Memento Mori

sjfrellc hit me with this question from Monday’s post:

Rollo, what are your real “feelings” about this blue pill guy. Are you surprised that you couldn’t peer counsel him to come around to your perspective? Or are you frustrated that the Blue Pill Feminine Imperative and social conventions are like a black hole and sucked him in and wouldn’t let go?

Lets just be clear about something I’m not sure I’ve ever addressed before, I never expect any guy to come to a Red Pill perspective. I’m thankful guys find this blog, I’m glad I can help and my book and writing here is accessible, but I don’t expect men to accept any of it. If I expect anything it’s that the vast majority of men will resist even a passing reference to anything counter to their Blue Pill conditioning like a cornered animal. Most men are completely inured and dependent on an intergender social system and a set of rules they’ve been raised to believe is fair (if not grossly weighted in their own favor) and women are abiding by. They believe that contenting and satisfying a woman’s sexual strategy is a realizable life success.

I’ve always said unplugging guys from the Matrix is like triage, but this man was like reading last rites to a guy 10 years ago only to find out he hasn’t died yet. It’s no secret that I’ve personally known a man who hung himself and two more who swallowed bullets as a direct result of their inability to come to terms with their shattered hopes of an ideal Blue Pill life. It’s one thing to have men commit suicide because their ONEitis fears of losing “the best girl they’d ever get” leave them, but it’s quite another to watch a similar man waste away to the end of his life still grasping for the hope that in the last half hour of his life that Blue Pill goal might be realized if he’s only good enough.

I never expected him to unplug even then, but to see the guy still grasping at Blue Pill ideals because he utterly has no other frame of reference put the totality of a Blue Pill existence into perspective for me. I’m all about guys spinning plates, enjoying more and better sex with them or their wives, and certainly about adopting an Alpha mindset and behaviors that facilitate doing that, but it’s important to also remember that the importance of a Red Pill awareness has much broader implications. It can literally save your life.

Anyone wondering why I have a problem with purple pill advocates pandering to the sensibilities of their majority female readership (i.e. clients) by encouraging Blue Pill half-measures to men’s lives should keep that in mind.

When you become Red Pill aware you become more conscious of how the conditioning of a Blue Pill mindset predisposes men to frustration because Blue Pill idealism is really unattainable by design. You also become aware of how dangerous that frustration has the potential to be for men who can neither handle the Red Pill truth nor the constant measuring and failure to achieve Blue Pill goal-states he’s been conditioned to believe are attainable, and other men have.

That frustration can be dangerous to both himself and others, but that’s in the now. Precious few men in the ‘sphere consider the long-term consequences of the life of a man immersed in Blue Pill idealism, responsibility and promises that keep him grinding on until he’s reached the end of his usefulness to the Feminine Imperative.

“He was never much of a man…”

Since I started writing on SoSuave, and especially more now that I’ve detailed Open Hypergamy, I’ve had many guys relate a similar story about how their grandmother, mother or mother-in-law had just openly told him or his wife that her husband was never “much of a man”.

These women are all in their late 70s to early 80s and it’s like at that point all bets are off and what do they really have to lose by letting their daughters and granddaughters in on grandma’s words of warning about “settling” on a man? I’ve even had women readers relate how their own mothers confessed that there was a “just part of her she just could never share with a man like her father.”

These Alpha Widow confessions usually came after her husband was in the ground or had been delivered to the assisted living facility and too far gone to really register the gravity of her real estimate of him after living the better part of her life with him. The guys who relate these stories to me are Red Pill aware so their jaws dropping came with a little knowing expectation, but imagine how the Blue Pill husband of the daughter of one of these elderly women must process that confession. What mental contortions does a man need to do to fit that information into a Blue Pill mindset?

I think when a woman has nothing to really lose by copping to it is when they’re most comfortable with Open Hypergamy. This same comfort is becoming more common for younger women due to the social and personal security they’re ‘entitled’ to now, but for women who don’t really feel that security has solidified until their golden years this admonition and confession of Open Hypergamy almost seems like a relief to them. A relief in the hope that they’ve warned their daughters or granddaughters to opt for monogamy with an exciting Alpha lover/husband (no matter how perceptual) rather than regretting the ‘safe bet’ she made by settling on her Plan B man, her Beta-dependable husband she conveniently ‘found’ in her Epiphany Phase.

As women age towards their later years the urgency to warn younger generations of the sisterhood about the results of their hypergamous life decisions becomes more pressing. To be sure there’s a degree of desire to live vicariously through their daughter’s and granddaughter’s experiences, but more so this confession is for their own need of closure – a final coming clean about what was really influencing those past decisions and living (or not) with them. There comes a point when admitting the ugly truth feels better than worrying over keeping up the pretense of concern.

Far too many Blue Pill men (even young men) are terrified of living the life of the lonely old man. They imagine that if they don’t comply with the Feminine Imperative’s preset relational context of women that they’ll live lives of quiet desperation. I outlined this in the Myth of the Lonely Old Man – the threat point is one where men are encouraged to believe that if they don’t comply with women’s relational primacy they’ll endure a life of decaying loneliness into old age, unloved and devoid of children who’ll comfort them bedside as they peacefully pass into the next life.

