Don’t Hate the Beta

beta_hate

A common refrain I hear from even some well meaning Red Pill aware men is that there is some degree of disdain for the “Beta” man in the sphere. There’s not so much a rejection of apparent Red Pill truths as there is a schoolyard mentality when it comes to characterizing a guy as Alpha or Beta. This is where where a lot of guys turn themselves off to the Red Pill in a community sense.

In a way I suppose it becomes reminiscent of guys having been bullied in their formative years by the guys they now have a mental image of being archetypically “Alpha”. So it follows that concepts like AMOGing or running a ‘Boyfriend Destroyer’ script is distasteful; a lot of men, that is to say the 80%+ Beta men, have likely experienced this disqualification in direct or indirect ways in their youth. Sometimes that may simply be a girl he had his ONEitis sights set on opting for a more Alpha guy after telling him she wasn’t ready for a relationship, or it may be a more direct experience of having sand metaphorically kicked in his face.

Thus it becomes a matter of course to entirely dismiss the nuts & bolts understanding of how abstracts like Alpha and Beta are used in the sphere. The default understanding goes something like this, “Those Red Pillers just hate on Betas to build themselves up” or some other version of this where the Red Pill becomes a Machiavellian free for all at the expense of other, ‘lesser’, men.

It’s either this or the abstractions of Alpha and Beta are reduced to absurd binary interpretations; Alphas become ridiculous ‘douchebag’ parodies and Betas become pathetic, simpering doormats for the world to tread upon. In either case the purpose of reducing these abstracts as such is an effort in dismissing the uncomfortable, as well as evidently observable qualities and truths of the intersexual environment that plays out around us.

For the record I think it’s important for Red Pill men to remain as objective and disinvested from making qualitative assumptions about what constitutes the Alpha and Beta abstractions. I don’t hate, pity or resent Beta men. Neither do I embrace the idea that Alpha archetypes as necessarily positive or negative. For the moment however, I’m going to focus on Beta men.

The Presumption of Control

As I mentioned above, one of the primary dismissals men have when they encounter Red Pill thought is to blow it off because “it’s all just a bunch of hating on Betas.” And that presumption comes only if a guy is willing to consider the abstracts of Alpha and Beta in the first place – most simply don’t want to recognize specific ‘statuses’ or defining characteristics of men or women, and just fall back on the “all is relative, all is subjective” mindset they’ve been conditioned to. People are People, there is no human “nature” so there is no male or female “nature”.

But for the guy who at least accepts the idea of human natures, I can certainly understand the reservations of men whose identities were conditioned to a more Beta role. There’s not much positive to characterize a Beta mindset with beyond the utility that conditioning serves to society and women’s sexual strategy. Betas do in fact get laid; the terms on which, and how their sexuality fits their utilitarian role in women’s Hypergamous plan is the real question.

I was recently asked if I thought Beta men employing Beta Game was a successful strategy in the larger scheme of things. If success means that Beta Game will get him laid, I’m incredulous about it. The presumption is that the Beta man employing that ‘game’ is in some way directing and controlling the outcome of his ‘success’. I’d argue that what he believes is ‘game’ is simply his utility to a woman coming into an optimal window for her necessity of him. So is his ‘strategy’ really successful, or is he simply the best ‘Plan B‘ a woman has available to her while her own SMV decays to the point where he’s her best option?

Is that Beta really in control? Or is he simply situationally useful?

I think a lot of what guys new to the manosphere perceive as Beta hate is simply the presumption of control they believe they should be able to exercise with women. After having been told for the the better part of their lives that the more accommodating and identifying with women they are will lead to them being accepted by women it’s a presumption that this is some means of socially acceptable control for them.

It’s very galling to have men place fault on a guy for things he knows are out of his control. I fully understand the angst and frustration that leads to things like Beta Uprising and men frustrated with intersexual dynamics taking it out on the whole of society before they swallow a bullet themselves.

It essentially amounts to victim blaming; Betas are hapless and hopeless mules brainwashed and indentured to serve not just the Feminine Imperative (which would be galling enough), but also to have the pains and strivings that society demands of them be rewarded with women’s genuine intimate interests focusing on Alpha men.

That sucks.

PUAs telling a guy it’s on him as to why women are boring to him, or uninterested in him sexually, only reinforces that angst. It’s like a pastor telling you that if you’d only prayed harder or more earnestly God would have cured your Mom of cancer. So they hate the Alpha, they hate the PUA, they hate the hotchickswithdouchebags guy, but they also hate women and the social/biological mechanics of the position they’re placed in. It presumes a control that he believes he’s never had, nor ever will.

So there comes a point where that Beta wants, sometimes adamantly insists, for his own burden of performance to be replaced, or at least handicapped, by a woman meeting him half way. This want is rooted in his Blue Pill presumption that people are people and in the equalist notion that women’s hindbrains can (willingly) be overridden when it comes to arousal, attraction and intersexual dynamics. Again, if there is no human nature it should stand to reason that a woman could potentially choose that Beta for all the reasons he’s been conditioned to believe she should choose him for. If there is a female nature, and that nature follows (with some degree of consistency) Red Pill aware truths, then his frustrations are founded on his own lack.

