Managing Expectations

expectations

One question I was asked during the Christian McQueen interview was what my perspective on a “healthy” kind of love would look like. Anyone familiar with my writing understands that, to the best of my objectivity, I try to be as descriptive as I can when it comes to the dynamics I analyze. The Rational Male will always be an endeavor in descriptiveness, not prescribing what I think anyone ought to be doing. I’ve run down my reasons for this in the past, but the solutions to your problems begin with your understanding the nature of those problems. I’ll give you tools, observations and suggestions, but my hope is you’ll use them in your life according to your need.

As I said in the interview, my interest isn’t in making Rollo Tomassi clones, and anyone telling you they have a customized plan to lead you to the relationship of your dreams is selling you something (likely a $1200/month ‘counseling’ retainer). That said, I’m going to break protocol here for a moment and see if I can provide you with some general observation about what I believe are the foundations of a heathy love relationship.

From a Red Pill perspective I’d say the first and most important thing for a man to grasp is coming to terms with realistic expectations with women based in Red Pill awareness.

In a Blue Pill paradigm men are conditioned to believe that Blue Pill goals are both attainable and worthwhile in the effort needed to achieve them. Deferring to feminine primacy, deffering to feminine correctness and essentially enabling and facilitating the ends of women’s sexual strategy are all the hallmarks of that conditioned thinking.

In Mental Point of Origin I explain how a man’s origin of thought is conditioned to default to a feminine purpose; he puts his first thought to the benefit of the feminine rather than himself and it takes either a very traumatic personal episode or a Red Pill awakening for a man to realize how thorough his conditioning has been.

I’m reviewing this Blue Pill mindset because the expectations a man has of a woman while he’s trapped in that mindset is radically different when he moves into (and accepts) a Red Pill awareness. That may seem a bit remedial for Red Pill men now, but it’s important to be reminded of how much your expectations of women have shifted since you came into that new awareness.

There was a time when you were Blue Pill and not taking a woman seriously at her word – as opposed to understanding the primary importance of her actions – was probably offensive to you. Any White Knight you encounter in life is still basing his expectations of women in that same egalitarian equalist premise that women are rational agents with an equal interest in men’s goals and purpose. The mistake being that they put faith in the idea that men and women have intellectually risen above the influences of their evolved psychology and can be relied upon to behave reasonably and in each other’s best interests.

Ironically a Beta /White Knight’s methodology for qualifying for women’s intimate attentions are still rooted in performing to the standards of what he believes is a pre-understood social contract between men and women. However, his expectations of women and how they’ll reciprocate his feminine-identifying efforts is where he’s gravely in error.

It’s my belief that Red Pill men need to come to realistic expectations of women based on their Red Pill awareness in order to come to a loving relationship with women. Accepting that reality also means accepting the differing concepts men and women have with regard to love. That’s a very tall order for men still coming to terms with the fact that their Blue Pill conditioning made them hopeful they could sustain a love based on Blue Pill expectations of women. Their idealistic concept of love has an end-goal of that concept being mutually reciprocated by a woman; this is the Blue Pill hope for love.

Love in the Age of Equalism

Egalitarian equalism between the sexes is nominally based on an acceptance of agreed terms, but love, like desire, is not the result of a process of negotiation.

What’s more ironic is that the more pronounced the efforts in gender parity are in society the more pronounced the men and women in that society cling to traditional sex differences:

To the contrary, most cross-cultural studies find nations with the highest sociopolitical gender equality (e.g., Scandinavian nations) exhibit the largest psychological sex differences in the world. You read that correctly. Higher gender egalitarian nations tend to have larger sex differences in mate preferences for Good Looks, in Big Five personality traits and the Dark Triad traits of Machiavellianism, Narcissism, and psychopathy; in romantic attachment and love styles; in sociopolitical attitudes and personal values; in clinical depression rates and crying behavior; in tested cognitive and mental abilities; and in physical attributes such as height and blood pressure[97]. If sociopolitical gender egalitarianism is supposed to reduce sex differences to the point where they “disappear,” it’s doing a terrible job. In fact, it’s most often doing the exact opposite. Without the constraints of patriarchal sex role socialization, it appears men and women are freer to follow their evolved desires in ways that lead to even greater psychological difference

It’s important to recognize truths like this because our acculturation in an equalist doctrine of gender parity is often never considered with regard to how the sexes interpret a loving relationship. How a society perceives love on a meta level is greatly influenced by the degree to which that society considers and acknowledges sex differences. I’ve stated in the past that androgyny is not a goal-state for any species – it leads to stagnation and an inability to adapt. Androgyny becomes homogeny; an evolutionary dead end, and the statistics seem to back this up. When a society idealizes a state of homogeny between the sexes that society presumes love is also homogenous.

Play with her, and play with her

I’ve mentioned in the past that revealing Red Pill truths to women you want to become intimate with is ultimately a self-defeating effort. The same can be said for women you may be involved with at the moment and are attempting to convince of your new Red Pill identity. Once you let a woman in on the Game it changes the game. Observing a process will change that process. This is known as the observer-expectancy effect, or the Hawthorne effect which is a “form of reactivity in which subjects modify an aspect of their behavior, in response to their knowing that they are being studied.”

In my perspective this is the main reason couples’ therapy, marriage counseling and Purple Pill couples’ coaching is ineffective. Those negotiations that are supposed to lead to a better relationship and a “healthy” love are founded on Blue Pill goals and Blue Pill expectations of an equalist understanding that men and women are fundamental equals with an equal interest in rational problem solving.

Why am I inserting this here? Because your Red Pill expectations of women must remain stoically within yourself.

Once your expectations of women are out in the open the process has changed. Women love Men who Just Get It, but explaining how you Get It disqualifies you from being the Man who does. Demonstrate, never explicate.

In a way I pity the women who identify themselves as Red Pill women. Not because I think their efforts are misplaced, but because they become privy to Red Pill truths and now have a different awareness of that observer-expectancy effect. The process is changed with regard to how they deal with men, maybe their husbands, and now they can no longer play the Game without some peripheral awareness that they are playing a game. The machinations of it are revealed so the context becomes one of identifying aspects of those truths and being self-conscious of men’s and their own behaviors being influenced by them.

In coming to terms with Red Pill expectations of women a man must embrace some ugly realities. Those realities that used to be denied or sugar coated with the pretty lies of the Blue Pill can rub you raw. Among others, Hypergamy, women’s sexual and love opportunism and the potential of damning a man to a life of indentured servitude are tough expectations to have to weigh against the idealistic want of a healthy loving relationship with a woman.

There will be a contingent of men who’ll insist women be held accountable for the worst of these behaviors. While I don’t necessarily disagree with that sentiment, there will always be a want for personal accountability and justice for women’s actions from men, however, this belief is still rooted in the idea that women are coequal and rational actors. That personal accountability desire is based in an equalist mindset. That’s not to say women shouldn’t be held accountable for the results of their impulses, or given license to them – Hypergamy is not itself an excuse for the worst of its consequences. Moreover, it is to say that a Red Pill aware man needs to base his expectations of women on the Red Pill foreknowledge of what her instincts and impulses will lead her to.

Conventional Love Model

I posted the following comment in response to Girl With a Dragonfly Tattoo’s recent plea for women to embrace empathy and / or sympathy:

Sympathy / Empathy flow downward from men to women and then to children. Men who understand and accept this never expect empathy from women to begin with. For that man, either a woman meets his criteria for his investment or he drops her for a better prospect.

Only in a feminized equalist society do men expect in-kind reciprocation from women. As a man, your “needs” are only important to you. Men’s disappointment comes from expecting a balanced return on his emotional investment and relational equity; this is the result of his egalitarian equalist conditioning. It sucks and it’s offensive to men because they’ve believed for most of their lives that there should be an equitable exchange of emotional and personal investments – his woman should have his needs and his best interests in mind in a like fashion that he has for her; this is not and has never been the case.

In fact it’s a recipe for failure, since it puts men into a position of neediness, and thus forces him to negotiate for his woman’s desire.

I’ve made an attempt in today’s post to address this last part. A great deal of men’s frustrations with women finds its root in an equalist expectation of a like-for-like exchange of intimacy. In A New Hope I explained how a man might cast off his former hope for a Blue Pill solution to the problems inherently created by an egalitarian mindset. I think it’s vitally important for men to keep that in mind – the source of those problems offers the false hope of a solution to those problems.

As a man it is important to understand that love will always, necessarily, be an unequal exchange of sacrifice for a woman. You simply don’t share the same concept of love with a woman. There are complementary benefits, but never assume your investment with a woman will be an equitable tradeoff. Men weren’t designed for that, this is why notions of relational equity is a real tough ego-investment for a man to abandon when he comes to Red Pill awareness.

In closing, what I find interesting in all of this was recalling how my Vulnerability post was received. That was an important post because it described the expectation of submissiveness and surrender that the Feminine Imperative and egalitarian equalism inculcate in men. Even the definition of the word was recreated to fit the doctrine – weakness is strength – and more than a few critics still clinging to that Blue Pill boilerplate wanted to re-redefine it in some way to be palatable to both the manosphere and that old Blue Pill hope. That’s the essence of the Purple Pill.

What they fail to realize is the inherent vulnerability men face in loving a woman at all. All risk, with no realistic expectation of reciprocation of his emotional investment and even greater risk of rejection for expressing that expectation – now that’s vulnerability. Egalitarian equalism always stresses the importance of men and women meeting each other’s needs to achieve a balanced loving relationship. This is a fundamentally flawed premise in the context of feminine social primacy. In a Blue Pill paradigm a man’s needs are always subordinate to a woman’s. That is vulnerability – a man putting faith in the presumption that a woman’s sustained long-term interests will ultimately serve his own.

Men will always be the risk takers in all aspects of life.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

204 comments on “Managing Expectations

  1. The “Her husband doesn’t deserve her…” comment is nothing but hamster speak for a massively failed shit test and catastrophic DLV.

    Until he stumbles upon TRM, in a moment of ‘quiet desperation’, the poor bastard will never know why he has a contemptuous harpy for a wife and has been relegated to a miserable life of only ‘baby making’ sex.

    Been there, done that… never fucking again!

    1. @Thoroughbred
      Your post was an amazing insight on the beauty of the burden of performance for one self. That’s a wonderful way to look at it but
      @Isthisthingon
      Has a good point about farthers as well. My dad wasn’t a dad he was my mothers emotional tampoon. This made it hard to get any sense of balance.
      @Thoroughbred
      One thing that you pointed out that I am learning and really am not good at is focusing on myself first.

  2. @Thoroughbred

    That’s a great overview of the correct perspective a man should have. Of course, we still have to remember that a woman’s “love” is highly conditional. Her motives are similar to a banker’s…she will offer you succor and aid when you need it the least and withdraw it when you need it most.

  3. @Hobbes

    Guys come to Game to get laid, because they are having problems. they get advice- Game/workout/be successful, do what women like etc etc. All cool. But then comes the rationalization that we aren’t doing it because women like it.
    Sounds like bullshit to me.

    You know that’s what you’re doing it for. I know pretty much all of us came here seeking exactly what you’re saying, however the end goal (for me at least and for those who actually succeed) is to change the mental point of origin no matter how long it takes.

    What you’re describing is your own lack of confidence in your ability to effect such a dramatic change in your life as to completely alter who you are. It’s an intimidating task, as what prompted almost all of us to start that journey was “I’m sick of getting no/ugly/psychotic/fat chicks and I want to know what I have to change in myself to fix that.” Turns out you have to not make chicks your focus to get chicks.

    What prompted a lot of us to change was desire for female attention. Somewhere along the way, to succeed at what the old us wanted, the focus of our change has to truly become us instead of women. Just because it was the impetus for your change doesn’t mean it has to remain the focus of your efforts and thoughts.

    Some of it is “Fake it till you make it”, some guys never make the transition at all, a lot of them make a partial transition that at least makes things better for them. (I cop to the first and third so far) But rationalization? Nah. It’s a mindset I personally am trying to achieve because a few guys wiser than me have pointed it out as not only achieving the original goal as a byproduct, but accomplishing a whole bunch of other awesome improvements I’m worthy of to boot.

    Lately my life has become about getting shit done. I was a lazy fuck before. I played video games constantly, obsessed about my ex a lot, worked out, and went to work. As of a couple months back, I went from playing games daily to… I’ve played twice in two months. Once for just a few minutes because I was waiting to meet up with somebody. Once to pop on to an MMO I had a lot of friends on and get contact info since I was quitting. I’m too busy getting shit done for myself. Too busy working out more. Too busy working on solving problems that can lead to making money. Too busy moving to a new, more awesome place to live.

    There’s thoughts of women, sure. But only as another thing to get done. “I want to hit the bars and clubs a bit more to work on my technique.” I haven’t completely eliminated thoughts of searching for an LTR as goal, but they’ve become a lot less frequent. I doubt I’ll ever completely eliminate thoughts of women at all, but then again I don’t think even with yourself as a mental point of origin that should be the goal. It should just become another thing you do for yourself with your own health and happiness as the goal. It should become balanced with the rest of your life rather than the focus of it.

    I can’t call it a rationalization when I’m noticing legitimate, sweeping changes to my own philosophy and results out of life. It’s an actual change I’m making.

