If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.
One of the more contentious aspects of intersexual competition the early PUAs hit upon was the phenomenon of the AMOG – Alpha Male Of Group – and how ‘that guy’s’ apparent social dominance focused all interaction within a peer group on himself. The AMOG was an easy parody of a guy to hate on for early Game practitioners because his archetype was so relatable for men looking to improve their chances with women they’d never been able to consider before they discovered Game. The nefarious AMOG was their worst cock-blocking villain.
For a recovering Beta experimenting with Game for the first time it was bad enough that the very real, in-his-face proposition of rejection by women was always to be considered, but to have to account for a guy that looked (in his mind) like the typical jock who regularly out-Alpha’d him back in high school seems like an unfair obstacle to need to overcome. I think that a lot of men’s competition anxiety focuses on a very overdramatized caricature of the Alpha ‘bullies’ they were familiar with when growing up.
This characterization is also the basis of the long-clichéd plot of every boy-meets-girl, boy-overcomes-shyness, boy-overcomes-bully-to-get-the-girl story ever told, and not just by Hollywood.
While female written romance stories revolve around multiple suitors for a woman protagonist to tame the most Alpha among them – usually ending with the one who’s a misunderstood asshole to everyone but her – male written romance generally centers on an underperforming Beta male (with a heart of gold) who, through extraordinary circumstance is placed in a position of outperforming all of his previous rivals for his dream girl, or the girl he ‘should really be with’ instead of the shallow girl he thought would be so great. Instead of selfishly abusing his newfound Alpha powers by kicking sand in the faces of lesser Betas, he fashions himself as the hero exemplar of how Betas should act if they find themselves in a similar empowerment.
The stories of Spider Man, Captain America and even Back to the Future follow these male-romance scripts to the letter, but in every case the Beta-with-a-chance has to teach the bully a lesson before he can qualify for the girl’s attention, much less her intimacy. This clichéd story arch is a manifestation of men’s internalized understanding of their burden of performance. And while I can’t entirely assert this is an intrinsic part of men’s own mental firmware, I have to speculate that the fantasy of fulfilling it is part of men’s ubiquitous need to adequately perform for women’s intimate approval.
Regardless, the objective purpose is still to ‘get the girl’.
Examples of this Alpha bully archetype are part of most men’s formative learning. Not all men learn the lesson of the bully (some play the role with relish), but if we hold to the 80/20 rule of the manosphere we’re statistically looking at around 80% of (Beta) men who do. From grade school to high school to college, that guy, the douchebag, the guy who can’t help but actively or passively draw attention to himself, becomes the AMOG – and damned if he’s not the most contemptible bastard (or type of bastard) you know.
I’m highlighting that guy because more often than not he’s less a real person and more a manifestation of the anxiety that results from men’s insecurity about performing adequately for feminine approval. It’s easy to poke fun at the guys you see on hotchickswithdouchebags.com because they’re representations of the bully you hate. They’re the Jerks that every woman loves and every ‘normal’ guy vainly tries to make women rationally understand are the worst possible romantic option for them.
One very difficult hurdle men have in unplugging is getting past what they believe is the emulation of the Alpha Jerk who so regularly outperformed them, if not bullied them – yet, his asshole ways were still undeniably effective with the women he wanted to get with. Thus, for men who come to Red Pill awareness there’s a natural resistance to become that guy.
This AMOG archetype impression is tough to confront for men, but it’s important they do so.
This impression for men is an incredibly useful tool to effect women’s sexual strategy later in life when the woman (or type of woman) he’s held in such high regard and pined to be intimate with for so long finally “comes to her senses” around her Epiphany Phase and accepts him. For men with this AMOG mental impression, that woman’s acceptance comes with a certain degree of (sometimes smug) vindication. He waited her out and finally she’s “realized” what he’s been trying to make her see for so long – he’s actually the ‘perfect boyfriend’ for her.
He doesn’t realize he’s just playing the convenient ‘savior’-provider role women’s sexual strategy has conditioned and prepared him for, but believing his Beta Nice Guy life track has finally won out over the nefarious AMOG in his head is a strong reinforcer of a belief women need him to strongly believe when it’s time to cash in their Beta Bucks chips and her SMV starts its decline.
And therefore those skilled in war bring the enemy to the field of battle and are not brought there by him.
I’m going to flip your AMOG impression upside down now. That AMOG isn’t the one you should concern yourself with.
Most of the first PUAs always suggested a process of containment and isolating your target woman in order to ‘poach’ her from that guy. I understand the proposed isolation idea is to remove a girl you like from her social group, but the effect is really similar to Mate Guarding – isolate her awareness of all other sexual competitors and focus her on yourself.
However, unless you’re making your approaches in clubs or loud bars it’s likely the context you’re working on a woman in isn’t one where an active, in-your-face AMOGing is happening. Isolation becomes a security measure to focus her on you being her best immediate prospect.
Roissy once stated that there are groupies for every male endeavor, I should also add that there are AMOGs in every male endeavor. Every group of nerdy programmers, geeks, chess club, your bowling team and even in your Bible study group, there’s an AMOG. Some are more significant than others, but rest assured, you know him, or you will.
Most men will compartmentalize themselves socially so as to best facilitate their chances of meeting, banging, marrying or otherwise interacting with women. This compartmentalization is really a form of Buffering against rejection, but it’s also a logical social positioning of a man putting himself into an environment where he can (hopefully) excel and be noticed for it.
All warfare is based on deception – Bear this in mind when you enter into a new social group dynamic or an unfamiliar social environment. You are an unknown commodity and therefore your strengths are novel to the group. Your weaknesses (your Beta-ness) will be more obvious than your strengths and thus more easily attached to you.
Playing to one’s strengths usually involves defining a man’s social environments. King Douchebag at a Vegas pool party is excelling in his environment, just as Bobby Fisher is at a chess tournament. One reason less ‘socially adept’ men enjoy more confidence at a ComicCon is because the environment buffers their social deficits, but emphasizes their particular talents. The first mistake most men make when considering an AMOG situation is underestimating the importance of that environment. In high school the environment was probably set for you, but as an adult you’ve got a greater degree of control over it.
Bear this in mind when you’re confronted with a guy “all the girls love”. There’s a tendency on the part of Beta leaning guys to think the AMOG is a ‘natural’ Alpha when in fact he’s really domain dependent on the social environment you share with him. Of course there will always be guys who excel in almost any environment because Hypergamy is universal to women and a ‘hawt guy’ is ‘hawt’ to all women, but remove him from his preferred domain to one you’re better adept in, or, outperform him in his domain with a particular strength or expertise you possess in such a way that he’s forced to acknowledge your skill.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.
The caricature of an in-your-face belligerent AMOG is really a social anomaly, and usually your experience of him is the product of an environment you’re not at home in. Far more common however is the AMOG who is unassuming, affable, and honestly a guy you probably can’t help but like. In fact this likability is his primary appeal. Obvious Alpha superiority combined with even a marginal humility makes for an irresistible AMOG to women.
One of my best friends to this day was a guy I despised when we were in high school. We ended up becoming lifelong friends, but initially I hated him for having such a natural Alpha affinity with the girls I wanted to get with. I actually attribute part of my early 20s sexual success (and if I’m honest some proto-Red Pill awareness) to many of the lessons women’s behavior around him taught me.
Both the nervous Beta and the PUA like to encourage the idea of an AMOG as being the drunk, loud-mouthed frat boy who pushes you aside to get to the girl at the bar you’re sarging (“Step aside McFly!”), but the Alpha Male of the Group to really consider is the guy women can’t stop talking about when he’s not even present. He’s the guy who leaves the room and girls giddily huddle together to agree about how ‘hawt’ he is. He doesn’t even have to be in the group to be the Alpha of it.
The best form of social proof is the unsolicited kind. The kind where women can’t help but talk about a guy, and ask his Beta-chump friends how they can get to know him better.
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.
In the immediate sense, unseating this AMOG would be a challenge only the most exceptional men could hope for. He’s established in his environment and his status and social proof is perpetuated for him within his social group. This situation may seem hopeless, and if your goal is to supplant him you’d have to really consider what the rewards would be in doing so, however there is much to learn from him within your shared environment.
Pose as a friend, act as a spy. Befriending the AMOG may be your best option as it opens you up to his social proof as a peer. You may not replace him in the short term, but if you’re spinning plates as you should, his confirmation of you as a peer will only benefit you. This confirmation will allow you an insight into the dynamics of that social environment. Your ultimate success doesn’t lie in destroying the AMOG, or becoming one yourself, but mastering a shared environment in which your strengths are best applied.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance. The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
This tact is useful for both the in-your-face AMOG as well as the non-direct, status affirmed AMOG. Sometimes proving one’s superiority is simply allowing the mediocre enough time and opportunity to self-destruct. The trick of course is in being prepared to swiftly capitalize on that AMOG’s missteps.
Law 33 – Discover Each Man’s Thumbscrew
Everyone has a weakness, a gap in the castle wall. That weakness is usualy an insecurity, an uncontrollable emotion or need; it can also be a small secret pleasure. Either way, once found, it is a thumbscrew you can turn to your advantage.
In the early part of my career in liquor branding I worked for a very rich man in his mid 60s. This guy had quite the resume of “successes”, but for the greater part they’d come from his self-importance and borrowing money than any real talent of his own. He was the owner, but had a reputation for attention seeking and a love of flattery that bordered on arrogance. Usually this would come at the expense of whomever happened to be outshining him as the master.
He was a consummate AMOG, but with no real legitimacy. At one point we had an important negotiation with a Chinese distributor to get our brands into an Asian market and as he’d typically do he wanted to entertain the reps over dinner after a big trade show we’d met them at. They were impressed with me because I was responsible for the creative side of the company, but even with my own deferential credits to my ‘boss’ he took it as an opportunity to AMOG me in front of his new ‘friends’.
I actually saw this coming (it’d happened on other occasions) and I had a good prior knowledge of the sensibilities of the Chinese from my time in doing casino marketing, so I diplomatically let him hang himself with his self-aggrandizement and bluster at my expense. Predictably the reps were off-put by this and we lost the distribution. The good news was that about a year and a half later I was offered a string of very lucrative branding contracts for several of this Asian company’s holdings (2 of which I still front now) because of this patience and letting my boss implode. And all I did was see it coming and let him convict himself.
Every AMOG has a weakness to exploit. Sometimes discovering this requires a patience most guys simply don’t want to wait around for, but with a bit of tact and attention it doesn’t take long. I think the older a man gets the easier it is to judge the character of others (or it should) – you experience the “types” enough to gauge a predictable character action.
There’s an old, but fantastic breakdown of the classic Boyfriend Destroyer script on RSD Nation. I wont repost it here, but if you take a moment to read the script, the premise is one of breaking down a boyfriend’s reputation by indirectly whittling away at the most predictable areas of contention in most relationships. Emphasize his Beta attributes while leading (not telling) her to consider and appreciate your Alpha attributes.
Yes, it’s bad form, and yes, your efforts would be better applied to new prospective plates to spin instead of working on some girl with a boyfriend. However, it is an excellent study in understanding how to deconstruct an AMOG and learning his thumbscrews.
Amused Mastery isn’t just a technique to hold women’s attention, it’s also an effective tool in defusing an AMOG. Once you have an understanding of that AMOG’s weakness – a penchant for self-aggrandizement, a taste for booze or a kind of woman, lack of legitimate ambition, Beta thinking/behavioral tendencies, etc. – the plan then becomes one of emphasizing those character flaws indirectly by exemplifying counter-strengths to those weaknesses.
Women love a man who Just Gets It, and the best, playful way of expressing that is with Amused Mastery; but it’s even more sexy when that Mastery extends to men who she perceives are your intersexual rivals. This then, by association, compliments her ego for your Amused Mastery of her.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:47 pm
Jeremy
February 5th, 2015 at 11:49 am
… The display of her sexuality I’d prefer got rejected outright, because it’s totally irrelevant attention whoring…. ”
You may recall that when she posted a pic right after I said “come back when you have something to offer us”, my response was to tell her that I dumped a 9 that I had full access to because her personality was unacceptable. IOW, I outrightly rejected her sexuality.
