One of the first observations formal PUAs had when they were testing and refining their methods was that of the now ubiquitous shit tests women would present them with. It’s important to put this testing dynamic into context because, as most any guy who’s ever made an approach will tell you (not just PUAs) there comes a stage in that approach when a girl will set up a challenge for a guy. However, as any married man will tell you, that’s not where the shit tests end.
Over the holidays I was hanging out with my brother and watching my niece and nephew interact. My nephew is 16 and his sister is a very mature 12, but to see them interact, it’s one shit test after another. There’s the fluid teasing and taunting that comes from siblings that genuinely like each other (well, mostly), but as I watch these two interact I thought back to how my brother and I used to give each other shit, smack each other around and basically roughhouse like boys used to be able to do before a feminine-primary society decided they needed to be medically sedated for their ‘condition’.
I’ve explored this in Amused Mastery, but there’s a natural flow that’s learned between an older brother and a younger sister (or sometimes a capricious younger brother to an older sister) that translates to an intersexual relating with men and women later in adulthood. My brother is very conventionally masculine, a somewhat natural Alpha in his mindset, and his positive masculine frame carries over into his role as a father. This sets the environment in which his son and daughter are learning intertersexual interactions with one another. Both are very headstrong, but also respectful in a way that only a positively male dominant father can inspire.
I bring this up because I feel this learning illustrates both the problem most men later have with shit tests as well as the key to capitalizing on them.
No Passing
You’ll notice I didn’t say ‘pass’ the shit test. I think it’s a misnomer to view shit tests as a pass or fail proposition. Most men like that easy binary win-lose proposition, but the problem I have with that is that ‘passing’ a shit test implies finality. You will always be shit tested by a woman, so you never really pass that test, however you can and should turn those tests to your advantage.
Many a well meaning Red Pill woman (and a few Purple Pill ‘life coaches’) who don’t like offending the delicate sensibilities of today’s virtuous women like to call these tests ‘fitness’ tests. The renaming sprays a bit of perfume on an otherwise unflattering aspect of women’s Hypergamous psyches, but under that scent is the same truth,…
Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism. Women will shit test men as autonomously and subconsciously as a men will stare at a woman’s big boobs. They cannot help it, and often enough, just like men staring at a nice rack or a great ass, even when they’re made aware of doing it they’ll still do it. Men want to verify sexual availability to the same degree women want to verify a masculine dominance / confidence.
I think the early PUAs were correct in calling these test ‘shit tests’ because the nature of those tests they met in their field approaches were very much like the ‘shit’ they’d given and been given by their male peers throughout much of their lives. Part of the male experience is giving your friends ‘shit’, ribbing them, messing with them and otherwise talking ‘shit’ with them. If you’re in a fantasy football league you probably get that “smack talking” has been raised to an art form.
In this context it’s not so much a fitness test as it is a form of male-specific camaraderie – if it’s a test of anything it’s a test for the social intelligence that a guy gets that his friend is giving him ‘shit’ and can laugh about it and give as good as he got. This is part of men’s preferred overt form of communication which baffles women unfamiliar with it; if I’m playfully insulting you, if I’m messing with you, it means I consider you a friend and I expect that you’ll ‘just get it’ that you know this when I do.
Sadly this is often the first offense women take when they insert themselves into Male Spaces. They take the ‘shit talk’ personally, or at the very least have to make an effort (they believe they shouldn’t have to) to communicate in the open, often vulgar, but no less meaningful ways men do. Unless they were raised in the increasingly rare household of a strong masculine influence (fathers or brothers) it’s likely these women won’t “just get it” and bend their efforts to change that communication to something she’s more comfortable with, and something her feminine-primary expectations convince her is correct.
Getting the Test
Even if you had the benefit of having your bratty sister punch you in the arm after teasing her you may not realize this is a form of shit testing you. One of the most important aspects of dealing with a shit test is understanding the basic fundament of Just Getting It:
She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.
Observing the process will change it. This is the root function of every shit test ever devised by a woman. If masculinity has to be explained to a man, he’s not the man for her.
A woman wants to know a guy Just Gets It, but she still needs a method to determine that he does – ergo she shit tests. For women, this method must be in as covert a form as possible to protect the integrity of not exposing her own sexual strategy to herself.
When openly analyzed this seems like madness to men’s striving for a rational solution to a problem, but her method comes from a subconscious want of not having to convince her hindbrain that he does in fact get it – and gets it so well that he neither acknowledges it overtly nor asks for her assistance in figuring her shit test out.
Observing and / or explicating a process will change that process, and a woman’s Hypergamous hindbrain knows this.
Essentially a shit test is used by women to determine one, or a combination of these factors:
a.) Confidence – first and foremost
b.) Options – is this guy really into me because I’m ‘special’ or am I his only option?
c.) Security – is this guy capable of providing me with long term security?
I would also add that these requisites imply a testing for masculine dominance as well as his sexual market value. Women want a man that other women want to fuck, and other men want to be. The conflict inherent in women’s shit testing is that she must simultaneously determine a man has other sexual options than her while also attempting to limit those option and making herself his primary focus.
There’s always been some debate as to whether women are unaware of their subconscious shit testing or if those tests come from a fully aware and deliberate intent. I understand the rational want of men to hold women’s feet to the fire and accept a personal responsibility for their action – shit tests naturally seem like a huge waste of time, not to mention duplicitous and false to men who value straight-talk solutions – but I’m going to argue that these tests are both intentional and subconscious depending on the context in which she delivers a shit test.
However, whether intended or not, it’s more important for guys to get that a woman’s testing is rooted in her inherent Hypergamous uncertainty. And that uncertainty extends to both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of her Hypergamy. Women’s doubt of a man’s Hypergamous suitability is a constant, though subconscious effect for her.
Active Testing
When a woman actively, consciously, shit tests you, understand that it is always intentional. This type of shit test is the most common one PUAs encounter in the clubs or whatever their preferred venue may be. With the exception of maybe Day Game, women in these arenas are expecting men to sarge them, and therefore the propensity to deliver a prepared shit test is a conscious decision on her part. For the most part these tests amount to a fun game for her that serve the purpose of determining a guy’s SMV and his Hypergamy optimization potential.
An active test is entertainment to her in the same way it is for a bratty sister and her older brother. There’s usually a lot of witty (hopefully on your part) push-pull to this shit test exchange, but the latent purpose is her subconscious probing you for the possibility that you might ‘get it’ – that you might be able to play the game rather than having to explain it to her or having it explained to you.
As I’ve stated before, a woman who is into you wont confuse you, but a lot of men (particularly overly conditioned Betas) come to believe that any impropriety on his part might be taken as an offensive so they never boldly push back on these test as they should. They fall back on the “Yes M’Lady” white knight script they believe will set them apart from “other guys”, but the guys who ‘get it’ aren’t confused by shit tests. A big brother hits his bratty sister back when they’re play fighting; not so much as to harm her, but just enough to show her who’s stronger, who’s in control of his situation and isn’t afraid to push her back.
If a woman is not testing you in an environment where she could reasonably be expected to actively be doing so, she doesn’t have the interest in you to do so. A lot of men mistake a woman’s “Bitch Shield” as a cue of disinterest or disgust, when in fact these are often calculated shit tests. There are many ways to push past a Bitch Shield for a guy with the brass (and interest) to do so, but it’s a woman’s indifference, not her poised contempt, that cues disinterest.
Active tests are what single men are most likely to encounter in women, and it’s important for these men to understand that this type of test isn’t something you pass, but rather something you capitalize on. For a guy with even a basic grasp of Game these test should be considered nothing but softballs for him to hit out of the park.
Things to remember are Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree & Amplify and a basic Cocky & Funny ambience while employing them. I should also add that women deliberately putting themselves into social environments (like a club) who are delivering active shit test are likely at the ovulation point of their Estrus phase – adjust your Game (and birth control methods) accordingly.
If you recognize that you’re being actively shit tested always remember, play with her, and play with her. Shit tests of this nature are opportunities to build attraction as well as arousal, and women want you to get that they are opportunities.
Passive Testing
While active testing is done in awareness with intent by a woman (with only a passing element of her subconsciously doing so), a passive shit test is a reflexive, subconscious test rooted in a woman’s Hypergamous insecurities. In an active test, the latent purpose is one of playfully determining Hypergamous optimization of a new prospective mate. A passive test is rooted in the Hypergamous doubt that a woman’s choice to settle with that man was in fact the best optimization her SMV could afford her.
Passive testing always asks the question that her nagging, hindbrain Hypergamy can’t give a voice to, “Did I make the right choice? Is this guy really the Alpha I thought he was or could be?’
Passive testing is constantly exacerbated or defined by her previous sexual experiences (or lack thereof) or the fantasies of what could be if her circumstances were to change. For women, this is the mental space where the Alpha Widow dynamic is harbored. This is a where the subconscious testing of the man whom she consolidated monogamy with meets her unconscious comparing of him with her past, idealized experiences – or the experiences she believes could be possible if she could determine his suitability for her.
For the most part these tests are ones of measuring his performance and provisioning capacity against his Alpha tingles generating capacity. Passive tests are insidious in that they need a satisfaction of so many Hypergamous elements: Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks, the outperforming of past or fantasized sexual competitors, pushback masculine dominance, status, and many other prerequisites of long term Hypergamous optimization.
As you’ll probably guess the passive test is usually reserved for marriages and LTRs (live in arrangements being common). Any woman not familiar enough with you wont give you a passive test, however you might get one from your mother or a close female relative who needs some reassurance from you (or wants to put you in your place as a Beta). Passive tests seem to be the most hurtful, but it’s important to predict when they’ll come, what’s triggered them and the root insecurity behind them that women either aren’t consciously aware of or can’t openly reveal because, once again, it ruins the game and her determining if you ‘just get it’ without being told.
As with active tests demonstration, not explication, is the key to resolving and capitalizing on them. These are the types of tests that aggravate most men because they generally feel they’re locked into solving them. Thus, they make grandly overt affairs of bringing a woman’s ‘bull shit’ to light in an effort to quell her insecurities, but also to feel like they’re reasonably holding her personally accountable for her “stupid shit testing”.
And as with most similar efforts, appealing to a woman’s reason never ‘solves’ her problem. Hypergamy doesn’t reason, Hypergamy only feels. Demonstrating you get what she’s doing will help you capitalize on her insecurities far more than explicating that you know what she’s doing by shit testing you.
You’ll probably have guessed that passive tests are most commonly generated while a woman is in the luteal phase of her menstrual cycle, but it when that insecurity relates to her partner’s Alpha suitability there is some crossover into her proliferative phase. It’s important for married men to determine the nature of his wife’s insecurity with regard to her tests and when they’re most commonly delivered.
If she’s testing you at or around her ovulatory window, if she’s regularly insisting on a Girls Night Out around this time (yes, it’s a shit test), if she’s not sexually interested in you during her estrus, it’s likely she’s uncertain about your Alpha Fucks suitability to her. If her tests come during her luteal phase, if she’s nagging or provoking you about money, emotional availability or even how she wants to live closer to her parents, it’s likely her insecurity is based on her perception of your status, provisioning capacity or your Beta Bucks potential to make more of it.
While these types of shit tests based on Hypergamous insecurity may seem like a lost cause, understand that many of the same techniques used to capitalize on active tests still apply. Not all passive tests are delivered in the negative, and applications like Command Presence and Agree & Amplify demonstrate to a woman that you get it, that you see her tests for what they are, and you’re prepared for them without revealing the game you both know you’re playing.
Even well timed Amused Mastery (after you’ve established mastery of her) is enough to defuse a shit test with potentially negative implications. Once the precedence of your mastery is set it’s an easy fallback she’ll expect from you.
Granted, there are more direct ways of demonstrating your optimization to her – staying in better shape than she’s in is an obvious one, casually emphasizing passive dread (a.k.a. married social proof) is another – but the important part is recognizing what aspect of her Hypergamy is generating that insecurity.
In closing here I feel it’s incumbent upon me to address the most obvious response most guys will have to all of this: “Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit” to which I’ll say, “yeah, you’re right, it makes more sense just to disconnect entirely”.
It would be great if women could be relied upon to be rational, reasonable agents as most would like men to believe they are. I mean, they should be, right? You should just simply be able to say to a girl or your wife “Hey I know all the games your playing and why you’re playing them, so lets just drop all of the pretentiousness and get down to fucking and living, OK?” But all this amounts to is negotiating for her genuine desire. Real desire on a woman’s part never comes from rational, reasonable explanations of why she should desire you, it comes from your demonstrations and your example.
Even the men who rule their women with an iron fist will still deal with women’s tests directly or indirectly without even realizing they’re doing so.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:08 pm
jf12
January 14th, 2015 at 5:59 pm
You are aware that murderers are quite popular with some women.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:12 pm
@M Simon
This is where you reviel your lack of personal compass. Your “first mate” is at the helm and she is banging you up the ass across the bow. Everyone can see this except you because she has your teeth driven into the deck.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:12 pm
Dr. J.
Even the lowliest HB2 still pines for Self +! with regard to her SMV. Actually, if she’s wrapped up in herself courtesy of social media addiction it’s probably more like Self +3.
