had knowledge of science and biology.) I would love to see libertarianism capture the future, but it won’t so long as its advocates are Blue Pill on race and sex, which all of them are. The only political movement which is currently biologically grounded is the alt-right, and sadly they are racial nationalists, culturally Christian, advocates of traditional patriarchy as well as massive economic interventionism (some of them outright pro-Hitler national socialists; ie the 14-88 crowd). That’s depressing if you are a Classical liberal, but it is what it is.

    Jeff Deist (of Mises.org) explains the alt-right (as well as the mainstream center and the socialist left) in this video. It is well worth watching.

  • scribblerg

    @Rollo – The hate/misogyny issue is one of judgment and I’ve exercised mine wrt Roosh and his crowd, he goes well beyond what is understandable anger and frustration into deep hate and denigration. Frequently, and excludes all who object from commenting – he’s built a cesspool. As well, you are correct, I felt I did know the answers but wanted you to explicate just so the race realists coming over here, and the truly vile haters, can be clear this isn’t Return of Kings redux or CH2. Many of us are here because you aren’t a racist, women hating asshole.

    @Culum – I don’t make common cause with scumbags like Roosh or racists of any sort. I don’t have friends who hate women and treat them awfully either. I do denigrate people who behave so because social shaming is a powerful tool for keeping such people at bay. It’s not okay with me and I won’t be nice to them. And I have no need of their other views, there are plenty of people who are smart enough in this world who aren’t racists. Also, hint-hint, taking such a position reveals a weak intellect so it should signal one to question the other views/positions of a racist. It’s not just that racism is morally wrong, it’s also stupid.

    @Sun – I’m with you. Roosh is boring as shit. I’d gotten off the beam late last week with some crap I’m dealing with, back on plan today. More field reports coming soon…I’m starting to see what takes me out of being empowered and on my game, it’s interesting. More junk to flatten out in who I’m being, which is the name of the game.

  • Guy

    @Rollo,

    As a longtime reader and someone whose purchased the Rationale Male, I’m a bit disappointed with your takedown of Roosh. I will say that he’s done things in the past which I’ve disagreed with and been disappointed by, and I think healthy disagreement is necessary sometimes. However, I think you’re misrepresenting the situation, and it comes off as unwarranted antagonism. While not as explicitly, you’re painting him with the same mischaracterization as the ‘bloggers’ you lament.

    He was organizing an informal and innocuous meetup for like-minded men to get together and grab a beer. As far as I can tell, the only way to reach a wide network of men throughout the globe in multiple locations is to organize it publicly. Considering the pretense for the meetup was an innocent social gathering and not to protest or advocate anything, I see no reason for him to expect any major trouble. Maybe I’m being naive, but he strikes me more of someone who plans for the best and makes adjustments on the fly.

    It was only after SJWs started making death threats over absurdly false allegations did the environment change. As it was happening, I felt like I was living in an episode of the twilight zone. The pretense for their behavior was so absurd I don’t see how any rational person could expect it. Roosh tried his best to manage the fallout and organize private meetings in a short turnaround, and despite knowing he would disappoint many people for doing so, opted to cancel the meetings to protect the well being of his readers. I would also propose that he’s making an effort to manage the fallout even with minimal resources.

    Over the years he’s done a lot of largely thankless work. The forum he runs, RVF, has been a tremendous positive influence in my life. It’s connected a lot of rational thinking, successful men together and built informal offline networks. I’ve met some lifelong friends through the site, and used it to improve my financial, physical, and emotional well being. I’ve leveraged a lot of the advice to plan out vacations and gain invaluable knowledge. Administering it is a large drain on his time and energy, it is a large potential liability, and he could focus his limited time on much more lucrative pursuits.

    Rollo, I really respect the work you’ve done over the years, and I hope you take some time to consider the above. Again, I think disagreement, criticism, and at times even disassociation can be healthy outlets. But we have enough enemies arrayed against us, this in-fighting is over the line and will not help anyone.