February 5th, 2015 at 12:51 pm
If I could give one single advice to young men…it would be – do not let women mess with your goals, security and future…..build yourself! Mind your own business first, women later.
I knew many amog´s. Many of them are broken, with couple of illegitimate kids, others are married to former top chicks, obeying every command of theirs cos they…do not make enough money, do not have their own security and background. The succesful “amogs”, without exception, share one key trait. They were with women under their own rules, they did not have the need to “prove” themselves if it messsed with their business!
Successful men/amogs never let women mess with their own goals, lives or business. They enetered into and stayed within, the relationships with women only if it was favourable for them. Fought only when they could win!!!
Of course, young men are ruled by their very hormones…shouting at them to do everything to score women. We all were the same, but in my late thirties I can tell you just one thing – there is no woman in the earth that is worth your peace of mind, your happiness and your very freedom.
I have two “amogs” in my company, they obey every fucking command I give them, scarred shitless that I can fire them and their very wives would desert them in a minute. They live in fear, cos they haven´t understood the key rule.
Do you want to be “amog”? OK, if it is advantageous for you, ok. Do you feel good in this role? Does this role mess with your business or not? What do you need to do for this “position”.
My opinion – there is nothing like freedom in your thirties, when you have the financial security, status and do not have to obey anybody nor have to prove anything to aynone. Women are secondary ˇcos you already know and experienced yourself that you eventually grow tired of fucking every single of them. You enter into realtionships with them only if it is favourable for you.
Do not be the slave of FI…use your brain and strenght to have FI be your own little personal slave. Women are great in this position.
Good slave, terrible master…
February 5th, 2015 at 1:00 pm
@Jeremy
In one of those pictures that Kristine posted, my first thought was that she was a tranny. The way the photo made her jaw structure look, it seemed a dead giveaway at first glance.
I didn’t think “tranny”. I thought “Hapsburg jaw from inbreeding”.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:08 pm
Rollo,
I very much appreciate your patience and willingness to make efforts to educate your readership.
For some reason my browser won’t go to the comment you linked to. but I read and understood all your comments as well as the RSD article.
I will address your response to me by pointing to two levels of what I was writing. The surface level, and a meta level.
On the surface, by AMOGing Kristine’s BF I just meant that me and others told her that he wasn’t good enough for her. I was also pointing out as I have in the past that we men are also subject to mating instincts, the expression of which in modern times do not always serve our long term interests.
Zooming out, your brilliant Art of War insights on dealing with AMOGs were not lost on me. Indeed, I was practicing what you taught below the surface. Is it really so inconceivable that I would play with that with the BMOC super AMOG here? :-)
February 5th, 2015 at 1:10 pm
@bp
I did find Kristine’s reaction to being rated a 3 interesting. I wonder what she rates herself? This could help us gage SMV price dysfunction anecdotally.
Notice that all of her pictures were already posted on her designated social media attention whoring account. She’s used to having a constellation of orbiters and “YOUGOGRRRRL!” friends oooohing and clicking “Like” on every picture she posts. This is the SMV inflation we talk about in social media in action, particularly among Millennials.
She’s an HB~4ish tops with the bitch shields of a 7-8. That’s exactly what it looks like. She posts pics here, and expects the typical beta orbiter flood of appreciation. Instead she gets the dead honest truth: she’s below average, and among a bunch of men who will not hesitate to nuke her bitch shields with that fact.
This is exactly what the modern problem of self-perceived SMV inflation looks like.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:31 pm
@Kristine Rose
Kristine, I’m going to nuke you here. It’s healthy if you accept it as brutal male truth. I just now enabled enough javascript in my browser to see that particular picture you said “is not a fucking 3″…
That’s one of the pictures that made me suspect you were a tranny. Those pictures are not in any way flattering to you. They were being absolutely truthful and honest in calling those a “3” when they did so.
So yeah, you may not *be* a “3”, there might be different looks you could try… but based on those pictures, yep.
Overinflation of female SMV, as Sun says, is at epidemic levels in society.
Apologies to you Jack, if you felt I was implying you were encouraging her.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:34 pm
@Sun Wukong
“This is exactly what the modern problem of self-perceived SMV inflation looks like.”
Pretty much, hell I wouldn’t even touch her with Rollo’s d1k lol.
February 5th, 2015 at 1:51 pm
In a country where it’s being ruled by a dictator, you find his photo on every wall, a photo showing him swimming, a photo showing him shooting a bear, a new photo of him everyday. The more photos you find the more you know he’s forcing people to love him.
I guess that was the early from of Facebook.
The epidemic of photo whorring is getting out of control, do be surprised if Facebook develop a section for monkeys and baboons.
Ps
The older you get the more unattractive women seem attractive.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:00 pm
Imagine a man saying this…
“You gals are all just bitter and burned by men if you think I rate a 3. I know I’m much higher than that and have had other women tell me so.”
I’ll also add that no commenter specifically asked Kristine for a picture to prove she was undesirable and therefor her input was unqualified. She posted them unsolicited.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:05 pm
@jeremy
Be careful, you don’t want the poor girl to commit suicide or suing Rollo for enabling online bullying!.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:06 pm
http://instagram.com/_partoftheproblem_/
This is a very self-absorbed young lady. I have no doubt she has issues with her BF’s lack of dominance, only a man more self-important than herself would organically merit her submission.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:09 pm
@Rollo
This is a very self-absorbed young lady.
Understatement of the year, Rollo. Or are you just being nice? You big softie. nudge nudge
February 5th, 2015 at 2:15 pm
@yareally
I do not have a problem with PUA-as, MGTOWs, or any other “group”.
I have a “problem” or in better words “do not respect” men living in lies, men who pursue the goals of others instead of theirs of their own, men who lost “manliness” and a thirst for truth, clarity and freedom and became slaves – to their dicks, FI, roles that society assign them, anything.
I do not respect men who became…women. I do not respect men who lost the “man” within..producing illegitimate children with a couple of women, fucking married women and generally I do have a problem with people causing innecessary pain to others in order to feed their own egos or satisfy their own needs. They lost a “spirit” of men, they became amoral themselves.
If I have to compare a guy jerking off to internet porn and living his life under his rules to married slave, living in fear, who lost every ounce of spirit in the process, scarred shitless from and slaving to, his shrieking beast or to man that need, desperately need to fuck someone and is willing to do ANYTHING to do that, provided it works…I vote for the porn guy.
He at least has some dignity.
Women and life can be enjoyed under some rules, women can be managed WITHOUT becoming one of them. Man can mind his own business and enjoy women…he can live his life without becoming poor slave, amoral beast or bitter women hater. I deeply respect guys who are living, or at least trying to live, that way.
My two cents to this – “who is better” topic.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:24 pm
@Rollo,
It’s insane how people are wiping out their privacy.
Back in the old days people use to fight to keep their lives private, now look at them giving it all up for free. I wonder how would they feel of themselves 20 years later? It’s truly shocking.
February 5th, 2015 at 2:35 pm
“Ps
The older you get the more unattractive women seem attractive.”
Yeah, that’s what I was saying.
It’s a benefit to me because it opens up my sample space to include the demo of working class, non-university indoctrinated, semi rural Christian valued women who are comfortable with their femininity, appreciate my masculinity and at least make some efforts at suppressing their hypergamy. The bottom line to me is if they pass the boner test, and there’s more to that than a pretty face now.
The flip side is that some women who used to seem attractive to me no longer are because I see them as the ‘Cupid STunts’ that they are. That also benefits me.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:05 pm
@jack
I was being sarcastic .
its time to visit the Ophthalmologist.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:11 pm
all the links I posted were simply from her self absorbed twitter:
https://www.twitter.com/prtoftheprob
I didn’t include links to articles such as “advice on how to use makeup to trick employers into hiring you”
I didn’t waste my time trying to learning anything more, such as who her ex-BF is (sorry, my bad, current BF), or if xojane will have an article on the evil RP guys, such as me being a creepy stalker
On SMV inflation my guess is +3
February 5th, 2015 at 3:28 pm
“its time to visit the Ophthalmologist.”
That’s what my GF keeps telling me.
Maybe I got hypnotized by Tony Robbins.
Even so, it didn’t help with my perception of Kristine.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:33 pm
@gregg
Delicious purple pill you’ve got there.
@redlight
I’m gonna have to call +5-+6. I give her credit for keeping her weight down (which potentially puts her at HB4 with her base looks), but I ding her for the goth look which puts her at no higher than a current HB3. Looks like shit. She’s acting with HB7-8 bitch shields though.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:33 pm
She will not age well.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:38 pm
@Rollo
Agreed. Out of curiosity, with your upbringing has your daughter displayed any of these tendencies of “Post Pix, Receive Validation”? Or does having a family like yours actually tend to counteract this toxic aspect of culture so far as you can tell?
February 5th, 2015 at 3:42 pm
Dr. J,
My father was a psychiatrist. When I was under his influence age 18-20, if he thought I was out of whack, he would ask me to ‘examine myself’. Sometimes he was right, and I actually consider examining myself to be a good habit.
I appreciate you heads up about purplism. I find a lot of your posts educational. I’m a hard core INTP and I liked some exploration of that I believe you have brought up.
So no disrespect, but while I have my iconoclast hat on, I’m going to put this out there:
“This is the SMV inflation we talk about in social media in action, particularly among Millennials.”
I’m glad I’m on my way out and that meanwhile I’m OK with relationships within my boomer demo of working class, non-university indoctrinated, semi rural Christian valued women who are comfortable with their femininity, appreciate my masculinity and at least make some efforts at suppressing their hypergamy.
It is my son that I’m concerned for. Having said that, I’m going to call bullshit on this one:
“To me it’s blatantly obvious, men are being shut out of the sexual marketplace en masse,”
That contradicts my own experience despite that bluish tinge about me; every man at my workplace from 20yo up has a woman, some of them PAWs and my 18yo son has a cute GF from a good family.
This meme has taken on such mythical proportions while being observably false, that it kind of looks like a social convention in the ‘sphere that serves some latent purpose. What might that purpose be?
Myself, I’m on board with anti-feminism, but imitating feminist tactics seems a bit weak.
February 5th, 2015 at 3:46 pm
“she will not age well”
I wanted to say that last night but I couldnt . I really felt sorry for her
this is the results of the FI .
February 5th, 2015 at 3:58 pm
@jacklabear
You can’t acknowledge the SMV inflation but deny the lockout. The SMV inflation causes the lockout for the most part. Men tend to calibrate their SMV accurately, but are willing to dip a bit below it to satisfy their sexual needs. So let’s say a guy is an HG5. He’s your average dude. He’s aware he’s your average dude. He’d like to have an HB5+ doesn’t want to fuck less than an HB4 when push comes to shove.
Now let’s say you have an HB4 like our example from earlier in this thread, and she thinks she’s hot shit. She thinks she’s an HB7, maybe even an HB8. Hypergamy tells her to never look below her, and SMV inflation tells her she’s a HB7-8. That HG5 guy would have satisfied her hypergamy and been a good choice for her, but instead she’s now ignoring him for “hawt guyz”. He is effectively locked out from sex with an HB4 unless he wants to trade way way way down. An HG6 would be locked out too. Possibly even an HG7.
You may find isolated examples of this not being the case, but in my experience it’s the general way things work. Dudes are being locked out en masse while women ride the CC trying to score a long term off AF, then generally settle for one of the (now very thirsty) locked out dudes after their SMV starts to fall off a cliff.
AF/BB is supercharged by SMV inflation effectively locking BBs out of the sexual market until women hit The Wall.