The fact remains that women’s biologically influenced Hypergamy is the performance benchmark for men. Men display, women choose is the cliché (one I don’t agree with 100%). A lot gets made of men being the gatekeepers of commitment, but I think this gets overplayed in the manosphere. Commitment isn’t quite the bargaining chip a lot of guys think it is unless they’re at their SMV peak.
However, Hypergamy sets the qualitative environment for men’s displaying performance. Men’s sexual imperative is unlimited access to unlimited sexuality. You can make the case that a fat HB2 wants to be loved irrespective of her performance (looking good), but even that HB2 still wants a better than self Hypergamous optimization.
Thus we get Obesity Culture (body acceptance movement), and a slew of other feminist inspired social conventions with the latent purpose of socially engineering men to desire them for something, anything, they feel they have more control over. Thus career, accomplishments, bravado, intellect and a host of other esoteric humanistic aspects that men should find more appealing than just ‘shallow’ physical attributes become more emphasized in popular culture.
However, while it seems this is a ‘quest for being loved’ for something other than the one condition men place on women’s performance, this actually serves the purpose of leveling the intrasexual competition field for women who want access to Hypergamous optimization without the burden of any performance. In fact I’d argue that feminism-facilitated unfettered Hypergamy is more about socially mandating women’s sexual strategy as the predominant correct one, than any pretense of equality, because, as we’re seeing now, the 80/20 rule is increasingly narrowing and marginalizing men out of the SMP.
Yet underneath all this is women’s desire to mate with, and pair with men who’s SMV (at least perceptually) exceeds her own. Hypergamy sets the qualitative state, for women and men’s performance.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:16 pm
@M Simon, re: lion taming
A little while ago I curtly inquired of an unfamiliar young woman, who was sticking her head into people’s open offices, “What are you prowling around here for?” and she had to explain rather fearfully that she was looking for (I’ll make up a name) Cindy because Cindy was supposed to give her a ride. I demanded to see her badge, and physically took it from her and called it in. Just procedure, although seldom actually followed.
She kind of enjoyed it, though, and I heard her bragging to someone that I said she looked like she was prowling. Apparently looking prowling is something to aspire to.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:22 pm
Not Born This Morning (a.k.a. George), the problem with freewill is the choices that freewill is presented with and finds desirable or not. I’m not so cocksure as to say that biological determinism trumps all, but I do recognize that it sets the state for the choices we think would make the most sense and the solutions we think will solve a problem.
We can override our biological imperatives. We do so everyday with such regularity that we push them to our peripheral awareness, but the state we find ourselves is one dictated by the influence of those imperatives.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:25 pm
@Not Born This Morning
I’m not sure what you mean by feminine primary. They’re simply categorizations of male behavior that satisfy two differing goals that females seek to satisfy. It is impossible to say that such categorizations of male behavior could be separated from the sexually dimorphic species that we are simply based on the fact that we evolved together. What really blows your mind is when you realize that women have always had greater control over evolution than men did. So if there’s anyone to blame for the sexual impasse over being attracted to AF while needing BB, it can really only be laid at the feet of the women themselves.
Consider, in your frustration, that there is no escaping the female influence in human evolution that brought you to this point. There is no escaping from that, and there is no magic solution to eradicating the burden of performance from being required of you. Then realize that you were actually bred to perform, the ladies through the generations did that.
It’s not so bad. The ladies, imo, still have it worse. Rationality w.r.t. their own sexuality is nearly impossible over any long term period until they get past menopause.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:26 pm
@Rollo, re: “A lot gets made of men being the gatekeepers of commitment, but I think this gets overplayed in the manosphere. Commitment isn’t quite the bargaining chip a lot of guys think it is unless they’re at their SMV peak.”
Amen to that. Too many women know they could marry too many unattractive men at any time. Betas treat commitment like riders on a Mardi Gras float. Similarly, being the gatekeepers of vagina isn’t quite the bargaining chip for very many women who aren’t great marriage material. The gate hinges get worn off before the women realize it.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:34 pm
Not Born This Morning
January 14th, 2015 at 6:12 pm
My fm is not at the helm. You confuse me with most other guys that use that term. When I say fm you should think “biker’s OL”. Because I’m 70 and got RP at 18. And I AM a biker. And an aerospace engineer. And Naval Nuclear Qualified.
================
She has never driven my teeth into the deck. But I suppose it is hard to tell from your vantage point.
I will admit she does try. And when she does I cut her off until she comes around.
Now all this may look odd to you but I personally think divorce is bad for children at any age and I have 4 of them. Duty is naturally a very strange concept these days. I prefer to honor it. You are probably not up to it. So you should avoid it.
================
The fm is an Alpha Female. But not in the sense our recent troll used the term. The fm likes letting other women get to me and then winning me back by wanting me more (and thus doing more for me) than any other woman.
Women like that (who like competing with other women) are not the norm. Most are betas and will whine and bitch and “I’ll divorce your ass/leave you” the other women away. Mine actually LIKES out competing them. She LIKES dread game. Has ever since I met her 40+ years ago.
Funny enough my mother liked dread game when dad was alive.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:34 pm
If you are concerned about passing her shit tests then you automatically fail them because the general purpose of any shit test is to see if you are concerned with passing them. Failure is defined by any concern for them. “Passing” is only realized…..let me repeat this passing is ONLY having no concern for any shit test. If you are trying to determine how to pass shit tests or counting the number you may or may not have passed, then you fail. It’s that simple. You fail because you blatantly display lack of self respect and communicate that you devalue yourself. You are in effect telling everyone that a shit test is more valuable than you. If you think so little of yourself that you are all wrapped up in shit tests, how many there have been, scoring them, scoring yourself, etc, then your whole situation will become shit. What is more valuable, you or some silly frivolous meaningless shit test?
January 14th, 2015 at 6:39 pm
re: caged bird singing etc. Recommended reading “The Bondage of the Will”.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:40 pm
@M Simon
My vision is clear and see through it all.
To each his “Waltalpha World”….with his “alpha princess”
A few of us prefer honesty and reality.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:40 pm
It is ugly JF12, Our historical past was ugly as hell and power means survival. Which is why the West is dying. They have given up the will to be mean and ugly and now the world runs over us
Why isn’t that smirk appropriate at Bible study. Read the Bible 6 or more times, never read a rule against smirking
January 14th, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Rollo – “We can override our biological imperatives.”
Indeed, for example my body count is zero, and I’ve never hit a woman (not since the fourth grade).
January 14th, 2015 at 6:41 pm
@Glenn
I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done?
Not to sound too therapist-ish here, but it wasn’t your fault man. You were operating in a reality that didn’t include RP perspective. Everyone around you, every time something would go wrong, would tell you to double down on beta behaviors. Every. Single. Time. Nobody once said “Hey maybe this other perspective is correct” in a way that made sense.
Coming from an abusive background like me, when your observations didn’t match the reality other people kept describing you probably didn’t have enough confidence in your view. You just swallowed their advice. I mean, if you feel incompetent in a subject and everybody around you is giving the same advice your entire life then it’s really hard to take the leap of faith and go the other day.
You didn’t know what you know now. You couldn’t. There was no way to know. That’s why it wasn’t your fault.
The fact that you now own up to it means if it happens again it will be, but it’s far less likely that it will. Even if it does, you’ll have the tools this time to analyze what went wrong and fix it.
It’s hard as a man to let go of the blame for something you could have fixed if you knew in the past what you know now. But you can’t blame yourself for having nothing but bad advice around you, being unable to recognize the bad advice due to lack of experience, and suffering horrible consequences for it. It doesn’t make any logical sense to blame yourself.
I’m dealing with the same shit, man. I feel ya. One thing I do know though: we’re both gonna do a shit ton better going forward. No doubt in my mind.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:56 pm
@Rollo
I completely agree.
Sometimes in making a point my words may seem to negate one variable of reality by highly illuminating another. My intent was not to downplay the influence of nature and nuture. However, I think most of men’s problems here stem from lack of self respect and understanding their true potential and value. The realization has been beaten and scammed out of most.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:57 pm
Re: male shit tests
I’d guess this is ball-busting to find weakness. I know the difference between the personal attack and the good natured ribbing. The personal attack should be ignored unless one is prepared to escalate to violence. In fact a quick invitation to “settle things like men” usually answers the attack without violence, and is good for establishing boundaries.
January 14th, 2015 at 7:05 pm
@Sun Wukong
Agreed. Being someone who grew up in, and came out of a cult… You can spend time blaming yourself for not having the critical thinking skills to see the bullshit… Or you can realize that you just didn’t know any better, and your actions at the time must be viewed in that context or your view is just distorted.
You don’t beat yourself up over tripping over your shoes as a kid, do you? Then there’s no reason to beat yourself up over a lost ex-wife from failed shit tests.
January 14th, 2015 at 7:32 pm
@ Sun Wukong – Thanks man. Great perspective and very nice to know that I’m not alone in struggling. But here’s my truth.
Worst part of the Red Pill? Seeing how I fucked it all up. Really. I chose this path in a lot of ways. It was the path of plausible deniability, like I did just enough to not be able to be blamed but did I really do all I could do to get what I want? Nope. In fact, I gave myself excuses and ignored the voice in my head that told me many Red Pill truths long before I heard them here. But I pushed them away – sometimes they were hard things to digest. Really, I lived in a sort of cognitive dissonance, “keeping two sets of books” as Christopher Hitchens called it. On the one hand I knew that I wasn’t keeping my wife’s interest, but on the other, I thought she owed me that because she’d married me. I just never bothered to reconcile the many things like this that existed side-by-side in my head.
Beta strategies are in many ways a shortcut to high quality pussy, in that we think we can skip getting and keeping our mate attracted to us because we provide and protect and are nice guys. Still way easier than competing to win all the time. I took the shortcuts many times – that’s just the fucking truth.
It does me no good to not see my own agency in this. I have to start with truth. And the truth is if I want a better life, I have to be a better man. For realsies…
January 14th, 2015 at 7:51 pm
@ Rollo
I believe that both perspectives are occurring simultaneously, at different levels of analysis.
1) The preference of each sex forms the basis for inter-sexual performance and competition. They both judge each other, but by a different set of standards. Higher value mates (by those standards) choose and lower value mates struggle to perform to be chosen back. Because women are generally the more reproductively valuable mate, they more easily meet men’s standards. Therefore, usually they are chosen by many men (of lower value) and have the option to have them perform to try and earn the women’s choice back. With a high value male, the situation is reversed. He easily exceeds women’s standards, so he then requires them to perform to meet his in return. In those instances, women feel the burden of performance.
2) Those performance standards are also used for intra-sexual competition. Men compete with men, based on women’s hypergamous standards. Women compete with women, based on men’s attraction/reproduction standards. Those who succeed have higher SMV and a better chance of getting their own mating/performance standards met.
The modern social engineering is attempting to doing two things… It is empowering all women over men, helping women win in intersexual competition (making the feminine imperative primary). This is making women’s preference the performance standard in society (rather than having more of a balance). It is also invalidating men’s performance standards for women altogether, helping low SMV women particularly in intrasexual competition.
It is doing BOTH things because the social change appears to be a power play primarily by low SMV women, who did not like being subordinate to men for survival resources, or losing to other women for sexual access to men. So, they overtly persuade high SMV women to form coalitions with them to dominate and devalue men, meeting their shared feminine imperative (intersexual competition). Then, they covertly use men’s disempowerment to invalidate men’s attraction-based performance standards, devaluing their high SMV “sisters” in the process (intrasexual competition).
From a power and influence standpoint, it is masterfully done and benefits low SMV women immensely. Taken together, however, it does so by making all women equal and powerful. This leads to a situation where all women hold standards for men’s performance, without being judged to perform themselves. It also leaves men burdened with performance, longing to be in the same situation as women (idealized love). Unfortunately, that situation (and power dynamic) only works one way – and right now, women are on top.
However, that does not change the fact that the dynamic can work both ways – and is not biologically determined. Those lower in status and power, regardless of sex, are those who most heavily feel the “burden of performance”. The fact that men feel it so acutely right now is due to the power imbalance and their social devaluing (not innate biological differences). The fact that women’s standards are primary and they seem exempt from performance themselves is due to their ascendance in power. Yes, there are evolved differences in the types of performance and standards that men and women hold as ideals…but this messy, oppressive, one-sided, unrealistic performance standard for men, and the “love” they feel as a reaction, is socially constructed.
January 14th, 2015 at 8:05 pm
I discussed hypergamy with my wife this afternoon
As far as intelligence in a mate is concerned this was her opinion.
Self-1 = not going to happen, no chance.
Equal Intelligence = neither attractive nor unattractive. She said this guy would need another attractive trait to make him interesting. Otherwise no.
Self+1 = Immediately attractive.
That’s her inborn biology talking. She was being honest. Any woman who marries a Self-1 thinks she settled big time. She’s headed for crippling depression and she’ll probably take it out on her Self-1 husband.
January 14th, 2015 at 8:37 pm
The problem with modern shit tests is that in the past when women couldn’t self provision they knew they had to come back to the ‘fold’.
