Ghosts in the Machine

ghosts_inthe_machine

Hollenhund had an interesting response to a question posed in last week’s post that I thought I might come back to here:

1) Why is there “yourbrainonporn” for men, and not “yourbrainonyourdildocollection” for women? “yourbrainoneroticnovels” “yourbrainon50shadesofgray” “yourbrainonTwilight” “yourbrainonhavingtoomanyorbiters” “yourbrainongettingtoomanymessagesinyourinboxonokcupid”? MEN are the ones that it’s a “problem” if they want variety. MEN are the ones that have to change. MEN are the ones that have to fight their biology. hmmm…I wonder why THAT is. Maybe to help create more Softeks, where the girl can cheat on her boyfriend with him and then shame him for looking at another girl

I doubt their goal is that specific. This new narrative about porn addiction being a public health problem is obviously seen by its supporters as yet further ground for political consensus between feminists and social conservatives. It’s not that feminists want to turn the porn industry, or what remains of it, into a political target again, it’s that they need a narrative that is aligned with the Feminine Imperative and moves public discourse about the mating market away from subjects they, and women in general, are very uncomfortable with.

As long as the mainstream media pushes this narrative about young men getting addicted to online porn and thus opting out of the mating market, it will largely stifle any public discourse about the popularity of female emotional porn (romantic literature), and also the real potential causes of widespread porn use, like the drop in average female quality on the mating market and unrestrained hypergamy. Social conservatives, feminists, and the majority of common folk will, of course, be happy to put all blame on men for any social problem, real or not. And it’s very obvious that porn addiction isn’t a problem they want to actually do anything about, it’s more like an excuse for women to whine and moan. Frankly I’m very skeptical about the whole issue of porn addiction, because if something just happens to perfectly fit into the Feminine Imperative, it’s probably no accident. And one wonders how much scientific evidence there actually is for it.

I’ve addressed the physiological and social associations of male masturbation in the past in The Pheromonal Beta, as well as Pathologizing the Male Sexual Response. The “lively” discussion about male masturbation in this week’s comments notwithstanding, the topic du jour in the Twittershpere also seemed to coincide with this topic.

Personally, I think the ‘moral’ dictates about jerking off follows evolutionarily pragmatic reasons for male shame in masturbation while female masturbation is an arousal cue and seen as a positive. Female masturbation is a cue for sexual availability while male masturbation is essentially a Beta Tell.

That’s the nuts and bolts of it from the bio-evolutionary perspective, but as with all other inherently male thumbscrews, the Feminine Imperative has long exploited the sociological implications of men’s need for sex. One thing that slips by relatively unnoticed with social conventions that serve the Feminine Imperative is that the same presumptions that would serve a masculine (in this case sexual) imperative are always shamed or stereotyped – that is until they come into a context that is  useful to the feminine.

Sex Sells What?

“Sex sells” is a cliché that can be used in the positive for women, but it is always a negative for men. For women, sold sex in advertising, romantic literature, the meteoric popularity of ‘divorce porn’ for married  women, or really any media that stimulates women’s sexual interests is always seen as positive, empowering and exceptional. Even if what their being sold is seedy or can have a potentially negative consequence, in a feminine-primary social order women ‘own’ sex from today’s social perspective. In other words, society at large is expected to defer to women on issues of sex and, by association, romance, love, etc.

Women can still be sold  something or induced to buy a product or to adopt a mindset, but that article or the message that’s meant to be internalized is associated with the ‘positive’ of a sexual inference with women.

For men, male sexuality is always a negative association unless that sexuality is expressed in a way that complements women’s sexual strategy. Something being sold via sex to men is either seen as preying upon an inherent weakness (or dependency) for sex or it’s paired with ridicule for men being typical ‘pigs’ and they’re unable to dissociate sex from the objectification of women. So ingrained is this shame-association that men have adapted sexual competition strategies around it in order to identify better with women in the hopes they will be perceived as “not like other, typical, sex hungry men” and that their intimate interests are motivated by something more ephemeral that sex.

The social utility of this shame-association, of course, parallels the utility of Male Catch 22 for the Feminine Imperative, but there’s a useful  duplicity for women in this inescapable shame of male sexuality. For instance, when women seek to convince both themselves and men that fat-acceptance and “changing the standards of beauty” should be men’s metric for wanting to fuck and pair with less desirable women, we see the usefulness of that duplicity. Men are useful in the perception that they’re sexually uncontrollable pigs for being so gullible as to allow “society” and advertising agency to define what they think is arousing.  However, the Feminine Imperative will readily use (or attempt to use) that same weakness  to exploit men into acting against their own, evolved, sexual best interests by selling them the ideal of accepting fat women as a new standard of beauty.

There are no feminine parallels for the pathologizing of the female sex response because those would simply be hindrances to women optimizing their Hypergamous imperatives. Why are there no “yourbrainonporn” sites for women? Why are there no XXXChurch equivalents for the ladies? Why are there no support groups for women ‘addicted’ to romance novels or divorce porn movies? Because that exclusively male pathologizing is only beneficial to the female sexual strategy.

This is the depth of control that the female-primary imperative seeks over men – that our most base biological, existential need should be distorted and psychologically molded by shame to the point of instilling lifelong neurosis and conditioning fear-based gender self-loathing to effect women’s sexual strategy above all other considerations.

I’ll quote the Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies once more here: for one sex’s strategy to succeed the other’s must either be compromised or abandoned. Whether subtly instilled or publicly shame-conditioned, associating men’s sexuality with sickness or perversion, weakness, and disability, the underlying purpose is an effort in convincing men to abandon any claim to their own sexual imperative in favor of that of women’s.

Slut Shaming

If this seems like a sea change from the old order days when women were shamed for even the hint of promiscuity while men were lauded for their own sexual exploits, what you’re seeing is the societal shift to feminine social primacy. There was a time when sexual indiscretion was something that shamed women. Today, it’s almost laughable that there should be a need for a social convention like “slut shaming”. There is no such social referencing, but if men on whole can be put to shame for the belief that other men might still cling to older order reservations about women’s sexual exploits it serves to place women’s sexual strategy above that of men’s.

