Don’t Hate the Beta

beta_hate

A common refrain I hear from even some well meaning Red Pill aware men is that there is some degree of disdain for the “Beta” man in the sphere. There’s not so much a rejection of apparent Red Pill truths as there is a schoolyard mentality when it comes to characterizing a guy as Alpha or Beta. This is where where a lot of guys turn themselves off to the Red Pill in a community sense.

In a way I suppose it becomes reminiscent of guys having been bullied in their formative years by the guys they now have a mental image of being archetypically “Alpha”. So it follows that concepts like AMOGing or running a ‘Boyfriend Destroyer’ script is distasteful; a lot of men, that is to say the 80%+ Beta men, have likely experienced this disqualification in direct or indirect ways in their youth. Sometimes that may simply be a girl he had his ONEitis sights set on opting for a more Alpha guy after telling him she wasn’t ready for a relationship, or it may be a more direct experience of having sand metaphorically kicked in his face.

Thus it becomes a matter of course to entirely dismiss the nuts & bolts understanding of how abstracts like Alpha and Beta are used in the sphere. The default understanding goes something like this, “Those Red Pillers just hate on Betas to build themselves up” or some other version of this where the Red Pill becomes a Machiavellian free for all at the expense of other, ‘lesser’, men.

It’s either this or the abstractions of Alpha and Beta are reduced to absurd binary interpretations; Alphas become ridiculous ‘douchebag’ parodies and Betas become pathetic, simpering doormats for the world to tread upon. In either case the purpose of reducing these abstracts as such is an effort in dismissing the uncomfortable, as well as evidently observable qualities and truths of the intersexual environment that plays out around us.

For the record I think it’s important for Red Pill men to remain as objective and disinvested from making qualitative assumptions about what constitutes the Alpha and Beta abstractions. I don’t hate, pity or resent Beta men. Neither do I embrace the idea that Alpha archetypes as necessarily positive or negative. For the moment however, I’m going to focus on Beta men.

The Presumption of Control

As I mentioned above, one of the primary dismissals men have when they encounter Red Pill thought is to blow it off because “it’s all just a bunch of hating on Betas.” And that presumption comes only if a guy is willing to consider the abstracts of Alpha and Beta in the first place – most simply don’t want to recognize specific ‘statuses’ or defining characteristics of men or women, and just fall back on the “all is relative, all is subjective” mindset they’ve been conditioned to. People are People, there is no human “nature” so there is no male or female “nature”.

But for the guy who at least accepts the idea of human natures, I can certainly understand the reservations of men whose identities were conditioned to a more Beta role. There’s not much positive to characterize a Beta mindset with beyond the utility that conditioning serves to society and women’s sexual strategy. Betas do in fact get laid; the terms on which, and how their sexuality fits their utilitarian role in women’s Hypergamous plan is the real question.

I was recently asked if I thought Beta men employing Beta Game was a successful strategy in the larger scheme of things. If success means that Beta Game will get him laid, I’m incredulous about it. The presumption is that the Beta man employing that ‘game’ is in some way directing and controlling the outcome of his ‘success’. I’d argue that what he believes is ‘game’ is simply his utility to a woman coming into an optimal window for her necessity of him. So is his ‘strategy’ really successful, or is he simply the best ‘Plan B‘ a woman has available to her while her own SMV decays to the point where he’s her best option?

Is that Beta really in control? Or is he simply situationally useful?

I think a lot of what guys new to the manosphere perceive as Beta hate is simply the presumption of control they believe they should be able to exercise with women. After having been told for the the better part of their lives that the more accommodating and identifying with women they are will lead to them being accepted by women it’s a presumption that this is some means of socially acceptable control for them.

It’s very galling to have men place fault on a guy for things he knows are out of his control. I fully understand the angst and frustration that leads to things like Beta Uprising and men frustrated with intersexual dynamics taking it out on the whole of society before they swallow a bullet themselves.

It essentially amounts to victim blaming; Betas are hapless and hopeless mules brainwashed and indentured to serve not just the Feminine Imperative (which would be galling enough), but also to have the pains and strivings that society demands of them be rewarded with women’s genuine intimate interests focusing on Alpha men.

That sucks.

