Always Default to Game


In the last comment section a very old Game conundrum got reheated. It’s the old confusion on when to “run” Game on a woman and when not to. This concern used to be debated quite a bit in my early days at SoSuave. Occasionally it comes up now and then with guys who’re new to the Red Pill and, still in the process of disconnecting their Blue Pill ideals, want to know when it’s appropriate to use their new Game superpowers for good.

It’s kind of good to revisit the fundamentals; it gives you a better perspective on how you came to a more advanced idea so I’ll get a little remedial here. Essentially the idea guys were talking about then was how Game was something they were turning on or off as situations dictated. Guys would come up with various hypothetical or actual situations where they were unsure if using Game was appropriate. Sometimes these were ethical dilemmas, other times it was just a want for avoiding bad consequences.

  • Should I use Game on the woman at the office?
  • Should I use Game on the fat chick I honestly have no interest in?
  • I find myself using Game on my overbearing Mother and it works, should I feel bad?
  • When I apply Game / Red Pill aware practices in other areas of my life I find I’m better able to enjoy the results I want, is this manipulative?

These are a few of the more common ones, but there are many others. However, the base assumption in all of these is that Game is an act and separate from that individual’s personality or “who he really is”. While I might advise against actively, overtly “gaming” women in your workplace, the Frame you establish by applying Red Pill awareness practices (i.e. Game) will be invaluable to you.

Every time I’ve dealt with this question/presumption it’s usually the case that the guy asking about the situation is still thinking in the same Blue Pill mindset he’s been conditioned to, but has more or less accepted the realities of Red Pill awareness. He may have even killed the Beta for the better part, but the process of changing one’s Blue Pill programming, to say nothing about placing himself as his own mental point of origin is a time consuming one.

The answer is a very simple one: Always default to Game.

Law 14
Pose as a Friend, Work as a Spy

Knowing about your rival is critical. Use spies to gather valuable information that will keep you a step ahead. Better still: Play the spy yourself. In polite social encounters, learn to probe. Ask indirect questions to get people to reveal their weaknesses and intentions. There is no occasion that is not an opportunity for artful spying.

Although this Law is really directed towards one’s power rivals it is also an apt illustration of how Game is applicable in situations that you may have no real intimate interests in. In this instance that artful spying takes the form of learning to read a particular woman even when you have (or wisely shouldn’t have) no real intimate interest in her.

There was (is?) a school of Game thought that a guy new to it should apply it with “less than optimal” women in order to perfect the practice. Furthermore, for the newly Red Pill aware, it’s a relatively low investment way to evaluate proof of concept and build upon it. For as much as I’d like newly aware guys to be able to go from zero to sixty with Game, I can see the logic in this.

I say that with a caveat though; you’ve still got to consider the complications and attachments that will result from your Game actions. Not just this, you even need to be at least peripherally conscious of how your Frame control, Command PresenceAmused Mastery, etc. will impact non-intimate women’s disposition and attachment to you. Bear in mind that most men, Beta men, don’t leave the mental imprint on women that a Red Pill aware, self-MPO man does, to say nothing of a more Alpha man.

Case in point: In my line of work (liquor and gaming) there are many times when I’m working a promo with my girls, or I’m meeting random women I’ve never met before, where I have to make a mental effort to be self-conscious of how I interact with them. It’s sort of the reverse situation to constantly making an effort to stay in Frame to effect Game; it’s become such a part of my nature and personality now that I default to Game.

In fact it’s not even Game to me anymore, it’s just who I am, and particularly when I’m ‘on’ and I need to interact in a social context. It flows so naturally for me I sometimes have to make an effort to dial it back when I see IOIs or I get kino from the women working for me. When women are hitting me up to come party with them after my setup time is through, that’s a reminder that I’m making an impression on them I don’t really want to follow up on.

From Mental Point of Origin:

Your mental point of origin is really your own internalized understanding about how you yourself fit into your own understanding of Frame.

If Frame is the dominant narrative of a relationship (not limited to just romantic relations), your mental point of origin is the import and priority to which you give to the people and/or ideas involved in that relationship. It is the first thought you have when considering any particular of a relationship, and it’s often so ingrained in us that it becomes an autonomous mental process.

From Recursive Game:

While it is of course vital for a man to internalize the various fundamental truths about the nature of women (hypergamy, solipsism, Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks, love based on opportunism, etc.), these fundaments need to become an ambient condition for you in your dealings. This understanding needs to become an internal – under the surface – part of your interactions with women.

Too many guys think that all of this requires some endless capacity to psychologically micromanage every aspect of their interactions, not just with the women they become (or potentially become) intimate with, but also women they work with (or for), their mothers, sisters or daughters. A common reason men initially reject the practice (not necessarily the concept) of Game is due to some imagined expectation that they’ll need to cognitively account for every variable a woman may or may not be subjecting him or herself to.

When you think of Game as some act you put on or some cognitive fencing match between you and a woman it’s easy to believe it’s just too exhausting. That’s when one of two things usually happen; Game-awareness either sinks in and becomes part of his personality, or he relaxes and/or abandons what he’s learned of Game.

And from Artificial Joy:

Once this awareness is internalized and becomes a part of a Man’s personality there is no vigilance, just awareness. There is a subconscious understanding of the order of things from a red pill perspective, but that doesn’t mean I suspect the female bank teller I’m making a deposit with is ready to rob me blind the moment I turn to walk out the door.

Neil Strauss hinted at ‘social robots’ in The Game; guys who were nothing but Game all the time and were unable to make real emotional connections. I would argue just the opposite. The real danger inherent in Game and Red Pill awareness is a man using it to fulfill his former blue pill idealisms – that does require a constant effort.

A healthy red pill awareness requires not only a Man’s reassessment and recreation of himself, but also that he abandon his former blue pill paradigm and learn to live in a new, positive, red pill paradigm. It seems like a daunting task when you first come to terms with it, but ultimately your awareness becomes an internalized part of who you are. You can allow that to consume you with a paranoia  rooted in your former blue pill frame, or you can learn to create hope in a new system – one that you not only have more control over, but one that requires you to assume that control.

I’ve quoted these here to give you a better feel for what I mean when I say always default to Game. With that comes a practiced learning and internalization process of Red Pill awareness and a confirmation of its fundamentals. Once your personality becomes one that defaults to Game you’ll discover that Game is not just for picking up women. I’ve personally used Red Pill awareness and Game practices to close business deals, convince people with money to go with my creative ideas and even get out of a traffic ticket.

So that said, the discussion questions for the weekend (yes, I’m bringing them back) are:

Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?
Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?
Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?
Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?
Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?


  1. “Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?”

    I don’t hesitate wondering IF I should, I hesitate wondering HOW I should. Rookie yet.

    “Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?”

    Game everyone, including yourself. Especially yourself.

    “Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?”

    Yes, but only in the context of, “Can I get away with this?” and age related. I couldn’t imagine gaming someone 18-21 for instance. Feel “creepy”

    “Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?”

    Since ALL women are below my SMV…yes? In all seriousness, I don’t game HB8’s and HB9’s, massive anxiety with those gals.

    “Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?”

    I think it is because I am a “small steps” type of guy. You don’t start out squating 2x your weight. You don’t start out with 5-10 income streams. You work up to it.

    That’s assuming you work up to it though. But if a guy plays around in the HB5-7 range the rest of his days? Who am I to judge?

  2. One very inconsequential exception that won’t apply to 95%+ of the population: against older women relatives in certain cultures who will not only interpret your application of Game as disrespect, but who can and will obtain pyrrhic victories in retaliation. In such cases, short but polite and dull interactions and otherwise avoiding them as much as possible are the only correct plays. Think instantaneous bitch shield amplified by ten.

    Otherwise, I agree with Rollo that always default to game is the best way to go, as the above will not be experienced by 95%+ of people anyway and you will have some warning of that long in advance should you be in the magical 5%.

  3. Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?

    When tired I tend to default to “factual” mode, i.e. anti-Game. It takes effort to restore frame at that point, but the alternative is worse.

    Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?

    Not any more.

    Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?

    Not hesitant, but like Rollo there are times when I deliberately dial it back, and for similar reasons.

    Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?
    Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?

    Sure. I gamed a middle aged waitress last night. She was more attentive to me as a customer, and I was paying attention to her as a person rather than some sort of server-bot. She got some attention and we both had a pleasant interaction. No true Field Report generated, but she looked a bit less tired when I left than when I sat down.

    Game means accepting women as they are, not as some fevered equaltarian wants them to be. It actually humanizes women to do so, IMO.

  4. Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?

    I only think of how to best apply game that’s congruent to my personality. I understand that if it seems even remotely unnatural to myself, it’s even more obvious to that person.

    Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?
    No, but it’s a different kind of game. There’s an inherent parallel in seducing a woman to your bed versus closing a business deal, or convincing a friend to join you on a trip, but the level of escalation, scaffolding of questioning, an assertiveness will differ based on existing rapport wit that individual. But if genuine desire exists, you essentially press on with appropriate persuasion.

    Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?
    Only when I know it’s clashing with the process of killing any last vestiges of my old blue pill self. It doesn’t have much to do with ethical reasons, but the hesitancy creeps in when I’m overstepping the boundaries of what I haven’t yet truly internalized, and doesn’t feel like a natural extension of myself. But I think it’s all more reason to apply game, because it’s expanding the boundaries of my comfort zones, which effectively diminishes the pre-existing blue pill mentality.

    Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?
    Yea, of course. There’s less of a barrier in the beginning and it’s a great confidence builder. You need to see that spark/desire/lust in their eye to know theory does actually lead to desirable outcomes, when properly applied.

    Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?
    You’re likely to experience significantly less shit testing, qualifiers, and eye rolling. It’s like playing a game on novice to confirm you’re ready for intermediate/pro levels. Also, it’s a more accurate indicator of YOUR own SMV, based on the level of successful you have with such women.

  5. I increasingly default to game in most situations with women mostly because it’s actually really fun. I stopped viewing it as something that made me uncomfortable and started viewing each interaction as an experiment, giving me the opportunity to try and test different approaches, fine tune what works, discard what doesn’t work.

    It’s funny… Failure is starting to be something that doesn’t really cause me angst anymore, but rather part of the experimentation. Four recent examples:

    1) Went to an outdoor fish market by myself recently. Latina waitress had a really cute face, but huge ass. Gamed her anyway. Smiled, flirted, had a great time teasing her, eyefucking her. Bill comes and she pushes her phone number into my hand. Success…

    2) At lunch with friends of mine. Very attractive black waitress. Same story… Smiling, flirting, eye fucking her. She starts teasing me about the fact that I probably won’t pick up the tab for the table because guys with dimples never pay. Success…

    3) Cute bartender. We get to talking about her conquests and mine. Very open sexually. Get her phone number and text her later. Tell her to meet me at a quiet private bar the next evening and to wear something sexy. She flirts back, “I’m always sexy.” I’m thinking this is going to be easy as hell… An hour before she flakes… Failure

    4) Tonight. Waiting on a hot little Eastern European chick to come by. She’s already 45 minutes late, but texted me and said “Pace yourself! I have something fun for you.” Will tonight be a success or failure?

    Who knows… But it really is becoming my default mode. They say that there are two kinds of gamers. Guys that like to move as quickly as possible to the lay and guys that like the buildup, the challenge, the flirtation, the back and forth. I didn’t think I was that kind of guy, but I guess I am. The verbal, mental, physical foreplay (teasing, push/pull, kino, etc.) amps me up as much as it amps up the women I’m gaming.

  6. Great post Rollo.

    Last month I was working at a new job. My department had like 7 girls. They were pretty much 6es and below.

    I’ve been red pill aware for almost a year now. Made huge improvements over this time. At this new job I kept to my new red pill aware frame (which is becoming more and more natural to me). Anyway I wouldn’t say I was gaming those 6es and 5s there. (they were way bellow my smv) however I just kept to my new frame. Fun fact is that frame alone got them attracted in me. One chick started to flirt really heavy with me, even though she had a boyfriend. The other chicks showed lots of ioi’s and kino. Even the female supervisor started to kino on me which got really annoying and distractive later on.
    (I’m an average looking guy in addition to that, I started that job with 3 friends of mine. All of them are blue pillers and none of them got that kind of attention I received.)

    So I think merely the red pill aware frame alone can actually attract women without even wanting to game them.

  7. Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?
    No, given that Game is essentially learned and applied charisma, background (passive on)? Game should be the default, and ramp up or down as necessary.

    Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?
    Are sales and presentation skills only applicable when working as a salesman or making a business presentation?

    Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?
    Nope. All social interaction is some level of presentation.manipulation, and all relationships have a Dom and a Sub. If you are not Gaming or at least actively aware of the Gaming around you, then you are the one being Gamed.

    Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?
    Yes, all the time. Just remember to dial back when necessary.

    Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?
    Absolutely, just be careful to keep it light and not make promises that you are not willing to follow through in a physical sense. Leave them feeling good, but not let down or betrayed.

  8. I have a mental chart for placing all women i interact with on a four quadrant cycle corresponding to their period days (mostly have to make a guess and tune for corrections).

    For instance, one of my co-workers is a 4th weeker, so i can ask for favors on the 2nd week of every month. And she’s just one example of applying game to your colleagues. Once you’re game aware, you have more avenues to exercise more social power.

    When i began however, i made a critical mistake of assuming a uniform identity. I would be alpha not only with my girl, but also with my boss and other buddies. So game as much as you want, but make sure you understand the consequences of your frame.

  9. Game saved and changed my life 6 years ago. I now consciously apply it as much as possible. The hardest learning is calibration. You don’t neg your mother’s friends. But you can tease, you can display amused mastery.

    I also notice that girls apply girl game all the time. When they act bitchy, when they shit-test, when they tease—it’s because they’re interested.

    When they don’t reply often it’s a ploy as well to try to get you to chase.

    I’m now at the point in my game development where I’ve gotten good and reached many of my own milestones. I’m now trying to make it much more internalized and natural.

    It has been that I meet a girl, neg, tease, spike attraction, switch to comfort, number close or bounce.

    Now i’m trying to smooth it out and that part has been tougher. I tend to hesitate when I’m not on game auto-pilot. I start to second-guess myself.

    So in the words of YaReally, it has been a super-power that when consciously delivered is very successful. When I start to try to do it more naturally, I miss steps, miss cues.

    THe other night I was gaming a girl, was going well, she made a comment about asking me about my inspiration for some type of music. I said “that will be the next conversation” and left.

    I realized after I should have said “Ahh, that’s something best discussed over drinks…”

    So yah…I wasn’t thinking, I was just going with the flow and missed that cue.

  10. 1. Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?
    Sometimes. I work in the OR, so sometimes I have to use it and sometimes it’s best not to use it. I will use it 100% in business negotiations.

    2. Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?
    At first, yes, but now I see its applicable in many day to day situations.

    3. Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?
    I’ve found sometimes BP considerations affect my social interactions. I was raised to be the good little boy. A proper Southern Gentleman. I broke from it in my wild days, but sometimes that indoctrination brakes through psychologically. It’s like a pitcher can have a no-hitter, and every once in a while John Smoltz would not be able to throw for shit, because some muscle memory comes out in the baseball game and it blows up in his face.

    4. Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?
    Yes. I’ll always use this with 2 to 3 women as a “warm up” socially. I’ll chat up a blue haired fatty just to get “in the zone”

    5. Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?
    Situational. I don’t want her to go nuts on me and turn her on to the point she stalks me, but it’s OK to use the women.

  11. 1)Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?

    No hesitation whatsoever, but sometimes I slip up and forget and fuck up. Still working on full internalization.

    2) Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?

    Game works great any time and place. With co-workers, family, superiors, subordinates, I’ve had great success in all my relationships.

    3) Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?

    No hesitation whatsoever, Game doesn’t mean your actions are unethical. On the contrary, I use game to help myself and others, it’s not zero sum. Both parties can come out winning.

    4) Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?

    Plenty of times. I’ve converted 3 hardcore feminists to become traditionalist women. They’ve been extremely appreciative how much their lives have improved.

    5) Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?

    Game should be on 24/7 until it’s the default. I’ve been watching 50+ year old movies, and it seems “Game” or at least some form of it, was the default for men for most of history. We’re just re-establishing what used to work. Practice makes perfect, so practice on everyone, not just women.

    I’ve only learned of Game approximately 3 months ago, and my life has improved abundantly since implementing it.

  12. Game and Red pill awareness is useful for a man in many areas of life, even when handing a failure/rejection in education or in a career.
    There’s nothing unethical in using red pill knowledge on all women because it helps you relate to them in a more positive way as a man!

    As for low SMV women often they have inflated self perception so they can be accustomed to rejecting higher SMV men!


  13. Like CaveClown, what gives me more doubts is with much younger girls/women.

    But I also would have trouble with office / work place situations, and similarly, in your gym or similar.

    I guess the common underlying issue is worrying about negative effects that linger if you overdo it or mess up.

  14. The Game is not getting laid. The Game is Life. Getting laid is simply a subset of Life. The first quasi-volitional act you ever performed, very shortly after birth, was to game your mother to get what you wanted from her. It wasn’t long before you started learning how to game her more effectively, and to game your father as well. A huge chunk of your personality is how you learned to play The Game in the first few years of your life.

    There is conscious game and unconscious game. There is good game and bad game, but it is all game. For men, the quality of your game is scored against the Burden of Performance. All people, not just women you want to bang, will judge you based on your performance and do so in comparison to other people. It’s a competition; get used to the idea. Learn the rules and play well, play to win. Winning is good. Losing is not a virtue. The people who try to convince you that everyone should finish at the same time and get the same reward for it are gaming you to be inferior to them. If you doubt that pay attention to the way they judge you.

    “Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?”

    This may be a hard concept for some of the men here to grasp, but I game women to lose interest in me. To get them to go away and leave me the hell alone.

    Game is not about getting laid.

    Game is about getting what you want.

  15. Well, couple of things:
    – I game my LTR and things are more bearable that way – arguments often end with her giggling.
    – Got mobbed outta my last job by my boss. Gamed all the ladies there except my boss, got lots of IOI, puppy-eyed looks and discreet advances. My boss couldn’t take it so she mobbed me out – now she’s in row for the kick.
    – Gamed an older lady at a shop, she starts to flirt me like a loose slut 🙂
    – Gamed some cops who arrested me for being a bad boy. Incident ended in smiles and giggles. Should have asked the cute petite cop for her number 🙁
    – Went to court and got eye-fucked by a hot judge while having a smoke outside.
    – Generally game waiters (m/f) and ppl at supermarkets, most response is pleasurable.

    So yes, I game/flirt girls by default and try to alighten interactions with people as it makes these more pleasurable even if my game sucks – I’ll get better. Just be nice to ppl, give them a bit of underhanded humor in their boring days and you’ll have lotsa fun and get eye-fucked by the girls.

    The incident with my boss I discount. I committed the error of being too much of a nice guy to her: she’s married+3kids but still a full-bore slut and a bad psycho.

  16. “Gamed all the ladies there except my boss . . .”

    Your error was to use overall bad game in the context of the environment. Unless what you wanted out of the environment was to get mobbed out of it.

    “The incident with my boss I discount.”

    An ideal mental strategy for maintaining comfort, and thus failing to improve.

  17. Game is more a frame than anything else, no?

    Its having awareness, and control over, both the direction of the interaction and the subtle power plays that take place in all interactions.

    Pick up is only one aspect of game. I try to game everyone because I want CONTROL…not validation.

    (Ok, sometimes I still want validation, but that is a mindset I am working on yet)

    “The people who try to convince you that everyone should finish at the same time and get the same reward for it are gaming you to be inferior to them. If you doubt that pay attention to the way they judge you”


    True words right there. I grew up poor. Like ghetto poor.

    EVERY person I knew personally (except women with interest, hmm…) turned on me when I started making money. Friends, relatives, mom, dad, sisters, wife, etc.

    Crabs in a barrel.

    Fuck ’em.

    So I started expanding my circle of people I knew, and added mostly successful people.

    Its a whole different world, and I’m on the bottom rung of it yet. (with both game and money)

    Rich (successful men mostly) people game everyone they interact with non-intimately. I’ve had my ass handed to me multiple times, and i love it.

    Most of them fold around pretty girls though, lol.

    The difference between success and failure is mindset, it truly is.

    Play life to win.

  18. “Rich (successful men mostly) people game everyone they interact with non-intimately.”

    That sounds very lonely. 🙁
    from the ‘Happiness’ chapter of Scott Adam’s book “How to Fail at Everything and Still Win Big”:

    He gives an outline of his recommendations for happiness with some examples in this chapter. Much of it has to do with diet, sleep, exercise and so forth. He finishes with an example of himself and his success. He says after he reached the pinnacle of accomplishing everything he’d ever set out to do, and exceeding his wildest expectations, he felt suddenly and profoundly sad.
    “After some self-reflection I realized that I was feeling adrift. I no longer had a primary purpose in life because I’d already achieved it. It was an eerie feeling, unreal and unsettling. I had no kids at the time, so I had no reason to achieve anything more. I’d dipped well below my baseline happiness and I wasn’t rebounding.

    The way I climbed out of my funk was by realizing that my newly acqquired resources could help me change the world in some small but positive ways. That was my motivation for creating Dilberito, which I hoped would make nutrition convenient and perhaps contribute to a trend. In the long run, the Dilberito didn’t work out. But it was 100 percent successful in giving me a meaningful purpose, which allowed my optimism and energy to returen.

    Unhappiness that is casused by too much success is a high class problem. That’s the sort of unhappiness peopel work all of their lives to get. If you find yourself there, and I hope you do, you’ll find your attention naturally turning outward. You’ll seek happiness through service to others. I promise it will feel wonderful.”

    FWIW, the above is true of the affluent folks I know.

  19. Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?
    == I don’t hesitate, but sometimes am not mindful enough to use it in all situations.

    Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?
    == I consider “alpha” to mean “leader” and apply the psychological stuff to all situations.

    Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?
    == Never

    Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?
    == Since I am the alpha male, aren’t ALL women below my SMV? Obviously not objectively, but thinking of myself as “the bomb” helps in ALL situations.

    Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?
    == It is not practice. When you look at the world through a “48 Laws of Power” filter, everybody has something to offer. Not just women that you want to bang.

  20. “That sounds very lonely.”

    You don’t understand it.

    “He says after he reached the pinnacle of accomplishing everything he’d ever set out to do, and exceeding his wildest expectations, he felt suddenly and profoundly sad.”

    He did not understand it either. What he learned, the hard way, is that he had been gamed into his goals.

    Let me a try a bit of re-emphasis:

    Game is getting what you want. The tricky bit isn’t even the getting, it’s actually knowing what you want. Many men die without ever having had a clue.

  21. Really Liz? I call total B.S. on that.

    A douchebag cartoonist that couldn’t settle on a decent job and was probably an uber nerd until he hit his late forties? And then became wealthy and didn’t know his true purpose in life?

    We’re going to take inspiration from that?

    CaveClown is right. The difference between success and failure is mindset.
    And Scott Adam’s simply didn’t have his mindset right.

    Simply not true of (not-super) affluent folks I know. Must be true among the affluent that suddenly became wealthy and rose to their level of incompetence.

    You are describing an apex fallacy that I doubt an honest red pill aware man (one without buffers and a healthy ounce of Stoicism) is likely to fall victim to.

    And gaming in a non-sexual way in no way equals loneliness for an individual. That is a straw man fallacy you just used as a premise. Cave-Clown said non-intimate. He meant non-sexual.

  22. @kfg

    Thanks for the comment.

    Game is a thing where the difference between book-smart and IRL-smart can’t be explained but must be lived through.

    I know my game sucks and my state of mind leaves a bit to be desired yet I’m not gonna throw myself into a pit of despair just cuz I was nailed by a despicable cunt who has the suicide of a former colleague to be ‘proud’ of.

    I use that failure experience to learn.

  23. “He did not understand it either. What he learned, the hard way, is that he had been gamed into his goals.”

    Could you elaborate on this?
    How so? He had always aspired (since childhood) to be a professional cartoonist, and he became a professional, uber-successful cartoonist.

  24. “Really Liz? I call total B.S. on that.
    A douchebag cartoonist that couldn’t settle on a decent job and was probably an uber nerd until he hit his late forties? And then became wealthy and didn’t know his true purpose in life?”

    Well, fair enough but he isn’t the only successful person who has said the same sort of thing but less succinctly. Covey (of Seven Habits of Highly Effect People) and Tony Robbins say the same sort of thing.

  25. “And gaming in a non-sexual way in no way equals loneliness for an individual.”
    I agree, but that isn’t what I suggested. I said (from the quote) gaming EVERYONE (not some people, but a lifestyle of gaming absolutely everyone you are not intimate with) sounds lonely.

  26. “But I also would have trouble with office / work place situations, and similarly,”

    Workplace is actually where I excel with women and game.

    I ran a business a few years back and had 8-12 women working for me that were in their early twenties.

    They referred to themselves as, “CaveClown’s harem”

    I’m actually really lucky I didn’t get sued for harassment, as I went way beyond flirting a few times.

    I can talk to and attempt to game women in grocery stores and such easy enough too, especially if I have my youngest kid with me. Chick magnet.

    But a bar or nightclub? Forget about it. Wallflower big time.

    Or an HB8-9? Not a chance.

    Under 21? Yeah right.

    Hits all my attraction triggers, regardless of objective smv #? Again, no way.

