Don’t Hate the Beta

beta_hate

A common refrain I hear from even some well meaning Red Pill aware men is that there is some degree of disdain for the “Beta” man in the sphere. There’s not so much a rejection of apparent Red Pill truths as there is a schoolyard mentality when it comes to characterizing a guy as Alpha or Beta. This is where where a lot of guys turn themselves off to the Red Pill in a community sense.

In a way I suppose it becomes reminiscent of guys having been bullied in their formative years by the guys they now have a mental image of being archetypically “Alpha”. So it follows that concepts like AMOGing or running a ‘Boyfriend Destroyer’ script is distasteful; a lot of men, that is to say the 80%+ Beta men, have likely experienced this disqualification in direct or indirect ways in their youth. Sometimes that may simply be a girl he had his ONEitis sights set on opting for a more Alpha guy after telling him she wasn’t ready for a relationship, or it may be a more direct experience of having sand metaphorically kicked in his face.

Thus it becomes a matter of course to entirely dismiss the nuts & bolts understanding of how abstracts like Alpha and Beta are used in the sphere. The default understanding goes something like this, “Those Red Pillers just hate on Betas to build themselves up” or some other version of this where the Red Pill becomes a Machiavellian free for all at the expense of other, ‘lesser’, men.

It’s either this or the abstractions of Alpha and Beta are reduced to absurd binary interpretations; Alphas become ridiculous ‘douchebag’ parodies and Betas become pathetic, simpering doormats for the world to tread upon. In either case the purpose of reducing these abstracts as such is an effort in dismissing the uncomfortable, as well as evidently observable qualities and truths of the intersexual environment that plays out around us.

For the record I think it’s important for Red Pill men to remain as objective and disinvested from making qualitative assumptions about what constitutes the Alpha and Beta abstractions. I don’t hate, pity or resent Beta men. Neither do I embrace the idea that Alpha archetypes as necessarily positive or negative. For the moment however, I’m going to focus on Beta men.

The Presumption of Control

As I mentioned above, one of the primary dismissals men have when they encounter Red Pill thought is to blow it off because “it’s all just a bunch of hating on Betas.” And that presumption comes only if a guy is willing to consider the abstracts of Alpha and Beta in the first place – most simply don’t want to recognize specific ‘statuses’ or defining characteristics of men or women, and just fall back on the “all is relative, all is subjective” mindset they’ve been conditioned to. People are People, there is no human “nature” so there is no male or female “nature”.

But for the guy who at least accepts the idea of human natures, I can certainly understand the reservations of men whose identities were conditioned to a more Beta role. There’s not much positive to characterize a Beta mindset with beyond the utility that conditioning serves to society and women’s sexual strategy. Betas do in fact get laid; the terms on which, and how their sexuality fits their utilitarian role in women’s Hypergamous plan is the real question.

I was recently asked if I thought Beta men employing Beta Game was a successful strategy in the larger scheme of things. If success means that Beta Game will get him laid, I’m incredulous about it. The presumption is that the Beta man employing that ‘game’ is in some way directing and controlling the outcome of his ‘success’. I’d argue that what he believes is ‘game’ is simply his utility to a woman coming into an optimal window for her necessity of him. So is his ‘strategy’ really successful, or is he simply the best ‘Plan B‘ a woman has available to her while her own SMV decays to the point where he’s her best option?

Is that Beta really in control? Or is he simply situationally useful?

I think a lot of what guys new to the manosphere perceive as Beta hate is simply the presumption of control they believe they should be able to exercise with women. After having been told for the the better part of their lives that the more accommodating and identifying with women they are will lead to them being accepted by women it’s a presumption that this is some means of socially acceptable control for them.

It’s very galling to have men place fault on a guy for things he knows are out of his control. I fully understand the angst and frustration that leads to things like Beta Uprising and men frustrated with intersexual dynamics taking it out on the whole of society before they swallow a bullet themselves.

It essentially amounts to victim blaming; Betas are hapless and hopeless mules brainwashed and indentured to serve not just the Feminine Imperative (which would be galling enough), but also to have the pains and strivings that society demands of them be rewarded with women’s genuine intimate interests focusing on Alpha men.

That sucks.

PUAs telling a guy it’s on him as to why women are boring to him, or uninterested in him sexually, only reinforces that angst. It’s like a pastor telling you that if you’d only prayed harder or more earnestly God would have cured your Mom of cancer. So they hate the Alpha, they hate the PUA, they hate the hotchickswithdouchebags guy, but they also hate women and the social/biological mechanics of the position they’re placed in. It presumes a control that he believes he’s never had, nor ever will.

So there comes a point where that Beta wants, sometimes adamantly insists, for his own burden of performance to be replaced, or at least handicapped, by a woman meeting him half way. This want is rooted in his Blue Pill presumption that people are people and in the equalist notion that women’s hindbrains can (willingly) be overridden when it comes to arousal, attraction and intersexual dynamics. Again, if there is no human nature it should stand to reason that a woman could potentially choose that Beta for all the reasons he’s been conditioned to believe she should choose him for. If there is a female nature, and that nature follows (with some degree of consistency) Red Pill aware truths, then his frustrations are founded on his own lack.

But these guys aren’t Blue Pill oblivious men, they are Red Pill aware. They see the truth and that leads to their awakening to the cruel reality that they’re in. So when these guys are put into that place they have a few choices: Snap and take out themselves and as many others as they can, go isolationist MGTOW and retreat to minimal societal investment, go MRA and impotently try to enact legislation that they think will even the social playing filed from the top down, or they can take a realistic look at themselves and reinvent themselves to better play the Game.