PUAs telling a guy it’s on him as to why women are boring to him, or uninterested in him sexually, only reinforces that angst. It’s like a pastor telling you that if you’d only prayed harder or more earnestly God would have cured your Mom of cancer. So they hate the Alpha, they hate the PUA, they hate the hotchickswithdouchebags guy, but they also hate women and the social/biological mechanics of the position they’re placed in. It presumes a control that he believes he’s never had, nor ever will.

So there comes a point where that Beta wants, sometimes adamantly insists, for his own burden of performance to be replaced, or at least handicapped, by a woman meeting him half way. This want is rooted in his Blue Pill presumption that people are people and in the equalist notion that women’s hindbrains can (willingly) be overridden when it comes to arousal, attraction and intersexual dynamics. Again, if there is no human nature it should stand to reason that a woman could potentially choose that Beta for all the reasons he’s been conditioned to believe she should choose him for. If there is a female nature, and that nature follows (with some degree of consistency) Red Pill aware truths, then his frustrations are founded on his own lack.

But these guys aren’t Blue Pill oblivious men, they are Red Pill aware. They see the truth and that leads to their awakening to the cruel reality that they’re in. So when these guys are put into that place they have a few choices: Snap and take out themselves and as many others as they can, go isolationist MGTOW and retreat to minimal societal investment, go MRA and impotently try to enact legislation that they think will even the social playing filed from the top down, or they can take a realistic look at themselves and reinvent themselves to better play the Game.

The Burden of Fault

Whether it’s fair or not, by virtue of being a man, you’re going to have to accept your burden of performance. That burden includes your liability of accepting fault even for things that aren’t your fault per se. It’s not your fault that you were born and raised into a feminine-primary social order that conditioned you to be an accommodating utility for it – but irrespective of that, you will be held liable for not complying with it or resisting it. You are a man, you will always be accountable.

Is that fucked up? Yes. So with that in mind it is up to you as a Red Pill aware Man to decide for yourself what is worth your investment. Yes my friend, women can be amazing, interesting vivacious and fun, but they can also be fucked up and stupid and absolutely not worth your time, money and effort. It isn’t your fault they are the way they are, but it is your fault for investing yourself in something you’re not enjoying or profiting by.

With all of the railing against women not being worthwhile one would think that would prompt these men to being indifferent to women – but they aren’t. Even the most ardent MGTOW and hapless Beta Red Pill denier still wants women; he simply wants her in his context and his frame on his terms – and to genuinely want to be a part of all that. There’s nothing wrong with this desire, this is precisely what I advise with regards to Frame control, but the disconnect comes in how men go about establishing a Frame women want to be a part of.

Get Out There

I may debate with other men’s takes on how the importance of looks plays in to a man’s overall Game and appeal, but one thing I won’t argue with is the importance of men putting themselves out there and into situations that will most certainly take them out of their comfort zones.

For almost 20 years I have made a living doing exactly this. I have worked in gaming, liquor and brand development ventures that have put me into venues that range from Goth/Alternative/Hipster sets to LGBT events, to mixing with men and women who have the type of wealth that most people don’t even know exists. My career, family and personal life has been my Red Pill classroom and laboratory for all this, and in all of these contexts I have found a way to enjoy myself and/or learn from these interactions.

One reason I will never look to writing Red Pill books as a career option is because it would remove me from the very source of my observations. Living it is the only way keep learning from it. On my own time, I would very likely prefer to lock myself in my studio and paint or sculpt, or to create something new to work into a brand, often to the exclusion of my wife and family and the many friends I have. I’m a very social guy, but I would probably not feel compelled to head off to a night club or any of the events I involve myself in professionally on a weekly basis.

When I’m doing a promo, I know I’m not going to hook up, so I find enjoyment in watching and learning from what I see going on around me. I can’t drink when I’m on a promo or doing a trade show, so even that can’t be a source enjoyment. So why fucking do it right? I make money at it, and it beats living in a cubicle, but I’d much rather be creating new things, new brands, new ideas than interacting with half-buzzed hipsters who think they’re too cool to be there or obnoxious 40 something divorcés ‘sampling’ vodka and hoping to drink their spinsterhood away.

I enjoy what I do and it helps me help other guys. I put myself out in the wild because it’s part of my job(s), but I honestly enjoy interacting with even the dullards and the drunks. It’s what I invest myself in. That may sound like torture to you, but it’s really contextual. I have friends I’ve made at underground Goth events who would blanch at the thought of what I do at a golf tournament. I’m not saying you need to be a social chameleon, but understand that your social education will always be domain dependent if you stay in the settings that make you the most comfortable.

