Neofemininity

Left: A child shows off his favorite nightgown. Right: Throughout the weekend make-up is applied, removed and reapplied and wardrobe change is constant.

I’ll admit my reluctance to address anything written by Kevin Powell, but as his most recent CNN pandering to the Feminine Imperative was the Twitter topic du jour in the manosphere this week I thought I’d make a perfunctory stab at it. I’m reluctant to do so because in doing a take-down article I’ll only be preaching to the choir and revisiting many well established topics I’ve covered on The Rational Male for years now.

What convinced me was a conversation I had with Mrs. Tomassi while walking my greyhounds this week. She asked me, “What the hell is wrong with boys these days? The all have no balls. It’s like they want to be girls or something.” We’ve had this discussion before. It usually gets brought up after she’s heard some story about the boys at my daughter’s high school or she sees it first-hand at a football game or some other event.

“Pretty soon, everyone is going to be a woman. Look at Bruce Jenner, “Woman of the Year”?! In the next ten years everyone will be a woman.”

I told her I think ten years might be too long.

When I read male-apologetics like Kevin Powell’s tribute to his own feminine ‘transitioning’ and his efforts at identifying and qualifying to be considered a more ‘perfected man’ in the terms set for him by a feminine-primary social order, it’s not hard to believe that social switch is right around the corner.

A Crisis of Manhood

Masculinity in “crisis” is a hot seller for click-bait articles these days. Women embrace the meme because it offers the tacit prospect of wrangling men into a more definitive control by the Feminine Imperative. Like all popular characterization of conventional masculinity, men have a problem and the cure is to become more like women.

Average men, the ones who make it their sexual strategy to better identify with the feminine, get behind the meme because it offers an easy opportunity to present themselves as the ‘evolved’, not-like-other-guys men they’ve been conditioned to believe women will sexually respond to favorably. Embracing this men-as-problem meme also offers them the opportunity to passively compete intrasexually with the conventionally masculine men then would otherwise never engage.

Before I dig into Powell’s article here I think it’s important to revisit my essay about Vulnerability. Powell’s ego is invested in the ‘strength in weakness’ theme his feminine conditioning has taught him is ennobling and as you read through his pleas for a more feminine-perfected social order he’ll return to it often.

From Vulnerability:

For the greater part of men’s upbringing and socialization they are taught that a conventional masculine identity is in fact a fundamentally male weakness that only women have a unique ‘cure’ for. It’s a widely accepted manosphere fact that over the past 60 or so years, conventional masculinity has become a point of ridicule, an anachronism, and every media form from then to now has made a concerted effort to parody and disqualify that masculinity. Men are portrayed as buffoons for attempting to accomplish female-specific roles, but also as “ridiculous men” for playing the conventional ‘macho’ role of masculinity. In both instances, the problems their inadequate maleness creates are only solved by the application of uniquely female talents and intuition.

Perhaps more damaging though is the effort the Feminine Imperative has made in convincing generations of men that masculinity and its expressions (of any kind) is an act, a front, not the real man behind the mask of masculinity that’s already been predetermined by his feminine-primary upbringing.

Women who lack any living experience of the male condition have the calculated temerity to define for men what they should consider manhood – from a feminine-primary context. This is why men’s preconception of vulnerability being a sign of strength is fundamentally flawed. Their concept of vulnerability stems from a feminine pretext.

Masculinity and vulnerability are defined by a female-correct concept of what should best serve the Feminine Imperative. That feminine defined masculinity (tough-guy ridiculousness) feeds the need for defining vulnerability as a strength – roll over, show your belly and capitulate to that feminine definition of masculinity – and the cycle perpetuates itself.

[…]Men are ridiculous posers. Men are socialized to wear masks to hide what the Feminine Imperative has decided is their true natures (they’re really girls wearing boy masks). Men’s problems extend from their inability to properly emote like women, and once they are raised better (by women and men who comply with the Feminine Imperative) they can cease being “tough” and get along better with women. That’s the real strength that comes from men’s feminized concept of vulnerability – compliance with the Feminine Imperative.

[…]It’s indictment of the definers of what masculinity ought to be that they still characterize modern masculinity (based on the ‘feels’) as being problematic when for generations our feminine-primary social order has conditioned men to associate that masculinity in as feminine-beneficial a context as women would want.

They still rely on an outdated formula which presumes the male experience is inferior, a sham, in comparison to the female experience, and then presumes to know what the male experience really is and offers feminine-primary solutions for it.

It’s important to understand the machinations in which the Feminine Imperative will define masculinity for men. In order to maintain social preeminence the Feminine Imperative must keep men perpetually confused about what masculinity really is. This is precisely why the “crisis” of masculinity will, deliberately, never be solved to the satisfaction of the imperative. To solve the ‘crisis’ would be to deny the Feminine Imperative a method of ever changing, fluid control over men.

Tail Chasing

Thus we get inquisitive articles or mandatory gatherings to discuss “what is manhood?” In a state of feminine social primacy men discussing new definitions of masculinity is always a proposition of men chasing their own tails, but the ambiguity of that question is a calculated one.

Men are encouraged to continually attempt to answer “what is manhood?”, but the touchy-feely equalist appropriate answer is never one defined by the men asking it; the answer is always provided to them and this is always “whatever serves women the best”. Their confused state is a deliberate perpetual one.

As I stated in Vulnerability the narrative of the Feminine Imperative about masculinity is one that’s based falsehoods. If men define masculinity for themselves, and that definition serves men’s exclusive interests it is equated with posing or a front men falsely wear to mask the real masculinity that feminine primacy has ordained as legitimate.

So even when men collectively compare notes and prioritize their needs and their sexual strategy in the context of a legitimate definition of masculinity, the social narrative of feminism and feminine primacy readily disqualifies it as a being a macho bravado worn by men to cover their real vulnerable sensitive feminine-corrected egos provided for them by the imperative.

One of the ways of determining whether the propaganda you’ve dropped from the planes is sinking into the general populace is that your language, your narrative and your public relations material is willfully being professed by the people you hope to conquer. To say Powell is a Vichy Male wouldn’t do his obliviousness to being so credit. Powell is a testament to the degree to which feminine-primary, feminine-correct thought has saturated into men confused about their own masculinity, and the feminine correct definitions of it he’s ready to evangelize.

