Dancing Monkeys

Dance Monkey

From the Unbearable Triteness of Hating:

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.

Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

After this week’s post the expected debate of who are you really being you for came up. In managing your expectations in accord with the reality of women’s nature there’s always going to be some indignation for needing to do so. The perception of having to cater to the whims needs of women in order to broker some reward that’s never going to be an equitable trade is not only senseless, but it pisses off men who spend an inordinate amount of time and effort to better themselves for themselves and not be appreciated for it.

I’m cursed with a broad spectrum of interests, passions and hobbies. At the risk of glossing myself, I’ve been blessed with a lot of natural gifts and talents, and I developed the skills to better enjoy them, to profit from them and to explore things I simply find fascinating. For the greater part I don’t do these things for me, but rather because I’m genuinely curious and interested in them. I didn’t get into competitive fencing in college because I thought chicks would dig it. Nor did I pick up the sport as some “doing it for me” personal validation – it just looked like a hell of a lot of fun and even when I have my ass handed to me I still enjoy it to this day.

The outcome of having developed those competitive skills combined with the physical prowess I also developed, provided some side benefits to my enjoying fencing, lifting, martial arts and all of the other sports I’ve engaged in over the years. The good peripheral rewards are fairly obvious when it comes to physical interests, but I have hobbies and artistic pursuits that would probably surprise even my readers here.

I use those to my benefit in my personal and professional life, but some are most definitely not the things women would be drawn to in a guy. Of course, I don’t really care, but that doesn’t erase the preconceptions women (or anyone really) have of those interests. It’s easy to say, “well, that’s just me, take it or leave it”, but the fact remains that there are always going to be things you like that will never be an attraction for women – in fact, they’re likely to be an obstacle to attraction.

The Intelligence Paradox

There’s a subset of Blue Pill men who’ve bought into the social advertising that women find intelligent men more attractive. Attractive for long-term security and dependability as a provider? Yes. Arousing as a Hypergamous sexual prospect? Doesn’t matter. The Feminine Imperative likes to promote the ‘intelligence is sexy’ meme so as to have better prepared providers dutifully waiting for women once they’ve had their bad boys and are ready to cash out of the SMP.

That’s kind of bitter medicine for men who’ve invested themselves in intellectual interests they were at one time genuinely fascinated by. Once the imperative takes what it can benefit most from those interests and labels it ‘sexy’ they cease to be genuine fascinations and places them into the realm of sexual attractions. The question then becomes “Who are you really doing this thing for? To be a better prospect for women, or do you do it for you?”

Most intelligent men eventually come to realize that their interests simply aren’t sexy to women; if anything those pursuits usually become an insufferable bore to women. While the idea of a ‘hawt’ intelligent lover is appealing to the female hindbrain, the application of that intelligence is another thing entirely. Hypergamy doesn’t care about your grasp of philosophy, your love of mathematics, your Master’s degree in political science or that you can recognize impressionist painters from cubists. Hypergamy does care about your capacity to apply that intelligence in the service and fleeting contentment of women.

The opportunistic side of Hypergamy might enjoy the benefits that intelligence generates for a woman’s security, but your intelligence itself is not ‘sexy’. If intelligence by itself were a sexual predictor guys like Stephen Hawking wouldn’t find women to be “such mysteries.”

Unfortunately for most men this realization only comes after they’ve played to the script the Feminine Imperative had set for them and they’ve committed themselves to a woman he believed found his beautiful mind so attractive.

I detailed a bit of this dynamic in Compatibility:

However, I do think the desire of finding a common interest prior to, or in order to hook up with women is an interesting one. The MGTOW crowd will of course use this as a prime illustration of how men autonomously shape themselves to the ideals of women. And in the terms of living in the feminine reality they’d be right. You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. If she cannot realize a tangible result that benefits her – or by way of her, the potential “family” or the “relationship” – your effort is pointless and frivolous in contrast to engaging her, entertaining her or relating with her. Again we see the hypergamous feminine imperative of girl-world. If it’s not directly benefiting women, it’s not benefiting humanity in general.

It’s easy to apply this dynamic to something that’s directly relatable to women’s arousal/sexual interests. I covered this in Crisis of Motive; men ostensibly lift weights for their own personal validation – they do it for them – but when it’s obvious that a man can leverage that motivation and good physique to arouse women that’s when his motives become suspect:

I can’t recall how many times I’ve heard guys at Gold’s tell me the same thing as to why they workout.

“I do it for me! Yeah, of course, chicks check me out more now that I’ve dropped the fat and bulked up, but this is all for me man.”

I’ll admit, I was that guy at one time. For a guy it makes sense to cop the story of singularity of purpose since it implies that he’s his ‘own man’ and not improving himself to become more acceptable to the women he observably and admittedly wants to get with. This is the paradox of self-improvement – are you doing it for yourself or because you want to others to respond more positively to you? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both.

When your personal interests can be directly relatable to attracting women that is when your motives will come under scrutiny. Saying I enjoy reading books on astrophysics in my leisure time wouldn’t draw the same suspicions of my motives as my saying I’ve been a bodybuilder for most of my life because I just enjoy it and like to maintain my health.