Don’t Hate the Beta

As I mentioned earlier, I don’t hate Beta men. For a long time in my Blue Pill past I was one of them, and I can fully understand the want to mischaracterize an Alpha mindset in order to preserve a sense of self-worth. Beta men don’t warrant pity or disgust, but rather they need a tough harsh awakening to the reality of the situation they find themselves in.

I don’t think Beta men are hopeless, but they will remain in a state of hopelessness so long as they subscribe to a want of making things easier for their condition rather than improving themselves to better play the Game. That’s hard to hear for most Beta men and I understand the protective need for denial in this, but I know of very few Red Pill men who really despise Beta or Blue Pill men. They despise his indentured state, they despise his willful obliviousness to his conditioned uses. They despise the lengths to which Blue Pill men will go in their hope to be appreciated by the system that made them what they are.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sun Wukong
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@keyser

Christ, I forgot about that joke. Love that one.

kfg
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I make a distinction between society and civilization. Society is the realm of women. Civilization the realm of men. You can think of it as the dining room vs. the board room. Civilization, as I have known it, is already dead, the body just hasn’t had time to fall over yet. I do my best to preserve a small enclave of the culture I once knew, but am fully aware that I do so strictly for my own comfort. When the body finally hits the ground, well, I am prepared for that sort of life as well. I’ll even enjoy… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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SJF
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6x-mjqsLR6c
A lot of change comes from self reflection as well as feedback

rugby11ljh
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@kfg
“Civilization the realm of men. You can think of it as the dining room vs. the board room.

Civilization, as I have known it, is already dead, the body just hasn’t had time to fall over yet.”

Death I find in the presence of man is confronted with honor courage and mastery. Without it it’s as if society has taken over

“Society is the realm of women.”
Holy hell your right.

http://www.bibliotecadigital.ufmg.br/dspace/bitstream/handle/1843/ECAP-7QUHPK/diss_newrev_apr2009mai2009.pdf?sequence=1

I find many old friends would agree who are no longer here to speak about in human form

Andy
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Name ONE fucking way that society looks out for us single guys that means married guys have got our back when it comes to women. ONE.

http://www.therationalmale.com

kfg
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Rollo is a counter-revolutionary. From the perspective of society, anti-social.

keyser Soze
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Andy
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What the fuck are you doing getting married if you’re active duty military?

Totally agree. Huge mistake. Made with zero knowledge of hypergamy. You on the other hand are equipped with the full knowledge of hypergamy.

Sun Wukong
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@Andy

Bullshit. Funny thing is that I knew you’d try that one. Try again, cupcake.

You on the other hand are equipped with the full knowledge of hypergamy.

And I intend to use it to my advantage. Sounds like he’d better learn and do the same. That’s on him though.

Sun Wukong
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Meanwhile, as if on cue, married chick that I fucked a while back just messaged me out of the blue after seeing me on the motorcycle around town. She’s apparently with some new guy (her second choice when I wouldn’t commit) she’s claiming to be exclusive with, but wants my attention whenever she sees me.

Andy
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“And I intend to use it to my advantage. Sounds like he’d better learn and do the same. That’s on him though.”

Okay, so that’s the conclusion that we’re coming to? The wife of a blue pill beta deployed serviceman is ethically fair game… This, to me, is an issue of male honor that is in DIRECT opposition to the FI.

This is just sad to me. I’ve lost a little bit of respect for a lot people.

Blaximus
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Life ain’t fair or honorable.

All women are fair game. They love it that way.