There is always the old standby – the horrible “double standard” about men banging a lot of women being heroes while women who bang a lot of men are sluts (“it sooooo unfair!”). This is a laughable, antique social convention in an era of slut walks and female-centric birth control, but it’s still the reflexive go-to trope when the mechanics of pathologizing men’s sexuality comes to light.

Sex-positive feminism has always been a two-edged sword for women. That positivity ‘fempowers’ women so long as they cling to the old order missives about the Patriarchy repressing that sexuality while it simultaneously disqualifies their complaints of it as Hypergamy becomes more and more openly embraced.

Ghosts in the Machine

Hollenhund continues for us:

YaReally and hoellenhund, you’re talking about all this VR porn stuff but isn’t this basically the same dynamic as prostitution? Same kind of alternative sexual relief (that is not your wife) and same reason why the FI shames prostitutes and men who use prostitutes etc..because they lower the “price” of sexual release..?

YeReally has already answered your question well, I’d say. He brought VR porn up, I didn’t, because I was observing the current situation, not something that only exists today as a potential future development.

I’d add that the dynamic is somewhat different. Apparently the state is willing to penalize prostitution, at least to a degree that makes it sufficiently risky and expensive for many men to avoid it, and the majority of women and their male bootlickers are willing to support political efforts to suppress it. Neither of that applies to pornography of any sort. Women will complain about it, they will support a narrative that portrays it specifically as a problem caused by men, but it’s not like anyone actually wants to make an effort to do something about it. Do you think any woman wants to date, or have sex with, a reformed porn addict? Do you think women want porn addicts to get out of the basement, get their shit together, and hit on women in order to get real-life sex?

For the record, I’m not going to deny that excessive masturbation is unhealthy, or that excessive porn use can elicit unrealistic expectations of sex in a mind of an inexperienced man. Anything should be done in moderation, that goes without saying. But the current public discourse on porn and its effects is complete BS.

I’ve forgotten where I saw the quote posted, so I’ll paraphrase it a bit (I think it may have been Illimitable Man), but there’s a new concept I read about how human beings’ experience of consciousness is now assuming a new, third, aspect – the immediate, the internal and now, the virtual.

The immediate experience is one in which you directly relate with people in real time. It’s you physically and vocally interacting with others. The internal is the conversations you have with yourself and both your conscious and subconscious interpretation of what you’re experiencing, learning, behaving, etc. (i.e. what you’re thinking).

However, the virtual (or digital) aspect of consciousness is something humans have only recently developed and are now on the cutting edge of really understanding. The virtual experience is what I’m doing now as I type this post. I’m relating to you what’s going on in my thought process (to the degree of which I’m aware of it) in a virtual medium. Virtual porn, virtual games, virtual shopping, etc., really anything you do in a digital realm is part of this new form of ‘being’.

Humans in 2016 experience things in ways that our forebearers could scarcely dream of. Our immediate and internal experiences are now being informed by out virtual experiences – in accelerated ways that I don’t think most people really appreciate. The Feminine Imperative is now fighting to establish a foothold in this virtual experience. Thus, we see efforts like GamerGate meant to lock down a control over how men will be allowed to experience this virtual reality. We also see the preliminary efforts to both socially and legislatively institute feminine-primary controls over yet to be developed possibilities of virtual experiences.

Jerking off to ubiquitous, free, online porn is one such experience that the Feminine Imperative has had to play catch-up to with regard to restricting men’s access to it. And thus, we get contingent social controls from the imperative to counter this lack. It’s not enough that men be shamed for their sexual response to online porn. The accessibility makes this impractical, but there’s really no ‘sales’ transaction for which men would feel their sexual “weakness” being exploited.

However, the counter to this then becomes making men’s sexuality itself a disease. “Porn Addiction”, sex addiction, in a religious context even ‘impure thoughts’ become a disease not to be cured, but to be managed by women – women’s definitions, women’s approvals and disapprovals, women’s sexual strategy interests.

And porn is just the tip of the iceberg with regard to the Feminine Imperative’s controls of men’s virtual experiences with women.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“What is the purpose of this site for you?”

Primarily, If I’m honest with myself, it’s because I tasted abundance and I’ve been obsessed with getting it back. For all I know it could get way better than even what I had… So many other reasons too. Like minded guys, laughs, learning new things… My life has improved quite a bit since finding this place. Hard not to get addicted.

Ajax Parallax
Ajax Parallax
6 years ago

Since the topic of the merits of a “one woman” (marriage, commonlaws) LTR vs. the camp of “fill your crib with dozens of young Asian asses” PLTR has come up in this Ghost in the Machine thread, I am posting this because the following story appeared this AM on The Today Show. The funny thing is I would have given this scant notice before my recent unplugging. But, apparently, the media powers that be heard the alarm bells going off and pushed this to the very top of the “important NBC morning news” rotation. today I’m sure Dalrock is all… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

Kirk shoulda kept his opines to himself.

Or posted them here.

Ajax Parallax
Ajax Parallax
6 years ago

Exactly. Unfortunately, that would mean he would first have to unhook from his blue pill five-liter IV.
(Based on his Disney comments about raising his daughter to not kiss until marriage.)

Man, I don’t think even Vegas can build a carousel that’s going to be that colossal when she hits 18-29).

Blaximus
6 years ago

http://www.lvms.com/images/most-interesting-man-in-the-world-lg.jpg

I don’t always watch porn online…

But when I do, it’s amateur stuff.

lmao.

Virtual porn, huh? I’ll have to visualize and think on that some more.

As Ya would agree, I’m old, so I will probably go graveside before experiencing these things.

As far as chicks ” owning ” sex, I am not a huge fan of this, but it has become a reality.

more thoughts to come…

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Kirk shoulda kept his opines to himself.”

That horse bolted the barn decades ago.

