Always Default to Game

default_game

In the last comment section a very old Game conundrum got reheated. It’s the old confusion on when to “run” Game on a woman and when not to. This concern used to be debated quite a bit in my early days at SoSuave. Occasionally it comes up now and then with guys who’re new to the Red Pill and, still in the process of disconnecting their Blue Pill ideals, want to know when it’s appropriate to use their new Game superpowers for good.

It’s kind of good to revisit the fundamentals; it gives you a better perspective on how you came to a more advanced idea so I’ll get a little remedial here. Essentially the idea guys were talking about then was how Game was something they were turning on or off as situations dictated. Guys would come up with various hypothetical or actual situations where they were unsure if using Game was appropriate. Sometimes these were ethical dilemmas, other times it was just a want for avoiding bad consequences.

  • Should I use Game on the woman at the office?
  • Should I use Game on the fat chick I honestly have no interest in?
  • I find myself using Game on my overbearing Mother and it works, should I feel bad?
  • When I apply Game / Red Pill aware practices in other areas of my life I find I’m better able to enjoy the results I want, is this manipulative?

These are a few of the more common ones, but there are many others. However, the base assumption in all of these is that Game is an act and separate from that individual’s personality or “who he really is”. While I might advise against actively, overtly “gaming” women in your workplace, the Frame you establish by applying Red Pill awareness practices (i.e. Game) will be invaluable to you.

Every time I’ve dealt with this question/presumption it’s usually the case that the guy asking about the situation is still thinking in the same Blue Pill mindset he’s been conditioned to, but has more or less accepted the realities of Red Pill awareness. He may have even killed the Beta for the better part, but the process of changing one’s Blue Pill programming, to say nothing about placing himself as his own mental point of origin is a time consuming one.

The answer is a very simple one: Always default to Game.

Law 14
Pose as a Friend, Work as a Spy

Knowing about your rival is critical. Use spies to gather valuable information that will keep you a step ahead. Better still: Play the spy yourself. In polite social encounters, learn to probe. Ask indirect questions to get people to reveal their weaknesses and intentions. There is no occasion that is not an opportunity for artful spying.

Although this Law is really directed towards one’s power rivals it is also an apt illustration of how Game is applicable in situations that you may have no real intimate interests in. In this instance that artful spying takes the form of learning to read a particular woman even when you have (or wisely shouldn’t have) no real intimate interest in her.

There was (is?) a school of Game thought that a guy new to it should apply it with “less than optimal” women in order to perfect the practice. Furthermore, for the newly Red Pill aware, it’s a relatively low investment way to evaluate proof of concept and build upon it. For as much as I’d like newly aware guys to be able to go from zero to sixty with Game, I can see the logic in this.

I say that with a caveat though; you’ve still got to consider the complications and attachments that will result from your Game actions. Not just this, you even need to be at least peripherally conscious of how your Frame control, Command PresenceAmused Mastery, etc. will impact non-intimate women’s disposition and attachment to you. Bear in mind that most men, Beta men, don’t leave the mental imprint on women that a Red Pill aware, self-MPO man does, to say nothing of a more Alpha man.

Case in point: In my line of work (liquor and gaming) there are many times when I’m working a promo with my girls, or I’m meeting random women I’ve never met before, where I have to make a mental effort to be self-conscious of how I interact with them. It’s sort of the reverse situation to constantly making an effort to stay in Frame to effect Game; it’s become such a part of my nature and personality now that I default to Game.

In fact it’s not even Game to me anymore, it’s just who I am, and particularly when I’m ‘on’ and I need to interact in a social context. It flows so naturally for me I sometimes have to make an effort to dial it back when I see IOIs or I get kino from the women working for me. When women are hitting me up to come party with them after my setup time is through, that’s a reminder that I’m making an impression on them I don’t really want to follow up on.

From Mental Point of Origin:

Your mental point of origin is really your own internalized understanding about how you yourself fit into your own understanding of Frame.

If Frame is the dominant narrative of a relationship (not limited to just romantic relations), your mental point of origin is the import and priority to which you give to the people and/or ideas involved in that relationship. It is the first thought you have when considering any particular of a relationship, and it’s often so ingrained in us that it becomes an autonomous mental process.

From Recursive Game:

While it is of course vital for a man to internalize the various fundamental truths about the nature of women (hypergamy, solipsism, Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks, love based on opportunism, etc.), these fundaments need to become an ambient condition for you in your dealings. This understanding needs to become an internal – under the surface – part of your interactions with women.

Too many guys think that all of this requires some endless capacity to psychologically micromanage every aspect of their interactions, not just with the women they become (or potentially become) intimate with, but also women they work with (or for), their mothers, sisters or daughters. A common reason men initially reject the practice (not necessarily the concept) of Game is due to some imagined expectation that they’ll need to cognitively account for every variable a woman may or may not be subjecting him or herself to.

When you think of Game as some act you put on or some cognitive fencing match between you and a woman it’s easy to believe it’s just too exhausting. That’s when one of two things usually happen; Game-awareness either sinks in and becomes part of his personality, or he relaxes and/or abandons what he’s learned of Game.

And from Artificial Joy:

Once this awareness is internalized and becomes a part of a Man’s personality there is no vigilance, just awareness. There is a subconscious understanding of the order of things from a red pill perspective, but that doesn’t mean I suspect the female bank teller I’m making a deposit with is ready to rob me blind the moment I turn to walk out the door.