What these Blue Pill men fail to realize is this is simply one more part of the feminine-primary fantasy they’re condition for. Do a Google image search for “end of life issues”, see all of those pictures of grandpa holding hands with wife and family in a clean comforting hospice bed saying his last goodbyes before he passes on? That advertising is the Blue Pill fantasy. In all likelihood you’ll die in an elderly care home, from lung fluid buildup, in the middle of the night with no one around or a complete stranger in the bed next to you. I understand that’s a depressing thought, but the truth of it is you’ll really have no influence in deciding how you’re going out at that stage, and hopefully that wakes you up about living a Blue Pill existence based on fear, compliance and appeasement till death do you part.

Put that into perspective with a man who wakes up to his conditions.

Die Alpha

Now before I get the predictable “not with my grandpa” stories, let me just say that you’ve got to put the generational differences into perspective.

When I published Empathy I figured I’d get some backlash from women in the oversimplified binaries I’ve come to expect. So before those same sputterings arise let me unequivocally footnote here that women are absolutely capable of a learned empathy and sympathy for men. However those sympathies, like genuine desire, cannot be negotiated for. Whatever your misguided concept is about how Relational Equity should merit a woman’s sympathy or respect, those are only valid and genuine when a woman freely gives them to a man she perceives as Alpha, never as something he’s due.

In every story you’ll hear about how the wife, kids and grandkids gathered around the family patriarch in the hours before he passed, understand that he was in all likelihood a respected dominant Alpha for most of his life. I want to add a bit of balance to the Blue Pill elderly I described this week, so let me also say I’ve known a handful of Men who died Alpha. These are the Men for whom a widow and his kids honor his memory once a year. They go to the gravesite because he was worth the cost of putting him in the ground instead of a cheap cremation.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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sjfrellc
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@SilvrBkFebruary 20th, 2015 at 9:29 pm I wonder that even after this, how can you be not against monogamy? I know that you advocate men not making monogamy their ultimate goal, but if this is the level of empathy (or lack of it) on the other side, why not go the other way altogether? What should the man then do, after his SMV declines beyond his peak (say at 39)? There are unicorns out there. Some of us managed to lock down a 25 year old woman that was good. And managed not to not F**k up the relationship. But… Read more »

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Memento mori ‘remember (that you have) to die’: I plan on going through all the Kubler Ross stages at the end of my life in 12 hours. The five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. This includes a possible Aaron Clarey’s suggestion at the end of life. As a physician , I see it all the time. Bad shit happens to random people all the time. As a wildlife enthusiast, I see that the best way to avoid the grave is be adaptable. Very adaptable. Female deer move on when their offspring are harvested. And they have not… Read more »

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Forge the Sky
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Tilikum, To be fair to us recovering betas, there is a turnover in the commentariat. And a few of us transition from bitching and seeking advice to giving it in return. If I wrote everything I thought during my early RP days, there would be a lot of Forge the Sky beta bullshit out there. But I agree with your overall astonishment. Rollo does seem to have a remarkable forbearance, and a passion for teaching. Also, FWIW, I’ve read around for a while and your comments have a vibe of unreconstructed intellectual alpha. Purpose and clarity. That’s been helpful to… Read more »

sjfrellc
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” …your comments have a vibe of unreconstructed intellectual alpha. Purpose and clarity. ”

Yes.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ YaReally It is a hypnosis/NLP idea. It is the use of suggestion to change people’s attributions about their perceptions. Essentially, we take in way too much information through our perceptions and only pay attention to a small fraction of it. What we attend to, comprehend, and attribute from that information is based on our beliefs. Given that, it is possible to use suggestions to influence a person’s beliefs and literally change what they see. That is how hypnotists get people to think another person is invisible (negative hallucination) or see an animal that is not really there (positive hallucination).… Read more »

anotherlawyerwaistingtime
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I recently was looking for a new book to read on a work trip. I found what I thought would be a good Sci Fi/Action book: assassins – check; warriors – check, guns – check, technology – check. Born of Fury by Sherril Kenyon is ultimate expression of hypergamy/FI: male self-sacrifice, distain for beta men, woman in control of society, alpha male sexual appeal to women, women objectifying men, new man/new father for female’s kid, marrying up, et al. The book’s “marriage ritual” I found particularly offensive; it had the woman walking around the male as he was on his… Read more »

walawala
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Here’s a common reaction from guy I talk about the Red Pill with: “Yah, but I already do all those things…IF I wasn’t already married, I’d be banging everything that moves”… This from a guy who had a nervous breakdown because his wife left him after he was out late continually and not paying enough attention to her…. There’s always an excuse not to do the thing that’s hardest to do. The work that goes into transforming after unplugging is so hard that at times I’ve longed for the comfort of my naivete: I should just xyz and that girl… Read more »

Mr T.
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“As women age towards their later years the urgency to warn younger generations of the sisterhood about the results of their hypergamous life decisions becomes more pressing. To be sure there’s a degree of desire to live vicariously through their daughter’s and granddaughter’s experiences, but more so this confession is for their own need of closure – a final coming clean about what was really influencing those past decisions and living (or not) with them . There comes a point when admitting the ugly truth feels better than worrying over keeping up the pretense of concern.” What about their boys! Those women… Read more »

