Hypergamy Knows Best


One of the most basic Red Pill principles I’ve stressed since I began writing is the importance of Frame. The dynamic of Frame stretches into many aspects of a man’s life, but in a strictly intergender sense this applies to men establishing a positive dominance in their relationships with women. In a dating context of non-exclusivity (plate spinning) this means, as a man, you have a solid reality into which that woman wants to be included in. Holding Frame is not about force, or coercion, it’s about attraction and desire and a genuine want on the part of a woman to be considered for inclusion into that man’s reality.

Being allowed into a man’s dominant, confident Frame should be a compliment to that woman’s self-perception. It should be a prize she seeks.

This is a pretty basic principle when you think about it. The main reason women overwhelmingly prefer men older than themselves (statistically 5-7 years difference) is because of the psychological impression that men older than a woman’s age should be more established in his understanding of the world, his career, his direction in life and his mastery over himself and his conditions. From an Alpha Fucks perspective, the ambience of mastery makes an older man preferable, while a Beta Bucks older man represents the prospect of dependable provisioning.

In our contemporary sexual marketplace I think this perception – which used to hold true in a social climate based on the old set of books – is an increasing source of disappointment for women as they move from their post-college party years into the more stressful Epiphany Phase.

And once again we also see evidence of yet another conflict between egalitarianism vs. complementarity. Because all things should be equalized, equalism espouses that this age preference should make no difference in attraction, yet the influence of this natural complementary attraction becomes a source of internal conflict.

Women’s self-perception of personal worth becomes wrapped up in a tight egotistical package that’s tells her men – the men she’s convinced she deserves – should be attracted to and aroused by her based on whatever nebulous personal conviction she has, fat-acceptance approved ideas of what men should be hot for, and he ought to be ready to settle into a coequal parental ‘partnership’ when she’s finally ready to do the right thing.

It’s an interesting paradox. On one hand she’s expects a Hypergamously better than equitable pairing with a self-made man who will magically appreciate her for her self-perceptions of her own personal worth, but also to be, as Sheryl Sandberg puts it, “someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.” In other words, an exceptional, high SMV man, with a self-earned world and Frame she wants to partake of; but also one who will be so smitten by her intrinsic qualities (the qualities she hopes will compensate for her physical and personal deficits) that he will compromise the very Frame that made him worthy of her intimacy, and then reduce himself to an equality that lessens him to her.

The Red Pill Father – Frame

The reason I’m going into this is because of a basic tenet of Frame: The Frame you set in the beginning of your relationship will set the tone for the future of that relationship. That isn’t to say men don’t devolve from a strong Alpha frame to a passive Beta one, but the Frame you enter into a relationship with will be the mental impression that woman retains as it develops. Your establishment and maintenance of a strong control of Frame is not just imperative to a healthy relationship and interaction with a woman, but it’s also vital to the health of any family environment and the upbringing of any children that result from it.

At the Man In Demand conference I was asked about my thoughts on the influence family plays in conditioning boys/men to accept a Beta role in life. Mainly the question was about a mother’s dominant influence on her children’s upbringing and how an unconventional shift in intersexual hierarchies predisposes her to imprinting her Hypergamous insecurities onto her children. It gave me a lot to think about.

A common thread I’ve occasionally found with newly Red Pill aware men is the debilitating influence their domineering mothers and Beta supplicating fathers played in forming their distorted perception of masculinity. I made an attempt to address this influence in the Intersexual Hierarchies posts, however, I intended those essays to provide an outline of particular hierarchical models, not really to cover the individual health or malaise of any of them.

From Frame:

The default pedestalization of women that men are prone to is a direct result of accepting that a woman’s frame is the only frame. It’s kind of hard for most ‘plugged in’ men to grasp that they can and should exert frame control in order to establish a healthy future relationship. This is hardly a surprise considering that every facet of their social understanding about gender frame has always defaulted to the feminine for the better part of their lifetimes. Whether that was conditioned into them by popular media or seeing it played out by their beta fathers, for most men in western culture, the feminine reality IS the normalized frame work. In order to establish a healthy male-frame, the first step is to rid themselves of the preconception that women control frame by default. They don’t, and honestly, they don’t want to.

Post LTR Frame
In most contemporary marriages and LTR arrangements, women tend to be the de facto authority. Men seek their wive’s “permission” to attempt even the most mundane activities they’d do without an afterthought while single. I have married friends tell me how ‘fortunate’ they are to be married to such an understanding wife that she’d “allow” him to watch hockey on their guest bedroom TV,…occasionally.

These are just a couple of gratuitous examples of men who entered into marriage with the frame firmly in control of their wives. They live in her reality, because anything can become normal. What these men failed to realize is that frame, like power, abhors a vacuum.  In the absence of the frame security a woman naturally seeks from a masculine male, this security need forces her to provide that security for herself. Thus we have the commonality of cuckold and submissive men in westernized culture, while women do the bills, earn the money, make the decisions, authorize their husband’s actions and deliver punishments. The woman is seeking the security that the man she pair-bonded with cannot or will not provide.

It is vital to the health of any LTR that a man establish his frame as the basis of their living together before any formal commitment is recognized.

The primary problem men encounter with regard to their marriages is that the dominant, positively masculine Frame they should have established while single (and benefitting from competition anxiety) decays to a Beta mindset and the man abdicates authority and deference to his wife’s feminine primary Frame. This is presuming that dominant Frame ever existed while he was dating his wife. Most men experience this decay in three ways:

  • A decline to his wife’s Frame via his relinquishing an authority he isn’t comfortable embracing.
  • An initial belief in a misguided egalitarian ideal that redefines masculinity has him surrender Frame
  • He was so pre-whipped by a lifetime of Blue Pill Beta conditioning he already expects to live within a woman’s Frame

Of these, the last is the most direct result of an upbringing within a feminine-primary Frame. I think one of the most vital realizations a Red Pill man has to consider is how Red Pill truths and his awareness of them influences the meta-dynamic of raising and instructing subsequent generations.

As I’ve intoned in many a post, Hypergamy is both pragmatic and rooted in a survival-level doubt about its optimization. When a woman’s insecurity about her life-determining Hypergamous decisions are concretely answered by the positively, conventionally, masculine Man who is both her pair-bonded husband and the father of her children, that doubt is allayed and a gender-complementary environment for raising children proceeds from that security.

In a positively masculine dominant Frame, where that woman’s desire is primarily focused on her man, (and where that man’s SMV exceeds his wife’s by at least a factor of 1) this establishes at least a tenable condition of quieting a woman’s Hypergamous doubt about the man she’s consolidated monogamy and parental investment with.

In a condition where that husband is unable or unwilling (thanks to egalitarian beliefs) to establish his dominant Frame this leaves a woman’s Hypergamous doubt as the determinant of the health of the overall family. That doubt and the insecurities that extend from Hypergamous selection set the tone for educating any children that result from it.

In the last post I made the case that deliberately single, primarily female, parents arrogantly assume they can teach a child both masculine and feminine aspects equally well. In the case where a wife/mother assumes the headship of family authority, both she and the Frame abdicating father/husband reverse this conventional gender modeling for their children.

That woman’s dominant Frame becomes the reality not just her husband must enter, but also their children, and also their family relatives. That feminine dominant Frame is one that is predicated on the insecurities inherent in women’s Hypergamous doubts.

Is he really the best she can do?”

Play Don’t Pay had an observation from the last post:

I think this “putting the kids first” phenomenon is very simple to explain. She DOESN’T WANT TO FUCK YOU!
She is using the kids as a shield, a barrier to deflect your UNWANTED BETA SEXUAL ADVANCES.
It is generally accepted that women are only interested in the top 20% of men, and if you are talking about as marriage partners I would agree with this.

However if you are talking about as SEX partners that they are genuinely hot for I would estimate this percentage to be north of 5% add in the frame required to maintain her SEXUAL interest in a marriage / LTR and your probably closer to 1-2%.
It’s really that simple! the women that are with these top tier men, the top 1-2% don’t need to be told to put them before the kids, they do it because he IS more important to her than her kids, because if he leaves she will never be able to replace him with another top tier man now she has his kids in tow.

Top tier men don’t raise other mens children and she knows this instinctively.
If you think you can mitigate this by being top 20% and reading a few articles on frame and dread game then I think you will be disappointed.

Sure you can improve your relationship but your probably not going to be able to command the visceral raw desire that women have for the top tier men that makes the do this shit naturally under their own violation.

“Is he really the best she can do?”

In a feminine-primary Frame, that question defines every aspect of that family’s life and development together. It’s important for Red Pill aware men to really meditate on that huge truth. If you do not set, and maintain, a dominant masculine Frame, if you do not accept you role in a conventional complementary relationship, that woman will feel the need to assume the responsibility for her own, and her children’s, security. Women’s psychological firmware predispose them to this on a visceral, limbic, species-survival level.