Neil Strauss hinted at ‘social robots’ in The Game; guys who were nothing but Game all the time and were unable to make real emotional connections. I would argue just the opposite. The real danger inherent in Game and Red Pill awareness is a man using it to fulfill his former blue pill idealisms – that does require a constant effort.

A healthy red pill awareness requires not only a Man’s reassessment and recreation of himself, but also that he abandon his former blue pill paradigm and learn to live in a new, positive, red pill paradigm. It seems like a daunting task when you first come to terms with it, but ultimately your awareness becomes an internalized part of who you are. You can allow that to consume you with a paranoia  rooted in your former blue pill frame, or you can learn to create hope in a new system – one that you not only have more control over, but one that requires you to assume that control.

I’ve quoted these here to give you a better feel for what I mean when I say always default to Game. With that comes a practiced learning and internalization process of Red Pill awareness and a confirmation of its fundamentals. Once your personality becomes one that defaults to Game you’ll discover that Game is not just for picking up women. I’ve personally used Red Pill awareness and Game practices to close business deals, convince people with money to go with my creative ideas and even get out of a traffic ticket.

So that said, the discussion questions for the weekend (yes, I’m bringing them back) are:

Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?
Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?
Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?
Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?
Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

“Isn’t that what she’s doing now?”

Probably.

“My guess from your descriptions is, the sex you’re getting now is the best she can do. If it’s not enough variety for you she might just not be imaginative or adventurous enough for you. Some people just aren’t creative.”

Am I stuck on an idealized attraction level? Is she actually attracted and I am just stuck trying to get her to show attraction based off how I think it should look?

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

“Basically, it is even more critical that husbands make the effort and get what they want (even if it ends up being without their wives).” Yeah I mean I guess you could get to a point where you’re married to a 40 something year old woman and knowing that fucking 24 year olds won’t improve your base happiness? As I’ve gotten older I have come to appreciate experiences rather than “stuff”. I understand that fucking 24 year olds won’t make me happier, but like @CaveClown says… I just don’t get this argument that eating a filet mignon every day is… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

Lol if you’re gonna go the hedonic treadmill route, you need to understand that fucking a wide variety of women will itself become a hedonic treadmill. Becoming accustomed to ‘highs’ you can’t safely or consistently or preservingly replicate is perilous. So three things are important for figuring out how to have a happy, fulfilled life: 1. Learn what you actually want. 2. Learn to be present to the moment and consistently enjoy what it offers you; learn that everything is bounty. 3. Don’t spike the hedonic treadmill too hard or too often. Pace your pleasures. Above all, don’t expect control… Read more »

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ Andy When two or more people are talking and seem to be having a decent conversation is it rude to just go up mid sentence and introduce yourself? One thing I notice my wife does is she’ll listen in on people’s conversations and just kind of interject or laugh at something they say and then interject. Great question! It’s one I had been having trouble with. Old rules: You wait for a break in the convo and people would look to you to introduce yourself. New rules: You insert yourself appropriately into the convo with a one-word comment like… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

A theory I have about that ‘feeling happy whether or not you’re feeling pleasure’ thing is that people who subconsciously perceive that they are high status fall into this state naturally. And people who subconsciously perceive they are low-status are very necessitous of pleasure or validation to feel ‘happy.’ I also think that’s the origin of a lot of alpha vs. beta behavior.

So root out core shame, the things that make you feel worthless. MPO FTW.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

@ Andy

Pro tip: If you want to hijack the convo and demonstrate value, raise your brows and stare at the person talking.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

“Am I stuck on an idealized attraction level? Is she actually attracted and I am just stuck trying to get her to show attraction based off how I think it should look?”

She’s probably genuinely attracted. Attraction is cheap though, you’re really idealizing it. Like, you’re expecting the heavens to open and tell you what a good boy you are when your wife displays attraction to you? You’re expecting to have some peak experience where you finally feel like your decisions and life are validated, that they mean something?

Nah. Attraction means she sucks your dick good.

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

“Lol if you’re gonna go the hedonic treadmill route, you need to understand that fucking a wide variety of women will itself become a hedonic treadmill.” I get that. I’m just saying why deny yourself the variety? If I’ve eaten different meals my whole life and I’ve found that filet mignon is absolutely the best. That doesn’t mean I would eat filet mignon every day. It’s those little highs from different experiences that add to your life. IMO. I get that to some people food just doesn’t mean anything to them, so eating filet every day is perfectly fine. Then… Read more »

Dark Triad Man
7 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Hedonistic treadmilling is fine.

Wear protection.

Protect your assets.

Beware of stalkers.

Regards,

Ivan

http://www.darktriadman.com

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@asd Not sure how good you are with social cues, so maybe the comment I wrote earlier about this isn’t relevant to you. I’d focus on some body language things to see if the people are having a conversation they don’t want interrupted or not. Intense eye contact, lowering of voices, and strong mirroring of body language can indicate they’re trying to go somewhere with the convo. Off-the-cuff comments and body language indicate they’re just socializing for the hell of it, and injecting yourself in will be easy. Of course, all this is just logistics. An alpha guy with his… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

Forge,

Attraction doesn’t feel cheap to me…scarcity and core shame, lol.

You’re right, I do expect her to make me feel different, better, worthy even?