  • Blaximus

    10×10

    ” I’m very libertarian and do not like the solutions that the alt-right provides. But, I do find a lot of value in their commentary as they understand racial and sexual dynamics better than everyone else out there. They don’t understand economics and they almost always end up as pro-white, pro-(moderate) socialist nationalists, and I dislike that. But they understand the evil of the Left and the cowardice of the Conservatives. ”

    *sigh* I shouldn’t comment….. but what the hell.

    You made a mistake in stating that ” they ” ( CH especially ) understand racial dynamics. That’s what I find sick. Guys go to CH and hear all of that bullshit he spews and they just accept it as fact because CH does make other good points.

    I admit, I occasionally peek in on CH because roissy is a great writer and cracks me up from time to time, but he has an enormous, racist blindspot. He doth protest way too much.

    I do find it fascinating how he/people can have such strong intellect, but have such an emotional, hateful and visceral reaction to racial subjects, so much so that he sounds like a dumb ass clown…or assclown, when he broaches the subject.

    So the ” understand ” column is not as broad as you may think.

    That’s one reason I only have a basic, passing kind of empathy towards Roosh in his predicament. Why can’t his superior IQ get him out of trouble? Lol.

    I defend both CH and Roosh in the right to free speech and free though. But personally? Lmfao, fuck ’em both.

  • Blaximus

    ” If you go down the path of biologic realism you can not have sex realism without race realism. If there is pre-installed hardware that effects human behavior then its effects are both at the racial and sexual levels. You can’t ignore one because you want to be less controversial. Black and brown skinned people are more r-selected in their sexual reproductive strategies. They also have lower IQs. These things have consequences.”

    You’re entitled to your beliefs.

    I’d appreciate it, as a Black and/or Brown person if you’d take this shit to CH’s comment section.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    Try not to forget that Roissy has been CH for years now because of the dust up between him an Lady Raine back in 09

  • YaReally

    @Anonymous Reader
    “Blue pill men have a visceral reaction to the concept of rape, and are ready to string up any man even accused of rape. So they won’t be led to the red pill, they’ll reject it because of the association with raype. ”

    “when a blue pill man contemplates the word “rape” he envisions the object of his oneitis being attacked by a savage”

    For an example of this visceral reaction, see scribblerg’s comments about Roosh’s legalize rape THOUGHT EXPERIMENT lol holy shit.

    @scribblerg

    Time to take a chill pill yo. I can’t believe I have to defend Roosh but here are quotes from his SUPER TOTALLY 100% SERIOUS ARTICLE ABOUT LEGALIZING RAPE:

    “This issue concerns me since I have a sister who I don’t want to be raped, so I *carefully examined the articles on Salon, Buzzfeed, and Huffington Post* that were *written by professional journalists who pursue truth and justice over mass hysteria and delirium.*”

    “Thankfully, a man only has to be told the phrase “rape is bad” at some point after puberty by an *overweight feminist to definitively stop his future brutal and bloody rape career. It’s a miracle that more men have not raped their mothers, babysitters, and sisters before being taught in college that rape is actually not a good thing.*”

    “After only one such sour experience, she will actually want to get fully acquainted with a man for longer than two hours— *perhaps even demanding to meet his parents—instead of letting a beer chug prevent her from making the correct decisions to protect her body.*”

    “*If a woman is indeed a child* then maybe we really need to keep promoting “rape culture” as a way to keep them safe, *but if they are actual adults, which is often claimed, then we can start treating them like adults* by allowing them to take responsibility for the things that happen to them *which are easily preventable with barely a strain of cognitive thought, awareness, and self control.*”

    If you can’t understand that he’s being sarcastic/satire/irony/whatever you want to call it, in his usual Roosh deadpan sense of humor way, I don’t even know how to explain it to you lol Do you get outraged reading this?:

    http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

    “I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled …”

    OMG HE ACTUALLY WANTS PPL TO EAT BABIEZ!!!!!111 THIS IS NOT SATIRE THIS IS A SUGGESTION BECAUSE I AM WORKED UP EMOTIONAL ABOUT IT LIKE A DOG BARKING AT A CAR AND I AM DECLARING IT TO BE A GLIMPSE INTO JONATHAN SWIFT’S DARK MONSTEROUS SOUL!!!!111

    It sounds like someone you know or someone in your family has been raped, or you’ve pictured the idea of your daughter being raped and it’s such a horrible thing to you that the very idea that anyone anywhere would ever talk or joke about rape is the devil incarnate, but this is a Red Pill forum where men discuss shit that isn’t politically correct and Roosh’s article is VERY CLEARLY a thought experiment and poking the feminist bear for outrage, not an actual suggestion.

