The Burden of Performance

performance

 

From Love Story:

Men are expected to perform. To be successful, to get the girl, to live a good life, men must do. Whether it’s riding wheelies down the street on your bicycle to get that cute girl’s attention or to get a doctorate degree to ensure your personal success and your future family’s, Men must perform. Women’s arousal, attraction, desire and love are rooted in that conditional performance. The degree to which that performance meets or exceeds expectations is certainly subjective, and the ease with which you can perform is also an issue, but perform you must.

One of the most fundamental misconceptions plugged-in men have with regard to their intersexual relations with women is the issue of performance. Back in late March of this year I read an interesting article from Roosh, Men are nothing more than clowns to the modern woman and it struck me that although I certainly agreed with him in the context he presented it, there was more to the ‘entertainment’ factor than simple amusement on the part of women.

Women don’t seek out comfort or stability in men anymore—they seek entertainment. They seek distraction. They seek hedonistic pleasure. This is why provider men (beta males) are so hopelessly failing today to secure the commitment of beautiful women in their prime, and this is why even lesser alpha males fail to enter relationships with women beyond a few bangs. Once the entertainment or novelty you provide her declines—and it inevitably will—she moves on to something or someone else. In essence, the only way you can keep a girl is if you adopt the mentality of a soap opera writer, adding a cliffhanger to the end of each episode that keeps a woman interested when being a good man no longer does.

After reading this I tried to imagine myself being a recently unplugged man or a guy just coming to terms with the uncomfortable truths of the red pill and learning that all of the comforting “just be yourself and the right girl will come along” rhetoric everyone convinced me of had been replaced by a disingenuous need to transform oneself into a cartoon character in order to hold the attentions of an average girl.

That’s kind of depressing, especially when you consider the overwhelming effort and personal insight necessary in realizing red pill awareness. Roosh later tempered this with How to be a good clown and Clown Game vs. Good Man Game, and although he clarifies things well in Game terms, the root of the frustration most guys will have with the ‘clown factor’ is that, in these terms and in this context, their performance isn’t who they are.

In this environment it’s easy to see why the MGTOW option seems like an understandable recourse for red pill men. It’s a very seductive temptation to think that a man can simply remove himself from the performance equation with regards to women. I’ll touch on this later, but what’s important here is understanding the performance game men are necessarily born into. Like it or not, play it or not, as a man you will always be evaluated on your performance (or the perception of it).

I think what trips a lot of men up early in their red pill transformation is sort of a sense of indignation towards women that they should have to “be someone they’re not” and play a character role that simply isn’t who they are in order to hold a woman’s interest. I covered this idea in Have A Look and developed how women are like casting agents when it comes to the men they hope will entertain them.

This was really about a sexual context when I went into it, but as I read Roosh’s original article I began to consider that women’s “character” role they expect men to perform changes as their own phases of maturity dictates and their SMV can realistically demand for that phase. In other words the “characters” they want performed in their Party Years will be different than the ones they want after their Epiphany Phase, which may be different than the character they want for their mid-life years.

How realistic it is for men to be that character becomes less and less relevant as women are socialized to expect disappointment from men actually living up to the characters they’re conditioned to believe they should realistically be entitled to at various stages of their maturity.

Living Up

Right about now I’m sure various male readers are thinking, “fuck this, I’m gonna be who I am and any girl who can’t appreciate me for me is low quality anyway.” This will probably piss you off, but this is exactly the blue pill mentality most ‘just be yourself‘ Betas adopt for themselves.

It’s actually a law of power to despise what you can’t have, and deductively it makes sense, but the fact still remains, as a man you will always be evaluated by your performance. So even with a ‘fuck it, I’ll just be me’ mindset you’re still being evaluated on how well ‘you are just you’.

The simple fact is that you must actually be your performance – it must be internalized. In truth, you already are that performance whether you dictate and direct that, or you think you can forget it and hope your natural, undirected performance will be appreciated by women (and others), but regardless, women will filter for hypergamous optimization based on how well you align with what they believe they are entitled to in a man in the context of their own perception of their SMV.

Looks, talent, tangible benefits and other core prerequisites may change depending on the individual woman, but to be a man is to perform. Even if you’re a self-defined man going his own way who enjoys escorts to fulfill his needs, you still need to perform in order to earn the money to enjoy them.

It Doesn’t Get Easier, You Get Better

For Men, there is no true rest from performance. To believe so is to believe in women’s mythical capacity for a higher form of empathy which would perdispose them to overriding their innate hypergamous filtering based on performance.

Women will never have the same requisites of performance for themselves for which they expect men to maintain of themselves. Hypergamy demands a constant, subliminal reconfirmation of a man’s worthiness of her commitment to him, so there is never a parallel of experience.

Women will claim men “require” they meet some physical standard (i.e. performance) and while generally true, this is still a performance standard men have of women, not one they hold for themselves. There simply is no reciprocal dynamic or prequalification of performance for women, and in fact for a man to even voice the idea that he might qualify a woman for his intimacy he’s characterized as judgmental and misogynistic.

Social conventions like this are established to ensure women’s hypergamous sexual strategy is the socially dominant one. Expecting a woman to perform for a man is an insult to her ‘prize status’ as an individual.

From a humanistic perspective there’s a want for a rational solution to this performance requirement, but as I’ve outlined in prior posts, appeals to women’s reason are no insulation against the subliminal influences of hypergamy.

I read many a ‘dating coach’ who’s approach is complete honesty and full disclosure in the hopes that a like-minded, rational woman will naturally appreciate a man’s forthrightness, but this presupposes a preexisting equal playing field where subliminal influences are overridden by mutual rationalism.

The real hope is that women will drop their innate hypergamous performance requisites in appreciation of this vulnerable, inadequate honesty.

What they sweep under the rug is that you cannot appeal to a woman’s reason or sentiment to genuinely forgive a deficit in a man’s performance. Love, reason, both demand a preexisting mutual appreciation in a common context, but neither love nor reason alleviate the necessity of performance for a man.

Women simply are not motivated to compromise hypergamy on their own accord. They will not be reasoned into accommodating a situation of mutual needs by overt means.

It is a Man’s capacity to perform and demonstrate (never explicate) higher value that motivates women to accommodate mutual needs in a relationship – whether that’s a same night lay or a 50 year marriage.

Demonstrating Higher Value

I get the impression that DHV tends to get a bad rap both from blue pill critics as well as red pill aware men. A lot of that gets wrapped up in technique and practice. It’s easy to dismiss this concept as posturing or bluster, but DHV, as a principle isn’t defined by egotistical measures or how well a guy can ‘showboat’ himself around women.

A lot of DHV is unintentional. In fact the best most genuine forms of DHV are exhibited when a Man doesn’t realize he’s actually performing in a way that demonstrate his higher value. This can be as simple as walking int a room in the right context or environment. Even humility can be DHV in the proper context.

What I’m driving at here is that after reading all of this you might think I’m saying you need to be superhuman to qualify for women’s performance standards, and again that’s kind of depressing – that’s not what I’m getting at. A woman’s performance standards are dependent on many varied contexts and according to the priorities she places on the type of character she finds both arousing and attractive and according to what her conditions dictate for her.

It’s not how you perform so much as that you perform. Ambition and personal drive to perform and be the best and most successful you you can be may have absolutely nothing to do with your intention of attracting a woman, but you are still performing and you will be evaluated on that performance.

DHV or DLV is performance whether intentional or not. You cannot remove yourself from this performance equation. You can cease to direct your part in this performance, but until you die you cannot exit the game.

 

 

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

265 comments on “The Burden of Performance

  1. To do the dance in order to get the lay?

    Yes.

    In order to get a family?

    Like, forever?

    No.

    I am running for the “The Price of Pussay is too Damn High Party”.

    PPDHP!!!

  2. Rollo, I always hate you for about twenty four hours after I read a new post. But then I think about it all the next day at work and it begins to make sense.

    Thank you and please continue!

    1. “Do I have to constantly keep this act up? Do I really need to perform at the top of my game indefinitely?

      When can I let my guard down and relax?”

      As soon as ‘your guard’ becomes who you are.

      When you’ve internalized your performance as part of who you are, when it becomes your mental point of origin and the center of your frame control, then it’s no longer an act you must maintain.

  3. Or, as soon as ‘your guard’ becomes ‘if I’m horny and haven’t found an acceptable sex partner at the end of tonight, i’ll just call a trusty escort. so i go out tonight unattached to any outcome.’

    Problem solved.

    See how that works?

  4. @Steven H

    That totally works, I kid you not!

    And, without wanting to dip into the sexual dimorphous species and men die earlier because of intrasexual competition (probably?) pool to much, 100 EUR in my pocket makes me so outcome independent….

