Dancing Monkeys

Dance Monkey

From the Unbearable Triteness of Hating:

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.

Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

After this week’s post the expected debate of who are you really being you for came up. In managing your expectations in accord with the reality of women’s nature there’s always going to be some indignation for needing to do so. The perception of having to cater to the whims needs of women in order to broker some reward that’s never going to be an equitable trade is not only senseless, but it pisses off men who spend an inordinate amount of time and effort to better themselves for themselves and not be appreciated for it.

I’m cursed with a broad spectrum of interests, passions and hobbies. At the risk of glossing myself, I’ve been blessed with a lot of natural gifts and talents, and I developed the skills to better enjoy them, to profit from them and to explore things I simply find fascinating. For the greater part I don’t do these things for me, but rather because I’m genuinely curious and interested in them. I didn’t get into competitive fencing in college because I thought chicks would dig it. Nor did I pick up the sport as some “doing it for me” personal validation – it just looked like a hell of a lot of fun and even when I have my ass handed to me I still enjoy it to this day.

The outcome of having developed those competitive skills combined with the physical prowess I also developed, provided some side benefits to my enjoying fencing, lifting, martial arts and all of the other sports I’ve engaged in over the years. The good peripheral rewards are fairly obvious when it comes to physical interests, but I have hobbies and artistic pursuits that would probably surprise even my readers here.

I use those to my benefit in my personal and professional life, but some are most definitely not the things women would be drawn to in a guy. Of course, I don’t really care, but that doesn’t erase the preconceptions women (or anyone really) have of those interests. It’s easy to say, “well, that’s just me, take it or leave it”, but the fact remains that there are always going to be things you like that will never be an attraction for women – in fact, they’re likely to be an obstacle to attraction.

The Intelligence Paradox

There’s a subset of Blue Pill men who’ve bought into the social advertising that women find intelligent men more attractive. Attractive for long-term security and dependability as a provider? Yes. Arousing as a Hypergamous sexual prospect? Doesn’t matter. The Feminine Imperative likes to promote the ‘intelligence is sexy’ meme so as to have better prepared providers dutifully waiting for women once they’ve had their bad boys and are ready to cash out of the SMP.

That’s kind of bitter medicine for men who’ve invested themselves in intellectual interests they were at one time genuinely fascinated by. Once the imperative takes what it can benefit most from those interests and labels it ‘sexy’ they cease to be genuine fascinations and places them into the realm of sexual attractions. The question then becomes “Who are you really doing this thing for? To be a better prospect for women, or do you do it for you?”

Most intelligent men eventually come to realize that their interests simply aren’t sexy to women; if anything those pursuits usually become an insufferable bore to women. While the idea of a ‘hawt’ intelligent lover is appealing to the female hindbrain, the application of that intelligence is another thing entirely. Hypergamy doesn’t care about your grasp of philosophy, your love of mathematics, your Master’s degree in political science or that you can recognize impressionist painters from cubists. Hypergamy does care about your capacity to apply that intelligence in the service and fleeting contentment of women.

The opportunistic side of Hypergamy might enjoy the benefits that intelligence generates for a woman’s security, but your intelligence itself is not ‘sexy’. If intelligence by itself were a sexual predictor guys like Stephen Hawking wouldn’t find women to be “such mysteries.”

Unfortunately for most men this realization only comes after they’ve played to the script the Feminine Imperative had set for them and they’ve committed themselves to a woman he believed found his beautiful mind so attractive.

I detailed a bit of this dynamic in Compatibility:

However, I do think the desire of finding a common interest prior to, or in order to hook up with women is an interesting one. The MGTOW crowd will of course use this as a prime illustration of how men autonomously shape themselves to the ideals of women. And in the terms of living in the feminine reality they’d be right. You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. If she cannot realize a tangible result that benefits her – or by way of her, the potential “family” or the “relationship” – your effort is pointless and frivolous in contrast to engaging her, entertaining her or relating with her. Again we see the hypergamous feminine imperative of girl-world. If it’s not directly benefiting women, it’s not benefiting humanity in general.

It’s easy to apply this dynamic to something that’s directly relatable to women’s arousal/sexual interests. I covered this in Crisis of Motive; men ostensibly lift weights for their own personal validation – they do it for them – but when it’s obvious that a man can leverage that motivation and good physique to arouse women that’s when his motives become suspect:

I can’t recall how many times I’ve heard guys at Gold’s tell me the same thing as to why they workout.

“I do it for me! Yeah, of course, chicks check me out more now that I’ve dropped the fat and bulked up, but this is all for me man.”

I’ll admit, I was that guy at one time. For a guy it makes sense to cop the story of singularity of purpose since it implies that he’s his ‘own man’ and not improving himself to become more acceptable to the women he observably and admittedly wants to get with. This is the paradox of self-improvement – are you doing it for yourself or because you want to others to respond more positively to you? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both.

When your personal interests can be directly relatable to attracting women that is when your motives will come under scrutiny. Saying I enjoy reading books on astrophysics in my leisure time wouldn’t draw the same suspicions of my motives as my saying I’ve been a bodybuilder for most of my life because I just enjoy it and like to maintain my health.

Thoroughbred had a good comment about this:

JCL – “If I didn’t know any better I’d think the Red Pill is feminism for men, even though women are shit you still have to perform under the new agenda.”
See…

This is the subtle distinction where I think most of us get it drastically wrong. There is a huge chasm between performing for a woman and performing for yourself. Hell, I’m still guilty of the former at times still, but I at least recognize it now and am doing a better job of putting myself at the center of the frame rather than a woman. A woman’s love, attention, loyalty (such as it exists), empathy, sympathy, etc. are all *byproducts* of a man who unapologetically takes care of himself, his needs, his desires first. Here’s what I’m getting at… Flip the script on each of these:

“Women want alphas – become a top tier man.” — Become a top tier man for YOURSELF and only for YOURSELF. Women’s attention, loyalty, etc. will be the byproduct of you putting yourself at the center of the frame.