The Burden of Fault

Whether it’s fair or not, by virtue of being a man, you’re going to have to accept your burden of performance. That burden includes your liability of accepting fault even for things that aren’t your fault per se. It’s not your fault that you were born and raised into a feminine-primary social order that conditioned you to be an accommodating utility for it – but irrespective of that, you will be held liable for not complying with it or resisting it. You are a man, you will always be accountable.

Is that fucked up? Yes. So with that in mind it is up to you as a Red Pill aware Man to decide for yourself what is worth your investment. Yes my friend, women can be amazing, interesting vivacious and fun, but they can also be fucked up and stupid and absolutely not worth your time, money and effort. It isn’t your fault they are the way they are, but it is your fault for investing yourself in something you’re not enjoying or profiting by.

With all of the railing against women not being worthwhile one would think that would prompt these men to being indifferent to women – but they aren’t. Even the most ardent MGTOW and hapless Beta Red Pill denier still wants women; he simply wants her in his context and his frame on his terms – and to genuinely want to be a part of all that. There’s nothing wrong with this desire, this is precisely what I advise with regards to Frame control, but the disconnect comes in how men go about establishing a Frame women want to be a part of.

Get Out There

I may debate with other men’s takes on how the importance of looks plays in to a man’s overall Game and appeal, but one thing I won’t argue with is the importance of men putting themselves out there and into situations that will most certainly take them out of their comfort zones.

For almost 20 years I have made a living doing exactly this. I have worked in gaming, liquor and brand development ventures that have put me into venues that range from Goth/Alternative/Hipster sets to LGBT events, to mixing with men and women who have the type of wealth that most people don’t even know exists. My career, family and personal life has been my Red Pill classroom and laboratory for all this, and in all of these contexts I have found a way to enjoy myself and/or learn from these interactions.

One reason I will never look to writing Red Pill books as a career option is because it would remove me from the very source of my observations. Living it is the only way keep learning from it. On my own time, I would very likely prefer to lock myself in my studio and paint or sculpt, or to create something new to work into a brand, often to the exclusion of my wife and family and the many friends I have. I’m a very social guy, but I would probably not feel compelled to head off to a night club or any of the events I involve myself in professionally on a weekly basis.

When I’m doing a promo, I know I’m not going to hook up, so I find enjoyment in watching and learning from what I see going on around me. I can’t drink when I’m on a promo or doing a trade show, so even that can’t be a source enjoyment. So why fucking do it right? I make money at it, and it beats living in a cubicle, but I’d much rather be creating new things, new brands, new ideas than interacting with half-buzzed hipsters who think they’re too cool to be there or obnoxious 40 something divorcés ‘sampling’ vodka and hoping to drink their spinsterhood away.

I enjoy what I do and it helps me help other guys. I put myself out in the wild because it’s part of my job(s), but I honestly enjoy interacting with even the dullards and the drunks. It’s what I invest myself in. That may sound like torture to you, but it’s really contextual. I have friends I’ve made at underground Goth events who would blanch at the thought of what I do at a golf tournament. I’m not saying you need to be a social chameleon, but understand that your social education will always be domain dependent if you stay in the settings that make you the most comfortable.

Don’t Hate the Beta

As I mentioned earlier, I don’t hate Beta men. For a long time in my Blue Pill past I was one of them, and I can fully understand the want to mischaracterize an Alpha mindset in order to preserve a sense of self-worth. Beta men don’t warrant pity or disgust, but rather they need a tough harsh awakening to the reality of the situation they find themselves in.

I don’t think Beta men are hopeless, but they will remain in a state of hopelessness so long as they subscribe to a want of making things easier for their condition rather than improving themselves to better play the Game. That’s hard to hear for most Beta men and I understand the protective need for denial in this, but I know of very few Red Pill men who really despise Beta or Blue Pill men. They despise his indentured state, they despise his willful obliviousness to his conditioned uses. They despise the lengths to which Blue Pill men will go in their hope to be appreciated by the system that made them what they are.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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theasdgamer
5 years ago

PUAs telling a guy it’s on him as to why women are boring to him, or uninterested in him sexually, only reinforces that angst

This is the point that keeps getting hammered home in this thread.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

Lots of “Red Pill” men are actually Purple Pill hoping that some of the old rules apply. The only old rules extant are rules that both partners choose to abide by. No one else will enforce them. Have a strategy that will encourage your partner to abide by the old rules. Options. Dread. Check whether she mateguards herself.

Me, I might have a unicorn, maybe you do, too, but don’t be surprised if your woman ejects for Frank Fratman.

kobayashii1681
5 years ago

Of beta governments and apologies….
Thoughts lads?

https://www.rt.com/uk/322855-undercover-police-spies-apology/

Seraph
Seraph
5 years ago

@Forge, “I’m tearing apart your written game here but that’s just one part of this.” Tear away. I appreciate the criticism as I could use the analysis for future reference. Your issue isn’t over or under engagement. Nor the length of the message. The issue is that you took a middle road, one that possesses neither an alluring brevity nor a vividly-expressed personality. Ok, interesting. I thought initially to wrote a very brief message, something along the lines of: Good to see you too. We should get together sometime.” But I K’O’d it as thinking it would come off as… Read more »

theasdgamer
5 years ago

Kayser is calling people out (Really? YaReally) because he doesn’t want TRM to become an echo chamber.

YaReally is wordy as fuck (how wordy exactly is fuck?), but that’s because he’s putting the cookies on the lower shelf. He’s contributing a lot of time and passing on his PUA field experiences.

