The Princess Experience

 

 

‘Fallen Princesses’ –  photographer Dina Goldstein

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

505 comments on “The Princess Experience

  1. @john q shaft June 29th, 2016 at 8:28 am

    The psychology behind the Taylor Swift lyrics for Wild At Heart are that women evolutionarily want the alpha genes. And they know that after they get the alpha male, the next step in manipulation of that male is to tame him and betatize him.

    And when they accomplish betatization, they are left with: boredom.

    Taylor Swift knows this instinctively, so she puts her Alpha out of reach and unobtainable. That way she doesn’t lose her lust for him.

    Compare to the female artist’s song song lyrics “In Sleep” by Lissie.

    “I know that when the story ends
    The one that’s in my head
    Well, I’ll be alone again”

    Romance porn novels play on this, the unobtainable perfect male specimen. Girls love the unobtainable perfect male.

    Taylor Swift has taken a few rides on the carousel and she knows the score of her feminine desires.

    For more on this read the chapter in Franco’s “Manual of Seduction” book:

    The most powerful aphrodisiac on the planet: challenge……………………………………………..page 101

    Also, you know how Hypergamy became OPEN Hypergamy?

    Well the Taylor Swift just speaks to the covert Five Minutes of Alpha being turned into OPENLY admitting ahead of time Five Minutes of Alpha.

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/01/04/five-minutes-of-alpha/

  2. “So it is true for me. And of course I’m not willing to drop these standard golden-rule-type suite of convictions, just because some within redpill may counsel that …”

    @theman

    Faulty logic. Women don’t want to be treated as you would want to be treated. You need to apply the golden rule differently. You’re not doing women any favors by denying them the chance to get to know you, or have sex with you. It isn’t that big of a deal. If it ends it ends, it can suck but that’s just life. Hopefully you add value and improve their lives along the way. Look at it like that.

  3. That was weird, editing by telepathy.

    @Culum,

    Word is in the review of the Carol Dweck book is that if you agree with the premise of the first chapter, they you can stop reading the rest of the book.

    A lot of those books in that link don’t have to be actually read. In the old days we actually had to read the book, today with the internet, you can learn a lot just by searching their content and ruminating.

    The Talent Code is great, I saved time on reading that by reading the Little Book of Talent, which was a cliff notes version.

    And I still can’t say enough good about Franco’s (Manual of Seduction, and as co-author or Practical Female Psychology) and Shark’s book The Black Flag. They are pretty all encompassing red pill and game. Any guy can save a lot of manosphere time by reading those three. They are fun to read and positive in mindset.

  4. SJF – you know the funny thing about Taylor Swift and Katy Perry and the like – much of the material is written by some heavy-hitter Swedish and Norwegian music producers (who are actually the ones probably more-so shaping the cultural memes around this catchy drivel). But it sells – and that’s the point I guess. Feedback loops man – sometimes these feedback loops are perverse for no other reason than it pays by way of dinero.

    Max Martin (Swedish) and others:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/hit-charade/403192/

  5. @The Man
    “why is it ironclad? Cause it has been well tested, man, and found to be worthy”

    Guess how you test your confidence in talking to girls. You talk to girls.

    ” ……. by what dynamic does this happen?”

    Infield experience instead of mental masturbation.

    “by way of forming some strong convictions that inform his behavior,”

    Guess how you form those. Talking to girls and putting yourself in social situations and learning what your convictions are. You are trying to promote the idea that everyone just sit and home and “think” their way into strong convictions. You are a mental masturbator trying to rationalize your mental masturbation as the “right” way. You don’t “think” your way into strong convictions any more than you “think” your way into being confident in a ring fight against a professional boxer. You fucking BOX until you have infield reference experience that you’re good at that.

    And when you’re good at boxing and know that with conviction, that STILL doesn’t translate to interacting with women confidently. That’s not theory, that’s field experience we’ve gathered from taking hundreds of thousands of AFCs into the field who fall apart in front of a girl even if they have strong convictions and confidence in other areas.

    You fundamentally don’t understand how to teach men or where AFCs or coming from or how their psychology works when they’re taught or how to make them better with women or more confident overall. You are a keyboard jockey mentally masturbating over and over regardless of what anyone says, disregarding or warping anything you can to try to rationalize your retarded theory that doesn’t hold up infield.

    “allowing him to more or less effortlessly act in ways that do not produce too much if any anxiety for himself”

    Guess how you get over a fear of something. You expose yourself to that thing until your brain gathers enough reference experience that it’s not as bad as it imagined so you get rid of that anxiety. You don’t “think” your way out of it in your armchair.

    “because his particular convictions are just so good”

    You can’t test your convictions without putting them under pressure. What scray is saying is a guy who hasn’t fucked a girl hasn’t put his convictions in that area under pressure.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s fucking a woman or any other thing that you want to do but are scared or don’t know how to do. If you have desires and are scared to engage them, you don’t fully know yourself.

    “no longer can anybody kick the confidence-legs from beneath him,”

    Not if he gets confidence from the field. If he “thinks” his way into it, it will crumble. You don’t understand this because you don’t take AFCs infield and put them in front of hot girls and show them how to fuck them.

    “because the constellation of his convictions hang together in tensegrity (a Buckminster Fuller term), each conviction strengthening the rest, by way of a tension that is not so irreconcilable as to be akin to a breaking tension.”

    This is woowoo nonsense bullshit fluff that doesn’t hold up infield. Guys who’ve been in wars, confident CEOs, etc run off bootcamps scared shitless because they’re still scared to talk to girls. Because confidence in other areas does NOT translate to confidence talking to hot girls despite your wishful mental masturbation. We have field tested the FUCK out of this. You are wrong and don’t understand how shit actually works.

  6. Andy:

    “Faulty logic. Women don’t want to be treated as you would want to be treated. You need to apply the golden rule differently. You’re not doing women any favors by denying them the chance to get to know you, or have sex with you. It isn’t that big of a deal. If it ends it ends, it can suck but that’s just life. Hopefully you add value and improve their lives along the way. Look at it like that.”

    Well of course I realize that. You can’t actually practice the golden rule convictions if you don’t seek the other perspective, or seek the many perspectives, at least by way of “consideration”. Everybody’s motivations, focus and desires tend to be a bit different (and women and men quite a bit different). So the value in seeking the other perspectives and the many perspectives, is one of the convictions among the standard golden rule suite of convictions (and I have talked about the value of this particular conviction a few times here already).

    Now – all I’m saying wrt relationships with women – I want to be treated with respect and expect that from others, and therefore I would like to reciprocate that, because I see much value in the reciprocation, if the conditions for mutual respect have been met. OK – here is the deal – women don’t actually really know why they are attracted to you (like I said earlier – all they know is that they feel it). Now ….. that means I got some knowledge they don’t have, and I can’t really give that knowledge to them. What this ends up eventually meaning is …….. if things don’t end on their terms …… they are going to end up feeling disrespected. So …… I get what Scray is saying, when drama gets too much in the way …. soft next …… like manipulate it towards “things ending” as being her idea. OK …… good. I see the value in that. Given everything we know about redpill (at least by way of my take-away) that is the proper procedure. But that still means drama to me. And drama does involve at least some investment by way of my cognitive/emotional resources like I said above.

    Andy you know – maybe we aren’t really arguing a point after all …. but maybe agreeing? Maybe you actually see things my way (you know golden rule convictions as good) – because you did say – “Hopefully you add value and improve their lives along the way. Look at it like that” – and yes – if you think or judge that you can’t bring that – then I would say don’t get involved with that particular woman – agreed?

  7. @Blaximus

    So, if a man calls himself an astronaut, yet never left earth’s atmosphere, is he really an astronaut? Or is he in effect, an astroNaught?

    @ Sentient
    ” If a virgin man has sex with a prostitute is he a man or not?”
    Depends. If the prostitute’s name is Mark, then no, it doesn’t count.

    lol…

    @Blax
    @kfg

    @ kfg
    Precisely. I dig that.

    i’m pretty sure you know it’s yeats…lol… (though it does sound like it could be kfg original…lol) but for pedantic thoroughness…lol… (and plus i really like it…lol)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(poem)

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    hey, that kind of sounds like that ‘looks matter’ thread…lol…

    good luck!

    ————–
    @hank

    Well, if just thinking of opening can help, perhaps I should try imagining opening and it being successful.

    this is actually a great practice (if you can’t get in-field… or you need to get over some sticking point)… it is called ‘creative visualization’ in cognitive therapy… but in addition to ‘being successful’, which is where you always want to end up…lol…you can also work through how to deal with problems that usually arise in set…or are your sticking points…

    you can ‘practice’ scary shit that has happened/might happen and work through solutions before hand… right in the safety of your own private space!…lol…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_visualization
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_imagery

    it’s like guided imagery… except you do it for yourself, by yourself… there are websites that have advice on techniques you can use/develop…

    but already getting burned out of the venues. don’t really want to go to these places besides to practice.

    so… take a break… lol… nobody is going to fire you if you ‘don’t show up’…lol… just focus on some other aspect of moving forward toward your goals…

    So that’s why I get worn out. Don’t want to be here, don’t have anything to do.

    so, work on your plan to get to someplace better… reverse engineer the steps you need to take to get there… (just like having solid logistics…lol) so, it’s all good…lol… bc if you don’t actually change your situ, you are going to stay in the same place (literally and metaphorically)… (how’s that for wisdom?…lol)

    good luck!

  8. So what I left unsaid wrt my above comment to you is that the reason I see that redpill does not actually offer any escape from this dynamic of having one’s cognitive/emotional resources to be called upon,

    Your resources will only be called upon if you want to accomplish something. That can be avoided. Not totally. But enough to keep you from being taxed by tasks.

  9. @SJF – I’ve read Franco’s Practical Female Psychology but not the other book. And I don’t know this Shark guy at all – will check it out.

    PS – I like reading whole books. Not because it is necessary – you can get the content in other ways, but because reading the whole thing gives my mind more time to process it and think about it and gain insight while reading the whole thing (as opposed to the Cliff’s Notes version). Same reason it’s useful to watch pickup infield videos or RSD teaching videos – it’s not like I don’t know the basics of pickup, but the repetition helps sink it in and each new video has something – some new perspective, or insight or angle that’s useful.

    I mean the whole sub-genre of “performance” books that Outliers kicked off – you get the basic message from Outliers itself – you don’t HAVE to read the rest. But I like reading them and I find I learn something new from each one, even if a lot of the content is repetitive (I mean, how many times can you read about the damn study with the European teenage musicians and their practice hours. Or the 4 year olds with marshmallow and self control).

  10. @theMan

    no i don’t agree with that.

    mastery of the game is THE FIRST, NECESSARY STEP to becoming a full-fledged man.

    makes it hard for me to believe you can slay hot chicks at will.

    are you not familiar with how that makes you feel as a man?

    a guy who is fucking multiple hot women has an almost tangible aura about them.

    it lifts you up to a higher plane of your personal existence as a man. you start reaching further and further.

    getting women is primarily about self-belief. and with self-belief, you reach out and make that stuff concrete.

  11. @Junior
    All we can do is try to warn them, cross our fingers, and then be there for them if it all falls apart to help with the recovery. It’s brutal though, like watching lambs head off to the slaughter.

    @SJF @Blaximus
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTjww638BM8

    Tyler has a better speech in Blueprint where he talks about happiness just being your DEFAULT state instead of needing justification for it. Happiness is a choice. Those poor-ass tribes in Africa still sing and dance and laugh even though their life looks shitty compared to ours. Little kids run around smiling and laughing even if they’re playing with a cardboard box instead of the latest iGadget.

    But somewhere along the way social conditioning tells us that we need reasons and justifications for feeling happy, and that we aren’t complete or good enough and we can’t be happy until we get those things society has arbitrarily decided we need. When in reality, if we could break out of social conditioning and look at “what do I REALLY want in life?” and focus directly on fixing those things, whatever they are for each man, we would be happier. You focusing on your hobbies makes you happy, me focusing on mine makes me happy.

    And to pre-empt The Man’s inevitable regurgitation: if you masturbate thinking about women, you crave sex, and if you day-dream about cuddling up with a girlfriend etc, you crave women in general…if you are not taking steps to directly achieve those things, you are not being honest with your actual desires which means you either don’t know you HAVE those desires which means you don’t know yourself ’cause you’ve avoided situations that would shove that desire in your face for you to finally confront, or you know and deny yourself and lie/rationalize your lack of action.

    When scray says not fucking = not knowing yourself it’s the same as having any other desire and being in denial or not working toward satisfying it. It just happens that every straight guy has those desires except the occasional asexual guy who’s literally biologically wired all fucked up or has some kind of chemical imbalance etc going on.

    “An idea began to percolate in my mind: maybe there is something about getting older that teaches you how to live better”

    Like Fight Club said: until you know that one day you are going to die, you are useless.

    @The Man
    “I want to be treated with respect and expect that from others”

    Then why isn’t anyone here treating you with respect. How long does everyone have to shit on you before you realize the world doesn’t work the way you fantasize it does. And if no one HERE is treating you with respect as you keep digging your hole, what makes you think women just “should”? Reality overrules fantasy.

    “if things don’t end on their terms …… they are going to end up feeling disrespected”

    No. That’s not how it plays out. Fucking jockey.

    “soft next …… like manipulate it towards “things ending” as being her idea.”

    You have no idea what a Soft Next is or what it does. Do your homework.

    “And drama does involve at least some investment by way of my cognitive/emotional resources like I said above.”

    Tell us all about how not communicating with a girl requires resources.

    @Culum
    “I like reading whole books. Not because it is necessary – you can get the content in other ways, but because reading the whole thing gives my mind more time to process it and think about it and gain insight while reading the whole thing (as opposed to the Cliff’s Notes version).”

    lol I’m the opposte. I read about 4 sentences of SJF’s old people in the hospital post. That shit was LOOOONG. I just skim for where the action picks up. Tai Lopez is a tool in his YouTube ads but I thought these were some clever observations:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca7Wt8lDK0s

    I get that the act of sitting down and reading a book can be a cool zen experience for people though and more power to ’em. I blame MTV and YouTube for my need to skip through text and videos as fast as possible lol

    That said, if it’s something I really want to take in in-depth or am getting something new out of, ya, I’ll read closer. But most of the stuff like “what old people regret” is stuff I’ve seen/heard/read a dozen times already in the PUA community.

  12. What most people leave out in the study of tensegrity is the islands of compression. Compression and tension have to balance if you want stability.