“Women want promiscuous sex – plate them.” — I’m married and was as blue pill as they come before discovering these hallowed halls two years ago. So, this one is modified for the married set.

Bottom line: Sex with wife sucked for years. Rollo’s concept of dread game has literally saved my marriage, but again there’s a subtle and very important distinction. When I initially conceptualized dread game it was with my wife in the center of the frame (in other words “If I use dread on the wife, she’ll want to fuck me more”). The results were meh. However, when I put MYSELF in the center of the frame as in “If I were suddenly single tomorrow how quickly could I get laid?”, the results were dramatic. The difference is this: In the first scenario I was counting on my actions causing a change in someone else (the wife). In the second scenario, my actions caused a radical change in MYSELF and in my conceptualization of myself.

Thoroughbred speaks to two issues here. A Man must place himself as his own Mental Point of Origin. In doing so he prioritizes himself as his primary importance which women find attractive, but you see the dual nature of this prioritization. Thoroughbred making himself his first priority has the effect of improving his life from an overall personal perspective and has the effect of attracting / arousing female interest in him. Does it matter what’s motivated that change in his performance?

Men must perform; and even when they’re performing as the result of genuine curiosity and interest they will make an impression on women. You cannot remove yourself from the Game. There’s a misnomer that Red Pill advocates believe all men need do is be good looking, aloof and let women come to them, but the truth is that even if you’re not approaching you’re still performing, you’re still presenting a presence that women (and other men) will evaluate.

The genuineness of your motive is only realized by you. One thing I addressed in Just Be Yourself is the you others would like to make of you:

We are who we say we are

We can alter our own personalities and have them altered by our conditions or any combination of the two, but to suggest that personality is static is a falsehood. The trap is to think that altering personality is in anyway disingenuous – there are certainly teriffic ‘actors’ or ‘poseurs’, and the like, that when we are confronted with them we sense (or even know) that they are pushing an envelope that they may not be entirely comfortable with, but there is merit to a ‘fake it till you make it’ doctrine. We only percieve it as being ‘false’, ‘superficial’ or as “trying to be something your not” when we have a concept or knowledge of a previous set of personality behaviors. If you met a likable cocky-funny guy at a club this weekend, how are you to know whether he’s the real deal or stretching the limits of his personality if you’ve never met him before?

If you have a look at the picture I used for my post Idealism you can get an idea of how men and women experience their existence. This masterfully encapsulates the mental directions of the genders. For men’s part, it’s their outward looking interests and curiosity that not only make them better Men, but also makes them attractive. Their attractiveness is a byproduct of a curiosity that is indifferent to the inward, self-importance of women.

As I’ve repeated many times, women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life never the focus of it. This is because women’s focus is primarily on themselves and once your primary focus becomes women they quickly lose interest. Men’s attractiveness lies in the results of that outward facing fascination that excludes women from its attention.

Focus on the things you genuinely find interesting, not the personal validation you think they represent. Saying you do things for you only echoes the self-importance of women’s self-focus. It alludes to a desire to be perceived as more attractive for a self-conscious awareness.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Captain Obvious
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> “These women must have some voodoo skills, strong yin or uber-powerful chi and shakti up the bazooka because it just doesn’t make sense.”

Someone has never made love with Borderline Personality Disorder.

Once you experience BPD, it’s just about impossible to go back to “normal” chicks.

The female sex has its “Alpha Widows”. Whereas the male sex has its “BPD Widowers”.

Glenn
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@ Hobbes – You aren’t diagnosing me – I’ve already been diagnosed. Just for the edification of others here who might find this of interest, let me expand on something that Hobbes mentioned because PTSD is misrepresented in the media usually, and is poorly understood. One quick fact is that people with PTSD have no higher incidence of violence than those without PTSD – huh, bet you’d never guess that if you just watch TV… One of the silver linings of our disastrous misadventures in Afghanistan and Iraq is that they got a chance to study PTSD very carefully. A… Read more »

Glenn
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Re: Buddhism – My journey through spirituality led me to become a Buddhist and develop a practice that I followed for about 7 years, before becoming an atheist. A few thoughts The westernized versions of Buddhism I would encounter were often watered down. I practiced at Chuang Yen monastery in Carmel NY and was part of a western sangha there, led by a Vietnamese master who was deeply enlightened. As they say, 1 moment with the Buddha is worth 1000 years of meditation. He was in his 60s, and radiated a peace and energy the I never experienced beforeor since… Read more »

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Less than a week after announcing his 2016 campaign for president, Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida doesn’t need to worry about money. It’s as good as in the bank. “Marco Rubio will have the resources necessary to run a first-class campaign, that’s already been determined,” said billionaire Florida auto dealer Norman Braman, a former Jeb Bush supporter who is now one of Rubio’s highest-silhouette donors. Annandale Capital founder George Seay, who is hosting a Rubio fundraiser with the moneyed Dallas elite at his 7,000-square-foot, seven-bath home on Tuesday, said: “Marco has had zero trouble raising money.” http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3280525/posts BRAMAN ==… Read more »

Captain Obvious
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WHOA. Rational Male has censorship? Ha ha ha.

Thought you were better than that.

