Christian Dread

christian_dread

A couple of interesting things happened over the last week and a half that made me think it might be time to reconsider the principle of Dread once again. The first was a comment I made over at Biblical Gender Roles which Larry Solomon then devoted a blog post to address. This was my comment to him:

While I might not endorse overt Dread for Christian men I would advise they become more aware of the opportunities that passive Dread represents in their marriages.

Most Beta Christian men (which is to say 90%+) will proactively try to diffuse the sexual anxiety and tension necessary to inspire the ‘desired’ sex you describe here. They believe the pro-feminine lie that rapport, comfort and familiarity is what leads to sexual desire so they make every attempt to convince their wives that they have no need to worry or feel insecure that any other woman would want them sexually, much less appreciate them for being ‘good christian men’.

What they fail to grasp is that passionate sex inspired by genuine desire is the result of insecurity, anxiety and sexual tension. Most Christian men are conditioned to bypass this phase in seducing their wives, thinking that comfort and security are what will prompt her to being more sexual, but in doing so they kill the vibe before it can build. Comfort and rapport are post-orgasm, oxytocin effects, but Christian men believe they are prerequisites for sex. For the most part they are deathly afraid to embrace and exaggerate the uncertainty, spontaneity, anxiety and tension women need to feel sexual urgency.

You make sex another chore for a woman when you negotiate for her desire. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated. If you find yourself in a sexless (or passionless sex) relationship with your wife you need to embrace using soft dread situations to prompt her imagination. A woman’s imaginings are the best tool in you seduction toolbox, learn how to inspire them.

Make your wife unintentionally uncomfortable. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. By its very nature passionate, desired sex is a result of being uncomfortable, uncertain and urgent. It might be an uncomfortable truth to most Christian men, but the best, most memorable, married sex you have won’t be the result of a pre-planned “Date Night” where you stage manage every event and nuance in advance; it will be the rough, hard-core, make-up sex you never thought you’d have after a near breakup inspired by the anxiety of the thought of never having you around anymore.

Just to give you a quick run down here, I found BGR quite by accident. One of Solomon’s post actually got shared in my FaceBook feed by a notorious Christian feminist I follow just for such stories. I’ve written about it in the past, but I find contemporary evangelical Christianity (or ‘Churchianity’) to be one of the most fertile grounds for egalitarian feminist mores to propagate.

Standard disclaimer: I don’t do religion on this blog, but I do intersexual dynamics and sometimes these have effects that are very intertwined with religion, politics and social orders. It’s long been my own and Dalrock’s observation that Christianity has been co-opted by the same feminization that secular society has been saturated by.

As things progressed, this post and my exchanges with Solomon in the comments were picked up on by Raw Story and at least 4 other reblogs from various culture news “journalists” happy to pull anything and everything out of context, provided no links to the actual article and, as would be expected, deleted any post of my own from the Disqus comment threads I vainly tried to leave. I was happy for what spillover traffic came in from it, but I know the indignation crowd’s flavor of the minute doesn’t really count for much.

However, for all of that, I did reexamine my two previous posts on Dread: Dread Games and Soft Dread. It was interesting to see the knee-jerk response to ideas like “passionate sex inspired by genuine desire is the result of insecurity, anxiety and sexual tension”  from the Blue Pill commentariat. The problem I see is that there’s only one manner in which terms like ‘insecurity’, ‘anxiety’ and ‘sexual tension’ are really interpreted by those steeped in the Feminine Imperative. They are always going to be viewed from a position of absolutism; therefor the drive-by impression is that myself or Solomon were advocating for heavy handed abuse of wives by their husbands.

And as expected, the straw men got more blown out of scale, and then it was a story of how Christian husbands ought to force themselves on their wives irrespective of their actual desire, and then comes ‘Rape! Rapety rape rape!’

How to Get Your Wife to Want to Fuck You

I’ll admit, I’m not familiar with Solomon’s writing, but from what I gather on his blog it’s fairly heavy on the “how to get your wife to have the Biblically mandated sex the Lord obligates her to” posts. I fully understand the ease with which the “spiritual, but not religious” crowd would have a field day with a majority of his posts.

As some of my readers are aware I’ve been an active reader of Dalrock’s blog for years now. I don’t do religion, but if I were to I expect a lot of what I’d write would be better done by Dal. A handful of commenters on his blog think I’m the Devil for laying bare the frustrations they observe in the church in the secular, nuts & bolts, psychology and intersexual dynamics. I think most there have a pretty good grasp of the feminization and egalitarian efforts that have taken root in a religion that still preaches the old set of books to men while simultaneously expecting them to recognize the new set of books for women.

I imagine a lot of contemporary Christian men would embrace some degree of the MGTOW mindset if marriage weren’t the only doctrinal means for them to have ‘ordained’ sex. Mainstream, pop-culture Christianity loves to adopt and ‘sanctify’ christianized versions of secular social trends, and the Red Pill is no exception. One theme I see repeated on sites like BGR as well as Focus on the Family is a push for married Christian couples to have more sex. Solomon’s tact is literally enforcing Biblical gender roles on couples and therefor obligating wives to ‘Duty Sex’ they apparently are reluctant to have. For the Focus on the Family side, there’s an embrace of men’s constant need to qualify themselves for their wive’s intimacy; ergo making it their fault for their sexlessness.

I imagine this situation doesn’t bode well with the contemporary Christian young man who actually takes his conviction with some degree of seriousness. Not only does his Burden of Performance include a constant qualification to women in a sexless pre-marriage state (to say nothing of the hormones of youth), he “struggles” with rubbing it out to porn, and then has a sexless marriage waiting for him on the other side of the marriage contract that is all down-side risk for him.

The Quest for the Righteous Fox will always persist, but I can’t say that sounds like a great opportunity for an 18 year old guy raised on Purity Rings and taught to defer all authority to the woman who will become his only source of sexual release for a lifetime. So the appeal of a christianized form of the Red Pill should be obvious.

My comment to Solomon was motivated from the perspective of wanting to help these men better understand their Christian conditioned Blue Pill predicament. I know a common refrain of more traditionalist Christians is that Christianity was already Red Pill before there was a Red Pill, and in an Old Testament respect I guess I can relate, but the problem isn’t one of doctrine, it’s about the readiness with which the church has adopted egalitarianism as doctrine. I get that it’s largely a business decision – appeal to the feminine or go out of business – but after several generations the same Blue Pill conditioning of the past 60+ years is only amplified in a religious context.

Religion is no insulation against Hypergamy. I understand that in the past religion was used as a control on Hypergamy, especially in respect to men’s burden of performance and the necessity of their provisioning to women.

There was a section in the London Real video interview of Nick Krauser where he explains the distribution of labor aspect of how religion and the 80\20 aspect of the Pareto Principle interact with Hypergamy and intersexual dynamics. I may explore this in another post, but the idea is that monogamous marriage in a Christian sense relatively ensured that the 80% Beta men could reasonably expect to get a woman for exclusive sex and pass on his genetic lineage.

Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks are still the order of the day, but that Beta could, through a social and religious contract, be pacified with a wife and the responsibilities inherent in his burden of performance as a father and husband. Thus the distribution of labor could be maintained without the fear of a ‘Beta Uprising’ to claim control of more Alpha dominant men.

Stay at Home Dad Documents His Sex Life on a Fitbit

Unfortunately with the advent of the sexual revolution that Beta Christian man’s sex life is far more likely to resemble this guy’s. Egalitarianism has saturated itself not just into the social structure of the church, but it has reshaped the very doctrine upon which this old set of books and monogamous marriage was founded upon.

Thus we see men looking for answers to their sexless marriages and the hope that Red Pill awareness can bring to them. Old order marriage only exists with regards to men’s responsibilities under it. These husbands must balance those old order expectations with a new order egalitarianism that the church has embraced for their wives. And few are ever aware of their balancing act.

The Red Pill would have to be made Christian Kosher®, but the psychological and sociological underpinning of Red Pill awareness clashes with the ‘traditionalism’ of old order Biblical gender roles based on that old division of labor/monogamous marriage model.

340 comments

  1. I think someone linked that say home dad article in the previous post and I read it. Suddenly I realized, hypergamy doesn’t even care what you think hypergamy is.