  4. @Thoroughbred

    You wrote:
    “Lose your children, assets and the better part of your productive life – stiff shit, don’t let it get to you.” — Yep. Exactly right… Don’t let it get to you. Think of how you’d live passionately in that alternative reality. I read a great post somewhere from a married man (may have been here) who was contemplating what life would be like if he lost his big house, his assets, his wife and his kids. His answer: “I’d buy a truck and a silver AirStream camper and travel the U.S. the remainder of my days. Stop in interesting places… Live a minimalist life. Maybe wash dishes for a few weeks here or there or do some construction as I explored the area, climbed mountains, fished, fucked the local women… And then move on to the next adventure.” Man, that doesn’t sound so awful to me. It sounds like heaven.”

    I understand you are trying to be positive, but this isn’t a solution. For a man to lose his children is devastating. Few men have the wherewithal to adopt a hobo’s life after losing their assets, wife and children. And why should they?
    When men let society enforce horribly inequitable laws and passively accept the consequences, they aren’t being stoic. They are being weak.
    Men need a three-pronged strategy: political activism to reform the law, a personal strategy based on game and location independence.
    Marriage in America is like playing roulette in Vegas. The house always wins. Bet accordingly.

  5. @hobbes
    Culture matters tremendously. The divorce rate in India is less than 4 percent and I bet it is similar in many patriarchal cultures. Roosh and others have talked about how women behave pre and post exposure to western culture. Read Roosh’s tragic account of changes in Poland to understand how corrosive western culture is.
    I’ve made radical changes to my career plans so that I can become marketable in Asia.
    I’m not Neo. I can’t dodge all the bullets the matriarchy is firing at me 🙂

  6. I don’t think marriage today has anything to do with what marriage used to be, in that the state is now involved. Marriage used to be a public commitment to each other that would be enforced by social pressure and religious belief. Now, both of those forces have essentially been removed and replaced with enforcement by the state. Anyone that thinks they need to get married to have a family based on religious reasons should take this into account. I’m pretty sure what ever god you pray to never intended for you to enter into a binding contract with an earthly government to be in good with him. The commitment ceremonies held by the new age hippie types more closely resembles an honest marriage than this state sanctioned abomination. Realize the definition of marriage has been changed over time. You have no moral obligation to play in this rigged game.

  7. For the record I am not Thoroughbred, though I could play him on TV.

    THAT is the attitude you need to internalize to get through the Adventure. Co-sign with Sun’s take on it too.

    As for those fearful of losing the kids, I can’t speak to that myself, but the stragety (to quote the former W.) stays the same, I should think. Fatherlessness sucks donkey balls but in today’s society it’s What’s For Dinner. You can woulda coulda shoulda yourself to a soulless hulk and eat the bullet. Or realize you can’t control everything, know what happened was imposed from Without (like being hit by a bus). So hang back, and if you want, maybe leave a trail of breadcrumbs they can follow later on if they want to track you down. Take such comfort you can that you did what you could.

    That said, I also preach the gospel for Not Obeying just because the Shaming Squad says you must. Why? For whom? What’s the point in kowtowing to bloviators (be they the feminist Eunuch Brigade, Bilderberg Groupers, or Teabagger Churchians) who give not one half shit beyond grinning at your Obedience?

    I really do believe that is our future: The Society of Extraordinary Gentlemen Pirates Who Don’t Do Anything.*

    *Kid-TV reference there

  8. @Dragonfly: “ I… my… I’ve…I… “ right in the middle of a men’s discussion about conditions, tactics and philosophy. You add ZERO to the conversation other than your predictable solipsism. Do us all a favor and follow Glenn’s advice and be silent.

  9. @Sun- You haven’t made the complete transition because it is bullshit. Let me give you an example- if a woman were to tell you she was going to remove all hypergamy from herself would you buy it? Of course she can behave differently, of course she can make different choices etc, but in the end, the limbic/genetic drive is and always will be there.
    Similar with men. Your dna/genetic makeup is designed to make everything a reaction to sexual pressure.. one way or another.
    Being your own frame of reference is a reaction as well to past sexual/emotional experiences and not incompatible with the fact that your drive, your core is all about getting laid/reproducing. And if you don’t believe it, look at PUAs and RP reactions to men who go MGTOW- they accuse them of being pussies, that they are lying to themselves, they are butthurt etc etc. In the next breath they say “hey, I don’t do it for women”. If it’s all about doing whatever you want and not for women, wouldn’t MGTOWs be kings? Would we call them the ultimate alphas who do nothing for anyone except themselves?
    Isn’t it amazing how all those things men aren’t doing for women are exactly the things women want? What a shocking coincidence.
    Why not just admit that it’s a huge motivator, that we realize that it is better, that maybe some of the traits women prefer are beneficial to the man who possesses those traits? Why is everyone so damn defensive about admitting they like pussy, wish to be loved and have a biological desire for a deep connection with a woman? Would that make us too unalpha or something? Or are we all just a bit prideful and just too afraid of falling prey to our BP ways to admit it?
    In Rollos terms.. if I can misappropriate it in a way he’ll probably really disagree with.. I think all this “I do it for me” stuff is a buffer. A way to keep those old weaknesses at bay and under control. A way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance of dealing with womens wants. Women want men who do certain things, but they also are attracted to men who are indifferent/not needy. So we have to rationalize the cognitive dissonance of doing what they like with the act that doing what they like because they like is a turn off to them. But fuck if I’m going to internalize that cognitive mess. I’ll use it as part of my Game, but it will be just that- Game.
    Am I saying you won’t benefit? Not in the least. Am i saying you won’t find good reasons in and of themselves to do these things? Of course you will. Exercise is great for you, do it for a while and you will love it. Making money is great too, of course making it and being successful will make you happier. We were DESIGNED to enjoy these things BECAUSE women preferred to mate with men who had these qualities. Enjoying these things is in our DNA. Feminism came along and alot of us were sold a different idea of what to do and who to be.. so we became beta, we didn’t do these things, and paid the price.
    Here is a thought.. if tomorrow HB9 s and 10s suddenly developed an overwhelming wetness and desire to marry and stay faithful to out of shape broke men.. every gym and place of employment would be empty, and none of these “I do it for me” guys would take one step into a gym. We all know it.
    Ultimately you know its bulshit when guys feel the need to even say it. Who gives a flying fuck why your bench pressing? Really? The chick who finds you more attractive because your in shape doesn’t give a fuck and neither does anyone else. Ultimately the mistake we made when we acted beta wasn’t that we wanted to get laid/women, the mistake was doing the wrong things to get laid/women.

  10. @LSCS- thanks you. I was going to write something about that but felt I was already writing too much. You said it better than I would have in a fraction of the words!

  11. @All – If I was to try and call out all the good stuff on this thread it would take too long, suffice it to say that it’s pretty fucking real.

    @SunWu – You are my new hero. I was on the same bead for several months late last year. I just got super busy with my life, and it was due to cultivating me as my mental point of origin. But lately, well, I’m a bit all over the place and my life is seeing those results too, grrr.

    Without lapsing into self pity (that’s what’s been killing me if I’m to be honest), I’m not able to recapture that frame of mind. It was very calming and also gave me great energy. I’m trying to figure out how to get back to that place but I’m not doing a great job of it. Any insight would be great.

    Instead I just find myself pissed off and pretty cynical. Just for the record, when younger I was often described as an optimist. It seems that I’m just yet another cliche, as idealistic people often end up becoming cynical.

    Here’s the thing I can’t get past it all, and I’d love to hear any and all advice on this guys. I’m not broken up about losing my ex or any particular woman – I wasn’t even really back then. Sure it hurt at first, but as soon as I was sinking myself into new, hot poon, somehow I managed to put it into perspective. I’m not hung up on her

    I’m hung up on not having an intact family of my own. I got married young intentionally. I wanted to have 3-4 kids, young and be done by my early ’50s. My ex claimed she wanted the same. First off she had two miscarriages after the first child – we were trying. The point is that my life made sense to me. I wanted to be a father, a head of a family and yes, a provider and protector to them, and I even liked being a couple in real ways at times. It all seemed just the way life should be, up until my wife went feral on me – which made me unhappy but didn’t change the roles/identity/purpose I had in life, it just made it all harder.

    After we split, I could never make sense of what happened. I also was so hurt by the loss of my daughter that every time I got close to a woman after that, I shut down and moved on – literally it was beyond my control. The feelings would just go – poof, up in smoke in an instant. I could never, ever face the loss of another child/family and the only way to do that is to not get married again and not to have more kids. I remember trying to explain it to some woman I was dating once, I think she was trying to size me up for marriage material, and I don’t know, I just snapped and decided to be real with her, and I told her how it was. “Well, here’s the thing, if we got married and had more children, what’s to stop you from one day just changing your mind, and I lose another family?” She kind of dropped her soup spoon, and this was way pre-redpill, but it was long after I’d split up, I was like 43 at the time and my tolerance for female bullshit was really waning. But she didsn’t say anything as she – like most women – considered that ability to scrape off an unwanted husband, but keeping the kids and some cash to help raise them her privilege. She knew she couldn’t look me in the eyes and say she would never do that, it was quite a revealing moment. So I continued, cuz I really just wanted to burn her down at this point. We were at some hip place in Tribeca, sitting outside on a warm summer evening and I don’t know, it all just looked like such a facade of horseshit to me. I offered, “The only way I’d marry another woman is if we did the following. First, we went off for a week alone and made our marriage vows and commitment to each other a week long event in which we explored together what it really meant. And that we’d go there knowing that either could change there mind. But if we did decided to get married after careful consideration, she would agree to a never leave me, not matter what and I would do the same. That she would agree to let me kill her if she left and that she could kill me if I left.”

    Well, more than the soup spoon dropped now. But I didn’t give a fuck and I cut her off. I told her, “You live this simple single live, like a character on Sex in the fucking City, so self indulgent, so easy. Tell me, have you ever provided for another human being? Two of them? Have you ever had a family and lost it? Do you really have any idea what any of this shit is really like? No, I don’t think so. So don’t tell me that I have no right – I have every right.”

    It was interesting, it was like I brought the divorce forward. You see, this is a feature for women, not a bug (as we say in the software business). She was outraged that I was so focused on divorce and losing another family, but her attitude wasn’t, “No honey, I love you so much I’d never leave you” it was more like, hey, just roll the dice and live with it. And oh yeah, stop whining about it.” As an aside here, I’m curious how many people can hear my lament here and not want to tell me to shut the fuck up? There is nothing less interesting to most people than the sadness of an old man in our society, and boy, am I starting to feel that.

    At 52, with my daughter having been ruined for me by all of this shit, I now face old age alone. I have two sisters and a brother I’m close with, and some very good friends, but nonetheless, I’m alone. 30s-40s, lots of fun, running around skiing and rock climbing and sailboat racing and the south of France, now? All I think about is stuffing enough away so I don’t eat catfood in retirement.

    I’ve also become more of a homebody, and doing it alone is quite isolating. To me, there is no path to that family and yet I can’t seem to get happy being this way, and in fact, as the attraction of women to me fades, as it must, the pleasures of casual sex are going to end. I’m on my last hurrah now, I know.

    It’s one thing to be individualistic when we are young, it’s quite another to be facing old age alone. I’ve talked to a couple of my single male friends about retiring together, but who knows if that could even really work. It’s an unsolvable dilemma for me.

    As I said earlier, there are limits to the joy gained from chasing cash and pussy. I feel like my life used to be bigger, that I was up to something worthy and respectable. Now I’m just an old lech trying to bed as many 20somethings as I can before my chances dry up completely. Who is that? That was not the life I planned for myself. How did I end up here?

    Sorry if this is depressing, I’m just trying to put out there what’s really up for me, as when I read this post, I’m like, yeah huh – but it doesn’t help me. It’s the color of the water I’m drowning in – interesting to know, but in and of itself it makes no difference to where we find ourselves. I get that Rollo is only being descriptive so I’m not blaming him or even asking for an answer from him. I’m just sayin’…

  12. @Hobbes

    You haven’t made the complete transition because it is bullshit.

    Stop talking like the other crabs in the bucket. You’re just rationalizing your own failure by trying to drag me in to it with you. Fuck right off with that; I won’t be part of your wallowing in your own inability to change.

    Isn’t it amazing how all those things men aren’t doing for women are exactly the things women want? What a shocking coincidence.

    If you lacked a desire to get laid completely, would you still do a thing? To all the things I’m doing right now, I would say yes. Being in shape, having the money to have amazing experiences, building cool new shit, learning new things, developing my personal philosophies… I’d do all these things even if I didn’t want to get laid. Are you saying you’d avoid them if you didn’t want to get laid? Then I see your problem.

    I’m doing what I do right now because I genuinely want a better life. Whether I meet a woman worth a shit or not, my life will improve. That’s reason enough to do these things. Just because women like it as well doesn’t mean I’m doing it for their sake. I’m actually doing these things for my sake. The only way I was able to start doing them was when I wanted the improvements for myself, in fact.

    It’s like quitting an addiction. Any shrink will tell you that the addict will not succeed in quitting if their motivation for doing so comes from outside.

    “I’m going to quit smoking for my kids.”
    “I’m going to quit alcohol for my husband.”
    “I’m going to quit heroin for my girlfriend.”

    This is a recipe for failure. If you try to change behaviors simply in response to external stimulus, you will fail every single time. I know because every time I wanted to make the changes I’m making right now because my parents told me to or because I thought a girl would notice me or because my friends shamed me I failed. I never got as far as I have right now.

    Women want men who selfishly do things to improve their own lives because if they can get his attention they can tag along on his awesome life. The guy who makes these changes for women will fail. The only guy who’s going to make and keep them is the one who genuinely changes for himself alone. You’re simply wrong if you think otherwise.