I’ve met with countless men making a Red Pill transition in life who’ve related stories about the burdening influence of their domineering mothers and Beta supplicating fathers leading to them being brought up to repeat that Blue Pill cycle. I’ve also counseled guys who were raised by their single mothers who had nothing but spite and resentment for the Alpha Asshole father who left her. They too took it upon themselves to be men who sacrifice their masculinity for equalism in order to never be like Dad the asshole. I’ve met with the guys whose mothers had divorced their dutiful fathers to bang their bad boy tingle generating boyfriends (whom they equally despised) and they too were molded by their mother’s Hypergamous decisions.

And this is what I’m trying to emphasize here; in all of these upbringing conditions it is the mother’s Hypergamous doubt that is the key motivating influence on her children. That lack of a father with a positive, strong, dominant Frame puts his children at risk of an upbringing based on that mother’s Hypergamous self-questioning doubt. Add to this the modern feminine-primary social order that encourages women’s utter blamelessness in acting upon this Hypergamous doubt and you can see how the cycle of creating weak, gender confused men and vapid entitled women perpetuates itself.

Finally, to the guys who are psychologically stuck on the shitty conditions they had to endure because of this cycle, to the men who are still dealing with how mommy fucked them up or daddy was a Beta; the best thing you can do is recognize the cycle I’ve illustrated for you here. That’s the first step. The Red Pill is great at getting you laid, but it’s much more powerful than that; it gives you the insight to see the influences that led to where you find yourself today.

Once you’ve recognized the Red Pill truths behind your Blue Pill conditioning, then it’s time to realign yourself, and recreate yourself in defiance to them. The longer you wallow in the self-pitiful condition that your mother’s Hypergamy and your father’s passive Beta-ness embedded in you, the longer you allow that Blue Pill  schema to define who you are.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

464 comments on “Hypergamy Knows Best

  1. Great, as usual Rollo.

    You know, there will never be enough mentions of ” Frame “.

    Looking back, all of the influential men I’ve known had a strong frame and never relinquished it.

    One of my coworkers remarked once that I ” be sure to ask the girls to let me watch the game..”. I literally did not know what he was talking about.

    I think that for some, retaining frame ( or even establishing it ) is really hard. If you’re frameless to begin with it can seem to be an awful lot of work with the constant recalibrating that may be required. What’s not understood is that it will become 1st nature.

    Until this is understood, no man should enter into any kind of ” serious ” relationship. It’s about Relation To. A man’s gotta know where he is in relation to his environment at all times. Establishment of a strong, unwavering frame places you in a great place with regards to any relationship you can become involved in.

    I love my family. Because I love them it is imperative for my frame to stand and for it to be strong enough to guide them all. Of course there is the selfish reason to always hold frame… It makes my life so much less complicated.

    Again, thank you for the time and brain cells you expend.

    ….wait…. waitaminute… Am I in YOUR frame???? Ohhhhh Noooooooo!!!!!!

  2. And if you’re already a father: a key part of keeping and maintaining that Frame is to be a Dad. A Dad is not a Mom. And should not just be a second Mom.

    I would love to say I discovered this on top of a mountain, and came down to shout it at you soulless masses, but honestly I just lucked into it. Just started doing it literally from day 1 and never let up. I made lots of other mistakes (which is why I started hunting round these parts a few years back) but never slipped into being Mom #2.

  3. “The main reason women overwhelmingly prefer men older than themselves (statistically 5-7 years difference) is because of the psychological impression that men older than a woman’s age should be more established in his understanding of the world, his career, his direction in life and his mastery over himself and his conditions.”

    Used to hear people say that women with older men was due to girls maturing faster than boys. Biggest bunch of crap, unless they were talking about physically. Which they weren’t.
    I’ve long noticed that with every girl or woman that I’ve come across, when it came to entertaining them, you don’t have to change anything when it comes to jokingly charm a 3rd grader to a 30 yr old. It all works the same. Men just learn more and get better at dealing with women.

    Your comments about marriage blueing down a man reminded me of an article about men becoming more charitable with their money if they have daughters. The article framed it as the fathers becoming better. Didn’t think to approach the idea (no surprise) that when it came to having sons, men would have a tendency to try to teach them that nobody is going to give you anything. You have to make your way.
    And it also made me think of how unknowingly men can start the boulder rolling with a glaringly obvious example that they participate in willingly. They work hard to buy a house, may or may not be paid for by him and her, but all the decorating of the house is entirely her decisions.
    When it comes to making the empty box yours, you have no say, so it really isn’t yours.(Cue Man in the Garage post)

    It also made me think of the actor Anthony Anderson, who has recently announced his divorce from his wife of about 20 years, or could be more. All the entertainment shows are talking about him coming up and deciding to trade up or move on. Which could very well be. Or it could also be he doesn’t want to change his lifestyle just because a new show is a hit. He knows how quickly things can fade. But his wife wants to dive into the spoils of being on a hit tv show. If he says nope, going to keep things the same, she can divorce, get half of what he may get when the show starts a second season, and dive into a hit show lifestyle anyway.

  4. This post forms the basis of the “Boyfriend Destroyer” game. The idea of telling a girl with a boyfriend or husband that “he sounds nice”…”I’m sure he puts you on a pedestal”… “You’re probably the best he could ever do…and so that’s why he treats you so special”… “It’s great to be with someone you see as such a great friend…”

    This starts to flip the switch in a girl’s desire.

  5. I love reading the family posts. The family has been destroyed by subsidizing men out of it via divorce rape, welfare systems, propaganda, ect…

    Men have to take back the definition of what a husband and father MUST be. Our civil society benefits from men being the primary.

    The Beta is always dangerous & a threat to civil society. That’s why Betas were historically conquered, castrated, enslaved, & outright wiped out. If you were strong then you got land, labor, & harems. Men before us figured that out long ago, and there is no way a world built by men could ever be ran by anything other than men. Even the family structure whether it’s polygamy or monogamy is best from a man’s Alpha frame, and that structure helped keep everyone safe. Period.

    “Man up” back in the day meant don’t be a coward or you and your entire tribe ARE going to get wiped out by your neighbor wanting your resources, territory, and women.

  6. If I had a dollar for every time I saw a clown mom like the one in your picture with a couple poorly behaved street urchins in tow, I’d be running for president and making offensive statements that the press loved to hate me for.

  7. In most contemporary marriages…women tend to be the de facto authority. Men seek their wive’s “permission”

    While I know a lot of married Catholic guys who are way beta, nearly all are still pretty traditional about authority (in public at least) and thus wives usually defer to the husband.

    Only in areas of domesticated life (cooking, sewing, female-social stuff) do women generally act as an authority. If anything, women seem pissed off when husband won’t lead (not uncommon). It’s like a race to the bottom, everyone trying to avoid responsibility…and hence authority. Probably a difference with larger families, which truly need a male leader to function well.

  8. Spot on and what I needed tonight, reinforcement about frame.

    This post and a few others I’ve read lately digging deep into the Rational Male archives is helping understand the consequences of the Red Pill as well as the critical need for a new frame I can live with.

    Frame was on my mind on my return home from traveling for a work conference. My on/off girlfriend wanted me to go over to her place tonight and texted me so. Replied I would try to be there early when she got off work, but let her knew I needed to see my kids and give my loyal dog some attention before seeing her.

    My teenage daughter was so adorable surprising me with early birthday gifts and doing a few things around the house while I was gone. Delighted to talk with her about college visits and how nice her simple but thoughtful gifts were. Totally lost track of time, realized I was late and texted the gf to let her know. Then I made the decision I needed to do what I WANTED to do, head to the gym before seeing her. After my workout which was needed after long flights I headed over to the gf’s place. I knew she would be pissed I was late.

    Got the cold shoulder and dour faced dissatisfaction that I was now about 90 minutes late. She was waiting for my apology, which she did not get. Damn happy I was able to maintain this tiny slice of frame. After a bit of mundane chitchat and listening to her complain with baiting (shit test) waiting for my apology I then mentioned I wasn’t just late because I was with my daughter but that I also hit the gym. That pushed her over the edge and she got pissy and suggested why don’t I just leave. That is her go to tactic to try and assert control and keep all the power. I stood up and firmly said I had things to do and wasn’t apologizing. She called me insensitive and that I was dismissive for not letting her express how hurt she was by my tardiness.

    I knew I MUST maintain so I reminded her she expressed herself three times in the short span on how rude I was by not giving her updates on my schedule. Then stated firmly that I would never apologize for doing what I wanted to do and walked out the door.

    I know this may seem trite to some and what evs, no biggie. In the past though my blue would have come out waving the white flag apologizing profusely for being a dick about being late and that it was my fault for hurting her feelings. Following some emotional caving we would have snuggled and then had terrific sex. The sex was about 3/4 of the reason I visited her in the first place. Lately after becoming red pill aware sex with her has been out of this world with her responding to the new me with a voracious appetite for getting fucked good and hard. No lame beta sex, hard and masculine.

    For sex I would always cave. When I did so it gave her more power. She has been so accustomed to that it freaked her out with how I engaged with her over a simple thing as being late and refusing to apologize. I knew missing on on some awesome sex was not nearly as important as maintaining this new frame. She loves the new masculine me, but for sure does not like it when I firmly let her know I had things I wanted to do. This was all about power and her maintaining it. By walking out I also let her know her pussy wasn’t wasn’t enough for me to cave.