When all I should expect is her body…

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Andy Yup, if you want variety in women you should have it. I wasn’t trying to imply that you shouldn’t. You should find out what you actually want. It’s just that, if you aren’t happy with yourself now, you probably won’t be happy with yourself plus lots of women in the long run. Your insight that experiences matter more than stuff is crucial. But a lot of people treat experiences like stuff – something to be acquired and then held on to – rather than something spontaneous. With mastery, you can create a fertile environment for good and diverse experiences.… Read more »

lh
lh
7 years ago

Cave: Am I stuck on an idealized attraction level? Is she actually attracted and I am just stuck trying to get her to show attraction based off how I think it should look? That’s a really good question (to ask yourself). Since you did leave her already several times she will know what would make you take her back. It could be you sensing something fake about it. But regarding your marriage I think you should ask different questions. As it seems your wife needs a rather high level of Dread. You say she is BPD and you probably read… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Andy

I get that you’re trying to figure out the role of variety with women in your own life. Figuring out what you want isn’t easy, and fucking women on the side isn’t something you just give a go of as a married man – it’s a bit risky if you want to keep your marriage.

It’s not an enviable circumstance, frankly.

Only marry if you’ve already experienced abundance, and so can be sure you’re fine without it.

benfromtexas
benfromtexas
7 years ago
Reply to  Forge the Sky

Good advice on when to get married. Once you’ve experienced abundance then and ONLY then should you make that decision. In LTRs, experiencing abundance enables you to filter the right females to commit to as well.
Through years of trial and error, I’ve now come to a point now where I’m pretty good at filtering females. Experiences with women enable you to “sense” trash. It’s like a Spider-Man sixth sense shit.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Ivan

Lol. Hedonistic treadmilling is fine without attachment to outcome. It needs to be part of an aggressive striving towards creating the reality you want, not an attempt to ‘fix’ anything about yourself.

This is why this is a hard thing to talk about. It’s kinda zen.

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

“Only marry if you’ve already experienced abundance, and so can be sure you’re fine without it.”

Lol, true. But if you married first, then there are very few options other than cheating, divorce, or living with the woulda, coulda, shoulda.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

” Personally I would get tired of eating a filet mignon every day.”

The solution is simple; eat the whole tenderloin.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Cave

“Forge,

Attraction doesn’t feel cheap to me…scarcity and core shame, lol.

You’re right, I do expect her to make me feel different, better, worthy even?

When all I should expect is her body…”

Keep at it, man. I went through something similar. You’ll probably find depths of pain in you that you never knew existed before you’re free of that neediness. But I can tell you the pain does end if you let yourself feel it, and who you are after is who you want to be.

lh
lh
7 years ago

You’ll probably find depths of pain in you that you never knew existed before you’re free of that neediness. But I can tell you the pain does end if you let yourself feel it, and who you are after is who you want to be. Several very good comments from forge. But this is in my opinion the way to go from beta to alpha. All those fears, all the pain, just agree and amplify them. Go were it really hurts, find where it hurts most and try to feel even more pain. It will set you free. The real… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

Lh,

I think what I’m picking up on is her insecurities. Meaning, I think she’ll do just about anything to not be alone, except you know anal, which makes me think the genuine attraction is not there.

I mean, we’re talking about a girl that made up fake childhood sex abuse stories, and got a shrink to back her up, to get out of sex and/or divorce.

I’m not sure I agree that I could pull other women, but thank you.

It’s like I need to hit rock bottom?

scribblerg
scribblerg
7 years ago

Date with age appropriate woman tonight – the one I mentioned who doesn’t wear yoga pants, has a rock hard body, looks like a 38 yr old former HB9. She was so damn traditional and feminine and the opposite of every cranky old skank in my age bracket that I’m trying her out. So, yes, I’m now a fucking unicorn hunter too – you guys are ruining me. Field report to follow – I’m not trying to fuck her tonight, and that leaves me wondering what I am trying to do? The new MPO tells me my job tonight is… Read more »

Striver
Striver
7 years ago

There is a time when you don’t want to use Game. When the stakes are high and the person you are dealing with has better Game than you. Then you need to be aware of that and avoid the use of Game. I agree all men should be aware of Game, that it exists, the reality of it. That does not mean that all men will become Game Jedi masters or whatever. It is a tool, and some will master it, some will just muddle through. Probably all men can benefit from 101 level pointers, but they will not be… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

Pain…

I’m digging it up like a fucking mad man, hence my endless posts here, lol.

I’m done feeling this way, that beta motherfucker gonna die.

I’ve never quit anything in my life

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“One of the awkward but nice benefits of that is I don’t really know what’s coming next or how I’ll handle it or even see it. It’s like seeing the world with fresh eyes.”

Be careful, that shit’ll keep you alive.

newlyaloof
7 years ago

@Striver, please change your handle to Cipher. That’s the negative Matrix character you’d be. You can beat your ex by being successful and having girlfriends yonger and hotter than she is.

lh
lh
7 years ago

Not rock bottom. But living alone for some time would probably help you recovering. My 7 year LTR didn’t want anal too and was always afraid I’d just do it. I didn’t back then (but never formally accepted that boundary) because her pussy offered me all I wanted (and I still don’t like anal that much). But looking back with all I know now I think I should have fucked her other hole. Every boundary a women tries to build and is talking about is just a kind hint what one could do for the next level of attraction… I… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“Game sometimes is thrown around like that stupid Matrix movie, that if you only master it, you’ll be dodging bullets.”

NEXT!