  27. @KFG – Spot on. “Game” is merely applied social/psychological intelligence. One uses it to achieve whatever ends one seeks. “Pick up” is a specific form of social intelligence that is called “Game”, and it’s about aiming that social intelligence in the direction of getting laid. There is also LTR/married game, which is yet again a different application of the same social intelligence.

    In every aspect of my life, being seen as an alpha is incredibly valuable. There is also not a single situation in my existence where possessing and exercising social intelligence isn’t a huge asset. To reduce Game to being about getting laid is to admit that you don’t understand the first thing about what’s being presented here in the first place – get that.

    This is why I find the questions not worthy of answering. All game is internal game, otherwise it’s just an act you are playing with. It’s very likely you are creating social messes all around you to boot as you really don’t own who you are but rather are being an act, a pretense, adopting a pose – which makes you a poseur if it’s an act for you.

    Here are a couple of common lies:

    “Fake it till you make it” – Not wrt Game. Faking it means you actually don’t see yourself as valuable and you will not project high value and natural dominance as a result of seeing yourself this way.

    “Act as if” – More bullshit that seeks to cover up that deep down inside you suspect you really are a pussy. Pro tip: If you really are a pussy, that is what to work on. Get in a fight. Do something dangerous. Stand up for yourself with people. Work on being an actual man, not Game.

    Partial Field Report: Was out with the wingman last night and had a fascinating interaction with a woman my own age, who looked fabulous. I ascertained that her only marriage was as a virgin, that she never had “young wild times” and is incredibly traditional, but not uptight. She’s not a one night lay and as I’ve said here, I’m now open to someone more mature who is fuckable and compatible. We clicked, she slid right into my dominance.

    What was interesting was how I knew intuitively to not try and fuck her, but rather worked on her interest and was evaluating her because I saw her as long term potential. Sure, I negged a bit and teased, but I also got a lot of emotional spikes in and activated her fantasy hamster, and her fantasy isn’t being gang-banged by 4 ghetto thugs, lol. She seems to be another person in a “time warp” as I feel I am, a traditional person walking around this society watching it in shock and horror.

    It was so utterly natural. I instinctively restrained my escalations and kino, and made them subtle which created a space where she could actually relax and feel safe with me and the wing. She stepped forward and opened up and began sharing a ton about how she saw the world and her life, and it was this opening that I stepped into in a substantial way. What I realized is that I saw her as a high value woman and instinctively treated her differently. It really rocked me is it made clear that I don’t see most of the women I meet as high value.

    NAWALTING and Unicorns not withstanding, I have to say that it was fantastic to meet a woman who I see as high value. I could actually picture doing LTR with such a woman. Now, don’t get me wrong guys, I’m going to go over and fuck Ashley this afternoon, she was hot to trot last night and I let her simmer so when I show up today all I have to do is forcibly take her the moment I see her. The beast is alive and well within me, but it’s really nice to meet someone who I have any interest in an LTR with.

    The saddest part about our modern zeitgeist is that it’s so tawdry and low, and it only looks even more so when you meet people who are operating at a higher, more substantive level of existence than how their ass looks in the mirror. Fyi, C., from last night never wears yoga pants yet has an ass you could eat breakfast. She looks like a hot 40 unless you are incredibly observant, with a rock hard body – from gardening furiously, doesn’t go to the gym and actually didn’t even have her phone with her last night, she leaves it in the car as she hates the entire phone culture. Easily an HB9 in her prime, she had that sophistication about men and sexual politics that comes from being a beautiful woman for her entire life and being hit on relentlessly. Even last night. she was getting attention from other men in the bar, a guy the next table over kept looking over. He was funny, he would shoot kind of a glare at me, which I didn’t get invested in – if he burst into flames I might not have thrown my drink at him, which he could tell and it made him angrier. But I could see how consumed he was with C. Typical raging beta,filled with fear and self-loathing – he’s just funny to me. And like a typical beta, he just sat there stewing for 90 minutes. Doing nothing about it. Didn’t even try and talk to her once – fucking pussy. Bigger than me and 10+ years younger, he didn’t stand a chance.

    The wing was blown away. It was interesting in that regard as he and I have never discussed ‘rules’ about who gets there first etc. so there was a bit of a competition at first. Lol, just at first. He never saw me work in this way before, usually I’m frothing up young hotties with teasing and push/pull and he’s never seen my “long game”. He texted me while we were with her, “Are you going to close”, I responded, “She’s not going to fuck anyone tonight”.

    Although I should say that I could see her weakening as her attraction spiked and perhaps I could have isolated and then escalated but that is not the kind of dynamic I wanted to create with her. I instead was drawing her out, learning more about her, testing her, checking her, evaluating her – this actually demonstrated huge high value for me as unlike most guys I wasn’t spraying my pants over her.

    Yet I used eye contact more powerfully than I ever have before and I could see her melting under my gaze. The emotional surrender was right there, it was thing of beauty. Slowed my speed down, plenty of bass in my voice, she was butter.

    Number closed her and already booked a date for wed night with her this morning over text, she let me know she’s available tonight but I’m making her wait. And after all. Ashley is a beautiful young spinner, fucking her is delightful so I’ll keep with the plan I already have. Hanging with the boys to watch the Pats go for another win tomorrow and then some work, I have my priorities in order.

    Turns out one of them is finding a long term relationship – I thought I had given up on the entire idea of one but what was really going on is that I haven’t met woman worth considering an LTR with in a long time. Lol, this is the saddest part of all for feminism and our society, as guys like me who are willing to be real men see these women for the ridiculous cartoon characters they’ve turned themselves into treat them accordingly. Like fuck-toys and morons.

    Maybe I should try and fuck Lisa (another plate campaign)after the game tomorrow? She’s a plate I’ve been trying to spin up for a while now, a total slut, tats and all. 34, a kid. She thinks she’s the prize and I made a mistake when I first met her while I was still in RP digestion mode. Been trying to re-frame and she seems into it, we’ll see.

  28. Re:

    “Unhappy success”

    Its part of the script for rich people. If you get rich and hold onto that money for your own self advancement, then you are a selfish asshole that only cares about himself.

    But if you “give” to others to show your altruism for your fellow man, then you are a benevolent leader and therefore “worthy” of your success.

  29. “And Scott Adam’s simply didn’t have his mindset right.”

    Or he did, and is playing the game. I don’t know enough about the man to say which is correct.


    Tony Robbins though? Playing the game. Covey? Playing the game.

    Robbins specifically is playing the game to reduce the feelings of guilt in his followers. Most people despise successful people because of jealousy, this is a way for Tony to sell people on what they perceive as a “better” rich person. Which makes it OK to pursue success as a goal, which you can’t do without buying Tony’s products!

    Game recognized.

  30. I first came across game in 2006 and although finding it very interesting psychologically, I saw it as an “act” and wasn’t personally interested to learn it, seemed like too much work and I didn’t have the courage and attitude required to even try. Inner AFC still unawakened. Then I discovered this blog two months ago and my eyes were opened. Now I’m building my confidence up, and I find game comes naturally as a result in form of increasing amused mastery.

    I have a question about “dialling back”. I’m 6″3, handsome guy with an athletic body, and I naturally get a lot of positive attention from women. Just used to be shy and painfully beta. In the past I’ve experienced it many times in social circles that I get a lot of IOI’s from a woman for a while only to have them turn cold and distant at some point, while I myself did nothing to cause it. I’ve understood it as a “wow this guy is interesting – oh he isn’t interested in me, fuck him” -mechanism, but I don’t know why it happens and how to prevent it. I came to think about these past cases yesterday when I was at an event and there was a woman that was showing IOI’s and lots of kino. Due to circumstance and my beta traits yet to be unlearned I didn’t proceed with the situation as I should have, and kind of left her efforts hanging in the air. Over the past two months I’ve discovered that a woman’s interest seems like a switch that is switched on or off only once, and it seems impossible to switch it back on if some beta behaviour has caused the interest to switch off. Plenty of fish in the sea, I know, learning this on a fast course too, but this particular woman is in a circle of friends and I’d appreciate any insight on this issue.

  31. Re: “Unhappy success”. Fair enough. Just to ask (internet peoples in general, of CC in particular if you want to respond)…
    It has been my experience that when a person becomes very successful there is often a period of, not exactly sadness of let-down, but personal reevaluation and reflection.
    Might be for unsuccessful people as well. It just seems more driven people are more likely to re-evaluate where they are standing at some point in life and change direction, sometimes in very big ways. And it all comes down to personal happiness.

  32. FWIW, I live in a 6000 square foot house on the beach, three stories with an elevator.
    I’m not jealous of rich people (nor do I feel particularly guilty, we’ve worked and saved for what we’ve accomplished, my husband in particular).

  33. @Cave – Liz is parroting a Blue Pill script that is designed to take power away from rich, successful men. Fyi, I’ve never once heard of a female zillionaire saying such a thing. We can’t have ourselves actually acknowledging the superiority of successful men now, right?

    There is nothing more Blue Pill than not being able to enjoy your own power, success and wealth. Sure, give to some charity and help other people but to be unhappily successful likely means you somehow or the other don’t feel worthy of your power/success/wealth and that is as Blue Pill as it gets.

    I went through my own version of this as when I made big money it “meant nothing to me” – that’s cuz deep down inside I always suspected I wasn’t good enough, that I was broken, that I was “fucked from birth”. Lol, now when those nascent thoughts dare show their heads for a nano-second I lop their heads off and expiate them from my being.

    Want to know what to do with 20 million bux? Buy a 2 million dollar luxury sailing yacht and go see the world for 5 years. Go back to school and study evolutionary psychology for the fuck of it. Do whatever pleases you – and if you can’t come up with anything which pleases you, the problem is your fucked up head, not wealth and success.

  34. “It just seems more driven people are more likely to re-evaluate where they are standing at some point in life and change direction, sometimes in very big ways”

    You just answered your own question.

    You see “he got rich and now he is doing a 180”

    You didn’t see the other 57 times he changed tracks before he got rich. Before he “made it”.

    So you are either seeing people that realize that they pursued something they never really wanted,

    “Game is getting what you want. The tricky bit isn’t even the getting, it’s actually knowing what you want. Many men die without ever having had a clue.” – KFG

    or the change was the goal all along, and the other stuff was just a vehicle to get there. (as a red pill and game aware man should know)

  35. For the record, I give money to help animals (dogs in particular) as I feel they are the only true “innocents” in the world.

    Now I am worthy of my success.

    Whew…that’s a load off my mind!


  36. Thanks for the response, CC. Interesting stuff.
    Well, just from a personal standpoint I saw this in our famliy life with my husband. He just found the direction he was going unfulfilling (even though it was what he had wanted all of his life) so we 180ed. Happened just about overnight for him. I know him very very well.

    Scribblerg, I was smart enough to buy Apple when it was almost a penny stock. You don’t know enough about me to analyze my person motivations. Believe what you want.
    Anyway, won’t bother you all again for a while. Thanks for the interesting discussion. 🙂

  37. Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?

    I hesitated when I had an oxytocin addiction to a woman’s face and felt shy around her.

    Sometimes I lack the mental energy late night when I’m at Walmart to joke with the cashier and sometimes I lack the habit of “bringing the party” to other people. My habit is to be reserved.

    Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?

    Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?

    I have no ethical considerations with using Game as if there is anything inherently wrong with Game. I care about my vows and don’t want to break them, so there are limits as to what elements of Game I use (limits on kino & escalation).

    Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?

    All the time.

    Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?

    Yes, but it’s always necessary to work to strengthen your frame, which requires gaming women with higher SMVs. For me, gaming high SMV woman is normal maintenance of my frame. Being around women will allow you to learn about them. That is an important function of Game.

    Pertinent Field Report

    Tl;dr 1) by gaming lower SMV women (to some degree), you can learn important info about women and other men and gain social status, 2) by gaming higher SMV women you can learn about women’s emotional states and gain more social status, 3) you can get useful info from rejections

    Last night I cold-approached and danced with women of all different SMVs. I had to force myself to cold-approach and dance with some women with lower SMVs. Others are friends I’m fond of and dancing with them was enjoyable. I was rejected three times last night when I asked women to dance. Two were cold approaches and one was an acquaintance whom I still chatted up a bit. In one cold approach, a previous partner of mine (whom I had cold-approached last night) and her friend tried to persuade the woman (I’ll call her ‘W’) to dance and were pulling her onto the dance floor. I ended up dancing a second dance with my previous partner in that group. I suspect that a couple of things were going on. First, W likely was shy. Second, W could likely read that my previous partner was somewhat attracted to me and didn’t want to compete with her friend. A rejection can get you useful information.
    I’ve learned that dancing with women with lower SMVs gives you AMOG credibility because you give them social proof by dancing with them. Being AMOG opens doors. Higher SMV women will want your attention. Status!

    I’ve also learned some important things about women by dancing with women with lower SMVs. If the lower SMV women are popular, they may tell you some important info about other women who want you to approach or about male rivals.

