Gamer Girls


Girl-Gamer

I got an interesting comment from regular reader Hollenhund about 2 weeks ago and rather than reheat that thread I thought it deserved a post. I’ll get to that comment in a bit, but the original topic was how Red Pill awareness, or really the Red Pill Lens, applies in different social contexts. I think there’s a misconception about how relevant a Red Pill understanding is in different social environments, ethnic cultures, religious cultures or even what might seem niche or “alternative” subcultures.

It’s no secret I post on a few of the Christo-Manosphere blogs, but this is really just one social subset of the Red Pill. This is just one of a myriad of other social situations I put myself into with a Red Pill perspective. To be honest my natural default is to use a Red Pill lens in most social environments and I consistently use that awareness as a starting point for judging the character of new people I meet.

As a result of my career I’m often asked to organize or make an appearance at promos or product launches in social settings that would likely never occur to me to be a part of. That isn’t to say I don’t enjoy them; I certainly love to do my ‘observational studies’ of intersexual interactions at, say, a martini fest in South Beach, but I don’t think doing a promo at a Goth club around Halloween would occur to me if I weren’t working the event.

However, I’ve found that in all of these very diverse social settings I consistently see the same Red Pill truths, behaviors and motivations predictably play out among the people I work and interact with despite their being bikini models in cocktail dresses or rednecks in wife-beaters and Daisy Dukes. It’s very easy for guys new to Red Pill awareness and Game to think that because the more notable PUAs they see in videos at various clubs are where they’re most successful that they too must emulate this by thrusting themselves into a social environment they’re never going to feel comfortable in.

I’ve covered the topic of domain dependence before, and how it behooves a newly unplugged man to see what social context he finds himself in and understand the limitation of never breaking out of his comfort zone. It stifles a growth and maturity, but similarly I can’t expect a guy to really cast off all his reservations and jump cold turkey into alien social environments in the fashion that my work places me in.

The good news is that you don’t really have to begin in a foreign social environment, at least not at first. I know PUAs like YaReally will stress the importance of getting out in the field and practicing Game – and he’s right, there is no substitute for the education you’ll receive from experience (and failure). However, what that ‘field’ looks like to you can be a great variety of environments.

For example, I sincerely doubt that many religious men would feel comfortable hitting the clubs in Vegas or Miami to practice Game. In fact, Game to them would be limited by their religious convictions, but that Game is still informed by the same Red Pill truth and awareness that Tyler Durden is using in his Game. So what’s to do?

Apply that Red Pill lens, awareness and truth to the social environment you already find yourself in. Game to me as a successful 47 year old creative professional isn’t going to be the same Game or social context you as a 25 year old up and coming anti-millennial will apply. And this is a good thing. One aspect of the manosphere I enjoy is seeing the countless ways in which Red Pill men apply themselves in their various circumstances. It’s very inspiring to see a high school kid and a 55 year old divorced man use the same Red Pill knowledge base to better their lives and achieve relatively predictable results because of it.

One subculture that I’ve been very familiar with for the better part of my life has been the ‘gamer’ subculture. Whether it’s been via my own quirky hobbies or the artists and developers I’ve worked with for years, I’ve been intimately familiar with geek or nerd culture for a very long time. The best part of having had this experience is that I’ve been familiar with it when I was both in my Blue Pill plugged in days and in my Red Pill awakening, to say nothing of being one of the foremost writers in the ‘sphere.

Niche SMPs

I started with all this because I believe it’s relevant to the conversation that got started with Hollenhund’s comment here:

It is rather important when you consider that the majority of the audience for films, video games etc. with the warrior princess trope are probably men. One male fantasy among many is the woman that is girly and feminine in appearance and body shape, but isn’t actually interested in girly stuff, and would rather discuss automatic weapons, martial arts, sports cars, military history etc. after draining your balls. She wears stylish clothes, but would rather go to the shooting range than the mall etc. Lara Croft is a typical example.

Definitely.

I’ve found this trope is most common among the gamer/nerd set. They tend to fetishize the non-conventionally hot “Gamer Girl” or “Geek Girl” who genuinely shares their love of war/video/ roleplaying games, cosplay, Dr. Who, comics, anime, etc. It also has an interesting parallel for guys who are devout sports fans and foolishly build their ideals around a woman who can quote sports stats, loves his team(s) and also loves beer and hot wings as much as himself.

This is what I call a niche sexual marketplace (SMP). As I was saying earlier, just like there are various niche social environs in which to apply Game, there are also niche SMPs that develop within those social contexts. Whether it’s sports, Goth, Christian, nerd, music, etc. or any other culture, the Red Pill truths remain a constant, but the context creates an SMP within it.

This Nerd niche SMP is readily exploited by girls who are otherwise outclassed in a larger SMP by girls who are far more sexy and attention holding. It’s important to remember that Nerd-Space used to be a Male Space that was infiltrated and co-opted by the Feminine Imperative. This infiltration is really standard and formulaic when you consider how the Feminine Imperative has co-opted and assimilated social structures as large as contemporary church culture.

Nerd Space

However, Nerd Space has been even more reformed by the imperative than most other traditionally Male Spaces; so much so that the organic girl-world social dynamics have become an integral part of the male subculture within it. You will never find more hostile a Beta White Knight than in Geek Culture because this Warrior Princess mythology is something they’ve been conditioned to evangelize for for most of their lives.

Embracing and pedestalizing Warrior Princesses is a critical component to a geek guy’s form of Beta Game. It’s ALL about identifying with the feminine and celebrating the fantasy that men and women are not just functional equals, but women are unrealized, patriarchally repressed, Warrior Princesses who (through rampant male idealism) necessarily share a mutual concept of what women should love in men who respect that fantasy with them. The nerd’s fantasy girl is one who finds him irresistible because he believes in women’s unrecognized superiority to male-kind.

There’s a very interesting microcosm within geek subculture that unsurprisingly mirrors virtually every intergender dynamic in larger society. As I was saying before this happens in every subculture – the basic, evolved, Red Pill social dynamics manifest themselves in any human collective – but what’s interesting is that geek culture presupposes that the subculture is founded on principles that make it functionally imune to the larger mainstream culture it considers sexist, racist, xenophobic and cruel. If you look at the social utopia that a franchise like Star Trek hoped to promote you can begin to understand it as a fantasized antithesis to the mainstream collective society geeks consider themselves outcast from.

However, even within a geek culture that despises that mainstream cruelty, AF/BB Hypergamy is still the primary order, but the geek microcosm revolves around making women feel good about themselves to such an exaggerated degree that feminism and fempowerment becomes part of ‘Gaming’ women within that subset. It’s Beta Game on steroids with a lot of ego-invested LARPing (live action role-playing, google it) that’s taken very seriously by the overwhelmingly Blue Pill guys who make up most of it.

Gamer Girl-World

It’s really entertaining to see these guys try to outdo each other when a girl enters that nerd space with even the resemblance of an interest in something nerd related. That glimmer of interest is like throwing a starving man a cracker in the desert most times, and the more conventionally beautiful and sexy she is the greater the effort, or the greater the default despair is for them.

I’ve covered male idealism in a generic sense before, however that idealism (the unhealthy kind) when put in the context of a noble nerd’s fantasy girl – who shares his passions, is considerate of his borderline autism and appreciates his non-patriarchal deference to her – she either becomes something he obsesses over (severe ONEits) or she represents the despair that only an unreachable dream can stir in a man.

That said, semi-attractive gamer girls do exist (nothing more than an HB 7.5 by my reckoning), but most fall into the demographic of ostracized weird girl or semi-goth, fuscia-haired outcast who never clicked with the in-group girls in high school.

Nerd culture represents an environment where a girl’s otherness makes them a prized commodity. Girls who find nerd/gamer culture either on their own or via their ‘cool nerd’ (see Emo-Goth) boyfriend soon discover a social subset whose males pedestalize to an even greater degree than the prissy in-group bitch girls who ostracized them enjoy from men. In fact that pedestalization, that identification, that default deference and autonomous sublimation to the feminine is integral to the nerd culture. So when you combine a gamer girl’s nerd-niche SMP dominance with the overblown pedestalizing most nerds will elevate them to, it recreates gamer girls in the contextual likeness of the in-group girls they despised and never got along with.

Most top shelf gamer girls tend to hook up with the elite, usually Emo, guys in the subculture. The exact same intersexual dynamics remain, but the context changes. All of the fundamental aspects of Hypergamy and social ego inflation remain, but now within a domain dependent environment they can finally exercise their sexual strategies in ways they never could in the social set they’ve been cut away from.

Vox Day had an absolutely brilliant breakdown of female characters in fantasy settings, and what struck me the most was how these archetypes mirrored both the idealized and hated archetype women nerd culture caricatures:

There are three types of women in the world of the Gamma Protagonist: The Corrupted, The Damsel, and The Strong Independent Woman. Average women, in terms of appearance, ability, and moral character, simply won’t exist outside of the occasional passing mention.

  1. The Corrupted are the female villains of the story who were once good, but were corrupted by men and are therefore not entirely responsible for their evil actions.
    1. Type one are blonde and athletic who likes athletic, powerful men. They are beyond redemption, and are rude, aloof, and hateful to the GP for no reason.
    2. Type two are voluptuous, dark seductresses. One of the greatest feats in the story will be the GP’s ability to resist the charms of the insatiable seductress. She will desire him to the point of absurd obsession for no discernible reason.
  2. The Damsel is an incredibly attractive women who is generally clueless about how attractive she is even though she is approached regularly by men. There will be half-hearted attempts by the author to include some traits of strength, but eventually she will need to be rescued by the GP. At which point, she will fall in love with him, of course.
  3. The Strong Independent woman is strong and independent. She also finds the GP irresistible because he respects her.
    1. She is the equal or better of the GP in at least one traditionally masculine ability, usually in physical strength and battle prowess.
    2. The GP finds it endearing and attractive that she bosses him around regularly, and she loves the arrangement too.
    3. The love interest of the GP will have large breasts, usually has red hair, and is the one to initiate sex in nearly every instance. She will be perfectly loyal unless corrupted by some sort of magical force or technological device.

I’m dropping this here, because it’s important to understand the Blue Pill analogous truths that manifest in these character types.

The Corrupted represents all the ‘normal’ women who’ve ever rejected or been casually indifferent to the male nerd. The Damsel is generally the foil for the Strong Independent Woman, whose use is only to serve to bolster the SIW’s superiority. The Damsel is also representative of women ignorant of their role under some vaudevillian notion of patriarchy. And the SIW woman is representative of the sexualized ideal that’s been approved for nerd guys to obsess over courtesy of the influences of the Feminine Imperative.

These are the archetypes for idealized (both positively and negatively) women in nerd space. Consequently, and unsurprisingly, these fantasy ideals are challenged by the real-life gamer girls who progressively begin to understand their own sexual market capital within this subculture’s men and, most often, unwittingly feed that beast.

All that said, if this is in fact your cultural subset, and even if not, it’s always important for you as a Red Pill aware man to bear in mind that the same articles of an intersexual marketplace are always present within any social context. Whether you’re in church or the club or your local game/comic book store Hypergamy doesn’t change, the game doesn’t change, only its contextual parameters change. Roissy had a great quote in the 16 Commandments of Poon (emphasis mine):

XII.  Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses

In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.

Gamer girls may not have been the type to pine for the high school quarterback, but they do pine for his functional equivalent in Nerd Space. Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks are equally relevant and equally subject to a woman’s capacity to optimize on them in Nerd Space. Her SMV may be artificially inflated within that context, but the mechanics remain the same. Everything you learn here or on any other Red Pill blog or forum is universally applicable in any social context – it’s up to you as a skilled and aware practitioner to observe the particulars of your environment, contrast it with Red Pill truths and apply Game accordingly.

For further reading see The Contextual Alpha.


364 responses to “Gamer Girls

  • leeleeinbabylon

    This pretty much fits with the one “gamer girl” / gamer couple I’ve gotten to know pretty well: She was an ex-outcast who had outgrown her awkwardness. She was pretty, thin, put effort into her appearance. Really into everything fantasy.

    She told me she loved to sit and watch her husband play video games for hours. I felt like a horrible failure of a wife after she told me that (my husband was into video games at the time), but I later found out their relationship, though very loving and close, was mostly non-sexual.

    The ex-outcast thing is a big part of gamer girl identity I think. Like it’s a way of disowning the scary crowd of girls and finding safer pastures in maleness, and kind of a neutered variety of maleness.

  • SJF

    “I’ve found this trope is most common among the gamer/nerd set. They tend to fetishize the non-conventionally hot “Gamer Girl” or “Geek Girl” who genuinely shares their love of war/video/ roleplaying games, cosplay, Dr. Who, comics, anime, etc. It also has an interesting parallel for guys who are devout sports fans and foolishly build their ideals around a woman who can quote sports stats, loves his team(s) and also loves beer and hot wings as much as himself.

    This is what I call a niche sexual marketplace (SMP). As I was saying earlier, just like their are various niche social environs in which to apply Game, their are also niche SMPs that develop within those social contexts. Whether it’s sports, Goth, Christian, nerd, music, etc. or any other culture, the Red Pill truths remain a constant, but the context creates an SMP within it.

    This Nerd niche SMP is readily exploited by girls who are otherwise outclassed in a larger SMP by girls who are far more sexy and attention holding. It’s important to remember that Nerd-Space used to be a Male Space that was infiltrated and co-opted by the Feminine Imperative. This infiltration is really standard and formulaic when you consider how the Feminine Imperative has co-opted and assimilated social structures as large as contemporary church culture.”