  2. Yup. Great post Rollo. A faction of the sphere is building hopes in traditionalism as a band aid for hypergamy. The problem is that, most of the traditional frameworks which worked were either compromises at best, or instruments of the feminine imperative at worst. In contemporary times with changed social realities and new technology effecting the SMV, the old assumptions won’t work in the ways they used to.

    The cat is out of the bag, and there may very well be no way to put her back.

  3. “Not only does his Burden of Performance include a constant qualification to women in a sexless pre-marriage state (to say nothing of the hormones of youth), he “struggles” with rubbing it out to porn, and then has a sexless marriage waiting for him on the other side of the marriage contract that is all down-side risk for him.”

    Was about to go to sleep. Something about this explains a lot about my buffers and hardships with dealing with the world on the World terms in a redpill state none of the many events in my unbringing would have vazed me at all. It’s by being told to by pass this dread that their wasn’t any wonder on a possibility of getting laid. I had a very weird relationship with my mother.
    Thanks for your thoughts and ability to write truth offense or not for what it is.

    “These husbands must balance those old order expectations with a new order egalitarianism that the church has embraced for their wives. And few are ever aware of their balancing act.”

  4. Once i read “caleb” and “piper” i knew that stay at home dad article had to be trolling.

  5. There is an odd dynamic in the church that is counter intuitive.

    I think you’re right that co opting the feminine imperative was done to boost numbers, but it has proven the undoing of much of those same numbers.

    The irony, I think, is that if the church had stuck to the original plan, the numbers would have taken care of themselves. In broad strokes, women follow men. The men who follow women aren’t wanted by those same women, so it falls apart.

    Things can be turned around but not until men start telling the truth to women, not out of bitterness, or as a tactic, but just because it needs to be said or nobody’s happy.

    Maybe this is a tangent, but the best Christian women I’ve ever met were usually foreign or missionary kids. I think it’s down to being Christian in a hostile environment, it speaks to sincerity.

  6. The fully “Christianized” marriages I commonly see, cater to the feminine from wedding to divorce, and at all points in between. The guys are usually ready made mules, trained from childhood to prioritize wives and their children above themselves in the vast majority of situations they will encounter, often with little to show for it. To me, it’s a reflection of the overall cultural shift we’ve witnessed happening throughout the western world.

    The fact that Christianity is a common vehicle for the feminine imperative in the US seems almost irrelevant. If Hinduism were more prevalent here, the FI would co-opt it for it’s purposes, and we would be discussing that.

    Choose any ideology you like. When a woman views it through the prism of the FI, it takes on the fundamental characteristics we likely would all recognize.

  7. Rollo: “Religion is no insulation against Hypergamy.”
    Tell that with a straight face to the 600 million Muslim women.

    Over at CH he made the statement that the rise of Divorce is correlated to female options and female fertility.

    Modern Christianity is guilty of continuing the fiction of reconciling Christianity with Feminism. Unfortunately like many modern notions it’s a bad fit and dangerous in practice. I travel the world quite a bit and Western Christian women by far seem to be the most unhappy of any I have encountered. Everywhere but in the west men are in charge and women appear to be happier. And if the size of families is a gauge of sexual activity … they have sex more often too.

    How can this be? A happy woman in limited circumstance?
    Because if a societies men don’t limit a woman’s options… a conqueror WILL come in and limit them!

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/11/02/your-daughter-will-marry-a-bearded-man/

  8. Rollo: “Religion is no insulation against Hypergamy.”

    The point in which AngAamer is wrong is that religion was a way to set the rules for hypergamy in an insecure environment (like in the most radical muslim countries right now). When you do have a secure environment and women do not need the security of a household, they don’t need to fight in wars and so on, they can be independent and hypergamy starts taking control.

    That’s why religion is no insulation about it, it is just a bunch of rules to make a society, but the underlying issue is the security of the environment or the stability of the society.

  9. Rollo: “Religion is no insulation against Hypergamy.”
    Tell that with a straight face to the 600 million Muslim women.

    The reason it still works in Muslim countries isn’t religion, but social pressure. Women who don’t play by the rules are socially excluded, despised or even punished. None of that exists in the west.

    What can be seen with many Muslim women living here in western Europe is a traditional marriage to a Muslim man chosen by the family very early only to be divorced after short time (around their SMV peak) and then the western Muslim women is free to marry a western man, which many do. Or join the carrousel.

    At the same time the Muslim men try to enact their traditional ways in marriages, including beating the women, but it doesn’t work as it used to in the old societies. It ends all being ultimatums from a position of weakness. This will neither attract the Muslim women nor western women. Therefor Roissy’s “bearded man” is no serious competition. I think there are way more Muslim women going with western men (the good looking ones especially) than Muslim men marrying the daughter of a western man.

  10. ^
    I know quite a few Muslim and Jewish girls since I went to an all girls school, and there are a few in my college too..
    And, from my experience, you are entirely wrong… I don’t know many of them who even date guys, and when the Muslim girls do it’s almost exclusively Muslim men. Granted, these girls are very conservative, and they told me that their families would disown them otherwise cause they aren’t allowed to marry a non-muslim.
    I’ve seen a few muslim men dating western girls though.

    It does bug me cause while I have nothing against Islam, people should really marry into their own race and religion, in my opinion. So, for once, I actually agree with Rollo..

  11. @ Rollo
    ” The Quest for the Righteous Fox will always persist, but I can’t say that sounds like a great opportunity for an 18 year old guy raised on Purity Rings and taught to defer all authority to the woman who will become his only source of sexual release for a lifetime. So the appeal of a christianized form of the Red Pill should be obvious. ”

    There is one (I think significant) advantage of marrying a virgin woman, in that it greatly reduces the chance of marrying and alpha widow. I like this chart:

    http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/2503/her-notch-count-and-your-marriage

    There is one (I think very dubious) advantage of being yourself a virgin man when you get married – as you are starting from no sex, at least you can’t get less after you marry. So even if you wind up in a dead bedroom situation with trickle sex, you can still cynically smile when reading people “joking” about that they don’t know anyone that started having more sex after marriage…

  12. “cause they aren’t allowed to marry a non-muslim.”

    That’s true. But many around here take the loophole I described: Date and marry a Muslim man first and divorce soon. Him beating her and all that will be plenty of reasons others will accept. After divorce they are free to date and marry whomever they want.

  13. Actually Rollo it doesn’t. Evolutionary biology perfectly characterizes what is commonly called sin nature. One thing that would have to devised would be a replacement for the 3 date rule since sex before marriage is forbidden. Coming from a Christian background I can tell you it won’t take all that much to get the typically evangelical male to digest the red pill. What needs to be done is to be able to answer the question and then what? Someone needs to write the Christian man’s guide to game to devise a pathway for us to at least attempt to find a wife.

  14. Control and butts in the seats are intertwined in the Xian church (the ability to put butts in the seats is the basis of a pastor’s authority in a church). Pacifying the women by giving them their way puts butts in the seats, but also AMOGs the men so they don’t stand up to said pastors. The church is an institution, and the primary purpose of any institution is to grind men into submission to itself. Cutting off their balls and calling it the Word of God fulfills both requirements of the church as an institution.

  15. In many ways I think you’re right that Evangelical Christianity is fertile ground for feminist mores. This is because we try to put on the surround culture’s “clothing” so that they will be able to understand God’s plan and work in their own context and what it means for them.

    So there is a prevailing tactic of trying to help feminists understand how their concerns and worldview fit with God’s concerns and worldview, and to an extent there is an overlap (protecting women from abuse, etc).

    However, I think because feminist voices are the loudest voices in our culture, there is undo attention given to attending to them and trying to win them in Evangelical culture. The primary concern for Christians is helping people understand what Jesus did for them and be reconciled to God. This concern to be careful and win hearts has led to a severe imbalance and the influence flowing the wrong way.

  16. The problem with “dread game” of any kind is that it’s too often a temporary solution to a longer-term problem or the inevitability of hypergamy.

    Girl acts up…you start to quietly pull back, maybe don’t respond as quickly as you did…

    Girl can either smarten up and realize what a good thing really has…or up the ante to test you….the escalation induces dread in you. You blow up. She wins…

    Or scenario #2 dread happens once, you settle back into the good times…she senses that dread was temporary and realizes it’s just a ploy, you wouldn’t really ever leave her because well…guys are loyal right?