Thoroughbred had a good comment about this:

JCL – “If I didn’t know any better I’d think the Red Pill is feminism for men, even though women are shit you still have to perform under the new agenda.”
See…

This is the subtle distinction where I think most of us get it drastically wrong. There is a huge chasm between performing for a woman and performing for yourself. Hell, I’m still guilty of the former at times still, but I at least recognize it now and am doing a better job of putting myself at the center of the frame rather than a woman. A woman’s love, attention, loyalty (such as it exists), empathy, sympathy, etc. are all *byproducts* of a man who unapologetically takes care of himself, his needs, his desires first. Here’s what I’m getting at… Flip the script on each of these:

“Women want alphas – become a top tier man.” — Become a top tier man for YOURSELF and only for YOURSELF. Women’s attention, loyalty, etc. will be the byproduct of you putting yourself at the center of the frame.

“Women want promiscuous sex – plate them.” — I’m married and was as blue pill as they come before discovering these hallowed halls two years ago. So, this one is modified for the married set.

Bottom line: Sex with wife sucked for years. Rollo’s concept of dread game has literally saved my marriage, but again there’s a subtle and very important distinction. When I initially conceptualized dread game it was with my wife in the center of the frame (in other words “If I use dread on the wife, she’ll want to fuck me more”). The results were meh. However, when I put MYSELF in the center of the frame as in “If I were suddenly single tomorrow how quickly could I get laid?”, the results were dramatic. The difference is this: In the first scenario I was counting on my actions causing a change in someone else (the wife). In the second scenario, my actions caused a radical change in MYSELF and in my conceptualization of myself.

Thoroughbred speaks to two issues here. A Man must place himself as his own Mental Point of Origin. In doing so he prioritizes himself as his primary importance which women find attractive, but you see the dual nature of this prioritization. Thoroughbred making himself his first priority has the effect of improving his life from an overall personal perspective and has the effect of attracting / arousing female interest in him. Does it matter what’s motivated that change in his performance?

Men must perform; and even when they’re performing as the result of genuine curiosity and interest they will make an impression on women. You cannot remove yourself from the Game. There’s a misnomer that Red Pill advocates believe all men need do is be good looking, aloof and let women come to them, but the truth is that even if you’re not approaching you’re still performing, you’re still presenting a presence that women (and other men) will evaluate.

The genuineness of your motive is only realized by you. One thing I addressed in Just Be Yourself is the you others would like to make of you:

We are who we say we are

We can alter our own personalities and have them altered by our conditions or any combination of the two, but to suggest that personality is static is a falsehood. The trap is to think that altering personality is in anyway disingenuous – there are certainly teriffic ‘actors’ or ‘poseurs’, and the like, that when we are confronted with them we sense (or even know) that they are pushing an envelope that they may not be entirely comfortable with, but there is merit to a ‘fake it till you make it’ doctrine. We only percieve it as being ‘false’, ‘superficial’ or as “trying to be something your not” when we have a concept or knowledge of a previous set of personality behaviors. If you met a likable cocky-funny guy at a club this weekend, how are you to know whether he’s the real deal or stretching the limits of his personality if you’ve never met him before?

If you have a look at the picture I used for my post Idealism you can get an idea of how men and women experience their existence. This masterfully encapsulates the mental directions of the genders. For men’s part, it’s their outward looking interests and curiosity that not only make them better Men, but also makes them attractive. Their attractiveness is a byproduct of a curiosity that is indifferent to the inward, self-importance of women.

As I’ve repeated many times, women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life never the focus of it. This is because women’s focus is primarily on themselves and once your primary focus becomes women they quickly lose interest. Men’s attractiveness lies in the results of that outward facing fascination that excludes women from its attention.

Focus on the things you genuinely find interesting, not the personal validation you think they represent. Saying you do things for you only echoes the self-importance of women’s self-focus. It alludes to a desire to be perceived as more attractive for a self-conscious awareness.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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D. Horrenbrand
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“Who are you really doing this thing for? To be a better prospect for women, or do you do it for you?” – True. If you are doing something to be a better prospect for them, you already lost the game. I do exercise, it gives me a nice high (also doing cold showers- when you mix the two the high is immense :)) and even if at the beginning it was because I wanted to gain more confidence in myself, there were thoughts in my head connecting good looks with higher sexual value, but I’d say that’s natural. We… Read more »

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feeriker
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Hypergamy doesn’t care about your grasp of philosophy, your love of mathematics, your Master’s degree in political science or that you can recognize impressionist painters from cubists. Hypergamy does care about your capacity to apply that intelligence in the service and fleeting contentment of women.

Rollo’s Immutable Rule Number … ?

Johnny Bits
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“You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. ”

I’m an avid meditator and spiritual development is the primary focus of my life.

It’s amazing to watch how this interest fascinates women in the courtship phase, only to be viewed as a waste of time after the period of idealization comes to an end.

Allen
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Allen
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an appropriate song for this post:

Bluepillprofessor
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Great Rollo, now I have to do a minor rewrite on my book “A Man’s Guide to Dread, Seduction and the Long Game” which I can see now was largely written from a dancing monkeys frame.