Neofemininity

Powell’s ego-investment in his feminine-defined masculinity is glaringly apparent.  To attack his belief is to attack his personality, but it’s important to note that his evangelizing reveals his obliviousness to his Blue Pill conditioning. Powell isn’t making a case for a ‘healthier masculinity’; he’s advocating for men adopting a neo-femininity in place of conventional masculinity. Powell is essentially advocating men become more perfected women and renaming that state “masculinity”.

I knew the guys were not comfortable with these mandatory gatherings, so I started each with a simple question:
What is a man?

Sighs of relief and phrases such as “leader,” “protector,” “caretaker,” “responsible,” “head of the house” fell from their mouths. Each session, I told them that they had just described my single mother and most women I’ve encountered in my life. These young men would grow quiet.

Powell kicks things off here with the blank-slate “men and women are functional equals” I described in Hypergamy Knows Best. This is the same “women are just as good at fathering as any man could be” rationale that reinforces men’s superfluousness with women. However, in doing so he sets the stage for defining masculinity in neo-feminine terms.

I grew up as most heterosexual boys did: I played every sport possible. I learned early on the rite-of-passage of seeing girls as sexual objects, as playthings, as anything except my equal. I fought because boys were taught to fight, be rough, antagonistic, to never show weakness, not even to cry, at least not in public. I digested every kind of pop cultural icon one could name, on television, in movies, in books, in my beloved hip-hop culture, who represented the mighty male figure that armies of us were instructed we must become.

This behavior led to catastrophic results for me. I had no clue how to express a balance of emotions for many years: It was either thunderous silence or raw explosions of rage. I did not know how to give love to myself or women and girls, and by the time I got to college, I merely did what other young males on my campus did: I had sex as casually as I slipped on my jeans and sneakers, and often did not give much thought to the woman on the receiving end. And I eventually pushed a girlfriend, post-college, into a bathroom door as we were arguing, the culmination of years of backward and very warped definitions of manhood imprisoned in pain and trauma.

Powell attempts to frame his case for a neo-feminine definition of masculinity in what are now very clichéd, very expected personal vignettes. It follows the Script.

We have the ostensibly ‘tough’ boy who grew up to be so thanks to a comically stereotypically male acculturation that taught him how to adapt and survive in his environment, but all of which stunted his capacity to balance his emotions. Emotional expression and an overemphasis on understanding emotion (in favor of reason) in men is the hallmark of a social narrative that prioritizes the feminine as the correct social context.

The story continues as expected. The kid who had no positive model of masculinity presented to him has an epiphany, renounces his unhealthy masculinity and adopts a non-toxic feminine-defined ‘healthy masculinity’ that prioritizes women under the auspices of “equality”. Most of his corrupted upbringing of course being the fallout from not having his superfluous father around to instruct him. My guess is Mom wasn’t quite the ‘equal’ of being the man he hoped to equate her with earlier.

Just as the feminist movement in America has challenged male domination in every form, a men’s movement is needed now more than ever before. The movement must be inclusive of males of all ages and backgrounds, rooted in peace, love and healthy definitions of manhood that include viewing women and girls as our equals. It should be a movement that is not in opposition to women, not trying to return to the days of “the rugged man,” but one that makes room for every kind of man possible (including men on the LGBTQ spectrum), where we can be vulnerable, emotionally available, truly free.

This is the crux of Powell’s misinformation. The ideal ‘masculinity’ in Powell’s estimate isn’t one of rugged individualism, but rather one that is more feminine-corrected; one in which a believes that society has progressed to a point where his personal vulnerabilities and emotionalism will not only be appreciated, but a source of intersexual attraction. His ideal simply amounts to a common plea for men to identify with women so thoroughly that they answer the question “what is a man?” with “a better woman.”

That Powell subscribes to egalitarian equalism is a given here, but what he needs to truly grasp is that men and women are not, and never have been functional equals. It’s ironic that he should describe his single mother ‘as a man’ and then go on to tell the story of his misspent masculine youth – he makes the case for necessary complentarianism without even realizing it. While I do agree about the necessity of understanding individuals other than ourselves, Powell never makes the connection that it is men upon whom the onus of understanding women always falls. You will never read deep soul searching testimonials like this from women who look to redefine femininity in ways that better accommodate the emotional health of men.

Caricatures of Masculinity

I undertook this post today because of a story I heard on NPR recently. It was about a tribe of Native Americans (I believe in Montana) who were struggling to preserve their indigenous language. The problem was that most of its native speakers were dying out and there were less than six tribe members who still used the language.

During the late 1800s there was a program instituted by the government that made great, often cruel, efforts to assimilate these Indian children into western society. That meant forbidding them from speaking their native tongue and adopting an American social identity. Being young, the kids had little choice and not the same sense of ethnic belonging to really understand why their parents would resist this assimilation.

I think a similar dynamic has been in effect in western culture with regard to masculinity for over sixty years. It’s come full circle now to the point where ‘men’ like Powell only know the caricatured, ridiculous portrayals of conventional masculinity when they need a convenient straw man to blow down. It’s like Indian children seeing the grotesque cartoon parodies of people of their ethnicity in the movies or media; after the laughter and denigration they come to a point of self-loathing where they gladly embrace the new racial identity that’s prepared for them.

The point of Powell’s article was a plea to more thoroughly assimilate young men into a neo-feminine definition of masculinity. He believes that a re-education of boys would help avert more mass shootings by these same young men.  So invested is he in this narrative that the question of whether doubling-down on the re-education in feminine primacy already in place might in fact be the associative cause of these shootings, men’s 4-times higher rate of suicide or PTSD. This isn’t even an afterthought for him.

To Powell the only cure resides with women. To become more like women is masculinity to him. We will denigrate and admonish the overt sexualization of young girls, but when young boys wish to ‘transition’ into being girls themselves we praise them for it, we celebrate it. Feminine primacy consolidates power by replicating itself in men.