    So you’re dealing with emotions not logic. After a period of time she leaves, cheats, breaks up. That’s when dread works the best. But by then, why would you want to go back? So you leave…she panics realizing omg omg…he really is out of my life.

    I’ve done this. I’ve gone back after seeing the girl truly begging and crying that I come back.

    After that it’s never really the same.

    The more girls I meet and bang or get involved with and bang, the more I realize they’re either feeding you a Blue Pill lie, something like “i need someone to take care of me….”

    Or they’re like “you’re soooo selfish”.

    The only reaction is to quietly pull back. Girls who do know their own self-worth and are healthy enough emotionally to respect yours are rare. The Red Pill is a bitter wake up call to getting your own emotional house in order and knowing when to pull out or stay in.

    I was thinking this the other day. I’m so much better off than I was two years ago in every way…yet there are days when I get flaked on, or get rejected and start thinking this is the way I AM rather than this is the way it IS today but I can change it if I want.

  17. I think you’re exaggerating a bit about how women are attracted/aroused by the hyper half of hypergamy. And I comment over at CH, more or less agreeing with what the guys over there say, so I am not naïve about women. They are hard-wired hard-core hypergamists, no doubt about it. But my wife was never more aroused than on our wedding night, when she was experiencing the greatest possible lack of insecurity. The gamy half of hypergamy counts too.
    As a house-husband, I admit I have suffered some low frequency, but at a combined age of over a hundred we are still going (very nice last time), and my wife has low thyroid (causing low libido) that she basically refuses to treat. But I am definitely not her love-slave. Even a house-husband can have frame control by making it clear that he values the relationship less than she does just because he is a man. It is the gender-neutral attitude that causes problems.

  18. Rollo
    >”The Red Pill would have to be made Christian Kosher®, but the psychological and sociological underpinning of Red Pill awareness clashes with the ‘traditionalism’ of old order Biblical gender roles based on that old division of labor/monogamous marriage model.”

    I come from a tradition religious family (e.g. Landmark / Primitive / Sovereign Grace Baptist). My mother raised me to be an Alpha. My dad raised me to be a Beta. Older MALE adults (i.e. grandparents and friends) raised me with the Red Pill. Older FEMALE adults (i.e. family and friends) raised me with the Blue Pill. The RED PILL took with me and the Blue Pill took to my brothers. All three (younger) are divorced due to following the FI directives.

    In my case I have never married. I could see this playing out as a teenager thru-out my aging (now mid-forties).

    Your observations (Rollo) are spot on.

    Rollo I can’t force myself to marry women knowing their nature and current (slut / whore) condition. And, it doesn’t bother me at all.

    I can thank GOD for giving me the nature to be happy / content at being single.

    Love your blog.

  19. Christian women were some of the most ruthlessly deceptive and hypergamous women I have ever interacted with.

    Were I offered a choice between a tattoo’d barfly and your typical church girl, I’d take the bar girl. At least with the latter you get a measure of fair disclosure.

  20. Trigger Warning!: Grammar Nazism

    “Solomon’s tact . . .”

    The word is tack,; the relative direction which one sails into the wind.

  21. Me like this post very much.
    Hypergamy use/manipulate religion as an excuse for not fucking the no tingle beta,PERIOD.
    Muslim women had been doing this for centuries , 90% of A-rab men are not Omar Shareef. It so very ignorant of westerners to think Muslim women don’t fuck non Muslims, the same goes for Christians or Jewish. (in Israel, there are unattractive Jewish women who married unattractive A-rab men not because the A-rab men have tingles, it’s because the Israeli Jewish men didn’t want to marry them)
    When it comes to $$ and tingles, women dump religion down the toilet. PERIOD.

  22. @Emily,
    Donkeys are very social animals and can develop very strong emotional attachments with other animals including other donkeys. In the wild, male donkeys frequently live on their own and defend a territory so that they will have breeding rights to as many females as possible.

  23. @walawala

    The problem with “dread game” of any kind is that it’s too often a temporary solution to a longer-term problem or the inevitability of hypergamy.
    Girl acts up…you start to quietly pull back, maybe don’t respond as quickly as you did…
    Girl can either smarten up and realize what a good thing really has…or up the ante to test you….the escalation induces dread in you. You blow up. She wins…

    Well, then don’t blow up. Hold frame. That solves that problem unless I’m misreading you.

    Or scenario #2 dread happens once, you settle back into the good times…she senses that dread was temporary and realizes it’s just a ploy, you wouldn’t really ever leave her because well…guys are loyal right?
    So you’re dealing with emotions not logic.

    You’re thinking about dread as if it is some kind of singular event that is performed by the male to “get her in line.” While there are certainly real-life examples where this interpretation is possible, it’s a limiting way to look at the phenomenon.

    Look at early human history. You had men and women living together in caves or villages. The women tended to whatever they could to keep survival going. If that meant finding water, they did. If that meant foraging for fruits and veggies, they did. The men were sacrificial and went out in groups to hunt and/or scavenge from other animal kills. The men were also sent out to defend the community. This means, regularly, on any given day, women experienced anxiety about whether or not their man will come home. Since men were sacrificial, and smaller numbers of men could more easily keep impregnating larger numbers of women, women also experienced sexual anxiety about whether their man was screwing around with the wife next door who lost her husband to a lion or tiger. Until the modern age of the past couple hundred years, this kind of daily anxiety has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years.

    Women evolved to expect it. They evolved to need that nervous energy about whether the man they attached themselves to is going to be back for them. This is why the phrase, “Never get home before your wife does,” holds such weight. Even today there are men who (frankly wisely) would rather go have a beer at happy hour than get home before the wife does. You want your wife, on a daily basis, wondering about you at least a little bit. She will never admit this, but she does, she wants to feel anxiety about your return. You want this because the safety of modern society gives her no anxiety about her survival, or the continuation of her living wage.

    Passive dread when exercised correctly is just that, the replacement of the low-level and daily anxiety women somewhat evolved to expect and modern live has removed. It is not necessarily overt flirting with the waitress in front of her. It’s the passive things you do each day for yourself or for survival that you don’t necessarily share with her that keeps her wondering if you’re coming home. This is nothing different than the normal unease you are making a woman feel about her relationship. She would ordinarily feel this about your relationship if modern life did not make it so easy for her to get attention (social media), income (social safety net), etc…

    So, don’t think about dread as some kind of pick-up-line kind of action that you do once when she gets “out of line”. It’s not, it’s just daily anxiety and tension that she frankly needs to feel.

  24. A Christian/ muslem / Jewish woman, would marry some guy who is an atheist (with tingles / $$) and then she forgives herself by saying : but I’ll make she my kids believe in God. Hehehe, hahaha, whaaaaaaahahah.

  25. Women don’t really understand religious ideals anyway. They use them when it suits them. Solipsism does the magic.

  26. You know who is far more dangerous than feminists? It’s religious feminists.
    I find it nuts when women mix religion and sex. Look at the old testament and the quran, it was all about those alpha men going on fucking rampage with so many women using the “God Gaming” and women bought it!!.
    Who said :
    Religion is the opium of the betas?

  27. Achievement unlocked: Using masterful levels of choreplay while in the dreaded friendzone… What a powerful scene, goddamn.

    User comments:

    stellatocca
    now that is a man. considerate and sweet with a good heart.

    Orphan_Darqjade
    take note guys, THIS is what we as women find sexy ! This is the epitome of sexy! Also, this scene is the best and only one worth watching in this movie.

    MissYaiJin19
    I lovis scene. I think the man who can do something like that for the woman he loves.. he’s gonna be a perfect man

  28. @kfg – Tack is not really “the relative direction which one sails”. Tack is a funny world that has a number of meanings for a sailor:

    – The lower corner of a sail’s leading edge.
    – A maneuver which changes the orientation of the boat to the wind so the wind hits the sail from the starboard, port or dead on the stern of a boat.

    To sail on a “starboard tack” means that the wind is coming over the starboard side of the boat, which is yet another usage of the word but it’s more of a colloquialism or term of art used in sailing. And in that case, tacking only refers to bringing the bow around the direction of the wind, as jibing is when the stern is brought around the wind. When one is running downwind, one is not on a “tack” at all, but rather on a run.

    Not really disagreeing with you in the sense that the word sort of means what you say, but it’s just an interesting example of how fucked up English is. Tack also can be a kind of nail and it also is a verb, “to tack the fabric down”.