Matt
Matt
6 years ago

Yes, and to top it off, we have a non-profit led by an old hag ethics professor, about the societal wide issue sex robots would have on the mating market. Specifically, she hates how it would cause men to objectify women. She’s just mad that no man found her phd attractive to make up for her sorry genetics lot. Too bad no one told her that basic attractiveness is actually in her control. The bar has dropped so low now that any women who does not have a deformed face, can look attractive to 80% of men by staying thin,… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

Thing is, in my life, the only time I see or hear SJW’s or have like that Prof is on TV ( controllable ) or online ( controllable ). It is clear that masses of people are lining up to become sheeple and joiners and followers, and I’d LOVE to hear you guy’s thoughts on where you think all of this Digital Lifestyle will ultimately end up. O/T At one point after my divorce, I spun 4 plates. 2 strippers and 2 regular broads. The stripper thing was unwise ( I worked at a strip club ) but fairly easy.… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

Pardon the disjointedness….tablet jockeying.

Culum Struan
Culum Struan
6 years ago

One thing I’ve noticed about porn..not sure how recent it is: like recently I saw some amateur clip of some average looking middle-aged housewife banging two Chad T’Cock types in their twenties with six packs, while her husband filmed it. This is just some amateur stuff (ie, not some niche “femdom” stuff or anything) What struck me is how passive the guys were. Like it’s not just that she was the center of attention – it’s that she was in charge and driving the whole process – she was using them for her pleasure and not the other way around.… Read more »

Bachelorocles
Bachelorocles
6 years ago

@Ajax Parallax

Of course Cameron’s comments will rile the hive, the queens and their royal courts. The US is the heart of the Gynocracy.

Listen to the men in the audience giggle. In an older comment a guys writes enthusiastically, “I’m going to play this at my wedding.”

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

Classic @Shiva straw man nonsense. “1. In-essense you proclaim, the house always wins but still the gamblers gotta be the dancing monkey and keep playing.” Did I say the house always wins? What on earth are you talking about? Women drive sexual selection – this is just a basic fact of how human intersexual dynamics work. It is innately “unfair” (doesn’t occur to me that way anymore at all but this is the essence of MGTOW complaints) as men are bio-programmed to want sex from women, and to want it much more intensely and regularly. This power imbalance has been… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“Thing is, in my life, the only time I see or hear SJW’s or have like that Prof is on TV ( controllable ) or online ( controllable ).” @Blax You’re lucky (or old ;-)). I dated a couple chicks in college while they were taking women’s studies classes… Jesus, it was a semester in hell both times. I contemplated signing up for a class so I could defend my gender. And this was 15 years ago. Looks like it has gotten much worse. Most girls have taken at least one women’s studies course from my experience. Hoff Sommers says… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Andy I’m lucky and old. The last time I noticed chicks like this was while watching a scrum the broke out at a Trump rally in Chicago. Crazed young chicks yelling and screaming and pushing and shoving…. And also laughing like it was all a huge joke. Something to do. I don’t have personal experience with girls like that. Off the top of my head, I’d guess that I interact with 20-25 chicks between 19-30 on a regular basis and none of them are anything like these crazy broads. I almost think that this is some form of ”… Read more »

Johnycomelately
Johnycomelately
6 years ago

Lucien nailed it. Porn IS soma, it is the perfect FI opiate, it calms and sedates while inculcating desire and normalising Hyperagamy. The pretence to moral indignation is simply moral status preening, one can’t be sex positive while pretending to be affronted by its digital evidence. I wouldn’t be surprised if Soros types bankroll loss making porn ventures much like they do with the MSN. Porn is inherently observer based, in other words it isn’t interactive and as such it can’t serve as a substitute, it simply compounds desire. Much like how fashion magazines or celebrity tv shows instil status… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Johnny and Lucien – Ya, inspiring. I haven’t been able to lift since January due to a bicep injury (grrrrrrrrr) but am heading to the gym tonight for the first lift in a while. I did a no-fapping/no porn thing for a while but i didn’t stick with it, but it was very good for my energy. May have to fap every once in a while but decreasing it was very good for my energy and ambition and aggression. I also agree that getting what we want via porn enables the FI and is a way of controlling male sexual… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

Re: Women driving sexual selection. It is true but it only serves to inform. It is not an impediment. Too many details actually cause confusion when constantly in the forefront of thought. Even though chicks drive selection, the process can always be tilted in a man’s favor. Lol in essence that fact that they drive selection only serves men’s agendas. That drive will also make them chase. That drive will also make them submit. That drive will make them prepare tasty post sex sandwiches. If anything about women appeared daunting, it is all in your mind. They have amazing advance… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@scribblerg “Sure, women are competing too, but the skew of selection criteria and how women all overshoot results from the power imbalance i’m pointing at.” in the modern developed world, sure. or a strong case for post-agricultural society generally can be made. but as a matter of ‘HARD BIOLOGY DARWIN’ there really isn’t a lot of evidence for it. you pick a physical or behavioral trait possessed by men and I will show you a wide swath of variation. even height varies by nearly a foot within the middle 98%. if women are so choosy and so hardcore about being… Read more »

walawala
walawala
6 years ago

Talking about porn with women is a battle for f some control. When a girl I’ve banged texts to tell me all the nasty things she wants to do…I amp up the intensity telling her how I’m going to fuck her brains out… I stop right at the point where she brings out the “you’ve been watching too much porn” shit test. “Not porn…erotica” is my response. It’s the perfect shit test deflection and reframe. This girl had no reply to that. On a separate note…have soft Nexted a girl I banged who was blowing up my phone then suddenly… Read more »

ludiam0ndz
ludiam0ndz
6 years ago

@SJF that excerpt on female manipulation was scary accurate. I got chills reading that shit as it essentially mirrored the progress of my relationship with my ex. Over a ten year period I was subject to almost exactly the same gradual process, I’d like to think I fought valiantly, but in the end I was a hollowed out shell of my former self. AWALT, that’s kinda one of the standard manosphere tropes, but if this is how women are, I’m really petrified to embark another LTR without some serious countermeasures. I’m also kinda saddened by the realization that if i… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“and since all the evo-psych (and TRPers) have yet to produce any hard genetic evidence of an ability to ‘detect good genes’ or ‘objective’ attractiveness or the ‘objective in all environments’ alpha male…why hold to it?”