LOL’ed.

kobayashii1681
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Brilliant!

kfg
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MOVADO: Improving yourself because it improves yourself is the default for life. As a child you understood this innately, or you wouldn’t be walking upright and talking right now. Many people lose this along the way. The public schools are actually designed to stamp it out in order to make you more regulated in society. Part of improving yourself is developing the ability to approach people. Some of those people will be customers you want to get money from and some of them will be women you want to get sex from. That said, the ideal business is an account… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong

But when females wanted to be in game design, then insisted that guys have to like games women design because “The Patriarchy” dudes immediately smelled bullshit.

You know what’s so retarded about that… There have always been decent female game designers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberta_Williams

The difference between then and now? Women were judged on their merits back then, and now these matrix-agents just want to sleep their way to the top.

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@Glenn @Hobbes I am knew this morning in was my 27th birthday I do have my own cpstd They gave me they label bi polar disorder when I wrote a note on harvesting my body for people who could appreciate life more than me at the time. I used ultra marathon running with my dad to get into a better relationship with him. They tried medicating me and that gave me nightmares. The trauma in detail was stuff that the article just shared covered a lot of. I grew up Mormon with some of the most weird sexual observations I’ve… Read more »

Softek
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@ Glenn I’d also like to mention something I’ve been thinking about recently: PTSD as a result of traumatic birth circumstances. I was born C-section with the umbilical cord wrapped around my neck and almost died – my face was blue. I had to be kept in an ICU for the first part of my life. My childhood was filled with plenty of things to qualify for CPTSD. But it only occurred to me recently that maybe part of the reason I remember feeling depressed and anxious as far back as I can remember having thoughts about things (4 years… Read more »

kfg
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” . . . now these matrix-agents just want to sleep their way to the top.”

So that when they get there they can destroy the foundation. Their goal has never been “inclusion.” It’s to slit the throats of those they don’t want included.

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@softek Come to think of it that happened to me as well. The circumcissen was done by my mom because my dad had it done. About six mouths ago my sister did the same thing to my nephew and it made me wonder if suicide and self abuse start not just socially but family wise. The sexual exposure as a child had people shame me even before I could ejaculate. My sister used to love showing me porn growing up because for some reason she found it funny. My other sister would wrestle with me and sit on my face.… Read more »

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I’m just gonna leave this here for now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOCF0BLf-BM As far as this post goes, I’m trying to separate Game into its own category. That’s what it is — a Game. I’m trying to see sex with women as its own category of personal interests. I’m very interested in NLP and hypnosis and found it amusing to see that in Neil Strauss’s book. Because I know some tricks, I might try incorporating those. That ‘psychic’ stuff is very mysterious and there aren’t a lot of people who understand NLP precepts, much less how to do anything with them or get… Read more »

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@ Rugby I had a family member when I was a kid that made me suck her tits. She wanted to know what it felt like. She was a couple years older than me. I don’t remember how old I was at the time, but I was pretty young. I remember feeling extremely uncomfortable and weird but she talked me into doing it. I remember bringing that up in therapy when I was 14 and he said it was just normal behavior in families to do that. Like, what the fuck? I don’t know, man. Even if it was, the… Read more »

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@ Rugby Thinking about the circumstances of my birth, along with the impact of circumcision in infancy… …family definitely has a tremendous impact. No one can say for sure how much. But very early life experiences, childhood experiences — our brains are plastic most of our lives, but ESPECIALLY so early in life. Which is crazy, considering circumcision and birth complications are both some of the earliest life experiences we have, and yet no one seems to consider their impact on our health. On the ‘coverage index’ for foreskin coverage, I was a CI-0. You can look this up online.… Read more »

kfg
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” I don’t let my interest in nutrition get in the way of my guitar work.”

What would happen to your guitar work if you started eating rat poison?

Jeremy
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@kfg

” I don’t let my interest in nutrition get in the way of my guitar work.”

What would happen to your guitar work if you started eating rat poison?

All great musicians use performance enhancing drugs, up to and including hallucinogens.

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@Glenn, good stuff.

I find The Red Pill and Buddhism very complementary. Both are about seeing the world for how it is, not how you wish it to be.

kfg
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Jeremy: Music is the brandy of the damned. I find it drug enough and have no problem allowing it to alter my mind, although I am rather fond of my coffee. Too much of it, however, like brandy, affects my nervous system in a way that makes it more difficult to play. It is important to be able to break a system down to understand how it works and perhaps alter it, but it’s just as important to remember that the parts are interactive components of the system. The final drive in your car may fail because of a flaw… Read more »

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D. Horrenbrand April 17th, 2015 at 12:55 pm “Who are you really doing this thing for? To be a better prospect for women, or do you do it for you?” – True. If you are doing something to be a better prospect for them, you already lost the game. Well no. If your object is pussy you conform to the requirements. The same way you would if you were building a computer. Short connections, lots of bypass capacitors and terminated lines if you have to do long runs (and “long” depends on edge rates which can be slowed where allowed… Read more »

kfg
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” If you want to be warm in the winter you wear a coat. No one even thinks twice about that. ”

But people do think twice about whether or not they want to be warm, and even about what “warm” means.

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Softek
April 18th, 2015 at 11:30 am

I have been doing foreskin restoration my whole life. It feels really good. Especially at the climax of the effort. But my foreskin is still missing. Ah. Well. The effort is always a pleasure.

Softek
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@ M Simon

Agreed.

You have to conform to the requirements of anything that you want to accomplish. The mistake people make is seeing sex as different from anything else due to Blue Pill idealism.

M Simon
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kfg
April 18th, 2015 at 12:16 pm

Ah. The philosophy of coats. What would Kierkegaard think? I just put on the coat. And maybe add a sweater if it seems advisable.

kfg
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“What would Kierkegaard think?”

