A comment from Truman gets us started today:
Rollo, it would be great if you could provide some evidence for female solipsism beyond a few examples. From my own experience I could name a few solipsistic women, but I could do the same for men as well, and I’m far from convinced that the trait is universal in women, or even that it’s more prevalent in women than in men.
I will admit that the main reason I split this post into two was because I anticipated this example-seeking. And to their credit my more vocal female commenters didn’t disappoint me with (sometimes over the top) illustrations. If you haven’t had enough of the hamster spinning goodness yet feel free to sift through the comment thread from part one.
However, to begin to work out Truman’s request Voverk from the TRP forum had this example:
One of the most eye opening of the solipsistic world of females was when a plate of mine was giving me directions on where to pick her up. It went something like this:
Her: “When you come to that traffic light, turn over to me.”
Me: “What do you mean?”
Her: “Just turn here towards me.”
Me: “How the hell am I supposed to know which way is that? Left or right?”
Her: “I don’t know. Just turn my way”
She eventually gave directions, but it amazed me how hard it is for a woman to put herself in someone else’s shoes, even if she wants to.
Women’s mental point of origin (solipsism) presumes the entire world outside of her agrees with her imperative and mutually shares the importance and priorities of it.
Just like The Red Pill Lens, it takes a sensitivity to it, but you will begin to notice instances of that solipsism all around you if you pay attention. An equalists, feminine-primary upbringing and acculturation predisposes men to accept the manifestations of this solipsism as ‘normal’, so we blow it off or nod in agreement without really considering it. Most plugged-in Blue Pill men simply view this as a standard operating condition for women to such a degree that this solipsistic nature is pushed to the peripheries of their awareness.
It’s just how women are and women are more than happy to have men accept their solipsism as intrinsic to their nature. It’s excusable in the same sense that women hold a “woman’s prerogative” – she always reserves the right to change her mind. When your default is to accept this social imperative any greater inconsistencies fall into line behind it.
We are conditioned to accept that what best benefits women’s sexual strategy is necessarily what benefits men. On both a social and personal level women’s solipsistic importance presumes, by default, that what best serves themselves automatically best serves men – even when they refuse to acknowledge it. Remember, nothing outside the female existential imperative has any more significance than an individual women will allow it. So, perceptually to women, if a man suits a purpose in her self-primary requirements he must also mutually share in that awareness of his purpose. Thus, she maintains that his imperatives are the same as her own.
Social reinforcement of women’s solipsistic nature is a self-perpetuating cycle. A feminine-primary social order reflects in itself, and then sustains, female solipsism. For most Red Pill aware men this cycle is apparent in women’s overblown self-entitlements, but there’s far more to it than this.
When men accept and reinforce this socially, we feed and confirm women’s solipsistic natures. When men are steeped in a Blue Pill acceptance of what they believe should be men’s condition, and defend (or ’empower’) women’s solipsistic behaviors or manifestations of it, thats when the cycle of affirmation of this solipsism comes full circle.
Recently I called commenter InsanityBytes to the carpet about her first priority being to defend the Sisterhood when Dalrock published a post critical of a woman’s abortions and another who’d joined Ashley Madison then rationalized it away because she was in a loveless marriage with a man who was in his last days.
This is another instance of solipsism; that a woman’s first directive is to defend her sex’s imperatives even above considerations of religious conviction, marriage vows or espoused personal ideology. That’s the depth and breadth of feminine solipsism, and again, this reinforces a cycle of affirming it in women.
One of the easiest ways to identify women’s solipsistic nature is manifested in their communication style, and as fate would have it I received a fresh comment from a new female commenter on my interview with Niko Choski. I wont bore you with the histrionics of most of it, but her ending comments serve a purpose here:
I’m not lonely, I enjoy solitude…
I am a whole person who needs no other for my own completion.No man, no woman. The qualities identified by different cultures as male and female…are all mine.
Your obsession with division….iis absurd.
I’ve dug into women’s communication styles on more occasions than I can account on this blog, and with regard to how women defer to their solipsistic nature there is no better way to identify it than in the priorities they give to communicating with men and other women.
It’s endlessly entertaining (and predictable) to see how often women’s (and feminized men’s) default response to anything they disagree with in regards to gender dynamics is met with a personalization to the contrary. It’s always the “not-in-my-case” story about how their personal anecdotal, exceptional experience categorically proves a universal opposite. By order of degrees, women have a natural tendency for solipsism – any dynamic is interpreted in terms of how it applies to themselves first, and then the greater whole of humanity.
Men tend to draw upon the larger, rational, more empirical meta-observations whether they agree or not, but a woman will almost universally rely upon her isolated personal experience and cling to it as gospel. If it’s true for her, it’s true for everyone, and experience and data that contradict her self-estimations? Those have no bearing because ‘she’s’ not like that.
This personalization is the first order of any argument proffered by women just coming into an awareness of long standing conversations and discussion in the manosphere. It is so predictable it’s now cliché, and each woman’s first retort invariably responds with personalized anecdotes they think trumps any objective, observable evidence to the contrary.
It might be entertaining for Red Pill men to count the instances of personalization in a woman’s rebuttal comment, but it’s not about how many “I”s or “me”s a woman brings to any counterargument – it’s that her first inclination for a counterargument is to use her personal experience and expect it to be accepted as a valid, universal truth by whomever she is presenting it to.
I’s, Me’s and Myself’s are simply the vehicle and manifestation of women’s first directive – a solipsistic mental point of origin; any challenge to that self-importance is invalidated by her personal self-primacy. This mental origin is so automatic and ingrained to such a limbic degree that consideration of it is never an afterthought for her.
This is common to feminine communication preferences (and men who’ve been conditioned to opt into a feminine-primary communication mode). Women focus primarily on the context of the communication (how it makes them feel while communicating), while men focus primarily on the content (the importance of the information being communicated). This isn’t to exclude men from using personal experiences to help illustrate a point, but the intent comes from a different motive. That motive is an attempt to better understand the content and information of that issue, not an exercise in self-affirmation that feminine solipsism requires to preserve a woman’s ego-investments (usually her solipsistic mental point of origin).