    Last night I got an insight into the emotional world of women. I cold-approached and asked a blonde HB8 to dance. (She was actually a little too thin.) HB8 didn’t know how to dance, so I worked on teaching her, stepping with emphasis so that she felt my frame and my step and calling her feet (“right, left, right, left” in rhythm). HB8 got the basic pattern down and I mostly stopped calling her feet, resuming calling only if she got off, which was infrequent. At the end of the dance, HB8 was very happy. She told me that she really got into the song and HB8 wanted to give me a big hug. Music and dancing can have a powerful emotional impact on women.

  38. @Dawg: That is the best possible response to me you could have given. Kudos.

    Here is the gist of your error – you defined your purpose in the workplace as getting IOIs from all the ladies. When I have found myself in a similar position my purpose was to get money.

    @Liz: “Could you elaborate on this?”

    I could, but you did it yourself right here:

    “It just seems more driven people are more likely to re-evaluate where they are standing at some point in life and change direction, sometimes in very big ways.”

    In phase one they were striving toward a “success” that was given to them from outside. It was what other people wanted, and they were gamed into pursuing it.

    In phase two they have their red pill awakening and start defining the terms of success for themselves, finally striving to reach their own goals. What is “success?” Getting what you want. Ergo, only you can define success.

    “And it all comes down to personal happiness.”

    There ya go.

  39. “In phase one they were striving toward a “success” that was given to them from outside. It was what other people wanted, and they were gamed into pursuing it”

    You mean like my getting married?!?!?!?

    Are you saying I was gamed by my mother, father, society, and the media into marrying a woman because I should def discard my immature desire to bang multiple women and instead man up and dedicate my life to her and then by extension our children?

    You mean THAT is why I am unhappy being married? You mean THAT is why I am unhappy with monogamy?

    But they said a successful marriage would make me happy! I was counting on that validation of my own self worth, and they lied to me!


    Amazing how all of this red pill stuff is intertwined.

    It ALL comes down to living in your own frame…all of it.

  40. @Liz: “I live in a 6000 square foot house on the beach, three stories with an elevator.”

    Which for me would be abject failure.

    @Scribbler: “Want to know what to do with 20 million bux? Buy a 2 million dollar luxury sailing yacht and go see the world for 5 years.”

    If your goal is to go cruising for 5 years, the most likely route to success is to leave now in a simple, seaworthy 24 footer that needn’t cost any more than $30k.

    If your goal is to own a 2 million dollar luxury yacht, you will likely have to give up the idea of cruising for 5 years.

  41. Kfg,

    What else?

    I’m in the middle of a nihilistic existential quandary, so beats the fuck out of me.

    I’m either on the edge of a mindset breakthrough that will bring me to the next level, or I’m a step away from failure. One of those.

  42. “Rich (successful men mostly) people game everyone they interact with non-intimately.”

    Yes. Gaming involves engaging other people. Not lonely in the slightest. Think of people like Liz’s husband, Mike. He games people alla time. Mike is engaging, per Liz.

  43. “Do you hesitate to use Game in different situations, and if so why?”

    Hesitation occurs to any practitioner of the Way when there is not seamless engagement with encounters from the basis of correct posture. Hesitation comes from the stopping of the mind.

    Decision not to apply the Way to an engagement with another person is not hesitation,it is simply a different conscious posture. That does not mean that such suspension of the Way is correct.

    Typically it is not. The Way is what a practitioner strives to embody with flow and power comes from that flow.

    If your Game is stuttering in stop and go traffic you are not embodying the flow of power.

    “Do you think Game is only applicable to your intimate interactions?”

    See above. No.

    “Are you hesitant to use Game because of ethical or Blue Pill considerations?”

    I am a Dark Triad Man. No.

    “Have you ever applied Game and/or Red Pill aware ideas to women below your own SMV?”

    Absolutely. Flow in small matters is on principle the same as flow in large matters. One must strive to manifest the Way in all ends of the power gradient.

    “Do you think it’s advisable to “practice” Game with such women?”

    Beyond advisable, it is strongly recommended as the casually low level of outcome interest enables more relaxed experimentation of interaction and redirection of outcomes. Low value encounters are prime arenas for training in subtler and gentler expressions of Game.

    One, however, should exercise care. “Be kind” is identical to saying “do not be gratuitous”.

    It is one thing to practice Game on a low SMV recipient. Properly done, such gentle practice is pleasurable to the low SMV recipient and useful to the practitioner. Gratuitous deployment of Game for the purpose of self amusement – seeing how wound up of an attraction you can unnecessarily generate in the low SMV – is sadism.

    The Dark Triad Man does not engage in the casual sadism that comes from gratuitous deployment of power for transient enjoyment.

    Mr. Tomassi, superb post. The contiguous and continuous application of Game is the Way and the source of cultivation of power.

    One hopes that those who are scholars will take to heart the necessity of dampening of Game when the flow of power has become inherent to the heart. That is the essence of mastery.



  44. Since we are discussing money…

    For the longest time I pursued wealth as a way to prove myself. Validation, appreciation, and especially showing up my father.

    It brought me no satisfaction or contentment, even though I thought it would.

    Cue the red pill, and specifically rollos work.

    I am now shifting gears to align my finances into residual income. (Commonly referred to as passive income)

    It will take a few years to do, but the result is closer to what I want, which is freedom from being in an employer’s or contract’s frame.

    I really don’t like answering to anyone for anything.

    Not a wife, or my kids, or a job, or a debt, or anything.

    I am building my whole frame on that.

  45. @CaveClown – “I’m either on the edge of a mindset breakthrough that will bring me to the next level, or I’m a step away from failure. One of those.”

    When you realize they are not disparate, but that both are the same division by zero – you will have attained mastery.

    Within every encounter lies the singularity of mastery. Resolve yourself towards singularity and the ridiculous becomes the sublime, the profound becomes the ridiculous, and the dark world spreads herself and lies panting and slick at your feet.



  46. Ivan, thanks.

    Kfg…”razors edge”, glad to be here lol.

    I look forward to the challenge.

  47. @CaveClown – “For the longest time I pursued wealth as a way to prove myself. Validation, appreciation, and especially showing up my father.
    It brought me no satisfaction or contentment, even though I thought it would.”

    It did teach you perseverance, endurance and focus. That said, adaptation of purpose is entirely within the prerogative of man.

    “Cue the red pill, and specifically rollos work.”

    Mr. Tomassi’s work is a seminal and powerful body of knowledge that I cannot recommend highly enough to any man seeking to shatter his illusions and move from blue pill to red pill.

    There are many teachers in the manosphere but very few have the authentic voice, real world power and ability to modulate posture the way Mr. Tomassi deploys.

    Scholarship of the Way is not complete without full digestion of his work.

    “I am now shifting gears to align my finances into residual income. (Commonly referred to as passive income)”

    It is simply necessary.

    Your time given to an employer is not money.

    Your time given to an employer is death.

    You are selling your life if you work for another.

    “It will take a few years to do, but the result is closer to what I want, which is freedom from being in an employer’s or contract’s frame.”

    Correct. The Sixth of the Nine Laws of the Dark Triad Man is freedom. Realization that none is worthy to be your master; that there is no limit to your fluid power; and a complete abandonment of external locus of control is the essence of the Sixth Law.

    “I really don’t like answering to anyone for anything.”

    It is a violation of the natural order.

    “Not a wife, or my kids, or a job, or a debt, or anything.”

    The Seventh of the Nine Laws is power. You are on your way.

    “I am building my whole frame on that.”

    It is beautiful to see.



  48. Ivan,

    Not answering to anyone includes my own emotions…

    …and not being a slave to how I “feel”

    Gotta game yourself too.

    Can’t be a slave to my dick either…

    Society wants me to be a slave to both.

    Creating my own bondage as it were.

  49. Sorry, just wanted to answer posts addressed to me:

    “Which for me would be abject failure.”
    That’s just the guest house! (I kid) 😛
    But I wouldn’t even call living paycheck to paycheck and in total squalor “abject failure”. I’ve done both. Spent a great deal of time living poorly, and I never would have called it failure. I think it depends on what direction one’s life is going.

    “Mike games people alla time.”
    Maybe so. But he too finds the most personal fulfillment in helping others. He’d tell you that’s what he likes about his job. And when they placed him in an impossible position where he could benefit in terms of power and prestige (but took away his positive influence over others and turned it negative), that’s when he decided to quit. Helping others doesn’t (necessarily) mean cutting them a check (that can be kind of unfulfilling and also thankless).

    Rollo: “@Liz, Scott Adams’ problem wasn’t ennui after success. His problem was he’d never understood the true nature of discontent:

    Thanks for the response and link, Rollo. But you too have mentioned that you get a great deal of personal fulfillment from helping others. For example, this forum and your books, and the thank you letters you’ve received (some of which you’ve shared here).

  50. One general question about game. If always approaching, always escalating even though you could get blown is the default alpha position—if done in a non-needy way–doesn’t rejection lower your value? Don’t blow outs lower your value?

    I have a tough time reconciling boldness and rejection.

  51. @ Walawala

    doesn’t rejection lower your value

    If you stop approaching, it will. Continuing to approach despite rejection is a DHV–it shows a Zero Fucks Given mentality. Confidence. Status based on an Iron Frame ™.

    Once a broad accepted my request to dance after 15 consecutive rejections. She was better looking than any of the women who had rejected my invitations to dance. And immediately hit me with two shit tests, the first one being, “You get rejected a lot, don’t you?”

    Notice that I didn’t have to neg her, sexualize, or do anything you normally need to do. My DHV was enough to generate tingle in her. Likely there were tingles all over the bar at seeing me do this, including in the broads who had already rejected my invitation to dance.

  52. @Rollo

    You once made a comment to let you know if I had any questions….well I do have some questions as I try to sort something out. Failed a major shit test with my GF that is a bit troubling.

    Private email provided if that’s something you reply to. rousedone @ gmail

  53. “That’s just the guest house! (I kid)”

    My second wife’s cousins had heard about the big house that her parents had just bought. On their first visit, as they drove up the drive, they took a look and said, “That’s not so big. It’s only a bit bigger than ours.”

    They were looking at the garage.

    “But I wouldn’t even call living paycheck to paycheck and in total squalor “abject failure”.”

    Again you fail completely to understand. I have a positive aversion to your house. I seek not to have it, or anything remotely resembling it. Give it to me and I will dispose of it. If need be at a loss.

  54. “Again you fail completely to understand. I have a positive aversion to your house. I seek not to have it, or anything remotely resembling it. Give it to me and I will dispose of it. If need be at a loss.”

    Ah, got it. (and, fwiw, agreed)
    Where and how we live wasn’t my decision.

  55. scribblerg: “Fyi, I’ve never once heard of a female zillionaire saying such a thing.”

    I’ve never heard a woman who is financially successful or in any position of power and/or authority ever be apologetic about it, including the improper (morally) use of said power/authority, in the latter case.

    Women in high positions, whether by social class, status, wealth, whom they are married to (who have the aforementioned) absolutely shit on everyone else without a second thought. At least men start great philanthropy, or mentor, etc. Not saying there’s no men that aren’t assholes at the top, but AWALT when they are, and if anyone attempts to shame them it’s the “oh right, she’s a bitch because she’s in charge” even though men are routinely criticized when they are viewed to have abused authority.

    Here’s a test, the next time you are walking your dog, or whatever, and a woman almost runs you and your dog over…see if you get the friendly “my bad” gesture, or a cold stare recognizing you are expendable/disposable anyhow.

  56. Thank you Rollo.I have successfully changed my mindset to Alpha.I successful rewired my neurons in my brain.I prefer sticking to the reality in life, i made lifetime goals today of which no matter what the fuck happens am going to achieve them.I realized that a man MUST make his life goal to be his own priority;once he does so he becomes valuable.That fact simply satisifies basic biology.Women desire males with a positive purpose; Any productive purpose that supports our species.Its basic biology that was hidden all along. YOU CANNOT BEAT SCIENCE.Science shows trends…it also respects statistics.It also shows why being realistic matters than being wishful.Human males MUST perform to sustain our species.Females have a burden of reproduction, males must help sustain the foetus once its out of the womb by protecting it and helping in provisioning.It also common sense that protecting the foetus is much more vital than provisioning.That is why BETA is second but still important for the species.Its important to understand that females prefer males with protective ability to provisioning.Hence testosterone comes into place.Stronger males with potential for violence are the preferred candidate for mating whereas males with provisioning capability are second,it serves our species well enough.With this realization its important that a man who wishes to embody both VITAL aspects becomes an UNICORN that is extremely difficult to find.I have fucked a female within 10 minitues of meeting her by basically express my deisre genuinely.The final answer is that humans are wired to be monogamous(efficient parenting).Get a female prefarably virgin, get her to you Frame, and the deal is sealed.You are guaranteed that your offsprings are YOURS.If not you risk losing on your lineage.Of which is a shame since you earned this information after extreme FI conditioning.Finally practicing on positive masculinity has profound effects on women, understand a weakness and solve it;in return expect females to invest on your genetics.I Love economics, is a science too.Read on laws of thermodynamics to understand what am implying.Thank you Rollo, you succefully unplugged me.May your deity bless you.When i get rich i hope you will be alive, i we will catch a beer in African soil.