@scray

Seems like they’re attracted to social status… do you think that’s social programming too? I’m skeptical, because I watch kids that have no problem running around naked playing with themselves in public completely unstifled; when they get together and interact there’s always a hierarchy…

scray
scray
6 years ago

@andy “Seems like they’re attracted to social status… do you think that’s social programming too?” short answer lol yes. long answer — ‘social status’ doesn’t have any content. status just means relative to everyone else you’re higher up in the hierarchy. you LEARN hierarchies. and it’s just PART of the impulse to LEARN how to thrive — ‘who should i stick with, who’s the best to align with HERE?’ so i mean, this desire to LEARN who to BEST thrive may be innate and from that springs a desire to learn ‘WHO are USEFUL allies in THIS environment?’ (along with… Read more »

TheOldOligarch
TheOldOligarch
6 years ago

Scribblerg, I think you need to let go of the belief that you owning a business defines you. I think your sense of despair comes from drawing value for your ego from it. I’m unemployed and haven’t had a serious job for years(fuck you online poker and your easy prior rewards) and while I feel bad when I think of how it upsets my parents, in the end, it doesn’t really matter. It sucks, I’m in a hole of sorts too on multiple fronts due to not planning my transition to adulthood properly(it’s hard when you make what your friends… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“social status is conferred by different traits in different places.”

Makes sense. I think most people here would agree with that. Alright, I’ve exceeded my daily dose of mental masturbation.

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Scray if women are so choosy and so hardcore about being sexually selective with ‘alphas,’ why does this huge amount of variation exist?

Women prefer alpha but will settle for beta vs not reproducing. The preference for alpha however never diminishes, and is the root of hypergamy…

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

scray but you know if he’s just a fish out of water surrounded by 7 Chad T Ivy league financial banker dudes…forget it — unless he’s a supreme master of calibration and can demonstrate the same attributes of value with diff traits (ex: naked aggression switched out with wit, etc.) Actually I would argue the opposite. Contrast nearly always substitutes for Alpha, women seek out group diversity when they can get it. That gangbanger would do well (assuming he has frame, i.e. not cowed/intimidated by being in the outgroup) as would the Chad T’Cock if the situation was reversed… Try… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

contrast is also the underlying mechanism in peacocking for example…

TheOldOligarch
TheOldOligarch
6 years ago

Yareally, my fake tinder account was blasted with that kind of garbage too. Lol. I feel my dick withdrawing back into my body when I see game that bad.

scray
scray
6 years ago

@sentient “Women prefer alpha but will settle for beta vs not reproducing. The preference for alpha however never diminishes, and is the root of hypergamy…” first, if you’re defending some sort of ‘objective biological alpha’ idea, then this relies on ‘alphas’ not being willing to even have NSA sex with the women — all they need is the sperm. second if you’re just reasserting that women dig social status, ya sure, women -prefer- the top dog as perceived by her. but if what makes the top dog top dog changes between cultures and over time, then the only thing innate… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@sentient “That gangbanger would do well (assuming he has frame, i.e. not cowed/intimidated by being in the outgroup) as would the Chad T’Cock if the situation was reversed…” he wouldn’t do well because he’s so far outside of their reality and he LIKELY DOES NOT HAVE THE MEANS to bring them INTO HIS reality (calibration). he probably doesn’t score high on many, if any, of the traits that confer social status in the other group….. …which will make it easy for the Chads to pretty much ignore him…. ….which will make it easy for the chicks to ignore him…. the… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

“only social norms about ‘what is good’ and phenotypes that more or less closely match them.” These become social norms because they are net positive to health and reproduction. which makes hypergamy much less of an issue…since most every guy, given the right set of circumstances and attitudes, could fuck most every girl. there’s nothing -innate- about -what traits- she views as alpha; that’s the point. this is why PUAs talk about pulling her into YOUR world, after all. This is just describing the act of hypergamy… as she is pulled into yet another not YOU world by another… Hypergamy… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@sentient “contrast is also the underlying mechanism in peacocking for example…” lol and if you are uncalibrated, peacocking will FUCK YOU UP passing shit tests (which peacocking invites) is essential, and passing shit tests is essentially demonstrating mastery over your particular social environment this is why COOL AF PEOPLE can wear whatever the fuck they want to any club or whatever and dont need lines etc…. …they have MASTERED the scene and its rules and can play the game with one hand tied behind their back they know exactly how to play the bouncer, the strippers, etc. at THAT club… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

he wouldn’t do well because he’s so far outside of their reality and he LIKELY DOES NOT HAVE THE MEANS to bring them INTO HIS reality (calibration). This may require KFG’s input on agency yet again… he probably doesn’t score high on many, if any, of the traits that confer social status in the other group Exactly. She has those genes at her disposal after all. …which will make it easy for the Chads to pretty much ignore him…. Ignore I’d say no. Strangers always show on your radar. Underestimate, yes I’d agree with that. are you using “calibration” in… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“are you using “calibration” in lieu of game?”

Picking the right type and weight of hammer for a particular job is not done in lieu of using a hammer.

scray
scray
6 years ago

@sentient “These become social norms because they are net positive to health and reproduction.” most of the population was malnourished and shorter for most of post-agricultural society, so….. it can literally be a group of people invents a story to tell everyone and that story benefits one group of people over everyone else, and everyone else just follows the story because they’ve been told the story all their lives. maybe there’s some floor about what kind of suffering people will tolerate and that applies to these social norms, but don’t think there’s anything suggesting that the social norms maximize health… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Here’s where we will disagree… passing shit tests is essentially demonstrating mastery over your particular social environment I would change this to demonstrating mastery over oneself as THE key to success… everything else flows from that. PUA is in learning the lay of whatever land you are in RIGHT NOW. Mastering oneself precludes needing to know the lay of a particular land… So when faced with this situation this is why COOL AF PEOPLE can wear whatever the fuck they want to any club or whatever and dont need lines etc…. It ends up looking like this hey have MASTERED… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Scray

““Hypergamy is still very much the issue.”
it’s not in the sense of ‘a lot of guys just won’t ever be able to satisfy a woman’s hypergamy.’ i don’t know what sense you mean, though.”