Rollo is precise as always.

All the commenters have something helpful to contribute.

Even me with Dread Game, dancing, autism, etc.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

@Kobayashii: On the one hand, the FI has gotten totally out of control. On the other hand, police stings have gotten totally out of control.

Maybe they deserve each other. It’s just a shame that the rest of us are left paying for it.

YaReally
5 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTdk0-bpv90

“I have a boyfriend, I love my boyfriend”. lol Is Tyler the bad guy here? Or is that chick choosing to give no fucks about the commitments she’s made. Is her life worse after this? Is her home broken and her kids living without a father because of this? Or does she just give no fucks because her boyfriend isn’t doing his job.

SO many examples of this infield lol

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

When you leave your car unlocked and a thief steels it, don’t blame him , the world is full of thieves , blame yourself .

When a PUA fucks your wife, don’t kill the messenger.

theasdgamer
5 years ago

The comments from the women on my blog about Headlight Game are instructive. They all think that it’s absurd and all find it to be hilarious. This matches my experience based on five data points.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@CaveClown November 20th, 2015 at 10:26 am Just to be clear, you need validation, I need validation, we all need validation. We just need it to not be our thumbscrew. Not to be the driving force in scoring pussy. In other words you need to not feel invalidated and let that feeling be a driving force in your mission. I find that idea also dove-tailing into a lot of posts here that assume scoring good pussy and bragging about it on the internet is validating themselves to the readers of this blog. Nothing could be further from the truth. We… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

@Seraph “Oh… So, THAT would have been the point, then?” Yup! “As far as a vividly-expressed personality, I can do that, but the last time I did that with a chick who blatantly approached me about ‘keeping in touch’ on a regular basis at a party (we knew other through mutual friends, always had attraction, could sense she wanted more than a pen pal), proceeded to blow me off after one ‘fun, playful’ email from me.” Ya that tends to work better with a girl you have more regular interaction with. You can come across as just weird if she… Read more »

Roused
Roused
5 years ago

@Cave Clown

You often make comments about your height, but check this out. This kid is only 5’8″ and gets props for being the hero in the Spartans beating defending national champs Ohio State and ending their 23-game winning streak.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2591735-michigan-state-kicker-celebrates-wildly-after-gw-field-goal-vs-ohio-state

This may not totally apply to you, but it’s pretty cool that the short guy was the big time hero.

immoralgables
5 years ago

@Scray

Dude! Welcome back and thanks for posting on your progress!

“This last year I’ve done shit that I thought was impossible for me to do. Halloween was insane. I’ve got a group of over 100 people I connect now at clubs….it’s ridiculous (if you’re interested in getting something like this going, I can give deets”

Would love to hear about how you got that setup going? I’m in a good location (NYC) to give it a try.

-IG

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

I’m late to the ” fuck a wife ” party, but I always unplug from the web for a few days. I still wanna get some thoughts in here though…. Rollo is more inline with my thinking on the subject. Anyone screwing a guy’s wife has actually done the husband a favor, and if a woman wants to have sex with a man, any man, she will find a way to do so. I’ve never worried about anyone fucking my wife at all. Not once. My attitude is that it is understood that people can and will do whatever they… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Rollo said- ” There are so many attitudinal and subtle behavior traits that manifest in men who are presented with options or enjoy even casual social proof. I’m not sure a lot of guys really realize just how sensitive women are to those ‘tells’. You will do things, say things, without thinking about them that indicate on a limbic level what you believe about yourself. Women have evolved to perceive even the smallest cues of this – to the point it’s a subconscious subroutine running in their background processing of information about you.” Let the church say ” Amen “.… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago
Reply to  Blaximus

@Blaximus “Fucking your wife is not mowing the lawn.” One seems more dangerous than another. If you don’t know the manual of maintenance. @Rollo Tommassi “There are so many attitudinal and subtle behavior traits that manifest in men who are presented with options or enjoy even casual social proof. I’m not sure a lot of guys really realize just how sensitive women are to those ‘tells’. You will do things, say things, without thinking about them that indicate on a limbic level what you believe about yourself. Women have evolved to perceive even the smallest cues of this – to… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

You write some great, congruent be-a-man stuff Blaximus.

Thanks for that. I’ll cosign it any day.

tmach5
5 years ago

Would being “Beta” be easier to live with if we could marry more than one wife?

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@yaReally If you were triggering her Hypergamy, she wouldn’t give a shit about me.” We talk about hypergamy like it’s this permanent structure that you build upon like you’re adding bricks to a tower or something. The reality is that it’s very fluid on that AF side. Like day to day, week to week fluid. Can we agree on that? Do they? I don’t know that. I look around at married guys and see a bunch of sad sacks with beer bellies working jobs they hate with no dreams getting berated by their wives and just boozing their days away.… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

LOL- Andy is whining about the fact that women are not like men …

… and Andy dear …

telling guys to GFT who are communicating hard truths is one of the ultimate beta tells. Women ***despise*** whiners who won’t accept hard truths- the Burden Of Performance.

Take a long, hard look in the mirror, Mr. Andy

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

You deny that there’s a gray area in satisfying hypergamy? You deny that there are external factors outside of your control that will affect your relationships?

Regarding Blaximus. I understand what he’s saying. I’m working on it. I don’t think I’ve ever implied that I’m just throwing my hands in the air and giving up… But if he’s going to be a douche about it I’m not going to just sit there and take it.