The primary reason I went to the effort of writing the Red Pill Parenting series was to help men stave off the total, ethnocidal-like destruction of any semblance of conventional masculinity by men like Powell bent on replacing it with ‘perfected’, male-embodied femininity. The problem isn’t one of boys adopting toxic masculinity, it’s the institutionalized gender-loathing re-education that Powell so desperately endorses. Neofemininity will be the realm of boys and men in tomorrow’s idealism.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Scribblerg
Scribblerg
6 years ago

Great convo on the male imperative but also am left not likening the equivalence. Women have a dualistic mating strategy and conceal it whereas male mating strategies are well known. Also to me the FI connotes something larger than mating strategy, in that it seems to be about pressing female privileges in many dimensions, under the guise of the general pedestalization of women. I’m not very interested in the concept of “MI” as I don’t think men press as hard for in group privileges as women do – there is a ton of science showing women have much higher ingroup… Read more »

lh
lh
6 years ago

The point of the MI isn’t to write out a political agenda or something, but to find a common ground of masculine interests so we don’t have to argue from a point of anti-FI. Too often we argue like “women do this, so we can do too”, which is weak. With a common MI in mind we can just say “men want this” without any further justification needed.

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

Men grow up thinking they will be appreciated for nice guy behaviors – what if all men were told from the outset exactly how women work.

This is basically my main goal to affect societal change. Women would be forced to actually offer us something other than their vagina.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Andy: He is applying Rule 4; make them live by their own rules until they choke on them. You have to remember that the “real” egalitarians are anything but, themselves. They think of themselves as a ruling class, that the rules they write aren’t to be applied to them, but administered by them. They are for the little people. Rule 4 itself is one of their own rules. @Scribbler: What men will do is fight and die for a very small number of buddies who have proven in trial by fire that they would do the same for them. Again,… Read more »

bob bitchin
bob bitchin
6 years ago

…all women have is a vagina.
The rest is BS and PR, aka a smokescreen.

I attended two top universities. I only remember ever hearing one women say something truly intelligent and insightful. All the serious intellectual discussiins I’ve had have been with other men.
Women are good for hanging out with, banging, child rearing and certain types of jobs. They are not leaders but followers. They prefer conformity over individuality because most have never had a serious thought let alone an original one in their life. If it were to occur their heads would explode.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Andy There are a ton of youtube videos of Terence McKenna giving talks. I have to warn you, this guy was “way out there”, however his talks were super entertaining in the sense that the guy just had such a florid pattern-seeking mind, that he draws all kinds of analogies across objective facts, the machinations of his own psyche, the mythic aspects of culture etc. etc. So even though he is so thought-provoking and entertaining to listen to, you really have to take what he says with a massive grain of salt. Anyway the basic idea about the masculine imperative… Read more »

teddj4g
teddj4g
6 years ago

Rollo – so maybe the MI is at its core about variety of sex. But it is clear men find value in clans and tribes, and perhaps early pair bonding was simply a move to quell dissention in the tribe. Men won’t work together with men they don’t trust, and once mates became property, it was essential to stop infighting amongst key tribe members.

Just spit balling, but it is pretty obvious that men are tribe/clan/pack creatures by nature.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

And the prime directive of reproduction is itself subliminal, expressing itself outwardly simply as, “Jeeeeeeeeezus, I want to fuck that. That’s all men need to fulfill the prime directive.

In many species, bears for instance, the male has no idea about reproduction at all. He gets the bang and wanders off. Job done.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

Does Paul want us to have a military at all? I won’t speak for him, and I don’t care that much about the whole issue. But it seems to me there’s a sizable minority in the US who believe that the government should put an end to its overseas military commitments in Germany, Japan etc. and radically downsize the armed forces. MRAs generally seem to belong to this group, so does the Alternative Right, the paleocons and other countercultural groups. Because no one who actually cares about the men under fire would want a woman covering their backsides and lifting… Read more »

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

Yeah, I think we have to consider the possibility that Paul Elam isn’t an “equalist” out of personal conviction but is so in a Machiavellian sense in order to progress the conversation.

That’s what I believe as well. The overall situation today is that women in the military enjoy the privileges that come with being a soldier (social status etc.) while pretty much avoiding all the potential sacrifice it entails. It’s the kind of hypocrisy MRAs are trying to draw attention to.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Tedd: Pair bonding is a mechanism of both parents being involved in child rearing. Birds do it. It was in place in our ancestors before we even evolved into the genus homo. But yes, since we are tribal animals, competition over mates could never be allowed to exceed a certain threshold, or the tribe would kill itself off. On the other hand, if the competition for mates is not intense enough, the tribe will grow weak and be subject to being killed off from outside. What is the essential difference between chimps and bonobos? Chimps live in close proximity to… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“This problem can easily be solved by putting servicewomen in separate all-female units, can’t it?”

Yes, as well as putting them out front.

Paul Elam is a social justice warrior. Whether he started out as one, or became the monster he is fighting really doesn’t matter. What is clear is that Paul Elam’s primary concern is Paul Elam and the the rest of us are the little people. He eats his own children.

Liz
Liz
6 years ago

“This problem can easily be solved by putting servicewomen in separate all-female units, can’t it?” That’s essentially how Israel does it. They put all of the combatant females in one battalion. I agree that would work better than forcing the men to work with them but doo you think fifty percent female combatants would win wars? There’s only a finite amount of resources and if 50 percent of those resources (training, equipment, and so forth) are essentially wasted is that a good use of money in the event of a national emergency on a level that would require nationwide conscription?… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@ScribblerG What you have been posting lately is excellent. Remind me to pick you over Andy for my fantasy post-apocalyptic team/tribe/gang. I like how you capitalized your avatar name. See how that changed your avatar symbol from a feminine orange-y color to a more handsome masculine color? I think you should capitalize the G at the end also. Men can raise their testosterone by simple posture and thinking, mental point of origin and mindset. Metaphorically capitalizing themselves. I think you are a good example of that. Well done. (although I know a saying that goes “well done is half begun”)… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

attended two top universities. I only remember ever hearing one women say something truly intelligent and insightful.

@bob
I meant more along the lines of assuming traditional gender roles.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Would that help morale? Would it be truly useful to expend human lives and lose equipment that way?”

No, as I have noted here a number of times, every vermin hunter knows that if you wish to kill off a population, kill the females.

” Is this an episode of South Park or are we discussing reality here?”

I find it harder to tell the difference every day.

Liz
Liz
6 years ago

“I find it harder to tell the difference every day.”

