The Reconstruction I

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One of the most common misperceptions for guys coming into a Red Pill awareness experience is an expectation of being able to use that awareness and Game to reconstruct an old relationship. Most often this hope is about a guy wanting to ‘fix’ his broken relationship with a girl who dumped him. This is easily the most common reason Blue Pill guys make themselves open to what the Red Pill has to reveal to him. They are desperate, not for the intergender truths that the Red Pill presents, but rather for a solution to their hearts being crushed by a girl.

This is understandable when you consider that these men are still very steeped in Blue Pill idealism they’ve yet to unlearn (or understand why they need to unlearn it) and haven’t made the connection that their idealism is part of the reason why they likely were dumped. All they feel is a desperate longing to reconnect to a girl who was their ‘One’, and only now they are desperate enough to seek answers from the Red Pill.

It’s funny how some of the most ardent Red Pill deniers will be open to listening to its truths about men and women if it presents the possibility of them getting back with a former lover they invested themselves in. This is a good illustration of the degree of control Blue Pill idealism has over guys; that they would be open to amending their beliefs if it means reconnecting to those feelings he’s been cut away from.

Unfortunately, the Red Pill is not a salve for Blue Pill disillusionment. It’s a cure, not a bandaid. I tried to succinctly address this in the 7th Iron Rule of Tomassi:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #7
It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was.

Another Red Pill reconstruction attempt is men who make it their goal to ‘re-seduce’ a woman they failed to effectively Game while still wrapped up in their Blue Pill mindset. The first presumption is that revenge might motivate a guy to want to pump and dump a girl who once blew him out back when he was locked into his Blue Pill mentality. Women like this idea because they think it confirms men’s egos being easily bruised, but I don’t think this is always the case.

It’s entirely possible that some past coquette has taken an organic liking to “the new him” now that his Red Pill transition and better grasp of Game has made him attractive to her. I’ve had several guys relate to me about how they have turned a former ONEitis into a plate they were spinning along with others. The experience of doing so will often solidify Red Pill/Game principles for him – the act of cycling an old ‘soul mate’ into a guy’s roster of non-exclusive lovers is a lesson in taking women of a formerly idealistic pedestal and helps humanize women for him in the process.

I should also add that there’s usually a period of time necessary to effect this. Too many men will see Red Pill awareness and just the loosest form of Game as some magic formula for pulling this off too soon. A sudden incongruent shift in his demeanor only puts her off more and leaves him discouraged.

Doing Everything Right

The third type of reconstructionist is the married man  – or the guy in a multi-year LTR – seeking to find the secret to remedy his dead bedroom. There was a time (pre-internet, pre-Red Pill) when these men were reluctant to even voice the problem they were having with their sexually indifferent wives. Generally, this was due to a couple of specific fears.

The first is that most Blue Pill men are conditioned from a very early age to always find fault in themselves before they would ever imply that it would be a woman’s. This was especially true if it was about sex. If you can’t satisfy a woman, it’s your fault. If a woman isn’t aroused or attracted by you, it’s your fault, so the presumption used to be that a man could only better himself as a means to reestablish an attraction that (presumably) he had with his wife before they were married.

Back in the day this ‘improvement’ could be defined in various old books ways. He might get a promotion at work, a shift up in status and pay. He might lose weight or find some form of competition he might possibly do well in. He might change his beliefs or accede to better identifying with his wife, or do more chores around the home, help with the kids, arrange more ‘date nights’. He might go to marriage counseling or participate in his church’s “men’s spiritual retreats” in order to show that he’s growing.

All of these ways of “rekindling the old flame” are essentially a man’s effort in acquiescing to his woman’s Frame while keeping him in a perpetual state of negotiating for her genuine desire. From a Red Pill perspective we understand this, but there was a time, not so long ago, when men’s preoccupation was all about doing everything right in order to get his wife to fuck him like she used to, or with something resembling genuine enthusiasm.

The second fear men of that time had was admitting to their inability to satisfy their wife (LTR) sexually. Again, this was all about a female-dominant Frame, and his qualifying for her pleasure, but we’re talking about a time when men’s interpretation of their own masculinity was always being questioned. It’s interesting to see how times have changed with communication technology. I can remember a time when it would’ve been taboo to be too direct about sex in church. Now it’s unavoidable and we have pastors encouraging sex quota months in order to spur the asexual wives in the congregation.

In a Blue Pill social order, men learn to always qualify for women. So the natural, male-deductive response has always been to do everything right in order to keep the sex faucet flowing. Sacrifice dreams, belay ambitions, get the right job with the right status and become a person who a woman would want to bang. These are all old book presumptions based on the Beta Female-Identifying Provider archetype, but it’s important to keep this in mind today because this same do everything right presumption still persists for men today.

The following is a post from the Married Red Pill Reddit I saved about four months ago.

Story time….

I originally posted most of this in a reply over at ASKMRP but I thought I’d share here too.

You can read my post history to get all the gory details but I moved out a few months ago in exasperation after following my MRP path to a T and seeing little to no improvement in our relationship. I’ve “fixed” myself in ways I never thought I could and moving out was me punting the final decision for a bit before I blow my beautiful children’s life to pieces.

Things are calm, peaceful, friendly and kinda fun at “home” but the sexual dynamic hasn’t changed at all despite all odds. I’ve finally reached the point that I give 0 fucks either way and every day that goes by makes me a bit more ambivalent to the whole deal.