But these guys aren’t Blue Pill oblivious men, they are Red Pill aware. They see the truth and that leads to their awakening to the cruel reality that they’re in. So when these guys are put into that place they have a few choices: Snap and take out themselves and as many others as they can, go isolationist MGTOW and retreat to minimal societal investment, go MRA and impotently try to enact legislation that they think will even the social playing filed from the top down, or they can take a realistic look at themselves and reinvent themselves to better play the Game.

The Burden of Fault

Whether it’s fair or not, by virtue of being a man, you’re going to have to accept your burden of performance. That burden includes your liability of accepting fault even for things that aren’t your fault per se. It’s not your fault that you were born and raised into a feminine-primary social order that conditioned you to be an accommodating utility for it – but irrespective of that, you will be held liable for not complying with it or resisting it. You are a man, you will always be accountable.

Is that fucked up? Yes. So with that in mind it is up to you as a Red Pill aware Man to decide for yourself what is worth your investment. Yes my friend, women can be amazing, interesting vivacious and fun, but they can also be fucked up and stupid and absolutely not worth your time, money and effort. It isn’t your fault they are the way they are, but it is your fault for investing yourself in something you’re not enjoying or profiting by.

With all of the railing against women not being worthwhile one would think that would prompt these men to being indifferent to women – but they aren’t. Even the most ardent MGTOW and hapless Beta Red Pill denier still wants women; he simply wants her in his context and his frame on his terms – and to genuinely want to be a part of all that. There’s nothing wrong with this desire, this is precisely what I advise with regards to Frame control, but the disconnect comes in how men go about establishing a Frame women want to be a part of.

Get Out There

I may debate with other men’s takes on how the importance of looks plays in to a man’s overall Game and appeal, but one thing I won’t argue with is the importance of men putting themselves out there and into situations that will most certainly take them out of their comfort zones.

For almost 20 years I have made a living doing exactly this. I have worked in gaming, liquor and brand development ventures that have put me into venues that range from Goth/Alternative/Hipster sets to LGBT events, to mixing with men and women who have the type of wealth that most people don’t even know exists. My career, family and personal life has been my Red Pill classroom and laboratory for all this, and in all of these contexts I have found a way to enjoy myself and/or learn from these interactions.

One reason I will never look to writing Red Pill books as a career option is because it would remove me from the very source of my observations. Living it is the only way keep learning from it. On my own time, I would very likely prefer to lock myself in my studio and paint or sculpt, or to create something new to work into a brand, often to the exclusion of my wife and family and the many friends I have. I’m a very social guy, but I would probably not feel compelled to head off to a night club or any of the events I involve myself in professionally on a weekly basis.

When I’m doing a promo, I know I’m not going to hook up, so I find enjoyment in watching and learning from what I see going on around me. I can’t drink when I’m on a promo or doing a trade show, so even that can’t be a source enjoyment. So why fucking do it right? I make money at it, and it beats living in a cubicle, but I’d much rather be creating new things, new brands, new ideas than interacting with half-buzzed hipsters who think they’re too cool to be there or obnoxious 40 something divorcés ‘sampling’ vodka and hoping to drink their spinsterhood away.

I enjoy what I do and it helps me help other guys. I put myself out in the wild because it’s part of my job(s), but I honestly enjoy interacting with even the dullards and the drunks. It’s what I invest myself in. That may sound like torture to you, but it’s really contextual. I have friends I’ve made at underground Goth events who would blanch at the thought of what I do at a golf tournament. I’m not saying you need to be a social chameleon, but understand that your social education will always be domain dependent if you stay in the settings that make you the most comfortable.

Don’t Hate the Beta

As I mentioned earlier, I don’t hate Beta men. For a long time in my Blue Pill past I was one of them, and I can fully understand the want to mischaracterize an Alpha mindset in order to preserve a sense of self-worth. Beta men don’t warrant pity or disgust, but rather they need a tough harsh awakening to the reality of the situation they find themselves in.

I don’t think Beta men are hopeless, but they will remain in a state of hopelessness so long as they subscribe to a want of making things easier for their condition rather than improving themselves to better play the Game. That’s hard to hear for most Beta men and I understand the protective need for denial in this, but I know of very few Red Pill men who really despise Beta or Blue Pill men. They despise his indentured state, they despise his willful obliviousness to his conditioned uses. They despise the lengths to which Blue Pill men will go in their hope to be appreciated by the system that made them what they are.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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ETA
ETA
5 years ago

@Rollo

I read your post “Looks count” and your analysis on the saying “Looks aren’t as important for women”.
What came to mind was the new trend “Dad bod”… do you think this trend is a collective reaction from women to attract average guys into settling with them after the fact that many men are going MGTOW or are just seeking the “no label” type relationships?