February 5th, 2015 at 4:28 pm
@Kristine Rose
You seem like a nice girl (and I’d give you an automatic +1 to your relative HB#, due to my nose fetish – righteous!) and I’m going to give you some advice:
Nail your boyfriend down now, before he wakes up.
Seriously, while I usually counsel men to pursue their interests, the fact of the matter is, if you’re happy enough with him at your age, nail him the fuck down. If your reproductive goals include children (and at your age, you should have made that decision long ago) then start that plan.
Why? Because your chances of getting married to a decent dude, in your demographic, are low and getting lower. If you want that special long term commitment, till-death-do-us-part, IN ANY WAY, this dude is your best chance. In a few scant years your SMV will decline, your girlfriends will talk you into dumping him, and a few years after that you;ll start realizing that men have stopped looking at you as long-term relationship potential.
That sounds hatefully misogynistic, I know. The Food Chain sounds appallingly murderous, too. But they are both harsh truths you must face.
If you have a good thing with an even half-way decent guy, nail him down, devote yourself to him, and do what you can to make him an even better guy . . . without telling him how to do it. Forget the idea that you can do better, even if you can. Your timer is running out and the buzzer is going to sound, and if you don’t have a chair your ass is OUT.
If you like this one, don’t try to trade upward. Keep him. Devote yourself to him. Forget the bullshit about “equal partnerships” and understand that you’re both on the same boat. The ocean is storm tossed and ugly, and your chances of finding a better boat are slim. Make the boat you’re on the best one it can be, and quit worrying about how often and how long you get to wear the captain’s hat.
Your youth and your fertility are going for you. Your looks are too, but they fade. You nail this dude down, fuck him righteously as often as possible, tell everyone you know how crazy you are about him, and whatever it is that makes him feel like Conan, you do that thing. As long as you can. For the rest of your life, if you’re smart.
But if you’re not, you’ll follow the herd and toss him back in a year or so, and then when you realize what a horrific mistake you’ve made you’ll blame it on the 21 year old marketing major from Toledo who took my advice.
Just sayin’, sweetie. Time is shorter than you think.
February 5th, 2015 at 4:30 pm
@Mr T.
… do we want to have this discussion in a serious way? I don’t. However, real-life events give me a non-zero level of concern.
February 5th, 2015 at 4:31 pm
I think that a lot of men’s competition anxiety focuses on a very overdramatized caricature of the Alpha ‘bullies’ they were familiar with when growing up…. Rollo
everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence and beta-tude is a fear of casual social violence; even when said beta is not afraid to engage in socially acceptable or legally sanctioned violence. Which is odd as fuck to me
February 5th, 2015 at 4:32 pm
Sun Wukong,
I’m clear on the theory.
” He is effectively locked out from sex with an HB4″
So what? Those hyperinflated bubble head 4s like KR aren’t even in the market as far as I’m concerned.
I’m not seeing the lockout. 11 years ago I was so blue that they were practically calling ambulances for emergency surgery for my heart defect ha.
Nevertheless, a married woman HB enough to be turning the heads of 20yo men made a point of flagging me down and nicely seducing me, eventually divorcing her husband to move in with me. Unfortunately I was ignorant of shit tests then and when she pulled a big shit test on me, I nexted her instead of dealing with it easily like I could now. Sigh, c’est la vie.
February 5th, 2015 at 4:36 pm
@jacklabear
For further evidence of how this effect works, I direct you to http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/
Start with the section labeled “Male appraisals of female attractiveness”. Men give a more-or-less fair (demonstrated by a pretty normal distribution curve) assessment of female attractiveness. Now, skip down to “Female Messaging & Male Attractiveness”. There’s two things to note here.
1) Female assessment of male attractiveness is not shown as a separate graph, because they don’t want to emphasize how shitty women are towards men.
2) The women are a normal distribution of attractiveness, but the men are not. How could that be the case? Simple: SMV inflation. Women assess a man’s attractiveness based on what hypergamy tells them is attractive. So the further inflated their self-assessment of their SMV is, the lower they rate all the men. Those men experience far lower rates of success, with average guys finding themselves completely locked out if they fall below a certain threshold and aren’t willing to be the guy fucking the horribly disfigured fat chick.
February 5th, 2015 at 4:41 pm
@Sun & Jack:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/01/24/the-new-thin/
February 5th, 2015 at 5:17 pm
Those hyperinflated bubble head 4s like KR aren’t even in the market as far as I’m concerned.
Agreed, and I am ignoring them too because I don’t find them attractive but it misses the point: this effect scales all the way up. SMV inflation affects all women, which means it just gets worse as you go up in actual SMV. In my experience personally, it’s really hard for me (I assess myself as probably HG6-7 overall) to land higher than an HB4-5 consistently.
Now granted, part of that is that I need to work on my Game. I don’t deny that. But my game isn’t bad. I can frankly be a really charming, funny, enjoyable guy to be around. My sense of humor offends women’s sensibilities, yet I can always tell they love it.
I’ve had an unusually honest chick I knew and did photography with go so far as to say that if I worked out hard enough (I was already running and skating regularly at the time as I always have) I could probably approach male model good looks easily. (She was easily an HB7-8 herself, before her lifestyle caught up with her and aged her quick) But it still ain’t good enough.
I’m not seeing the lockout.
I am. I’m experiencing it every time I step in the dating pool. HB4s flock to me with a few HB5s. I still have to apply Game if I want to close them. Everything above that is ignoring me for dudes who simply have amazing natural good looks or spectacular natural game. Not that I’m saying “I’m locked out! I can’t do it!” and giving up here, mind you. I just see how if I don’t learn to apply what PUA material I’ve seen and view things through a Red Pill lens, I’m stuck with HB4s or less because I’ve been priced out of the market by SMV inflation.
February 5th, 2015 at 5:57 pm
@Rollo
Yeah, it’s a herd mentality intended to make sure all of them can be lazy. Don’t you dare reject it or the shame will be rolled out.
February 5th, 2015 at 6:03 pm
Sun W,
I appreciate your efforts to helping me learn.
I actually did read that post when it came out and understood it.
Maybe that site has a lot of (ok)cupid stunts. So just avoid them.
For whatever reason, this lockout phenomenon doesn’t seem to be applying to myself, my son, and most men I see around me. Yes, the fat rate is >65%. That means 35% are not fat. Yes, the competition is higher, but, the black guys take care of the fat bleach blonds. The incels are not visible to me. I guess the conclusion must be that my SMV is above average.
It may be true that the ‘unicorn’ mistress I let go could be seen as a “horribly disfigured fat chick”, but she had enough of those ‘ephemeral’ qualities’ that she passed the boner test for me quite well. Indeed, I seem to be suffering some oneitis. But she did not pass the physical attractiveness threshold I need to commit. It was an unpleasant inner conflict.
“Beyond that, you can make a case for any ephemeral quality that convinces you the girl’s worth your long term investment, but if she’s not hot enough to keep your physical interest, you’re going to look elsewhere to make up for it.”
Correct. OTOH, no woman regardless of hotness has ever held my interest for more than a couple years anyway.
And even if she is hot enough to keep my physical interest, if she is lacking too much of those ephemeral qualities, I will also look elsewhere for them.
Anyway, that relationship was an anomaly for me. I like HBs as much as any other man. In that case, it was about convenience and low self esteem due to a major fall from grace I suffered ten years ago.
I used to enjoy above average compensation as a respected industry leading electrical engineer. After my divorce, and after responding poorly to the shit test by my HB mentioned above, I said to myself, all this professional success is worthless because the money just goes to ungrateful women; I’m not doing it anymore; now it’s all about me. I torpedoed my career, sunk into some seriously hardcore substance abuse that almost killed me, got fired, got evicted a couple times, picked up a conviction for possession. Eventually I decided I wanted to live after all; I want to be there for my son.
It has been a tough climb back up. In 2007 I was sleeping in my car at a truck stop because I was working temp part time labor for $9/hr, when I got arrested for probation violation. I got a full time job still living on $138/week while paying $500/mo child support. That let me move up to living in a tent during Sept and Oct in a back yard full of dog shit. Finally my ex took some mercy on me and subsidized a room to rent for me. Now, I have an engineering job again but at less than half the compensation I used to get. On the plus side, I don’t appeal to women who want money.
If I had found TRP before then, my life would have been a different story.
What I want is the whole package, good looks and those ephemeral qualities I like, in a woman who has old school values. I believe it can be done, I have had some good learning experiences and what I need to do now is work on my game so I can pull it off. And I need to get that damn bankruptcy filed.
February 5th, 2015 at 6:05 pm
Honestly it feels like facing the burden of performance with moving goalposts. I’m willing to work for something every day for the rest of my life, but if inflation consistently pushes the performance requirements up the work starts to feel like futility as it absorbs more and more of my energy and time for less and less benefit.
February 5th, 2015 at 6:09 pm
@jacklabear
The thing is okcupid is working with a huge dataset (on the order of millions), so their information can actually be considered pretty statistically valid for the population at large. In my experience it has been valid. Yes, it’s a good idea to ignore chicks from dating sites, but to pretend that the women you don’t meet through those sites are utterly unaffected by the same dynamics is incredibly naive.
February 5th, 2015 at 6:40 pm
SW,
Yup, you’re right.
I might be less affected because I’m an older generation with a different target demographic.
” I’m experiencing it every time I step in the dating pool.”
I don’t actually consider myself to be in a dating pool. I seem to be good at ‘LTR’ game. That is, my now not insignificant AF vibes combined with my BP comfort/security hue seems to draw long term currently or formerly married women. Perhaps I’m exploiting a niche market. I observed years ago that ‘married women are easy – they don’t have an agenda to land a man, they just want to experience love and passion again’. It probably appeals to other niches of love starved women too. They are not always in that state because they’re unattractive.
February 5th, 2015 at 6:52 pm
The actual lockout issue looks to me not that it’s causing an incel epidemic, but rather lowering the quality of women that average men can get. I understand the consternation with that.
I do agree that the quality of modern young women is circling the drain faster and faster.
As I said, I’m glad I’m on my way out, and meanwhile, a demographic of women, many of whom are of acceptable quality to me, is available to me.
February 5th, 2015 at 7:05 pm
Is it safe to come out of the bathroom now? Has that stupid kid stopped touting for “business” round here?
Stone me, “I’m a little bit this and I can do a bit of that, mah BF needs to Man the Fuck UP!, and you-all need to Man the Fuck UP!, p.s. I don’t mind a bit of wankyspanky uh-huh, btw here’s m’picture ..”
I’m no Gary Glitter. Fuck off back to school or get a job, pet, that’s my advo.
Fuckin hell. 243 elaborately-posed close-up selfies, and not the glimmer of a smile among the lot. Is that the wail of the whistle on the crazy train I hear?
February 5th, 2015 at 7:07 pm
@Tam
“I’m goth.” is nature’s way of saying “You don’t want to deal with my issues. Trust me.”
February 5th, 2015 at 7:18 pm
@jacklabear
Well, let’s be honest here: if a dude’s incel it’s because he just won’t lower his standards enough. It’s different from a chick only in that women won’t go lower than their self-assessed SMV. Hypergamy. Men won’t go lower than the fuck floor they choose below their own SMV.
Incel men are like incel women in that they won’t lower their standards and/or increase their Game enough. Guys have to go far far lower than women do though. Unless a dude is just incredibly repulsive, he’s got options. He just doesn’t want them and probably can’t get a boner for them even if he wants to get his rocks off. Hence porn and a wank instead.
I don’t regard myself as incel, I just decided all my plates fell below the standards I should aim for if I want to feel like they’re worth working on my Game. So I dropped them. But technically that’s what most incel guys probably are.
February 5th, 2015 at 7:19 pm
Goth – the sanctimonious outward expression of the psychic suffering endured by young privileged white folks due to an over abundance of self righteousness and ennui.
February 5th, 2015 at 7:24 pm
@bp
February 5th, 2015 at 7:36 pm
I understand where you’re coming from.