Once upon a time I made some effort to find out, but discovered I didn’t care.
I have been branded with the title philosopher, but find it vaguely insulting.

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@M Simon

Are you doing this for you or because you want to get laid? Well what if “you” wants to get laid.?

It’s entirely about frame and mental point of origin.

M Simon
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Glenn April 18th, 2015 at 8:45 am You should do more research on PTSD. It is also genetic and some of the alles have been identified. If is also dependent in part to how those alles extend. Telomeres. I’m not so confident about childhood trauma. The remembrance of it may just be an indication. See if you can find the work of B. Lutz on CB1 knockout mice – done in the early 2000s IIRC. The paper hasn’t been online for a while. But maybe that has changed. Short version. People susceptible to PTSD remember trauma longer. That is why… Read more »

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@ M Simon
This is the best film an interviews I’ve found not just connecting two cultures but explain war ptsd
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WXidvfmb6Go
Using creativity to over come hardship

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@ M Simon

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12035-014-8917-0

“Social Isolation During Adolescence Strengthens Retention of Fear Memories and Facilitates Induction of Late-Phase Long-Term Potentiation”

infinitek19@hotmail.com
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Rollo,

Reading your blogs over a year now, really enjoy your writing. I have bought and read your first book, really helpful and life changing read. Plan to purchase preventive medicine this week. Would like to know if you can reply with a recommended reading list of books? Nothing in particular any Authors or book titles you have read that has helped with your work. Keep up the work opening Men’s eyes. Your work is sorely needed.

Thanks,

Kevin
Newark, Nj

Sent from my BlackBerry® by Boost Mobile

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Softek
April 18th, 2015 at 3:39 pm

Is the social isolation a developer of the problem or an indicator?

PTSD itself tends to be socially isolating – in case you hadn’t noticed. Which you obviously have.

M Simon
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rugby11ljh
April 18th, 2015 at 2:32 pm

The best tools for overcoming PTSD are time and cannabis. And especially when there is not enough time – cannabis. About 10% of the population has PTSD. About the same fraction are regular cannabis users. No studies have ever been done to see if there is a connection. We do have anecdotes from war vets.

Why no studies? How would it look if it turns out we have been making war on the traumatized? Which I believe is what we have been doing.

M Simon
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rugby11ljh
April 18th, 2015 at 2:32 pm

The film you linked to was a cartoon version of Soviets vs Nazis. In Russian with subtitles.

Not Born This Morning
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Human sexual sociology 101 at Yale… Genetically masculine men strive to become academic spiritual nerds. Academic spiritual nerds earn ultimate breeding rights. Only academic spiritual nerds are allowed access to nirvana-gina. Nerd girls are the real unicorns, the genetically superior females (maybe one of them will settle for you). The bad boys are all animalistic rapists. Who wants to work out in the gym and get strong when it is a mans mind and sensitivity that makes him sexually attractive. Everyone who seeks physical strength and health haven’t evolved. Human females really desire and need intelligent and sensitive men who… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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“You probably also have your minimal threshold in other areas for a datable woman, like looks for example, right?” Johnny Bits, “Without a doubt. Since I don’t buy into “marrying you best friend” a shared interest like this is only marginally beneficial to the relationship. Spirituality is an extremely diverse field as well. Of the few women I’ve dated that were regular meditators, this commonality did not result in the rest our values being aligned. Value system, desired lifestyle, and attractiveness matching are all far more important than one shared interest.” – Thoroughly agree! That’s why I was a little… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Glenn April 18th, 2015 at 9:06 am Re: Buddhism – My journey through spirituality led me to become a Buddhist and develop a practice that I followed for about 7 years, before becoming an atheist. A few thoughts The westernized versions of Buddhism I would encounter were often watered down. I practiced at Chuang Yen monastery in Carmel NY and was part of a western sangha there, led by a Vietnamese master who was deeply enlightened. As they say, 1 moment with the Buddha is worth 1000 years of meditation. He was in his 60s, and radiated a peace and… Read more »

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Glenn
April 18th, 2015 at 9:06 am

and

Mad Yale Grad
April 18th, 2015 at 6:13 pm

If you want to be around natural practitioners of mindfulness – hang with engineers. To be good at engineering you have to be paying attention. A price most people would rather avoid.

Now engineers do not all generalize from their work. But a lot do. Way more mindful than the general population.

Tilikum
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Nope, still not a Joo although your weird fetish need me to be (waves hand)

rugby11ljh
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@M Simon
Here is what I meant to post
http://archive.org/stream/On_Killing/On_Killing_djvu.txt

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I have no delusions of blue pill grandeur and I am definitely not in the MGTOW ‘dancing monkey’ set, I understand the intricacies of hyperagamy and the need to ‘perform’ to illicit attraction, no qualms there. The issue I have with game and the red pill is that it promulgates social behaviour as the be all and end all, a magical set of behaviours that will somehow inoculate men from the harsh realities of the real world. The game has changed, the social ecology has changed and women have changed, in this new ‘poly paradigm’ the red pill bends over… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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That’s one of the reasons Big Gov made marijuana illegal – it made people peaceful and adverse to war. MGM, male genital mutilation, is just as bad as FGM, female genital mutilation. It removes the most sensitive part of the penis and makes sex a lot less pleasurable, sometimes even painful, as pointed out by Softek, which by the way was one of the reasons it was mainstreamed in the west – to prevent boys from masturbating. Medical “science” even backed it at one point! Women even report more pleasurable experience with natural, uncut penises over cut ones, though to… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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“The opportunistic side of Hypergamy might enjoy the benefits that intelligence generates for a woman’s security, but your intelligence itself is not ‘sexy’. If intelligence by itself were a sexual predictor guys like Stephen Hawking wouldn’t find women to be “such mysteries.” Where’s the correlation? I mean, I’m amazed Hawking won’t die a virgin. But despite his condition and his looks, he managed to get not one, but TWO wives. So obviously intelligence is sexy to some women. That he finds women to be mysteries (and I’d be mystified too if I were him and got two wives), seems to… Read more »