Hobbes
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Anything any human being every does is with themselves in the center. Unless you were beaten, enslaved or coerced violently to perform some action, you were doing it for yourself. It’s impossible not to. A guy says he lifts weight to get chicks and because his gf likes it. Well, despite his assertion, he is doing it for himself- he wants chicks, he wants to to be wanted, he wants something for himself, and so performs. A man hands over his paycheck to his wife, he sacrifices his time and his health and happiness to do so. He claims he… Read more »

D. Horrenbrand
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@Johnny Bits *It’s amazing to watch how this interest fascinates women in the courtship phase, only to be viewed as a waste of time after the period of idealization comes to an end.* I’d say it goes with every ‘profession’ whether you’re a DJ, painter or a zen buddhist. Re spiritual development- females are attracted towards ppl who are into that because they count on getting something out from it- on the spiritual level. They want it through easy way but when they found out development and wisdom isn’t something they can just ‘hear from somebody as a one wise… Read more »

Hobbes
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@Dr and Johnny- lol. Yes they are. It does seem that women think fucking a guy with some attribute will instill that attribute within them.
“I’m fucking a spiritual mediator- I am spiritual”
“I’m fucking a rock star- I’m a creative artist”
“I’m fucking a bad boy with a Harley- I’m a badass”
“I’m fucking a rich guy- I’m rich” Well, that last one might end up true of the dude marries her!

Sun Wukong
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@Hobbes This insistence and obsession with “its all about me”, as I said in the last thread is fairly juvenile First you said it was impossible for a man to make it all about him, now you extoll how all actions are selfish and shame it as juvenile to embrace that fact openly. Which is your opinion? Can a person make it all about them or not? Are you going to shame them for something you think they can’t actually do, or are you shaming them because they can? If you think the fact that I mention it as part… Read more »

Fred Flange, MansLaughter
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Know this history well: sometime ago I was with an almost-fiance. I had gotten a bit of success in music (enough to keep doing it for awhile sometime after). I originally met her at a gig. Then one day she says I ought to really “grow up” and be more responsible in pushing my “real” career. Blue pill as I was then, that demand really ate at me. And I ignored it. As it turned out soon she became an ex-fiance. Thankfully. The guy she left me for and married was a private pilot, had a nice small plane. She… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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It’s also possible that there’s a mismatch in terminology here and we’re largely speaking of the same thing, but I don’t think that’s the case. When I’m told that the mental shift I’ve made that has improved my circumstances greatly hasn’t actually happened, my reaction is one of complete incredulity. Yes, it has happened. Yes, those around me have noticed a shift in who I am. Yes, women and men both have actually reacted better to me as I’ve followed a path towards Enlightened Self Interest through both awareness and the consequential shift in my mental point of origin. At… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . it just looked like a hell of a lot of fun . . .”

There ya go.

Nathan
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Wow Rollo. This is a big one.

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo I agree with what you’re saying and it’s in fact how I reflect on my own actions (hence the reason the “you’d stop working out tomorrow if chicks didn’t find it attractive” argument annoys the hell out of me), but I’m having a hard time seeing why summing that series of thoughts up with the statement of “I do it for myself” is inaccurate unless you’re assuming “for myself” is always about validation. I suppose it can be about validation in some contexts (“I’m doing this for myself so I can prove that I’m a man“), but for me… Read more »

Hobbes
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@Sun- The part that I am trying to call basically impossible- if not just extremely undesirable and unnecessary- is the part of “it’s all about me” that pretends it doesn’t give a fuck about how it plays out in life, or that the results aren’t part of the motivation to things. Now, despite accusations, I never meant that if you like to do the Sunday crossword, you were doing it for results. What I was aiming at were people on one hand sayin “I don’t give a fuck what women think about x,y,z” Then turning right around and saying “And… Read more »

Hobbes
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To try and clarify (look, I know I’m not as clear a writer as Rollo)- When I hear “I am doing it for me now!” this is what I think 1. this person has yet to realize they have always done it for themselves 2. this person is trying to blow smoke as if he, once upon a time was some selfless Buddha 3. Now he’s shouting out some empty, meaningless slogan because he is obviously still seeking external validation, while pretending he is not. 4- and this is the worst part for me- it’s the idea that one has… Read more »

Hobbes
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@Sun- one more thing (sorry, I know, I ramble) Alot of this is coming from my initial reaction to Rollos idealism post which ruffled some feathers here- Mine and Glenns most notably. I have been putting alot of thought into it and I get it more now. I was angry because I was trying to abandon my innate and natural idealism, so when he mentions mens idealsim being somehow beneficial I reacted negatively.. Secondly, listening to Rollos interview when he spoke about his wife- you can hear it in his voice- it was cool- he loves her, he cares.. he’s… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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“I’m the crab trying to keep you down and shit”

No, you’ve just got yourself all wound up about something. It happens.

Hobbes
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@kfg- actually I was just defending my viewpoint- which then got me accused of being a crab,

bookooball
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You’re interest in spirituality will still fascinate her if she’s equally yoked. I suggest you join a hippie community where spirituality is the endgame for them all.