    Heh, I’m no nihilist. But this was a pretty apparent way Amy Dunne gamed Nick Dunne in Gone Girl. She played to his fantasy. But she was manipulative and he was clueless. Her cool girl rant was given short shrift in the movie, butt was a key to the plot in the book. Quote from the movie inditing Nick:

    Amy Dunne: I’m so much happier now that I’m dead. Technically missing. Soon to be presumed dead. Gone. And my lazy lying shitting oblivious husband will go to prison for my murder. Nick Dunne took my pride and my dignity and my hope and my money. He took and took from me until I no longer existed. That’s murder. Let the punishment fit the crime. To fake a convincing murder you have to have discipline. You befriend a local idiot. Harvest the details of her humdrum life and cram her with stories about your husband’s violent temper. Secretly create some money troubles: credit cards, perhaps online gambling. With the help of the unwitting, bump up your life insurance. Purchase getaway car. Craigslist. Generic. Cheap. Pay cash. You need to package yourself so that people will truly mourn your loss. And America loves pregnant women. As if it’s so hard to spread your legs. You know what’s hard? Faking a pregnancy. First, drain your toilet. Invite pregnant idiot into your home and ply her with lemonade. Steal pregnant idiot’s urine. Voilà! A pregnancy is now part of your legal medical record. Happy Anniversary. Wait for your clueless husband to start his day. Off he goes… and the clock is ticking. Meticulously stage your crime scene with just enough mistakes to raise the specter of doubt. You need to bleed. A lot. A lot, a lot. The head wound kind of bleed. A crime scene kind of bleed. You need to clean; poorly, like he would. Clean and bleed, bleed and clean. And leave a Little something behind: a fire in July? And because you’re you, you don’t stop there. You need a diary. Minimum three hundred entries on the Nick and Amy story. Start with the fairy-tale early days: those are true, and they’re crucial. You want Nick and Amy to be likable. After that, you invent. The spending, the abuse, the fear, the threat of violence. And Nick thought he was the writer… burn it, just the right amount. Make sure the cops will find it. Finally, honor tradition with a very special treasure hunt. And if I get everything right, the world will hate Nick for killing his beautiful, pregnant wife. And after all the outrage, when I’m ready, I’ll go out on the water with a handful of pills and a pocket full of stones. And when they find my body, they’ll know: Nick Dunne dumped his beloved like garbage, and she floated past all the other abused, unwanted, inconvenient women. Then Nick will die too. Nick and Amy will be gone, but then we never really existed. Nick loved a girl I was pretending to be. “Cool girl”. Men always use that, don’t they? As their defining compliment: “She’s a cool girl”. Cool girl is hot. Cool girl is game. Cool girl is fun. Cool girl never gets angry at her man. She only smiles in a chagrined, loving manner. And then presents her mouth for fucking. She likes what he likes, so evidently he’s a vinyl hipster who loves fetish Manga. If he likes girls gone wild, she’s a mall babe who talks for football and endures buffalo wings at Hooters. When I met Nick Dunne I knew he wanted “Cool girl”. And for him, I’ll admit: I was willing to try. I wax-strippe my pussy raw. I drank canned beer watching Adam Sandler movies. I ate cold pizza and remained a size two. I blew him, semi-regularly. I lived in the moment. I was fucking game. I can’t say I didn’t enjoy some of it. Nick teased out in me things I didn’t know existed. A lightness, a humor, an ease. But I made him smarter. Sharper. I inspired him to rise to my level. I forged the man of my dreams. We were happy pretending to be other people. We were the happiest couple we knew. And what’s the point of being together if you’re not the happiest? But Nick got lazy. He became someone I did not agree to marry. He actually expected me to love him unconditionally. Then he dragged me, penniless, to the navel of this great country and found himself a newer, younger, bouncier cool girl. You think I’d let him destroy me and end up happier than ever? No fucking way. He doesn’t get to win. My cute, charming, salt-of-the-earth Missouri guy. He needed to learn. Grown-ups work for things. Grown-ups pay. Grown-ups suffer consequences.

    Guys shouldn’t allow themselves to be gamed? Be better aware?

    Gone girl had trick literary devices (psychopathic protagonist women being unemotional and in control of their own narrative). But is still behooves males to be in control of their own narrative. Don’t be Dean (Mr. Blue Pill) in Blue Valentine or an unaware Nick Dunne in Gone Girl (get with a manipulative woman and be a clueless Nick).

  • Water Cannon Boy

    I was going to make a comment in the Assurances post because that was the most recent, and prequalify it as being off topic, but I think it might fit just fine in this one.
    I was watching a docu on PBS yesterday about the Apollo mission wives. The occasionally get together and check up on how each other is doing. The film maker got them together for this instance, and a few things stood out to me that came up during the show. Each one of the former wives, when talking about why they married the astronauts, mentioned how they liked how their husbands were either a little cocky, were really good at something and carried themselves like they knew it, or they mentioned that they were impressed that “nobody was that brave”. This in particular was from all the astronauts at the time who were selected were also test pilots. Major alpha thrills.
    Next what stood out was a comment from one of the wives. Practically to the word as she was talking about the training they were going through, she said that nobody ever yelled at their husbands or got into an argument because you never knew if that was going to be the last time you’d see them again. Major dread game.
    Third, it had been some time since they had been together prior to the making of the film. Most of them had been long divorced, but none seemed to have had a bitter divorce. One even mentioned that they had a friendly divorce and wished that more people could do divorces as she and her ex did. But many of them revealed that it seemed especially fun to get together this time because they could talk about what interesting lives they’d had. Almost all divorced but none having a bitter divorce and all happy to have such interesting lives due to the alphas they were able to marry.
    Other thing I wanted to make a comment about was seeing in Rollo’s twitter line his link to the old thing about what women on OKcupid find men most attractive at what age, compared to what men find women most attractive. The women raise the ages of the men they find attractive as the women themselves get older. There was an old comment there that the ages the women gave might be skewed conservatively, and I think that might be true because it would blow up the criticism women like to use when men get with women younger than them.
    And also, I think that women raise the age of when the find men most attractive as they age, especially if they are above 35, is really the same ego saving buffers that Rollo talks about men using. Women won’t want to admit that they find a man most attractive if he’s significantly younger, in her eyes at least, than she is. It’ll bring out the hypocrisy for one, but mainly it makes them face up to that fading sexyness. And it makes them feel old, which women can’t stand. Whether it’s someone calling them Ma’am or not getting “street harassed” anymore.
    So whatever it is you can’t get, just keep saying you didn’t want it in the first place.

  • habd

    Rollo
    “Gamer Girl-worl” needs a d…

  • Desdinova Superstar

    Whenever I encounter a “gamer girl”, I immediately see it as a red flag. I’ve been with a couple of women who were extremely addicted to video games. One would stay on the damn thing for 24 hours straight, go to bed, and then get back on it. Another one would play during every moment of spare time. There has been high debate on whether video games are addictive or not. After being with these two women, I would seriously vote that yes, they are addictive. I can certainly see why they are addictive for women; They can induce a lot of emotional fluctuation. It’s just as addictive for them as drama.

  • Fifty Seven

    Would that be dread game, WCB, or just plain old dread? The test pilot squadrons the first astronauts were pulled from had a shitload of deaths. They were testing the first supersonic rocket and jet aircraft, and a lot of them wound up in boxes. Tom Wolfe’s “The Right Stuff” deals with a lot of that; the first chapter talks about the wives in one unit calling around to each other. They’ve heard someone’s been killed and they’re trying to figure out who.

    /sorry for OT

  • Sun Wukong

    @Rollo

    there is no substitute for the education you’ll receive from experience (and failure).

    With the experience I’ve had in the field so far, I’d call it synonymous with failure.

    I’ve been super busy the past couple weeks (including winding up a Canadian visit tonight) so I haven’t gotten to write like I intended. That being said, Rollo would you be down with meeting on The Man Table to discuss this post? I’m really keen to hammer on it with you, and I’d absolutely love to have regulars (Forge, SJF) as well. It’s a subject near and dear to my heart with how I’ve spent the past 20 years.

    Let me know what would work for you, but this sounds like a really fun one for me.

  • SJF

    Tom Wolfe’s writing was perhaps one of my peak experiences in reading . The original non-fiction and then the crazy fiction pieces.

    The Right Stuff was good stuff.

  • Ollie

    “The ex-outcast thing is a big part of gamer girl identity I think. Like it’s a way of disowning the scary crowd of girls and finding safer pastures in maleness, and kind of a neutered variety of maleness.”

    This reminds me of the time I had a female friend – ex-cheerleader, ex-hooters, pretty but normal “girly” girl – go on for about 10 minutes or so in utter shock/disgust about a mutual “gamer girl” female acquaintance of mine.

    Girly girl had just spent an evening hanging out with a number of our mutual friends and acquaintances, and among these people, for the first time, was the gamer girl. Gamer girl was a smart, somewhat awkward girl I knew from high school who, in the intervening years proceeded to get increasingly nerdier and dorkier with the passage of time. By the time of her encounter with girly girl, she had gotten to the point where she was signalling her dorkgirl identity full blast 24/7. From the full on thick rimmed nerd glasses to a giant video game related tattoo on her back (intentionally keeping this vague) to her constant blathering about anime, she was a walking comicon.

    To me, gamer girl was slightly unsettling, but girly girl was having a tough time comprehending her nerdy counterpart’s very existence! I’ll admit, the reason I listened to her lengthy rant was because it was genuinely funny. In Girly’s eyes, Gamer was getting just about every part of being a woman completely wrong, and for some sick reason, doing so intentionally! Exasperated Girly couldn’t decide whether she wanted to give Gamer a makeover/intervention or just stuff her into a locker and call it a day.

    As a man, I’ll admit that I haven’t really given much thought to the way that women, like men, have a tendency to ostracize and marginalize certain types. However, I think its important that we take that into account when dealing with “gamer girl” types.

  • SJF

    @Sun Wukong

    You have a gift of a great voice. I actually have a man crush on it. I truly think that you can engage Rollo in a voice discussion that the manosphere can be enlightened.

    I really think you abdicated a great thing with The Man Table round-table discussions last year. You dropped the ball on a great thing.

    And your initiative in those Man Table discussions literally change my life is subtle ways. It set into motion a bridge between online relationships and IRL experiences. I met with Forge in real life, I correspondend with ScribblerG and it catapulted me. Thanks for that.

    Please initiate.

    (I have no knowledge or experience with gaming or the gaming community. I know you do Sun and think it is a great way to engage you.)

    I love you man.

  • jorxster

    Having dabbled a little in computer games in my teenaged years, but witnessing the explosion of gamer culture today, I can definitely relate.

    I’ve always found it strange and possibly a little pathetic to think of people spending all of their spare hours immersed in a virtual world, creating no real value.
    Yet even world of warcraft relationships happen (albeit extremely rarely).

    also, Rollo, you may want to fire your proofreader!
    “their are” should be “there are”.

  • bookooball

    This is very true. I was a combat veteran, wallowing in misery and PTSD when I met my ex-wife on World of Warcraft, ironically enough. I lived with my mom, had no job, no car, and no hope… yet still managed to catch the eye of a decent looking, yet anti-social female.

    In time things changed and as my SMP value started to increase, so did her insecurities. I started hanging out with friends and socializing again. It began to make her feel uneasy. So much so that she drove me out of her life.

    Looking back I realize that if I was red pill aware during that marriage it would have been a walk in the park with just a little bit of game. Could have even steered her into socializing and not be just a geek herself. Hindsight is always 20/20…

  • theasdgamer

    I’ve been playing some board games lately at meetups. Most of the girls are overweight, but some are attractive. They are typically held at coffee houses, pizza joints, or a bar in the back room. There’s a lesbian waitress at the coffee house whom I’ve been gaming just because. A little pretty and she kind of likes me a little. For some reason, lesbians seem to be found around nerds. Maybe the outcast thing?

  • YaReally

    Got to jump in to explain the PUA side obviously lol:

    We push guys to go to nightclubs or high-traffic daytime locations so they can gather tons of reference experiences as fast as possible in a setting where no one will really remember them and they can relax under anonymity if they fuck up, not because they’re optimal venues to spend your time in.

    It also keeps guys from shitting where they eat. And it puts them in an environment where what they’re doing is socially acceptable, VS trying to kino a girl in a church or gaming social circle full of other socially awkward people (and more and more SJWs quick to take offense).

    Elevatorgate was a guy who cold approached a girl in his safe comfort zone atheist community environment instead of a nightclub. If that dude had asked some random bar chick in Vegas up to his room for coffee she would give no fucks and he wouldn’t end up all over the internet and he would live to go approach another girl. Because people in a nightclub venue are generally socially savvy and okay with sex and flirting.

    When guys try to learn game by staying in their comfort zone environment, especially if they’re extremely socially awkward and/or in extremely socially awkward (or sexually stunted) environments/social circles, they simply won’t be able to rack up the amount of experience (including making mistakes) as fast as they could in a nightclub venue or high-traffic daygame environment and they will VERY likely creep out parts of their social circles and probably end up as outcasts from that environment (because they won’t have the social skills to recover from those situations or often even realize they’re IN them and making girls feel uncomfortable and need to learn calibration):

    And here’s an alpha dude, hanging out with socially calibrated hot women, but is in an environment where red pill shit is massively unacceptable (ending is hilarious):

    That’s all it is. If a guy wants to handicap himself to make learning more difficult than it has to be and add multiple years to his progress and risk alienating his social circles and comfortable safe environment he’s used to, he can do that, but we wouldn’t recommend it lol

    We aren’t trying to make guys into sinful bar-stars tearing up the clubs till they’re 60, we’re trying to put guys in the safest environment possible where they can learn as fast as possible and not spend extra years stuck in the learning curve, learning a set of mindsets that are VERY HEAVILY based around understanding sex and sexuality in full (personally I don’t believe you can fully understand stuff like AWALT, Hypergamy, escalation, beta bucks alpha fucks, women cheating on their husbands, etc without at LEAST making out with girls and touching them and having them touch you back (1st base shit), you simply don’t have the frame of reference for witnessing those dynamics with your own two eyes where you’ll fully believe and internalize it without EXPERIENCING it).

    I’ve had religious buddies hit up the bars with us, walking around with a water in their hands, flirting but not fucking, I had a brown buddy who would take girls home and makeout but then not fuck them because it was crossing his religious lines to actually do anything with them lol But he was out there learning game and advanced fast as fuck.

    Just throwing in the PUA view. We recommend shit for a very specific reason…because we push shitloads of these newbie nerds out into social environments (and have BEEN them) and we KNOW what they’re going to run into out there and want to help them avoid potentially massive consequences.

    Like I love that TRM is here to help the guys who are fixing their marriages or in relationships or are older and just want to understand what’s going on and shit, and I think the stuff covered here is important for PUAs to read…BUT, we are the ones taking groups of super socially fucked up nerds out to interact with other human beings and the way we’re doing it is the most efficient and safe way to train them.

    No one LIKES nightclubs at first, they’re fucking scary and intimidating. RSDTyler HATED them and posted a bunch of rants about how he hates them and doesn’t understand how anyone can have a conversation and everyone is drunk and retarded and the girls are all sluts etc but it was because he didn’t know how to have fun in them and just needed field experience in them.

    No real opinion on gamer dynamics, it’s the same shit as any other niche social group far as I’m concerned but with 1000000x the white knighting lol

  • Wild Man

    @bookooball – it sounds like you liked your ex-wife. If you don’t want to say anything about it, I understand.

    If you are open to letting me know your mind, from one redpill aware guy to another, I am interested to know – game to foster mutual respect, so as to foster trust and cooperation in the relationship with your then wife, because you liked her (besides for sex)? Is that the way you see it?