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Thing is, my greatest interest in life is womanizing. I know that’s a big no no, in red pill country, but I’m unable to convince myself that I enjoy anything nearly as much as fornicating with attractive young women. I’ve had surprisingly good results discussing my favorite hobby with women. It seemed likely that it would come off as a heavy handed DHV attempt, but these girls eat it up, they seem to simultaneously enjoy feeling they’re less gullible than all those chicks, and that they have the attention of a man with options. That’s a familiar idea, but it… Read more »

galt
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So learning game is for the self as opposed to being for women and the world? I think if you start from blue pill you do it for women to please them to bed you,then if you continue on you hit a certain level of success with game then you have to decide if the pussy is worth it or do it for yourself.

rugby11ljh
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Goodnight brothers just saw Ex machina a very cruel story an the beauty of creation and destruction Samurai Song Robert Pinsky, 1940 When I had no roof I made Audacity my roof. When I had No supper my eyes dined. When I had no eyes I listened. When I had no ears I thought. When I had no thought I waited. When I had no father I made Care my father. When I had No mother I embraced order. When I had no friend I made Quiet my friend. When I had no Enemy I opposed my body. When I… Read more »

kim
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@ Glenn “The funniest thing about so many western Buddhists is that many seem to be obsessed with “getting it right” and outdoing each other in their practice” It’s a similar thing in all kinds of communities. For example, I read about Peak Oil at PeakOilBarrel. The people who comment there express such an ethical passion about “saving the world” and “doing the right thing” and “evil Bush” etc yet they speak to each other in such demeaning and nasty ways and seem to be in non-stop competition to be top commentor and to grab a high place in the… Read more »

stuttie
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@ mad yale grad – Hawking is worth US$20-30M

Quasimodo with $20M would have plenty of women sniffing around.

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@ Glenn & kim The whole getting it right and outdoing each other thing reminds me of this koan. It really says it all (that is, it says nothing. heh): The pupils of the Tendai school used to study meditation before Zen entered Japan. Four of them who were intimate friends promised one another to observe seven days of silence. On the first day all were silent. Their meditation had begun auspiciously, but when night came and the oil lamps were growing dim one of the pupils could not help exclaiming to a servant: “Fix those lamps.” The second pupil… Read more »

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@Hobbes, (Way back at the beginning of comments) “4- and this is the worst part for me- it’s the idea that one has to stop “caring”. You do. Of course you do. It’s a GOOD thing, and it sucks to see people thinking they should deny their basic masculine drive and humanity.” So, ‘man up’? I’m honestly asking, not snarky. If I read it right then it seems that you’re saying that men should always ‘care’ because that’s just who they are. As though the changing culture (animal evolution, if you will) is not something that men are really allowed… Read more »

Farfalla
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@Not Born This Morning, Great post and I had similar thoughts just this morning, canvassing my own life and the lives of 10-15 close friends. I had the thought that men are often just ornaments or titles that fulfill a woman’s ensemble, especially in regard to how her friends will regard her. Okay, fair enough. That’s the game and we all should know it by now. Classic feminine projection though; “Men just see us as objects,” when it’s what they do and not just in hormone addled youth. I don’t see how 58 year old men see their non-barbell training… Read more »

Farfalla
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I’ve always seen adventurous, dissatisfied and entitled Westerners who are (mistakenly) drawn to Buddhism as the very worst candidates in the entire world. That’s not a disparagement of Westerners who become true scholars with a full commitment towards it, but that is pretty rare. It’s no indictment of Buddhism either. Not at all. The kind of guy who is self-interested enough and enough of a novelty/thrill seeker as to head off to a temple in Asia hasn’t got one single cerebral tract in his brain that is apt for true Buddhism. It’s a terrible fit. Some dullish sheet rock hanger… Read more »

Glenn
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Wow, so much great stuff here. In no particular order: Am I a Dancing Monkey for steer because I like steak and seek out steak on a regular basis? I think that there is a danger in conflating two separate ideas here. One is the frame, one’s mental point of origin and the second is our goal set. As I noted in my original post on this thread, there are some other psychological models that can help here. The entire idea of co-dependence makes the distinction nicely. The idea of having an internal locus of control versus an external locus… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn Kinda pisses me off when I run in to the kind of folks you’re describing that want to have some kind of psychological disorder so they can move up the victim hierarchy. They want the kind of problems I’ve had or you’ve had without any of the actual shit that went in to it. Utterly disgusting. I don’t want the problems I’m still working through. I want to be successful, happy, and free of this shit. It’s why self-improvement through brutal self-honesty has always been a thing for me. It’s why when I read TRP concepts I wasn’t so… Read more »

Glenn
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@Farfalla et all re: Buddhism – I have no experience outside of American buddhist centers etc – which I avoided for the most part. Inevitably there was some patchouli oil reeking, passive aggressive, scrawny betazoid who was at the top of the bizarre little pecking order which would emerge in the westernized settings, along with so many women “on their journey”, all so self absorbed when in fact. My ventures into spiritual Yoga, not just a workout, rather I went to a couple of “centers” etc – yikes, what a bunch of fucking pussies, I could never groove with it… Read more »