The most visible manifestation of women’s rudimentary solipsism is the priority with which they expect their personal, existential, experience to be considered the most valid, legitimate and universal truth apparent in any debate.
Middle of the Story Syndrome
One thing I’ve been frustrated with by virtually every woman I’ve ever known in my life is their tendency to begin a conversation in the middle of a story; all the while expecting men to understand every nuance and be familiar with minute ‘feely’ detail that made up the backstory that’s never forthcoming.
I swear, every woman I’ve known has done this with me at some time. The presumption is that their story is of such importance that bothering with any pretext, or outlining and describing the events and information that led up to that mid-way vitally important element that made them feel a certain way is all that should matter to a listener.
Women have an uncanny way of accepting this when they relate stories among themselves; gleaning incidental details of the backstory as the teller goes on.
There’s an ironic feminine-operative social convention that complains that “men aren’t good listeners” or “men don’t listen” to what women are telling them. This convention is really another manifestation of a solipsistic mindset with regard to communication.
It isn’t that men don’t listen, it’s that our communication styles focus on content information, not the contextual ‘feel’ of what’s being communicated by women. Women, above all else, hate to repeat themselves. Not because of the inconvenience, but because men ‘not listening’ and requiring a repetition of that information conflicts with her own self-primary solipsism.
The want for a ‘good listener’ is really the want for a man who affirms her self-priority by not needing to be told something that confirms that priority more than once. And this confirmation should never require explanation or and understanding of the backstory of events that made it feel important to her.
Women have an inherent pretext in communication that always begins with themselves. In fact, most are so sure of their solipsistic, personal truth that glaring objectivity never enters their minds; at least not initially. As I mentioned in the first installment, women are entirely capable of applying reason, rationality and pragmatism as well as men, it’s just that this isn’t their first mental order when confronted with a need for it. Just as a girl can be taught to throw an object as well as it comes naturally to a boy, a reasoned transcendence above her solipsism, one that considers the individuated existences of others’ experiences takes a learned effort.
Luxocrat had a great illustration as well:
I asked my ex that last month, if her kids came first or if I did. She paused and said “I really don’t know. That’s a hard one.” I replied “Then it’s your kids.” I recall my ex-wife reading one of those save your marriage books right after I made it clear I was leaving. She read me a line in it and said she sees how she was wrong. The line went something like this: “If you want to have a strong marriage, you need to understand your husband comes first, even before your children. They must be taught by you, their mother, that he is head of the household and respect must be given. The only way they’ll see that is by your demostrating by your actions that this is so.”
I still left though.
The irony in this instance is that for all of the humble deference this seemingly good advice promotes, it still presumes a woman is already the primary source of authority who ‘allows’ her husband to be “the man”. I’ve heard similar advice espoused by evangelical pastors making Pollyanna attempts at ‘granting headship’ to husbands and fathers from their reluctant wives. The inherent flaw is that these men already begin from a perspective that women are in a position of unquestioned primacy and require their permission to be ‘men’.
In a way they are unwittingly acknowledging women’s solipsism (and perpetuating the cycle) as a default source of authority. That a woman would need to be taught to defer authority to her husband belies two things; first, her solipsistic mental point of origin and second, that her man isn’t a man who inspires that deference.
It’s easy to see how a Beta man wouldn’t be someone that would naturally prompt a woman to go against her natural solipsism, but in Luxocrats position (I presume Alpha since he walked) there is a conflict women have to confront in themselves.
In a social order that reinforces the entitlements presumed by women’s solipsism there develops an internal conflict between the need for an optimized Hypergamy and the ego-investments a woman’s solipsism demands to preserve it. As a woman progresses towards the Wall and a lessened capacity to optimize both sides (AF/BB) of Hypergamy this conflict comes to a head. The necessities of long term provisioning war with the self-importance of solipsism at the risk of her losing out on preserving both (and having a guy like Luxocrat simply walk away from her).
“The inherent flaw is that these men already begin from a perspective that women are in a position of unquestioned primacy and require their permission to be ‘men’.”
I grew up with a lot of this.
[…] Solipsism II […]
Hah, here’s a good example of personalization to the contrary. I was recently at a friends birthday party. Everyone else there is married. I’m the only single one. Predictably, when I found myself at the hen table, I get one of the more pleasant girls asking me why I, with lots of “great qualities” was still single. I have a tendency to open up when people least expect it. I had had this question numerous times from these girls before, so I just opened the kimono and told them this story: http://therationalmale.com/2015/08/24/jails-churches/comment-page-4/#comment-116063 They already knew my raised-in-cult background, but had… Read more »
“I swear, every woman I’ve known has done this with me at some time. The presumption is that their story is of such importance that bothering with any pretext, or outlining and describing the events and information that led up to that mid-way vitally important element that made them feel a certain way is all that should matter to a listener.” I was doubting some of the words written until I started to recall an interaction with one of the girls I’m seeing that just happened tonight. She was telling me about some news reports she had been watching that… Read more »
Anybody familiar with women saying “well it’s how I feel” or that a man is guilty of wrong doing because she felt uncomfortable, you experienced women’s solipsism.
This was making rounds on FB: http://s10.postimg.org/df6ln52rd/1441753777383.jpg For a majority of women, their progeny comes first. Evolutionary speaking, it has to. Your last post covers this to an extent. A women’s solipsism aids in not only her self-preservation, but by some extension, that of her offspring as well. So while I get that some men feel angered or may grow embittered to this sudden realization, (the thought that a child will always be upheld higher) one must understand that this female condition transpired out of the chaotic and unpredictable environment our ancestors evolved in. Typically, males died off much earlier… Read more »
What’s also a popular one is “well if you understood how I feel than you’d agree with me”. And that could be as innocuous as talking about a movie you like. A man could be surprised at another man not liking a movie, based on what he knows about him or what other types of movies he likes. But he can accept it and enjoy a discussion about why.
It’s often I’ve seen women get on the verge of upset if somebody doesn’t share the same opinion about something they really like.