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

I get that you’re trying to figure out the role of variety with women in your own life. Figuring out what you want isn’t easy, and fucking women on the side isn’t something you just give a go of as a married man – it’s a bit risky if you want to keep your marriage. @Forge I’m not trying to figure it out. I already know. I also know that I won’t derive happiness from any woman. Wife or not. Filet Mignon or not. “The solution is simple; eat the whole tenderloin.” @kfg I fully intend to. Surf and turf… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@ Andy That Forge the Sky dude is pretty darn sharp when it comes to stuff like the hedonic thermostat thingy dingy thing. He got it right @ 10:50 above on the three key points of how to manage happiness. I’ll let you in on a secret, Forge, ScribblerG and I have been colluding on the side via email to take our lives to a higher level. To be more satisfied, more self confident and more masterful in our relationships with others. Hey it’s working for me. But back to the harmonic or hedonic thing. You can’t look to someone… Read more »

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

You can’t look to someone else’s script to copy for your own. You need to know yourself, your mission and goals.

I seem to remember someone telling me that I settled.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@lh

“All those fears, all the pain, just agree and amplify them. Go were it really hurts, find where it hurts most and try to feel even more pain. It will set you free. The real difficulty is probably finding all the relevant hurts in you, some may be very very old.”

That is exactly how I did it. Be vigilant for unexplained pain, then grab onto it and don’t let it go till you’re screaming.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“You can’t look to someone else’s script to copy for your own.”

That is the straight road to a life of quiet desperation.

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

Pain…

I’m digging it up like a fucking mad man, hence my endless posts here, lol.

I’m done feeling this way, that beta motherfucker gonna die.

I’ve never quit anything in my life”

That’s a comment I left some months ago almost verbatim.

theasdgamer
7 years ago

I’m not trying to fuck her tonight, and that leaves me wondering what I am trying to do?

You’re qualifying her for a LTR.

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

@SJF Look, here’s my problem… I know that I won’t die fulfilled fucking one woman the rest of my life. But I want to believe that it’s possible. You seem to have figured out that it is possible (for you.) So, for you it’s possible. So it is possible. How the fuck is it possible? I want a straight fucking answer. Like what the fuck is it? lol. To others I’m just a lucky fool. I want to fuck my wife over a 24 year old girl anyday. I don’t think you’re a lucky fool at all. It sounds to… Read more »

Dark Triad Man
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

I have to break in here and add that Mr. Tomassi is absolutely right. There are sublime and inestimable pleasures with having spent your younger years driving a globally distributed harem through your bed and I won’t knock it for younger men who haven’t yet felt on top of the world with sexual conquests. But in the end, it’s about knowing you’ve had it and you don’t have regrets of not having it. And being eventually stable and chasing after other things that also bring power, joy, illumination and deep incredible satisfaction in life is part of the larger goal… Read more »

benfromtexas
benfromtexas
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Good point Rollo. You can tell when you write it’s from satisfaction. Tosh writes from a perspective of contempt or anger. He sometimes makes good points, but it seems there’s always an anger undertow to his writings.

keyser Soze
keyser Soze
7 years ago

Rollo,
“Once you’ve internalized Red Pill awareness, once its applications become part of who you are – you wont have to.”

The value of a education is not the learning of many facts but the training of the mind to think
Albert Einstein

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

Holy shit Glenn, never thought I’d see the day!

comment image

Rock on man.

cheupez
7 years ago

“I want to fuck my wife over a 24 year old girl any day. It is inscrutable how that happens 27 years after I met her.” Well, well. I hear something new every day, but this one beats anything I have heard this year. And I hear a lot of stuff I can tell you that.

Do men have a hamster too?

IAS
IAS
7 years ago

@ Andy : For all the AWALT and even AMALT stuff, there are outliers and individual personality has to count at least for something. Just because SJF or I can be happier with 1 woman doesn’t mean you can. And that is already assuming we (me / SJF) are not just deluding ourselves in thinking this (I very well may be given that I don’t have more experience, he knows better). For the food analogy I can very reliably tell you I’d be happy eating one of my favorite foods every single day if it wouldn’t mess up my health… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

“For the food analogy I can very reliably tell you I’d be happy eating one of my favorite foods every single day if it wouldn’t mess up my health (but it does, so…). But that may be because I don’t care that much about food in the first place.” I know i started the food analogy on this thread, but it really has nothing to do with actual food! I’ll rephrase… Fuck the same pussy for the rest of my life, what was I thinking! Better? lol Either I did not pick a woman I could be faithful to, or… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@Forge Brother, you are dropping some choice info here today. Some things are difficult to explain though. I get that and cosign 100%. Guys reading the comments, that are NOT married yet, read Forge’s words and take heed. Forge, Glenn and of course SJF – great stuff fellas. I read confusion in some of the comments re: abundance, fucking your wife forever..lol..and ” how do you know?”… I see a whole lotta Feelllzzz represented. Nothing wrong with feeellzzz sometimes, but be aware of overcomplicating basic shit. Forge alluded to experiencing things as opposed to collecting experiences like ” stuff “.… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@Rollo, ” Now look at a guy like Roosh. He’s banged far more women than I have, by all accounts in the hundreds, and after all that what is it he’s looking for now? What’s frustrating him the most? That he can’t find a woman whom he’d like to consistently bang for the rest of his life. After countless lays he wants exactly what I’ve had for 20 years now – children, a family, a woman who respects him as an Alpha lover, father, husband, patriarch of the family, etc.” A lot of guys seem to have a problem with… Read more »

Greek Freak
Greek Freak
7 years ago

@YaReally Hey, you. I’ve been in depression for 3 years after my red-pill hit me from all corners and aspects of my life. My dreams were slowly shattered like a domino one after another and I couldn’t muster up the courage to leave my room for a good 2 years. A lot of things before my first red pill were building up the depression from within until it just ruptured and I was done/10 with life. What you wrote about depression in your archive: http://yareallyarchive.com/2012/9/#comment-heartiste-367897 really hit me like a ton of bricks. I have to thank you from the… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

“Married guys except Cave ( Cave, my man, has some other-type things going on)”

lol

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Greek Freak, one step at a time, sir. Any improvement in your situation, of any sort, that’s a win. Winning football teams have higher testosterone, we like winning. Confirm your wins to yourself. Don’t catastrophize over backsliding (don’t catastrophize at all, but that’s easy to say and hard to do sometimes), it’s just an event, don’t blow it all up out of proportion, don’t dwell or ruminate on it, don’t rub your own face in it. Make a little plan, execute it, then evaluate it. To someone truly depressed this seems insurmountable, I got that. So let’s pick a small,… Read more »

Stingray
7 years ago

but either will only ever be a complement to my life and what I’m doing, never the focus of it.