    Tension is easy. It self aligns. Compression not so much.

  13. Yareally – Jeez man – mental masturbator – OK – if you say so – I can wear that badge if you want ……. masturbation, or self-gratification feels good, doing the self-gratification wrt the the use of the cognitive apparatus can also feel good. You do know there is an emotional component to cognition – right? Like why do you think you obtain personal positive feedback when pondering things and applying logic to the data of your life circumstances – because it feels good when you get it right dammit – otherwise why wouldn’t do it – right? Why do you think humans are “designed” for that particular capacity for cognitive/emotional interface? Because it provides real value in the lives of the practitioners – right?

    Look – the key to what I just said above is “applying logic to the DATA OF YOUR LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES”. How do you think I know what I know – life experiences ….. then apply the logic. YaReally – that is in fact what Owen Cook, Julien Blanc, YaReally and Scray also do. And better yet you guys share your logic, so applied to your own life circumstances, with everybody else so we also all get additional points of reference – right?

    YaReally – why the doubling down on the outrage? I actually made one tiny tiny point about the zen-koan quality of the changability of output wrt the ordering of priorities wrt to man’s focus on women, as occurs during the operation of said focus….and you seem to be freaking out here. Why? I think you probably agree with me too – right? So what gives?

    Now enough of that …… the ironclad confidence …… of course women have been “designed” to heavily test that. That is what I have contended here, as has redpill and pua Furthermore I have said that a beautiful symmetry actually exists here, but at the subliminal level woman-wise, which is just an extremely beautiful condition , evol-“design”-wise, of the overall man/woman symmetry, when we see clearly that the women have available to them the ability to strongly test the ironclad masculine confidence, without the knowledge of what the conditions of this ironclad confidence, man-wise, is. That is just so cool when one grasps this. So ……. if a man cannot keep his confidence intact when dealing with women ….. well it is not ironclad then. But ……. a man doesn’t actually get this ironclad confidence by dealing with women per se (but perhaps that may be one route for obtaining that), but by way of forming personal convictions held in tensegrity – and like I said there are many routes that aid that endeavor.

    YaReally – your method is not superior just because it is your method. It is a method. It is subject to idiosyncrasies as I am sure every such other possible methods are subject to. I pointed out one of the major idiosyncrasies, is all that has occurred here on this thread. It is good to know about this idiosyncrasy – is it not?

  14. The Man
    June 29th, 2016 at 11:51 am

    If you only deal with your circumstances you have insufficient data.

    In my opinion you are a poseur. My experience matches the various Alphas who post here. OTOH every thing you post is precessional. Ninety degrees out of phase. Either you are in a different universe or you are in error.

    BTW I lived in Buck’s dome in Carbondale for two weeks. Back around ’73 or ’74.

  15. In fact my access to Bucky’s dome is one of the things that convinced the LTR to give me a try. We are still together. I made no commitment of exclusivity.

  16. HABD

    come now HABD… you know that looks do “matter”…

    scray
    yeah that’s why I hate dressing up and looking too well, it really just changes the game. like, if i look schlubby and hide my body under clothes that are a little loose, then I feel like I can move off the radar and pull more shit with a wider variety of girls.
    but if I’m all maxed out, I pretty much can only have fun with the 8+ girls because the 6-8’s just think I’m too high value.
    that DOES happen.

    girls can think you are TOO GOOD for them and they can REJECT you based on this. even hot girls can do it sometimes.
    also, regarding ‘looks’ and other stuff….
    tbh, I learned more about how to dress myself and what type of body to go for, etc. from PUA than from anything else.
    Like i can put together a killer outfit for slaying pussy in pretty much any tribe — rocker, professional, ‘nerd chic,’ hipster, etc. and it’s because I understand the basics of all those styles and i also understand peacocking very well, which allows me to easily see how to add edge to every style.

    Looks will keep coming up.. because it is an easily observable phenomena… ‘looks” is perception, perception is reality. Now we can fire up the hyper extrapolation machines and the upside down thesaurus and render opposite conclusions….

    It is a topsy turvy world after all…

  17. mastery of the game is THE FIRST, NECESSARY STEP to becoming a full-fledged man.

    makes it hard for me to believe you can slay hot chicks at will.
    are you not familiar with how that makes you feel as a man?
    a guy who is fucking multiple hot women has an almost tangible aura about them.

    it lifts you up to a higher plane of your personal existence as a man. you start reaching further and further.

    getting women is primarily about self-belief. and with self-belief, you reach out and make that stuff concrete.

    This.

    Story time: Between the ages of about 20-22 my sole focus in life was playing in the Hollywood metal/glam scene. Laugh all you want, but we got laid like tile. That was really a transitional phase for me even though I didn’t realize it most of the time.

    I can’t say my only point to it was fucking hotter and hotter women – there was the social proof aspect that carried a lot of gratification and I truly loved the music, the scene, the people, the show, just the whole fucking atmosphere.

    It was fucking great. I didn’t even need to be on the strip to hook up back then. I’d take trips to visit my Mom or brother in Tahoe and hit the clubs there where no one knew me. They weren’t even rock clubs, but my vibe was so ON I’d have women, totally unfamiliar with the scene I was from fuck me on same night lays.

    It was so fucking easy, and honestly that was one of the biggest dangers of it for me. I’d gone from a very Blue Pill Beta mindset, one of begging necessity to one of very ample abundance and that really changed who I was and who I’d become.

    There was one point I walked into this club called Coconut Teasers on the strip with some band mates and friends from other bands. I literally walked into the club and within 3 minutes a gorgeous stripper-tier blonde, sees me coming, leaves her friends, grabs me around the waist, starts talking to me like we’ve known each other for years and we’re making out – later a SNL.

    I did nothing. My game was all social proof, recognition and preselection. All I had to do was not fuck it up, and by that time I had fucked several other women of her calibre of looks and eagerness so it was a slam dunk.

    It was the next morning that I actually contemplated how much my life had changed and how I was in a position that no male member of my family present or past had ever had access to. It wasn’t all roses and glory, but it was fucking great to know I could nail women that most guys only jerked off to in magazines (no internet back then).

    I’m a “loves the sex guy”. I couldn’t have cared less about the prestige a lot of guys think men need to show off to other guys with regard to women. I didn’t want to show up to a club or a gig with a girl, it was a hinderance to my sampling what was available. It wasn’t about the hunt either. I rarely had to apply myself back then to get laid and then only if there was a girl with a look I’d never tried before. If I ran into resistance I had so many standbys I rarely dealt with it.

    Access to abundant pussy is a life changing experience for guys. To be able to walk into a club and have a woman pull you out is a fucking high, but even with Game and having access when you had none before is a step in men’s maturation process.

  18. @Emily – I, for one, take no pleasure at your travails. It seemed that you were making a legit attempt at a more traditional relationship, but the world didn’t allow that to happen. I found myself in a similar situation when married – I played “the good man” and dutiful husband/father, but the world simply spit in my face for doing that.

    I hope some prayerful reflection helps you figure your next course. I think you may want to consider a man about 10-15 years your senior, who is accomplished and has a life is someone you could respect and enjoy being submissive to. What you miss about Liz is that she’s submitting to a man who flew (or still flies) fighter jets. Do you have any idea just how elite a standing that is in the real world? Do you know the kind of men (for the most part) who end up in command of a 40 million+ flying death machine – 1000knots, upside down, 500 ft off the deck?

    Not pussies. Not low value men. They select for alpha dogs – this is why fighter pilots are always considered to be assholes, cuz they really do believe they are hotshit as there is no way one could do so if they didn’t think in that way. They are the top 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of men who want to be fighter pilots. Flying a fighter jet for the U.S. Air Force is the definition of an elite job.

    Why should you submit to some college boy who has never really been tested by the real world? Find a man who makes you want to submit to him. who tolerates nothing less. Stop “dating” boys, in other words.

    And good luck. Like I said, i try to take you at face value here – many of us have done things in the past we aren’t proud of. I give you a lot of credit for going against the grain of social conditioning and trying on a more traditional lifestyle. But it turns out that lifestyle made a lot more sense when society wasn’t trying to turn it on its head non-stop.

  19. YaReally – OK your latest comment and your sentiment wrt me in general – I’ll come back – I gotta go do things now. But suffice to say for now, that I sense where there may be misunderstandings we may be having wrt differing perspectives:

    – I am not giving anybody any advice on pua nor is that my intention – so that is not my perspective

    – there is another layer of reality below what you are perceiving, wrt the man/woman thing. I am speaking about that. It is pertinent nevertheless.

  20. @TheConfusedMan

    And of course I’m not willing to drop these standard golden-rule-type suite of convictions, just because some within redpill may counsel that

    Golden Rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

    I care more about being treated with respect than being liked because…I’m a man. So I treat women respectfully, but with dislike because they are bitchy or skanks. Women hate that. They’d much rather be liked than respected. So I misapply the Golden Rule.

    Women aren’t like men in many ways. Your application of the Golden Rule is faulty. You have to apply the Golden Rule so that you take the context into consideration.

    “I want to fuck a hot woman, so I seek to be a hot man whom my wife wants to fuck and this requires me to be selfish and demanding about pursuing my mission and thus demonstrate masculinity.”

    This is a proper application of the Golden Rule in marriage.

    Men and women think differently and ought to treat each other differently. Men are to love their wives…which means to flirt with their wives and act like men and not try to be more like women (which ends up making those men into sexually-undesirable third-rate women).

    The Golden Rule in marriage requires you to maintain your sexual desirability.

    I don’t think that there’s a lower shelf than this to put the cookies on.

  21. @scribbler on autopilot

    Stop “dating” boys, in other words

    to reach her you need to reference her peer group, world famous dating expert, branch swinger, and cat owner Taylor Swift:

    “I was thinking about this — boys only want love if it’s torture and a constant chase. Men want love if it’s real, right, healthy and consistent. Any girl who’s really thought a lot about romance and relationships and break-ups has determined that the male species has divided into two groups — and it’s boys and men.

    You can have a 40-year-old boy and a 20-year-old man — it depends on their emotional DNA. I have so much love in my life without having a love affair in my life. I think it’s important to find romance and magic in your life without there being a relationship that constitutes that.”

    see, that’s Hamster to Hamster to talk, you are doing Man to Hamster talk, now rebranded as mansplaining

  22. @The Man
    “why the doubling down on the outrage?”

    Because I have low tolerance for deliberately stupid people.

    Nothing you’re saying is based on anything except your biased warped personal anecdotes. What we’re saying is backed by YEARS and hundreds of thousands of guys’ experiences. When enough people tell you you’re drunk, hand them your car keys.

    “and you seem to be freaking out here. Why?”

    Because I have low tolerance for deliberately stupid people.

    “I think you probably agree with me too – right? So what gives?”

    I don’t agree with you. The order goes “develop confidence in talking to girls by talking to girls”. You are trying to say “Guys can get confident in talking to girls by doing stuff that isn’t talking to girls” which is fantasy LARP nonsense.

    “But ……. a man doesn’t actually get this ironclad confidence by dealing with women per se”

    You keep ignoring what we keep telling you. You get that ironclad confidence with women, by dealing with women.

    “but by way of forming personal convictions held in tensegrity”

    No. Like we’ve told you a thousand times: you don’t develop personal convictions without being tested and seeing what actually holds up and what falls apart and what’s actually important to you when you’re put in situations that you’re masturbating in your armchair about what you “would” do or “would” think.

    And like we’ve told you a thousand times: confidence/convictions in one area do not translate to confidence/convictions interacting with women.

    “and like I said there are many routes that aid that endeavor”

    This is flowery nonsense of a mental masturbator. We are telling you over and over that infield confidence in other areas DOES NOT TRANSLATE TO CONFIDENCE WITH WOMEN. Re-read that a thousand times, not that you’ll listen since you didn’t the first thousand times.

    “your method is not superior just because it is your method. It is a method.”

    It has been thoroughly field tested for 10+ years by hundreds of thousands of men. Your mental masturbation is the equivalent of a Blue Pill AFC dreaming about how he should be able to treat the girl he has a crush on extra nice and she’ll love him. It’s keyboard jockey theory that turns men away from handling shit in the most efficient direct way and sending them beating around the bush instead of fixing their problems.

    “It is subject to idiosyncrasies as I am sure every such other possible methods are subject to.”

    It has been thoroughly field tested for 10+ years by hundreds of thousands of men.

    “I pointed out one of the major idiosyncrasies”

    It’s only an idiosyncrasy when you don’t understand what you’re talking about.

    “It is good to know about this idiosyncrasy – is it not?”

    You can keep polishing a turd and trying to tell us it’s a diamond but that doesn’t make it so.

    @Sentient
    “come now HABD… you know that looks do “matter”…”

    Fuckin whack-a-mole today.

    “it really just changes the game”

    Because Scray has been socially conditioned to feel better about himself when he’s dressed better, so his subcomms improve and women pick up on that and he has to tone down his active game because his subcomms are already demonstrating his value.

    Did Mystery’s hat make girls pussies wet? Do did they want to fuck his hat? Did they rub his fuzzy hat all over their pussy?

    No. Peacocking is LITERALLY demonstrating that you don’t care about social pressure and don’t mind standing out and are used to handling shit-tests and pressure and allow the girl to easily shit-test you so you can demonstrate higher value by passing the shit-tests. That shit is ALL subcomms. That’s why a guy peacocking in a shitty state will get laughed at and a guy peacocking in a good state will be seen as attractive.

    @Rollo
    “I did nothing.”

    Did you hunch over and stutter when you speak? Did you beg her to let you buy her drinks all night? Did you ask her if it was okay to touch her? Did you speak too quietly for her to hear? Did you believe that she must be messing with you instead of actually attracted to you? Did you stare down at the floor when you talked to her, shuffling your feet? Did you prioritize her over your music and cancel your shows to hang out with her 24/7 and tell her how pretty she was? Did you have no other options and not have sex for a year before you met her so you were desperate and needy?

    No? Then you did “game”. But you probably wouldn’t categorize it as such because you didn’t consciously learn that stuff the way AFC Bob at a PUA bootcamp had to learn it.

    “I rarely had to apply myself”

    CONSCIOUSLY apply yourself. You WERE applying yourself, you just weren’t consciously aware of all the subcomms you were demonstrating.

    “If I ran into resistance I had so many standbys I rarely dealt with it.”

    This is game.

    1. @YaReally, oh I’m aware that was Game. It was learned by trial and error, but it got to the point that it was a passive aspect to my personality. Just not fucking it up is a form of Game.