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago
Reply to  ETA

@Caveclown
“Which makes me realize I REALLY squandered my youth, and could have done much better with women…dammit.”

Where all growing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FgrVh865bX8

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kFsoiAa-ulY

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TxouT-qgqwU

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

What this post mostly reveals is the inadequacy of the alpha-beta dyad in describing human intersexual dynamics. Keep in mind that in the sciences, human sexual/social behavior is not described this way. The simplest way to see this is that women select alphas for short term mating and betas for longer term provisioning, but in reality, they also shift their strategies around and blend them at times. Pursuing “alphaness” is merely seeking to qualify for a woman’s short term mating selection. That’s all. Women select such men based on their attractiveness, which is in part signaled by social dominance but… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Glenn,

Well said.

I change my terminology for this blog, but I am a big subscriber to Vox Day’s version of alpha-omega and what not. I think it puts some nuance in it that I can more readily comprehend versus the binary thinking of alpha/beta that tends to permeate the comment section here at TRM.

(although I believe Rollo is not binary in that way)

Using Vox’s index, I am an easy delta that is trying like hell to be a beta.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Jeff He lived it and felt no need to tell of hos exploits. He was and is the true warrior. Kind of a selfish dickhead to not share his wonderful experiences with other men. I’m autistic. I get pleasure talking about my experiences. It’s called “stimming”. I don’t do it to get approval–IDGAF about other men’s approval or disapproval unless I know and value them. I’m writing a book about social dancing. One aim is to generate income. Another aim is to help shy men meet women. Part of that book is sharing my experiences to gain trust so… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Ya – Dude, your take on how selection is changing for hot women, 25yo or younger is spot on. I think you are absolutely correct that they are being changed by the amount of attention social media gives them, but I also think the pop culture has convinced them of their invincibility too. I think it’s fair to say that at this point in our society in the West, that the most powerful character in our social scene is a nubile young woman. She is the center of so much attention and fawning and is also told that she is… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Keyser

I’m a natural like you, I always get HB4s and 5s, never 9s or 10s, why is that?

Maybe you’re not picky. Maybe you’re too lazy to approach without an IOI. Write some Field Reports about approaching 9s and 10s.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ LM

Lol, you thought that was being hard on me?

“Brutal” lmao

No whips and leather for you. Perv.

Post at my blog and I’ll hit you up with an email.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ chronicalibash

I would appreciate an explanation of [Broken Taillight Game and Broken Headlight Game]

I just posted about Taillight on my blog. https://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2015/11/17/broken-taillight-game/

Let me know how it works for you and what you learned by applying it. Oh. And have fun!

scribblerg
scribblerg
5 years ago

@Keyser – I’m with you on enjoying the sluttery of today’s world, and also being grateful for Betas. They make it easier for a guy like me to get laid. That’s Red Pill – seeing how we can use our circumstances to help us get what we want. That’s being one’s own point of mental origin. @All – Rollo repubbed a comment up the thread here which anyone here who doesn’t understand why they aren’t “alpha” needs to get. When he started seeing women through the lens of his own enjoyment, versus trying to win women over or trying to… Read more »

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

CC: “I change my terminology for this blog, but I am a big subscriber to Vox Day’s version of alpha-omega and what not. I think it puts some nuance in it that I can more readily comprehend versus the binary thinking of alpha/beta that tends to permeate the comment section here at TRM.” The alpha/beta dichotomy seems to be a point of extreme inconsistency and often contention just about everywhere in the sphere, from what I’ve noticed. I really have only my own experiences to go by, and my observations don’t really correlate with a good portion of the “alpha/beta”… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago
CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

asdgamer,

taillight game seems creepy as fuck.

Liz,

Did he get to ride in the F16? A real alpha would of gotten the ride. Sounds like you married a beta. lol

anonymous reader,

lol on the florida guy. I’ve heard that domestic violence towards men is a bigger deal than anyone realizes, which is sickening for all sorts of reasons. The biggest one being why a man would tolerate it.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“Did he get to ride in the F16? A real alpha would of gotten the ride. Sounds like you married a beta. lol”

Nope. Alas, no F16 ride. 😛

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

CaveClown, IMO a thirsty beta man would be a prime target for emotionally / physically abusive women to torture. The man in Florida clearly was too thirsty for his own good. He should follow through with being rid of that woman.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Well,

I’m 100% confident that if a woman ever tried to hit me or whatever, I would be going to jail that day.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Liz, Darling,
When women are given the choice to pick between two guys, which one you’d want to fuck, and which one you’d want to marry? This is the AF / BB ,(you knnnnow that).
Menstrual cycle? Ovulation?
2 options?

lh
lh
5 years ago

“The man in Florida clearly was too thirsty for his own good.” No no! He just didn’t understand women, shit-tests and all that. She was just giving a little resistance so she could get wet from him dealing with it and he must have failed obviously. The following escalation is quite typical for repeated failing of shit-tests and probably a typical driver of domestic violence against men. Once you understand all that you can even feel pity for such women trying again and again to feel some strength in the man and it just doesn’t show up because he “doesn’t… Read more »

lh
lh
5 years ago

“I’m 100% confident that if a woman ever tried to hit me or whatever, I would be going to jail that day.”