It’s taken a long time to get here but something happened last week that opened my eyes to how shitty my life has been for a looooong time and how at this point she is the only “problem” left in my life and I can’t “fix” her.

The quick back story is that I was a fat, beta fuck for a long time and have been on this journey for about 2 years. I am fairly ripped now and have “fixed” myself to the point that I feel comfortable saying I’m a top 5-10% guy in my metro. Good looking, successful business(Doubled my sales in the last 12mos! Thanks MRP!), dress well…etc.

Last week I initiated with the wife while I was over at our house helping get the kids to bed. She shot me down like she has been for months. We still fuck here and there but the quality has been shitty for a while despite implementing as much SGM as I can.

I laughed, told her goodnight and went back to my house. I actually prefer being there now. I’ve come to love the solitude too as the loneliness and missing the kids has worn off a little.

I worked out and read for a while and got bored so I decided to download Bumble and Tinder to get a no risk gauge of where I’m at if I end up nexting her. I’ve been getting plenty of IOI’s in public but I live in a small town so pursuing them would eventually lead to big problems. I also downloaded a GPS location faker and put myself in a state far, far away to make sure I don’t get doxxed by one of her shitty, single friends…

Gentlemen…It’s been 4 days and I currently have over 60 unsolicited messages from all kinds of women. My inbox is full of unsolicited tittie and pussy shots from women waayyy hotter than my wife. I’ve got 5 women literally begging me to come fuck them and another 5 or so I’m confident I could fuck within a week if I wanted.

It’s a good thing I put myself so far away or the temptation would probably be way too much to handle. I deleted the apps this morning as I’m not ready to blow everything up yet and I want to give the marriage every last chance for my kids sake. I know myself well enough to know that once I taste some strange there will no turning back. The constant buzzing of the burner phone was also killing my productivity.

The end result is that this whole experiment has killed off any last shred of oneitis I had and opened my eyes to what my life will look like going forward if this goes the way it’s heading. My wife is a good woman and is fairly hot but it appears that she may not be able to see past all those years of beta shittiness from me and that’s ok.

I didn’t tell you my story to brag but to re-affirm that only you can change and determine the quality of your life. I can tell you that 2 years ago I was a mess trying to hang on to the shreds of my marriage while my wife was pretty much repulsed by me. My wife will or will not change into the sexy woman I want over the next few months but now I really don’t care because I have PAINFULLY built myself into a man that the world will treat very well either way.

Salvation lies within, motherfuckers! Get to work, be consistent, and reap the rewards!

Today the hope for bettering a man’s sexual prospects in marriage is found primarily in Red Pill awareness. I would daresay that the Red Pill, Game and the manosphere have done more in improving men’s sexual access in marriage than contemporary marriage counseling for about 10 years now. That’s to be lauded I think, but it also has to come with the understanding that no man’s experience, no man’s situation with his wife/woman, is ever the same, nor is it ideal.

There is a set of Red Pill men (usually married) who also attempt to do everything right – according to Red Pill awareness and applied Game – and, as per this man’s story, the situation is such that it is still ‘not enough’.

These men become Red Pill aware, they unplug, they struggle to accept it while disenfranchising themselves from their Blue Pill conditioning. They put in the time for insight and soul-searching, they deal with the uncomfortable truths of what they’ve been all their lives. They deal with the anger that inspires and they come out on the other side and begin to remake themselves. They self-improve.

Roosh recently had some Dali Lama moment about how he believes self-improvement is some Zen preset channel for men, and they ought not worry about bettering themselves. I say bullshit. Self-improvement itself is a state of being. Once a man applies himself, invests more in himself than he ever has before, changes his mind about himself, he becomes hisown mental point of origin.

These men begin to see the results of their efforts, efforts often unbeknownst to his woman. She may witness the outward changes, but only he know the experience of his inward changes. Now he’s got to deal with new experiences that were previously foreign to him in his old, Blue Pill self-identity. Some are uncomfortable and require him to use judgement he’s never had to before. Others are temptations or opportunities he’s never had access to before.

All of what’s led to this transition required a lot of personal investment on his part, and by his Red Pill awareness he’s done everything right. This transformative experience becomes a kind of Relational Equity for him; equity he believes his wife, his ex, the old high school girl who ignored him, should have some appreciation for. Just like the old books men who believed that building themselves up in their careers or getting more in touch with their feminine sides would be the key to doing everything right, the Red Pill aware guy finds that it’s not him, it’s her.

This is part one of this series.

522 comments

  1. A surgeon once called upon a poor cripple and kindly offered to render him any assistance in his power. The surgeon began to discourse very learnedly upon the nature and origin of disease; of the curative properties of certain medicines; of the advantages of exercise, air and light, and of the various ways in which health and strength could be restored. These remarks ware so full of good sense, and discovered so much profound thought and accurate knowledge, that the cripple, becoming thoroughly alarmed, cried out, “Do not, I pray you, take away my crutches. They are my only support, and without them I should be miserable indeed!” “I am not going,” said the surgeon, “to take away your crutches. I am going to cure you, and then you will throw the crutches away yourself.”

    -Robert G. Ingersoll

  2. Absolutely love this post.

    I myself became red pilled “a little too late” after marriage.

    No matter how much I have improved objectively ( status / confidence / game technique ) at the end of the day she still sees the beta.