      My point was that once your get past that state of scarcity and the expectation of abundance becomes part of who you are you can’t help but be changed by it.

      Wild Man seems to believe change comes from some process of internalization, and while it might start there, real change comes through externalization.

      If it doesn’t challenge you it doesn’t change you.

      Everyone who reads TRM understands I go into theory a lot (one reason I’m glad to have you and Scray around), but what they don’t get is that most of my theory comes from decades of personal experience and the related experiences of other men.

      If all anyone knew about me was gleaned from TRM I can see how people would get that misconception, but I’ve done a lot and still do more than most would imagine.

      Application and experience matter. That’s why I wrote what I did in You Need Sex, sex should be a part of a healthy man’s life experience. I see late term virgin’s as being stunted in their maturation for a reason.

  23. “Now ….. that means I got some knowledge they don’t have, and I can’t really give that knowledge to them. What this ends up eventually meaning is …….. if things don’t end on their terms …… they are going to end up feeling disrespected.”

    @theman

    So, maybe you aren’t compatible with some chick… How do you know that without having sex with her? Would you feel respected if you weren’t compatible with some girl and she just stayed with you anyway? Even though she wasn’t in to you? Awww damn… You walked into a logic trap.

    “– if you think or judge that you can’t bring that – then I would say don’t get involved with that particular woman – agreed?”

    So, your answer is to throw your hands in the air and pay for sex or jerk off. You’re just rationalizing why you shouldn’t take action in your life.

  24. @gb_hill aka I_hate_RSD

    lol, dude, I open women all the time during the day. It’s really easy, actually, if you just think that you are entitled to women’s attention simply because you’re a man.

    I reentered a store to reopen a girl from last week and she lit up when she saw me and leaned towards me over the counter. Um, DayGame is sooo tough.

    Another broad was checking me out at Panera’s and I caught her and also caught her eye and smirked at her and she got all shy, lol.

    A few decades ago, I saw a woman whom I didn’t know in an apartment swimming pool and opened her and was in her apartment 30 min. later. Obviously, I have no idea how to get to hook point.

    Women have brought me to their rooms/apts. or suggested hookups maybe 20 times over the years during the day. Hook point?

    It’s true that I’ve never approached a woman on the street of a major urban center. There are always retail shops as an alternative everywhere.

    DayGame is soooo tough and different from nightgame, lol.

    @HABD

    in daygame, girls don’t have their hindbrains awake and active… at least not at the same level as during night game… bc a girl’s hindbrain is ALWAYS on at some level

    When an alpha DHV’s (happens because he’s awake, lol), then a girl’s hindbrain naturally awakens. When I am out during the day, girls are continually actively pinging my radar. No, I don’t have movie star good looks (MSGL).

    Gotta go to a meetup and do some gaming (board games and girls if any hot ones show up…or even moderately lukewarm, lol). Last time I went to this meetup a drunk gay dude hit on me 3 times, lol.

  25. From The Black Flag by Shark

    TL;DR……External game and internal game are but two sides of the same coin. The holy grail of both journeys is identical. This does not contradict what YaReally and Rollo just stated because of the existence of a feedback loop: The resources that great external game gives a man strengthens the internal game. Naturals don’t always need to start with external game (because, well, they have it naturally), but non-naturals get a tremendous resource from great external game and that allows great internal game.

    This is what Julien was explaining in his Ten Game Livestream #2 “Pickup as a Right of Passage”. Extend this to all Game, not just PUA Game. The following is not an indictment of external PUA Game, it is an affirmation of it.

    Chapter The Second: External Game

    THE DARK SIDE

    “Every adventure to be had in this room is on the dark side. The people on the light side are asleep right now. They are dreaming about the dark side. The more you try and repress the dark side, the stronger it gets, until it finds its own way to the surface. I sleep well. I dream of angels and sponge cake and panda bears. I don’t see the dark side until I open my eyes.” -­‐Neil Strauss

    Since its inception in the early 90s by Ross Jeffries, the seduction community has matured into a full fledged revolution. Men who previously had no chance of bedding women with their grotesquely homogenous personalities are using preordained techniques to breed their sexually repugnant genes into future generations. The effort needed to satisfy a woman’s internal compulsion to mate with Alphas has been reduced to triviality as practiced openings, calculated body language, and hypnotic routines are replacing the age old tradition of accumulating crass power to appease hedonistic desires. For a few dollars, any impassioned seducer can learn how to imitate Voltaire’s wit or Mystery’s magick. Like divorce and privacy, chastity has been reduced to a statistic and the dramatic mythos of sexual congress replaced with the term “F-­‐ Close.”

    External game pays its dividends faster, but exacts a price for that speed. Relationships couched on fabricated routines have a likelihood of collapsing on their digital foundations. No man can keep his beta core hidden forever regardless of how methodically he can execute game. This isn’t meant to scare you into avoiding the external game section, only to make you aware that adopting a few shortcuts to beguiling vagina can never serve as a full substitute for a strong frame. It is a complaint heard too often in the PUA community when an AFC comes running onto a forum asking for advice on how to get his ex-­‐girlfriend back because his repertoire of lines was exhausted in a continuing relationship.

    The problem with purely focusing on external game is that men often come out of the rabbit hole with a perverted take on Masculinity and Game. Take the average beta for example. After putting down the vagina monologues and reading a couple of books on seduction, he quickly becomes acclimated to the field. But the bazaar of pleasure offered by loveless sex rapidly dissipates as he longs for true companionship. After every time he ejaculates into a boorish dyke, he finds himself staring at his deflating penis and wondering if all this trouble is really worth it.

    External game and internal game are but two sides of the same coin. The holy grail of both journeys is identical. Internal game focuses on developing an inner belief system to reinforce a personality based on freedom, power, and masculinity whereas external game focuses on mimicking the end product of that system with the purpose of eventually becoming that product, effectively annexing the “mimicked” personality into one’s core character. There is no difference between “relationship game” and “club game” or “internal game” and “external game,” they are all the same. Seduction does not change in definition, only in form. It can be heterosexual, homosexual, political, economic, religious, and so forth.

    “Fake it until you make it” is a cheap substitute for what External Game really stands for. It’s not about the categorization of different NLP techniques or compressing emotional rapport into the shortest amount of time possible; it’s about being self-­‐aware over the natural forces that drive social dynamics and controlling those forces rather than letting them control you. Like money, it is only a tool that gives you more options. Don’t look into it anymore or any less. Remember that game is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. External game only illustrates the path to glory, it does not define it. You are not suddenly the master of your universe because you dress better and can get a girlfriend by covering your ugly face with naked humor.

    I, for one, totally endorse “Mastery of the Game”.

    I don’t believe a man has to fall off the cliff in order to wake up (only change because of pain). I teetered on the edge of the cliff, woke the fuck up, went all-in on red pill acceptance, embraced game and now my mental state and internal game is reaping great dividends from my current (conscious competence) mastery of external game.

    And according to my SJF Maxim #2, that game is fungible across all relationship platforms, I did this within LTR game. With figurative plates. But that’s just me. (LOL, Don’t try this at home. It’s hard, it’s scary, it takes great skill and you don’t hold all the cards.)

  26. Yareally

    heh… Yup the act of “putting together a killer outfit” is all about those subcoms…

    +++++++++++

    Dave: “hey man…. that sub com is you! You’ll get some leg tonight for sure! Tell us how you do! ”

    Guy: “Come on Dave, give me a break”

    Dave: “Hey Hey Hey Hey One break… Coming up!”

  27. now lets translate Taylor Swift above from Hamster to Man, by using Google translate:

    “I was thinking about this — betas only get sex if it’s torture and a constant chase. Alphas want sex and relationships that’s right for them. Any girl who’s really thought a lot about sex and relationships has determined that the male species has divided into two groups — and it’s betas and alphas.

    You can have a 40-year-old beta and a 20-year-old alpha — it depends on their emotional DNA. I think it’s important to be able to have sex without there being a relationship that locks you down”

  28. @Sentient
    “heh… Yup the act of “putting together a killer outfit” is all about those subcoms…”

    Hey look at that, you’re finally learning! I agree, the act of thinking “I am confident enough to wear something that will draw attention to me and don’t fear the attention, the social pressure of people paying attention to me and judging me” and inviting that social pressure/attention/judgement from others on yourself IS an attractive subcomm.

  29. I agree, the act of thinking “I am confident enough to wear something that will draw attention to me and don’t fear the attention, the social pressure of people paying attention to me and judging me” and inviting that social pressure/attention/judgement from others on yourself IS an attractive subcomm.

    And all based on how you look

  30. @Sentient
    Look at this guy peacocking, he’s SO SEXY the way he stands out, since peacocking itself is what’s sexy and not subcomms:

    http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I00009lgDlSHmEUs/fit=1000×750/city-london14-15-12-2007.jpg

    It doesn’t matter that he’s hunched over and clearly feels like he has no worth, subcomms are imaginary. Peacocking itself is what makes girls wet!

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/e2/63/4d/e2634d92a8cc2903f77b68c8c4ccb7f4.jpg

    Peacocked homeless-style, but clearly gives no fucks in his body language etc about social pressure. Which guy gets positive attention?

    Which guy was labelled China’s Sexiest Tramp?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1295895/Rags-riches-movie-fame-homeless-man-Chinas-sexiest-tramp.html

    Must be the 6-pack abs you can see through his shirt.

  31. @Sentient
    “And all based on how you look…”

    Because we are socially conditioned to put value on looks, the exact same way the flat-head tribe is socially conditioned to put value on flat-heads.

    But you didn’t understand it the first time we went ’round this merry-go-round so why would you understand it now.

  32. Rollo: “I rarely had to apply myself”

    YaReally: CONSCIOUSLY apply yourself. You WERE applying yourself, you just weren’t consciously aware of all the subcomms you were demonstrating.

    “If I ran into resistance I had so many standbys I rarely dealt with it.”

    This is game.

    Perhaps Rollo was inferring that he had few fears and the hurdles (resistance) were low. It was contextual alpha and he wasn’t Domain Dependent.

    Perhaps YaReally is saying that if men do have those fears and high hurdles a man should move forward with aggressive aggressiveness (good Game) rather than passive aggressiveness.

    (Another passage from The Black Flag):

    A competitive mentality is not the only ground upon which a progressively confident persona can be developed. If the functional purpose of confidence can be reduced to survivability then increasing the number of social adaptations a man is capable of would have an equal effect. Physically, this would translate to cleansing oneself of bodily weaknesses like allergies. In our case, this refers to getting rid of social phobias. From spiders to public speaking, the fears we casually brush off as insouciant manifestations of youth and inexperience are metaphysical maladies that hold us back from functioning at the acme of our potentials.

    While shortcuts can be taken to minimize the amount of mental trauma caused by having to confront these problems, I suggest avoiding them. The trauma caused from facing your bête-­‐noir is necessary, you need to associate extreme pain with the overly vagrant personality you have now. Afraid of germs? Throw yourself into a vat of infectious miasma and absorb your enemies. Afraid of talking to a girl? Do 100 approaches every night using lines from Seinfeld. Afraid of spiders? Hire a prostitute to dress in a Xeno-­‐arachnid costume and hatefuck her till you develop a bizarre fetish for harvestmen. Afraid of physical confrontation? Compete in naked staring contests at the kremlin while wearing a foaming vibrator on your forehead.

    What you’re doing right now is not enough. By the time most people realize that the fears shackling them to a mediocre existence are creations of their own diseased minds – it’s already too late. You have a choice of either overcoming the belching whirlpool of phobias gorging on your freedom right now or ignoring them and passing through life with a blanched face, smiling like a retard being tickled by his own hands.

    To challenge oneself in all aspects of life is to force oneself to grow in ways never thought possible. Evolution is the cornerstone to survivability and thus alphaness – personal evolution is only a myopic version of that same process. It is not enough to approach our fears in life with a passive aggressiveness; we need to approach them with an aggressive aggressiveness.

    1. @SJF, I definitely had fears and setbacks at first. The story I related was when I’d gotten to the passively internalized Alpha state, not the journey up to it.

      And that state is exactly as YaReally describes it: the expectation that you will be interpreted as Alpha, as high value, etc. subconsciously manifests in your behavior, your speech, your presentation, even Game applications like Amused Mastery flow from that preknowledge.

      This was one reason I took to PUA when I first encountered it from the old guys in 2002. I’d already been Gaming from a long time before, it just wasn’t called Game.

  33. @Sentient
    Weird how The Bachelorette even HAS guys get disqualified. Let alone hordes of girls all liking/hating specific guys on the show across the board. I mean, they’re all good-looking rich dudes, so really girls should just want to fuck all of them equally and not disqualify or hate any of them. I mean, why would they all like or dislike specific guys, why would the Bachelorette bother choosing between any of them with any conviction? I mean, what would any of those women base their selection on…some kind of mythical subcomms YaReally made up?

  34. YaReally
    June 29th, 2016 at 1:53 pm

    There is also the alternative of dressing very sloppy because you don’t care what others think. That works too.

    The essence is “you don’t care what others think” confidence.

  35. You always like the goalpost moving and strawmanning…

    The issue never was that subcoms don’t matter, eventually…

    https://goo.gl/images/Kovg79

    Is Santa on this season, someone fill me in. Otherwise i do not see Jonah Hill or Mikey Cera competing here? Funny that.

  36. @Sentient

    come now HABD… you know that looks do “matter”…

    this stupid shit again…

    no one said looks didn’t matter

    the debate is WHY do looks matter

    and honestly I don’t give a shit if you guys get it or not

    go forward and think that your looks matter because of some innate nonsense. it’s just going to stunt your game anyway.