    So much healthier too!

    And I am not open to the argument that it is just not the same, because if its just a matter what hoops to jump through, all women , basically, are whores.

    No such thing as free sex.

    If that is so, I would like to know the price and what I get before doing the deed, this hardly is too much to ask.

  5. George, that is some very well-written and well-meaning advice. And I’m grateful that you would condense your knowledge and experience into a succinct paragraph or two, for me to ponder. And I certainly have pondered it, and will benefit from taking care not to pre-reject opportunities, as you say, and remembering to broaden out my focus. It seems you have included an element of relativism, which I am slightly wary of, though. “who’s to say what’s right and wrong, in this day and age?”, etc.
    Anyhow, what I’m referring to as being right and wrong are fairly basic: I loan you $100, you give your word to return it, but don’t. You know you’re wrong, I know you’re wrong, but modern people have a way of rationalising themselves into a nice comforting oblivion (maybe ancient people did too, but I can only speak about those I know). Cheating in marriage is wrong. It’s all pretty rudimentary stuff, and, yes, sexual conquests can of course be wrong, since people can be hurt. Of course, I realise that the predominant consumerist, culture has muddied the waters, but there really is a right and wrong. I could get so much quality tail if I had a big bag of coke in my pocket… there are a million examples of right and wrong we could examine. In times when right and wrong were clearly defined, those who crossed the line were in for a spot of corporal punishment. But maybe you’re right, longing for the good ol days will lead to resentment, bitterness, idealism, etc. As an aside, I like gregg’s comment above.

  6. Orion – “No such thing as free sex.

    If that is so, I would like to know the price and what I get before doing the deed, this hardly is too much to ask.”

    Actually from the feminine point of view that is exactly too much to ask.

    You, and I, want transparent fee and service schedules regardless of the form of currency exchanged. Women want ambiguity and the unfettered ability to rewrite those schedules at their whim. They want you to commit to the purchase without having to first disclose a final price.

    I think that’s the very essence of a dishonest transaction. They think it’s something else.

  7. @ agent p on September 23rd, 2014 at 1:24 pm, and related comments

    “… as if I am dealing with a child that simply doesn’t know herself yet. … but an honest assessment of the situation is, no, she did not actually fully know what she was doing, she was simply following a script, that we all now have a copy of including the directors notes.”

    I think that agent p and those who have disagreed with him are both partially right.

    Agent p is more correct regarding what I will call “dependent damage”, and those who disagree with him are correct regarding “independent damage”.

    It is not unreasonable to think that women are running involuntary biological programs, which are expressed through alpha fucks and beta bucks, and explained to men by various evolutionary theories, and to women by their Rationalization Hamsters.

    Since men are gatekeepers of commitment (and their cocks), they have to choose to participate and thus have “preventative” control (except, of course, in the case of false accusations, and so on).

    Those who choose to marry, or to have children with a woman, but who end up unknowingly raising another man’s child, are not experiencing anything that they have not voluntarily selected (except for the betrayal and the fraud).

    I am calling this “dependent damage”, because experienced damage occurs only if the man learns the truth. Otherwise, the woman has satisfied her biological imperative to secure the best genetics and the best provisioning, and the man is happy being a father.

    I am not saying that this is a good thing from every perspective, and I have significant issues with it personally.

    I am only trying to show that, to this point, the woman could be seen as trying to serve two masters, instead of being malicious.

    On the other hand, when it comes to divorce, especially the frivorce that is practiced now, I do not see any way for a woman to be able to rightly claim that “she did not actually fully know what she was doing and was simply following a script”.

    She must necessarily be aware that there is a problem, if the proceeding is adversarial.

    Even if we allow for the possibility that this is just another chapter in an involuntary script, having her children deprived of a father, or having her husband end up in prison or living in his car is her choice, and not an inevitable outcome.

    I am calling this “independent damage”, because there are no circumstances that would allow the man to continue being unaware and happy, and because men have no control or even influence in this situation.

    Even if her biological program turns off any feelings that she once had for him, she can still make a moral choice, and depending on that choice, we could end up with only two possibilities: 1) that she is not a moral agent (that she is not capable of understanding the choice, because it is undefined to her), or 2) that she is fundamentally a bad person.

  8. Seeing so many people joining in onto the manosphere is getting scary

    Something is definitely really wrong with this country ha

  9. Country? You mean western world. Europe is breeding itself out of existence, women only want to have babies when they reach their late 30s and by then their fertility is not only almost nil, the babies they have are defected.

  10. ”Or, as soon as ‘your guard’ becomes ‘if I’m horny and haven’t found an acceptable sex partner at the end of tonight, i’ll just call a trusty escort. so i go out tonight unattached to any outcome.’
    Problem solved.
    See how that works?”

    But then they won’t be Alpha! aha and PUA think they can bang 8’s and 10s for free when even Kayne West other high-status men like him had to marry the hot women they are married to, to bang them. I guess rich and handsome men haven’t internationalized Alpha game yet.

  11. I am sure that Kanye West has banged his girl for free prior to marriage. This is the case for most of the “Alphas” of the world. The girl was attracted to his Alpha-bravado let’s say and that’s what lead to sex. I am sure that all the hot girls that Kanye has slept with would be open to the possibility of marriage however he made a choice to be with one of them. For whatever the reasons might be, I believe that “Alpha” status social media men, they still live by the same code that beta men live by. Being Alpha does not break away from the fact that they still believe in love, commitment, marriage and family. Being Alpha does not take away the programming. They feel they need to do right by this women that they feel more about. Given the opportunity and time, when they find a new mate there is always a messy divorce and then they move to the next female. Being Alpha does not stop them from feeling entitled to as much pussy as they can possibly get. However, the social conditioning is as present to them as it is to us. Very few have broken away from their social limits and that’s simply because there was never any need to question why and how things work. They simply worked. They were natural at it. Doesn’t mean that what they could inherently do, cannot be learned…

    Also, getting sex for free is a joke. It is not a direct transaction as such but there is always an investment involved. This is not one sided, women do the same thing by investing in nice lingerie, clothes and go out to expensive places to get to be seen by the best males available within her reach. Difference is we have to actively hunt, very rarely the fish will simply jump on our boats. It happens I am not going to lie, but most of the time there is some work invested in it. There is work in the interaction and work prior in the entirety of your life till that point in time. It’s simply a longer and more painful process for men.

    Tough… such is the world though.

  12. This post has focused on a man having to be a performer just to get the woman into bed. The 80/20 rule, more like 90/10, means in this context that the man has the job to approach, the man has to initiate, the man has to open, the man has to keep it going, not too fast not too slow, not too many texts not too few texts, the man has to be amusing, the man has to be interesting, etc etc etc etc. Her job, apparently, is to bat her eyes and try to be entertained while staying on his channel and not changing to some other channel.

    But there is another even more obvious aspect of male performance once in bed (and/or relationship). Again it’s at least 90/10, more like 95/5 or 99/1 in my experience. Let’s make the analogy of a circus. Trying to get the audience into the tent is one thing. Yes doing the parade of attractions down Main Street and putting up advertisements and barking “See the Amazing …” is a hard enough job. But the real performances are under the Big Top.

  13. What if anything do you make of the ‘Third Encore’? To quote Don Felder of The Eagles
    “The third encore was one of the heavenly parts of being on the road that produced a hellish amount of guilt in my life. Before, during and after the show, part of our road crew would go out with bags of buttons—they were like little campaign buttons with a pin on it—and they said “3E” on them, which stood for the third encore, and find the most beautiful women in the arena and invite them back to this party with the Eagles at the hotel. There’d be somewhere between 75 and 150 women. And in those days I was the only married guy in the band. Everybody else was going there like they were fishing for tuna and were just pulling them out, throwing them up on the deck, going back, getting another one, it was out of control.”

    Just another tale of Rock’n’Roll excess? What does it say about women, or men for that matter?
    I mean the Eagles are pretty tame, middle of the road, easy listening music. The sample of women going to those concerts are hardly likely to be self selected, so to speak, in such a way as to elicit the response “Well what the hell do you expect, they might as well be auditioning for a porn film?”

    Imagine it, how often were the 3E buttons declined? What’s if a pretty girl is with her fat friend? I suppose that’s easy dealt with, just give them both a button and, well, see what happens. I wonder how many girls discovered militant feminism the night several girls around her got buttons but she was passed over?

    I suppose 75 to a hundred women is actually a small number given the size of the concerts, maybe the majority of those asked declined.. And those who didn’t initially, did later who knows

  14. re: looks. Nobody can accuse the 5’9″ Frey or “Average Joe” Walsh of good looks. Don “I don’t know why these two underage teen girls are naked in my apartment” Henly was the best looking, but he paid cash for much of his own action.