  • YaReally

    Like imagine teaching this guy to game:

    This dude is PROBABLY a cool guy underneath all his fucking weird mannerisms and ticks and nervousness. He’s legitimately trying to crack some clever jokes but he’s shitting bricks. There’s a guy under that shit that would probably be able to land a cool girlfriend and be a fun guy in social situations if he could crack through all this social awkwardness shit.

    Do you want THAT guy trying to mack this reporter girl? Or one of his female friends in his nerd social circle full of guys just like him but with white-knightery turned up to over 9000? Or some surprise-SJW girl who’s a socially awkward feminist herself and takes everything he says and does in the worst way possible instead of taking it in a polite “I understand this guy is nervous” way like this reporter thankfully does?

    That guy will get socially ostracized from his group so fucking fast and then he really WILL be just a guy sitting alone in his basement getting drunk off tiny wines.

    But put him in an environment where flirting is normal, sex is normal, people are social and friendly and when they’re drunk they can be pretty forgiving of social awkwardness (you can even literally SAY like “I’m nervous, I’m trying to learn how to talk to girls and get laid” to some dudebros and they’ll take you under their wing because that’s NORMAL in that environment VS a church event or lan party), the girls meet enough guys to never remember your name or face or that you even approached them (tons of times you’ll run into the same girl who blew you out months later and she won’t even remember you and will LIKE you this time because your game is better from experience lol), etc etc and that guy could slowly start to handle his anxieties and work on his confidence and shit and over time that guy could maybe become a dude who does decent in social situations.

    And once he’s done that, THEN he can go attack his social circles and shit everywhere he eats without as much risk of fucking his home environments up.

    Also bonus link, grab these before they go down if you haven’t grabbed SHIFT’s infield before, here’s a great one of a group of guys using massive preselection/social proof to own a street-corner merging sets of girls together…any of you could be doing this solo or with a buddy this weekend:

    Grab the PIMP infield for a clip called “How I Pick Up An Eastern European Model, IN THE DAY” where you can watch Julien do this same preselection/social proof strategy but solo in a coffee shop during the day.

    And here’s some BEAUTIFUL evening sober street-game infield by Max at 38:10 in this vid…she’s not super receptive to him at the start but he trusts that over time he’ll win her over, note all the PUA concepts going on (qualifying her, false time constraints, leading, reward/punishment, DHV, building rapport, slowly escalating kino, etc etc)…she buys his coffee and he just leads her home. His game isn’t even that solid sounding, like he yaps away and is higher energy than you have to be (he’s still a young guy, see James Marshall for super chill game) and doesn’t sound like a super cool James Bond. But he knows what builds attraction and how to read iois and when to lead etc.:

    Give that shit a watch to see how possible this shit is. Max is 5’7″ btw and his beard looks like a collection of pubic hairs hanging out on his face. And this is in that mythical Eastern Europe place where the girls are all unicorns not bar sluts that go home with guys they’ve just met according to the RVF and a lot of the Manosphere guys with shit game lol

    Ask yourself what would it take to take that awkward gamer nerd and get him to be able to do what Max or Julien do in this infield? He needs to rack up MASS field experience in a safe environment where he can be awkward and fuck up a ton without a lot of consequences. That’s why we’d take him into nightclubs to learn the red pill, even if he spent the first month just observing from a corner scared shitless to talk to anyone.

  • YaReally

    lol that gamer nerd guy is a Borat type character dude, I just grabbed one of the first vids that came up when I typed “gamer nerd” into YouTube:

    But like, there are a shitload of guys along those lines that aren’t acting:

    etc etc Go attend a comic/gaming/etc convention lan parties tournaments etc and you’ll find shitloads of these guys. These are the guys who are going to eventually type “how do I get a girlfriend I’m so fucking lonely I want to die” into Google.

  • YaReally

    Also I always bring these super weird guys up because they’re not some uncommon tiny minority, these are HUGE majorities of these communities especially in 2016 where no one socializes they all just text and chat/post online and shit. These are the guys that are going to contribute to that huge suicide rate of men and turn to MGTOW and shit. And aren’t going to be helped by “make money bro, hit they gym bro”. Give these guys six-pack abs, a million dollars, and have girls come up and pinch their glutes and they will still freeze up and end up forever alone.

    NO ONE will help these guys. No one can give these guys an actionable plan they can execute step by step to pull out of where they are and end up with them having infield experiences like you see in PUA footage or at least have normal social/sex lives. They just throw offhand “hit the gym bro” advice at them and hope they figure it out or just kind of disappear and don’t go on an Eliot Roger or George Sodini shooting spree when they hit rock bottom for too long or kill themselves.

    These guys aren’t going to learn this stuff in their current circles, especially when the ratio of girls to guys is 1:100 and the 100 guys are white-knights looking to win the maiden by defending her from your evil “manipulation” or creepy uncalibrated shit and SHE is too socially awkward and full of validation from her circle to know how to handle those situations herself.

    These are the guys PUA was designed to help save.

  • IAS

    This also applies a lot to STEM field women, perhaps not to such a dramatic extent.

    @YaReally: I get what you are saying about clubs, it is intimidating but low-risk.

    But I also get what Rollo is saying. You can’t drop these extremely socially awkward guys in a club by themselves and expect them to do more than stay in a corner overwhelmed. It seems possible that they can improve starting with low-level, low-risk game in less intimidating environments, and maybe after reaching a certain level be able to handle clubs.

    I don’t think it is a coincidence that Tyler succeeds as a coach, because he apparently started out like these guys. Some of the other RSD guys I think already started out “more advanced” and may be better fits for a “retired natural” like Scribblerg etc., but I think Tyler resonates with what he calls “hardcase newbies”.

  • kfg

    @Ya Really: “Elevatorgate was a guy . . . and he wouldn’t end up all over the internet and he would live to go approach another girl.”

    Elevatorgate guy didn’t end up all over the Internet. He exists only as “a guy” in Rebecca Watson’s video claim. A massive nerdquest was launched trying to identify him and came up empty, eliminating all the possible known suspects.

    He was either a) some random guy in the hotel bar not shitting where he eats, or b) never existed as anything other than a rhetorical device.

    The point you were using him to illustrate, however, stands.

  • Culum Struan

    @SJF – that’s a really powerful quote from Gone Girl. I’ve seen the movie but not read the book, and that quote is really something – when I see guys post here or on TRP on reddit or whatever, or even posts about guys getting betaized – this quote pretty much seems to nail the female side of it – the female response to it.

    Now obviously 99.999% of women are not murderous psychopaths, but the EMOTIONAL content of the reaction is so spot on (and reminiscent of some aspects of my old LTR) that is actually a bit scary.

  • kfg

    Jump to 7:00

  • Jafyk

    Alright, Rollo this happens every post. Your grammatical errors that is. Please use Grammarly (www.grammarly.com). You can also install it into your browser. It’s a much better editor than MS-Word. I’d do the typing in Grammarly and then copy and paste it into your word press site. That should help eliminate these errors.:)
    You’re still my hero but damn man, lol.

  • Liz

    “This pretty much fits with the one “gamer girl” / gamer couple I’ve gotten to know pretty well: She was an ex-outcast who had outgrown her awkwardness. She was pretty, thin, put effort into her appearance. Really into everything fantasy.
    She told me she loved to sit and watch her husband play video games for hours. I felt like a horrible failure of a wife after she told me that (my husband was into video games at the time), but I later found out their relationship, though very loving and close, was mostly non-sexual.”

    That’s interesting, Lee lee. Mike and I don’t share a lot of the same hobbies. Well, some…we’ll play Axis and Allies for hours, but few others (I can’t remember the last time we played Axis and Allies, probably a year ago). I go shooting with him maybe one time out of ten, I don’t like fishing and get sea sick easily and so forth. He doesn’t want to be married to another guy, he likes the dichotomy. It’s actually the opposite for us. He would think it odd and off-putting if I liked playing video games (though I might sit next to him and the boys and read a book).
    I think women often ruin guy hobbies (but Rollo had a thread on this a while back). Thing that comes to mind is something like a band. Mike was in a band for years, every year and a half move or so he’d start up a different band at a new location. Total, he’s probably played in ten different bands. Whenever a woman joins, there is inevitably drama and it stops being fun.

    “The ex-outcast thing is a big part of gamer girl identity I think. Like it’s a way of disowning the scary crowd of girls and finding safer pastures in maleness, and kind of a neutered variety of maleness.”

    I always felt like an outcast with girls, up until around my mid-twenties when we started having kids. Even now I’m a bit of an outcast.

  • Liz

    “And also, I think that women raise the age of when the find men most attractive as they age, especially if they are above 35, is really the same ego saving buffers that Rollo talks about men using. Women won’t want to admit that they find a man most attractive if he’s significantly younger, in her eyes at least, than she is. It’ll bring out the hypocrisy for one, but mainly it makes them face up to that fading sexyness.”

    I don’t know about this. If it’s true, it’s really deep-seated “ego saving”. Just the other day I was at the home of a 91 year old patient. She was watching Perry Mason, and it struck me that Perry Mason looked handsome to me. The last time I’d seen that show I was probably in my late teens or early twenties and he just looked like some old old dude. Women’s attraction triggers are dynamic anyway. 19 year old Lauren Bacall was hopelessly attracted to Humphrey Bogart, and obviously there’s no “ego saving” going on there.
    It actually strikes me as weird when younger men look at me. I was touring campuses last summer and I thought they were looking at my son (and it struck me that “wow, there are a lot of homosexuals on campus these days). It was only when he went one way and I went another that I realized they were looking at me. Yeah it was flattering but no I was not attracted to them. Good Lord it was weird. Maybe they wanted some lunch money.

  • benfromtexas

    Gamer girls I’ve noticed were always weirdos. Nose rings, blue hair, lumpy, ect… I think you’re right about how they aren’t the “it” girls in the real world do they get male attention in cyber world.

  • Jafyk

    No Liz the young men wanted milk, lol. Sorry, you set your self up for that one.

    By the way, Rollo can you please do a post on Hypergamy being biology vs being learned. I’ve been a lot of hypergamy is learned socialized behavior floating around.

  • gamer

    Nice post. I get what you’re saying but I also agree with YaReally above. You have to have field experience before applying it to your niche SMP.

    Now, after years experimenting with PUA/TRP I can see my old WoW/MtG/RPG groups much more clearly. I can also see all the times that I fucked up when a girl in those groups was interested in me, etc. Wew. Lessons learned.

    The thing with gamer girls is that they game either because (a) they are so fat and ugly they wouldn’t be part of any other niche, (b) they aren’t so ugly but they enjoy the massive amounts of pedestalization they get in the niche, or (c) they are alpha widows pretending they are not attracted to Chad the quarterback anymore. As you can see, none of those points are related to the hobby in question; Hence the accusations of “not real gamers”, #GamerGate etc. etc.

    Hypergamy > Hobbies.

    As Rollo said, AF/BB still exists within the niche. For some odd reason a lot of buff guys were in my Magic the Gathering group, and all the (few) girls swooned over them.

  • DandyDude

    I was looking forward to this post since the subject arose in the Warrior Princess comments. I used to hang out with some folks who were into the geek/otaku/nerd subculture. From my experience, the men in this subculture are the most blue pill identified, envious and one-itis prone in the world, and the girls are the most attention whoring and/or socially akward (depends on the girl) I’ve ever seen. Among some episodes were I drew ire from these guys for fucking the occasional hot girl that ends up in these circles (and without being in a LTR with them, a capital offense!), there is one in particular that comes to mind, from 3 years ago.

    When I started college, I met a couple of girls who studied animation or something equally dorky. One of them was a really sweet, albeit unfuckable, stocky girl, who I befriended. The other was a cute, albeit socially akward, 7,5 blond, slim, with big tits and a nice butt. The cute one was like a goddess in her classroom, every guy wanted her, and a couple of teachers actually tried to pick her up, all to no avail. Funnily enough, for all her social ineptitude, she was perfectly aware of how atracted to her they were . Anyway, after gaming her just barely, we ended up fucking. It was a really bad lay, the girl was terrible in bed and had a really annoying personality, so I nexted her. The thing is, there was this guy who was to most omega male I’ve seen in my whole life, who was madly in one-itis for her. Shit, I wanted to throw the girl his direction, just out of pity for the poor fucker. I wanted to go “here dude, you can have her, you need this more than I do”.

    Like Rollo says, all the regular dynamics played out normally. The reason I didn’t have to put any effort in gaming her (really, she gamed herself) was because I out-alpha’ed every guy in her life. Her SMV was inflated inside the geek context, but outside of it she knew that there were hotter, mere socially savvy girls with whom she couldn’t compete. And her orbiters all hated me with a fiery passion, as usual.

  • YaReally

    @IAS
    “But I also get what Rollo is saying. You can’t drop these extremely socially awkward guys in a club by themselves and expect them to do more than stay in a corner overwhelmed.”

    PUA coaches teaching bootcamps do it pretty much every single night of the week.

    There are a lot of tactics to get guys to take action, you calibrate your coaching style to the guy and what he responds to. Some guys like the drill sargeant approach of being yelled at, some guys need to be coaxed into it, some need to be given the freedom to decide to take action on their own, some need to play games to take their mind off the pressure, some need to be given low-risk missions, some need to be threatened with punishment, some need to be put through a bunch of physical state-boosting exercises or general social freedom exercises, some need to have a coach open and just bring them into a set to help them get social experience, etc Part of coaching is about learning to calibrate to the individual guy and what he responds to and help him work through it. That’s why RSD (and most companies) have different coaches with different coaching styles, so everyone can find someone they resonate with.

    No one is expecting some awkward nerd to go tear up a nightclub on his first night out. Odds are the guy will probably sit in a corner terrified and shell-shocked for a month before he can even ask where the bathroom is. But when he does open, he’s going to be opening in a very safe environment to be socially awkward and commit social faux pas in.

    In an ideal situation, a hardcase newbie has a socially adept buddy who can take him out and make the whole thing not as scary and help encourage him and help him brush off blowouts and slowly work with him to fix his shit through baby steps.

    But in the absence of having that, you just start heading out alone and accept that it’s going to be scary at first. The more time you spend in any environment though, the more comfortable you get in it, just like anything else that’s scary.

    Because what’s the alternative? Ok, diving into the deep end of clubs sucks. But being socially ostracized by your peers in your comfort zone environment and having that taken away from you is going to suck more.

    “It seems possible that they can improve starting with low-level, low-risk game in less intimidating environments, and maybe after reaching a certain level be able to handle clubs.”

