Dancing Monkeys

Dance Monkey

From the Unbearable Triteness of Hating:

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.

Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

After this week’s post the expected debate of who are you really being you for came up. In managing your expectations in accord with the reality of women’s nature there’s always going to be some indignation for needing to do so. The perception of having to cater to the whims needs of women in order to broker some reward that’s never going to be an equitable trade is not only senseless, but it pisses off men who spend an inordinate amount of time and effort to better themselves for themselves and not be appreciated for it.

I’m cursed with a broad spectrum of interests, passions and hobbies. At the risk of glossing myself, I’ve been blessed with a lot of natural gifts and talents, and I developed the skills to better enjoy them, to profit from them and to explore things I simply find fascinating. For the greater part I don’t do these things for me, but rather because I’m genuinely curious and interested in them. I didn’t get into competitive fencing in college because I thought chicks would dig it. Nor did I pick up the sport as some “doing it for me” personal validation – it just looked like a hell of a lot of fun and even when I have my ass handed to me I still enjoy it to this day.

The outcome of having developed those competitive skills combined with the physical prowess I also developed, provided some side benefits to my enjoying fencing, lifting, martial arts and all of the other sports I’ve engaged in over the years. The good peripheral rewards are fairly obvious when it comes to physical interests, but I have hobbies and artistic pursuits that would probably surprise even my readers here.

I use those to my benefit in my personal and professional life, but some are most definitely not the things women would be drawn to in a guy. Of course, I don’t really care, but that doesn’t erase the preconceptions women (or anyone really) have of those interests. It’s easy to say, “well, that’s just me, take it or leave it”, but the fact remains that there are always going to be things you like that will never be an attraction for women – in fact, they’re likely to be an obstacle to attraction.

The Intelligence Paradox

There’s a subset of Blue Pill men who’ve bought into the social advertising that women find intelligent men more attractive. Attractive for long-term security and dependability as a provider? Yes. Arousing as a Hypergamous sexual prospect? Doesn’t matter. The Feminine Imperative likes to promote the ‘intelligence is sexy’ meme so as to have better prepared providers dutifully waiting for women once they’ve had their bad boys and are ready to cash out of the SMP.

That’s kind of bitter medicine for men who’ve invested themselves in intellectual interests they were at one time genuinely fascinated by. Once the imperative takes what it can benefit most from those interests and labels it ‘sexy’ they cease to be genuine fascinations and places them into the realm of sexual attractions. The question then becomes “Who are you really doing this thing for? To be a better prospect for women, or do you do it for you?”

Most intelligent men eventually come to realize that their interests simply aren’t sexy to women; if anything those pursuits usually become an insufferable bore to women. While the idea of a ‘hawt’ intelligent lover is appealing to the female hindbrain, the application of that intelligence is another thing entirely. Hypergamy doesn’t care about your grasp of philosophy, your love of mathematics, your Master’s degree in political science or that you can recognize impressionist painters from cubists. Hypergamy does care about your capacity to apply that intelligence in the service and fleeting contentment of women.

The opportunistic side of Hypergamy might enjoy the benefits that intelligence generates for a woman’s security, but your intelligence itself is not ‘sexy’. If intelligence by itself were a sexual predictor guys like Stephen Hawking wouldn’t find women to be “such mysteries.”

Unfortunately for most men this realization only comes after they’ve played to the script the Feminine Imperative had set for them and they’ve committed themselves to a woman he believed found his beautiful mind so attractive.

I detailed a bit of this dynamic in Compatibility:

However, I do think the desire of finding a common interest prior to, or in order to hook up with women is an interesting one. The MGTOW crowd will of course use this as a prime illustration of how men autonomously shape themselves to the ideals of women. And in the terms of living in the feminine reality they’d be right. You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. If she cannot realize a tangible result that benefits her – or by way of her, the potential “family” or the “relationship” – your effort is pointless and frivolous in contrast to engaging her, entertaining her or relating with her. Again we see the hypergamous feminine imperative of girl-world. If it’s not directly benefiting women, it’s not benefiting humanity in general.

It’s easy to apply this dynamic to something that’s directly relatable to women’s arousal/sexual interests. I covered this in Crisis of Motive; men ostensibly lift weights for their own personal validation – they do it for them – but when it’s obvious that a man can leverage that motivation and good physique to arouse women that’s when his motives become suspect:

I can’t recall how many times I’ve heard guys at Gold’s tell me the same thing as to why they workout.

“I do it for me! Yeah, of course, chicks check me out more now that I’ve dropped the fat and bulked up, but this is all for me man.”

I’ll admit, I was that guy at one time. For a guy it makes sense to cop the story of singularity of purpose since it implies that he’s his ‘own man’ and not improving himself to become more acceptable to the women he observably and admittedly wants to get with. This is the paradox of self-improvement – are you doing it for yourself or because you want to others to respond more positively to you? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both.

When your personal interests can be directly relatable to attracting women that is when your motives will come under scrutiny. Saying I enjoy reading books on astrophysics in my leisure time wouldn’t draw the same suspicions of my motives as my saying I’ve been a bodybuilder for most of my life because I just enjoy it and like to maintain my health.

Thoroughbred had a good comment about this:

JCL – “If I didn’t know any better I’d think the Red Pill is feminism for men, even though women are shit you still have to perform under the new agenda.”
See…

This is the subtle distinction where I think most of us get it drastically wrong. There is a huge chasm between performing for a woman and performing for yourself. Hell, I’m still guilty of the former at times still, but I at least recognize it now and am doing a better job of putting myself at the center of the frame rather than a woman. A woman’s love, attention, loyalty (such as it exists), empathy, sympathy, etc. are all *byproducts* of a man who unapologetically takes care of himself, his needs, his desires first. Here’s what I’m getting at… Flip the script on each of these:

“Women want alphas – become a top tier man.” — Become a top tier man for YOURSELF and only for YOURSELF. Women’s attention, loyalty, etc. will be the byproduct of you putting yourself at the center of the frame.

“Women want promiscuous sex – plate them.” — I’m married and was as blue pill as they come before discovering these hallowed halls two years ago. So, this one is modified for the married set.

Bottom line: Sex with wife sucked for years. Rollo’s concept of dread game has literally saved my marriage, but again there’s a subtle and very important distinction. When I initially conceptualized dread game it was with my wife in the center of the frame (in other words “If I use dread on the wife, she’ll want to fuck me more”). The results were meh. However, when I put MYSELF in the center of the frame as in “If I were suddenly single tomorrow how quickly could I get laid?”, the results were dramatic. The difference is this: In the first scenario I was counting on my actions causing a change in someone else (the wife). In the second scenario, my actions caused a radical change in MYSELF and in my conceptualization of myself.

Thoroughbred speaks to two issues here. A Man must place himself as his own Mental Point of Origin. In doing so he prioritizes himself as his primary importance which women find attractive, but you see the dual nature of this prioritization. Thoroughbred making himself his first priority has the effect of improving his life from an overall personal perspective and has the effect of attracting / arousing female interest in him. Does it matter what’s motivated that change in his performance?

Men must perform; and even when they’re performing as the result of genuine curiosity and interest they will make an impression on women. You cannot remove yourself from the Game. There’s a misnomer that Red Pill advocates believe all men need do is be good looking, aloof and let women come to them, but the truth is that even if you’re not approaching you’re still performing, you’re still presenting a presence that women (and other men) will evaluate.

The genuineness of your motive is only realized by you. One thing I addressed in Just Be Yourself is the you others would like to make of you:

We are who we say we are

We can alter our own personalities and have them altered by our conditions or any combination of the two, but to suggest that personality is static is a falsehood. The trap is to think that altering personality is in anyway disingenuous – there are certainly teriffic ‘actors’ or ‘poseurs’, and the like, that when we are confronted with them we sense (or even know) that they are pushing an envelope that they may not be entirely comfortable with, but there is merit to a ‘fake it till you make it’ doctrine. We only percieve it as being ‘false’, ‘superficial’ or as “trying to be something your not” when we have a concept or knowledge of a previous set of personality behaviors. If you met a likable cocky-funny guy at a club this weekend, how are you to know whether he’s the real deal or stretching the limits of his personality if you’ve never met him before?

If you have a look at the picture I used for my post Idealism you can get an idea of how men and women experience their existence. This masterfully encapsulates the mental directions of the genders. For men’s part, it’s their outward looking interests and curiosity that not only make them better Men, but also makes them attractive. Their attractiveness is a byproduct of a curiosity that is indifferent to the inward, self-importance of women.

As I’ve repeated many times, women should only ever be a complement to a man’s life never the focus of it. This is because women’s focus is primarily on themselves and once your primary focus becomes women they quickly lose interest. Men’s attractiveness lies in the results of that outward facing fascination that excludes women from its attention.

Focus on the things you genuinely find interesting, not the personal validation you think they represent. Saying you do things for you only echoes the self-importance of women’s self-focus. It alludes to a desire to be perceived as more attractive for a self-conscious awareness.

222 comments

  1. “Who are you really doing this thing for? To be a better prospect for women, or do you do it for you?” – True. If you are doing something to be a better prospect for them, you already lost the game.

    I do exercise, it gives me a nice high (also doing cold showers- when you mix the two the high is immense :)) and even if at the beginning it was because I wanted to gain more confidence in myself, there were thoughts in my head connecting good looks with higher sexual value, but I’d say that’s natural. We also can choose and pick – if we don’t want fat girls, we don’t go for them. Simple.

    Also obviously women want a guy that has it’s own story and passions. With exception of those, who are wanting a blue piller (who wants to be saved from growing up as a man by ‘women of his life’/’love’ – so she can ‘make it simple for him’). Apparently I know some guys that are just like that- they could not grow for some reason. Maybe they don’t want. Maybe they are scared and dominated by their wives.

    But even that kind of women – wanting to breed and get a ‘provider’ will dream about her ‘alpha fuck’. And will do it when occasion happens.

    Women- don’t offer them too much of your precious time, enjoy the nicest parts and let them deal with their issues alone. Nobody is helping us with our problems anyway… (and defo not women)

    Regards,
    __
    Datson H.
    https://redmalehummingbird.wordpress.com/

  2. Hypergamy doesn’t care about your grasp of philosophy, your love of mathematics, your Master’s degree in political science or that you can recognize impressionist painters from cubists. Hypergamy does care about your capacity to apply that intelligence in the service and fleeting contentment of women.

    Rollo’s Immutable Rule Number … ?

  3. “You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. ”

    I’m an avid meditator and spiritual development is the primary focus of my life.

    It’s amazing to watch how this interest fascinates women in the courtship phase, only to be viewed as a waste of time after the period of idealization comes to an end.

  4. Great Rollo, now I have to do a minor rewrite on my book “A Man’s Guide to Dread, Seduction and the Long Game” which I can see now was largely written from a dancing monkeys frame.