447
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From the text: “let me unequivocally footnote here that women are absolutely capable of a learned empathy and sympathy for men. However those sympathies, like genuine desire, cannot be negotiated for. Whatever your misguided concept is about how Relational Equity should merit a woman’s sympathy or respect, those are only valid and genuine when a woman freely gives them to a man she perceives as Alpha, never as something he’s due.” Seems a self-defeating statement to me. Ok, so it doesn’t count and it is no real, solid sympathy or empathy at all. Because random, unrealiable wishy-washy-feelings that are in… Read more »

“Chokmah
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@anon As far as I am able to gather, friend, I have no answers to your question. Truly. I do what I can, in my own small way. I trust others to do what they can, in their own small way. I’m not sure that much more can be asked than that. The indisputable answer is that we must unite to purge these toxins from our body culture. That is a tall order to request, which is exactly what they exploit against us. Sorry, no answers from these quarters, I’m a simple foot soldier, along with the rest of you.… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Yareally A guy can SEE his girlfriend/wife make out with me or voluntarily give me her number and if he’s fully invested in the Blue Pill he will convince himself that he didn’t see anything. Cosign. I’m not actively gaming women when I’m out, but women with partners still come onto me and I see some of these same things. One drunk broad was sitting with a man and I asked her to dance, not realizing that she was drunk. No obvious clues. Once on the dance floor, it was obvious. When we were finished dancing, she grabbed my… Read more »

theasdgamer
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There is a concept, called an “epistemic crisis”, that can lead to abandoning deeply held beliefs. Maybe Dr. J can address that. It might be useful in formulating a plan of discussion to get Blue Pill men to abandon the BP.

Softek
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I work with a form of NLP/hypnosis. I just had a client the other night and we worked through an extremely traumatic memory with very good results. My belief is that memories buried alive never die. Flipping the representation of a memory, i.e. changing a memory, after confronting the reality of it, is a key distinction from denial of a memory. When I work with people I have them fully associate to the exact memories they’re trying to run away from. I worked with one person recently whose girlfriend cheated on him. He didn’t see anything happen, but I asked… Read more »

Tilikum
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@ Forge the Sky and sjfrellc Thanks. Perhaps interestingly, attractive women and mating rights have never been an issue. Three sons, spaced way out (over 20, under 10, new) three different moms. The moms and sons get comments on good looks to this day. Instead, the challenge for my life has been staying out of the view of society and sequestering myself to avoid haters. Its a true statement that Betas will team up on an Alpha, and no amount of female accommodation will move those Betas off of their goal of assuring their paternity. I don’t blame them. So,… Read more »

Glenn
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Hi all. Been super busy with work – be careful what you set your sights at. I sought to build my business and tripled it, but am working full out. Actually, let me start there, tangentially if you will. I realized recently that I hadn’t actually given my work my “all” in a long time. Without realizing it, the sense of futility that I felt but denied and fought for decades had seeped into my work life deeply. As a true-Blue Piller, I took on my career in IT sales and marketing as a means to being a good father,… Read more »

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“There, I just laid myself bare for the gallery. Rip away.”

Ah, yes. The ascetic –characterized by or suggesting the practice of severe self-discipline and abstention from all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons– good man. A surrogate behavior for an alpha tribal male in today’s society when you have no lands to settle or no one to fight.

sjfrellc
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Glenn “Exercising skills one has mastery with is quite enjoyable. One of the benefits of getting older is achieving mastery and now I’m using it so much more effectively.”

I like mastery too. Makes tasks easier. Sometimes it makes things effortless.

Glenn
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Blue Pill programming goes so deep. I think it makes men see themselves through harsh utilitarian contexts as human beings. Rollo talks about “the burden of performance” and every man knows he’s right. But consider what the contest looks like when one is still Blue Pill? Performance then was serving others (and perhaps then acting out irresponsibly in fits and spurts), but as that game was essentially changed underneath our feet while we were playing it, we didn’t adapt. Many of us found ourselves in a game that was unwinnable. The epic sadness and existential rending of one’s very identity… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Glenn

Lol, I’m just like the selfish, solipsistic, narcissists I used to hate and look down up on from my supposedly more moral perch. Oh well, if you can’t beat them, join them.

[Cue applause.] Welcome to the club!

Forge the Sky
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I have a few thoughts about finding purpose, but no time to write atm. I recommend people read this though:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/

Written by a new physician about the horrors if dying in modern society, where we are sometimes capable of clinging to life far longer than it is enjoyable. It deals with end-of-life issues and suicide in a harrowing way.

ChocDoc
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Hi Rollo and to all the commenters in here. Iam very happy and pleased to find this Blog and to know that there are other men who are thinking and “fighting” like me. English is not my first language so iam always thankful for corrections! @Rollo: This Post of you is, in my opinion, your best post so far. As men we always have to ask ourselves what our real “purpose” in life is like. For me its clear that my “purpose” in life is certainly not to serve women or everything that comes with it. My Purpose is also… Read more »

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@Born: “The longer a man waits to take the RP the harder and more dangerous it becomes. If your in your 20’s and 30’s, its probably the prime time to accept RP tenants, but when your in your 40’s and 50’s, especially if your married with kids, its too late.” Dead wrong. We deal with guys all the time in /r/marriedredpill who are that age and they uniformly report a significant improvement in their lives and marriages when they unplug. 40’s and 50’s is absolutely NOT to old to unplug. 70’s and married to a BPD woman for 55 years… Read more »

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@gregg Love your writing, gregg. Your words deeply resonate with my own thoughts and experiences. Here my impression of MGTOW. I’ve posted this already, in one form or another, on several sites geared towards men’s issues. Would be interested in your opinion. ——————————————— If we were talking about anything else that had a 50% failure rate, the fallout of which disproportionately destroyed women’s lives, no one would have a problem with women opting out of whatever that thing was. But – because it’s men’s lives that are disproportionately destroyed, no matter the failure rate, men are whiny, misogynistic, cowardly, and… Read more »

theasdgamer
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MGTOW is about neutering betas. I repeat myself.