    It’s cool if you just don’t want to read discussions about rape, but running around here flailing your arms clutching your pearls trying to shame everyone and demanding they don’t talk about subjects you don’t like and that they answer all your shit and take everything as overly serious as you do and get as worked up as you are is just silly. Leave if you want, the forum and Rollo are here to help you…if you want to LARP about “who you’re making common cause with” that’s your choice but don’t harass Rollo like you’re some “Do you believe women deserve the same pay as men? THEN YOU’RE A FEMINIST HAH GOTCHA!!!!!” SJW-tard.

    @Anonymous Reader @scribblerg
    “Perhaps you could take all those issues up in detail on your own blog?”

    This. Quit trying to dictate who’s allowed to talk about what here. You’re not a moderator, and the more worked up emotional rage/threatening you get about it the more ridiculous it looks. This is the INTERNET…puffing your chest at guys might get them to roll their eyes and back down in real life because they realize it’s not worth arguing with a worked up old man, but on the internet it makes it look like you just don’t understand how the internet works lol Quit pushing people around on someone else’s blog.

    @Rollo @scribblerg
    “The Red Pill is a praxeology that benefits from the input of all races experience in intergender dynamism.”

    This. The entire concept of racism is retarded to the actual PUA community which is FULL of minorities and shit, from students to instructors. RSD has has asian, indian, black, etc instructors. A ton of my friends, from as far back as childhood even, let alone groups I’ve met and become good friends with since I started pickup, are minorities. That shit is 100% a Manosphere thing and part of why I roll my eyes at how bitter and angry the Manosphere is compared to actual PUA communities. I don’t even consider guys like Krauser or Roosh to be PUAs, they’re “Manosphere PUAs” which are guys who’ve taken and repackaged PUA shit but thrown their own personal issues into it (like Krauser’s racisty meltdown on the RVF). It’s all ridiculous shit to the PUA community. You know how many threads there were on RSDNation about Roosh? Fucking zero lol No one cares, he’s just some angry homophobic racisty asshole. We’re cool with gay people too lol Lots of us have friends that are gay or hang with lesbians etc. All that bitter angry shit is from the bowels of the Manosphere and part of the reason I bailed on CH for TRM is that if Rollo DOES talk about race etc it’s through the lens of a productive discussion and not “nigger this, jew that, which race is the supreme race” lol whereas CH has just decided to pander to a specific outrage audience.

    @10×10
    “You can’t ignore one because you want to be less controversial. Black and brown skinned people are more r-selected in their sexual reproductive strategies. They also have lower IQs. These things have consequences.”

    lol I can point you to a fuckload of “black and brown skinned people” born and raised in North America who are beta as fuuuuuck and are more blue pill chode than white nerds at a World of Warcraft convention, and another fuckload of “black and brown skinned people” who are doctors lawyers etc from the crowds I used to roll with. There probably ARE biological differences/trends based in race, I don’t really know or care, but they’re insignificant because social/cultural programming can overcome them. Unfortunately there’s a lack of GOOD programming out there.

    @Culum
    “I have no idea what Rollo’s views on the above subjects are, but I actually don’t care. Unlike CH he’s not dragging extraneous opinions into discussions of the Red Pill and I see enormous value in the core Red Pill discussions – in his posts and in these comments. That won’t change based on whether he happens to agree or disagree with me on extraneous issues, if you see what I mean. ”

    This.