  5. Anything any human being every does is with themselves in the center. Unless you were beaten, enslaved or coerced violently to perform some action, you were doing it for yourself. It’s impossible not to.
    A guy says he lifts weight to get chicks and because his gf likes it. Well, despite his assertion, he is doing it for himself- he wants chicks, he wants to to be wanted, he wants something for himself, and so performs.
    A man hands over his paycheck to his wife, he sacrifices his time and his health and happiness to do so. He claims he did it for her. No, he did it for himself. He did it because he thought it had value, because he thought it would get him appreciation, he did it because he wanted to perceive himself as honorable. He did it because he wanted to Be that person.
    The only honest answer is that we all do things for ourselves, and we do things because of the effect it has on the environment around us.
    You are all already doing, and have always done everything for yourself. This insistence and obsession with “its all about me”, as I said in the last thread is fairly juvenile. You have always been at the center of your own existence, it is impossible not to be.
    Where the contention seems to be, now that I think of it, seems to be on the effect an action or behavior has on the environment. Alot of the “I do it for me, I’m at the center of my own world” (which has always been the case) seems to be about trying to not care about the effect it has on the environment. In a way, its a roundabout way of developing outcome independence.
    Seems to me then it makes more sense to speak of outcome independence, rather than pretending anything you ever did was not all about you and always has been. And it also follows that the effects our actions have on the environment matter to us as well. Unless we remove ourselves completely from society, you care. So long as society has the power to give and take and use force on you, you must care. For yourself.
    Like the guy at the gym- I do it for “all of the above” My health, I like being attractive, I like the strength, the energy, how it feels, that it helps to get me laid.. etc etc.
    There is no way to ever not do anything other than for yourself at the center unless you kill yourself, and there is no way to ever stop caring about the effect your actions play in society (women incl.) unless you completely remove yourself from society.
    No man is an island

  6. @Johnny Bits *It’s amazing to watch how this interest fascinates women in the courtship phase, only to be viewed as a waste of time after the period of idealization comes to an end.*

    I’d say it goes with every ‘profession’ whether you’re a DJ, painter or a zen buddhist. Re spiritual development- females are attracted towards ppl who are into that because they count on getting something out from it- on the spiritual level. They want it through easy way but when they found out development and wisdom isn’t something they can just ‘hear from somebody as a one wise sentence that will change their lives’, they quit.

    Those hose are lazy! 😉

  7. @Dr and Johnny- lol. Yes they are. It does seem that women think fucking a guy with some attribute will instill that attribute within them.
    “I’m fucking a spiritual mediator- I am spiritual”
    “I’m fucking a rock star- I’m a creative artist”
    “I’m fucking a bad boy with a Harley- I’m a badass”
    “I’m fucking a rich guy- I’m rich” Well, that last one might end up true of the dude marries her!

  8. @Hobbes

    This insistence and obsession with “its all about me”, as I said in the last thread is fairly juvenile

    First you said it was impossible for a man to make it all about him, now you extoll how all actions are selfish and shame it as juvenile to embrace that fact openly. Which is your opinion? Can a person make it all about them or not? Are you going to shame them for something you think they can’t actually do, or are you shaming them because they can?

    If you think the fact that I mention it as part of the changes I’ve made in my life here means I walk around proclaiming it like a child to everyone, you’re mistaken. Here it’s spoken of during discussion simply because it’s a succinct way to sum up the actions taken.

    @Rollo

    Focus on the things you genuinely find interesting, not the personal validation you think they represent.

    I think not doing them for the validation but because you find them interesting is truly doing it for yourself alone. You’re satisfying your curiosity and interests. To me that’s doing something strictly for myself, regardless of what anyone around me thinks.

    If others like it as well, wonderful it’s a commonality we can share. If it’s a thing chicks happen to dig as well, wonderful I’ll leverage it when I can. If I’m the only person on the planet that likes it, wonderful I’ll keep doing it so long as it holds my interest. But in none of those cases am I doing it for validation as my original goal. I’m doing it because it interested me.

  9. Know this history well: sometime ago I was with an almost-fiance. I had gotten a bit of success in music (enough to keep doing it for awhile sometime after). I originally met her at a gig.

    Then one day she says I ought to really “grow up” and be more responsible in pushing my “real” career.

    Blue pill as I was then, that demand really ate at me. And I ignored it. As it turned out soon she became an ex-fiance. Thankfully. The guy she left me for and married was a private pilot, had a nice small plane. She talked him out of that pursuit soon after, she thought it too risky and didn’t like it. They were divorced in five years.

  10. It’s also possible that there’s a mismatch in terminology here and we’re largely speaking of the same thing, but I don’t think that’s the case.

    When I’m told that the mental shift I’ve made that has improved my circumstances greatly hasn’t actually happened, my reaction is one of complete incredulity. Yes, it has happened. Yes, those around me have noticed a shift in who I am. Yes, women and men both have actually reacted better to me as I’ve followed a path towards Enlightened Self Interest through both awareness and the consequential shift in my mental point of origin.

    At its heart, Enlightened Self Interest (at least from my view) means considering yourself and your views first. “How does this benefit me?” as an explicit conscious thought is where the root decision for action or change comes from now whereas that was not the case in the past. This is how I define “doing it for myself”.

  11. @Sun

    I rarely allow myself to get embroiled in the manosphere’s politics or pet projects (GamerGate, SadPuppies, etc). I do what I do because I like to consider things and connect dots from perspectives I think are interesting and possibly explain greater dynamics.

    I don’t like to write about what I write, or how to be a blogger, or how I found my writers voice, because all of that distracts from doing what I do. I know so many people in my work life who’s job it is to convince people that they ought to have the job they do. Rather than do what they do, they become “experts” in their fields by putting off doing good work.

    True masters of their craft don’t do lectures about why their art is so great, they’re too wrapped up in the love of doing what they do. Their art sells itself.

    That’s what I’m getting at here today. I don’t write what I do for me in the sense that I want to convince myself of my own worth. I do it because I have a genuine interest in it. I’ll quit blogging and writing altogether when it ceases to be so.

    I don’t write to get women, or to make a living, or to stroke my ego with my precious little leisure time, I do it because I’m interested in it.

  12. @Rollo

    I agree with what you’re saying and it’s in fact how I reflect on my own actions (hence the reason the “you’d stop working out tomorrow if chicks didn’t find it attractive” argument annoys the hell out of me), but I’m having a hard time seeing why summing that series of thoughts up with the statement of “I do it for myself” is inaccurate unless you’re assuming “for myself” is always about validation.

    I suppose it can be about validation in some contexts (“I’m doing this for myself so I can prove that I’m a man“), but for me the vast majority of the time it’s about scratching an itch whether that be curiosity, interest, or otherwise. I’m considering the benefit to myself before choosing to invest my time in something. Even if it’s just “Yeah, I think that’d be cool to learn,” that’s benefit enough for me in a lot of cases.

    For me it’s just been a convenient way to sum up a big life change I’ve been working towards and finding success with. Nothing more.

  13. @Sun- The part that I am trying to call basically impossible- if not just extremely undesirable and unnecessary- is the part of “it’s all about me” that pretends it doesn’t give a fuck about how it plays out in life, or that the results aren’t part of the motivation to things. Now, despite accusations, I never meant that if you like to do the Sunday crossword, you were doing it for results. What I was aiming at were people on one hand sayin “I don’t give a fuck what women think about x,y,z” Then turning right around and saying “And women love it!”. That is juvenile and transparently bull.
    I also bristle at this idea that somehow, anyone, ever, did anything for anyone other than themselves. I get a sense in alot of comments here and in the manoshpere where guys just play victim all the time.. as if when they were betas kissing ass, paying out money buying gifts, paying bills etc etc, that they were some victims and somehow pure as driven snow and so self sacrificial- as if they weren’t behaving in a blue pill beta fashion exactly because they thought, and were told, that it would get them something. If you were doing it, you were doing it for yourself,
    So when I hear guys here carrying on about how they are now “doing it for themselves” I think, “and who the fuck do you think you were doing it for all along?”
    As I said, it’s empty sloganeering- exactly the kind of shit women do.

  14. To try and clarify (look, I know I’m not as clear a writer as Rollo)- When I hear “I am doing it for me now!” this is what I think
    1. this person has yet to realize they have always done it for themselves
    2. this person is trying to blow smoke as if he, once upon a time was some selfless Buddha
    3. Now he’s shouting out some empty, meaningless slogan because he is obviously still seeking external validation, while pretending he is not.
    4- and this is the worst part for me- it’s the idea that one has to stop “caring”. You do. Of course you do. It’s a GOOD thing, and it sucks to see people thinking they should deny their basic masculine drive and humanity. That some Ayn Rand form of selfishness is all that is needed or even beneficial. I find her banal and juvenile and I find any man who follows that path the same. Just because we live in a time of open hypergamy where marriage is probably a no fly zone doesn’t mean you need to go all psycho on your innate humanity.

    But most of all, fuck the empty sloganeering. Stop expecting me to cheerlead that shit. When women do it I get annoyed, so its worse when men do it. Like when women say “its my time now”.. I’m like bitch, when the fuck wasnt it? And I know, just know, that she has some ulterior BS she’s spinning- no matter what she says, or whether she is even aware of it. You know, when she does it, she is seeking validation. Well, so are the guys doin the same shit.
    It’s obvious

  15. @Sun- one more thing (sorry, I know, I ramble)
    Alot of this is coming from my initial reaction to Rollos idealism post which ruffled some feathers here- Mine and Glenns most notably. I have been putting alot of thought into it and I get it more now. I was angry because I was trying to abandon my innate and natural idealism, so when he mentions mens idealsim being somehow beneficial I reacted negatively..
    Secondly, listening to Rollos interview when he spoke about his wife- you can hear it in his voice- it was cool- he loves her, he cares.. he’s not trying to impress us with how he doesn’t give a shit, or how being his own center means denying he cares.. no.. it was just a natural flow to the two things. They coexist- the caring and the self frame of reference.
    That is something to shoot for. For me at least. Not one person who ever came online to impress me with their “all about me” ever impressed me as someone I ever wanted to be like or even in the vicinity of.

    anyway, I’m done. Have at it. I’m the crab trying to keep you down and shit

  16. “I’m the crab trying to keep you down and shit”

    No, you’ve just got yourself all wound up about something. It happens.

  17. You’re interest in spirituality will still fascinate her if she’s equally yoked. I suggest you join a hippie community where spirituality is the endgame for them all.

  18. Great stuff but let me offer a different angle from psychology that I’d love to hear Rollo integrate/compare with his “point of mental origin” concept.