    And of course, tact was misused by the previous commenter, it’s a common mistake these days. Having “tact” would mean being polite or being politically sensitive or gracious. Just sayin’…

    I gotta get back to work. As for Christian Dread, yeah, I’m still processing it. Trying to not have an atheistic attack of rhetorical excess…Suffice it to say this.

    I’m in agreement with Rollo that Christian, monogamous marriages and traditional sexual roles were all about making pussy available – if begrudgingly – to Beta males. What I think many here do not want to face is that the current social climate is a rejection of that by women in the main. Why should they settle for a beta in today’s world? They don’t need provisioning or protection – so what’s left? Answer: Tingles. Think about it.

    Most amusing? Thinking this can be rolled back to “the good old days” or that unicorn hunting and NAWALTing is the correct approach – which is to say the Christian formula for dealing with all this. And anyway, I’m not here to be of service to anyone anymore – not Christ, not women and not children – seeing yourself as “of service” to anyone or anything other than yourself is the essence of Blue Pill/FI thinking. That’s the entire lesson of the Red Pill, stop being a service animal for society and women. Start making your life about what you want. And does denying a man’s basic sexual instincts feel like a good way to live your life? Really?

    Give her plenty of dread – start fucking whomever you want and lie to her about it. Trust me, women deserve no better treatment than this…

  29. “Maybe this is a tangent, but the best Christian women I’ve ever met were usually foreign or missionary kids. I think it’s down to being Christian in a hostile environment, it speaks to sincerity.”

    Unfortunately, very few Western women have proven to be immune to the Feminist virus, and that includes devout Christian women.

    On a slightly related note, modern Feminists would loathe to admit that they owe a debt of gratitude to some of the more prominent voices in the Evangelical movement. One of the RadFem tenets is the notion that men are wanton beasts who only have one thing on their mind, but for all intents and purposes, that’s been the message from Churchian authors like Joshua Harris and Bill Gothard for several generations now. As both a victim of Evangelical genophobia and someone who always had a penchant for Psychology, I believe that many of them were at least partially motivated by a desire to impose their own social ineptitude and sexual repression on others. They succeeded.

    After reading some of their books and sermons, I can understand why some women wind up as Feminists. And when people of opposite theological and political views agree that something is seriously amiss, odds are good that something is seriously amiss.

  30. Contemporary Christianity is a social environment that is tailor made for creating Beta men while simultaneously absolving women of the life altering decisions that Hypergamy has directed them to.

    When you consider how Forgiveness plays into Christianity you can see how useful that doctrine is with regard to enabling and excusing the worst of Hypergamy, while expecting men to abide by it in order to be “real men of God”. Dalrock calls this dynamic ‘Man Up and marry those sluts’ in the modern push to get men to accept forgiving the consequences of Hypergamy as an article of faith.

    It’s little wonder to me that feminism and establishing feminine-primacy within the church would be a natural progression considering the association with traditional Patriarchy.

    I’m not saying all Christian men are default pussies or there are no Christian Alphas, just that the social environment that constitutes the church is so overwhelmingly conducive to creating and maintaining Beta men now it’s become endemic.

    On Islam: The religion’s take on marriage and gender roles, like old order Christianity, was founded on the same Pareto Principle and control on Hypergamy. Thus, even Islam is no insulations against Hypergamy because religious doctrines and cultural norms become intertwined around that need for control. Even arranged marriages in Hindu culture are evidence of an old order need for men to ensure patrilinear legacies and attempt to mediate the risk-management of parentally investing in a child he couldn’t be sure was his own.

    That said, even Muslims and Hindus are fighting against the Feminine Imperative saturating and normalizing those religions. Perhaps not in underdeveloped or less economically stable countries, but in more wealthy (relatively speaking) ones you can see the influences of western style feminist primacy taking hold in social settings.

    Even in the stereotypically gender role rigid Mormon church there are feminist pushes to allow women to become church leaders. As I said the church is no insurance.

  31. “I imagine a lot of contemporary Christian men would embrace some degree of the MGTOW mindset if marriage weren’t the only doctrinal means for them to have ‘ordained’ sex.”

    Insofar as MGTOW is swearing off women entirely rather than PUA/soft harems, Christian men who understand the current situation make archetypical MGTOWs. “Married sex or none” doesn’t leave wiggle room.

    Christian monogamy isn’t incompatible with red pill but if secular society decides to play favorites then it can easily become a prison. Divorce isn’t allowed even when the rules change mid-game.

    Ang Aamer @ 3:08 am:
    “Rollo: “Religion is no insulation against Hypergamy.”
    Tell that with a straight face to the 600 million Muslim women.”

    Many of the Muslim societies I’ve read of were extremely hypergamous: warlords with huge harems ruling over disposable minions and outright slaves. That’s what AFBB endgame looks like.

    IAS@ 4:32 am:
    “There is one (I think very dubious) advantage of being yourself a virgin man when you get married – as you are starting from no sex, at least you can’t get less after you marry.”

    I’ve heard this is one reason women don’t like longtime-virgin men, because they know they can’t use sex as a weapon against him. Any truth to this?

  32. Rollo, you inspired me to put together a list of my posts which are related to Christian Marital Sex, including Dread, the Song of Solomon, Game, Keeping Track of Sex on the calendar, relationships, and sexual macrodynamics.

    https://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2015/11/03/christian-marital-sex-issues/

    Unlike Larry Solomon, I don’t try to bull5h1t my way through theological reasoning. I go with the simple, obvious reading based on the context in the Song of Solomon. I don’t read spiritual meaning into passages like Mr. Solomon does. My approach is much more cautious.

  33. “Evolutionary biology perfectly characterizes what is commonly called sin nature.”

    And, since the church has been feminized, for the most part, it caters to the Feminine Imperative, i.e., to the feminine sin nature.

    “I imagine this situation doesn’t bode well with the contemporary Christian young man who actually takes his conviction with some degree of seriousness.”

    A Red Pill young man who takes sexual sin seriously is playing with fire. Or cutting off a leg with a chainsaw before attempting a three-legged race. Young men of average SMV are already at a severe seduction disadvantage, and it seems like morality just adds another handicap: either the tension of sex becomes a two-edged blade with which you can cut yourself, or you eschew sexuality to such an extent that there’s no desire inspired within the woman. Additionally, since the true marker of whether you’re inspiring genuine desire is sex itself, it makes it harder to objectively evaluate one’s sexual market successes and failures as you “play the field,” so to speak, to better learn game.

    I know one guy who dated and bedded women easily. When he became convicted of sexual sin, he immediately found it hard-to-impossible to attract and keep a girlfriend. The ones he did find were all much lower in MMV (girls with baggage and kids).

    As Rollo mentions, when religion does not cater to the Feminine Imperative, this isn’t be a problem, because the sexual nature of the female would also be kept in check. But finding a woman like that in the modern church is like searching for unicorns.

    I’m no expert (since I am one of those young men), but it seems like playing on anxiety is one of the few tools with full use available to such young men. Hmm. A single man with moral convictions is handicapped on sexual threat but has full use of dread; a married man with moral convictions has the situation reversed. But both can still use both tools with the right mindset.

  34. @walawala

    I was thinking this the other day. I’m so much better off than I was two years ago in every way…yet there are days when I get flaked on, or get rejected and start thinking this is the way I AM rather than this is the way it IS today but I can change it if I want.

    I’m with you.  I am also exponentially better off.  In fact, I’m unequivocally clear on where all of my troubles began – which was essentially not keeping frame.  You start off doing so, then you drop your guard.  You can never – EVER – lose frame – or you’re done.

    I’ve erred also in explicating.

    Transparency seems noble, doesn’t it?  But if you tell a woman, “if you do XYZ, I’m bouncing”.  “Don’t you ever try XYZ shit with me, or…”.  “The first time I get wind of XYZ, that’s it…”.   It doesn’t work at all, not using those words. It has to be communicated, but not as some preamble to you coming off as “fuck with me, and your ass is grass”.

    As far as Christian Dread is concerned, it should be built into the faith.  These women should ultimately fear God, and have a sense of shame that they are doing things to fuck up their marriages.  “Grieving the Holy Ghost” by being a shitty wife, should be dread enough, but it’s not.  Christian women simply don’t care.

    I love Jesus, but I just don’t love HIS ass.  