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

@Andy: dude you wrote good advice here that I already benefited from but in this issue you are refusing to swallow the red pill. Hypergamy doesn’t care about it being grey area or not. It is true that we are all at risk, without it being our fault, of having stuff happen that will lower our SMV. That is partly why RP is so adamant about not getting married. AWALT is not all women are equal, and some outliers will stick it out and stay faithful in relatively extreme circumstances, but most won’t and the point is to accept that… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“You can feel bad about all these men whose wives positioned themselves to having sex with a PUA because they lost their job, their legs, or are away doing their job somewhere else, but it won’t make things better for you or for them.” So it’s blue pill for me to have some respect for my fellow man? It’s not like it’s harmless. Even if the husband was previously her best sex ever, the PUA is most likely going to turn her into an Alpha widow. That won’t be easy to overcome in the context of a live-in monogamous relationship.… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

Andy,

Bemused indifference coupled with a smug dismissal might have been a better way to deal with the comment you found offensive.

… you still come of as whiny when you flip the bird at a a guy saying something you don’t like …

You’ll never boost attraction in your woman(en) that way …

Women are attracted to men who are in ontrol of their world, and outcome-independence is 1 way to convey that.

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

More to the point, what you said, IAS, about the girl not being “his” property, is so true! The old paradigm that many guys have absorbed, without really examining the assumptions, is that a woman is “property” of a man- first her father, her brothers if the father is gone, then she is given to her husand. Think about our WASP wedding ceremonies, where the father “gives away” the bride to the groom. This is, of course, fantasy. It certainly is under our current jurisprudence- and it was even centuries ago, when men could use the full force of the… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom

@Tom
“Women are attracted to men who are in control of their world, and outcome-independence is 1 way to convey that.”

Just thinking about this…

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy I mean, of all people… You don’t think that married guys struggle with depression? You don’t think that perfectly good men might have a moment of weakness? My depression is my responsibility. I’ve lost women because of it. I’ve lost jobs because of it. I’ve lost friendships because of it. It is my responsibility to deal with and fix the problem if I want to prevent those losses. You want me to hand other dudes a pass on that responsibility that I’ve never gotten? That’s the definition of entitlement. Lemme get a tiny little violin to play you a… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@Tom

How about this?

@Blaximus

If you’re going to call me out for a pussy for bemoaning my current situation at least you could actually direct your comment to the person it was clearly meant for. That indirect shit is very. “Bitch-like”

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

rugby11ljh ,

Yes, there is a lot to think about in that statement, isn’t there.

At the most basic level- a guy who’s not willing to risk losing something in order to obtain his required outcome, has already ceded control of that thing to someone else.

But display of fear is only 1 aspect of it. There’s more. But fear is a mega-turnoff for women.

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

Andy- high-five*!

Soon the Force will be strong with you, young Padawan.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“It is my responsibility to deal with and fix the problem if I want to prevent those losses. You want me to hand other dudes a pass on that responsibility that I’ve never gotten? ” @Sun Okay, let me throw this situation out there: You are at a bar and your best friend’s wife is flirting with you right in front of him. She wants to fuck you. What do you do? You know what I would do? I’d quietly tell her to fuck off. Why? Because I respect my fucking friend. I see no reason that I shouldn’t give… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“I’d respect him enough to tell him the truth.”

Seems like the PUA’s out there don’t seem to be too high on letting the husbands know that they’re fucking their wives.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy You’ve just proven you don’t even read my responses to you. To quote myself: The only place I don’t go is a friend’s relationship, and even then that’s because their friendship and trust is more valuable than pussy to me in the long run. Obviously, a couple of my friends in the past did not feel the same way unfortunately. That’s the power of poon. Nice try, but your example fails because you don’t read. As for why you shouldn’t respect other guys that aren’t your friends: they are your competition for mates. It’s nothing personal, it’s just about… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy

And for the record, yeah my response to that actual scenario was a lot like Rollo’s. I’ve had one friend’s wife hit on me way back when they were engaged and she was angry at him. Their marriage has been a fucking disaster despite my warning to him, but I’ve kept myself out of the mess.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“As for why you shouldn’t respect other guys that aren’t your friends: they are your competition for mates. It’s nothing personal, it’s just about serving your own self-interests first.”

Good God… It’s not like Every Single Hot Chick out there is married!

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy

Good God… It’s not like Every Single Hot Chick out there is married!

Argument through hyperbole? Really? You’re going to twist my words that way? You think I’m saying I specifically hunt out chicks with a husband?

Seriously, think before you type. You sound like a hysterical woman looking for indignation.

IAS
IAS
5 years ago

Alphas aren’t necessarily positive role models, neither are PUAs (many of which aren’t even really alphas in my opinion). But they aren’t raping women. Best case scenario is PUA cold approaches the wife. If she responds to a random in such a “day game” situation and follows through that says a lot. Probably more common is this happens in a GNO situation, if she is actively going out to clubs. In some instances they don’t even know the women they sleep with are married, or only find out later. Not that many would care. There is a funny (yet sad)… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

If she responds to a random in such a “day game” situation and follows through that says a lot.