  57. Male attractiveness is for the most part a social skill founded on a psychological state. Part of what annoys women about game is that the “fake it till you make it” syndrome can succeed in instilling the requisite psychological state in those of us who were not (in their view) naturally meant to have it. (In a world where all right-thinking people, i.e. women, know that such men should just give up and accept their rightful lowly place and settle for fatties. It is so immoral to scramble women’s signals.)

    I am not that worried about “practicing”, because women’s standards for what it means to get hurt by man are pretty drastic: a woman who is not crying buckets (looking like the woman in the last post) has not really tipped the scale.

  58. KFG: when I see shit like that, all I can imagine is that it will absolutely take a major war on American soil to reset. Unbelievable. These kids are so fragile that it’s impossible to imagine them, or our nation standing up to any other nation, especially if we were invaded.

  59. One general question about game. If always approaching, always escalating even though you could get blown is the default alpha position—if done in a non-needy way–doesn’t rejection lower your value? Don’t blow outs lower your value?

    Only if you allow it. Let’s say that I’m in a retail store where I’ve chatted up one of the clerks, an expat from outside the US, who then flits to the back of the store, in order to find an extra shirt in my size. By the way, if I never approached her as a woman rather than has a store-clerk-robot, I wouldn’t have heard her charming accent & couldn’t have had a brief conversation about her home country. We would not have brightened each other’s day for a few minutes. Always approaching means always open to some unexpected, interesting interaction.

    Then I approach the checkout and cheerfully game the 20-something on the register who, despite her piercings, has an interesting face. She cold shoulders me, but I see the expat bustling by out of the corner of my eye, pivot and reaffirm our previous conversation. I retain my good frame, and wish the cold fish a pleasant day, with “Hope you feel better!” on the way out the door. And I did truly hope that she’d feel better, too, that was not some passive-aggressive, butthurt Beta snark, it was a sincere statement.

    I have a tough time reconciling boldness and rejection.

    Boldness means learning to deal with rejection in a confident manner. Only the timid who never approach are never rejected. Any good manual on sales will teach that lesson.

    Let’s go further and assume a nuclear rejection, so what? She’s ruined her day or night, but she can’t dent yours unless you let it be so.

  60. “Bear in mind that most men, Beta men, don’t leave the mental imprint on women that a Red Pill aware, self-MPO man does, to say nothing of a more Alpha man.”

    Damn true

  61. @ Liz

    No need to apologize for making comments and no need for squeamish smileys. You advanced the discussion by bringing up a decent question. Thanks for playing.

    @ Walawa

    No need to question Law #28.

    Enter Action with Boldness

    If you are unsure of a course of action, do not attempt it. Your doubts and hesitations will infect your execution. Timidity is dangerous: Better to enter with boldness. Any mistakes you commit through audacity are easily corrected with more audacity. Everyone admires the bold; no one honors the timid.

    Getting blown out after entering with boldness is simply a way to learn from your mistakes, faults and defects. When you perceive yourself lower value you learn and move on to a higher level if you have desire to learn and are stoic enough to not hide behind Buffers.

    I’m bored watching the football game. And I cosign ScribblerG’s comment–I don’t find the questions worthy of answering.

    The following is not necessarily lecturing to you (as you are an aficionado of game, and know this already) but more speaking to those new to game and/or lurking. It is more expounding on Game being naturally as a man learns and moves on.

    So I proceed to cut and paste.

    Dawg: “The incident with my boss I discount.”
    KFG: “An ideal mental strategy for maintaining comfort, and thus failing to improve.”
    Dawg: “I use that failure experience to learn.”

    Rollo in his link above (from Perfecting the Fantasy):

    Here’s a secret – there’s no such thing as contentment.

    Being content implies that life is static; it’s not, and to be honest, how boring would that be anyway? Life consists of varying states of discontent: why else would you bother doing anything? But the good news is that it’s more fun and more beneficial to manage discontent than to endure contentment (which you can’t anyway since it’s transitory at best). The trick is to understand that there are 2 kinds of discontent – creative and destructive discontent. What you choose to do with that discontent makes all the difference in the world. You will only get what you’ve gotten if you keep doing what you’ve done. Don’t allow yourself to fall back into old destructive habits of dealing with discontent. Don’t bother with anti-depressants and self-help books when a good hard workout at the gym would serve you better.

    The truth is I’m always discontent, but constructively so. The minute you can look yourself in the mirror and be happy with what you see you’re sunk. You can always improve, even after achieving things that were once very important and difficult to attain. Happiness is a state of being, it’s in the ‘doing’ not the ‘having done.’ It’s not about endlessly chasing your tail, it’s about being better than you were the day before.

    From Rollo’s Chapter “Game Changers” in Preventive Medicine:

    One of the most valuable lessons I learned in my time studying psychology and personality studies is that personality is always in flux. Who you are today is not who you will be in another few years.

    For better or worse, personality shifts – sometimes slowly, sometimes suddenly
    – and while you may retain aspects of your personality, mannerisms, talents, past experiences and beliefs into the next iteration of yourself in a new phase of your life, rest assured, you will not be who you are now at any other time.

    All of this influences my ‘Game’ in the now. As before, I don’t play a constant, conscious game of mental chess in my dealings with women (and even the men in my social and professional life), I just live it.
    It’s important to consider that the concept of Game you might be struggling with now was probably some other man’s experience before you encountered it. What is Game for me at 46, will most likely not have the exact same utility for me at 56, but if I stay sharp and learn along the way I’ll develop a new Game for that phase of life.

    In Roosh’s book, Poosy Paradise, he has a quote in it that struck me (I paraphrase):

    “There are a lot of men who tell me they wish they knew back then what they know now, but in all likelihood that knowledge wouldn’t serve them as well as they believe it would. They’d simply make new mistakes (and hope-fully learn from them) based on the things they never had anyexperience of in the now.”

    There is always additional knowledge a man can know even when he possess the highest level of knowledge.

    Heheh, imagine that–quoting Roosh here. I’ll do even worse and quote Neil Strauss from a profile in The Guardian about his latest book:

    It seems like we don’t allow for the possibility of change. But, I mean, we only learn from our mistakes, right?” Is that a word he’d use now for The Game – a mistake?

    Strauss says no. “I wouldn’t be married, or be here, if it wasn’t for the experiences of that book.” He says it’s more a case of coming to have a wincing fascination about some of its content. Feeling a healthy sort of shame. “Like, when you’re 10 years old, you’re embarrassed for running around outside naked when you were a five-year-old, right? And when you’re five, you’re embarrassed that you shit in your pants when you were one. I hope always to regret and be embarrassed by anything I’ve done five or 10 years earlier. I hope to regret and be embarrassed by this discussion five years from now. Because then I know I’m growing and changing.”

    And YaReally said:

    “Thing is if you tried to “skip ahead” and learn that stuff ahead of time, it wouldn’t even have relevance to you. Like you wouldn’t have the reference experiences to really internalize a lot of it so you’re not “ready” to learn it yet anyway. That’s why we have to learn to enjoy the PROCESS over the OUTCOME. Because you will *ALWAYS* be a “student” of the game. Even Tyler views himself as one, same with me. But we’ve learned to enjoy the GAME so it’s not frustrating. I KNOW from experience that if I’m going out regularly, my best night now will be my average night in 6+ months and that 6+ months from now stuff that doesn’t seem relevant or make sense to me will and stuff I’m doing now won’t have the impact it has at the moment and I LOVE that, that means I’m growing. It would be BORING if it wasn’t a challenge and there wasn’t new shit to learn or new paradigms to think about or techniques to try out to mix things up out there.”

    And full circle back to Liz. In regards to the successful man that feels lonely after success, back to one of Deida’s maxims. A Man that Always Defaults to Game knows not to hope for a completion in life.

    Stop Hoping for a Completion of Anything in Life

    Most men make the error of thinking that one day it will be done. They think, “If I can work enough, then one day I could rest.” Or, “One day my woman will understand something and then she will stop complaining.” Or, “I’m only doing this now so that one day I can do what I really want with my life.” The masculine error is to think that eventually things will be different in some fundamental way. They won’t. It never ends. As long as life continues, the creative challenge is to tussleplay, play game, and make love fuck with the present moment while giving your unique gift.

    Hope I didn’t screw up my blockquote HTMLing.

  62. @ Caveclown

    Props for honoring a man’s way and living on your edge today. Good will come of it. You will be better at being a man.

    “I’m in the middle of a nihilistic existential quandary, so beats the fuck out of me.

    I’m either on the edge of a mindset breakthrough that will bring me to the next level, or I’m a step away from failure. One of those.”

    I’m still bored at halftime of the football game. A reiterated chapter (I think I might’ave posted this before) from Deida:

    Know Your Real Edge and Don’t Fake it

    It is honorable for a man to admit his fears, resistance, and edge of prac- tice. It is simply true that each man has his limit, his capacity for growth, and his destiny. But it is dishonorable for him to lie to himself or others about his real place. He shouldn’t pretend he is more enlight- ened than he is—nor should he stop short of his actual edge. The more a man is playing his real edge, the more valuable he is as good company for other men, the more he can be trusted to be authentic and fully pre- sent. Where a man’s edge is located is less important than whether he is actually living his edge in truth, rather than being lazy or deluded.

    Pick an area of your life, perhaps your intimate relationship, your career, your relationship with your children, or your spiritual practice. For instance, you are currently doing something to earn a living. Where do your fears stop you from making a larger contribution to mankind, from earning a higher income, or from earning money in a more creative and enjoyable way? If you were absolutely fearless, would you be earning a living in exactly the same way as you are now? Your edge is where you stop short, or where you compromise your fullest gift, and, instead, cater to your fears.

    Have you lost touch with the fears that are limiting and shaping your income and style of livelihood? If you have deluded yourself and feel that you are not afraid, then you are lying to yourself. All men are afraid, unless they are perfectly free. If you cannot admit this, you are pretending to yourself, and to others. Your friends will feel your fear, even if you do not. Thus, they will lose trust in you, knowing you are deluding yourself, lying to yourself, and are therefore likely to lie to them, consciously or unconsciously.

    Or, perhaps you are very aware of your fears: your fear to take risks, your fear of failing, or your fear of succeeding. Perhaps you are comfortable with your life, and you fear the lifestyle change that might accompany a change in career, even though the new career will be closer to what you really want to do with your life. Some men fear the feeling of fear and therefore don’t even approach their edge. They choose a job they know they can do well and easily, and don’t even approach the fullest giving of their gift. Their lives are relatively secure and comfortable, but dead. They lack the aliveness, the depth, and the inspirational energy that is the sign of a man living at his edge. If you are this kind of man who is hanging back, working hard perhaps, but not at your real edge, other men will not be able to trust that you can and will help them live at their edge and give their fullest gift.

    As an experiment, describe your edge with respect to your career out loud to yourself. Say something like, “I know I could be earning more money, but I am too lazy to put in the extra hours it would take. I know that I could give more of my true gift, but I am afraid that I may not succeed, and then I will be a penniless failure. I’ve spent 15 years developing my career, and I’m afraid to let go of it and start fresh, even though I know that I spend most of my life doing things I have no real interest in doing. I could be making money in more creative ways, but I spend too much time watching TV rather than being creative.”

    Honor your edge. Honor your choices. Be honest with yourself about them. Be honest with your friends about them. A fearful man who knows he is fearful is far more trustable than a fearful man who isn’t aware of his fear. And a fearful man who still leans into his fear, living at his edge and putting his gift out from there, is more trustworthy and more inspirational than a fearful man who hangs back in the comfort zone, unwilling to even experience his fear on a day to day level. A free man is free to acknowledge his fears, without hiding them, or hiding from them. Live with your lips pressed againstengaging your fears, kissing embracing your fears, and neither pulling back nor aggressively violating them.

  63. Sjf, thanks.

    I’ve realized that I am living far short of my edge.

    Far short.

    No more.

    Painful as fuck though.

    I’m working on embracing the pain.

  64. I created a fake online profile with a picture of a guy who looks like me. The goal was just to practice escalating over text, which I would use on a girl between when I got a girl’s number and Day 2. Since I was doing this with girls I had never met, they all of course flaked once it started to get sexual, but I still got a lot of good practice. Each dashed line separates a different girl.


    (9:14pm) ME: So, how long have you been an undercover Russian spy?