LOL! Me too. 😛
How true.
Going to go look at the fan fiction section of Kindle world now and figure out where the writing market is so I can (potentially) make myself useful in this new economy.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  Liz

@ScribblerG “How would men adapt if they knew this and were encouraged to serve their own needs instead of women’s and society’s?” The Brazil one was interesting. http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-brutal-tests-manhood-around-world.php http://www.loeser.us/examples/alexander.html http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/we-were-abandoned/ @Rollo Tommassi “It’s kind of ironic you mention Jack Donovan – a noted homosexual man –and his emphasis on tribalism among men. Donovan is a great man, and his insight into the nature of men ought to be required Red Pill reading, but you have to understand his prime directive isn’t reproducing.” I didn’t know that “That said, I think it should be noted that ONLY a woman could produce… Read more »

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

I’d say this, women with important skill sets could be required to serve. No reason a woman couldn’t be a combat/ air nurse or doctor, or something like that. They could also be trained pretty quickly and easily to do those types of jobs. But serve in combat? No. That’s either nihilistic or parody. Well, the Red Army did deploy women soldiers in frontline roles during WW2 as combat pilots, snipers, machine gunners, tank drivers, anti-tank artillery personnel etc. Apparently there weren’t any serious problems with their performance. On the other hand, they were all volunteers, not draftees. And the… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@rugby11ljh – that toptenz list is crazy, but the cool overall impression (except #1 maybe) is: manhood = exuberant aggression

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

” . . . in some parts of the world, becoming a real man is actually very simple. All he needs to do is participate in a certain initiation ritual . . . ”

As if the initiation ritual has nothing to do with demonstrating . . .

” . . . certain traits such as bravery, dignity, accountability, humility, and so much more.”

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

Thus their message is always run through the filter of whatever woman happens to be their public messenger. That pre-knowledge will then color the ideas and insights those men would otherwise open themselves to without the influence of a woman in that Male Space. I’m not getting the point. What is the male space you are referring to? The reality is that women vote these days. If anything is going to change we’re going to have to change their minds too. I don’t know why we can’t fight this fight from both grassroots and mainstream at the same time. Are… Read more »

Liz
Liz
6 years ago

HH: “Well, the Red Army did deploy women soldiers in frontline roles during WW2 as combat pilots, snipers, machine gunners, tank drivers, anti-tank artillery personnel etc. Apparently there weren’t any serious problems with their performance.” Truly? This is like saying the Russians were eating wallpaper paste so there must not have been any problems with the nutritional content or taste of wallpaper paste. And Stalin was a great leader…otherwise, why would they use him? For that matter, the Italians were awesome allies or else who would align themselves with them? And they had awesome leadership as well. Good grief HH.… Read more »

Craiger247
Craiger247
6 years ago

Rollo, yet another great article, I cannot tell you how much I look forward to your blog each week. In regards to Mr. Kevin Powell’s pathetic attempt at a so called view of masculinty, the statements he makes are boiler plate of what a feminist would “vomit”…Men are violent, angry, misguided, and if they act more like a woman, they would see the light. All these so called “masculine” men still think that if you “identify” with the feminists or the FI ideals, they will some how see it “your way” and you will be better man for it, plus… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

” . . . there must not have been any problems with the nutritional content or taste of wallpaper paste . . .” The principle difference between old school wallpaper paste (my grandfather was a paper hanger) and contemporary “food” is that we add “flavor enhancers,” bake it, put it in a cardboard box with fancy graphics and inflate the price 5000%. The Soviets used women to fight under the traditional conditions of women fighting – when the perimeter of men had been breached and they were desperate. The women fought as such women do, with desperation, like cornered cats.… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

I’m not in marketing, but couldn’t you capitalize on it with SEO? I see your Bitter Red Pill article 3rd and 5th on my google search for “the red pill” and “red pill” respectively. I found pretty much every other red pill site before this one. And this one is WAAAAYYYYY better than any of the others.

https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=the%20red%20pill

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Craiger247 – Yes, I agree, truth is it seems like bizarro world to me. You point – “Can you imagine any media outlet telling a woman how to be?” – That has been one of my big problems. I have fancied myself to be within my rights to tell certain women that they behave as if their own personal feelings are of primary importance in any circumstance, whereas in fact their feelings are almost never of primary importance in any circumstance. I have said this to women one way or the other in different contexts. The response is bad –… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

hysteria (n.) nervous disease, 1801, coined in medical Latin as an abstract noun from Greek hystera “womb,” from PIE *udtero-, variant of *udero- “abdomen, womb, stomach” (see uterus). Originally defined as a neurotic condition peculiar to women and thought to be caused by a dysfunction of the uterus. With abstract noun ending -ia. General sense of “unhealthy emotion or excitement” is by 1839.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@ kfg – on the hysteria we speak of, my sense is that hormones have a whole lot to do with this. What if we could put women in some sort of alternative reality machine, so they could experience what a testosteronized brain feels like (without actually having this negatively affect their physical being). Then maybe they would get it. Feelings are cool and all but I just want them to drop that lense enough to appreciate that there is more beyond that – the realm of the bigger picture, the realm of the seeking of the many perspectives so… Read more »

Craiger247
Craiger247
6 years ago

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/terry-crews-skipped-sex-90-days-marriage-article-1.2408346 Read, and shake your head at the FI littered all over this sad article.Poor Terry is blue pill beta, conditioning willing by the FI, so he is better loved by his wife. And you will notice, at no point in the article is his wife ever to blame for any of this, its all on Terry…And yes, its men “putting up a front to be loved”, those silly men, all macho for no good reason! His remedy for getting more sex is that he didn’t know her, that’s what the problem was all along! Thanks Terry, I feel relieved…talk… Read more »

teddj4g
teddj4g
6 years ago

KFG – my mistake using “pair bond” when I meant early marriage forms. Pair bonding is at the bio level, marriage and its other forms are the social side of the same coin, and I simply contend it probably was a male idea early on, then stolen by the FI.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Wild Man: “on the hysteria we speak of, my sense is that hormones have a whole lot to do with this.” Certainly. Although not literally the uterus, they were at least on the right track. “What if we could put women in some sort of alternative reality machine, so they could experience what a testosteronized brain feels like . . . ” If wishes were horses . . . @Tedd: “. . . I simply contend it probably was a male idea early on, then stolen by the FI.” That’s the position I took upthread. I’ll go a bit further… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

Thinking about this a bit more, I think a better way to describe what I was alluding to above is: 1) selfish faggot (by this I mean a feminized kind of man that is selfishly focused on his feelings) = narcissistically selfish 2) selfish masculine brute = egotistically selfish 3) healthy ideal man = unselfishly egotistical 4) bitch = selfishly narcissistic 5) cunt = egotistically selfish 6) healthy ideal woman = unselfishly narcissistic (yikes – is there even such a thing?) Notice what I am doing here. I putting myself in the 3rd category (yikes = condescending prick!). As well… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Or so goes the overall social discourse on these issues.”