    As those who pay attention to my whinging here know I was abused and had other childhood traumas growing up. There are numerous impacts of that but one of them is developing a “codependent” identity. In a sense, it’s an outcome of the hypervigilance any long term victim of abuse develops as an adaptive response to his/her environment. Since I was always having to be vigilant when my Dad was around, and s teacher, and that babysitter’s brother and to some degree my two older brothers – cuz they would overpower me physically – I was always on alert around them. My state of mind became dependent on another’s state of mind. Better to not get Dad angry or react to my older brother’s taunts – in fact isn’t it better if I’m funny? Essentially, one’s identity becomes fungible based on who’s in the room, to some degree. I found the movie Zelig unwatchable because of this trait within me.

    I had a real breakthrough when it was framed as having an “external locus of control” versus an “internal locus of control”. I got that I was allowing others to still control my state of mind as an adult – it could be a stranger on the subway. It’s like my mental feelers are always out, shaping me to deal with people preemptively. This all blends in with the FI and Blue Pill ways for me in the sense that I tended to get too focused on what women thought of me and it all feels the same. In a way, Blue Pill relationships with women are very much like the abuse I suffered in the sense of how much room there actually is for my life and my authentic expression of self and my needs etc. I also internalized all this. Sigh…

    Sadly, for me achieving and maintaining and internal locus of control is elusive. I have times when I can pull my locus of control back inside of me and it’s really wonderful when I do. Roger Clemens – The Rocket – used to talk about “staying within himself” in order to pitch well. It’s a very interesting phenomena.

    I also wonder how much this has to do with SMV? How does an ugly, uncoordinated fat kid take into account the reaction of women versus the team quarterback? Does rejection feed the desire for approval, does it stoke it, making one desperately seek it? Does the suffering of rejection make one crave acceptance and love and desire even more, making one even more Blue Pill?

    I do think I finally get Rollo’s point. Marriage/ltr/family is a game with risks and payoffs but they are not symmetrical for both parties. I play games with assymetric payoffs all the time, and it’s a matter of expectation more than anything else. I still play some competitive poker tourneys at the low level – took a first at Caesars my last time out – but my expectation in any given tournament is that I’m not going to cash. Yet I’m playing to win, but the game is stacked against me cashing in any one event and in fact, the best tournament players in the world don’t cash in the majority of tournaments they enter. Same for a great hitter in baseball – if they hit 1/3 of the time they are stars but most people don’t get that means they are failing most of the time. Life has lots of weird games like that. My sales career – most deals I try to develop don’t work out, most ideas and startups fail. Etc.

    It also makes me think about risk, and I spent some of my career in financial risk management. The biggest risk in any “game” is the risk of ruin, of getting wiped out. Perhaps using game with a proper focus a man could manage a marriage so the worst isn’t likely to happen? I was ruined – taken out of the game and in part due to my own frustration. What if I had been game aware? Instead of putting my foot down and refusing to be treated like crap, would game have prevented all the escalation between my wife and me? Could I have channeled that energy? Also, what would it have been like had I known I could manage it or had an approach/plan that might have a chance of working? Cuz it wasn’t like that – it was like a riddle that I could never solve and it became so aggravating that I couldn’t take it.

    It also has to be weighed against the alternatives – listen up young guys. So, you don’t get married – okay, great you dodge some potential bullets. But I’ve been single for a long time and I can tell you there are plenty of bullets being single. And I don’t want to be, I always liked being part of a family. So the tradeoff would be the thanklessness/work involved in being an effective father and husband paired with the joy of being in a family, compared to the liberty of being single with the sadness and desolation of being alone. I guess I have to say I would take the former any time.

    I just think no man should be allowed to get married without taking the Red Pill. Maybe we coould make a Red Pill brigade who kidnap men when they get engaged and deprogram them, for their own good, so they actually have a chance at a good marriage and family life? Lol, just kidding, sort of…

    Hmmm, another great fucking post. Rollo, thanks!!!

  19. Reposting because I want answers. I used to think “good guys” only rewarded baby mamas with occasional sex (if they got the chance) but I increasingly see that they reward them with commitment, emotional investment, time, money, and everything. Things that should be going to their own assortive mating equals – the child-free good girl who played by the rules. I heard there was one a time when parents could tell their daughters, “Don’t sleep around and get knocked up by bad boys because then you’ll never get a good guy to wife you up”. Is that true? Because it certainly doesn’t hold true now. Now its like you can’t get a good guy’s attention until you become a baby mama! I’m confused. What the hell is going on?

    Reposted comment;

    “It’s a noble effort, but where her list falls flat is in the presumption (her hope) that women will make a conscious, rational decision to opt for a Beta male as a suitable long term provider. What a novel concept!”

    They do. After they had their bad boy fun and need someone to play good role model and father figure to their kids. OK fine. But here’s the catch – men are lining up to play Captain Save-a-Ho and by-passing, rational, justice-oriented, child and baggage-free women in the process.

    I asked this question over at Dragon’s blog (from where I followed your link here). Why are men doing this? Why are good, child-free men who should be pairing up with good, child-free women, instead pairing up with baby mamas?

  20. @Hobbes

    Just because some use it as an empty slogan does not invalidate its use as a properly structured english sentence to express an idea, hence the reason I say it. It sums up the changes I have made in a way that I don’t have to write paragraph after paragraph or even tell short stories to illustrate. Perhaps consider the source and the context before judging the usage. TL;DR: I ain’t sloganeering if I’m simply using the english language to express an abstract thought, so stop accusing me of it.

    Now to your other points:

    1) & 2) While no one is 100% selfless, BP conditioning pushes supplicating ones own wishes to those of others on a routine basis. A man is shamed for embracing his own sexual strategy instead of enabling that of women in society. This is what a lot of discussion of the Feminine Imperative centers around: shaming men’s selfishness as immoral and incorrect while touting feminine selfishness as moral and correct.

    Habitual suppression of your own selfish needs and desires results in a significant drop in the feeling of agency. This brings about a great deal of psychological trauma, at the very least creating a “bitter male” and at its worst resulting in yet another mass murder/suicide.

    In my own case, I was always very quick to drop my own selfish desires the moment anyone trotted the shame train out. However, people shame you the hardest for your selfishness right before they attempt to assert their selfishness as what you should really care about. It made me an incredibly bitter person until I realized I didn’t have to give a fuck about their selfish needs. I could look out for mine instead and the world would keep turning.

    Now the motives for my actions may always have been selfish (“If I appease her, maybe she’ll like me”), but the conscious decision-making process was not. That shift is what I refer to. Forcing myself to look at my needs first. If they will not be served by what is asked of me, I’ll be less likely to do what is asked. If they actively work against my needs (and many things I did for others in the past did exactly this), I will outright refuse to do them.

    These were a revelation to me that Blue Pill thinking kept hidden, particular when dealing with females.

    3) I frankly don’t give a fuck if anyone here approves of me. I only care about the opinion of others inasmuch as they help me keep my views aligned with actual reality. I don’t have to validate myself to any of you, but I know that I need the views of others to insure mine don’t become warped to the point of making my mental model of the world around me as dysfunctional as it was before.

    4) To a large degree a dude does have to stop giving a shit in the time of Open Hypergamy. Women don’t care about you outside of your utility to them, and they’re encouraged to be that way. If you think you can be the giving, caring one in that arrangement and not get fucked over, you’re going to be disappointed. This is a big part of the reason I’ve completely dropped the idea of LTR with American women. When they’re encouraged to think and act on their hypergamy to the point of being unfeeling sociopaths, your only option in interacting with them is to look out only for your needs first. Satisfy their needs only when it is incidental to satisfying your own.

    In fact to some degree I became this way before coming here. Each time a woman left for another man or a good friend of mine, I had to learn a degree of emotional detachment. Had to. It’s the only way to survive that kind of emotional trauma on a routine basis.

    It’s impossible to spin plates without some degree of emotional detachment; do you really think you can next a plate with tears in her eyes while giving a shit how she feels? If you’re spinning plates, you’re consciously acting in your own self-interests first or you’re full of shit.

    It’s impossible to avoid oneitis without some emotional detachment; no woman that ever LJBF’d a man actually thought about his feelings before her tingles, so your walk away has to be focused on your own needs first.

    It’s impossible to put dread in an LTR without at least a little emotional detachment; the immediate reflex the moment her freak out starts is appeasement instead of holding frame.

    The consequence of living in a place and time like this is that the man who does not act selfishly as a conscious decision will be set upon and devoured by the masses of women who act selfishly without hesitation or shame because society has encouraged them to do so. Ignore that fact at your own peril.

  21. Hobbes… You’re getting way deep in the weeds here with the whole “doing it for yourself” discussion I think. Look the point I was simply trying to make is that when I began focusing on what makes ME happy (unapologetically) rather than my happiness being dependent on external validation, I became happier… Full stop. With wife, with kids, with colleagues.

    I’m not bragging or sloganeering at all, because the truth is I have a long way to go myself. Yes I still too often seek external validation, but at least now I can analyze my motives more clearly. And I don’t know where you got that I didn’t give a fuck about my wife or kids. If I conveyed that, mea culpa. I do… But they are not the be all and end all of my life. An important part yes. Funny thing too… Because of that, they are all happier. We are all happier. Another paradox.

    What I meant to convey is that I like to think that I’m strong enough and yes self-centered enough(now) that if I was faced with the trials and tribulations of a wife who walked, that I wouldn’t be devastated. I’d rebound, move on, pick myself up, dust myself off and carry on. Would it hurt? Absolutely, but overcoming struggle (rather than wallowing in self pity) is where growth happens, and that’s where Id like to think I would choose to focus.

    By the way, and I really believe this, folks who choose to blame the world for their problems always walk under a rain cloud. My dad is the perfect example. Bad luck follows that poor fucker everywhere he goes and I’m convinced much of it is a piss poor attitude.

    As far as Ayn Rand, we’ll have to agree to disagree… There is often virtue in selfishness, and it’s a hell of a lot more honest than the covert contracts of a “nice guy” dishonestly trying to get what he wants through subterfuge and deception.

  22. Johnny Bits

    April 17th, 2015 at 1:42 pm

    “You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. ”

    I’m an avid meditator and spiritual development is the primary focus of my life.

    It’s amazing to watch how this interest fascinates women in the courtship phase, only to be viewed as a waste of time after the period of idealization comes to an end.
    ———————

    Ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod Johnny Bits read my comment above!!!!

    I see a lot of spiritual type guys wifing up baby mamas. Its like these women target those men purposely, thinking that these guys owe them something, like proof of how spiritual they are lies in how far they are willing to go to protect and serve women, any kind of women. Like there’s buddha-hood in paying for the kids of other men and showing up to “honor the goddess” (the goddess being HER!)