I love how those photos have been professionally shot. It’s like three generations of attention whores.
“well if you understood how I feel than you’d agree with me”
That one is so fucking cheap. Of course you can understand her feelings. And once you feel what she feels to prove you can, you’ll agree with her and: bam! she got you.
Men have to lead in a way thats pleasing to women, of course its like kissing if you have to ask you’ve already failed.
“it still presumes a woman is already the primary source of authority who ‘allows’ her husband to be “the man”. This is immutably the case in The West. Why? Because “physical violence is the ultimate authority from which all other authority is derived” The state is at her beck and call, so it can only ever be a game of make believe. “Let’s see how it feels to let him play captain while I pay first mate, of course if it goes to his head I’ll take his children and have him jailed” The closest thing to an exception is… Read more »
Another example of solipsism run amok – “If mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.” Pretty self-centered to think that you – and you alone – reserve the right to make everyone around you miserable if things aren’t going your way.
The good news is men have more influence than they think they do if they adopt the right mental frame. The bad news is I don’t see nearly enough men out there with the proper frame, which is part of the reason why women’s narcissism gets more widespread with each passing year.
If I hear one more person regurgitate the “Happy wife – happy life” quote I think I will have to scream. So that’s it – our existence is just to labor to make sure that women are happy and just maybe they will throw us a bone and give us some attention. Rollo you were right – it’s dangerous to free a man’s mind after a certain age… I’m 46 – married for 19 years and could have been the poster child for the ultimate beta male hamster that ever existed. I did everything for her to constantly try to… Read more »
Unplugging men from the Matrix is dirty work.
“Happy wife – happy life”
Partially true when you consider the burden of performance and all that. On the plus side most of making her happy is to be true to yourself as a man, and making yourself happy.
I also believe that after you truly internalize all this red pill shit the burden of performance isn’t as much of an issue because you disappoint yourself with failure to perform more than anyone else.
I can understand female solipsism. It’s how some men blindly indulge it that annoys me. This is a personal example, but the way nearly everyone involved reacts to it shows that female solipsism has been normalized and expected in modern society. An old friend of mine began dating someone a little over a year ago. My friend told me that she wants an “equal relationship”. I reserved my judgment, and observed how equal they were. My friend often takes her out and pays the bill for fancy restaurants and drinks on a weekly basis. He often buys and cooks dinner… Read more »
Another great example of how women communicate is on display every night on your local news. The stories always begin with some poor woman and how she is negatively affected by whatever it is the story is about. They may also drag a child into it for more “feels”. They almost never just give us the straight story without dragging us through the feels territory.
I hear ya Mike Hawk. (awesome name) I swing between being sickened by it, and laughing about it. Hang in there man. My example of solipsism: My wife HATES Rollo because she read his essay on empathy. Says it is hate speech. Tried to shame his work to me with things like “who hurt him?” and such. “I just don’t understand these guys that hate on women. Regardless of what women did to them, they shouldn’t write stuff like Rollo does. They need to grow up. Like saying women can’t empathize with men! What kind of crap is that! Maybe… Read more »
Tale from the Hypergamic Trenches. I start a new job. Job site has two female coworkers to me of slightly different SMV ; on day three Girl A (7) immediately runs aggressive mate guard tactics against Girl B (8) around me anytime Girl B talks with me . I recognize Girl B is just screwing around; no real IOIs, just some fun flirts and whatnot. She owns the office social pool and knows it. I like money, so my zipper only opens at the urinal . Girl A has made no move to socially escalate with me , and being… Read more »
@ Mike Hawk No, its not all about laboring to make women happy. And no its not just to get some sex. Red pill awareness is a starting point for you to become a better person. Someone you respect. If you can make it through triage and want to be a self respecting guy who is better at being a man that you were for the last twenty years, there is hope. A lot of hope, in fact. With enlightened self interest you can regain self respect and have others including women want to be with you because they want… Read more »
September 9th, 2015 at 9:20 am
Good point about modern journalism. Another reason not to watch modern television, news and reality based shows. I need to find a way to pry my wife away from the boob tube.
Guy – I really like your example. The way I see it is that is a “normal” equal relationship nowadays – in fact the woman there probably thinks the man is getting a better deal. The reason is due to the normal laws of supply and demand and economics. Scarcity and availability dictate the value of a commodity. Bottom line is that women hold a 100% monopoly on the world’s supply of pussy. They can control it’s availability as well as it’s going price. Everything that your friend does for her – buying dinner/drinks, cooking, taxi service has very little… Read more »
Thanks for starting with my comment Rollo, I appreciate it, although the post is still fairly short on real examples! Voverk’s one is a good one, I actually had a similar experience once, with a girl who told me to go “that way” when she was sitting behind me in the car and I couldn’t look back. When I laughed and asked “which way”, she just said “that way” again! But she was about 13 or 14 and not the brightest bulb in the box, so I won’t put too much weight on that. If InsanityBytes’ “first priority [is] to… Read more »
“Recently I called commenter InsanityBytes to the carpet about her first priority being to defend the Sisterhood when Dalrock published a post critical of a woman’s abortions and another who’d joined Ashley Madison then rationalized it away because she was in a loveless marriage with a man who was in his last days.” With all due respect Tomassi, I complained about Dalrock’s unforgiveness and condemnation of a now locked up child murderer, because that kind of attitude is bad for the hearts of the men who are promoting it. The woman in prison suffers nothing from their mean little words,… Read more »
Anybody familiar with women saying “well it’s how I feel” or that a man is guilty of wrong doing because she felt uncomfortable Or because she says she felt uncomfortable. Da Hamster told her she felt uncomfortable. A broad told me she didn’t need to express gratitude and thanks for something I did for her (teaching her some dancing) because she felt uncomfortable doing something she doesn’t do with other men (being alone with them and learning dance moves). She did this twice and wanted to do it a third time. And she said this in the very same place… Read more »
She however provides him access to the all-powerful vagina. This is the one thing that a man cannot do for himself. We are at their mercy. Therefore the value of that access is extremely high. Way beyond the value of the things that he does for her.