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@Sun – Very well said. And at the risk of tooting my horn or whatever, let me share this. Up until that rock climbing fall that threw my CPTSD into life wrecking overdrive? I was crushing it. I had done 15 years of fucking therapy to move beyond it. I quit drinking and using any substances, was in the process of writing my second book under the guidance of a real agent who believed he could get me published. I was going on adventures, making a quarter of a million or better a year, rock climbing, had a motorcycle, traveled… Read more »

Softek
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@ Glenn I always appreciate your sympathy for incels. I think I’ve finally come to terms with being an incel, but at the same time not over-identifying with it. What I mean here is that recognizing that I’m an incel has been a tremendous step in the right direction for me as far as self-esteem goes. Instead of identifying with my past in a self-limiting way, I’m identifying with it in a self-expanding way: The more I drill into myself that I’ve been through a lot, the easier it is for me to be ‘selfish.’ Being ‘selfish’ includes punching out… Read more »

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Glenn April 19th, 2015 at 8:29 am @CPTSD – M. Simon and others, I appreciate all the commentary. But I want to offer a strong note of caution. DO NOT SELF DIAGNOSE OR PLAY AMATEUR THERAPIST. One can have issues with sex abuse or being neglected or emotionally abused or physically abused and not have PTSD. PTSD haS very specific symptoms. Of course you can have issues and not have PTSD. That is because if you don’t have the genes the effects of the trauma don’t last. You forget. About 80% forget. About 20% remember. Of those about 1/2 get… Read more »

Glenn
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@ M. Simon – I’ve read articles on the genetic link and there seems to be a genetic pre-disposition but it’s early days yet, as with many genetic indicators of disease. The causal link is actually a bit flaky (serotonin underproduction – a million things can cause that), and superficial but it’s a strong lead nonetheless and perhaps it will yield help in terms of genetic replacement therapy or a better understanding of the neurology at work. That knowledge changes nothing about what to do though. See a competent professional who treats real PTSD sufferers and get evaluated and properly… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Softek
That last post is incredible I can relate one thing I do not to masturbate is wake up and move never lay still for any amount of time. Like Rollo said women want the loaded gun.

@Glenn
You know that anger you speak off I channel with violence in rugby.

@Sun Wukong
I can relate on the anger of people wanting names but not the problems that come with it.

Mad Yale Grad
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“And BTW PTSD runs in my family. And people with it are attracted to others similarly afflicted. It is very interesting stuff.”

But you’d have to go through a trauma to get it right? I mean “genetic” doesn’t mean you have it just like that, without experiencing any trauma, does it?

Mad Yale Grad
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Glenn, “This is why I kind of a hate the “alpha up” stuff. I reeks of Lake Wobegon thinking – that everyone can be above average. Nope – this is a zero sum game, and there are many men on the losing side of these sums. I think it’s much worse than ever given women’s aiming up and the self-reinforcing effects that has. Example: In NYC where the competition for the small number of alpha males is intense, it’s a fucking beauty contest just walking down the street. I mean, in some neighborhoods, the level of hotness is model quality… Read more »

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@Mad Yale Grad Environment plays a huge part. Certain people can have a decent life and than one triggers a genetic strain by stress and boom all hell breaks lose. It’s a theory of mine that this is in part why sexual violations are done by people the person know more often than not. We modify are version of humanity based on who we build are life around in a social way. It’s why for me the people who where curious with my body where close but ha their own thing happen to them. No one who goes into trauma… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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rugby, thank you for taking the time to reply so thoroughly.

“Environment plays a huge part. Certain people can have a decent life and than one triggers a genetic strain by stress and boom all hell breaks lose. It’s a theory of mine that this is in part why sexual violations are done by people the person know more often than not. ”

So you say some people who commit sexual assaults do so as a PTSD response to a stress trigger?

Ciacorps
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Reblogged this on ciacorps.

rugby11ljh
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@Mad Yale Grad It’s not that simple but that may play a part. When I look back at what really messed me up my dad would have porn on his computer that was almost all gay. Serious blue pill disaster from age 13 and up. Violence can come from repression. You are and will always be responsible for your actions. You can not blame your past or your mistakes on what has happened to you. You learn and if anything you realize least for me the red pill is self love. It’s a form of eternal equilibrium. Let’s say you… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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“It’s so hard for someone to know your intentions unless you are perhaps able to use the dark triad. ”
I meant have been able to gage based off your previous experience.
As of October 1, 2014 there were 57 women on death row. This constitutes 1.88% of the total death row population of 3,035 persons. (NAACP Legal Defense Fund). http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/5623/4
Tired and need rest I was wrong an many points on my previous post.

Mad Yale Grad
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“Both political party’s do not respect male alphaness even people in power who have access to so much sex aren’t immune to boundaries by their wives…” If they’ve taken vows of monogamy, why should they be? Alpha men who have access to so much sex, want to act on it and be immune to boundaries need to stay single, or at the very least have an open marriage from the get-go. If one wants to be poly, why take mono vows? “When I look back at what really messed me up my dad would have porn on his computer that… Read more »

Farfalla
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@Mad Yale Grad,

I haven’t been to NYC. Have you ever been overseas? I’m just surprised to hear America being described as a ‘beauty contest’ with models everywhere. ‘Brigades’ you said. I remember feeling that way when I lived in LA, but I had yet to live overseas at that point. Maybe NYC has its spots, but to describe the USA as herds of model quality women scrapping for the rare alpha male is about the dead opposite of how I would describe the USA. Different takes.

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@ Mad Yale Grad Started around 8 but things got weird from their. My dad wasn’t in the closet he just wasn’t coy about what was on his computer which was mostly males and less females. And yes I still have night terrors on those images. I try to mediate passed it but I am not good at that all the time usually person to person contact helps best. A good example of males I looked up to where in books. Side note one way to avoid violent rage in school and growing up was stay active physically and avoid… Read more »

TuffLuv
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@Glenn

“Maybe we coould make a Red Pill brigade who kidnap men when they get engaged ..”