MGTOW is about eliminating one’s gene’s from the gene pool.

MGTOW is about not having offspring.

MGTOW is about eliminating the human race by failing to reproduce.

MGTOW is about shaming alphas for behaving like men.

MGTOW is about making half of the human race (women) invisible.

MGTOW is about species death and giving up the struggle to reproduce.

MGTOW is for losers.

Hobbes
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Theadsgamer- lol. I’m not a mgtow, but I do respect what they have to say alot. I guess I take whats salient to me about all aspects of the manosphere- RP, PUA, MRA and even MGTOW. I think maybe you are a bit too harsh here. Lots of mgtow do get laid and many even had kids already, so for them that is not an issue anymore. Secondly, I’ve gotten laid a hell of alot and have no children, and to be honest, I would only consider having them with a woman in a third world country and NOT bring… Read more »

M Simon
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I’ve have seen so many men laid low and screwed by the court induced slavery because they just had to have the kids.

You must choose well. And then master the situation. The rules are the same as they always were. The lay of the land is different.

====

Kids:

It is not a matter of trusting the woman or the state. Do you trust yourself?

YaReally
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@SeesMostTruth “Men that need women to prop up their self-esteem and egos to be mentally healthy are in serious need of psychological help (think Elliot Rodger/PUAs).” Elliot Rodger was anti-PUA and fucked in the head. PUA teaches men to base their self-worth internally, not to use women to prop up their self-esteem and egos. I’d be happy to link you to endless videos from PUAs on those subjects. Understand that you are parroting an ignorant viewpoint based on a cartoon stereotype of what you’ve been told PUAs are (and PUA marketing is partly to blame for that) or minimal/misguided research… Read more »

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ChocDoc February 21st, 2015 at 1:40 pm The better you serve your customers the better you will do. To think you can avoid service is nuts. You can choose what service you provide. And the terms of service. But to think you can avoid it? Just what are you willing to give up? And as theasdgamer so correctly points out – if you choose to avoid serving women and children, you will not be represented in the next generation. In the long run “I will not serve” is self correcting. We call it evolution. The only question then is: “Will… Read more »

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Forge the Sky
February 21st, 2015 at 12:46 pm

You might like this:

http://reason.com/archives/2015/02/06/dying-and-in-denial

M Simon
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Glenn
February 21st, 2015 at 11:32 am

The epic sadness and existential rending of one’s very identity brought on by being on this hamster wheel to nowhere grinds many men to dust.

I always wanted to be the next Edison. And barring that his lab assistant (M. Simon in the Spencer Tracy movie – heh). Did I do it? Well in a very small way. I designed the I/O board that went in to the World’s First BBS. What is a BBS you ask? One of the precursors to the ‘net. Look it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system

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Although some would consider Transactional Analysis as unscientific psycho babble it’s interesting that the Drama Triangle (Persecutor, Rescuer, Victim complex) almost perfectly mirrors Blue Pill behaviour. I find it is a practical heuristic that helps to simplify the complexity of Evo Psych, FI, sexual biology and inter sexual behaviour. Interestingly TA accepts that the ‘Rescuer’ complex is facilitated by mothers and involves promoting the child having no self worth outside of being validated externally by the Victim (typically the mother). Once the schema is internalised the individual is set on a life path of seeking validation ‘strokes’ externally by self… Read more »

amancalledquint
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@theasdgamer February 21st, 2015 at 3:14 pm Wow , that’s a nice long list of ad hominem with no backup. Look at this list of losers who didn’t procreate: Pierre Bayle Robert Boyle Johannes Brahms Samuel Butler Robert Burton Ludwig van Beethoven Johannes Brahms Giacomo Casanova Frederic Chopin Nicolaus Copernicus Eugène Delacroix Rene Descartes Gustave Flaubert Galileo Galilei Edward Gibbon Vincent van Gogh Oliver Goldsmith Thomas Hobbes Horace David Hume Washington Irving Henry James Franz Kafka Immanuel Kant Soren Kierkegaard Charles Lamb T. E. Lawrence Meriwether Lewis Philip Larkin Gottfried Leibniz John Locke Michelangelo Friedrich Nietzsche Sir Isaac Newton Blaise… Read more »

amancalledquint
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I apologise @theasdgamer – they are all bachelors – some who did and some who did not procreate. My point still stands.

The Diplomat
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Hypergamy doesn’t care what religion, race, or political stripe you identify with. Nor does the Red Pill, Blue Pill, or Purple Pill.