Glenn
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Great stuff but let me offer a different angle from psychology that I’d love to hear Rollo integrate/compare with his “point of mental origin” concept. As those who pay attention to my whinging here know I was abused and had other childhood traumas growing up. There are numerous impacts of that but one of them is developing a “codependent” identity. In a sense, it’s an outcome of the hypervigilance any long term victim of abuse develops as an adaptive response to his/her environment. Since I was always having to be vigilant when my Dad was around, and s teacher, and… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Reposting because I want answers. I used to think “good guys” only rewarded baby mamas with occasional sex (if they got the chance) but I increasingly see that they reward them with commitment, emotional investment, time, money, and everything. Things that should be going to their own assortive mating equals – the child-free good girl who played by the rules. I heard there was one a time when parents could tell their daughters, “Don’t sleep around and get knocked up by bad boys because then you’ll never get a good guy to wife you up”. Is that true? Because it… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Hobbes Just because some use it as an empty slogan does not invalidate its use as a properly structured english sentence to express an idea, hence the reason I say it. It sums up the changes I have made in a way that I don’t have to write paragraph after paragraph or even tell short stories to illustrate. Perhaps consider the source and the context before judging the usage. TL;DR: I ain’t sloganeering if I’m simply using the english language to express an abstract thought, so stop accusing me of it. Now to your other points: 1) & 2) While… Read more »

Thoroughbred
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Hobbes… You’re getting way deep in the weeds here with the whole “doing it for yourself” discussion I think. Look the point I was simply trying to make is that when I began focusing on what makes ME happy (unapologetically) rather than my happiness being dependent on external validation, I became happier… Full stop. With wife, with kids, with colleagues. I’m not bragging or sloganeering at all, because the truth is I have a long way to go myself. Yes I still too often seek external validation, but at least now I can analyze my motives more clearly. And I… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Johnny Bits April 17th, 2015 at 1:42 pm “You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. ” I’m an avid meditator and spiritual development is the primary focus of my life. It’s amazing to watch how this interest fascinates women in the courtship phase, only to be viewed as a waste of time after the period of idealization comes to an end. ——————— Ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod Johnny Bits read my comment above!!!! I see a lot of spiritual… Read more »

Thoroughbred
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“I get a sense in alot of comments here and in the manoshpere where guys just play victim all the time.. as if when they were betas kissing ass, paying out money buying gifts, paying bills etc etc, that they were some victims and somehow pure as driven snow and so self sacrificial- as if they weren’t behaving in a blue pill beta fashion exactly because they thought, and were told, that it would get them something.” By the way, you’re exactly right about this. That’s the “covert contract” point I was making above. It’s fundamentally dishonest, and it’s why… Read more »

kfg
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kfg
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” . . . actually I was just defending my viewpoint . . .” Certainly. Defence is the most common reason for men to get all wound up about something. Wound up enough that after some pages of your writing I am only now starting to get a clear image of your position. Now I’m about to go out and spend some time doing something that has been one of my chief joys since I was a preschool child. Something that most women, at best, think is a waste of time, and at worst are threatened by, as it’s brought… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Hobbes

I’m the crab trying to keep you down and shit

Don’t try to run that line on me. It won’t work.

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn

Maybe we coould make a Red Pill brigade who kidnap men when they get engaged and deprogram them, for their own good, so they actually have a chance at a good marriage and family life?

They’d mostly wind up like the visitor we had a couple weeks back. “She’s really obviously turning me in to her BB, wedding off.”

Not that it would be a bad thing, mind you.

Hobbes
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@Sun and Thoroughbred- what you guys are describing is much more real that before.. and that is a million times more clear. Whoever coined “its about me” should be shot, because what you guys are describing is a totally different phenomena. I, like you Sun, and Glenn, am the victim of abuse. I wasn’t allowed to dissent and as Glenn says, always had a dependence on others emotional states. But breaking free from that was about finding my identity and defending myself and my borders. What you guys are describing is that. Hell, it’s much more accurate to say “I’m… Read more »

Hobbes
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@Sun- “I’m the crab trying to keep you down and shit Don’t try to run that line on me. It won’t work.” lol. Dude, stop acting like a bitch. You have been jumping on my ass for like a day now- all for a comment that was never even aimed at you- you just took it right up your ass as if it was and came out firing insults like I killed your puppy. If you can’t handle being questioned, then STFU. All of us have posted perspectives here and have been challenged and called on them. Thats what goes… Read more »

Fred Flange, MansLaughter
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I’ve seen lots of nice guys wife up baby mamas. Some of the marriages took; some exploded spectacularly. I would have thought the cramped thinking behind why nice guys are compelled to do this would be obvious by now: the societal conditioning to “do it for the good of society/the family”, “the kids deserve a father which their bio-dad isn’t”, “the church/my family thinks it’s a good match”, “these articles I’m reading tell me this is what real men should do”, “she’s nice and at least is giving me the time of day plus some poonani, which the other women… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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Damn right.

PartyTimeMentats! (@PartyTimeMentat)
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Here’s the problem: I hate doing things that would make me more attractive. I’m overweight. Obese really. I hate exercising and eating healthy. I have no interest in it. Don’t really care how long I live. The only reason I’d do that is to get women. But what would I want what amounts to a shit sandwich? What I want from women is unrealistic and a fantasy. What I can actually get doesn’t seem worth the effort. The BP media is telling me I can have a Ferrari and really all I can get is a Pinto that doesn’t even… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Sun Wukong, “It’s impossible to spin plates without some degree of emotional detachment; do you really think you can next a plate with tears in her eyes while giving a shit how she feels?” Why would you want to engage in that level of sociopathy in the first place? Rather than leading someone on to think she has a chance at an actual relationship when she doesn’t, the righteous thing to do is to make it clear from the beginning that the situation is open, polyamorous and and there is absolutely no chance of anything else. So while you are… Read more »

Glenn
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@Hobbes @Sun – This doesn’t feel like such a “safe space” – do you guys need some conflict mediation? Or perhaps anger management? Lol, men love to argue, it’s true. I just love the way you guys are going at it. My Friday night plans just cancelled, I’ve got a busy weekend, maybe I’ll just pop some popcorn and sit back and check this out. Great stuff guys, I’m learning a ton. It’s great to watch you guys actually effect each other’s arguments and refine and parry and punch. It’s like Friday Night Fights (as an art, not the feminized… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Hobbes

your all bent out of shape.