  23. “I get a sense in alot of comments here and in the manoshpere where guys just play victim all the time.. as if when they were betas kissing ass, paying out money buying gifts, paying bills etc etc, that they were some victims and somehow pure as driven snow and so self sacrificial- as if they weren’t behaving in a blue pill beta fashion exactly because they thought, and were told, that it would get them something.”

    By the way, you’re exactly right about this. That’s the “covert contract” point I was making above. It’s fundamentally dishonest, and it’s why women loathe “nice guys”. I was that guy.

  24. ” . . . actually I was just defending my viewpoint . . .”

    Certainly. Defence is the most common reason for men to get all wound up about something. Wound up enough that after some pages of your writing I am only now starting to get a clear image of your position.

    Now I’m about to go out and spend some time doing something that has been one of my chief joys since I was a preschool child. Something that most women, at best, think is a waste of time, and at worst are threatened by, as it’s brought me within a hair’s breadth of a death a few times.

    If I live I’ll check back in. If I don’t, I might not.

  25. @Hobbes

    I’m the crab trying to keep you down and shit

    Don’t try to run that line on me. It won’t work.

  26. @Glenn

    Maybe we coould make a Red Pill brigade who kidnap men when they get engaged and deprogram them, for their own good, so they actually have a chance at a good marriage and family life?

    They’d mostly wind up like the visitor we had a couple weeks back. “She’s really obviously turning me in to her BB, wedding off.”

    Not that it would be a bad thing, mind you.

  27. @Sun and Thoroughbred- what you guys are describing is much more real that before.. and that is a million times more clear. Whoever coined “its about me” should be shot, because what you guys are describing is a totally different phenomena. I, like you Sun, and Glenn, am the victim of abuse. I wasn’t allowed to dissent and as Glenn says, always had a dependence on others emotional states. But breaking free from that was about finding my identity and defending myself and my borders.
    What you guys are describing is that. Hell, it’s much more accurate to say “I’m being honest now” What going along to get along really is is a form of dishonesty- a subtle negotiation where I will be what people want me to be to get what I want. If anything you are probably less “all about me” now than before. Whereas before everything you did was a way to try and get what you wanted, you probably do things now for their own value. i.e. it’s less about you and more about the thing that interests you instead, if I’m understanding correctly. Anyway, I find what you guys are saying now- without the shortcut- is much more instructive and helpful and clear.
    @Sun- I haven’t found the need to be cold hearted to spin plates- I find it actually works against me. I find giving a shit makes it all easier. I just have to define my wants and borders, and I do so clearly. If they leave, they go. The upside of this is there are a few plates I see very rarely, but when we do its fun, we catch up, we fuck. Whatever works for you, but it sounds like your treating yourself a bit harshly out of fear of relapse into beta territory. You won’t. You just won’t. Its impossible. I’d bet that even if you tried to get oneitis now you’d have a hard time of it. Maybe my unplugging was just that traumatic, but I can’t imagine ever seeing women the same again.

  28. @Sun-
    “I’m the crab trying to keep you down and shit

    Don’t try to run that line on me. It won’t work.”

    lol. Dude, stop acting like a bitch. You have been jumping on my ass for like a day now- all for a comment that was never even aimed at you- you just took it right up your ass as if it was and came out firing insults like I killed your puppy.
    If you can’t handle being questioned, then STFU. All of us have posted perspectives here and have been challenged and called on them. Thats what goes on here. I challenged a meme and your all bent out of shape.

  29. I’ve seen lots of nice guys wife up baby mamas. Some of the marriages took; some exploded spectacularly. I would have thought the cramped thinking behind why nice guys are compelled to do this would be obvious by now: the societal conditioning to “do it for the good of society/the family”, “the kids deserve a father which their bio-dad isn’t”, “the church/my family thinks it’s a good match”, “these articles I’m reading tell me this is what real men should do”, “she’s nice and at least is giving me the time of day plus some poonani, which the other women I pursued wouldn’t give me”. “the sex and love is really good for me, there are just some sprogs attached”, etc. etc.

    Now tying yourself to something so risky just “for the good of society” would seem to be the WORST reason, I mean, what did “societal approval” ever do for me or any of you? Especially when you were a child/young man and all you heard was that society would just as soon have you FOAD.

    Or as National Lampoon used to intone in their parody of “Desiderata”:

    You are a fluke of the universe
    You have no right to be here
    And whether you can hear it or not,
    The universe is laughing behind your back

  30. Here’s the problem: I hate doing things that would make me more attractive. I’m overweight. Obese really. I hate exercising and eating healthy. I have no interest in it. Don’t really care how long I live. The only reason I’d do that is to get women.

    But what would I want what amounts to a shit sandwich? What I want from women is unrealistic and a fantasy. What I can actually get doesn’t seem worth the effort. The BP media is telling me I can have a Ferrari and really all I can get is a Pinto that doesn’t even run. Fuck that shit.

  31. Sun Wukong,

    “It’s impossible to spin plates without some degree of emotional detachment; do you really think you can next a plate with tears in her eyes while giving a shit how she feels?”

    Why would you want to engage in that level of sociopathy in the first place? Rather than leading someone on to think she has a chance at an actual relationship when she doesn’t, the righteous thing to do is to make it clear from the beginning that the situation is open, polyamorous and and there is absolutely no chance of anything else. So while you are happy to get her off sexually when she needs that, if she’s relationship oriented she needs to be simultaneously be looking for some other man for that.

    That would greatly reduce her tears and your sociopathy. Many women are open to short term polyamory these days when its spelled clearly out like that- so its a win/win!

    “If you’re spinning plates, you’re consciously acting in your own self-interests first or you’re full of shit.”

    Bull. It can be a win/win for both. See above.

    “no woman that ever LJBF’d a man actually thought about his feelings before her tingles”

    Having to LJBF someone is problematic for a woman or man who has genuine feelings of friendship for that person but is not sexually attracted to them. He or she does not want to hurt the friend, feels bad about letting them down and goes out of their way to let them down easy. But none of us should fake sexual attraction and lead someone on just because we don’t want to lose them as a friend, don’t want to hurt them, or we want to play around with others while they remain monogamous to us, as in your “spinning plates” model.

    If you want to spin plates, fine, but don’t lead someone on and expect the spinning to only come from your direction. Similarly in friendship. It has to be made clear what ones feelings are for someone. If they propose “taking it to the next level” when you feel no sexual attraction for them, it is more hurtful to lead them on then to honestly but carefully tell them your true feelings.

    “The consequence of living in a place and time like this is that the man who does not act selfishly as a conscious decision will be set upon and devoured by the masses of women who act selfishly without hesitation or shame because society has encouraged them to do so. Ignore that fact at your own peril.”

    See my comments above about baby mamas. Good men without kids are wifing up these women and play father figure to the kids they had with previous bad boys while good, justice-oriented, child-free women who want fair and equal relationships from men and not want to use them financially, are going without.

    I understand sexual needs, boy do I ever! But these “good guys” should not reward these women with their time, commitment, money, emotional investment and child-care. They should just reward them with sex and make it clear “I’m not going to wife you up but if you want we can have a short term fling while you look for some other chump to play responsible father to your kids. My responsible investment will eventually go to a woman like me – a fair-minded, child-free responsible woman”.

    One thing is for sure. I can never tell my daughter, “Don’t sleep around and get knocked up by bad boys because a good guy will never wife you up,” when the opposite is true.

    So why are these guys wifing those women up when they should be “spinning plates” (but in an honest way) with them?

  32. @Hobbes @Sun – This doesn’t feel like such a “safe space” – do you guys need some conflict mediation? Or perhaps anger management? Lol, men love to argue, it’s true. I just love the way you guys are going at it. My Friday night plans just cancelled, I’ve got a busy weekend, maybe I’ll just pop some popcorn and sit back and check this out. Great stuff guys, I’m learning a ton. It’s great to watch you guys actually effect each other’s arguments and refine and parry and punch. It’s like Friday Night Fights (as an art, not the feminized view of fighting).

    Or should I go to the gym???

  33. Fred Flange, I hear ya but its not the desperate men without options wifing up the baby mamas I see. Some are good-looking, popular guys who do well with women and do have choices. There are a few who are compromised in some way and I understand their options are limited but the situations they took on are…. extreme to put it lightly. I’m not going into details here but they are situations men in most cultures around the world would never dream of looking twice at. And when there are plenty of baggage free women out here looking for mates, I just don’t get it. And I’m not talking about divorcees either, I’m talking baby mamas. I’ve even seen guys from traditional cultures play Captain-Save-a-Ho once they migrate to the States and in their own countries it would be unthinkable.

    Hobbes @ Sun says,

    “I haven’t found the need to be cold hearted to spin plates- I find it actually works against me. I find giving a shit makes it all easier. I just have to define my wants and borders, and I do so clearly. If they leave, they go. The upside of this is there are a few plates I see very rarely, but when we do its fun, we catch up, we fuck. Whatever works for you, but it sounds like your treating yourself a bit harshly out of fear of relapse into beta territory. ”

    It sounds to me that he fears that being honest with these women would result in them leaving or in them spinning plates themselves. Seems he wants all the freedom to be poly while he wants all of them to be mono. That’s not real polyamory. That’s just weasleness. A true player plays for real.

    There are plenty of women out here in the dating scene who are polyamorous so there’s no excuse to lead women on anymore. That’s just straight up sociopathic.

  34. Glenn- The entertainment value is fading- as his latest responses have devolved to one liners. I actually love Sun, for some reason this issue has brought out the personal attacks from him.
    We’ve all been there.
    I’d say go to the gym, this is pretty much done, lol. Glad you enjoyed it though.
    BTW, look up cptsd. From your comments I think alot of it applies to you. Definitely did for me- and even more than TRP, learning about it really helped me out a ton. Wish I had known about it much younger as well.
    I’d suggest it to Sun too considering his history, but I don’t think he’s in a receptive mood!

  35. On a different note, I’ve been debating doing a roundtable-ish thing on an anonymous TeamSpeak server to try and get a bunch of dudes from here together to actually talk. I’m only thinking an hour or two once a month, we record and share it as sort of a pod cast on the side.

    I wasn’t sure if Rollo would mind or how much interest there would be, but I figured at least the regulars might be interested. Yes, even you Hobbes. I’m not as “bent out of shape” as you seem to think. Anyway, if there’s interest let me know and I’ll see what I can arrange.

  36. With this post, Rollo illustrates that nerdism is actually a part of masculinity, never the feminine. There is no such thing as a female nerd. Only men become obsessively interested in something (oftentimes the absurdly obscure). I don’t find this a failing, though I’ve read a number of fantastic arguments against nerdism in game blogs that I (mostly) agree with. Men are the passionate sex, so much so that they can literally get lost in their own passion. Your passion is actually extremely attractive to women, but in order for that to be so it has to be a mature interest that is clearly developed and balanced yet important enough to you that she can never divert you from it.