    Thanks Rollo and all you MEN that keep this blog going strong. Had I not known about what frame is I wouldn’t be posting a comment right now, I would be fucking her brains out. And I would have hated myself for gulping down a dose of beta blue.

  9. “The Red Pill is great at getting you laid, but it’s much more powerful than that; it gives you the insight to see the influences that led to where you find yourself today.

    Once you’ve recognized the Red Pill truths behind your Blue Pill conditioning, then it’s time to realign yourself, and recreate yourself in defiance to them.”

    This is what I call peeling back the layers of social conditioning.

    Why does a guy give a fuck what kind of car he drives? What neighborhood he lives in? What name is stamped on his clothing?

    I’m not advocating wearing dirty t-shirts and driving a Geo Metro your whole life, but most guys are going through the motions in the (false) belief that it will get them laid.

    “Realigning yourself” means looking at all of that bullshit and wondering why you thought it was necessary in the first place (it obviously isn’t, men got laid before Ferraris and custom suits were invented).

    In my grandfather’s generation (WW2 veterans who faced death every day), it was pretty common for a guy to need the “game” of asking a girl’s father if he could take her out. Now, look at all the bullshit these phonies have sold us in the past 60 years.

    Does blowing money on stupid shit and learning parlor tricks make you more of a man? Does it feed the pockets of car dealerships and PUAs? What do we really want out of women?

  10. As men, we can never forget that govt has replaced us as the real authority in the home. All western women know that at any moment they can dial 911 and summon a swat team to keep their man in line. My marriage was destroyed 10 years ago after I was falsely accused of child abuse. (Told teen daughter to clean room; all hell broke lose!) My wife and daughter stood by and watched me get ruffed up and bullied by the police, who spent an hour instructing my family that I was not the head of household and had no right to run my home. My family lost respect for me because I lost frame to the govt. It’s hard to regain respect and maintain frame after a swat team has bullied you and threatened your life in front of your family. My family fell apart after that. Even if you’re a tough man with good frame, you’re no competition for the govt. The entire system is on the side of women. Never marry, you’re only competing with the govt.

    1. @SkidRowe

      Wow. That sucks, but you’re correct. The govt is a threat because it can use force to inflict its authority.

    2. If you know the cops have been called, get out of the house and drive away. If you can, take all cell phones and make the woman leave if she wants to call the cops from the neighbor. You still need to drive away from the house. On the fastest road available. Keep your cell and keep it on. You want the cops to call you and activate your locator so that they know that you are driving away. After five min. turn off your cell and take back streets. The cops should be gone after a couple of hours. Your woman will move out.

      You will likely need to play hide and seek with the cops at your house a couple of times over the next week or two.

      You will get major Bad Boy cred from this.

  11. @Rollo

    As for the subject at hand, there’s a billboard up near where I live for one of the local motorcycle dealers. Pics of a couple new bikes with the words “Your wife called and said it’s OK!” in big letters.

    Even in my most Blue Pill days, I found the idea of asking a wife for “permission” for something offensive. Now? Seeing a sign like that makes me want to beat the shit out of every guy that says “Ha ha, that’s totally my marriage!”

    Fuck everyone that’s worked together to make that sign the zeitgeist, and fuck every man that goes along without questioning it.

  12. @Rollo

    Thanks for this article. While the bulk of it does not reflect my experience (hypergamous mom or beta dad) I know plenty of people for whom this does apply and I think it’s a good message. The one issue I took was from early in the piece when you said, “… and he ought to be ready to settle into a coequal parental ‘partnership’ when she’s finally ready to do the right thing.”
    The “right thing” here seems to imply a moral judgement. It’s a hard truth, but it’s one I learned here; Sexual strategy is amoral. I don’t think it’s fair to categorize this behavior, even if it does appear to be the rational and most efficient/effective one, as “right” or “correct.” perhaps I’m misreading this in context. But I think this deserved comment. Thanks again.

  13. I’ve employed the plate spinning philosophy so long I’ve forgotten what its like doing the LTR thing, so help me out Rollo (and others)- how does a man in an LTR / marriage defend his frame?

    Assuming a man has fully repudiated BluePill schemas and is thus squared away, how can he defend his lifestyle from inevitable assaults by FI enabled society on the same- without resorting to pathologically harmful expressions of dark triad behaviors?

    Sure a man can hold frame in his spouses presence and against her shit tests , but once the sun comes up and he’s away at work BluePill society gets her ear. Facebook, Internet, work, friends, family, government, all in lockstep behind the FI. Even if your frame is adamantium, how the heck can you literally resist society’s influence? You’re one dude vs everyone, all of whom want you dragged to the altar in chains….or if that’s already happened, browbeaten into a proper plowhorse for your wife.

  14. I like posts going into more details about Frame because it is an abstract concept that I struggle with. That is a bit problematic because it seems to be the most important concept in Red Pill.

    It doesn’t seem one can just reduce Frame to “Invariably do whatever you want to do”, although doing what one wants to do without asking for permission and without apologising after is part of it.

    For Men that are in LTRs they entered prior to learning about Frame like me, I think it is even harder.

    I know in my case due to some of my personality traits and convictions I never completely abdicated of my own Frame but I’m convinced I apologised too many times after my spouse was hurt by my “selfishness”.

    I welcome efforts that can help me clarify the concept!

  15. Rollo,

    I really enjoyed this post, thank you. I think it’s one of the best one’s you’ve done in a long time.

    I am a happily married woman (I am subscribed to your newsletter, that’s how I find your new material).

    My husband is pretty great but he is not the richest guy or the fittest guy around.

    But he does a really, really good job maintaining what you refer to as dominant frame. And that is definitely what attracted me to him. It’s his world, and I’m living in it. That feels safe. This was not true with my prior boyfriends.

    I just wanted to emphasize again that a man doesn’t have to be THE GREATEST GUY EVER to keep what you call hypergamous doubt at bay.

    He just has to be the leader of his family and stay firm in that, even when his wife argues (early in our marriage, I argued a lot more. I stopped when I realized it was a waste of time).

    Sure, if I encounter a higher SMV I might have a second of “oh man, I wish my husband was like that.” But since on a day-to-day basis I feel truly lucky to be his wife and very attracted to him, that feeling passes as quickly as it came in.

  16. Shout it from the mountaintop Rollo!

    Pay attention men considering marriage: Not falling into the feminine frame also means 1) Not “asking” her to marry you, and 2) for God’s sake not getting down on 1 knee to “propose.” I think “poor dumb sap” whenever I see that.

    I speak with the zeal of the converted.

    I was reared beta as they come. Fortunately I dicovered red pill and cast off that yoke.

    I didn’t “ask” my wife to marry me. I said “I want you to become my wife” during a nice, unplanned moment together (I had decided already.) She agreed right away. It was the correct frame. Doing it that way felt mighty right and started things off correctly.

    After turning red pill I saw with clarity how much our society bends men to the feminine imperitive. With awareness though comes the ability to evaporate the chains with little effort.

  17. One more thought.

    Don’t do any special thing when you tell your girl you want her to be your wife. I’ve noticed a correlation between elaborate blue pill marriage proposals and being hauled to divorce court and ass-raped.

  18. It occurred to me while reading this how tightly bound frame is to not having oneitis. Any man with oneitis will simply not be able to maintain frame. It is simply impossible. If your new to this and dating some chick and trying to figure out how to run tight game because you know “she’s the one”, then you better back up a few more steps because you can’t see the forest for the trees yet. Go read the posts one oneitis. That needs to be the very next beast you kill.

    I think we also sometimes loose frame because we honestly don’t care about some shit she thinks is critically important. Decorating the bathroom for example. I honestly couldn’t give a f**k what she does to it. To her though, I’m making her make all the decisions, and frame is lost.

    Regarding the government, all of the previous posts are spot on. Getting married at all today is simply the most blue-pill thing you could do. I think it is still possible, but I wouldn’t want to run the odds. I will say this though. If a woman ever calls the cops on you, your relationship had better be over in your mind before she even hangs up the phone.

    Man kids complicate it though. You know that when you walk out on her, she will likely get the kids and the blue-pill cycle starts all over again for the very people you love the most.

  19. This explains something I’d had a hard time understanding. I was trying to explain to some BP and feminist females in long term relationships (with and without children) that when the kids come along, despite any bonding, I want to put Jon first. My reasoning was: children benefit from good fathers more than from coddling, only infants need your constant undivided physical contact and attention, reproduction-wise a sickly or dead baby can be replaced, whereas without my husband there would be no more babies. Now, I hope it never comes to a life-vs-life choice. I want to keep my children alive and happy as well as Jon, but if I were in a situation where one would die, I trust myself to choose Jon.

    They didn’t get it. Even the ones without children got angry that my husband needed to come first. And now I see why.

    1. Hi Superslaviswife – while I completely get where you are coming from, I think it’s just a really incendiary topic.

      You may not have taken this approach, but some women who take this position really emphasize how much MORE important to them their husband is than their children. And I think that emphasis really gets under people’s skin. For me personally, when I think about it it makes me upset because I felt like my step-father (mother was widowed) was much more important to her than I was, and it was very painful. Other people bring their own baggage to the table when this topic comes up, and they get upset.