No man will never see clearly until he grasps this.

redlight
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Q. what part of the manosphere said this recently:

“you have to have some sort of direction, some sort of north star you are headed for, and that’s your values and that’s what you stand for. You have to put that before her. As soon as you put her first she will resent you”

stuttie
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@ Hobbes – you and I think the same. “They get their earnings slashed, not considering what they have to pay out of pocket that “doesn’t count” all for a woman who pockets most of it and kids the guys rarely get to see who end up calling mommies new bf “daddy”. That there is the biggest fear to guys that got married and had kids in a bp context. It was for me. The thought of your ex shacking up with some other dude and having HIM become ‘new daddy’ is by far a bp guys worst nightmare. Not… Read more »

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amancalledquint February 21st, 2015 at 6:57 pm Where would all those men be now had their fathers decided not to procreate? Non-existent. You in fact owe your life to the sacrifice of others. The burden too heavy for you? Put it down. Not strong enough to dominate a woman for 20, 30, 40, 50 years? Don’t even touch it. Women are not very interested in mating with weak men in any case. My attitude? “Never tell me the odds.” For me? So far so good. 40+ years and counting. I did have the advantage of getting the beginnings of my… Read more »

Chokmah”
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Let’s assume for a second that all of the world’s great religions are just bullshit. Fine. We are still inextricably bound to the fact that free males want to be free, and that there are other males who incessantly seek to bind those free males into servitude. That is the inescapable history of the human species. That is the very Alpha/Beta premise that this very blog is founded upon. So now let’s talk about the various operating system alternatives for the human brain: – Islam – bow to Allah, your intermediary to the Alpha & Omega. – Luciferinism – Do… Read more »

Jack LeBear
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Is MGTOW being stuck in the depression stage of RP process for some men?
Is it a Transactional Analysis game of Why Don’t You Yes But?

Yollo Comanche
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@Jack LeBear MGTOW seems to me like it is made up of BOTH incel guys and guys who never find someone who will submit to them. Hence, you might be right to think they’re mostly depressed. However, I think MGTOW is a cocoon that will actually hatch one day and make a new form of Intellectual Alpha self-expression for these guys. They want to take the power back from women, and they know part of taking it back comes from limiting the options of women by spreading the knowledge of women and their hypergamous opportunism to as many men as… Read more »

Mr T.
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“They go to the gravesite because he was worth the cost of putting him in the ground instead of a cheap cremation.” Wow. Just wow. This is heavy stuff. Anyone grasp this? It brings me back 15 years ago when I was screwing a single mom, I always noticed a capped vase while screwing in her living room, while in the act of ((viewer discretion advice))receiving a BJ……I asked her what is in the vase? She turns and says ; that’s my mother’s ashes . Anyone notice all those life insurance commercials showing a happy old man sitting beside his… Read more »

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@yareally “Study them all and there are massive core similarities in our philosophies. In the end we all want men to be FREE…it’s all of us VS the Feminist Imperative.! THIS! Thisis basically all I am trying to say here. As a former divorce lawyer I can confirm that we are our own worst enemy. We are not sticking together. Politicians – MALES, manipulated by women, pass anti-male laws. Judges – MALES, sentence their brothers to jail for minor offences against women. Policemen – MEN – throw their brothers out of houses for false rape charges…etc. There are still too… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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@YaReally Hey bro could you do me a solid and point me to some useful PUA? I want something simple and effective to use. The shit I’ve bought over the years is essentially useless for my particular set of psychological attributes(abusive family/never really gave a fuck about society). I mean why call it game if it’s just advice on how to “improve” yourself to make yourself palatable to women? They’ve been exposed to be so different, yet so uncaring of what I am as long as I give them what they think they want. Why try so hard to model… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@Glenn

Good to see you back in the saddle. Hoping I can get there soon myself.

Tony232
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Alpha male = who is the first among slaves.

ChocDoc
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“The better you serve your customers the better you will do. To think you can avoid service is nuts. You can choose what service you provide. And the terms of service. But to think you can avoid it? Just what are you willing to give up? And as theasdgamer so correctly points out – if you choose to avoid serving women and children, you will not be represented in the next generation. In the long run “I will not serve” is self correcting. We call it evolution. The only question then is: “Will you be an Alpha server? Or a… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Chokmah – Your grasp of the epistemology of western thought is quite under-developed. The ideas of modernity and the renaissance and the age of reason didn’t arise from Christianity. In fact, the emanated from the ideas of the “pagan” Greeks and Romans. This why when early Christians sacked the libraries in Alexandria, killing Hypatia – a leading teacher of the ideas of Lucretius – they claimed to be ridding themselves of pagan ideas. You see, the ideas of liberty and reason and enlightenment arose in opposition to Christian tyrants. They sought to push God and the King and the… Read more »

Divided Line
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The alpha doesn’t really die alpha though. In the end, he’s just an advanced pussy beggar. This is a lot of effort you guys are putting into conforming to what women want and expect. In the end, the alpha is really just a guy who reprogrammed his personality so that it accorded with what women demand. He’s just a reflection of women’s desires. Whatever his own desires would have been or could have been, he’ll never know. What is the point of all this if genuine intimacy with women isn’t possible? And how is it possible if a woman falls… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Divided Line – Consider that the central paradox of The Rational Male is that Rollo is a married man, faithful (according to what he says here – I’ll never believe it, just to put that on the record), has a longstanding wife who submits to him as the leader of his family and is raising a teen daughter. He claims he can maintain frame and his dominance, and it seems he’s at least friendly to traditional Christian values, and traditional values in general. It brings up some uncomfortable truths. Bear with me for a second, and just set MGTOW… Read more »

anon
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“they’ve warned their daughters or granddaughters to opt for monogamy with an exciting Alpha lover/husband (no matter how perceptual) rather than regretting the ‘safe bet’ she made by settling on her Plan B man, her Beta-dependable husband she conveniently ‘found’ in her Epiphany Phase.”