    It IS possible, because we all fucking did it lol I wasn’t tearing up nightclubs as a 23yo virgin lol People are a lot more adaptable than they realize and part of putting them in those environments is showing them “there’s really nothing THAT bad that’s going to happen to you here, it’s not like the worst-case scenarios you imagine…when you get comfortable with that idea, we can get you interacting with people”. It’s a slow process and we try to help guys understand that they should be viewing this in terms of years not months, but that’s why throwing them into the deep end can help shave off a ton of time gathering reference experiences that they won’t die if they leave their house and walk into one of these environments.

    And when they DO get over the fear of the environment itself, they now have access to multiple venues full of reference experience practice that they can rack up all the social experience they missed compared to other people. Spend a year going out 5x a week and you’ll have more social experience than most people collect in like 10 years.

    @kfg
    “The point you were using him to illustrate, however, stands.”

    Ya I can point to like a dozen other guys who WERE named and shamed, the point is this is a dangerous time to be macking environments that aren’t accepting of traditional male-female interaction before you have any calibration. I would rather drag a newbie to a nightclub and have him spend 6 months just sitting in a corner scared shitless until he can finally approach someone there, than send him off to try to learn calibration in his social circles. The nightclub shit is going to pay off way more in the longrun.

    That’s why I’m sending 50+yo guys to nightclubs with hot young college girls instead of telling them to just mack their social circles. It’s going to help them improve faster if they can get that whole “I’m too old to be attractive to young hotties” insecurity blown out as fast as possible.

    And I get that this was just a minor note in Rollo’s article and not the focus of it, but I feel like it’s important to clarify what we’re doing so it’s clear. This isn’t just random shit we’re making guys do, we’re running thousands of dudes through this gauntlet and have been for 10+ years because it WORKS and it’s EFFICIENT and it’s LOW-RISK and you can build social MOMENTUM, and if you can get comfortable in a nightclub you gain access to any bar/pub/lounge/club in the world, every city has at least one, it’s a training ground you’re able to use anywhere and everywhere VS having to wait for like, a lan party or a warcraft convention or something to approach the 1:100 ratio of girls there and never really gain any kind of momentum/traction.

    If you’re a Jesus freak in Vegas, terrified of all the sinful scantily clad women, you have to either rework your world views so that you can accept that women are sexual (because you sure as shit aren’t going to learn much about the red pill without doing that), and set some boundaries for yourself to keep yourself from burning in Hell or whatever (like makeouts and leading girls out of the venues only), etc…or you have to accept that you will probably never get good, or will take many many many more years to get good, and will probably not end up having the sex life and relationships and quality of women you’d ideally like if you were honest with yourself.

    Why would I be comfortable in a goth club around Halloween and a country bar full of rednecks and daisy dukes and high end cocktail dress venues etc? Because when I was a newbie I forced myself to go into those venues, scared shitless, over and over, until my brain had enough “you won’t die in these environments and actually most people are pretty friendly and a couple people even opened you at points and were friendly to you” reference experiences that they became no big deal.

    Did it take more than a weekend? Yes. Was it scary? Hell yes. Did I spend a bunch of nights frozen and scared shitless hiding in a corner with massive social anxiety? Yup. Was I WAY the fuck out of my comfort zone with thought loops of “oh god I don’t belong here, everyone is looking at me (they weren’t of course), everyone can tell I don’t belong here, I can’t open anyone, fuck this, ahhhh!!!” running through my head and doing shit like leaving the venue after doing one lap to try another venue that might be less scary? Yup.

    No one can fix a guy like digireaper FOR him. We can give him some advice and mental tricks to help when he tells us exactly how he feels when he freezes up and why he feels that way etc, and at best he could find someone to open sets for him and introduce him, but ultimately he’s still going to have to move his mouth and use his voice and project some words into the face of another human being. Everywhere that isn’t his house or IT room at work is probably outside of his social comfort zone. He’s going to have to hit the point where the pain of not asking for directions or the time or whatever outweighs the fear of doing it. He’s 100% capable of it, every guy IS. But their brains need mass reference experience to believe it. :)

    @scribblerg @sentient @sun wukong @digireaper @everyone who goes out
    Here’s an Tyler posting from 2002, note how all the bullshit he cries about is the same bullshit guys are crying about now. Wahhh clubs are loud wahhh only good looking guys get laid wahhh sluts wahhh it’s all looks wahhh it’s harrrrd etc etc lol Clubs are not his comfort zone, and he has all sorts of judgements and insecurities and fears and shit about them:

    “Subject: TylerDurden seeks advice on his weak-ass club game

    One area of PU that I am incompetent with is clubs. I can’t PU in clubs much better than an AFC, though I haven’t really tried, so perhaps I’m just whining. What follows, is an explanation as to why I find clubs to be a poor dynamic for
    PU.

    I would very much like it if some people who are competent at club PU could tell me why my views are stupid, as they obviously must be if people IRL are picking up in clubs. So PLEASE BLOW MY VIEWS OUT OF THE WATER, as I want to learn clubs this week.

    Thanks in advance:

    CLUBS:
    -competition from several other alpha guys

    -very difficult to hear, making routines/patterns/ev/fluff/gimmicks difficult to execute

    -possibility that HB may want me to dance, and see my version of the robot (j/k, but seriously I’m no John Travolta)…a passable shit test, but I feel like it seems to make me not seem very fun

    -annoying HBs asking me why I don’t want to drink (an easily passable shit test, but annoying for me nonetheless)

    -HB does not view you as alpha just for approaching, as is the case in street PUs, because it takes little courage to approach in a club – compared to the street at least

    -almost everyone else is dressed as well as you, so you don’t even stand out, but just keep up. And even if you do try to exceed, by say wearing a suit, you risk looking try-hard

    -high bitch shield levels, because girls know what’s up before you have won them over

    -drunk girls, while easier to PU, are a complete turnoff for me, so even the ones with lower bitch shields are unappealing

    But most importantly:
    I have a view on clubs, that it is basically an environment that tilts very much in the HBs favour, at least when it comes to sex. To elaborate, let’s make up a quick example. Say there are 100 guys and 100 girls in a club. Out of the 100 guys, there are probably 95 that want ONS. Now, out of the 100 girls, there are probably a much smaller number (say 30, but I really have no idea, and I’m not getting into the whole ’they want you to break down resistance’ thing, I’m just talking intention when they walk into a club, so no lectures:) ). Basically, a HB8-10 has little reason to have ONS with a guy who is not in her looks range, because a hot guy is easily and immediately attainable. Of course, I could normally make myself seem far more attractive if I were in a normal environment. But in a club, I can hardly get my point across as it is simply too loud. Of course I can yell into her ear but that’s hardly enough to alnd the ONS. And in a club I’m not the only guy who’s gutsy enough to use heavy kino, so I don’t stand out there either.

    So basically it seems to me like a club is an excellent place for a guy to go, to find a ONS with a girl that is one point lower than him. For example a guy who is a 7 (like myself) can easily get a ONS from a 6/10 or maybe a 7 if I’m lucky. Anything higher is just luck/numbers game. Now since I’m not interested in anything lower than 8 it seems pointless to me.

    By contrast, I can GUARANTEE that an UG5 can land a guy who’s a 8.9 or even a 10 for a ONS that night as many of my better looking AFC clubber friends have many a time been witnessed throwing nasty warpigs out of their rooms when I have come to pick them up for school the following morning. OH MAN, some of the chicks my good looking guy friends have fucked! Gawd…I’m glad I don’t drink, I’d really rather just go jerk off to some porn than stick anything that I hope to get back into some girl that has 2x or 3x the physical width that I do. I can’t even imagine how it would feel when I can’t connect my hands behind her back because it is just too wide. And feeling the sweat between all the ski folds…

    Now of course I realize that in some clubs you do have the possibility of conversing, especially non-danceclubs. But even in these environments I find that you lose out due to the aforementioned deficiencies (other than the difficulty executing routines due to loudness).

    I have been practicing a kino before talking approach lately and it may help. But other than that, since I don’t like dancing and I don’t drink during sarging (or at all in the last few years), I just can’t seem to get motivated to do clubs.

    So could someone please tell me why I’m wrong. Or at least why I’m right on some things, but need to change my attitude? Am I just rationalizing? I’ve read Mystery’s stuff, but if anyone has any particular points of his that they recall being helpful please post them as his archive is impressively huge.

    Just give me a little help and I’ll be posting club FRs by the end of the week, guaranteed. Thanks.”

    Then he goes out and HITS THE FIELD and TAKES ACTION putting himself outside of his comfort zone determined to succeed at clubs…a couple weeks later he posts again from the field. Notice that now he’s using Mystery Method but he’s still having problems building a sexual vibe, which is a problem a lot of you guys have been running into (and EVERY guy runs into):

    We were out for around 5 hours and did probably around 30-40 approaches (I have no idea really, a LOT). Many of you bros may remember my “TD asks for help on his weakass club game” post. Well after all the wicked feedback, I readup on the Mystery Method, memorized the structure and a few gimmicks, and went out to this big (2-300 people) house party and field tested the shit out.

    (insert a big in-depth breakdown of his shit, search my archive for the masf archives and check out Tyler’s archive number 7 for the “TylerDurden & Eddy let loose at a house party” thread if you want to read all the details)

    “MM is AWESOME for working the room in club/party environments. I couldn’t conceive of a better way. HONESTLY any of you bros who are scared to approach in clubs/parties ahd better get a clue because this shit is fucking EASY and way higher percentage for opening than street approaches. A joke, I was SHOCKED.

    Sticking points: Not yet being able to convert f-closes using MM on chicks that weren’t interested in the first minute. I need a way to seduce the 9s and 10s. Negs establish mutual respect, but seem ill-equipped to attract (at MY level, not Mystery’s). I failed to make them want to make me want them, but simply succeeded in making them think I was cool or something.

    – I need something to transition into sexual stuff in the loud/crowded environment.

    – I just can’t seem to get the sexual tension up that much. I used triangular gazes, bodylanguage, liplicking, kino, etc to get them hot but didn’t seem to be enough to make them want to go home with me same night (except the few who wanted it anyway and likely wanted to fuck someone that night and I just seemed to be the best candidate). I want to SEDUCE chicks, not just fish out the ones who wanted to fuck anyway.

    Can anyone point me to examples of club/party seductions on chicks that were initially uninterested? I’ve read Mystery’s stuff on this but can’t yet seem to turn it over for same night f-close. Really fun night though. I can hardly complain, my first attempt. Will practice further and hopefully post.

    So he’s still struggling. And most people would tell him to give up. Sorry bro you’re too ugly, short, whatever, gotta be Chad Thundercock brah, just give up you can’t get laid at clubs, they’re outside of your comfort zone you can’t just get dropped into a club and expect to do well.

    But Tyler keeps going. A month later he posts:

    “In street PUA, you can go KINO asap, NO PROB. But at the clubs, I’d go KINO asap and her friends would attack me and yell at me and freak out!

    So next club experiment, NO KINO until I isolate. Problem for me is, my game without KINO is SHIT. So I’m not even sure if I CAN isolate without it. Have to work on that.”

    Trying different shit out, determined to figure it out no matter what. 3 months later here are some snippets from a thread where he dumps a ton of field reports in as he’s having success finally, getting girls to approach HIM:

    “dude you’re missing the key points…think about it, I’m not good looking…WHY are chicks approaching me on this night and not others in the past?? I’m DOING something here..but you have to read careful to see it.

    1 – look at the takeaways and the contrast between staying in set as opposed to mingling.
    2 – look at how I created a TEAM UP world with her “we’ll PU chicks together”
    3 – look at how I played hard to get “hands off the merchandise”
    4 – look at how I disarmed the brother with the “I’ll leave then” direct line
    5 – look at how I did NOT use ANY game when I spotted Approach Invites (this is a crucial revelation that many don’t seem to understand and overgame as a result)
    6 – look at how I was able to kiss the guy’s fiancee, while he’s HUGGING her, by having Manifestis occupy him and by drawing her in with the Boyfriend Destroyer stuff
    7 – look how we used social proof to make the other girl jealous and keep looking over, and how by doing the mingling we had people coming to us…

    True, nothing insane or anything..but this was very different for me because the entire DYNAMIC of the club sarge was different than the usual SETS. Totally different style. Remember I haven’t done club sarging for more than a couple months now, and hadn’t been into a club to sarge EVER in my life before that. So to me this stuff is revelatory. To me, making chicks APPROACH ME is something worth posting. I wasn’t posting “I’m hot stuff, look at me getting approached”, I was posting HOW I got them to do that.”

    Years later this same guy who was a big whiny crybaby about clubs and getting out of his comfort zone with the same complaints and worries and insecurities as every guy in 2016 who cries about this shit is doing this:

    Imagine if he had just given up or avoided clubs because they weren’t really his “thing” and he wasn’t comfortable etc. No one would never know what he was capable of doing. You can’t spend your life trying to avoid bad feels, not if you want to fully understand the red pill and learn game.

    Here’s some bootcamp coaching infield footage with students to show what bootcamps are like and how coaches work with guys and their sticking points and get them to tackle these scary situations (also Tyler purposely talks with a chodey low tonality that girls don’t pay attention to which is hilarious my buddies and I do this too lol):

    Ozzie asking a student to explain what he’s feeling infield and his fears and shit, and Ozzie opens a couple making out on the dance floor and the chick loves him lol (he’s like 40+ remember, and not jacked, is like 5’7″ and not a pretty face by any means lol) Student is scared shitless and Ozzie walks him through the anxiety and gets him into set and gets him to eventually makeout and chilling with the girl having fun building rapport etc:

    Ozzie flew from Spain to Vegas, LA, London, etc just to meet and learn from community guys back in the day. Tyler slept on people’s couches and shit. I’ve posted these guys’ backstories and my own before in my archives. So when guys tell us oldschool guys about how scary and hard it is and it’s like bro you have no idea the shit we had to put ourselves through and the insane unimaginable abundance of resources you have to learn from that we would have killed to have access to back then. We were just as chickenshit as you, and we had the same problems and complaints as you, but by finding ways to force ourselves out of our comfort zones we learned to problem solve and gathered reference experiences and built our social skills up, clawing our way up bit by bit. Tyler and his buddy opened 30-40 sets in a NIGHT, which you could theoretically do every night out in the nightlife club scene…you can’t get that kind of reference experience hanging out with your Warcraft 1:100 girl:guy ratio clan or in your church group sin-free function…you will advance SIGNIFICANTLY slower if you limit yourself to those environments.