I mean hypergamy is THE itch that is always going to look to be scratched.

YaReally
6 years ago

@scray @scribblerg “and since all the evo-psych (and TRPers) have yet to produce any hard genetic evidence of an ability to ‘detect good genes’ or ‘objective’ attractiveness or the ‘objective in all environments’ alpha male…why hold to it?” ugh, this all comes down to their gay Chad Thundercock shit, because the TRPers are still locked into the looks and money thing, so they build all this bullshit around an inaccurate premise that every girl always wants the objective-in-any-environment highest Chad Thundercock which, to believe that you have to ignore literally every infield vid where a scrawny average looking PUA has… Read more »

sfer
sfer
6 years ago

Watching porn without masturbating before going out is excellent especially for older dudes or dudes who are not very sexual.

Blaximus
6 years ago

” this is why a gangbanging non-white non-college educated thug probably isn’t going to do that well with some ivy league upper middle class white chick — UNLESS he PULLS HER INTO HIS WORLD. ”

Lol. Believe it of Nah, they do better than many people would believe.

TheOldOligarch
TheOldOligarch
6 years ago

Yareally, I think most men just hamsferize their failures instead of viewing assets like wealth, height, muscles as force multipliers to game. Without game and putting yourself out there, you won’t get laid unless you’re famous, dumpster diving or paying. But height, muscles etc are attractive independent of game, it’s just that if your game is crap, you being awesome in those ways will piss off women even more. Like if you’re rich and have no frame(lol, I try to imagine having a hundred million and ever giving a shit about what anyone thinks ever again ), you’re even more… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@blax

“Lol. Believe it of Nah, they do better than many people would believe.”

yeah when they PULL those chicks into their world, sure.

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

Funny how here – of all places – there is disagreement that the fundamental nature of human intersexual dynamics is that women choose and men compete for that choice. From a guy like @Scray who’s dedicated years pf his life and thousands of hours to competing effectively, lol. Really, I’m not going to engage in batting away the tedious word parsing and arch over-analysis of my comments. The entire need for “game” arises from this basic truth and if you miss that, well that’s on you. Of course it’s more complex than that but this is the starting point for… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
6 years ago

@Ya – My comments are about “Chad Thundercock” and looks? Go read what I actually wrote, nothing of the sort going on there. You guys have lost your minds over this. Consider that your entire effort at gaming has been to best manipulate female sexual selection in your favor. You are a smart guy but to miss this is ridiculous. It’s making me laugh though, and hey, I needed a good laugh today.

PUAs claiming that women don’t drive sexual selection, LMFAO. Really, it’s too rich.

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

scribblerg

I think part of the issue is leaving out the word “most”

“the fundamental nature of human intersexual dynamics is that MOST women choose and MOST men compete for that choice.”

Just
Just
6 years ago

My experience with online porn addiction When I see the discussion above about addiction to porn, I can’t help but remember my journey. I’m 27yo, and started masturbating at 13. Found my dad’s playboys. Few months later and I found myself masturbating daily, with playboys and/or imagination. Notice this was in 2004, where internet video streaming didn’t really existed yet. Even with daily use, I still wouldn’t classify the above as addiction, but when I found out about video streaming porn, things escalated a lot. I don’t really remember my habits during this time, but at some point I found… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@scribblerg “there is disagreement that the fundamental nature of human intersexual dynamics is that women choose and men compete for that choice” but when the ratio favors males, women behave like men…. ” The entire need for “game” arises from this basic truth and if you miss that, well that’s on you” except it isn’t really a basic truth. Bateman’s principle isn’t really proven, even though it’s widely accepted. male RS definitely does not universally vary more than female RS across all human populations tho….even tho it generally does (but not much greater in many cases to the level of… Read more »

Mike
Mike
6 years ago

But Rollo – I get that pathologising ‘porn addiction’ serves the feminine imperative, but what about men who, for religious reasons, or for practical purposes of time and energy management, just don’t pursue pussy that hotly? If men are dependent upon sex, doesn’t this empower women much more? As a beta man in his late twenties (and therefore edging towards age-contextual Alphaness), I look at my female contemporaries who are hitting the wall and turning to me as a second option and it seems that, if I were as used to getting laid or as dependent upon porn as a… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@scribblerg “PUAs claiming that women don’t drive sexual selection, LMFAO. Really, it’s too rich.” eh, not really. it just seems like sexual selection — if there’s any innate bio component — is at the level of sperm and maybe the penis. and that’s it. and it’s not so much that women can ‘detect’ good sperm…it’s just that men who have good sperm reproduce more, which would make sense if human females weren’t picky about having sex, which would make sense if humans evolved to work together in communities and sex reinforced those bonds. seems just as valid as the other… Read more »

YaReally
6 years ago

@Blaximus @scray “yeah when they PULL those chicks into their world, sure.” lol was about to literally write exactly that. The ones who have shitty frames and give off shitty subcomms because they’re uncomfortable in that environment eat shit. The ones who have strong frames and don’t let social pressure affect them and don’t give other people higher value than themselves, do well. Doesn’t matter what the environment is or what type of person we’re talking about. @scribblerg “the fundamental nature of human intersexual dynamics is that women choose and men compete for that choice” Attraction is not a choice,… Read more »

Vektor
Vektor
6 years ago

“MPORGs are a rudimentary example of the virtual experience I’m getting at here. On a root level the FI understands the threat VR represents to its ‘real’ life control over men’s sexual response. Thus, the logical solution to maintain that control is to either shame men for opting for the ‘fantasy’ or to insert those controls into the fantasy that men are opting for, or preferably both” Men take the red pill and ‘unplug’ from the metaphorical FI-centric ‘Matrix’. A subset of these men choose to ‘plug in’ to a literal ‘Matrix’ that suits their desires and perspectives. Morpheus: “Fate,… Read more »

sfer
sfer
6 years ago

If men were not choosy then there would be no reason for evolution to favor attractive women.