    Flipping the script in the long term may not be an attainable goal. Dread works, to some extent, to let her know not to fuck with you too much, but I feel it’s created a bit of a cognitive dissonance in her. She sees one person that doesn’t agree with her preconceived notion of you, and this messes her up even more.

  3. wanting to ‘fix’ his broken relationship with a girl who dumped him

    Or who is sexlessly married to him.

  4. I have an On Topic comment. (Mark the calendar.)

    I had a discussion with Mrs. Gamer last night that I would only accept sex if she wanted me and that if she didn’t that she needed to let me go…I put it that I might not be hot enough for her. Mrs. Gamer has been a lot more compliant since then. She also liked it that other women have been flirting with me and that I have not been allowing them to make physical passes at me. She was a bit lit up when we talked about it.

    Of course, this is more Dread and I am also giving her plausible deniability to not feel bad about it since I’m putting it like it’s my fault, which, in some sense, it is. For too long I’ve let her shit storms affect my conduct, but I will allow that no longer.

  5. Dave, if you’re trying to reset the attraction in your wife, you will have to become a Stranger to her…that is the only way that a reset occurs…lots of Dread is required.

  6. “These men become Red Pill aware, they unplug, they struggle to accept it while disenfranchising themselves from their Blue Pill conditioning. They put in the time for insight and soul-searching, they deal with the uncomfortable truths of what they’ve been all their lives. They deal with the anger that inspires and they come out on the other side and begin to remake themselves. They self-improve.”
    https://disruptingdinnerparties.com/2014/04/08/take-the-red-pill-the-truth-behind-the-biology-of-sex/
    “Others are temptations or opportunities he’s never had access to before.

    All of what’s led to this transition required a lot of personal investment on his part, and by his Red Pill awareness he’s done everything right. This transformative experience becomes a kind of Relational Equity for him; equity he believes his wife, his ex, the old high school girl who ignored him, should have some appreciation for. Just like the old books men who believed that building themselves up in their careers or getting more in touch with their feminine sides would be the key to doing everything right, the Red Pill aware guy finds that it’s not him, it’s her.”

  7. “I have PAINFULLY built myself into a man that the world will treat very well either way.
    Salvation lies within, motherfuckers! Get to work, be consistent, and reap the rewards!”

  8. ” She sees one person that doesn’t agree with her preconceived notion of you, and this messes her up even more.

    @ Dave
    This alludes to what Rollo has said many times before about not revealing too much to women. Women love to think they have intuitively figured a guy out. They don’t want the whole story right away.
    So you or anybody else who’s changed or improved themselves, it is hard for her to see anything else but what you used to be. Because when she’s determined that she’s figured you out, one of the last things she wants to do is to admit that she’s wrong about something. So all your improvements aren’t real to her. They are you fronting and she’s waiting, and maybe even trying to cause, you to slip up.
    So she can go “aha, you see I was right”
    The guy from the MRP post, his wife or maybe ex by now, will still probably tell herself that he hasn’t really changed long after he’s left the marriage.

  9. Well, well.

    Apparently, unplugging is a process, rather than event. The rejection speaks loudly for itself, and a man is still talking about the wife as “a good woman who is hot and cant see past the beta shittines…”

    That said, maybe this guy is not coming clean. Most guys in the manosphere are dox averse. I smell a rat. This guy is slaying pussy left right centre and floating a palatable cover-up story just in case.

    If it is true that if a woman makes you wait for sex, the sex is never that great anyway (sex not worth the wait), then it is better for that guy if he moved on to better things already.

  10. On that note I have some 400 lbs of iron waiting to test me in the gym…..
    PS, this ain’t for the wife, it’s for me just wanting to be a better person. OMG, crisis of motive!!! ahhhhhhh!!!!!
    Go lift mother fuckers.

  11. It’s not about attraction, it’s about power. Once she’s had power over you, there a 99.9% likelihood that she’s never giving it up, regardless of your self-improvement or changed attitude. I saw it in my marriage, and the only solution was to leave her, regardless of the cost. Now I’m happier than ever before, and still kick myself for not leaving sooner.

  12. Indeed, our Red Pill path has many trap doors built into it. I can see myself doing cartwheels over re-seducing the HB9, and how OneItis creeps in through that little mindgame. That’s okay, I can deal with it and let it go, but at some level, yes, I get how I use the Red Pill to still justify myself. It’s beyond just sexual value, it’s an existential thing with women sometimes.

    Just spent 3 days with the HB9 (i was doing some work for 2 of them) but it’s the first time I’ve spent that much time with a woman since my last actual girlfriend, in 2008, other than sisters etc. I have to be so mindful in her case as her SMV is so high that it triggers a Blue Pill Beta striving and need for approval in me that is pathetic, lol. I nipped it in the bud early for the most part but I have to say that it was fascinating to see how I wanted to subjugate myself.

    I also found her loathesome in some ways, lol. The entire experience was like Red Pill fieldwork, and I learned a lot. As with pickup, the experience is far more powerful than thinking or reading or analyzing. I also think that this may be part of what the @OMGs have been getting at, that long term, marriage game is a nonstop, multi-dimensional game that has its own intensities and characteristics. That’s why they feel so strongly about game, as they are testing it in a non-stop tumbler of female chaos and yes, power. Being with the HB9 is also instructive sexually. She’s the hottest post-Red Pill woman I’ve been with, and one of the hottest ever for me (not the hottest though, he he). Sexual energy is almost always present with her and that’s power for her. Again, I’m dealing with it fine, but it’s like trying to handle uranium isotopes safely or something.