This. It is clear to me every time a guy’s wife or girlfriend responds extremely quickly and positively to me that their relationship was already over long before I came in to the picture.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Andy, …….well that escalated quickly. You’re defensive, not open to wisdom of other guys that have gone before to the places you are currently treading in the game of life. You just completely failed a group of guys’ shit test. You fail to understand how what Blaximus said is helpful to you. (it is plain as day to me, it’s truth that hurts) You fail to understand that the current time you are going through is one of the easiest times of parenthood for you and your wife. Not the hardest. And how you set the tone now makes all… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago
Reply to  SJF

@Tom https://muse.jhu.edu/books/9781610755214 Every time I suffer it’s because I refuse the burden to perform. I cannot help but thank Rollo for parenting me in a way I lacked and eventually let sink in. All my fears come from an aversion to the most primal parts of my masculine biological makeup. I deny my man hold which was the root fear of my blue pill life. Women always know when you lack the confidence to use game and perform for them. They always know. On a biological level they despise you in my case me for not learning better ways to… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

Andy, when you said: November 24th, 2015 at 11:58 am ‘“I’d respect him enough to tell him the truth.” Seems like the PUA’s out there don’t seem to be too high on letting the husbands know that they’re fucking their wives.’ Firstly, a truly successful seducer never kisses and tells … Ever! An important part of Red Pill awareness is knowing about the double standard: Women can, and will, gossip about you and your performance in bed- but you *never* talk about your time in bed with *any* woman. Secondly, don’t conflate facts with “the Truth” You or someone else… Read more »

Tom
Tom
5 years ago

Shit, rugby11ljh ,

Props to you man!

Guys changing their lives in the way you are is what motivates me to stay involved in the Red Pill world.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@Sun “You think I’m saying I specifically hunt out chicks with a husband?” Sigh… I’m saying that you can get laid without fucking married chicks. @SJF “.well that escalated quickly. You’re defensive” I’m not defensive. I’m frustrated you guys won’t admit that I have an argument. “You just completely failed a group of guys’ shit test.” How so? ” not open to wisdom of other guys that have gone before to the places you are currently treading in the game of life.” Look. I’ve said this before, but I don’t take anything at face value. I want you guys to… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@Tom

““The Truth” is: that she’s lost her attraction for him, and he’s facing one of the biggest challenges of a lifetime.”

I’m not sold that women can only be attracted to one man at a time. And just because some dude is in Abu Dhabi for 14 months doesn’t mean his wife isn’t attracted to him anymore.

“While simultaneously bringing the wrath of Odin down upon the head of the Other Man.”

Okay, so… Kill the man that fucks your wife… But go ahead and fuck other guys wives as much as you want…

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“You just completely failed a group of guys’ shit test.” How so? How so is that you’re frustrated and it shows. You’re losing your composure in writing. The same way your wife can intuit your not passing a shit test in real life, I, we, can sense that you are emotionally not passing the red pill litmus test on the comments thread here. You won’t let your ego go in the line of discussion. I admit you have an argument. Problem is your argument is coated with a sticky blue pill goo. “Look dude. You’re the only one saying that… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@SJF “You won’t let your ego go in the line of discussion.” ?? My point that I respect my fellow married man? That’s ego? I feel strongly about it because I don’t view other married guys as my competition. I view them as brothers sticking it out in a less than optimal situation. Am I seriously the only person that thinks this way or am I the only person that has the balls to argue for it? Does passion = ego? “Problem is your argument is coated with a sticky blue pill goo.” I still don’t get why it’s blue… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy I’m saying that you can get laid without fucking married chicks. You’re ignorant and ego invested in your view. Have you completely fucking missed the part where chicks don’t necessarily let you know? It’s impossible to be sure you’re avoiding it even if you care. Utterly impossible. Additionally, where I am fat chicks are 70% or so of the population, leaving 30% not fat. Of that probably 25% are attractive. That leaves you with 7-8% of women in the population are attractive. About 1 in 15 at best are an HB6 or above. There’s 50k more men than women… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Andy
November 24th, 2015 at 1:48 pm

I don’t have more time for this now, but didn’t want to let you hanging. The answer(s) to your questions is No……….

But you are asking the wrong questions.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@Sun “Have you completely fucking missed the part where chicks don’t necessarily let you know?” I don’t have a problem with it in all cases. I get that it’s a gray area. I certainly don’t blame you if you don’t know about it. I also get that its hard to say no when she’s ready to go. I’m not trying to advocate for some impossible ideal where nobody fucks married chicks. My point is that you shouldn’t automatically assume that the husband is a worthless POS that deserves to be cheated on. There may be external circumstances on his end,… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge guys-fucking-my-wife?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.

Neo: Okey dokey… free my mind. Right, no problem, free my mind, free my mind, no problem, right…

[talking to the unconscious Morpheus]
Cypher: If you’d told us the truth, we would’ve told you to shove that red pill right up your ass.

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“My point is that you shouldn’t automatically assume that the husband is a worthless POS that deserves to be cheated on. There may be external circumstances on his end, and/or extreme levels of entitlement on her end.”

I thought like that 20 years ago. Now I know that no one gives a shit about you-the-husband’s excuses. Hypergamy certainly doesn’t care.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy No, that’s not what you’ve argued. You’ve argued that I’m honorbound not to do it. Or that I should feel some kind of guilt/shame over it. Or that I’m under some responsibility to tell the guy. Or that I have to make sure his marriage will go OK for him. Or that it’s totally not his fault that he failed to live up to his burden of performance. Or that I can get laid without fucking married chicks. At no point did I say or imply he’s a worthless piece of shit. Doesn’t change if he’s failed to live… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

I would point out that it may be the husband who effectively bailed on the relationship, by choosing not to cater to that particular woman’s definition of his burden of performance.

You cannot escape the burden of performance, that is endemic to life (if you don’t work, you die), but with RP awareness you can choose how to direct it.

She could be out there desperately looking for a branch to swing to because she knows she’s already been nexted.

Chump No More
Chump No More
5 years ago

@Andy
” Am I seriously the only person that thinks this way or am I the only person that has the balls to argue for it? Does passion = ego?”