    Here is a thought.. if tomorrow HB9 s and 10s suddenly developed an overwhelming wetness and desire to marry and stay faithful to out of shape broke men.. every gym and place of employment would be empty, and none of these “I do it for me” guys would take one step into a gym. We all know it.

    Dumb argument. First, it would never happen. But second, I would never sacrifice my health for anyone. Anyone. If you would, you’re too dependent on the opinion of others. This is also part of why LTR dread works; if you’re remaining out of shape and docile, she’s got control and knows it. If you’re at the gym each day or constantly being approached by women or always everybody’s favorite she realizes she doesn’t have a solid hold on you. It’s your frame instead of hers.

    Ultimately the mistake we made when we acted beta wasn’t that we wanted to get laid/women, the mistake was doing the wrong things to get laid/women.

    We were doing them because we aren’t capable of manifesting the proper behaviors without internalizing a completely different manner of viewing the world and ourselves. Those behaviors are an offshoot of a completely different world view from the one we initially had. That’s what the community has the Blue Pill/Red Pill metaphor as shorthand language for.

    Seriously, look harder at yourself; everything you’re saying here strikes me as a rationalization to slack off. Think of me as your partner at the gym pissing you off to do more reps. Stop giving yourself excuses to give up on changing your mental point of origin. You’ve opened Pandora’s Box. There’s no going back now.

  13. @Dragonfly – Yikes, it’s gotten rough over here, hasn’t it?

    I have to be honest and responsible. I’m super-fucking pissed about all of this in ways that have nothing to do with you. It’s not too much to say I believe that in very real ways, it’s ruined my life and this is the only place on earth that I can even really talk about it in a righteous way. There is no space where I can express my grief and hurt and anger about how all of this played out in my life. Even more to the point – nobody gives fuck about it. Nobody. In fact, male suffering is laughed at and expressions of it are unwelcome. Not even my sisters who love me a lot. They just get queezy and reflexively uninterested or bitchy about it.

    That said, I have been rougher on you than was called for. I apologize for that and will attempt to do better. I still would like this to be a male space, but that doesn’t mean I get to focus a lifetime of rage on you. Sigh…And I really let it rip here as in the rest of my life talking straight to women always ends up poorly. Really. But again, that’s my shit, not yours. And you are trying, i really get that. Still doesn’t mean I want you here, but if anything good can come going forward, men and women are going to have figure some shit out together. And if it doesn’t start with some understanding, well how will it start? You are trying to make a difference. I get that – I just still want a male space.

    Been meditating. I’m less angry but more sad. Great…

  14. “It’s like quitting an addiction. Any shrink will tell you that the addict will not succeed in quitting if their motivation for doing so comes from outside.”

    Solid analogy…

  15. I’m a little taken aback by the nihilism, skepticism, negativity, cynicism, and pessimism that is expressed by the Red Baron, Divided Line, Badpainter,
    Seven Dials (does one of your dials go to eleven?), Johnycomelately, Tom.

    Reminds me of Delta houses’ dejection.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE

    So it’s hard. Adventure brings on unforeseen possible pitfalls, injuries to mind and body, but is required of men who need to fulfill their true nature of accomplishment. Sure you could sit in the basement and wallow in your beer. But you can also get off your ass and make yourself better and lead a relationship with a woman (and get laid) by example.

    “As a man it is important to understand that love will always, necessarily, be an unequal exchange of sacrifice for a woman. You simply don’t share the same concept of love with a woman. There are complementary benefits, but never assume your investment with a woman will be an equitable tradeoff. Men weren’t designed for that, this is why notions of relational equity is a real tough ego-investment for a man to abandon when he comes to Red Pill awareness.”

    I personally derive complementary benefits from my wife, but I gave up a recent time ago thinking there was an equitable payback in kind (in the same way; with something similar) for my efforts in the last 27 years. So what I have decided to to is make my future efforts more effortless, but just as productive and successful as always. If you would like, I’d be glad to enumerate on complimentary benefits I receive from my wife in another comment. My marriage is fine today, maybe not tomorrow, but pointing out my satisfaction is only productive insofar as red pill awareness and game have made me a person that my wife is less likely to leave with cash and prizes. So I’m grateful for Red Pill awareness (Managing Expectations) and dedicated to game (which in truth has made me a better spouse. Much better).

    Men who are good at being men don’t cry about their taxes when they have to pay them. They move on. They realize that taxes and death are going to be there for them whether they like it or not. Real men don’t worry about their tractor breaking a tie rod before they go out and plant their crops. They don’t think about crashing before they get on their motorcycle. Men good at being men don’t take their 70 cc. pro chainsaw into the woods and cut down 150 year old hickory trees are 100 year old sugar maples to increase sunlight on the forest floor for deer habitat and fear a very real injury that prevents them from going out and doing habitat work.
    They don’t worry their ball is going into the pond and pull out a water ball on the 13th tee. Or listen when their wife pulls to a screeching halt to the men’s tee and yell to you as you tee up your ball on 3 North that ” IT IS A REALLY LONG HOLE AND THERE IS OUT OF BOUNDS CLOSE ON THE RIGHT SO DON’T SLICE IT”. They don’t worry about not harvesting a deer before hitting a treestand in the fall. And they don’t worry about striking out before meeting a new woman or proceeding with their current long term relationship that their interactions with women are not worth it. Managing expectations means you knew all the taxes and risks you have to pay for are potentially there but they are never an absolute risk in you proceeding foreward. They are simply a relative risk that you are prepared to deal with.

    You don’t like how things are going for you or foresee too many obstacles to success in the future, I have one word to address that: ADAPT. Become adjusted to new conditions.

    “I can only echo my Dad’s words now, “It seemed like a good idea at the time.” I still do, and I’m not naive to knowing what could happen, and that women are fully capable of betraying a man after 20 years of marriage. There is no security in marriage.” Rollo Tomassi

    “I have no doubt that the idealization of marriage, enduring companionship, mutual love and respect are very strong desires for men, but as I stated in my love series, men love idealistically, whereas women’s love is rooted in opportunism. Women get very upset at this proposition because they tend to conflate an unrealistic desire for unconditional love with a love based on a man’s performance for her in order to earn and keep it. It’s not that men expect some childish form of unconditional love, it’s that a man must continue to maintain that love through performing and meriting it – this is what I mean by women loving opportunistically.” Rollo

    I got married a long time ago and Rollo’s current essay managing expectations is not depressing. At all.
    I too got married cause it seemed like the right thing to do.

    A tribal man never had security anyway, but the best tribal men still went out and performed.

    @Thoroughbred ,April 16th, 2015 at 7:49 am
    Well said man, I read your comment after I composed the above.

    Same to Fred Flange, Mansplainer: You got it right. Way to say it Fred.
    “It’s all an adventure, adventures are risks, life is a trigger warning. It could be a great day at the beach, or turn into a fall off a mountain, or end up with a gun to the head. Encounter, adapt, overcome. Or die trying.”

  16. Stingray, I’ll email you the exchange – I think you’d approve; I don’t know if I’m going to post it because she was coming to me for help (in a fairly condescending-you’re- too- young -to -know- what -you’re -saying-way, but still, she honestly wanted to know what I thought), and it seems mean to just write her off if there’s a chance she might listen.

    I believe women can change if they really want to… but we’ll see if she accepts my response or not.

  17. because she was coming to me for help

    Well, that’s a bit different then. I thought you received one of those hate emails.

    Still, asking for help with the phrase, “He doesn’t deserve her desire, etc” . . . One wonders how much help she actually wants. I’m not surprised she’s annoyed with your site though. You’re happy.

  18. @Dragonfly

    She didn’t want your help. She wanted to berate you under the guise of asking for help so you’d read it.

    Whether she actually knows she needs your help is unclear.

    @Glenn

    You are my new hero.

    I thought I was always your hero. 😉

    In all seriousness, I largely get where you are. Truly an existential crisis when one realizes “I never imagined myself here.”

    I never imagined at 18 that at 38 I would have spent my life so unlovable as to never have even been married. I never imagined I’d be living in the fattest, most unhealthy nation in the first world trying to have a dating life… ugh. I never imagined I would have achieved so little professionally as to feel like I was finally getting started. I never imagined I’d look back on my entire upbringing and realize it wasn’t normal, I was actually abused. I never realized I would have to come to terms with how much I hate myself, or that it would take 20 years to finally really start turning it around.

    “It wasn’t supposed to be like this,” with an air of dismay is not what any of us imagine ourselves saying when we become adults. I’ll admit I’m still fighting that same sense of self-pity. I still speak to a therapist. I’m still not completely bulletproof yet. However, there have been two things I think have helped me focus lately in spite of the tendency to feel sad for myself:

    1) Never in my life has self pity helped make my life better. Getting shit done is the only way to fix the shit that makes me feel the pity.

    2) The me in the future will be pretty pissed at the me of today if he doesn’t use knowledge of #1 to make for a better life to live in. And really, that guy is the only other person on this planet I listen to when it comes right down to it. He knows more than me, so I’d better listen to him.

    I know you’re further down the road than I am, so I can’t see everything as you do. I probably am incapable of understanding enough of your situation to give any advice better than that. But it’s what’s been working for me, so I think it’s useful.

    Now it’s off to Wing Chun for me. A hero’s gotta know how to fight, after all.

  19. Any long term relationship is this day and age is utterly flawed.

    1.) Inviting a woman into your life, means losing privacy by default as she will gossip and bitch her personal life (which is also now your personal life) to any and every female she comes across. This denies you the opportunity to make and correct mistakes as you roll. IE. your growth is now under the microscope and largely frozen.

    2.) She needs constant attention, far more attention than is reasonable for a man to provide, without massively inhibiting his own activities. Of course in the honeymoon year or two it all goes swimmingly because endless sex sessions are on the table, but if you actually want to get anything done in life, lying about fucking all day like a Bonobo monkey is counter productive.

    3.) You will be under constant scrutiny, no matter how well you train and mold her, her insecurities will ALWAYS come back and bite you with questions, fears, emotional conversations.

    4.) 1 – 3 means you are in a situation where you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Shut her out and don’t give her the attention, time and soothing platitudes she needs and she will go cold on you, find someone else, cause endless drama and trouble or worse. Don’t shut her out and you are beta by default, pandering to her needs not your own.

    5.) The buck stops with you. If she leaves you are at fault, if you leave you are a total bastard.

    6.) You’ll not only be paying a heavy burden of time, effort and emotional capital but you will also need to front the physical cash to support your lifestyle, a lifestyle that most likely she expects to be higher than you need or want. Again we meet the damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario… don’t go on the expensive vacation, lease the new car etc. etc. etc… she’ll cough and splutter… do it and drain your finances and future well being.

    7.) There just ain’t enough time for true love and real life.

  20. ” . . . every gym and place of employment would be empty, and none of these “I do it for me” guys would take one step into a gym.”

    I train alone and take care of my own business.

  21. @ Glenn. “As an aside here, I’m curious how many people can hear my lament here and not want to tell me to shut the fuck up? There is nothing less interesting to most people than the sadness of an old man in our society, and boy, am I starting to feel that.”

    “As I said earlier, there are limits to the joy gained from chasing cash and pussy. I feel like my life used to be bigger, that I was up to something worthy and respectable. Now I’m just an old lech trying to bed as many 20somethings as I can before my chances dry up completely. Who is that? That was not the life I planned for myself. How did I end up here?”

    Glenn. Let me repeat myself to you. I have empathy for you with the understanding that it was them,not you, that got you where you are. But you need a passion, a pursuit. You need to get through the Kubler Ross Stages of loss.

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/25/the-5-stages-of-unplugging/

    And you certainly don’t sound like going it alone is working. You want something good. You just don’t know what it is yet. If no woman is ever going to care about your positive attributes in the way you would have expected them to, you can still get affirmation and positive direction from a male mentor or a like-minded colleague or friend. Get yourself out of your depression and then go back and enjoy a woman’s company.

    I have a friend and mentor of the last three years that had the same interests and became red pill aware 7 years and has skills in game. He has boosted my red pill awareness and game skills enormously. Get assistance and have things be effortless.

    And demonstrate that effortlessness to others by your actions. Don’t whine in real life. Here in comments, it is OK. Schadenfreude always works online.

    “Law 30 Make your Accomplishments Seem Effortless

    Your actions must seem natural and executed with ease. All the toil and practice that go into them, and also all the clever tricks, must be concealed. When you act, act effortlessly, as if you could do much more. Avoid the temptation of revealing how hard you work – it only raises questions. Teach no one your tricks or they will be used against you.”

    Get a mentor. It makes getting to where you want to be more fun and less painful. I’m sure you have some older or same aged sailing buddies mentor you. Having a mentor is not below your dignity. It is a fun way to enjoy a pursuit.

    Besides being the least empathetic person I know, I also spent all my life not wanting to hang with a group of guys. I never met a gang that was up to my standards. I now know how much my going it alone as a man, rather than in a social group of men was a handicap. I have corrected that error of my ways and now have more resources. It has dramatically improved my “success” with women. (I have 8 women employees, they follow my commands implicitly. I thoroughly can engage with attractive wives at the country club. It is fun. I’m monogamous and not a bit disappointed. My wife is attractive. She has admiration and respect for me. She still passes the boner test every single time–as she turns 50 in (lucky #) 13 more days.