I’m not that confident. If you don’t let them pressure you until you explode but decisively hit back to stop it, they don’t call the police but want to fuck you.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“When women are given the choice to pick between two guys, which one you’d want to fuck, and which one you’d want to marry? This is the AF / BB ,(you knnnnow that).
Menstrual cycle? Ovulation?
2 options?”

I see what you’re saying, Keyser. I just don’t believe it’s such a polarized dichotomy. Folks often have aspects of each. I would say that’s the case more often than not.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Liz, In all seriousness, more masculine men taking the time to mentor a shy guy like who you described can make all the difference in the world them. Even if it is just a few minutes. An alpha man makes a big impression on women, but also a big impression on lesser men. Life altering in some instances. I had the honor of working with a really alpha guy when I was a much younger man. This guy was 40-45 and eventually married an HB9 that was about 24 years old. (she has since hit the wall doing about 90mph,… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“I’m 100% confident that if a woman ever tried to hit me or whatever, I would be going to jail that day.”
I’m not that confident. If you don’t let them pressure you until you explode but decisively hit back to stop it, they don’t call the police but want to fuck you.”

Haha!

Much better frame, I like it.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“This guy changed my life. Looking back, this was the first real natural alpha I had ever been around…ever. I lost 90lbs in a year because of this guy. I started a career that is paying huge dividends now because of this guy. I did my first ever cold approaches because of this guy.” That’s awesome, CC. 🙂 Mike is very good at mentoring (I think). That’s why he spoke to the boy for a couple of hours. He would never shrug someone like that off. We have sons also. Our oldest is the age of that young man I… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago
Reply to  Liz

@Anonymous Reader
“IMO a thirsty beta man would be a prime target for emotionally / physically abusive women to torture.”

Damn that’s sad.

@Caveclown
To me that was Rollo and a buddy who got me to Rollos blog.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Theaassgamer
“Maybe you’re not picky. Maybe you’re too lazy to approach without an IOI. Write some Field Reports about approaching 9s and 10s.”

Oh no, I’m picky, I always approach bar tenders and Hb6 and 5s. At the bars where I go to, there are no 9s or 10s, otherwise , they will give me lots of IOIs.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Rugby,

Yeah, rollo is on that list for me too.

LM
LM
5 years ago

“No whips and leather for you.”

Well you’re no fun then.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Liz, Darling, Darling, “I see what you’re saying, Keyser. I just don’t believe it’s such a polarized dichotomy. Folks often have aspects of each. I would say that’s the case more often than not.” Here is some polarized dichotomy : “When looking for a life partner((BETA)), my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys((alpha)), the cool boys((alpha)), the commitment-phobic boys((alpha)), the crazy boys((alpha)). But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys((alpha)) sexy do not make them good husbands((BETA)). When it comes time to settle down, find someone who((is Beta)) wants an equal… Read more »

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

Well, keyser, the person you’re quoting obviously has a whole lot more experience in dating than I have.
So maybe after all those many, many cocks, she views men less as individuals and more as the first and second letters of the greek alphabet.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

speaking of whips and chains my wife came home with a crop

Fun stuff

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Liz

The alpha/beta dichotomy seems to be a point of extreme inconsistency and often contention just about everywhere in the sphere, from what I’ve noticed.

The vagueness attack is very common when someone doesn’t like a narrative. Hence the inconsistency.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Liz, Darling,
“So maybe after all those many, many cocks, she views men less as individuals and more as the first and second letters of the greek alphabet.”

Darling, you are forgetting you are a woman too.
When Sandy says :”These men exist((80%)) and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”
Women would respond to Sandy by saying :
Wise up bone head, we KNOW these men exist, but, there is no “tingles”.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“The vagueness attack is very common when someone doesn’t like a narrative. Hence the inconsistency.” Whose narrative, though? It seems to change depending. Some posters agree with you, others have different versions of alpha, and so forth. It’s this way throughout the sphere. I think Rollo’s is “alpha is a state of mind”. Others might argue alphas can’t be monogamous, alphas don’t do LTRs, alphas can’t be Christians, and so forth. I won’t argue…I have no monopoly on the word ‘alpha’ (and, as keyser notes, I am a chick) I just can’t help noticing how diverse this definition is, and… Read more »

Fred Flange, substitute beachball
Fred Flange, substitute beachball
5 years ago

I am intrigued – though frankly not happy – to see what I’ve been reporting at the high school dating level now be confirmed by lh, Liz, Cave, and, in off-campus bar culture, by YaReally. and being taught un UMC high schools. Dept. of Redundancy Dept.: “The real turning point is happening now, but not in the whining of older lonely divorced boomers mad at the fact they didn’t Die Before They Get Old. Instead, look at the current generation of high schoolers. They no longer date, in the sense of boys asking out girls. Approaching is too difficult, teens… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“…And, OVER TIME, nothing is sexier…” Meaning after you are post wall and the tingle generators don’t want you anymore, and you’ve suddenly realized that you don’t want the shame of being alone, you can marry a beta and that will assuage the feelings of shame you have that maybe a man didn’t want to commit to you so meanwhile you do your best to assure yourself and everyone else that this guy was your first choice by arguing and rationalizing that his reliability is sexy. You can always substitute the tingles with dildos, social media validation, and the occasional… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Cave

taillight game seems creepy as fuck.