    Not going to see her again for 2 weeks. Focused on other things. Work and my business, for example…Eating well and the old man exercise program I started – perfect for me. Whole body workout focused on big muscles and joint flexibility etc. Home based, no more gym for me. Feels like a good step, doing it at home – zero excuses. I may return to the gym but I can go for the next 3-4 months without having to buy any serious equipment so I’ll figure that out then.

    Last – but it’s a big last…

    At some basic level, I’m addicted to seeing myself as “less than”, to striving, to having to apologize or something. This likely has something to do with my childhood and my psychology, but I keep finding it so Blue Pill. I really think that the Blue Pill makes a man see himself as innately flawed or broken. Think about it in our entertainment. The flawed hero, the anti-hero, the ruthless leader, the lovable buffoon Dad, the charming cad who won’t settle down – we are constantly shown men who “have work to do”.

    I also think this means I have to be careful about how I internalize self-improvement. I can easily use the Red Pill as the new brickbat with which to beat myself. This can be just another thing I have to do “in order to” or to “become”. This is an existential cul de sac that I think traps some Red Pill men. Rollo alludes to a married man version of it above, but I think that the egoic pitfalls are universal. I have 50 years of uninterrupted social conditioning and identification with certain ideas about women and who I am. To think I can just “unplug” as though this is a movie or something is a mistake. You have to recondition your mind. This requires both learning, analysis, a synthesis of mind and POV, and then experiences to just begin this work. Meanwhile, the entire social order is still working against you. You will be a fish swimming upstream.

    But in the end, the entire basis of Game is to see things strategically. To be results oriented. And once you’ve seen under the hood of the social conditioning, well, there is no going back. But going forward doesn’t seem to occur in a straight line either. This onion has a lot of layers.

  13. @scribblerg
    I have 50 years of uninterrupted social conditioning and identification with certain ideas about women and who I am. To think I can just “unplug” as though this is a movie or something is a mistake. You have to recondition your mind. This requires both learning, analysis, a synthesis of mind and POV, and then experiences to just begin this work. Meanwhile, the entire social order is still working against you.

    This is so true. The unplug-event ‘clicked’ for me when I discovered TRM, but the process continues. Lots of re-reading and thinking is a must for older brains embedded with grooves and ruts. Lots of resurfacing to be done.

    and the old man exercise program I started – perfect for me. Whole body workout focused on big muscles and joint flexibility etc
    Squat rack and bench in the basement. Lift heavy but take care of that old frame.

  14. I could have written that reddit post. I thought for a long time I could save my marriage, but I’ve left that thought behind. I, too, am only staying around my house for the kid’s sake, but I have moved all my money into my own account that only I control and am looking into getting an apartment close to work. Sucks though, man! I’m the life of the party at home, so if daddy leaves, every ounce of fun will disappear from every single day of the week for my kids.

    But Rollo is correct. Once a wife/girlfriend sees beta, even in a bad-ass dude, she can’t unsee it, just like we can’t unsee the red pill.

    On a related note about reconstruction, I highly suggest everyone who hasn’t read it to read the pdf “Sex God Method” (Google that shit) A lot of guys’ problems are a faulty perception of what makes a good lover. So many dudes (like myself) try to be the bedroom technician/gynecologist thinking that this angle, or this position, or this pace, or this technique (do the alphabet with your tongue), or this lotion, etc will make you a bedroom stud, but the whole while I should have been focusing on the psychological aspects of a women’s arousal. The book was an eye-opener. Christian McQueen also touched on this with his recent post about “how to pipe a girl out” https://realchristianmcqueen.com/2016/12/20/how-to-pipe-a-girl-out/ If you watch that video (NSFW), you will surely see if you are being all you can be under the sheets. Compare that to some other porn vids we’ve all seen in the past. Some dudes are expressionless mutes just going through the motions as if they were at a desk job unenthusiastically fondling sheets of paper.

    I think I mentioned it before, but I tried some of this on the wife a bit ago and at one point told her to look in my eyes when she was coming. She jumped out of her trance before she came and with a bewildered look said, “What for?” Translation: Why ruin a perfectly good orgasm by looking into the eyes of a (former) beta! Let that sink it, fellas! Till beta do us part.

  15. @Ergo – You are surely on to something wrt it being about power. One of the reasons feminism and the idea of women being oppressed is the amount of actual power women yield in the real world. They “choose” sexually (for the most part), they control 80% of household spending, and they favor each other in hiring and buying and just about everything else.

    In fact, one can say the modern, “strong, independent woman™” is drunk with power. To steal a line from Rollo, they are children with dynamite. Think that’s hyperbolic? Consider the nonsexual aspects. Only since women’s control of household spending began to grow did we see the growth of consumer debt, and the effects of mass consumerism on our culture. This is a wholly female driven phenomenon. I mean, who do you think is buying all that plastic junk at Walmart, men? Or look at the phenomenon of govt debt, women poll very poorly with respect to understanding the actual debt we are in or how policies they support contribute to it. Put another way, does anyone here believe that if only men had the vote that we’d be 20 trillion in debt?

    Women’s sense of importance is aggrandized nonstop in society. They are egged on, cheered, lionized, worshipped, and elevated socially by every aspect of our social order. And don’t be confused, women are both superior and in need of special privileges. They are also victims of our oppression while being our betters. It’s such an amazing amalgam of inconsistent thoughts and incoherency that it amazes us how they don’t see it. But none of that matters – cuz it’s ultimately all about power.