“She however provides him access to the all-powerful vagina. This is the one thing that a man cannot do for himself. We are at their mercy. Therefore the value of that access is extremely high. Way beyond the value of the things that he does for her.” Luckily that’s not how women see it, or at least not necessarily see it. Their view of the value of these things depends on how you see that value and how you act from that. If the man thinks her pussy is high value and offers a lot to get it, she will… Read more »
“One thing I’ve been frustrated with by virtually every woman I’ve ever known in my life is their tendency to begin a conversation in the middle of a story….”
Oh thank heavens you have arrived. I had these horrible visions of women using men like mules, calling the cops for frivolous reasons, and stealing their children to use as perpetual hostages.
Thank the goddess you have arrived to lead me back to the fold. Every woman is a sacred princess who must be obeyed. Oh thank you, your royal highness, allow me to subjugate myself before your presence.
“One of my favorite sci/fi guys once did a post about “Women as Parasite” that made me think of intestinal worms. Do it again dude and I will flatten your boxes, set them on fire, and sweep the ashes out the door. He wasn’t entirely wrong however, women are a bit like orchids clinging to a decaying log.” Wow. Changed from “women are parasites” to women are beautiful orchids growing on a “decaying log”. That is a spin for the hamster world series. Did you really threaten to flatten his brain with your feminine charms? (true femininity is intoxicating, I’ll… Read more »
“One thing I’ve been frustrated with by virtually every woman I’ve ever known in my life is their tendency to begin a conversation in the middle of a story….” This is a perpetual state of affairs with my wife. She simply expects me to decode which one of the three active threads she has switched to in the moment. This of course includes a thread I have no knowledge of even existing. I of course am also responsible for simultaneously developing any required context to make the story sensical in the slightest. As noted she gets snippy if I ask… Read more »
Mark Gungor’s trite characterization of the male brain is a feeble attempt at humor. And your essay about this concept and how a woman’s brain works is a solipsistic and feeble attempt to make sense of a woman’s lack of ability to control her uncontrollable emotions and lack of rational thinking. A man’s “empty box” really derives from his primal nature and search for freedom. (i.e. a moment of La Petit Mort) “The essential masculine ecstasy is in the moment of release from constraint. This could occur when facing death and living through it, succeeding in (and thus being released… Read more »
@agent p “This is a perpetual state of affairs with my wife. She simply expects me to decode which one of the three active threads she has switched to in the moment. This of course includes a thread I have no knowledge of even existing. I of course am also responsible for simultaneously developing any required context to make the story sensical in the slightest. As noted she gets snippy if I ask her to back up and or render some more detail to the whole thing so I can get on board with what the fuck she is talking… Read more »
@Truman Women’s “tendency to begin a conversation in the middle of a story… I swear, every woman I’ve known has done this with me at some time” Not me. I’ve probably seen it a handful of times in my life, especially from my mother, but it’s extremely rare in my experience. You should probably think a little harder on this. I’ll bet you’ll find more examples in your life. Just this week, the new secretary in our group has interrupted a conversation I was having three times in as many days with the presumption that I was already up to… Read more »
@ sjf – Thanks for the reply and the welcome here! We split up about six months ago – our relationship had died many years before that. I’m definitely in the anger phase of the acceptance process and believe it could easily take years to fully recover – if ever… I’m doing my best to keep my sanity – trying to take care of myself and make myself happy – but for the most part don’t even know how to do that. I was an only child and I grew up without any positive male role models. My mom controlled… Read more »
The neuro architecture of a habit, particularly a bad habit is remarkably similar across bad habits. For example, habits such as alcohol & drug abuse dependency, gambling, addiction to porn, shopaholics, binge eating, ect. And therefore, fissures and cracks anchored to a “disease model” pushed by traditional Western medicine (NIH, counselors, psych-docs, big pharma, and industry wrapped around disease model such as insurance, treatment centers) have a lot at stake if renegade docs such as Mark Lewis keep the focus on habit architecture as a complex behavioral manifestation rather than cellular and or brain defects. To be sure, there is… Read more »
@SJF: “Good point about modern journalism. Another reason not to watch modern television, news and reality based shows. I need to find a way to pry my wife away from the boob tube.”
Your instinct here is correct. We stopped watching television in my home in January 2014. The increase in peace in the home and positive change in my wife has been remarkable. I cannot recommend this enough. After three weeks, you won’t miss it. In six months, you’ll be annoyed when stuck in a waiting room playing CNN.
“Happy wife – happy life”
True in its way but you can’t make your wife happy in order to get a happy life.
On the other hand if you’re red pill aware or at least red pill acting, and you have a happy life, odds are, your wife stands a good shot at being happy.
She will not know why she is happy.
RE: “Happy Wife – Happy Life”
A cat in an apartment views all rooms,furniture, and stuff as it is owning it. Actually the cat believes the family is also part of the flat, which belongs to the cat. Totally self centric animal. Ancient Egypt had a cat goddess. Female body and cat head.
They were wise …
“Egypt had a cat goddess. Female body and cat head.
They were wise …”
Wise in the recognition, complete and epic failure in the worship there of.
“This is a perpetual state of affairs with my wife. She simply expects me to decode which one of the three active threads she has switched to in the moment. This of course includes a thread I have no knowledge of even existing. I of course am also responsible for simultaneously developing any required context to make the story sensical in the slightest.” Be careful with that. You could actually connect to her so well you’ll understand without asking and it may be easier in the long run. But in doing so you’ll hand her some frame and maybe that’s… Read more »
We’re at a conference table with attorneys discussing a settlement. Her: We agreed I would stay home and raise the kids. Me: We also agreed “until death do us part.” Her: That’s different. I’m wasn’t happy. Me: I’m not happy you want $8k a month for 12 years. Her: We agreed I would stay home. Since I haven’t worked, I can’t get a job. Me: You had a job when I married you. Her: I raised the children. Me: WE raised the children and for the last 9 years you haven’t had to do much. You could’ve become a brain… Read more »
@Caveclown “(true femininity is intoxicating, I’ll give you that..But that ain’t you sista)”
True femininity is like pornography, you know it when you see it.