Some men and women have different perceptions.

Think of the woman, not as a beautiful, high-value scary woman, but as a little girl playmate who wants to play your game. She sees you as scary if you’re serious, so you have to prove to her that you’re fun.

Did you see what I did with LM? Did you think that that was creepy? She ate it up. Liz likes the same sort of banter. That’s how girls are.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Asd,

I’m not a stranger to game. Rookie for sure, but not clueless. I get the whole being fun when appropriate…my personal motto is “always be teasing”

I actually lean on the goofball side, which I’ve had to tune back a bit.

You don’t have to defend your game to me, if it works for ya great.

Just seemed less bold, and more weird than anything. But whatever works bro.

LM
LM
5 years ago

No asdgamer, I said you are NO fun. Get it right already.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Liz Well, keyser, the person you’re quoting obviously has a whole lot more experience in dating than I have. Cave Clown Meaning after you are post wall and the tingle generators don’t want you anymore, and you’ve suddenly realized that you don’t want the shame of being alone, you can marry a beta and that will assuage the feelings of shame you have that maybe a man didn’t want to commit to you so meanwhile you do your best to assure yourself and everyone else that this guy was your first choice by arguing and rationalizing that his reliability is… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Oh and asd,

I have virtually no AA for HB7 or less. I just imagine them with cum on their face, and it takes any delusions of their having higher value right out of my head.

Seriously.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Anon,

Oh yeah, open hypergamy, I get it. My comment was sarcastic.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Rollo, ” let an idiot explain himself without interrupting him and then profiting by it.”

Do you read this, Theaassgamer?
Ps,
After finishing your book, and after visiting your blog comments thread, it’s more than enough to publish 4 copies .

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

‘re, open cuckolding

Seems like blackdragon and the like are on the leading edge of accounting for that lack of monogamy in women, or redefining monogamy as the salon article implies.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Liz

Rollo provides the main narrative for the manosphere. Others try to vary Rollo’s definition of alpha for their own purposes. PUAs will demean LTRs and vary Rollo’s def to suit them. Atheists will do the same to demean Christians, etc.

Even me. For me, an alpha is any man who internalizes the maxim, “Pussy is just pussy.” It’s a specific state of mind with a commitment to the Patriarchical society, to which Rollo doesn’t commit, afaik.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

In other words, blackdragon is working to ensure he is on the AF side of that equation.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ Cave

I have virtually no AA for HB7 or less

Why do you have AA for HB8+? Solve this to improve yourself.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ keyser

Rollo, ” let an idiot explain himself without interrupting him and then profiting by it.”

Do you read this, Theaassgamer?
Ps,
After finishing your book, and after visiting your blog comments thread, it’s more than enough to publish 4 copies .

Wanna put your cookies on the lower shelf for me?

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago
Reply to  theasdgamer

@Rollo Tommassi “Most guys like you describe rarely develop the personal insight to realize why they are successful with women or really anything else. It’s due to simple luck, Alpha overbearingness or physical appeal. This opens them up to being exploited (thumbscrews) by women and men with the insight and tact to do so.” I enjoy observing this. “That Beta in Waiting who believes his ship’s come in at 30 because the 28-29 year old woman in the midst of her Epiphany Phase suddenly “sees what a great guy he always was” honestly believe that their SMV is their MMV.… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Asd,

Next time I see an honest to God HB8+ in my part of the country, I’ll go say hi.

Don’t hold your breath.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ LM

I want a girl I can relate to…a girl who will fly me to the moon and play among the stars…a girl with eyes as green as the sea and a heart as big as all outdoors…a girl just like Mama.

comment image

I’m not sure you’re my type. More like the type of girl Mama warned me about.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“That Beta in Waiting who believes his ship’s come in at 30 because the 28-29 year old woman in the midst of her Epiphany Phase suddenly “sees what a great guy he always was”

I’ve got this going on at least to some extent in my marriage.

I don’t pretend to know all the dynamics in this marriage, because BPD thing.

Ah well…I’m just enjoying what she has to give until I decide what my future looks like.

Will it include her?

Maybe, if she’s lucky.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“a girl just like Mama.”