  37. @all

    and no, since i have to fucking REPEAT IT AGAIN FOR THE SLOW

    the reason LOOKS CHANGE THE GAME

    has a) nothing to do with ME

    and b) EVERYTHING to do with social conditioning

    the game changes because when I wear X suit, now suddenly people completely change their expectations of who I am and what I’m doing and my value

    now, could i rewire their expectations there through more personality-based demonstrations? yes. it would just take a little bit of time or my approach would have to be a little different.

    it’s CALIBRATION

    it’s KNOWING HOW YOU ARE PERCEIVED based on MANY DIFFERENT FACTORS

    this is how i know that several of you are maybe at mid-level, at best…

    ugh.

    but i profit off of this kind of silliness so w/e

  38. burnt out on all my venues now

    so… take a break… lol… nobody is going to fire you if you ‘don’t show up’…lol… just focus on some other aspect of moving forward toward your goals…

    nope. can’t do that. its like trying to go back to being blue pill once you are red pill aware.

    now that i have started to actually do game, can’t just turn it off. If I can go out and practice consistantly, then I am okay even if I’m not at the point of makeouts or sex. but i can’t stand just sitting aroun din limbo — i won’t be able to just “do something else”

    an d I am already working on other stuff. I have been applying to jobs to the comprimise location for months, over 50 applications, not a single interview. so I am doing all i can to leave.

    today, went to mall. opened one guy, joked about how a cute girly girl clothing store had a symbol that looked like a nazi one. Joked how they must be gay nazis or some shit.

    wandered wandered wandered as usual

    eventually saw an asian. did the you are copying me bit

    “You copied my hair. Yeah, you saw me here before, and were like ‘that guy is fly as shit so I am going to copy him'”

    “thats not what i did.”

    “that’s what they all say” was looking off in the distance hands on hips as I said it — was almost a verbal sigh lol.

    didn’t do the “this is why we will never get along bit.” good start, but got to warm up to push to new things. just needed one more person here

    wait wait wait

    wait

    wait

    wait

    and TWO FUCKING HOURS LATER, after going to WHOLE OTHER VENUES, day 2, bookstore, fuck all this shit, then finally have a girl I at least sort of like. was a venor. had to wander around waiting for customers to leave/

    had a chance to chat real quick, but passed her. Just took too long, got out of state. and more customers showed up right away anyway. uuh, just i dunno, feel like she has seen me there before and is weireded out.

    just tired of going to the places. tired of being in this shithole. tired o never seeeing just 5s. that’s all i need. A steady stream of about one 5 ever 5-15min is all I needed. It will take me about 5-10 5’s to get used to a new thing.

    So, like for sexualizing in daygame, I just need a bout 5-10 5s to work on in a 1-2 hour time frame. First few I will just get rapport. Then as I get warmed up and pumped up, will gradually get more sexual. Then I am good. Do it a few more days , and its locked in. I’ll be able to sexualize right off the bat, even if I am not in state or feeling well, since I have those reference experiences.

    But I can’t fucking do that when I have to hunt around for hours, if not days, just to find one fucking girl to work on. Last two days there were ZERO girls I saw that met my very low criteria. Asian girl today was the first one in 3 days.

    Done with the malls now.

    Done with the bars. Even lower chance of girls there actually, and I am just burnt on from the past 25 hours I spent there this past months of doing that and chatting with people that I’m not really into — not bad people, but not people I want to hang with.

    Gotta have something with girls to move on. Its like food — doesn’t matter how many chicks or awesome friends or cool job and money you have, if you are starving to death, you aren’t going to enjoy any of it. You won’t be able to focus on anything but food. Get a least a snakc here and there and you are decent, but you can’t just go without food.

    So that’s this here. Just put me in a place with halfway decent girls and I can get 5’s and 6’s right off the bat just about. Easy as shit. But I am just sitting here making no progress with nothing just because there’s fuck nothing here. I would have girls easy as shit otherwise, and that;s why I can’t stand it.

    Expending all my willpower not to slip back into being suicidal again. No I dea where I am going from here. just want to go to bed.

  39. Scray

    “the game changes because when I wear X suit, now suddenly people completely change their expectations of who I am and what I’m doing and my value”

    Exactly… It really doesn’t matter why… you can cling to social conditioning… or evo bio… or whatever… but it is real, demonstrable, repeatable phenomena.

    Understand this… and profit from it.

  40. Scray

    “when I wear X suit, now suddenly people completely change their expectations of who I am and what I’m doing and my value””

    If people’s perception of your value is changed by how you look… please let’s not see “looks don’t matter”: posted here ever again.

  41. lololol

    @Sentient

    If people’s perception of your value is changed by how you look… please let’s not see “looks don’t matter”: posted here ever again.

    becuase, the whenever a girl sees a gay she’s is attracted to, she INSTANTLY bangs him. There TOTALLY isn’t a series of shit tests or anything.

    lol, if girls are attracted to a guy because of a particular look, its becuase that look reperesents certain high value attributes

    but , , , he still has to ACTUALLY display those attributes. If he fails the shit tests, he won’t get shit,

    whereas in reverse, a guy who looks like he’s low value . . . who suddenly displays high value (DHV, preselection, etc) will trigger attraction.

    Just because a girl is initially attracted to a guy doesn’t mean she will STAY attracted and end up BANGING him. All the attraction mean is that she has NOTICED him — he still has to deliver the goods (passing shit test, DHV, disarming ASD, logistics, the whole nine yards)

  42. @ Hank

    By all means If your tired get some rest.Whatever you do don’t sit on the pity pot it will put a black ring around your ass in milliseconds.Don’t have much to say about the job prospects except,California,Florida,and all up and down the Rockies fn boomtimes.Idk baby boomer retirement areas are heating up,at any rate all these are nice places to be.

  43. @stuffinbox

    always write what i feel. makes the good times that much better when i can read where I came from. and it helps put me in a logical mode where i can determine my next steps.

    @sentient

    I forgot… you are an expert

    you’re goddamn right

  44. @sentient

    Understand this… and profit from it.

    it’s not whatever and you aren’t understanding anything if you don’t know why looks have the effect they have.

    looks mattering in the way i say they do is what allows someone to take a jacked dude who starts off at a 9 in a girl’s eyes and pull him down to like a 5 based off of associating his prime source of initial value with a DLV — being insecure, not being able to eat anything real, being vain like a girl.

    that’s why it works. norm X has just been conditioned to be associated with look Y. half of Amogging is just quickly reconditioning the group to associate norm Z with look Y.

    and you’re going to be dogshit at those aspects of the game if you just treat the guy’s looks as this objective, unchanging quality.

    this isn’t even true according to empirical studies. people change their evaluation of your looks based on behavior.

    If people’s perception of your value is changed by how you look… please let’s not see “looks don’t matter”: posted here ever again.

    lol but the technical point is that looks don’t matter in and of themselves

  45. @Rollo
    “but it got to the point that it was a passive aspect to my personality. Just not fucking it up is a form of Game.”

    Right, that’s all I’m pointing out. Naturals describing their pickups and newbies watching Naturals have a tendency to go “He didn’t even DO anything!!” which is how we guys end up looking for externals that fit their socially conditioned value system to explain it “It MUST be his (looks/money/race/clothes/etc)” and end up perpetuating limiting beliefs. It’s important to understand that we have to look deeper than the surface level.

    “My point was that once your get past that state of scarcity and the expectation of abundance becomes part of who you are you can’t help but be changed by it.”

    Agreed. You can also fall back into scarcity if you remove yourself from that stuff, as we see when PUAs/Naturals settle down into monogamy and voluntarily remove interacting with other women from their lives and turn into complete chodes who’ve lost their “mojo” (VS your situation, where your job involved interacting with them, which is the type of thing I would recommend any guy attempting an LTR do, have a regular source of interacting with other women even if it’s just hitting the bar once a week with a friend or working or doing a hobby in an environment with women)

    “Wild Man seems to believe change comes from some process of internalization, and while it might start there, real change comes through externalization.”

    It’s what every keyboard jockey newbie who’s scared of the field wants to believe: “maybe I can just THINK my way into being good with women!! That way I won’t have to go out and interact with girls because it’s SCARY!!” which is the same thing that drives guys to go get jacked while still not approaching girls, or go make sick bank while still not approaching girls, they’re trying every way they can think of to get around having to put their ego on the line and actually approach girls and learn to interact with them.

    We see it allllll the time in the PUA community. Newbie resistance to reality. That’s why I keep calling Wild Man a keyboard jockey who’s mentally masturbating.

    “If it doesn’t challenge you it doesn’t change you.”

    Agreed. Like I say, who I THOUGHT I was before I did pickup is very different from who I ACTUALLY was. I THOUGHT I would react in certain ways to certain situations, but when actually put IN those situations I found out how I REALLY felt about them, and when I was put in them over and over I started learning exactly where my boundaries/convictions/standards/expectations/etc are. You can’t just think your way into that because as a newbie you don’t even KNOW yourself yet. Social conditioning has programmed you, you’re just running on what society told you to think and believe at that point.

    “one reason I’m glad to have you and Scray around”

    Liar. 😉 lol

    “sex should be a part of a healthy man’s life experience. I see late term virgin’s as being stunted in their maturation for a reason.”

    I boil it down beyond “sex” itself, to simply: desires. If you desire something, whatever it is, and you are too scared to try to get it or lack the knowledge of how to do so or you refuse to try to get it because you’ve rationalized away reasons not to, then you’re not fully being honest with yourself and can’t really know yourself. You just know the “idea” of yourself. We just happen to be biologically hardwired to desire sex. Like look at how frustrated hank’s last post below about needing to get this handled is…that’s a guy who’s being honest with himself about what need is important to him right now, and trying to handle it.

    If we were biologically hardwired to desire holding a paperclip, and a guy was making excuses and rationalizations to avoid picking up one of the paperclips sitting there on the desk in front of him, then going home and being sad that he isn’t holding any paperclips (which means it’s a desire he has), then that guy is not being honest with himself and can’t know himself because he’s never gotten that paperclip and seen what that all entails and learned how he REALLY feels about paperclips. Again all he knows is the “idea” of the paperclips.

    @M Simon
    “There is also the alternative of dressing very sloppy because you don’t care what others think. That works too. The essence is “you don’t care what others think” confidence.”

    Right. All that matters is your subcomms.

    @Sentient
    “Is Santa on this season, someone fill me in. Otherwise i do not see Jonah Hill or Mikey Cera competing here? Funny that.”

    I know, right? It’s almost like society has been socially conditioned to view certain looks as higher-value than other looks, much like the flat-head tribe has been socially conditioned to believe having a flat head is higher-value when, in reality, flat heads themselves don’t make pussies wet.

    “Exactly… It really doesn’t matter why…”

    No, it DOES matter why. Because knowing WHY unlocks a shitload of understanding about Attraction and social conditioning and is what allows guys like Tyler to dominate shit.

    “If people’s perception of your value is changed by how you look… please let’s not see “looks don’t matter”: posted here ever again.”

    Looks don’t matter for sparking sexual attraction, they just put him on her radar for her to observe his subcomms which he can do a million other ways.

    “I forgot… you are an expert… please continue.”
    “you’re goddamn right”

    lol’ed.

    @scray
    “this stupid shit again…”

    lol gotta watch your wording whenever you talk about looks related stuff around here. It’s like dipping a toe in a piranha pool, some guys are so desperate to cling to their beliefs that they’ll do this shoehorn cramming thing Sentient is doing (same thing Wild Man is doing in the other discussion).

    “the debate is WHY do looks matter”

    This. Sentient STILL doesn’t get why the “WHY” behind it is important. Something being inherently attractive and something being socially conditioned to be attractive are two VERY DIFFERENT THINGS, because social conditioning can be MANIPULATED and CHANGED. That’s incredibly important knowledge to understand with regards to pickup. SO many concepts of pickup use that knowledge.

    How a seemingly rational adult can STILL not grasp the difference between those two things after the number of times we’ve repeated this simple grade school logic blows my mind.

    “go forward and think that your looks matter because of some innate nonsense. it’s just going to stunt your game anyway.”

    This is the only reason I address it when it comes up. So guys lurking don’t end up chasing their tails and solidifying their limiting beliefs.

    “and no, since i have to fucking REPEAT IT AGAIN FOR THE SLOW”

    lol

    “the game changes because when I wear X suit, now suddenly people completely change their expectations of who I am and what I’m doing and my value”

    Right. I should’ve added that part but we haven’t done the looks matter debate in a while so I forgot. It’s partly the guy doing it in that it changes his subcomms etc if he’s still bought into social conditioning (even convincing yourself “this is my lucky blue shirt” means your subcomms will be better if you’re wearing your lucky blue shirt that day, so even believing “girls like guys dressed like X” will help your subcomms), but it’s also what you’re saying here, that other people are also socially conditioned to view certain looks as high value.

    The very fact that certain types of girls and scenes have different visions of what “high value” LOOKS like (a hippie girl who thinks a suit guy is some evil corporate monster and has negative conditioning around that, a goth scene chick who thinks a guy dressed normal is a square, a career chick who thinks a guy dressed down is poor, girls in the flat-head tribe thinking flat heads are high-value, etc) goes to exactly what we’re saying: it’s social conditioning and can be manipulated, those things do not INHERENTLY trigger attraction or they would across the board. There’s no tribe where “confidence” (not arrogance/cockiness, which stem from a lack of calibration) is unattractive.

    “this is how i know that several of you are maybe at mid-level, at best…ugh. but i profit off of this kind of silliness so w/e”

    lol if I didn’t give a shit about newbies and lurkers and having an archive of legitimate information out there, I wouldn’t even engage these discussions and would just go out and keep doing what I do and lol that no one gets it except for a handful of guys like you and I and Tyler. Like ok, more pussy for me lol

    “it’s not whatever and you aren’t understanding anything if you don’t know why looks have the effect they have.”

    lol this.

    “looks mattering in the way i say they do is what allows someone to take a jacked dude who starts off at a 9 in a girl’s eyes and pull him down to like a 5 based off of associating his prime source of initial value with a DLV — being insecure, not being able to eat anything real, being vain like a girl.”

    And this.

    “that’s why it works. norm X has just been conditioned to be associated with look Y. half of Amogging is just quickly reconditioning the group to associate norm Z with look Y. and you’re going to be dogshit at those aspects of the game if you just treat the guy’s looks as this objective, unchanging quality.”

    All of this.

    “lol but the technical point is that looks don’t matter in and of themselves”

    This. But this keeps flying over Sentient’s head and has been since day one of the discussion. I have to just assume he’s purposely ducking at this point.

    @stuffinbox
    fucking lol. There’s a reason that scene is so funny. Which brings us back to: our social conditioning says that that guy should talk manly and badass. But then THAT voice comes out and we all just lol at him and as he freaks out reactive to the laughing his value drops lower and lower. Same with gay dudes, tons of them are ripped jacked etc but women don’t flock to gay parades to try to fuck this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gWRUYYpON0

    Meanwhile this kid went viral for the same reason, his voice doesn’t match what our social conditioning says it should sound like:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwTZ2xpQwpA

    It’s all social conditioning and it can be manipulated. It’s important to understand that because that’s what allows guys like us to take girls off better-looking jacked richer dudes. If those things were inherently consistently attractive and it wasn’t just social conditioning and girls pinging off their environment to learn what’s high-value (flat-heads, muscles, etc), it wouldn’t be possible to take girls off them.