      Again, I actually agree with your position and your reasoning, but I’m happy that you mentioned that in most situations of course you want everyone in the family to be prioritized. It’s only boundary situations where a choice would really have to be made.

      1. Definitely. 🙂 And I think it also helps our future family that we both really want children. Had I settled with a man who never once mentioned kids, or got pregnant and roped him into it, the balance would be harder. Instead, I’m with a man who mentioned his desire to reproduce before we even expressed interest in each other and made it clear from the start of the relationship that by 30 he wanted his first child. I have no doubt that Jon will also be working towards keeping the family united and happy.

        If you try and put a selfish, oblivious or resentful person before everyone else, they see the inch and take the mile. But if the person who comes first loves the family as much as you do, then it seems easier to keep everyone happy.

  20. @ Skid Rowe 12:30AM
    I’m very sorry for you. How fucked up can a woman be to call the cops on her husband AND THEN lose respect for him because he didn’t “stand up” to them? In other words, because he didn’t get himself killed.

  21. Nice in theory Rollo. But the only reason the top guys maintain frame is the wife or girlfriend does not want to blow up a good thing. Tell all this to guy making 45000 a year with a working wife and her gov thugs and he would just shake his head.

  22. @SkidRowe

    I would wager that a non-negligible percentage of cops become cops so they can white knight for “abused” women.

  23. I used to have an extremely strong frame with my wife, but it’s really slipped. She now very clearly sees me as a beta and shit tests me constantly. On top of this, I just discovered I have low testosterone. When I try to push myself back into my more alpha frame, I find that I don’t “have the stomach for it.” I suspect that’s a symptom of the low T, but it’s been very tough to push through. I’ve become too emotional lol.

  24. @dutchman
    Exactly. And every single one of them thinks he’s doing the right thing. They fully embrace the blue pill definition of a good man. Funny. I wonder if that’s why cop uniforms are always blue. 🙂

  25. “They didn’t get it. Even the ones without children got angry that my husband needed to come first. And now I see why.”

    Is it just me or is the idea of women overtly accepting/stating RP principles on here strange/weird? It almost doesn’t seem genuine or there’s a sense of it being done for an unnatural reason. It’s kind of the opposite of “just getting it” for men.

    1. I thought that too, at first. Then, I realized that not giving your woman the red pill is at this stage in society will only cause allow her blue pill friends free reign to fool her head with nonsense.

      Since she grew up SWPL, she had a very blue pill perspective. This caused her to constantly compete for frame despite the fact she more or less approached me with romantic interest (strong hamster). I considered our common interests, beliefs, and life goals, so I decided to invest the time to deprogram her. It wasn’t easy, and the fact that I had an entire community of matriarchal cultists masquerading as new age hippies trying to sabotage our relationship, I didn’t budge.

      Now, only a few short months later, she is becomes more feminine by the day. She openly states she wants to be the mother of my children, gets excited by the thought of my cock in her throat, and can’t stand the thought of losing me.

      As long as you are using game to slowly administer her prescription, she will swallow it. I’m sure Rollo can relate since his wife probably knows he’s a famous red pill author.

  26. >that man’s SMV exceeds his wife’s by at least a factor of 1

    A “factor” is a multiplicative constant, that sentence makes no sense.

    Anyway. Consuming male on female porn is pleasuring yourself while watching other man fuck a girl you desire. So isn’t kids sexually grown with a normalizing cuckhold mindset?

  27. “Is it just me or is the idea of women overtly accepting/stating RP principles on here strange/weird?”

    Kind of like guys marching in slut walks. haha. I think they probably just love men. Too bad we can’t test how hypergamically satisfied with their husbands they really are. 🙂

    1. Andy – are you implying there is something wrong with it? I do love men. I have never had a man-hating streak in me. However, I don’t hate women either, and I strive for balance.

  28. @Bromeo

    Is it just me or is the idea of women overtly accepting/stating RP principles on here strange/weird? It almost doesn’t seem genuine or there’s a sense of it being done for an unnatural reason. It’s kind of the opposite of “just getting it” for men.

    Women are fully capable of reasoning out anything a man might be able to reason out. The problem with most modern women is they don’t question their premises first, and as a result use that reasoning power for tremendous feats of fallacious thinking.

    If you’ll notice, the ladies commenting here and on the previous thread lurk and read a lot, and comment little. This tells you that they recognize the value, not just to men here, but to themselves in understanding men. This tells you that they recognize that the rest of the world is female-thinking being expressed all the time, and that the expression here is rare and precious in comparison. It’s also indicative to me that these ladies recognize that female-attention seeking in a masculine forum is entirely disruptive, just based on male biology alone.

    I’m glad there are some women who got the message that was expressed so many threads ago, that coming here and throwing female charm around is destructive and selfish.

    This will never make me stop questioning what they say in their comments, but you should expect that ladies, since I even question Rollo here.

  29. @SJF
    Thank you for the link reference, had not read that. It’s a perfect post from Rollo and the timing couldn’t be better. Now I need to disengage for a few days and then work the subtle.

    Self mastery does seem to be the key with this. Fortunately I’m working this from many angles. It’s not just a on pronged approach to my girlfriend, but includes mastery over compulsive decisions, alcohol, weed, sex and self pleasure. It’s a big bundle that is all tied together and must be addressed holistically in order for me to find success and create this frame. It’s very challenging and I truly believe if I was not working every angle of it, especially mastery over sex, then I doubt the success. I would just end up annoying my girlfriend and she would know it’s a temporary thing.

    In the end I have to figure out if this chick is worth it or move on. Since my focus is more about me I’m not having anxiety attacks about not getting laid or apologizing. For others working on similar transitions I strongly suggest reading the link SJF shared:

    It’s spot on and for most guys makes perfect sense. It’s what I tell my peers and coworkers, the best idea isn’t worth a shit without proper execution. What I’m starting to see is:

    – Awareness/realization
    – Conscious decision to change
    – Goals and plans
    – Execution, without this it’s just talk or fantasy.
    – Maintenance

    I’m only into this a few weeks and feel like a total rookie. It’s not easy if you’ve lived your entire life as a beta. There is no quick fix. You can find small successes that bring happiness in knowing you’re doing the right thing. My daughter has even noticed small changes and is encouraging me to keep making change in my life. That is very rewarding after an ugly separation and divorce where my kids became pawns and their mother manipulated them into believing I was an evil asshole.

    Agreed on the gov’t having all the power. You can’t fight that so you have to work around it. As many have stated, don’t get married. I never will again. Obviously struggling with the girlfriend and figuring that out still, thankfully we have no kids or financial strings attached. One of my goals is to never again sacrifice my goals and integrity for anyone. It’s not being selfish to state that. Interestingly I recently noticed my teen daughter had plucked my copy of The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand off my bookshelf and has it in her bedroom. Whatever the sources for understanding inspiration, I’m keeping them close and reading often.

  30. “Andy – are you implying there is something wrong with it? I do love men.”

    Absolutely not. I love women too. There’s a lot of men here that could make you a very happy woman ;-). Is that what you like about being here?

  31. @SD October 1st, 2015 at 1:43 am

    “I’ve employed the plate spinning philosophy so long I’ve forgotten what its like doing the LTR thing, so help me out Rollo (and others)- how does a man in an LTR / marriage defend his frame?”

    I can speak to that. Based on my demographic.You just do it.

    Blaximus and Anonymous Reader lately have spelled this out perfectly in spirit recently. Those guys are wise. You carry on as a man and don’t complain with inner strength according to Blaximus. (What Blaximus doesn’t say is that he personally has tremendous inner strength, skills and fortitude and personal wisdom from his fore-fathers. He is good at being a man. This helps in keeping frame. It helps in being an oak tree in a furious storm.) And Anon Reader says it well when he speaks of the need for unshakeable frame. Just do it.

    For me it has come with a mindset of STOICISM, eliminating my weaknesses, overlooking my spouses minor weaknesses (with the understanding that some of them are minor AWALT stuff). And then full bore masculine self improvement with guidance from the manosphere.
    It works. Esp. it the woman you are with is a full on unicorn. (half serious). And then like Anonymous Reader says keep rock solid frame. With the understanding that Frame is not power. You still have to have personal qualities. (Heheh, Be like Blaximus.)

  32. Game is kind of a beautiful thing when you step back and look at it. Women have evolved to be attracted to the things that make a man successful, but not necessarily the success itself. The more you develop as a man socially and internally the more attractive you become.

    It gives you a new appreciation for women. At the same time it’s impossible not to understand game and realize that women are simply the rewards of greatness. Maybe even the enablers of greatness. But they never have been and never will be the source of greatness. It is an unexpected (for me) aspect of evolution.

  33. @Andy,

    Rewards is I think slightly off as a term there. Rewards often are the motivation for something, they are the incentive that is set in place to motivate people towards something. While it’s certainly worthwhile to make women the reward for learning game/going out/etc… it shouldn’t be the reason you make yourself great. “Award” might be more accurate, since awards are unexpected and “cherry on top” things that typically are given to those people with significant achievements. Women are more like the awards of masculinity/greatness, not rewards.