I’m looking for the type of girl who reminds me of my mother. But how many girls do you know with a viper tattooed on their tushie? And how many girls do you know that can play the harmonica with their pussies? – Blood Hound Gang; ‘Three Point One Four’

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

The only issue I see with redefning monogamy is those of us that desire it as it was will have VERY few like minded people to pair off with. If your an introverted monogamous man, you’re shit out of luck. Lol

And I’m not even talking “til death do us part” here. I’m saying soon it will NOT be the norm to be sexually monogamous. If you want to be AND want your partner to be monogamous… Well good luck finding any woman that looks half decent to agree to that pre-wall.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“And I’m not even talking “til death do us part” here. I’m saying soon it will NOT be the norm to be sexually monogamous. If you want to be AND want your partner to be monogamous… Well good luck finding any woman that looks half decent to agree to that pre-wall.”

I thought better looking women had fewer sex partners.

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

@CaveClown “An alpha man makes a big impression on women, but also a big impression on lesser men. Life altering in some instances.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgsyR9kyUy0 @Liz “I just can’t help noticing how diverse this definition is, and how contentious it often is.” And yet, having different opinions doesn’t prevent us from still discussing things, viewing things from eachother’s perspectives, and even being alright with reaching different conclusions based on our various life experiences. Weird, hey? It’d be a lot easier if someone would just tell us what to think. @Fred Flange Thanks for the snippet. Again it confirms the stuff I’m… Read more »

LM
LM
5 years ago

@asd
“You’re likely the girl mama warned me about.”

That’s very likely true.

Gotta go anyway. Rollo has started deleting my comments and I’m pretty sure is getting ready to ban me.

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

Liz – “I thought better looking women had fewer sex partners.”

Notice I said decent looking. The extremely hot among humanity don’t have to play by the rules as the 80%, and in this climate neither do average young women.

So my point was: if like me a young man wants monogamy with an average woman, he may not find many takers. They may want to LTR him up, but if the expectation of sexual exclusivity is included in his offer, he’s gonna find that a difficult sell if she’s grown up with no such concept.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

So women no longer need monogamy, but as a whole, most men DO want monogamy.

Which is why most men will check out, because of not being comfortable with “their woman” banging other guys.

Like being in an orgy, and not being the biggest dick in the room…talk about burden of performance holy fuck.

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

CaveClown – I will fully admit “being comfortable” with my woman largely hinges on my belief in sexual exclusivity. Of course I’m fully aware I can’t control that, but I’m far more comfortable knowing my wife grew up with a concept of cheating. If sex is just sex, cheating cant exist.

If I can’t have some sense of ownership with my wife, what’s the point of marriage at all?

dmstcviolets
dmstcviolets
5 years ago

@Rollo Tomassi Hey Rollo, I’m relatively new to the Manosphere here. Read both of your books in a matter of days last week. And man, talk about a world I wasn’t prepared to step into. I’m 23 and currently deployed overseas. Just so happened to stumble upon The Rational Male while searching for titles related to the 48 Laws of Power. My life is forever altered because of this material. But the reason I leave my comment here is to ask: Is there anyway you can make a post regarding a plethora of Blue Pill arguments in a collective post?… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

@teddj4g “So my point was: if like me a young man wants monogamy with an average woman, he may not find many takers. They may want to LTR him up, but if the expectation of sexual exclusivity is included in his offer, he’s gonna find that a difficult sell if she’s grown up with no such concept.” This is what’s happening out there. Even if I WANTED a monoLTR with a <25yo girl it would be difficult to find a taker because they have been FULLY raised in the eat pray love FI mindset. A lot of them seem to… Read more »

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

Of course, I started this relationship on the basis of ownership, and my wife understands it. But if the trend continues monogamy will become an extremely fringe practice, for better or worse.

So basically I agree with you Cave, everyday marriage becomes less appealing for the average man. And frankly I don’t see that as a positive for a stable society. Maybe I’m just old and grumpy. (But its actually that I’m an INTJ thatndoesnt like people lol)

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

Lol YaReally just summed that up better.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“So basically I agree with you Cave, everyday marriage becomes less appealing for the average man. ” Yeah, no. Any man that gets married in 2015 is an idiot. If i ever get divorced, I will never remarry…ever. I’m kinda torn with all of this otherwise. With my wife, yeah i don’t want her fucking other dudes. But I can honestly say that I never gave a flying fuck with any other chick I’ve been with, who she was banging besides me, how many in the past, just didn’t care. Jealousy? Nah. I at least one of them I actually… Read more »

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

CaveClown – if there was no legal sword over my head, I’d be less concerned. Personally I’m not too worried because I’m in a position to walk away with very little negative impact to me or my kids. Helps a great deal with my ZFG attitude, but most married men are NOT in a position to eject easily. Plus I was an only child, and never learned to play nice with others and share my toys. That’s exactly how the exclusivity “discussion” went down too lol. I followed with “if you want to be mine, you’re mine alone”. I also… Read more »