We’re all prisoners of our own device.
February 5th, 2015 at 7:53 pm
@Tam
Oldie but a goodie…
February 5th, 2015 at 7:56 pm
February 5th, 2015 at 8:29 pm
Sun Wukong,
I see your point, you are dealing with SMV inflation.
The Feminine Imperative is somewhat using Supply-Side economics; the government enforces polices to protect their value; like we did for the banks and companies too big to fail.
Women have a supply and men have a demand for sex.The goal of the Feminine Imperative is preserve the value of the supply, not to meet all the demand of men.
The demand is hight but the supply is now devalued; the Wal-Martification of western women. The messaging of Feminine Imperative makes all Di$ney Princesses think they are 8’s even before the girls even enter the market. We are producing 4’s add 5’s that think they are 8’s.
The inflation of SMW drives up the cost to men who are being way over charged. Hypergamy always stays ahead of the cost of living; so every man priced out of the dating market helps artifically inflate the SMV of women.
You are ‘paying’ for 8’s with your effort, money and time; but in reality you are getting the quality of a 4 or 5.
February 5th, 2015 at 8:40 pm
February 5th, 2015 at 8:57 pm
@therhoubbhe
You are ‘paying’ for 8’s with your effort, money and time; but in reality you are getting the quality of a 4 or 5.
Essentially this is what any guy younger than the Baby Boomer demographic is contending with, yes. Doubly so for anyone working the 18-25 year old female market where this kind of hypervalidation is rampant.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:06 pm
The 3 minute mark here might give you guys a giggle.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:07 pm
lol this is why we didn’t let women participate in the old PUA community days. 10 pages of hamster rationalization while men try to logically convince her of shit while she moves goalposts around based on her in-the-moment feels and if anyone disagrees with her feels too much they’re “mean” and out comes the “you probably can’t get laid and think supermodels all have pointy elbows” stuff because you’re clashing with her real-world experience of guys who want to fuck her telling her she’s a 10. It’s all just such a waste of energy because she’s not going to learn anything. No one will be smarter for having engaged in this lol
But I know Rollo let’s them hang out here to illustrate game principles and so in an attepmt to turn this Oprah therapy section into something game-related here are some dynamics going on that made me lol reading this thread (aside from the obvious “that’s not a fuckin’ 3!!” qualification which is classic neg/disqualifying theory in action lol):
First off here’s everything you could want to know about BF Destroying:
The article Rollo linked but with head and foot notes that were left out of the post on the RSD forum:
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/boyfriend-destroyer/
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/boyfriend-destroyer-pt-2/
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/boyfriend-destroyer-pt-3/
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/boyfriend-destroyer-pt-4/
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/boyfriend-destroyer-pt-5/
And here’s another one, again by Tyler, with more:
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/more-on-boyfriend-destroying/
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/more-on-boyfriend-destroying-pt-2/
http://www.bristollair.com/2011/outer-game/pua-techniques/more-on-boyfriend-destroying-pt-3/
And here’s a great one by Harmless that really summarizes everything into a consistent structure…all of this is from the suuuuper oldschool PUA days. Like pre-The Game when Style was still undercover:
http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/cat/In_the_Middle/BoyFriend_Destroyer/269.html
http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/cat/In_the_Middle/BoyFriend_Destroyer/269_2.html
Now no one here is trying to fuck this chick, obviously, but let’s assume that we are, for the sake of a thought experiment in “how would I deal with this situation in real life if I wanted to fuck a girl who’s coming to me asking to analyse her relationship”:
Rollo is applying a lot of this, but I’d say he’s applying it more as a natural result of Socratic questioning and is simply aware of what he’s doing rather than doing it with any real intent behind it…but read his comments and you’ll see these principles being applied in them (again, not necessarily on purpose or with malicious intent, a lot of PUA is just explaining natural behaviors we execute):
“2) It is preferable that you don’t make it appear that you want her to dump her boyfriend. Rather, make the idea appear to be something from within her (more of a Socratic thing, than a direct thing).”
“3) While BFdestroying, you must direct the convo. to make her prompt you to tell her how you would treat a woman. Make her work it out of you, because she’s worked up, **and wants to know if she’s got a fair deal or not.**” (emphasis mine…”what do other people think of my relationship?” is literally the reason she posted here)
“4) You must REFRAME all behaviour to appear like insecure nice guy behaviour. Even behaviour that -WE- as ASFers would use on girls (such as not agreeing to LTR) is to be REFRAMED as being nice guy behaviour, as someone who is too afraid to be decisive and go for what they really want, since they are too afraid that they will lose it once they’ve been emotionally vulnerable (as will be explained below). All behaviour can be REFRAMED.”
Note that the next one she’s also doing to herself by analysing her relationship instead of just enjoying it:
“You are trying to DIFFUSE his outer glossy shell, and give the girl a window into his inner workings, so that he no longer appears “mysterious” in any way. You make her understand him so well, that she likes him more as a person, but no longer has any sexual desire for him.”
And as we all know and are lol’ing about as this whole thread continues, because posting here is the metaphorical coffee date:
““A major point though is that if her relationship to her boyfriend was so good, what is she doing sitting out for coffee with you? This does not need to be stated by you. It is obvious. Your job is to find out what SHE wants from you and how you plan to demonstrate that you can provide it to her through your stories about yourself. Of course you need lots of stories about yourself dealing with women in the same fashion that she likes to be handled herself. This stuff seeps in and makes her think of you as “her type” without you even complimenting her once.” (MrSEX4uNYC)”
Most of the other guys replying to her are violating this principle from Harmless’ posts:
“if you BASH her boyfriend, she will get DEFENSIVE and support him. You’ve just anchored good feelings towards her BF and BAD feelings towards you. Bad idea. This even happens if SHE starts bashing her BF and you AGREE with her.”
Most of you guys are just shitting on her BF, so instinctively this result happens:
“I really am satisfied in my relationship. Really guys, I’ve been honest about everything else, if I wasn’t happy I would just say that! I don’t want everyone to judge my guy over one anecdote that happened like 3 years ago.”
Now her relationship is satisfying and everyone should quit judging him and that was 3 years ago etc. etc. defend defend defend. It doesn’t matter whether she likes him or not, she has to defend him. It’s like when the cop goes to break up a domestic dispute and tackles the guy and then the girl who was just getting beat on attacks the cop. Human nature.
Now again, no one here is trying to fuck her. I know that lol But this is a good example of how our natural approach (to directly AMOG her BF and point out his flaws) will make a girl defend her man or, at BEST, get her to break up with him but not switch to fucking YOU.
Now if this were a real world situation (say a fuckbuddy you were seeing boyfriended up and was trying to blab to you about her relationship drama looking for advice, that’s the least offensive reason to use this stuff I’d say lol) and you DID want to get her to break up with him specifically to fuck you (like Tyler warns “This stuff is more geared towards prompting an actual breakup, than a ONS”), then you would want to avoid ending up in this checkmate situation where she’s on the defensive and you can’t turn it into sex, and instead you would want to follow the above rule plus this rule:
“The second is a thread that describes him as the ideal boyfriend so his faults are amplified. This is a DHV.”
Which when you combine the principles of not talking shit about him, always “defending” him so that she’ll bash him, and building him up as a perfect image he can’t possibly live up to, you end up with something like this from Harmless:
“Then you build up her BF with: “You know what? It sounds like you guys are totally in love. I can totally tell that he’s the PERFECT guy for you and you will ALWAYS be together. In fact, I bet he’ll propose to you soon and you’ll get married and have kids and live in a nice house with a white picket fence. And you know, I just couldn’t live with myself if I ruined the rest of your life with him because he is your PERFECT BOYFRIEND.” Then she starts bashing her own boyfriend (“Well, sometimes he’s mean to me. Blah blah blah”) and you say..”
That starts the gears turning for her to see him as flawed and think she’s observing it on her own. But that’ll just result in this trap Tyler writes about:
“1) When BFdestroying you walk a tightrope between evoking too many bad feelings and having them anchoured to you, and getting the chick to want to dump her BF. Don’t forget that your end goal is to f-close, not to break her up for some other dude to enjoy.””
So we take the above concepts where we don’t talk shit about him and build him up and defend him and reframe everything as coming from insecurity and take away all his mystery (like Rollo’s thing about seeing the mechanics, you force her to see them and ruin their attractiveness), and to avoid her just breaking up with him and being single running free, if we want her to fuck us specifically (or a friend, really, you can build a buddy up this way too), we have to add an alternative.
So like, if you want someone to quit smoking you generally can’t just say quit smoking, you have to give them something else to do with their hands etc. (chew on a straw, eCigs, that kind of thing). Indiana Jones style you have to switch the one thing out for an alternative thing.
But we know if we talk someone UP, she’ll instinctively look for flaws…and we know the reverse is true: if you disqualify yourself, she’ll instinctively look for positives.
And that’s how we arrive with Harmless’ structure here:
“She mentions the BF,
You ignore it.
She mentions him again,
You start three threads going:
One is future adventures projections of you and her having sex. But you use imagery that she can fantasize about (If you don’t know, go read a romance novel) and disqualify yourself. (“Yeah, but that will never happen.”) This raises buying temp.
The second is a thread that describes him as the ideal boyfriend so his faults are amplified. This is a DHV.
The third is a thread that describes you as a horrible boyfriend. You can do it ironically if you want. Basically, it’s a DLV and a false-disqualifier.”
So you see, this stuff is all just understanding how our brains work and applying logic to get the result you want. Those articles were written in like 2003-2004, before The Game when Style was still undercover etc. Like that’s how long we’ve fully understood how this all works. The info is out there for guys who want to learn it. And being aware of it teaches you how to avoid falling into it etc.
Of course we all know none of this will work on this chick because this is the magical NAWALT posting here, as I’m sure she’ll be sure to inform us all…though her “I’m a realist” vibe makes me think she’ll go the route of trying to seem NAWALT by saying “no I actually agree, this would blah blah on me” for approval in the Boy’s Club. …see what I did there? Now whether she responds arguing with what I wrote or agreeing with what I wrote doesn’t matter, I’ve made both options seem low-value lol Use that on a girl’s boyfriend sometime where either action he can respond to her with is reframed to come from a place of low-value.
And like Tyler says:
“I see nothing wrong in attempting to BFdestroy a relationship, because it can hardly be a good relationship if some dude she just met was so easily able to break it up. In the case of a marriage with young children, however, I might not be inclined to use this stuff.”
…which is basically the same conclusion any guy who has abundance comes to. You should be working on being high enough value that other guys don’t trigger your girl’s Hypergamy. ’cause if you ARE the top of her Hypergamy radar, then even Tyler himself knows:
“For HBs in satisfying relationships (ie: getting sexed well, getting emotional nurturing, guy is challenging yet fair) […] no amount of BFdestroying will do shit.”
Which is something I’ve stated a number of times myself from my own experience.
Don’t be sad that you have to be the best possible man you can be to keep your girl…you should view that as a welcome challenge because you should WANT to be your best at all times, for your own pride.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:08 pm
@ManPersonNumber6762
Not going to address the article because it’s flawed from the premise:
“If you act normal and a girl wants to get with you, she will never ‘shit test’ you.”
Right…and if you just act normal your child will magically behave and never push to see what your boundaries are.
Tell it to the guys in /r/relationships/ and /r/deadbedrooms/, Robin Williams and any normal cool guy who’s being divorced or any dad with out of control kids etc. Whoever wrote this article is basing his entire argument around something that is blatantly wrong to anyone who looks at the world around them.
The thing anti-gamers don’t get about why men get hooked on the Red Pill is that what the RP/PUA/etc. teaches explains SO many consistent experiences in their lives that shit like this article contradicts. So it’s not that men read something and get all rah rah about it like it’s the next #likeagirl girl-power campaign but for men. They accept and swallow the horrible tasting pill because what’s written aligns with their experiences. It’s like a frustrated “I hate that this is how it works but man, this is how it seems to really work…that other stuff doesn’t align with my experiences at ALL”.