    This is the underlying sentiment of so many couples I’m privy to know or have encountered. I’m so glad that I don’t have those issues any more and don’t plan to ever have them.

    So, likewise, as dread should be a feature of the Christian marriage ethic, likewise so should game.  That’s just the way it is when you deal with women who not are not only fraudulent as it concerns matters of the marriage covenant, but are morally bankrupt to a large degree.

    The three pillars of morality, from what I have ascertained, are RECIPROCITY, EMPATHY, and GRATITUDE.   I’m sure you brothers know that regarding such things and how the typical woman gets down is an epic fail.

    As a Christ follower, I’ve come to not even get too deep into their “relationship with Jesus” as much as I’ve started looking to see if they even measure up to those three basic ideals.  And you don’t even want to know what I’m discovering.

  35. I’m sorry Rollo, I meant Heartiste.

    However, your statement:
    “Religion is no insulation against Hypergamy.”
    Tell that with a straight face to the 600 million Muslim women.”
    I do agree with that.

    As for Christianity being ‘feminized’ of course I disagree. It’s no secret that a vast majority of radical feminists are atheists, and are often united with the groups that seek to destroy Christianity.

  36. “It’s no secret that a vast majority of radical feminists are atheists . . .”

    . . . and unfeminine.

  37. @Emily

    As for Christianity being ‘feminized’ of course I disagree. It’s no secret that a vast majority of radical feminists are atheists, and are often united with the groups that seek to destroy Christianity.

    Don’t kid yourself, they only target male-dominated patriarchal Christianity where traditional gender roles hold sway. When was the last time you saw a feminist protest any congregation that allows divorce or abortion with forgiveness? They don’t target that. They only really go after the Mormons or the Catholics, or any holdout denomination that doesn’t accept biblical forgiveness for frivorce or abortion. Well, not so much the Catholics now that they’ve got their ideal Pope in charge. Feminists are just fine with anything in Christianity that doesn’t impose responsibility on women for their choices. Their attacks on Christianity are smart-bomb attacks that only go after the things about Christianity that feminists don’t like. The rest of it, the never-ending forgiveness, the male-servitude, they’re just fine with that.

  38. “I’m not saying all Christian men are default pussies or there are no Christian Alphas, just that the social environment that constitutes the church is so overwhelmingly conducive to creating and maintaining Beta men now it’s become endemic.”

    I grew up in the Church and still “visit” a local church; I can attest this is very accurate.

    Men in the church are taught since childhood that the feminine imperative is a part of the Bible. When they grow up, they have a choice; either renounce their faith and the FI along with it, or they preserve their faith, but feel they must also accept the FI, which means obeying and submitting to those who preach it.

    Thus, he rationalizes the contradictions he hears, ignores the irrationalities he reads in “man up” articles, and refuses to confront the illogic of the FI when preached within the context of Scripture (Mother’s Day versus Father’s day sermons), because he submits to those who demand his obedience. He never questions whether or not they’re wrong, because he has been thoroughly conditioned to accept the idea that they are the final authority on what the Bible says.

    One of the things that led me to the Red Pill was concluding that what the Bible said and much of what the church taught, particularly on marriage and dating, were utterly irreconcilable. It was sad, therefore, when I found nonbelievers in the manosphere who hadn’t studied theology yet better understood the Bible than trained pastors.

  39. To prevent any leaps off bridges, let me caution that the article “Stay At Home Dad Documents His Sex Life on a Fitbit” is SATIRE. A GAG.
    A regular LARF RIOT.

    The McSweeney’s site is writer Dave Eggers’ storefront for hyperdrollery-style humor (i.e., the wisecracking logo at the top). The obvious inspiration is the “Excel Spreadsheet” incel husband from last year, chronicling the reasons the wife refused to get jiggy, whereupon she victim-wigged out upon finding the spreadsheet after he went dark on her.

    Occasionally McSweeney’s gets in a couple of Game-aware digs at modern culture. So as not to get stuck in moderation, type in these titles for a wry laugh at the modern neofeminine man:

    “A Post Gender Normative Man Tries to Pick Up a Woman at a Bar” written by actor Jesse Eisenberg

    “Your Best Guy Friend Is Me” by Nick Confalone.

  40. As for Christianity being ‘feminized’ of course I disagree. It’s no secret that a vast majority of radical feminists are atheists, and are often united with the groups that seek to destroy Christianity.

    @Emily, you are a dumb, dumb, dumb little girl. You don’t know the first thing about life. Start listening to what these smart men are trying to tell you before you wreck your fucking boyfriend’s life along with your own. Dump that poor sap while you still can and find a real man that will handle you. If you don’t do it now, you’ll wish you did it later. Do him a favor and give him Rollo’s book after you dump him. He’ll thank you forever.

  41. @ Pedat

    You can never – EVER – lose frame – or you’re done.

    I’ve erred also in explicating.

    I’ve lost frame and explicated. You can recover frame and explication is just a tactical error, not strategic.

  42. @ Fred Flange, substitute barbell

    Doing the heavy lifting, I see. The spreadsheet guy was my inspiration for my keeping track of sex overtly on the calendar, about which I posted. That is something to do overtly and works like a fakking charm!

  43. @Emily,
    Persuasion
    A donkey who isn’t actually in a dangerous situation but thinks he is can usually be persuaded through leadership and rewards to give up and go along. But he must have prior confidence that you won’t lead him into danger. For example, a small stream that you know is safe to cross might look scary to your donkey. He might not realize it’s not deep or swift. If he won’t walk through it, get off his back and walk through the water ahead of him so he can see it’s safe. Offer him hay, carrots, apples or a nice scratch on the head for doing whatever you ask. The more he becomes aware he can trust you as a leader and that doing what you ask pleases you, he will seek the rewards of following your instructions rather than his instincts.

  44. Another well done article Rollo. I cannot say this enough, but thank you for your you and your blog. It’s influence, and the help it has given to me to “connect the dots” in my own life, and my experiences (both good and bad) is priceless. I know this article will raise many an eye brow, because you cannot “attack” (I use attack in very loose terms) the basis of religion, it is more emotionally rooted in it’s followers, than the biggest blue pill beta ideologies. For example, my brother and I would regularly attend Sunday church mass, and as we became more and more red pill, the FI was steeped almost in every aspect of the pastor’s speech. You can even see/hear it in the new Pope’s speeches. The premise is always the same, the familiar trope, “Men MUST DO more”. Per the pastor, men were basically the basis of all that is wrong in this world, and only if/when they change, the world will be a better place. Again, I’m not trying to vilify religion or any of it’s ideologies, or the people who regularly attend. However, it seems to be another outlet for men to be shamed, conditioned to be “more of a beta”, and a mouthpiece for the FI. You cannot find one media or social outlet, that puts any “burden” on women to “do more”.

    As for that stay at home dad story, (aka FitBit Dipshit) I pray (pun intended) that was a troll, because if a man who is basically Martha Stewart/Housewife with a penis, I would suggest he make a “non-gassy” dessert with a side of Kleenex, so he can eat to kill time while his wife is away having sex with an actual man. You know the old saying, “Can’t make a ho a housewife”, but you certainly can make a beta one!”.For the sake of man, I pray Roissy wrote that under a surname.

  45. I think Emily believes that feminists are only “Feminists” if they identify as such. You know, fuscia hair, leg tats, piercings, etc. Not the sort of woman you’d typically find at church.

    It’s not the identifying Emily, it’s the belief set. If you asked the ladies at women’s Bible study if they considered themselves feminists, the answers would range between ‘No’ and ‘Hell NO!’ But ask them questions about feminist beliefs based on all the common tropes and you’ll find that their belief sets about gender and women align exactly with that of most feminists.

    They’ll cover it in Jesus Fish logos like all the other secular culture trends that appeal to Christians, but the beliefs are the same.

  46. @gunnerg : “I’ve heard this is one reason women don’t like longtime-virgin men, because they know they can’t use sex as a weapon against him. Any truth to this?”

    I’m not sure this will apply to all longtime-virgins and I certainly can’t speak for why reasons wouldn’t like longtime virgins. I think the most valid con from the women side would be lack of experience of the man, and the most valid pro is less risk of STD and the lower risk of the guy having someone else as a ONE-itis (or whatever the converse of being an alpha widow is for men).