  15. @Promethean

    “Without religion there is NO controlling women.”

    To me, religion (stupidstitiousness) in our culture mitigates male sexuality more than women. Maybe my perception is incorrect, perhaps I’m mistaken due to limited exposure…but…the religious women I’ve known have been generally more sexually aggressive and their hypergamy more aggressive, especially those raised in strict religious environments. In high school there are more than a few “good Catholic school girls” who climb out their windows at night to fuck guys. One I knew of had guys coming over and climbing through her window after her parents went to sleep. A friend of mine who did said, “She loves to fuck”. They are sewing their “wild oats” as the old cliché says. This is more common than you may think and appears to be universal with women on some level. I think religion in our culture is far more stifling to men’s sexuality while being used to covertly facilitate women’s sexuality.

  16. But then they won’t be Alpha! aha and PUA think they can bang 8’s and 10s for free when even Kayne West other high-status men like him had to marry the hot women they are married to, to bang them. I guess rich and handsome men haven’t internationalized Alpha game yet.

    i’ll assume you’re playing devil’s advocate and don’t actually promulgate that horseshit. so glad you bring up this mindset because yes it is pervasive among lesser men. to that i say this: who cares if it’s ‘alpha’ or not to dial escorts. anyone who worries about that is utterly insecure. men are pathetically trapped in the matrix if giving a shit as to whether or they’re ‘alpha’. obtaining sex doesn’t have to be ‘tough’ either. costs for escorts = tantamount to pocket change for anyone with money. if you’re over 30, live in the western world, and have no money – then what is wrong with you? many guys would rather engage in a ‘struggle for sex’ though, pissing away the lion’s share of their free time mulling it over. do what you want within an ethical framework and move forward with your life. or else play women’s game on women’s terms and constantly ‘check in’ to see how ‘alpha’ you ‘really are’ (appear to others, actually), and constantly struggle and suffer for the same thing with zero additional reward.

  17. @haunted trilobite

    “But maybe you’re right, longing for the good ol days….”

    I think “the good ol days” were not “the good ol days”. I believe we are fooled into thinking so, we indulge nostalgia for something that never existed really, except maybe in stone age culture where many males perished in war or hunting accidents, etc….and the ratio was more in our favor…and male physical strength ruled….who’s to say, I wasn’t there,,,just a hypothesis.

    Today what is, is what is. Before we can deal with it we must first accept its existence for what it is, be aware. Awareness does not and should not include accepting personal subjection to it. Awareness should be enjoyed to facilitate personal gain including better relationships.

  18. ”’ll assume you’re playing devil’s advocate and don’t actually promulgate that horseshit. so glad you bring up this mindset because yes it is pervasive among lesser men. to that i say this: who cares if it’s ‘alpha’ or not to dial escorts. anyone who worries about that is utterly insecure. men are pathetically trapped in the matrix if giving a shit as to whether or they’re ‘alpha’. obtaining sex doesn’t have to be ‘tough’ either. costs for escorts = tantamount to pocket change for anyone with money. if you’re over 30, live in the western world, and have no money – t”

    Nope. I don’t condone legalized prostitution. Its a higher form of honesty. Women always have a price on the vagina. Even the men who are getting ti for free pay for it(gym fees, time wasted competing with other men for female attention, eventual health problems because the taller he is, the more prone he’ll be to be sick in the future etc)

    Prostitution is legalized in most of Northern Europe and I see how much more chill men are when compared to Southern Europe men. Germanic women also know they can’t push men around and that the incentive to marry is very low because German men can just go out and bang a 10 for 200 euros or so. You can spend more than that in one date if you live in Berlin or Hamburg. There is no guarantee that you’ll see the woman again and that’s 200 euros, man.

    I don’t spend the money on hookers because my grandparents lived through the Spanish civil war and what not, so I got that scavenger/cheapskate mentality going on, but I completely understand why men would use their services.

    Alphas, betas, sure they exist. I knew of one guy who had failed 9th some 4 times or so. One day 15 of the girls who were part of his class turned out pregnant. He was the father of all 15 of those kids. Those are the ones who became pregnant. During recess the girls would line-up outside of the boy’s bathroom waiting to get banged by him. You’re going to tell me that a 17 year old boy had game? LOL.

    I knew of other guys too, guys who made the good girls open their legs without breaking a sweat. This guy even got girls pregnant and didn’t help paying the abortion fee.

    Alphas can’t be produced. They can’t be trained. Alpha is not how the man behaves. Is how he looks likes and how much testosterone he has inside of him.

  19. @ George, well, perhaps discounting the back-breaking labour, they were good ol days in at least one sense: disregarding the last 50-100 years, all of our paternal forbears married virginal, loyal, obedient women. As you say, it is what it is today, but by making ourselves aware of the disparity between today and yesteryear, we can hold women to higher standards “look, your grandmother managed without being spitroasted in a toilet cubicle, maybe you can too.”

  20. But life is so much better today if men stop thinking about vagina for a minute. The movie, Cinderella man? Dude was a all-in Alpha male but he was still stuck working to the grave to support a wife and his kids. Gladiator? Another Super Alpha male who got shafted for being a decent man. My ancestors immigrated to our colonies in order to craft a better life for themselves, leaving behind their wives. You think being killed by south Americans was fun, or losing their teeth to scurvy trying to find the maritime pathway to India?

    nah man, vagina is much harder to acquire nowadays if one goes at it via the ”free” route, but life is so much easier. I enjoy not being sent to wars by my king and I enjoy not seeing my family raped and murdered by Mongol invaders.

  21. How realistic it is for men to be that character becomes less and less relevant as women are socialized to expect disappointment from men actually living up to the characters they’re conditioned to believe they should realistically be entitled to at various stages of their maturity.”

    This sentence is way too long too comprehend

  22. “I think the bigger problem now is MEN perpetuating these lies and convincing red pill awakening men that they’re effective forms of Game.”

    And what a tragedy it is. I’ve said this before, but I suspect the guys that adhere to this bullshit just haven’t had it rough enough yet. Maybe for some it will take a ruined marriage, for others getting cheated on — maybe even a number of times.

    How much does a man have to go through before he realizes he’s getting a raw deal? And then to have the blame put on HIM?

    Gaslighting: a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.

  23. @haunted trilobite

    Absolve them of responsibility? Hardly. I never said I absolve them of responsibility at all. No, I said half the time they don’t know WTF they are doing. Yes, I made an analogy to children. Newsflash, I hold my CHILDREN to account for their actions, they are responsible, ignorance is no defence. Be it proffessed, feigned, real or other ignorance.
    It’s just I see lot’s of women make choices and then say, “I just don’t understand why I did that?”. Of course I understand why she did perfectly well. Good choice or bad on their part, ignorance or not, it’s still their responsibility in my view. There is no free pass.

    @gregg
    They may well know what they are doing and are simply usig one of the laws of power to cover their tracks by maintaining ignorance or feigning innocence. My paternalistic attitude towards women should not be confused with naive gullibility. You will note my comments were bookended with a mention of repsecting the animal nature of the beast….

    @george. Exactly, what you said. Being butt-hurt about the TRUE nature of women is a waste of energy and a drain on one’s soul. I enjoy snakes for their power, beauty and ruthlessly efficient design. When they are done they make great leather too. I still don’t “love” them. So it is with women now. I think once one takes the red pill and really buys unequivocally into the basics of evo-bio, it essentially becomes an amoral equation. There is no right and wrong, there is only the execution of the biological imperative programming. Right and wrong is a late breaking human add-in to our basic software. It’s a meta-level set of conditioning and values that sits atop our basic firmware which is amoral. Lots of time the add-in is in conflict with the basic software. This is how we are all here today, the add-in of “morality” and all it’s trappings has gone all buggy and doesn’t do what it’s supposed to anymore so all we get from women these days is the basic underlying bio-software of AFBB and so on.

    @eon. I am generally inclined to agree with your more nuanced assesment of the situation. When I suggested that sometimes we look back in life and realize she hyper-gamed me by going off and fucking alpha dude, let’s say. My point was she may not have understood at the time why she herself went against her own self proffessed set of values etc etc. E.g. why she burned all logic, relational equity, etc on the pyres of “he’s hawt!”. (Yes rollo, I know relational equity is a male illusion, but some women when young, or in days past, could labour under a similar illusion)

    In the context of a guerilla warfare divorce for example, I have no doubt they know exactly what they are doing. yes for some it is a downright malicious scorched earth policy of “fuck him and all who know him.”., It is explicit, is well thought out, it is strategic and tactical, it’s all out war, the collateral damage be dammed.