The overall social discourse, which is in the hands of women, on these issues was constructed to deceive.

“How to we figure out what is right here (I mean the right way to see it)?”

Aristotle.

HopelessHypergamy
HopelessHypergamy
6 years ago

@Wild Man I’m still here. I just stopped speaking of my troubles then the discussion had run its course. I do have as much testosterone as an average to high man. I am still able to reproduce. I have a 3 year old, and I’m currently 8 weeks pregnant. When I was a teenager, an endocrinologist established that I would probably be fine with the naturally high testosterone because all my other hormones were normal. They thought I might need help conceiving later in life due to it, as if I had PCOS, but I had no trouble. I have… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

IliadsTangent said the following: ” Problem two: in a FI driven society, ninety percent of men will be celibate or close to it. No matter what buffers we men use to define ourselves as “Alpha”, when it comes to sex it is women who decide that metric-again as an instinctual process. The basics of what triggers Alpha sexual attraction (and not financial/sexual) are well known. Tall, muscular, and facially handsome. A lot of men will NOT be able to achieve this no matter how many hours they spend at the gym.This is an understandably frustrating concept: we men are all… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Blaximus,

I’m 5’8″. Tall dark and handsome matters, of course it does.

But it really isn’t the only thing, otherwise I would never get laid.

Maybe I just haven’t been rejected enough to give up yet, I don’t know.

I do know that I can’t change my height, but also that I am no quiter.

So yeah, I don’t agree with mgtow s that act defeated.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@Cave

Rejection is never a reason to give up on anything in life. How boring would it be if everything came easy with little or no effort?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“To all eyeballs reading these words: NEVER ACCEPT that 80-90% of us will fail. NEVER ACCEPT that if you’re not rich, buff and model handsome, that you are finished.”

Statistics do not apply to an individual. The individual is a dataset unto himself. I disagree with you to this extent:

Never Accept that YOU will fail.

lh
lh
6 years ago

@Blaximus: I don’t see 90% failing either. But if you would define “failing” as “no HB8.5+ begging to fuck them” …

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

kfg – Okay. I’ll accept that point.

I just have issues with stats. It makes more sense that stats wouldn’t apply to an individual, because that’s been my life experience.

Fucking stats man, they’re awful unless they are used to predict survival in certain scenarios.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

Blaximus, my thoughts exactly.

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

@lh I get the whole ” I want to bang HB8″s and higher ” thing – every man needs something to aspire to – but it’s a little too formulaic to me. What’s an HB8 anyway? Really? If my dick was crumbling from dryness, I’d be eyeing the HB6’s all day until my problem was rectified. Most of the really pretty chicks I’ve dealt with were more work than pleasure. I had to pull my dick out of them at some point and they usually became dull and simple. It’s fun to chase ’em, catch and release, but fuck putting… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@ HH – you said “I can say I have a normal sister and a normal mother and both are way more sensitive and emotional than me.” Also from what you said it seems you choose to have male friends more than female friends (but I might just be misrepresenting what you said re friends). Here is my question – do you get weirded out about regular women, about how it seems like an accurate way to describe what is going on with their emotions, especially when they get “gushy”, is that there is a weird narcissistic component to this,… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago
Reply to  Wild Man

@Kfg “Women are society, but men are civilization.” “The overall social discourse, which is in the hands of women, on these issues was constructed to deceive.” “Never Accept that YOU will fail.” What wisdom that holds in this world. @Blaximus “Rejection is never a reason to give up on anything in life. How boring would it be if everything came easy with little or no effort?” Nothing is worth more than you as a human. Effort is progress on getting better as a Man. “Fucking stats man, they’re awful unless they are used to predict survival in certain scenarios.” Not… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“It makes more sense that stats wouldn’t apply to an individual . . . ” . . . because given an individual, you can actually measure him. Stats only apply to the anonymous population from which they were generated. We use stats because we do not have an individual in front of us to take direct measurements. It is a mathematical tool of ignorance. This is why epidemiology has turned nutrition and medicine into “health care.” The individual is no longer actually assessed, merely compared to a chart of a population, to which, upon actual measurement, it might well be… Read more »

teddj4g
teddj4g
6 years ago

KFG – ““Health Care” is herd management, not medicine. Its success or failure is only determined by its effect on the population, not you.”

Wow, another light bulb. I’ve known for years health care was a joke, but I attributed it to bureaucratic bullshit. But your description makes perfect fucking sense as to why it was piss poor before the Fed got their paws on it.

That’s two aha moments from the blog this week. You guys rock.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

“If my dick was crumbling from dryness, I’d be eyeing the HB6’s all day until my problem was rectified.” I don’t even think of women IRL on a scale. I end up subconciously putting them into 3 categories. 1. Would not bang 2. Would bang 3. Out of my league (still working on that mindset and AA, long way to go) In field reports I’ll put what I think they are, HB7 or whatever, but in real life its “pass the boner test” all the way. That’s because I’m still in a scarcity mindset and have had limited success. So… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“I end up subconciously putting them into 3 categories.”