    Your “performance” for women should simply be your display of the high value of your own endeavors. But that which you find fascinating enough to make a part of yourself must be for its own sake, not hers. If a woman becomes the center of your life, then how is she ever going to believe that any obsession she may have seen in you before you met is at all real? Wouldn’t you presume that a woman who took up scuba diving just to meet men, then suddenly drops it entirely after marriage, actually had no passion in the subject whatsoever? (I actually have a coworker in exactly that situation) Women have to be led to believe that you have some form of passion, or you are just plain not interesting.

    Balance out your inner nerd. Embrace what you enjoy about life. Get better at those things you enjoy. Display your passions when women come around in the highest value way you can. If you believe for one instant that you’re just performing for her, you’ve got the wrong focus.

  37. @Sun- I’d jump at the chance. I’ve often wanted to say something about meeting some of the people here in some way, but thought it was inappropriate. Glenn is in NYC I believe, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wanted to get a beer with the guy. Glenn would be a trip.
    If you’ll have me, I’d be delighted

  38. @ Sun

    It’s impossible to spin plates without some degree of emotional detachment; do you really think you can next a plate with tears in her eyes while giving a shit how she feels?

    It is certainly possible. It just takes self-discipline, emotional regulation, and adherence to your own frame and purpose. Personally, I have loved a few women deeply, yet had to “next” them because their behavior was not compatible with a healthy lifestyle or relationship. It was a very difficult emotional experience for the both of us. I gave “a shit” about how they felt, to the point of offering ample guidance, support, and leadership for them to improve their behavior to meet the necessary healthy standard. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, those standards were not met. As a result, the “nexting” was a required consequence of their continued behavior, regardless of my personal feelings (or theirs).

    In other words, just because you have feelings for a woman does not mean that you have to be a slave to those feelings, let her use that connection to manipulate you, or abandon your goals and purpose to chase that feeling. A man can have all the feelings and empathy in the world – but as a leader, he cannot let those feeling sway his frame or focus from what is productive, healthy, and correct. So, a man must simply be stronger and more disciplined than his feelings, if he wants to both feel and be successful.

  39. This is one of the best posts yet. It clearly defines the benefit of acquiring and maintaining an outward mental perspective which ties directly into “just getting it” and being in control of ones life to the greatest extent possible.

    When someone asks why you body build, write poetry, race bikes, study astrophysics, etc, the only healthy answer is “BECAUSE I WANT TO” period. Any other answer exposes a weakness, an acquiescence to being subjugated by an authority other than yourself. Who the fuck are they to question you? You owe no explanation or excuse for your endeavors to anyone but yourself. Just the fact that someone would question you indicates they already sense a weakness in you or they are testing for it.

    If you are truly your own center, it will show through your actions tone of voice, body language, etc. and you will not be questioned. So the best MO is full steam ahead, fuck the naysayers, and distractions. Do whatever interests you, apply yourself 100 and 10 %. If you find you are not really interested, drop it and do something you really are interested in. We are each accountable to no one really but ourselves.

  40. ” . . . the only healthy answer is “BECAUSE I WANT TO” period.”

    Sometimes it is “None of your business.”

  41. @Hobbes

    Anything any human being every does is with themselves in the center.

    Hobbes, haven’t read the full exchange yet, don’t know if this addresses your whole point, but it was your first sentence. I had to say that’s not entirely accurate. There’s a subtlety there that has implications. I would revise that to say:

    Anything that any human being ever does is, by their own individual ability to perceive their own needs, with themselves in the center.

    Not everyone is as perceptive of their own needs as they need to be, for countless reasons. So yes, while people act according to what they believe they need, misperception, old abuse, deception, etc.. all conspire to convince us that actions which are actually horribly stupid are in our own best interest.

  42. @Hobbes

    So when I hear guys here carrying on about how they are now “doing it for themselves” I think, “and who the fuck do you think you were doing it for all along?”

    I think, to a degree you are ignoring a portion of blue pill deception. The blue pill tries to convince men that they will be rewarded for self-sacrifice. The blue pill preys on mens inborn sense of self-sacrifice, and their love of reason to convince millions of men that doing things for others is noble and will eventually give them what they want. You can argue, successfully I would say, that such actions are still self-interested. However, no one would ever say that delaying self-gratification so that others are comforted is selfish, because it just isn’t. There may indeed be selfish reasons for exercising patience, but you’re still displaying a virtue.

    Men who are coming out of blue-pill understanding honestly believe that their past behavior “respecting women’s boundaries” was noble and proper. The fact that they never got sex from it has never occurred to them, or at the very least they’ve got a wall of buffer behaviors ready to distract them from that truth. To that end, there’s little point in calling them hypocrites, because frankly they’re just deceived. You wouldn’t call a cult follower retarded, because you understand their critical thinking is impaired, so why call blue and purple-pill men out for something they do not yet understand the folly of?

  43. The Zen of Assortive Mating 101

    1. The rightful match for a divorced mom of 2 is the divorced dad of 2.

    2. The rightful match for the male plate spinner is the female plate spinner.

    3. The rightful match for the never-married multiple baby-mama is the never-married multiple baby-daddy bad boy player.

    4. The rightful match for the child-free, responsible, monogamous woman is the child-free, responsible monogamous good guy.

    All of society’s problems spring from mixing up the above.

  44. @Sun Wukong

    On a different note…

    Honestly, I think I’d rather hop on a plane and find a quiet bar than use teamspeak. Note that I am not expressing opposition to your thought, rather I’m being a snob and wanting a physical “mens club” much as was more typical 150 years ago.

  45. Russian girls seem to be genuinely turned on by intelligence(and turned off by the lack of it). I think the most women in general are more turned on by artistry(a form of intelligence) especially art that evoke emotion or improves appearance. This is why rock stars can be old and broken down, and still have their choice of hotties. I’m much less muscular than I was when I was 25 but I get more looks and more women tell me I’m sexy now. I think it has to do with my developed sense of style and experience. Also social intelligence is high value currency. Any man who can command a room be it giving a speech or just being the life of a party gains 2 or 3 points in attractiveness.

  46. @Jeremy-
    “Anything that any human being ever does is, by their own individual ability to perceive their own needs, with themselves in the center.”

    I have no problem with this at all, yes, I agree. Yes, the judgement- or the information the judgement is based on is fundamentally flawed, but the drive is towards themselves in the center.

    “so why call blue and purple-pill men out for something they do not yet understand the folly of?”
    Well, in that argument, I was arguing with people who are decidedly not BP. I don’t consider the guys here to be BP, so I think its fair to look back on our past behaviors critically and honestly. In this case, our self interest was used against us, but we were operating under our own self interest.
    It’s fair to say that BP men are being lied to and manipulated, its not fair to say that BP men are not acting on their own self interest.

  47. Rollo, I’m reposting my comment to that link here;

    “She sounds very rational. She realizes many men would be worried about engaging with her because of her baggage and the assumption she wants a new hubby and father. She doesn’t want that. She simply wants a friend with benefits and she’s honest about it. She also doesn’t want her kids exposed to the guy and that’s a very good sign of a conscientious mother.

    She was married so she’s not a “baby mama”. Her husband eventually cheated on her and abused her so she divorced him. Another example of good parenting skills, keeping her kids away from the philandering and abuse.

    She’s not the type of woman I’m talking about. I see her as an example of what SHOULD happen, not what should not.”

    – According to The Zen of Assotive Mating, this woman’s ideal match would be a man in her similar situation. The divorced parents don’t have to go without, they just need to fish in their own pond. Same with players and cheats – let them mate with other players and cheats, I have no problem with it because it takes the players and cheats out of my pool.

    My issue is not with divorced parents looking for “buddies” or even spouses from their own pool, like the lady you linked to was rationally and respectably doing. My problem is with never-married baby-mamas fishing from the child-free, professional beta bucks pool. And those professional beta fish biting the bait!!!!!

  48. @Hobbes

    So, the problem is with Red Pill men saying, “I’m doing this for me” ?

    Isn’t that forgivable though? Most guys here, as RP as they may be, used to operate under a regime where they were led to believe that you should just do things for women, because you’ll be rewarded.

    I’ve found myself saying those words, and honestly as corny as this sounds, it actually helps my mental state to do so. It reinforces the fact that I used to believe the bullshit that women were angels who rewarded men for virtue, and now I know that I must consider myself first.

  49. @Rollo thanks for this one. I’ve been struggling recently – and had to write a post today about allowing yourself to become an Old Pair of Shoes – it’s so easy to “forget” all this stuff, and slip into the void again.

  50. “You see, whenever a Man engages in any leisure activity, passion, hobby, etc. that doesn’t directly benefit his wife or girlfriend it’s always perceived as a waste of time. If she cannot realize a tangible result that benefits her – or by way of her, the potential “family” or the “relationship” – your effort is pointless and frivolous in contrast to engaging her, entertaining her or relating with her.”

    Sometimes they can’t even help themselves when it WOULD benefit family, relationship, with tangible benefits if it conflicts with what they want NOW.

    Working in one job which I hated, which I sensed was heading for oblivion (I was right) I started spending my own time, including some weekends, I training for another. I remember getting into a screaming match over it one Saturday afternoon because she was acting like I was sitting in front of an X-Box, ie, dicking around.

    And for a woman, my wife is pretty damn practical, to a fault.

    I eventually got the job, with sizable financial benefits and job security.

    @Hobbes

    “You are all already doing, and have always done everything for yourself. This insistence and obsession with “its all about me”, as I said in the last thread is fairly juvenile. You have always been at the center of your own existence, it is impossible not to be.”

    Sorry, I flat out reject this for it’s absolutism.

    I understand your point that many time we often have hidden motivations, even from ourselves.

    But it also the truth that we often sacrifice our own self-interests, thinking “it’s the thing to do”, because…

    For example, part of my issue dealing with woman when I was younger was, despite my feelings, desires, I would not make advances because of morality or ethics (I thought I was taking advantage just by responding to desire). I did not want to get involved sexually with any woman I was not ‘serious’ about because it was not fair to her, ignoring my own needs. I was not doing it to be the “nice guy” who won her favors but was doing it out of some pseudo-chivalrous ideal of it being ‘the proper thing to do’. Gone from the equation was the idea that proper thing to do for a teenager entering puberty was to express their sexuality.

    For another example, in my family life, because of a very troublesome older sibling, I made a conscious decision at an early age to NOT create problems for my parents who had their hands full. I did not due it for praise, but to spare other people more pain, but in exchange, I subverted my rebellious phase which has had lasting negative effects.