    Tons of cringe in this clip but you can see this next dude start to loosen up as he gets blown out along with some friendly reception as his brain realizes “nothing that bad will happen, you’re not going to die” and he sticks in there and has a few good sets and some number closes of girls that should be way out of his league (I’m sure they’re just platonic “we have a group going out to this place, bring your group and we’ll put you on a guest list” closes but hey, baby steps to build confidence):

    And just for fun:

    Here’s Tyler hanging with a bunch of alpha good-looking ripped/jacked dudes, Brandon Carter, Elliot Hulse, Frank Yang, some other dudes I don’t know lol, the first bunch of this clip is a good look at dudes interacting, lots of little AMOG dynamics and frame battles and shit going on but skip to 17:40 for Tyler taking over. He introduces Elliot the huge jacked alpha mofo and he spits some awkward “are you introducing me to this young lady?” game (to be fair the dude is married long-term (the short-haired chick Tyler puts his arm around early on) and I’m pretty sure he knows he doesn’t really have game lol, but by TRP logic the girls should all be jumping on him feeling his biceps and ignoring Tyler etc). Couple minutes later Tyler is surrounded by women, leading them around, etc. Then he does some sets, throws some guys on girls, forces some guys to approach some girls and toward the end Tyler moves in on a girl with heavy physical game (you can see her glance at him and he locks eye-contact and moves on the ioi and escalates while the other guy just yaps away and you can clearly see the difference between the grounded solid oak tree unreactive subcomms Tyler has (FROM GOING OUT A SHITLOAD IN NIGHTCLUBS lol) VS the reactive subcomms/vibe the other guys has):

    Hit the clubs, gather mass reference experience, THEN fuck the girls in your Warcraft club (except you won’t want to because you’ll be able to get better girls lol)

    And again we’re focused on helping these guys, the ones that most people would write off as hopeless cases:

    And for @rollo and whoever else wants gamer hookup drama here’s an account of a married gamer couple where the chick banged and gave handjobs to a bunch of dudes with her hubby there etc, lots of redpill dynamics and everyone involved is ugly/average lol:

    http://pastebin.com/BAqSQww1

    My fav part is “almost every single SMB runner at the event got a handjob from Tolki. She wasn’t even drunk, but she’s weird. I honestly don’t think she’s a slut, but she thinks that’s how “normal girls” behave and just jerking off other guys is normal.”

    And from the apology stuff:

    “It began one night when Tolki, the couple other guys and I decided to drink. Sam didn’t drink, and actually clammed up and became silent while we were just hanging out and drinking. Eventually, he wound up leaving the room without saying anything, and he didn’t come back for the remainder of the night. As the night went on and we all got drunker, things started getting crazier. We were cuddling and such, and by the end of the night we all wound up kissing Tolki.”

    “People are making Tolki out to be this giant whore and ultimately the bad guy in this situation. She is neither of these things. I’d like to let you all know that she is a very intelligent, attractive individual with a lot of potential. She thinks so much about other people, and would help anyone with anything. As I said before, she was just very confused with the way things were going in her marriage, and she didn’t know where to turn. There wasn’t much she felt she could do. this built up over time and what happened was an outlet. I’m not saying that what happened was acceptable. I’m just trying to put this in her perspective for you and help you be a little more understanding.”

    Dat white-knightery defense! She’s the real victim lol

    Now the question is: do you wanna chase THAT girl around and compete with the 1:100 white-knight brigade of chodery for some married damage-case chick with all your drama posted all over the internet, and use THAT as your training ground for learning pickup? Or do you want to go to a nice safe anonymous nightclub where nobody will remember you from a hole in the wall when you ask people where the bathroom is and eventually end up doing what Tyler’s doing in his infield footage?

  • LeeLee

    @Liz, the idea of a wife sitting quietly for hours just *watching* her husband play video games and loving it just struck me as the most adoring, reverent, docile image of a wife.

  • hoellenhund2

    I’m not certain about the narrative that gamers are massively Blue Pill. They are a subculture ostracized from mainstream society, widely exposed to online trends. The whole Gamergate thing makes it obvious that they are seen by feminist cultural commissars as insufficiently indoctrinated, too off-script. I’d say average non-gamers are more likely to accept the Blue Pill without question. The FI being what it is, such differences can only be marginal, of course.

  • hoellenhund2

    When guys try to learn game by staying in their comfort zone environment, especially if they’re extremely socially awkward and/or in extremely socially awkward (or sexually stunted) environments/social circles, they simply won’t be able to rack up the amount of experience (including making mistakes) as fast as they could in a nightclub venue or high-traffic daygame environment and they will VERY likely creep out parts of their social circles and probably end up as outcasts from that environment (because they won’t have the social skills to recover from those situations or often even realize they’re IN them and making girls feel uncomfortable and need to learn calibration)

    Funnily enough, someone made exactly the same point on RVF back in 2013:

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-33562-post-665457.html#pid665457

  • stuffinbox

    @YaRealy

    You should get together w/ some of these guys and wright a PUA game.
    An RSD virtual bar PU game. Million dollar idea.

  • LeeLee

    You know, I think there’s an entire subset of women who think it’s a viable sexual strategy to play up the fact that they don’t fit in with other women.

    There was an entire crop of teen movies at one time that celebrated the inner and outer beauty & superiority of the girl who didn’t fit in.

    I think some less socially insightful women pick up on male frustration with feminine behaviors (flakiness, being a lil boring maybe, and vain) and get the confused idea that men don’t like feminine women — so they try to signal how NOT feminine they are “Girls don’t like me” “Girls are so catty” “I prefer hanging with the guys, less drama”, etc in hopes of being perceived as that superior woman.

    It’s not even that uncommon to meet girls who enjoy playing video games at least sometimes with their boyfriends or husbands, but for girls who get SUPER into it so that it defines them “gamer girls!” I think part of it is that signalling that she doesn’t have those feminine traits she thinks are such a problem.

  • Andy

    “and they will VERY likely creep out parts of their social circles and probably end up as outcasts from that environment ”

    Me in college!

    “When guys try to learn game by staying in their comfort zone environment, especially if they’re extremely socially awkward ”

    I’m not extremely socially awkward, but I’m not pushing myself enough. I’m going to write this down here to hold myself accountable. I could be learning faster. I need to get the fuck out of my house. lol. It sounds ridiculous. Why is it so hard?! haha. ugh. Two nights a week. gtfo out of my house. Also, drinking too much again.

    On the bright side I do think I am making progress. Internally I don’t feel that much different but people are reacting to me differently. I went for a run yesterday and women were just flashing these great big smiles at me like I had a booger hanging from my nose or something(It wasn’t that, I checked.) In their cars, on the sidewalk, old ladies, young ladies… Not sure exactly why, But I LIKE it.

  • YaReally

    Watch this shit at 2x speed to avoid having to listen to her lol…”donation battle” Dat thirst:

    And fuck it, here’s $7k just for existing:

    Remember when you made $10,000 to just play some videogames?

    This chick doesn’t even get naked or suck a bunch of dick or anything. She just exists and knows how to do her makeup.

    Remember this when a girl asks you to buy her a drink or dinner or talks about how oppressed women are or complains about her cushy HR job not paying her enough lol

    This wasn’t a thing that existed 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago really. But this is 2016. You want to go out to bars and try to compete by having money? You think this chick gives a shit whether you have money? And when you look at a bunch of hot girl’s phones and realize just how far-spread social media is and how common it is for girls to have sugardaddies and random armies of donors and shit…like, it doesn’t matter if I have a ferrari lol Other guys will give her 3 of them just for putting on a schoolgirl skirt in her profile photo or going on a platonic date with them.

    Focus on learning game and making an EMOTIONAL IMPACT on women. Learn to make them choose and CHASE you. Cause girls don’t need your money anymore and it’s only going to get worse, there’s no putting the social media donation culture back in the bag. External attributes will lose their value, but women will ALWAYS respond to emotional impact.

    This chick lists herself as a “Streamer.Content Creator.Entrepreneur” lol

  • gamer

    @hoellenhund2

    “I’d say average non-gamers are more likely to accept the Blue Pill without question”

    Maybe gamers are more likely to accept the Red Pill thanks to their familiarity to the internet and internet underground groups

  • kfg

    My take is that gamers are, on the whole, anti-feminist, but blue pill pedestalizers nonetheless.

    Just look at the way Sargon of Akkad goes all goofy when he interviews even the feminists he opposes. Just listen to the down on one knee supplication in the tone of his voice in this one:

    And a woman’s take on how she wrapped Sargon around her little finger:

  • Liz

    Good one, kfg. Here’s another:

    (Mike actually sent me a link to this one and said it reminded him us. Gag right? Please don’t ban me for that, Rollo):-)

  • Willy Wonka

    One niche I just thought of at random are female PUA’s.That would be something wouldn’t it.Hopeless romantics using game/tactics to get a guy.Until I googled it and what I found astounded me.(well sort of raised an eyebrow).I mean cumon right.Do girls need any training when it comes to relationships.Do they need to “PICK UP”. Those two words spell it out just fine.Its a numbers game.Going from zero to hero/spinning plates. But they are out there.

    Its until I pondered over the idea that my red pill reasoning started to kick in. Its not a numbers game. Its a quality game.Its about what quality of man her smv can attain. And well there is the aspect of money that the PUA industry rakes in.(Women paying other women to tell them how to get laid…That still doesn’t make sense to me.)

    This is one of the links I got after my google:

    http://www.elle.com/life-love/sex-relationships/news/a15346/tips-from-female-pickup-artist/

  • Liz

    For clarity, To me it was sweet, obviously. But I’m sure I’m gagging out everyone here.

  • DandyDude

    @hoellenhund2
    You make an interesting point, but I still think geek/gamer/whatever culture is deeply blue pill. Yes, there is the imageboard dwelling crowd that at first seem to be redpill, or just plaing negative towards women, but, from my experience, these guys are like that online, while in their actual lives they are very docile and blue pill. It’s a weird kind of “my girl is not a whore” applied to the women around them, while the same girls showing their tits online to get validation have no value. At least that’s what I saw in my old social circles. I think kfg said it well: gamers are, on the whole, anti-feminist, but blue pill pedestalizers nonetheless.

    By the way, I never got the appeal of having a girl that likes games, sports or other traditionaly masculine things. It’s actually a turn-off for me.

  • Survivorman

    Only slightly O.T. – I’ve seen this “niche SMP” dynamic play out in the motorcycle enthusiast and offroad bicycle rider social circles.

    An HB-3 or 4 can “elevate” her status in the group by 2-3 points if she feigns interest in just about any male-dominated space.

    The problem(s) are;
    A) They’re not that hot, and
    B) The competition for their attention is immense.

    Good, old-fashioned Attention Whoring at it’s very worst..

  • Tom

    “Beta game” is an oxymoron.

    The two can’t co-exist.

  • Andy

    “For clarity, To me it was sweet, obviously. But I’m sure I’m gagging out everyone here.”
    😦 Don’t worry Liz, we’ll always be here for you to double click your mouse.

  • Andy

    @yaReally

    Inspiring shit. Thanks man.

  • Bromeo

    What HB would you give this gamer chick? (note the bf in the pics)

    https://www.instagram.com/sniperwolfpack/?hl=en

  • kfg

    6.5 pretending to be an 8.

  • Tom

    The same dynamic hold in any field that has primarily a male demographic.

    For example, this

    is why Sarah Palin has the biggest contigent of male fans of any female politician.

  • theasdgamer

    I’ve been learning some from playing board games with other people. Some of them (e.g., Avalon and One Night) are competitive and involve lying and deception and are useful for learning to calibrate whether people are lying or telling the truth.

    These people seem to be less nerdy than some. Quite friendly and accepting and most aren’t awkward. One guy I especially connected with is a natural. (Big surprise that we connected. He met me at my club last week.) Not what I expected.

    Board game meetups don’t have loud music playing and allow normal convo. There’s natural rapport in the games and men and women have to sit fairly close together around the board. Low risk if you want to use the meetup primarily to observe people and learn about them.

  • Liz

    😛 Andy. Hey even Chuck Yeagar named his plane after his wife, “Glamorous Glennis” how sappy was that?
    “Cool” guys can be sappy too.😉

    Plus it was EXACTLY like us. I was the cheerleader, and there was that weird blonde girl writing notes next door.
    The only difference was I kicked her ass and dorky blondie was outa there and…yeah! The rest is history.😉😛

  • kfg

    I have to admit that my first reaction to “I can field dress a moose,” was, “Alriiiight!” And the shaming she took over it actually surprised me.

    Of course that was before she summed up her foreign policy with, “I can see a Russian house from here, Charlie.”

  • Andy

    Liz, hate to break it to ya, but *you’re a dork too*

  • Water Cannon Boy

    @ Fifty Seven
    Whether just dread, dread game, or unintended dread game, name could be different but the result was the same.
    Can the think of any married guy who had a wife that would make a that much of a conscious effort to not argue about anything? Or even single with girlfriend. Still shows that dread/dread game actually does work. It’s an amplified example, but very telling.

  • Razorwire

    “…if this is in fact your cultural subset, and even if not, it’s always important for you as a Red Pill aware man to bear in mind that the same articles of an intersexual marketplace are always present within any social context. ”

    So true. I’ve got nowhere near the cross-cultural experience that I’d like to have in terms of observing and experiencing these dynamics within the various subsets, but like Tom mentions above: “The same dynamic hold in any field that has primarily a male demographic.”

    When I was younger I was really into climbing. Me and the guys would bust out into the hills and climb, drink beer, and bust each others balls. Embedded within that was not just male camaraderie, competition, and the interplay of the various hierarchies based on skill and accomplishment that you might expect but also the subtle – and critical, aspects of elevating one another as men through action, teaching and learning moments, and the unspoken bonds that form only in the presence of other men.

    Now, (and perhaps where I live) climbing is just one more social-status cluster of sexual posturing. Women climbers compete with the men but also easily step into those roles of adoration and go-girl sexual power plays that completely undermine any true male bonding. It’s just another scene.

    Taken even further, I once trained martial arts – overseas in the country of origin and saw this same thing play out with the addition of only a few women. Misfits in ladyland, no doubt, but even physical ‘alpha’ men of extreme skill and fitness and brutality required of the sport were immediately taken by these laura croft badass bitches. It was eye opening to say the lease, but also a bit demoralizing since I saw the fighting arts as one of the last of the male spaces. Eh, so it goes. Progress.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    I think some less socially insightful women pick up on male frustration with feminine behaviors (flakiness, being a lil boring maybe, and vain) and get the confused idea that men don’t like feminine women — so they try to signal how NOT feminine they are “Girls don’t like me” “Girls are so catty” “I prefer hanging with the guys, less drama”, etc in hopes of being perceived as that superior woman.”