    If a woman cuckolds a man, yes, I think that is pretty evil, self serving, solopsistic etc and downright nasty. In 99% of cases of cuckolding, I would say they know what they are doing and the man is getting the raw end of the deal, without doubt.

    I think when I said what I did, about “they know not what they do”. It was more in the immediate sense. The solopsistic nature of them leaves them unable to structure their decision making in what we, men, might call a more moral framework. Or moreso they are unable to understand their own more base motivations, it’s shock to many that they would be susceptible to raw animal lust and would make collosally stupid decisions to respond to it. Thus most of them hate the red pillas they hate hearing about their own, raw, unvarnished actual motivations.

    We men it seems are more likely to look at a decision to go bang someone other than our partner on a few more levels then they are it seems. They get lost in the haze of the moment and lose any sense of perspective and become overwhelmed by feewings. (To be sure, this is not a statement of absolution on my part.) Then after they have made some hypergamous decision the hamster gets to work on the rationalization-du-jour, to make her feewl better about what she did, given that she can almost certainly sense that it was WRONG!

  24. @Badpainter

    “I think that’s the very essence of a dishonest transaction. They think it’s something else.”

    Yeah, well, if they are beyond a certain age, who cares what they think?

    I also report with a feeling of great loss that my most favorite of working girls retired, she sucked dick like it was her job.

    Which it kind of was….

    I shouldl have posted this on reddit, I would have made the misoginy olympics…..

    Drats…

  25. @ agent p

    When I first read your comment, it seemed clear and made a lot of sense to me, so I just continued reading down the thread.

    The problem that we have here is that everything that we write can be interpreted in many different ways, depending on the reader’s experiences and knowledge, and thus default context and state of mind.

    So, when I find myself agreeing with both people who are disagreeing with each other, I tend to go back and try to figure out a more “nuanced assessment of the situation”, even if just to clarify it for myself.

    When I accidentally found Redhead, she was a younger (around ten years) woman whose nature, personality and upbringing (home-schooled farm girl whose nonreligious family didn’t allow television) were ideal for a complementary and supportive relationship.

    She is also extremely intelligent, and yet she still (rarely) displays the hardwired female emotional lunacy that, as far as I can tell, actually makes perfect sense to her in the moment.

    My experience has been that women prosper best when treated exactly like children. But this took me a while to internalize fully, because my predisposition was to treat them as sensible adults, and their behavior can seem to support this, for a while, until it doesn’t.

    It has been obvious to me for quite some time that women wanting authority and license is remarkably analogous to a six year old wanting to drive a car, with all of the attendant manipulations and predictable consequences.

    What still surprises me is how many men will acknowledge this, but then whine that women should be more mature (so that men won’t have to maintain control and discipline), which shows that they have missed the point entirely.

  26. Could you please change the tone, somehow, so that reading this stuff isn’t depressing? I understand the red pill is hard to transition to, when you’ve been blue pill, but maybe you could put a positive spin on this… I don’t know, like, how great it is that only men can have true bonds, or something like that. Or how well you are going to do now that you know the truth. Some of you in the comments have done this, and I truly appreciate it.

    I look at women now, and after all the shit I’ve put up with, I truly understand the relationship is temporary, even if it is her desire to marry. I still keep having to stop the “falling in love” feelings (1), and in stopping these feelings I feel sadness, and a memory of the women I have loved that no longer want anything to do with me (even ones I didn’t have one-itis for, that I was hoping would end up as lifelong friends). Come to think of it, I now could have lifelong female friends, because I know not to try and get them to think logically (I was hoping I could relate with them), or have them help you when you’re down, without them losing respect for you.

    Women are actually nice, in many ways. Just don’t break the harmony by trying to show them logical fallacies in their thinking. Be giving when you feel like it, but don’t invest in them. Invest in other men, that are friends you can count on.

    Well, I hope that was positive enough 🙂

    (1) Falling in love is internal. No one else feels it except yourself. Divulging this information to her, should it happen beyond your control, is counterproductive. I won’t go on and explain why. Should she ask, you can tell her that, sternly, that yes, you do love her.

    1. @Meekiner, You just haven’t figured out how you can thrive in your new understanding yet.

      Yes, the red pill can be depressing at first, but the depression comes from having to reinvent yourself in a new paradigm that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s depressing when you look at your red pill awareness from a fem-centric perspective.

      http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/10/the-bitter-taste-of-the-red-pill/

      The truth will set you free, but it doesn’t make truth hurt any less, nor does it make truth any prettier, and it certainly doesn’t absolve you of the responsibilities that truth requires. One of the biggest obstacles guys face in unplugging is accepting the hard truths that Game forces upon them. Among these is bearing the burden of realizing what you’ve been conditioned to believe for so long were comfortable ideals and loving expectations are really liabilities. Call them lies if you want, but there’s a certain hopeless nihilism that accompanies categorizing what really amounts to a system that you are now cut away from. It is not that you’re hopeless, it’s that you lack the insight at this point to see that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.

  27. “Could you please change the tone, somehow, so that reading this stuff isn’t depressing? ”

    The problem is that it isn’t depressing. It simply is. You are operating under an illusion. Becoming depressed is internal.

    In the west being disillusioned is generally taken to be a cause for depression. In the east being dis-illusioned is generally taken to be the path to enlightenment.

    There is your positive spin.

  28. @agent p

    “Being butt hurt by the TRUE nature of women…..”

    We should not disdain women or their true nature. We should be more careful about what we embrace and envision, what we idealize.

    The human mind is extremely creative (male mind at least). I believe this creative ability cannot exist without the mind possessing an extremely impressionable component. Psychologically we are also creatures of habit. These dynamics enable us to make fantastic changes and creations or fantastically fool ourselves. Carefully chosen goals based on realistic awareness leads to success…or…garbage in – garbage out.

    What screws us up with women is not them and hypergamy, it is our misconceptions of ourselves, our expectations and our miss self application due to our acceptance of our conditioning. Hypergamy itself actually has advantages for us if accepted, understood and used to our advantage. If you think you comprehend this but feel even the slightest shame or guilt then you do not comprehend.

  29. George – “Hypergamy itself actually has advantages for us if accepted, understood and used to our advantage.”

    That’s interesting. What are these advantages? Do/can they flow to us individually or only collectively as a species?

  30. One of the hardest lessons I had to learn when I unplugged was throwing away ‘hope’.

    Not real, internal, personal hope, but rather the ‘hope’ I had been led to believe was a realizable state – if circumstances, if personalities, if fate or some other condition defined by the feminine imperative would align, then that feminine defined contentment could be actualized.

    I wanted very much to realize that state by defining hope (or having it defined for me) in a context that was never of my own real choosing. I got just as depressed as anyone else when I unplugged. My own ‘unplugging’ was a gradual affair and came after a lot of drawn out trauma. And yes, to realize all of that trauma amounted to nothing after hoping and struggling to mold myself into something that I was led to believe was achievable it was even more depressing.

    It wasn’t until I realized that the hope I was sold came from the same social paradigm that never had my best interests as a priority that I threw it away. That was a tough day because I realized in doing so I would have to find a new sense of hope for myself.

    One particularly hard revelation I had to disabuse myself of was understanding that women love differently than men. That was tough to embrace because the old hope I was struggling to realize was based on the equalist notion that men and women share a mutual perception of love.

    Once I understood this was an idealization rather than a reality, and that women can and do love men deeply in an entirely different feminine concept of love, I discovered that I no longer ‘hoped’ for that mutuality and embraced the hope that men and women could still love each other from their own perspectives of love.

    I hope that doesn’t sound too fortune cookie, but it’s a prime example of redefining hope in a new red pill-aware paradigm. You can hope and thrive in a new red pill context, I know I do, but it’s much easier when you internalize red pill truths and live with them. I can imagine what my marriage would look like if I hadn’t made the red pill transition and learned to use that awareness in it. There are a lot of guys paying Athol Kay $149 an hour because they never did.

  31. As an example of how much the ancients knew about these matters is that the one thing that did not make its escape from Pandora’s Box was Hope.

    As I am prone to put it, Hope springs infernal.

  32. “… or have them help you when you’re down, without them losing respect for you.”

    Women are not capable of helping you when you are (mentally) down, because they are fundamentally followers and not leaders.

    (If you question whether this is true, observe how female executives and “military officers”, who have been chosen for their ability to mimic men and pretend to have leadership qualities, act in times of crisis, or even in the presence of pressure that should be manageable.)

    And the loss of respect is a secondary effect of evaporation of security and creation of doubt.