    @Sun Wukong
    “This is a big part of why I avoid that demographic. They’re less physically attractive than their younger counterparts, more likely to provider pigeonhole you, more likely to be single moms already, and more likely to establish frame by saying they don’t fuck on the first date straight out of the gate.”

    lol this. To me there’s literally nothing but downsides to the 25+ crowd. Watch the Tyler infield footage I’ve been linking, and Julien’s SHIFT infield, Ozzie’s infield…<25yo girls don't care if you're older than them (as long as it doesn't bother YOU), so why would a guy waste his time with the 25+ baggage/damage cases when he can just spend his time focusing on getting rid of his age hangups and macking the <25yo crowd?

    The unfortunate part is that a lot of the <25yo in 2016 is ALSO single moms and ALSO often have boyfriends lol

    @LostinThePlantation
    http://www.mgtowhq.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=104

    @newlyaloof
    "End rant. Now back to YaReally’s awesome comment to remind us of where we should devote most of our emotional energy to instead of this shit that tears dude’s apart."
    ❤ All this shit is fun to talk about, but end of the day get out there and talk to some hotties lol

  • YaReally

    @Guy
    Nice try, Roosh! lol

  • Blaximus

    ” Try not to forget that Roissy has been CH for years now because of the dust up between him an Lady Raine back in 09″

    I vaguely remember that she semi-doxxed him.

    I mean, it’s funny, some of the stuff he says and I’m not great advocate of political correctness by any stretch, but he is really angry about it and it seems to cloud his judgment, if he ever really had any.

    I just stay away mostly. I get annoyed when that CH sentiment creeps into wherever I happen to be. Always catches me by surprise.

    I’ve been lambasted by both CH and Roosh in their comment sections. If I was a dick, I could rival Anonymous as far as doxxing them, but that would make me as vindictively simple as I accuse them of being.

    I’m just thankful that my lower IQ has not hindered my ability to acquire the skills to ruin both of these…er..gentlemen. Let ’em live in their own little box.

  • YaReally

    aww I thought the asterixes would bold shit. I DON’T UNDERSTAND WORDPRESS AT ALL.

  • Blaximus

    Wassup with all the ” old man ” hate Ya? Lol.

  • Divided Line

    @10×10

    Mr. Deist argues that “identity politics is at the heart of the socialist left,” but if you look at the split between Sanders and Clinton supporters, it’s pretty clear that the side most interested in identity politics is the Clinton side. Hence the “Bernie Bro” myth. Sanders’ support has less to do with identity politics and more to do with the fact that young people can’t start their lives in the “new economy” of disposable people. His support really has very little to do with identity politics and everything to do with the failure of neoliberal economic theory. The right always confuses the bourgeois left with the proletarian left.

  • YaReally

    @Blaximus
    It’s because I secretly hate old men and propose that they should be eaten to solve world hunger, the wrinkles will make them taste like large raisins. O NO WATCH OUT SCRIBBLERG IS GONNA GET ME FOR PROPOSING LEGAL CHANGES THAT MAKE OLD MEN CANNIBALISM LEGALIZED!!!11 MY SOUL IS DARK AND EVIL!!

    lol

  • Novaseeker

    Try not to forget that Roissy has been CH for years now because of the dust up between him an Lady Raine back in 09

    Indeed.

    I think it’s interesting that, among the main manosphere bloggers, Rollo is the one who has maintained more of a level stance vis-a-vis most of the rest of the main bloggers, until Roosh of course became more of a self-promoter than anything else. Roissy has been writing his socially edgy stuff for a long, long time — at least as early as 2007-2008, back in the heyday of the old Chateau — and the guys who were mostly pickup oriented were complaining about it in 2008 as well. His blog was never a strict pick-up blog, which is one of the reasons it became so huge. It wasn’t the same after the LR situation, in my view, for various reasons, but back in the heyday it pulled in a hugely diverse group of people, really, including all sorts of people who never spent time on the other main pickup blogs and sites at the time — and since then that diversity has mostly decamped to various other blogs and fora, kind of a part of the natural splintering of the manosphere that happens from time to time.

    I had no idea that there were so many Roissy “refugees” here, though — that’s interesting. I haven’t spent much time there since around 2010-11, really, focusing more on other splinters, but the interesting thing, to me at least, is that the edginess has always been there, it isn’t new. It’s kind of a core part of what he does as a blogger, and it’s helped to evangelize the red pill ideas to a really ridiculously large and diverse set of folks over the years.