Blaximus
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Back in the day, guys would hit on my wife while she was 6 months pregnant. It’s not relevant what the ” guy ” does, it’s relevant what the married woman does. Don’t complain about the ethics of a situation. Deal with the facts on the ground, always. Anything else is just dreaming. I get all that you’re saying, but it’s a bit delusional because things aren’t how you’d like them to be, they are how they are. Yin and Yang. Good and Bad. When you run up against bad, it’s useless to wish it were different. In the land… Read more »

SJF
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Strength, Courage and Mastery. Project that shit among men. Honor among men. From Jack Donovan’s “Way of Men”: The idea of honor shines an ancient light so warm and golden that everyone wants to stand in it. This is the most natural desire in the world, because honor in its most inclusive sense is esteem, respect and status. To be honored is to be respected by one’s peers. Thomas Hobbes wrote in Leviathan that what was honorable was, “whatsoever possession, action, or quality, is an argument and a signe of Power.” Hobbes believed that honor existed in a free market,… Read more »

SJF
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Understanding Dishonor Part of the reason that honor is a virtue rather than merely a state of affairs is that showing concern for the respect of your peers is a show of loyalty and indication of belonging—of being us rather than them. It is a show of deference. Hobbes noted that men honored each other by seeking each other’s counsel and by imitating each other. Caring about what the men around you think of you is a show of respect, and conversely, not caring what other men think of you is a sign of disrespect. In a survival band, it… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Andy

I’ve lost a little bit of respect for a lot people.

You say that as though I give a fuck about your respect. As though you personally matter to me. PROTIP: You don’t.

I’m here to achieve my goals. Your respect isn’t one of them. Get over yourself. You’re just not that important to anyone in the end.

Forge the Sky
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Well, apparently I’ve been missing out on the fun thread.

I’ve not read most of this last page, but my general thought is that maybe we haven’t figured out what inspires a woman’s loyalty, and what that loyalty entails, enough yet to make some (pretty harsh) value judgements. There will be blood before we fully grasp it.

Maybe more nuanced thoughts if I get around to reading all of this wink

SJF
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………but my general thought is that maybe we haven’t figured out what inspires a woman’s loyalty, and what that loyalty entails, enough yet to make some (pretty harsh) value judgements. There will be blood before we fully grasp it. Watch the video at the beginning of this essay: http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/18/the-honor-system/ Man Up or Shut Up – The Male Catch 22 One of the primary way’s Honor is used against men is in the feminized perpetuation of traditionally masculine expectations when it’s convenient, while simultaneously expecting egalitarian gender parity when it’s convenient. For the past 60 years feminization has built in the… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Forge

TL;DR: Broknights tut and shame anyone not agreeing with their ego invested BP soaked opinion. Sun Wukong drops the mic.

Roused
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This past week I was called a womanizer, I took it as a compliment. Especially liked the label as it came from a man who allowed his wife to chop off his balls and is spineless. Funny thing about that is I told my gf about all this and it got her incredibly turned on and we fucked hard. Emptied the tank as Blax would say. Working on game has been some hits and misses, learning a lot but man oh man is it tricky if one doesn’t practice often. I did get the phone # of the ex-cheerleader hottie… Read more »

SJF
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@Sun Wukong

Sun Wukong drops the mic.

I, for one, would sure appreciate it if you would hurry up and get un-depressed, pick up the mic./headphones and have another Sun Wukong roundtable session.

Your roundtable (Man-table) discussions were a game changer and tipping point for me in my life. I want to thank you for that.

And if you hurry up, while Andy is still butthurt, he won’t want to join in.

Andy
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@Blaximus “It’s a bit delusional because things aren’t how you’d like them to be, they are how they are.” But I’m not talking about “most guys.” I’m talking about men. Here. Men that understand women not going to bat for blue pill men that DON’T understand women. Men that I have respect for. But now, a little bit less respect. I value your opinions a little bit less. I don’t care that you don’t care, but I’m going to tell you anyway. @Sun “I’m here to achieve my goals. Your respect isn’t one of them. Get over yourself. You’re just… Read more »

mersonia
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@Andy Being a broknight online isn’t worth much. Labels don’t mean anything online anyways

SJF
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“Look, you guys clearly think that this is about me.” It is about you Andy. It’s not about some guy fucking a blue-pill man wife (that point is irrelevant). The quotes weren’t directed to you, but about a man’s honor among men in general. It is about you being better at being a man. The record clearly states that Blaximus and I are monogamous and wouldn’t fuck a married man’s wife (and Sun is currently too scared of doing that). The record clearly states that if we don’t have a personal investment in that cuckolded guy, we don’t care. We’re… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@SJF

And if you hurry up, while Andy is still butthurt, he won’t want to join in.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/051/724/4UTEYIX2U4UDZ4HTAEKBRLOCHFB6COKE.jpeg

Anonymous Reader
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Blaximus 90% of people you meet will have gone through some really bad stuff in life. No one walks around talking about awful shit that they’ve had to deal with. Truth. And let’s be real, anyone who does go around talking about all the awful stuff they’ve had to deal with is pretty tedious after a short while. It’s like this, “Yeah, that’s rough. That’s bad. What are you going about it?” I can’t say enough good things about Biology of Desire. Wish I’d had that book 15 years back, when I knew some alcoholics. But I do have it… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
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Don’t wish it were easier. Wish you were better.