    I am a man in his 40’s, who, despite having a well-paying career, a house, family, yadda-yadda, finds it hard to figure out what *I* really want. I find myself reflexively falling back into patterns of doing what I *should* so, not I *want* to do. Hell, I can’t even think clearly about what is I want to do, the programming is so deep.

    My point is, there are indeed instances where people are not self-regarding, even if they often are at a core level.

  51. Titus 2:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

    3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

    5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
    __________________

    There is a reason this has to to taught

  52. @Hobbes – I was diagnosed with CPTSD in 2009, finally after being misdiagnosed for years (i have at least three “qualifying events” by age 8). I ended up starting to pass out in 2005 and was hospitalized for it. It turns out my rock climbing fall in 2002 triggered the PTSD it into hyperspace. I had it somewhat managed before that injury to not let it debilitate me through lots of therapy. I quit drinking at 33 too, so I was forced to deal with how I was medicating with booze. I decided at that age to go have the life of my dreams. The rock climbing fall, years later, was life threatening and very painful. I messed up my knee quite badly requiring surgery. Ton of pain, scary as shit. I had lucid dreams about it, developed insomnia like nothing I could ever imagine and my stress/anxiety level skyrocketed.

    I won’t go into it all here, suffice it to say that I’ve done a lot of treatment. It’s much better than it was, but the onset of much more severe symptoms was hard on me. When I went to the hospital after getting vertigo so bad I couldn’t get up out of bed, I passed out in the ER. My blood pressure plunged to 60/20. They did full cardio and neuro workups – nothing. In fact, I have the cardiovascular system of a young pony. But somehow “syncope” could be triggered by my super high anxiety levels. When I came to, there I was surrounded by machines and people and noises and lots of activity. It freaked me out actually, and I suddenly realized how serious this was. They admitted me for 3 days. Due to CPTSD, which wasn’t diagnosed until 4 years later.

    Worst part? Their answer was benzos – klononpin, yeah, that was a great idea. Within 6 weeks I could see I was becoming addicted and I threw them in the toilet, particularly after finding out there is an epidemic of benzo addiction out there, lots of women popping them like tic tacs…25% of American women are on some kind of psycho-active medication, you go gurl! Me? I just smoke some indica weed when it gets out of hand, non addictive and a good buzz too. It’s the only way I can amp down sometimes. Also helps when sleep is far away…

    As for getting together, I’m game. I’m in NH though but get to NYC a lot. Also up for any kind of chat stream or whatever.

  53. @Rollo

    Thanks for link. Not sure how I missed that one when I was reading your whole blog a couple years back.

    I think the modern apex of that tendency is astrology. It’s rare that I start a new relationship without the woman bringing up the compatibility of our signs within the first few weeks.

    @Hobbes & Dhorrenbrand

    You guys are right. A lot of these girls express aspirations to develop a meditative practice of their own. Of course this never happens…

    A few months in, once they realize what I do is no more glamorous than sitting in silence for long periods of time, and that I claim no special powers, they begin to question why I don’t put more effort into my career.

    I assume with career oriented guys, they simply proclaim the guy overly materialistic and express a yearning for a more spiritual man.

    @MadYaleGrad

    I think the examples you see of spiritual guys wifing up single moms is a result of the proliferation of beta posers in the spiritual scene.

    Most western buddhist centers are operated by and for diehard lefties. As you’d expect, the majority of these guys are just wimps looking for a way to proclaim their passive behavior as righteous. Their dedication to actual practice is weak, and they talk in spaced-out grandiose terms.

    This type of stuff is why I always avoid mentioning spirituality to anyone unless I see they are truly interested in the substance. I tend to delay telling women about my pursuits, but eventually it comes out, as I’m not gonna go as far as lying about what I do with my time.

  54. @ Dr. Jeremy

    “A man can have all the feelings and empathy in the world – but as a leader, he cannot let those feeling sway his frame or focus from what is productive, healthy, and correct. So, a man must simply be stronger and more disciplined than his feelings, if he wants to both feel and be successful.”

    Great stuff here.

    As I’ve progressed with the red pill, I’ve found myself gravitating away from plate spinning and towards relationships. Not necessarily longterm, heavily committed relationships, and certainly not marriage, but relationships nonetheless, with genuine feelings and emotions.

    I find the emotional involvement makes everything deeper and more rewarding. The catch is that you need be extremely selective about the women you engage. If your emotions are “faked” in an attempt to manipulate, that bites you in the ass every time. You need to have genuine affection for her. You can also get destroyed by messing with crazy on this level.

    But yea, it’s possible to love a woman for 2-3 months, enjoy the bliss of new relationship energy while it lasts, and cut the cord when things start to fade, before real resentment has time to build for the benefit of both parties.

  55. I’m sure the discussion is going another way

    But I just wanted to note: I have always thought that a girl demanding changes is a man’s lifestyle while in a Long Term Relationship, is nothing more than a test for control.

    And the interesting thing is women in this situation are very cat like. Once the mouse does what they want and just lays there… they lose interest.

    With an ex-fiance I actually fought hard for a couple of hobbies I enjoyed. After college I figured well I’m engaged I could give up one and that will make her happy…

    WRONG she became even more demanding about total control of my free time. I was like WTF and dumped her… funny how the hobby issue went away when she wanted to get back together.

    I think a man that has a hobby/guy time is exercising his prerogative. AND it is a relationship shit test to see if the guy will drop outside activities to “please” the girlfriend / wife.

    Much like many things to the female mind… you have to do the OPPOSITE of what they say to stay sane.

  56. Solipsism

    Today at lunch a very small man walked into Chipotle. He was about 4’6″ to 4’8″‘ tall and weighed maybe 110 lbs. everything about him appeared proportional and normal except his overall size. He was not formed like a midget, just much smaller than typical. Two women were dining across from me and one of them noticed him. She nudged her companion and pointed to him and said, “Look at that little man”. The other saw him, covered her mouth, bugged her eyes out and said, “Oh my god, Oh my god, Oh my god,”. “He’s so little”. They continued glancing at him and discussing him quietly until they left.

    They considered him only in terms of his stature and what it represented to them. Their words, expressions, etc. revealed they thought of him exclusively as a novelty, like a circus character. In their minds “that little man” was no more than an inanimate object. To them he was an “it” of sorts. Their behavior is reflective of how women view men in general…..and how they view everything else.

    As Rollo states, men are subject to a “Burden of Performance” concerning women’s take on men. The “Performance” defines the man in the woman’s perspective.

    In a woman’s reality, the “Performance” IS the man.

    I believe it is impossible for a woman to relate to men in any other way (and possibly other women based on what I’ve observed and experienced). They actually have a relationship with the performance. They are not capable of having a relationship with the actual person. Being the opportunists they are, they fall in love with the performance, not the man. Everything they do and say directly relates to their expectations, hopes, …and lack…. of whatever character roles, provisioning, and outward appearances they desire. Their bad boys and husbands-to-be are selected by careful and constant consideration of how their associations with men make them appear compared to what they think the world sees, especially to what they think their peers (other women) see. A man is like a trinket to be worn proudly and shown off or embarrassed by and avoided based on the woman’s perception of how she expects to appear. Women view everything in life through a lens of synthetic ornamentalities. Apparently they are incapable of anything else. They concern themselves with little more than superficial appearances and gossip about those appearances. Their incessant preoccupation to distort themselves with urban camouflage (make up, hair deformations, lift up bras, butt cheek separating and lifting tights, face lifts, fat vacuuming, tit inflations, Botox, etc.) reflects this fact.

    This is why no woman has ever achieved anything much beyond just “experiencing” life. Virtually all of their experiencing is imbibed with a female compulsion not just for provisioning, but also their gluttonous coveting of materialistic and emotional self indulgence. They are self defeating and will drag anyone down with them who chooses to be subjugated. Gone feral, their gluttony threatens provisioning through waste and destroyed relationships. Current religions and legalities seek to mitigate the damages because individual man has subjected himself in mass and relinquished control.

    No woman has ever accomplished such things as discovering fundamental truths like the law of universal gravitation (in fact they typically scoff at such things because they cannot relate), theory of relativity, string theory, M theroy, composing great musical master pieces, completing great artistic master pieces or discovering the physical dynamics of aerospace flight, etc, etc, etc. Women are far less analytical and rational than men. Their inability to perform at all on these levels may also partially be explained by the fact that they posses about 400,000,000 fewer brain cells than men.

    Compared to men, they are frivolous little creatures.

    No man should ever subjugate himself to a woman or women in general yet today the master has become the slave.

  57. @Sun
    Count me in
    Speaking of dancing monkeys

    First thing to really get me thinking of males performing.
    One thing I’ve come to learn about myself is people with good intentions even myself included aren’t always the best to hear things from. Not that it’s not important to help others but sometimes unless you are willing to help yourself first the person you are being guilted in helping may come out worse. People can only love you as much as you love yourself and develope a heathy sense of who you are. That’s what I see as frame. A reference to a core part of yourself. Game is using that in dealing with te world we live in. Part of how I see feminism killing men by suicide and neglect. Is not mentioning what Rollo went over when it comes to biology. One thing living by dc has taugh me is that people create a huge burden on problems when they don’t step away from them. My environment in school and church was so anti male that I learned early on to not rely on the approval of others I learned that I had to cope the best I could by creating and destroying at the same time. You want spiritual alphas? Best ones I’ve seen are the ones who talk so little that their presence creates a godly aroma not just mystery. Most girls tend to love these men because that is alpha. Jesus could be both in Christian scripture. I think it’s hard to change ourselfs. For me I only change when i see myself being better for it. Most change from prisons and social reform are meaningless. Check out this guy named Shackleton he lead a team to the artic and keep them alive by performing for them in the deepest sense of male bonding I’ve ever come across. You can go through ever hardship in the world alone and be better for it but at some point humans can’t survive in isolation. I know I am monkey I just didn’t know the importance of how that applies in the world I live in.

  58. Jeremy,

    “There is no such thing as a female nerd. Only men become obsessively interested in something (oftentimes the absurdly obscure)”

    – Female nerds are out here. Obsessively so. I don’t know how many men would find that attractive in a mate though. Again, I’m seeing good guys, even nerds, wife up baby mamas instead of female nerds (who tend not to be baby mamas).

    Johnny Bits,

    “I think the examples you see of spiritual guys wifing up single moms is a result of the proliferation of beta posers in the spiritual scene.”

    – I don’t know. The men I’m thinking of aren’t posers. They are genuine about their practice.

    “Most western buddhist centers are operated by and for diehard lefties.”

    – Why do you think this is?

    “As you’d expect, the majority of these guys are just wimps looking for a way to proclaim their passive behavior as righteous.”

    – The really hardcore leftist guys I know are not wimpy. They are quite radical actually, verging on violent.

    ” Their dedication to actual practice is weak, and they talk in spaced-out grandiose terms.”