  34. @Jeremy

    Hmm, yeah maybe. But like have you had sex before? Turning a woman into a starry eyed satiated puddle and having them look up at you like a God is the best thing in the world.

  35. I have been reading this site for quite a while and have always been impressed with the quality of the articles and the clarity with which the message is conveyed. Much better than any site out there IMO. It’s been quite the eye-opener being exposed to the Red Pill; it’s amazing how much it changes your perspective. The biggest thing I’ve noticed is how easy it is now to pick out FI garbage in the media that I would have just glossed over before and not really paid much attention to. A perfect example:


    The old me would have just glossed over something like this without much thought, and while subconsciously knowing deep down that this would NEVER be me, still probably nodding in agreement of “what a nice guy” and “great of this dad to include the stepdad” type drivel….After months of Red Pill though this story makes me almost sick to my stomach. Here you have this picture-perfect beta stepdad, being LED BY THE HAND by the real father, in tears at being so happy just to be included in his stepdaughters wedding. How a man can let himself be so emasculated is beyond me, as this goes against every male instinct that I possess. I might come off as harsh, but the pathetic weakness here just gnaws at me. Not only did this guy sign up to be cucked for years through marriage, but he is shown just how irrelevant he is that after years and years of cuck-servience and supporting another man’s child, he is STILL at the mercy of the real fathers subtle but actual authority and “permission” to be included at the wedding. He is only acknowledged because real father allowed him to be. Real dad literally grabbed him and led him up to the bride, and while a nice gesture, still clearly demonstrates who the real alpha is and who has the real authority and rights. The beta stepdad pathetically stands in tears of joy that real father has approved of him and his sacrifices and gave him his blessing to participate. Utterly nauseating. Even worse is the comments section of the article. To a person, every one chimes in with praise and adoration of the real dad, just congratulating him as some hero, while few do make some mention of the apparent attention-whore nature of the act. I did see one or two comments though of “ha what a cuck” and it made me laugh, it’s good to recognize a Red Pill brother. This situation has Red Pill prime example all over it, I’m surprised no one around the manosphere caught this and made an article of it already.

    Anyone new reading this, fantastic lesson for you. After years and years and god knows how much time and $, you are still subservient to the guy who was fucking that pussy before you were. What a life. Someone somewhere should slap this beta chap and make him realize how pathetically weak he just looked in the national press. Sadly I am sure that will not happen, but honestly I feel for the guy. Someone please take me back to the 1950’s, where shit like this would be unthinkable.

    Thanks Rollo for opening my eyes, this world is a better place because of this site and your work.

    1. @Seaman, I’ve been holding that story for the last post in this series. It is a prime example of the culmination of women’s sexual strategy.

      Not just social praise, but a reverence for the two men who embody both sides of the Hypergamous equation. It would be easy to poke fun and call it what it is, AF/BB, but the social narrative illustrates so much more.

      The deeper dots that none of the commenters dare connect is that these men’s examples illustrate the degree to which feminine-centric social dominance controls social consciousness.

      This is Open Hypergamy in it’s most vulgar expression – two men, Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks, being praised for their oblivious participation in one woman’s optimized Hypergamous schema. These men are called ‘courageous’ for doing so, but they simply don’t see their complicity in the ugly underbelly of the plan they’ve been pawns in.

      This is a public, viral confirmation of Hypergamy being the predominant social order of out times.

  36. Better to have a solid frame and maintain it even after you marry that try to develop one after the ring’s gone on. She’ll fight tooth and nail if she’s been in the dominant position for any length of time. Handle it wrong and you’ll quickly find out how little power you have, be prepared to walk away.

    The problem is maintaining a strong frame, it’s like being a rock on the beach, you’re constantly being ground down by waves, wind, sand and lesser rocks in the surf. Most of us who have married, myself included, have been ground down by a society that batters us from all angles. By the time my X left I didn’t even know who I was anymore, I was 56, I looked at old photo albums, saw pictures of myself and thought, “What the hell happened to me?”…

    Took me over two years to get back to being that guy, I didn’t date, I hit the gym like a new religion, concentrated only on improving my business and what made me happy…. my frame is now stainless steel with teflon, as far as women go I say what ever the hell I think and don’t care what their reaction is.. it drives them nuts.

  37. @Andy

    Hmm, yeah maybe. But like have you had sex before? Turning a woman into a starry eyed satiated puddle and having them look up at you like a God is the best thing in the world.

    Sure, but if the “promise” of sex or such memorable interaction with women were the reason I made myself into an science geek/engineer, I wouldn’t be doing this stuff in my down time with no plates available. There would be no Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Mark Zuckerberg if that were the general case. They’re not a “reward” they’re a *hint-hint-wink-wink-coughcough-expected-coughcough* “award” for making yourself a man.

  38. @SJF I sincerely appreciate you trying to help but “Just do it” is only marginally more helpful than the Red Pill reviled “Just be yourself” in this context. It seems like it is good advice – for anyone who doesn’t need it!

    I personally can’t see how that kind of advice helps anyone who would need advice. It is particularly jarring for someone that is seriously lacking in experience, married to the first and only LTR.

    I think a good thing about Athol’s early stuff is that he doesn’t “get it” as naturally as some of you do, so some of his advice is easier to comprehend.
    Rollo also says he had a phase where he was extremely beta (although as I understand it was still after having a lot of experience). His beta phase is possibly also why he is so good at explaining some of this stuff, despite being so naturally Alpha. It helps also that he appears to sincerely care about Blue Pill men, which seems to be rare in the Red Pill community.

    The consistent advice everyone has is to improve your physical shape, so I am increasing my efforts there.

    In the end I need to help myself as it will need to be my Frame (not yours, Athol Kay’s or Rollo’s Frame).

  39. The military has morale and leave for a reason. If people work all the time with no relief, fatigue will kill more people then enemy fire.

    So it seems to go for men. We can be “The Rock” , but that solidarity comes at a price. Not only is society trying to break down a man like that, but so is his woman. We know Hypergamy is never satisfied. If so much as one shit test is failed at any point in the relationship , she’ll be shopping for a better deal whether it exists or not. It equates to constant stress for a man, which is why even now I won’t consider an LTR. The social and legal reasons are fairly good ones , but at the end of the day I just cant be on 24/7 high alert all the time. You cant rest, because if you even accidentally fail a shit test- Game Over. Shes texting Chad and youre history. Women ‘love’ opportunistically ,and combine that with a society which enables every whim they feel it makes for a very uphill climb to maintain frame long term.Just remember that even an “average” girl is exposed to tons of high value men every day,in addition to all the guys she knows and knew from HS and college and that one trip to Cancun she never told anyone about . In big cities? Ell oh Ell. The margin for error is zero. If a woman’s decently attractive and living in a big city, its no joke that she can replace guys easier then ordering a pizza.

    Keeping the upper hand in a modern marriage for years on end? It strikes me as trying to climb Everest while being handcuffed.

  40. @The Ronin

    My father recently passed away. He was blue pill to the end. My mother was trying to figure out how to get rid of all his shit before he had even passed. A week after the funeral you wouldn’t know an old man had recently left the building. Before he died, he was looking at old pictures with a lot of regret. One of them is in his early 20’s. You can see the optimism and joy in his eyes. By the end he was a broken man who also couldn’t recognize himself. At the end of his life absolutely none of his blue-pill endeavors meant anything to anyone.

    Thank God you got out at 56.

    Thanks to Rollo for unplugging me at 45. There is still time in this life to find a little joy.

  41. Slaviswife: “This explains something I’d had a hard time understanding. I was trying to explain to some BP and feminist females in long term relationships (with and without children) that when the kids come along, despite any bonding, I want to put Jon first.”

    I’m sure you believe this right now. Check back in after you actually have children and we’ll see.

  42. It is vital to the health of any LTR that a man establish his frame as the basis of their living together before any formal commitment is recognized.

    Yeah, well, I did the very opposite of that when I got married, unfortunately, so I have been taking steps to wrest it back. Occasionally I would get frustrated enough to push back, but overall by far I ceded Frame. Hell, I didn’t have a Frame to friggin’ cede.

    So, what have I been doing?

    Well, sometimes I have been overt in my complaints, and that has not gone well, although I think I needed the confrontation clarify things. For example, I pointed out to her that her wanting “to talk about her day” was roughly equivalent to me wanting sex, and you know what, I am often not “in the mood” to hear her talk.

    When I further explained some my complaints, she get mad and teary, asking me, “What do you want to do? Should we just get a divorce?”

    Although the thought had crossed my mind, I told her, “I didn’t suggest that. It is interesting that rather address my concerns, you jump to that option.”

    Like I said, it was clarifying.

    On the covert side I have stopped listening to my wife more and more. I just pretended I might have heard what she said and just do what I want. If I feel like dealing with what she’s talking about, I do it. If not, no.

    I don’t answer her calls and her texts right away or sometimes at all, even if I have the time. Used to do so a lot more, and she used to bitch when I didn’t. Now I don’t give a fuck. Not in a spiteful way. I just ask myself if I really feel like doing it, and go with that feeling. It’s usually no.