If a woman said this, it would be called “Hamstering.”

Pellaeon
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Damn, that’s a long ass list of comments to catch up on. Finally read most of everything though. @YaReally If you’re willing, Id like to hit you up for some perspective later. All of my experiences have shown me that being fat is just a huge motherfucking hurdle. I’m curious as to whether you got your first sexual experiences while still being fat, or if fatness came after your first kiss and lay. @Andy It sounds to me as if you just haven’t been burned enough times by blue pill guys. From what you’re saying, it sounds like you just… Read more »

SJF
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@Andy, et al

Here is an old post of Rollo’s in case you need to start mate guarding:

http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/17/boundaries/

“The only person who’s behavior you can control is your own, but that behavior can have a significant impact on the behaviors of others.”

YaReally
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@Pellaeon “If you’re willing, Id like to hit you up for some perspective later. All of my experiences have shown me that being fat is just a huge motherfucking hurdle. I’m curious as to whether you got your first sexual experiences while still being fat, or if fatness came after your first kiss and lay.” I’d call it chubby more than fat…till I see photos of myself and see my gross double chin lol But I’m not like 300lbs fat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7PAYhmoKkA RSDTyler was fat for a few years and says he didn’t even realize he was fat, he thought he… Read more »

YaReally
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@Pellaeon Think of it this way. If you meet some smokin hot girl, tits out to here, ass you can bounce a quarter off etc. and she has kind of a lame personality and works at McDonald’s, would you still fuck her? Some guys might not but for the most part most guys will. Would it be NICE if she had an amazing personality and impressive career on top of that body? Sure…although if you’re just keeping her as a fuckbuddy you might not even really care because the main thing that attracts you to her and gives you a… Read more »

keyser Soze
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Yareally : Would it be NICE if you were also a 6’4″ jacked He-Man? Ya, sure…

Don’t you love Freudian slips. But, then again, according to Yareally, all 6’4 jacked men have no game and can’t dominate women.

Ps,
6’4 jacked men don’t even bother to approach women, women approach them.

Anonymous Reader
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I know an early 20’s man who is 6’4″ tall, and rather fit – he spent the summer working outside doing semi skilled labor that required strength. Women don’t seem to approach him, he’s getting a little better about approaching them. I’m coaching him a bit from time to time.

His height works against him with women under 5’8″ or so, it appears to me.

Pellaeon
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@yareally Thanks that was really helpful, particularly the fat suit video. 99% of the time it’s all in your head, but it comes through in your subcomms and the girls are pinging off you to know how to feel so when you feel insecure about something the girl thinks “ok if he’s insecure about it then it must be something to be insecure about” and it becomes a big deal. Is it GOOD to lose the weight and get in shape? Ya, sure, but more for health reasons (easier to bang girls, better to keep yourself in long-term shape, etc)… Read more »

keyser Soze
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@anonymous,
The Fox Without
a Tail

It happened that a Fox caught its tail in a trap, and in struggling to release himself lost all of it but the stump.

At first he was ashamed to show himself among his fellow foxes. But at last he determined to put a bolder face upon his misfortune, and summoned all the foxes to a general meeting to consider a proposal which he had to place before them.

When they had assembled together the Fox proposed that they should all do away with their tails.

keyser Soze
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Yareally : “Did cavemen all look like the guys in 300? Or did they just look like various masses of flesh that could dominantly toss a cavewoman around by the hair and fuck her brains out”

Back in the day of the cavemen, the strong big cavemen, DOMINATED the little cavemen and women(women gravitated towards them). It was : the survival of the finest.

keyser Soze
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@anonymous,
I know a lot of early 20’s men who is 5’6″ tall, and not fit – they spent the summer working outside doing semi skilled labor that required no strength. Women don’t seem to approach them, they’re getting a little better about approaching them. I’m coaching them a bit from time to time.