There are definitely plenty of women I would not have sex with. Men are generally not particularly choosy above a certain floor of attractiveness.

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

YaReally on attraction: It’s not about an objective best alpha male Chad Thundercock overall in the entire world, it’s about IN THAT EXACT MOMENT IN TIME, of the men that her brain feels are realistically available to her, who’s the highest value relative to the other men that are available to her. IOW – “Women love opportunistically” – Rollo Tomassi That’s why provider game worked just fine until women got their own degrees and their own jobs. Someone oughta do a time-series comparison on “% of women in workforce” and “divorces per year”. But that’s not attraction. That’s provisioning. That’s… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Mike, look at it this way: why isn’t there a “your-brain-on-shopping-at-the-mall-for-hours-and-buying-some-useless-trinket”?

Dopamine hit is a dopamine hit is a dopamine hit.
Except that some dopamine hits are more socially acceptable than others; the “shopping’ dopamine hit has become a major prop under the economy…

ludiam0ndz
ludiam0ndz
6 years ago

lmao @ trigglypuff, thats some funny shit. A lot of the fat chicks anxiety prolly stems from a poor diet. She looks stressed as fuck.

I tried to watch the original video but couldn’t make head/tail of the discussion, not sure what got her fat ass so riled up. Chill bish before you have a stroke..

having a bad day
having a bad day
6 years ago

@YaReally scray Sentient… It has nothing to do with sniffing out amazing genes. The whole basis of Mystery Method is learning to efficiently demonstrate higher-value (REAL value) elevating yourself just slightly higher than every other guy in the room so that you become the guy triggering Hypergamy with the emotional impact you’re creating for the girls. That’s why we can take a Tyler or a Todd and hand him game and he can get hot girls chasing him down. We didn’t upgrade his genes or anything, we just showed him how to hit that “I’m the highest value guy you… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

trigglypuff
A lot of the fat chicks anxiety prolly stems from a poor diet.

Yeah, self-medication takes a lot of different forms. Probably if cane sugar was discovered now it would be considered a drug. But it works both ways.

Crappy diet may be driving a lot of that fat chicks anxiety.

Either way, I wouldn’t want get between her and a bag of Doritos.

ludiam0ndz
ludiam0ndz
6 years ago

@Scray @Ya @Scribblerg Curious as to what specifically are you three are arguing for/against.. to me you’re all saying the same thing, sort off as far as I can tell, just from different angle. Scribble: Women choose, and PUA’s learn how to influence that choice. Scray: PUA is realizing the women have no choice (if you know how to bend shit your way which most don’t.) Ya: Emotional impact trumps all, and value is contextual + what Scray sez. I think the issue is Scrays coming from the perspective of having understood what it takes to.. take the choice away… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

YaReally says – ” It has nothing to do with sniffing out amazing genes. The whole basis of Mystery Method is learning to efficiently demonstrate higher-value (REAL value) elevating yourself just slightly higher than every other guy in the room so that you become the guy triggering Hypergamy with the emotional impact you’re creating for the girls.”. Cosign. I understand the whole theory about women choosing ” genetics “, but I think guys tend to take that stuff waaayyy to literal and try to make it a hard and fast, concrete rule of life. It absolutely is not and if… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

@ ludiam0ndz I think the disconnect is coming at the point where ” sexual selection ” by women is being portrayed as some kind of rule that is somehow self limiting. Giving inordinate power up to a rule. It almost seems to me that women’s selection will always work in my favor, until it doesn’t. What I do know for a fact is that because I LOVE variety in females and sex, what’s been proven to me is that at any given moment, a woman’s attraction queues are fluid. This is how I managed to take of a girls Hijab… Read more »

Troy
Troy
6 years ago

While it’s true that there is no yourbrainonporn site for women, on one of those sites there is a sub forum for all TWO of them. I saw one young lady try it and it made her moody as hell for a few days until she finally gave up and blamed no fap (the website) for being nonsense. I dunno but you can tell from her videos she’s yet another princess bitch from the get go. The part a friend and I found funny was she was named Tara BabCOCK.

Yollo Comanche
Yollo Comanche
6 years ago

@Blax

I think you cracked it dude.

Nathan
Nathan
6 years ago

Hey Rollo,

It’s been awhile; thanks for all the help and info, esp. the life-progression charts. It is worth its weight in gold. Red-pill internalized. ON to new things (asset acquisition).

Looking to buy a used type of car for fun; not as an investment.

What do you like best? Jeep or Sports Type of car (like 60’s type)

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@Blaximus “Evo-psych is interesting and useful, but guys can’t allow themselves to get hamstrung in theories and academia. Evo-psych is not a crutch or an excuse, it is a tool enabling deeper understanding. Ironman didn’t wear his Ironman suit 24-7.” Good point, notwithstanding the fact that it is a great tool. Like I mentioned before, I personally can get very far on a can of red pill theory. (I needed that tool to get where I am today in my sexual strategy, which is in a good place). Moderation in everything including moderation. Before a long time ago, guys just… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

And I am all in with GAME……Learned game for me. No one gave me the memos before. That is why I am here. To learn theory and practical advice. Neil Strauss’ “The Game” set me on a quest back in 2005 that made me an enthusiast of PUA game and I can totally translate PUA game into relationship game. As stated by Rollo in “Just Get It” (August 22, 2012): I’ve stated this before, but, having experienced the ups and downs of single-man-sex-life as well as married-man-sex-life, I can honestly say that I’ve never found Game more necessary than when… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@Scray Another throwback couple of paragraphs by Rollo in “Is Seduction Real?” July 13, 2012 By Rollo Tomassi “There’s a PUA idiom that states 80% of seduction is simply not fucking up what’s already there. Attraction is not a choice – however, what you do from there is entirely up to you. I think people get hung up on the word “seduction.” It conjures up melodramatic associations of doing something nefarious to tempt someone into doing something against their own interests. In some instances that may be the case, but far more often seduction is really just selling yourself effectively… Read more »

EC
EC
6 years ago

Rollo :((

EC
EC
6 years ago

^ Sorry! Didn”t realize that would go through! I’m not gonna post, nvm!