TRP isn’t about “who can make the most convincing argument”. It’s about what aligns with mass experience of hundreds of thousands of men.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:09 pm
CBT is the only kind of psychotherapy that has been objectively shown to work.
One of the most important things it teaches is not to shoot yourself in the foot by telling yourself irrational things.
“You are ‘paying’ for 8’s with your effort, money and time; but in reality you are getting the quality of a 4 or 5.”
Who you calling ‘you’?
When the married HB flagged me down, seduced me nicely, divorced her husband and moved in with me, I had no game to speak of. It cost very little, in fact she took me out to lunch the first time. She came to my apartment when it was time to do the deed, a free and effortless close. I got a 7-8 with very little time, money and effort.
I met the 4-5 I’m living with now at a class in the unemployment office. She made a point of approaching me. She moved me in with her and her mother and supported me for a while. Of course that set a bad frame precedent that I seem to be turning around since mother died and I’ve learned to up my game including hard dread. But still, it took almost no effort, money or game to get with her, I’m only the second man she has been with, her 20 year marriage ended only because hubby decided he was gay, she has outstanding exclusivity tendencies, she delivered her children by C section (nudge, wink) and I enjoyed fucking her like a rabbit for a year or so.
WTF?
February 5th, 2015 at 9:22 pm
TRP isn’t about “who can make the most convincing argument”. It’s about what aligns with mass experience of hundreds of thousands of men.
Motherfucking this.
All these whiners and bro-knights coming in complaining about AMOGing and poaching need to realize one thing: I wish YaReally and Rollo were fucking wrong. Period. I wish both of them could just be written off as callous assholes without a clue. But they aren’t.
They’ve managed to ignore how the world was described to them and instead see it for how it actually is through actual experience. I know because I had experienced everything they talk about before coming to TRP. Not a goddamn bit of it fails to align with my reality I have experienced. I just needed a consistent model to help me decide what I should do to get laid by women I find attractive, and help me figure out if it’s even possible anymore to find a woman worth a shit for LTR in a heavily feminine primary society. Answers: Game, and most likely not.
If you’re worried about poaching or AMOGing, stop being a bitch and up your Game. Period. Anything else is just taking the Purple Pill because you wanted a sugar coating on your bitter truth. I’m gonna enjoy fucking your wife/girlfriend/daughter while you’re busy living in denial.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:23 pm
Good Christ! She’s got 2 vanity accounts on instagram?
http://instagram.com/swansaredead/
February 5th, 2015 at 9:25 pm
I think Goth K rose is going out tonite to get a gangbang just to prove to herself she is an 8 and guys really loves her.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:25 pm
Word dumpin all over this place, I ain’t gettin fuck ALL done for work tonight lol:
@gregg
“I have a “problem” or in better words “do not respect” men living in lies, men who pursue the goals of others instead of theirs of their own, men who lost “manliness” and a thirst for truth, clarity and freedom and became slaves – to their dicks, FI, roles that society assign them, anything.”
I agree. Every man should choose his own goals. That’s why I’m supportive of friends who enter relationships, as long as they’re aware of the dynamics and potential downsides etc. If a friend wants to marry his girlfriend and is fully aware of the potential legal consequences of that and divorce horror stories and the statistics etc. and he still wants to do it because it’s a goal/purpose to him, then I may think he’s foolish but I’ll support him and hope he’s the statistical anomaly it works out for. But I don’t respect a guy who gets married because he’s unaware of all that stuff and doesn’t REALLY want to do it but his overbearing bride and/or her family push him into it and he’s just going along with other people’s goals for him.
“I do not respect men who became…women”
That’s weird, because you’re using a lot of feels-based shaming language here instead of cold hard logical debate. “I don’t respect those men for acting like women” is the same shit that women do when they say “I wouldn’t have sex with a guy who acted like a jerk”. It’s just an attempt to bully people into acting the way you want them to, which, ironically, contradicts your previous statement about not wanting men to be slaves to roles other people assign them. You do, in fact, want men to be slaves to a role…but that role must be the role that YOU assign them for how a man should behave.
You are literally doing exactly what Feminists do when they slander #womenagainstfeminism…they only support freedom of speech for women, as long as those women are saying the things they want them to say. If they don’t, they’re outcast from the tribe and are shamed into trying to chase Feminists’ validation the same way you’re trying to shame men into chasing yours.
Please, define what being a man is for other men, because it wasn’t retarded enough when Jezebel tried to do it for us. Every man decides for himself what a man is. No one gives a shit about your approval.
“If I have to compare a guy jerking off to internet porn and living his life under his rules”
…as long as “his rules” are “my rules”, right? Because just like Feminists, you want people to be free, as long as they freely choose the same thing as you. You don’t even realize you’re doing this, and this won’t convince you to think about your views, I’m writing this for guys who’ve fallen for this bullying tactic before so they can hopefully see exactly why it’s silly.
“to married slave, living in fear, who lost every ounce of spirit in the process, scarred shitless from and slaving to, his shrieking beast”
I agree with this. I don’t respect this guy either…not because he’s married, but because he’s in that position by a lack of choice. If he were in it by choice he would be thriving in marriage (ie – Brad Pitt with Angelina Jolie thrives).
“to man that need, desperately need to fuck someone and is willing to do ANYTHING to do that, provided it works…”
Whatever works. My moral code is my own, it’s defined by me, not you, and I don’t care if you agree with it or not. Like I don’t know how to make it clear that your opinion isn’t relevant because I’m sure people have told you you’re a special unique snowflake your entire life.
“I vote for the porn guy. He at least has some dignity.”
I respect him if he can GET women and has chosen porn, VS if he’s chosen porn because he’s too scared to go out and talk to women. Again to me it comes down to “is he doing what he’s doing because he wants to and it’s his goal/purpose, or because he’s scared or someone else has defined his goals for him”.
You can’t say you don’t respect men “who pursue the goals of others instead of theirs of their own” and then go on to define the acceptable goals for men. Cognitive dissonance and hamster rationalization…LIKE A WOMAN. Oh the irony. lol
February 5th, 2015 at 9:35 pm
Jezza, That reminds me. The squat was off to the right, after about 22s. I think. Although it’s all changed now. Turn right at the “George Canning”.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:40 pm
@too lazy to scroll up to see who wrote this sorry lol
@Rollo
“Agreed. Out of curiosity, with your upbringing has your daughter displayed any of these tendencies of “Post Pix, Receive Validation”? Or does having a family like yours actually tend to counteract this toxic aspect of culture so far as you can tell?”
Obviously Rollo you should protect your family’s privacy and all that, it goes without saying…but down the road when your girl has made it through her early 20s, please give serious consideration to, even totally anonymously, writing a book or something on raising a daughter (and even your thoughts on raising a son since I’m sure they would be valuable too) while having a red pill understanding of the world.
It could legitimately help a lot of men who’ve swallowed the Red Pill but end up with a kid and are like “I know the absolute worst of human nature, male and female, and society’s bullshit and everything this kid is going to be up against and none of his friends or teachers or anyone is going to be backing me up on it they’re all going to be arguing the FI…how the fuck do I even BEGIN to try to keep this kid on track??” Not to mention the internal struggles when you interact with “pour girls” and how you mentally handle the notion that those are the girls that may be her peer influences when she’s at school or away for college etc.
Again, put your privacy first and don’t do it if there’s any chance of it fucking with your family’s lives…but even a thorough anonymous/pseudonym blog/book would be something that could help a lot of men out.
We know how to get girls now and have relationships on our terms, but you are one of the few consciously aware/observant/objective Red Pill men raising a daughter in this era, presumably in a modern city environment. A lot of men are going to be pursuing the family life as we settle out of the pickup life, and while a lot of the psychology will probably apply, it would be fascinating/useful to hear from a guy who’s going through it to help build some potential guidelines for being a good Red Pill father in the modern era where the FI rules everything and hampers a lot of the old methods of running a family now that fathers are demonized and actively disrespected by society.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:50 pm
I just looked at the link for K rose !
last nite i told her 98% of her relationship is on its last leg . I was wrong ! it was doomed from the start , it shocks me how blind her boy friend is , he fails to see the real her , with all the photos and he cant see ?!
I know some men can be a bit blind but THAT blind ?
in Zorba the greek there is a line that says;
on a deaf man`s door you`re gonna knock forever.
February 5th, 2015 at 9:52 pm
@Rollo
Good Christ! She’s got 2 vanity accounts on instagram?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
Just sayin’.
February 5th, 2015 at 10:04 pm
@jacklabear
I was simply commenting on Sun’s general experience that he is encountering the lowering of quality of women. There are societal and governmental forces affecting the SMV of women; but as Sun says, all you can do is up your game really.
February 5th, 2015 at 10:15 pm
@Sun,
i wonder what other personality disorders she has ?
February 5th, 2015 at 10:34 pm
I understand all that.
What I was calling bullshit on is this image of hordes of incels.
All I got back addressing that is that the quality/effort ratio has deteriorated, and in response some men are going *voluntarily* celibate.
Can anyone do better than that?
February 5th, 2015 at 10:44 pm
re: incel
The only women I’ve been with were a 2, a 2, and a 3-4. And I had to work my ass off to get anything going with them at all, and I’m still a virgin. Timeline went like this:
Puberty — 9 years incel (absolutely NOTHING) — blowjob in a hotel room from a morbidly obese girl (~300lbs) — 1 year incel — 5 days fooling around with the same girl — 4 years incel — hookup with 43 year old 3-4, ended up getting cockblocked at the end, all we did was make out and I fingered her until she came twice, I didn’t even come, she barely gave me a handjob — about 7-8 months incel — blowjob over a month ago from today from another girl who was probably ~300lbs after almost screwing everything up because I had a panic attack when she tried to kiss me and it took me TWO HOURS of trying to explain that I was having extreme anxiety, and her making fun of me, before we even did anything, and by that point I didn’t give a fuck.
And here I am now.
Don’t even get me started on incels. If sex has EVER been a regular, normal part of your life, it is impossible for you to understand what someone like me has gone through.
On top of only having been with extremely low SMV girls, what little I’ve experienced of sexuality has been so few and far between it almost feels like it never happened.
There are probably more guys like me who have genuinely struggled initiating ONS’s with very low SMV girls. It isn’t for a lack of trying — it’s not knowing what the fuck to do and having a massive amount of issues to work through that 99.9% of people on the face of the earth have absolutely zero capacity to relate to or understand.
Is it true that incels are incels because they don’t go for lower SMV girls or they legitimately have no idea what the fuck they’re doing, and even if they do get an idea, they’re working against a unique problem, probably a developmental problem, that guys who experienced sexuality in their teens like a normal human being can’t understand?
However, I realize that being an incel is a dead end. Recognizing you are one isn’t a solution. Even if it’s true that you’re living in a reality that is basically completely different from the people around you, how does knowing that help you?
The answer: it helps you because it signifies to you your INTERNAL REPRESENTATIONS — your inner map, your belief system, i.e. HOW YOU ARE PRODUCING THE PROBLEM IN YOUR OWN MIND.
I have been hanging on by a THREAD lately and have been feeling like I’m losing my fucking mind. Dealing with this sucks. But that brings me to my next point:
———————————
From: “Monsters and Magical Sticks”:
“The combination of internal belief systems (brought about by traumas, suggestions, or what have you), and the repetition of patterns of behavior that reinforce belief systems, simply results in an individual who is stuck and without choice. You must look not at what the world is doing to them, but rather what they are doing within the world based on what belief system and what patterns.
It seems ridiculous that somebody becomes, say, a psychiatrist or a psychologist with years and years of schooling, and spends time telling a patient something obvious such as, “Of course you can be successful. There are opportunities in this world.”