Of course, you’re not. I’m a believer in the Buddhist version of the Golden Rule… “Do not do to others that which you would not wish done to yourself”.

That said, it would be BP to believe that others share in your value system. A RP aware man understands his competition (whether it’s hypergamy or polygyny) and that nothing in life is guaranteed,

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“You’ve argued that I’m honorbound not to do it. ” Not necessarily, but yeah I’d give it a second thought. Especially if you’re navigating through a lot of ASD and/or LMR. “At no point did I say or imply he’s a worthless piece of shit. Doesn’t change if he’s failed to live up to his burden of performance.” Okay, I feel like I’ve given some pretty good worst case scenarios here. So the guy in Afghanistan for 14 months. Fighting in Germany or the South Pacific for 2 years… Not living up to his burden of performance in your mind?… Read more »

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“That said, it would be BP to believe that others share in your value system. A RP aware man understands his competition (whether it’s hypergamy or polygyny) and that nothing in life is guaranteed,”

I get that, and I get that everyone thinks that this is about me because I care about it. I doubt there is anything I could say to change their minds, so I won’t say anything.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Hey everybody. My my my, lively discussion…lol. Shout out to SJF, Sun, Tom and IAS. @Andy, ” But I want you to know that I say this with 100% complete sincerity, from the bottom of my heart… Go fuck yourself.” Lol. If I could Go fuck myself, I would because I am awesome in the sack. @SJF ” You fail to understand that the current time you are going through is one of the easiest times of parenthood for you and your wife. Not the hardest. And how you set the tone now makes all the difference in your world… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy You missed my point: they give no thought to me. There is no concern for me. Some of them are married to women they convinced to bail on me. (No really. It’s happened twice.) Why am I supposed to give thought to them? Don’t give me some “it’s society” cop out. Why am I supposed to give two shits about them? They have no concern for or obligation to help me get laid or find a good LTR, nor do I think they should. But if that’s the case, why is it my responsibility to watch out for their… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Not living up to his burden of performance in your mind?”

She can get a check from Social Services easier than she can get one from a husband stationed abroad. She can use it to hire a lawn guy.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about society, that’s your concern. If you care over much about society, then yes, that is not living up to your burden of performance to her.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

kfg

” Hypergamy doesn’t care about society, that’s your concern. If you care over much about society, then yes, that is not living up to your burden of performance to her.”

Troof.

The time for looking to society has passed. The cavalry ain’t coming from society. Disney World is still open though.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy As for this piss poor piece of arguing: Okay, I feel like I’ve given some pretty good worst case scenarios here. So the guy in Afghanistan for 14 months. Fighting in Germany or the South Pacific for 2 years… Not living up to his burden of performance in your mind? What the fuck are you doing getting married if you’re active duty military? Like the wife running out on the away soldier husband is such a trope now Uncle Sam might as well give you a pamphlet entitled “Why You’re Making A Huge Fucking Mistake” the moment they hear… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

A man was having a beer at the neighborhood bar when the bar tender told him : I can’t believe you’re enjoying your beer while your wife is fucking your best friend right now! The man, grabs a knife and runs home. Ten minutes later, he comes back to the bar , gives back the knife and continue nursing his beer . The bar tender was bewildered, he asks the man : What happened? The man says : nothing happened, I looked in through the bedroom window and the guy who was fucking my wife, wasn’t my best friend.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@keyser

Christ, I forgot about that joke. Love that one.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

I make a distinction between society and civilization. Society is the realm of women. Civilization the realm of men. You can think of it as the dining room vs. the board room. Civilization, as I have known it, is already dead, the body just hasn’t had time to fall over yet. I do my best to preserve a small enclave of the culture I once knew, but am fully aware that I do so strictly for my own comfort. When the body finally hits the ground, well, I am prepared for that sort of life as well. I’ll even enjoy… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago
Reply to  kfg

@kfg
“Civilization the realm of men. You can think of it as the dining room vs. the board room.

Civilization, as I have known it, is already dead, the body just hasn’t had time to fall over yet.”

Death I find in the presence of man is confronted with honor courage and mastery. Without it it’s as if society has taken over

“Society is the realm of women.”
Holy hell your right.

http://www.bibliotecadigital.ufmg.br/dspace/bitstream/handle/1843/ECAP-7QUHPK/diss_newrev_apr2009mai2009.pdf?sequence=1

I find many old friends would agree who are no longer here to speak about in human form

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
5 years ago

SJF
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6x-mjqsLR6c
A lot of change comes from self reflection as well as feedback

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

Name ONE fucking way that society looks out for us single guys that means married guys have got our back when it comes to women. ONE.

http://www.therationalmale.com

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

Rollo is a counter-revolutionary. From the perspective of society, anti-social.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago
Andy
Andy
5 years ago

What the fuck are you doing getting married if you’re active duty military?

Totally agree. Huge mistake. Made with zero knowledge of hypergamy. You on the other hand are equipped with the full knowledge of hypergamy.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy

Bullshit. Funny thing is that I knew you’d try that one. Try again, cupcake.

You on the other hand are equipped with the full knowledge of hypergamy.

And I intend to use it to my advantage. Sounds like he’d better learn and do the same. That’s on him though.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

Meanwhile, as if on cue, married chick that I fucked a while back just messaged me out of the blue after seeing me on the motorcycle around town. She’s apparently with some new guy (her second choice when I wouldn’t commit) she’s claiming to be exclusive with, but wants my attention whenever she sees me.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

“And I intend to use it to my advantage. Sounds like he’d better learn and do the same. That’s on him though.”