    Hey Lee,
    That’s pretty much what women have always done for attention grabs. The recent crop of women posting pictures of themselves holding signs claiming they don’t need feminism. Women doing slut walks and complaining about men using bitch in a general sense, but the first thing they do when it comes to trying to eliminate other females from competing for male attention is to label the biggest threat as a slut or a bitch.
    And it’s no coincidence that women are always calling for solidarity among other women, but don’t take long to start going after each other. Women know how women are. Men are the ones that try and fail at the nice guy/white knight and then don’t know why.
    So yes, women will do that as a strategy. That’s why women are super suspicious of other women who want to do things that guys usually do.

  • Pinelero

    How does this dynamic work out for guys in more traditionally female spaces? For example there are a few boys at my girls dance class. Boys there only signed up for hip/hop.

  • Liz

    “Liz, hate to break it to ya, but *you’re a dork too*

    People always scoff at the beginnings of great vision…but mark my words, perhaps not this year or in the next, but five years from now, everyone will be wearing this frog helmet.

  • Forge the Sky

    “When guys try to learn game by staying in their comfort zone environment, especially if they’re extremely socially awkward and/or in extremely socially awkward (or sexually stunted) environments/social circles, they simply won’t be able to rack up the amount of experience (including making mistakes) as fast as they could in a nightclub venue or high-traffic daygame environment and they will VERY likely creep out parts of their social circles and probably end up as outcasts from that environment (because they won’t have the social skills to recover from those situations or often even realize they’re IN them and making girls feel uncomfortable and need to learn calibration)…”

    Random thought, not sure how much it holds water.

    When I was younger I was very repressed emotionally, sexually, etc. Part of that was religion, sure, but there were a lot of devout guys who would ‘make a mistake’ when they were in some sexual circumstance and then of course you just rationalize it in the moment, so that’s not a good explanation.

    I remember what that was like. One time I was at a party and some girl there was pissed cause a guy she liked wasn’t paying attention to her, so she retaliated by offering a lap dance to someone, and so my friends put me in a room with her for the lulz. I went along with it cause I was terrified to say no to a girl back when I guess, but afterwards I was absolutely furious at them and railed against decadence and taking sexuality lightly and shit like that.

    My friend’s reaction was a bit confused, though not wholly unsympathetic. They thought I was off-base but basically came around to ‘OK maybe that was a bit too much to do without your permission.’

    Under the hood it was just sexual fear/repression though. It emerged as anger cause i was so freaked out at being in over my head. I think part of this crazy sensitivity to ‘sexual assault’ ala elevatorgate is a symmetrical female response – nerd girls aren’t as used to sexual expression in general so it freaks them out.

    But look at how society in general reacts to that discomfort. I was lucky I had sympathetic friends who grew up in a similarly repressive environment – most men would be laughed at in that situ. Girls? Mobilize the forces! Splatter the headlines with blood! A red sun rises.

    Fortunately that sorta thing is jumping the shark a bit lol.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Tom, every guy has a Game.

    Every guy you know has some concept of how best to approach and come to intimacy with a woman. How effective, how founded in observable, behavioral truths that game is may be questionable, but guys who practice a Beta Game founded on Blue Pill idealisms are still practicing a methodology they believe will get them a girlfriend or laid or what have you.

    https://therationalmale.com/2011/09/02/beta-game/

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Bromeo, ’bout an HB7. She’s got the ‘cute girl’ thing working for her. “Cute” not “Sexy”, not “Hot”.

    Indentured Beta orbiter in the mall pics noted without comment.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    I grabbed this quote from the reddit sub I started for this post:

    In addition, women have turned Comic-con conventions into a fucking nightmare. It used to be that comic con was populated only by your nerdy basement dwellers and casual comic book enthusiasts. Now with “nerd culture” becoming more mainstream, comic con has become swarmed with attention-seeking women wearing the skimpiest outfits commercially available. It’s like Halloween all over again for these women; they absolutely love dressing up for the beta validation that gets dumped on them. And to make matters worse, they’ve got betas running around with camera crews interviewing the hottest ones and making them feellllllll speciallllll. Ugh. Can’t stand it.

  • kfg

    ” . . . ’bout an HB7.”

    I knocked off half a point for her having the right bone structure to support her skill with makeup.

    She’d make a good runway model if her legs were long and thin, rather than short and stumpy. Runway models are plain to homely, but have the bone structure to be painted up as anything the “creative types” wish to make her into. You can’t work that way with actual pretty girls. The actual pretty tends to bleed through the artistic image.

  • quixotic

    @Yareally

    FR follow up – Blessed be the name PUA!
    Ok lol so last night I went out with the girl I picked up 2 weeks ago after some reopening with text game. Thanks for all your advice fellas.

    Recap of my FR so far: Met her at a bar, high attraction, lots of kino and lazer eyes; went in for kiss got the cheek, didn’t get butt hurt, interaction got back on track but my buddy wanted to bounce so I had to settle for a strong number close. Texted her next day tried to set up a Sunday date, she half committed then said couldn’t make it. The next week I sent a “come meet me tonight text” she said she was busy and explained she is always busy. I said no worries, hit me up.

    A week passed and she had not hit me back. I reopened with a text that showed entitlement, playfulness, sexual vibe. Basically said “angry face you never texted me back does this mean the wedding is cancelled? Crying face” she immediately responded and mirrored my playful vibe, “no the wedding is still on, I am getting my dress:) ”. This led to several fun flirty roleplaying texts about her dress, the honeymoon, etc. She was eating it up. I never asked her “when are we gonna go out.” After a few of the wedding roleplaying texts I got real and said what are you up to im getting food with my buddies. She said what are you doing tomorrow night:) ? This text interaction was also really good cuz it reminded me of sales when you do a follow up. Like she was interested in the product, she just needed a friendly reminder poke (with no pressure) that the product was still available. She did the rest. Mystery’s cat string theory!

    So last night we met up at a spot I use a lot for first time meet ups. It’s got a cool vibe and most importantly close to my pad. She showed up looked amazzzzing haha. Like damn every dude in there was checking her out. BTW I had fucked up hair again didn’t shave and wore a wrinkled shirt lol It looked awesome hot stunner in a mini skirt and fuck me boots and scumbag me looking half homeless.

    We had good kino, good comfort building talk, she was definitely having fun. Broke rapport on purpose occasionally, working on my push/pull. Then DUN DUN DUN…she said she has a kid. Lol kind of figured cuz she said shes always busy. She wanted to know all the interview questions, I tried to steer away and keep light.

    After a few drinks I told her lets head out grab some food. She got skittish. “Where are we gonna go after that…?” I said we would head back to my place to eat – she interrupted me I don’t think that’s a good idea I don’t sleep with guys on the second date (lol she counted my pickup 2 weeks ago as a date).

    I said lets hit another bar then and she happily agreed. We walked out and I told her to give me a ride to my car. When we got to my car, I went in for the kiss. She gave me the cheek. I just stayed exactly where I was and a second later she turned her face and started kissing me. We made out for a minute then I jumped out and we drove to the next spot. She did not want to jump in my car; she wanted to be in hers so I could tell banging her was gonna be an uphill battle lol.

    We get to the bar. It’s actually the bar I met her at 2 weeks ago. We start drinking and making out, dancing grinding hands all over her, hands on her throat as we kiss, shes all over me, her hands in my hair, shes rubbing my chest, im slapping her ass etc Went to get drinks and 2 random drunk bar chicks pulled me, grabbed me wanted to take my pic with them i totally could have kissed either one of them lol. my date saw the whole thing bahaha

    Its now 1am and we go outside to get some air. She said she has to go. She tells me she wants it but doesn’t fuck guys until she knows them better. She can see how turned on I am, I keep attacking her kissing her and then just suddenly dropping her to return/restart conversation (like mystery says).

    Soon I have her leg up in the air straddling me, my hand groping her ass leaning against some strangers car as we make out. I can see the bambi look in her eyes. It’s the look where she sees the strong sexual animal intent in my eyes. Girls are always half-afraid/very turned on by this, its kind of my specialty lol I go into animal mode/caveman mode mostly grunts and growls as we kiss. She says she has to go NOW. I say ok with a knowing smirk. She gets in her car, a few more kisses and then we split separately.

    ARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG lol

    So basically I can bang this chick if I keep seeing her that’s for sure. But damn like WTF she was dressed for sex, horny, kissing me I kept escalating but now today I have this gut feeling that she had pre-decided we were not going to have sex no matter what. I went out with the intent to bang, logistics handled, had a jimmy on me in case we fucked in car/her place, and I kept escalating toward sex in conversation and action plus my thoughts were all about sex. And she was turned on so I don’t know what else I could have done to bang her lol. Also this is a big sign – she ate alone on her way to meet me, we only drank booze and never ate, so she knew exactly why she was meeting up with me.
    Anyways I am still extremely happy lol. This was literally the hottest girl I have ever dated/kissed in my life. And I picked her up in a bar all by myself:) Everything that happened so far with her is because of my actions, my tenaciousness, my bust a move entitled masculine energy.
    And I PICKED HER UP IN A BAR FULL OF DUDES WAY MORE HANDSOME AND BETTER DRESSED THAN ME lol. I cannot explain how proud of myself I am for taking action. Like Julien says, get turned on by yourself for taking action, not her reaction. I can’t believe how much last night has pumped me up. Like now I know I DESERVE AND CAN GET a girl this hot. So theres no turning back, my brain now has proof not promises.

    Like if she didn’t have a kid she would be wife material, super girly bubbly giggly sexy and little fiesty just how I like em. So I will keep growing and learning and eventually someday I will find a girl like this one that fits my stringent criteria and put a bun in her oven.

    I am gonna go out tonight and look for new girls:)

    Thank you so much Yareally and all the men who have helped me get this far. If you are a lurker reading this, it is 100% real and possible guys. JUST DO IT

    Happy Friday boys time to hit the bars

    Note to @sentient:

    I used compliance hoops early and often: Made her rub my sore shoulder, made her try my drink, made her give me a ride, made her hold my jacket etc. :)

  • Tom

    @Liz
    “…but mark my words, perhaps not this year or in the next, but five years from now, everyone will be wearing this frog helmet”

    Ya gotta start up an etsy shop & put these things on sale.

  • Tom

    @Rollo

    I guess it comes down to a difference in starting definitions for the word “Game.”

    I always defined game as only being “Game” when it “works,” ie., produces positive results of a guy getting together for good sex and good relationships with the women that are right for him.

    When it doesn’t work, ie., either produces no results by getting him no women, or even worse, produces negative results for his life, such as ending up a divorce-raped, 47-year-old bitch … that was the antithesis of Game for me, … Anti-Game, if you will.

    I see where you’re coming from, though. Game is a set of rules and guiding principles a guy follows to try to get the women he thinks he should want- whatever that set of rules may be, whether reality-based or totally misguided.

    I’ve always been not just method oriented, I’ve even been more than goal-oriented (talk is cheap.) I’ve always had a laser like focus on Results. For real.

  • Culum Struan

    @quixotic – great work dude. Amazing feeling to keep improving and see results, hey?

    I’m not sure there’s that much you could have done differently. The basic advice is that you change her mood, not her mind (so get her horny enough to come to your place, don’t try and ARGUE her into coming). But it looks like that was pretty much what you were doing and it was working, just not enough.

    Sometimes you can’t break through the hardcoded “not on first date” mindset, especially if she had a kid and (probably) had a “hard” deadline to get home.

    That said, a couple of thoughts:

    1. Why on earth did you tell her at the first bar that you’d be taking her to your place after food? That was just giving her logical mind time to raise shields to full power. You could just have said let’s get food and see, and then told her right as you were going to your place (close to it) that you were going to yours..much less time for her to object if you are already nearly at your place (especially if your frame is strong enough – I recently got my so-called “epiphany chick” home by doing exactly this and she said “no I’m not coming to your place” and I just kept walking towards mine and she followed). In fact if your frame is strong enough you don’t even have to respond to her questions about where you’re going..

    2. Why not try and get a HJ or BJ from her if you couldn’t get her home? It sounds like she was more than turned on enough – you could have just got some privacy in the car and pulled it out – from your description I’m guessing 80%+ chance of a BJ, since it doesn’t violate the no-sex/no-going home with him rule (this worked for me in near-identical situation with a Tinder MILF recently). Plus you’d have enjoyed it and it would have helped reduce the ASD shitstorm that may now descend on you..

    3..Which brings me to ASD. I hope it doesn’t happen to you (I’ve had a couple of similar experiences where I’ve escaped it) but this is a classic ASD case – where you got extremely sexual and got her extremely horny without sealing the deal. Huge risk now of her ASD kicking in (because she knows that next time she sees you she is pretty much “coming over for sex”) and her flaking on you. The rule is that you don’t get her that horny and escalate without being ready to go all the way – but you didn’t acutally break that rule. Sometimes you’re just unlucky. Because the effect is still there.

    YaReally has written about this in his archives, but basically now you need to pull back on the pressure and be all friendly and non-sexual and get her to meet up with you again. DO NOT suggest her coming to your place..suggest something non-sexual (movie, dinner, romantic walk..whatever) that has good logistics to her place, to make sure she doesn’t flake and then escalate and close the deal in person.

    Good luck!

  • Forge the Sky

    “As Rollo said, AF/BB still exists within the niche. For some odd reason a lot of buff guys were in my Magic the Gathering group, and all the (few) girls swooned over them.”

    I’m not much of a gamer, but I do have a few nerdy hobbies. I’ve been fortunate enough to be good-looking, in shape, and confident/high value in most contexts even before game.

    What I’ve noticed is: how a nerd girl reacts depends a lot on her level of confidence.

    Low confidence (and generally low HB rating): they ignore me totally. But it feels like they’re consciously ignoring me. They act stifled and miserable.
    Medium confidence: they act a bit starstruck, moon at me a bit, then decide they don’t have a chance and move on.
    Higher confidence (I don’t see many very high-confidence girls among this set, but some seem reasonably well-adjusted): directly engage me. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel sometimes. As long as I’m the AMOG, of course, there’s always someone cooler in this or that situation. Generally, though, progress is seriously hampered by the logistics/social environment, where the men assume any sexual flavor to a conversation constitutes assault, or where most of the girls in the group are married/in a relationship with one of the guys there.