The real problem is how to interrupt the pattern of behavior that continues to reinforce the belief system, and how to help the patient examine their own belief system, to help them acknowledge other choices that are available in the world.”
———————————
Identifying as an incel is a dead-end. But it’s also the blueprint for getting out of it.
“How you know” that you’re an incel is your clue to how you’re perpetuating the state of being an incel.
To know you’re an incel, you need proof. Proof = memories, ideas, etc. The only way to deal with it that I’m aware of is to go directly into those internal representations and release the emotional charge attached to them. Each and every one. For example:
How do you know you went 9 years as an incel? Memories will undoubtedly surface. And they’ll all have emotional charges attached to them. And they all support this belief that “I’m an incel.” This year this happened, that year I felt that, I fucked this up, I fucked that up, etc.
You can tell an incel guy everything about Game in the world, and then blame him for not following through with it.
But trying to learn Game as an incel is like trying to build a house on a foundation of quicksand.
I’ve been realizing lately that in learning about Game I’ve been putting the cart before the horse. Incels like me are a unique demographic.
Guys with girlfriends, guys with wives — ‘blue pill’ guys, no less — are light years away from the day-to-day reality that incels live in. It might as well be another universe.
I’m learning for myself that the idea that I can’t approach women, that I’m going to be a virgin forever, and all this other stuff — they are beliefs that are controlling my reality and making it into something I don’t want it to be.
And if you can’t find a way to change your beliefs, you’re fucked.
Incels online seem to do nothing but complain. But what people miss in their condemnation of that complaining as “whining” is that their complaining is the BLUEPRINT for how they’re creating their problem.
Anything in your mind that has an emotional charge associated with something you DO NOT WANT — that’s a sign that you need to let it go. That’s a sign that that is what you’re holding within yourself: and if you’re holding onto something, your hands are full.
Someone else can say, “Here, you can fuck good looking girls. You can have sex. You don’t have to be a virgin. There’s a way out.”
But how are they going to take hold of that if their hands are full?
I’ve mentioned Faster EFT plenty of times here. I haven’t used it in quite a while. But I’m going to get back into it.
Guys that are frustrated with women and are getting sparse amounts of sex are NOT the same as guys that are literally on the verge of committing suicide over their complete lack of a sex life or inability to connect with women even on any level at all and are completely thrown off by the idea of even how to start.
I was tempted to just post the quote from Monsters, but how fired up I got here is a good example of exactly what I’m talking about. It’s emotionally charged beliefs that are going in the wrong direction —
— even if you’re completely right that you got fucked and you did NOTHING to deserve what you’ve been through, what do you get for being right?
You get to keep telling yourself the story that you got fucked and wear it like a badge of honor. But you’re still fucked, you’re still unhappy and you still don’t have what you want.
If you really want to have a good, regular sex life, let’s say a level of 10 on a scale of 1-10 — but your emotional charge for the reasons that you CAN’T have a good, regular sex life are like a level of 1,000,000 — which one is going to win?
The difference here is recognizing complaining for what it is: internal representations of what they’re complaining about – and if they let go of those representations and change them into something else, the problem will disappear.
This applies to anyone, really. I suppose I’m just the champion of the incels since I’ve identified with it so much in my life. My goal is definitely to let go of that for myself, though.
And in my limited successes, I have. What is a pitiable amount of sexual experiences with unattractive women to other guys has been a tremendous breakthrough for me.
So I have walked the talk in my own way. For a guy who’s never initiated anything sexual at all to do so after a year or so of consistent hard work and self-improvement using the RIGHT TOOLS says a lot. I’m not happy with my impoverished sex life but even getting the little experience I have gotten has probably saved my life by giving me enough hope to keep pushing forward.
The fruits of my labor might’ve weighed about as much as a John Deere, but they’re still fruits.
Yeah, I was trying to be funny there.
Now laugh. Or else. :)
February 5th, 2015 at 11:36 pm
Hi Softek,
I enjoy hearing you grow and make progress.
Your case of incel is atypical because it is driven by a bad case of PTSD.
Reading you above, I’m reminded of me asking you if it is fear stopping you. I believe you responded, but it was the beginning of the weekend, I did other things as usual while not at work, and lost track of the thread. Sorry about that. Which post was it on?
I have noticed lately that you are adressing the issue of fear and this is good tho it still seems to be blocking you from PVI. Might cunilingus be a next desensitivation step for you? You can’t get more in your face pussy than that, and it doesn’t matter if anxiety is making you shrivel. My Dr. agrees it is also a good (original actually) source of probiotics. But you’ll need one who isn’t too fat for that. BTW, the way to fuck a 300lber is from behind. You’ll get as good penetration as with a 26% bodyfat girl and the view is (relatively) better. An economy escort taught me this when I was living on $138/wk and living in the middle of dogshit ;-)
All pussy is good*, some is just a little better than others. I’m with Ben Franklin on this one.
*only if I don’t feel like a rubber is needed. That’s another reason why I do what I do. I hate those fucking things. My definition of a quality woman is one I don’t need to use a rubber with.
February 5th, 2015 at 11:45 pm
@jacklabear
I presume by this you’re looking for something resembling a solid example demonstrating significant portions of men as being involuntarily celibate. Unfortunately, short of lie-detector tests on all men, that’s nigh unprovable. First you’d have to agree on a definition of incel, 3 months without? 6? 12? multiple years? decades? What about situations where guys are in a relationship but sex is being withheld as a weapon for significant periods, shouldn’t that count? Lots of grey area can be found just in the definition of failure to get laid.
I’d submit that the circumstantial evidence for a significant incel population is OJ-Simpson trial overwhelming, a mountain so to speak.
I think you’d agree that in order for the average guy to get laid, he needs coin. Whether he’s hiring a prostitute or not, he needs gas money, utility money, apartment money, money to go out and party. The costs add up and they’re significant. This means you need income. If you look at the BLS statistics for men between the ages of 16 and 24, they’re all above 10%. In fact they get into the 20% range. This might be excusable if you trust BLS statistics, but it’s the BLS that wants the U.S. to actually believe an overall unemployment rate of 5.6% when everyone knows full well that household income has been in steady decline, full-time jobs have never recovered from 2007-09, and government laws requiring companies to spend time/money on benefits are pricing human labor out of the market. In short, as far as coin goes, young people are f-ed. This means the young men won’t be getting laid, because they can’t afford to spend time even looking for women, much less time spinning plates. This actually get’s worse when you include Europe into the equation, because their young-male unemployed population is approaching 50% in some countries.
This gets worse when you consider what society has taught women in the decades leading up to the current situation, which is to never rely on men, and instead use any/all means to provide for themselves. Their presence in the labor market displaces men (whatever equalist arguments we might want to cling to, women working displaces men working). Now, women who provide for themselves are judging their own income as the *zero bound* of their judgement on the value of the men they date. This inflates their own estimation of the men worthy of their attention. No woman making $60k a year is going to want to keep dating a man struggling to bring in $30k, no matter how attractive his dreams for the future might be.
If you compare this to just 30-40 years ago, where it was typical for all men to purchase their first car either during or soon after high school with their own money, hold a job soon after high school, etc. Times have changed drastically. I was essentially completely estranged from my grandfather before he died, partly because a stroke left him a little less than fully aware before I knew him, but also because the man still lived in the 50s, thinking that kids had it easy compared to him. He had no clue just how bad it’s gotten for the young, most people over 50 are mostly clueless in this regard (no offense to anyone here).
Young men don’t have jobs. Hell, young men are literally being taught by the system that if they try to self-employ, they could be arrested for violating some law.
See: http://www.sovereignman.com/trends/teenagers-just-learned-what-happens-when-you-start-a-business-in-america-16056/
Without jobs you can’t gain any of the confidence necessary to be a man. Without a job as a young man your very identity suffers, you have no hope of providing for yourself all that well, much less a woman.
Young men have no jobs. Without jobs, you have no coin, no steady income, and no logistical possibility of getting a woman back to a nonexistent apartment in a nonexistent car, particularly when young girls are more employed, more educated, and more economically catered to by their parents.
Is my circumstantial argument convincing enough of the pervasiveness of the incel?
February 5th, 2015 at 11:47 pm
Ian Ironwood’s comment was right on the money. She better lock down that guy quick. Enough linkage was there to see the guy was halfway decent and SMV +2 above her and well skilled at hitting ?Strip joints (guess he has appreciation for female forms). If she can’t see the logic of Ironwoods advice (which she won’t), then good luck.
The whole drive by event of Kristine Rose was certainly entertaining. And served as a momentary flash of validating The Rational Male precepts. Well done Rollo.
What was with that weirdo poster above (also too lazy to look above) who was spam pasting about how shit testing does not exist. Wrong.
The guy either is the most perfect combination of AF/BB in real life. Or he has never spent more than 8 months in a LTR. Pretty sure it is the latter. Pretty odd. What is the end goal of spewing the BS on this site.
And he deserves the Michael Ginsburg treatment.
February 5th, 2015 at 11:58 pm
@Mr T
If you had the time to waste and not get back (I wasted 7 minutes of my valuable time) you would have linked to her XOjane articles describing her bulimia and depression and how she got over the fact that she affiliated with her friend that felt that being too attractive in her own right was not a big problem and could deal with it. And then the Goth thing, attention whore, Etc.
February 6th, 2015 at 12:10 am
@Kristine Rose
“February 5th, 2015 at 3:47 am
I was just curious what people’s opinions were. That’s all.”
Kristine, that is NOT all and it is obvious. My opinion, you are a horny desperate little thing. I don’t mean this negatively. You are posting your pictures here and writing back and forth with all these guys because you are looking for a lot more than your BF has to offer. You want HIM to let go and let if fly sexually, this would facilitate your letting go, but he is too timid for whatever reason.
If you are looking to meet someone here, forget it. This site is not for that. And most of the Internet dating sites are places where timid people hide behind false profiles of themselves and use the computer / Internet to attempt a half ass effort at meeting people. It is really because so many people are chicken shit, but they tell you, nothing else has worked, they are too busy, they need to filter their options, blaaaaa, blaa, blaa.
You are young and somewhat timid yourself. You’ve had 3 sexual partners. That is not a lot. The average is 6 or 7 in a lifetime and some far exceed that. You are obviously considering something more adventurous especially because you want a threesome with 2 guys. You want to make a change or be more adventerous based on what you are writing here (unless you are just fucking with us).
February 6th, 2015 at 12:21 am
Kristine – a prostitute in the making.
Don’t discourage her, some guys will make use of her.
February 6th, 2015 at 12:25 am
Actually the goodmenproject link was all I really needed to get her story.
February 6th, 2015 at 12:32 am
Haven’t been following the swarm of incels discussion but wanted to address this part:
@Softek
“Don’t even get me started on incels. If sex has EVER been a regular, normal part of your life, it is impossible for you to understand what someone like me has gone through.”
Agreed. A hideous ugly girl can get SOMEONE to stick it in her. But a really low value dude just isn’t attractive even to ugly women because they need a guy slightly higher in value than them (even if it’s only momentarily) to be attracted. Go to like, an anime convention or gaming convention and you’ll find a ton of guys who, if they aren’t physically repulsive, are oozing so much socially awkward beta low-value shit out of every pore that even ugly girls don’t want to fuck them. Combine that with those guys’ FI brainwashing and the general requirement of men to make the moves because girls making the moves goes against their ASD, and those guys are in trouble.
How do I know? I was a virgin till I was 24. Not by choice lol I didn’t even know how to talk to ugly girls, let alone make any kind of moves. No girlfriend, no dates, never even held a girl’s hand till 24. Guys who’ve had any kind of success with women, even shitty ugly women, can’t wrap their heads around what it’s like to be just completely undesired by women.
It’s super fucked up, like in that mode you literally don’t know what the feeling of human contact in the context of a woman seeing any kind of value in you, is like. That’s really hard to describe to like, the female 4 who complains that she can’t find a man but really she just doesn’t want to date the plumber with the bald spot that’s been begging to take her on a date. As an incel you almost feel like just a complete non-entity.