    Hmmm, does anyone else here see the nexus between this POV and politics? The modern Left is all about power. Marxism is all about power, in every sense of the word. “Whatever it takes” is a slogan of the left. They fight for keeps. That’s why the New Left began it’s “Long March” throughout the institutions of the West 60 years ago. They knew that’s the only way they could grasp power and really ‘change’ things. It’s not coincidental that so many women are power drunk and hysterically disconnected from reality. There is a fertile underpinning for this brought on by politics.

  16. Funny you call bullshit on Roosh claiming that men do not need ‘self improvement’ because I did the same thing. I get what he’s saying to some extent, but the advice he was giving there is only for men who have already come full circle and have managed to fight through the pain and suffering that occurs when you face down all the lies and bullshit we’ve been taught from the moment we’re old enough to talk. Being at peace with life and who you are is not the same as giving up. In fact, inner peace allows a man to accomplish things once thought impossible. Roosh may have gleaned some wisdom from his life experiences and found some truth and inner peace, but no man can jump from A to Z like that.

  17. @newlyaloof

    I, too, am only staying around my house for the kid’s sake
    That’s a calculation each man has to make. At what kid’s age range can you leave with harming their development the least? At what your own age can you leave and still have a chance of scoring young pussy?

    On a related note about reconstruction, I highly suggest everyone who hasn’t read it to read the pdf “Sex God Method”
    Omg, hard sex and deep eye contact. Hooks them every time

  18. Why don’t you talk about something that really matters like this election. The real red pill is realizing weve been conned about who is running the government and what devious plans they have for us. Having been in music, you should have seen some of this.

  19. I think Ergo is right as well.

    The issue is that once you go beta in a marriage, the woman gets the power in the marriage. She may like this, she may not like it (most of them don’t like it in the long run, even if they do in the short run), but once it happens it’s exceptionally hard to turn it back the other way. The reason isn’t that she wants the power herself (some do, but many don’t), but that she doesn’t respect you enough to cede power to you — you are too beta for her to submit to your power, so she’s afraid to give you the power. She will therefore keep the power, even if it doesn’t feel good for her to have the power, because she trusts herself with it more than beta you, who is not worthy of her respect.

    So the key to get out of that rut is regaining her respect, which means de-beta-izing yourself in *her* eyes. That’s hard to do, once the beta frame has been established in her mind and the respect has been lost. It really does depend, I think, on how far things have gone — how long were you beta, how beta were you, how far down the rabbit hold did the relationship go. The further, the less likely you can turn it around.

  20. scribblerg
    “Meanwhile, the entire social order is still working against you. You will be a fish swimming upstream.
    But in the end, the entire basis of Game is to see things strategically. To be results oriented. And once you’ve seen under the hood of the social conditioning, well, there is no going back. But going forward doesn’t seem to occur in a straight line either. This onion has a lot of layers.”

  21. As a woman can never see outside herself (solipsism), she can never see the man as he is — only as she has come to perceive him.

    A man cannot ‘fix’ her solipsism. It’s just how she is.

  22. @Rollo: that was a good MRP post, I remember reading, and your post here is also very good. Looking forward to the rest of the series. I think I’m in one of those situations (compounded by long distance), but I still haven’t fully convinced myself I should go actively try to increase to N>1.

  23. ‘I highly suggest everyone who hasn’t read it to read the pdf “Sex God Method” (Google that shit) A lot of guys’ problems are a faulty perception of what makes a good lover.”

    Word. The wilder the bedroom antics get, the calmer she is. They’ll always ask for more.

    Last night. “I don’t want to tell you…do something unexpected to me.” I was making shit up and getting mean. I hadn’t watched 50 SOG. Watch what they respond to.

  24. Iron Rule of Tomassi #7

    You can never really go home again.

    Power was mentioned above, which with women often manifests as control freak. It might seem reasonable that a woman with a beta would be glad to see him morph into something more desirable, but in practice, many women will actively RESIST his efforts at self-improvement. He’s dieting and looking better, she starts offering him more food. He’s finding time to work out, or put in extra effort to advance his prospects at work, she works harder to distract him. She does not want to lose the control advantage, even though she is dissatisfied with a beta on every other level.

    If a man successfully breaks contact with a woman that once had him in her power, makes himself into a winner, then returns to that woman under any pretense; he is handing her back some of that power.

  25. @newlyaloof
    I don’t think there’s any age that they won’t be fucked up a little.
    It’s the degree of fucked up-ness compared to your age that counts. i left when mine were 16 and 20 so they had a chance of getting a stable base (as much as possible I guess). On the other hand, I was 57 but relatively young-ish but this still hampers me targeting my preferred age range.

    So a cold-hearted calculation is needed – at what point do you sacrifice your remaining ‘prime’ years compared to the kid’s age and their ability to bounce back from the divorce event.
    I know in my case if I had RP’ed earlier i would have definitely left 10 years earlier instead of “doing the right thing”, especially seeing how now I basically don’t exist in my kids eyes anyways.

  26. Reading this just affirms what took place last night. I went through my phone and deleted any beta text message threads I sent girls in the past along with their phone numbers. There was a lot to delete. Then I went on to my Facebook page and removed myself from any groups that either flat out or appeared to appease beta behavior. Then this morning I read this. It’s perfect. As far as I’m concerned who I was is dead, that has to include everything I touched previously when it comes to women. Only dogs don’t have the sense to not eat their own vomit. Believe me it’s vomit all of it, so no thanks.