Ditto, only my categories are somewhat different:

1. Would not bang

2. Would bang

3. An object in my way, because if it’s not in my way, there is no reason for me to notice it.

Chew on that, ladies. It’s when I don’t notice you as a sexual being that I objectify you.

lh
lh
6 years ago

@Blaximus: My point was many of those failing got the wrong mindset. They see the hot babe and want this and not some plane jane. The plane jane doesn’t seem worth all the effort of learning game and improving themselves. And the effort they put in doesn’t yield results with the hot babes. The issue is the mindset. They still put the hot babe on the pedestal. They still are addicted to the gratification of looking at or being with the hot babe. And so no effort they ever put in “game” works because they missed the basic foundations. You… Read more »

HopelessHypergamy
HopelessHypergamy
6 years ago

— “Here is my question – do you get weirded out about regular women, about how it seems like an accurate way to describe what is going on with their emotions, especially when they get “gushy”, is that there is a weird narcissistic component to this, that is off-putting” – Wild Man @Wild Man I am put off by overly emotional, self centered reasoning when I see it in either gender. I have experienced it in both genders many times over in my life. I will admit, more so from women than men, but I have a lifetime of annecdotes… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago

@lh Hypergamy doesn’t care. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D0RBn79OXc0 “I think it is important not to build buffers.” Just journaling about that. “One of the most bitter aspects of the RedPill is in my opinion how this BluePill fantasy of getting the gratification from getting that unreachable princess is simply impossible. You can learn game and go the way of the PUA, but at the point where you get the hotties, it will not feel special anymore. That’s why it works. It’s all about getting that state of mind.” Mental point of origin is something I get better at while running. Being in that… Read more »

teddj4g
teddj4g
6 years ago

Hopeless – heh, well I guess perhaps you’ve had far more positive “people” experiences than I have. Mostly, “people” let me down. Of course, that’s my fault for often expecting far more from them than they are capable of. Can’t help it. I’m an idealist at heart trying to live in the real world. Shit is far more messy out here than in my head.

Not Born This Morning
Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

This is off subject but worth mentioning. I had lunch with an older female client today and we were discussing various subjects. She is very well educated, Ivy League graduate, PH.D., worked in the financial sector all her life, never married, held upper level management positions. She is very intelligent and as analytical and rational a woman as any I’ve ever known. We have conversed in the past on numerous subjects and she is capable of being very realistic, able to comprehend quite a lot concerning objective strategy, complexities, etc. We were discussing white rice vs brown rice today when… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@KFG and Tedd

If you are interested in the line of thought about healthcare. Nassim Taleb had an excellent take in regard to not thinking about the individual in his book Antifragile (which has 100’s of other great lines of red pill thought, most important of which is Stoicism).

Not thinking about the individual is a core failing of most physicians.

CaveClown
CaveClown
6 years ago

The hardest part of the “New hope” and not finding contentment in blue pill contexts? Not having any idea what you want. I was so deep into the blue pill and living for women (mother, wife, kids, mother again) that when I stripped all that away, I was left with nothing. Not a clue who I was, or what I wanted to be. One thing I realized I did right was my pursuit of money. I’ve been shamed by the wife non stop for it, but I did put it before her. At the time u wasn’t doing it for… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

Guy crack:

Hank Holiday
Hank Holiday
6 years ago

This is mostly for yareally, since I haven’t really seen many pua guys on here lately.

I am going to do some FR’s like immoralgabels and scray. I am going to move in about 6 months, and then I can dedicate a lot of time to it, but until then I can still do a bit. My situ is a little different than most guys, so should be interesting. I will have some updates in a few days.

Hank Holiday
Hank Holiday
6 years ago

Have a question for rollo.

How do you explain pity sex through the lense of hypergamy?

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@HopelessHypergamy – “Females who are selfless and giving and full of compassion” That sounds good to me. When I see a woman who seems to behave in a kind and caring fashion to everyone in the social group, I think OK – there it is – a woman that has the female correspondent to the man’s exuberant aggression. What exactly is going on with her? What is she feeling? If I could understand this in terms of the female correspondent to the healthy male emotive disposition of exuberant aggression, I could get a handle on how to understand this (the… Read more »

HopelessHypergamy
HopelessHypergamy
6 years ago

(This post is extremely long, and tells more of my personal story. Many of the commenters here dgaf. If that’s you, just skip me. My input was requested by one person, and I am compelled to answer as I am able.) @Wild Man I want to clarify that I am extremely satisfied with my husband. I am excited about life with him. We’re going to be fine. I am agonized over how I treated husband number 4, but both he and I have to get over the home wrecker in our story (me) and move forward. I can’t unwreck our… Read more »

HopelessHypergamy
HopelessHypergamy
6 years ago

“Fermentation headed hubris” was supposed to be “femme headed hubris.”
I’m pregnant… don’t want nobody thinking I be drinking over here. 😉

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@HH – Thanks for your comments. Good to know it will turn out OK for you.

Re – your advice – a more rational leaning woman – (like stop thinking about it in terms of whether there is genuine kindness vs. not-so-genuine kindness and look for someone who doesn’t self-identify so much around this trait) – I think you have a good point there – I’m going to mull that over. Thanks for the advice.

Re emotive disposition of a healthy man = exuberant aggression. Do you think the female correspondent = passionate deference? (instead of selfless kindness)?

HopelessHypergamy
HopelessHypergamy
6 years ago

“Re – your advice – a more rational leaning woman – (like stop thinking about it in terms of whether there is genuine kindness vs. not-so-genuine kindness and look for someone who doesn’t self-identify so much around this trait) – I think you have a good point there – I’m going to mull that over. Thanks for the advice.” More like, stop being the outside decider on whether a woman’s kindness is genuine. Men and women feel differently, and even if women’s feelings of kindness and compassion must be triggered by a something they relate to (instead of freely concieve)… Read more »

Scribblerg
Scribblerg
6 years ago

@HH – So no mention of the wreckage from hubbys 1-3? Lol. And here is the only question that counts; What will you do if/when a better deal than hubby number 5 comes along? Most laughable , you keep claiming to be so focused on your child – newsflash fucktRd, you already did huge damage to the kid by getting divorced. No matter what you do as a parent going forward you will have destroyed that child’s family. Such kids have a higher risk of all kinds of psychological and developmental problems. I can’t imagine caring any less about how… Read more »

ETA
ETA
6 years ago

@Rollo I didn’t know he was gay lol… I have a few books from Jack Donovan that I still have to read. Most of what he writes about masculinity and tribalism is common sense and appeals to me as the culture I was brought up in, is Tribal(Clan-ish) in nature. Here’s a book that anyone can find interesting to read: http://www.amazon.com/Kanuni-Leke-Dukagjinit-Code-Dukagjini/dp/0962214108 It’s Albanian Code of conduct called: The Code of Leke Dukagjini It was written down 500-600 years ago, but the rules and norms collected in that book were already part of the local culture for hundreds of years prior… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Hopeless

We’re not a female advice board. Posts like yours are useful to us in that they serve as an example of concepts discussed here.