With the changing economic ecology (per David de la Croix) and the woman’s capacity for self provisioning, social support and serial polygyny, shit tests become something altogether different.
Cock hopping wasn’t an option in the past but now it is, all the strategies in the world can’t change the different social circumstances.
Far more important than game and redpill knowledge in today’s environment for the average man is asset protection and income security, that’s the only leverage modern men have.
I’ve seen men set up for devastating divorces by their spouses only to have the tables turn when they realized assets were in the husband’s parent’s name. You will never witnessed a bigger 360 and supplicating grovelling until you’ve seen a woman who has realized her gambit has failed and the cash and prizes has vanished.
It’s a shame the sphere doesn’t have web pages dedicated to asset protection, that’s the only fallback modern men have.
You don’t realize what a game changer it is until you have witnessed it in action.
January 14th, 2015 at 8:55 pm
@ zdro1ds
That self+1 effect for intelligence in women’s preferences does not surprise me. My point is that we can (and do) find that same self+1 effect in men for physical attractiveness. Men who are better looking than their wives are often miserable. Both sexes are looking for a +1 effect in the other, just along different dimensions.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:03 pm
@Johnycomelately
Tell me a tale sir, I would like to subscribe to your rss feed.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:42 pm
@ Sun Wukong good example of agree and amplify, I’ll give it shot.
@jf12 “Relatedly, about the only thing, and arguably the one and only thing, that can possibly work on stale women is Dread.”
Ya, I am working towards that direction. I am doing a few things: working out with the goal of gaining muscle, focusing on my own interests and doing things without her, however, I am reluctant to be too blatant and do something like flirt with other women in front of her. I don’t want her to mistakenly think I am cheating on her…
Dread seems to me to be necessary, but dangerous if used poorly, when in the confines of a marriage.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:57 pm
Dr. Jeremy, great respect for your work but your seeming intention to further the equalitarian model has blinded you to the reality of Female Shit Tests. Men Shit test other men and it is indeed a dominance play BUT not in the same way that Women Shit test men.
Consider the 4 possible Shit test conditions:
1. Men Shit testing one another: This is usually playful banter with laughing and bro talk. However, men will stop and back off if somebody doesn’t “Get It” or this will be clearly viewed as an unfriendly act. They will not be friends any longer if it continues. This is done fully consciously by both parties and Dr. J. is right, it is pure dominance.
2. Women Shit testing men is damn serious business. The only laughing is the man who “Gets It” teasing the Shit testing woman. If the man doesn’t “Get It” then she will escalate the Shit tests over time until the relationship is completely destroyed. She will do this mostly subconsciously and she will not stop until the man makes her stop.
3. Men don’t Shit test women very much at all. They flirt. They tease. But there is nothing comparable to Shit tests.
4. Women Shit testing women: Do I even need to comment? Words like “All the time” and “Nonstop” come to mind.
Women shit test both men and women constantly. They do it mostly unconsciously and will not stop until they are forced to stop.
Men Shit test only other men they don’t like and almost never Shit test women. They do it mostly consciously and they will stop.
TLDR: The genders are actually different- really!
January 14th, 2015 at 10:20 pm
@ Dr. Jeremy
That self+1 effect for intelligence in women’s preferences does not surprise me. My point is that we can (and do) find that same self+1 effect in men for physical attractiveness. Men who are better looking than their wives are often miserable. Both sexes are looking for a +1 effect in the other, just along different dimensions.
No doubt about it. But I wonder if it’s a bit different for men.
For instance when I met my wife in college she just turned 18 and I just turned 20. She had a boyfriend but that didn’t slow anyone down. Every guy had a crush on her including my best friend. I’ll rate her an HB8.5. A definite cutie. Me on the other hand I was 5’7″ with bad skin. I’ll rate myself a 2. But my pathetic looks never figured into the equation. I wasn’t searching for a woman better looking than myself. If I was I could have stopped at a 3 or a 5. I wanted this girl because she was hot. To me she was a prize. I was like a poor kid walking through the inner city that spots a Porsche. This kid sees the car, becomes mesmerized and vows that someday he’s going to own one himself. For me it wasn’t really +1. It was more like that’s good and I want it.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:36 pm
Dr. J. again I’ll disagree. There is far, far too much evidence essentially proving ovulatory behavioral shifts in women during their Estrus, proliferative and luteal phases of their menstrual cycle for Hypergamy to have any other basis than biological.
Alpha Fucks behavior manifests in the proliferative phase. Women’s visceral preference is for masculinized, ‘Alpha as she can get’ physical features and dominance in order to secure that genetic benefit in the short term:
Ovulatory Shifts in Female Sexual Desire
Male sexual attractiveness predicts differential ovulatory shifts in female extra-pair attraction and male mate retention
Women’s Sexual Strategies: The Evolution of Long-Term Bonds and Extrapair Sex
Women’s Fertility across the Cycle Increases the Short-Term Attractiveness of Creative Intelligence
Ovulatory shifts in human female ornamentation:Near ovulation, women dress to impress – A direct social manifestation of biologically prompted (Alpha Fucks) Hypergamy.
Evidence for Menstrual Cycle Shifts in Women’s Preferences for Masculinity
I can post more, but you can read them all at Hasselton’s site or you can have a look at Robert Buriss’ site. There is literally a mountain of valid, experimental studies that suggest that women’s pluralistic sexual strategy, Hypergamy, is firmly rooted in women’s neurological firmware. I explored this in Your Friend Menstruation – approaching and into a woman’s ovulatory peak the biologically motivated impulse is for Alpha Fucks, in the down cycle women prefer comfort (oxytocin, progesterone), rapport and ‘safe’ more feminized features and aspects of supportive Beta Bucks men.
Optimal aspects of both these sides of Hypergamy existing in the same man is a burden of performance for which there is no parallel for women because either sex employs separate sexual strategies for different sexual imperatives. Women’s innate Hypergamy therefor sets the qualitative state in which that man must perform, and this want for optimization between the two aspects her Hypergamy (AFBB) demands leads to either sex having differing core concepts of love based on their own strategies and the strategies they find themselves qualifying for.
The power imbalance men feel isn’t a current social trend, it’s been around for millennia because Hypergamy is a biological feature, not a sociological bug.
Feminism and the rise of the Feminine Imperative to social primacy didn’t create Hypergamy. They’re a social push to consolidate an already existing Hypergamy as the preeminent, nominally correct, sexual strategy of our era. Shakespeare and Ovid didn’t write their odes and sonnets to a male-idealized, male-romanticized concept of love because of the messy, oppressive, one-sided, unrealistic performance standards their societies constructed for them.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:55 pm
@Glenn
Worst part of the Red Pill? Seeing how I fucked it all up. Really.
Could not agree more. There’s days when I get up in the morning, sit on the edge of the bed, and just feel like I wish I could forget what I’ve learned. I wish I could close Pandora’s Box and stuff all the knowledge of the stupid shit I’ve done back in there. Just go back to sleep and plug back in.
But then I realize: while I can see how fucked up things are and that’s a bit depressing, I was completely and utterly fucking miserable when I didn’t know all that I’ve learned. Like when the blue pill was all I knew, my misery was worse because I didn’t realize where my power to change things ended and the things I couldn’t change began. It left me with a feeling of so little power and control that I was miserable. There’s a lot of research that says a big part of “happiness” in a person’s life is a feeling of agency. I felt none. I was fumbling in the dark
Now I can see where I fucked up, and there’s a lot of mistakes I made that were choices under my control. But I didn’t know it at the time if I’m being honest. Young, stupid, ignorant me just didn’t know. But I also each day see more and more clearly what is and is not in my control. Further, before I wouldn’t have known how to control the things that I could control even if I had known what they were. Now I learn more each day about controlling them.
Ignorance might be bliss in some respects (especially when looking back on your own life), but when ignorance was the cause of your misery it pays to remember why you educated yourself. Remember why you took those steps. While you’re looking back at how you fucked up, think long and hard about why you fucked up. There’s a good chance you didn’t understand things well enough to make a good choice. That’s where my trying to be fair with myself about past mistakes comes from.
Try really hard to remember what it was like being young you. Why did you make those choices? Did you understand risk/reward properly? Did you have a Socratic understanding of your own ignorance? Did you have enough experience to know for a fact that something was a bad choice? Were you aware enough of your own biology working against you to counteract its bad decisions?
I bet you were a lot more ignorant and inexperienced than a cursory glance at old mistakes from your current point in life lets you realize. I know I was.
@Dr. J
Then, they covertly use men’s disempowerment to invalidate men’s attraction-based performance standards, devaluing their high SMV “sisters” in the process (intrasexual competition).
You noticed this too? It’s literally created a situation where the higher a woman’s SMV, the more ridiculously small her choices are. Like a 9 or a 10 is guaranteed to settle and be unsatisfied UNTIL she hits the wall, then after that she can meet a guy she’s attracted to because her SMV falls as his rises.
It strikes me that this system is no coincidence; the original stereotype for the woman leading the feminist charge is fat, ugly, and unfeminine. A trifecta of undesirable traits that results in an utterly unattractive woman. Were that kind of woman to structure a social movement to empower women (while harming men), what kind of woman would she empower? Why, an unattractive woman of course. How would she do that? By pushing a woman’s socially acceptable standards up so high that your standard HB9 or HB10 is eliminated from competition by her own unrealistic standards, while trying to give HB3s like herself a shot at the males in the HG5+ range.
Of course what you wind up with is a bunch of frustrated decent men that can’t seem to get women above their minimum acceptable floor (it’s really hard to find dudes of any SMV that want less than an HB5 and are worth partnering with), resulting in a squeeze on males that pushes many of them out of the market altogether. Meanwhile our HB3 angry feminazi is still not getting enough play, so things clearly still aren’t equal. Cue more shaming, more cries of “MAN UP!” from the media, and more men leaving the pool.
Honestly the whole thing is sort of hard to sum up in how fucked up it is and how bad the results actually are.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:56 pm
@ Bluepillprofessor
Thank you. To be clear, I have no intention of furthering any particular model, equalitarian or otherwise. I apply the model or models that best fit the data as I see it. Sure, I’m not perfect and may get stuck here and there, but I adjust over time with new data. Beyond that, I do try to avoid falling into the black-or-white thinking that is rampant in both the manosphere and femosphere. Women shriek that it is “all social construction and the sexes are the same”, so men knee-jerk react back that it is all “evolved biology and the sexes are different”. In my experience, the most accurate explanation is often a mix of both in between.
As I said somewhere above, the general process and power plays for dominance are the same, but the goals for doing so differ for men and women. In other words, both want to be in charge and get their way…but what they do when they are in charge is different. That is why, as you note, when a man is dominant in a relationship, he does not rock the boat. It serves his imperative to keep things calm and ensure sexual access from a pleasant woman. In contrast, when a woman is dominant in a relationship, she does rock the boat. It serve her imperative to create continuous challenges and demands to establish the man’s SMV, extract resources, and get rid of a low value man.
In short, the sexes are the same socially, in that both use similar social tactics and power plays to try and establish dominance and control in relationships. However, they are also different in what they do when they establish dominance and control, because their evolved, biological imperatives differ. Again, it is not all nature or nurture, all same or different, but both.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:12 pm
@Sun, would you mind terribly if I used your first quote to Glenn for something significant?
January 14th, 2015 at 11:25 pm
@Rollo
Not at all. Go for it.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:27 pm
@ Rollo,
I never said hypergamy was socially constructed. Of course that is biological for all of the reasons you cite. Women have a dual mating strategy for good genes and resources. No argument there.
My argument is that how acutely men feel the need to perform up to those standards is determined by his SMV. If he is high in value, then he will be meeting or exceeding those standards, and will not feel a pressure of performance.
My argument is also that men have standards for women, particularly on reproductive value. Usually they matter less, because the woman is often biologically higher in reproductive value. So, she is usually +1 to him or more anyway and in the dominant position to choose or reject him.
Nevertheless, if he is a high SMV guy and exceeds her standards, then he is in the position to choose. She is then in a position to perform up to his standards and demands. She is then the one who feels the pressure to perform.
Social engineering has therefore not created hypergamy, women’s standards, men’s standards, or the notion of performance. What it is doing is devaluing men and making it harder for them to be high value, dominate, and therefore have choice. So, they are further subjected to women’s standards, feel more pressure, and get the short end of the stick.
Beyond that…social engineering has not created love, ideal or otherwise. Nevertheless, I would argue that Ovid did not wax poetic about idealized love because he was a man. He did so because he was not dominant (dropped out of law to write poetry, divorced twice, and exiled). The lower value and less dominant person in a relationship, man or woman, experience those feelings. If you don’t believe me, listen to Adelle.
Honestly, I feel like we are not communicating clearly. Have I made my thoughts more clear now? Because, your responses don’t seem to be lining up with what I mean. Internet chatting is an inferior medium for explanation I think…
January 15th, 2015 at 1:32 am
This married woman came onto me online. As in she sends me a message basically saying that she wanted to give me a blowjob. I responded. We didn’t even “sext”, like we talked a little about sex but we didn’t actually do anything. She talked to me a lot about how unhappy she was with her husband and how she’d asked for an open relationship, had an affair before, etc. after the initial messages. Plus it’s online, so like, what the hell, right?