    In my case I would not say I’m impervious to weaponized (lack of) sex, but even before RP I was able to figure out Choreplay was BS and I didn’t put up with as much stuff as apparently many other BP guys apparently put up with.

    It is possible that is because I wasn’t previously “spoiled” with lots of sex and thus not being “addicted” to it leaves me less vulnerable.

    What bothers me most about my situation is not the physical lack of of sex but what that manifestation implies regarding my wife not having genuine desire for me (so a psychological lack of arousal / love). I’m not worried about the symptom, even though it bothers me a bit, but with the underlying problem, which worries me a lot.

  47. @The Question, I’ve brought this up before, but I think the main trouble a lot of Christian men have with Red Pill awareness is that much of it should be self-evident according scripture, but it’s insulting that PUAs/Red Pill men need to instruct these guys in articles of doctrine with regard to intersexual relations.

    I get this a lot, “Christianity has always been Red Pill” but these are the same guys playing patsy to the FI in church and parroting the same boilerplate they hear from a Joyce Meyers appearance.

  48. Emily: “It does bug me cause while I have nothing against Islam, people should really marry into their own race and religion, in my opinion. So, for once, I actually agree with Rollo..”

    I agree on religion for pragmatic reasons, but Islam isn’t a race. Should Iranians marry Iranians or could they marry an Afghani with green eyes and everything would still be “square”? How about a Mexican marrying a Argentinian? What about a Chinese person marrying a Japanese person?

    Never mind.

  49. I’m sorry Rollo, I meant Heartiste. Close enough. I guess Rollo is also “another one of those RP people” You know much like, “I only meant to call you the demon, not the devil. My bad.”

  50. @ Gunnerg again : also I should state that I’m particularly prone to ONE-itis. So even though I may be more resilient to the specific tactic of weaponized (lack) of sex, it is still hard for me to internalize an abundance mentality.

    As a married man (virgin groom) which is not willing to cheat, I would very much welcome ideas for how to test myself to acquire or verify an abundance mentality and test for fear of rejection (hoping Rollo has good ideas on this, giving that the default for single guys would be “spinning plates” which I can’t do if I remain faithful).

  51. Emily: “It does bug me cause while I have nothing against Islam, people should really marry into their own race and religion, in my opinion.”

    You’re right, a horse and a donkey can have kids. A male horse and a female donkey have a hinny. A female horse and a male donkey have a mule.

  52. ” It does bug me cause while I have nothing against Islam, people should really marry into their own race and religion, in my opinion. So, for once, I actually agree with Rollo..”

    ….

  53. Rollo, I googled her. Seems to me like she is trying to fit Christianity into her feminism, rather than being influenced into feminism by Christianity. People are always going to force and mix their ideologies with their religion. Feminists are everywhere, it’s no surprise there are Christian feminists too.

    I will admit that Christianity is probably easier to be used by feminists, like this woman, than say.. Islam. I think the reason for that is that our central figure, Jesus Christ, never talked about gender roles. Meanwhile for Islam the central figure, Muhammad, was probably quite ‘red pill.’ (haha) ex: You can’t possibly argue that polygamy and disciplining your wife is wrong in Islam, since Muhammad did that.

    But is Christianity overall compatible with feminism? Is the Catholic church feminist? I don’t think so. Among which demographic will you find the most traditional gender role marriages? Which demographic most opposed abortion and no fault divorce? Yep, Christians, overwhelmingly.

  54. “They’ll cover it in Jesus Fish logos like all the other secular culture trends that appeal to Christians, but the beliefs are the same.”

    lol

    My single mother neighbor has a jesus fish sticker AND one that says, “if you’re going to ride my ass at least pull my hair”

    also stick figures of her, her daughter, and a cat.

  55. I wrote this comment on ‘Dread Games’ after hearing about the outraged article re: dread:

    MYSTERIOUS BUTTHURT EPIDEMIC MAY INCREASE, WARNS SCIENTISTS

    Researchers from the American Sociological Survey recorded an unusual indignation rumble that registered 3.2 on the Richter scale this past Monday, Oct 27. ‘An ominous pattern is beginning to emerge,’ reported R. Gottlieb, the Survey’s spokesman. ‘Though we’re not entirely sure as to the origin of these disturbances, they seem to be increasing in frequency and severity.”

    When pressed to comment on the cause of these disturbances, Gottlieb proved reticent. ‘Our job is to describe, not to analyze,’ he said. ‘All I can say is, the Great Gender Rift seems to be under a lot of pressure these days. There’s not much we can do about the circumstance, so long as these damn alimony currents keep driving it apart.’

    ‘Feminism promised us a different picture than this. Damn,’ Gottlieb concluded.

    Indignation quakes have long been a notorious menace in our society, resulting in the tragic libidinic ravishings of many an astonished male gender-studies professor. We spoke to prominent victim of such an event, Dr. John Houla, who is a professor of gender studies at [redacted]. ‘It was unbelievable,’ he told press respondents. ‘The female students were just feral. One moment we were peacefully discussing the problem of eliminating the pervasive influence of heteronormative cis-scum from public discourse; the next, they were tearing off my clothes like tissue paper, clawing my naked flesh in a desperate attempt at sexual release.’

    Dr. Houla’s tragic experience occurred shortly after the now-notorious ‘Elevatorgate’ indignation quake of 2011, which registered a record 6.7 on the Richter scale.

    Leading Feminist activist were unavailable for comment, in spite of pleas from authorities for their help and guidance. ‘This event occurs at an inconvenient time for us,’ a Feminist secretary told respondents. ‘These next three weeks are a busy time for our leading Feminist thinkers, as they prepare for the Solstice celebration. It’s not easy gathering the tears of twelve score cuckolded betas to perform the necessary rituals.’

    addendum: Shortly after the publication of this article, Spokesman Gottlieb was found dead in his home, having been strangled with his own severed urethra. Police are still gathering suspects. Obituary to follow.

  56. As a married man (virgin groom) which is not willing to cheat, I would very much welcome ideas for how to test myself to acquire or verify an abundance mentality and test for fear of rejection

    @IAS

    I don’t know how far along you are. Don’t take offense to anything I say. I kicked one-itis for my wife recently. I guess for me it was just a culmination of things. The biggest being the realization that she really doesn’t want you to have one-itis for her. This is pretty much my favorite TRM post.

    https://therationalmale.com/2014/11/23/vulnerability/

    The second being the realization that you are now armed with the knowledge of how to find a younger more beautiful version of her. The third being that as a red pill man in control of my life and dedicated to self improvement, she will never find a man that will make her as happy as me. We are the cream of the crop. She could live two lives and the chances she would find another man like me would be incredibly slim. Lastly as you see how effective seemingly “douchey” behavior is like calmly dismissing shit tests, expanding your frame, DHV antics, dread, pumping her state… It changes your perspective. It’s basically like stepping onto the pedestal and pushing her right off of it. Women are very simple reactionary creatures and quite frankly I love them all more that I ever did before.

    I know guys roll their eyes, but I genuinely don’t think that I could ever get one-itis for a woman again for as long as I live. If you can pull it off in a marriage, dude that’s fucking impressive.

  57. ” But is Christianity overall compatible with feminism? Is the Catholic church feminist? I don’t think so. Among which demographic will you find the most traditional gender role marriages? Which demographic most opposed abortion and no fault divorce? Yep, Christians, overwhelmingly.”

    Are you serious?

    Here in the west no religion will stave off the FI. You seem to only qualify ” catholic ” as Christian, that’s another argument for another time, but all religions in this country have been affected by feministic thinking. It is only a matter of degrees.

    If you truly believe the Catholic church is not compatible with feminism, then it appears that you have to adjust your mindset. Much of the commentary you’ve made here is very feministic.

  58. In other news, I found out yesterday that my former High School principal is making international news for suggesting that girls should dress modestly in school.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3300596/Christian-high-school-principal-causes-outrage-claiming-young-women-obey-strict-dress-codes-protect-VIRGINITY-prevent-young-men-treating-like-sex-objects.html

    Lol. The shit Rollo writes about indignation is spot on. Here’s a woman writing a piece with literally no purpose other than to inspire indignation in other women. Note the ALL CAPS in the word ‘virginity,’ just that word alone is a massive hotbutton for a lot of women.

  59. ..” ” It does bug me cause while I have nothing against Islam, people should really marry into their own race and religion, in my opinion. So, for once, I actually agree with Rollo..”