It’s time you accept that and stop fishing for advice/validation/absolution. Just move on.

teddj4g
teddj4g
6 years ago

Hopeless – there are purple pill and red pill women blogs that might be able to help you. I’m not gonna pimp them here because its Rollo’s house, and my personal opinion on their effectiveness isn’t high. But I read a few, and there are success stories of sorts. Ideally its better to start from a solid foundation and build. But in your case, its more like fixing a structure that had a bad design 10 years after it was built. You can’t make it optimal without tearing it down, but you can shore it up. There isn’t much talk… Read more »

HopelessHypergamy
HopelessHypergamy
6 years ago

I’m not here for advice. I’m not here for validation. I was. I got enough to scrape out of that new low.

I went silent.

Someone asked me a few specific questions.

I answered them. I asked none of my own. I prefaced my posts with “dgaf crowd, skip me”. I take abuse with as much grace as possible, but it’s not my fault if you can’t read.

I will return to lurking.

P.S. @Scribblerg – As for owning / admitting I’m a hypergamous home wrecking destroyer of worlds. I’ve done that.

The end.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@HopelessHypergamy – Thanks for expanding on your advice to me. That expansion is helpful in the sense that your earlier advice seemed well-intentioned, but I think my interpretation of it was a bit nebulous, because it had to make me take a step back and say to myself – “HH has got a point, if I looked for the more cerebral woman, this issue of not being sure about the kindness aspect probably wouldn’t come up as much, so I wouldn’t get the cognitive dissonance around this as much, that I find uncomfortable, so maybe that is the way to… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

HH My life was good and my child is amazing (and worth living for) but I had *persistent* *STRONG* negative thoughts and feelings that re-occured to me, unbidden about guilt, loss, and remorse. No one would really be able to relate. There are plenty of men who can relate. You probably can’t see them. Look at it this way: persistent, strong negative thoughts and feelings such as remorse, guilt, etc. that lead in time to self hate, these are part of the mental landscape of suicidal people. Men are much more likely to kill themselves than women. And by the… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Wild Man HH- I want egalitarian/complimentarianism with a woman I partner with. Dude, you want fried ice? That’s not how it works. Egalitarian is a social construct, a product of huge amounts of resources at our fingertips. It leads to betaization of the man and loss of attraction for him in the woman. Complementary partnership is possible, takes work, but fits the male / female biology. Cheap sperm / expensive eggs, sexual dimorphism, hidden estrus – all that can work well in a complementary relationship. Not in any egalitarian setup, where energy must be put into denying reality on an… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Scribblerg, @Sun Wukong, @teddj4g, @Anonymous Reader Re your most recent comments directed to @HopelessHypergamy – I understand your sentiment but in all fairness to me, her most recent comments (last two days) have been at my behest. In these most recent posts HH has been mostly answering the questions I have put to her. I don’t think she should be criticized for that. Should I be criticized for inviting an exchange of ideas with HH here – maybe – but just where on the web I am I to get what appears to be the woman’s perspective on these redpill… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader “Egalitarian is a social construct, a product of huge amounts of resources at our fingertips. It leads to betaization of the man and loss of attraction for him in the woman”. I think I am using the term egalitarian differently than the way Rollo has intended for this site. But since I have thrown that term around on this forum for a few days now, I thought the best course currently would be for me just to redefine what I have meant by that all along. As I stated in my post above, I redefined (in a way… Read more »

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

IDK???? Am I the one that’s missing the point here? Yes, Blaximus, I believe you are. I’m not saying you’re an idiot or a lunatic. It’s just that: you’re missing the point. IliadsTangent’s original point was that in a FI driven society, ninety percent of men will be “celibate or close to it”. That’s a pretty wide category, so I don’t see how his statement is unrealistic. It’s important to put it all in context. Consider the three following social trends: 1. Average female quality is dropping due to various factors such as the obesity epidemic, unhealthy lifestyles, feminist conditioning… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

– (quoting from wikipedia) – “that all humans are equal in fundamental worth”, and therefore, as such, men/women are of equal fundamental worth.

Define “worth”. Then tell me who gets to decide what I am ‘worth”, and how my “worth” is the same as someone else.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

Truly? This is like saying the Russians were eating wallpaper paste so there must not have been any problems with the nutritional content or taste of wallpaper paste. And Stalin was a great leader…otherwise, why would they use him?

Truly. They have carried out their duts, fought and eventually won. They had their various shortcomings, but male units had those as well.

hoellenhund2
6 years ago

*duty*

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@ETA: “I didn’t know he was gay lol…
I have a few books from Jack Donovan that I still have to read.”

I suspect his Androphilia, originally published under the nom de plume Jack Malebranche, will clear up his ideas on sexuality for you.

The sort version is that he’s homosexual, but not “gay” and hates “fags.” He’s homosexual because he is attracted to masculinity.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader” “Define “worth”. Then tell me who gets to decide what I am ‘worth”, and how my “worth” is the same as someone else.” 1) Worth = You exist. You were born, survived and made it to maturity. 2) Nature has already decided as per #1 3) Existential worthiness variation: In nature’s game of life, we are all allowed to have opinions, but they are just opinions. The final worth arbiter: Life outcome and death. And to drive the existential point home – not that even. What is really going on = the exploration of one multi-dimensional combinatorial space… Read more »

HopelessHypergamy
HopelessHypergamy
6 years ago

@Wild Man
I’m pretty uninvited, so to speak. I would post my email for you to take the conversation off comments, but I don’t really want to invite the vitriolic commenters one step closer into my personal space.
If you post yours, I will write. If you don’t want to, either, I understand.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
6 years ago

@HopelessHypergamy
Hey you could use a new one without it being your regular one. That conversation seems important to have. I see your point however.

Christ loves strong, smart women
Christ loves strong, smart women
6 years ago

Maybe this is the natural order of things. Men have controlled, dominated, and basically ruined our world. Major world religions are controlled by men and do more harm than good. Now it is time for women to be in control and tell men to shut up.