Urban Samurai
Urban Samurai
5 years ago

Excellent observation and exploration. Those who hate betas are psychologically trying to disassociate from their inner beta which they assumed the alpha adopted behavior would eliminate. It’s essentially a projection of self hatred. However, there is also a natural tendency to distance ourselves from that which we perceive as weak or sick in both men and women. That said, nature can only tolerate a limited number of alpha, or society would collapse. We are wired to both compete and cooperate. We favor one tendency over the other. Pure alphas don’t play well with others and are likely to have short… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“Thus the huge push toward normalizing cuckoldry and the AF/BB system the last few years. We’re smart enough and old enough to not fall for that, but is some 12yo boy who’s picking up how the world works through TV because he has no dad (esp not an alpha one) to teach him and his single mom uses it to babysit him while she goes out and fucks guys like me?” Smart enough to try and fall on the AF side of the equation anyway. Meanwhile, the next generation is just flat being raised to serve women on the BB… Read more »

LM
LM
5 years ago

@teddj4g

“also grabbed her ass after I said “I do” and whispered in her ear “mine” when we did the first kiss thing.”

That gave me tingles.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“And frankly I don’t see that as a positive for a stable society. Maybe I’m just old and grumpy. (But its actually that I’m an INTJ thatndoesnt like people lol)”

I don’t see that as a positive either. If true, that’s essentially ghetto values permeating society. Might make for an interesting tabloid, but to see how it goes writ large in actual practice, the evidence is in the result.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“That gave me tingles.”

You move fast!

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ YaReally

I’ve observed a phenomenon and wondered if you had seen it, too. Two older girls, good friends, one of them (‘A’) throws the other (‘B’) at you and B isn’t all that excited about you, but A is. Maybe A thinks that B needs to be in a relationship and thinks that you are hot and a good match for B.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

LM is just looking for validation, lol. And doing some attention-whoring.

cheupez
5 years ago

@CaveClown, “Meaning after you are post wall and the tingle generators don’t want you anymore, and you’ve suddenly realized that you don’t want the shame of being alone, you can marry a beta and that will assuage the feelings of shame you have that maybe a man didn’t want to commit to you so meanwhile you do your best to assure yourself and everyone else that this guy was your first choice by arguing and rationalizing that his reliability is sexy.” Dude. That is worth the title; quote of the month. But this AF/BB thing has a strange sting to… Read more »

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

LM/Liz – women tend to enjoy being “owned” by a man they perceives as high value. So, I consider it a sign I’m doing well that she still enjoys the terms of the purchase. 😉

Also, it also means a man should expect some ownership, and next any woman that protests. Maybe that’s just me though.

Fred Flange, head explode time
Fred Flange, head explode time
5 years ago

So even in the clubs, as YaReally tells us, change is afoot in what was the hookup scene. No one approaches anyone. People stay in groups, and if they interact at all, do so as groups. Maybe the way over this speedbump is to work a new variant on game to break up the group, then create a chance to isolate and escalate. Now the scary part: he’s reporting on the girls who actually GO to the club or bar. The New York Mag piece suggests there’s a great many more who don’t. Maybe they do group clones and Snapchat… Read more »

lh
lh
5 years ago

The polyamorous future may not be such a bad thing, at least for the good men. It’s of course an SMV powerplay at work: young women, especially those seeking validation, will have several orbiter/boyfriends and will make “polyamory” socially acceptable, like it is already happening. But men’s SMV will rise later on and those able to capitalize on it will find women for which pLTR seems like a normal thing, only they didn’t have it this way before. Everything else is feelz: women don’t feel comfortable having a harem for long, men do. And women feel comfortable being part of… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“Since I read about the AF/BB a few months ago, I wake up in the morning I look at the woman lying in my bed and the thoughts in my mind are rolling on like: This girl was wet to her butt last night because I was just a bloody piece of meat. But if I keep this up and she starts seeing me more often, then she will automatically start going for the coin. ” I had a really hard time with it too. I’m married, and my wife’s attitude has only turned around after adding a whole lot… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@yareally Your observations gel with what I’ve been seeing even in my semi-hermit mode. I don’t know if you read my FR on when I worked in the deli, but there was this one girl I worked with who responded overwhelmingly to the things I did. I did laser eyes from 20 feet away and she instantly started acting like a little girl, I teased her a bit about her doing a bad job cleaning, and I smiled ridicuously when she told me to “stop smiling!”, etc. Very basic stuff. But it had such an effect on her I was… Read more »

redlight
redlight
5 years ago

@yareally and others This is what’s happening out there. Even if I WANTED a monoLTR with a <25yo girl it would be difficult to find a taker because they have been FULLY raised in the eat pray love FI mindset. A lot of them seem to view having a boyfriend as an INCONVENIENCE rather than a GOAL…but at the same time, that could be because they're surrounded by feminized beta chodes that they can't envision a monoLTR with, VS if like the guy from Twilight wanted a monoLTR with them they might be down for it. Millennials don’t care about… Read more »

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@rollo

I saw your site was flagged as “hate” on an antivirus program, lol

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“Both those times all it did was just tease her a bit about really minor things, but she remembered them for months afterward.”