I have a question about oneitis. It seems that any married man would have oneitis for the simple fact that he is married. It doesn’t have to be debilitating, as I know it can become, but more simple because of what Rollo describes here.

Or is it that oneitis, by its definition, is debilitating and what Rollo describes here is something else?

Stingray
7 years ago

Women don’t want to be put on a pedestal, not really, not inside. Unless maybe it’s to give a man they like a chance to peek up their skirt. They want to be possessed by a man they are attracted to, not idolized by any man.

1000 times, yes.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@Anonymous Reader Good points re:depression. It’s a tough one to rectify. ” Women don’t want to be put on a pedestal, not really, not inside. Unless maybe it’s to give a man they like a chance to peek up their skirt. They want to be possessed by a man they are attracted to, not idolized by any man. ” Hear, hear. I don’t even get miffed by chicks that try to come across as if they require being placed upon a pedestal. It’s a test. Put them on a pedestal at your own risk. A majority of females do indeed… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@Stingray ONEitis is debilitating. Thinking that another person is the only “one” for you has a disastrous effect, especially for men. I love my wife and plan to be with her until death do us part. I am not, however, under any illusions that she is in any way ” the one ” or a ” soul-mate “. It is possible ( but unlikely ) that I could go home tonight and find all of my belongings on the lawn and the locks changed Lol… I would be bummed, but not destroyed. I’m with her, and she with me, by… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

ONEitis is debilitating. Thinking that another person is the only “one” for you has a disastrous effect, especially for men.

Cosign x1,000. I have done that exactly once. It was bad for both of us in fairly short order (pedestalization) but probably did more damage to me. Not. Ever. Again.

Oneitis is a luxury only women can afford.

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

“Understand that women have a different concept of ” interesting.””

A man with a philosophy is boooooring.

A man with scars, a rifle, a de Havilland Moth and another girl is interesting.

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

kfg, One thing about having daughters is that I’ve honed my ability to explain things to females without ” losing ” them in the process. It’s a generalization, but a lot of women get information overload very quickly and lose interest. There’s a different way of communicating with them that’s almost the opposite of communicating with a man. That shit’s fascinating. I have old photos from my racing days. My girls love any pic where the front wheels are 5 feet off the ground and the entire bottom of the car is visible. When they ask me to tell them… Read more »

Anonymous Reader
Anonymous Reader
7 years ago

Oh, and Greek Freak – lift weights. Lift. Weights. Every. Day. Use good form, go slow, lift. No time? Do pushups. Do 10. Heck, do 6. But do them. Working the upper body muscles like that will increase your testosterone. We need testosterone, it’s what makes us men. Any depressed man is likely low on T, working the body as it is designed to do does good things and specifically will help get out of that mental fog. Also any man in the northern hemisphere this time of year who finds himself getting a little fuzzy should consider taking Vitamin… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@Anonymous Reader True about vit D. I get mine tested about twice a year since I spend so much time indoors. Last test revealed lower levels, so doc prescribed 50,000 IU’s once a week for a month. After the month was up, I was still low, but not terribly. Doc said 2,000 IU’s a day and we’ll recheck in Jan. Every man 40 and above should get T levels checked. Crazy shit happens to men’s test levels after 40 and there is no definitive explanation why this is so. Stress, xenoestrogens, hormones in meat…. could be any damn thing, even… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

“@SJF Look, here’s my problem… I know that I won’t die fulfilled fucking one woman the rest of my life. But I want to believe that it’s possible. You seem to have figured out that it is possible (for you.) So, for you it’s possible. So it is possible. How the fuck is it possible? I want a straight fucking answer. Like what the fuck is it? lol.” Andy, the answer is when I met my wife I could discriminate that she was a decent catch. She got through a check list of sorts I put together and she didn’t… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
7 years ago

I still like fucking my wife, but it’s only been about a year. So who knows.

Game is natural for pretty much any man, is my conclusion. When I feel good, I game naturally. The only time I don’t, is when I feel anxious or feel like crap. Which is usually the 5 days a week I call “work days.”

trackback

[…] I’ve had occasion to think more on this tonight because of this comment at Rollo’s from Anonymous Reader: […]

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

Forgot this link at 9:03 above: https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2007/05/09/hedonic-convergence/ And I screwed up bit of that code and formatting, sorry. And Rollo had some good points in an essay on all the gnashing of teeth about what path is in a man’s best interest. It is your decision to make on how you want to proceed forward with in your inter-sexual relationships. Once again, I’m not advocating for this that or the other. I’m advocating for a man to figure out his own script after a fully informed red pill awareness and I heartily advocate for Always Defaulting to Game. http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/03/hear-me-now-believe-me-later/ Patience… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Blax re: “All men reading here that are not married, get out and start fucking women. I want you to fuck 3’s and 6’s and 9’s and 10’s ( if they get drunk enough…*kidding*). You must have as many sexual experiences as your penis will allow you to have. You will not be having these experiences to ” collect notches “. Change your mindset. You will be having these sexual experiences in the beginning, to help you figure out what it is you like sexually….” Well, that comment was epic. Haha, we more inexperienced guys don’t get enough realtalk about… Read more »