    I have told her no much more, particularly when she starts riding my ass on something which I have made clear I don’t want to debate anymore.

    I used to question almost every significant purchase I made, referring to it as “submitting purchases to committee”, a phrase other men would immediately get and laugh at. Now my answer is “I wanted it.” Period.

    I’ve recommitted myself to losing weight and getting in shape. I had done so 2 years ago and felt pretty good, but did not get what I felt was a sufficient spike in my wife’s interest. Rather than just proceeding, I fell back and gained back the weight. Part of it was that I afraid if I did really work on myself, I would get opportunities, and I did not want to be tempted. Now, I am looking forward to them. I am back to working out and losing weight. Now I need to get out more.

    It’s a weaker frame perhaps, but I am working on it. I think my core principle is that as a healthy male, I am entitled to a decent sex life, and I intend to get it. Period.

  43. @Is This Thing On?

    “My mother was trying to figure out how to get rid of all his shit before he had even passed. A week after the funeral you wouldn’t know an old man had recently left the building. ”


  44. Dutchman -“are tattoos and piercings on married women an expression of contempt for beta husbands?”

    I payed for my wife’s first tattoo not too long after we married. Her ex hated them, but I have several and she expressed interest. She picked it out online, and I arranged everything including introducing her to my artist. When it was almost done I made a comment about how she’s now forever marked as mine (since I paid) and both women (tattoo artist is female) looked at each other and my wife giggled. However, every time she shows someone she adds that “it marks me as his” and grins at me.

    Lots of people look down on tattoos. I started getting inked when I was gigging in clubs, and once every few years I get the itch for something new. At this point they tend to coincide with life events. Last one I got is a phoenix on my left calf. It represents my transition from my old life to this one post RP.

    My point being: tattoos mean different things to different people. I’m sure they can be a sign of contempt, but they are also just as likely to be attention seeking, ornamental, or personal.

  45. Can what hypergamy seeks be summed up in the word “Leadership” ? Or, is it more than that?

    Leadership definitely is a huge component of it. Couple that with lack of fear and the two, will cover more of it. I still think something is missing though.

    I think being a leader of men and being a leader of woman are going to be different. I’ve read about men being excellent leaders of other men who then buckle with women. Which is why I reference fear. I think hypergamy seeks a man who doesn’t give a flying flip over her irrational emotions.

  46. @IAS, I apologize if I sounded trite. What I mean is there is good actionable red pill and game advice out there and if you believe it and employ it (what I call following a script) it is valuable on the path to giving you Real Power.

    Sorry. I am and idealist. I am sorely judgemental. I have skill-sets. But you and any other guy have a lot of potential. I followed the script. Athol Kay’s “Mindful Attraction Plan” (skip his other stuff), Aaron Clarey, Jack Donovan, Nassim Taleb, Ian Ironwood. They all have good advice and a loose script.

    The good thing about Rollo and the Rational Male is that he is descriptive and not prescriptive. The bad thing about Rollo and TRM is that he is descriptive and not prescriptive (just kidding, I like writing my own script).

    It is out there IAS, it takes time to digest and skill to employ. The best time to learn and employ it is 20 years ago. The next best time is now. Be patient. But get to work.

    Once again I apologize for my positivity and idealism. That’s just part of my Stoic nature.

  47. IAS – I’ll second what SJF wrote above. Athols early work opened my eyes and gave me a place to start, but TRM and a few other blogs are where the real meat and potatoes are. Running a MAP is key, but if you don’t understand WHY it works you’ll never master any of it. Game isn’t a paper pushing job. You can’t just follow a script. You have to write the script yourself, and you can’t do that unless you understand what makes a great story.

  48. Seaman,

    I did see that article and was nauseated by it too. It was excerpted on an aggregator site I read, and not one single comment indicated the least bit of RP awareness. All a bunch off weepy manginas cooing over the “generosity” of the father.

  49. On losing frame one in a relationship. I’ve seen so many men voluntarily drop frame and adopt the woman’s because “it’s time to grow up” or similar.

    Insane that “growing up” means deferring to someone else instead of stepping into increased responsibility. They think that acting as “another child” is the ultimate “growing up”. So twisted.

  50. “There would be no Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Mark Zuckerberg if that were the general case. ”


    Good point. I’ve never changed the world like that. So maybe that’s the best feeling in the world. Regardless, let’s just celebrate the fact that women are adorable shiny things that exist solely for our enjoyment!

  51. @ITTO

    It occurred to me while reading this how tightly bound frame is to not having oneitis. Any man with oneitis will simply not be able to maintain frame. It is simply impossible.

    This is why the reasonable reaction a man should have is to spin plates to develop an abundance mentality. With an abundance mentality, oneitis no longer has a chance to take hold.

    The only problem I’m having with it personally is that all I can manage to spin are shitty plates, as there aren’t many good options around here so far and I’ll be damned if I’m settling for 4s and 5s ever again. So for right now, it’s more self improvement and work towards developing more money making ideas.

    I suppose it’s a form of abundance mentality that I’ve come to realize below average women aren’t worth my time. They’re the vast majority of this country and they all think they’re entitled to a guy like me.

  52. SD – “You cant rest, because if you even accidentally fail a shit test- Game Over. ”

    I struggle with that reality. What I have come to understand is that to the rock 24/7 you must be like a rock. That is cold, hard, rough, and unfeeling. What that means is you can’t ever allow yourself to develope oneitis, or be invested in a relationship to the point you can’t simply and walk away. And that the core attribute of frame, others exist in your frame, and they remain not only by their choice, but by your permission. You permit others to exist in your frame.

    Of course that’s difficult for the unplugged to internalize. It’s difficult we were taught about the supreme importance of love. But when you understand the opportunism of a woman’s love it becomes lesser, and unimportant in the greater scheme of our lives. When we make the switch from understanding love as a feeling that has value (it doesn’t), to instead placing great value on actions we are freed from the bullshit of ephemeral emotions and can focus on those things that are tangible and truly matter.

    Being in the defensive 24/7 watch everything out of fear position is a sign of weak frame. It’s a frame that never asks the right questions, and is subservient to the feminine frame.

  53. Rollo,

    My thoughts exactly. What got me so much about this article is the gusto with which everyone verbally fellates the real dad and the stepdad for being such great guys and “real men”. Barf. You literally have grown men commenting saying that they cried or are tearing up from reading this article, which is the equivalent to me of a guy telling me he cried watching a Sex and the City episode. Man card revoked.

    What’s funny is how if you aren’t on guard you just mindlessly read this sewage and it starts to seem “normal”, which I’m sure is what the FI wants. I mean hey, if a guy is being praised in national news articles it must be a good thing right? It’s easy for those unplugged to fall into that mindset, and then boom, before they know it they’re the cuck of the week.

    @long gone,

    The worst part is how no man seems to be instinctively repulsed by any of it. Even on the part of the alpha real dad, shit if I had a daughter no other man is fucking walking her down the aisle, no way in hell. I’m not sharing my daughter with some other swingin’ dick “dad”, she has one father, and that’s me. My armchair psychology degree tells me that the real dad really did it just to draw attention to himself and make him seem like dad of the year or some such, but who really knows. I don’t even need to comment further on the pathetic simp-dom of the beta stepdad, getting AMOGed on national news is enough.

  54. SJF and Ted:

    It is also clear that this is just easier for some people than others, by nature or nurture (the physical shape part in particular has a strong genetic component, and things like abundance mentality are easier to internalise for those with more experience). I can’t really complain myself as I think I have things way better than many I read about since joining the community.

    It is daunting to have to maintain eternal vigilance in all aspects of my life, some of which aren’t even under my control.
    I’m not necessarily wishing it was easier (which won’t make anything good happen), I just have to keep trying to be better.

    My solace is that I always maintained that happiness is more internal than external and that I don’t need anyone specific to be happy – I thought about that kind of stuff prior to knowing about the Red Pill, not because I thought my wife could leave me for another guy, but because life is fragile and anyone you care about can die in an accident or from some health issue without you being able to do anything about it.

  55. Neither of those two dudes disgusts me as much as the paradigm itself. They are just two blue-pill dudes acting as rationally as they can while still plugged in. I still can’t quite figure out how we got here. I guess it’s just been a long progressive slide into oblivion. I think that is the true definition of progressive.

  56. “When we make the switch from understanding love as a feeling that has value (it doesn’t)”

    I don’t agree with that completely. I think it’s possible to love from a place of abundance. It just isn’t an obsessive focused jealous love(which is probably what you mean). More like a spread out general love of women and the things that make each of them unique.

    Isn’t it amusing that they don’t want to have all of one man’s love focused on them? It all fits into the bigger picture.

  57. You’re right, they are just following their blue pill programming, and it’s so ingrained that they can’t even process their own descent into humiliation hell. Even the alpha real dad, who I presume to be somewhat alpha by his body language, status, and the balls to just stop the ceremony on a whim, willingly invites another man into the spotlight to “share” his daughter with him?!? What rational male (see what I did there) would do such a thing?