Okay, so that’s the conclusion that we’re coming to? The wife of a blue pill beta deployed serviceman is ethically fair game… This, to me, is an issue of male honor that is in DIRECT opposition to the FI.

This is just sad to me. I’ve lost a little bit of respect for a lot people.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Life ain’t fair or honorable.

All women are fair game. They love it that way.

Blaximus
Blaximus
5 years ago

Back in the day, guys would hit on my wife while she was 6 months pregnant. It’s not relevant what the ” guy ” does, it’s relevant what the married woman does. Don’t complain about the ethics of a situation. Deal with the facts on the ground, always. Anything else is just dreaming. I get all that you’re saying, but it’s a bit delusional because things aren’t how you’d like them to be, they are how they are. Yin and Yang. Good and Bad. When you run up against bad, it’s useless to wish it were different. In the land… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Strength, Courage and Mastery. Project that shit among men. Honor among men. From Jack Donovan’s “Way of Men”: The idea of honor shines an ancient light so warm and golden that everyone wants to stand in it. This is the most natural desire in the world, because honor in its most inclusive sense is esteem, respect and status. To be honored is to be respected by one’s peers. Thomas Hobbes wrote in Leviathan that what was honorable was, “whatsoever possession, action, or quality, is an argument and a signe of Power.” Hobbes believed that honor existed in a free market,… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Understanding Dishonor Part of the reason that honor is a virtue rather than merely a state of affairs is that showing concern for the respect of your peers is a show of loyalty and indication of belonging—of being us rather than them. It is a show of deference. Hobbes noted that men honored each other by seeking each other’s counsel and by imitating each other. Caring about what the men around you think of you is a show of respect, and conversely, not caring what other men think of you is a sign of disrespect. In a survival band, it… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Andy

I’ve lost a little bit of respect for a lot people.

You say that as though I give a fuck about your respect. As though you personally matter to me. PROTIP: You don’t.

I’m here to achieve my goals. Your respect isn’t one of them. Get over yourself. You’re just not that important to anyone in the end.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
5 years ago

Well, apparently I’ve been missing out on the fun thread.

I’ve not read most of this last page, but my general thought is that maybe we haven’t figured out what inspires a woman’s loyalty, and what that loyalty entails, enough yet to make some (pretty harsh) value judgements. There will be blood before we fully grasp it.

Maybe more nuanced thoughts if I get around to reading all of this 😉

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

………but my general thought is that maybe we haven’t figured out what inspires a woman’s loyalty, and what that loyalty entails, enough yet to make some (pretty harsh) value judgements. There will be blood before we fully grasp it. Watch the video at the beginning of this essay: http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/18/the-honor-system/ Man Up or Shut Up – The Male Catch 22 One of the primary way’s Honor is used against men is in the feminized perpetuation of traditionally masculine expectations when it’s convenient, while simultaneously expecting egalitarian gender parity when it’s convenient. For the past 60 years feminization has built in the… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

@Forge

TL;DR: Broknights tut and shame anyone not agreeing with their ego invested BP soaked opinion. Sun Wukong drops the mic.

Roused
Roused
5 years ago

This past week I was called a womanizer, I took it as a compliment. Especially liked the label as it came from a man who allowed his wife to chop off his balls and is spineless. Funny thing about that is I told my gf about all this and it got her incredibly turned on and we fucked hard. Emptied the tank as Blax would say. Working on game has been some hits and misses, learning a lot but man oh man is it tricky if one doesn’t practice often. I did get the phone # of the ex-cheerleader hottie… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Sun Wukong

Sun Wukong drops the mic.

I, for one, would sure appreciate it if you would hurry up and get un-depressed, pick up the mic./headphones and have another Sun Wukong roundtable session.

Your roundtable (Man-table) discussions were a game changer and tipping point for me in my life. I want to thank you for that.

And if you hurry up, while Andy is still butthurt, he won’t want to join in.

Andy
Andy
5 years ago

@Blaximus “It’s a bit delusional because things aren’t how you’d like them to be, they are how they are.” But I’m not talking about “most guys.” I’m talking about men. Here. Men that understand women not going to bat for blue pill men that DON’T understand women. Men that I have respect for. But now, a little bit less respect. I value your opinions a little bit less. I don’t care that you don’t care, but I’m going to tell you anyway. @Sun “I’m here to achieve my goals. Your respect isn’t one of them. Get over yourself. You’re just… Read more »

mersonia
5 years ago

@Andy Being a broknight online isn’t worth much. Labels don’t mean anything online anyways

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

“Look, you guys clearly think that this is about me.” It is about you Andy. It’s not about some guy fucking a blue-pill man wife (that point is irrelevant). The quotes weren’t directed to you, but about a man’s honor among men in general. It is about you being better at being a man. The record clearly states that Blaximus and I are monogamous and wouldn’t fuck a married man’s wife (and Sun is currently too scared of doing that). The record clearly states that if we don’t have a personal investment in that cuckolded guy, we don’t care. We’re… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
5 years ago

And if you hurry up, while Andy is still butthurt, he won’t want to join in.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/051/724/4UTEYIX2U4UDZ4HTAEKBRLOCHFB6COKE.jpeg

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

Blaximus 90% of people you meet will have gone through some really bad stuff in life. No one walks around talking about awful shit that they’ve had to deal with. Truth. And let’s be real, anyone who does go around talking about all the awful stuff they’ve had to deal with is pretty tedious after a short while. It’s like this, “Yeah, that’s rough. That’s bad. What are you going about it?” I can’t say enough good things about Biology of Desire. Wish I’d had that book 15 years back, when I knew some alcoholics. But I do have it… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
5 years ago

Don’t wish it were easier. Wish you were better.