    In any case, I appreciate that Rollo normally takes a very even and balanced approach, and doesn’t seek out things that distinguish him from others in order to take others down, generally (e.g., the differences between Rollo’s focus and views and Roissy’s), but I do agree with his criticisms of Roosh here. They seem on point to me, from what I have observed of his goings on over the last several months.

  • Sentient

    @Sun @Culum

    I know there’s guys that swear it’s a fun exercise, but it seems like a way to label yourself “provider” by virtue of obviously doing so for another woman already. Then again, it’s also obvious social proof (“Somebody married him so he must be worth something”) so I’m not really sure how it works out on balance.

    As a married guy, I can tell you wearing a ring is a net neutral. It really doesn’t have that much impact in either direction pro or con…. 50% of girls never even mention it, 25% mention it only because they like that either you pass a shit test about it “oh you like my jewelry” or they are excited by beating another woman (so preselection) and 25% put up walls that they would “never do that”…

    Although HABD has me thinking that that last 25% are just testing harder…! I think he is right!

  • bob bitchin

    @yareally: I re-read ‘Guy’. Nice catch.

    I like that this blog focuses on hypergamy, male reality, awareness and strategy. I agree with blax. I’m all for free speech and expression but ‘race realism’ is a topic for CH not TRM. In the same vein, no one comes here to debate the merits of bass lures🙂

    In the free exchange of ideas no one gets to control the overall dialogue. I wish the red pill/internet manospere was free of opportunism but I dont get to decide that. I just hope more guys tune in and change their lives. That’s probably the best i can hope for. I’ll leave thought control to the cultural fascist-sjw types. To not do so is, imho, a hypocriscy I’d prefer to leave to ‘them’ not ‘us’.
    Hopefully that makes some sense.

  • Anonymous Reader

    @whoever was in Austin running into single mothers: don’t. Just. don’t.

    A couple of years back I was in a contract enviro and a pretty cute under 25 kept ladeling IOI’s on me. Classic stuff, like sitting across a meeting table from me playing with her hair with one hand while drawing circles near my arm with the other. She didn’t escalate beyond a little kino, but it was there…and as I said, she was cute and under 25.

    I said, hmm, daddy issues? (I was working on self improvement at that time, and maybe had made more progress than I thought, too.)
    Eh, I avoid social game where I’m making money. Gets complicated.

    Well, just by listening to her talk on her phone, even though she stepped away from her work to do so, I learned that (a) she had a 5 year old kid (b) her parents were divorced (c) the father of the kid didn’t live with her but they had some kind of “arrangement” or other and thus (d) she was totally Ms. Short Time Horizon beyond the tasks that she could do for money.

    After that, I kept everything professional and cordial. When she asked for advice on some life stuff (automotive issues) I freely gave it. She was a competent person at work, and pleasant to talk to, I have no objection to helping out other people. BUT otherwise I stayed farrrrr away, because “cute” is temporary and someone else’s trainwreck troubles can become permanent.

    Dude in Austin: don’t. do. it.

    Stay away from single mothers, unless you are willing to put all your chips on the table and run “married to babymomma” game. Because there’s a very good chance, as someone said upthread, that she’s gonna have an “oopsie” pregnancy (hey, it might even be yours…) that will lead to a demand for marriage or at least some form of child support.

    Even if things don’t go that far, from what I can tell the vast majority of single mothers are either trainwrecks of drama, or they are that way by choice – they want to be in total control of their little “family”.

    Very limited upside, a whole lot of downside. Not just a bad investment, a bad bet.

  • Blaximus

    @ bob bitchin

    ” I like that this blog focuses on hypergamy, male reality, awareness and strategy. I agree with blax. I’m all for free speech and expression but ‘race realism’ is a topic for CH not TRM. In the same vein, no one comes here to debate the merits of bass lures🙂

    In the free exchange of ideas no one gets to control the overall dialogue. I wish the red pill/internet manospere was free of opportunism but I dont get to decide that. I just hope more guys tune in and change their lives. That’s probably the best i can hope for. I’ll leave thought control to the cultural fascist-sjw types. To not do so is, imho, a hypocriscy I’d prefer to leave to ‘them’ not ‘us’.
    Hopefully that makes some sense.”