    @hank holiday
    “and TWO FUCKING HOURS LATER, after going to WHOLE OTHER VENUES”

    lol this is why in my Krauser review I kept stressing like, if you HAVE access to an amazing abundant daygame location like you can travel to a foreign city and hang out in their prime tourist district full of 8/10 girls, awesome. Just like if you can travel to Vegas and run nothing but nightgame 24/7, awesome. But the average guy is stuck in Buttfuck, Idaho where doing daygame just isn’t going to rack him up the experience that tearing up a club will.

    You could LITERALLY talk to 50-100 girls in one Friday night (that’s not proper game of course, you want to stay in set, but I’m saying for the sake of the example if you just wanted to practice opening as a newbie and chat for a minute and walk off) to burn down a nightclub venue just to rack up experience opening, VS daygame where it would take you months to do that. And then you could do that AGAIN the next night, riding that momentum, Saturday night. And if you have a good Thursday nightlife venue, tack another 50 girls onto that. That’s 250 potential interactions with fuckable girls (the fat old mom chick from the mall isn’t gonna be at the nightclub) in a weekend VS hunting for hours to get even 5 interactions with fuckable girls under your belt.

    “Gotta have something with girls to move on. Its like food — doesn’t matter how many chicks or awesome friends or cool job and money you have, if you are starving to death, you aren’t going to enjoy any of it. You won’t be able to focus on anything but food. Get a least a snakc here and there and you are decent, but you can’t just go without food.”

    Hear that, The Man?

    “Expending all my willpower not to slip back into being suicidal again. No I dea where I am going from here. just want to go to bed.”

    lol nah, you can’t go suicidal now that you know the red pill. Blue Pill is about not understanding the world enough to see any way out of a situation…but once you’ve swallowed the red pill, you know there’s ALWAYS a way around a seemingly impossible situation if you can figure out what it is or what sacrifices it’ll take to get it.

    All your post translates to me is now there’s officially a fire under your butt to figure out a solution for the shitty location you’re in and your brain is going to get creative now, to Captain Kirk your way out of the Kobayashi Maru lol

    Like if I was you I would like, apply at Chinese food or sushi restaraunts (lol anywhere where asian chicks will be) and use the money from that to fund gas to drive to that better city and hit the daygame/clubs there…I’d drive up on a Friday evening with a spare change of clothes (including underwear lol) and my shaving kit and some sandwiches or some shit for the next day etc, hit the clubs and sarge it up, sleep in my car in a wal-mart parking lot after the clubs close (check where you can park/sleep legally, I hear wal-mart is cool with it tho and most major cities will have a wal-mart in them), spend Saturday wandering around doing daygame there and eat my sandwiches to not spend money, maybe nap in my car in the afternoon (bring a black shirt to cover my eyes to block out the light).

    Then in the evening take my clothes bag into a public bathroom (hint: fancy hotels have nice clean spacious ones you can usually just walk in and use, just walk past the front desk as if you have a room there), freshen up best I can (dampen a washcloth and take it into a stall and do what you can in your nether region lol) and change clothes, then head out to the clubs for round 2. And either drive home at the end of the night or if I’m too tired, sleep in my car again and drive home Sunday morning when I wake up. Only money spent is the gas money and cover charges for the venues.

    And even then, google the venues online to see if they have online Guest Lists, or go as early as possible (like 9pm while they’re still setting up) before the girl charging cover is set up and make small-talk with the bartenders/waitresses/etc which helps you build social proof for the night anyway, and you should be able to save the venue cover charge so literally the only cost is gas. While sarging there, I would be networking with people in that city (aka throw girls at dudes in nightclubs) dropping that I’m looking for work there but the job market is impossible right now and mention I drove up from another town and have to drive back after the bar tonight (even if that’s not technically true lol) and fish for anyone who’ll say “oh man, you can crash at my place if you want dude, I got a couch it’s cool man we can hit the clubs tomorrow too” and/or “oh man, you should come work at my place, ya I’m buddies with the manager I’ll help ya out” after I introduce him to some random 6. Probably wouldn’t take more than a couple months of weekends there max. Hell, there might even be a guy there who’s driving up FROM YOUR CITY because he hates it too and you two could be splitting gas and driving duties lol

    But the reason I can rattle out a plan like that off the top of my head is because I have plenty of field experience getting around seemingly impossible obstacles. 🙂 Red pill makes you resourceful. If there’s no valid reason you can’t do the plan I just described (with a few tweaks to account for whatever, I don’t know your life), then you should be doing it lol

    Also read this for a refresher, but multiple the number of people you talk to ’cause this is written for a COMPLETE newbie who’s scared to talk to people and you’re not that lol, just understand the structure/concept of what I’m explaining here:

    http://yareallyarchive.com/2012/12/#comment-heartiste-397072

  46. Way too many men marry, become disillusioned, then transfer all that disillusionment into new hope with baby princess. Please stop doing that. I know it’s difficult. Of course your daughter is the very bestest female in all the universe but…

  47. YaReally – hey – you were one of those OCD-prone dudes that had your shit all up in an knot about your self-esteem, then you had your epiphany … so now you can be the OCD-prone dude that has “seen the light”……. but you still got your OCD deal – right?

    It’s OK – a kinda like the OCD crowd. Just sayin.

  48. Yareally

    ““lol but the technical point is that looks don’t matter in and of themselves”
    This. But this keeps flying over Sentient’s head and has been since day one of the discussion. I have to just assume he’s purposely ducking at this point.”

    There is nothing to duck from my point of view. I never suggested that “looks don’t matter in an of themselves” i.e. would solely get bang… [interesting to note though the perpetual use of further ad hoc micro definitions and semantic play].

    I’ve always OBSERVED that girls are attracted to conventional good looks. Full stop. That does not automatically = will have sex. That does not mean that good game can’t overcome sub optimal looks. Really these are not difficult things to a) observe in field or b) understand. You’ve said so yourself hundreds of times (i.e. RAS drifting back to better looking guy… give me 10 minutes to overcome my ugly face… etc.) and Scray – lol – he has a whole closet devoted to assembling killer outfits for a wide variety of styles apparently…

    But posting pics of a homeless man who looks like a model…?

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/12/article-2143372-130DE429000005DC-31_1024x615_large.jpg

    OK…

    And those enthralled with flat headed Mayans, I suspect on closer investigation you will find that this deformation was NOT the pinnacle of beauty qua beauty but merely a form of status signalling in a social system that was based on heredity… similar to various tribes and Indian caste system markings.

  49. @hank

    nope. can’t do that. its like trying to go back to being blue pill once you are red pill aware.

    now that i have started to actually do game, can’t just turn it off. If I can go out and practice consistantly, then I am okay even if I’m not at the point of makeouts or sex. but i can’t stand just sitting aroun din limbo — i won’t be able to just “do something else”

    welcome to game ‘addiction’…lol… and that’s a great attitude to have…

    an d I am already working on other stuff. I have been applying to jobs to the comprimise location for months, over 50 applications, not a single interview. so I am doing all i can to leave.

    and as @stuffinbox indicates, have you considered expanding your potential move-to locations?… (you might have other considerations in play, like family or whatever, so have reasons to limit, but moving is moving…lol)…

    and like @stuffinbox says if you need some rest, get it, but try not to stress about anything too much bc you DO understand this stuff, and ARE willing to put in the work, and so you WILL get there… and you HAVE been making GREAT progress!…

    do you have some kind of FUN everyday?… i’ve found that is important for me to maintain my attitude…

    good luck!
    ——————-
    @Sentient

    HABD

    come now HABD… you know that looks do “matter”…

    we’ve covered this before…lol… and i probably shouldn’t get into it again, but i’m pedantic…lol…and accurate analysis is tedious…lol…

    whether looks ‘matter’ or not, depends ENTIRELY on what the MAN believes is true…

    the rule is “what you feel, she feels…”

    and so…

    if YOU believe that ‘looks/money/being jacked/etc matter’ (is a necessary component of your overall value to the girl in the situ), then SHE will believe that ‘looks/etc matter’ (is a necessary component of your overall value to her)…

    if YOU believe that ‘looks/etc do NOT matter’ (is NOT a necessary component of your overall value to the girl in the situ), then SHE will believe that ‘looks/etc do NOT matter’ (is NOT a necessary component of your overall value to her)…

    we covered all the whys and wherefores in that other thread, so i won’t get into that stuff…lol… but the basic point is that it’s a ‘limiting belief’, that… wait for it… ‘limits’ you…lol…

    and i can’t see THAT as being a good thing in our development as men…

    Looks will keep coming up.. because it is an easily observable phenomena… ‘looks” is perception, perception is reality. Now we can fire up the hyper extrapolation machines and the upside down thesaurus and render opposite conclusions….

    It is a topsy turvy world after all…

    ‘looks’ keep coming up bc it’s one of the FI’s most successful socially conditioned values…lol… the ENTIRE basis of BB (and whole industries of commerce) is based on this value set cluster… = ‘earning her’…’she’s out of my league’…etc… and as such, it’s a core part of RP knowledge-base duty to ‘kill it with fire’…lol…

    just one question for you… have you tested your confirmation bias on this point?… bc *I* have… that’s HOW i got to the ‘looks don’t matter’ position… lol… bc i USED to be on the ‘looks matter’ team… but then i tested my confirmation bias (on both sides/ways) and ended up on ‘looks don’t matter’… bc that’s the ONLY position that explains EVERYTHING that i see in-field…

    and do i really need to post that star trek clip of spock and the melkotians again?…lol…

    good luck!
    ————–
    @Rollo

    but my vibe was so ON I’d have women, totally unfamiliar with the scene I was from fuck me on same night lays.

    = internal frame of reference/subcomms…

    I’d gone from a very Blue Pill Beta mindset, one of begging necessity to one of very ample abundance and that really changed who I was and who I’d become.

    = internal frame of reference/subcomms…

    I did nothing.

    except have an internal frame of reference/subcomms…

    My game was all social proof, recognition and preselection. All I had to do was not fuck it up,

    and did that ‘not f*k it up’ involve NOT changing your internal frame of reference/subcomms?…

    I couldn’t have cared less about the prestige a lot of guys think men need to show off to other guys with regard to women.

    = lack of external frame of reference/subcomms… do you sense the theme here?…lol…

    I rarely had to apply myself back then to get laid and then only if there was a girl with a look I’d never tried before. If I ran into resistance I had so many standbys I rarely dealt with it.

    bc your internal frame of reference was solid… you were ‘applying’ THAT… on an unconscious competence level…

    And that state is exactly as YaReally describes it: the expectation that you will be interpreted as Alpha, as high value, etc. subconsciously manifests in your behavior, your speech, your presentation, even Game applications like Amused Mastery flow from that preknowledge.

    and sooo, what’s the disconnect between accepting THAT (which is accurate from my experience) and the next ‘step’ (which really isn’t a ‘step’…lol… it’s a corollary…) which is that ‘looks don’t matter’?… bc if THAT state is true, there is no room in that idea for lack of ‘looks’ to mess up your internal frame of reference/subcomms…

    good luck!

  50. @HABD

    do you have some kind of FUN everyday?… i’ve found that is important for me to maintain my attitude…

    and if you have a good attitude, fun will find you, strangely enough…

    FR

    I went to a board game meetup and didn’t game any girls…none I wanted to…was chatting with a buddy by my truck and a random guy came by and invited us to a party at a bar and we went there and chatted up a couple of girls and gamed them.

  51. Subcomms.

    Since I’ve been made aware of social conditioning ( h/t scray and YaReally ), I have been much more thoughtful and observant, and mine eyes have been opened to phenomenon that I’d never really thought about or paid attention to. Fascinating shit.

    But lol on subcomms. I 100% believe in subcomms, but again, I have a blindspot in understanding what subs I may project or possess. It will take more self reflection and understanding, which is good for me.

    Quick story from 1991 or so.

    I was walking in NYC and ran into ( almost literally ) Denzel Washington exiting a hotel. This was shortly after the release of his movie Ricochet with John Lithgow. I’d seen the movie about a week prior. This was naturally before smartphones, so again I had no way to take a selfie, smiling with Denzel…Lmfao.

    He was gracious and nice and spent a couple of minutes chatting.

    Buuutt… other than looking and sounding like Denzel, he was very different from the guy I’d seen on screen. He was just a regular guy chatting about sports and pushcart hotdogs. Hmmmm…. he wasn’t speaking memorized scripted lines, so he was ” regular “.

    The whole subcomm thing made me think back to that meeting. I was kind of taken aback by how ” un-smooth ” he seemed. Lol.

    Acting. Dude was projecting subs ( and still is..). Well, that walk seems genuine though… so subs can be learned and molded dependent upon the mindset.

    If wearing certain clothes make a guy feel a certain positive way, his subs must reflect that, right? Same with a haircut, cologne, drawers – what ever.

    When I put on a nice suit, it’s not about what other people think of it. It’s about what I think of it. I’ll go out in the backyard in a suit and play catch with the kids. It’s just that I know I look good doing what ever I’m doing, lol. I’m not the clothes, I am myself in the clothes.

    When I worked with my Dad at his auto-body shop, we had these heavy weight uniforms that we wore with our names on them, and the name of the business. The shirt was stifling to me, so I cut the sleeves off of it. The pants were constricting, so I cast them aside for loose fitting jeans. When using the torch, little fireballs would land on my sneakers and burn through to my feet I replaced them with big, heavy steel toed boots. And swinging hammers and wielding pneumatic long board sanders made me sweat profusely, so I tied a bandana around my head to stop sweat from rolling into my eyes.

    Funny thing, when I’d walk to get coffee or pizza on my break, chicks would yell at me as I shuffled down the street. Fucking boots were heavy and awkward. The owner of the pizza parlor, Tony, called me The Missing Village Person. He would sing Macho Man every time I walked into his place.

    I was always covered in dust and rust, chemicals and paint and sweat from head to toe, but female customers would always flirt with me and make comments.

    So… idk. Is it ” a look “? I was busy working ( my Dad busted my balls at work. Think of the Tuttles on American Chopper ) and I kind of had tunnel vision, just trying to get stuff done and go home. A chick getting an estimate from me, biting her lip and making purring sounds practically did not register, lol.