    I really hate to be positive in a negative atmosphere, lest it be thought of as bragging. But it’s just that I’ve never really had it bad. Just that I want full disclosure on why I am not sad over the Red Pill realities. I was never wronged as a child. Never broke a bone, never had a headache, never had back pain. Never got divorced. Never had two rotten kids. Never couldn’t get laid. Was never poor. Always used my intellect. Have a good profession. Never lost a house. (I could go on but you get the idea.)

    Oh, I did almost just forget that when I was 30 years old, I came down with Type 1 diabetes. At the time I was a board certified Internist. My time in the Kubler Ross stage of Denial was one half of a day. Then I got over it. Moved on. (Yes I forgot that I was inflicted with an autoimmune endocrine disease twenty four years ago. Actually last week I checked blood tests and my HbAIc, glycohemoglobin was 6.5– pretty good if you know what that is.)
    I don’t think of it at all when I have to check my blood sugar 5 times a day and inject insulin 4-5 times a day. It is just who I am and my burden of performance. If I was sorry for myself and angry at the world I could lay down and just not perform. But who needs that.

    I’m not saying it is easy. I worked hard, was frequently disappointed, I worried, I was frustrated, I feared catastrophy. I was taxed/screwed monetarily in business with sweat equity. Had less that appreciative times in marriage, succumbed to vices. Had my ignorant Blue Valentines experiences, etc. I was never as happy as I wanted to be. But that was OK by me in light of the fact that I was successful in controlling my destiny for the most part. I consoled my self with the fact that at least I was satisfied with my performance. I had a lot of personal resources (including my most valuable asset: intellect) to control my own destiny.

    That’s what you need Glenn is to control your own destiny. As Rollo says, “that’s what is true power”.

  22. A special thanks to Hobbes and Gregg for putting my thoughts into words.

    The position in which some commenters here are in, by virtue of being married or having children prevents them from facing some facets of the truth.

    It’s up to each and every one to do what makes them happy but please don’t lie to us and bullshit us. You are not fooling me, you’re just trying hard to convince yourselves of the lies you need to believe in for you reality not to collapse.

    I can see that some measure of self deception is necessary for you guys to maintain your way of life.

    When you are at your point of origin, if you manage to get there, getting laid is still quite enjoyable but it doesn’t matter to you that much because you can clearly understand through your experience, how impermanent that pleasure is; like pretty much everything in life.

    For Rollo, I have a business deal. You’ll be required to invest a few hundred thousand dollars plus a few years of your life. You won’t get back what you put in. Not even half. You will have to pay annuities for few years after I unilaterally end the partnership.
    Will you still do it? Yes you will. You’re a natural risk taker!!

  23. Wow, Richard and Chester. Two more nihilists added to the list. Haven’t seen this much negativism in a while. How’s that working out for you?

    Are you here to learn? To educate us? Me?Or here to whine? There is more to life than nihilism.

    1. @sjfrellc
      First off thanks for letting me learn from your post.
      To everyone here male or female
      I went back to a place I used to work at and all the males turned an me for trying to charge my phone while seening this film
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2lj3g2lmZzc
      Has anyone here may sound retorical ha to deal with males shaming other males for just asking for something? Not sure what made it so pronoticed but I fell in a trance of people I knew where in a system that hated every part of me. They knew me by name becaus I use to work their but treated me horribly. It’s weird I know myself barely and still have a shit ton of beta in me. The alpha just moved along in simplicity without confrontation but understanding. I cant help but feel more in control of me. Just me. Not to get laid but to love myself for upsetting someone on purpose or an accident. When males gather to shame each other what do you think is something to use to not have it plastered on you? This all seemed triggered by trying to charge the phone the buffer in the “real” world.

  24. Badpainter,

    We all suffer from solipsism when commenting online. It is a ripe medium for that. I’m solipsistic in my thoughts. It is not a weakness. It is my frame and you can take it or leave it. But by the same token, don’t tell me I’m not happy and satisfied with long term marriage, or that I am tired of fucking the same attractive female for > 2.5 decades. Because it is not true.

    I believe you should take your strengths and maximize them. Minimize your weaknesses. Be a better man. I spent every stage of my life from 13 to 53 being realistic but busting my ass in an idealistic way. I’m a super-idealist INTJ type. I only want the best I can do and I hold out till I do it. Early on I didn’t whine in high scholl, college or medical school about how tough learning was. I saw many that did and scoffed at them. I’m very critical of people that are too lazy, short-sighted or self-serving to actually achieve their goals. I’ve had my weaknesses, but now I know to minimize them. Years later, I learned that whining will get a man nowhere.

    I don’t get my rocks off on being critical. It’s is who I am. It is my nature. I’m hardwired that way. I want you and all men to not suffer from a Fem-Centric society that is in decline. I think red-pill awareness (no matter how much it hurts ego investment) and applied game is a path to interacting with women, other men (a group of guys), work environments and social groups in general.

    Believe in Something, anything, that gets you going. Be a better man. Not limited to being a “Good man”. Chose tactics in life (like the 48 Laws of Power) in an amoral fashion, but don’t neglect to have a moral spiritual foundation.

    I had an epiphany after I bought a farm in 2007. After 5 years of working the place for deer hunting habitat, I came to the realization that the more you adventure the more things are going to tax you and break down on you. I once had a guy come over to sight in a crossbow and hunt. First thing he did was break the plastic hold-down for the bolt (arrow) and he whined incessantly for 15 minutes how that shouldn’t happen and how could it happen and that’s not fair cause he just bought it. My thoughts: “You’re a pussy”. Bad shit happens. Be better than the bad shit that might interfere with your plans.

    If you happen to watch the HBO first season True Detective, one of the main protagonists claims after being nihilistic during the whole series:

    “Once there was only dark. If you ask me, the light’s winning.”

    Hopefully in my idealistic way of thinking, Once there was only Fem-centric bullshit, If you ask me men’s red-pill awareness and game are winning.

    So, Badpainter, I would challenge you and any other commentators to decide to enhance the “gang” that Rollo espouses and be vetted in a group of men sharing ideas. I think that showing up and being nihilistic shows a disservice the the manosphere group. Glenn showing up and admitting he is in a depressed funk can be beneficial to the group. Men good at being a man reach out and realize Glenn was once mighty, got injured and can be an asset to the group when he is stronger.

    Men that don’t share the idea that being a positive masculine male in a group of men in an online blog that is hosted by and ideal male (which is my impression of Rollo) giving drowning men a lifesaver is disingenuous. The way of men is the way of gang circling our space and making us better. Not infighting. You don’t have to blindly accept what any of us espouse, but you can at least work together to advance the cause of the male imperative. (Which you can define as people showing you respect for your accomplishments and you getting laid with variety).

    Advance the ball=help all of us men be better in our interactions with women. I can’t abide by nihilism. It never served me a meal in my life.

  25. I ask you. If you were in a post apocalyptic world. What would you do? Who you you group up with? Would you ditch your girlfriend or wife or kids?
    Would you give up? Would you fight. Could you form an adequate gang of worthy men to hang with?

    Would you lay down and die? Would you suddenly realize there is a value of strength, courage, mastery and honor in a gang of men, protecting the women that affiliate with them (the ones that are worth it? the ones’ that show you admiration and respect?)

    Why would you suddenly be alive in a post-apocalyptic world and realize you need to be good at being a man, where-as today in a comfortable civilized world you can coast along feeling sorry for yourself and not have to be at your best?

    Sure a post-apocalyptic world is far fetched, isn’t it?

    So is losing your marriage, your wife, your children, your hot fucking girlfriend, your parents, your house, your wealth.

    Nihilistic, you don’t aim to accomplish it because you don’t believe it will happen.

    Idealistically , you can accomplish wonderful things, but it dependent on your skills, your mindset, your resources, your lack of abuse by parents in childhood or BPD chicks in adult life, toxic spouses, toxic friends, nihilistic thoughts instilled in you by online blogs and any negative inter-sexual experiences.

  26. @Sun- “Fuck right off with that; I won’t be part of your wallowing in your own inability to change.”

    Your points would be valid of I was either wallowing or not changing my life for the better. I’ve got a teaching gig at a college and am now a professor, all while I am getting straight A’s in school towards a new career I’ve always wanted, I go to work full time, teach part time and am a full time student credit load. 4.0 grade point average. I train 4 days a weeks as well… and I am happier than I have ever been. All at 45.
    Call me when you do all that at my age with no family and most of your friends dead. I also game and spin plates.
    I bust my fucking ass, so, despite my love for you, fuck off with thinking I’m wallowing or trying to pull you down. Give me more credit than that.
    What I am trying to get across to people here is that 1. there is nothing wrong with doing things in part because women find it attractive. NOTHING wrong with it.. and if Rollo, Heartiste and God came down from the sky and said there was I’d call bullshit. It’s in our DNA. It’s why there are two balls hanging between your fucking legs. It’s why they pump out loads of testosterone and cum on a daily basis. It is NATURAL and there is no benefit or need to play the womans game of pretending the fish doesn’t need a bicycle.
    That is what you guys are trying.. exactly what feminist did- deny nature and the natural pull of our biology. Women have gone on and on about not needing men, not ever doing anything for men- hell it’s a point with women now that they never admit to doing anything for a man, it’s almost shameful for them to admit they even desire a man. And what has it made them? Other than crazy, miserable, rationalizing assholes.
    Being your own frame of reference means being honest about your biology, your drives and where they come from.
    Secondly, it all reminds me of those guys who read about how women like dark triad guys and then want to become emotionless psychopaths. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. You yourself, for example desire a family and have said so. You don’t think it’s part of the subconscious motivation for wanting to change? For wanted to improve your SMV? Do you think you’ve somehow “failed” if it did play a subconscious part in your motivations? We’re human fucking beings damn it. Look at Glenns post. Look at what the lack of family, love and appreciation lead to. He is, by force, a man who must exist as his own frame of reference, and its painful and you know what? He deserves better. In a better society he would have better. Just because the times we are born in make marriage and family a minefield is no reason to deny the pull, the genetic force of that desire. It’s simply denial to do so. You are denying your biology, thousands of years of evolution.. for NO benefit. None. It isn’t necessary to become some lone ascetic on some mountaintop of detachment.
    Here you go in a nutshell- do you doubt Rollos RP? Do you doubt that he manages to be marrried? Do you doubt he loves his wife? Do you doubt he is his own frame of reference? Do you doubt he feels the biological pull to family and love and his wife? Do you doubt that they are a part of his motivation and drive?
    So what makes it possible for Rollo to encompass all that, but somehow you admitting that women play a part of your drive and motivation somehow a terrible act, or a failure? You think I am trying to hold you back… I’m telling to reach for more. If I had a chance, even now of creating that, I’d take it. Eyes wide open. Mitigating risks, but I would. Until then, since it probably won’t happen, my choice is spin plates and fuck.. but I won’t lie to myself that that desire, that wish is there. Neither will I spin some ridiculous judgement of myself because that pull is there, that drive. I will not see what nature instilled in me as somehow wrong or something that needs eradication on the altar of Alpha wannabeism.
    But most off all, and in all sincerity, don’t take it personally. I’m no crab trying to pull you down and it’s a bullshit accusation. Maybe I am wrong, but my intent is never that. I, like you, am trying to reconcile my innate needs and desires with the changes I have to make in myself as well as trying to account for the society I currently live in. At the moment I see denying that women play a motivation in our actions and desires as being honest and not an evil bad thing.

  27. Rugby,

    Shit tests by males in a group are seriously more authentic than women shit testing males.

    Men need to vet males in a group to see if the are worthy of defending the tribe and being good enough for the team. If men don’t shit test other men, the group can’t decide who should join the group (ref. the post apocalypse: do you wan’t an incompetent pussy to join your group? No?, vet those who want to join your group and don’t include the weak males. They are not worth it.)

    Women shit test men to see if they are good enough for her alone.

    The former is more valuable to pass. The latter is essential to pass.

    You need to pass and fitness/shit test in an unemotional fashion and with skill. You need to know it is coming. Don’t discount the value of a masculine male group or shit testing by men in a group.

  28. Just this past week, on a business trip and practicing a little game I tugged on a hot little #’s ponytail (thanks Heartiste!) that I’d been joking and flirting with at the bar and she turned to me, pressed her hot body up against me and whispered in my ear “You only get to do that if you’re fucking me from behind.”

    . . . Hooooly shit that’s awesome. By God, I think that’s what successful flirtation looks like . . .

    I miss hearing girls say shit like that. Fuck, maybe I need to get back out there.

    By the way I love the tenor of your whole post. Couldn’t be more right. Trying to live that, to the extent possible within my existing constraints.

  29. @Glenn
    It is the Philippines for you, my friend! Old..broke..divorced..all is forgiven if you are white and have a social security check.

  30. ” if tomorrow HB9 s and 10s suddenly developed an overwhelming wetness and desire to marry and stay faithful to out of shape broke men.. every gym and place of employment would be empty, and none of these “I do it for me” guys would take one step into a gym. We all know it.”

    Goddamn this is stupid. Look, that’s part of what’s good about it. But frankly, as people have pointed out, chicks don’t even like muscle all that much. I mean there’s a certain level, but a lot of dudes work out past that level. Why? Because they’re fucking men.

    Being a man is not primarily about getting pussy. You have many other purposes in life. Achievement. Conquest. Strength. Wealth. Lots of men achieve up to the point at which they can pull vag easily, and continue well, well past that point. Whereas according to you rationally they should basically stop. Napoleon was conquering Europe by the time he was 29. Was he doing it for the vagina? Men in the past who were great hunters and warriors, did they do it because cute lil Mbebe back at the hut was going to be turned on by it? No, they did it because they had to eat, to provide for their tribe, and to defend their territory. And because they did that well, they were worthy men. And because they were worthy men, they got laid. That is the causal pathway that remains in place today.