    (9:34pm) HER: Welp that’s original 🙂 lol

    (9:37pm) ME: Aha! So you are a Russian spy

    I knew it.

    Now, are you the kind of spy who sneaks into buildings and steals shit, or do you seduce men to steal their secrets?

    (9:48pm) HER: lol youre funny

    (10:01pm) ME: I’m not funny at all. This is serious business. As a redblooded american, I must turn you in to the President. I’m headed over right now to arrest you with my pink fuzzy handcuffs.

    (10:02pm) HER: Unfortunately I’m not at home 🙁 You’ll have to catch me some other time.


    (10:30pm) ME: Okay I’ve got this package I need to deliver to some Mexicans. It’s not important what’s in it. But I need you to drive me to them.

    Also, I will need a scale, some ski masks, and a couple of AK-47s.

    You can get that for me right?

    (8:02am) HER: Hmm I think a bus would be the wisest choice, pay with cash, less of a trail. . .I have no AKs, would ARs suffice?

    (4:06pm) ME: You’ll have to pick me up before we meet the Mexicans. Be sure to wear some sexy lingerie as I’ll need you to seduce a couple of prison guards.

    If you have an easily concealable knife, bring that too.

    (5:05pm) HER: haha, very original I have to say. So does your job in sales have anything to do with those packages 😉

    (5:39pm) ME: You would want to know more about my package wouldn’t you

    No, I’m not sending you dick pics. Pervert.

    (5:50pm) HER: Oh my goodness that’s totally not what I meant but good to know you aren’t that kind of guy! I was just trying to ask what kind of sales you were in to start a get to know you conversation. Sorry!

    I think that’s the first tme I’ve ever been called a perv. . .

    (9:30pm) ME: And it won’t be the last time : P

    I sell hopes, dreams, and puppy dog tails


    ME: Okay I’ve got this package I need to deliver to some Mexicans. It’s not important what’s in it. But I need you to drive me to them.

    Also, I will need a scale, some ski masks, and a couple of AK-47s.

    You can get that for me right?

    (9:30pm) HER: Lmao

    (9:40pm) ME: You’ll have to pick me up before we meet the Mexicans. Be sure to wear some sexy lingerie as I’ll need you to seduce a couple of prison guards.

    If you have an easily concealable knife, bring that too.

    (9:41pm) HER: Lol gotcha. Anymore requests?

    (9:57pm) ME: No, I’m not going to get it on with you, three hookers, and a goat. I know how your mind works. Pervert.

    (12:40pm) HER: Lmao

    (4:14pm) ME: Who did you dress up as on Halloween?

    (4:15pm) HER: I didn’t. What about you?

    (4:19pm) ME: You didn’t dress up? Nerd

    (4:19pm) HER: Lmao your mean

    (4:26pm) ME: I’m not really all that mean. At least not until I pin you to the bed with my fuzzy pink handcuffs.

    So what did you do on halloween if you didn’t dress up?

    This one was just for the lols

    ME: “Im waiting for the person who pursues me. The one who will make any ordinary moment seem magical.”

    What you’re looking for is called LSD

    You’re welcome

    HER: What you’re looking for is called fuck off

    You’re welcome

    ME: lol

    This would have been a perfect time, if I met her in person, to turn to her friends and ask “Is she really like this? Oh, only since she broke up with her last boyfriend? What was he like? Oh I can see how she’d get so upset.”

    So then she’d say “Guys, STOP talking about me” and then you can get her back into things. But that’s the problem with doing stuff online. Once they decide they don’t want to talk to you anymore, there’s almost no way to get them back.

    (8:17pm) ME: Quick! I need 12 LSD laced chocolate cupcakes. There’s no time to explain.

    You can make those right?

    (11:28am) HER: Got it. Got the money?

    (9:03pm) ME: Yeah I got it. I’ll give you the location in a minute. make sure you wear a bikini under a trench coat when you give me the cupcakes. I’ll explain later.

    Also, I will need a goat and an Elvis impersonator.

    (10:10pm) HER: Whaaaaat? A goat?

    (10:17pm) ME: No, it is NOT for having a wild party with me, you, three hookers, and the goat. I know how your mind works. Pervert.


    (4:48pm) ME: Who did you dress up as on Halloween?

    (8:20pm) HER: No one lol myself

    (9:06pm) ME: You didn’t dress up? lol nerd

    (9:09pm) HER: no nerd dress up

    (9:21pm) ME: Whatever helps you sleep at night lol. You’ll have to dress up as a sexy maid for me sometime to make up for that.

    So if you didn’t dress up, what did you do for Halloween?


    (9:46am) ME: Okay I’ve got this package I need to deliver to some Mexicans. It’s not important what’s in it. But I need you to drive me to them.

    Also, I will need a scale, some ski masks, and a couple of AK-47s.

    You can get that for me right?

    (9:58am) HER: I have everything you need in my trunk. Never leave home w/o it. What’s my cut? And can we order some pizza for the car ride? A girl has her needs, you know.

    (10:59am) ME: Damn girl, you must have a lot of junk in yo trunk. Don’t worry about the pizza, I know how to take care of a girls needs.

    Who’d you dress up as for Halloween?

    (12:03pm) HER: Too late, I already ordered and ate the pizza for breakfast : /

    I was a cat. . .a black cat. Cat woman if you will. What were you? Let me guess, a lumberjack?

    (12:04pm) ME: Psh, wrong. Guess again.

    (12:05pm) HER: Mmm, send me a pic of yor costume then let me guess! : D

    (12:12pm) ME: Okay, just a sec

    (12:20pm) ME: Here you go — (sent her a picture of Lena Durnham in her underwear)

    (12:20pm) HER: Lmao. Boo from Orange is the new black?????

    (12:25pm) ME: No. Not AT ALL. You’re really bad at this : P

    Lets try something different. Why don’t you send me a picture of your costume instead.


    (9:39am) ME: Okay I’ve got this package I need to deliver to some Mexicans. It’s not important what’s in it. But I need you to drive me to them.

    Also, I will need a scale, some ski masks, and a couple of AK-47s.

    You can get that for me right?

    (9:47am) HER: Haha. Before I had a teaching license, maybe. But I enjoy my job too much to risk losing it. Sorry!

    (11:54am) ME: The package contains. . .churros. Just churros. Warm, delicious churros. That’s it.

    What the hell did you do before you became a teacher?

    (11:57am) HER: haha you probably don’t want to know 🙂

    (12:07pm) ME: Oh, I already know. You were an undercover agent for the USSR. You seduced high ranking US generals to take their secrets. But then you fell madly in love with a traveling circus clown, and decided to reliquish your evil ways, defect to america, and become a teacher.

    (12:11pm) HER: Yes. And the clown broke my heart. So here I am on this online dating site trying to fix it.

    (12:20pm) ME: Who did you dress up as for Halloween?

    (12:30pm) HER: A teacher

    (1:01pm) ME: So you didn’t really dress up at all did you? Lol, nerd

    (1:02pm) HER: haha, I am a nerd. You’re right. I embrace that.

    I’m still working on this girl, she hasn’t flaked yet.

  65. @ Hank Holiday

    What ever you do, man, don’t become her time whore: someone she uses to pass the time of day when she’s bored at work, home, traveling in between, etc. This is a lot of attention she’s devouring.

  66. Yet, I believe that there is such a thing as too much game. When you game a young shapely woman until she strips, draws the curtains, and dances for you naked by the window with the lights on as you video tape her? And you haven’t even told her to do it? I have not done the threesome with a goat thing yet, but I am sure with game one can pull it off. Of course game works, and is powerful. Therefore, it should be tempered with moderation. Game is amoral, but its application can be exploitative. I am not being a blue pill pussy here. Some girls are bitches. Those, you game to fucking hell. Others are still on their way to bitchiness, make their memories on their way there tolerable.

  67. @Liz – It’s possible that you could have bought Apple stock and made money on it, and also be parroting a Blue Pill trope. Just to be clear…

  68. @Kira – Suggestion: Try breaking your comment up into several paragraphs, it makes it much more readable.

    You said something that really grabbed me though. “practicing on positive masculinity has profound effects on women”. Perhaps this will be how the bottom up change I’d love to see could begin and grow? Women do change how they behave around me after a while. In a sense they just calm down and are less worried and volatile. Being in a pleasant frame seems to soothe the neurosis of women. Whatever, great comment.

  69. @Liz – Fyi, I second SJF’s comment, I was not trying to shut you up nor insult you. You generally advance the conversation here and are clearly not here to “sort us idiots out”, contrary to the approach of most women who comment here. I accepted that this is not a male space a while ago, so I no longer hector women to GTFO of here. I only denigrate cuntery here, and you clearly don’t do that.

    That said, I still think what you presented is a trope intended to shame and denigrate male financial success (not by you though, you were just reporting on it). I happen to work in a business with many self-made wealthy people – tech. The only people wrecked by the money are those who were fucked up in the head beforehand. In my world, such wealth is usually realized suddenly via an acquisition or a company going public, and it’s like like winning lotto. One day they are schmoes living paycheck to paycheck, the next day they have 14 million in the bank. Every one goes through a major shift when this happens as the cranking down of desperation means you can allow higher order concerns to be addressed. When I had my own scaled down experience of this, I turned back to music in a big way and began writing in earnest as I had set these passions aside in the main to focus on creating financial security. Maslow’s hierarchy of need and all that is how I see it.

    Perhaps I’ve mangled your meaning? What I was focused on wrt your comment is the man who is filled with regret or guilt and seeks to compensate for his success, like Scott Adams, by overt displays of “goodness” as some kind of needed recompense for his greedy behavior. I would see this from time to time as well – rarely – but it was only men, and they would self-destruct in many ways. I think this is part of how an FI world seeks to shame male power and control it. Think of Bill Gates – the epic Beta billionaire. He makes me puke. Contrast him with Larry Ellison who collects mansions as a hobby and helps transform stodgy events like the Americas Cup into thrilling hi-tec expositions of brilliance and speed with the new class of foiling catamarans. Fyi, Larry Ellison is a world class asshole too, but he doesn’t make me puke. I think Bill Gates dick has gone turtle and hasn’t poked its head out since 1995, and just listening to him speak is revolting for me. He has made himself into a world class “philanthropist”, lol, while most of what he’s done hasn’t made much of a difference. Now he’s actually criticizing capitalism, lol – maybe his wife will take the whole dick down her throat now, finally…

    As I said, my experience was (smaller scale payday which is gone by now, sigh…) that I was plagued by self-loathing and low self-worth, and was truly “other focused” as that had been beaten into me by an abusive Irish Catholic upbringing. To think of yourself first in my family was a sin of the first order…I think this is different from Blue Pill thinking though, in the sense that I was denigrated nonstop by my father for my entire childhood. My situation was pathological, and the Blue Pill world lay atop it like some self-loathing accelerator. Yes, I was always socially dominant and aggressive, but I became oppositional to authority but also reacted positively to it all in some ways in that it made me motivate myself and set my own goals. My father’s goal for me? “I can’t wait until you are 18 so I can throw you out on your ass and watch you fail.” – verbatim. One of the niceties of having this kind of Dad is that you truly have no “pressure” to succeed or set of goals laid out for you by him. Talk about making lemonade of lemons 🙂 I also decided at a young age to never take shit from anyone. Never. That was not a great decision. One of the great gifts of the Red Pill for me is learning to use my aggression strategically and more sparingly.

    Hope that makes more sense. .

  70. @SJF – You must know Nassim Taleb is a huge fan of Seneca and Stoicism, yes? Great comment above.

    @Rollo – Living on one’s edge is the way of an actualized man for sure, brilliant, epic, amazing comment. Thanks for it!

    @Cave – The nihilism should be a temporary stage. My experience of it came down to being uncomfortable living life as a selfish prick. At some level, I found putting my needs and wants first to be wrong. But over time, it has become reflexive and to my surprise, people respect me more now, not less. What sealed the deal is seeing other men who live that way, as I once did, and realizing how pathetic it is.

    I wonder, when is the last time you did something purely for yourself? You have your own business – can you take three months off and go do something that is purely about you? No family, no business, just you? Hike a long trail, take a motorcycle tour or apprentice with a cobbler? Lol, I mean it. Maybe you just want to rebuild a car engine – who knows? A man must find that which is “his”, that which makes him who he is, and pound himself against that thing. It shapes him and refines him and makes him a man. A man without volition, without that lively, playful, creative and driven spirit is no man at all.

    Performing my original music is like this for me. I played out Fri night and I just gave it my all, held nothing back. It was a short warmup set for a band and I fucking brought the house down. I was in flow and living the songs as I played them – this is the gift mastery gives. There is a center to me which developed by doing this, and rock climbing and taking my motorcyle up to 145 mph and writing two books – you get my point, yeah? Find out where you edge is indeed. Where do you give up on your dreams? Where do you give up on your joy? Throwing your complete self at something is delicious and freeing.