    Oh, btw, Jesus and I found this statement fucking repulsive.

  60. @ Rollo Tomasi, “it’s insulting that PUAs/Red Pill men need to instruct these guys in articles of doctrine with regard to intersexual relations.”

    Is it insulting to the Christian men who need the instruction despite attending church their whole lives, or insulting to the Red Pill men having to instruct them? (or both?).

    “I get this a lot, “Christianity has always been Red Pill” but these are the same guys playing patsy to the FI in church and parroting the same boilerplate they hear from a Joyce Meyers appearance.”

    Which to me is really confusing. Why are men trying to claim that they’re Red Pill if they’re still listening to Meyers?

  61. I find it interesting that so many people, male and female, seem unable to understand ” dread ” in it’s proper context. Commentary becoming all indignant at the suggestion of employing dread and applying extreme connotations to the idea.

    Is this a function of religious teaching? Is it a function of feminism?

    I submit that God is the greatest practitioner of Dread known to mankind.

    The popular portrayals of Jesus as a very soft and meek individual is a huge part of the problem being propagated in churches everywhere. Hence it’s been a relative cakewalk for Feminists to overtake ” Good Christian ” men in the pews.

    WWJD if confronted by feminism? The guy that overturned tables in the temple and bucked the system under threat of death? Soft and meek? Me thinks not.

    It is not uncommon to hear/see women touting feminism inside the church. Emily is a prime example right here. She argues that she’s not doing so, but her words expose her.

    Christian men need something outside of the Church to help them regain their Godly position. There’s nothing Un-Godlike about dread game in marriage. The idea of men ceding power and authority to their wives is downright anti God.

  62. @ Andy : I appreciate the input.

    I am lifting weights, reading books and blogs. I’m now aware of shit tests. I’m fairly sure I will increase my SMV, and hope it will be enough to improve things significantly. If it isn’t it is still better to have a higher SMV.
    This is all stuff that I can do, should do, and am doing.
    For now I mostly stop short of practicing Game on other women.

    For someone in my circumstances (virgin bride, virgin groom) I really struggle believing that I have the knowledge of how to find a younger version of her. Abundance mentality applies to women in general, I don’t think it applies to virgin brides – but the benefits for LTR stability seem significant (I’ve been collecting links)
    http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/2503/her-notch-count-and-your-marriage

    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.pt/2012/03/fidelity-survey-results.html

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/03/26/pseudo-virginity/

    Furthermore, even if don’t care too much about the partner count, the real proof that I have what it takes to get a “younger version” is going how and doing just that – which if I want to stay faithful, “spinning a plate” to prove to myself I can is out of bounds.
    Some of you guys did that prior to getting married so you have a better idea of it, but I did not and have very little “real” experience (and just reading up on more theory can’t replace real experience).

  63. Emily, let me it try it a little more directly this time; you are confusing the feminine with feminism.

    Feminism is not the only path to female dominance. Just ask an Japanese salaryman with a traditional wife.

  64. Ias,

    You can cause dread and not “game” other women.

    Game is just the application of social skills. Dominance, leading, DHV, etc.

    Make a girl with higher smv than her laugh and she sees it, and you create dread. Make a friend of hers giggle, and you create dread. Pursue your life mission with passion and you create dread. Dress nicer and you create dread.

    I think a better way to think of this is you can “game” other women, but not “escalate” with other women and remain faithful.

    As for being a virgin groom, can’t help ya. I had very little sexual experience before the wife too, and the lack of knowing whether I “could” pull other women eventually caused me to actually pull other women. I was and am not secure enough in myself to remain faithful.

  65. Ias,

    Game your wife too. Play her emotions like an instrument. Leave logic at work.

    Those skills are transferable to other chicks, and she knows it.

    You’re on the right track if she starts testing it. “Do you think my friend is pretty?” “did you look at that chick?!”

    Here’s a good one, see a chick that looks hot? Say, “you would look great in that dress” or whatever

    You noticed the chick, but said she would look good too, does that mean that she don’t look as good as her? Or does she look as good and it was an innocent comment? Or were you just trying to get out of getting caught noticing her? But then why did you comment on it?

    Hamster short circuit…dread.

  66. Rollo,
    Glad you found the McSweeneys article ‘helpful’ or at least comedic and unfortunately often true.

  67. @Emily;

    “I’m sorry Rollo, I meant Heartiste.

    However, your statement:
    “Religion is no insulation against Hypergamy.”
    Tell that with a straight face to the 600 million Muslim women.”
    I do agree with that.

    As for Christianity being ‘feminized’ of course I disagree. It’s no secret that a vast majority of radical feminists are atheists, and are often united with the groups that seek to destroy Christianity.”

    First off, Rollo never stated this: “Tell that with a straight face to the 600 million Muslim women.” This was @Ang Aamer.

    Secondly, the existence of a large section of radical feminists who are atheists doesn’t negate the unimpeachable fact that christianity is feminized.

    Thirdly, there is no need to further doubt your inability to hold two parallel, or, diametrically opposed, thoughts in your head. The mere proof of this is you agreeing with the statement that religion cannot be insulated from hypergamy, which it can’t, and nothing can, while at the same time proudly enunciating that you find the thought of feminized christianity disagreeable.
    Feminization is a tool of hypergamy, and therefore if religion cannot be insulated, then, neither can christianity…where feminization has pervaded for the last 3-4 decades. Whether you choose to accept this reality, or not, in your head is impertinent and irrelevant, and frankly…just plain stupid…an indication that your $100,000+ tuition is a waste and you should probably spend time learning to inordinately sexually satisfy, your boyfriend, “cough” future husband “cough”, if not doing so already.

  68. @IliadsTangent:
    “Christian women were some of the most ruthlessly deceptive and hypergamous women I have ever interacted with.

    Were I offered a choice between a tattoo’d barfly and your typical church girl, I’d take the bar girl. ”

    I hear you….I would take both and make the christian woman my anything goes slut. :)….probably her sister too…

    That’s just me though…

  69. “I’m not saying all Christian men are default pussies or there are no Christian Alphas, just that the social environment that constitutes the church is so overwhelmingly conducive to creating and maintaining Beta men now it’s become endemic.”

    And here it is….in plain fucking sight!

    I used to be saved, “chose” to be celibate through my 20s….I saw this clearly….many saved chics getting impregnated by “bad boys” and then ‘coming back to the church’ to find ‘a good man’…(sigh)…The red pill….you really can’t go back…A man in his true nature is not controlled by lies, he sees them for what they are, their utility, context…and acts accordingly, of his own will.

  70. Also,

    Surely the fitbit guy was at least a bit satirical?

    Are men really that weak? Is that really the norm?

    I had an old friend of mine show up in my life recently. He had gotten divorced recently, and it destroyed him. He started dating a female friend of mine.

    He changed whatever he had to in his life to accommodate her. If she didn’t like something, he would change it. Always asking her how she was, and what she was doing, and trying so hard to please her.

    Even thought she is a 50+ notch count ex-AF frantically searching for her BB, she got disgusted and fired him. (I friend zoned her ass long ago)

    I thought his weakness was an apparition, is it really that bad with guys out there?

  71. Females are doubly impure than that of males:

    Leviticus 12King James Version (KJV)

    12 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

    3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

    4 And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

    5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

    6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:

    7 Who shall offer it before the Lord, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that hath born a male or a female.

    8 And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.

    1 in 1000 men are upright according to Solomon, but not even 1 in 1000 women are upright according to Solomon. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

    Ecclesiastes 7:25-29King James Version (KJV)

    25 I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:

    26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.

    27 Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:

    28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.

    29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    Hosea 4:6-7King James Version (KJV)

    6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

    7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

    Israel Punished through their women for worshiping false gods. They commit adultery against God, so God causes or allows their women to commit adultery against them:

    Hosea 4:10-14King James Version (KJV)

    10 For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase: because they have left off to take heed to the Lord.

    11 Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

    12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

    13 They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.

    14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.

    Consider Alice Bailey’s satanic 10 points about children’s rights:

    Isaiah 3:5-6King James Version (KJV)

    5 And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.

    6 When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and let this ruin be under thy hand:

    Curse of baldness and rotten crotch for promiscuous and revealing demeanor and dress of women:

    Isaiah 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)

    16 Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

    17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

  72. IAS @ 3:15 pm:
    “As a married man (virgin groom) which is not willing to cheat, I would very much welcome ideas for how to test myself to acquire or verify an abundance mentality and test for fear of rejection (hoping Rollo has good ideas on this, giving that the default for single guys would be “spinning plates” which I can’t do if I remain faithful).”