Blaximus
Blaximus
7 years ago

@Forge Thanks for the links. On my ” to read ” list. Over the years I’ve read a metric ton re: inflammation. It’s a silent killer and I’d wager 90% of people suffering from some stage of it are not aware. Good call about rancid fish oil. I used to buy the bottles with hundreds of pills, so I have shitloads of rancid oil at home. About 3 years ago I made a concerted effort to put healthier fats back in my family’s diet. No more margarine, only butter, and when I can I get it from Amish country where… Read more »

Roused
Roused
7 years ago

Dang, I took a day and a half off from from TRM and have missed a lot of good stuff in this thread. Have a bit of reading to do. I needed to unplug for just a bit from everything and let things settle and stop drinking from the firehose. @Cave Clown wrote: “90% of the battle for me with all of this is emotional state of control, and being more subtle instead of overly dominant.” Amen Cave, me too. I let myself get out of joint over the shit test. I read SJF and Cave’s comments on Sunday then… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

@ YaReally “This is relevant to Softek’s situation with the Ultimatum and LSNFTE, as he is now he’s triggering her Hypergamy/Dread (though he can soften that very slightly as I described), but if he caves to the Ultimatum and becomes exclusively monogamous, he’s showing her he needs her and after a couple months of New Relationship Energy fun times, her Hypergamy says “hmmm, that’s not the high-value guy I used to like” and she starts looking at branches.” — No lie. The other night while we were fucking, she said pretty seductively, “You don’t need me,” and then started going… Read more »

Softek
Softek
7 years ago

Also, all I’ve been doing is having sex with a girl I wanted to have sex with, and on my terms. I tried talking about Game to a friend of mine and he wrote it off as manipulative, evil, etc. If there’s one thing I’d want guys to get, it’s how Game benefits women as much as it benefits men. Sex and relationships are a two way street, and it’s been great. Like YaReally said: I have to realize that she is happy NOW with things the way they are. Men have to ‘just get it’ not only for themselves… Read more »

day-gamer
day-gamer
7 years ago

@Yareally Hey man, I have been reading your archive since the past 2 months and it has helped me a lot. Thanks for spending all this time helping people on here and Heatiste. I always thought PUA (specially Mystery Method and RSD) was complete crap. But after reading your archive I think its important to read those materials along with the Redpill concepts. Can you tell me what to read for day game? I am working on my career and I need to wake up early in the morning for my job so I can’t be out late at nights.… Read more »

IAS
IAS
7 years ago

: thank you for that quote from Solomon II (and indirectly thanks to that older Philly man).

YaReally
YaReally
7 years ago

@Blaximus “After a while, guys like Roosh don’t really even know what it is that they want, because going through the motions for so long, without understanding what was truly happening in their heads, has caused a confusion that even settling down will never ” cure “. You give Roosh what you and I have and ultimately he still won’t be satisfied. He may be irreversibly broken.” Roosh’s problem isn’t that he hasn’t met “the right girl”, it’s like you say, he doesn’t even know what he wants. Part of why PUA stresses building cold approach skills so much is… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
7 years ago

Field Report: Date with age appropriate, hard bodied, former hottie last night. Lol – what was I thinking? A few highlights… – She lied about only being married once. She was married/divorced twice. – While she didn’t bring her phone in, she did whip an iPad out of her bag so she could show me the glamor pix she’d had taken and posted on Facebook – She randomly would just start talking about being beautiful, appropo of nothing. What it was like in high school or what it was like being the “trophy wife” of the doc, hubby number 2.… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

Fantastic comments YaReally. For the record, I don’t disagree with a word you said in regards to my comments. Society has changed and a man has to adapt to thrive. I’m not an advocate for staying with a woman with old wrinkled tits for the sake of old school, first set of books values. My wife doesn’t look like Lena Dunham and she doesn’t have wrinkled tits or body this decade. Give her another ten years and she might. So far she has never failed to pass the boner test with me. I really never had a blue pill mindset… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
7 years ago

@SJF “For the record, I don’t disagree with a word you said in regards to my comments. Society has changed and a man has to adapt to thrive.” Ya I would LOVE if it was different. The old system WORKED (for the most part). Providers got fairly faithful wives and people raised decent kids and society respected men’s role etc etc. It’s not ideal or anything but like, it was functional compared to the shitshow out there right now. But I deal with reality that I see out there every week, and there is a societal shift where guys like… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

ScribblerG, Props to you for your discriminatory powers in being able to see the wolf in sheep’s clothing. Unfortunately, life and society got to her and hardened her heart. You can see that she can never be free and open, trusting, connected to a man and loving. She does not have true feminine radiance and power. Good thing you are not disconnected from your deep masculine core of purpose and consciousness that connect you to a woman’s depth if searching for a LTR. Good thing you are not only seeing only skin deep, and letting yourself be attracted to the… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@YaReally November 11th, 2015 at 9:01 am

“All I do is report what’s out there in the field in 2015.”

I once again endorse everything you said. Some of us got in before the lock. A what both of us are saying is complementary to the message of red pill and game, not contradictory.