Oh yeah. That was my first mistake.
Long story short, shit hit the fan when apparently she told her husband or he read her messages or something. I got some death threats and some of her family members messaging me. I have no idea who these people are. It’s mutual friends online, which is how she found me. So they told some other friends I have and now they’re out of my life.
I have no idea what she said. On my end, I’m just a random guy. She sent the first message and I responded.
Now I’m being blamed for responding. I pointed out that she sent the first message and it just deflected to “You shouldn’t have responded.”
This lady is also a lot older than me. Doesn’t even live in the same state. So all of a sudden I’m the most horrible person on earth for “coming between” these people’s marriage.
Normally I’d feel guilty. But I didn’t really do anything. And then they’re trying to dump all their problems on me, as if I created everything by responding to her coming onto me.
Absolutely ZERO responsibility on her part for sending me the first message and initiating everything. I was completely to blame according to everyone. I didn’t even know who she was, and apparently her coming onto me — it was my responsibility to not respond. It wasn’t her responsibility to do that in the first place.
One MAJOR thing I’m learning here: the lack of guilt. I’m actually pissed off. Maybe I shouldn’t have rustled any feathers but I got so sick of getting messages to “stop talking to her” after I already did stop, that I threatened legal action and told them to go fuck themselves.
Sorry to hijack here. Just don’t know where else to go. To everyone else right now I’m a complete asshole. And it’s not like we even DID anything, even to the extent that you can do anything ONLINE.
Am I crazy? Or are these people hyper reacting?
I’ve known guys that had actual affairs with married women before, like my friend fucking this girl he knew was married, his husband called him and told him to stop and he kept doing it anyway. This was like a ONE DAY interaction that didn’t even go anywhere, and all of a sudden I’m a homewrecker.
My ONLY salvation has been this blog and TRP. I won’t be messing around with married women again, judging how this went, as harmless as I thought the Internet was, like seriously…
…but absolutely NO responsibility on her part? Really? I said if it wasn’t me, it would’ve been some other guy. But she literally sent the FIRST MESSAGE…and after I said I didn’t want to be involved anymore after I knew what was going on, she kept messaging me. I should’ve blocked her then and there but I felt bad for her — that was my second mistake. And EQUALLY BIG MISTAKE.
But again…normally I’d feel guilty, but seeing how fucked this is, and how I’m being blamed for everything and being held completely accountable when she’s the one that initiated it — not to mention we didn’t even DO anything — death threats? Getting all these hate messages and railing on me about how I’m — get this —
TAKING ADVANTAGE of her
“I know what you wrote, how dare you take advantage of a mentally ill person”
MENTALLY ILL? What the fuck? Like what the hell are these people smoking?
The worst part is God only knows what version the family told all these other people I know. I have no idea what kind of BS they made up but I’m pretty sure it’s nothing like my version of what happened.
I don’t have any Xanax but I sure could use some right now. Jesus Christ.
All a learning lesson…
….so someone here correct me if I’m wrong, but is this at least somewhat of an example of women being absolved of any and all responsibility for their actions?
I mean seriously….and I thought I had problems.
January 15th, 2015 at 1:58 am
@softek
Nice job man, offers for unsolicited hummers, good work.
You are just seeing deep seated cognitive dissonance at work. “It couldn’t possibly be the woman’s fault, I mean a woman wouldn’t do that would she? Nah, impossible, kill the man, it was surly his fault”.
This is the same line of reasoning that men step out on their marriages far more often then women. Ok, if that’s the case, there are a few slut women somewhere getting laid a whole hell of a lot with all manner of horny men. It’s a trope that simply props up and protects the FI.
You are in the thick of it now. Can you spin it into some good pre-selection vibes? “Damm, I got bitches hunting me down on line to suck my dick, gotta swat em off like flys, now who wants some of Softek’s love?”
January 15th, 2015 at 2:00 am
Oh yeah, and she also picked you because she guessed you wouldn’t have the social intelligence to battle her hamster jiujitsu if it all came to light as it has. She did not and does not know that you have the manual.
What do you want to bet she’ll be back in say four weeks?
January 15th, 2015 at 2:03 am
I am more fucking pissed off than I’ve been in a while as I’ve thought over the past few experiences I had.
Including the one I just mentioned, being told to “grow a pair…or like, ten” by that girl on New Year’s when I had an anxiety attack when she tried to kiss me, started crying saying I was rejecting her when I told her I have panic disorder and she didn’t care, and tonight at my friend’s, his sister who LJBF’d me months ago, who I see there once in a while, just casually shows me some pic from some dating app she’s using of a message some guy sent her…making fun of all the guys she gets messages from, then shows me some “funny” meme of some guy getting “FriendZoned” and looking pathetic, and she was laughing while she showed it to me.
Like, hello? Are you directly making fun of me despite the fact that you knew I was really broken up over that? What the fuck is wrong with all of you? What did I ever do to you?
And what am I going to do with all this rage? The only thing I can do is direct it towards self-improvement. But now I’m wondering how much I can even do with women, with how much they talk. How long will it be — even if I AM successful with women, how do I protect myself against getting a bad reputation or getting into trouble, having rumors spread against me, etc.?
I’m afraid of even hooking up. That “cold spike of fear” — our society is gearing towards making men AFRAID of sexual interaction, while simultaneously ABSOLVING women of AS MUCH RESPONSIBILITY AS POSSIBLE for any sexual behavior they WILLINGLY CHOOSE to engage in….
ALL I EVER WANTED was a girlfriend to support me, a committed relationship complete with a sex life, and just live my life in peace.
And yet even from the girls I thought I was “close” to and knew forever, I get LJBF’d by, and not only that, but MADE FUN OF.
And so I replied to a message from a married woman that said she wanted to suck my dick. Does that make me evil? She was in her 40’s or something for fuck’s sake. And they’re treating her like a child that I was taking advantage of.
Why is it wrong for a man to respond, but not wrong for a married woman to send a message like that?
So the self respect is developing nicely, and I’ve told quite a few people to fuck off lately.
But I am deeply unhappy with all of this, and the depression is coming back in full swing.
I don’t care about anyone understanding what I’ve been through. It’s that I feel like it’s physically impossible for me to let go of the past and be happy with the present, because the society we’re in is completely counter to the kind of life I would like to have.
Like I can let go of the past. And move beyond this. If something better were possible. But I’m starting to believe that it’s not.
Is it really this bad? What can we do? Is TRP only good for knowing how fucked we are?
If the legal system wasn’t involved, and also people being fucking nutjobs because of this feminized society, getting hyper violent for no real reason other than they’re brainwashed —
— if it wasn’t for that, I’d feel a lot better. But there are real threats out there.
I just feel like I got fucked. Spend 9 years as an incel, have a 5 day break, spend another 4 years as an incel, have a 2 hour break that gets interrupted, and I also had a panic attack, then another 1 year of incel, then a single blowjob after the girl tried to verbally tear me to pieces, complaining about how hard women have it and telling me to grow a pair…..
…am I just one of the worse casualties that this society produces? What did I do to deserve all of this when all I ever had were the best of intentions for as long as I can remember?
All I did wrong was act perfectly in line with the FI….believed in love and romance and wanted to be with a girl who loved me. THAT is what I’m TRULY GUILTY OF.
Now I see why people want to be hermits. I’m already having fantasies of having a private island all to myself and just have people leave me the fuck alone. Jesus….
..and I know I’m being very emotional right now because my nerves are frayed at the moment, but still. Deep down I’d imagine most guys who are Red Pill aware can relate to me. I’m still trying to have hope that there’s something better on the “other side” but it’s starting to look pretty bleak.
January 15th, 2015 at 2:08 am
@ agent p
lol, that made me feel a little better, thanks.
It’s the legal stuff and death threats that really throws me off. If I wasn’t afraid someone was going to try to hurt me or someone was going to make up some BS story, like I’m pretty sure this lady did — she really might be crazy, sounded like she told people that I was saying “inappropriate things” to her and of course didn’t mention how she started it AND kept pressing me to talk to her —
…..like seriously, if I wasn’t afraid for my personal safety and well-being, I would have much less of a problem telling people to fuck off. As in, I don’t care, stop bothering me, you are a pussy, goodbye.
Anyone relate to me on this? The legal stuff and personal safety stuff? I have no moral hangups about banging married women or someone’s girlfriend but people steeped in the FI will literally be ready to nail you to the cross if they catch you doing any of that.
January 15th, 2015 at 2:17 am
@ Glenn ” Really, I lived in a sort of cognitive dissonance, “keeping two sets of books” as Christopher Hitchens called it”
Ahh, I miss that guy.
January 15th, 2015 at 2:51 am
@Softek
Hahahahaha, oh god bro, so it’s story time.
The only time I fucked around with a married chick was when her husband knew she had developed a crush on me when their marriage went to shit. We spent YEARS talking but not doing anything because I just didn’t want to have a part in ruining a marriage that could be saved. Then it happened. He cheated on her despite nothing ever happening.
Alright, maybe I couldn’t blame the dude. I mean hell, if I put myself in his shoes, I was better looking than him plus he’s like over 300 lbs at only a couple inches taller than me. Even at my most beta times, I wasn’t as beta as this pussy is. Hell when I met him, he was so stiff and socially awkward. Think he wanted to beat my ass immediately, but realize he couldn’t do it. Plus I was halfway ignoring him so I’m sure I came off aloof as all get out. So yeah, from his perspective no way to tell whether she and I did anything or not.
But then he does the stupid part: he threatens to kill her if she ever cheats on him. Cue her showing up at my house.
3 years down the road, she and I haven’t done anything more in that time because I had my last serious LTR. He has been haranguing her for 8 years at that point about me. She finally fesses up. He freaks, initiates a divorce within a couple weeks, then he starts trying to harass me including trying to impersonate me online. Ended that real quick using local online anti-harassment laws. He tries to posture and threaten me. I inform him that I always keep my handgun loaded and available, I’m in excellent shape, and I’m trained in martial arts. He’s welcome to make good on said threats but he better be a damn good shot. He’s been quiet for almost a year now.
Funny thing is, he cheated on her first when their marriage was in the shitter, but he blames me for their marriage ending. The beta hamster is strong. Very very strong. Almost as strong as the female hamster.
January 15th, 2015 at 3:03 am
@Softek
And to make you feel better about your situation: you’re dealing with Internet Tough Guys. Do not back down, do not supplicate, and do not show weakness. Tell them in no uncertain terms to get fucked with a scorching hot rake and talk to your lawyer if they want any further communication with you. They will do absolutely nothing. Not a goddamn thing. ITGs bark but they NEVER bite. They are universally pussies.
Don’t even use the phrase “I’m sorry but…” In fact the word “sorry” should not come from you in any way at any point. You have nothing to apologize for. They sure fucking do though. Death threats? To strangers? For something other than you killing one of their own? Yeah, you’ve got them by the legal balls already.
January 15th, 2015 at 3:20 am
@Softek
“even if I AM successful with women, how do I protect myself against getting a bad reputation or getting into trouble, having rumors spread against me, etc.? ”
Slow your roll there buddy. That whole, what if I get a bad rap thing? The greatest mistake I ever made in my sweet young life was listen to chicks when then would say, “hey mister, you have a bad reputation, I know you, you’re Agent P, and you fuck chicks and then run!”. I foolishly took that accusation to heart after a while and resolved to try and tidy up my rap. The single worst thing I ever did, I may as well have been throwing money and coke onto bonfires. I did not understand that my reputation preceded me, e.g. I had this pussy slaying rap that was pure gold for pre-selection. I could show up at a party and chicks would want to get in my face to bitch at me, I mean flirt with me, I mean fuck me! I threw it away trying to “clean up” my reputation.
If they are spreading rumors, it means you are on the social radar. If you are nothing socially speaking, you won’t be mentioned except as the periodic butt of a joke. I cannot strongly enough encourage you to get a bad rap if what you desire is some poon. Have you read nothing here? Chicks dig jerks and bad boys. If they confer that title on you, accept it with a grin and a laugh it means your social stock is rising.
January 15th, 2015 at 3:35 am
@softek, what Sun said, they are paper tigers growling over the interweb, fuck them. Maintain your frame, don’t blink, you’ll be fine.
It’s easy to think after reading a ton of manosphere stuff that the whole world is aligned against you. Even if it is, it doesn’t actually matter that much, you haven’t done anything wrong, at all. Telling them to go fuck themselves is a good start. Answering their accusations comes off as if you have something to hide. The less you say, the better.
If the husband is going nuclear, it’s because deep in his little wittle blue pill heart, he knows his wife IS A SLUT and probably did exactly what you said and offered to blow you. It scares the piss out of him and he is in full blown denial, as he is staring down hypergamy even though he doesn’t cognitively understand it. He knows in his heart that his woman is a feral creature and she is acting out in the worst of ways and the worst part is he feels powerless to stop it.