Their height works against them with women under 5’8″ or so, it appears to me.

Nick
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From the way I see things, Rollo himself is a classic traditionalist beta male. This is from the limited knowledge I have about him of course. I was listening to an interview he did with a dude. In the interview he stated that his wife EXPECTS him to take the lead and fufill the masculine role. They were talking about frame. She expects him to hold frame. So by my books that means shes actually the one in control. He handles the responsibilities and the ‘manly’ things. His relationship is still gynocentric in nature, its just more traditional where he… Read more »

SJF
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Hey Nick,

http://lewamack.com/Facebook/Pics/Confused-Surprised-Shocked-Q/Confused-animated-Don_Adams-Get_Smart-maxwell_smart__confused.gif

The old “I have extremely limited knowledge but I’ll NEG the host of this blog trick” eh? Good luck with that.

kfg
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“Theres a youtube channel called ‘Alex on Life’ . . .”

Yes, there is.

Liz
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“What the fuck are you doing getting married if you’re active duty military?” A lot of people are married BEFORE they go into the military. The military is (often) a good and honest means of taking care of one’s family. The pay isn’t great, for quite a while, but there’s health insurance and the commissary where food is typically a little cheaper at least. And there’s the promise of education benefits. Then there are the folks who sign on and things change…which is easy to happen when the initial commitment is nine or ten years (which it is for certain… Read more »

kfg
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“. . . if someone can smooth talk a wife into betrayal of one’s husband . . .”

. . . that someone is the wife.

Liz
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” . . that someone is the wife.”

You’ll get no argument from me.

Forge the Sky
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“Okay, so that’s the conclusion that we’re coming to? The wife of a blue pill beta deployed serviceman is ethically fair game… This, to me, is an issue of male honor that is in DIRECT opposition to the FI.” Alright, not to pile on here, but I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I can only rephrase points made earlier, but once more from the top: You need to determine your own ethics. Those ethics are yours, and you can’t expect other men to hold to them as well. @Andy, what you seem to be trying to express… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Also to add: not fucking a man’s wife is pretty unlikely to be an act of real compassion. At least if you understand how these things go down. Once when I was younger a girl at a party I was at learned her boyfriend wasn’t coming over that night, and she was apparently really horny so she tried to get me to bang her instead. I declined, gently and kindly, so that (in my mind) a moment of weakness on her part wouldn’t lead to regret for her later. That was actually a bit of compassion, because I was really… Read more »

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” . . that someone is the wife.” Liz You’ll get no argument from me. Indeed. Jody doesn’t break the front door down to get to the wife of a deployed man, she opens it for him. Usually with a smile. Some years back I remember some very good sense on Spearhead from a milwife who posted as Hestia – a sensible handle that showed some wisdom in and of itself. She detailed some of the ways that milwives banded together to try to keep each other on the ranch while their men were deployed. Nothing too surprising, but a… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Forge the sky “True honor is never easy, and it’s outright discouraged in the prevailing environment.” Just thinking about this. Use to swim naked in open lakes around the southern part of the US and for some reason. Being in a state of nudity braught this up a lot to the forefront of my brain. The thing I’ve come to learn about myself is the trauma I’ve gone through put me in a position of blue pill ideology and made it harder for me to understanding my burden to perform and stop coping the way I learned from women. Honor… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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So what’s the argument of “I was married then I went in to the army”? This time you knew before you made the decision that you already had responsibilities at home you were abandoning? I fail to see where that’s any less a dereliction of the burden of performance in marriage.

It’s still just signing both people up for nothing less than an LDR.

Liz
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“So what’s the argument of “I was married then I went in to the army”?”
I just gave it to you, above. Those reasons become more compelling in a bad economy. There was a time when military members didn’t deploy at quite the frequency they do now. But, yes, the deployment rates are awful. I wouldn’t say it’s dereliction of the burden of married to make an honest living and support a family though. Same case could be made for any traveling career…or those oil riggers in North Dakota.

Liz
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Liz
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Just thinking further, after posting on the subject of marriage over at Dragonfly’s site. When a couple forms a family with the goal of building a life together, they have to grow up. It isn’t just “this is fun” and “this validates me at the moment”. The goal is longterm success. That requires effort, and it isn’t always “fun”. Unless one is already successful, part of that effort is doing hard ground work at the beginning. Most people aren’t in that position early in life, so they have to work for it. When a woman cats around when her man… Read more »

IAS
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IAS
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@Liz : we have just been through this with Andy.
I and others would indeed not be interested in having sex with a person like that, presumably because our own goals are not just having sex.