Check your projection, sir.

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn

Gym. I’m done now.

Mad Yale Grad
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Fred Flange, I hear ya but its not the desperate men without options wifing up the baby mamas I see. Some are good-looking, popular guys who do well with women and do have choices. There are a few who are compromised in some way and I understand their options are limited but the situations they took on are…. extreme to put it lightly. I’m not going into details here but they are situations men in most cultures around the world would never dream of looking twice at. And when there are plenty of baggage free women out here looking for… Read more »

Hobbes
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Glenn- The entertainment value is fading- as his latest responses have devolved to one liners. I actually love Sun, for some reason this issue has brought out the personal attacks from him. We’ve all been there. I’d say go to the gym, this is pretty much done, lol. Glad you enjoyed it though. BTW, look up cptsd. From your comments I think alot of it applies to you. Definitely did for me- and even more than TRP, learning about it really helped me out a ton. Wish I had known about it much younger as well. I’d suggest it to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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On a different note, I’ve been debating doing a roundtable-ish thing on an anonymous TeamSpeak server to try and get a bunch of dudes from here together to actually talk. I’m only thinking an hour or two once a month, we record and share it as sort of a pod cast on the side. I wasn’t sure if Rollo would mind or how much interest there would be, but I figured at least the regulars might be interested. Yes, even you Hobbes. I’m not as “bent out of shape” as you seem to think. Anyway, if there’s interest let me… Read more »

Jeremy
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With this post, Rollo illustrates that nerdism is actually a part of masculinity, never the feminine. There is no such thing as a female nerd. Only men become obsessively interested in something (oftentimes the absurdly obscure). I don’t find this a failing, though I’ve read a number of fantastic arguments against nerdism in game blogs that I (mostly) agree with. Men are the passionate sex, so much so that they can literally get lost in their own passion. Your passion is actually extremely attractive to women, but in order for that to be so it has to be a mature… Read more »

Hobbes
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@Sun- I’d jump at the chance. I’ve often wanted to say something about meeting some of the people here in some way, but thought it was inappropriate. Glenn is in NYC I believe, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wanted to get a beer with the guy. Glenn would be a trip.
If you’ll have me, I’d be delighted

kfg
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“– do you guys need some conflict mediation?”

Where’s Kate?

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Sun It’s impossible to spin plates without some degree of emotional detachment; do you really think you can next a plate with tears in her eyes while giving a shit how she feels? It is certainly possible. It just takes self-discipline, emotional regulation, and adherence to your own frame and purpose. Personally, I have loved a few women deeply, yet had to “next” them because their behavior was not compatible with a healthy lifestyle or relationship. It was a very difficult emotional experience for the both of us. I gave “a shit” about how they felt, to the point… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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This is one of the best posts yet. It clearly defines the benefit of acquiring and maintaining an outward mental perspective which ties directly into “just getting it” and being in control of ones life to the greatest extent possible. When someone asks why you body build, write poetry, race bikes, study astrophysics, etc, the only healthy answer is “BECAUSE I WANT TO” period. Any other answer exposes a weakness, an acquiescence to being subjugated by an authority other than yourself. Who the fuck are they to question you? You owe no explanation or excuse for your endeavors to anyone… Read more »

kfg
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” . . . the only healthy answer is “BECAUSE I WANT TO” period.”

Sometimes it is “None of your business.”

Jeremy
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@Hobbes Anything any human being every does is with themselves in the center. Hobbes, haven’t read the full exchange yet, don’t know if this addresses your whole point, but it was your first sentence. I had to say that’s not entirely accurate. There’s a subtlety there that has implications. I would revise that to say: Anything that any human being ever does is, by their own individual ability to perceive their own needs, with themselves in the center. Not everyone is as perceptive of their own needs as they need to be, for countless reasons. So yes, while people act… Read more »

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@Hobbes So when I hear guys here carrying on about how they are now “doing it for themselves” I think, “and who the fuck do you think you were doing it for all along?” I think, to a degree you are ignoring a portion of blue pill deception. The blue pill tries to convince men that they will be rewarded for self-sacrifice. The blue pill preys on mens inborn sense of self-sacrifice, and their love of reason to convince millions of men that doing things for others is noble and will eventually give them what they want. You can argue,… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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The Zen of Assortive Mating 101

1. The rightful match for a divorced mom of 2 is the divorced dad of 2.

2. The rightful match for the male plate spinner is the female plate spinner.

3. The rightful match for the never-married multiple baby-mama is the never-married multiple baby-daddy bad boy player.

4. The rightful match for the child-free, responsible, monogamous woman is the child-free, responsible monogamous good guy.

All of society’s problems spring from mixing up the above.

Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong

On a different note…

Honestly, I think I’d rather hop on a plane and find a quiet bar than use teamspeak. Note that I am not expressing opposition to your thought, rather I’m being a snob and wanting a physical “mens club” much as was more typical 150 years ago.

bo jangles
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Russian girls seem to be genuinely turned on by intelligence(and turned off by the lack of it). I think the most women in general are more turned on by artistry(a form of intelligence) especially art that evoke emotion or improves appearance. This is why rock stars can be old and broken down, and still have their choice of hotties. I’m much less muscular than I was when I was 25 but I get more looks and more women tell me I’m sexy now. I think it has to do with my developed sense of style and experience. Also social intelligence… Read more »

kfg
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“The Zen of Assortive Mating 101”

Because men and women are socks.

Hobbes
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@Jeremy- “Anything that any human being ever does is, by their own individual ability to perceive their own needs, with themselves in the center.” I have no problem with this at all, yes, I agree. Yes, the judgement- or the information the judgement is based on is fundamentally flawed, but the drive is towards themselves in the center. “so why call blue and purple-pill men out for something they do not yet understand the folly of?” Well, in that argument, I was arguing with people who are decidedly not BP. I don’t consider the guys here to be BP, so… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Rollo, I’m reposting my comment to that link here; “She sounds very rational. She realizes many men would be worried about engaging with her because of her baggage and the assumption she wants a new hubby and father. She doesn’t want that. She simply wants a friend with benefits and she’s honest about it. She also doesn’t want her kids exposed to the guy and that’s a very good sign of a conscientious mother. She was married so she’s not a “baby mama”. Her husband eventually cheated on her and abused her so she divorced him. Another example of good… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Hobbes So, the problem is with Red Pill men saying, “I’m doing this for me” ? Isn’t that forgivable though? Most guys here, as RP as they may be, used to operate under a regime where they were led to believe that you should just do things for women, because you’ll be rewarded. I’ve found myself saying those words, and honestly as corny as this sounds, it actually helps my mental state to do so. It reinforces the fact that I used to believe the bullshit that women were angels who rewarded men for virtue, and now I know that… Read more »

Tin Man
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@Rollo thanks for this one. I’ve been struggling recently – and had to write a post today about allowing yourself to become an Old Pair of Shoes – it’s so easy to “forget” all this stuff, and slip into the void again.

Seraph
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“You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. If she cannot realize a tangible result that benefits her – or by way of her, the potential “family” or the “relationship” – your effort is pointless and frivolous in contrast to engaging her, entertaining her or relating with her.” Sometimes they can’t even help themselves when it WOULD benefit family, relationship, with tangible benefits if it conflicts with what they want NOW. Working in one job which I hated, which… Read more »

Nathan
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Titus 2:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
__________________

There is a reason this has to to taught

Glenn
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@Hobbes – I was diagnosed with CPTSD in 2009, finally after being misdiagnosed for years (i have at least three “qualifying events” by age 8). I ended up starting to pass out in 2005 and was hospitalized for it. It turns out my rock climbing fall in 2002 triggered the PTSD it into hyperspace. I had it somewhat managed before that injury to not let it debilitate me through lots of therapy. I quit drinking at 33 too, so I was forced to deal with how I was medicating with booze. I decided at that age to go have the… Read more »

Johnny Bits
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@Rollo Thanks for link. Not sure how I missed that one when I was reading your whole blog a couple years back. I think the modern apex of that tendency is astrology. It’s rare that I start a new relationship without the woman bringing up the compatibility of our signs within the first few weeks. @Hobbes & Dhorrenbrand You guys are right. A lot of these girls express aspirations to develop a meditative practice of their own. Of course this never happens… A few months in, once they realize what I do is no more glamorous than sitting in silence… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy “A man can have all the feelings and empathy in the world – but as a leader, he cannot let those feeling sway his frame or focus from what is productive, healthy, and correct. So, a man must simply be stronger and more disciplined than his feelings, if he wants to both feel and be successful.” Great stuff here. As I’ve progressed with the red pill, I’ve found myself gravitating away from plate spinning and towards relationships. Not necessarily longterm, heavily committed relationships, and certainly not marriage, but relationships nonetheless, with genuine feelings and emotions. I find… Read more »

Ang Aamer
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I’m sure the discussion is going another way But I just wanted to note: I have always thought that a girl demanding changes is a man’s lifestyle while in a Long Term Relationship, is nothing more than a test for control. And the interesting thing is women in this situation are very cat like. Once the mouse does what they want and just lays there… they lose interest. With an ex-fiance I actually fought hard for a couple of hobbies I enjoyed. After college I figured well I’m engaged I could give up one and that will make her happy…… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Solipsism Today at lunch a very small man walked into Chipotle. He was about 4’6″ to 4’8″‘ tall and weighed maybe 110 lbs. everything about him appeared proportional and normal except his overall size. He was not formed like a midget, just much smaller than typical. Two women were dining across from me and one of them noticed him. She nudged her companion and pointed to him and said, “Look at that little man”. The other saw him, covered her mouth, bugged her eyes out and said, “Oh my god, Oh my god, Oh my god,”. “He’s so little”. They… Read more »

Jeremy
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Hah, I hadn’t seen this one. I really should catch up on SMBC

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3688

Not Born This Morning
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http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3688

Another male shaming trope perhaps?