Can’t help smiling every time I see that.
The female’s self-indulgent metal POV, the “now appeal” (“how do you feel”?, “It’s what I feel right now”, short-term thinking vs. downrange benefits)
The same thought occurred to me. It seems that solipsism is not just “me” as opposed “us”. But also “now” as opposed to “future.”
I agree 🙂
@entropyismygod. As if we can judge the Ancient Egyptians on the matter of gynocentric behavior. In any event ,women have told me point blank all they care about are their kids-unborn or otherwise – and themselves. In that order. Us males may as well be biological furniture for all they care about us. It may seem drastic , but women do NOT view us as human. To execute the tenets of Hypergamy they frankly can’t afford to. Much like how cops have to dehumanize their jobs or risk being psychological basket cases, to fulfill the occasionally immoral tenets of maximizing… Read more »
It’s not as bleak once your eyes get adjusted to reality. It just seems that way at first because the ideal that exists in the male mind based on what the matrix feeds you is actually impossible. It doesn’t mean that you can’t live happily.
Stay in the pool a while, you’ll be beating off the sharks in no time.
that post on the desire dynamic hurt me to my soul… That is exactly how our marriage ended – we went that route and just as the post illustrated – it didn’t work
Sorry man, so fucked up that this is common marriage advice. It should be a crime.
@ Mike Hawk You’re on the right track. I would recommend to read through as much of therationalmale.com as possible. It is a great resource in helping you understand how you have been conditioned throughout your life. I think a good thing to focus on is improving yourself and learning to live for your own enjoyment. It may be difficult to live for yourself at first, but when you start to feel guilty about it, remind yourself of everything you’ve done for the people who demand your sacrifice, and think about if they’ve reciprocated your good will. If they haven’t,… Read more »
@Jeremy You should probably think a little harder on this. I’ll bet you’ll find more examples in your life. I’m sceptical, but I’ll watch out for it. If I find some examples, I’ll try to post them here or in the next related thread! I’ve not found a woman this did not apply to in some fashion. A few examples from my own life are: – a woman who is distressed about her brother’s suffering violence at the hands of his girlfriend, and the courts’ taking the side of the girlfriend. The other women who were in the group as… Read more »
@Jeremy “It’s not as bleak once your eyes get adjusted to reality. It just seems that way at first because the ideal that exists in the male mind based on what the matrix feeds you is actually impossible. It doesn’t mean that you can’t live happily.” Life is a grind stone. You can place your trust in the illusion of the feminine primary goddess worshiping blue pill and be crushed under the weight and grinding of the stone. Or you can accept the painful truth of reality, the brutality of the red pill, turn yourself and let that stone sharpen… Read more »
@Troberts “The neuro architecture of a habit, particularly a bad habit is remarkably similar across bad habits. For example, habits such as alcohol & drug abuse dependency, gambling, addiction to porn, shopaholics, binge eating, ect. And therefore, fissures and cracks anchored to a “disease model” pushed by traditional Western medicine (NIH, counselors, psych-docs, big pharma, and industry wrapped around disease model such as insurance, treatment centers) have a lot at stake if renegade docs such as Mark Lewis keep the focus on habit architecture as a complex behavioral manifestation rather than cellular and or brain defects. To be sure, there… Read more »
And “Balls of Wire and Little Boxes” could have easily been written by a 5 year old. In fact I’m pretty sure it was plagiarized from a 5 year old.
In an earlier thread I asked how we differentiate true Solipsism from simple self-centeredness or selfishness or Narcissism or even cluelessness. I am still trying to do so. Truman questions some of the examples others give, and while I might not agree with all of them I think we should clarify what we mean. A dictionary definition is this: 1. Philosophy. the theory that only the self exists, or can be proved to exist. 2. extreme preoccupation with and indulgence of one’s feelings, desires, etc.; egoistic self-absorption. Both pivot on what we are talking about, but it’s not quite there.… Read more »
… is the solipsism we are talking about not a ‘preoccupation’ with one feelings and desires (‘yeah…Jimmy is having a tough time but so am I and it is some much harder for me because I really am sensitive…’), but a literal lack of empathy for anyone else’s feelings or desires. In a sense, it would resemble sociopathy or psychopathy, and I am not making judgements with those terms, but an observation. I think a distinction needs to be made between women’s inherent solipsistic mental point of origin and a learned self-important societally reinforced narcissism. Women’s solipsistic nature isn’t intrinsically… Read more »
in addition to starting conversations in the middle, I also believe that women LIVE in the middle. The old quote in As God as it Gets. I imagine a man and take away reason and accountability. That statement is a good indication. Women always tell me “oh I have time”, “I am young”, “I’m exploring”. yada yada. If they have “the rest of their lives” to make the big bucks and be in the big house then there is no accountability on their life’s progress. This is why the late 30s and 40s are so traumatic for females. They start… Read more »
My experience with women’s solipsism is:
She was about to give me a BJ when she started talking about how she can defeat ISIL / ISIS , I had to agree with her.