Man I read your posts a few months ago and you were a puddle of piss, now you’re essentially beating ho’s off with a stick. Sure they may not be tens but a few months ago you were nowhere near where you are today. In June, if someone had said, “Softek, 2015 is going to be crazy, some bitch is going to straight up offer to blow you without even having met you”. You would have said that guy was out of his tree. Yet here you are, either making mad progress or trolling the shit out of this forum.
I encourage you to step back from your blue pill dream of a “girl friend who you can just have sex with” and consider thinking a little bigger. The relationship thing will come in time, if you can get the milk now without committing to one cow, I’d say you should start making some milk shakes.
Next time some chick is pulling crazy interweb talk, or strange texts that seem even a little out of the ordinary, just screen capture all of it. Don’t over think it, don’t ruminate on it, just capture it and store it. As you have proven today, it’ll be handy later.
PS, if you just keep your cool with all this craziness you have found yourself in right now, congratulations, you pass a big fat shit test.
January 15th, 2015 at 3:39 am
@ Sun Wukong
Haha. Yep. Story time.
Beta Hamster. I forgot about that one. So that’s what that is. When the guy told me to stop sending messages to his wife, I said okay, I’m done. He says thank you. And then the next day he throws in something like by the way, you’re lucky I don’t live near you, otherwise you’d be eating out of a straw for the rest of your life.
While I imagined pounding his fat beta ass into the ground if he ever laid a hand on me, I responded by saying my dad was a cop and that I’d done work for some lawyers that owe me favors, and threatening someone is a criminal offense, so feel free to keep sending me threats so I can make a better case for myself. He shut up after that.
His wife kept trying to talk to me. I didn’t block her right away. Kept trying and trying and pressing me. And I said I didn’t want any involvement with this.
Her daughter ends up messaging me tonight telling me to stop ruining their family and that whole bit about “how dare I take advantage of her.” Yeah, a woman probably twice my age, who came onto me in a fucking messenger program. Who keeps trying to talk to me and begging me not to delete her.
She ended up telling me to leave her and her family alone, wouldn’t listen to any of my explanation about anything. So I ended by saying I honestly didn’t care, that I’d be happy to leave her alone, and to go fuck herself. Blocked.
That was actually the most honest thing I think I’ve ever said in my life.
But seriously. This woman is a full grown adult, and yet having excuses made for her by her daughter, and all the blame goes on me — and the beta husband’s hamster just drank a 10 pack of Monster and is just about having a heart attack. Not even gonna start on the daughter’s hamster.
I’ve gotten pretty callous. If I knew I would be safe and that nothing would happen to me, I would love to meet up with her and fuck her and then leave her, and ruin their whole family for being such assholes to me, and generally being so fucking stupid. My childhood was completely fucked up and I guess I have some sadistic pleasure in fantasizing about that, but these kids are full grown adults so I don’t really think that counts.
As my grandpa always used to say whenever someone started crying, “You want to cry? I’ll give you something to cry about.”
Heh.
This was on FB though and the thing I’m worried about is that these people might know where I live. I can’t believe I was so stupid to have my info on there without thinking — since then I’ve changed it to a fake name and fake hometown. I just got used to only having friends I live near on there, but I added a few new people and it never crossed my mind.
That’s really the only thing I’m worried about. Apparently they were friends with a few other friends I have and they blocked me immediately, God only knows what story was going around, but it sure as hell wasn’t anything close to my perspective. I just don’t like that they could find out where I live.
Chances are nothing’ll happen, and I tend to be extremely paranoid, but people can be fucking nutjobs. I killed my Beta hamster, and it’s hard for me to imagine now how anyone could get that upset over something I see as so obviously hopelessly stupid.
Oh, but they can. And Oh, but they do.
I took some Xanax and am gonna call it a night. Fuckin HELL, MAN. Yeah, story time.
I shared another one with my friend too. He’s in this completely fucked up situation with 3 or 4 girls that more or less hate each other because they all want him, and he’s at the point where he hates all of them. He pulled a mega “fuck you” move tonight — very sly, very biting, very deep.
Basically he went to her house, took back a very expensive gift that he had bought her that he’d been asking her to return but she never did, and left something for her that she gave to him as an apology for cheating on him a while back.
Took back what belonged to him and gave back what belong to her. I was so happy to hear that. In and out, quick and easy, no drama. But a pretty clear message.
Anyway, I thought I had issues. I’m seeing now that way more other people are way more fucked up than I am. I’m like the king of chill over here. I just get thrown off by how fuckin’ psycho other people can be, and typically are.
Xanax is kicking in. LOL. Good to be getting a taste of male bonding. RP male bonding, specifically. Having support helps a lot. People that are in BP reality would just think I’m an asshole, and would ruin my connections with them….which all in all might be for the best. Heh.
-dies-
poor Softek getting his intro over the past month or so into the real RP man world — or I should say, just getting my feet wet. It’s been a harrowing experience so far, to say the least, for such a newbie.
January 15th, 2015 at 3:51 am
@ agent p
I freaked and deleted the messages a day or two ago like a retard. I don’t know what I was thinking, probably residual feelings of having ‘done something wrong’ when I didn’t do anything wrong in reality.
I only have a few. None of the original ones. But just her sending me messages saying she wishes I could meet her son, he needs a good friend like me, and giving me a compliment on how good I was at playing music.
But yeah, no trolling here. I’m amazed myself if I think about it, but the change has been so gradual and I’ve been focusing so much on changing that I don’t even remember how I used to be. It’s like another lifetime or something. Crazy to think about it like that.
January 15th, 2015 at 3:52 am
@Softek
For the future when shit like that goes down, hold frame hold frame hold frame. Do not explain yourself, do not argue with anybody. Treat them like they just said the stupidest thing in the world and that every word out of their mouth puts more stupid in the atmosphere that other people might breathe in. “Fuck off. I have nothing to say to you.” Be as condescending and terse as you possibly can. Look down your nose on them from 50 stories in the air.
Now for the legal side of it (your dad being a cop and you knowing lawyers) when shit like that jumps off, think strategically as well. Saying almost nothing is not only holding frame and being alpha, but has the incredibly wonderful bonus of making your lawyer very very happy in the event that anything else happens. Once somebody is making threats against, take a brief moment to talk down to them, assert your frame, and tell them any further communication will be directed to your lawyer. Don’t block them on media though. Take every fucking message they give you. Those aren’t “insults” or “threats”, they’re “evidence”.
Just because you’re a Man and you want to be able to stand your ground doesn’t mean you can’t exercise good strategy while doing so. You don’t want to do shit just to appear tough. You want to do shit to win. Winning is watching the other guy shit himself when you don’t cower, panic, or overreact.
January 15th, 2015 at 4:11 am
Or there’s always the advice I’ve heard:
Be like Han
January 15th, 2015 at 5:04 am
At office, I keep my distance from women. Now, from some, considerably younger ones, I get very subdued IOIs. Now, there is a lady, 34, attractive, hitting the wall, in a LTR with a high-value beta, who had been throwing IOIs at me in the past, even DTF body language, yet I always was circumspect around her (office + her LTR). Thing is, this lady fives me shit from time to time, and I can’t decide whether she’s just giving me bad attitude or she’s shit-testing me. Any opinions, gentlemen?
January 15th, 2015 at 5:19 am
Not Born This Morning
January 14th, 2015 at 6:40 pm
NBTM – Never have children.
January 15th, 2015 at 5:25 am
Women in the workplace. See one get a beat down in public:
Male readers don’t think sexism in science exists
http://www.ecnmag.com/blogs/2015/01/male-readers-don%E2%80%99t-think-sexism-science-exists
January 15th, 2015 at 5:39 am
Softek
January 15th, 2015 at 3:39 am
This woman is a full grown adult, and yet having excuses made for her by her daughter, and all the blame goes on me
Young women these days…..
I’d use other words, but I have a daughter.
They are clueless. I tried to RP my daughter and she would have none of it. Very bright girl (top of her class in ChemE). At least a 9.5 (models). And totally into equalist relations. But she is young (24). I expect when she hits the wall (she is aware of THAT) she might be amenable to reason. But maybe not.
January 15th, 2015 at 7:39 am
@DrJ, re: “Social engineering has therefore not created hypergamy, women’s standards, men’s standards, or the notion of performance. What it is doing is devaluing men and making it harder for them to be high value, dominate, and therefore have choice. So, they are further subjected to women’s standards, feel more pressure, and get the short end of the stick.”
I agree. Getting back to the sexual conflict aspect, 100% of the sexual revolution was intended to make it easier for a woman to resist bearing a man’s child, and harder for a man to overcome her resistance.
re: “The lower value and less dominant person in a relationship, man or woman, experience those feelings.”
No. The love feeling is biological, not about dominance. Males in love are neurologically deceived into thinking their woman is the only one, while women in love are neurologically deceived into thinking their man is the best one. BTW did you see this recipe for falling in love? It works, and is not about dominance. (Except to the extent of convincing someone to follow the recipe.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/fashion/modern-love-to-fall-in-love-with-anyone-do-this.html
January 15th, 2015 at 7:46 am
@agent p, re: “I cannot strongly enough encourage you to get a bad rap if what you desire is some poon.”
+1, +2, … ∞
January 15th, 2015 at 7:47 am
@Softek, re: “apparently she told her husband or he read her messages or something”
Women don’t do Dread well, plus it doesn’t work the way women think.
January 15th, 2015 at 7:49 am
Alright, I think I have it now…
I’m saying, at a social level, that men and women both have standards for each other. These standards are on different dimensions. Nevertheless, both feel pressure to live up to those standards, in order to obtain status, value, and get what they want. I am calling that “performance”.
I think Rollo is saying that, on a biological level, men have unchanging standards for women, while women have shifting standards for men (based on ovulation). So, these standards are different because one is a static target and one is a changing target. This also means that a woman’s value to a man (and ability to get what she wants) is fairly stable, whereas a man’s value to a woman (and ability to get what he wants) changes on a cycle. Rollo is calling men’s attempts to hit that moving and changing target “performance” too (hence my confusion).
If we combine both things, however, and look at them from BOTH the social and biological level, then we have a more complete picture…
1) Both men and women “shit test”, in that they use power plays to be dominant and get what they want (social level). However, what men want is static, whereas what women want is dynamic and changing (biological level). Therefore, when a man is leading, things are stable, he is getting what he wants, and does not have to “shit test” anymore. However, when a woman is leading, things are unstable because what she wants changes, and she has to “shit test” routinely to get her ever-changing need met.
2) Both men and women also experience “love”. The intensity of that feeling is generally about the relative value and status of the partners to each other. Specifically, the higher a person perceives the value and status of their partner, often relative to their own, the more intensely they will feel “love” for them (social level). However, a man’s standards are stable, so his perception of a woman’s value and feeling of love toward her are stable. A woman’s standards change, so her perception of a man’s value and feelings of love toward him change too (biological level). This results in men’s feelings being of stable intensity, whereas women seem too fall in-and-out of love. Thus, men wish women would stop shifting their standards and be more consistent with their feelings too.
——–
Thanks to you and all. This has been valuable for me, in that I was indeed too heavily focused on the social level. I tend to do so, however, not based on some equalitarian agenda, but because I’m primarily interested in helping people persuade, influence, and get what they want (myself included) – and that is the level of analysis that offers tactics and solutions to do so (e.g. game). Taking another look at many of the questions here though, guys seem to be asking more “why did she do that?”, than “how can I get what I want next time?” The “why” explanation does indeed start on a biological differences level of analysis (e.g. red pill). Thus, the bio differences heavy focus of much of these discussions.
For those who do want to know “how” though, I would encourage adding a social level of analysis too. So, if men find it valuable here as another perspective, I will continue to add it. Beyond that, it is good to know I’m just more on the “game” end of the manosphere spectrum myself in these discussions.
January 15th, 2015 at 8:21 am
@DrJ re: “However, when a woman is leading, things are unstable because what she wants changes, and she has to “shit test” routinely to get her ever-changing need met.”
Good stuff!
re: “I would encourage adding a social level of analysis too. So, if men find it valuable here as another perspective, I will continue to add it.”
Please do. But remember the War Bride phenomenon. Levels of social value and Dominance and love interact extremely differently in men vs women. The two sexes have to be treated differently even though they’re intertwined.
January 15th, 2015 at 8:22 am
Dr. Jeremy, VERY compelling arguments. In fact, your take seems to explain damn near everything I’ve experienced/witnessed including my own actions and feelings.
I seem to learn something new with each blog post. Can’t compliment you enough Rollo T.
January 15th, 2015 at 8:30 am
@ jf12
Thank you. I have read Dr. Aron’s work. On a social dynamic level though, the effects of his process can be explained with compliance and value. When we give them personal details about ourselves or allow them to stare at us, we are in some way being compliant with them. Our acquiescence to them and investing in the interaction leads us to assume they are higher in value. Thus, we feel “love” and emotion about them. More compliance/investment = more value = more love. The fact that the couple “took turns” in the process allowed them to both experience those loving feelings…but not at exactly the same time.
In the story, the times when the woman felt “love”/emotion included.
1) When the man suggested that they conduct the experiment and she complied and followed along.
2) When he asserted that they “both liked each other” unilaterally as a commonality between them and she silently agreed and gulped beer.