    Roger that. Cosigned.

    Although I pipe up when certain subjects come up here in the comments, And I may tell someone to ” gtfoh “, it’s a metaphorical ” gtfoh “. Lol.

    But it’s true. I can’t come here to discuss how men are being silenced and minimized in the mainstream by the FI, and then turn around and wish that guys with whom I vehemently disagree could be silenced.

    Of course that makes sense.

  • kfg

    ” . . . it seems like a way to label yourself “provider” . . .”

    Being married labels you as “safe.”

    @10×10: “They don’t understand economics and they almost always end up as pro-white, pro-(moderate) socialist nationalists, and I dislike that.”

    And then there’s Vox Day, a libertarian with a degree in economics who may have improved upon the Austrian model and, rather interesting, a non-spiritual Christian.

    He’s pro ethnic cohesion, under which pro white is just a subcategory. He is not, as the left likes to say, a white supremacist, although fitting into the race realist camp would be a fair assessment.

    I disagree with him on a number of things, but I don’t get butthurt over it and I find him particularly worth reading, and although his commenters can get a bit out there, they’re generally more intelligent and better behaved than those at CH. I avoid certain articles and bite my tongue a lot, but I can handle it.

    @Guy: “I think healthy disagreement is necessary sometimes.”

    I think you’re talking to the wrong party about that.

    “Considering the pretense for the meetup was an innocent social gathering and not to protest or advocate anything, I see no reason for him to expect any major trouble.”

    I think you are being naive. The alternative would be that Roosh is an idiot.

  • Sun Wukong

    @YaReally

    Use the HTML “strong” tag for bold and “em” for italics. Remember to close your tags.

  • Sun Wukong

    @kfg

    I suspect Guy is paying attention to Roosh’s words and completely missing his actions. It ain’t just women you should do that with, gentlemen. Men have subcomms too, particularly when playing the game Roosh is playing.

  • Razorwire

    @Culum
    I’ve thought of many ways to shed the provider vibe but for me it always comes down acknowledging that most of the problem is about how I view myself, which is really a matter of authentic, intrinsic confidence. So I’ve tried to focus on that instead of adding another layer.

    In my experience the GF or wedding ring game is just adopting another layer of identity or buffer that demands attention (maintenance) that takes energy away from just digging deeper into my convictions and desires. Though I have never tried it so this is a bit of conjecture on my part.

    I also think there are practical issues with the wedding ring game that present as many curves as they do straightaways. Sure, there are women who find that attractive – be it preselection or their own version of ‘bang-only’ potential, but there are just as many who see that as a character flaw, as weakness.

    Some also see their part in that as a betrayal of the sisterhood. Of course character is somewhat irrelevant in the bang-only game but at the same time there are reputation and situational risks that can pop up down the line as a result. The world can get small in a hurry these days.

    I think the best route is to be the ‘catch’ who is just not ready to settle down. The man who believes in love and happily ever, but just hasn’t found the *right* woman yet and is in no real hurry: “I’m just looking to meet people and enjoy myself; I’ve stopped worrying about finding the perfect woman but I’m optimistic that it will all work out” etc.

    There are plenty of women who are fine with “nothing serious”, no need to go through the trouble of a fake status IMO. Just work on filtering for these women.

    Short of quitting your gig and going to work in the service industry, I’d say you probably have to adopt more of YaReally’s tack in terms of putting yourself in the right situations and venues where these older birds have been pushed out. I’m admittedly bad at this; I fucking hate crowds, noise, dancing, boozing, club drugs, and generally everything that gets a 25 y/o excited. So I hang out in the art scene and the small venue music scene and its ok but I should figure out how to tolerate that banal shit that the kids are into to improve my odds.

    Anyhow, there are also many women who are likely to see the ring or GF as a means to secure attention, validation, flirtation, etc. while letting the game run down to the goal line only to LMR due to the ring/GF. Its a built in ripcord for them. So in a way you are creating a situation that may make it easier up front but more difficult in the end. Most of the women who would bang a taken man would certainly bang a single man.