You’re young, you have access to the best PUA’s in the world, the best men’s improvement advice in the world, the red pill, and the highest health and energy levels you will ever have.

TAKE MASSIVE ACTION.

Don’t measure things in months, make opportunities, make mistakes, and create action!

hank holiday
hank holiday
5 years ago

@caveclown

this was a girl i worked with, so i wasn’t going to shit where i ate lol

i get what you are saying though

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

“this was a girl i worked with, so i wasn’t going to shit where i ate lol”

I once told a chick I worked with to quit so that we could go out. She was going to, but the owner caught wind of my plan and *asked* me to leave instead…lol.

CREATE ACTION!

What does age 30 look like?

Fitness
Game
Notch count
Living arrangements
Career
Experiences

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Cave “I change my terminology for this blog, but I am a big subscriber to Vox Day’s version of alpha-omega and what not. I think it puts some nuance in it that I can more readily comprehend versus the binary thinking of alpha/beta that tends to permeate the comment section here at TRM. (although I believe Rollo is not binary in that way)” @Liz “The alpha/beta dichotomy seems to be a point of extreme inconsistency and often contention just about everywhere in the sphere, from what I’ve noticed. I really have only my own experiences to go by, and my… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
5 years ago

@theasdgamer “I’ve observed a phenomenon and wondered if you had seen it, too. Two older girls, good friends, one of them (‘A’) throws the other (‘B’) at you and B isn’t all that excited about you, but A is. Maybe A thinks that B needs to be in a relationship and thinks that you are hot and a good match for B.” Usually this means Girl A wants to fuck you but is taken or otherwise unable to, so she throws Girl B at you hoping that she’ll fuck you and she can live vicariously through Girl B’s experience the… Read more »

LM
LM
5 years ago

@asd

Yes because if I were looking for validation this would be the obvious place to come. 🤔

@teddj4g

Definitely. The term ownership probably makes some uncomfortable. I don’t assign it connotations of control or abuse. Yes hot.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ LM

I hate to get picky, but I think that you misspelled “cum”.

LM
LM
5 years ago

@asd

I did. Care to try again?

lh
lh
5 years ago

No. Stop that. What do you think you are doing here? This is no 60+ lonely hearts party in case you were wondering. Rollo told you what is expected. Your time is running.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ LM

Getting tired of your position? Need to shake things up? Try something new? So where to go from here…the “I’m soaking in the tub” has been done to death…I’m thinking…altitude…how are you at climbing trees?

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

LM – uncomfortable doesn’t always equal a negative experience. 😉 And ownership certainly doesn’t imply abuse. I own my car, and I’d be a moron to abuse it since it’ll break down and cost me money. But ya know what is tragically funny to me? As I said, most women want that feeling of being “owned” by a high value man. However, our current society seems to do everything it can to teach women to NEVER submit to a man, while at the same time doing everything it can to make men overall less appealing. And now I have Alanis… Read more »

SlatternsRing
SlatternsRing
5 years ago

Being new to the ‘Sphere, (40 yrs old, n-80ish) I can say in retrospect I hate too see beta behaviors I did so clearly. Predictable results for those couple instances, loss of frame in LTR’s. one-iteis.

CaveClown
CaveClown
5 years ago

Tedd,

I abuse my car fairly regularly, trust me…it likes it.

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

CaveClown – “I abuse my car fairly regularly, trust me…it likes it.”

LOL I had a truck I drove exactly the same way. When I started treating it gentler, it fell apart.

Abuse is one of those subjective kinda things. I suppose part of the compatibility trick between men and women is finding someone that enjoys the kind of abuse you like dishing out. Or, at this point, I’d advise men just broadcast their abusive tendencies and see what comes sniffing. 😛

LM
LM
5 years ago

@teddj4g

I wouldn’t compare a wife to a car. But your point is well taken.

@asd

That took a strange turn…

teddj4g
teddj4g
5 years ago

LM – for me cars and women have a lot in common
1. they are both complicated machines with many moving parts
2. I love the way some of them are curved
3. if you treat them right, they’ll purr and roar for you
4. ALWAYS check the oil level before you take them for a hard drive
5. The harder you drive them, the hotter they get

OK I’m done.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

@ tedd, cave, lm

“I abuse my car fairly regularly, trust me…it likes it.”

“for me cars and women have a lot in common”

I “abuse” my woman fairly regularly, trust me…she likes it.

LM
LM
5 years ago

😆

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Rollo, “Roosh has fucked himself. He’s written a couple of posts about how he doesn’t believe men’s SMV peaks around 36-37 because he’s done absolutely nothing in the last 10 years to maximize his male potential. So naturally the good ole days for a domain dependent guy like himself was back around 27 when he could best capitalize on Game and the Alpha Fucks side of Hypergamy.” Moron Roosh thought he was smart on focusing his life on game only to get poon ,without having the mental point of origin , he thought, he has all the time to do… Read more »

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