    – Not the men I know. Their practice is strong, though I know several spaced out new ager types too. But being serious or flakey about spirituality doesn’t separate the wife-her-uppers from the non-wife-her-uppers. They are ALL willing and likely to wife up baby mamas if you ask me.

    “This type of stuff is why I always avoid mentioning spirituality to anyone unless I see they are truly interested in the substance. I tend to delay telling women about my pursuits, but eventually it comes out, as I’m not gonna go as far as lying about what I do with my time.”

    – What about women who are as dedicated to spirituality, if not more, than you are? Why not screen solely for these women?

  59. @Mad Yale Grad

    Female nerds are out here. Obsessively so….

    I have *never* seen a woman with an obsessive obscure interest that she enjoyed for it’s own sake. Without fail, every woman I’ve ever met who had serious interests, had them from the perspective of status improvement or employment *only*. Note that I am making no judgements on intelligence or diligence, only on holding obsessive interests for their own sake. I’ve never seen it.

  60. > “Focus on the things you genuinely find interesting, not the personal validation you think they represent.”

    The danger here [for the family man] is when the CHILDREN fascinate him – their sports and their musical instruments and their homeschooling and whatnot. From the wife’s perspective, it might look to her as though the husband is belittling himself by trying to earn some points in her eyes, when in fact he’s doing it out of fascination and joy, completely oblivious to her presence in the distant background.

  61. Jeremy, I’ve seen it, but they tend not to be very social so its highly likely they are not getting exposed to a lot of people and therefore some people might think they don’t exist.

    Anyway, we can talk, discuss, analyze and fight all day about the skewered mating market out there these days but at the end of it all “love is blind” is probably a truism. Otherwise how else would you explain an otherwise solid, responsible, child-free career guy wifing up a desperate baby mama looking for someone to clean up the mess she made with previous bad boys?

    Two centuries ago in this country, and even now in some others, solid beta providers would have been literally forced by their parents to wife up the good beta girl no matter how “hot” or “feminine” the baby-mama may look or behave. The hot baby-mama with feminine wiles and damsel-in-distress charms’ only choice would have been singlehood or bad-boy fodder. Today? The solid career men are caping up and leaping to her rescue as Captain-Save-A-Ho’s leaving solid, rational, future-time-oriented women to cry alone on Saturday night.

    I mean, I could understand if they hit it and quit it once or twice. Being a 30 year old virgin is hard on anyone, male or female, so I’m not suggesting grown folks go celibate. But why do these guys wife these women up? Are looks THAT important? And going by the looks of it, not all of these baby-mamas are all that in the first place.

    The only thing I conclude is that despite the successful careers and degrees, these guys are really air-headed flakes inside OR they need to feel “needed” so bad that they’d rather foot the bills for bad-boy spawn then to create a truly egalitarian home and life with a woman who doesn’t “need” his money but wants to sincerely share her love with him.

  62. A teenager who allegedly played naked Twister with her mother during a drunken party has jumped to her mom’s defense on social media.

    The 16-year-old girl took to Twitter days after Rachel Lehnardt, 35, was charged with two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor following the incident at their Evans, Georgia home.

    The mom-of-five, who admitted to turning towards alcohol during her divorce, also allegedly had sex with a 18-year-old man in the bathroom during the party, used sex toys on herself in front of the youngsters and later awoke to find a 16-year-old having sex with her.

    But earlier this week, her daughter defended her actions, saying: ‘Everyone makes mistakes’…

    Later, when she was asleep, she felt the 16-year-old having sex with her, the sponsor said.

    The girl later told her mother that she felt guilty because his 10-inch penis was too big for her, so he had to have sex with her mom instead, according to a police report…

    According to the statement, Lehnardt had been a life-long follower of the Mormon church and had never touched a drop of alcohol before her split from her husband James, who was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder when he returned from Iraq.

    But following their divorce last year, she began drinking and ultimately broke away from the church, where she had once been a Sunday school teacher, the lawyer said….

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3043933/Daughter-16-mother-threw-drunken-party-played-naked-Twister-jumps-defense-Twitter.html

  63. You come home from Iraq with PTSD and your Mormon wife is now an alcoholic who’s f*cking all the boys in your daughter’s class, especially the boys whose manhood is too large to fit in your daughter’s vagina?

    Thanks, Neocons, for sending us off to fight and die for the cause! Where would we be without you?

    Thanks, Evil Psychiatry Inc, for unleashing Cluster B insanity upon the world!

    Thanks, Gramsci Project, for polluting our children’s minds the very moment that they first step foot in nursery school!

    Thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks!!!

  64. @Jeremy

    I have *never* seen a woman with an obsessive obscure interest that she enjoyed for it’s own sake. Without fail, every woman I’ve ever met who had serious interests, had them from the perspective of status improvement or employment *only*.

    Yeah, I’m gonna have to second you there. Having spent most of my adult life in nerd hobby communities, I can safely say every female pretty much gave off a false air of interest. She was there because of her boyfriend or there because it was a place she could get attention from guys that she couldn’t get elsewhere. I guess they’d was just too obvious for orbiters with even a hint of social intelligence or something. Nerds would put up with all kinds of shit from these bitches then charge at me with Arthur and his entire fucking roundtable in tow any time I called the bitches on their bullshit.

    Always made me mad to see such smart guys playing the sucker. But as Rollo mentioned, hypergamy doesn’t care at all how smart you are.

  65. @Mad Yale Grad

    “Most western buddhist centers are operated by and for diehard lefties.”
    – Why do you think this is?

    I think it’s a remnant of the 60s movements that brought this stuff to the West. Most of the big Buddhist centers were founded by hippies in the 70s, so they started off Left and stayed that way. The emphasis on love and compassion is also leftie crack — they love to preach and preen, though they don’t really live it.

    “– I don’t know. The men I’m thinking of aren’t posers. They are genuine about their practice.”

    “– The really hardcore leftist guys I know are not wimpy. They are quite radical actually, verging on violent.”

    It sounds to me like these guys are ideologues more so than devout spiritual practitioners. It’s hard to be both, though it’s tough to comment more without observing them directly or knowing their habits.

    “– What about women who are as dedicated to spirituality, if not more, than you are? Why not screen solely for these women?”

    The spirituality of women tends to be of the lighter variety. It’s genuine, but they want to get relief from anxiety and feel better about their lives, not drive towards enlightenment. Your average buddhist place is often more of a support group than anything else.

    There is a reason why the vast majority of top masters are men. It takes an intense drive to practice meditation 3-4 hours a day for many years. This quality is much rarer in the female psyche, though there are exceptions.

    I’m not really a frequenter of Buddhist centers, but the one retreat I went to was filled with casual practitioners (men and women). They’ll practice on the retreat, but drastically reduce if not stop when they get home. This is typically the culture in the US.

    I think it’s a net positive that people participate in this, but I’ve only met a handful of men as deep into this as I am, let alone women.

    I’d love to engage a woman as dedicated as I am, but I’ve yet to meet one. I’ve also found it to be far from an automatic home run even if they do meditate. AWALT still holds of course, so it boils to just another shared interest — it means little if you don’t check enough of her other boxes as well.

  66. Captain Obvious, I give it one year until some “nice guy beta provider” dawns the cape, comes to the rescue, swoops in with great bravado and “saves-a-ho”. Because of her looks and her bubbly and sexually adventurous personality she’ll get wifed up by a solid career man (possibly “spiritual” too) before a solid, nerdy career woman looking for an equal partnership who played by the rules will.

  67. Sun Wukong,

    ” Having spent most of my adult life in nerd hobby communities, I can safely say every female pretty much gave off a false air of interest. She was there because of her boyfriend or there because it was a place she could get attention from guys that she couldn’t get elsewhere. I guess they’d was just too obvious for orbiters with even a hint of social intelligence or something. Nerds would put up with all kinds of shit from these bitches then charge at me with Arthur and his entire fucking roundtable in tow any time I called the bitches on their bullshit.”

    They can’t win for trying? Have some empathy for girls and young women looking for nice guy nerd boyfriends instead of spreading eagle for every bad boy that walks through and then expecting those nerds to foot the bills for all her bad boy spawn in her 30s! So what if they can’t get male attention elsewhere and are looking to the nerd cults for it? Its keeping them out of trouble and with the “nice guys”. They should be rewarded with relationships right then and there instead of those nerds rewarding baby-mamas and their bad boy spawn 10 years later.

  68. Mindset is important here. I’ve started Dj-ing a regular latin dance party. For many years I organized events but then decided to try this. I’ve been hugely successful even though I’ve only done it a few times. Already the haters are coming out putting out little barbs: “not bad” “again”…

    I also use this as a game technique. “Come out, I’ve got a lot of surprises planned”…girls get interested. It’s also not try hard since I’m only encouraging them and i’m doing it anyway and asking them to come along.

    Once in a while I’ll tell girls I had this song in mind while putting the list together. They melt.

    But at the heart of all this is that I find the whole process quite therapeutic putting music together so I am doing this for me but there are some DHV aspects of it.

    This is very different than buying a new car, or new suit or new bike or whatever to impress.

    I can say I’m doing this for the community because I get personal satisfaction in researching, compiling and listening to rare pieces of music.

    “Come out Thursday I’m djing” has both a personal ring and a DHV.

    Broadly I’ve started to do a personal inventory…dropping all references to things I feel/perceive to be trying to impress. I don’t talk so much about myself, I talk about my musical selection. This outlet I find to be very positive or inner game as well.

  69. Johnny Bits,

    “I think it’s a remnant of the 60s movements that brought this stuff to the West. Most of the big Buddhist centers were founded by hippies in the 70s, so they started off Left and stayed that way. The emphasis on love and compassion is also leftie crack — they love to preach and preen, though they don’t really live it.”

    – They interpret love and compassion as “no judgement” and enabling immoral behavior probably.

    Quoting me

    “– I don’t know. The men I’m thinking of aren’t posers. They are genuine about their practice.”

    “– The really hardcore leftist guys I know are not wimpy. They are quite radical actually, verging on violent.”

    Johnny Bits,

    “It sounds to me like these guys are ideologues more so than devout spiritual practitioners. It’s hard to be both…”

    – They are not both. The serious spiritual practicioners are not radical leftists or even particularly political at all and the radical leftists are not interested in spirituality.

    Johnny Bits,

    “The spirituality of women tends to be of the lighter variety. It’s genuine, but they want to get relief from anxiety and feel better about their lives, not drive towards enlightenment.”

    – That’s perfectly OK. One of the greatest dharmic texts explains,

    “Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme.”

    Whatever it takes to get your foot in the door, start where you are and grow from there. If one has a practice, growth is inevitable.

    “Your average buddhist place is often more of a support group than anything else.”

    – Religion in general functions as such.