Blaximus
6 years ago

Uh oh. Comments are about to vanish…. damn

Blaximus
6 years ago

@ SJF

Thank you for the Rollo quotations. Good refreshers. I’m going back and check these out in detail. This is the kind of writing and thought that locked my ass into TRM in the first place.

Not Born This Morning
6 years ago

The concern for self cannot be resolved when it is defined by others.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

Hi Rollo – hey…. more advice for you …. in this thread you keep using the phrase “FI” in a way that implies “it” has agency. It would therefore be contingent upon you, to advice as to how “it” is sentient (this relates to my prior advices to you wrt to your tendency to present an idea fashioned just nebulously enough so as to allow you to implement the idea in two ways that are logically inconsistent).

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Still thinking about this whole bit of “women choosing”, which is true in the broad sense but not universal… the 80/20 split and all… I’m sure most guys here have had situations when they turned down female advances. So not always women choosing… happened today. went to lunch, waitress comes out. One i’ve seen in the past, caught some vibe from. But haven’t seen her in a while. She was very pleased to see me. Stayed hovering around me, laughing awkwardly at nothing… Too bad she was a high 5 (5″5″ 100 lbs, tight, tight dancer body, bland face and… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

Rollo ….. I for one don’t think the FI concept should be anthropomorphized. Prior to my earlier advices to you today I had always assumed you meant “FI” as an abstraction like “patriarchy” is an abstraction, a cultural meme (actually a meme of narrative length – a story if you will) that is consequential wrt to human affairs due to humankind’s memetic (and therefore mimetic) nature, al la Yuval Harari and Rene Girard. As I pointed out to Scribblerg here in a thread of many an article ago, things usually go much better for humanity and individual people as well,… Read more »

Blaximus
6 years ago

Jeeeeeeeezzzzz….😦

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@Wild Man “As such, I am suggesting you should be more careful with your language and phrasing (unless it was actually your intention to imply an enemy camp sufficiently aligned intention-wise wrt to using the meme-weaponization you would thereby be implying by the “FI” meme, in which case it would be contingent on you to describe who precisely the enemy camp is and show that there individual intentions are sufficiently aligned).” You haven’t been paying attention much for the last fifty years, have you? Stop walking around with your eyes wide shut. Does Rollo really have to say for the… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

….truly does attempt to nurse power

Blaximus
6 years ago

@ Sentient Good evening. The way I’m reading it, the waitress is signaling big time that she has made a choice. If you reject her openess and giddy signals, she has still exposed a lot of her hand. Love it. I think that for a lot of guys, if a woman initially makes a choice of rejection, it carries more weight in their minds and they get stymied. Initial choices don’t count. Lol, the very first time I laid eyes on my wife, she would not even acknowledge that I was there. I am a huge fan of men exercising… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

comment image

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
6 years ago

Blaximus
Just because they choose, that doesn’t really mean that they have the final say.

Sheeyah, there’s a whole “relationship manual” right there that would put a lot of counselors out of business if more men took it to heart.

Blaximus
6 years ago

@AR

Lol from your lips…er fingers to God’s ears..um..eyes.

TheOldOligarch
TheOldOligarch
6 years ago

Scribblerg, are you being obtuse on purpose? First of all, neither natural nor sexual selection is done by someone, they’re impersonal meta processes. Secondly, you conflate being passive with choosing, but that’s as idiotic as saying the Lord of a fortress under siege somehow chooses who will penetrate his defenses. Sure, the other dude having his soldiers build trebuchets, having his soldiers march for months, conducting military logistics puts in all the effort, while the fortress dude ‘chooses’. If anything men can have more agency in the dating world than women do simply because women are passive. It’s not even… Read more »

TheOldOligarch
TheOldOligarch
6 years ago

Kind of funny people still bother with Wild Man equality apologism and rationalizations.

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

SJF – you said: “Yes, Feminism and the FI and the takedown of the Masculine Imperative is most definitely an enemy camp and it’s prime ammo is the egalitarian / equalist narrative. And you cling to their bullets.” Well then…. as I said above, it is contingent on you then, to describe who precisely the enemy camp is and show that their individual intentions are sufficiently aligned. Are you also implying an agentic camp wrt to the Masculine Imperative? If so ….. it is contingent on you to spell out the details here as well. Are you still using the… Read more »

Wild Man
Wild Man
6 years ago

TOO – you said: “Kind of funny people still bother with Wild Man equality apologism and rationalizations.” You are probably referring to the egalitarian again. I didn’t see your March 21st comments over at Krauser’s site, wrt to his Stirner article, (in which you were commenting on my earlier comment about the egalitarian interface with Stirner’s concepts) until a couple of days ago, and I responded to you then. You probably haven’t seen my new comment there yet, specifically answering your concerns with my position. Here it is: https://krauserpua.com/2016/02/18/the-german-idealist-tradition-in-philosophy-and-daygame/ I hope that clarifies. If you still disagree with something within… Read more »

xsplat
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader IOW – “Women love opportunistically” – Rollo Tomassi Actually that quote should be attributed to Xsplat, as Rollo correctly does when he quoted me in his article. The implications of this are usually ignored. Women give value to men based on a variety of signals, as we all know. Muscular fitness is an independent signal from financial status which is independent from diamond core confidence. What messes with MOST peoples heads is the word AND. MOST people do not have the mental wiring to be able to string together independent variables with the word AND. AND brings us… Read more »

xsplat
6 years ago

For those interested in the orgasm study: https://xsplat.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/women-orgasm-more-for-wealthy-men/

ozza
ozza
6 years ago

What you people don’t get is that you are putting sex on pedestal just like beta chumps put women on pedestals. Think about it Einsteins. Just like water, I choose the path of least resistance. I get more orgasms from porn as it is easier and cheaper. And, orgasm is a bodily function, just like taking a dump. If you are a man, there should special about sex whether it is with a chick or with your hand. Your ultimate aim is to blow your mustard, then move on with the next part of your day. What you verbose Freud… Read more »

ozza
ozza
6 years ago

wheres the edit button.
MEant to say
“If you are a man, there should be nothing special about sex whether it is with a chick or with your hand”.