    The single most important quality of a leader, during critical times, is the ability to inspire self-delusion in his followers.

    If he enables his followers to convince themselves that, as long as they trust in him, everything will turn out well, then they will be able to function as effectively and efficiently as is possible.

    During such times, any doubts lead to self-reinforcing stress, indecision and a thrashing about that can easily make a borderline situation irrecoverable.

    If you want to have a completely successful relationship with a feminine woman, then you will have to be the leader, a leader who never shows emotional weakness.

    You can cry if your dog dies, you can accept help if you are physically injured, but you should never show loss of resolve or will.

  33. Badpainter from 9/24 at 11:15pm – can’t get that out of my head. that really struck a chord. you have a way of understanding and articulating female duplicity that is unparalleled. it’s racking my brain thinking about how women actually angle and scheme to arrive at a situation in which they can pull the rug out from under an honest man acting in good faith. and i cannot deny that this is exactly what happens a lot, and there is no remorse from the women who do this – suggesting that their motivation, whether cognitive or subconscious, is precisely as you suggest.

  34. Steve H,

    Consider this. There is no motivation whatsoever as it pertains to any one man. There is no fraud because it was never about him, you, or me. There only herself, her feelings and nothing else. We are of no more relevance (and usually less) than a new pair of shoes, a sappy commercial, or a rainy day. We are just objects to reflect back projections of emotion with the frustrating quality of being able to kill whatever mood she was reveling in.

    For me honesty is a big deal. Women aren’t honest, nor are they dishonest, but rather merely sincere. What they say on Friday is true when it is said and there is no certainty that Friday’s statements will be true on Tuesday. The Tuesday revisions will however be every bit as sincere as the Friday statements. Any effort to lock down a durable promise, outside a legally enforceable contract, is therefore insulting because it questions her sincerity by revealing a lack of faith. I was going to say trust, but really they want us to have faith in their sincerity. I want people to trust my honesty. 

    As someone who has trust issues I can say I don’t trust women generally. Now I also don’t distrust them, I simply know there is nothing that can be relied upon to be true for any certain length of time. I do have faith that I will be disappointed no matter how sincere they are because I can’t risk investing trust.

  35. Rollo, you don’t think there are cases where th juice just isn’t worth the squeeze? At some point, jerking off to a hot girl online while working 10 hours a week and traveling 6 months a year versus banging a average 45 yo woman and having to work a 50 hour job you don’t like to pay the bills. I’m young and have an attractive gf but don’t kid yourself if it ever becomes more work then it’s worth I’m not gonna bother. This is what mgtow is for me. It’s about putting yourself first, not others. I think you may not understand mgtow. It’s not that we reject women, it’s that we accept at some point the juice may not be worth the squeeze. So long as I have. Limited number of hours, I am going to prioritize and freedom certainly ranks near the top of my list. I’ll pick freedom anyway over a 45 yo girl. Ps I’m young and banging a 25 yo chick who pays her way.

  36. @eon

    “Women are not capable of helping you when you are (mentally) down, because they are fundamentally followers and not leaders.”

    It is not about women as followers and men as leaders. Every maried man knows that she cohabitates with his woman more/less peacefully only as long as he is doing precisely what she wants. So who is the leader here?

    They are not able to help you when you are mentally down, because they are TAKERS not GIVERS. They are empty vessels, they merely reflect your energy and emotions back on you. They are not able to produce their own light, their own energy. When you are mentaly down, you need the energy and light from others, you are not able to give it.

    But she still expect that from you. Therefore every long term cohabitation with woman sooner/later ends with cold, dry periods and moody woman. It is inevitable. It is liveless for man BEFORE it is liveless for woman. He is tired banging the same aging body, he has tough times in work, he is exhausted providing for children….he unconsciously limits his energy directed towards her.

    She turns cold, so cold that he does not even recognize her. He mistaked his own persona reflected onto him by woman for woman herself. She jmerely reverted to her more natural state..empty, cold, dry vessel.

  37. The male contraception revolution is on the way:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm_under_guidance

    http://www.mtv.com/news/1926484/male-birth-control/

    Recent news articles tell of the current trial that was 100% (!) effective on baboons.

    This appears to be a 100% effective male (and male controlled) contraceptive. Reversible, too! Won’t stop diseases (only a condom has the power to do that). Completely block sperm through the vas deferens by was of a special gel injected in there.

    The manosphere talks about the revolution that will come with male contraceptives. Well, we are at the doorstep of the revolution, gentlemen.

  38. @ Atticus – First off, wow, what a story. You have been through the meat grinder, as I have in my own way. The realization that all your efforts to provide and protect, to love and support and care for those people gains you nothing is hard to accept. I’ve had it demonstrated not only by an ex-wife but also a daughter and two sisters I was a father figure to when after a life of providing and caring, I found myself sick, unemployed and going broke. I couldn’t believe how they turned on me the moment I spit the bit out of my mouth for a minute. Shocking and hurtful in a way that it’s hard to put words to. In a way, I think the fact that this went beyond lovers/gfs/wives was very good for me as it made me go deeper than “pussy”.

    Also, hust know that while I might dismiss your economic arguments on the forum here, at the end of the day, I’m with you. I get how this rattles the foundations of your being. All I can say is that I’m very glad you found this place and are on this journey with us. I can tell you that there is great peace and joy available on this path, just keep on traveling it and you’ll get there too.

    @ Rollo
    “It wasn’t until I realized that the hope I was sold came from the same social paradigm that never had my best interests as a priority that I threw it away. That was a tough day because I realized in doing so I would have to find a new sense of hope for myself.”

    My sentiments exactly. Life is nothing like it once was. But at least I live in reality now. And my sadness/rage/grief over it only exists to the degree that I’m not living in reality and instead clinging to that old paradigm. I keep in mind two points when this happens.

    1. The ‘traditional’ social paradigm was and is no good for me. I found myself longing for a role/standing in the culture that didn’t serve me. That’s crazy and so when I find myself falling into that I just recount what actually happened in my life. Any of you who want that still, just go read Atticus’s account of what happened to him on this thread. Even at the very top of “value”, one slip and he’s gone. Fuck that old world.

    Repeat after me. Fuck chivalry. Fuck courtly love. Fuck romance. Fuck being a gentleman. Fuck “women and children first”. Fuck holding doors. Fuck treating women with “respect”. It’s so liberating to drop all that gynocentric horseshit.

    2. I bring my focus back to me. I get selfish again, and put myself first. I’m so used to looking at myself via a utilitarian context that I often just reflexively put myself last. But I’m getting great at catching it. And now, having done this for a while, I’ve discovered a sense of internal, self-focused motivation that I’ve never had before. I’m also not angry at women anymore when I’m self-focused. I also enjoy what it is women actually have to offer. And it’s also true that just like men, women have varied personalities. Beyond all the dynamics we discuss here, there are still some very nice people in this world who connecting with is fantastic. For me, that’s true for men and women – and now I only spend time with people who are nice. It’s never been just about hotness for me – kindness and sweetness are huge for me too, along with looks.

    I had a date the other night with a mean, angry young women. After 25 minutes I simply said, “Do you think I want to come out here and be with your anger and nonsense? I’m leaving.” That’s it. No drama. I just nexted her and moved on. She’s hot and it’s possible that if I “worked it” I might have been able to get laid as I’d already had a sexual encounter with her that didn’t get to fucking. But to me, that’s no treat. I hate mean, nasty people. In the past this would have been a “story” that I would have to talk about and complain about. I would have felt like I failed or that I wasn’t good enough or been incredibly angry with her. Nope, didn’t need to do any of that. Just figured out that under no circumstances did I want to be with someone so nasty. Easily done and no drama.

    I also find myself focusing on my life and goals in a new and very energized way. Fyi, I’m lifting weights as discussed on previous threads and making real progress in putting on muscle and losing weight. I should be close to my target weight in another 3-4 months. Down 18 lbs and definitely have bigger chest, arms and shoulders are already. People who haven’t seen me in a while do a double take, and of course I get more attention from all women. Funny, the older ones seem to get that I’m hardly interested. I was chatting with a woman about my age after my music gig last night (I’m a singer/songwriter as a hobby). She’s highly unattractive = no make up, plain, grey hair parted down the middle, 20 lbs overweight (what I’m sure she calls “healthy”, lol) and dressed in a dowdy way (standard issue self-entitled, again crunchy woman up here). I could probably get more motivated to fuck Rollo up the ass than I ever could to have sex with. The roles were reversed and she was trying to win me over. I was nice – I actually enjoy speaking with her, so I friendzoned her. Lol. Maybe I’ll have her over to clean my house while I’m out on a date with a hottie…

    My “hope” now? Creating an empowered life and being actualized on my priorities and goals. I’m also freed up now to be the libidinous horndog that I’ve always been but was also ashamed of. As for marriage or provision without reciprocation (i’m generous to women I’m having sex with, no problem)? Absolutely not. I’m here to enjoy my life, on my terms and according to what matters to me. The idea of putting up with the bullshit my married friends tolerate is simply incomprehensible to me. I’m more focused on building my business, building my dream home by the lake, buying that 55′ Gunboat high performance cruising catamaran (http://www.gunboat.com/series/gunboat-55 ) so I can sail around the world and scuba dive in the Sea of Vietnam, writing great music, getting my novels published and enjoying my circle of friends and family on my terms. Getting laid and being with women fits around all that, it and they are not at the center of it. Paradoxically, I think this raises my “value” quite a bit with women.