3) When she had to comply and take her turn in the game, paying him a compliment and say what she liked about him – which made “certain positive qualities belonging to one person explicitly valuable to the other”.
4) When she gave into the vulnerable feeling during eye contact and allowed him to “really see” her.
Of course, it is biological too. Interacting with someone of high value and trying to please them gives us a squirt of dopamine and makes us feel good, especially when they are a challenge (just like gambling). So, it is BOTH about compliance/value on the social level AND neurology and chemicals on the bio level. Otherwise, “demonstrating value”, “being hard to get”, and “compliance tests” (social), would not leads to “tingles” (biological).
For more, see my article:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201105/make-them-love-you-taking-not-giving
January 15th, 2015 at 8:31 am
@DrJ, re: tactics.
It is extremely easy to take the sexual conflict stuff at face value, and one doesn’t have to take it to an extreme. Given that the male strategy is to overcome female resistance leads, lets say, to a lot of tactics that *work* in practice. Obviously you can’t recommend a guy chasing a woman down, pinning her to the floor, etc. And if you’re like the majority of men you would shy away from even thinking about it, much less advising someone to behave as if.
So, understand that you’re crippled in your thinking, and necessarily your tactical advice, if it isn’t *primarily* directed towards defeating resistance in the context of conflict. I wouldn’t even say that you would be fighting with one arm tied behind your back; you would be fighting with both arms tied and blindfolded.
January 15th, 2015 at 8:38 am
@DrJ, re: “So, it is BOTH about compliance/value on the social level AND neurology and chemicals on the bio level. Otherwise, “demonstrating value”, “being hard to get”, and “compliance tests” (social), would not leads to “tingles” (biological).”
Yes, but the other, and bigger, point for me is that it works differently (NOT parallel) for men and for women. Good article, btw, I haven’t read much before last year.
re: taking. When a woman is forced into service, when she even reluctantly prepares a sandwich and it is violently taken from her, she responds totally differently than a man.
January 15th, 2015 at 8:43 am
re: women of “high value” and challenges
I truly don’t think it works that way, at all. I truly believe I would value compliance as much or more from an unusually compliant woman as from the normal i.e. uncompliant woman.
The point of overcoming resistance is NOT to see how much resistance you can overcome, but simply to be able to overcome. In contrast, the point of resistance is to resist as much overcoming as you can. These strategies are in no way parallel.
January 15th, 2015 at 8:46 am
So, why do so many women think being challenging is more attractive to men?
January 15th, 2015 at 8:47 am
Why do so many women erroneously think men have rape fantasies?
January 15th, 2015 at 8:48 am
Then, tell me again about women’s shit-testing in the context of her attraction to a man.
January 15th, 2015 at 9:21 am
@ jf12
Here is what I don’t understand… Why is “the bigger point” that these similar macro-level dynamics “work differently” for men and women on a micro-level?
Let’s say you want to train a rabbit and a dog to do tricks. On a macro-level, it is important to understand how all animals similarly respond to rewards to change behavioral frequency. On a micro-level, it is also important to know that each animal finds different food rewarding (carrot vs. steak) and can perform different behaviors as tricks (hop vs. fetch). To me, both are necessary.
January 15th, 2015 at 9:30 am
@DrJ, re: bigger
The bigger point about the interaction between a cat and a mouse is that the cat is trying to eat the mouse. The behaviors are different because the motivations are *opposed*.
The only reason to try to focus on similarities, such as “they both have whiskers”, is to distract from the bigger point.
January 15th, 2015 at 9:52 am
@ jf12
The cat-vs-mouse conflict is a one-sided model. The mouse does not want anything from the cat. In that case, the over-arching dynamic is indeed not similar for the cat and mouse.
With humans, however, the conflict is usually two sided. Yes, each wants something different from the other (like two nations with different resources) – BUT they both want something from the other. So, the over-arching dynamic of power, value, and compliance that ultimately decides the conflict and outcome is the same.
Then again, I am making the assumption that the man DOES want anything at all from the woman. If he has no use for her, then it is more of a one-sided cat-mouse dynamic, with him simply learning to avoid the danger. Perhaps that is a MGTOW vs. Game mindset difference?
January 15th, 2015 at 9:52 am
@jf12
“Why do so many women erroneously think men have rape fantasies?”
Can we say “projection”?
January 15th, 2015 at 10:13 am
@ Sun Wukong – Holy shit, thanks for that. You homed right in on it for me – I’ve been struggling to find a place of compassion for myself. Pre-Red Pill and post, I’ve always tried to be rational and responsible in my life, so now that I see more clearly what’s up, I have to assess the responsibility in order to know what mistakes I’ve made. It’s this kind of honesty that has helped me progress in all things I endeavor in, but it’s brutal and I’m honest enough with myself to look squarely at where I’m responsible for the messes I’ve made because of my own decisions.
But you correctly point out that many of these ingrained ways of being were imposed on me long before I had a chance to choose anything. In fact, I was actively manipulated by a society drenched in gynocentrism and the feminine imperative IN ORDER to delude me. We talk esoterically here, but what about the basics? Why have women always been a “mystery” to men? Could it be that the core deceptiveness employed by women regarding their sexual strategies leads to this befuddlement of men? Yes, I get it now. I did make some bad decisions but I was steeped in horseshit – I know that.
Fyi, love the first paragraph, it was the kind of rough openness that I only hear from men, and it moved me. Can’t wait to see what Rollo does with it.
@ Dr. J – Very interesting reading but you contradict yourself as you were pushing social construction as more central at first, categorically, and I’m not sure your revised position covers it – but hey, I’m not a scientist and don’t ‘play one on TV’ (or the internet).
So I have a very basic question for you. How do you account for the power imbalance in sexual selection between men and women? To hear you describe it we all are solving the same sexual selection problem, just in different contexts and in different relative positions of power. How does that square with the biological truth that ‘women choose’. In fact in humans, something like 95% of sexual couplings occur due to female selection being the final gate one has to get through to go balls deep into the poonany,
Me? Truly, I’d have sex with any woman who didn’t gross me out, given half a chance, a couple of times a day, the more variety, the better. I’m a “yes” to at least 50% of the sexually mature women under 45 on the planet. In fact, I’m pursuing a wildly different strategy than women are – I’m going far and wide, she’s radically constraining, both at the top end of attractiveness and then with provisioning/Betaness and in terms of gross numbers. A man with enough opportunities will gladly mate with thousands of women in a lifetime, and probably be far short of the number he wanted to fuck. A woman? And we are all the “same”? I think JF12 is getting at these differences in a great way, and it reveals a gap in your POV.
The scales are wildly tipped in favor of women’s selection strategies and power. That’s why the first and best Red Pill truth to digest is that, in effect, “women choose” and men compete for that choice. And some 40-50% of men don’t even get to reproduce, and hence are losers in this grand mating game we are all running around in. When I read your commentary, I get no sense of these dynamics. Now I’m sure you can utter some brilliant sounding rhetoric in reply to show how my ham-handedness here had me miss the glistening genius of your elucidations, yet I’m hoping that you get my deeper point and take it to heart.
And it’s this. 500 million years of evolution have taken place under sexual selection strategies controlled by the female in large part. That we have been selected and that biological adaptations which make us compete well in this contest both occurred and result in a biology utterly shaped by this fundamental reproductive dynamic in humans should be seen as axiomatic. The more I read of say Edward O. Wlison and other theorists as the edge of evolutionary psychology and cultural anthropology, the more I realize behavior is genetically based and in many cases is at least “springloaded” in our firmware. Again, I’m no scientist, but the smart scientists I read laugh at the notion that social construction is the right frame of reference from which to look at all of this. There seems to be a much more complex interplay of biology, ecology and other material factors at play in all this.
Just sayin…
@ Softek – Agent P and Sun are giving you the best advice on earth. Congratulations on becoming the scumbag you always wanted to become in your heart of hearts. You want to really earn some alpha crud on your balls? Reach out to her and tell her you want to meet up and let her blow you. And while she’s doing so, close your eyes and pretend it’s one of those super hot girls you can’t seem to nail, grab a handful of hair and have at it. Then defriend her and never talk to her or them again. Set your FB to private, invitees only and move on with your fucking life. Block texts and emails if necessary – all doable in like 5 seconds. People like her are funny and your only response to anyone who questions you is, “Who doesn’t want a blowjob?” Said with a smirk. It doesn’t matter what they say or think. At all. They cannot harm you.
And having a “bad rep” is exactly the kind of vibe you are after. Get some tattoos and maybe pierce an eyebrow too, wear some leather jewelry. Seriously, you grunge/dirty yourself up a little bit and hot pussy will throw itself at you without much work, that’s if you are as built up and attractive as you claim to be (which I don’t doubt). But don’t fuck it up – such women only want short term sex from you. Don’t try and date them, don’t “work” – just close, close, close and never let them become “the one”. Next time some random broad asks you is you want a blowjob, ask her where and when (if you want one from her – i’ve turned down blowjobs, only from fatties and crazies, and not all of them…).
You are clearly projecting the right vibe. Give yourself a high five and move on. Your rage has everything to do with you, not them. You are used to being victimized and seem to revel in it – you are not being victimized by them. Rather, the flies are circling your head again – shoo them away, put on the bug zapper and move on with your life.
January 15th, 2015 at 10:16 am
I think Rollo is saying that, on a biological level, men have unchanging standards for women, while women have shifting standards for men (based on ovulation). So, these standards are different because one is a static target and one is a changing target. This also means that a woman’s value to a man (and ability to get what she wants) is fairly stable, whereas a man’s value to a woman (and ability to get what he wants) changes on a cycle. Rollo is calling men’s attempts to hit that moving and changing target “performance” too (hence my confusion).
Now I see what this is all about.
If that’s what low SMV men are forced to go through I understand the rise of MGTOW. If my wife pressured me to meet ever shifting performance standards I’d throw her out the door and I’d be happy to give up 50% of my assets. The endzones have to stay in the same spot for both me and my wife. Without simple rules you’ll live in endless conflict.
January 15th, 2015 at 10:20 am
re: “The mouse does not want anything from the cat.”
Mice want cats to HAVE to be bigger and faster.
January 15th, 2015 at 10:26 am
I’m so there. Exactly where B/el told me I’d wind up; she knew all long. And this was the cause of our second or third biggest blowup: I denied this is where I’d wind up.
It’s very meta. The female-preferred strategy is sexual conflict; the mouse wants eating it to be difficult. The male-preferred strategy is sexual cooperation; the (hungry) cat wants the eating to be easy. But preferring conflict is *itself* in conflict with preferring cooperation. Hence the Matrix is Feminine. Q.E.D.
January 15th, 2015 at 10:38 am
The Will to Power is the Will to Pounce.
“You’re not hungry” is a Jedi mind trick.
“There is no mouse for you” is a Jedi mind trick.
January 15th, 2015 at 10:40 am
Except as practice/training/building hunger
“Playing/pretending is fun enough; no need to actually eat me” is a Jedi mind trick.
January 15th, 2015 at 10:42 am
Women who are told that men desire larger-body women are happier with their weight
In all three studies, women had higher levels of satisfaction with their own weight after viewing the images of the larger women who were portrayed as attractive to men, while statistically controlling their actual weight.
Brought to you by Nabisco.
January 15th, 2015 at 10:52 am
“Acing the test”, then, is regarding the mouse’s stopping to squeakily roar as a fine opportunity.
January 15th, 2015 at 11:25 am
That kind of interaction between the niece and nephew is what lays the ground work for all the girls who state that they need somebody older than they are because they think girls mature faster than boys.
Every guy that’s charmed, kept entertained, or flirted with girl that he ended up getting to know has used the same playful teasing and other techniques that are used in passing the active and passive testing.
Whether it’s niece/nephew, cousins, father/daughter, or kids that get to know each other hanging out at the local rec center. The same charming ways that end up making a young girl to like/admire a boy that’s a few years older have the same affect with a woman dealing with a man who both are well into adulthood.
There’s not much difference in what a male does to create that type of dynamic with a female from 4th grade to 40. Which makes the people who reiterate girls being inherently more mature than boys more comical.
January 15th, 2015 at 11:40 am
@ Softek
You are learning a valuable lesson, and one that highlights a problem with the PUA ethos: if you choose to live by the rules of the jungle, the jungle will ensure that you live by all of them. It is Nature, and not the “people steeped in the FI”, that doesn’t let you pick and choose.
Leaving aside the true nature of women and our artificial society, you and some woman were taking the first steps toward depriving another man of his property (his wife), and possibly more. While you are certainly not the only one involved, or the one most responsible, you are not the victim here, that would be the man that you have “no moral hangups” about cuckolding.
Another problem with part of the PUA philosophy is that they are not living entirely in the world of men, but in a polluted female-imperative hybrid, in which actions shouldn’t have consequences, so that you can have it both ways.