    So I’m still parsing the ” looks ” thing. Looks matter, and they don’t. What I think is that it still boils down to the man. His mindset. Women are attracted initially to ” certain looks “, but there’s more to it. Subcomms seems about right.

  52. @yareally @habd

    lol nah, you can’t go suicidal now that you know the red pill. Blue Pill is about not understanding the world enough to see any way out of a situation…

    Its not an issue that just popped up — that was most of my twenties. Just trying to get through to te next day. Only recently go out of that situation, but still often feel like just keeping my head above water

    So it wasn’t just triggered by a bad night out — think people may have misunderstood that — its an ongoing thing now for going on a decade.

    do you have some kind of FUN everyday?… i’ve found that is important for me to maintain my attitude…

    No, that’s the issue. I hadn’t had issues with being suicidal from being really depressed or upset, it was triggered from ennui. Just no point in sticking around.

    So I don’t really have anything TO do. The things I like to do — which are mostly outdoors things or creating things (biz or art related) — I can’t do here. Environment is bad, and people around here are not even remoetely entrepreneureal, so can’t work on the projects I want to.

    Your comment on

    welcome to game ‘addiction’…lol… and that’s a great attitude to have…

    its really triggered by not having anything else to work on.

    and as @stuffinbox indicates, have you considered expanding your potential move-to locations?… (you might have other considerations in play, like family or whatever, so have reasons to limit, but moving is moving…lol)…

    Comprimise location WAS the expanded option. I have, for all intents and purposes, 0 dollars. I cannot move out of my local area any time soon. Not until I get a better job with more hours, get benefits to help with my heath issues, and then get more work experience.

    If there’s no valid reason you can’t do the plan I just described (with a few tweaks to account for whatever, I don’t know your life), then you should be doing it lol

    may be able to work something out, but my situ makes things a lot more difficult. will still look into it though

  53. @sentient

    hat “looks don’t matter in an of themselves” i.e. would solely get bang…

    that is NOT the i.e. that is NOT the “in other words.” that is something TOTALLY DIFFERENT (the idea that looks alone get the bang).

    here is what I am saying —> there is nothing FIXED about any particular LOOK that is 100% attractive at all times and totally untethered to norms.

    of course the REASON why looks ALONE do NOT get the bang is PRECISELY because of what we are saying….over time, negative norms can become associated with someone’s look

    he has a whole closet devoted to assembling killer outfits for a wide variety of styles apparently…

    true, I do 🙂

    and it doesn’t help your point, but you and many others can’t seem to grasp why.

  54. Look guys – female attraction for the masculine – we all know it’s all about the confidence – right?. It’s whatever signals confidence. There are a million tells. Looks can be a tell (until it isn’t) etc. etc. etc. Subcomm can be a better tell (until you happen to fuck that up) etc. etc. etc.

    This is just so fucking obvious. Except the women can’t explain it to you cause they don’t know how to explain it.

  55. @culum @yareally @habd

    was a diner place. saw girl there, so opened. just short chat, wasn’t really sure what to say.

    interesting thing was i opened on wrong body language for a change. was facing her full on, as opposed to normally when I approach her from an angle and talk over my shoulder a bit.

    of course, almost as soon as I opened her, she took a step back. I steped forward as well, not getting any closer, just keeping the same distance. seemed like the right thing to do — had the cnvo gone on a bit longer, I would have stepped back after a few seconds to give her some space. but NOT before I stepped forward — since when you go to far the play is to push it further just a bit to show you aren’t intimidated but you are also calibrated enough to recognize when you are uncalibrated.

    seemed pretty good. everything else in her bodylnaguage was fine, its just the full on facing her is too much and so she stepped back.

    went to mall in bad city. opened a vendor there

    asked her if day was boring.

    she said it came in waves

    I said it was like where I worked

    “Where do you work?”

    “You some kind of police officer? Interrogating me? ‘Where do you work? You got any drug on you.’ Nah, I work at a bar.”

    would have been good oto self amuse further, say something about how actually, yeah I did have a kilo of cocaine on me. A bit of crystal meth and angel dust too.

    talked about bars a bit. when they went out. she said she didn’t like to go to city near me since it was so far.

    “Ohh, so you are one of those girls who get plastered”

    She said no, just worried about cops

    “That’s when you just wear a button up shirt, and when the cops pull you over, just pop a few buttons and be like ‘Oooh, I don’t think there’s a problem here officer.”

    I continued “I mean, that’s what I do. I just pop out my man boobs and there like ‘Okay, you are good to go sir. And, you wouldn’t happen to be free tonite would you? Maybe we could get a drink or something.”

    just joking there, but actualy that’s a pretty good lead in to setting up a day 2. Self amusing sexualizing, but drop in somethings about going outon a date in that litle bit.

    mmm. talked just a sec about how old dudes hit on me and thought I was sexy.

    “Well, I have got some errands to run.” looked at my phone a sec “Hmm, you got plans tonite?”

    she said she did. gong to college soon and has to pack, leaving this weekend. Going to a fancy school. cold read her on biology — she said yeah, she’s being a brain surgeon. Lol on cold reads, I wasn’t even that close but she considered that correct. Anyway, she’s starting early, needs to get moved in.

    “Before you go, we can go out to get icecream or coffee. Will take 30min or so.”

    but she insisted she didn’t have time. seemed more or less legit. no resistance in convo, and if her story on school is true, she really doesn’t have much time to get ready.

    not the point anyway. got some more practice.

    but unfortunately that was the only real practice I had there.

  56. huh. just realized that I can make up where I work, but intentially pick a specific job to lead into sexualizing.

    like I just made up the bar bit on the fly, don’t work at one, but that just occurred to me I could plan that out more in advance.

    a more neutral one anyway. i’ve got the male stripper bit, but that is a bit much to bring up for me in most situ right now.

  57. And is it just me, or have the fags just burst out of the woodwork?

    I have seen SO MANY flamers recently its ridiculous.

    guess i could always just be gay lol.

  58. @theasdgamer

    @HABD

    do you have some kind of FUN everyday?… i’ve found that is important for me to maintain my attitude…

    and if you have a good attitude, fun will find you, strangely enough…

    yep, i’ve found that’s true, too… lol… everybody loves ‘the FUN'(tm)…lol… and wants some part of it…

    but i’ve noticed that it’s actually pretty rare ‘in the wild’… most peeps are pretty grim mostly… lol… like they don’t really have ‘permission’ to have it… lol… but that’s just the social conditioning in play… so ‘the FUN'(tm) pings as a big ass DHV!!… lol…

    good luck!
    —————-
    @Blaximus

    Subcomms.

    Since I’ve been made aware of social conditioning ( h/t scray and YaReally ),

    HEY! what about ME?… lol…

    I have been much more thoughtful and observant, and mine eyes have been opened to phenomenon that I’d never really thought about or paid attention to. Fascinating shit.

    it really is… when i was first really starting to ‘get it’ on the subcomms, i would just go to the big mall and people watch…lol… you can tell a LOT about people just how they move around…lol…

    But lol on subcomms. I 100% believe in subcomms, but again, I have a blindspot in understanding what subs I may project or possess. It will take more self reflection and understanding, which is good for me.

    it’s good for ALL of us…lol…

    Quick story from 1991 or so.

    Yay!… a story!… WooHoo!…lol…

    I was walking in NYC and ran into ( almost literally ) Denzel Washington exiting a hotel. This was shortly after the release of his movie Ricochet with John Lithgow. I’d seen the movie about a week prior. This was naturally before smartphones, so again I had no way to take a selfie, smiling with Denzel…Lmfao.

    He was gracious and nice and spent a couple of minutes chatting.

    Buuutt… other than looking and sounding like Denzel, he was very different from the guy I’d seen on screen. He was just a regular guy chatting about sports and pushcart hotdogs. Hmmmm…. he wasn’t speaking memorized scripted lines, so he was ” regular “.

    and if you were cool with him (and i can’t imagine that you weren’t…lol), he probably had a nice break from OH!!! IT’S DENZEL!!! IT’S DENZEL!!!!… lol…

    The whole subcomm thing made me think back to that meeting. I was kind of taken aback by how ” un-smooth ” he seemed. Lol.

    and the better they are at acting, the bigger the disconnect is when you meet them…lol…

    Acting. Dude was projecting subs ( and still is..). Well, that walk seems genuine though… so subs can be learned and molded dependent upon the mindset.

    ya… just like learning game…lol… well, i think game is actually more like improv… lol…

    If wearing certain clothes make a guy feel a certain positive way, his subs must reflect that, right? Same with a haircut, cologne, drawers – what ever.

    yes, and the whole ‘looks matter’ discussion was about what happens (and WHY…lol) when that guy no longer HAS those certain clothes, haircut, etc…

    When I put on a nice suit, it’s not about what other people think of it. It’s about what I think of it. I’ll go out in the backyard in a suit and play catch with the kids. It’s just that I know I look good doing what ever I’m doing, lol. I’m not the clothes, I am myself in the clothes.

    that’s bc you have an internal frame of reference… lol…(ie. the shirt is cool bc *I* wear it… NOT i am cool bc i wear a cool shirt…lol…)

    When I worked with my Dad at his auto-body shop, we had these heavy weight uniforms that we wore with our names on them, and the name of the business. The shirt was stifling to me, so I cut the sleeves off of it. The pants were constricting, so I cast them aside for loose fitting jeans. When using the torch, little fireballs would land on my sneakers and burn through to my feet I replaced them with big, heavy steel toed boots. And swinging hammers and wielding pneumatic long board sanders made me sweat profusely, so I tied a bandana around my head to stop sweat from rolling into my eyes.

    hmmm, i’m sensing that you didn’t put your ‘outfit’ together TO impress girls…lol…

    Funny thing, when I’d walk to get coffee or pizza on my break, chicks would yell at me as I shuffled down the street.

    and did you ‘react’ to those yells by being embarrassed that you were dressed like you were?… lol… i’m betting not…lol…

    Fucking boots were heavy and awkward. The owner of the pizza parlor, Tony, called me The Missing Village Person. He would sing Macho Man every time I walked into his place.

    and did you get butthurted when he did this?…lol… or just laugh along (zfg) = DHV…lol…

    I was always covered in dust and rust, chemicals and paint and sweat from head to toe, but female customers would always flirt with me and make comments.

    did you have some pride in your work? (which resulted in the way you looked)…or did you give a f*k about the way you looked?… lol…

    So… idk. Is it ” a look “? I was busy working ( my Dad busted my balls at work. Think of the Tuttles on American Chopper ) and I kind of had tunnel vision, just trying to get stuff done and go home. A chick getting an estimate from me, biting her lip and making purring sounds practically did not register, lol.

    so, you weren’t ‘chasing’…lol…

    So I’m still parsing the ” looks ” thing. Looks matter, and they don’t.

    semantics aside, that’s where we started… AND ended…lol… come on in, the waters fine…lol…

    What I think is that it still boils down to the man. His mindset. Women are attracted initially to ” certain looks “, but there’s more to it. Subcomms seems about right.

    yep…lol…

    good luck!
    —————-
    @hank

    So it wasn’t just triggered by a bad night out — think people may have misunderstood that — its an ongoing thing now for going on a decade.

    do you have some kind of FUN everyday?… i’ve found that is important for me to maintain my attitude…

    No, that’s the issue. I hadn’t had issues with being suicidal from being really depressed or upset, it was triggered from ennui. Just no point in sticking around.

    i kind of figured that… that’s why i asked… i’ve been there. i was trapped in my head and my situ… and i couldn’t see a way out… BUT, if i’m honest with myself, it wasn’t exactly that i really couldn’t SEE a way, it was that any way that i did see was scary as f*k!… and it was easier to spin myself into inaction… (not saying that’s your situ…but the stuck feeling is probably the same…)

    So I don’t really have anything TO do. The things I like to do — which are mostly outdoors things or creating things (biz or art related) — I can’t do here. Environment is bad, and people around here are not even remoetely entrepreneureal, so can’t work on the projects I want to.

    if you need some specific advice on problem-solving your situ, post it up…lol…(don’t get too specific and doxx yourself…lol) it’s just another FR…

    like YaReally posted on the next OP (Man in Demand), FRs are going to have to expand into other areas of men’s RP self-improvement, if the RP is going to kick the FI’s ass…lol… somebody’s got to go first… it might as well be you…lol…

    and just like he laid out that plan for solving your game situ by sleeping in your car for a couple of nights, we can do the same thing for any other issues… lol…

    Comprimise location WAS the expanded option. I have, for all intents and purposes, 0 dollars. I cannot move out of my local area any time soon. Not until I get a better job with more hours, get benefits to help with my heath issues, and then get more work experience.

    can you get another job to get more hours/experience? what steps to take to get benefits for your health issues?… have you done that, yet?… could you start your own biz?… it’s maybe not as easy if you are not in that ‘start up’ culture/environment, but it’s still doable…(probably…)… you might have to step up as a leader in your area, bc you can’t be the ONLY guy that feels the same way you do… post a meetup, and test it out…

    good luck!

  59. can you get another job to get more hours/experience? what steps to take to get benefits for your health issues?… have you done that, yet?

    always working on that stuff behind the scenes, just don’t always bring it up in FRS

    could you start your own biz?… it’s maybe not as easy if you are not in that ‘start up’ culture/environment, but it’s still doable…

    nah, that’s for when I move. too much time and money to do, when I could put that towards working/saving to move and working on game.

    you might have to step up as a leader in your area

    can look, but like with game stuff, will take a while to fgure out

  60. @ hank

    ” And is it just me, or have the fags just burst out of the woodwork?”

    Lmfao.

    Now, now. That language mister!! They are ” gay ” and a part of the LBGT community. They just had a huge parade in NYC recently.

    For the record, IDGAF what people decide to do sexually. It is absolutely none of my business at all. I’ve had a few men friends that were gay, and multiple lesbian and bisexual chicks as friends and sometimes more.

    But lately, things seem to be getting out of hand. It makes me suspicious. I have never been a ” gay hater ” or anything, and I’m trying to keep a somewhat open mind, not wanting to be too much of ” The Old Man Out of Touch “. The CONSTANT drumming about gay this and BLT..or LGBT .. one is a sandwich right??? Anyway, the yapping about alternative lifestyles has gone into overkill imo. Too much already.

    We have reached saturation.

    I don’t know if a lot of ” gay ” people are really gay, or if, because of all of the hoopla surrounding gayness, whether it may be trendy or something. Like, people are pushing the sex envelope just because everything around them is claiming that they are special and no ill will towards them will be tolerated at all.