But for lots of men, the goal IS just to have sex with any willing women (possibly with a certain threshold of what he considers attractive enough). Those men don’t care for her personality, how her cheating on her husband reflects on her, and so on.

Liz
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Liz
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Fair enough, IAS. Point taken.

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@Liz I think you seriously underestimate the power the prospect of pussy holds for men who aren’t getting any. Even for well-developed guys, what we call a ‘scarcity mindset’ is often the chief stumbling-block in having good relationships with women. No-one’s ugly after 2 am, as the saying goes, and neither is any woman too much of a bitch. You seem to be couching this quite natural part of masculine sexuality in fairly negative terms. Flip the script – from the masculine perspective, the sexual pickiness of women – hypergamy – can seem meaningless and cruel. Women survey the starving… Read more »

Liz
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“You seem to be couching this quite natural part of masculine sexuality in fairly negative terms. Flip the script – from the masculine perspective, the sexual pickiness of women – hypergamy – can seem meaningless and cruel. Women survey the starving masses and refuse to offer aid because they can’t stand the smell.” Well, if I am couching this “quite natural part of masculine sexuality” in “fairly negative terms”, I’m couching the (assumably) just as natural part of female sexuality in more negative terms. Doesn’t hypergamy demand the woman cat around, even after marriage, and so forth? Female “pickiness” isn’t… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Liz Forge pretty much mapped it out. Broknights, in my experience, are either married (ego-invested in society protecting their marriage for them) or choking on this part of the Red Pill. I would love if I got attention from nothing but unattached, pleasant, good looking women. However, reality when I go out is that most of the time the very few attractive women are attached (often hiding or removing their rings), and the overwhelming majority of unattractive ones that remain are single. Expecting me to fall on the grenade for a guy I don’t care about just ain’t happening. My… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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@Liz I’m actually stating, categorically, if a married woman behaves in this way she is a bad person with unedifying character traits. By contrast I’m just suggesting any “takers” consider this and choose otherwise if there is something else available. You cannot know a woman is or isn’t like that until she does it. The chick that messaged me again the other day was not “the type”. You literally could not have guessed back when I met her that she was. Church-going, devout, very naive and sweet. Looked down on women who would cheat on their husbands even though hers… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Forge the Sky
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@Liz “Well, if I am couching this “quite natural part of masculine sexuality” in “fairly negative terms”, I’m couching the (assumably) just as natural part of female sexuality in more negative terms.” This isn’t a morality contest. And yes, hypergamy is a natural part of female sexuality. It’s quite natural for women to have an impulse to ‘cat around.’ Memorable phrase, lol I appreciate that you’re doing your best to see this from a man’s angle and self-interests. My comment was trying to give a more complete overview of what that perspective is. FWIW, I do think that people should… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” I do think that people should stick to their values and commitments.”

One of the things that has helped me get through life was figuring out, while still very young, that that is exactly what they do.

Andy
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Andy
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Here’s where I am right now. IMO Most married guys are hard working and well meaning people that have no idea how to keep their wives happy through no fault of their own. Plus, I just have respect for men in general trying to make the best of their situations in these times. Also I respect a man’s marriage because divorce-rape, and the fact that I respect the institution of marriage itself. Therefore I’ll give a married man respect by default. Along with that, we as “red pill” guys have superior knowledge and power regarding women. IMO that means we… Read more »

K. Q. Duane
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Wow! You people live in a very weird world.

Sun Wukong
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Sun Wukong
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TJ
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TJ
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I swear this site is filled with undercover agents from WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. Do you people even read what you write? Tell the truth now…you’re all pretending to be men who are all about pleasing women, right? I can’t be the only one to see through this. I gotta say…great work. Ya had me going for the first paragraph or two. You folks would rake in the dough as car or bridge salesman I tell ya. Hope I didn’t insult any car or bridge sales people with that last part. LOL you folks slay me. Alpha mails. I love it! Keep up… Read more »

bob bitchin
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bob bitchin
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This comment thread is sad.
Real sad.

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