@lh “Be careful with that. You could actually connect to her so well you’ll understand without asking and it may be easier in the long run. But in doing so you’ll hand her some frame and maybe that’s why she tries. They draw you down to their level of “short-circuit fault (to use Insanity’s model)” and then beat you by experience. You should find something to punish her in a funny way. Her getting angry is a shit-test, or a failed shit-test already.” Duly noted however, you presume that I actually care about the answer in the first place. Likewise… Read more »
Laugh I nearly sh@ Me: Where is it? (destination) Her: What? It’s The (licensed premises/entertainment/pet vet/hospital etc.) Me: Quite. Do you have a postcode, a street address or something, for the satnav? Her: Why? That always slows things down. It’s a waste of time! You’re fucking iautistic! Just hurry up for God’s sake! Snuffles is dying!!/We’re late!! (because she decided to have a bath at the exact time the reservation/or appointment was made for lol) etc. etc. and if I ever get near Me: Where do you want dropped?/Where’s the turnoff? Her: There. There!! For Christ’s sake what’s wrong with… Read more »
One thing I considered covering in this post (but will save for a future post) is the relatively new social convention of women complaining that any time a man provides a rational, well-reasoned challenge to women’s solipsism is “Mansplaining”. This is a deductive response when a woman’s ‘feelings’ and self-primary experience crashes into cold empirically evident logic – dismiss and disqualify men’s experience with shame. Ego-investment dictates that an attack on an invested belief is equitable with an attack on the person, no matter how incontrovertible the evidence that challenges that belief. So the logical recourse for women is to… Read more »
I think a distinction needs to be made between women’s inherent solipsistic mental point of origin and a learned self-important societally reinforced narcissism. Ok, glad I asked, because I think they can easily get tangled up with one another. I can understand how solipsism could help feed into the narcissism, but they are separate. And to be clear I was not making value judgements on woman’s solipsism using the sociopath examples, but just trying to understand the mindset. Let me offer an example of I think solipsism and let others be the judge. I might have mentioned this story before… Read more »
@SD September 9th, 2015 at 11:45 am “Us males may as well be biological furniture for all they care about us.” “Even Chad Thunderdick can’t escape this- he’s simply a more fascinating and coveted brand of designer male appliance then the boring, store bought provider male. No matter what letter of the Greek alphabet a man attaches to himself, he shares the same rank among all women-an appliance.” I tend to disagree. Forge the Sky and Rollo said it better that I can here: http://therationalmale.com/2015/02/24/the-invisibles/ My wife and her five cats view me as a human on occasion. When I… Read more »
Women only care for and acknowledge the men who make themselves vital to women’s experiences.
@SJF, @Mike Hawk And it speaks to the neuro-plasticity of the human mind that can indeed change tremendously by breaking out of those loops by engaging in dopamine friendly pursuits like Red Pill awarenes and Game. Along the same lines. I don’t think I’ve ever seen The Law of Attraction or Neuro Linguistic Programming ever mentioned on this site. I highly recommend looking into them. Basically “you are what you think you are” Call it neuro-plasticity, call it the placebo effect. It just doesn’t matter because the truth is it works. A great way to jump start yourself into the… Read more »
I think it should be pointed out that solipsism doesn’t preclude men’s benefiting from it. If a man serves a woman’s existential experience she’s more than happy to include his existence into part or all of her own.
Feminine solipsism is about a woman’s mental point of origin (herself and by extension womankind), not necessarily the specifics of how she applies it.
Something Jon and I were discussing a bit earlier was that the Alpha Sigma divide becomes even clearer when it comes to female self-awareness vs solipsism. The short form: As Alphas are more sociable and keep broad harems of plates or girlfriends, they are more willing to overlook the lesser faults of a single woman in favour of the quality she adds to his life. He doesn’t need one woman to be self-aware, to know that she is replaceable, to understand the transactions of the relationship. As long as he has someone for everything, he’s happy to tolerate some misbehaviour.… Read more »
Your own personal solipsism in your comment is shockingly clear. What you are saying is that all men not Alphas or Sigmas are garbage, worthy of slavery and death.
The truth of all women laid bare.
Heh, just got down as far as Truman and agent p’s comments. So it’s not just me being an arse, then?
@Truman These are far from what you would call “red-pill women”, the first two would probably identify as feminist in the vague way that most people do nowadays, and the third is a fairly hard-core radical feminist. The third example must be tossed out as STRs are basically described as healthy for everyone by feminist ideology. She’s just repeating feminist boilerplate in her discussion with you. As for your second example, some women actually grow up with fathers that hold them to account. Those women learn empathy from dad and don’t so automatically regard the male experience as nonexistent and… Read more »
“Most people would hesitate, but if given the order to save the most people, the sociopath would not even hesitate to push.” Like fuck he would. Those idiots chose to get on the car, they can take their chances. Why should he even lift a finger, never mind commit murder, just to save some unwary fools? Only White Knights and despots undertake that kind of “Greater Good” calculation. Fuckem and the car they rode in on. Me and the fat guy are going to search for the tatters of their wallets, and have a damn good drinking session to clear… Read more »
“I think it should be pointed out that solipsism doesn’t preclude men’s benefiting from it. If a man serves a woman’s existential experience she’s more than happy to include his existence into part or all of her own. Feminine solipsism is about a woman’s mental point of origin (herself and by extension womankind), not necessarily the specifics of how she applies it.” And it’s all “unconscious” on women’s parts, no? Like a nice guy having his mental point of origin on someone else or external validation or whatever, it’s not on purpose. So she does not even realize that she… Read more »
On a limbic level, yes. There’s very little reason for a woman’s hindbrain (or a man’s) to expend the mental effort in questioning why a round peg fits in a round hole. http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/14/mental-point-of-origin/ Another consideration is contrasting women’s instinctual mental point of origin (solipsism) with men’s conditioned mental point of origin. When I wrote this post it was an effort in deconstructing how men are taught to sublimate what might be their own instinctual MPO to ostensibly make them more socially pliable (selfless Betas). In contrast, women’s solipsistic, instinctual MPO is entertained and empowered. That MPO is founded in unconditioned… Read more »
“I think a distinction needs to be made between women’s inherent solipsistic mental point of origin and a learned self-important societally reinforced narcissism.”
Solipsism is the hardware and narcissism is the software?
When i raise my fist to the heavens and curse the gods for the way women are, I think I am actually frustrated with the narcissism, not the solipsism?