    That’s like inviting your wife’s ex to come over on your honeymoon and saying “ya know, you’ve been there for her a lot and been so influential in her life. I’m gonna have you in our bed tonight, you hit it from the back, I’ll take the front. High five.”

  58. @ Andy
    You misunderstand. Love as a feeling is of no value. For example the nice guy orbiter who pines away for some chick has feelings indeed but unless accompanied by actions or tangible, visible and valuable behaviors those feelings are of no value. If those feeling don’t express in the right actions and behaviors then what is the point?

    Another example: a cunt who beats hr children and yet genuinely loves them might as well have nothing but hate for them. The feelings are not expressed in a valuable or positive way.

    Love, of the valuable sort, is something you do not something you feel. The BluePill tells us otherwise because it justifies all sorts of mental gymnastics that serve the FI.

  59. @Skid Rowe, anytime I go into the mechanics of modern marriage and monogamy I anticipate the MGTOW default response of “You can’t out-Alpha the state.”

    I get that. I know that any time I go about analyzing parenting or Red Pill applications in marriage it’s like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. A husband is only one phone call away from the Gestapo breaking down his door and dragging him off to what will be debtors prison.

    I agree, and guess what? It’s only getting worse, and not just for married men; 12 year old boys are being persecuted for just looking the wrong way at a girl:


    So yes, I agree, there is no benefit for a man in marriage even for purposes of breeding. Yes, if you step out of line as a husband that hammer can drop at a moments notice.

    That said, it’s clearly apparent that the MGTOW go-to belittlement of men being Alpha is rapidly becoming redundant when boys as young as 12 are subject to the same heavy hand of the state.

    Strong, positively masculine Frame control accounts for exactly this Sword of Damocles in applying it. There are women who hold their men in such high esteem that the thought of calling the cops on him never enters her mind. Dread can be such a motivating factor that women will repeatedly return to an unfaithful cad or an abusive lover.

    I am in no way endorsing that kind of abuse, but it is the most extreme example of the power of Frame. A positive, dominant Frame control can be applied in much the same way, it men who lack the insight, patience or disposition for it who either turn away from it or they abdicate.

    So yes, if the risks outweigh the advantages, don’t enter into a commitment that is detrimental to you. If you don’t have a ironclad control of Frame with a woman while you’re single NEVER entertain the idea of an LTR or marriage. If that woman chomps at the bit of entering your reality, NEXT.

    For all of the MGTOW advisements of voting with your personal investment in women I would think this is obvious; if that woman is not 100% compliant with your directing Frame, NEXT.

    In the meantime, you do men no favors in their personal development and aspirations for a better life, a more productive life, a life founded in a Frame he can create by promoting an “aww fuck it” mentality. You will never change men’s minds on a rudimentary level by promoting defeatism over their condition.

  60. “Love, of the valuable sort, is something you do not something you feel.”

    I don’t get it. Like what would be an example of something you do?

  61. @benfromtexas

    I don’t need any proof. I’m putting that story out there so others understand. Rollo has covered this stuff in spades. His end of life post preceded my fathers death by a couple of months. I saw everything he wrote about come to pass and more.

    Unless you die a sudden and tragic death that comes out of nowhere, you will likely physically fall apart before your spouse. Hypergamy will kick in. You will die alone. Get used to the idea and find a way to go out like a soldier.

  62. Rollo –

    ” Strong, positively masculine Frame control accounts for exactly this Sword of Damocles in applying it. There are women who hold their men in such high esteem that the thought of calling the cops on him never enters her mind. Dread can be such a motivating factor that women will repeatedly return to an unfaithful cad or an abusive lover.”


    ” Dating “, for lack of a better descriptive, is a time period of examining a prospective females receptiveness to accepting your frame.

    I’m hesitant to go too far in prescribing that men incorporate a Threat component into their frame because that word can be misunderstood and the context distorted. Along with physical fitness, mental fitness, self mastery and a deep understanding of Who You Are and how to maximize your strengths and minimize your detrimental weaknesses, an air of ” threat” is a useful tool in dealing with men and women.

    It’s hard for me to articulate. I didn’t get my cardio in today so my brain is sluggish. Haha.

    Example: A boss in my company is a very physical guy. He routinely punches and slaps underlings. It’s in a joking, jovial manner without ill intent what-so-ever, but it’s roughhousing at a high level.

    He has never punched or slapped me at any time. I’ve never stated that I’m not one for being manhandled by any other man, I don’t purposely give any outward queues that I am aware of, but he doesn’t play those games with me. When he enters the room he will punch people and then shake my hand.

    Without going into detail about growing up in a highly confrontational and volatile area, I will say that I have an intense dislike of being struck by another man with measurable force. Not gonna happen. I always knew that if he hit me I may just get fired because I was gonna unload on him just enough so that he’d never do it again.

    Part of the ” high esteem “, whether politically correct of not, comes from not taking inordinate amounts of shit from ANYONE. I’ve never encountered the threat of the authorities intervening in my life or home, but I’ve seen it done to acquaintances.

    Dread is a part of life. It need not be constant, bullying or assholish, but men need it as much as they need manners and/or courtesy. For every action, an opposite… and all that.

    Slightly O/T – the reaction of law enforcement in domestic issues is troubling. The reaction of our judicial system is even more so. When I say ” don’t take shit ” I am not advocating that my brother men go out in a hail of gunfire courtesy of the men in blue enforcing the State Mandate/FI. If a woman feels emboldened enough to call reinforcements on your ass, that relationship is DONE ( and your frame has disintegrated into dust ). Cut your losses and get out.

    #1 Rule of the day = Self Preservation.

  63. @Andy

    I’d agree with Bp on this, and I’d have to say that what you do out of love is long term. Being faithful, being consistent, rewarding good behaviors and punishing bad within reason.

    I was a child of a woman that claimed to love me soooo much yet psychologically, emotionally, and physically abused me every moment I was anything other than a perfectly behaved little beta. It warped my views of what love should look like: moments of somebody hugging you and saying they loved you followed by months and months of berating, slapping, insulting, and threatening for the most minor of “offenses”.

    She said love, she displayed a selfish desire to dominate a boy that looked like the husband who had abused her. She bent me in to a man who was weak, powerless, and ultimately unsuccessful. I hated myself, I lived in supplication to any woman who would give me those little moments of “love” no matter how horrendous her daily behavior was.

    Love manifested as what you do is not any one action. That’s the version that allows my mother to tell herself she was a good mom for those little moments, despite the fact that most days she was an incontrovertible monster. It’s the lump sum of all those little actions truly driven by actually giving a shit about the other person and their contribution to your life that constitutes love as an action.

  64. @ Andy

    I care very about what I do, or you do as an expression of love. I care greatly about what they do. I would say if the woman in your life is keeping the bullshit to a minimum, obviously trying to maintain her appearance, doing things for you with a good attitude, and not talking smack about you behind your back then you’re doing pretty good. And in that case who cares what feelings motivate that behavior?

    On the other hand if you woman is eternally depressive, combative, talks smack about you to her friends and family, never stops criticizing, and only offers frigid boring duty sex then how she feels about you is irrelevant.

    If given a choice would rather have a well behaved, helpful, giving woman that does so out of fear and a sense of duty or a nagging shrew that makes you miserable because she loves you? In either case the risk of her leaving for a better option is always present. Until she up and leaves shouldn’t you demand your needs and wants be met in all cases? If your needs and wants are met why would you care what motivates her to perform so long as she’s performing?

  65. “It’s the lump sum of all those little actions truly driven by actually giving a shit about the other person and their contribution to your life that constitutes love as an action.”

    Okay, I see what you’re saying. I agree with that too. Still though, do you agree that actually loving women with full knowledge of what they are could improve your game?

  66. @Is This Thing On?

    …I still can’t quite figure out how we got here. I guess it’s just been a long progressive slide into oblivion. I think that is the true definition of progressive.

    When you’re skydiving, if you’ve got your eyes open you can get a good, long, clear look at where you’re headed. But, you’re also going so fast that the only evidence you’re descending is the wind, which might be mistaken for any strong wind really. It isn’t obvious your doom is approaching until you’re about to hit bottom. Hopefully your chute opens.

  67. @ Blaximus

    Ha I didn’t even notice the “Divorce Editor” title. What else would you expect though from a lib-tard trash mag like that.

    @ Jeremy

    The girl being fat just completes the Feminine Imperative cliches. I love the choice of pictures as well. They make sure to use the ones where the real dad is dragging the beta simp up there, tears in his eyes and just drenched in weakness. “Hey cuck, I’ll allow you to be a part of this. Get up here.” It’s like a neg on steroids, or nuclear warhead neg. Real dad for the win, AMOG move of the year. Notice that they also use the pic of the warpig bride kissing the real dad, not the step.

    Cucks gonna cuck

  68. @ben

    After my wife told me she was pregnant with someone else’s child, I made a vow to raise the unborn child as my own. In the beginning, she was on board. Later, the harder I tried, the quicker she’d run back to the other man. Then one day, the best couples therapist money could buy asked her, ‘Do you want to make it work?’ Her answer was no. That was the moment I realised I’d done everything I could to save the marriage.