    I’m spending shitloads of years studying and writing in an academic subject . . am I doing it for the vagina? No, because that would be stupidly counterproductive; I get laid a lot less (actually not at all) because of it. Sure, that’s a problem; but it’s not going to cause me to leave my line of work.

    So dude, don’t project your own shit on the rest of mankind. Most of the shit men do, they do because it is inherently satisfying. That is, the men who are worth a damn. It’s no accident that you don’t get that; most dudes these days don’t—because this is a decadent and shitty society without any real concept of manhood.

  31. As for whether this is symmetrical to women claiming they need men like a fish needs a bicycle . . . I totally agree that it won’t do to pretend that we don’t deeply, deeply desire women, to the point that it’s a need—a sexual need. But, fuck, you don’t spend all day ruminating about your need to eat. It only comes into play when you’re starving. In this day and age, at least, that’s an unnatural condition when it comes to food. I can’t say whether most men ever, or men today, are doomed mostly to starve when it comes to their sexual need for women. There is no doubt for me, personally, that I am a starving man in a cage being wheeled every day through a 5-star restaurant.

    Also men and women are not the same. For a woman to claim that she doesn’t need a man is retarded. Women are dependent on men, or at least on the civilization that men create and uphold. Dependence is the natural condition of women. But independence is the natural and preferred condition of men. And it is crucial to what makes them valuable, including to women. Hence the paradox that runs through our whole situation here.

    It would be ridiculous for me to pretend that I don’t need a girl, given that I’m basically starving to death. Yet I have to really, effectively pretend to have just come from an endless buffet to have even a chance at scraps. That act is my only chance to eat. Of course, I am fucking horrendous at putting it on, because massive deception takes a lot of energy and doesn’t come naturally to me. Not a lot of upside here! I don’t really see any way out.

  32. @Lucien- Christ another person who needs to read more into what I wrote to have a straw man to attack. I never denied that men do things because they are inherently worthy of doing in and of themselves. Life is full of those things. What YOU are denying is that men are primarily and biologically designed to compete and be motivated to behave in ways that are influenced by female selection.
    If you can not admit to that, if you can not admit that men kill themselves, and always have, for a chance to get laid, to fall in love, to have children, to protect and provide and feed them is the definition of insanity, and I can not believe you guys are peddling this horseshit.
    I have tens of thousands of years of history and biology on my side clearly showing that the sex drive, the desire to mate and be selected has been a prime motivator in male behavior.
    You guys have some bullshit rah rah “it’s all for me” bullshit you picked up from some blog posts that all started as a way to get guys to unplug from excessive neediness and dependence on female approval. Yes, that is where the idea of “doing it for yourself” came from. Is it useful? yes, Is it a good lesson to incorporate into your life? yes.
    It’s also sold as a way of becoming more attractive to women, of being higher status and as a way of raising your smv.
    Lucien, in the comment you quoted, the gentleman, who is married btw, goes on about how its all about him and not female approval, he then turns right around gives a story about pulling a girls hair and her wanting to fuck him as what? Proof of his value, his success. Do you not even see it? Lierally its this dumb – “I am all about me and I don’t need female approval or care what they think, and a girl wants to fuck me for it!! but I won’t cause I’m married-but I don’t care what my wife thinks, its all about me!!!”
    How much more fucking obvious does it need to be?
    But of course, you guys are beyond evolution, you guys have surpassed your genetic code.. I forgot. But take note as well Lucien- you didn’t quote him about his success at his hobbies, no, you quoted his success at getting a girl to want to fuck him.. in your own words “. . . Hooooly shit that’s awesome. By God, I think that’s what successful flirtation looks like .
    I miss hearing girls say shit like that. Fuck, maybe I need to get back out there.”
    I am not saying that men do not have their own likes and desires and pursuits.. What I am saying is that wanting, desiring and being motivated by female wetness is natural and normal and not a big bad thing everyone here is making it out to be. And for some reason, it’s really pissing you guys off.
    I wonder why….

  33. Sjfrelic – “I ask you. If you were in a post apocalyptic world…”

    My gut instinct is to ask for more detail, but let’s assume I’m thrust into Cormack McCarthy’s The Road. I ‘d die trying to retain my humanity. The how of that may mean a very short existence. 

    Quitting life and remaining alive is never an option. But we do, short of doomsday scenarios, have the option to choose how we live. We do not have the ability to choose the constraints. 

    I was previously quite happy with blue pill world view. I wasn’t winning, but I figured that was, as I had been taught, all my fault. I was part right. It is my fault in so far as I made the choices. However, given the blue pill was an illusion, and a lie I made choices that were in service of that lie. I’m a bit pissed about that, both my bad choices, and the lies I believed. So you’ll have to indulge my skepticism, and complete  lack of faith in that which I do not see with my own eyes. 

    When you mention finding a gang, I have one it’s small, but loyal. Given the discussion during the monthly meetings I think two of the guys are on cusp of finding the red pill, one simply doesn’t care, and one might have already, and rest are resigned to their blue pill fates unaware of the other possibilities.

    Overall, I think we’ll do OK versus zombies. I have doubts about the other scenarios. 

  34. @Lucien-
    “It would be ridiculous for me to pretend that I don’t need a girl, given that I’m basically starving to death. Yet I have to really, effectively pretend to have just come from an endless buffet to have even a chance at scraps. That act is my only chance to eat. Of course, I am fucking horrendous at putting it on, because massive deception takes a lot of energy and doesn’t come naturally to me. Not a lot of upside here! I don’t really see any way out.”

    There. Thats it. Thats all I am saying. Here, in this space, in this blog were we face many many fucking brutal and hard truths in order to grow.. here honesty above all else. Truth above all else. And here you gave truth. And there is no bad in it, no judgement, no lowering of you.. just the opposite, it raises you up to the truth. Only by being painfully honest can we figure out a real path forward.
    No more pretty fucking lies. Not for me. Not from society and not from myself.
    “yet I have to really, effectively pretend to have just come from an endless buffett”- that is all I wanted. The truth. The acknowledgement that we need to get in that headspace in some way, because if not we starve.

  35. According to sjfrellc’s logic – if you don’t wanna play Russian roullette with 3/6 bullets in the chamber you are a nihilist. It is all about the adventure.. be brave and be a MAN.

    Thank you for not indulging in tribalism, gynocentric shaming and naturalistic fallacies!

  36. @badpainter

    “I ‘d die trying to retain my humanity.”

    What a waste of a perfectly good life dude. Your “humanity” is a construct of your mind and the fiction of your ego.

    You sound so…conquered? I suspect conditioning but then I see you post here and I wonder why you aren’t learning or if its just your fear that you will lose this “humanity” you have constructed in your mind that keeps you down. Push your boundaries, thrive.

    Otherwise the wiser among you will latch on to your melancholy and as one of the Masters below details, you will not own yourself but be the pawn and drone of one who cares not a single wit about “humanity”.

    “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.” ― Sun Tzu

  37. @Badpainter

    Read, saw, comment stands.

    Take my comet test. Have a cup at Starbucks, wherever. Look around and play out the following:

    In one moment everyone is informed that a comet is headed for your location in 60 seconds and if you stand in one certain spot, one person in that coffee shop will live.

    Humanity is knowing without a doubt that you will and CAN slit the throat of ever man, woman, and child in that place to ensure your position. (the only caveat would be to ensure the position of your son ILO yourself).

    You play that game with yourself every 10 min. If you cant answer yes, work diligently on whatever fuckulations in yourself that deny that knowledge and FIND your “humanity”.

    PS. once you can honestly answer that question with a “yes, I can do this”, I PROMISE that women will open YOU.

    Strengthen your mind, the body will follow.

  38. @sjfrellc If somebody read my posts and found them cynical, I wouldn’t fault them. Many men on this site vent and express frustration with the current system. I have tried to temper my earlier posts with some (hopefully) constructive information.
    I personally don’t advocate nihilism as a solution for any man’s problem. However, it is imprudent to ignore the risks of marriage in the West. Even the highest SMV men face challenges today. Game and frame have little value in family court after all.
    As I’ve stated before, find a traditional wife or go to a place where marriage is still valued. Expatriation is no panacea but as men we can mitigate risk to a large extent. There are still places in the world where men are appreciated for their masculine virtues. That appreciation combined with a high enough smv may be enough to give some of us the stable and secure family life we crave. And isn’t going to where the cute, fun girls are a form of game 🙂 ?

  39. @ Tilikum

    You scenario presents me no obvious problem beyond the technical, but I draw the line at rounding up people for food. Eat the dead? Sure. Kill and eat my enemies. Sure. Start a people farm? Nope.

    Which is why that generic post-apocalypse question needs more info. Everything short of The Road is allows for cooperative solutions.

  40. @SUPERBETAVIRGIN I think sjfrellc meant we should strive to be better men and stay positive (ie burden of performance). It is hard to believe anybody on this site thinks marriage in the west is a good deal for men.

  41. @Lucien Newton died a virgin and I’m kinda glad he did. Imagine if he were alive today spending every weekend trying to pick up slags…how much would humanity lose?

  42. @Hobbes

    I bust my fucking ass, so, despite my love for you, fuck off with thinking I’m wallowing or trying to pull you down. Give me more credit than that.

    Those are strictly outward actions you’re talking about. Inwardly, you’re still stuck in a place that you’re handing me a list of rationalizations to stay in. This is the bucket I say you’re attempting to drag me in to by claiming the transition to a self focus is “bullshit”.

    It shows in how you’re willing to give the same “if chicks liked unhealthy guys tomorrow you’d start being unhealthy” weak-minded argument I hear from betas on the internet all the time. It’s patently ridiculous because it implicitly says “No matter what I’ve learned here, I’m still gonna let chicks ultimately decide shit for me”. Really, I honestly can’t believe you trotted that one out and tried to tell me that’s who I am. It might be who you are, but there’s clearly things about me you don’t grasp.

    That is what you guys are trying.. exactly what feminist did- deny nature and the natural pull of our biology.

    Bzzzt, feminists used our nature against us. They they explicitly used male nature (high sex drive that can easily become a focus on appeasing women if allowed to do so) against males and continue to do so. You want to deny them that power? Go back a state where you’re in control of the situation instead of letting the pussy pass make all your choices. Instead of letting them drag your mental focus outside, move it back inside and make them come to you.

    At the moment I see denying that women play a motivation in our actions and desires as being honest and not an evil bad thing.

    You’re rationalizing for yourself here.

    You’re taking pot shots at the guys who are in a place you can’t reach yet, and telling others reaching for that place that it doesn’t exist. I said nothing about not appeasing my sexual impulses. Only that those impulses cannot be allowed to move my focus outside of me since that becomes women controlling me.

    By saying that no man saying “I’m doing this just for me” can’t truly mean it, you’re trying to project your internal failings on to me. That’s bullshit. If you want to just follow a script and get chicks, then it’s no wonder you’d quit the gym if HB10s starting wanting fat guys tomorrow. If you’re only doing all those external things you do right now because chicks approve, I’m unimpressed. You’re a child with dynamite, and sooner or later it’s gonna blow up in your face. That only affects you though.

    Trying to claim that the mindset I’ve come part of the way to of truly doing these things for myself is a lie? Trying to claim I’ve got to somehow accept that I’m stuck with that mindset of letting pussy make my decisions forever? Trying to tell me to pretty much revert to exactly what I was before I came here because you can’t make this change in yourself? That’s why I said to fuck off with it.

  43. It doesn’t work that way Tom. I had no wealth going into the marriage, so there was nothing to preserve prior to getting married. 1990 in the Midwest was a different ERA. “I thought it was a good thing to do at the time”, turned out that I’m glad I did it. I picked what my mentor tells me is an anomaly. But give me credit. I’m a lot smarter than I look. And my intellect has been a source of a wellspring of reinvention. I don’t think marriage is a good deal in 2015, mainly because women to pick from are few and far between of being worthy.

    I had the balls (courageousness) to lock a good one down when she was 25. Yes it’s been difficult, but worth it.

    Yes I’m invested with ego and money. Do I like where I am? Yes.

    If you had insignificant wealth and told your fiance you wanted a pre-nup, she would recognized you as the retarded idiot that you are. It doesn’t work that way.

    That being said, as we speak, I can employ economic dread as I pack away
    $58 K a year in both our 401K’s pay for my childrens college and formerly packed every cent into equities and municiple bonds back when the money was flowing (and my wife didn’t know what a municiple bond was and how liquid it was. [….but I kid…]).

    Again, I not here to brag. I’m here to get you off your ass. Assert maculine positive male attributes. Make you better at being a man. Give Rollo props for telling it like it is. And thank him for the intellectual clarity of the red pill. It is not scary. It is what it is.

  44. @Sun- Now you are being deliberately obtuse to avoid my meaning, I see you can not address my real point- not that you cant work on yourself- never said that. Not that you can’t go through life without being a slave to pussy- I deliberately stated as much.
    This canard you are coming at me with not being at some level you have reached is just that- some imagining on your part. Notice I never, at any point had to attack anyone to make my point, the one you keep ignoring..
    That men are evolved to want, desire, and be motivated by reproduction. That this influences our behavior and our choices, and that saying you can drive that away is unnecessary and illogical to living a free and self ruled life.
    Again…. notice no judgements of you, no BS assumptions on your “level” and whatever other crap you need to throw my way.
    You are obviously threatened. By a simple, scientific fact of biology. That the desire to procreate, to love, to provide.. is inside you.
    In other, less guarded occasions you have even admitted to it. Your desire for a family, etc. Hell, the simple fact that you admit that you are “trying to become” admits that these things are inside you, that you are working on them, that they EXIST. You know what doesn’t exist- right here right now? This state of complete “all about me” you are so busy arguing about. Weird right? The thing we both agree exists right now is the thing you say isn’t real, the thing that doesn’t exist, is the thing you call “real”.. but I am the one rationalizing? Amazing. You’re smarter than this, so this must be emotional for you.
    I’ll say it one more time and leave you to your “superior” bullshit- admitting to those wants and desires, to those natural drives are not a trap into enslavement, or an excuse to abandon yourself or your goals or to justify sitting on your ass moping about pussy or women. It is about- as Lucien eventually did- admitting to our natural biological urges and then, honestly, without the Oprah “I believe it so its real” crap, and moving forward. You literally sound like some recent BP denialist who hears about Hypergamy, or AWALT being womens nature and going into a complete tailspin over it. He immediately attacks, and gets angry. I am pointing out the basics of male evolution and you are attacking me as if I’m killing Santa and sending you to your room. As if I’m telling you not to work on yourself. Are you serious?

    1. Going to sleep but I felt that before I go I was just thinking of trying to explain to to my farther about early self rejection in my upbringing caused serious harm.
      I learned about myself by admitting I am wrong more often than not. My darter is blue pill and I do love him. I am not sure if one thing I am deprive is shit test by males. I don’t have that and I would crave that more often than not. Just thinking about death for reason because some good male buddy’s aren’t around anymore.
      This comes close to leaving the red and blue behind and admitting your life not in defeat but in choice. I can’t go back to admitting how being blue was even remotely not self rejection being blue is self rejection. That is who I was and doing without realizing it. I would wager if meeting you folks in person was an option which I hope could happen one day. You would be appealed by how effeminate some traits I have are.
      A weird thing I have been learning about myself is how hollow I am in person. I have a hard time listing and anger people who meet me because my boundaries just are horrendous the risk and danger I do is play for myself parkour rugby rope swings dancing poi fire spinning vaccine research
      Nothing is appealing unless I temid myself about fashion and fitness.
      I love breaking my heart and body not with drugs porn or alcohol but with a constant need to push into the unknown. Ultra running was one way to deal with anxiety and depression the most suicidal points in my life came from not running or going on 100 mile bike rides. The one thing about my life is that I haven’t learned to deal with my feelings. I didn’t get away from being shit tested from my disbalenced feminen family. It won’t stop and I am getting better at accepting that it will never stop. I don’t know how to love my dad anymore his ruins blue pill he isn’t just beta he is completely Beta submissive to my mother to the tee. He never was able to teach me what being masculine was. He made fun of my attemps to learn maybe on purpose or maybe not. It was brutal and far more degrading to remember. Imagine being little and having your siblings dress you as a women for a family picture? That stuff with a healthy male role model would be dealt with immediacy but maybe not laughed at as a joke of your upbringing. I have no complaints and I have no reason to critize nor will I ever complain. One gift to myself is admitting I am not only wrong but that I am human. Not just hurt but happy. My dad used to hit me when the emotions of my mother would trigger the rage of his farther. I tried to talk him out of using violence but it was to late. This surge would run to his Head and this vein would pop out of his head. I love my farther to death but he shamed me for even bringing up masturbation at 13. He humiliated me so well that I gave up on myself at one point and forgot to grow up. I didn’t give up I just didn’t know how to ask for help with out being not made fun off just humiliated. It was and still is a buffer. But my only escape was writing thug people would throw me in hospitals for. I once wrote a letter to myself about whole body harvesting because my aunt died and than my sister tried to take her life and it was all to much. I didn’t wanna take my life but I didn’t know game I had no male friends no male would tolerate any of my behaviors an d by just see a beta but angry for even having to explain to stop being so goddamn femine. Whole body harvesting was my solution to use the savior white knight complex. Huge ego investment and a lack of self worth tied to some serious incestuous relationships with two sisters and my mother. My dad came home once and this is the red pill point of origin in what is remotely masculine to me. I was 16 and both my sisters where fighting over a guy they each had sex with. My older one pulled out a knife and as I walked in the room my younger sister two years yougner got stabbed. I open the door and my dad sat their while it happen and looked at me in a state of utter despair (here son I need you to grew a pair of balls and manage the affairs of the women here) I was scared because I didnt know what to do. My farthers only verbal response was (we have a crazy family) if anyone one could have saved anything it was awareness on human behavior my farther always put on me. Not sure he meant to but a lot of violence and blood could have been saved if he knew how and why feral women can and will do in moments of despair. My main issue now is knowing that I am not nor ever was correct in anything remotely close to the opposite sex.
      Here’s to my farther who perhaps meant well but helped me find you wonderful strangers
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4fXmDNp7ZeM

  45. sjfrellc
    April 17th, 2015 at 1:40 am

    Ah. The myth of the worthy woman. None of them are. What you want are good genes, brains, and the desire to have at least 3 or 4 children. Marriage is for children. If you don’t want kids there is no point in it.

    To stay married – for the children – maintain the interest of other women as

    Thoroughbred
    April 16th, 2015 at 7:49 am

    describes.

    Went out last week and had 4 women take an interest in me – in front of the wife. Keeps them on their toes when they experience that you have options. BTW it has nothing to do with age. I’m 70. It has to do with maintaining your “bad boy” attitude. A sense of adventure.

  46. M Simon,
    My children @ 20 and 23 have good genes. Half of them from me, half from her. I’m intellectual, she is attractive and socially skilled. As a woman, she just Gets It. The best of both, different worlds. Good kids. I’m sure my life would be different if the third didn’t end in a miscarriage at three months. I never was that robust to have three or four kids. Things worked out for me just at where I thought is the sweet spot. Time flies. And things work out if you perform well.

    I never said any woman are as worthy as they should be. I’m not as SMV worthy as you or Thoroughbred. So I’ll take my wife. She’s more than worthy enough for me. She is a fine woman. And no amount of internet banter is enough to convince me otherwise.

    Roissy’s ninth commandment of Poon has been revelation and a redemption my last two years.

    I’m in a dynamic time and I don’t shirk my responsibilities to always be performing. But I have lowered the effort to performance with red pill awareness and game skill.

    “Ah. The myth of the worthy woman. None of them are. What you want are good genes, brains, and the desire to have at least 3 or 4 children. Marriage is for children. If you don’t want kids there is no point in it.”

    Did I say anything about worthy, or that she couldn’t leave me, or that I’m worried if she did? I can believe all woman are not worthy to my son. I won’t
    believe your assertions that my my wife is not worthy of my ongoing relationship. All I said is that she is very attractive and very worth having sex with. One of the big mistakes of married man game is to not keep frame,originally in the relationship. I slipped in the middle, but had enough sense to regain frame lately in the last two years and re-establish frame. With help from the Manosphere. And Married man game is pretty much limited to Rollo’s blog.

    My marriage is fine. I got married 25 years ago when I thought it was a good idea. She has fine genes and a good brain. If I dropped her in marriage she would be laid like tile about two seconds after I exited. I have a great capacity to not have one-itis (always had that inborn instinct). She could leave me and I would be ok, but I have not encountered another that is as much worth in a high functioning society (1 out of 18 divorce rate, high income, no-one lacking economically) around me.

    Why would you insinuate that my wife is not worth my investment and yours is? I admire your comments, but do you have an issue with mine? Am I not genuine, am I overly confident or disingenuous?

    Monogamous sex with a high quality woman is not the devil it is made out to be.

    Again, not bragging, just stimulating your thought process. All woman are not worthless. There are not many worthy woman, for sure. But, don’t fault me for being idealistic. I care nothing for what you think about me.

    I care about men executing at the highest level they can.

  47. @Hobbes

    Are you serious?

    If I haven’t made that clear at this point, then you’re not paying attention.

    There is no “canard” being used here, and there is no “denial” of biological reality. In fact, as I mentioned above it’s in being aware of your own biology being used against you that a man can turn his mental point of origin inwards. When you claim a man can’t do that, you’re advocating the PUA script of simply learning the monkey dance without changing the internals. You keep ignoring THAT central point I’ve made repeatedly.

  48. @Hobbes

    A side note: if I was living in complete denial of biological sexual impulses, then the place I would go from here is MGTOW. However, I don’t go that way. Why do you think that is?

  49. @Glenn “At 52, with my daughter having been ruined for me by all of this shit, I now face old age alone. I have two sisters and a brother I’m close with, and some very good friends, but nonetheless, I’m alone. 30s-40s, lots of fun, running around skiing and rock climbing and sailboat racing and the south of France, now? All I think about is stuffing enough away so I don’t eat catfood in retirement.”

    I feel for you brother. We’re the same age and although my kids aren’t ruined for me and I still have them with me half the time, I catch myself thinking this same thing.

    I found two things that help me. The first is I stopped looking so far down the road. I’m not talking some new age live-in-the-moment bullshit. I mean if your goal oriented, its hard not to be have an end-goal in mind. I just try to quit thinking that I have to be going somewhere long-term. Every time you contemplate retirement or ten-years-from-now, catch yourself and change focus. Get up and do something, go somewhere, anything to divert your attention. If you dwell on the future, you’ll go crazy. Becoming a homebody is not good.

    The second thing is to find something short or medium term to work towards. I have a couple things I’m planning that help. Is there anyway to rehab your relationship with your daughter? That could be something to work towards.

    I don’t mean to be flippant, but my Dad had a couple sayings I keep coming back to in my mind: “You could get used to hanging if you could survive long enough” and “This too shall pass”.

  50. @Sun- I get what you are saying- I am just disagreeing with it. I don’t think becoming your own frame of reference and changing your internal frame has anything to do with pretending that you an kill, or even that it is beneficial, to kill of his natural internal drives/desires.
    I listened to Rollos interview and the part where he spoke of his wife and family. I didn’t hear Rollo saying, like the comment that I was responding to that started this whole debate, that he “didn’t give a fuck” about what his wife thought, etc. He sounded to me like he very much loved her and cared about her. And I am pretty sure Rollo has much better frame than most of us here, I’m pretty sure his frame is pretty fucking solid.
    In the that comment the person spoke about how he has so internalized being his own frame of reference that he didn’t give a shit about what his wife thought, or what women thought etc etc. Of course he gushed about how some woman was hot for him- i.e. caring. And he decided not to fuck her because of his wife- i.e. caring. I called BS and it stands. It’s obvious that he gives a fuck,
    Now compare that with Rollo. Who has the better frame? I find Rollos example much more internally consistent and one that is much more difficult to achieve and master, and so much more worthy a path. And I say that as someone who knows I will probably never get married as Rollo has.
    “I mentioned above it’s in being aware of your own biology being used against you that a man can turn his mental point of origin inwards.”
    And are we not already aware of this? Is this not what Preventative maintenance was all about? You already know this, so where is it required to do as that commenter did and walk about pretending not to care about anyone but oneself, when it is so obvious that he does.In spades. Walking around claiming that its “all about me” isn’t being your own frame of reference, it’s juvenile, self serving and, my point, transparent.
    And if you did choose to go MGTOW with it at least that would be consistent. I give them much more respect than I do the guy who in one breath tells me how he has so mastered his own frame of reference he doesn’t give a fuck about his wife or women or anyone, who then gushes about some chick who wants to fuck him, but then doesn’t because, you know, his wifey. lol

  51. “changing your internal frame has anything to do with pretending that you an kill, or even that it is beneficial, to kill of his natural internal drives/desires.”
    _____________________

    I disagree.

    Although I don’t share Sun’s history and certainly had to go through a lot less…the *unmodified, baseline* behaviour of men is to treat women well.
    There is no denying that.

    Now look at this vector:

    Recognizing this behaviour let me avoid/break off LJBF and advance at work.
    Reducing this behaviour got me laid with HB5s, MILFs and other easy targets – with spectacular sex.
    Damaging this behaviour got me a really hot “LTR” (in adverted commas because I consider no women really worthy of a full human connection anymore) with over-the-top sex ON SILENT COMMAND.
    Killing this behaviour and this mindset (wich I am about to achieve by constant reflection, continued daygame, constantly reaffirming myself etc. pp.) is sure to make me drown in premium pussy.

    My exterior barely changed, I look absolutly average and my style is abysmal. I am not big, not very muscular, not tall, not rich…im am drone 447. 😉 Ok, sligthly higher IQ, but not in any really big way that women notice (aka –> money-making super-IQ).

    The only thing that changed – is my mind.

    The vector is extremly clear:
    The closer I come to dark traid behaviour (which I will never completly master, because sadly my narzicism and machiavelism scores are very low, only psychopathy doing ok) – the more success with women I get.

  52. @Glenn 4:50 pm

    I remember trying to explain it to some woman I was dating once, I think she was trying to size me up for marriage material, and I don’t know, I just snapped and decided to be real with her, and I told her how it was. “Well, here’s the thing, if we got married and had more children, what’s to stop you from one day just changing your mind, and I lose another family?”

    […] she didsn’t say anything as she – like most women – considered that ability to scrape off an unwanted husband, but keeping the kids and some cash to help raise them her privilege. She knew she couldn’t look me in the eyes and say she would never do that, it was quite a revealing moment.

    […] I didn’t give a fuck and I cut her off. I told her, “[…] Have you ever had a family and lost it? Do you really have any idea what any of this shit is really like? No, I don’t think so. So don’t tell me that I have no right – I have every right.”

    It was interesting, it was like I brought the divorce forward. You see, this is a feature for women, not a bug (as we say in the software business). She was outraged that I was so focused on divorce and losing another family, but her attitude wasn’t, “No honey, I love you so much I’d never leave you” it was more like, hey, just roll the dice and live with it. And oh yeah, stop whining about it.”

    —————————-

    It’s amazing how your story meets one of my last relationships. I am an European man living in Central America. She was a very beautiful Central American woman. Intelligent, elegant and hard-working, not with bad feelings, but self-absorbed and domineering. She snapped from time to time and behaved like a bitch. Every time she behaved like this, I dumped her and she came back after some months and I made the mistake of trying to be friends with her so we could eventually be a couple again. But before the “being a couple” phase arrived, she snapped again and behaved like a bitch so I cut her from my friendship. Wash, rinse, repeat.

    This girl had an unusual bug. The cognitive system that keeps people from saying what they think was partly damaged in her. So, over the years, she said some things that other women must have thought about me, but they had the good sense of keeping it to themselves. Some time, she told me: “I don’t want to be your girlfriend, right now. But, if I am 35 and I don’t have a couple, I will call you” (that is, the typical AFBB). In other occasion, she told me that, if we married and I wanted less kids than her, she was willing to have “an accident” and get her pregnant against my will. Some years later, she told me that she wanted to get married because she thought about the future and “there are so many women with infertility problems out there”.

    Anyway, after several years of this on-off friendship, I decided to address the major issue and I wrote an email telling her: “Your mother is divorced. This is a great deal to me because daughters of divorced parents are more likely to divorce”. I thought she was going to answer “No honey, I am not like my mother. I love you so much I’d never leave you. And I believe marriage is forever”. Not that I could believe her, because women say this all the time and then change their mind and divorce. But it would have been somewhat reassuring.

    She answered in a mail telling the following words: “I am not my mother. I will decide if I will divorce the man I marry or if he will stay with me until death”. This froze my blood. It’s not that I am naive. I know that every woman does this. But they do it in an unconscious way: they think they are going to stay married and then change their mind. But this girl was saying it up front in a completely rational way, as a matter of fact. It made a huge difference to me. It was the straw the broke the camel’s back.

    I told her: “Fair enough. But I am not interested in this deal. You can decide if you will divorce or won’t, but decide it far away from me”. She cried, she told me I was putting her words out of context. I regret not having the verbal ability to say the sentence she deserved: “Yes, you will decide if you will divorce or won’t, but I will decide if we will marry or won’t. And my decision is that we won’t”.

    After that, I cut her completely. She tried to reach me twice. Since I was not answering, she put a status on her Whatsapp saying “If you are afraid about the future, you won’t be able to live your dreams” or some other crap like that (translation: “roll the dice and live with it, but I won’t do it. I want you to accept all the risk”). So I removed her from my Whatsapp.

    And this is why I co-sign Glenn’s word “It was interesting, it was like I brought the divorce forward. You see, this is a feature for women, not a bug”. Bringing the divorce forward is enlightening.

  53. @sjfrellc

    As you’ve stated, you are from a different era. How much experience do you have dealing with women of today? Dating today’s women? I’ve seen the lives of countless upper middle-class couples up close (including my own). Your experience is not the norm.
    I’m glad I didn’t marry at 30. As I accumulate assets, I realize how valuable the combination of money and freedom are. Barring an act of god, I will be able to retire by my mid-40s. This is the best path for a professional man today.

    For men in my situation, a pre nup is an excellent tool. As for the utility of pre nups early in one’s career, remember that they can also protect against assuming a partner’s debt. Most professional couples of this era enter marriage with hundreds of thousands in debt. My ex had over 100K in loans from a masters alone. Every man should avail himself of whatever legal protections are available prior to marriage. It is only rational.

    We all should be better men. However, we should also strive to be rational and game aware. No man should become like Boxer in Animal farm, martyring himself for an indifferent and cruel master.
    If we are to act rationally, we should sidestep the issue of marriage altogether.

    Cohabitate in a state without common law marriage, draft a palimony agreement just in case, and shelter your assets offshore. Of course, one would follow Rollo’s plan and maximize his smv and assets prior to commitment. Better yet, move to a country where the laws are neutral or favor men. The east is where most of the growth will be anyway. A man’s commitment is extremely valuable and shouldn’t be squandered.

  54. I stumbled onto this site courtesy of the Chateau and have been devouring its content for a few months now. First comment incoming…

    When I was of the marrying age, I believed I never wanted a daughter, primarily because of my overprotective nature. Dad was a nationally ranked collegiate wrestler around 6’3″ and mom was a beauty queen. My siblings and I were blessed with genes. As a result, I became a bit of brawler through junior high and high school protecting my sister from cads. I assumed any daughter I had would remain in my home until my passing. I was told with a daughter, it was every guy’s cock I’d have to worry about, but with my sons, I’d only have to worry about one.

    My fears couldn’t have been more misplaced and I couldn’t have been more deceived…

    I am now the father of four sons, ages eight, six, four and two (no daughters). I always knew something was wrong, but sites like this have put a voice to my fears, and I am grateful.

    I recently watched a family movie with my sons, Steve Carrell in “Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day”. The feminine imperative is no better demonstated than with the oldest son’s interaction with his girlfriend. I paused the movie at least a half dozen times to explain to my two oldest what was wrong, oftentimes having to control my anger at what I was seeing and hearing. My wife is an avid follower of the manosphere and its goings-on. The look in her eyes as I explained things to my sons was of wholehearted agreement and admiration. She even supplied some commentary of her own.

    Those of you with young sons know how they’re like sponges at this stage in their life. We have to remain vigilant to counter the ever present miasma the FI slips into commericals, cartoons, games, etc. I’m not teaching my sons Game or that women are evil, but I am establishing in them a self-worth and value separate and beyond what a FI society “bestows” on them. I want them to find value in themselves: in their conduct, in their work, in their demeanor. Always speak the truth, but don’t use it as a weapon to shatter self-confidence. Encourage them, but have no tolerance for quitting. Listen with your ears and your heart. It’s too easy to get busy and blow it off. To this day I remember an incident with my dad that was crushing. As fathers, the most important thing we can do is be an example of what a man should be. The next most important thing is to fight FI / blue-pill bullshittery right in front of them.

    P.S. I’m counting the days until Braveheart, Saving Private Ryan, 300, Band of Brothers, Rocky, Tombstone, Godfather 1 & 2, The Last Samurai, Seven Samurai, Heartbreak Ridge, Gladiator, etc…

  55. Tom,

    “As you’ve stated, you are from a different era. How much experience do you have dealing with women of today? Dating today’s women? I’ve seen the lives of countless upper middle-class couples up close (including my own). Your experience is not the norm.”

    I’ll accept that it is not the norm. I don’t date today’s women. I do know the lack of quality friends and associates experience. Thing is I interact with a lot of women on a day to day basis. I employ eight women. No men. I am a physician and see certainly need to “deal” with women. Lots of them. I am a keen observer of behavioral psychology as an outgrowth of my internal medicine (real hard core doctoring) and then my Dermatology training (which if very fem-centric). Interacting socially with couples and women at the country club is quite entertaining. As I look around, my wife is the best woman with good character that I see. I’ll take that anomaly.

    I agree with your notions of pre-nup and palimony agreements. I didn’t have any of those issues. I at peace if my wife walks away with half my cash and prizes, but she is highly worth keeping.

    “A man’s commitment is extremely valuable and shouldn’t be squandered.”

    The flip side of that is that if an opportunity comes along (an anomaly) and assuming you have good judgement, then not committing can squander a excellent possibility. My situation is working to my satisfaction. And it was certainly not dumb luck.

  56. @Glenn (& Tom)

    I’ve brought up “prenup” with 5 women I’ve been with who have asked the “When are we getting married?” questions.

    Without fail, each flew off the handle into a tirade, and each began with a version of “If you loved me….!”

    I’d let them rant and make their points against. Then, I would begin my counter-points. Mine started off with: “Well, if YOU loved ME…”

    Continued with: “…this would be a non-issue.”

    and concluded simply with: “I’d never actually get a pre-nup, as they don’t work. However, your freak-out, and your preservation of an “out” should we get married, has demonstrated to me, proven to me, that you want to get married so that we can get divorced. Otherwise, the terms of divorce would be a non-issue, right? You screamed so yourself. Now is the point where you get up and leave.”

    Of course, the women of my family would eventually ask, “What happened between you and so-and-so?” (Paraphrasing here, of course.)

    To which I would reply: “She brought up marriage.”
    “And?”
    “I brought up the idea of a pre-nup.”

    Before anything else could be said, the aunt/mother/cousin/female friend would launch into an IDENTICAL shaming and guilt-ing jamboree.

    And, I’d casually respond with: “That’s exactly the horrible reaction SHE had.”

    Here’s where it gets interesting; the older “post-wall” women recognized this as their cue to afford me the floor and hear my logic. The younger, pre-wall women launched into another tizzy, spewing more shame and guilt “for even thinking of it that way”.

    With either, when I concluded that whichever woman, “…responded in such a manner that I didn’t trust (questioned) her motivations.”, the bitching stops.

    Agree and escalate? Yes, let’s get married, sign here, initial here, and sign and date here. To the women who heard my logic, their mouths would drop and they would sit, stupefied, that “covering my ass” hadn’t even occurred to them as a good quality in a man before (…I beat them over the head with it).

    “She should WANT me to protect myself; she should want to be with me MORE because I do, as she would be afforded the same protection by proxy.”

    “Wow. I… Uh… never saw it THAT way before.”

    And, just a couple days ago, the son of one of those aunts who busted my balls about “pre-nup” texted me that he’s getting married. Shocking.

    I’m not looking forward to that talk.

    Also interesting, when my current frau brought up marriage, and I brought up a pre-nup, she actually (shockingly!) responded agreeably:
    “Uh… I guess, if that’s what you need. Though, I can’t see us ever getting a divorce.”

    In my head, I’m thinking “Right. Because we aren’t married. The second we get married, though…”

    Nevertheless, she’s stuck around through a shit-storm that would have shaken the fleas-of-the-past off in the first gale. Her actions are “till death to us part” so far, so, after she finishes the buy-in, I’ll consider.

    We’ve agreed that, currently, marriage would be grossly unfair to me. She agreed to bring half to the table before marriage was an option. We live in a 50/50, no questions asked, state. As such, she accepted and validated my concerns, and agreed to have more, herself, to lose. And so it was agreed: when she is vested, we’ll decide then if there is any benefit. She stays with me and celebrates our union, despite not being officially sanctioned by the government. We like it this way, in fact. We celebrate being functional, autonomous, non-co-dependent people that are free to come and go as we please. She understands that, by fighting, we’ve got nothing to gain and everything to lose. Whereas, if we were married, she would have incentives to be unruly/pick fights, as she could split with half my shit.

    We stay legally separate, though, because this state doesn’t recognize common-law marriage. So, we enjoy the benefits of a stable, monogomous relationship, with none of the pitfalls. What’s more, when she tried the “bait-and-switch complacency fatness” thing, dread worked, instead of backfiring. “(Her name), I’m afraid that I just don’t have enough love for ALL of you anymore. Most of you, I love, the rest? I don’t love that shit at all. *pokes flab*” Minus six pounds in two weeks, and counting.

    Here’s something that came up, though: Our families approve of us being together. Her family likes me, my family, her. However, if we don’t plan on getting married, when is our family going to have an opportunity to give us wedding presents? It’s clear, our families want to support us, but without the excuse of marriage, how can they (in a socially acceptable way)?

    We recently met a couple that went through the whole process: the church show, the reception, the honeymoon… but they never signed the marriage license. So, we’ve considered something along those lines: do the dance, make everyone happy and give them the show they want to see, but not submit to the laws we don’t agree with, and retain our legal independence from each other. That is, marry spiritually, but not legally.

    It’s a tough thing for some folks to comprehend as even a real option.

    When I met her father, he went on the standard, red-faced, in my space, “you better not hurt my daughter or I’ll fucking kill you… seriously” trip. To which I responded with:
    “Hey… watch this. *glances over shoulder at his daughter* “Will you marry me?”

    (Father’s face goes white, eyes go wide, like WTF!)
    [I actually shifted my weight to take the punch that I thought was imminent: he balled a fist]

    “Of course.” (zero hesitation)

    (nothing but a half-smirk on my face, solid eye contact …his daughter spoke up over-my-shoulder first)

    “The marriage laws in the States are fucked, though.”

    Man, I wish I could’ve heard what that man was thinking right then. He went from violent threats in my face to completely flabbergasted in a heartbeat. He very likely expected some nervous “Yes, sir. Rest assured, uh… I love your daughter: I won’t hurt her, sir. Whatever you say, sir.” Instead of some cowering lump of shit fumbling in fear to respond to his threats, he got SHOWN. “Not yours, sir, MINE.” I had a chuckle on the plane ride back when I realized the scope of what happened.
    ________________

    To the original topic: I’ve adjusted my expectations of women to be simple: “They are deluded. Peers, media, and marketing have them living in a fantasy world, and as a result, have grossly unrealistic expectations of men.”

    It really helps me to see particular women clearly: I mean, they stick right out when a woman EXCEEDS my expectations. I take notice when women speak of having a positive regard for men, or own their mistakes/misunderstandings (accountability).

    Expect women to be ridiculous, and you are pleasantly surprised more often than disappointed. It’s like “Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.” My only experiences have been “worst”, so, maintaining faith that there is a “best” out there is a tough religion.

    Hope for “till death do us part”, prepare for “when she parts do us part”. I just love ’em till they leave, anymore. They will leave, death or otherwise, expect it.
    _________

    To who thinks taxes are certain like death: they are not. The first American income tax was instituted back in the 1860’s to pay for the civil war. In that regard, sure, taxes are as certain as the death that results from war: pay your taxes and you’re paying for death. We still pay for war with our income tax…

    IF we have income. No “income”, no income tax.
    Tax is completely voluntary. You chose your involvement, just as with women. True, you have to “pay to play”, but, if you don’t play, you don’t have to pay.

    Construct your life like a self-sustaining business with zero overhead and you won’t depend on an income.

    This is why so many are dropping out of the workforce: Money doesn’t buy shit anymore, and jobs don’t pay shit anymore, so they reconstruct their lives, out of necessity, to have zero overhead. Once there, people realize it’s awesome, “I wish I did this sooner!”, and don’t care to plug back into the matrix. “Too big to fail” has led to “Too small to win”. Can’t win? Don’t bother suiting up for the game. Find another game to play, one that you could potentially win at, because this one is rigged to hustle zombies.

    Zombies with credit cards, by the way, which is also why the economy is tanking: no jobs, no credit, no frivolous spending, no “growth”. Of course, that leads to even less jobs, less credit, and less frivolous spending, prices go up, inflation goes up, interest rates go up, which leads to still less jobs… down, down, down we go… WEEEEE!!!

    *insert toilet flush sounds here*

    How hot does the water have to get before the frogs start jumping out?
    (rhetorical, “trick” question)

    1. @Vulpine: “the church show, the reception, the honeymoon… but they never signed the marriage license. So, we’ve considered something along those lines: do the dance, make everyone happy and give them the show they want to see, but not submit to the laws we don’t agree with, and retain our legal independence from each other. That is, marry spiritually, but not legally.”

      Here in Colorado, if you live together and refer to each other publicly as “husband and wife”, then you have a Common Law Marriage, which is legally binding. No license required. To avoid it, call her your Woman, and make sure she calls you her Man, but never Husband and Wife.

  57. We don’t typically use those dirty words against each other. If I call her “wife”, she understands that I’m insinuating that she’s being a bitch.

    Funny thing about her native language, man and husband are the same word: “Man”.

    …which goes a long way to explain why she has any value to me in the first place.

  58. @Vulpine
    Spiritual marriage in a state without palimony and common law marriage is best. You can manage a woman with game but not the state :).

  59. @sjfrellc
    “My marriage is fine. I got married 25 years ago when I thought it was a good idea. She has fine genes and a good brain. If I dropped her in marriage she would be laid like tile about two seconds after I exited. I have a great capacity to not have one-itis (always had that inborn instinct). She could leave me and I would be ok, but I have not encountered another that is as much worth in a high functioning society (1 out of 18 divorce rate, high income, no-one lacking economically) around me.
    Why would you insinuate that my wife is not worth my investment and yours is? I admire your comments, but do you have an issue with mine? Am I not genuine, am I overly confident or disingenuous?
    Monogamous sex with a high quality woman is not the devil it is made out to be.
    Again, not bragging, just stimulating your thought process. All woman are not worthless.”

    I love reading about your marriage and how you drive your own future and masculinity. Seriously, the manosphere is so depressing at times (and so full of nihilism and pessimism against any thought of trying) that it is tempting to just give up trying to reach out to women to get them to change… I mean, why do it when men would not appreciate quality women anyway. You appreciate your wife, she gets it and sounds like she admires and respects you – and has for 2.5 decades 🙂 but still there are men telling you that monogamy is blue pill… that there are no quality women… that a good marriage with a good woman has no benefits for men.

    If the manosphere cannot even recognize when there are women who want to support it, encourage it, and use it’s truths to comparatively teach young women how to be better women (for MEN!), then they are going to lose a lot of women by their nihilism. It’s seriously draining and depressing… and I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me want to give up.

  60. Dragonfly,

    You are simply seeing detection bias in your survey of the manosphere.

    I just took my Dermatology recertification boards (third time after every ten years) last week and there was a question: Match the type of bias: Patients who see dermatologists are more likely than patients who see primary care physicians to have the diagnosis of seborrheic keratosis in their medical records. The correct answer was detection bias.

    The people in the comments section here are a slice of men that have endured pain and heartache. Most are not through the Kubler-Ross stages of loss. You can see it in the writing: there is real, real pain and heart-ache.

    I could be one of those men if I didn’t have the ample resources I have (good finances, good intellect, a person always, always with a passionate pursuit outside of work and family. Etc.) and the simple intellectual skill to not fuck it up. I work on my marriage now, but it is more effortless now that I see the dynamics involved. And I’m not afraid to take risks. And I’m not so afraid to lose it all to take significant risks. With my wife being +3 in SMV to me, but me being + 1 in MMV to her, it is still very much working for me.

    I’m here not for Schadenfreude, but to read Rollo’s essays and see how they can benefit me in the marriage department. The more I pursue red-pill awareness, the more I make myself a better husband, father and man.

    I was in a blue pill fog for about 10 years of marriage and was not gaining ground on the “she loves me, but is not in love with me” front. I kicked my efforts into high gear last year after several acquaintance’s marriage were failing after years.

    Athol Kay’s Mindful Attraction Plan was my eye opener. I hit the gym, eliminated pushing red light “no-go” buttions on my wife, refused to let her push mine. I partially eliminated some of my more egregious vices and realized how important Roissy’s IVth commandment of poon was. I went all in with a Red Pill format to “make my wife feel better”, without reasoning with her. I did find that short doses of reason, without negotiating desire actually works in a long term marriage or a shorter relationship with trust.

    I experienced higher highs in the last two years, but also some crushing lows, but the trend is like a good stock chart: upward.

    If you want to participate in forums like this, the problem is that it is not your element. To perform best as a person seeking social interaction you have to choose your best environment and maximize your strengths. I am a veteran of online forums including some rough ones like Glocktalk and AR-15 forum.

    Guys here are rough, but I have a real thick skin and have a few ideas.

    Also you will get flack, simple because you are anomaly. (Implied in that statement when someone else here says it is that you got lucky, your husband got lucky, you were given this, etc. You and I know that is not true.

    No be proud that you are an anomaly and as such you have special insights. After all is is your skill that brought you here and allows you to be in a good position. Don’t be afraid to engaged in discussion, but don’t be surprised at the friction. It is what it is. Do it to make you, your husband and your children better. Let yourself roam, have fun, learn about interpersonal relationships.

    “If the manosphere cannot even recognize when there are women who want to support it, encourage it, and use it’s truths to comparatively teach young women how to be better women (for MEN!), then they are going to lose a lot of women by their nihilism. It’s seriously draining and depressing… and I’d be lying if I said it didn’t make me want to give up.”

    Equalist Feminism is making a Puerarchy. You are right, if men can’t discriminate the few good woman and commit, they are destined to lose a good woman and a potential long term relationship.

    @47 Ronin
    April 17th, 2015 at 1:15 pm

    I was the second of four boys with no sisters. And we were each two years apart. You got some work cut out for you. We grew as teenagers in the seventies. It was certainly simpler back then and Fem-centric society was not in place where I grew up until the 80’s and 90’s. My daughter is 23 and my son is 20.

    Jack Donovan’s “The Way of Men” book is an excellent manosphere resource for you future mindset in raising boys/men.

  61. PS. Dragonfly, I live in a community of couples that are universally married and happy (NO B.S no more than a 1 in 18 divorce rate in their 40’s and fifties). Life goes on and most don’t have time to whine.

  62. “”…There will be a contingent of men who’ll insist women be held accountable…this belief is still rooted in the idea that women are coequal…an equalist mindset…That’s not to say women shouldn’t be held accountable…Hypergamy is not itself an excuse…””

    are you not at war with yourself? not accountable, but accountable? i’ll agree to this sentiment only due to it referencing the group, for at the group level, yes, women-group shouldn’t be charged, not as a whole, despite nawalt. appeal to group-level ambiguity to avoid responsibility charged to the worst individual actresses, nicely maneuvered. i’m sure many will agree, one way or another.

    but on the individual level, no, a woman, who is so self-centeredly selfish must be “held accountable” (i.e. given nothing), not because of equality, but because there is no other way. the reason is simply because such vampiric selfishness is a choice, equality or inequality need not enter the equation. and for that choice to choose fantasy feminist empowerment entitlement -over- reality, over men family and life itself, a woman must be given nothing. to depart from this rule is to throw sons into a black hole as if filling it will somehow magically not result in failure. as if filling it is even possible at all! no, it can’t be done. even those that have millions can’t pull it off.

    trying to say that terrible toddler children shouldn’t be held accountable is only valid by ambiguity, for on the individual level, there is no other way. equality or inequality is irrelevant; selfish choice to depart reality is what is relevant, and it is a choice all of reality, if paid by men into black-hole nothingness, still cannot unchoose.

    trying to chose both not accountable and accountable, is still expecting magic at some point. but magic doesn’t exist.

  63. sjfrellc

    Dermatology 🙂 how awesome. Anomaly or not, it’s like I can’t stop writing about relationship factors that interest me… and meeting each other’s needs is just interesting.

    I know Rollo agrees that men need sex. It’s not that they need it to survive, they can live without it, but living for prolonged periods of time (like incels) is painful and emotionally/psychologically (I think at least) destructive. Maybe not always. But I do think that men “need” sex in the way that they desire it in their marriage relationship. It is a “need” because it is vital to a healthy marriage.

    That’s what I think about the sympathy/empathy that men need – they can get along without it, sure… but if they’re married to a woman that has a LACK of understanding or sympathy/empathy, you can bet their relationship is anything but healthy.

    So I got my bachelor degree in biology (you probably did too, right, Dermatologist 😉 ), and as you know, the body needs essential vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids, etc. Many things that the body can SURVIVE without (just like a man can technically survive without sex), however, the body will not function correctly or even healthily without the essential minerals that it needs.

    I guess that’s what I meant by saying men “need” sympathy. A woman who can’t or won’t try to understand her man, give him sympathy and empathy is not capable of having a mature, healthy marriage.

    Oh, and Rollo, I emailed you at your eldanes account… I know you’re busy… just wanted to ask you something!!!

  64. To further my point… the body can survive without the things it needs like vitamins, essential fatty acids, minerals, etc. but it will operate **malnourished. **

    So a relationship without the basic needs being met can “technically survive,” but it will be an unfulfilled, “malnourished” relationship.

  65. Dragonfly,

    As I read your April 19th, 8:16 PM note, I would get rid of the smilies. I would also get rid of the quotes around the word need. Quotes around need implies a lack of genuine-ness. Skip the quotes. My female dermatologist partner used to always use a multitude of “….” quotes for mundane normal historical iterations of patients. I always wondered why all the quotes. I figured either the quoted text wasn’t believable, she wanted an out or was afraid to just say it like it is. Putting it like men “need” sex is wrong. Men need sex. No quotes. They do.

    Sex is a hind-brain need for men. Men need sex. If their wives don’t want to give it. Then that is a problem.

    Rollo got it right when he ended the Admiration and Respect Essay with:

    “Lastly, ladies, the best compliment you can give a man is with your body and consideration. Unexpected gestures, being an imaginative lover, staying in shape because you want to please a man, are the best expressions of genuine desire, admiration and respect. Nothing conveys real appreciation for a man better than the unsolicited desire you reserve for Alpha Fucks. You want him to know you admire and respect him? Initiate sex with him, often and with intensity.”

    Your initiative for Rollo to write on Admiration and Respect in my opinion hinges on your true, real insight into the above quote. You admire and respect your husband. And want to give him unsolicited desire reserved for an Alpha Male. You Ma’am are are a Rare Breed. Keep it up.

  66. “his woman should have his needs and his best interests in mind in a like fashion that he has for her; this is not and has never been the case.

    In fact it’s a recipe for failure, since it puts men into a position of neediness, and thus forces him to negotiate for his woman’s desire.”

    Its possible to train women that your needs come first. I’ve only recently started doing this but small things here and there where you are leading the girl to doing something you want them to.. going to your favorite spot for lunch, going to a bar with the game on, helping you out with certain tasks, providing me with moral support in my weightlifting goals.

    Now isn’t that applicable to a mans larger vision.. my perfect job, house, travel to places I’d want to visit, achieving my goals. Can this same reasoning not be applied on a larger scale?

    Appreciate your thoughts.

  67. It is certainly possible to “train” (heh, I used quotes, which weakens the sentiment) women that your needs come first. But that is you paddling upstream. I’ve kayaked up stream and I have kayaked down stream. Down stream is better.

    You can travel up-stream for so long and then it becomes tiring.

    Training women is tantamount to traveling up-stream.

    Better to to demonstrate, not explicate and have them along for the ride.

    I see the problem with your question being in short term vs. long term.

    I also foresee the weariness that a 28 year old woman has with a male who fails in the next 25 years after the 15 year mark.

    You see what I did there.

  68. “Men will always be the risk takers in all aspects of life.”

    Going to have to disagree on that one. Women today (and even more in the past) take enormous risk with regards to having children. This heightened risk probably plays no small role in hypergamy itself.

  69. Terrific observations and a provocative proposal to the problem. The Red Pill is a tough one to swallow. But like everyone else here, I’d rather know the truth than be consumed by it. Superb. I’ll chip in later on this one. Tks.

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