    The ring/GF approach is about making you more (sexually) attractive to a certain set of women, a set of women that you don’t really want anyhow. I’d rather do the work up front and leave less last minute complications.

    As you find your groove you may be surprised that there are a lot of these women who are divorced or were otherwise taken in their 20’s and are making up for missing out or are content to just get a proper rogering once in a while from an attractive man. Let them keep Tindering or OkCupiding for their future husbands. I’d say half the women I’d cut loose for their obvious plan B trolling have come back around for some no-strings recreation.

    Seems to me that foreclosing the provider role up-front is better accomplished through the confidence and indifference that comes from the abundance that you have as a man of high value. This means you set the frame, the rules of engagement, but this also means that you have to actively enforce these things.

    So I think what we are also looking at is not just how women in this cohort filter for that ‘provider’ status but also how this plays out in terms of how they price/value their sex. In this regard it is not limited to these older women. Any woman, when she decides she is “ready” – and many women in their 20’s still do this, will attempt to revalue (price) her sex via the commitment ledger. So it comes back to the ideas of commitment and monogamy and how to keep yourself squarely on the tingles ledger.

    Sure I can avoid these 30+ women altogether but I try not to eliminate entire swaths of the market if I can help it. Avoiding the married, the fatties, the addicts, and the crazies is plenty of culling. The older women tend to come about via social circles and some of my hobbies so while I’m not cultivating it, there is often some fruit around. I also do some work that puts me around young women, so I have constant reminders of my biological preferences.

    I’m bad at guessing age and look much younger than I am. Good combo I suppose. All said, it often comes down to the boner test and the personality tolerance test. Rarely does a woman pass both – old or young. I have buddies who can tolerate the worst in young women who are hot enough. I’m not of that same mindset.

    I’m not sold that the 25 y/o’s don’t have their own issues. Maybe not the ‘baggage” like divorced or a failed career, but these kids were also getting analized in college and have grown up on porn, social media, and scrip drugs they pinched from their parents. Don’t tell me that shit is baggage free lol.

    Nothing beats a younger version, no doubt, but life is full of trade-offs. You have to decide for yourself. The trick is to not get caught up in those buffers and contextual traps that conflate degree of difficulty with degree of desire. No blue pill lie is as bad as those we tell ourselves. This has been one of the biggest hurdles for me personally.

    As for old guys, I’m all for Soylent Green. Bring it on. Maybe I’ll go quietly, maybe not. Based on what I see coming up behind me, I like my chances if I go all Logan’s Run.

  • Sun Wukong

    @Rollo

    …but hey, what do I know, I’m just a MGTOW who’s trying to keep you all down, didn’t you know?

    Write a bang guide if you want real cred, bro. Because I know you’re all about proving who you are to some random internet jackass.

  • Blaximus

    @ Rollo

    ” February 9th, 2016 at 3:16 pm

    …but hey, what do I know, I’m just a MGTOW who’s trying to keep you all down, didn’t you know?

    https://xsplat.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/why-rollos-therationalmale-com-is-an-mgtow-site-that-is-trying-to-keep-you-down/

    LMFAO.

    I tried to read this post but It appears someone is really upset because they can’t follow written thought unless it is at 5th grade reading level.

    MGTOW??? LMAO..again.

    ” We all get older, and sooner or later that means we all decline in physical attractiveness. But men can still increase their romantic and sexual options into their forties, fifties, and sixties. Maybe even their seventies. Maybe more. And it pains me to have to say that I mean sexual options that include the women genuinely lusting. I blame Rollo that that even needs to be said at all. Fucking cartoonish meme of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks!”

    Takes big, stupid balls to say the above, when he can’t provide a link to articles where his points are on display.

    He seems to have a…. you know what? Fuck this guy. Waste of time debating. It’s like talking to a 3 year old that continuously calls you a ” poopy head “.

  • kfg

    “If a blog is not ABOUT all the ways a man can self improve, then it is a blog ABOUT stagnation, resignation, and fail.”

    [keanureeves]Whoa![/keanureeves]

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