The new bachelor party.. an 8 hour Divorcee’s Anonymous meeting full of men who’ve been through the meat grinder.

jeremy
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@mad Yale grad You seem like an intelligent person, and you remind me of many of the men on the manosphere – confused and indignant that real life does not seem like how things are “supposed to be.” If you took a personality test, you would likely test INTJ – like so many of the confused males here (and like myself). INTJ is the rarest type for females. Your comments about the zen of assortive mating are amusing – not because they should not be true (from the standpoint of social justice), but rather because they simply do not reflect… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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rugby, “My dad wasn’t in the closet he just wasn’t coy about what was on his computer which was mostly males and less females.” – OK well why was he watching gay male porn if he’s straight? farfalla, I was also perplexed by the claim NYC is full of model quality hotties. Been all over that city and while you do see a fair share of good looking women mixed in with your average and below average females, model quality hotties are not 1 in 3 or even 1 in 10 of the number of women you’ll pass in the… Read more »

Softek
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@ Mad Yale Grad I’m 25. I started doing it on my own, actually on my face. I just took a semi sharp piece of metal and kept scraping — it wasn’t a clean cut, by the time I broke through the skin it was a big mess and it ended up getting infected. I didn’t know what I was doing and I’d never heard of anyone else doing it. Although after I found out it was a thing that other people did, I started using razors. I didn’t know anyone else personally who did it though, and just read… Read more »

Softek
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Also, funny story:

I checked Tinder today and this girl shared a ‘moment.’

It said, ‘How many matches does it take for me to get off this damn thing?’ with a little emoticon at the end making a yawning face.

There was a crudely drawn arrow pointing up to the top of the screen, where it said:

“Search 2,023 matches.”

Mad Yale Grad
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Softek, I appreciate you sharing such personal and painful info about yourself, man. I wonder if your obsession with girls from an early age sprang from not having any deep relationships in your life with family or friends? I’ve travelled a lot and in cultures where family ties are strong and affectionate, I simply don’t see this early obsession with the opposite sex that you see in the USA. In many cultures the primary social outlet is the extended family, not “peers” or same aged “friends” from school. Kids don’t hate their parents, grandparents, aunts or uncles but love spending… Read more »

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@Mad Yale Grad He just found the male body fascinating. I don’t think porn has to be purely sexual I think for him the anatomy of the male body was more of an interest he would get rage filled and pissed if I mentioned anything about it. He use to hit me and stop and than their would be this intense hug of forgiveness that would really throw me a boder line personality I love get the fuck away from me. One thing to think about is that when people have issues with other people involving sex it’s always interesting… Read more »

hamster_wrestler
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@Glenn, I appreciate your candor on here. You certainky add to these discussions.

Softek
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@ Yale Grad “Running on Empty: Overcome Your Childhood Emotional Neglect” was very eye opening for me. And a lot of it resonated with the main thesis of “No More Mr. Nice Guy,” which is the book that got me into the manosphere, if I recall correctly. I distinctly remember liking girls and wanting to be around them well before I hit puberty or was even close to it. And I do think this has a lot to do with the environment at home that I grew up in. My dad was always too tired from work to do anything… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@mad Yale grad Contrast this with the worry of “getting laid” here in the States by kids who loathe going to visit their aunts and uncles and would rather stay home alone jerking off to porn or watching video games. (This is why I love my grand parents.) their emotional security is what allowed me to respect myself and family better. In France the burden of performance is expressed with care and cultural understanding however strong the FI is it can not take that away from males without admitting. To its sexual strategy. Dogs to also recognize performance and that… Read more »

Softek
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@ Rugby I found that I connected a lot better with my grandparents than anyone else in my family. When my grandpa died after having severe sudden onset dementia for 2 years, I kind of started to fall apart. He would talk to me on the phone and make jokes and make up stories. I remember that as young as 4 years old. On one of my early birthdays there was this stuffed monkey I wanted more than anything else that I saw at a store somewhere. My grandpa got it for me. I remember how happy I was when… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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“He just found the male body fascinating. I don’t think porn has to be purely sexual I think for him the anatomy of the male body was more of an interest he would get rage filled and pissed if I mentioned anything about it. He use to hit me and stop and than their would be this intense hug of forgiveness that would really throw me a boder line personality I love get the fuck away from me. One thing to think about is that when people have issues with other people involving sex it’s always interesting to look at… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Regarding all the liberal male “pussies” in western Buddhism and how twisted and watered down Buddhism appears over here, well you might be surprised to know that “westerners make better Buddhists than we do” is a common trope in Asian households. The reason for that is Asians see lay westerners going to all these retreats, trying to learn Pali and engage with the ancient texts, and really applying their intellect to Buddhism in a way that lay Buddhists in Asia do not because they rely on monks to do all that while they just engage in Buddhism in a cultural… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@Softek Hey brother don’t be hard on your self coming from me that isn’t saying much since self love is so hard for me. I can relate to you with your troubles. Nothing about is unique and never will be. What my grandfather did was teach me about a sense of manliness that is barely alive anymore. Here’s an example. He traveling across nazi occupied France to take my grandma out an a date. It took almost four hours to get their. What happened later he would be quit and very calm about but when he was sent to fight… Read more »

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@Mad Yale Grad My dad isn’t closeted he is very religious and the FI has destroyed any questioning of the affect of that. He works on body’s daily and you want he may be gay. My mom once blurted out how the condom slipped when I was born. It crushed me and didn’t talk for half a week after she mentioned that. My dad could be gay. When I bring that up I usualy get emotionally attacked severely. @Mad Yale Grad you have to think for him I wish I could email this all to him. I gave him rollos… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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rugby, “My dad isn’t closeted he is very religious”

What does religion have to do with it? There are a lot of religious and spiritual gay people. He may not be gay, he could be bi. Or he could be totally hetero. Or even primarily hetero with some bi-curiosity. What I’m saying is that there are still closeted homosexuals out there, even today, despite all the advances in gay rights and understanding. The example you gave strike me as being cases of closeted behavior, but maybe 1 or 2 of them are not.