Masculine rationality also involves appreciating cause-and-effect, like the incompatibility between wanting to live in a civilization that you didn’t create while living the path of the mud hut, about which (among other topics) Rob Fedders provides an excellent discussion here: http://no-maam.blogspot.ca/2012/06/keynesian-sexual-marketplace.html
And, as Samuel wrote (heartiste.wordpress[]com/2014/12/11/how-to-spot-a-charming-loverboy/#comment-636780):
“On the subject of why more men don’t naturally act alpha, remember that until recently acting alpha was very physically dangerous. You were likely to get in lots of fights and experience leadership conflict. Sleeping with women without committing to them would on the average make her father and brothers [and suitors or husband] want to kill you.
“Just acting like an alpha wouldn’t be enough. You would need the actual skills, status, and resources to survive and thrive in these situations. This more precisely explains why pre-selection is so powerful. When a woman knows that other women are sleeping with you, she knows (or would have known in earlier societies) you have the skills and status to act this way without someone killing you. Now, loser deadbeats with no meaningful status or skills can act like alphas and other men won’t kill them for it, but female preference has not yet evolved to reflect that.
“Modern society allows men to act the part of alpha without ever having to back it up.”
January 15th, 2015 at 11:41 am
@ Glenn
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. This was a great experience for me to really understand that — I’m used to being victimized and I used to revel in it.
People have always tried to give me their shit. I got a book called Running on Empty: Overcoming your Childhood Emotional Neglect and that’s been helping a bit, though I completely ignored the sections about ‘expressing your feelings’ —
— I DO think that getting in touch with my feelings IN PRIVATE is important, and the perfect example would be realizing that my rage is mine: it has nothing to do with them. It comes from reveling in being victimized because that’s all I knew growing up; my parents were immature and even at 4 years old, if I ever got upset or angry or threw a tantrum or anything my parents would lay shit on me like “you make life a living hell for us” or “you treat us like crap” — of course being that young, I had no other way to process it than to blame myself.
So I’m connecting the dots now, and seeing that tons of people have done this to me. And I would always react with guilt and shame. Even though I didn’t do anything wrong and the REAL issue is with their behavior and trying to make me responsible for their butthurt.
Huge sign of progress to me: I didn’t apologize ONCE for ANYTHING, and instead of allowing people to browbeat me with their sob stories, I just let them know that I don’t care and politely told them to go fuck themselves. As in, I said “Honestly I don’t care, go fuck yourself” and blocked….and then just thought to myself, “byebye, enjoy your butt frustration.”
She even tried to lecture me on “personal responsibility,” and I also told her, then hold your mom responsible for sending me that first message, she’s a grown woman….and also that her mom and dad issues aren’t my problem, so she should take her own advice.
I spent the time and effort reading blogs like this, working out, working insanely hard on improving myself, obsessively, to get the results I’ve been getting…and I don’t have to explain that to ANYONE.
it’s like you built a nice home for yourself, and now someone walks in and says “Fuck you, your house is nicer than mine, you should feel ashamed of yourself for making me look bad, take this house down right now. It makes me uncomfortable and I don’t like that you have a nice house and I don’t, you’re doing this to make people like me feel bad.”
To which the proper response is to quietly acknowledge to yourself that they’re victimizing themselves and creating their own problems for themselves and trying to blame you for it, and then say something along the lines of:
“Shut up and get the fuck out of my house.”
…and carry on with whatever it was you were doing.
I feel great this morning.
January 15th, 2015 at 11:43 am
Any questions?
January 15th, 2015 at 11:58 am
I admit I was snookered. Tina Plantamura’s Letter was her reaction attempt upon reading Candice Curry’s Letter.
https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/moms-amazing-letter-to-her-daughters-stepmom-104935124702.html
According to the back story, Candice was a “challenge” who got married in her mid 20s to a nice guy, had a kid, fell out of love, got unhaaaappy, got divorced, got a new lesser guy after hitting the Wall, had fertility issues, had triplets, got weird and tried to blow up the second marriage, etc. In other words, the usual story.
Meanwhile, Mr. Ex married a much more gorgeous much younger chick (a little more than a decade younger; Ashley was 21 when she got together with Mr. Ex) who is much sweeter to everyone and treats him like he’s walking on water. In other words Candice’s absolute worst nightmare. To a woman, him *marrying* the “large-breasted 21 year-old lingerie model” is the worst outcome, I think.
January 15th, 2015 at 12:18 pm
@ Rollo – I realize you are trying posit a purely biological driver for hypergamy for the purposes of clarity, but I’m curious about it from another perspective, and the graphs you just shared make the question obvious.
Women’s strategies change. Just stop there. This means they are likely adapting and optimizing as active agents acting on their own interests. Or is it that the underlying biology (hormones etc) change as women age? My take is that women are simply reacting to their changing place in the sexual marketplace, and when switching from mostly AF to mostly BB are merely reacting to the lack of interest from Alphas – is that a correct statement of what you believe?
The reason I ask this is that the stuff that I’m reading posits that female sexuality is actually much different from men’s as you’ve stated many times. I mean, if it’s accurate that a woman feels the same level of sexual desire as a man maybe one day a month (if that), how can we really be similar in how we behave? Are we really comparable? There are other aspects of female sexuality that are quite different from male sexuality as well. Female sexual orientation is much more plastic than men’s, hence the far more frequent occurrence of female bi or lesbian experimentation, moving across these boundaries fluidly is common for women.
Women seem in general to be more adaptive/opportunistic sexually and in this they can out maneuver men with their power of sexual selection, and in fact when politically, economically and socially empowered to do so will use all of those institutions and powers to deliver them the sexual choices and context they want to broaden their opportunities.
To me, understanding female and male sexuality separately is more valuable than any model that says, “Hey, we’re the same, just in different circumstances”.
My point is that women’s sexual opportunism is due to their different and lower sex drive. Does that make sense or am I simplifying too much?
January 15th, 2015 at 12:19 pm
@ eon
I see it completely differently: the guy’s wife isn’t his “property”, and the victim here is that guy — a victim of his own laziness and ignorance, and complete and utter lack of self-improvement.
I was having problems with women, so what did I do? I improved myself. I expended the effort to learn and grow.
This guy did NOT improve himself. He’s in a shitty situation and he’s doing absolutely nothing to improve himself. His wife told me she already had a REAL affair with one of her neighbors a while back and he was enraged about it. But he did absolutely nothing to try to improve his relationship with her. She said she’s talked to him multiple times about wanting a divorce, or an open relationship, and from what she told me, he never did or said anything about it, just ignored her.
It’s the same for people that are fat and lazy and complain about not being in shape. Being out of shape is one thing. But if you’re going to complain about it and then do absolutely nothing to improve yourself, you’re a whiner and a loser.
Is every guy entitled to having a wife like a piece of property?
That’s like the liberal ideology that, if taken far enough, everyone should have a nice house with a pool and jacuzzi without working for it.
All you have to do is put a ring on it, and then that’s it? What does that entitle him to? What is there to respect in that? He “fell in love”, put a ring on it, then abandoned all responsibility? Didn’t try to do anything to maintain the marriage, and that’s why his wife has been cheating on him? And he just blames the guys she’s fooling around with, even though she’s the one initiating it?
Rollo’s mentioned the even GREATER need for Game in marriage and LTRs in general. It’s not my fault that guys were brainwashed into thinking that simply getting into an LTR means it’s okay to drop responsibility and that you have to do no maintaining of the relationship. It’s not my fault they’re lazy and ignorant and don’t even care enough to do a Google search about how to potentially improve their situation.
“Fall in love” and then put a ring on her finger. Is that work on the same level of earning a living and buying a house? A ring doesn’t mean shit to hypergamy, and it isn’t my fault if some other guy doesn’t understand that.
I understand that for one reason: I did the work of improving myself and taking the time to search enough online to end up finding a blog like this. “Ask and you shall receive.” If people don’t care about solving their problems and take no initiative to do so, that’s their problem, not mine.
People that take no responsibility for themselves and like to blame other people for their failures — that is how lazy people think.
If it wasn’t me, it would’ve been someone else. Because this lady is seriously unhappy with her marriage, probably because the guy is an out of shape blathering mangina who never put in any effort into improving his relationships with women despite how fucked up they’ve apparently been.
You want something, you work for it and take it.
Women pre-select and that hasn’t changed. I improved myself and that’s why she wanted me and didn’t want him.
I’ve nearly lost my mind watching the years go by. 9 years after puberty before I even kissed a girl or saw any part of a girl naked, and why? I was mentally ill, on a ton of prescription medications that fucked with my head. But one thing I didn’t do was just wallow around blaming other people.
I was mad, sure, but for all the complaining I did or blaming of other people I did, I put even more time into building skills. I did not involved in drugs or alcohol. I did cut myself to deal with the stress but that was the most extreme thing I did. I spent massive amounts of time teaching myself how to play guitar, developing my social skills, all despite the fact that I had a very hard time making friends and could never find a girlfriend or even a date because of the way I was brought up — completely fucked up.
Nobody had any sympathy for me. I took responsibility for myself and deal with years of sexual and social rejection. It was hell on earth. Multiple times I almost committed suicide and I literally had no one to turn to for help in those hours.
But I willed myself to push through it and I kept improving and improving myself every way I could. And I’ve found the rewards: learning about NLP, being an excellent musician, finding ways to REALLY DEAL with my problems as a result of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEM…..
…whereas this dude just thinks that because he put a ring on it, he’s entitled to something. It’s like if someone buys a fake boxing champion belt and thinks that means something. Get in the ring and get fucked up by a guy that earned it and that closes the chapter in that storybook.
Nobody had any sympathy for me. I took it upon myself to improve myself. People that don’t do the same, I have no respect for. As far as I’m concerned they can go crawl in a hole and die, and if all they want to do is blame other people for their problems —
— then that’s what they’ll get. A loser’s life full of boo-hooing about the nice things other people have, when the reality is they were too lazy to actually put the work in and create something for themselves instead of wishing it would be handed to them on a silver platter.
January 15th, 2015 at 12:21 pm
M Simon (aka alpha female drone)
You are eclipsed. I have children.
Make sure you never face reality completely. Ignorance is bliss….
January 15th, 2015 at 12:28 pm
@Glenn – I share your No Fucks Given attitude and appreciate it. That’s how I get away with a lot of stuff. It’s a good and liberating approach to life. If you can do that and are effective and involved in life, not a MGTOW, I think that approaches the idea of being Sigma.
I do disagree on the ballbusting thing. While there is hazing / initiation, I think it’s a threshold test for group membership, not really to show alpha-ness. If you decide to be butthurt, you’re voting yourself out of the group. I think it really is only significant as a shit test or hierarchy establishing activity in a less established, less close group.
The day to day, constant and ongoing ballbusting with close friends? I don’t think that’s a shit test, rather it’s more of an “I’m okay, you’re okay” sort of exchange. With the handful of friends I am closest with – some real hardheaded bastards who are very close friends, we bring the vamilies on vacation, do endurance sports and have done a SHTF plan together – we go through a lot of periods of major ballbusting, and then a lot of periods of no ballbusting whatsoever. For the most part, there is an extremely high level of courtesy and delicacy in how we deal with each other on the serious issues, a great deal of lattitude given to personal choices and a tremendous reluctance to level earnest criticism or to mistreat each other unless it’s truly warranted. An off-response to the usual ballbusting will draw a concerned inquiry about whether everything is alright rather than the usual group pecking order response of doubling down on the grief-giving. This makes me think that the usual ball busting within friends is just a status check and joking around for the fun of it, than an effort to establish a hierarchy or pass tests. We’re all pretty old school, in our 40s, and maybe we follow an older model of how to relate to each other. Your mileage may vary.
Which the irony here is that I’m happy to share confidences with my friends, and to let them know what I think about things, with a candor I’d never share with my wife. The Victorians / Edwardians had the right idea. You may love your wife, but you can share your thoughts with your friends over a drink and a smoke.I think this is why feminists have a visceral hatred of male spaces. Male intimacy undermines their hegemony over social relationships.
January 15th, 2015 at 12:31 pm
@Glenn
Glad I could help. So much of a Man’s focus is on becoming responsible and becoming a leader that sometimes it’s easy to forget part of being a good leader is being fair. Particularly with yourself.
January 15th, 2015 at 12:33 pm
@ Softek – Great comment. In fact, you are exactly right. The SMV is always running and it forgives nothing, and doesn’t really care if you put a ring on it.
I’m getting quite interested in pre-agriculture neo-lithic humans who seemed to be quite socially stable with poly amorous societies in which seuxuality was more free. I look at the Etruscan society (post agricultural) with similar relish. Sexuality was not shamed there, and in fact it was reveled in.
But guys, in that model, she’s never “your’s”. And you are never her’s. I’m great with that but i sense many men would not be. Also been reading on Goddess Culture, very interesting. In way, they are much more honest because at least they start with an honest presentation of the imbalance of sexual selection power that women enjoy.
I mean, are only worried about how many cocks she rode before you if you are stuck beta provisioning her forever and she “owes” you sex, right?
January 15th, 2015 at 12:44 pm
@ Joe Blow – Hmmm, so you think that male ball busting isn’t also about establishing hierarchy – not just friendly banter? I couldn’t disagree more. And when I think about it, the only time I get in someone’s face about ball busting is when they are trying to establish dominance over me in a social circle. When it’s friendly ball busting, I go on just like you do and enjoy it. But to me, there is a difference and if you want me to submit to your dominance, you better damn well have earned it with me. I’m not some stupid twat who’s impressed with your show of aggression or your muscles – and I will escalate and return greater fire until you submit if you haven’t earned it with me.