Even when given this warning, is it generally possible for the daughters to exercise this option?

ChocDoc
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@Glenn

Women are Gatekeepers for sex….thats right
Men are Gatekeepers for relationships.

For me its like ying and yang…..or 2 sides of the same coin.

We have to perform to get sex or women, but women also have to perform to get a relationship.

The women are going crazy nowadays because have forgotten somehow about the gatekeeper things!

ChocDoc
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…because men have forgotten…

Hobbes
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MGTOW and PUA are just not that hard to reconcile. The fact is that MGTOWs are correct- alpha/beta/pua is all about performing for a woman, conferring power to her. Remember the only power a woman has, even today, is sexual. Women have laws and politicians and judges catering to them because men cater to them, because we all want pussy. When you do PUS, when you seek to procreate/have sex you are conferring power to her. True enough. Where MGTOW goes wrong is thinking that it’s always an evil thing, or somehow bad. That by “not playing” anything changes- it… Read more »

Hobbes
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A little comment about the whole genetic legacy ting, btw. People seem obsessed with this gentic/reproductive legacy thing and it is incredibly silly. Your genes are simple molecular code, an arrangement of molecules that are not special to you. What makes each of us up is the collection of genes and their expression.. your genes are not unique.. the genes for blue eyes are the same in everyone with the gene. There is special “your blue eyes” genes. What makes your blue eyes unique is the interplay of all the genes in your dna. In other words, you have passed… Read more »

Glenn
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@ Hobbes – Let’s be clear about something. Men and women exist in a sexual power imbalance and have long before feminism or even agrarian society. Women choose, men compete for that choice. Sexual selection by women and our tournament to win that choice has made us what we are. There is no taking the power back. There is acknowledging reality. You want to fuck young, tight, hot nubile women. More than they want to fuck you. Much more. You are thirsty. MGTOWs pretend that can shut off the thirst. The truly daft ones talk about things like “induced asexuality”… Read more »

SFC Ton
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A man thinking alpha = pussy beggar is justification for being a pussy himself

Atticus, if you want to ride and you are in the usa, hit up a motorcycle safety course. Locally, they are done through our community colleges, and the course itself is designed and what not by the Motorcycle Safty Fondation.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

They creep you into it, so to speak, and help you avoid that whole laying a bike down thing.

Hobbes
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Glenn- maybe you misunderstood my post, but I agree.. MGTOWs have it wrong and I am no MGTOW so you’re preaching to the choir. But their observations are not off, just their response to it- or I won’t say wrong- just not the response I would choose.

447
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447
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@ this quote: “Given the above, what is MGTOW except for a defensive crouch? It may be a good posture for the bottom 50% of men in the mating pool – but then again, a defensive crouch has often been the best position for the losers of life’s many games to adopt. That MGTOW just checks out utterly may seem like “changing the rules”, but it’s nothing of the sort. It is an acceptance of reality. Many of you were never going to reproduce anyway. 40% or more of each generation of men doesn’t get to pass on its genetic… Read more »

447
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447
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(and: I#m not MGOTW, but I think theit path is ok)

YaReally
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The problem with the MGTOW view of PUA is that, like anti-gamers, Feminists, etc. they view it as: “A beta learning to mimic alpha behaviors enough to pretend to be alpha.” But what PUA (especially modern PUA) *ACTUALLY* is, is more like: “An alpha, caged in Blue Pill social conditioning, learning to break free from the shackles, and RETURNING to their natural alpha state.” A lot of what we do in PUA is what feels natural but has been beaten out of us by social conditioning. That’s why a lot of PUA tactics look like stuff we did when we… Read more »

zip
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zip
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@Softek

ref your commentary from February 21st, 2015 at 9:27 am

Excellent, fabulous post. Thank you for your contribution.

That’s the way. It’s a mix of meditation/awareness-techniques and regression. Btw: do you know “The Presence Process” by M. Brown?

redlight
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thanks Yareally, nailed it like usual

no guesses yet on which part of the space the quote was from (not who, just MRA etc.). Here’s more from the same talk:

If nobody else was getting married would you say to your girlfriend, you know what would be fucking cool we should make a promise to each other that we would be together forever and make a legal thing that
if we break up with have to split up have our assets in a big court battle where we fight out with lawyers. When said like that does marriage sound very appealing?

amancalledquint
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M Simon February 21st, 2015 at 10:32 pm Are you saying it’s an achievement to have the same woman for 20, 30, 40, 50 years? If that’s you, which by your comments seems to be the case, then well done, that IS an acheivement in this day and age of the FI running in God Mode backed by the Law, Television, Myths etc. I mean that sincerely. However, I’d ask you to re-read my comment – which bit of ‘I like to get my dick wet’ did you not understand? That’s why I read all of Rollo’s stuff as well… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Quint

Lol, you answer my admittedly hyperbolic points with NAMGTOWALT? Seriously?

theasdgamer
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Yareally wrote:

MGTOW is kind of like guys who’ve decided their socially conditioned selves is who they are and they’ve accepted that and don’t want to change it

Even more, they don’t believe that they really can change it. MGTOWs want to do a work-around to masculinity instead of unshackling themselves from the Matrix. Because they are inherently cowardly Because they might fail to become men. So they don’t try and keep their hollow chests.