    “There is a reason why the vast majority of top masters are men. It takes an intense drive to practice meditation 3-4 hours a day for many years. This quality is much rarer in the female psyche, though there are exceptions.”

    – When a spiritual group requires that of all their members, they do it, male or female. Communal or ashram life is best for this.

    “I’m not really a frequenter of Buddhist centers, but the one retreat I went to was filled with casual practitioners (men and women). They’ll practice on the retreat, but drastically reduce if not stop when they get home. This is typically the culture in the US.”

    – Agreed. The Dharma is very young here but as it grows (I believe Buddhism is the fastest growing religion amongst adults converts in the USA right now) I predict we’ll see American culture change for the better and become less materialistic and more meditative and intellectually sound. See this article;

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/brendan-oconnor/we-are-all-hare-krishnas-now-meditation-goes-mainstream-30618281.html

    Remember that currently when a casual American practitioner returns home to mainstream American society after a retreat, he or she returns to a family and home that is, if not downright hostile to good Dharma values, is indifferent to them and not an ideal meditation environment. But that will change. 🙂

    “I think it’s a net positive that people participate in this, but I’ve only met a handful of men as deep into this as I am, let alone women.”

    – Yes! Dharma, even Dharma-lite, is a net positive and making great inroads here.

    “I’d love to engage a woman as dedicated as I am, but I’ve yet to meet one. I’ve also found it to be far from an automatic home run even if they do meditate. AWALT still holds of course, so it boils to just another shared interest — it means little if you don’t check enough of her other boxes as well”

    – Well of course. You probably also have your minimal threshold in other areas for a datable woman, like looks for example, right? Even if Tara herself presented before you as a candidate for the “My 600 Pound Life” reality TV show I highly doubt you’d bite.

  70. The danger here [for the family man] is when the CHILDREN fascinate him – their sports and their musical instruments and their homeschooling and whatnot. From the wife’s perspective, it might look to her as though the husband is belittling himself by trying to earn some points in her eyes, when in fact he’s doing it out of fascination and joy, completely oblivious to her presence in the distant background.

    Just as often and just as likely, she feels threatened, as if he’s trying one-up her, or co-opt her “rice bowl” by showing interest in the kids’ activities that she considers her province. She interprets this as one of two things, possibly even both:

    1. He’s losing interest in her and is shifting attention to the kids.

    2. He doesn’t trust her as a mother.

    Either way, her reaction is a reflection of her fundamental insecurities.

  71. My wife said to me recently, I am the most selfish guy that she has ever had a relationship with. I just looked at her balefully and kept doing my thing. Despite my selfishness she blows me regularly, puts out and brings me coffee every morning while Im still in bed. So I guess I must be doing something right. I haven’t changed from the day we first met and I don’t plan on starting now

  72. @Mad Yale Grad

    They can’t win for trying? Have some empathy for girls and young women looking for nice guy nerd boyfriends instead of spreading eagle for every bad boy that walks through and then expecting those nerds to foot the bills for all her bad boy spawn in her 30s!

    This is a no white-knight zone. There is no defending the wimmenz in a no white-knight zone.

    The point being made is that, regardless of how the female’s sexual strategy manifests itself, the interest in the nerd subject (pick your nerd topic) is opportunistic when it comes to women, not idealistic. Men will obsess over details of Star Trek… purely because it’s a show about space travel and they’re obsessed with the idea of humanity being a space-faring species. Whether women are interested in the topic or not is entirely immaterial. By contrast, women get involved in such subjects because there is social opportunity among male endeavors (regardless of the subject merit). Women go where the men are because men construct a social order from their idealism. But the women don’t care about the men’s idealism, it cannot help them in their largely pragmatic sexual strategy. Instead the women just want to advance along a social order. Access to (relative) high value males within a social group provides that for the ladies.

    This doesn’t mean there aren’t women who love the idea of space travel, or any other nerd topic. However, it is mostly the idealistic men who express their absurd levels of interests in these often arcane topics to the point of coming together to start a new social order.

    I work with female engineers. There are definitely smart women engineers, of that I have no doubt. However, 99.99% of the time, (regardless of how smart they actually are) they engage in feminine game even at work. They giggle at men’s jokes (even the awkward bad ones), they defer to male engineers, they find older men to get attention from to help them move up the ladder, etc… The subject to them is not interesting in and of itself as it is to men, the subject is simply an opportunity to move up that’s far more effective than a bucket of crabs they’re normally dealing with in female-land.

    Male endeavors are the promised land to women because it is so easy for women to advance within a male hierarchy as compared to an all-female endeavor. It’s an opportunity they can’t pass up.

    Men would seek out and organize in their own endeavors, just to see if they can make that level 50 paladin slay the dragon using paper, pencil, and a 20-sided die.

  73. @Jeremy

    Yep. What you’re talking about is essentially what drove GamerGate. Gaming has long been a male space, and when women tried to make it a female space by hook or by crook, it backfired because they were open and clumsy about it.

    Gamers are by no means masculine for the most part, and many couldn’t be further from “misogynist”. But when females wanted to be in game design, then insisted that guys have to like games women design because “The Patriarchy” dudes immediately smelled bullshit. Cue one female designer caught sleeping with dudes for ratings and you’ve got the wholesale rejection of the fembots from a community they never thought would reject them.

  74. reading these comments is painful! It’s the manoshpere guys, not the twinkosphere.

    Fuck me runnin. Blah blah blah, it’s mindless and futile.

  75. @Mad Yale Grad
    “Why are good, child-free men who should be pairing up with good, child-free women, instead pairing up with baby mamas?”

    I think it’s due to one of the many problems feminism has caused. Feminism has ingrained in our society that it’s bad for women to focus on finding a husband right out of the gate (i.e. in her prime years). A good woman is taught to focus on college and career in her prime years. These women are not putting themselves on the market until their 30s – by which point, they are desperate to reproduce thanks to biology. Good men sense the desperation and think “Hmm, she’s this good, but she’s in her 30s and desperate and no one has knocked her up yet – something MUST be up.” or they’re thinking “it would be silly to have children in today’s society.”

    These women, being good women, aren’t switching guys quickly so the problem just gets worse as they get older.

    A “baby mama”, on the other hand, has multiple things going for her – she was sane enough for someone to knock up; the kid is most likely being paid for by the biological father; and, since she’s already reproduced, she isn’t going to be desperate do to so. Or, if the guy wants to have kids, he can already see that the woman is a loving/caring mother. Of course, the craziest ones don’t let on that they had the kid on purpose against the father’s wishes, are actually abusive and use the kid as a pawn in their game of Piss Off The Father until the relationship is difficult to get out of.

  76. “Gaming has long been a male space, and when women tried to make it a female space by hook or by crook . . .”

    . . . they made it clear that they had no idea what “There are no girls on the Internet” was meant to convey.

  77. @Glenn- Yeah, I thought I could see the signs of cptsd is your comments. To be honest Glenn, from your writings I think its apparent that the seeds of your cptsd were planted way early on- as they usually are. It’s why some soldiers do ok and some get full blown ptsd.
    There was never one particular moment that triggered mine- it was a state I lived in my whole life since childhood.. I managed to be “functional” but desperately miserable. I’m not trying to diagnose you, my apologies if this is coming across that way.. It’s just that I’ve been there and have gotten what I would say is 99% free, and learned alot along the way. There is also a connection with caregiving and self sacrifice that begins as an early response to abuse as a child- even when its not obvious abuse. Not to dredge up the previous topic, but alot of what I hear from guys in the manosphere saying about sacrifice leads me to believe they have abuse in their pasts as well and are unaware of the fact that they have cptsd and messed up survival mechanisms.
    There really is alot that can be done, and no, drugs aren’t really the answer. When I finally found someone competent it made the greatest change of my life ever- and this wasn’t very long ago.
    I’d write more about it, and the link with self sacrifice and caregiving behavior, but I think I’ve started enough shitstorms for today!
    As to that beer- next time your in NYC, I’m all in. We’ll have to find a way to trade email/contact info. Not sure the best way to do that here.
    @Sun- were do you live? Let me know what you have in mind as to your earlier idea

  78. sonic freak,

    “A “baby mama”, on the other hand, has multiple things going for her – she was sane enough for someone to knock up; the kid is most likely being paid for by the biological father; and, since she’s already reproduced, she isn’t going to be desperate do to so. Or, if the guy wants to have kids, he can already see that the woman is a loving/caring mother. Of course, the craziest ones don’t let on that they had the kid on purpose against the father’s wishes, are actually abusive and use the kid as a pawn in their game of Piss Off The Father until the relationship is difficult to get out of.”

    In most of the cases I have front row seats to the kids are not “paid for by the biological father” but paid for by the nice guy beta providers. In some of the cases the baby mamas are above average in looks but not in all, probably not most. Some of the beta bucks guys are not that popular with women so their options aren’t huge, I’ll give them that, but some of them are popular, good looking guys who could get child-free girlfriends/wives easily.

    Its really perplexing. We can’t say good girls get the good guys anymore. These women must have some voodoo skills, strong yin or uber-powerful chi and shakti up the bazooka because it just doesn’t make sense.

  79. Rollo,

    Your last few posts have reminded me of one of the key attributes a man must have to be an Alpha; authenticity. An authentic man has his interests for their own sake, and thus they contribute to who he is. They are a part of him. The inauthentic man has interests because he believes they will make him more attractive, which paradoxically they do not.

    An authentic man is resistant to being changed by a woman. An inauthentic man is easily molded and will betray his beliefs for a short term satisfaction or goal. A man like this is telling a woman that he is weak. An early shit test in a relationship is to see whether a man will either accommodate the woman around his interests or his interests around the woman.

    I have always found it telling how women for the greater part have no interests. No woman I have ever met listens to music as a connoisseur. They will have music in the background, they may even listen to it, but they do not have it as a hobby. They will never spend a great deal of money on the best available sound system. They will see that as a waste.

  80. Rollo, Great post as always. An area of curiosity for me is whether we should default to approach women on the majority of occasions when single? Or just improve ourselves relentlessly so they compete for us?

    Personally prior to my marriage which started 3 years ago I rarely approached and therefore had very rare success so it would be interesting to know your thoughts.

    I was 24 years old prior to marriage and in average shape with a sales job as a footnote.

    All the best DMAN!!!!

  81. @Mad Yale Grad

    “You probably also have your minimal threshold in other areas for a datable woman, like looks for example, right?”

    Without a doubt. Since I don’t buy into “marrying you best friend” a shared interest like this is only marginally beneficial to the relationship.

    Spirituality is an extremely diverse field as well. Of the few women I’ve dated that were regular meditators, this commonality did not result in the rest our values being aligned.

    Value system, desired lifestyle, and attractiveness matching are all far more important than one shared interest.

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