@Seraph A sociopath can make extremely logical decisions devoid of emotionalism, morals, decency, etc. One example is having to make the decision to push one fat man into a runway trolly car to keep it from hitting a gas tank and killing the 6 people on board. Most people would hesitate, but if given the order to save the most people, the sociopath would not even hesitate to push. Not quite accurate. A sociopath simply feels no social pressure to behave in a default ethical/moral way. The decision happens just as easily for anyone else, it’s just that non-sociopaths put… Read more »
Rollo – “…women’s solipsism is a pragmatic, species-beneficial adaptation that’s preserved us for long time now. Neither is intrinsically bad or good, but only so in their applications.” The judgement of “bad or good” comes from the preponderance of experience. Observable female solipsism is mostly of the bad sort and the easiest to take note of. I assume there is an observable good sort, but am at loss to come up any examples. So I am forced to extrapolate and say the good sort does not necessarily have a benefit for any individual man, but rather benefits mankind biologically. The… Read more »
I was presuming the cave-man example of the woman running away at the first sign of a saber-toothed tiger and letting the man die for her was the good sort. Yes, the man died, and 150,000 years ago, that would have been me… but the species survived. The good part of the solipsism is that it served the purpose of keeping women alive in a hostile environment without masses of white knights to keep them safe.
In regards to the proverb “Happy wife, happy life.” What I find is true is my own proverb, “Chasing wife, happy life.” In other words, if your wife is chasing you, you will have a happy life as much as your wife is able to make it so. To get your wife chasing you, you must have options to make yourself sexually attractive to her. This means you will make use of preselection–the fact that other women find you attractive. You must also cultivate a frame of mind that is mostly aloof and amused by women and in control of… Read more »
Rollo – “If a man serves a woman’s existential experience she’s more than happy to include his existence into part or all of her own.”
And this is the origin of Happy Wife = Happy Life.
Except where it all goes wrong is some shocking number of men thought they could by intent and design serve a woman’s existential experience such that they could earn the benefit of her including his existence in her own.
Yes I think that is the extent of the observable good of solipsism: a man dies.
What I can’t imagine is an example of “good” that is a positive for a living man, but I can write all day anecdotes of various degrees of “bad” that don’t require death, and don’t benefit any man individually or collectively.
What I can’t imagine is an example of “good” that is a positive for a living man,
What about Truman’s example?
a woman who is distressed about her brother’s suffering violence at the hands of his girlfriend, and the courts’ taking the side of the girlfriend. The other women who were in the group as she told the story were also sympathetic.
Tell those women the same exact story from the perspective of the girlfriend, and they’ll empathize with the girlfriend instead of the sister. But that doesn’t mean that the brother isn’t benefiting at that moment.
@Andy, true story: When my brother in law hung himself over his impending divorce with my wife’s sister, it was less than 3 months before she announced she was marrying her millionaire concrete mogul boyfriend she’d “met in a church group”. The truth was she’d met the guy about 3-4 moths before she decided to divorce her husband of 20 years, who’d done the right thing at 19 and married her after he’d knocked her up with their first child. Part of my Red Pill awakening happened when I explained this to some coworker women I worked with at the… Read more »
So it’s not much of a benefit is it? Like a finding a quarter on the street; it’s better than a kick in the balls, but not much better than if it never happened.
So it’s not much of a benefit is it?
Their empathy doesn’t mean much to you because you know that it is situational – but that doesn’t mean that it is not a real feeling that they are experiencing that you could take advantage of.
“Ergo, the challenge is disqualified because, ‘Mansplaining’.”
No, No, No Rollo! At this point I have to totally disagree. A women accusing a man of “mansplaining” actually wants to say: “Don’t make those sexy moves. You’re aren’t sexy/high value enough to pull it off.” It’s like a man making degrading comments about a women in not enough of a dress without the figure to wear it.
Again, I think Truman’s example is poor. The woman only did anything when the law got involved? Sounds to me like their ability to perceive the pains of their own blood (brother) is sketchy at best since they only recognized the problem when it became violent and legally messy for him. A woman who actually uses her imagination to empathize and perceive harm to a man would actively use her greater powers of social perception to detect threats to men in her life. She would challenge women who posed such a threat before they became a problem. That did not… Read more »
@lh A women accusing a man of “mansplaining” actually wants to say: “Don’t make those sexy moves. You’re aren’t sexy/high value enough to pull it off.” It’s like a man making degrading comments about a women in not enough of a dress without the figure to wear it. I actually don’t see a contradiction between this and what Rollo said. Rollo was explaining women attempting to impose their value system on male reasoning with facts and evidence. Women disqualifying it because it doesn’t fit their value system is pretty much exactly what Rollo was explaining. Unless I’m reading between the… Read more »
The woman only did anything when the law got involved? Sounds to me like their ability to perceive the pains of their own blood (brother) is sketchy at best since they only recognized the problem when it became violent and legally messy for him. Maybe I’m misunderstanding Truman’s point, but IMO the solipsism is the sister’s friends. They aren’t empathizing with the brother. They aren’t putting themselves in the brother’s shoes. They are putting themselves in the sister’s shoes. If that happened to their brother they would be sorry. @Rollo, truly fucked up. Do you think their reaction would be… Read more »
And how is the “situational empathy” of the sister’s friends a benefit? Is that empathy for the man or for his sister? So no I see no real benefit to it, I must admit I see no downside to it either.
“Situational Empathy” strikes me as having about as much value as “Opportunistic Love.” Very little.
@entropyismygod I concur. Opening eyes is depressing. If you had asked me what a shit test was a few months ago, I would have guessed it’s when you are leisurely walking down the road minding your business then you come to some pile of shit. Then you taste some. Just a little, you know, just to see how that goes… Shit test right there. Shit test! Aha! So that is what all that has been about all along? All that shit? Ya. Shit test. They cant think of a better way? But it helps to open the eyes because then… Read more »
@cheupez Choose to be the knife, stab the queen of lies. A pop song made for those with the intellect of 12 year olds sings “why does love have to be a battle field?” The answer is because hypergamy is never good. It cannot be satisfied, it is a black hole, un-fillable. A bottomless pit, ever hungering, an addiction. There is no such thing as a good amount of heroin addiction, you can’t use “enough” heroin to be satisfied. You can’t recreationally use Heroin. Love is a battlefield because women are addicted to hypergamy. I was blind but now I… Read more »
And how is the “situational empathy” of the sister’s friends a benefit?