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

@Blaximus How well do you know your wife sexually? I mean really? I haven’t pooped on her yet. I still have room to grow. Better yet, how sexually attracted are you to her and why is it that way? What is it that’s ” boring ” about sex with 1 person in your eyes? Predictability Did you not have enough experiences prior to marriage? I had enough to know that I haven’t had enough. That can be a tough one, but if your wife is sexually available to you, and you have a case of the blahs over sex with… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@ Andy I’m lucky, but I’m also skilled (and have a fair degree of mastery at a lot of things–including happiness) and no doubt at all the times are just different now. I got slammed at work yesterday afternoon and had some other thoughts typed out yesterday on this hedonic treadmill thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGFoAX2Rf6g I have always been good at pacing myself. Truth be told, honestly, I didn’t have a high N count before I married and have been monogamous for 27 years. I haven’t had spectacular sexcapades. But I live a full life and have a complement of “all other”… Read more »

scribblerg
scribblerg
7 years ago

Update. Fyi, just to prove what YaReally is trying to say about how the ecology has changed, here’s an update on the HB9 26 yr old hottie I sprayed my pants over. I’ve recovered nicely and established a dominant frame, and a very sexual one. I saw her again live but it was in a group thing with people who know her BF so we kept it discreet. But that seems to have deepened the attraction. She’s been playing hard to get over email while I’ve been working her hard. She closed her last note to me with this: “Do… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

Starting it now Glenn! Hehe, it’s hard to get much reading in on the side with all the comments here these days. You bastards.

Gotta go to work now. I fried some poor girl’s circuits yesterday cause it was funny and now I’ve gotta un-fry them for her husband’s sake. Sometimes game just happens, but I ain’t no happy home-breaker lol.

IAS
IAS
7 years ago

@ SJF and Andy : You probably know better than I do about the alpha widow effect and the reverse effect, “making up for missing out”. We consider these two as possible consequences of hypergamy in women which often (always?) lead those women to an unhappy endgame. I think there are similar effects in play for Men, or at least for many Men, and maybe a good way to interpret it is through the hedonic treadmill theory. Rollo, even though he hadn’t reached the wisdom he has now, had enough to know his own hedonic treadmill when he got into… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
7 years ago

Andy is the type of guy I’m trying to help not exist lol The guy who got married not realizing what he was signing up for and not having gotten banging random girls fully out of his system, the guy who didn’t know his SMV would raise as he got older and hot young chicks would blush around him and didn’t know his wife would hit the wall dramatically and her SMV would plummet and didn’t realize that legally tying himself into the whole situation would trap him between being “immoral” cheating on her and breaking his word/contract (and possibly… Read more »

IAS
IAS
7 years ago

@YaReally: I have such a hard time having a genuine abundance mentality. Surely part of it is my N=1 count, and even if I could internalize an abundance mentality for women in general, it seems near unanimous by those that are advanced in RP knowledge that LTR “quality” women really ARE SCARCE.

Of course the question for me is going to be if my wife is LTR “quality” as I sort out my logistics, increase my SMV (by lifting etc) and get better at game (passive dread, passing LTR shit tests etc).

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

“Now everyone involved will suffer regardless of what path he takes.”

C’est la vie. Regardless, there’s tons of guys reading this way worse off than me. I’ll figure something out.

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

If Yareally s buddy is having a hard time getting laid, what actual chance does a balding guy in the bottom third for height have?

Its hard to have abundance with women when I am realistically not anywhere close to the top 20% of guys because of genetics.

Defeatist attitude I know, but truth, no?

Dutchman
Dutchman
7 years ago

@Cave

YaReally always says that’s it’s game, not height, or looks that matter. I’m sure the problem his friend is having is that his game isn’t tight enough, not looks or whatever.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@IAS I have such a hard time having a genuine abundance mentality. Surely part of it is my N=1 count Not necessarily. I have an N of 19. Rarely were any of those 19 what I would consider genuinely attractive, but it’s far from an N of 1. Scarcity isn’t necessarily about how many options you have. It’s about how many desirable options you feel you have. I have HB4 or less options out the ass and an N count largely composed of them. Still doesn’t alleviate scarcity. I rarely in my day to day life or even when I’m… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

Dutchman that doesn’t fit with my victim narrative

Lol

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

Hey Sun, how good are you at lying to yourself?

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Forge

No. That’s the bitch of a strong sense of self-awareness. Self-deception doesn’t work well. I’ve never been very good at it.

Longgone
Longgone
7 years ago

Scribblerg, “Field Report: Date with age appropriate, hard bodied, former hottie last night. Lol – what was I thinking?” Hey Glenn, for the selfish reason of being immensely fucking inspired by your stories of banging 20-somethings I’m glad your “age -appropriate” (!?) encounter didn’t work out. I’m totally over the concept of age-appropriate. 50+ year-olds are practically invisible to me now and I get a kick out of my daughter (25yo) acting outraged (sort-of) that I’ve dated a couple girls close to her age. Can’t seem to get any plates really spinning, but am getting out and approaching, getting numbers,… Read more »

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

@Sun

I’m not going to be able to tell you anything you don’t already know, but I find the techniques in this book really good for changing your mindset. It’s basically NLP on yourself. It works though. You can probably find it free somewhere.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Law-Attraction-Made-Simple/dp/0980194180

IAS
IAS
7 years ago

About the bicycle thing, I think it is important to add it isn’t all on the male cyclist behaviour: http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906.html Mentioned in the hilarious optiong that instead of cycling like a woman, you can simply pretend to be one by wearing a wig… https://www.eta.co.uk/2011/04/01/safest-bicycle-helmet-has-built-in-wig/ Quote: “The Helmet Hair design, which is intended to be worn by both men and women, was inspired by cycle helmet research carried out by Bath University. The study revealed that car drivers leave less room when overtaking a cyclist wearing a helmet, but a much wider berth when passing a female rider with long hair.”… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