Curious OT stuff: See my post about Jesus flirting. He was a PUA, at least in capability.

theasdgamer
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I typically have no problem with MGTOW criticism of women and of feminists. What I have a problem with is their crappy work-arounds.

amancalledquint
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@theasdgamer Hyperbole or not particularly alpha ‘shaming’ language? I couldn’t decide.

theasdgamer
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@ Yareally

Another MGTOW criticism of PUAs is that their skills are worthless. Because salesmanship is such a worthless skill to have. Not.

theasdgamer
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@ Quint

@theasdgamer Hyperbole or not particularly alpha ‘shaming’ language? I couldn’t decide.

IDGAF what you think about me. Come up with serious points.

Yollo Comanche
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@YaReally

Earlier I asked if you could direct me to some useful PUA. I want to learn, can you show me?

Yollo Comanche
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@YaReally

Ha! I just clicked on your name and a BUNCH of cool shit came up. Thanks for archiving this.

YaReally
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@Yollo Comanche “The shit I’ve bought over the years is essentially useless for my particular set of psychological attributes(abusive family/never really gave a fuck about society).” eh, fuck all that. None of it affects your ability to go talk to a girl and get laid. We all have baggage, you just start taking action. Like Tyler says: “it’s funny how many mental disorders like depression and baggage and childhood angst and apathy suddenly go away once a guy is getting laid by hot girls” lol “I mean why call it game if it’s just advice on how to “improve” yourself… Read more »

amancalledquint
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@theasdgamer Charming… well I do ‘GAF’ about what you think which is why I made my original statement. Seriously, I thought I did present a proper argument – your point was that MGTOW are losers because they don’t leave any genetics behind, was it not? MGTOW is about eliminating one’s gene’s from the gene pool. MGTOW is about not having offspring. MGTOW is about eliminating the human race by failing to reproduce. It may have been misunderstood but my counter was meant to mean: ‘but are they really losers if they have reached a sort of “immortality” by contributing and… Read more »

YaReally
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@theasdgamer “Even more, they don’t believe that they really can change it. MGTOWs want to do a work-around to masculinity instead of unshackling themselves from the Matrix. Because they are inherently cowardly Because they might fail to become men. So they don’t try and keep their hollow chests.” This mentality is not too dissimilar from fat girls who wants men to like fat chicks instead of just hitting the gym. But I wouldn’t paint MGTOW so narrowly. There are a lot of factors involved in MGTOW beyond just “is it possible to change?”, from “is it worth changing?” to “even… Read more »

YaReally
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Also the guide would cover the bare minimum on how to have kids in today’s society and legal traps and hypergamy traps and basically give a plan for “how to keep your girlfriend attracted enough to probably not fuck you over if you REALLY want to have kids and how having kids will affect her hypergamy and behavior and shit-testing because you can no longer easily leave and how to counter that and be prepared for it when it happens to minimize it and how to avoid getting legally married through all of it by knowing what pressures are going… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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This mentality is not too dissimilar from fat girls who wants men to like fat chicks instead of just hitting the gym. Rationalization of their failure to perform + appeal to sympathy of the opposite sex is really more of a Nice Guy beta thing. Knock off the appeal to sympathy and you’ve got MGTOW though, yes. They have a lot of valid points and I can see why a guy would choose MGTOW, especially if he’s over 30 and been through a divorce or some bad relationships. Heh, good to know I’m in your “It’s fair to go MGTOW”… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Yareally There are a lot of factors involved in MGTOW beyond just “is it possible to change?”, from “is it worth changing?” to “even if I changed would I want what that change leads to?” to “even if I changed and got what I want, would the amount of bullshit society throws at me for achieving that be worth having it?” How much of this is just excuses for cowardice? Do MGTOWs even want to be the best men that they can be? To up their testosterone to normal levels so that they care about fakking? Is it natural… Read more »

theasdgamer
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@ Quint It may have been misunderstood but my counter was meant to mean: ‘but are they really losers if they have reached a sort of “immortality” by contributing and defining the modern age as we know it, despite the fact that they did not reproduce?’ If the only war to be won is to reproduce then by definition you are correct. But a large proportion of the ‘winners’ in the race you declared are partly around because of the ‘losers” contribution, that’s a fact – they are responsible for amazing acheivements in medicine and science and many other fields.… Read more »

Badpainter
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theasdgamer – “Is it natural for a man to forego women? To not want progeny?” Yes. Perfectly natural, and visible throughout history. Often a necessity, and a result of logistics. The explorers, trappers, and mountain men that preceded the westward settlement of the US being a good group to look at. As social misfits, non-conformists, misanthropes, and assorted weirdos these guys had the option to go their own way by going away, an option not available today. Prior to WWII the lower classes of men, ag labor, cowboys, miners, loggers, railroad workers, etc. relied on prostitution because they were unable… Read more »

Yollo Comanche
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@YaReally

…..thank you. Thank you so much.

Sun Wukong
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If most men follow MGTOW and don’t reproduce, we have a species death scenario. In fact, if the replacement rate of women goes below 2.1 due to MGTOW, we have a species death scenario. The US is below 2.1 as is most of Europe.

Caucasians in the US are below 2.1. Hispanics and blacks are not. We’re seeing death of a particular race, not a species.