You might be able to exploit your understanding of it. You want a female to understand something. Instead of explaining from your perspective, pretend like you are explaining it from some other female’s perspective. Like instead of “I think” yadda yadda yadda. Maybe try “My mom/sister/girlfriend thinks” yadda yadda yadda
@Andy, I thought Truman was making the point that the fact that any woman had any sympathetic thoughts towards the situation was (partial?) proof that women are not all inherently solipsistic. To me that’s just a reach at best. The point from Rollo as I understand it is that women start from the perception of themselves, always. They operate under frankly a more socially capitalistic point of view, where every woman is out for herself. They instinctively expect that men operate this was as well. This is not the case. Men had whatever feelings they had like this bred or… Read more »
“Part of my Red Pill awakening happened when I explained this to some coworker women I worked with at the time and ALL of them took the side of my sister-in-law marrying the millionaire. Their rationale was that she had moved on from her barely in the ground husband and I should be happy for her.”
How about a two point of views ! , one from Dr. Jekyll and one from Mr. Hyde?
“I actually don’t see a contradiction between this and what Rollo said. Rollo was explaining women attempting to impose their value system on male reasoning with facts and evidence. Women disqualifying it because it doesn’t fit their value system is pretty much exactly what Rollo was explaining. Unless I’m reading between the lines, you just repeated what Rollo said, but from a feminine point of view.” You may be right. But I think it’s important not to cry foul but to play that game. As I said a while back already, apart from the manosphere those radical feminists are the… Read more »
@Rollo, One thing I considered covering in this post (but will save for a future post) is the relatively new social convention of women complaining that any time a man provides a rational, well-reasoned challenge to women’s solipsism is “Mansplaining”. Glad you mentioned that in regards to larger social trends because I could not help thinking that the current hysteria about the college rape hoax and positive consent seems like solipsism. In fact, it might be a pretty strong example of it. While I think there are certainly other societal and political forces pushing positive consent and its ilk, it… Read more »
The amount of examples I see in my daily life of female solipsism, is unreal. As I described in last weeks comment section – I had two girls, one primarily more then the other, literally hate mob me because I pretended like I didn’t know one of them. BTW – I made it very well known I was kidding. This one chicks motive for borderline yelling at me outside of the bar – I ignored her and approached another girl. That’s it. Do she know me? No. We’ve been around one another (mutual friends) three times and let me stress… Read more »
“In a social order that reinforces the entitlements presumed by women’s solipsism there develops an internal conflict between the need for an optimized Hypergamy and the ego-investments a woman’s solipsism demands to preserve it… The necessities of long term provisioning war with the self-importance of solipsism at the risk of her losing out on preserving both (and having a guy like Luxocrat simply walk away from her).” This is why women in a place like the U.S. in 2015 have basically been reduced to pump-and-dumps for men. When the women genuinely don’t care about anything beyond their own personal comfort… Read more »
The only thing I take issue with is the advice, from the book that his wife read, which told her to place her husband above her children. Children come first for a mother, and they should for the father too. I’m not advocating to neglect her husband, but he needs to accept some biological facts and not be hurt because of it.
“For a number of years my wife wanted a budget for buying gifts for each other at Christmas. She state she wanted to cap it at $250 each year, and would bring it up to “keep our expenses in line”. She is normally very budget conscious and this was a recurring theme.” a woman can be allowed to keep track of certain household expenses (grocery, splurge) but she should never think that her suggestions on budget would carry any weight as this implies that she is in control or at very least an equal partner. she is not. when a… Read more »
@Jeremy, “Not quite accurate. A sociopath simply feels no social pressure to behave in a default ethical/moral way. The decision happens just as easily for anyone else, it’s just that non-sociopaths put significant value on how other people value them. This leads them to question their standing with other people if they make the wrong decision, which leads to hesitation. Perhaps I confused it with psychopath, but the point was not that either felt pressure to behave in an ethical or moral way, but that they are entirely pragmatic in the sense of not letting either ethics or morals or… Read more »
Rollo, “Part of my Red Pill awakening happened when I explained this to some coworker women I worked with at the time and ALL of them took the side of my sister-in-law marrying the millionaire. Their rationale was that she had moved on from her barely in the ground husband and I should be happy for her.” Indeed Dr Jekyll vs Mrs Hyde Rationality vs Irrationality Accountable vs Non-accountability This effect… call it the Solipsistic Effect is one of the reasons you can’t trust any advice given by women about women. There is a reality distortion around female reasoning about… Read more »
@Seraph And I am not sure how you think such a decision happens just as easily for anyone else. Because if you take the potential lifelong moral judgement against someone out of the equation, both sociopaths and “normal people” make the same judgement, they would save the larger number of people. If you reduce the decision to a hypothetical discussion, no one has any problem with the choice to save the greater number of people. That’s how I say the decision itself is a simple one for anyone to make. But in the heat of the moment where there is… Read more »
One possibility of understanding female solipsism could be the entirely different concept of “truth”: For us men “truth” is necessarily something devoid of personal interests. It’s something abstract, lacking subjectivity as much as possible. So when a men sees a lot of convincing evidence or at least some plausible theory (and he isn’t entirely stupid), he thinks it’s true and “truth” is also a feeling resulting from that. For women on the other hand “truth” is something pragmatic, it’s what serves them. Only what serves them can feel like “truth” and no evidence will bring that feeling if it doesn’t… Read more »
@lh, I tried to account for ‘truth’ in last week’s post: Women are bad at reasoning, but good at rationalization. Let that sink in for a minute. One cannot rationalize without the faculty for reason. So are women really bad at reasoning? No, actually they’re great at it. The difference is that women don’t place as much value on Truth as they do upon self-preservation, and therefore their reasoning processes do not abort when self-contradiction is reached. They’ll just rationalize their way out of that too, if exposed. Ultimately, the so-called hamster reflects an underlying difference in value systems more… Read more »
Hilarious Stories! I make a good living so keep this in mind when I tell you my wife wanted to follow Dave Ramsey’s Debt Free. We are trying to become debt free so we can accumulate properties mortgage free. His idea of frugal living is 10 year old honda civic and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I usually have about $1500 each week cash that I put into savings or buy gold, guns etc. She does not have access, which she wants! She DOES have access to all that is in the bank via debit card though, but having cash… Read more »