“No. That’s the bitch of a strong sense of self-awareness. Self-deception doesn’t work well. I’ve never been very good at it.” Alright, I figured. I used to think the same way about myself. It’s tricky trying to help ya because you know a lot and have tried a lot of things, so there’s a high possibility of being redundant. And what I’m gonna describe may well be one of those things that only really makes sense if you already ‘get’ it. Like I said earlier, a lot of this stuff is pretty zen that way. Anyways, I’ll try my best… Read more »

ETA
ETA
7 years ago

Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why? Never really think about it. I just see game as part of having Social Intelligence. Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions? Definitely not, at least with women, you don’t have to go all the way there. Game is fun and has helped me a lot with secretaries and women working in public services. Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations? I used to, I’m continuosly lowering my hesitations to using game, and working on it. Game… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@Forge the Sky and Sun Wukong Good explanation Forge about trying to change one’s mindset. What you are explaining with your four point process of reprogramming your mindset is pretty much the essence of “The Biology of Desire: Why Addiction Is Not a Disease” by Marc Lewis. It is an active process of reprogramming your brain because your brain is neuroplastic. It can change readily with the right inputs and modifications and limbic system (mid brain) retraining to get out of the ruts you are in. It is entirely possible the retrain your brain to get out of any rut… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
7 years ago

@CaveClown @Dutchman “YaReally always says that’s it’s game, not height, or looks that matter. I’m sure the problem his friend is having is that his game isn’t tight enough, not looks or whatever.” Ya it’s his game, he just got out of like a 7 year LTR so his game is sloppy His txting is like gay LTR txting and he’s used to having LTR sex lined up to fall back on so for years he wasn’t really pushing hard infield because he could just go have “a fun interaction” and pat himself on the back that a girl “really… Read more »

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

@Forge, @Rollo Thanks for the advice previously in this thread. I get what you’re saying. And you’re right. Just took a couple days to sink in. @SJF Either you’re way beyond me or behind me. I don’t know, but I still only get about half of what you’re saying. I still don’t get how you can view a woman as special, or not want to fuck younger women… It would be cool to be there. Thanks for the half I understand though. As for what I want. Kind of like what Forge was describing above. I want to master social… Read more »

SJF
SJF
7 years ago

@ Andy Half of me is way beyond you. The other half is behind you. The half of me that is way beyond you is mastery over my own circumstances and control of the direction of my life. See, I have that power currently. I’m satisfied in my own skin and things work out of inspiration for me these days, rather than frustration or desperation. I had a huge desire to learn, adapt and further my skills 30 years ago. And I still cultivate those today. And I am a keen observer of behavior, both directed inwards to myself and… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
7 years ago

@Andy Ya I hit some pretty top-bottom concepts this thread! Something a bit more bottom-up: If you do decide to sleep around, remember this 1. Study how people get away with it (lots of stuff in the Manosphere about it) and how people get caught. Learn what mistakes to avoid. 2. Never give a mistress any whiff of provisioning or commitment. Your relationship is about sex. Only. She probably shouldn’t even know what your real name is, or what your job is. 3. If you’re caught, do not apologize for having sex outside the marriage. An apology is subconsciously perceived… Read more »

Dark Triad Man
7 years ago
Reply to  Forge the Sky

@Forge the Sky – “It’s the flinch that invites the attack.”

Timelessly true. Well said.

Regards,

Ivan

http://www.darktriadman.com

YaReally
YaReally
7 years ago

Since this discussion is turning towards “eh fuck it go for it” here’s some stuff for Andy lol: http://yareallyarchive.com/search/?q=oltr http://yareallyarchive.com/search/?q=pltr http://yareallyarchive.com/search/?q=monogamy oLTR = Open LTR where you both are free to fuck other people pLTR = Primary LTR where you fuck girls on the side and she’s monogamous to you I break down how to make them both work and link resources and shit in those links. It’s stuff you should look at before even REMOTELY attempting this shit. It’s not techncially impossible but there are a lot of dynamics you should understand to avoid divorce rape and a broken… Read more »

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

Andy the two biggest things I have seen with cheating men getting caught 1. a jealous lover on her side 2. him being found on social media and linking to his wife

beware the jealous husband or boyfriend that send your wife a Facebook message

CaveClown
CaveClown
7 years ago

keep in mind a beta orbiters will throw you under the bus if he realizes she’s sleeping with a married man

is your wife on Facebook with the same last name?

friend of mine got caught that exact way

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

lol, thx guys. If it happens it will be a while. I don’t have time to read a fucking book let alone figure out logistics to work on pick up. @yaReally Dude, I’m reading your whole archive. Shit man. I’m only on 5/2012 and my mind is blown. I didn’t realize that you and @Rollo have been fighting about looks for 3 years. lol. I’m starting to wonder if you guys just had that little spat on the MiD conference for our benefit. I didn’t realize how in-depth the PUA understanding of women really is… Also, how dedicated you are… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
7 years ago

@Andy “If it happens it will be a while. I don’t have time to read a fucking book let alone figure out logistics to work on pick up.” It’s one of those things where it’s like look, I get what you’re saying because frankly you remind me of me and my own wiring and how I would’ve ended up if I had gotten married so I can relate to what you’re saying over the guys who view banging an old chick who lost all her teeth opening diaper bags for your poopy kid as sexy, so I can tell you’re… Read more »

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