447
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“If most men follow MGTOW and don’t reproduce, we have a species death scenario. In fact, if the replacement rate of women goes below 2.1 due to MGTOW, we have a species death scenario. The US is below 2.1 as is most of Europe.” No. As Sun Wukong said: This is about some races dying out, not about the species. There is no lack of e.g. yellow or black people (simplifying here) on the planet. All this talk about “species death” doesn’t change the factors in current society that make having children with a women under current legal enviroments (as… Read more »

Edelweiss
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This article, like most of Rollo’s, presents me with strong parallels to my own life. Any man with a RP perspective will be able to relate to my observations of my mother’s relationship with my stepfather. Over the past 33yrs, a gradual transformation has taken place that shows me exactly how little in the way of “rewards” waits for a lifelong beta provider. My mother married him at the age of 40, after three failed marriages to bolder, less safe men. She confided in me shortly after they wed, that she had the option of being with better looking, more… Read more »

Divided Line
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@Glenn I already know all this stuff and I don’t disagree with any of it. I’ve had three long term relationships in my life and a handful of flings and one night stands. I have enough experience with women to know there is no prize. You said: “tell me the prize,” but I’ve already asked you what the prize is? Just get a damn call girl, who cares? If it is as bad as you say it is, and if it is the uphill battle you describe, then you lose for winning, as I already argued. What is point of… Read more »

Divided Line
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@Glenn

Let me amend that. All men lose. Women, as ever, win. They’ll be sure to get their war bride tingles when the previous alphas are overthrown by the aspiring alphas. You are forever disposable. I’m sure even the Sabine Women would have appreciated 50 Shades of Grey.

theasdgamer
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Sun

When you control for native born Americans. all races are below the replacement rate. American immigrants reproduce at high levels in the first generation only.

http://www.prb.org/publications/datasheets/2012/world-population-data-sheet/fact-sheet-us-population.aspx

theasdgamer
Guest

Oh, wait, the news is even worse since 2012.

The new record-low teen birthrate — 26.6 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19 — represented a 10 percent decline from 2012 and a 57 percent drop since 1991, the most recent peak for teen births, the report said.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/28/us-birthrate-plummets-to-record-low/#ixzz3SZRBWTKG

http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/05/us-birth-rate-hits-all-time-low-total-fe

yossarian
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yossarian
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A very complex, yet simple Catch 22. The actual arguments for it can go on “ad absurdum.” In the end, only the self can justify the course of action. Over-abundance of theory. Actual practice or action…..That is different. Colleges are full of professors discussing writing. Do we actually have ” modern” writers…let us ask the
professorsagain. See, Catch 22. It never fucking ends.

Five hundred billion words. More words. More words. But, it all comes down to actual
Action. And that is hard to do. Fucking hard.
There, just added my couple of hundred words to the conversation…

I wish everyone a great day.

theasdgamer
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@ 447

If there’s no human species, there’s no one to read your arguments. Hence, your arguments fail to have any lasting value no matter the end result. Hence, your arguments are ignorable.

theasdgamer
Guest

@ DividedLine

If your goal is just to pass on your genes, you can certainly do this without totally reprogramming your personality

Let’s translate this into BluePillese:

“If your goal is just to pass on your genes, you can certainly do this while remaining a socially-awkward omega low-testosterone incel.”

ChocDoc
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A Man needs to learn PUA Techniques. But it’s also clear that not all men will find women in spite of using PUA Techniques, because some are just not appealing in terms of looking. And the same goes for unattractive women! However…… I just dont understand why so many men are so deppressiv and negativ about women. In the end women are just natural dictated human beeings…just like us men! Every Man needs to learn and understand that first -> RED PILL But where MGTOW are right in some aspects is, that nowadays many women are just not usable for… Read more »

yossarian
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Loquacious today…

So much talk about systems and/or the “system” and so little understanding. I being just a grand buffoon, provide no paradigms or a path to any enlightenment. I enjoy reading your comments. I am saddened by all of our experiences and struggles.” Ecce homo” is all I care to say.
I read Rollo’s blog for strength. And, most of your comments are empowering as well. Thank you lads for helping me and giving me courage.
Godspeed gents!

anon
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ATTENTION YAREALLY (AND ROLLO IF YOU CAN HELP). Rollo, thank you for letting us leave longer comments here. I’m posting this here because CH gets mad at me when I leave long comments at this site. I’m a good (not nice) dude who needs help, please. “People seem wicked, when you’re not wanted.” Jim Morrison, in YaReally-like fashion, told us so. I get it. The positive-attitude contingent of the manosphere—or the comment section of this board, anyway, for those who don’t like that term—makes this point. The bitter betas who complain about women and YKW constantly would be happier if… Read more »

Bromeo
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Going MGTOW is like being in the matrix and taking the blue pill.

anon
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anon
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447, great comment. Spot on.

anon
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anon
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no simon, you had the advantages of not being in generation X, which was royally fucked by you retarded boomers freeing women to destroy themselves and civilization when you boomers failed the massive societywide shit test.

theasdgamer
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@ anon

You’re just another Gen X wuss. Blaming boomers for everything is totally wussified.

theasdgamer
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@ anon

you retarded boomers freeing women to destroy themselves

Yeah, because the 17-27 boomer age group had so much fakking political power in the early 70s that it freed women to destroy themselves. Clueless.

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