  • quixotic

    @Culum Struan

    Dude you know whats up:)

    Your points are very good

    1. Usually at this bar I am making out with a girl in the bar within 1-2 hours and say “lets go back to my place” they agree no objection and we go straight to my place to bang. Frankly i probably panicked because she is so hot lol. Like I didnt act as entitled a i normally do (normally i go for a kiss without asking and always get a warm reception. The kiss reject 2 weeks ago with her made me think “i need to warm her up more so when i go for a kiss again she WANTS it”). Possible this was limiting belief issue (shes too hot to agree to go straight to my place type shit?). I frankly have no idea why i said lets get food i wasnt hungry. I think it was because i thought a venue change would be good (and it was, she was way more into the energy/me at 2nd bar). But your point is well taken as i drove home i thought about that detail alot. I should never have mentioned food lol.

    2. Very good point. I should have whipped it out that trick really works wonders lol like a lot of chicks who are getting ASD will shut up and start sucking when you whip it out lol. ARRRRGGGG damn you Calum you are right lol

    Very smart men here with good analysis, this is why I will keep posting FRs

    And i agree, she probably feels angry i didnt find a way past her ASD but fuck it lol who cares (I DO want to learn from this experience to do better next time im in a similar situation, but I dont care if she flakes and i dont see her again because I am outcome independent and its not like shes my only prospect).

    Calum we are on the same page man, my thoughts regarding future meet up were to use a friendly non-sexual text since we already have been physical so no need to be all “damn your so hot i want you etc” lol

    I do want to bang her but I dont normally date chicks with kids (I should tell her that too lol) too much hassle and theres so many fish in the sea you don thave to date single moms – REMEMBER THAT FELLAS LOL.

    Anyways i am strutting today like a pimp and cant stop smiling, my brain is a happy camper.

  • TheMarquis

    Long time but occasional reader of TRM, first time poster.

    Typical married guy, 30s, kids, working on turning blue pill marriage around after taking red pill. I read MMSL Primer which was useful.

    Wife SAHM mostly. She does a bit of consulting but financial responsibility for family is all me plus I paid off tens of thousands of dollars of her credit card debt from her single days when we got married and I found out how much debt she had – blew my life savings on that and her “dream” wedding. We are okay financially – no debt, good lifestyle, but no savings plus my income is unpredictable feast/famine and she isn’t fiscally responsible so that causes plenty of stress (although I’ve held our lifestyle together with no compromises so far).

    Wife objectively lower SMV but we all know how little “objectively” matters (although I have a mild spinal problem which means even though I’m in average shape and can handle daily life she sees me as physically weak on a daily basis because I can’t carry the kids around or lift baggage etc).

    Was never a dead bedrooms thing, but sex infrequent and crappy although she probably initiates as often as I do (although the total is low) and even more often she talks about it but later makes an excuse (usually complains that I have too much stubble to kiss). By “talks” I mean she says during the day “you might get lucky tonight” or “I was going to jump you yesterday”.

    I have cheated on her occasionally on business trips and get plenty of IOIs from other women. Our living circumstances and social life means it is very hard for her to see me in situations that inspire dread (I do once in a while get her friends giving me IOIs but she doesn’t seem to notice).

    It’s slow but progress is being made. Sex is slowly getting noticeably more frequent – part of the problem is that I’m simply not even used to initiating regularly (the thing with the stubble is a real problem though – she will refuse to even kiss me with it). She’s basically a good woman (within the bounds of AWALT) and a good mother and a good cook. Just volatile and emotional and irresponsible with money – she thanks me for being a great husband and father, then flips out over something etc.

    I am seeing fitness tests better and more often as they happen. I am a lot calmer when facing my wife’s emotions. Long way to go but it’s a weird feeling of actually being calm and not being emotionally affected as opposed to being emotionally affected but making myself stay calm which is where I started.

    I still need to do a lot of work in being non-reactive and not get let my emotions go and get into old blue pill ruts of arguing logically or being too needy (texting her too much, volunteering too much info..chasing her attention etc).

    Where I’m really struggling is in trying to figure out where to add in the comfort. I have always had the occasional comment from her about “you’re so cold” and stuff but occasional.

    Now it is way more frequent and lots of stuff like “You’re so dismissive of my opinions”, “You don’t take me seriously..you laugh at stuff I say..you’re such an asshole – you’re not the man I married” or “I feel like you’re making me report to you for approval of decisions like you’re my boss”.

    Most recently a couple days ago: “I’m beginning to wonder if you’re really a misogynist under the surface” (she repeated this last one three times in an hour when I just ignored her and finally the third time I said something like “Yeah and I’m off to Saudi Arabia to take lessons from the best” – I think although I don’t talk about red pill openly, some of the new values and opinions just come out in conversation anyway and she’s picking up on it). Oh yeah and it drives her nuts when I say “Yes, dear” repeatedly when she’s blabbing about something – she says she “feels like I don’t take her seriously and it’s like I’m patting her on the head dismissively” if I do that)

    Also latest is a major fight to do with something re the kids. The details aren’t important except I took a slightly controversial position (I wasn’t really fixed on it – was just my default) and she flipped out in anger that I didn’t see it her way, like really upset and kept trying to convince me. Then I spoke to a couple of male buddies and for various reasons they convinced me her viewpoint was right, so I changed my view (and it was the right thing for the kids). But now she’s incredibly mad that I listened to them but not to her..she feels unappreciated and undervalued.

    Hell, even my mom is saying things like how I’m cold and don’t listen enough to her (that is to my mom, not my wife) and she can never tell what I’m thinking.

    I think in a lot of these my wife’s just looking for some comfort – to know that I appreciate her and value her?

    And she does (occasionally) give genuine comfort tests (along the lines of “Sometimes I worry that you’ll leave me for another woman” etc) but also lots of fitness tests.

    I’m not sure where to place the balance here. Like I’m obviously doing some stuff right and there’s obviously a frame battle going on.

    But at the same time, she obviously needs SOME comfort and needs to FEEL like she’s being “listened to” and “taken seriously” (not that I actually need to do it, she just needs to feel like it – you can’t be cold and distant all the time).

    I am confused about how to reach that balance – how do I give her a bit of comfort and make her feel like she’s being taken seriously?

    Like for e.g. about a year ago, she developed a mad idea about moving to another state where she likes visiting. Completely impractical for a variety of reasons but she was obsessed with it. I kept laughing at her and dismissing the idea, but it only enraged her for the same reason (in fact that incident was probably the early days of this dynamic but it’s much more common now). Although I didn’t tell her, I actually DID do some serious research and planning for the move she wanted and quickly found that there were even MORE reasons why it was not feasible.

    Several months later (after she’d stopped talking about it), it came out in conversation one day and I mentioned that I had actually done some research at the time and there were X,Y, Z reasons that it was totally impossible. She completely accepted that and seemed almost happy (or at least at peace). She kept saying stuff like “I wish you’d told me this 6 months ago..I just thought you weren’t taking me seriously and laughing at me like I was crazy”.

    The “feel” I got from that exchange was very positive – she deferred to me. That “feel” happens once in a while almost randomly in different situations where I make a statement or explanation and she laps it up like she’s happy to get the guidance and insight. But not often. But I need to know how to hit that state consistently because this is happening a lot more often now.

  • Andy

    “Sometimes I worry that you’ll leave me for another woman”

    I would agree and amplify. Sounds like you’re doing a good job though. lol.

    “But at the same time, she obviously needs SOME comfort and needs to FEEL like she’s being “listened to” and “taken seriously”

    Not that the manosphere needs another meme, but I saw someone talking about “alpha comfort”. There’s no reason you can’t comfort her, it just depends on what place it’s coming from. Like, I view it as how you would comfort your little girl. Forehead kiss, stroke her hair… that sort of thing. My wife kind of turns into a little girl when I do it, like pouty faces and little girl voice… Women. Just don’t say shit like “omg babe, I could never leave you. I love you to little bits. Here, let me send you a Taylor Swift video to cheer you up.”

    “yes dear” does sound kind of shitty. I try to listen if it’s something important. Recently if she’s just running her mouth I’ve been trying to shift the conversation into something more interesting to me… OR I’ll just tell her I need her to be quiet. Nothing wrong with that either.

    All in all… sounds like you get it. :-) My 2 cents.

  • Degenerate

    I should quit anime.

  • SJF

    @TheMarquis
    @Andy

    “Forehead kiss, stroke her hair… that sort of thing.Like, I view it as how you would comfort your little girl. Forehead kiss, stroke her hair… that sort of thing. My wife kind of turns into a little girl when I do it, like pouty faces and little girl voice… “

    I think Andy is right about this and provides the right antidote to this comfort test. @TheMarquis, perhaps a good thing to do would be to bone up on touching and kino. The kind where it is not a prelude to sex. For example: “If a woman lightly puts her hand on your upper arm or elbow and takes it away this means “I am interested, tell me more” or possibly “I support whatever you are saying”. (BluePillProfessor describes kino and touch and its importance at end of Chapter 6 in a section on kino.)

    I’m embarking on learning kino/touch because I didn’t get the memo a long time ago where it is a different level of communication (and covert) that women understand and can speak well. It is going to take some learning and practice on my end. Society and culture has drummed men’s use of the art of touching a woman out of us. So it takes learning on a man’s part if it isn’t already in ones routine and then it takes practicing and calibration. Most of how BluePillProfessor describes kino is in prelude to sex, but it is also important in comfort.

    “Sometimes I worry that you’ll leave me for another woman”

    I would agree and amplify. Sounds like you’re doing a good job though. lol.

    It is a comfort test. Agree and Amplify would be more proper for a shit test.

    It is actually difficult to learn how to pass comfort tests. And TheMarquis is getting more comfort tests because he has been more masterful over passing shit tests.

    I don’t have any good advice except the kino above, but perhaps you can read up and Google “red pill how to respond to a comfort test” and there are lots of links to this. Here is one example:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2z765d/on_getting_too_many_comfort_tests_is_there_such/

  • SJF

    Another with some comments that differentiate comfort and shit tests.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/2wbhg0/comfort_tests/

    (BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR)
    The trick is that a comfort test IS a Shit Test. It is just a more insidious type of Shit Test that requires a different response.

    A Shit test is delivered in a sharp, demanding or unpleasant tone. It is mostly unconscious and she will throw them when she is unsure about you or the relationship to “test” your shit. The proper response is to not be emotionally fazed by her. Agree and Amplify, Ignore, Nuke (draw a hard boundary and stop it at all costs) are the proper responses.

    A Comfort test is often delivered in a pleading, sad, or possibly whining tone. She will throw them when she is unsure of your commitment and needs some comfort. The proper response is to take your wife in you arms warmly and firmly and reassure her that you love her and everything is just fine and dandy.

    (UEMcGillMarried- MRP MODERATOR)
    A shit test is a test of resolve, of leadership. As such she is testing your commitment to frame and confidence in yourself.

    A comfort test is a test of security, and her part in the relationship. As such she is testing your commitment to her and the relationship.

    So a common comfort test maybe “We have nothing in common, why are you with me?”. Or maybe “I can’t believe your attracted to me, I feel like a hippo”.

    As /BluePullProfessor alludes to, the best response is quick and reassuring. But beware of the trap of fixing her emotions. Anymore than a quick in and out, is not letting her deal with them and should be avoided.

  • Andy

    “It is a comfort test. Agree and Amplify would be more proper for a shit test.”

    For me this would work.

    her – “Sometimes I worry that you’ll leave me for another woman”😦

    me – “Oh, that reminds me. I need to introduce you to my new friend Jenny. She’s really looking forward to meeting you.” With a smirk. haha.

    But I appreciate that it might not be congruent to other people’s personalities.

  • Rollo Tomassi

    New Red Pill Forum:
    https://www.trp.red/feed/

    So Morpheus has at long last launched the Red Pill forum I’ve never had the time to do myself. I will be making a PSA post of this coming soon, but for now have a look around here:

    https://www.trp.red/feed/

    I still highly recommend the SoSuave boards, but for more TRM focused discussions this will be my go-to spot.

    Go have a look!

  • Rollo Tomassi

    @Sun, I’d be happy to do a live talk with you guys, but it all depends on my work schedule this month. I’ll be doing a fairly long interview with Alan Roger Currie at the end of March:

    https://twitter.com/AlanRogerCurrie

    Honestly I was a bit hesitant to do this since I know he sells a product, but he is a cool guy so I’m down.

    I’ll be in Vegas on another shoot at the end of March too, but send me an email and we’ll work something out

  • LeeLee

    @TheMarquis — I feel like I can relate to your wife based on what you’ve written here – I also SAHM, am pretty emotionally volatile, harbor irrational dreams, etc.

    While I was reading over what you wrote, I had a bad feeling, almost like anxiety because I couldn’t tell if you loved her or not. I was putting myself in her shoes and I was waiting to find out if you had any positive feelings towards her but it all felt negative, maybe even like you’re disgusted with her.. but you must love her/feel attracted to her somewhat because otherwise your whole post doesn’t make sense?

    My guess is that that is part of the problem. For a woman to shift from Blue Pill to Red Pill in a marriage requires a HUGE loss of power and control for her, and that can be terrifying, and if she feels like you don’t like her even to the point that she worries you’re thinking about leaving her and don’t have her best interests at heart she’s going to fight you.

    You want her to be vulnerable right? Deferential and receptive to you? She’s not going to be vulnerable unless she feels safe with you.. and I don’t mean blue pill safe, like she’s not going to be challenged — but like, she can trust you. you enjoy her. you have integrity. you like her. you’re not going to destroy her.

    I *know* my husband has my best interests at heart and it’s still brutally challenging for me to be submissive sometimes.

    Here’s what helps, and I think this is what was going on with the whole finding out about your secret research thing: It is 1000x easier for me to submit to anything, even something really hard, if my feelings have been validated.

    I really wonder why you kept the research a secret because I could handle having my irrational precious dream shattered if I knew my husband had heard it, understood my feelings, cared about them and taken them seriously. And then if he ultimately decided the answer was no? I could be comfortable with that even if it hurt. If he said, “I understand that this is going to be painful for you” and gave me a hug and then told me why the answer was no.

    What helps is that I want to be submissive to my husband, but really I think all women want to be submissive — *to a man of integrity*. For whatever reason she is probably not convinced you’re a man of integrity. That doesn’t mean you aren’t — just that you have to find a way to show her.

  • Sentient

    Quixotic. Culum

    Quix… Awesome report and enjoy the feeling, let it radiate. You will see so much more opportunity with this feeling.

    Great job on the compliance. Super great job on holding in close when she turned her cheek and waiting! That is a clutch move. Enjoy the feeling of watching her work herself up and knowing what she will do…

    On the pull attempt. Agree with Culum about too much notice. Though when she said she doesnt fuck guys so fast you had an opportunity to a&a or just defuse… Just something like whoa slow down missy, what are you thinking or even just hey im not like that could work. Same situation as when a girl says ill come but ee arent having sex… Etc.