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

Ouch.

teddj4g
teddj4g
6 years ago

” Now it is time for women to be in control and tell men to shut up.”

Only if you brought sammiches. No? They aren’t going to make themselves…

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@HopelessHypergamy

Email: wild.r.man@gmail.com

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

1) Worth = You exist. You were born, survived and made it to maturity.

Ok. So crack babymomma with 10 kids has the same worth as you, that’s your idea of egalitarianism? Sheesh, try again.

2) Nature has already decided as per #1

Nature? We live in a totally hothouse environment. Most people couldn’t last a week if the power went off and stayed off.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader – do you disagree that men and women are of equal fundamental worth?

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader – do you disagree that men and women are of equal fundamental worth?

Equal fundamental worth to whom? So far you either argue that “worth” means “not dead”, or you go off on some babble-tangent. Both are essentially worthless. See what I did there?

Seems to me that you’re still flailing around without a definition for your word, and since you’ve decided to redefine “egalitarian” / “equalitarian” to suit yourself, it’s really not clear what your point is, or if you even have one.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader – you say both worthless (to be nihilistic about it) and so equal, so you agree. I don’t think I’m flailing. I think this distinction as to the two versions of redpill I detect in the redpill community, is an important distinction. 1) Less cynical redpill: men and women are complimentary and of the same fundamental worth. 2) more cynical redpill: men and women are complimentary but due to the nature of the complimentary dynamic, it is necessary that man sees himself as superior in worth and acts accordingly. There are these two threads occurring within at least… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
6 years ago

@Wild Man

2) more cynical redpill: men and women are complimentary but due to the nature of the complimentary dynamic, it is necessary that man sees himself as superior in worth and acts accordingly.

Nothing cynical about it. Hypergamy demands a superior man. If you’re not, you’re dog food to her. For all intents and purpose the only men women interact sexually when they have options are men they perceive as better than them. Without exception. That’s not cynical, that’s reality.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

A jar and complimentary lid are far more useful than either one alone, however, if you can only have one, I advise you take the jar.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Wild Man, you still want fried ice. You want blue pill “egalitarianism” and red pill “complimentarity”. This doesn’t work. As Sun Wukong pointed out, Hypergamy demands a superior man. You are indeed flailing, because you clearly want egalitarianism / equalitarianism to work, yet you recognize it doesn’t. So you redefine the term to make your amygdala feel better. But even your redefininition of the term fails, because your definition of “worth” is too vague to be of any use. You’ll just have to come to terms with reality: men are not inferior women, women are not men with boobs, complimentarity… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Nuts. Failed to close an italic after “superior man”. Oh, well.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Rollo, @Anonymous Reader, @Sun Wukong, @kfg; To simplify the point I am trying to get across, with the idea that the, – egalitarian (as I am defining it) = equal existential fundamental worth of individual people let’s apply that within the narrower parameter of the man/man intrasexual dynamic. If you supplicate to the hypergamous demands for a superior man vis-a-vis other men, what frame will dictate your strategy? Will you still prescribe to the golden rule within your strategy (in keeping with my definition of the egalitarian), or will you not, especially in light of the knowledge that many, many… Read more »

Darryl Long
Darryl Long
6 years ago

Rollo you mention Jung as the beginnings of equalism but the path twists around him too. Steven Pinker’s The Blank Slate talks about the philosophical background of the idea that we are all nuture rather than nature and why people rebel against the idea that biology has any control over us – the are scared of losing agency. The other path is Foucault to Judith Butler. Those two philosophers unhinged gender from science and moved it into the realm of culture. They saw gender as “performce.” It’s interesting that they were both gay. I just have to think in their… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

– egalitarian (as I am defining it) = equal existential fundamental worth of individual people

Yet you keep leaving “worth” undefined.

Walls of text telling us stuff that is not true or is irrelevant isn’t interesting or useful. Try something else. For example, try reading Rollo’s previous postings.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader – egalitarian (as I am defining it) = equal existential fundamental worth of individual people Let me try another tact for which you may appreciate my special meaning. You are alive. I am alive. In that way our worth is equal. From my perspective, you have as much right to the state of being as I do. If it came down to you or me, survival-wise, by some strange circumstance, then the way I would see it – I would do my best to survive, and I would expect you to as well. If there truly was no… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

That’s a big so what. A man is alive, his wife is alive, their child is alive, if she gets unhaaaapy and marches into family court, she’ll have fundamental worth, the child will have fundamental worth, and the man will have zero worth of any sort except as a walking ATM. Another example: Years ago a friend of mine got married. After 3 years his wife wasn’t pregnant. She divorced him and went to find another man who could get her pregnant. His worth to her was high at first, that’s why she married him, but when he could not… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader – having a feeling of respect for the equal fundamental worth of yourself and others, and expecting that same attitude among others (but realizing it is a choice so others may not be abiding) is a choice you make. If you choose this conviction for yourself you do have to vet others for this. I have to admit it isn’t easy to do this vetting, but much easier to vet men than women for this – like I am still confused due to redpill message + my past experiences, whether this is even possible with women, but I… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

tl;dr ending with

Or am I just concern trolling now?

Looks like that, yes.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader – so there it is then. You just trollin on down zeroing in on what make you feel good ignoring the rest. Not hard to read you buddy. Guess that make you the concern troll. Waste of my time.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Yet you keep leaving “worth” undefined.”

He has to, because its meaning as he is using it is metaphysical. Whether he realizes it or not, even if he is an atheist, what he is talking about is the value of his Christian soul before God.

“I really am a redpiller I think, but I am an egalitarianer too.”

I am a human being, but I think I am a cabbage too. Maybe the reason people seem to have a hard time understanding me is because I am the one who is confused.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

@Rollo, @kfg @kfg – Yes my definition of the egalitarian is within the purview of the ontological branch of metaphysics – what is you point? The ontological perspective is the most primary MPO – correct?, and therefore is well within Rollo’s field of inquiry – correct? I would classify myself as agnostic. Your analogy: “if redpiller = human being, then egalitarianer = cabbage” is nonsense, so am I to interpret as a lame attempt for ad hominem misdirection by way of an unimaginative misrepresentation of my aptitude? Or in the spirit of a fair exchange of ideas it is probably… Read more »

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