This is my fav piece on what life as an incel is like internally. Some raw shit here that I definitely would’ve related to back then:
http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/confessions-of-a-reformed-incel/
“I suppose I’m just the champion of the incels since I’ve identified with it so much in my life. My goal is definitely to let go of that for myself, though.”
That’s your problem. It’s not that you have to stay that way, it’s that you’ve built your identity around that. People do it all the time: the alcoholic who knows he should quit drinking but everyone thinks he’s so fun when he drinks. The fat girl who won’t stop eating because she’s told herself “I can’t help it!! I have no will-power!” so many times instead of working on developing will-power that to stay congruent to that identity she revels in, her brain says “well you better eat that donut!” etc.
Part of Fight Club’s concept was that the main character had to create a new identity because he was too trapped in his current identity to just walk out of it. A lot of us who got into pickup did the same thing, we had aliases and kind of a Superman/Clark Kent approach to being a PUA for the first years where we allowed ourselves to do stuff as Superman out at the bars that we would never try as Clark Kent at the office. Then over time you learn to merge the two together till it’s all the same.
That’s why Owen Cook chose the alias Tyler Durden, Neil was Style, etc. Tyler was a fucking freak show when he started out. Dude legit has aspergers or something, he was weird as fuck and his weird mannerisms STILL come through to this day because he started out so fucked up. But he threw himself into it and just kept plowing through the pain to get to where he is now. But he was a fucked up little troll when he started out lol
The problem is we don’t just pick positive good helpful comfort zones, we just pick whatever we’re used to. So if you build your identity around “I’m the king of the incels” then if you try to approach a girl you brain will say “hey that’s not us man, we’re king of the incels, we can’t do that” and shut you down VS the guy who’s mental thought loops are more positive like “I talk to every girl I see! Everyone loves me, I’m awesome!”…whether that’s delusional or not is irrelevant, it helps your brain unlock and go “of course I’ll talk to her, that’s who I am, I’m that guy who talks to girls!” I did a ton of affirmations my first few years of pickup, hell I still do them now and then.
The good news is that if you take action and break out of your comfort zone consistently, you’ll create new comfort zones and over time you’ll forge a new identity and won’t fall back into that old identity anymore (or only at rare times when you’re really going through shit or something triggers old painbodies).
So you’re totally fixable. There’s no logical reason you can’t be fixed, you don’t have a special extra impossible “fear of water”, you just have a LOT more mental traps built around that identity that won’t let you out of it. You legitimately may need external help…consume a ton of self-help, do Tony Robbin’s positivity challenges over and over and over, affirmations daily, force yourself to ask people for the time even if you run away after, slowly work your way into doing newbie missions even if you have to extend the time-frame to take months to build them up ( http://puamore.com/wiki/newbie-mission/ ), try BradP’s social freedom exercises they’re built for gradually getting you used to it and his 30/30 program is pretty solid from what I’ve seen ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/243100909/18-Degrees-of-Social-Freedom#scribd ), watch every RSD video on YouTube especially Tyler’s videos about hardcase newbies, etc. It’s not something that’s going to fix itself, and no one gives a shit about fixing it for you because everyone else is worried about their own shit.
It’s something you have to actively work on, but you’re entirely capable of solving it. It’s just gonna’ be a rough road…like think in terms of years, maybe a decade+, not a weekend seminar or a few months of reading.
If people who meet me now could go back in time and meet me when I was a 23yo incel they wouldn’t be able to even recognize me. And I can’t even relate to the mindsets I used to have…like I understand why I had them and I remember what they were like but I can’t relate to them anymore. It blows my mind that I was able to even function with the negative and/or apathetic thought loops (because after a while you get to acceptance where you just accept that you’re going to be forever alone) that I used to have.
No one cares if you succeed at this. In fact, some people will try to keep you from getting out of your comfort zone (“that’s not you, what happened to the You I used to know!!”). But if you really want it, you’ll push through the pain. It’s worth it, and you’ll look back on the pain as a success story. ;)
P.S. I went to strip clubs to help desensitize myself to being around women and being around sexuality lol Even just working up the nerve to ENTER one was like a month of planning and psyching myself up and talking myself out of worst-case scenarios, and I picked one way in the middle of nowhere where no one could possibly know me or see me and I hid in a corner inside terrified hoping no girl ACTUALLY came over to me because I was so nervous, etc. And like a year before I went to the strip club if you had told me I would one day go to one I would have said no way because the concept was terrifying.
I was super repressed, not just with sex but with anything outside of political correctness. I was the perfect feminist-brainwashed little soldier. When I got into PUA I used to stand at my bus stop waiting for the bus to go to the bar and I would swear out loud just saying “fuck…shit…pussy…sexy” like I had tourettes just to get used to saying “bad” words because guys who get laid are comfortable with “bad” words even if they choose not to use them. Like the anxiety and stuff is normal even if it feels like it isn’t.
You’re smart enough to outsmart your brain, but it’ll be the ultimate chess match lol …just don’t blow your $ at the rippers, she doesn’t really love you lol
February 6th, 2015 at 12:42 am
Jeremy,
That is a well developed argument, thank you for taking me seriously enough to make that effort.
But…
About grey areas, you can’t always get what you want instantly on demand. As INTP, my approach is not to make plans, but to recognize opportunities.
“I think you’d agree that in order for the average guy to get laid, he needs coin.”
When I had that fling with the married 21yo sister of my friend when I was in high school, my allowance was about $10/wk. No coin whatsoever was needed to do that.
The GF I’ve been living with for 5.5 years basically paid me to be her live in lover.
“No woman making $60k a year is going to want to keep dating a man struggling to bring in $30k”
We’re talking about getting laid, not dating SIWs.
I could go on, but we are avoiding the issue I originally raised. And that issue is relevant whether or not there is in fact a growing incel problem.
I guess I confused matters by denying an incel problem. My apologies.
I just realized reading your post that my speculation may have merit regardless of the actual validity of the image.
My interest was in the *image* of ‘hordes of incels’, and whether that amounted to the equivalent of a social convention in the ‘sphere serving some ego investment or other covert purpose.
I examine myself repeatedly as Rollo points out things like rejection buffers, painting bulleyes post hoc etc. Is it possible for RP spokesmen to do the same?
In particular is this image of hordes of incels used to justify men doing things with wild abandon that are adding to the underlying decline and dysfunction?
February 6th, 2015 at 12:43 am
@ianironwood
……….”Just sayin’, sweetie. Time is shorter than you think.”
Don’t be fooled. The worst monsters come in the form of some poor pathetic little naive thing that needs your help and advice. All the signs are blatant, goth, BSDM, bulimia, etc. it is all bullshit. If that bitch were that stupid, she wouldn’t have the sense to access the Internet and would be living in a state hospital or dependent on her family for her entire life. The fact is, she isn’t worth the shit she’s made of for LTR and it is her choice. Good grief, you are advising her to lock down the pathetic looser she is currently fucking with while she is sending all of us pictures of herself and writing that she wants a threesome. Pull your head out of your ass. She is prostitute material and nothing more. She just needs a little encouragement to serve that purpose.
February 6th, 2015 at 12:44 am
I can see where you would want to brag about your achievements online. If they qualified as true achievements. But airing your dirty secrets, when they are less than noble, and when you are 23-25 years old is just odd.
Like the spammer linker. What exactly is the end game? To figure out yourself. Not the best way to go about it.
February 6th, 2015 at 12:54 am
@jacklabear
If you can’t find a woman that will have sex with you and can pass your boner test, how are you going to get laid? Upon further reflection, I’d say that’s probably the ultimately case with the options most incels are left with. Periods I have spent in my life where I would truly label myself incel, that was almost always the case. I had options, but I couldn’t get a boner for them if my life depended on it.
That’s pretty much how I’d label incel: a guy that has no options he can get a hardon for, and no ability to attract options that even reach (much less exceed) his Fuck Floor. Hence the reason I don’t consider myself incel: my plates that I dropped were all 5ish. That’s about my Fuck Floor, but really I can’t see staying at my Fuck Floor for anything other than a ONS in a dry spell. If I’m gonna plate and see somebody repeatedly, they’ve gotta be above that floor. Otherwise, my self-esteem starts to take a hit when I find myself going “Christ, is this the best I can do? Is this really it?”
February 6th, 2015 at 12:57 am
@Not Born This Morning Why the vitriol rather than indifference to her plight? Ian Ironwood is em-pathetically giving her practical advice. Lock down that metal head reviewer and it is the best she can do. Ever. An internet check can show he seems decent. I wouldn’t want to be him, but it is certainly good advice for her. And Ian I. is serious. Very good targeted advice. Are you white knighting the boyfriend? She’s the client on the Rational Male thread who comes asking for advice. Just like if she came asking for advice on Athol Kays site or So Suave site. She was given advice.
Although I do think that she should encourage her boyfriend to come here and ask questions about what he should do in their relationship. They you could give him some bro advice.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:00 am
@jacklabear
I am not saying they are all MGTOW incels, they are mating game losers because they are poor, lack education, lack money, and most importantly lack game.
The Japanese government for example is distraught over the financial implications of so many sexless men in their country. It is not by choice for all those men; many are due to decades long recession, debt, and unrestrained hypergamy.
There are many insane governmental policies which unbalance gender dynamics and cause complete fucking chaos; a recent example was the ‘Yes’ still means ‘Guilty” policies they want to enact.
Most men here with game won’t ever need to worry about hangover girl having regret; {unless she is some unbalanced obsessive goth girl with a personality disorder}
Some men will be legal casualties; and many other young men will simply be scared off by the examples made; that courtroom micromanagement of the bedroom does affect the value and costs in the sexual market place. I suppose all you can do is to be aware of the she-wolves and modify your game to compensate for the often shifting rules.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:01 am
@Jack,
This focuses only on the money, but my argument had two conditions for men being men. A job gives purpose and identity as well as money. Listless layabouts have no identity, and are more likely to disqualify themselves from dating entirely.
Limited intellect, which we all possess, implies the existence of blind spots towards the self.
Are you referring to PUAs/poaching/boyfriend-destroying? Are you thinking that this behavior is somehow only motivated by making up for incels?
February 6th, 2015 at 1:03 am
For the record, if you view incel as I defined it above, then yes perceived SMV inflation for women (which is a growing problem) would cause incels to grow as a part of the population. Between this and the employment issues which Jeremy raised, I’ll tell you exactly what you get: Japan. Incel males (herbivores) out the wazoo resulting in desperate females (hunters) that now find themselves unable to get what little sexual satisfaction they seek since they’ve priced so much of the male population out of the market through perceived SMV inflation. And in their case, the female side of the equation eventually gets so desperate the women have started to hit on the men in bars.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:03 am
About “bullying”….
I love this site.
I love freedom of speech and freedom of press.
I love my second amendment right which gives me the right to defend my freedom of speech and freedom of press.
If someone chooses to commit suicide because they don’t like this, then they are helping clean up the gene pool.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:08 am
The evil ugly feminists didn’t only lie to men, they lied to women.
Before that evil , parents used to tell their kids the truth about their physical appearance or attractiveness They would tell a short boy who isn’t attractive to study and work hard to compensate and look for a women who is his equal.
They would tell the average looking girl/woman to be realistic about her looks and there won’t be a prince on a white horse,and try to compensate in other ways
It was all about being honest to them and telling them their true value.
You wonder why so many average looking women are going nuts?! It was their crazy dishonest mothers who always told them they were 10s .all the photos they upload of their faces is a way of telling I am beautiful (deep inside they know the truth) but when that doesn’t work they start by uploading body photos.
Just look at women when they meet each other on the street, the first thing they say is how great you look (despite the fact they both are lying to each other) .