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@Sun Count me in Speaking of dancing monkeys First thing to really get me thinking of males performing. One thing I’ve come to learn about myself is people with good intentions even myself included aren’t always the best to hear things from. Not that it’s not important to help others but sometimes unless you are willing to help yourself first the person you are being guilted in helping may come out worse. People can only love you as much as you love yourself and develope a heathy sense of who you are. That’s what I see as frame. A reference… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Jeremy, “There is no such thing as a female nerd. Only men become obsessively interested in something (oftentimes the absurdly obscure)” – Female nerds are out here. Obsessively so. I don’t know how many men would find that attractive in a mate though. Again, I’m seeing good guys, even nerds, wife up baby mamas instead of female nerds (who tend not to be baby mamas). Johnny Bits, “I think the examples you see of spiritual guys wifing up single moms is a result of the proliferation of beta posers in the spiritual scene.” – I don’t know. The men I’m… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Mad Yale Grad

Female nerds are out here. Obsessively so….

I have *never* seen a woman with an obsessive obscure interest that she enjoyed for it’s own sake. Without fail, every woman I’ve ever met who had serious interests, had them from the perspective of status improvement or employment *only*. Note that I am making no judgements on intelligence or diligence, only on holding obsessive interests for their own sake. I’ve never seen it.

Captain Obvious
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> “Focus on the things you genuinely find interesting, not the personal validation you think they represent.”

The danger here [for the family man] is when the CHILDREN fascinate him – their sports and their musical instruments and their homeschooling and whatnot. From the wife’s perspective, it might look to her as though the husband is belittling himself by trying to earn some points in her eyes, when in fact he’s doing it out of fascination and joy, completely oblivious to her presence in the distant background.

Mad Yale Grad
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Jeremy, I’ve seen it, but they tend not to be very social so its highly likely they are not getting exposed to a lot of people and therefore some people might think they don’t exist. Anyway, we can talk, discuss, analyze and fight all day about the skewered mating market out there these days but at the end of it all “love is blind” is probably a truism. Otherwise how else would you explain an otherwise solid, responsible, child-free career guy wifing up a desperate baby mama looking for someone to clean up the mess she made with previous bad… Read more »

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A teenager who allegedly played naked Twister with her mother during a drunken party has jumped to her mom’s defense on social media. The 16-year-old girl took to Twitter days after Rachel Lehnardt, 35, was charged with two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor following the incident at their Evans, Georgia home. The mom-of-five, who admitted to turning towards alcohol during her divorce, also allegedly had sex with a 18-year-old man in the bathroom during the party, used sex toys on herself in front of the youngsters and later awoke to find a 16-year-old having sex with… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Mad Yale Grad

I have only one question for you.

Are you sure you graduated?

stuttie
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@ not born this morning – epic post…just epic.

Captain Obvious
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You come home from Iraq with PTSD and your Mormon wife is now an alcoholic who’s f*cking all the boys in your daughter’s class, especially the boys whose manhood is too large to fit in your daughter’s vagina?

Thanks, Neocons, for sending us off to fight and die for the cause! Where would we be without you?

Thanks, Evil Psychiatry Inc, for unleashing Cluster B insanity upon the world!

Thanks, Gramsci Project, for polluting our children’s minds the very moment that they first step foot in nursery school!

Thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks!!!

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy I have *never* seen a woman with an obsessive obscure interest that she enjoyed for it’s own sake. Without fail, every woman I’ve ever met who had serious interests, had them from the perspective of status improvement or employment *only*. Yeah, I’m gonna have to second you there. Having spent most of my adult life in nerd hobby communities, I can safely say every female pretty much gave off a false air of interest. She was there because of her boyfriend or there because it was a place she could get attention from guys that she couldn’t get elsewhere.… Read more »

Johnny Bits
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@Mad Yale Grad “Most western buddhist centers are operated by and for diehard lefties.” – Why do you think this is? I think it’s a remnant of the 60s movements that brought this stuff to the West. Most of the big Buddhist centers were founded by hippies in the 70s, so they started off Left and stayed that way. The emphasis on love and compassion is also leftie crack — they love to preach and preen, though they don’t really live it. “– I don’t know. The men I’m thinking of aren’t posers. They are genuine about their practice.” “–… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Captain Obvious, I give it one year until some “nice guy beta provider” dawns the cape, comes to the rescue, swoops in with great bravado and “saves-a-ho”. Because of her looks and her bubbly and sexually adventurous personality she’ll get wifed up by a solid career man (possibly “spiritual” too) before a solid, nerdy career woman looking for an equal partnership who played by the rules will.

Mad Yale Grad
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Sun Wukong, ” Having spent most of my adult life in nerd hobby communities, I can safely say every female pretty much gave off a false air of interest. She was there because of her boyfriend or there because it was a place she could get attention from guys that she couldn’t get elsewhere. I guess they’d was just too obvious for orbiters with even a hint of social intelligence or something. Nerds would put up with all kinds of shit from these bitches then charge at me with Arthur and his entire fucking roundtable in tow any time I… Read more »

walawala
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Mindset is important here. I’ve started Dj-ing a regular latin dance party. For many years I organized events but then decided to try this. I’ve been hugely successful even though I’ve only done it a few times. Already the haters are coming out putting out little barbs: “not bad” “again”… I also use this as a game technique. “Come out, I’ve got a lot of surprises planned”…girls get interested. It’s also not try hard since I’m only encouraging them and i’m doing it anyway and asking them to come along. Once in a while I’ll tell girls I had this… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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Johnny Bits, “I think it’s a remnant of the 60s movements that brought this stuff to the West. Most of the big Buddhist centers were founded by hippies in the 70s, so they started off Left and stayed that way. The emphasis on love and compassion is also leftie crack — they love to preach and preen, though they don’t really live it.” – They interpret love and compassion as “no judgement” and enabling immoral behavior probably. Quoting me “– I don’t know. The men I’m thinking of aren’t posers. They are genuine about their practice.” “– The really hardcore… Read more »