    Women get it pretty quickly with me now. They get they will never be the center of my life. Those who can’t deal with that move on. The ones who stay actually like me for who I am (not in the blue pill way, I mean they are attracted to me and want me). Only then do I invest. It takes constant nudging and reminding women to keep them in line, but they also know that just like the bratty bitch Natalia I spoke about “nexting” above, I’m ready to move on in a flash if I’m not happy with them.

    Have a great week everyone. See you next post.

  39. Rollo says superbly “the hope I was sold came from the same social paradigm that never had my best interests as a priority.” But I’m sure someone will complain that these ideas are just too hard to express well.

  40. Badpainter lol; “Tuesday revisions will however be every bit as sincere as the Friday statements. Any effort to lock down a durable promise, outside a legally enforceable contract, is therefore insulting because it questions her sincerity by revealing a lack of faith. “

    I eventually took to countering the “if you do X (with/for Mee-eeee), then we can do Y (that you want)” conditional pleading and inevitable defections with
    “No. Your promises aren’t worth the blood they’re written in.”
    Subject closed.

    First few times ofc, got the ragetears and (not always metaphorical) footstamping. But curiously, no actual denial, just accusations of being “cruel” and “mad” for pointing this out (same as I got from about half of my exes, too, which may be a clue har-har-di-har..). Said accusations issued by her because, being disappointed enough to actually GAF, I’d bothered to recall and could point to specific, undeniable and concrete examples (from the remote past). So her reflex “you never do anything I want” gambit fell a bit flat.
    Now she just pouts a bit, mutters “yes, I know ..” and sulks for a day, then gets over it (and on to the next thing ..).

    I suppose one fine day I’ll wake up to find the poultry shears sticking out of my sternum, but such is life.

  41. @Badpainter re: male advantages to the ingrainedness of female hypergamy.
    1. You can Just Be Yourself and give honest signals enabling you to succeed with women, provided you are part of the top 20% (or 10% or whatever).
    2. The ingrainedness make it too easy for any guy to give dishonest signals that enable him to succeed with women, if he is willing to be dishonest, bad etc.

  42. jf12,

    I accept your response without reservation. However…

    You have explained the advantage understanding and acknowledging the reality of hypergamy. That is very different from describing any innate advantage to men that comes from hypergamy.

    Unless what you are saying is that is OK to proceed however one wishes to achieve a desired a result because hypergamy unshackles a man from any responsibility to adhere to principle in the game. In other words the ends justify the means and we can live guilt free as it pertains to our behavior.

    Sorta reduces the value of the prize in my eyes but whatever.

  43. @ gregg, September 26th, 2014 at 6:35 am

    “It is not about women as followers and men as leaders. Every married man knows that he cohabitates with his woman more/less peacefully only as long as he is doing precisely what she wants. So who is the leader here?”

    [I understand the legal ramifications of Marriage / Cohabitation 2.0, and agree that it is only for the brave or foolish.]

    An intimate relationship is precisely about women as followers and men as leaders.

    What you are describing has no leader because it is not an intimate relationship, or even a “relationship”.

    Instead, it is a roommates (with benefits?) arrangement, in which the woman is a bully and the man is a farmed salmon who is still waiting in the tank.

    Women want to be dominated by dominant men, but they despise those who are weak, especially those who think that they can actually get away with doing precisely what women demand.

    It is actually easy to establish a dominant role from the very beginning of a relationship. Once you are certain in your own mind that you will not give in, you simply establish the parameters and then wait for her to submit or leave.

    The relationship can then be calibrated and extended indefinitely, as long as it is mutually beneficial.

    (Women can also respond very positively to situations in which their well-being is ignored, but in addition to being immoral, these can also become brittle very quickly.)

    One problem is that men can be “masculine” in the same way that a woman can seem emotionally overwrought, until she peeks between her fingers to see if she should try another act.

    For women, true submission is psychological and profound, and it is extremely dangerous for a man, especially in the current social environment, to short-circuit this by revealing himself to be a fraud.
    .

    “They are not able to help you when you are mentally down, because they are TAKERS not GIVERS. They are empty vessels, they merely reflect your energy and emotions back on you. They are not able to produce their own light, their own energy. When you are mentally down, you need the energy and light from others, you are not able to give it.”

    Because of her fundamental nature, a woman needs a rock to lean on, needs to feel that when she pulls the covers over her head everything will be okay.

    She can be the rock for her children, for those who are naturally below her. But she can never be the rock, the ultimate source of direction and strength in a relationship, for someone her nature needs to be above her.

    The way that “hypergamy” is being used in the Manosphere tends to obscure a critical aspect, that most centrally it is psychological. She needs someone who is fundamentally above her, essence qua essence, with social position and other qualities being secondary.

    Women can indeed be givers, but only in the way that is possible for them, just like “women can and do love men deeply in an entirely different feminine concept of love”. As Rollo said (above, September 25th, 2014 at 10:38 pm):

    “One particularly hard revelation I had to disabuse myself of was understanding that women love differently than men. That was tough to embrace because the old hope I was struggling to realize was based on the equalist notion that men and women share a mutual perception of love.

    “Once I understood this was an idealization rather than a reality, and that women can and do love men deeply in an entirely different feminine concept of love, I discovered that I no longer ‘hoped’ for that mutuality and embraced the hope that men and women could still love each other from their own perspectives of love.”

  44. @Badpainter re: “hypergamy unshackles a man from any responsibility to adhere to principle in the game”.

    I shiver. This idea is as far beyond “two wrongs don’t make a right” as a SWAT team’s terrorist response is beyond kids playing cops and robbers. I cannot go there. I have returned to the fold, fwiw, if I ever left, so I must say it is NOT “OK to proceed however one wishes to achieve a desired a result”, although you may not achieve the result otherwise.

  45. jf12 – “I shiver”

    As do I since this seems one direction society is moving in.

    jf12 – “… I must say it is NOT “OK to proceed however one wishes to achieve a desired a result”, although you may not achieve the result otherwise.”

    Then there is no advantage to being aware of hypergamy, and no advantage to hypergamy that flows to individual men. Of course I should say it’s the unrestrained hypergamy of the current AFBB model we currently deal with that presents this problem. Once we are back to mud huts it’ll all be OK, and the purely biological advantages will be apparent to anyone capable of even thinking about such things.

    Until then we have to choose the costumes for our performances, and hope our method acting is good enough to get the right reviews from the right people.

  46. @jf12 and @Badpainter

    What kind of moralizing buffoonery is this? Of course an individual can deshackle himself from a society’s obligations if that society doesn’t benefit his interest. Nobody is entitled to anything. Suggesting otherwise is the product of a severely limited mind.

    @ Rollo

    Very fine post. It’s too bad the despairing “looks are everything” trolls come out of the woodwork repeatedly undermining the productive consumption of your work.

    I see this post as an effective counterpoint to the reactionary manosphere which dominates most discussions these days. If one is interested in the greatest good for the greatest number, then one has to consider the unequal burdens that weigh upon certain individuals. This means rather than empowering women to partake in a stacked sexual market, one instead should invest in the development of those most oppressed within it. When societies take heed of the interests of men as a class the results tend to be astounding (see: Socratic Athens, 50’s America). When state and culture conspire against the best interests of those most expected to perform for its benefit then you see bloodshed and chaos.

    I realize that this political view is tangential to the point you’re making but politics are always on topic within the manosphere. I think you are the only person doing justice to the implicit egalitarian assumptions suggested by red-pill wisdom. Maybe your next posts can deliver an indictment of the deterministic HBDers who derail every thread into a “looks are all that matters” circle jerk.

  47. DBMS – “Of course an individual can deshackle himself from a society’s obligations if that society doesn’t benefit his interest. Nobody is entitled to anything.”

    Indeed.