There is no shame with being unattractive but the calamity is when an unattractive person think she/he is a 10.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:13 am
In fact among Caucasian Americans where feminism is strongest and I would bet SMV inflation is strongest as well (it always seems to be a middle class white girl, does it not?), a lot of sources have shown declines in the population similar to Japan already.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/population-white-americans-declining-first-time-ever-what-will-race-look-americas-future-246815
If we were like Japan with xenophobic immigration policies and no border shared with other countries, we would probably already be in population decline. This, in my mind, is strong evidence that there probably is a large and growing block of incels in the population. Some of the decline is probably due to birth control, delay of starting a family, and other factors. But I’ll guarantee you a lot of it is that a lot of dudes just aren’t getting laid at all.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:17 am
@Mr T.
There is no shame with being unattractive but the calamity is when an unattractive person think she/he is a 10.
Absolutely. Additionally it seems that uncalibrated knowledge of your value to the opposite sex is unforgivable in men, but laudable in women according to society. Men better know their place, but women better believe they’re all hot.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:20 am
@sjfrellc
February 6th, 2015 at 12:57 am
@Not Born This Morning Why the vitriol rather than indifference to her plight? Ian Ironwood is em-pathetically giving her practical advice. Lock down that metal head reviewer and it is the best she can do. Ever. An internet check can show he seems decent. I wouldn’t want to be him, but it is certainly good advice for her. And Ian I. is serious. Very good targeted advice. Are you white knighting the boyfriend? She’s the client on the Rational Male thread who comes asking for advice. Just like if she came asking for advice on Athol Kays site or So Suave site. She was given advice.
Although I do think that she should encourage her boyfriend to come here and ask questions about what he should do in their relationship. They you could give him some bro advice.
I lived in your dreamy world of hope and idealism in the past, no more. It is for the frightened and accomplishes nothing. Now, by paying attention to the real net results of my behavior and other people’s behavior I understand and control my life much better. I absolutely was NOT white knighting the boy friend. Do you really think, they would even come close to considering Ian’s advice or yours or anyone else’s or do you just like to play hero?
February 6th, 2015 at 1:20 am
Dr. J,
“Are you referring to PUAs/poaching/boyfriend-destroying? Are you thinking that this behavior is somehow only motivated by making up for incels?”
Touche’
February 6th, 2015 at 1:28 am
The reproduction rate of the developed world, corrected for immigration from 2nd/3rd world countries, shows a rate that is below replacement. If that doesn’t strongly (albeit circumstantially) demonstrate large numbers of incels, what would? Generally the planned pregnancy demographics (upper-middle-class and above) are always below replacement, but the middle-class and lower segment of your population makes up for that. Yet, in the developed world this is not so. There’s plenty of white-trash in America, plenty… but they’re not replacing themselves at the rate they used to. Is that only because of contraceptives?
Or is it because voluntary sex with women has become so rare (for numerous reasons) that more men than ever before (as a percent of the population) are simply involuntarily celibate? I’d argue the latter.
Europe faces watching it’s cultures being replaced by Muslims, there’ve been numerous books written on this. Almost no one disputes the significant declines in native reproduction in Europe combined with the significant influx of immigrants from Arabia. Yet the Muslims have no problems reproducing at above replacement rates, even though their marriage/sex rules are far stricter than for most anglo-saxons. Note, however, that while their rules are strict, they have significant expectations placed on women of putting out when they have been married off, and all women are expected to marry. Muslim men get laid at much greater rates than western men. This holds true so long as they don’t live in under an oligarchic regime that turns every available boner-passing-test woman into a royal concubine (See: Saudi Arabia).
February 6th, 2015 at 1:33 am
For the record… I am not Dr. Jeremy. I am also not the non-avatar lower-case “jeremy”. There are multiple people using this name on Rollo’s comment forum.
Dr. Jeremy is actually better spoken than I am. I presume his Dr title is earned. Mine would not be.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:47 am
@Sun
When some fathers push their boys to become Gretzky or Michael Jordan and at some point when it becomes obvious there is no hope they stop but not when dealing with girls though.
If the girls can’t be Maria Callas they become like hear me roar (check Dalrak).
February 6th, 2015 at 1:48 am
@ Nathan I am absolutely not this Kristine chick. I’ve read RP sites for years, I don’t have “questions” about my relationship, I’m the complete opposite of goth, and there’s no way in hell I would post photos or other identifying information about myself. But honestly, Rollo gets a million hits a month. It’s not that crazy if women post now and then, and it doesn’t make us all the same person. I’ve been busy as hell this week so I haven’t continued posting, but now I’m just perusing to relax before I fall asleep.
@ Softek Save up your money, get your ass to Vegas, drive out to the legal brothel, and bang several pros over the course of a week. Tell them your story so they know how to treat you. Get it our of your system, with hot pros. Exposure therapy. Seriously. You need to face your fears, realize that whatever you fear isn’t actually that bad, and grind down your anxiety by experiencing what makes you anxious and realizing it won’t kill you and isn’t really that big of a deal. The pros are paid well and tested to be clean, it’s a fair transaction, no gets hurt or exploited, and no one ever needs to know about it. They’re just girls, it’s just sex, and it’s hard to believe you’ve had such extreme troubles unless you’re also morbidly obese yourself. If that’s the case, time for gastro bypass. If not, it’s all in your head and you need to get out of it and into some actual vaginas. When you’re done with the pros and you’ve reduced your girlphobia, do the same with some drunk easy targets who are slutted up but non-pros in Vegas proper. After that you can move on to normal women in your normal life.
February 6th, 2015 at 1:49 am
Sun Wukong – “Additionally it seems that uncalibrated knowledge of your value to the opposite sex is unforgivable in men, but laudable in women according to society.”
Not just lauded but embraced, advoated, and fully subsidized. Fat acceptance, and the constant effort to sell career and education as substitutes for attractive (both sexual, and general) qualities in the absence of anything else have not just created inflation but redefined the market from the sellers perspective. It woud be like removing 90% of the meat in the grocery store and selling tofu, or maybe Soylent Green, as the perfect, better even, substitute. So much for equality.
February 6th, 2015 at 2:02 am
Sun Wukong,
“I had options, but I couldn’t get a boner for them if my life depended on it.”
I’m an engineer. I would take viagra. It’s cheap as a research chemical.
But I don’t need viagra because I have a different kind of blue pill.
I now see myself as fortunate that I like compatibility in personality and temperament, enjoy the resulting emotional connection, and appreciate true femininity and dripping desire for me, combined with loyalty and find that most readily in a woman that doesn’t need rubbers, that is enough to overide all kinds of visual flaws as far as boner test goes. I don’t care how BP that sounds; for me it’s an asset.
I fully get Rollo’s caution about trying to mix RP and BP and I don’t believe I would backslide like that anymore. What I do looks BP, but that seems to be due to a quirk of my limbic functioning, not FI indoctrination at this point. I do intend to up my game just to make sure, but PAWs occaisionally drop onto my lap no matter how clueless I was.
The commitment test however is a little more stringent. But if I expect to move on when the honeymoon is over, that doesn’t matter either. In fact I might be better off not making a commitment I probably wouldn’t keep long term anyway.
February 6th, 2015 at 2:05 am
@jacklabear
If I have to take Viagra to get a boner for her, she’s not worth getting a boner for.
February 6th, 2015 at 2:35 am
Sun Wukong
February 6th, 2015 at 2:05 am
“@jacklabear
If I have to take Viagra to get a boner for her, she’s not worth getting a boner for.”
I hear you.
Mine is built in and always on, so that issue doesn’t come up for me, paradoxical pun intended.
February 6th, 2015 at 2:44 am
Jeremy,
“Are you referring to PUAs/poaching/boyfriend-destroying? Are you thinking that this behavior is somehow only motivated by making up for incels?”
Yes.
The utility of a justification is independent of the motivation for the behavior being justified. It doesn’t matter why they do what they do, if they want to justify it, the image of hordes of incels roaming the streets makes for a good justification.
February 6th, 2015 at 3:44 am
@jacklabear
“The utility of a justification is independent of the motivation for the behavior being justified.”
Horseshit.
My reasons for engaging in those behaviors are exclusively about their benefits to me. Period. I look at incels only as something I wish to avoid becoming, and as a way to understand where Blue Pill men feel their worst pain. It’s not about justice at all to me.
If there’s any “justice” to be spoken of for incels, each incel is responsible for seeking justice for their own condition by improving their situation with the same information I’ve used. Every man wipes his own ass.
February 6th, 2015 at 5:45 am
Farrrrk this thread has so much going on.Love it…
@ YaReally – again, epic demolition of gregg’s and npn7672’s purple poo.
@ Mr T – I think blue pill fathers have blood on their hands with regards to inflating their daughters SMV. BP father boilerplate always defaults instinctively inflating their daughters SMV. “oh you are sooooo beautiful bebe” when deep down daddy knows she’s a wildebeest – yet almost by proxy tries to optimize her SMV to somewhat justify his own low SMV – because DNA, or poor mate selection, has resulted in bebe being a pig (yet on instagram she is told she could be the next Sports Illustrated model).
My daughter is 15 and will be an 8/9. Noooo, that is not daddy with BP goggles on – that is from a number of modelling agencies salivating for her to turn 15 and 9 months.
On a personal note – completely fucked up an approach at shops today. HB8 body, 7 face, late 20’s something chick (I’m 42) with big IOI’s and I choked at the penultimate moment….
That’s why all the RP theory will never replace field experience like YaReally talks about. That knee-jerk reaction to instinctively pounce on a clear opportunity cost me a possible hot fuck – happens to me all the time.
February 6th, 2015 at 10:32 am
@YaReally
“Obviously Rollo you should protect your family’s privacy and all that, it goes without saying…but down the road when your girl has made it through her early 20s, please give serious consideration to, even totally anonymously, writing a book or something on raising a daughter (and even your thoughts on raising a son since I’m sure they would be valuable too) while having a red pill understanding of the world.”
This is actually pretty important. I find the general RP community is focused too heavily on the spinning plates phase in life but not much is discussed afterwards when choosing a plate to settle down with and into marriage. I know most RP men will just continue spinning plates and never settle (all the power to them) because that’s what they want and that’s cool. I for one want a family at some point in my life, and I believe most men in general seek the same life goal.
So as I currently spin plates in my late 20’s, spit some high level game and build my career, I will want to eventually get hitched. Honestly, from the commenters and the RP community I get a sense of most people already in a marriage situation hitting problems and getting out for good or trying to turn things around. I am kind of looking forward to starting a LTR/Marriage on the purity of RP fundamentals, going to be like amused mastery on steroids.
February 6th, 2015 at 10:35 am
@jacklabear
And?
It actually goes without saying that humans with moral dilemmas will find justifications for their actions regardless of base motivation. Did someone, somewhere, make the claim that the reason for girlfriend poaching was to make up for hordes of incels?
I would argue that any game practitioner who poaches actually faces no moral dilemma. They may perceive one, but there is none. To imply one is similar to implying that drug dealers are just as culpable of creating the addiction as the addicts they serve. The absurdity there springs from the fact that addiction is a psychological need before it’s a chemical need, which directly implies parental responsibility for the addiction.
As a game practitioner, you’re a salesman. Your “job” is to sell yourself to any woman who might have you, and meets your own standards. Since optimization of this path requires the largest cross-section of potential “customers” you can get in order to optimize, it is absolutely forgivable for men to seduce any woman they want. This then puts the onus almost entirely on the committed woman to announce that she’s taken and remain loyal to her man, as it should be, imho.
Women who hide the fact that they’re married or have an exclusive boyfriend, at any time, are essentially fraudsters and deserve the shitty life they create for themselves.
February 6th, 2015 at 10:35 am
Sun Wukong,
By justification I didn’t mean justice, I meant an excuse for behavior that is ethically debatable.
1.
to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right:
The end does not always justify the means.
2.
to defend or uphold as warranted or well-grounded:
Don’t try to justify his rudeness.