    I meet women all the time that was never a problem. I did not live in the fact that if I get a girls number that means I want something from her. In the past I treated that though as something that exists on the horizon I shouldn’t have. A true sign of intelligence isn’t about what you already know, it’s about how you approach what you don’t know. I am loving this.

    This is the great thing about life, there’s always rebirth. There’s always space to grow and become. That’s kind of shit gets me up! Lately I’ve been telling myself…it’s time to do something. It just keeps echoing in my mind…do something. It’s just matter of fact and very calm.

    So Thursday I’m going to try out some salsa dancing lessons. I’m not saying to get approved on the thread, that’s just the first thing that popped into my mind. To be honest this feels like the beginning.

  27. She will therefore keep the power, even if it doesn’t feel good for her to have the power, because she trusts herself with it more than beta you, who is not worthy of her respect.

    As I’m typing, Nova is explaining it better.

  28. @DisgruntledEarthling So you gave your kids 20 and 16 years of everything you had, and now after divorce, you are the bad guy? That’s fucked up, but one day they may understand, if they learn the red pill.

  29. Yup I’m the bad guy. I built a farm from scratch so they could have horses and a country life. The 16 (now 17yo) lives with her mother and never bothers to visit. The 21yo is moving to her mother’s because I yelled at her for leaving dirty dishes in the sink (for the n’th time) so the horse are leaving too.
    Boys might have behaved differently I guess.

  30. Iron Rule of Tomassi #7 might be the most difficult one to convey to cherries.

    Seems like a good 50% of the dudes I try to help want to pull their experience back in.

    Also, pretty much everything Roosh has said is bullshit.

  31. Funny comment from Wife last night in some discussion about what we are going to be doing in the near future:

    me: What did you think we were going to do about XYZ?

    wife: Whatever the fuck Agent P wants to do, like everything else.

    me: heheheh, good girl.

  32. @rollo
    Great piece as always, look forward to next chapters.

    A small formatting request if I may:

    When checking the site on my iproduct, if I come to the site and I want to see comments I have to scroll scroll scroll scroll for ever to get to the bottom to click the latest comments button to get to the end of comments. It’s a whole lot of scrolling to get to the latest action.

    Any chance a button could be placed at the TOP of the home screen or on the menu bar at the top to short cut to the latest comments?

    Would be a nice refinement to the user experience.

    That having been said, if I am a dumb fuck who missed a detail as to how to do that, please all feel free to shit all over me and tell me how I should be doing it proper like.

    Thanks

  33. I wonder what Red Pill men actually demonstrate by staying in bad marriages? I guess it does matter a lot what the man does while in the marriage, so if he’s got plates and the wife is cowed maybe it’s not so bad. But that seems to be the exception, not the rule.

    When they are very young, of course they need momma and dad intensively. But teen kids? How about showing that Dad isn’t a schmuck and is going to enjoy life on his own terms? Teen kids don’t need anywhere near the amount of structure and attention they are getting, and sadly, much of that attention is the wrong type. They are young adults biologically and while still developing, they do not need their parents up there asses. Structure of course really helps in some ways, but the structure of most schools and sports teams and the general social order of American schools is destructive to your child’s development anyway. Even the “good” private schools are still coddling and psychologically crippling.

    Maybe Dad should be the reality check? Maybe Dad should demonstrate that running his life around his kid’s sports team schedule is stupid? That his weekends are just as – or more – important that some soccer game the kid is playing? I was raised this way, and it was very common when I was young. The idea that your parents would bother to watch a practice was ludicrous. At a minimum, they would go to a diner or coffee shop nearby and read a paper or something. By the time I was coaching my daughter, there were numerous parents standing around like idiots watching 7yo kids run around playing bunch ball at practices and then virtually every parent was at every game. Prime time on Saturday, like these people don’t play golf or do things for themselves.

    You guys know what I’m talking about. This slavishness to their children which many parents exhibit to their kids is a big problem in and of itself. Kids need to get that they aren’t more important than their parents. Perhaps if more Dad’s said to their kids, “I love you and will always be here for you, but I won’t be a slave to you or your Mom, as I have my own life and it’s important to me.” Also recognize that in many real ways your kid’s lives are their own by the time they are in their midteens. The important aspects of development are already fully baked and when they get to college, your control drops to near zero. Even when they are 15, their lives are consumed with their friends and other parts of their life. Family is the foundation, but not the focal point. I see so many parents who don’t get this, and how the kids grin through the infantilization, and then they wonder why the kids just move back home after an initial stint with reality?

    Lol. While I have issues with my daughter now, I was always clear to her that her trip to university should be her final move out of the her Mom’s home. That to move home was to move backwards and she got it, fully launching herself into the world with a career and living on her own etc. Her mother, of course, told her she could move home any time and stay as long as she wanted to…

  34. @SFCton

    overhead press day, I wish. I fucked my shoulder good and proper 20 years ago in a mountain bike accident, that is now my Achillies heel doing Overhead Press but I keep at it. As a sailing guy I am awesome at pulling on things but kind of suck at pushing things so that’s what I am working on now.

    Only been lifting off and on for six months or so, I have a loooooong way to go to get to where I wish to be in that regard.