    Handle the objection in the moment and move one step closer. You may need to handle it a bunch of times as you are getting closer.

    I watched the Shift episode recently where Julien pulls a single mom home by baby stepping her objections for an hour. But he is always moving a step closer even though it is frustrating. Watch it.

    So try that the next situation. Overall though it doesnt matter if it takes 1 2 3 or 4 meets if you are having fun…

    Enjoy!

  • Sentient

    Marquis. You were posting over at CH yeah?

    On your situation you are right you are in a major frame battle. You are winning but with brute force. Time to start winning with style…

    Validate her feelings by giving your approval on a lot of little trivial things.

    She : blah blah blah…

    You: yeah thats a good idea. Do it. Good job.

    And throw in the occasional random approval..

    You: hey that thing you (made, did, cleaned, set up etc.) last week was really (good, tasty, whatever). Nice work. Appreciate it.

    AND then move the fuck on… Out of the room.

    Also remember to lead you have to lead. Dont just be silent, tell her. If you need more time just frame it.

    You: interesting idea. I need to think about it some more. Let you know.

    You can also throw in some “what do you think” BUT only from a frame of you are foing to decide but will hear her. NOT that you are lookimg for her decision. Like you would do at work with a subordinate…

    YOU: hmmmm. Thats interesting. What do you think? Hmmm. Yeah. Let me think about it.

    And have some fun. Remember you need to lead her here as well, change her mood not her mind and all… Much easier for her to defer to you when you are leading and she is having fun…

  • hank holiday

    @bromeo, rollo, kfg

    Interesting rating on the gamer girl. For me she’s a 6 if I’m being very generous. The amount of makeup she has caked on is sickening. Can’t say I agree with kfg’s assessment of her “skill”. I think she’d actually be more attractive with less on. But that’s just me.

    Cute for me is a super feminine, almost childlike woman. They are often a little ditsy. The gamer girl for me isn’t cute, she’s just trying to be hot.

    Is there a list of pictures of girls that guys on here could rate? I’ve found that my opinions of girls tend to be 1-3 points different than most guys here. It would be nice to see what you guys think so I could translate when reading/writing FRs.

  • hank holiday

    @yareally

    that episode with that tolki girl was what introduced me to rp, lol. Actually saw the guy doing a benefit show on twitch, then he vanished. wondered what happened to the guy, then read up on his story on rp on reddit.

  • having a bad day

    @theMarquis

    still married, eh?…good job!…lol…

    Wife objectively lower SMV but we all know how little “objectively” matters (although I have a mild spinal problem which means even though I’m in average shape and can handle daily life she sees me as physically weak on a daily basis because I can’t carry the kids around or lift baggage etc).

    that shouldn’t matter if you are socially dominant…

    Was never a dead bedrooms thing, but sex infrequent and crappy although she probably initiates as often as I do (although the total is low)

    do you want more?…if so, YOU have to initiate…

    and even more often she talks about it but later makes an excuse (usually complains that I have too much stubble to kiss). By “talks” I mean she says during the day “you might get lucky tonight” or “I was going to jump you yesterday”.

    this is the married equivalent to ‘beta bait’…also shit tests…

    Our living circumstances and social life means it is very hard for her to see me in situations that inspire dread (I do once in a while get her friends giving me IOIs but she doesn’t seem to notice).

    sooo, you’ll have to put the dread into her head by inference…lol…’hey, [girl at work] brought me a muffin yesterday… that was so cool…it really hit the spot. i love [favorite muffin]…’ [change subject = talk about work]…

    that’s the basic pattern. improv to apply it…lol…

    It’s slow but progress is being made. Sex is slowly getting noticeably more frequent –

    good job!…

    part of the problem is that I’m simply not even used to initiating regularly (the thing with the stubble is a real problem though – she will refuse to even kiss me with it).

    would she NOT kiss brad pitt if he had stubble?…lol…= shit test… answer is agree and amplify…= ‘you’re right. it is kind of scratchy… i’ll just have to grow it out til it hits my knees…then it will be nice and soft…’ OR you can infer dread…’well, i like it… the girls at the coffee shop say it makes me look ‘outdoorsy’…they are always trying to touch it…’ [change subject]

    i will also point out that you should be trying to spot these shit tests and just note them/write them down even if you aren’t handling them yet… bc they ARE her rolodex…(can’t remember if i recommended doing that before or not…) and if you really want to master marriage, you need to know what to expect…lol…

    She’s basically a good woman (within the bounds of AWALT) and a good mother and a good cook. Just volatile and emotional and irresponsible with money – she thanks me for being a great husband and father, then flips out over something etc.

    and you can tell these are shit tests?…

    it just sounds like you are right on the edge of alpha…and you are pinging both sets of circuits (alpha/beta) so she can’t get a lock on what to feel is right about you…

    Where I’m really struggling is in trying to figure out where to add in the comfort.

    don’t…until she is constantly initiating sex every night…bc until that is happening, she really doesn’t worry about you leaving her (bc that’s a girl’s last/best value to offer)…and what may look like comfort tests can actually be shit tests…or more accurately beta bait…bc they get you to reassure her, without her needing to use her last/best…

    Now it is way more frequent and lots of stuff like “You’re so dismissive of my opinions”, “You don’t take me seriously..you laugh at stuff I say..you’re such an asshole – you’re not the man I married” or “I feel like you’re making me report to you for approval of decisions like you’re my boss”.

    shit tests all…if fact i don’t think i saw anything but…in your whole comment…

    And she does (occasionally) give genuine comfort tests (along the lines of “Sometimes I worry that you’ll leave me for another woman” etc) but also lots of fitness tests

    you: are there other girls that can give better bjs?…[like you never thought of it before…lol]

    you: you mean Sindee?…(notice the spelling…lol)…nah, she’s got a bf… [change subject]

    etc…lol…the point is that these are shit tests…unless she really does think you will leave, but then you know that’s true bc…SEX…lol…until she is sexing you up as a ‘competitive advantage’ against other girls, treat them like shit tests…

    if there is any doubt, there is no doubt…lol…

    and it wouldn’t hurt you to mention that you really do like sex…lol…

    her: you might get lucky tonight…
    you: i love sex… [change subject] (note – you don’t have to say ‘with you’…lol)

    I’m not sure where to place the balance here.

    right now there seems to be too much ‘balance’…lol…stop pinging her beta ‘non-alpha’ circuits and handle those shit tests…and see what happens…

    The “feel” I got from that exchange was very positive – she deferred to me.

    that’s the goal…and try to notice what happened right before… bc this will usually be the result when you ‘win’ the shit test…lol…

    ps. you can do Andy’s ‘head kiss’ but only AFTER she gives you that feeling that she ‘deferred’…that’s the ‘reward’ for her compliance/submission…

    also, +1 on Sentient’s advice…

    good luck!

  • quixotic

    @Sentient

    Thanks man:)

    I will definitely look for that vid, i just downloaded 6 shift videos (the one Yareally posted on this article up thread, check out the youtube user/poster he has a bunch of shift videos) i think one of them is the one you are talking about.

  • scribblerg

    @Rollo – One could just substitute the tech startup scene for the gamer scene – in fact, many of the guys are gamers. There are a few more alpha male types around than the typical Warcraft Group Meetup but that’s about it.

    You should see how these women dress for “work” in these settings and how the beta chodes just code harder, thinking that one of them will fuck them for being the best engineer ever! Lol, perfect environment for me as that’s where I roll all the time any way.

    @Ya – Great points on not fucking up our social environment by being the lech while we are learning. I’m on the verge of doing that at the cafe I often work at. Clubs/bars are far more permissive and anonymous environments, with far more chances. It also pre-selects for women who are more likely DTF.

    Sadly, I’m sick and not up for gaming tonight – fever and shit. Am planning on going out solo tomorrow night for maximum effect, at a bar where I know nobody. Big sports bar scene that will have the UFC fight on that I want to see, but is also jam packed with hotties, hopefully I’ll feel better.

    Realized my wing is a liability. He gets jealous of my ability to open and alpha dog/DHV and becomes competitive. And then does passive aggressive shit. He also refuses to actually learn any game via vids or courses etc, just does his own thing. He’s miscalibrating most of the time and actually has fucked up several sets I’ve opened as a result. I may sarge with him from time to time but now realize that he’s a liability. Also realized that the argument we had while out was cuz he was trying to dominate me to compensate for his insecure bullshit and he fucked up our vibe all night as a result.

    Tomorrow night will be fun. I’ve been cramming Mystery Method and tried out some of it already to great effect. I have no need of a wing (career as a sales guy is a real asset in term of opening fearlessly – and now i know what to do when I do) and in fact plan on befriending some guys there so I’m not stalker pre-selected. But even then, being alone can be DHV if I see it that way. I plan on burning the place down – get laid or thrown out, lol. But tonight it’s rest and get rid of this damn cold.

    Great stuff, Ya, just amazing.

  • scray

    @ya@all

    “When guys try to learn game by staying in their comfort zone environment, especially if they’re extremely socially awkward and/or in extremely socially awkward (or sexually stunted) environments/social circles, they simply won’t be able to rack up the amount of experience (including making mistakes) as fast as they could in a nightclub venue or high-traffic daygame environment and they will VERY likely creep out parts of their social circles and probably end up as outcasts from that environment (”

    goddammit you guys really have no clue how much value Yareally adds here. and i’m not saying that to be a dick. i’m just saying that because, as I go on and explore and grow as a PUA, the more I can just go back to shit Ya writes — even in like the FR — and I can pick it up, and now I’m advanced enough to really DO SOMETHING with it.

    but this concept here is so important.

    JUST GET OUT THERE.

    for ex, scribbler, it’s awesome you have a cafe environment where you sort of talk with the hotties, but at the same time, don’t turn it into a safe space where you’re like….+1 (out of 100) sexual intensity scribbler without any embarrassment or ego death. that’s just creating another comfort zone.

    like, honestly BE A LITTLE UNCALIBRATED. Get SUPER IN TOUCH with that id and then just SAY WHATEVER you feel.

    there’s a louie ck skit where he’s like ‘men usually think disgusting things like ‘i want to fuck your face.” try saying that in the middle of a convo. no i’m serious.

    and don’t think i haven’t said shit like that in the middle of convos with chicks i barely know.

    ‘do you do anal?’
    ‘i just want to annihilate that pussy’
    etc.

    said all of that shit to varying degrees of success and failure lol

    at first you’ll sound like an idiot, but pretty soon you will BECOME YOURSELF….walking, talking version of who you really are…

    strong stuff.

    the main ability you need to have out there is the ability to HANDLE SHIT.
    whatever comes your way, you can take it. and that doesn’t mean like….GETTING SHIT ON….it means HANDLING IT. Making sure you never put out the impression that YOU think that YOU are LESS THAN.

    but you can’t really know what I’m talking about until you SEE FOR YOURSELF when a man’s CHARACTER (game/whatever the fuck) DOMINATES another man’s EXTERNALS…..or better yet, if you’re like me, EXPERIENCE IT

    it’s like

    I have those reference experiences FOREVER.

  • Anonymous Reader

    Andy
    Also, drinking too much again.

    It’s really easy to do. Try writing down exactly what you drink in a given 24 hour period, like someone else is going to read it. That can make you pause. Or spend just an hour in a bar drinking water and noting how stupid drunks are.

    Got nothing against alcohol per se, mind you. Just don’t want anyone here drinking too much of it, that’s all.

    On the bright side I do think I am making progress. Internally I don’t feel that much different but people are reacting to me differently.

    Your subcomms surely have improved. I’ve had the same experience recently.

  • rugby11

    I am so thankful for this place of refuge.

  • Water Cannon Boy

    “How does this dynamic work out for guys in more traditionally female spaces? For example there are a few boys at my girls dance class. Boys there only signed up for hip/hop.

    @Pinelero
    Specifically for the guys there for hip hop, it works in their favor that they’re actually there for their own goals instead of there to meet women. Like the guy in the club or bar who comes across as he’ll meet up with somebody if he finds one but it’s secondary to his own good time out. He’s go other things going on in his world. Girls get intrigued. But a guy in traditional female spaces doesn’t work like females in male spaces. For dancing it could, but the same alpha indicators apply. May work for any fat girls or awkward girls who are super self conscious in typical single social settings to be beta.
    And a guy will need to be somewhat good at dancing.
    But there’s not too many typical female spaces outside of dancing that a man will gain points just for being there. It’s like the myth of doing housework makes a man sexy or increases his chances for sex. It doesn’t. Just crap women will tell you.
    In fact they may tell you that a man in a typical female space makes him more attractive because of the not insecure crap, but I’d say that’s just a line because the women there in that typical female space don’t have anything to do where they would get attention from men. You become an orbiter.

  • Sentient

    Good God…. leelee go home to your man of integrity…. because to a woman integrity means only what it feels like in the moment. Whatever that is.

    There is no there there..

    And BOTH hands on the keyboard at all times!

  • Klem

    @Quixotic
    Nice FR dude!

    Sounds like you ran into many of the problems I used to run into lol

    A few random points :
    – She sounds in her 30s. If you yourself are in your 30s too or older, you already start with a handicap to get a quick lay (provider hunting)
    – In my opinion, a girl who dresses super hot for a date = big shit test, like she is unconsciously thinking “he is gonna slobber all over me like he’s never seen a hot girl before?”. The tighter the dress, the less you should acknowledge it lol
    – If you do more day2s, you’ll come to understand that logistics are BIG. You should have a clear plan in mind for how you’ll bring her home. Like where you’ll kiss her, a huge rolodex of answer to her excuses etc. Use old-school techniques like false time constraints “come up for 15 mins after I call you a Uber, I gotta get up early tomorrow”, give her a reason to come up (depending on your convo it can be alcohol, movies weed etc.)
    – Also, I know it’s difficult since you find her hot, but the less she complies to you, the less make out she gets. Girls love making out become it’s validation+good feelings minus the ASD
    You gotta keep the sexual tension unresolved, so that there is always a part of her brains that is like “does he really like me? I’m not 100% sure” Once she is sure, then you’re no longer a puzzle to solve, it’s not fun anymore, you are just like 99% of all the guys she ever met since she is 15.

    It took me a while to understand that this concept is actually at the core of girl’s sexuality. Like when she is sure she “has” you, doesn’t matter if you are Brad Pitt, you are not exciting anymore. This translate to all your interactions with girls, from texting to opening to day2s.

    But anyway, it was cool reading your FR, hope there will be others!

Speak your mind

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 12,780 other followers

%d bloggers like this: