Managing Expectations

expectations

One question I was asked during the Christian McQueen interview was what my perspective on a “healthy” kind of love would look like. Anyone familiar with my writing understands that, to the best of my objectivity, I try to be as descriptive as I can when it comes to the dynamics I analyze. The Rational Male will always be an endeavor in descriptiveness, not prescribing what I think anyone ought to be doing. I’ve run down my reasons for this in the past, but the solutions to your problems begin with your understanding the nature of those problems. I’ll give you tools, observations and suggestions, but my hope is you’ll use them in your life according to your need.

As I said in the interview, my interest isn’t in making Rollo Tomassi clones, and anyone telling you they have a customized plan to lead you to the relationship of your dreams is selling you something (likely a $1200/month ‘counseling’ retainer). That said, I’m going to break protocol here for a moment and see if I can provide you with some general observation about what I believe are the foundations of a heathy love relationship.

From a Red Pill perspective I’d say the first and most important thing for a man to grasp is coming to terms with realistic expectations with women based in Red Pill awareness.

In a Blue Pill paradigm men are conditioned to believe that Blue Pill goals are both attainable and worthwhile in the effort needed to achieve them. Deferring to feminine primacy, deffering to feminine correctness and essentially enabling and facilitating the ends of women’s sexual strategy are all the hallmarks of that conditioned thinking.

In Mental Point of Origin I explain how a man’s origin of thought is conditioned to default to a feminine purpose; he puts his first thought to the benefit of the feminine rather than himself and it takes either a very traumatic personal episode or a Red Pill awakening for a man to realize how thorough his conditioning has been.

I’m reviewing this Blue Pill mindset because the expectations a man has of a woman while he’s trapped in that mindset is radically different when he moves into (and accepts) a Red Pill awareness. That may seem a bit remedial for Red Pill men now, but it’s important to be reminded of how much your expectations of women have shifted since you came into that new awareness.

There was a time when you were Blue Pill and not taking a woman seriously at her word – as opposed to understanding the primary importance of her actions – was probably offensive to you. Any White Knight you encounter in life is still basing his expectations of women in that same egalitarian equalist premise that women are rational agents with an equal interest in men’s goals and purpose. The mistake being that they put faith in the idea that men and women have intellectually risen above the influences of their evolved psychology and can be relied upon to behave reasonably and in each other’s best interests.

Ironically a Beta /White Knight’s methodology for qualifying for women’s intimate attentions are still rooted in performing to the standards of what he believes is a pre-understood social contract between men and women. However, his expectations of women and how they’ll reciprocate his feminine-identifying efforts is where he’s gravely in error.

It’s my belief that Red Pill men need to come to realistic expectations of women based on their Red Pill awareness in order to come to a loving relationship with women. Accepting that reality also means accepting the differing concepts men and women have with regard to love. That’s a very tall order for men still coming to terms with the fact that their Blue Pill conditioning made them hopeful they could sustain a love based on Blue Pill expectations of women. Their idealistic concept of love has an end-goal of that concept being mutually reciprocated by a woman; this is the Blue Pill hope for love.

Love in the Age of Equalism

Egalitarian equalism between the sexes is nominally based on an acceptance of agreed terms, but love, like desire, is not the result of a process of negotiation.

What’s more ironic is that the more pronounced the efforts in gender parity are in society the more pronounced the men and women in that society cling to traditional sex differences:

To the contrary, most cross-cultural studies find nations with the highest sociopolitical gender equality (e.g., Scandinavian nations) exhibit the largest psychological sex differences in the world. You read that correctly. Higher gender egalitarian nations tend to have larger sex differences in mate preferences for Good Looks, in Big Five personality traits and the Dark Triad traits of Machiavellianism, Narcissism, and psychopathy; in romantic attachment and love styles; in sociopolitical attitudes and personal values; in clinical depression rates and crying behavior; in tested cognitive and mental abilities; and in physical attributes such as height and blood pressure[97]. If sociopolitical gender egalitarianism is supposed to reduce sex differences to the point where they “disappear,” it’s doing a terrible job. In fact, it’s most often doing the exact opposite. Without the constraints of patriarchal sex role socialization, it appears men and women are freer to follow their evolved desires in ways that lead to even greater psychological difference

It’s important to recognize truths like this because our acculturation in an equalist doctrine of gender parity is often never considered with regard to how the sexes interpret a loving relationship. How a society perceives love on a meta level is greatly influenced by the degree to which that society considers and acknowledges sex differences. I’ve stated in the past that androgyny is not a goal-state for any species – it leads to stagnation and an inability to adapt. Androgyny becomes homogeny; an evolutionary dead end, and the statistics seem to back this up. When a society idealizes a state of homogeny between the sexes that society presumes love is also homogenous.

Play with her, and play with her

I’ve mentioned in the past that revealing Red Pill truths to women you want to become intimate with is ultimately a self-defeating effort. The same can be said for women you may be involved with at the moment and are attempting to convince of your new Red Pill identity. Once you let a woman in on the Game it changes the game. Observing a process will change that process. This is known as the observer-expectancy effect, or the Hawthorne effect which is a “form of reactivity in which subjects modify an aspect of their behavior, in response to their knowing that they are being studied.”

In my perspective this is the main reason couples’ therapy, marriage counseling and Purple Pill couples’ coaching is ineffective. Those negotiations that are supposed to lead to a better relationship and a “healthy” love are founded on Blue Pill goals and Blue Pill expectations of an equalist understanding that men and women are fundamental equals with an equal interest in rational problem solving.

Why am I inserting this here? Because your Red Pill expectations of women must remain stoically within yourself.

Once your expectations of women are out in the open the process has changed. Women love Men who Just Get It, but explaining how you Get It disqualifies you from being the Man who does. Demonstrate, never explicate.

In a way I pity the women who identify themselves as Red Pill women. Not because I think their efforts are misplaced, but because they become privy to Red Pill truths and now have a different awareness of that observer-expectancy effect. The process is changed with regard to how they deal with men, maybe their husbands, and now they can no longer play the Game without some peripheral awareness that they are playing a game. The machinations of it are revealed so the context becomes one of identifying aspects of those truths and being self-conscious of men’s and their own behaviors being influenced by them.

In coming to terms with Red Pill expectations of women a man must embrace some ugly realities. Those realities that used to be denied or sugar coated with the pretty lies of the Blue Pill can rub you raw. Among others, Hypergamy, women’s sexual and love opportunism and the potential of damning a man to a life of indentured servitude are tough expectations to have to weigh against the idealistic want of a healthy loving relationship with a woman.

There will be a contingent of men who’ll insist women be held accountable for the worst of these behaviors. While I don’t necessarily disagree with that sentiment, there will always be a want for personal accountability and justice for women’s actions from men, however, this belief is still rooted in the idea that women are coequal and rational actors. That personal accountability desire is based in an equalist mindset. That’s not to say women shouldn’t be held accountable for the results of their impulses, or given license to them – Hypergamy is not itself an excuse for the worst of its consequences. Moreover, it is to say that a Red Pill aware man needs to base his expectations of women on the Red Pill foreknowledge of what her instincts and impulses will lead her to.

Conventional Love Model

I posted the following comment in response to Girl With a Dragonfly Tattoo’s recent plea for women to embrace empathy and / or sympathy:

Sympathy / Empathy flow downward from men to women and then to children. Men who understand and accept this never expect empathy from women to begin with. For that man, either a woman meets his criteria for his investment or he drops her for a better prospect.

Only in a feminized equalist society do men expect in-kind reciprocation from women. As a man, your “needs” are only important to you. Men’s disappointment comes from expecting a balanced return on his emotional investment and relational equity; this is the result of his egalitarian equalist conditioning. It sucks and it’s offensive to men because they’ve believed for most of their lives that there should be an equitable exchange of emotional and personal investments – his woman should have his needs and his best interests in mind in a like fashion that he has for her; this is not and has never been the case.

In fact it’s a recipe for failure, since it puts men into a position of neediness, and thus forces him to negotiate for his woman’s desire.

I’ve made an attempt in today’s post to address this last part. A great deal of men’s frustrations with women finds its root in an equalist expectation of a like-for-like exchange of intimacy. In A New Hope I explained how a man might cast off his former hope for a Blue Pill solution to the problems inherently created by an egalitarian mindset. I think it’s vitally important for men to keep that in mind – the source of those problems offers the false hope of a solution to those problems.

As a man it is important to understand that love will always, necessarily, be an unequal exchange of sacrifice for a woman. You simply don’t share the same concept of love with a woman. There are complementary benefits, but never assume your investment with a woman will be an equitable tradeoff. Men weren’t designed for that, this is why notions of relational equity is a real tough ego-investment for a man to abandon when he comes to Red Pill awareness.

In closing, what I find interesting in all of this was recalling how my Vulnerability post was received. That was an important post because it described the expectation of submissiveness and surrender that the Feminine Imperative and egalitarian equalism inculcate in men. Even the definition of the word was recreated to fit the doctrine – weakness is strength – and more than a few critics still clinging to that Blue Pill boilerplate wanted to re-redefine it in some way to be palatable to both the manosphere and that old Blue Pill hope. That’s the essence of the Purple Pill.

What they fail to realize is the inherent vulnerability men face in loving a woman at all. All risk, with no realistic expectation of reciprocation of his emotional investment and even greater risk of rejection for expressing that expectation – now that’s vulnerability. Egalitarian equalism always stresses the importance of men and women meeting each other’s needs to achieve a balanced loving relationship. This is a fundamentally flawed premise in the context of feminine social primacy. In a Blue Pill paradigm a man’s needs are always subordinate to a woman’s. That is vulnerability – a man putting faith in the presumption that a woman’s sustained long-term interests will ultimately serve his own.

Men will always be the risk takers in all aspects of life.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Chump No More
Chump No More
7 years ago

The “Her husband doesn’t deserve her…” comment is nothing but hamster speak for a massively failed shit test and catastrophic DLV.

Until he stumbles upon TRM, in a moment of ‘quiet desperation’, the poor bastard will never know why he has a contemptuous harpy for a wife and has been relegated to a miserable life of only ‘baby making’ sex.

Been there, done that… never fucking again!

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago
Reply to  Chump No More

@Thoroughbred
Your post was an amazing insight on the beauty of the burden of performance for one self. That’s a wonderful way to look at it but
@Isthisthingon
Has a good point about farthers as well. My dad wasn’t a dad he was my mothers emotional tampoon. This made it hard to get any sense of balance.
@Thoroughbred
One thing that you pointed out that I am learning and really am not good at is focusing on myself first.

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@Thoroughbred

That’s a great overview of the correct perspective a man should have. Of course, we still have to remember that a woman’s “love” is highly conditional. Her motives are similar to a banker’s…she will offer you succor and aid when you need it the least and withdraw it when you need it most.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Hobbes Guys come to Game to get laid, because they are having problems. they get advice- Game/workout/be successful, do what women like etc etc. All cool. But then comes the rationalization that we aren’t doing it because women like it. Sounds like bullshit to me. You know that’s what you’re doing it for. I know pretty much all of us came here seeking exactly what you’re saying, however the end goal (for me at least and for those who actually succeed) is to change the mental point of origin no matter how long it takes. What you’re describing is your… Read more »

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@Thoroughbred You wrote: “Lose your children, assets and the better part of your productive life – stiff shit, don’t let it get to you.” — Yep. Exactly right… Don’t let it get to you. Think of how you’d live passionately in that alternative reality. I read a great post somewhere from a married man (may have been here) who was contemplating what life would be like if he lost his big house, his assets, his wife and his kids. His answer: “I’d buy a truck and a silver AirStream camper and travel the U.S. the remainder of my days. Stop… Read more »

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@hobbes
Culture matters tremendously. The divorce rate in India is less than 4 percent and I bet it is similar in many patriarchal cultures. Roosh and others have talked about how women behave pre and post exposure to western culture. Read Roosh’s tragic account of changes in Poland to understand how corrosive western culture is.
I’ve made radical changes to my career plans so that I can become marketable in Asia.
I’m not Neo. I can’t dodge all the bullets the matriarchy is firing at me 🙂

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

@Tom
Good point
@Sun Wukong
That was fucking beautiful

Is This Thing On?
Is This Thing On?
7 years ago

I don’t think marriage today has anything to do with what marriage used to be, in that the state is now involved. Marriage used to be a public commitment to each other that would be enforced by social pressure and religious belief. Now, both of those forces have essentially been removed and replaced with enforcement by the state. Anyone that thinks they need to get married to have a family based on religious reasons should take this into account. I’m pretty sure what ever god you pray to never intended for you to enter into a binding contract with an… Read more »

Fred Flange, Mansplainer
Fred Flange, Mansplainer
7 years ago

For the record I am not Thoroughbred, though I could play him on TV. THAT is the attitude you need to internalize to get through the Adventure. Co-sign with Sun’s take on it too. As for those fearful of losing the kids, I can’t speak to that myself, but the stragety (to quote the former W.) stays the same, I should think. Fatherlessness sucks donkey balls but in today’s society it’s What’s For Dinner. You can woulda coulda shoulda yourself to a soulless hulk and eat the bullet. Or realize you can’t control everything, know what happened was imposed from… Read more »

LSCS
LSCS
7 years ago

@Dragonfly: “ I… my… I’ve…I… “ right in the middle of a men’s discussion about conditions, tactics and philosophy. You add ZERO to the conversation other than your predictable solipsism. Do us all a favor and follow Glenn’s advice and be silent.

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Sun- You haven’t made the complete transition because it is bullshit. Let me give you an example- if a woman were to tell you she was going to remove all hypergamy from herself would you buy it? Of course she can behave differently, of course she can make different choices etc, but in the end, the limbic/genetic drive is and always will be there. Similar with men. Your dna/genetic makeup is designed to make everything a reaction to sexual pressure.. one way or another. Being your own frame of reference is a reaction as well to past sexual/emotional experiences and… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@LSCS- thanks you. I was going to write something about that but felt I was already writing too much. You said it better than I would have in a fraction of the words!

Dragonfly
7 years ago

LOL LSCS, Rollo mentions my posts in his own posts, links to my posts… you might as well be telling him to be silent.

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@All – If I was to try and call out all the good stuff on this thread it would take too long, suffice it to say that it’s pretty fucking real. @SunWu – You are my new hero. I was on the same bead for several months late last year. I just got super busy with my life, and it was due to cultivating me as my mental point of origin. But lately, well, I’m a bit all over the place and my life is seeing those results too, grrr. Without lapsing into self pity (that’s what’s been killing me… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Hobbes You haven’t made the complete transition because it is bullshit. Stop talking like the other crabs in the bucket. You’re just rationalizing your own failure by trying to drag me in to it with you. Fuck right off with that; I won’t be part of your wallowing in your own inability to change. Isn’t it amazing how all those things men aren’t doing for women are exactly the things women want? What a shocking coincidence. If you lacked a desire to get laid completely, would you still do a thing? To all the things I’m doing right now, I… Read more »

Glenn
Glenn
7 years ago

@Dragonfly – Yikes, it’s gotten rough over here, hasn’t it? I have to be honest and responsible. I’m super-fucking pissed about all of this in ways that have nothing to do with you. It’s not too much to say I believe that in very real ways, it’s ruined my life and this is the only place on earth that I can even really talk about it in a righteous way. There is no space where I can express my grief and hurt and anger about how all of this played out in my life. Even more to the point –… Read more »

Thoroughbred
Thoroughbred
7 years ago

“It’s like quitting an addiction. Any shrink will tell you that the addict will not succeed in quitting if their motivation for doing so comes from outside.”

Solid analogy…

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

I’m a little taken aback by the nihilism, skepticism, negativity, cynicism, and pessimism that is expressed by the Red Baron, Divided Line, Badpainter, Seven Dials (does one of your dials go to eleven?), Johnycomelately, Tom. Reminds me of Delta houses’ dejection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE So it’s hard. Adventure brings on unforeseen possible pitfalls, injuries to mind and body, but is required of men who need to fulfill their true nature of accomplishment. Sure you could sit in the basement and wallow in your beer. But you can also get off your ass and make yourself better and lead a relationship with a… Read more »

Dragonfly
7 years ago

Stingray, I’ll email you the exchange – I think you’d approve; I don’t know if I’m going to post it because she was coming to me for help (in a fairly condescending-you’re- too- young -to -know- what -you’re -saying-way, but still, she honestly wanted to know what I thought), and it seems mean to just write her off if there’s a chance she might listen.

I believe women can change if they really want to… but we’ll see if she accepts my response or not.

Dragonfly
7 years ago

Glenn don’t worry about it.

Stingray
7 years ago

because she was coming to me for help

Well, that’s a bit different then. I thought you received one of those hate emails.

Still, asking for help with the phrase, “He doesn’t deserve her desire, etc” . . . One wonders how much help she actually wants. I’m not surprised she’s annoyed with your site though. You’re happy.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Dragonfly She didn’t want your help. She wanted to berate you under the guise of asking for help so you’d read it. Whether she actually knows she needs your help is unclear. @Glenn You are my new hero. I thought I was always your hero. 😉 In all seriousness, I largely get where you are. Truly an existential crisis when one realizes “I never imagined myself here.” I never imagined at 18 that at 38 I would have spent my life so unlovable as to never have even been married. I never imagined I’d be living in the fattest, most… Read more »

Richard
Richard
7 years ago

Any long term relationship is this day and age is utterly flawed. 1.) Inviting a woman into your life, means losing privacy by default as she will gossip and bitch her personal life (which is also now your personal life) to any and every female she comes across. This denies you the opportunity to make and correct mistakes as you roll. IE. your growth is now under the microscope and largely frozen. 2.) She needs constant attention, far more attention than is reasonable for a man to provide, without massively inhibiting his own activities. Of course in the honeymoon year… Read more »

kfg
kfg
7 years ago

” . . . every gym and place of employment would be empty, and none of these “I do it for me” guys would take one step into a gym.”

I train alone and take care of my own business.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

@ Glenn. “As an aside here, I’m curious how many people can hear my lament here and not want to tell me to shut the fuck up? There is nothing less interesting to most people than the sadness of an old man in our society, and boy, am I starting to feel that.” “As I said earlier, there are limits to the joy gained from chasing cash and pussy. I feel like my life used to be bigger, that I was up to something worthy and respectable. Now I’m just an old lech trying to bed as many 20somethings as… Read more »

Chester
Chester
7 years ago

A special thanks to Hobbes and Gregg for putting my thoughts into words. The position in which some commenters here are in, by virtue of being married or having children prevents them from facing some facets of the truth. It’s up to each and every one to do what makes them happy but please don’t lie to us and bullshit us. You are not fooling me, you’re just trying hard to convince yourselves of the lies you need to believe in for you reality not to collapse. I can see that some measure of self deception is necessary for you… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Wow, Richard and Chester. Two more nihilists added to the list. Haven’t seen this much negativism in a while. How’s that working out for you?

Are you here to learn? To educate us? Me?Or here to whine? There is more to life than nihilism.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago
Reply to  sjfrellc

@sjfrellc First off thanks for letting me learn from your post. To everyone here male or female I went back to a place I used to work at and all the males turned an me for trying to charge my phone while seening this film https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2lj3g2lmZzc Has anyone here may sound retorical ha to deal with males shaming other males for just asking for something? Not sure what made it so pronoticed but I fell in a trance of people I knew where in a system that hated every part of me. They knew me by name becaus I use… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

@ sjfrelic

And what would you have us nihilists, skeptics, cynics and pessimists believe in?

I’m not trying to bait you but genuinely curious.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Badpainter, We all suffer from solipsism when commenting online. It is a ripe medium for that. I’m solipsistic in my thoughts. It is not a weakness. It is my frame and you can take it or leave it. But by the same token, don’t tell me I’m not happy and satisfied with long term marriage, or that I am tired of fucking the same attractive female for > 2.5 decades. Because it is not true. I believe you should take your strengths and maximize them. Minimize your weaknesses. Be a better man. I spent every stage of my life from… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

I ask you. If you were in a post apocalyptic world. What would you do? Who you you group up with? Would you ditch your girlfriend or wife or kids? Would you give up? Would you fight. Could you form an adequate gang of worthy men to hang with? Would you lay down and die? Would you suddenly realize there is a value of strength, courage, mastery and honor in a gang of men, protecting the women that affiliate with them (the ones that are worth it? the ones’ that show you admiration and respect?) Why would you suddenly be… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Sun- “Fuck right off with that; I won’t be part of your wallowing in your own inability to change.” Your points would be valid of I was either wallowing or not changing my life for the better. I’ve got a teaching gig at a college and am now a professor, all while I am getting straight A’s in school towards a new career I’ve always wanted, I go to work full time, teach part time and am a full time student credit load. 4.0 grade point average. I train 4 days a weeks as well… and I am happier than… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Rugby, Shit tests by males in a group are seriously more authentic than women shit testing males. Men need to vet males in a group to see if the are worthy of defending the tribe and being good enough for the team. If men don’t shit test other men, the group can’t decide who should join the group (ref. the post apocalypse: do you wan’t an incompetent pussy to join your group? No?, vet those who want to join your group and don’t include the weak males. They are not worth it.) Women shit test men to see if they… Read more »

Lucien
Lucien
7 years ago

Just this past week, on a business trip and practicing a little game I tugged on a hot little #’s ponytail (thanks Heartiste!) that I’d been joking and flirting with at the bar and she turned to me, pressed her hot body up against me and whispered in my ear “You only get to do that if you’re fucking me from behind.” . . . Hooooly shit that’s awesome. By God, I think that’s what successful flirtation looks like . . . I miss hearing girls say shit like that. Fuck, maybe I need to get back out there. By… Read more »

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@Glenn
It is the Philippines for you, my friend! Old..broke..divorced..all is forgiven if you are white and have a social security check.

trackback

[…] RolloTomassi who wrote the “Rational Male,” yet another red pill fan, has a post today called “Managing Expectations” where he ends by declaring “Men will always be the risk takers in all aspects of life.” Tomassi is right about a few things, but many other times he just gets caught up in gender politics and cannot even seem to perceive the world through any eyes but his own. […]

Lucien
Lucien
7 years ago

” if tomorrow HB9 s and 10s suddenly developed an overwhelming wetness and desire to marry and stay faithful to out of shape broke men.. every gym and place of employment would be empty, and none of these “I do it for me” guys would take one step into a gym. We all know it.” Goddamn this is stupid. Look, that’s part of what’s good about it. But frankly, as people have pointed out, chicks don’t even like muscle all that much. I mean there’s a certain level, but a lot of dudes work out past that level. Why? Because… Read more »

Lucien
Lucien
7 years ago

As for whether this is symmetrical to women claiming they need men like a fish needs a bicycle . . . I totally agree that it won’t do to pretend that we don’t deeply, deeply desire women, to the point that it’s a need—a sexual need. But, fuck, you don’t spend all day ruminating about your need to eat. It only comes into play when you’re starving. In this day and age, at least, that’s an unnatural condition when it comes to food. I can’t say whether most men ever, or men today, are doomed mostly to starve when it… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Lucien- Christ another person who needs to read more into what I wrote to have a straw man to attack. I never denied that men do things because they are inherently worthy of doing in and of themselves. Life is full of those things. What YOU are denying is that men are primarily and biologically designed to compete and be motivated to behave in ways that are influenced by female selection. If you can not admit to that, if you can not admit that men kill themselves, and always have, for a chance to get laid, to fall in love,… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

Sjfrelic – “I ask you. If you were in a post apocalyptic world…” My gut instinct is to ask for more detail, but let’s assume I’m thrust into Cormack McCarthy’s The Road. I ‘d die trying to retain my humanity. The how of that may mean a very short existence.  Quitting life and remaining alive is never an option. But we do, short of doomsday scenarios, have the option to choose how we live. We do not have the ability to choose the constraints.  I was previously quite happy with blue pill world view. I wasn’t winning, but I figured… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Lucien- “It would be ridiculous for me to pretend that I don’t need a girl, given that I’m basically starving to death. Yet I have to really, effectively pretend to have just come from an endless buffet to have even a chance at scraps. That act is my only chance to eat. Of course, I am fucking horrendous at putting it on, because massive deception takes a lot of energy and doesn’t come naturally to me. Not a lot of upside here! I don’t really see any way out.” There. Thats it. Thats all I am saying. Here, in this… Read more »

Lucien
Lucien
7 years ago

@Hobbes

I hear you dude.

SUPERBETAVIRGIN
SUPERBETAVIRGIN
7 years ago

According to sjfrellc’s logic – if you don’t wanna play Russian roullette with 3/6 bullets in the chamber you are a nihilist. It is all about the adventure.. be brave and be a MAN.

Thank you for not indulging in tribalism, gynocentric shaming and naturalistic fallacies!

Tilikum
7 years ago

@badpainter “I ‘d die trying to retain my humanity.” What a waste of a perfectly good life dude. Your “humanity” is a construct of your mind and the fiction of your ego. You sound so…conquered? I suspect conditioning but then I see you post here and I wonder why you aren’t learning or if its just your fear that you will lose this “humanity” you have constructed in your mind that keeps you down. Push your boundaries, thrive. Otherwise the wiser among you will latch on to your melancholy and as one of the Masters below details, you will not… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

@ Tilikum

Context matters and apparently you haven’t read The Road.

Tilikum
7 years ago

@Badpainter Read, saw, comment stands. Take my comet test. Have a cup at Starbucks, wherever. Look around and play out the following: In one moment everyone is informed that a comet is headed for your location in 60 seconds and if you stand in one certain spot, one person in that coffee shop will live. Humanity is knowing without a doubt that you will and CAN slit the throat of ever man, woman, and child in that place to ensure your position. (the only caveat would be to ensure the position of your son ILO yourself). You play that game… Read more »

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@sjfrellc If somebody read my posts and found them cynical, I wouldn’t fault them. Many men on this site vent and express frustration with the current system. I have tried to temper my earlier posts with some (hopefully) constructive information. I personally don’t advocate nihilism as a solution for any man’s problem. However, it is imprudent to ignore the risks of marriage in the West. Even the highest SMV men face challenges today. Game and frame have little value in family court after all. As I’ve stated before, find a traditional wife or go to a place where marriage is… Read more »

Badpainter
Badpainter
7 years ago

@ Tilikum

You scenario presents me no obvious problem beyond the technical, but I draw the line at rounding up people for food. Eat the dead? Sure. Kill and eat my enemies. Sure. Start a people farm? Nope.

Which is why that generic post-apocalypse question needs more info. Everything short of The Road is allows for cooperative solutions.

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@SUPERBETAVIRGIN I think sjfrellc meant we should strive to be better men and stay positive (ie burden of performance). It is hard to believe anybody on this site thinks marriage in the west is a good deal for men.

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@Lucien Newton died a virgin and I’m kinda glad he did. Imagine if he were alive today spending every weekend trying to pick up slags…how much would humanity lose?

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@sjfrellc
If you don’t mind answering, did you and your wife sign a prenuptial agreement?

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Hobbes I bust my fucking ass, so, despite my love for you, fuck off with thinking I’m wallowing or trying to pull you down. Give me more credit than that. Those are strictly outward actions you’re talking about. Inwardly, you’re still stuck in a place that you’re handing me a list of rationalizations to stay in. This is the bucket I say you’re attempting to drag me in to by claiming the transition to a self focus is “bullshit”. It shows in how you’re willing to give the same “if chicks liked unhealthy guys tomorrow you’d start being unhealthy” weak-minded… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

It doesn’t work that way Tom. I had no wealth going into the marriage, so there was nothing to preserve prior to getting married. 1990 in the Midwest was a different ERA. “I thought it was a good thing to do at the time”, turned out that I’m glad I did it. I picked what my mentor tells me is an anomaly. But give me credit. I’m a lot smarter than I look. And my intellect has been a source of a wellspring of reinvention. I don’t think marriage is a good deal in 2015, mainly because women to pick… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Sun- Now you are being deliberately obtuse to avoid my meaning, I see you can not address my real point- not that you cant work on yourself- never said that. Not that you can’t go through life without being a slave to pussy- I deliberately stated as much. This canard you are coming at me with not being at some level you have reached is just that- some imagining on your part. Notice I never, at any point had to attack anyone to make my point, the one you keep ignoring.. That men are evolved to want, desire, and be… Read more »

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago
Reply to  Hobbes

Going to sleep but I felt that before I go I was just thinking of trying to explain to to my farther about early self rejection in my upbringing caused serious harm. I learned about myself by admitting I am wrong more often than not. My darter is blue pill and I do love him. I am not sure if one thing I am deprive is shit test by males. I don’t have that and I would crave that more often than not. Just thinking about death for reason because some good male buddy’s aren’t around anymore. This comes close… Read more »

M Simon
7 years ago

Thoroughbred
April 16th, 2015 at 7:49 am

Oh. Yeah.

M Simon
7 years ago

sjfrellc April 17th, 2015 at 1:40 am Ah. The myth of the worthy woman. None of them are. What you want are good genes, brains, and the desire to have at least 3 or 4 children. Marriage is for children. If you don’t want kids there is no point in it. To stay married – for the children – maintain the interest of other women as Thoroughbred April 16th, 2015 at 7:49 am describes. Went out last week and had 4 women take an interest in me – in front of the wife. Keeps them on their toes when they… Read more »

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

A little inspiration and positivity for my brothers…

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

M Simon, My children @ 20 and 23 have good genes. Half of them from me, half from her. I’m intellectual, she is attractive and socially skilled. As a woman, she just Gets It. The best of both, different worlds. Good kids. I’m sure my life would be different if the third didn’t end in a miscarriage at three months. I never was that robust to have three or four kids. Things worked out for me just at where I thought is the sweet spot. Time flies. And things work out if you perform well. I never said any woman… Read more »

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Hobbes

Are you serious?

If I haven’t made that clear at this point, then you’re not paying attention.

There is no “canard” being used here, and there is no “denial” of biological reality. In fact, as I mentioned above it’s in being aware of your own biology being used against you that a man can turn his mental point of origin inwards. When you claim a man can’t do that, you’re advocating the PUA script of simply learning the monkey dance without changing the internals. You keep ignoring THAT central point I’ve made repeatedly.

Sun Wukong
Sun Wukong
7 years ago

@Hobbes

A side note: if I was living in complete denial of biological sexual impulses, then the place I would go from here is MGTOW. However, I don’t go that way. Why do you think that is?

Atticus
Atticus
7 years ago

@Glenn “At 52, with my daughter having been ruined for me by all of this shit, I now face old age alone. I have two sisters and a brother I’m close with, and some very good friends, but nonetheless, I’m alone. 30s-40s, lots of fun, running around skiing and rock climbing and sailboat racing and the south of France, now? All I think about is stuffing enough away so I don’t eat catfood in retirement.” I feel for you brother. We’re the same age and although my kids aren’t ruined for me and I still have them with me half… Read more »

Hobbes
Hobbes
7 years ago

@Sun- I get what you are saying- I am just disagreeing with it. I don’t think becoming your own frame of reference and changing your internal frame has anything to do with pretending that you an kill, or even that it is beneficial, to kill of his natural internal drives/desires. I listened to Rollos interview and the part where he spoke of his wife and family. I didn’t hear Rollo saying, like the comment that I was responding to that started this whole debate, that he “didn’t give a fuck” about what his wife thought, etc. He sounded to me… Read more »

447
447
7 years ago

“changing your internal frame has anything to do with pretending that you an kill, or even that it is beneficial, to kill of his natural internal drives/desires.” _____________________ I disagree. Although I don’t share Sun’s history and certainly had to go through a lot less…the *unmodified, baseline* behaviour of men is to treat women well. There is no denying that. Now look at this vector: Recognizing this behaviour let me avoid/break off LJBF and advance at work. Reducing this behaviour got me laid with HB5s, MILFs and other easy targets – with spectacular sex. Damaging this behaviour got me a… Read more »

imnobody00
7 years ago

@Glenn 4:50 pm I remember trying to explain it to some woman I was dating once, I think she was trying to size me up for marriage material, and I don’t know, I just snapped and decided to be real with her, and I told her how it was. “Well, here’s the thing, if we got married and had more children, what’s to stop you from one day just changing your mind, and I lose another family?” […] she didsn’t say anything as she – like most women – considered that ability to scrape off an unwanted husband, but keeping… Read more »

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@sjfrellc As you’ve stated, you are from a different era. How much experience do you have dealing with women of today? Dating today’s women? I’ve seen the lives of countless upper middle-class couples up close (including my own). Your experience is not the norm. I’m glad I didn’t marry at 30. As I accumulate assets, I realize how valuable the combination of money and freedom are. Barring an act of god, I will be able to retire by my mid-40s. This is the best path for a professional man today. For men in my situation, a pre nup is an… Read more »

47 Ronin
47 Ronin
7 years ago

I stumbled onto this site courtesy of the Chateau and have been devouring its content for a few months now. First comment incoming… When I was of the marrying age, I believed I never wanted a daughter, primarily because of my overprotective nature. Dad was a nationally ranked collegiate wrestler around 6’3″ and mom was a beauty queen. My siblings and I were blessed with genes. As a result, I became a bit of brawler through junior high and high school protecting my sister from cads. I assumed any daughter I had would remain in my home until my passing.… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Tom, “As you’ve stated, you are from a different era. How much experience do you have dealing with women of today? Dating today’s women? I’ve seen the lives of countless upper middle-class couples up close (including my own). Your experience is not the norm.” I’ll accept that it is not the norm. I don’t date today’s women. I do know the lack of quality friends and associates experience. Thing is I interact with a lot of women on a day to day basis. I employ eight women. No men. I am a physician and see certainly need to “deal” with… Read more »

Vulpine
Vulpine
7 years ago

@Glenn (& Tom) I’ve brought up “prenup” with 5 women I’ve been with who have asked the “When are we getting married?” questions. Without fail, each flew off the handle into a tirade, and each began with a version of “If you loved me….!” I’d let them rant and make their points against. Then, I would begin my counter-points. Mine started off with: “Well, if YOU loved ME…” Continued with: “…this would be a non-issue.” and concluded simply with: “I’d never actually get a pre-nup, as they don’t work. However, your freak-out, and your preservation of an “out” should we… Read more »

Vulpine
Vulpine
7 years ago

@47 Ronin

Welcome, and thanks for helping to create a healthier generation to succeed us.

greginaurora
7 years ago
Reply to  Vulpine

@Vulpine: “the church show, the reception, the honeymoon… but they never signed the marriage license. So, we’ve considered something along those lines: do the dance, make everyone happy and give them the show they want to see, but not submit to the laws we don’t agree with, and retain our legal independence from each other. That is, marry spiritually, but not legally.” Here in Colorado, if you live together and refer to each other publicly as “husband and wife”, then you have a Common Law Marriage, which is legally binding. No license required. To avoid it, call her your Woman,… Read more »

Vulpine
Vulpine
7 years ago

We don’t typically use those dirty words against each other. If I call her “wife”, she understands that I’m insinuating that she’s being a bitch.

Funny thing about her native language, man and husband are the same word: “Man”.

…which goes a long way to explain why she has any value to me in the first place.

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

@Vulpine
Spiritual marriage in a state without palimony and common law marriage is best. You can manage a woman with game but not the state :).

Jeremy
7 years ago

@DeNihilist

I was a fan of XKCD for years, until I found SMBC:

http://rodguildsite.proboards.com/thread/250
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3587
http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3708

It’s as close to far-side good as I’ve seen yet.

Jeremy
7 years ago
Dragonfly
7 years ago

@sjfrellc “My marriage is fine. I got married 25 years ago when I thought it was a good idea. She has fine genes and a good brain. If I dropped her in marriage she would be laid like tile about two seconds after I exited. I have a great capacity to not have one-itis (always had that inborn instinct). She could leave me and I would be ok, but I have not encountered another that is as much worth in a high functioning society (1 out of 18 divorce rate, high income, no-one lacking economically) around me. Why would you… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Dragonfly, You are simply seeing detection bias in your survey of the manosphere. I just took my Dermatology recertification boards (third time after every ten years) last week and there was a question: Match the type of bias: Patients who see dermatologists are more likely than patients who see primary care physicians to have the diagnosis of seborrheic keratosis in their medical records. The correct answer was detection bias. The people in the comments section here are a slice of men that have endured pain and heartache. Most are not through the Kubler-Ross stages of loss. You can see it… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

PS. Dragonfly, I live in a community of couples that are universally married and happy (NO B.S no more than a 1 in 18 divorce rate in their 40’s and fifties). Life goes on and most don’t have time to whine.

rugby11ljh
rugby11ljh
7 years ago
Reply to  sjfrellc

@47 Ronin
Thanks for being a loving farther

tempus.fugit
tempus.fugit
7 years ago

“”…There will be a contingent of men who’ll insist women be held accountable…this belief is still rooted in the idea that women are coequal…an equalist mindset…That’s not to say women shouldn’t be held accountable…Hypergamy is not itself an excuse…”” are you not at war with yourself? not accountable, but accountable? i’ll agree to this sentiment only due to it referencing the group, for at the group level, yes, women-group shouldn’t be charged, not as a whole, despite nawalt. appeal to group-level ambiguity to avoid responsibility charged to the worst individual actresses, nicely maneuvered. i’m sure many will agree, one way… Read more »

Dragonfly
7 years ago

sjfrellc Dermatology 🙂 how awesome. Anomaly or not, it’s like I can’t stop writing about relationship factors that interest me… and meeting each other’s needs is just interesting. I know Rollo agrees that men need sex. It’s not that they need it to survive, they can live without it, but living for prolonged periods of time (like incels) is painful and emotionally/psychologically (I think at least) destructive. Maybe not always. But I do think that men “need” sex in the way that they desire it in their marriage relationship. It is a “need” because it is vital to a healthy… Read more »

Dragonfly
7 years ago
Reply to  Rollo Tomassi

Oh…. Ok thank you!

Dragonfly
7 years ago

To further my point… the body can survive without the things it needs like vitamins, essential fatty acids, minerals, etc. but it will operate **malnourished. **

So a relationship without the basic needs being met can “technically survive,” but it will be an unfulfilled, “malnourished” relationship.

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

Dragonfly, As I read your April 19th, 8:16 PM note, I would get rid of the smilies. I would also get rid of the quotes around the word need. Quotes around need implies a lack of genuine-ness. Skip the quotes. My female dermatologist partner used to always use a multitude of “….” quotes for mundane normal historical iterations of patients. I always wondered why all the quotes. I figured either the quoted text wasn’t believable, she wanted an out or was afraid to just say it like it is. Putting it like men “need” sex is wrong. Men need sex.… Read more »

ssowns
7 years ago

“his woman should have his needs and his best interests in mind in a like fashion that he has for her; this is not and has never been the case. In fact it’s a recipe for failure, since it puts men into a position of neediness, and thus forces him to negotiate for his woman’s desire.” Its possible to train women that your needs come first. I’ve only recently started doing this but small things here and there where you are leading the girl to doing something you want them to.. going to your favorite spot for lunch, going to… Read more »

sjfrellc
sjfrellc
7 years ago

It is certainly possible to “train” (heh, I used quotes, which weakens the sentiment) women that your needs come first. But that is you paddling upstream. I’ve kayaked up stream and I have kayaked down stream. Down stream is better. You can travel up-stream for so long and then it becomes tiring. Training women is tantamount to traveling up-stream. Better to to demonstrate, not explicate and have them along for the ride. I see the problem with your question being in short term vs. long term. I also foresee the weariness that a 28 year old woman has with a… Read more »

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[…] begin with a quote from Tomassi’s blog […]

Sam
Sam
7 years ago

“Men will always be the risk takers in all aspects of life.”

Going to have to disagree on that one. Women today (and even more in the past) take enormous risk with regards to having children. This heightened risk probably plays no small role in hypergamy itself.

BornThisWay
BornThisWay
6 years ago

Terrific observations and a provocative proposal to the problem. The Red Pill is a tough one to swallow. But like everyone else here, I’d rather know the truth than be consumed by it. Superb. I’ll chip in later on this one. Tks.

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