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@Mad Yale Grad
I have a suspicion his bi just like my mother. All women are bi to some extent because of their x X chromosome and males having x and y
But than what? He isn’t hiding it on purpose except when religion and status comes to play. That however makes me wonder on how gay rights plays into the destruction of males learning game in response to be tolerate individuals. Good point @Mad Yale Grad

Farfalla
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@Mad Yale Grad, Oh, so Glenn said it (the observation of all the desperate female models in NYC). I think I got mixed up in the re-quoting going on with the posts. Well whoever said it doesn’t matter, really. I just thought it was an interestingly different take and a take that screams; “Get a passport!” With all due respect. And was it also Glenn that talked about a very real commitment to Buddhism? That’s cool and respectable. I always thought ‘real Buddhism’ seemed incredibly demanding, glamorless and legit. The ‘Let’s go hiking with cool jade pendants and get stoned… Read more »

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@Rollo What do you think of guys who have insanely high physical standard that they prefer porn to sex unless the woman is really hot say an 8. Also I know you also mentioned Alpha males who can’t get laid in your McQueen interview. I have belonged to both categories above in my life, I had to lower my physical standards to 4-5 to get upto what a PUA would categorise as a fairly average notch count of over 10. I don’t measure my self worth with it but I did it as a new experience. I hope you do… Read more »

Xtianity
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typo.. I meant *hate gym-ing

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo A-fucking-men. Every time women complain about men’s standards, I ask when they last pined for a fat, sweaty, neckbearded, basement-dwelling loser living in his mom’s basement with no hope for the future, no car, no job, and nothing but video games to talk about. Needless to say I get no takers. Then I ask when they last pined for a mid 30s dude with a slight paunch, the beginnings of male pattern balding, an average job, looks, and life. Again no takers. Ask for a woman who’s reasonably attractive, not fat, and not a bitch however and you’re asking… Read more »

Farfalla
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@Xtianity,

Where do you live? Could be a HUGE factor that doesn’t get enough acknowledgement in most of these conversations. It gets touched on here and there, but to me it’s nearly everything.

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@Xtianity. April 20th, 2015 at 10:05 pm Having a desire to date, have a STR or LTR with an 8 should be regarded as idealistic and normal. Not abnormal or “revert to porn” if high SMV women don’t recipricate. But of course, as life is, it depends on your own SMV. If you are a 5 or 6, fucking 4s or 5s should be the norm. Getting with an 8 may be a pipe dream. Don’t discount MMV for an Epiphany phase woman. Your SMV can be improved, but only so much. You cannot delude yourself to think your SMV… Read more »

Farfalla
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@Sun, Spot on. My friends and I have often discussed the reverse gender scenarios as far as ease of which one can become a female 8 minimum in America. -Grow your hair to your waist -Indulge in physical hobbies like hiking, golf, swimming, cycling, fairly casual barbell work (no need to get bigger or much stronger) -Don’t be an extraordinary cunt. -Satisfying adult’s version of a diet. Indulgences allowed but just stay in the adult realm. Simple That gets a woman an international male 10 easily. What if you (as a guy) woke up tomorrow and had it that easy?… Read more »

Xtianity
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True – I should have mentioned I have a scale which differs from the popular one which is why an 8 for me would at times be a 6 or a sometimes a 9 to most people given I like thick busty women. The extremes of super-skinny women (even if most consider them 10s) and even marginally fat women like 90% of plus size models just don’t do it for me. My oneitis ironically was a super-skinny girl I had known from my teens, the best sex I had with her was when she had put on a bit of… Read more »

Xtianity
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@sjfrellc I live in the NorthEast (not midwest) in NYC. Latina women are too trashy for me because that question often comes up. So their lower social status could be an additional issue given I come from a wealthy slightly religious Catholic family with class superiority implicitly ingrained by my parents although I don’t like snobbery when my peers exhibit it. Most of my friends in mid 30s got married the old fashioned way and have had mostly monogamous sex prior to it. [Sorry if I am humble-bragging in my last paragraph] There are some Russian and British women (never… Read more »

Xtianity
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sorry my repy was to Farfalla!

Farfalla
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@sjfrellc, Good advice. That could be a great Rollo essay, being realistic about one’s own SMV range. Improve it, yeah, but be realistic. Making a mistake here is just flat wasted time. Looking back, that was my downfall. I let my social need to be in the upper ranges really skew my view of myself. I just had to be in those upper ranges. It HAD to be that way and I was almost sociopathically not reading how I was being perceived by women. Missed out on some busty, leggy 7 butterfaces that I really should have had fun with.… Read more »

Farfalla
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@xtianity,

You should think about how much your social/class concerns are screwing up your dating. Anyone put off by Latinas needs some kind of recalibration, imo. I’m not trying to attack here, because I used to make similar mistakes, somewhat referenced above. Silver dollars are silver dollars. Ass is ass. Get more of a physical focus and don’t look for the ensemble completion piece of a partner on your arm. That’s what women do.

That’s my advice. But if your social concerns are undeniable then I can’t help you.

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