    Maybe cultivate an “I’m the King” mentality instead of an abundance mentality. Always sit at the head of the table. You get to pick the first doughnut. You drive the car. You walk in front. Strong eye contact. Rarely apologize or ask permission. The magic word is now “Master”, not “please”. That sort of thing.

    That’s a better fit to the Christian paradigm.

    The Question @ 4:07 pm:
    @ Rollo Tomasi, “it’s insulting that PUAs/Red Pill men need to instruct these guys in articles of doctrine with regard to intersexual relations.”

    Is it insulting to the Christian men who need the instruction despite attending church their whole lives, or insulting to the Red Pill men having to instruct them? (or both?).”

    The former. The insult is that cads and players understand Biblical principles better than the Churchians do. First the latter don’t learn their own religion’s beliefs and then they get offended when the former are happier and more successful with women.

    God has chosen the Rooshes of the world to shame the Stantons.

    Meanwhile, there’s no insult in deciding to wise up a chump. It’s just sad if the chump decides to be offended at the idea he’s a chump and instead of following your advice, he resolves forevermore to be a better chump.

  73. Isaiah 3:11-17King James Version (KJV)
    11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.
    12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
    13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.
    14 The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.
    15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
    16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
    17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

  74. We should see if the sales of vagisil douches go up. This will be a positive indicator of the above being true.

    Sorry for not being able to fit it in one post.

  75. @Emily

    Feminists are everywhere, it’s no surprise there are Christian feminists too.

    But is Christianity overall compatible with feminism? Is the Catholic church feminist? I don’t think so. Among which demographic will you find the most traditional gender role marriages? Which demographic most opposed abortion and no fault divorce? Yep, Christians, overwhelmingly.

    Jesus Christ.

    You confess that there are Christian feminists, but then denounce that Christianity is compatible with feminism… Wanna try that thought process again please, this time with a little less contradiction in the same comment.

    Also, again, you’re just kidding yourself with respect to which demographic opposed “no fault divorce” more…. Muslims actually oppose *any* control over the divorce process for women, so saying that Christians opposed “no fault” , “Overwhemingly” entirely overlooks other religions that are on a entirely different level of disagreement with it. You’re cherry-picking and it’s obvious.

  76. I’ve found that an effective way to introduce Christian men to the Red Pill is to remind them that women are affected by Original Sin as well. Then point out the passages of Scripture that urge men to avoid harlots.

    It’s still a major uphill battle. I’m a practicing Catholic and it’s true that, in theory, the Church is a thoroughly patriarchal institution. In practice, women run pretty much everything at the parish level that doesn’t explicitly require a priest. Even if you’re in the hospital, there’s a 50/50 chance it will be a little old lady who brings you the Eucharist.

  77. kobayashii1681
    People can twist any ideology…
    What I’m saying is that REAL Christian teachings are not compatible with radical feminism. Sure, Jesus never talked about gender roles, but St. Paul did, the Old Testament did. Because of that, several radical Christian feminists want to exclude the Pauline epistles and the Old Testament from the Bible, imagine that! But then, they are no longer practicing Christianity. True Christianity definitely teaches gender roles.

    But are the churches feminized? Some are, definitely. But most churches still oppose abortion and teach complimentarian marriages. True, they don’t teach the crap you guys believe, but then, they wouldn’t have any women in the churches.

    Also, I’m not talking any more about my personal life. So stop bringing it up.

  78. “Maybe cultivate an “I’m the King” mentality instead of an abundance mentality. Always sit at the head of the table. You get to pick the first doughnut. You drive the car. You walk in front. Strong eye contact. Rarely apologize or ask permission. The magic word is now “Master”, not “please”. That sort of thing.

    That’s a better fit to the Christian paradigm.”

    Cosigned, but I’d add that in order to enact this you need some degree of actual leverage in the relationship. And then you need to expand your emotional repertoire to include anger for disrespect or disobedience, etc. It all needs to be congruent, ‘real’ in the end.

    Robert Bly in ‘Iron John’ notes that modern men tend to lack what he calls ‘native barbarism’ – the sort of impulse that, say, makes male foxes drive their pups away at a certain age, or allows them to defend their territory. They ‘miss the spirit of Jesus’ instruction and bare the other cheek with no anger expressed in between’ (I’m paraphrasing, don’t have it in front of me).

    Nothing different from common redpill ideas, but ‘getting it’ sometimes means seeing it in many different forms and wordings.

    That Tony Soprano clip someone linked a thread or two back (as a way of showing how provisioning and dominance can be linked) is excellent instruction. Tony’s frame is reality. He doesn’t try to see it from anyone else’s perspective, as many of us instinctively would; he just expresses his rules and acts with justice (and a measured compassion) within them.

  79. gunnerq: “The insult is that cads and players understand Biblical principles better than the Churchians do. First the latter don’t learn their own religion’s beliefs and then they get offended when the former are happier and more successful with women.”

    While this is indeed the insult, the error of Christian men isn’t not learning their religion’s beliefs, but not understanding their purpose. Because it is “send by God” no one has to understand it, no one is asking the serious questions.

    Marriage lost it’s true spiritual value the moment divorce became a possibility. As long as it was “in good times as in bad times, until death do us apart”, there was actually an incentive to take care of the other. A wife wearing down her (beta-)man and his potential would suffer herself from it just as much. The moment divorce becomes a (real) possibility the necessity to perform increases and the weaker part will unavoidably experience dread.

    The Christian social order collapsed long ago. One important but misunderstood part at a time. There are still ruins which people use for whatever purposes, but they lost what it was made for.

    The age of the devil is coming! Prepare! I’ll give you some hint: Eva’s “snake” was actually a dick.

  80. @IAS – Not privy to how heavily the old ‘ball & chain’ holds you down but…maybe get hobbies away from home, some possibly around younger single women; you don’t have to fuck them (yet) but enjoy they’re company use your faithfulness to your wife to completely frolic amongst them being unbreakable…start keeping in shape if you’re not, even if you are start swimming maybe at your local gym around younger more available women, flirt with them, ALWAYS…don’t be going home early…don’t offer any explanations….

    Just my take…

  81. @Emily:

    “People can twist any ideology…”

    Does that include you??

    “What I’m saying is that REAL Christian teachings are not compatible with radical feminism….”

    No you are not. You claimed that christianity is not feminized.
    Even though you were trying to communicate the above, the 2 points again, that is, for clarity, the prevalence of feminized christianity, AND, that christian teachings do not espouse or support radical feminism, are not in disagreement.
    The latter still does not negate the former…back to you.

    “Sure, Jesus never talked about gender roles, but St. Paul did, the Old Testament did. Because of that, several radical Christian feminists want to exclude the Pauline epistles and the Old Testament from the Bible, imagine that! But then, they are no longer practicing Christianity. True Christianity definitely teaches gender roles.”

    This is inconsequential.

    “But are the churches feminized? Some are, definitely.”

    Two points…

    And…

    Also, I’m not talking any more about my personal life. So stop bringing it up.”

    I’ll bring it if I please and see fit. But yes, don’t talk about it any more.

  82. Christianity’s default position is one of self-loathing (original sin), putting something external to you first (What Would Jesus Do?), and prostrating yourself before authority. You really expect to get Alpha out of that in a feminist-leaning society?

    I was 100% pure Beta until I left the church. That’s when I started to gain self confidence, self esteem, and an ability to be selfish for the first time. Kind of hard to manifest Alpha at all when those things are pretty much beaten out of you from cradle to grave by the social institution you’re ordered to make the focus of your life under penalty of eternal suffering.

    Manifesting Dread in a monogamous relationship without being allowed to develop Alpha traits?

    #GoodLuckWIthThat

  83. @Sun:

    “I was 100% pure Beta until I left the church. That’s when I started to gain self confidence, self esteem, and an ability to be selfish for the first time. ”

    I can relate…

  84. Emily, God fearing Uber Christian said -” True, they don’t teach the crap you guys believe, but then, they wouldn’t have any women in the churches.”

    Ahem, the CRAP we believe falls in line with what is stated in the Bible my little FEMINIST flower.

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