    I say a man has an obligation to unshackle from an oppressive society. The better for him at least.

    Where was entitlement mentioned of implied?

    As for moralizing I do believe some things are absolutely wrong or immoral. Taking advantage of a hypergamy loophole isn’t wrong or right it is practical. Just because something is amoral and practical doesn’t mean I have to like it, sorta like broccoli.

    This started because George said:

    “Hypergamy itself actually has advantages for us if accepted, understood and used to our advantage.”

    I just wanted to know what those advantages were and if the could be realized individually or if they only applied to species writ large. Since no explanation has been offered by George I conjured a possible advantage: freedom from principled responsibility.

  48. ”Very fine post. It’s too bad the despairing “looks are everything” trolls come out of the woodwork repeatedly undermining the productive consumption of your work.”

    What trolls? Someone who speaks the truth is a troll? Mister, I’ve met any ”Gamers” and most of the them failed at getting even average women to give them their numbers. The few gamers who scored had good-looks or were tall. Don’t’ try and say that women are into status or wealth or such other nonsense. I never see beautiful or even average young women with men older than them more than 5 years.

    Women older than 25 do marry men who are significantly wealthier or with more education than them. Doesn’t make them attracted to these guys, it means they want a meal ticket and are willing to put out a few times a month to get it. I know men who could enter a nightclub or any other vagina-venue and they’d get the majority of the women to sleep with them without any effort, and I would love for that to be seen, to see ”PUA”s try to game women with my friends around, LOL.

    Feminism unleashed hypergamy but the mansphere unleashed the all-powerful male hamster. Some people really do believe they can measure up to real Alphas by memorizing pick-up lines or by using ”body language” to signal ”alpha genes.”

    Yeah, I would expect this from teenagers and early 20s men, but it seems the majority of Gamers are mid 30s and upwards, way to have a middle-life crisis. Buy a boat instead, its cheaper and its not pathetic.

  49. @ eon and @rollo

    “It is actually easy to establish a dominant role from the very beginning of a relationship. Once you are certain in your own mind that you will not give in, you simply establish the parameters and then wait for her to submit or leave.

    The relationship can then be calibrated and extended indefinitely, as long as it is mutually beneficial.”

    “Once I understood this was an idealization rather than a reality, and that women can and do love men deeply in an entirely different feminine concept of love, I discovered that I no longer ‘hoped’ for that mutuality and embraced the hope that men and women could still love each other from their own perspectives of love.”

    :)))

    My office handled hundreds of divorces and I know many marriages of my friends, realtives, employees, etc. Nearly all of them followed the same script! The folowing one, phase 4:

    http://www.personalpowermeditation.com/forum/social-dynamics/the-betaization-process/

    There were some exemptions but I have YET to find a marriage defined by abovementioned sentence..where woman ..ehm..”deeply loves” the man her own, ehm..way 🙂

    Do not kid yourself. 🙂

    As far as Rollo is concerned, to clarify the message….I am sure that there IS more to his marriage than he is willing to reveal. He knows way too much about the dark sides of women..this blog is one of the toughest/most accurate as far as hypergamy is concerned.

    How do you think he learned this shit? By observation or from single realtionship with BPD girlfriend that followed his “happy” years? Where his true motivation to write endless blogs about hypergamy stems from? Just from the need of helping others?

    And to the “hope” topic..

    Married men HAVE to do their best to find hope even when circumstances are shitty, just to be able to go on with their women. Our hamster is very powerfull, They are in the prison with creature that disrespects them, they HATE her and they know it, but they somehow have to make it as good as it gets. They seem to be perfectly haaapy for years..than they come to your offcie and tell you that they have not had sex for years, their wife has done this or that. You wonder how is it possible, they looked perfectly normal all those years? Guys have this need to look happy and succesfull, we lie to each other just to look “mr big boss” but behind the curtain..

    One difference between successfull bachelor and married man is that bachelor DO NOT NEED to hold “hope” of womanly “love”..he can afford to see reality as it is and make the best of it for him. Married man has not the option to send his beast away when she is cracking his ballas .. he has children with her, so he MUST find some illusion, other than this served him by society, just to be able not to……kill his wife.

    Ok, enough from me to this topic.

  50. @eon

    one more thing – I noticed that you somehow “divided” marriage and “relationship” with woman. It is ultimately the same, marriage is just further down the line.

    Woman ultimately wants to merge with man, catch him, enalsve him and make him to provide for her and her children. It is her DNA master tape. We all know that “relationship” with woman has stages. If you want the best from woman, it means that you have to hold her in the first acquisition phase – where she is doing everything to catch you.

    You can prolong the acquisition phase with woman..and when she moves beyong it and it starts to be unacceptable, and this time comes for every woman, I just…move away. This is what you are writing about and this is what I am doing sometimes.

    But I do not kid myself that this is the “LOVE”..from her side. She is doing her best to catch and enslave you. It is not even about YOU it is about her . Everything is about HER!!! She IS NOT ABLE of any concept of love towards you, because “love” has to be directed towards others. You simply do not exist for her, you are nothing but a .. tool.

    Do you “love” your tools, eon?

  51. I think I get it!
    For years I have been bitter about this need to “perform” about how this shows that women do not love us as we love etc.. And just now I was reviewing my old relationships and I recalled something. In each of my relationships, prior to meeting the women I eventually fell in love with, I was constantly working on myself, I would get in shape, hang out with friends, explore my environment and work on myself and my music etc. As soon as I would “fall in love” I would slowly drop those activities,I’d focus on being a good bf, I would focus on providing and “being what she wanted” what I thought she wanted, better said.
    But here is my Eureka moment, what I recalled each time was being unhappy, what I recall each time was feeling boxed in and kind of dull.. of feeling trapped.
    Is this what Rollo means when he says our response to women is a conditioning, and that the sadness we get from RP truth is the result of behaving and believing something that is not really our nature, but the result of having someone elses behaviors and beliefs installed into us?
    So I think I finally understand it for myself… the talk of putting yourself first, of “performing” etc is really just a way of saying “you don’t have to do what people say your supposed to do in a relationship- you don’t have to drop everything for her, you don’t have to stop doing what you like and love and you don’t have to kiss her ass”
    In my case I dropped everything for two reasons. One was to do what I thought I was supposed to do.. what I heard women say they wanted from a man, what my mother said a man should be etc.. and the second reason was insecurity. I wanted her to love me, I didn’t want to rock the boat, I was scared of losing her.. so eventually I did. I believed that in order for me to be worthy of her, of her love, I had to go along and give her what she said she wanted, what I was taught she wanted.
    Is this what Rollo and everyone else is talking about? because I think I finally get it. Up to now I have faked my Game, to some extent. I just knew better than to do certain things or did things I knew would make me attractive etc to women. But seeing this now, not only am I realizing there is nothing to be bitter about- I was always happier working on myself and my interests and actually resentful of having to stop them- but that I am actually happier doing this thing women want of us we call “performing”.
    In a way, you are performing, as Rollo says, either way. If you stop and think you can rest, in many ways you are doing so because you have been conditioned to believe, as I was, that you should. That real love meant you could and should.
    Anyway, maybe this is simply me and my personal experience of it, but it makes sense to me.. and I think this has revealed to me something monumental, personally. Maybe other guys have a different experience of it, but this is how I have seen it played out in my life.
    I feel better

  52. @Professor Van Hardwiggs

    Your existence is toxic to self-improvement which is the primary reason for the manosphere. I have seen no evidence that studying Game results in men believing that looks/masculinity don’t matter or that it makes them worse with women. The very fact that you think Game is a series of body language postures or lines indicates you have a very superficial view of the scope of the game literature. Its purpose is to reveal the strategy inherent in human mating dynamics. Understanding and using this strategy is not about canned behaviors being replicated in set conditions. It is about knowing when to make a move and how such a move might be accomplished.

    On the contrary to your crypto-feminist (or reactionary) insinuations. Knowledge and practice of “The Game” encourages intellectual, physical, and spiritual improvement. You should know that your ilk are useless to the vast majority of men who engage with the manosphere.

  53. I actually detect a shift in the manosphere away from “Game” and towards looks fatalism. The idea of “game” was always romantic and hamsterish, as if some awkward man could just practice some lines or routines and start solving his dating problems. PUA at its core was always about men already somewhat advantaged in looks and social skills getting together and scheming to become even more skilled at dating, and other men vicariously living through those men. Basically, there is a market for PUA, but that doesn’t mean PUA works if you’re aren’t as a male already a cut above the pack.

  54. This ^^^^^

    Prof, spend more time reading and less time writing. Spend more time observing and less time judging. The world simply isn’t the way you seem to think.