Mike
Mike
6 years ago

@Anonymous Reader @ Rollo Tomassi If ‘sex addiction’ is a pathology to be managed by the FI, then is the trope of ‘the loser 40-year-old virgin’ or just ‘he doesn’t get laid enough’ the other side of the same strategy? I’ve literally come across post wall girls who have tried to shame me in to having sex with them. Anonymous reader: perhaps the reason that there is no “your-brain-on-shopping-at-the-mall-for-hours-and-buying-some-useless-trinket” is that the manufacturers of useless trinkets have no leverage outside of their shopping mall marketplace, whereas the sexual marketplace is preeminent in every environment, so must enforce and regulate itself… Read more »

Apriori
Apriori
6 years ago

Hi guys, I’m new to this manosphere movement at 24. From what I understand (this is slightly irrelevant to this article) women say things but act differently. Incongruously. https://youtu.be/PUyXKYR0PWo Here is a link of a video just posted today. I just wondered about your opinions. These women keep saying how much they love a ‘nice guy’ a ‘good communicator’ someone who doesn’t get ‘wasted’ and they would take a ‘sweet guy’ over a ‘six pack’ any day. This is obviously bullshit. How many ‘nice guys’ get cheated on and dumbed for being too ‘nice’. That’s a rhetorical question because we… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Mike: ” is the trope of ‘the loser 40-year-old virgin’ or just ‘he doesn’t get laid enough’ the other side of the same strategy?”

Shaming is the strategy. The particular form the shaming takes is a tactic.

@A Priori: “Do you think they know they don’t want this or is it all subconscious and they don’t even know what they want?”

The “mysteriousness” of women’s behaviour stems from the fact that in order for their sexual strategy to work they must be essentially unaware of it. They play the game blind in order that the opposition may be blinded.

xsplat
6 years ago

It has been scientifically carefully and repeatedly studied that our confirmation bias increases as soon as we state an opinion. I’ve met some teachers who have noticed this in their own lives, and have complained of becoming unstoppably fixed in their views and arrogant. One teacher explained to me that this was not actually his fault, because it was the human condition, and that if I was ever a teacher it would happen to me too. I also understand that in order to persuade someone, if you come across as the adversary, they will dig in their heels and defend… Read more »

stuffinbox
stuffinbox
6 years ago

Is it just me,what do you think? As men one by one give up their agency and feminism takes a firm hold at the root family level,the shift to matriarchy,mainly due to the solipsistic nature of women tends to break down the fabric of family and culture at the ground level. Men will follow another man because of his superior rank vision or prowess and band together to complete a task or mission.This happens naturally. Women in absence of a strong male agency,appear to compete with each other over the lead position,based on feelings,they can’t seem to agree on anything,with… Read more »

sfer
sfer
6 years ago

“women say things but act differently.”

I don’t think what they are saying is particularly incongruent with how they act. They want ambitious guys that make them laugh and who have their shit together (doesn’t get sloppy drunk, handles his bills, has good hygiene). They want these guys to be nice and good communicators, but nice by itself is not enough.

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@A Priori: “Do you think they know they don’t want this or is it all subconscious and they don’t even know what they want?” KFG said: “The “mysteriousness” of women’s behaviour stems from the fact that in order for their sexual strategy to work they must be essentially unaware of it. They play the game blind in order that the opposition may be blinded.” KFG’s statement is expounded on here: https://therationalmale.com/2012/12/11/awareness-and-intent/ Rollo: “Regardless of whether a woman is aware of her own motives, it’s up to men to see her behavior as the only reliable indicator for them. As I’ve… Read more »

Striver
Striver
6 years ago

As far as who is choosing, of course women are usually choosing. In selected situations, an apex alpha man, like a good looking pro athlete, the man may be choosing. Those are exceptions though. Even in the olden days, when wives could be purchased, husbands were not purchased. Maybe in a few situations when someone had an ugly daughter of no value the husband was essentially enticed with money. But the olden days had countervailing forces. Frontiers where women could not go without being raped without consequence. Classes of men she could not choose without paying a social price. Consequences… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@Wild Man “Are you still using the inaccurate definition of “egalitarian” as shaped by the PC-misappropriation of the word, (thereby incorrectly implying the operation of altruism and self-sacrifice would be at play within the dynamic)? As well, note that the egalitarian is not the same as equalism. This has already been well discussed here. The pair formation probably entails compromise all-round. Keep all these details in mind when operating the member/gender concept-transformation.” I still don’t know what the fuck you mean by egalitarian. (……and I’m not willing to listen to you explain it again.) Lol? I think you are hung… Read more »

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“The three essays I mentioned are worth a read. And I can’t find myself in disagreement with any of you guys, even Andy.” @SJF Ohhhhh loooord, Kuuuuumbaya. @YaReally Just want to point out a dynamic… “ugh, this all comes down to their gay Chad Thundercock shit, because the TRPers are still locked into the looks and money thing, so they build all this bullshit around an inaccurate premise that every girl always wants the objective-in-any-environment highest Chad Thundercock” What would you call a guy that posts in the manosphere/TRP on a very regular basis for almost 5 years, has been… Read more »

Bromeo
Bromeo
6 years ago

“Guess which guy the married with a great high status job former rock star implies that he is?”

LOL

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