    Rejoice, today I am off to the shop to pick up a nice multi-bench, an extra bar and a plate tree to compliment my ghetto squat rack. I have spent the last week upgrading my personal temple for me and my weight gear. Now I have those gratuitous 2000 watts of sound system in there I am on my way to my zone.

    Not wishing I was better, just making myself better.

  35. @ Rollo – “The first presumption is that revenge might motivate a guy to want to pump and dump a girl who once blew him out back when he was locked into his Blue Pill mentality. Women like this idea because they think it confirms men’s egos being easily bruised, but I don’t think this is always the case.”

    “Women like this idea because they think it confirms men’s egos being easily bruised”.
    I just realized something about women while reading those words. They often reference “men’s egos”. This is usually in the context of denigrating men in general or attempting to denigrate one individual man, accusing men of being weak, prone to some sort of ego or emotional slavery. But I had never considered it in terms of confirmation, that women seek conformation of this. So, why would a woman want to confirm that a man’s ego is easily bruised other than as a test to disqualify him as an acceptable mate? Or, is it a power play, an attempt to confirm she can cause such “ego bruising”, for the purpose of inflating her own ego?

    @ Rollo again – “The first is that most Blue Pill men are conditioned from a very early age to always find fault in themselves before they would ever imply that it would be a woman’s. This was especially true if it was about sex. If you can’t satisfy a woman, it’s your fault. If a woman isn’t aroused or attracted by you, it’s your fault, so the presumption used to be that a man could only better himself as a means to reestablish an attraction that (presumably) he had with his wife before they were married.”

    But isn’t learning all this red pill stuff and shifting (gradually or not) from blue pill to red pill just another way of “fixing” the man to make himself more acceptable to women? The answer seems to be yes because red pill – blue pill in the MANosphere is primarily and almost exclusively presented and exercised in the context of male female relationships. Red pill certainly has its own set of characteristic trait requirements and a “do everything right” script which appears to be at least as sophisticated and strict as the blue pill. @Rollo again – “Today the hope for bettering a man’s sexual prospects in marriage is found primarily in Red Pill awareness.”

    If the female innately requires the male to be dominating in order to satisfy her, and he looks for ways to become dominating to satisfy her (or be acceptable to women in general), then isn’t her requirement in itself the overarching dominate frame?

    Rollo, most of what you have written and what is written in the mesosphere centers around this question. It is all about men becoming more aware, more in control of themselves so they can become more desirable to women and manage their relationships with women better. There is a whole lot of discussion, angst, and pontification concerning this, a lot of time and mental energy spent on it. And it all centers around men trying to become the kind of men women REALLY want and accept. In this context it certainly appears that the entire red pill mantra is nothing more than an attempt by men to qualify and fit themselves into the ultimate feminine frame.

    So, who is really in control?

    That question (decision) can only be answered (made) by each individual.

  36. Learn to pack your shoulders

    Get a kettle bell, overhead press it and walk around

    Get a hammer and a tire, wail on the tire with the hammer

    Won’t fix your shit but is a lot more effective then any traditional rehab program

  37. @Ergo Slugg, the Physical Humorist

    It’s not about attraction, it’s about power. Once she’s had power over you, there a 99.9% likelihood that she’s never giving it up, regardless of your self-improvement or changed attitude. I saw it in my marriage, and the only solution was to leave her, regardless of the cost. Now I’m happier than ever before, and still kick myself for not leaving sooner.

    The more that a woman is attracted to you, the more power you have in the relationship, ceteris paribus. I have finished reading Robert Greene’s “The 48 Laws of Power” (TFLoP) and it is one of the most useful books I have read for a relationship.

    I’m not saying that you made a bad decision to leave, but it IS possible to switch the power relationship in a marriage…that generally requires a Come To Jesus ™ confrontation where you are ready to leave. Maybe more than one. I had a second one of those a couple of nights ago. Mrs. Gamer was actually happy that I did that because I showed strength and no butthurtedness or false confidence. However, confrontation isn’t necessarily the best approach. Greene in TFLoP discusses an amorphous strategy which is probably the best long term strategy to retain power in a relationship.

    I still preach the wisdom of Shakespeare’s Taming of the Shrew. Petronius uses the amorphous strategy discussed by Greene in TFLoP to disorient and confuse his new bride to gain her trust. She fears trusting her own judgment and learns to trust her husband’s judgment. Following that path sets the relationship on a happy path at the very start…the woman learns to trust her man’s judgment in all things. Watching the play with Red Pill eyes is much more powerful than reading my unpersuasive text on the webz.

  38. Red Pill is a set of truths

    A man can be Red Pill, aware of those truths, and do nothing to improve his lot in life
    He can be aware, improve the shit out of himself and go his own way
    He can be aware and go out and bang 20 year old hottie without much self improvement

    Etc etc etc

  39. Waited until the youngest went to college. I was 52.

    For a few years before that, I had been making changes. But the more I became the new, real me, the more she didn’t like it.

    Agreed on the power angle. She had this image of who and what I was supposed to be. And when I wasn’t like that anymore, it frightened her because she felt like she was losing control. There was also this smugness about her. She thought she had everything clamped down tight.

    I still remember the day I got in her face because she was unjustly giving my youngest daughter shit about something. The look on her face was priceless when she started to realize: “who the fuck is this man in my face?”

    Awesome.