  71. asd:

    “You get rejected a lot, don’t you?”
    How did you respond?

    Dark Triad Man:
    “When you realize they are not disparate, but that both are the same division by zero – you will have attained mastery.”
    Can you elaborate? I see failure v. success as an either/or proposition.

    I have been slowly learning Game for two years, and I am beginning to see its application across most aspects of life. Fascinating.

  72. @chronicalibash:

    Flip a coin. Heads is success. Tails is failure.

    Did your flip fail? Flip it again. Flip it enough times and you’ll have a pile of failures, and a pile of successes. No single flip will have any meaning any more.

    It is only when you make everything ride on one particular flip that it becomes a “do or die” event; so don’t do that.

  73. ScribblerG,

    Yes to the Stoicism inherent in Taleb’s writing. I bring the topic up because I heard both Julien and Tyler from RSD mentioning “antifragility” in regards to Game in videos about mindset recently.

    I was enlightened to the additional value of Stoicism in regards to red pill awareness while reading Taleb a couple months ago. Life’s too short and there are too many grand things at one’s disposal to engage in and waste time with nihilism.

    Stoicism is built upon a concept of Optionality. Low downside and unlimited upside.

    Red pill awareness was was not a bitter pill for me. Stoicism–to live life “as if you could lose everything tomorrow”, to have a mindset that even if you haven’t bottomed out, any man is one step away from bottoming out on any simple twist of fate– gives one the courage to understand at the same time that with the proper mindset that there is unlimited upside to one’s existence. Living on the cliff’s edge, accepting that fact that sure it is a potentially long way down, but soaring like an eagle above that cliff is possible if you are inspired. Inspiration that comes from an internal mindset, not from someone else (and especially not from another woman in your life).

    Real life today has too many buffers, too much government for the sake of government and too much much needless feminine imperative as to limit upside potential by the restrictions of buffers, laws and social conventions. That which gives you safety (in the form of Buffers) truly limits your upside potential. Throw off what is holding you back and you have unlimited upside potential. Start with nothing (or understand that you are one step away from nothing) and there is only upwards to go.

    That’s why Larry Ellison can move on while Scott Adams is tripped up in success. Larry gets it. Scott didn’t. (And I’m not sure Roosh was given the memo either).

    Nihilism is antithetical to Red Pill Awareness and Game when you have a Stoic attitude (and especially when wealth comes your way). So always default to Game. With it, and a DGAF attitude, there is unlimited upside.

    Sorry for the philosophical ramblings. I just felt like banging my fingers on the keyboard.

  74. “One general question about game. If always approaching, always escalating even though you could get blown is the default alpha position—if done in a non-needy way–doesn’t rejection lower your value? Don’t blow outs lower your value?

    I have a tough time reconciling boldness and rejection.”

    And the answer to “Don’t blowouts lower your value?” is answered by the concept of Optionality. An option (in the stock market) gives you for a small price, limited downside, with unlimited upside.

    A blowout only lowers your value by a little. Not taking the chance in the first place guarantees you will not have the option for unlimited upside.

  75. @KFG et al – A few thoughts on risk…

    – Taking a risk that has a negative payoff which stops you from taking any more risks is to be avoided. Taking a 1% chance of dying should be avoided as death takes away all future chances. This is also a way of thinking about “fragility”. Example: If you have lots of debt (based on assets as collateral) an economic downturn can wipe you out while having low debt could mean that the same downturn only means your net worth dips for a while.

    – Another way of saying the above is to be wary of asymmetric payoffs – where the downside is far worse than the upside. In fact, smart risktakers do the opposite, they take risks where the payoffs exceed the downside.

    – Lower the stakes on the risks you take. Big bets are what generate big losses. A much more common pattern of success is taking a series of connected but smaller risks, where each “bet” has smaller stakes. High stakes risks are dealt with psychologically and socially differently than low stakes risks as well, and I think people are worse at managing them.

    Example: I used to work for startups but in fact they are so volatile that even while I was “successful” in most of those roles, the failure rate and volatility was so high that it wrecked my career simply by being unlucky – I had three short stints in a row that blew up (B-E round expansions) and suddenly the headhunters stopped calling. Now I do it as a consultant, and work with 6 small startups rather than as an employee for 1. 1 or 2 are always coming and going, but I can do lots of things I can’t do as an employee. I can move my commitment/fees up and down based on need and value and my appetite. I can lose a client and not be damaged in terms of future earnings/reputation much compared to losing a job. I have diversification on my side, and this anticipates the risk. I also take equity in all of them, knowing that only 1-2 in 10 will pay off in any meaningful way. Another way to do this would be to make 10 100k investments in real estate in different geographies versus putting 1 million into a single commercial real estate investment.

    – Detachment from outcomes results from proper risk management and taking risks that you can survive. Ignoring big risks and losses is the way to ruin, not success and is dangerous. If you are losing sleep over a risk you are taking, consider that you aren’t taking risks wisely. Our selection bias focuses on the exceptional person who takes one big risk and it works out – Zuckerberg dropping out of Harvard and Facebook going big. While you may be tempted to think it was all his genius that is classic retrospective justification and cherrypicking. Consider that if he didn’t meet Sean Carter that you might never know who he is.

    – Mitigating downside risk is crucial so you are not knocked out of the game permanently. Example, contrary to what you might think, rock climbing is the safest high risk sport their is. The reason is because climbing a sheer rock face at any height over 15 feet is quite dangerous and over 30 feet is a lethal risk. So, the focus on safety is extreme. Duplication/triplication of everything is common – risk mitigation. And remember, it’s a lethal risk so it’s not just the risk of falling, it’s the risk of being taken out of the game entirely. So you can take big risks if you know how to mitigate them and in fact, your mastery of wealth generation should be based on a risk-based approach to where and how you place your bets.

    Detachment – I understand what KFG means though. Being detached from outcomes is just being realistic. The truth is that once you’ve taken an action, the outcome is out of your control in many settings in life. It’s delusional to think you can control outcomes so detaching from outcomes is crucial to emotional and psychological stability. Detaching from positive outcomes is even more liberating, I used the Sedona Method to do just that – and feel even better after releasing pride and joy from a positive outcome.

    Attachment is at the center of much of our misery in life, so we are best without it to the degree we can do so. Letting go quickly is crucial and is often the best we can do, but still yields amazing results.

    However, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a huge utility to understanding the impacts of outcomes and forecasting/betting in smart ways with respect to them.

  76. @DarkTriad – I just subbed…Seems like the next step for me. The whole idea used to piss me off/scare me. I’m ready to step up to my true power. I’ll keep you guys posted here. Looks very interesting.

  77. I spent much of yesterday completely frustrated with myself and having a self-induced pity party. Pissed at myself for allowing rooted blue pill habits to kick in. Self-loathing, yes even some of that. For all of you guys who live the Red Pill daily with strength and determination I envy you as it sucks to fail a major shit test. It just fucking sucks.

    Got my ass outside first thing this morning with coffee, the cool crisp air and sunrise as I knew some clarity would come with that after wallowing with the my Friday night.

    I posted my email yesterday asking Rollo to contact me privately so I could ask questions without having to face all of you and read comments as I feared SJF and others would rip me a new a asshole for being a douche. I realized asking for a private consult also seemed a bit dramatic and blue pill.

    As the sun rises and owls in my woods hoot, it occurred to me I should master some fucking courage instead of being a pussy. Maybe those owls were telling me to be roused and wake the fuck up…. Would have been a waste to read Donovan’s The Way of Men and not consider having courage to face my conundrum in front of the tribe, which is all of you.

    I’ve been copying key notes and diddies into my journal since swallowing the red pill. It frustrates the fuck out of me when I urp up the red pill and blue habits return. I fucking hate it!

    I think this is what connected the dots for me, fucking owls.

    From @Rollo:
    “This is one of the problems that a man in an LTR / marriage has after serious betaization – the woman has surely become used to being able to dominate him in all the usual female ways, and when he begins changing she will, she must, intensify all shit testing and bad behavior. Because she “knows” the “old him”.

    Two months ago I broke things off with my LTR girlfriend in the midst of significant internal turmoil trying to recognize what I was willing to tolerate, create new boundaries, build Frame and have a shred of self- respect. The GF and I both have problems when we drink alcohol together and I insisted a break to sort through our issues. I told her I needed time off from the booze and her, and challenged her to do the same. I had already begun my 90-day no fap or porn self-mastery challenge. Next weekend is 90 days for me and I’ve been rock solid perfect with that new mastery. Got my brain chemistry largely rebalanced as a result, thankfully.

    After a few weeks of me detaching from the GF and spending more on this site than with her, I allowed myself to begin talking with her to evaluate her seriousness about the drinking and if she would agree that we could make our LTR work. She was all for it and at the same time whole heartedly embraced this new me of self-mastery and shedding of the beta. She had never had a masculine role model in her life that she respected and encouraged me to keep working. I told her it would be a difficult transition and that she likely would not like some of the changes. I asked for patience and time. She was good with that, welcomed it.

    So late Friday night after I got home from working my side business project she gives me a booty call. I noticed right away she seemed different, overly giggling and goofy. When I mentioned that she said she had gone out drinking with friends. I listened to her explain that she was telling me this so I knew she was drunk before coming over for booty. She was basically being honest so I could decide for myself to get some drunk booty from her or stay home. Blabbed a bit about how happy she was not to have my restrictions and rules about drinking. Then said her counselor had even told her that she shouldn’t even bother with telling me about when she drinks or goes out with friends. That was odd…

    I caved, with some reluctance and went to see her, fulling expecting things to go poorly. Things went fine, she wanted rough sex and to be manhandled. I gave it to her, spent the night and repeated with the same thing when we woke up. I did not mention the drinking and avoided any serious talk, was just all about sex. No she was not in estrus, that was last week.

    I failed in that I should have declined the booty call and simply said maybe another time when your sober. It was late, caught by surprise and lost all my Frame. I felt like two months worth of work had been wasted because I wanted the juicy pussy. She worked her own dread on me with mention of meeting old friends at the bar and how much fun she had without me.

    I do not think she wants to go back to our old drinking ways, and we agreed that maybe in the future we can consume alcohol now and then, IF we’ve got it under control. Repeatedly during serious discussions she has said she is okay with a LTR and no alcohol. But that was before her counselor helped open her eyes to my dread and aloofness.

    Based on putting 2+2 together I think her counselor had helped her realize how I was using dread on her lately. She told me her last session had focused on me and this new detached aloofness I was practicing. She wants me to commit and get back to what we had before with a full time LTR.

    I think I was using too much dread and she realized it. I over emphasized my options and how often other women were often flirting with me and that there was an abundance of pussy options. Me thinks she had enough of it, or that two can play the same game. More importantly she had been used to two years or so of my blue pill ways. She knew whether consciously or unconsciously, that in the past I had a case of oneitis.

    What bothers me is throwing the drinking in my face. I absolutely want a boundary with that and believe alcohol was a major negative factor in our relationship. Neither of us are alcoholics but have problems after drinking. She is an admitted binge drinker. I felt like she was saying whatever, I’m going to do what I want, but still want a LTR. Thus the shit testing.

    I also wondered about the Alpha fucks/beta bucks aspect. She for sure goes ape how I have changed with sex and giving her a strong doses of alpha game. She comments frequently about how in the past 6 weeks or so she loves the new me. Especially when I’m nailing her into submission with doggie or pinned up against the wall. BUT….. I believe she still wants/needs the beta for all else. Not the bucks as she knows I’m financially fucked due to alimony and child support. I believe she wants the typical beta shit that accompanies all other aspects of an LTR though, if that makes sense.

    I guess I’m confused over how much time does it take to work an LTR and slowly build my new Frame into this for what I want out of the relationship? It’s more of a self-directed question but asking anyhow. I know what Rollo has said, these things most often do not work in my case. I do think there is significant hope as she does want and embraces the new masculine Me, but she struggles adjusting to it and I’ve layered it on way too heavy. She has firmly said I am much more of a man than her ex as well as her father and that she wants/craves a strong male companion. For years she has been used to steamrolling men and not used to what I’ve been trying to apply.

    Trying to learn how to establish and apply my Frame with more subtlety is MUCH more challenging than I thought it was going to be. Rollo’s old posts have been insightful on much of this. I’ve got a ton of TRM bookmarks for continued reference.

    Also questioning the failed shit test and if that seems pretty standard par for the course? Surely many of you have experience with this…

    While writing this post she texted me asking if she could come over for snuggles and a booty call. Replied I had some writing and work to do and was going to pass.

    I guess for me the MOST important thing this morning was that I found the courage to post all this here, in front of the tribe. Had I not read Donovan and started understanding some of that I would have pussy footed around with all this. If I come off as weak, so be it. I have much to learn. I know I need to not only learn the intellectual part, but how to apply it. I’m trying to make a go of this, I have to. It’s a fucking struggle and failing shit tests sucks big time.