    There are desirable women all over the media, but how many of them are seen in everyday life? Few. How many women 1-2 points lower than healthy-self-esteem you are seen? Not many. I mostly see fat, resting-bitch-faced, sloppily dressed war pigs, who FEEL they deserve the best in life dished up by Chippendale dancers.

    For 80-90% of us, this stuff isn’t as easy as some of the swordsmen commenting on this blog would have us believe, But likely their definition of hawt is rather loose.

    The red pill is not a silver bullet.

  55. “Your existence is toxic to self-improvement which is the primary reason for the manosphere.”

    Self-improvement is good and all, but is it really the “primary reason for the manosphere”? I’d say the reason the manosphere exists is that a lot of men like sharing and discovering truths about the modern world from a masculine perspective. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.

  56. Let me remind everyone that I started my [September 26th, 2014 at 1:20 pm] comment by stating: “I understand the legal ramifications of Marriage / Cohabitation 2.0, and agree that it is only for the brave or foolish.”
    .

    @ gregg, September 27th, 2014 at 1:33 am

    I was talking about two different topics in my comment, and I separated them very clearly. And yet you still took pieces from each and put them together, as if that can actually mean something.

    Run along and Google “out of context”. Let me know if I need to explain it to you.
    .

    If you have something to say, then state it clearly and completely, here.

    Don’t pretend to be making a sound argument by referring me to an article on some other site, where I am supposed to figure out which parts you think are relevant, and then use them to argue against myself.
    .

    @ gregg, September 27th, 2014 at 1:52 am

    “one more thing – I noticed that you somehow ‘divided’ marriage and ‘relationship’ with woman. It is ultimately the same, marriage is just further down the line.”

    Marriage is a legal / religious concept. Every relationship is not an intimate relationship.
    .

    You wrote: “It is not about women as followers and men as leaders. Every married man knows that he cohabitates with his woman more/less peacefully only as long as he is doing precisely what she wants. So who is the leader here?”

    Since you start by saying “It is not about women as followers and men as leaders”, you probably don’t even realize that “only as long as he is doing precisely what she wants” can be read in different ways in different contexts.

    You seem to think that “every married man knows” that the only possibility is a femdom wife dominating her sissy-boy husband, and that such a lifestyle is actually what all women want.

    Within the overarching paradigms that Rollo has described so well, there are many different, and often competing, paths. I was pointing out a different possibility, and one that I am living.

    It is one in which Redhead is submissive, supporting and loving, in an essentially stress-free (because that is how I manage it) relationship that provides not only safety and security to her, but also the excitement / uncertainty of being dominated in various ways (sexually and non-sexually, and more carefully than she could possibly know).

    I am indeed doing precisely what she wants, and she is doing precisely what I want, which is simply to relax and respond in the way that her nature, and the path that I have selected, are leading her.

    And this has been possible because: 1) she is who she is, and 2) I started out with her as I have described earlier.
    .

    For a complete understanding, context, and even levels within it, are very important.

    Relationships between men and women involve divergent elements that operate in parallel, and which can reinforce or reduce possibilities, as you go forward.

  57. This entire dynamic is a power struggle for control….control of “the relationship”….more specifically control of what relationships will or will not provide.

    I recently met an older man in his early seventies on an airplane, he noticed me reading The 48 Laws of Power (thanks for the referral Rollo, my 15 year old daughter is reading it now). This man had owned an engineering firm contracting with the Navy for 30 years, retired at 55, was in excellent shape for his age, looked at least ten years younger than actual, married 25 years divorced and single for 20. He divorced after the kids were on their own because he was fed of with her and “THE RELATIONSHIP”, enjoying single life, dating numerous women, ditching any immediately that attempted ultimatums or manipulations to start an exclusive LTR. He said he suffered severely from “CDD”, “Commitment Deficit Disorder”.

    This man sat on my right, a girl about 20 to 23 sat on my left reading the latest Cosmopolitan. She looked disgusted and said, “That’s cruel”.

    I said, “Oh sweetie, it’s not his fault, CDD is just a symptom of that horrible disease”.

    “What…disease?”

    “Oh that wretched dreaded disease called freedom”.

  58. Yes, hypothetically this is because open competition between males without laws imposing “equality” eliminated some males. Also, infant males died easier than females without modern medicine and males in the past lived riskier lives. We can argue this helped ensure the health and survival of our species.

    A harem is the ultimate plate spinning scenario. In at least one culture a bitch gets out of line, gets stoned to death.

  59. Gregg –

    Woman ultimately wants to merge with man, catch him, enalsve him and make him to provide for her and her children. It is her DNA master tape. We all know that “relationship” with woman has stages. If you want the best from woman, it means that you have to hold her in the first acquisition phase – where she is doing everything to catch you.

    You can prolong the acquisition phase with woman..and when she moves beyong it and it starts to be unacceptable, and this time comes for every woman, I just…move away. This is what you are writing about and this is what I am doing sometimes.

    But I do not kid myself that this is the “LOVE”..from her side. She is doing her best to catch and enslave you. It is not even about YOU it is about her . Everything is about HER!!! She IS NOT ABLE of any concept of love towards you, because “love” has to be directed towards others. You simply do not exist for her, you are nothing but a .. tool.

    Thank you, very well said.

    Woman apparently experiences “love” as quantifiable only to be manifested in the form of services or provisions. Man apparently experiences “love” as existentially abstract and universal, existing without “corruption” in a sort of psychological ether.

    Man believes love exists for the sake of itself, accepted and expressed without caveat.

    Woman believes her caveats define and constitute love.

  60. @Rollo

    “…women can and do love men deeply in an entirely different feminine concept of love, I discovered that I no longer ‘hoped’ for that mutuality…”

    I have some understanding of gender dynamics as they are described here, but really only from the male perspective, especially the Red Pill perspective.

    I am having trouble (and I think many others are also) recognizing that “women can and do love men deeply in an entirely different feminine concept of love”.

    Perhaps a previous post addresses this in detail, I haven’t found one.

    Would you define for us more specifically, concisely, and comprehensively how woman’s deep love for man (when it exists) is manifested;

    and describe in detail her concept of love as you understand it?

  61. @badpainter

    “What are these advantages? Do/can they flow to us individually or only collectively as a species?”

    Both individually and collectively. For your personal enjoyment of life consider the individual context.

    Women want you (assuming you’re desirable) at least as bad as you want them. They want you to facilitate their goals and desires. Use this knowledge to YOUR advantage.

    You are not obligated to make any commitments and there is nothing wrong with changing your mind about a particular woman for any reason or using her and ditching her however you see fit. This is what they are programmed to do with you.

    Consider your realm to be like a “right to work state” where employees can be legally terminated for any reason whatsoever (except proven violation of a few very specific discrimination laws).

    Consider your realm to be a “right to fuck state”.

  62. George – “Consider your realm to be a ‘right to fuck state’.”

    Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated. Pretty much the conclusion I had reached.

    And then you ask this of Rollo:

    “Would you define for us more specifically, concisely, and comprehensively how woman’s deep love for man (when it exists) is manifested; and describe in detail her concept of love as you understand it?”

    I too would like to have this fleshed out, mostly because my current understanding of Rollo’s explanation leaves me thinking I can live easily and happily without it.

  63. I’ve experienced extreme frustration over the fact that women never seem to think that they should bring “benefits to the table” with regards to a long-term relationship.

    I reasoned that if were really to enjoy equality in relationship, then both parties should incorporate this ideal from the beginning. In so doing, I would always make sure to insist that potential dates reveal the benefits she intends to bring the relationship. Most of the time, it appeared that I caught her off guard. One sentence in this article explains why:

    “Women will never have the same requisites of performance for themselves for which they expect men to maintain of themselves.”

    I’m not sure I’ve grasp all that Rollo intended, but now I know a little more. This is why I consider myself “redpill aware” and not full-blown “red-pill.”

    I can’t unlearn 40 years blue pill behavior overnight.

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  68. I got started here a few days ago, and am working thru all your backlinks from other articles. I’m loving this conversation.

    Small contribution here:

    A man starts off as the “performer” (or the clown?). He does this, because it’s his job to make “offers” to women (who accept/decline). He walks up, starts his “performance.” This forces her into the role of a critic (any guy that has done cold-approach, knows what it feels like to be critiqued). The critic “leans back” and “evaluates,” until she’s hooked… then she becomes a “fan,” leans forward, and the roles are reversed.

    This is a nice example of how a man can/should be both “leader” and “chased” in the same seduction. Depends on what stage he’s in… and if he has a “fan” yet or not.

    I just wrote out an extended version of this here:
    –http://www.daysofgame.com/theory/performers-critics-fans/

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