    Poor guy didn’t realize he’d already lost, long before she even got pregnant by another man. Not only that, but he honestly believes that “he did everything he could” to save the marriage when he probably abdicated frame and lost it all a decade before…. And he says the moment some therapist coaxed one whisper of truth from the woman he married was the moment? …. My gut instinct is to just laugh long and hard at the guy… but that ignores his plugged-in reality and presumes knowledge he doesn’t have.

  69. @Rollo. This is Open Hypergamy in it’s most vulgar expression – two men, Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks, being praised for their oblivious participation in one woman’s optimized Hypergamous schema. These men are called ‘courageous’ for doing so, but they simply don’t see their complicity in the ugly underbelly of the plan they’ve been pawns in.

    Curious what you guys would think of the story if it were Moms instead of the Dads. I know the Dad gives the bride away, but what if was a bridal dance with the son scenario? Heroin addict Mom abandons the family, Dad remarries, and Stepmom gets Methadone Mom to dance with the son.

  70. Stingray
    I think being a leader of men and being a leader of woman are going to be different. I’ve read about men being excellent leaders of other men who then buckle with women.

    Have seen this, I”m thinking of a now retired Army officer, combat vet who is very motivating by example even to men no where near his chain of command. Also quite a blue beta around his wife. It is likely a case of his romantic, deep South upbringing where Ladies were Ladies. Unfortunately his wife isn’t from the South…

    Which is why I reference fear. I think hypergamy seeks a man who doesn’t give a flying flip over her irrational emotions.

    Yes. This trait may inborn in some men, but it can also be learned. The amygdala can be retrained, with effort. Look, men learn to fly airplanes upside down when every instinct in the brain is screaming “NO!”, it is certain that we can learn to look at a shrieking harpy, or a crying manipulatrix, and snort in derision.

    We can, and we do, learn to maintain frame…

  71. @SS

    Yeah, I’m not sure otherwise what to say to the two dads at the wedding. The emotional moment they’re pulling is total capitulation/victory for the women. Doesn’t matter how alpha the original dad was, he’s essentially validating the choice of his ex-wife with that move, and her choice was to blow up her family.

    Basically he’s totally capitulating to the FI and saying, “Here you go ladies, divorce all you want, we’ll give you your emotional backrub just the same.” ugh.. just all around gross.

  72. I had that backwards. The Heroin addict mom would get the mom that raised the kid to dance because the birth mom would be tops.

    Wonder who paid for the wedding.

  73. badpainter
    Another example: a cunt who beats hr children and yet genuinely loves them might as well have nothing but hate for them. The feelings are not expressed in a valuable or positive way.

    The woman who emotionally and verbally abuses her family one day, then tries to make up for it by being nicey nicey for a few days later, only start ramping back up to another abusive tirade likewise.

    Love, of the valuable sort, is something you do not something you feel. The BluePill tells us otherwise because it justifies all sorts of mental gymnastics that serve the FI

    And given a choice between “love” and “respect”, men will almost always choose respect. A wise man will never let any woman lose sight of that.

  74. @Atticus

    Wonder who paid for the wedding.

    Uh, that’d be the new groom of course, though payments are deferred until hypergamy looks to trade-in.

  75. @ Atticus

    If the situation were the same with two moms it wouldn’t carry the same weight. Throughout history women have cooperated to raise children, it’s in their nature to do so. If you spend enough time around mothers they all share this Borg-like collective mindset to ooh and ahh over each other’s babies and care for each other’s children. How many times have you seen men say “Hey dude what a cute kid, can I hold him? Oh he’s wet here lemme change him for you, he’s so adorable..” Yeah doesn’t happen.

    On the norm, men usually only give a cursory acknowledgment of other men’s kids, as in they might ask how your son is but that’s about it unless you are close friends. Women can be complete strangers but upon meeting wanna drool over each other’s babies. I saw a quote somewhere that sums it up: “Women care about children, men care about THEIR children”.

    If your scenario happened I doubt it would even make news. That shit happens a lot apparently, judging from the comments on the Huffpo piece alone. It was only newsworthy to show how much of a cuck the stepdad is, and how nice it was for the real dad to AMOG him publicly, because this is not a natural instinct of men and is emasculating on every level. Feminine Imperative brainwash at its finest.

  76. Love my Mom. But that is so fucking true. If I heard it once, I heard I 100 times from my stbx, “to your Mom, no woman is good enough for her sons.l

  77. @Seaman. You are talking about babies. Mom abandoning kids and showing up at he wedding? Hahahah. Not happening. (I’m not saying the Alpaha dad in the original story left his kids. They never give the back story).

    My point was that the Dads are celebrated, one of the Moms In My scenario would have been vilified.

  78. @SS

    If the situation were the same with two moms it wouldn’t carry the same weight. Throughout history women have cooperated to raise children, it’s in their nature to do so.

    It is easy to cooperate when you possess the same abilities as those you are cooperating with. Why should one woman be jealous of the fruit of another woman’s womb when she has the same power? It is absurdly easy for women (who aren’t so stupid was to wait until age 40) to get themselves a kid. There’s probably no element of society that has such a natural abundance mentality as pregnancy.

    Men have no womb control, and in fact are never 100% sure the child that comes out is his own. Why should men cooperate over assets they have no control over? Why should men presume benign intention from other men when in fact the release of sperm into the womb is the competition of life itself?

    The FI shames men for competing over the fruit of a womb, it does this out of it’s own solipsism. Women presume their viewpoint, one of total control of the womb, is shared by men. This is patently ridiculous. Male competition and insistence on protecting paternity is a direct result of the 100% control granted to women of the gestation process, and nothing short of a biological mutation into an asexual species will change that.

    Two moms at a wedding is ridiculous on it’s face, as most of the process which attaches a woman to a child is the gestation, birth and early bonding. What happens to a child after that doesn’t matter, the biological mother will still be attached, and other women will never be so attached.

    Two fathers at a wedding and cooperating is feminist-endgame type shit.

  79. @Atticus

    I see your point. It’s hard to compare the scenarios apples to apples cuz we don’t really know the backstory, plus it’s men and women so it would really be more like comparing apples and bowling balls.

    What the point was is that the Dads are celebrated because they are fulfilling the Female Imperative perfectly, and it’s so ingrained into the social consciousness that they are called “real men” for doing so. There’s no Male Imperative that the Moms would be meeting. That would be an act that benefits them only and the son for their own emotional jollies or what have you, but no benefit to any man besides him being glad the bitches aren’t bothering him.

  80. Great post Rollo.

    Here is another way of keeping frame according to Cesar Milan. (I love #3).

    1, You need to be even more calm-assertive.

    Dogs will not follow unstable energy. This is even truer of alpha dogs, who will try to correct what they see as unbalanced behavior. This is why, when dealing with a dominant dog, you have to be even calmer and more assertive than normally.

    If you’re anxious or nervous, your dog will sense this, and a dominant dog will see it as their cue to take charge. On the other hand, if you are calm and assertive, a dominant dog will read this as everything is all right, and they won’t feel the need to protect and direct their pack, i.e. you.
    2, Set rules, boundaries, and limitations.

    Again, rules, boundaries, and limitations are even more important for dominant dogs because it focuses their dominance and gives them a way to express their confidence without using it on you.

    At a minimum, there should be rules for where they can go in the house without your permission, they should always have to wait before going in or out the door, and they don’t get their food until they are calm and submissive.

    With dominant dogs, you can take it a step further with things like agility training, which allows them to use up excess energy while leading themselves through the obstacle course.
    3, Don’t force affection.

    Dominant dogs are naturally more aloof and solitary. Remember, in the pack, the leaders do not approach the followers. The followers come to the leaders. The trap that it’s easy for humans to fall into is to pursue their dog to give affection when the dog isn’t “cuddly” enough, which puts the dog in the leadership position.

    If your dog is dominant, the best approach is to ignore her. When she wants attention, she will come to you, and this reinforces your role as the Pack Leader.
    4,Use meal time to your advantage.

    In the pack, the leaders eat first, and the same should be true when the leaders are humans. For dominant dogs especially, you need to create a boundary around the family table, with the dog not allowed to approach while the people are eating.

    When it comes to feeding time, your dog must be calm and submissive before you even begin the process, and wait in that calm submissive state until you have put the bowl down, walked away from it and given the “okay” for your dog to eat.
    5,Give your dog a job.

    Dominant dogs in particular need to fulfill a role in the pack, which is why it’s important for you to give your dog a job. This can be as simple as having them wear a backpack on the walk, or you can train your dog in agility, search and rescue, obedience, herding, Treibball, and more.

  81. @Jeremy. “Two moms at a wedding is ridiculous on it’s face…”

    Only because one them wouldn’t allow it. Two dads would be expected.

    You both are correct that it’s a gushy article because it supports the FI.

  82. @Rollo – Another amazing post! This one is hitting home in a major way. Thank you for what you do.

    I want to thank all of the commenters here for such an amazing space filled with knowledge from intelligent and articulate men. I’ve learned so much already. Can’t thank you all enough.


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