    Talking to a friend of mine that works in a high school cafeteria, she complained that suddenly there’s a whole bunch of gay chicks in the school, talking about it and flaunting it and making a huge deal about their supposed sexuality.

    … suspicious.

    One of my nieces came leaping out of the closet this year. Lol. So the boyfriends, that was just a phase? I thought that everyone was ” born ” that way? That’s what I keep getting told, it’s genetic or some such.

    Hmmm, nah – I call bullshit on a lot of it. There’s always been gay people. There will always be gay people. I got zero issue with that, none of my business, again. But ALL of these gay people EVERYWHERE, all the time? Fad. Trend. Social manipulation.

    Out of my dozen goddaughters, I firmly believe that at least half of them have been with women sexually. I’d never bet against it. Too many pics around of them lip-locking and tonguing with chicks. ” Oh, we were just fooling around..”. Sure, and I was born last night, but I stayed up studying.

    Girls picking bisexual or gay guys to date, then wondering what went wrong. Lol.

    It is encouraged today.

    Shake Mah Haid.

    So yeah hank, I am seeing what you are seeing. Yeah, shit is changing. No, it doesn’t bode well for our population. Yes, it means more pussy for you. Maybe even 2 at a time.

  61. @ HABD

    ” HEY! what about ME?… lol…”

    Lol, my bad. And HABD also.

    Re: The work ” outfit “, ha ha ha.. it was just better functioning and comfortable. The reaction from females just seemed odd. But now in hindsight, lol I guess I did appear to be almost wearing a character costume at the time.

    And you’re correct. My boy Tony teasing me went in one ear and out the other. It was good hearted ribbing. But, his sister liked the look too.

    And I’ve had the pleasure of meeting an assload of celebs in my lifetime. Sometimes I don’t say anything, sometimes I introduce myself – which never fails to get puzzled looks and reactions. But what is it like to have total strangers yelling and screaming your name like they really know you?

    Ok, quick story –

    Again NYC. Walking past the Plaza Hotel in a fucking deluge. Nasty, nasty thunderstorm. As I reached the entrance, 3 burly gentlemen put their arms out to stop me and Dave Mustaine(sp?) of Megadeth comes running out to an awaiting limo, and BUSTS his ass falling on the sidewalk.

    I wanted to say something but…the moment was all wrong. So I said what was in my head at the time _ ” Dave Mustaine falls gently in the rain!!!..”. He looked at me with that ” WHAT??!!??” expression, then he started laughing.

    Buuutt, meeting J Lo and whispering ” Dat Ass ” into her ear almost got me beat to a pulp by her bodyguards.

    I guess I was the only man on earth that ever commented on her ass…..not.

  62. @Blaximus

    “It is encouraged today.

    So yeah hank, I am seeing what you are seeing. Yeah, shit is changing. No, it doesn’t bode well for our population.”

    “It” is a lagging indicator, not a leading indicator of a society in decline. It is a non-patriarchal indicator of a a matriarchal descent into a society that has too much.

    The Bonobo Masturbation society

    http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2012/07/everyone-a-harlot/

    Bonobos live luxuriously, with access to as much food as they need. Female coalitions check male aggression, and males rarely form tight-knit groups. Males don’t know who their fathers are, only their mothers. Sex is, as a bar whore once said to a pal of mine, “like shaking hands.” Homosexuality is commonplace because sex is a social activity, and everyone has sex with everyone. It’s not about reproduction; sex is about mutual masturbation and having a good time. Sex is a major part of bonobo life. Bonobos are said to be peaceful, and while that may not be completely true, they’re definitely matrilineal and exceptionally horny.

    Chimpanzees form patriarchal hunting groups. The males stick together, and the females end up moving from group to group. Sex is a reproductive activity. Homosexuality is rare. Males dominate females and the males at the top of the male hierarchy control the group.

    America is fast becoming a “Bonobo Masturbation Society,” devoted to pleasure and organized primarily to serve the interests of females. More and more men are raised by single mothers, and males are discouraged from organizing without female supervision. Sex is social, and the majority of the hard, dangerous work that men used to do is either done by machines, idiot-proofed, or outsourced to countries where life is cheap. Women and dishonorable men micromanage male aggression with endless laws and lawsuits, and bad boys who can’t pay big lawyers are drop-kicked into a multi-billion dollar prison industry that boasts the highest incarceration rate in the world.

    In our Bonobo Masturbation Society, fucking is one of the only things men are encouraged to do that actually makes them feel like men.

    Throughout the Alt-Right, several writers have criticized “pick-up artist” culture and “game.”

    Because just about the only manly thing that most men are allowed to do is bang, I am more sympathetic. I see what many call game as a kind of gateway masculinity. Game is essentially assertiveness training for a generation of young men who spent most of their lives playing “mother may I?”

    Manliness is like a talent. Some males are more gifted than others, but like any talent, masculinity has to be pushed and developed to amount to anything impressive. Boys who were raised by single moms or overprotective parents and put through the public school feminist brain-washing system were never tried or trained by groups of hard men. You can’t hand a hen-pecked boy a high school diploma and expect him to spit like Clint Eastwood.

    When they talk about game, men in the Manosphere are shoveling through the bullshit that the system tells boys about girls. This is work that needs to be done. If average young guys believe the official malarkey they are told about sex and relationships, they’ll be used and abused by entitled American girls for the rest of their lives. And, as they unpack feminist myths about the sexes, I’ve seen a lot of those guys start to wonder what it really means to be men. This is an important conversation. However, it almost seems like a safer route in today’s cultural climate to make chasing poon a long-term lifestyle choice. That’s where the positive mean slides toward a negative extreme.

    Andy Nowicki wrote that if men really wanted to undermine the matriarchy, they would stop fucking. He may have his own (possibly religious) reasons for saying so, but I think he has a point.

    Our feminist, globalist handlers would love nothing more than to keep young men — the most dangerous and potentially revolutionary group in any civilization – completely distracted by tang. And while it may feel like asserting dominance (in conveniently the most harmless way possible), if everything you do is designed to make you more appealing to women, you’re an eager vibrator. When your muscle is just for show, when everything you do is to make yourself more desirable, you’re playing the female role. When your worth as a man depends on how many women you can lure to your loins, you’re just a gigolo.

    And then there is this:

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/01/sexual-fluidity/

    The newest feminine social convention, sexual fluidity, simply attempts to patch one of the many the holes that’s sinking the New Woman’s ship. Feminized culture needs a reason for the masculine disappointment it’s systematically acculturated into society for the past 50 years.

  63. @YaReally

    Understand that I am not going back and forth with you to argue to win a point or win an argument. I’ve learned and grown an incredible amount by going back and forth with you and Scray. I even have in mind to enumerate what I have learned from you guys in just three short months. Understand that it is to learn and illustrate things. To say that argument was fun. I learned something. I think it is great.

    That link to Jack Donovan’s essay also contained the the following quote. If you actually take what us old guys from the old order say at face value, then it makes sense. We actually don’t have covert contracts, statements or intentions. We’re quite simple that way. I think Blaximus also resonates with this:

    “People used to have decent aspirations. They wanted to have families. They wanted to do good work. They wanted to be good citizens, good Christians, good people. Now everyone wants to be a player and a porn star. Everyone wants to be the kind of monkey that all of the other monkeys wants to rub up against.

    We call this matrilineal hump-fest “progress,” and seek our moral redemption in recycling.

    Sex may be natural, and it sure is fun, but it’s just a part of life. A society that over-emphasizes sex to the point where it seems like the only thing in life that means anything is grotesque and degraded, and for most people it delivers more emptiness than ecstasy.

    In healthy patriarchies, men push themselves to earn the respect and admiration of other men. They work to prove their strength, courage and competence to each other. Men pride themselves on their reputation for mastery of their bodies, their actions, and their environment. They want to be known for what they can do, not just how well or who they can screw. And they sure as hell don’t waste their time trying to figure out what they can do to bedazzle bimbos.

    Hell, in some places, when a man is ready to take a wife, he just picks one and kidnaps her. Men used to get married and get on with their lives. It seems like a healthier life path to me, and I’ve previewed what the other side has to offer.”

    I’m not trying to validate myself, or advocate for the old world order. I fully advise other men to enjoy the decline. When I explain how I operate, I merely want to explain my frame. Not dictate other men’s frame. If some guys would just explain their frame, then we can take what they say in context. Same as if women would just explain their frame, then we can decide. If a BPD chick would just explain her frame as “I’m crazy as fuck” but you get sex until you don’t, I think it would go a long way to allow a man to decide on whether she is worth his time, until she is not.

    If men here would just admit to their biases, then we can accept or reject them with logical thinking.

    Me personally, my frame is that I had decent aspirations. I had great resources. I never got fucked over in life. Having a family was a by-product of fucking a gorgeous woman, and being vulnerable and being comfortable with that vulnerability (vulnerability being the investment that resulted from that).

    I did great work. I was a good citizen. Still am. I have some Walter White, Breaking Bad tendencies and I love the hell out of that side of me.

    I’m old school and don’t deny the pursuit of the new school in a world of decline. Because I get to grief Acceptance very easily. Because I am a Stoic.

    If I don’t get sex as regular as I want it, I feel very, very frustrated and less than a man. But I don’t go around wanting sex as a completion in life. There is so much more that I do and accomplish.

  64. @Blaximus @Hank

    And is it just me, or have the fags just burst out of the woodwork?

    I have seen SO MANY flamers recently its ridiculous.

    guess i could always just be gay lol.

    I am in trendy areas frequently and see crossdressers, etc. quite a bit. Occasionally I get hit on by gays. That used to bother me but not anymore.

    I have never felt a need to say #nohomo in any posts.

    No, Blax, I won’t fall for that dropping-a-quarter trick a second time.

    lol

  65. Guys

    I just read a fantastic new book by Sebastian Junger which I think has a lot of relevance to the discussion here – all about male bonding, male place in society and male groups – it’s called Tribe.

    Sebastian Junger is the journalist who wrote Perfect Storm – the book that later became a George Clooney movie, but he’s also a well known war correspondent (Bosnia, Afghanistan etc).

    The new book is short – you can read it in a couple of hours, but for those who want the even quicker version (YaReally I’m looking at you), it’s an expanded version of this article he wrote for Vanity Fair magazine about the US armed forces and why rates of PTSD and mental illness for vets are at their highest rates in history – but there’s a lot more about how young men are wired to compete and “fight for the tribe” in a way women are not and how blunting that natural instinct leads to problems etc, and how a lack of focus and purpose for young men leads to greater mental illness, turning to gang warfare and all kinds of other social problems which are essentially unknown in tribes (or societies with tribe-like qualities – for e.g., only something like 10% of the US armed forces are frontline fighters, but something like 50% have claimed for PTSD and related problems..but the Israeli armed forces only have something like a 1% PTSD rate – not at all surprising in a society that is much closer to its armed forces and more features of a tribe – including a common initiation rite type experience of being in the army for all men).

    ANother example re courage. Something like 95% of bystander rescues – you know, jumping onto the subway tracks to rescue someone who has fallen – that kind of thing – are done by men. These are situations where you need to act instantly in the heat of the moment. But if you look at things which require longer term courage (hiding Jews from the Nazis in WW2 Germany – that sort of thing), then you see slightly more women than men (once you take married couples out of the statistics). Why?

    This is the article on which the book is based:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/05/ptsd-war-home-sebastian-junger

    I’ll leave you guys with one anecdote from the book (which isn’t in the article):

    Basically Junger (in his twenties, so sometime in the 80s) goes to Pamplona in Spain to participate in the running of the bulls and traditionally everyone spends the night before getting totally drunk. He’s in some no-name bar and gets talking to two extremely drunk young Spanish guys, one of whom is wearing a cheap plastic Viking helmet – like you’d wear to parties. (Junger spent part of his childhood in Europe and speaks both French and Spanish).

    Bar door opens and three large French men come in, equally drunk. They march up to Junger’s group and (in French) demand the helmet “That’s my helmet” and the biggest guy grabs it off the Spaniard’s head and then suddenly all five of them have grabbed it and a tug of war ensues – no punches thrown yet but it’s heading that way and emotions are running high. Note that Junger is the only guy there who speaks both languages. They are struggling so hard that the cheap plastic helmet starts to tear, when one of the Spanish guys has an idea.

    He tells (gestures) to everyone to stop for a second since they are breaking the helmet itself and then he asks Junger to step into his place and hold the helmet in his place and “defend it with his life”. Junger steps in a bit reluctantly and the Spaniard goes to the bar and buys a large jug of red wine, which he brings back and pours into the helmet (by this point the entire bar is watching).

    Spaniard then tells the biggest French guy “You are a guest in our country – you should drink first” (Spanish and French have some similarities so he was probably able to get the gist across). French guy drinks the wine and then they pass the helmet round the circle peacefully. By the time the second jug of wine arrives, they’re no longer drinking from the helmet. Half an hour later, all five guys are dancing in a line together and singing songs in their respective languages – the helmet is forgotten under a table.

    The reason I tell this story is that there’s a fantastic line in the book after he tells it, which really resonated with me, something like (from memory): “the line between male violence and male closeness is very thin..the emotions are very similar” – he writes it better, but it’s something to that effect. Another story in the book where he asks an Afghanistan vet whether he would rather have a close friend or an enemy and the guy says he has plenty of friends so he would want an enemy – but then again, he’s fought with all his closest friends – proper violent fights..

    The second reason is that the whole episode reminded me of YaReally and scray etc talking about defusing violence in nightclubs using people skills and this sounds like the kind of thing they’d do, but I can’t quite break it down in terms of PUA concepts..

  66. @Culum Struan

    Wow. Great book. I just read half of it.

    @I hope @The Man doesn’t read it. He might start justifying egalitarianism once again. The type of egalitarianism that does exist in small tribes, but does not exist in large formed societies. Tribalism is a way to regain mans humanity.

    A further reason for a bottoms-up approach to one man’s self improvement and also the manosphere’s cause collectively.

    A couple excerpts that modern society, including our own current declining society isolates individual persons rather than unites them in a common cause, and this is contradictory to how the human psyche evolved over 100K’s of years. We were meant and evolved to be tribal. In a small tribe rather than a large social structure it actually made all the sense in the world to be egalitarian. It makes no sense in a large society.