  78. Re: Game and getting blown out – My guess is you aren’t looking for and generating interest as carefully as you should be if this is happening to you a lot. I don’t game women with the purpose of fucking them (only one area of my life where I apply social intelligence) unless they show interest. You might as well try to fuck a brick wall and claim you “got blown out” if there is no interest.

    Measure twice, cut once. And oh yeah, if you aren’t generating interest you should probably work on being and demonstrating higher value. This is hard work and starts with internal game. Are you the catch or not?

    @KFG – Relevant comment on gaming higher SMV women – this is how one hardens one’s frame. I was gaming a petite blonde spinner fri night who was quite obviously the fucktoy of another musician at the event I played. You could see her resist me as the old guy, but just using eye contact and tone of voice I could see her physical, limbic, hindbrained respond to me, despite “herself”. The guy, who is say 30, good looking but a “haunted soul” type was amused but also activated. I amogged him with love of course. It was a ridiculous situation for me to be gaming – hot spinner half my age that i don’t know at all with her BF/fuckbuddy who has higher SMV than me – fuck it. I can make even that work now

    @YaReally – Holy shit: Eye Contact, lasering in, holding – this makes for a sexual context from the outset. Speed of speech: Adding in pauses between phrases, lingering on words, deepening the eye contact, it’s like fucking hypnosis for chicks. Deepening my voice: Doing the first two along with this, putting more bass into my voice, it’s like instant sploosh for women. Huge. Works all the time, ya have to be careful with it actually, lol. I tried it out for the fuck of it on the blonde spinner I mentioned in the previous paragraph as she initially gave me the “old guy, eww” vibe but she couldn’t help herself once I lasered in and put the bass in. With her man right there. Of course, I had just come off of a great musical set so my confidence was on 9 and I was in-flow already. Funniest, I had jammed with the BF at one point at a showcase thing we were both doing but had forgotten his name/who he was. He remembered me, but me? He wasn’t important to me in anyway so I never thought of him again. We actually went out for drinks as a group etc, which he reminded me of and I was like “Oh yeah”. Being a selfish prick pays off in so many ways. This wan’t an act, I just only focus on that which matters to me now, everything else is just noise. His woman notices that he’s qualifying himself to me a bit an suddenly she turns her body to me and is listening – all effortless and without thought as Rollo describes.

    Of course, my mindset is so solid now and my natural social dominance has been tempered by wisdom and a calmer demeanor, so I’m using skills I’ve had my whole life but more intelligently. Like an order of magnitude more intelligently. So I’m DHVing effortlessly and bringing frame in non-stop, the escalation via eye/speed/tone is like putting nitro on all that to sexualize the interaction. Crazy. I think it may be a nice winter after all, he he.

  79. @Scribbler: “However, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a huge utility to understanding the impacts of outcomes and forecasting/betting in smart ways with respect to them.”

    Obviously I used a simple, well understood, 50/50 model, just to get the idea across.

    I am not an adrenaline junkie. Frankly, I dislike the “rush,” which makes me generally risk averse, or, to put it in the vernacular, a pussy.

    Nonetheless, I often take risks that leave onlookers quaking just to watch. All my risks, however, are well calculated and more often than not the reason observers fear just to watch me is because I understand the risks far better than they do; i.e. it isn’t half so risky as they think.

    And if a risk goes bad on me I don’t freak out, I just get on with it. I’ve been known to hold jovial conversations while being strapped to a backboard. At that point things are a done deal and I’m relaxed. Fear is a mode of anticipation. It’s also the mind killer, which in and of itself increases risk.

    And if you approach a woman what is the worst that you can generally expect to happen? She blows you out. Big fucking deal. Move on to another.

    The real risk only begins when she says “Yes.

  80. @ Chroniclibash

    “You get rejected a lot, don’t you?”
    How did you respond?

    Lasered her, amused mastery grin, said, “Tough crowd” in a matter of fact tone of voice. Smashed the 5h1t test, which is why she immediately hit me with a 2nd test, “Are you married”…”Yes”…”You’re not wearing a ring” (3rd 5h1t test because I didn’t pass the second–correct response was something like “not to a perv like you” with a cocky grin)…”Doesn’t fit anymore” (another fail because I answered her question directly–better answer was “I keep it in my red bikini briefs”)…”I don’t dance with married men”…I smiled, ignored it and passed (because of my solid nonverbals)…we kept dancing.

    Naturals like me rely more on solid nonverbals than on clever Game. Clever Game is more effective.

  81. @scribblerg
    “A man without volition, without that lively, playful, creative and driven spirit is no man at all.”

    Be gentle man it reads as if you are growing slowly.

    “The real risk only begins when she says “Yes.”
    The funny part is rejection is self growth. But when your accepted even in a sexual way… It creates a huge level to management.

  82. Hesitation to use Game:

    The girl I’ve been seeing has been giving me an ultimatum: “If you won’t be my boyfriend then I can’t see you anymore.”

    I’ve mentioned passively and directly potential interest in fucking other women down the road, and she says that she can’t do that. That’s unacceptable to her.

    However, she’s continuing to see me. She’s told me this has been the best sex of her life. I’ve only been with 4 women, but that’s given me at least some reference point, and having seen a ton of porn, I honestly I can’t imagine a woman being more into sex. It’s been extremely intense, very vocal, talking dirty, aggressive, etc. It’s everything I ever could’ve hoped sex could be and it’s been a lot of fun so far.

    Reminds me of what Rollo says about passionate sex being born from anxiety/tension/insecurity. On multiple occasions, after she got VERY upset with me for implying that I don’t want to be exclusive with her, we had mind blowing sex within an hour.

    And despite all her insecurities, and how she says she doesn’t know how to handle this or what to do, etc., she’s still seeing me.

    Blue Pill Panic: thinking that I HAVE to commit to her immediately or she’ll leave. This has caused me a lot of distress. I’ve been managing to keep this under control but it’s very distinct when it comes up.

    I’ve been fighting it tooth and nail. Staying calm around her, and simply reassuring her that I’m not going to leave her, that I’ve really been enjoying our time together, and I just need to focus on my life right now. That being someone’s boyfriend would put too much stress on me, be too much of a burden, that it’s too much for me to process right now —

    — and that’s the truth. I don’t think of this as “Gaming” her, but in a way that’s what I’m doing, simply as a result of being my own MPO. Not once so far with her have I felt inauthentic or like I was being manipulative, which is nice. I feel more whole than I ever have.

    The temptation to just give in and make her my girlfriend is strong. Sometimes it seems crazy and I can’t imagine being exclusive and passing up other opportunities on the side. Sometimes I can’t imagine being with a girl in anything but an open relationship — have a main squeeze but a mutual agreement that it’s OK to see other people on the side.

    I’ve even thought that I might be off to a good start having laid down some serious Dread — not intentionally, but just because I really don’t know if I could commit to ANY girl at the expense of pursuing other girls on the side —

    — and that has been tripping me up a lot.

    It’s very tempting for me to abandon Game and just go back to Blue Pill idealism. Deep down I still feel like I’d love a relationship, security, and feel like I could be happy like that.

    I’d love to have a girlfriend and lay that to rest, and then focus on building myself and my life up with a relationship in the background as a foundation. AKA, complete reversion to Blue Pill thinking, or at best, Purple Pill.

    This shit isn’t easy. I’m constantly struggling with myself. Obviously I can’t explain TRP to her: I just have to ‘get it.’

    So I’ve just been dangling the carrot. In reality, I feel like I have no other choice than to Game her like that, although not for one minute have I felt like I’ve ever “Gamed” her. It’s just a natural consequence of me beginning to put myself first and consider my options before hers.

    Do I want to get crushed a few years down the road? It could even be a year, or it could even be a few months after committing. Do I want to pass up other opportunities with women? Do I want to open myself up to getting abandoned and taken advantage of? Walk into a situation where she could get bored of me and then move onto some other guy — walk into a situation where I could be getting effectively pre-cuckolded?

    I feel like if I commit to her, that will be the beginning of the end. She keeps saying she doesn’t want to be strung along, she doesn’t want to invest more feelings into me if I’m not going to reciprocate, etc. —

    — but I don’t want to do that either. And knowing about hypergamy and Game….well, I don’t want to invest more feelings into her if she’s going to turn on me down the road.

    And very likely she could turn on me for the very fact of me committing to her, and so destroying the anxiety/insecurity/tension that has been keeping things so exciting, and apparently keeping her interest in me at a very high level.

    I’ve still been going strong with Game. i.e., going strong with being my own MPO and putting myself and my feelings and desires first.

    But it’s been a struggle. The ‘second unplugging’ is very real, and I think that’s what I’ve been going through. Major conflict with old Blue Pill idealism — wanting a committed relationship — but also wanting to fuck other women on the side and not pass up any opportunities, while also wanting to keep a girl around that is claiming she isn’t willing to be non-exclusive.

    And also wanting to BELIEVE her when she says she wants to be with me, while knowing about TRP and hypergamy, I can’t believe her, or can only see her cheating on me if I ever did commit to her — which is a mix of blue pill and red pill thinking.

    Awareness of hypergamy is one thing. Being scared of getting cucked seems more Beta to me than Alpha, though, and maybe that fear could lead to Beta behaviors that end up blowing up a relationship.

    Obviously I’m overthinking all of this. But I think that’s natural for a newbie. I thought this RP stuff was hard just reading about it and understanding it, but now that I’m on the field it’s even more intense.

  83. @ softek, Rollo

    The girl I’ve been seeing has been giving me an ultimatum: “If you won’t be my boyfriend then I can’t see you anymore.”

    standard 5h1t test…she’s trying to impose her frame on you…lol…now you need to flip her back into your frame…say something like, “I wouldn’t want you to go blind from masturbating…you need to date other guys”…lol, she won’t want to and this will create Dread in her because it’s push/pull…implies that you have options and are more willing to walk away than she is…a Zero Fucks Given ™ mindset…see Rollo’s post about the partner who is willing to walk away has the power in a relationship. Maybe Rollo knows how to find it.

  84. Roused, If I get what you are saying it is:

    It’s time to “Lighten up Frances”.

    You are way to hard on yourself.

    Watch what she does, not what she says.

    You are actually just finding it hard to swallow the Red Pill. Women like her are the problem. The problem is not you.

    She is not the only one out there for you. She is just an option. You have Oneitis and it shows. You are also stuck in the middle of the Kubler-Ross stages of unplugging.

    Go easy on yourself. It is entirely possible for you to drink less alcohol and enjoy being around others including this girl when she is drinking. You make it so that it is she that wants to enter into your frame. She just doesn’t know how to yet. It takes time. She’s just playing the cards that are in her hand. Her trump card is sex. Yours is commitment. She wants you to play your trump card so she can steal it from you.

    You are not at fault here and you don’t need us to ream you another asshole.

    Control your emotions, relax and enjoy the new you.

    She has too much to lose in you regaining your frame, being dominant and not giving up your commitment card. Hold your ground.

    I don’t know where that Rollo quote came from, but I have been dealing with that same problem, but am seeing it as a low hurdle instead of a high hurdle. The quote that is in synch with Illimitable Man’s Maxim #24: “If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget his old ways. She will never really believe he is a worthy leader.” This will not change. But that does not mean that you should cave to your mission. It is just another tiny speed bump along the way. She has ego investment in controlling men all her life. What makes you so special that she thinks she can’t own you.

    In regards to how long does it take to be the new you? It takes at least one month for every year you were married in a blue pill mindset to your first wife. So there is that. Be patient. Progress is never at a 45 degree up-slope on a graph. You move forward and then the graph has to consolidate, retrace and regain its footing before it advances again. As long as the progress is in an upward direction, you are better off and the goal is to have your eye on the increase over time. If you can’t advance or see the graph going downward in a trend, then you bail on this woman. If she doesn’t advance she is at best dead money. If she pulls you down she is a liability.

    Your eyes just hurt because you’ve never used them. Once you adjust you will feel better.

    You are not doing bad and you didn’t just fuck up on Friday. You didn’t fall off a cliff and mortally injure yourself. You just had a booty call with an inebriated woman. So what? You need sex. You’re a masculine male. Self discipline is not self suppression. Self discipline is when your highest desires rule your lesser desires, not through resistance, but through loving masculine action grounded in understanding red pill awareness and compassion game.

    One-itis is a disease. An addiction. How do you overcome? Other dopamine inputs, that’s how. New adventures, exercise, weightlifting, being with other men that care about you, reading inspirational manosphere writings, sex with other women, hobbies, having YOU as your own mental point of origin. Not her, not your first wife, not your children. YOU! You make yourself better and define and stick to your mission and they will come.

    Lighten up, Roused. You’re a good man. But are you going to go out and be better at being a man? You already have begun that journey. Make your hurdles be lower.

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