If a woman said this, it would be called “Hamstering.”

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

Damn, that’s a long ass list of comments to catch up on. Finally read most of everything though. @YaReally If you’re willing, Id like to hit you up for some perspective later. All of my experiences have shown me that being fat is just a huge motherfucking hurdle. I’m curious as to whether you got your first sexual experiences while still being fat, or if fatness came after your first kiss and lay. @Andy It sounds to me as if you just haven’t been burned enough times by blue pill guys. From what you’re saying, it sounds like you just… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

@Andy, et al

Here is an old post of Rollo’s in case you need to start mate guarding:

http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/17/boundaries/

“The only person who’s behavior you can control is your own, but that behavior can have a significant impact on the behaviors of others.”

YaReally
5 years ago

@Pellaeon “If you’re willing, Id like to hit you up for some perspective later. All of my experiences have shown me that being fat is just a huge motherfucking hurdle. I’m curious as to whether you got your first sexual experiences while still being fat, or if fatness came after your first kiss and lay.” I’d call it chubby more than fat…till I see photos of myself and see my gross double chin lol But I’m not like 300lbs fat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7PAYhmoKkA RSDTyler was fat for a few years and says he didn’t even realize he was fat, he thought he… Read more »

YaReally
5 years ago

@Pellaeon Think of it this way. If you meet some smokin hot girl, tits out to here, ass you can bounce a quarter off etc. and she has kind of a lame personality and works at McDonald’s, would you still fuck her? Some guys might not but for the most part most guys will. Would it be NICE if she had an amazing personality and impressive career on top of that body? Sure…although if you’re just keeping her as a fuckbuddy you might not even really care because the main thing that attracts you to her and gives you a… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Yareally : Would it be NICE if you were also a 6’4″ jacked He-Man? Ya, sure…

Don’t you love Freudian slips. But, then again, according to Yareally, all 6’4 jacked men have no game and can’t dominate women.

Ps,
6’4 jacked men don’t even bother to approach women, women approach them.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
5 years ago

I know an early 20’s man who is 6’4″ tall, and rather fit – he spent the summer working outside doing semi skilled labor that required strength. Women don’t seem to approach him, he’s getting a little better about approaching them. I’m coaching him a bit from time to time.

His height works against him with women under 5’8″ or so, it appears to me.

Pellaeon
Pellaeon
5 years ago

@yareally Thanks that was really helpful, particularly the fat suit video. 99% of the time it’s all in your head, but it comes through in your subcomms and the girls are pinging off you to know how to feel so when you feel insecure about something the girl thinks “ok if he’s insecure about it then it must be something to be insecure about” and it becomes a big deal. Is it GOOD to lose the weight and get in shape? Ya, sure, but more for health reasons (easier to bang girls, better to keep yourself in long-term shape, etc)… Read more »

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

@anonymous,
The Fox Without
a Tail

It happened that a Fox caught its tail in a trap, and in struggling to release himself lost all of it but the stump.

At first he was ashamed to show himself among his fellow foxes. But at last he determined to put a bolder face upon his misfortune, and summoned all the foxes to a general meeting to consider a proposal which he had to place before them.

When they had assembled together the Fox proposed that they should all do away with their tails.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

Yareally : “Did cavemen all look like the guys in 300? Or did they just look like various masses of flesh that could dominantly toss a cavewoman around by the hair and fuck her brains out”

Back in the day of the cavemen, the strong big cavemen, DOMINATED the little cavemen and women(women gravitated towards them). It was : the survival of the finest.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
5 years ago

@anonymous,
I know a lot of early 20’s men who is 5’6″ tall, and not fit – they spent the summer working outside doing semi skilled labor that required no strength. Women don’t seem to approach them, they’re getting a little better about approaching them. I’m coaching them a bit from time to time.

Their height works against them with women under 5’8″ or so, it appears to me.

Nick
Nick
5 years ago

From the way I see things, Rollo himself is a classic traditionalist beta male. This is from the limited knowledge I have about him of course. I was listening to an interview he did with a dude. In the interview he stated that his wife EXPECTS him to take the lead and fufill the masculine role. They were talking about frame. She expects him to hold frame. So by my books that means shes actually the one in control. He handles the responsibilities and the ‘manly’ things. His relationship is still gynocentric in nature, its just more traditional where he… Read more »

SJF
SJF
5 years ago

Hey Nick,

http://lewamack.com/Facebook/Pics/Confused-Surprised-Shocked-Q/Confused-animated-Don_Adams-Get_Smart-maxwell_smart__confused.gif

The old “I have extremely limited knowledge but I’ll NEG the host of this blog trick” eh? Good luck with that.

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“Theres a youtube channel called ‘Alex on Life’ . . .”

Yes, there is.

Liz
Liz
5 years ago

“What the fuck are you doing getting married if you’re active duty military?” A lot of people are married BEFORE they go into the military. The military is (often) a good and honest means of taking care of one’s family. The pay isn’t great, for quite a while, but there’s health insurance and the commissary where food is typically a little cheaper at least. And there’s the promise of education benefits. Then there are the folks who sign on and things change…which is easy to happen when the initial commitment is nine or ten years (which it is for certain… Read more »

kfg
kfg
5 years ago

“. . . if someone can smooth talk a wife into betrayal of one’s husband . . .”

. . . that someone is the wife.

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