    A few excerpts:

    The findings are in keeping with something called self-determination theory, which holds that human beings need three basic things in order to be content: they need to feel competent at what they do; they need to feel authentic in their lives; and they need to feel connected to others. These values are considered “intrinsic” to human happiness and far outweigh “extrinsic” values such as beauty, money, and status.
    ———

    “In every upheaval we rediscover humanity and regain freedoms,” one sociologist wrote about England’s reaction to the war. “We relearn some old truths about the connection between happiness, unselfishness, and the simplification of living.”
    ———–
    What catastrophes seem to do—sometimes in the span of a few minutes—is turn back the clock on ten thousand years of social evolution. Self-interest gets subsumed into group interest because there is no survival outside group survival, and that creates a social bond that many people sorely miss.
    ———–
    “Whatever I say about war, I still hate it,” one survivor (ed. Of the Bosnian/ Serbian war), Nidžara Ahmetašević, made sure to tell me after I’d interviewed her about the nostalgia of her generation. “I do miss something from the war. But I also believe that the world we are living in—and the peace that we have—is very fucked up if somebody is missing war. And many people do.”

    “I missed being that close to people, I missed being loved in that way,” she told me. “In Bosnia—as it is now—we don’t trust each other anymore; we became really bad people. We didn’t learn the lesson of the war, which is how important it is to share everything you have with human beings close to you. The best way to explain it is that the war makes you an animal. We were animals. It’s insane—but that’s the basic human instinct, to help another human being who is sitting or standing or lying close to you.”

    I asked Ahmetašević if people had ultimately been happier during the war.
    “We were the happiest,” Ahmetašević said. Then she added: “And we laughed more.”

  67. “A couple excerpts that modern society, including our own current declining society isolates individual persons rather than unites them in a common cause”

    I think this is why post apocalyptic tv shows like The Walking Dead are so popular. Our current society has drifted so far from our basic nature and people are just tired of pretending to be what they’re not.

  68. this thread is interesting in advance of Rollo writing about “great experiences”

    https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/4qppet/shallitinders_advice_for_all_guys_in_their_20s/

    In a comment there:

    “The 30s are no place to build a career from scratch.”
    As a mid 30s guy building his career the last couple of years, I’m echoing this sentiment.
    I discovered PUA when I was about 22 and let the pursuit of women completely take over my life for about the next 6-7 years. It ate up a majority of my 20s. Next thing I knew, I was 31 and working at a job that paid 1 dollar an hour more than what I was doing at 21. Disregarding the building of income potential during my 20s is literally my only big regret in life.

    okay, knock off the pussy chasing, but another comment:

    I’m 28 and I just can’t get fucking laid. I need a mentor in real life. I’ve added so many valuable assets into my life, but I just don’t think I’m getting anywhere. I hang out with alphas more, hard dumped any BP friends, and I’m surrounded by women. What the fuck am I missing?

    clearly missing game, dude needs to read the complete YaReally archive (okay that would take years)

    so he’s given this advice:

    The biggest factor that a lot of guys overlook is the most obvious: physical appearance.
    Is your physique fat or scrawny? Get to the gym and devote as long as it takes to get to around 10-13% BF with a good amount of muscle.
    Are your clothes stylish/do they fit well? If not, look into buying some good looking clothes.
    How does your hair/facial hair look? How are your teeth/general aesthetics? If you look unkempt, no girl is going to want to fuck you.
    If the above three are rock solid, you’ve done 90% job– the rest just boils down to game and logistics. I guarantee your problems lie within one of those 3

    See it’s 90% looks, but another comment:

    Same here. Got laid at 17 years, now 22. Haven’t laid since.
    Got to TRP about a year ago. Started lifting again, gained 10kg of muscle and decided to make a study switch to something that actually has my interest. I’ll be living on my own probably at 24-26 which sucks. Can’t find a job in my place either.
    I go out jogging now and will take up swimming in autumn and winter. I smile at women who seem receivable. I make small talk when it’s appropriate. Just now I made some small talk with a girl in a store, but I did not ask her number.
    Also online dating, and I only managed to hit up some bitch from indonesia. Trying to get nudes, but honestly I have no idea how to go about it.
    I’m missing something too… it’s experience.

    I’m cool with red pill being descriptive but it has a fuck long way to go at being better at prescriptive

  69. I’ve got a BBQ this weekend (you know where you could acquire pussy and have fun at the same time), not a fork type event

  70. @Traveler

    “Looks don’t matter.”

    ^ What every unattractive person tells themselves.

    You look like you could stand to lose a few hundred pound, trollol.

  71. Redlight

    I’m cool with red pill being descriptive but it has a fuck long way to go at being better at prescriptive

    So towards that end… and along the theme of not wasting your 20’s…

    1. Avoid debt [yes even college loans… debt is the snare to a half lived live. Absent debt you are free to go and seek as you please. Keep that monkey off your back]

    2. Handle your game and women issues in high school [this is the time to devote to game understanding [sperg warning – NOT video games]… and work through initial sexual and relationship issues. Head into your 20’s with as much experience as you can muster].

    3. Seek experience over $$$ [better to be unpaid and learning from the best experiences and mentors/groups than to be making a “great” starting salary. Experience is capital. Relationships are capital. These things pay enormous returns. Salary… is merely cash flow.]

    4. Be dynamic. Take action! [do not sit on your ass waiting for something to happen. Make it happen. Move, call, open – ACT! Nothing will ever come to you. Run toward the battle line]

    5. Establish good health habits now [Now you have the time and energy to put into health and fitness, and it will take you a fraction of the time to get results than it will 10-15 years from now. It’s much easier to keep 20 lbs off than to take 20 lbs off].

    6. Set yourself up to have scalable earnings, vs time limited earnings [do not trade time for $$$, take less $$$ up front if you must to enjoy scalable returns… better commission only sales than $500 an hour]

    I entered college at 17, transferred around quite a bit, ultimately dropped out a few credits shy of a bachelor’s degree, bored. I had met my personal 10 by then, and then moved to live with her. Married at 23. Kid at 24. Started my first company at 25 when I had no idea what do do with my life… 7 figure net worth at 30… sold company at 35… started new company… increasing net worth. 5 kids on and married 25 years…

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/07/12/comment-of-the-week-grandparents-vs-professors/

    Above all, seek the dynamic, passionate and authentic life. [btw – Rollo, your vignette from your early 20’s – dynamic, passionate and authentic in action. Life lived supra game.]

  72. Good comment Sentient

    Your link to that Comment of the Week gave me an intro to an excerpt that that I found in the “Tribe” book by Sebastian Junger that Culum cited.

    The COTW below yours last year at Heartiste was:

    The New Heresy, twatting on Twatter, wins the COTW consolation prize.

    What does it mean to be white? To construct a civilization whose decline is marked by outgroup altruism and ingroup malice.

    The best shivs get to the point.

    The following is a stand alone thought separate from the current discussion line.

    It is in regards to military veterans coming home and adjusting to civilian life. It deserves to actually be in Rollo’s “Soldiers” essay from January 21, 2013, but it covers a different reason why soldiers have trouble adjusting to a return to regular society. It also has a thought about current politics and the election cycle and the non-cohesiveness of current top down approaches in civilization:

    Today’s veterans often come home to find that, although they’re willing to die for their country, they’re not sure how to live for it. It’s hard to know how to live for a country that regularly tears itself apart along every possible ethnic and demographic boundary. The income gap between rich and poor continues to widen, many people live in racially segregated communities, the elderly are mostly sequestered from public life, and rampage shootings happen so regularly that they only remain in the news cycle for a day or two. To make matters worse, politicians occasionally accuse rivals of deliberately trying to harm their own country—a charge so destructive to group unity that most past societies would probably have just punished it as a form of treason. It’s complete madness, and the veterans know this. In combat, soldiers all but ignore differences of race, religion, and politics within their platoon. It’s no wonder many of them get so depressed when they come home.

    I know what coming back to America from a war zone is like because I’ve done it so many times. First there is a kind of shock at the level of comfort and affluence that we enjoy, but that is followed by the dismal realization that we live in a society that is basically at war with itself. People speak with incredible contempt about—depending on their views—the rich, the poor, the educated, the foreign-born, the president, or the entire US government. It’s a level of contempt that is usually reserved for enemies in wartime, except that now it’s applied to our fellow citizens. Unlike criticism, contempt is particularly toxic because it assumes a moral superiority in the speaker. Contempt is often directed at people who have been excluded from a group or declared unworthy of its benefits. Contempt is often used by governments to provide rhetorical cover for torture or abuse. Contempt is one of four behaviors that, statistically, can predict divorce in married couples. People who speak with contempt for one another will probably not remain united for long.

    The most alarming rhetoric comes out of the dispute between liberals and conservatives, and it’s a dangerous waste of time because they’re both right. The perennial conservative concern about high taxes supporting a nonworking “underclass” has entirely legitimate roots in our evolutionary past and shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. Early hominids lived a precarious existence where freeloaders were a direct threat to survival, and so they developed an exceedingly acute sense of whether they were being taken advantage of by members of their own group. But by the same token, one of the hallmarks of early human society was the emergence of a culture of compassion that cared for the ill, the elderly, the wounded, and the unlucky. In today’s terms, that is a common liberal concern that also has to be taken into account. Those two driving forces have coexisted for hundreds of thousands of years in human society and have been duly codified in this country as a two-party political system. The eternal argument over so-called entitlement programs—and, more broadly, over liberal and conservative thought—will never be resolved because each side represents an ancient and absolutely essential component of our evolutionary past.

    So how do you unify a secure, wealthy country that has sunk into a zero-sum political game with itself? How do you make veterans feel that they are returning to a cohesive society that was worth fighting for in the first place? I put that question to Rachel Yehuda of Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. Yehuda has seen, up close, the effect of such antisocial divisions on traumatized vets. “If you want to make a society work, then you don’t keep underscoring the places where you’re different—you underscore your shared humanity,” she told me. “I’m appalled by how much people focus on differences. Why are you focusing on how different you are from one another, and not on the things that unite us?”

    The United States is so powerful that the only country capable of destroying her might be the United States herself, which means that the ultimate terrorist strategy would be to just leave the country alone. That way, America’s ugliest partisan tendencies could emerge unimpeded by the unifying effects of war. The ultimate betrayal of tribe isn’t acting competitively—that should be encouraged—but predicating your power on the excommunication of others from the group. That is exactly what politicians of both parties try to do when they spew venomous rhetoric about their rivals. That is exactly what media figures do when they go beyond criticism of their fellow citizens and openly revile them. Reviling people you share a combat outpost with is an incredibly stupid thing to do, and public figures who imagine their nation isn’t, potentially, one huge combat outpost are deluding themselves.

  73. @SJF – that’s incredibly fast work to get through the book so quickly. Are you reading on a Kindle and marking passages of interest? Because otherwise I don’t see how you’re producing excerpts so quickly..

    Also, if you’re interested Junger has done a long podcast interview with Tim Ferriss where he talks a lot more about the book and about his background as well. It’s a little repetitive if you’ve read the book, but I still enjoyed it.

  74. “You look like you could stand to lose a few hundred pound, trollol”

    If I lost a hundred pounds I would literally not exist

  75. @Culum Struan

    LOL.

    First off, yes I am fast at assimilating information and curating it in my own mind and then trying to add value to the discussions here. A long time ago in my education, I learned how to read books the old fashioned way–by just reading them, understanding as I go along and fit the information into abstract thinking. All this red pill manosphere information in the last three years has led me to actually now be able to express my mind a lot better, even if I do cheat and curate and cut and paste stuff.

    I sucked at expressing myself (by my standards) just a couple years ago, and now my thoughts just flow. I impressed myself last night by giving the neighbor boy/man (18 y.o. who’s mom died last year) at my farm a short coherent mini lecture about red pill and game and how to be an alpha male when dealing with women.

    One of the reasons that I read a lot and process a lot of manosphere books is because what is really driving me to read books is a supreme desire to pursue these topics pro-actively, rather than to have them passively handed to my brain.

    This manosphere stuff has been my redemption from frustration and given me real power. And it is a positive feed-back loop going on for me. So there is that.

    Secondly, the way I produce passages, or cut-and paste is by using an EPUB format and two computer screens. The AZW (Amazon word format) does not often allow cutting and pasting. Amazon allows you to download a file to the computer directly. Any AZW formatted book can be turned into an EPUB format with the Calibre E-Book management program. (And books can be obtained in EPUB format.)

    Thanks again for that book recommendation, as it was great. I finished it earlier today. The part about the Indian tribes was great. Those Indian tribes functioned like men and women were designed to functionally operate evolutionarily, rather than how complex societies including our Feminine-Imperative-addled society operates currently.

    @ Andy

    “A couple excerpts that modern society, including our own current declining society isolates individual persons rather than unites them in a common cause”

    “I think this is why post apocalyptic tv shows like The Walking Dead are so popular. Our current society has drifted so far from our basic nature and people are just tired of pretending to be what they’re not.”

    That dynamic was well explained by Jack Donovan in “The Way of Men”
    in the chapter called: A Check to Civilization.

    Also dealt with in how people come together in a war effort or post-apocalyptic scenario in the Sebastian Junger book. He described how men and woman actually operated like @The Man wants men and women to operate with egalitarianism. This only works on smaller tribes that have skin in the game. Another testament to the bottoms up strategy for manosphere men.

  76. Gosh.

    I’m shaking my head.

    With all this blog has to offer it becomes clearer to me every two weeks that life for a man is actually not actually as tough as we individual men make it out to be.

    Yeah, earlier in the day I read Tribes by Sebastian Younger from cover to cover. I then went and did a consult and several skin biopsies at the hospital, a good long drive from my place, as the staff consultant in my specialty. These on call days used to suck. I remember how hard that was in the old days. Now? No big deal.

    I came home and cooked up some beer battered cod (actually never did that before), while my wife made a delicious beet and feta salad plate.

    I then watched “Restrepo”, a movie by Sebastian Junger on Netflix while my wife vegged on typical TV fare in the living room.

    Watching that movie that was raw documentary (and it is very masculine non-emotional in the face of death) was odd. It was very limited narrative in what was actually accomplished in its end. And it has me shaking my head. Life is not all that hard for a man. It used to be for me. Not any more.

    I wish someone would have told me so before. It’s not that hard. Just follow the script.

  77. redlight
    July 1st, 2016 at 8:55 am

    We know why the window closes around age 30. Endocannabinoid production has been declining since age 25 or so.

    We knew this instinctively in the 60s. “Don’t trust anyone over 30.” I turned 30 in 1974. We now know the science of it. Well those who study it do. The general population is still ignorant.

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