Now, I do grant dominance to some people. My older brother has earned a dominant role with me. Some friends and of course in work contexts and other roles I play in formal institutions where I formally acquiesce to be led by others. But some guy who’s busting my balls who doesn’t know me? He may be in for a fight. I’m also usually socially intelligent and am confident enough to not overtly establish dominance in many situations and am content to “passenger” in those settings so I’m not running around in a conflict for dominance all the time. In fact, it’s much better to establish dominance subtly, let it come to you versus chasing it, just like women.
You see the difference, yes?
January 15th, 2015 at 12:47 pm
For the record, I’m going to be working with some guy’s wife, hopefully taking her on as one of my clients.
I have a lot of respect for this guy and I would never think of messing that up. Kind of like my best friend’s girlfriend, who is super hot and I’d love to fuck, but a lot of times he’s literally been the only person there for me. I want to be a scumbag to a degree but not a sociopath who’ll stab my friends in the back.
I can’t deny I’m sexually attracted to both of them. These “rules” are always at play. What’s funny is that the daughter of this lady apparently knew one of my other ‘friends,’ i.e. a girl I was Gaming that has a boyfriend. I should’ve threatened to share all the dirty conversations we had — send them to her boyfriend. She blocked me after that girl told her God knows what about what happened with this dude’s wife, but the funniest part is she’s guilty of the same thing she was, only difference is her and her boyfriend are getting engaged eventually and aren’t married.
The guy was a total pussy, complete blue pill mangina, so I took that as my green light to game that girl. And I did. If this didn’t happen and she didn’t end up blocking me I probably could’ve talked to her into visiting me and fucking me, which was getting very close to happening.
So that’s a shame. She was a real hottie, and she was really into me. But the hamster is strong. Big Bad Softek stealing other guy’s girls — how shameless. Although funny she has enough of a problem with me doing that with another girl to block me, while sending me dirty messages behind the scenes, and also making fun of her boyfriend to me in secret, while she’s talking to him at the same time…..she even said how he asked what she was talking to me about so much, and wouldn’t tell him, and said she just laughed….
Yep. It’s a beautiful thing.
“The Hamster is strong with these ones.” Been a freaking Hamster extravaganza over here, and it’s crazy how close the race is getting between the Beta Man hamster and the female hamster. My personal hope is they all get so riled up and run so hard that their hamsters all go into cardiac arrest. Keep it up, keep doing that to yourself, if that’s what you really want. Heh.
January 15th, 2015 at 12:50 pm
Sexual conflict explains everything sexually selected. For primates all male-specific behaviors (e.g. infanticide, rape) and all female-specific behaviors (teasing, “let’s you and him fight”) are too obviously in opposition, and all non-sex-specific behaviors are simply not sex-selected.
Stumpf et al. 2011. Sexual conflict in primates. Evolutionary Anthropology, 20(2), 62–75.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/evan.20297/full
The (female) authors argue that “the slow adoption of sexual conflict in traditional sexual selection theory may be due to the many unresolved discrepancies”, instead of the more obvious “we don’t like it because the implications are ugly”.
January 15th, 2015 at 12:53 pm
@Softek
Re: your married chick situation. If I had to be honest, while I’m certainly not above mate poaching (when >5% of the women in a population are HB6+, you’re gonna have to poach any remotely cute chick) I won’t be bothering with married poon again in the future. Obviously not for any moral reasons, and not because of fear. The guy that threatened me lived a mile and a half away and knows where my house is. The fact that I still haven’t moved should tell you I don’t scare easily at all.
It’s simply that it’s all annoying to deal with. Even if you maintain alpha frame the whole time (which I did), even if you know you intimidate the guy in every way, even if getting laid by her is stupidly easy, it’s just annoying. To me personally it’s not worth it. I had the experience of doing it, learned a lot, got a lot of laughs and some decent sex out of it (and she still shows up from time to time wanting to fuck, but I’m losing interest in her as her age starts to show), but It’s just annoying dealing with people that don’t get one simple logical truth: the two married people agreed to a contract that I did not.
It is not my responsibility to uphold their contract. When they bitch at me and blame me for it, what I hear is somebody screaming “BUT YOU AGREED TO THEIR MARRIAGE CONTRACT TOO!” That makes no logical sense, and I try to minimize my contact/interaction with the kind of morons that don’t understand it doesn’t. Getting involved with married poon almost guarantees I’m going to be dealing with that.
Were I younger, I probably would enjoy just being an asshole to be an asshole to those kind of people. I admit to a small amount of that now, but more I’d just rather surround myself with people I enjoy. Those people aren’t it. Those are pathetic victims as you yourself have observed. So for me avoiding married poon isn’t about morality or fear, but about staying away from the victim mentality and all the toxic thinking that it brings.
January 15th, 2015 at 12:59 pm
Sexual conflict explains everything sexually selected. For humans all male-specific behaviors (e.g. Game) and all female-specific behaviors (hidden ovulation) are too obviously in opposition, and all non-sex-specific behaviors are simply not sex-selected.
Mulder, M. and Rauch, K. 2009. Sexual conflict in humans: variations
and solutions. Evolutionary Anthropology, 18, 201–214.
http://anthropology.ucdavis.edu/people/fzborger/profile_and_papers/bm-rauch_2009.pdf
The (female) authors argue that if there is conflict it is because females ought to win. Or something.
January 15th, 2015 at 1:05 pm
@ jf12 – The sexual conflict stuff is fascinating, and seems spot on, thanks for finding it and sharing it with us. Real shocker that female authors find anything that doesn’t aggrandize their interests shocking. But that must be a socially constructed thing (even though it happens across cultures)…
January 15th, 2015 at 1:12 pm
@ Glenn
That’s what I was talking with her about. Almost everything we exchanged messages about was about her marriage. I said a whole lot about my thoughts: that sexuality should be free, if I was in a marriage and it really was that bad, I’d rather let myself have sex with other guys, and let myself have sex with other women, than to keep a passionless marriage going. And I said I didn’t know how he was okay with this, like it’s so important for a woman to want you — how could he be okay with knowing she wasn’t even into him anymore, and just having ‘duty sex’?
We were just talking about stuff like that for the most part. She kept coming onto me and I said I didn’t want to get involved with a married woman, and she goes, “Well what about an unhappily married woman?” and sends a little winking emoticon.
I just told her that I didn’t think marriage means you “own” someone, and that her husband telling us not to message was BS — she’s a full grown woman, she can make her own decisions. She said herself “we didn’t even do anything wrong.”
But I think she has a few screws loose because her husband told me she told him I said inappropriate things to her, and her daughter goes “I know everything you told her” — since I deleted the messages I just told her to fuck off and to hold her mom responsible for coming onto me first, etc., since I didn’t have any proof otherwise.
But it’s not like I was planting ideas in her head. She even said herself, “How do you know all of this?” She was amazed that I’ve never been married but understood so much about relationships and understood why she was so unhappy. I will never say anything about TRP. That’s my little secret I’ve been using for my self-improvement and I don’t share it with anyone. Haven’t found anyone yet that I think could handle it, let alone appreciate it and put it to good use. When people find this online by their own terms — “ask and you shall receive.”
Warning: don’t be judgmental about the screaming. I hated it at first too and thought it was retarded. But check out the lyrics. Perfect.
To me, this song is dedicated to all the Hamsters, female and male alike, that’re out there running themselves to death:
“You want to blame me for the way you hate yourself
You think you can find who you are in someone else
Criticize to better your relative positioning
You’ve got a long way to go
So go and weave your tale of woe
Convincing yourself it’s so
You’re so set to fail
Somewhere you finally lost your way
Only yourself left to betray
A nameless heir apparent, paranoid despair
You take great measure to appear like you don’t care
Precision and persuasion must precede the proper lie
You’ve lost it before you began
So go and weave your tale of woe
Convincing yourself it’s so
You’re so set to fail
Somewhere you finally lost your way
Only yourself left to betray”
January 15th, 2015 at 1:13 pm
@Glenn
Interesting way of looking at male interaction. What I’m seeing in your assessment is the ability to distinguish between Posture Talk and Power Talk within social circles.
http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/
Typical male ball-busting among friends would be a light-hearted version of Posture Talk. Almost a parody of it intended to make everyone involved laugh. What pisses you off is when somebody attempts to engage in actual Power Talk and assert social dominance, and it can take a degree of social intelligence to even recognize it’s happening.
I personally tend to subscribe to the belief that even the most innocuous interactions involving subtle attempts to manipulate. If you’re not the one manipulating, the other person (consciously or subconsciously) is attempting to manipulate you. Granted, all of this is a result of my own recent developing a far greater amount of Machiavellian tendencies as a means to my own ends, but it seems true to me so far.
I see normal male ball busting among friends as subtle, subconscious reinforcement of the established pecking order. It’s not hostile and generally is funny. So I agree that it’s not trying to establish social hierarchy, but it’s an extremely subtle (but generally friendly) reinforcement of it. I would however completely agree that when the overt displays of a power play come out, the general reaction by guys that “get it” is open hostility and escalation.
January 15th, 2015 at 1:13 pm
Male authors are considerably less squeamish. “The evolutionary interests of human males and females are certainly asymmetrical, so there is no reason to doubt that sexual conflict occurred throughout our evolutionary history.”
Shackelford et al. 2012. Sexual Conflict in Humans. In: The Oxford Handbook of Sexual Conflict in Humans. T. Shackelford and A. Goetz, eds. Oxford University Press.
http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780195396706.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780195396706-e-1
January 15th, 2015 at 1:14 pm
Jeremy
“January 14th, 2015 at 6:25 pm
@Not Born This Morning
ALPHA FUCKS = Bad Boy = Sexual Pet
BETA BUCKS = Good Dad = Good Provider
BOTH of these male characterizations are feminine primary.
I’m not sure what you mean by feminine primary.”
Thank you for your comment. I suspected some would not comprehend what I ment by classifying both AF and BB as female primary. This realization and truth requires clarification for those who are not aware.
All traits, characteristics and behaviors of both AF and BB are defined by what women desire innately or otherwise. This is what I mean by “female primary”. Both characterizations originate and are defined by feminine expectations. I realized this when I first started reading this site and the book. Both characterizations are expected or preceived to be expected by females (and I agree both are depicting reality). However, each together or separately are presented as a prescribed methodology or mandated set of requirements for man to relate to woman sexually or otherwise. AF and BB are each essentially a set of her instructions to him, implicit or overt. “Here is what you have to be to get a peice of my ass” According to this paradigm the male must perform one or both characteristic sets to experience her sexual intimacy on some level….”the burden of performance”. Yet “Nothing is more attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his value, and the person with the most power in any relationship is the one who needs the other the least” (these statements are 100% correct). So with that truth, this AFBB paradigm is an ambiguous paradox because if the male must be self confident, independent and self sufficient to attract her then he must be free of AF, BB or any other mandate. If he is worried about how to be AF or BB or both, then he is acquiescing to her and attempting to follow one or both of her scripts. He is attempting to fit into her frame. He is subjugating himself to her by attempting to mold his personality and thought life to meet her requirements. All women desire a strong self sufficient independent man. No man who is really independent and self respecting will worry himself with how he is measuring up to AF or BB or any other such character role.
January 15th, 2015 at 1:17 pm
@ Sun Wukong
How’s that for a flip in musical taste compared to what I shared just above? LOL. What can I say, I’m an interesting guy.
But yeah, I’m with you on that. It ain’t worth it. As soon as that guy sent me that message I said “ok, I’m done”. Then it turned into a fiasco where I thought I blocked her, but I apparently didn’t confirm the block, so she was still on my friends list. And then she tried to keep contacting me and that’s when the guy’s daughter found she was still friends with me. And I told her I blocked her, which I thought I did, then she started slinging all this shit at me about “oh sure,” and “you should’ve stopped talking to her when my dad messaged you,” which I did, but she didn’t believe me.
Go to 1:15
“I used to say a married woman was the sweetest woman ever born
But I’ve changed that thing, you better let married women alone
Take my advice, let these married women be
‘Cause their husband’ll grab you and beat you ragged as a cedar tree
When a woman says she loves you, ’bout good as she do herself
I don’t pay her no attention, tell that same lie to somebody else”
Blind Willie McTell and the rest of the blues guys knew what was up back in the ’30s.
January 15th, 2015 at 1:18 pm
Maybe this’ll explain it better:
January 15th, 2015 at 1:27 pm
@Rollo
… that is an absolutely sublime description of the situation. It even explains why emotional investment is such an incredibly risky proposition for women. It’s why men can afford to have idealistic views of love but women simply can’t, and why men are polygynous but women are hypergamous.
January 15th, 2015 at 1:53 pm
@ Not Born This Morning – No, all you’ve demonstrated is reductio ad absurdum and semantic masturbation. Top it off with noticing that it’s a ‘distinction without a difference’ and yeah, that’s about it…