feeriker
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The danger here [for the family man] is when the CHILDREN fascinate him – their sports and their musical instruments and their homeschooling and whatnot. From the wife’s perspective, it might look to her as though the husband is belittling himself by trying to earn some points in her eyes, when in fact he’s doing it out of fascination and joy, completely oblivious to her presence in the distant background. Just as often and just as likely, she feels threatened, as if he’s trying one-up her, or co-opt her “rice bowl” by showing interest in the kids’ activities that she… Read more »

mike
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My wife said to me recently, I am the most selfish guy that she has ever had a relationship with. I just looked at her balefully and kept doing my thing. Despite my selfishness she blows me regularly, puts out and brings me coffee every morning while Im still in bed. So I guess I must be doing something right. I haven’t changed from the day we first met and I don’t plan on starting now

Tom
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@Glenn At least you have the guts to pick up and start over.

Jeremy
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@Mad Yale Grad They can’t win for trying? Have some empathy for girls and young women looking for nice guy nerd boyfriends instead of spreading eagle for every bad boy that walks through and then expecting those nerds to foot the bills for all her bad boy spawn in her 30s! This is a no white-knight zone. There is no defending the wimmenz in a no white-knight zone. The point being made is that, regardless of how the female’s sexual strategy manifests itself, the interest in the nerd subject (pick your nerd topic) is opportunistic when it comes to women,… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy Yep. What you’re talking about is essentially what drove GamerGate. Gaming has long been a male space, and when women tried to make it a female space by hook or by crook, it backfired because they were open and clumsy about it. Gamers are by no means masculine for the most part, and many couldn’t be further from “misogynist”. But when females wanted to be in game design, then insisted that guys have to like games women design because “The Patriarchy” dudes immediately smelled bullshit. Cue one female designer caught sleeping with dudes for ratings and you’ve got the… Read more »

Tilikum
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reading these comments is painful! It’s the manoshpere guys, not the twinkosphere.

Fuck me runnin. Blah blah blah, it’s mindless and futile.

s0nicfreak
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@Mad Yale Grad “Why are good, child-free men who should be pairing up with good, child-free women, instead pairing up with baby mamas?” I think it’s due to one of the many problems feminism has caused. Feminism has ingrained in our society that it’s bad for women to focus on finding a husband right out of the gate (i.e. in her prime years). A good woman is taught to focus on college and career in her prime years. These women are not putting themselves on the market until their 30s – by which point, they are desperate to reproduce thanks… Read more »

kfg
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“Gaming has long been a male space, and when women tried to make it a female space by hook or by crook . . .”

. . . they made it clear that they had no idea what “There are no girls on the Internet” was meant to convey.

Hobbes
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@Glenn- Yeah, I thought I could see the signs of cptsd is your comments. To be honest Glenn, from your writings I think its apparent that the seeds of your cptsd were planted way early on- as they usually are. It’s why some soldiers do ok and some get full blown ptsd. There was never one particular moment that triggered mine- it was a state I lived in my whole life since childhood.. I managed to be “functional” but desperately miserable. I’m not trying to diagnose you, my apologies if this is coming across that way.. It’s just that I’ve… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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sonic freak, “A “baby mama”, on the other hand, has multiple things going for her – she was sane enough for someone to knock up; the kid is most likely being paid for by the biological father; and, since she’s already reproduced, she isn’t going to be desperate do to so. Or, if the guy wants to have kids, he can already see that the woman is a loving/caring mother. Of course, the craziest ones don’t let on that they had the kid on purpose against the father’s wishes, are actually abusive and use the kid as a pawn in… Read more »

Adam
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Rollo, Your last few posts have reminded me of one of the key attributes a man must have to be an Alpha; authenticity. An authentic man has his interests for their own sake, and thus they contribute to who he is. They are a part of him. The inauthentic man has interests because he believes they will make him more attractive, which paradoxically they do not. An authentic man is resistant to being changed by a woman. An inauthentic man is easily molded and will betray his beliefs for a short term satisfaction or goal. A man like this is… Read more »

MOVADO
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Rollo, Great post as always. An area of curiosity for me is whether we should default to approach women on the majority of occasions when single? Or just improve ourselves relentlessly so they compete for us?

Personally prior to my marriage which started 3 years ago I rarely approached and therefore had very rare success so it would be interesting to know your thoughts.

I was 24 years old prior to marriage and in average shape with a sales job as a footnote.

All the best DMAN!!!!

Johnny Bits
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@Mad Yale Grad

“You probably also have your minimal threshold in other areas for a datable woman, like looks for example, right?”

Without a doubt. Since I don’t buy into “marrying you best friend” a shared interest like this is only marginally beneficial to the relationship.

Spirituality is an extremely diverse field as well. Of the few women I’ve dated that were regular meditators, this commonality did not result in the rest our values being aligned.

Value system, desired lifestyle, and attractiveness matching are all far more important than one shared interest.

Captain Obvious
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Fuck off Talmudikim.

Aka “Mad Brandeis Grad”.

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