  40. Re: Pitt v. Jolie – See this article http://www.newser.com/story/236646/in-surprise-turn-jolie-pitt-claim-a-united-front.html

    Now they are presenting a “united front”. Hmmm, when Pitt was accused and investigated for drunkenly abusing his children that didn’t seem to be the case. It’s only after LE did thorough investigations and the charges against Pitt were found to be utterly baseless did this position emerge.

    Try to imagine the shoe was on the other foot. A say Kanye accuses Kim of abusing the children while drunk, and then it was shown to be false. Do you think the next thing we’d see is a “united front”? And the media just playing ball?

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t give a fuck about celebrities or the popular culture for the most part anymore. But I think such events are mileposts on our journey towards insanity. In any kind of just world, Jolie would now be shamed and held up as defective as a human being for going so low.

    But then think about Pitt. He’s probably being browbeaten by the “ya gotta do what’s best for the kids”. Hmmm, maybe, Brad, what’s best for the kids and the culture is you coming out and telling the world what a cunt Jolie is for manufacturing abuse allegations against you? But no, just like all the false public allegations women make against men all the time, nothing will be done. She’s simply not morally accountable for her actions because vagina.

    Christ I hope he’s fucking 20 young hotties.

  41. It’d be good for most guys to stop for a while and consider that most of the great scientific and cultural advancements in human history and human thought were created by men who were single or had lousy marriages. Really makes you think, doesn’t it? It seems that in most cases being with a woman usually = mental castration.
    I can see that from 90% of my old friends who are married. Guys who loved to party, were smart, had hobbies, loved to read and improve themselves. Now turned into “mental eunuchs”. Don’t like to see movies, don’t like to play videogames, don’t read anymore. Their only goal in life is to work (that is = providing lots of money for their One&Only), please their women and see things that their Fem-Master approves of. Needless to say, most of these guys are now my ex-friends. Some of them cut their ties with other friends (sometimes friendships as old as 20 years) only to retain connection with wife-approved friends (probably the ones who are fucking them, I’d say).

    Wanto to live happy? Learn how to live just with yourself, first.

    @ scribblerg: “Hmmm, does anyone else here see the nexus between this POV and politics? The modern Left is all about power. Marxism is all about power, in every sense of the word. “Whatever it takes” is a slogan of the left. They fight for keeps. That’s why the New Left began it’s “Long March” throughout the institutions of the West 60 years ago. They knew that’s the only way they could grasp power and really ‘change’ things. It’s not coincidental that so many women are power drunk and hysterically disconnected from reality. There is a fertile underpinning for this brought on by politics.”

    Very well written. One can see the effects of this in Europe. The EU is an economic and social mess right now. And it’s not hard to see why. Just look at the list of european politicians and European Union leaders: Betas, old geezers, junkies and tie-wearing perverts (Portugal even as a politician – Ferro Rodrigues – who was once implicated in a large pedophila investigation. That’s modern, equalitarian, democratic “Blue Pill” society for you, folks.

  42. @scrib

    I also think that this may be part of what the @OMGs have been getting at, that long term, marriage game is a nonstop, multi-dimensional game that has its own intensities and characteristics. That’s why they feel so strongly about game, as they are testing it in a non-stop tumbler of female chaos and yes, power.

    Your posts are now so awesome. I admire you and your growth.

    I would LIKE to sign on to what you say here, since I am an OMG, but I will have to think about this. Marriage is nonstop, to be sure, but how is it more multi-dimensional than single and spinning plates? All I can think of is kids and in-laws and your family. Sure, the personal relationships are more complex and your ability to Next your wife might be hindered. You can spin plates while married, of course, although how you spin them MIGHT not include sex.

  43. @scribblerg

    Well spoke about the teen thing. My method was to slowly let them gain their freedom and work things out themselves. By age 15/16 they were basically managing the horses themselves (vet, farrier, loading/unloading from the trailer, etc). But that was my way – their mother still mother-hens them.

    I think I remember once when my parents showed up to an actual baseball game when I was a kid (60’s/70’s). Other than that I was on my own which was good. The problem I see with ‘modern’ parents is I feel they’re trying to re-live their youth through their kids rather than getting on with their lives. While my teenagers were doing their thing I’d be out rock-climbing and mountain biking.

  44. @ASD – It’s multi-dimensional in the way that you mentioned. In game for plates, you are solving for a mostly lover qualification as it’s all about sex. But in LTR, or really anything more than just Plate-Fucking, you are also qualifying as boyfriend and need to deliver comfort in careful ways.

    In fact, I see this as the hardest part. Being dominant and aloof and self-centered comes naturally after a while, but I now do way too much of it to be in a relationship. The complaints the HB9 has about me after spending a few days with me were mostly about how little comfort I delivered. I see how comfort, delivered as a reward but also out of compassion is a must-have. But it’s also a trap because it can feel innately Blue Pill while doing it so it’s much more challenging, at least to me.

    @OMG’s game is as good with comfort as it is seduction and dominance. And sure, while you need to comfort in-set to get a same-night lay, it’s much simpler than knowing when and how to comfort than when say you are hanging out running errands and goofing around together on a Saturday. Solving for sex is much simpler than solving for LTR.

    Make sense?

  45. Well damn. Scribblerg’s comment above about what the OMGs are getting at is what I’m getting here, in spades. The post is good, of course, but you guys are validating every observation I’ve ever made while wondering if I was seeing things. This OMG isn’t losing his mind after all.

    I foresee gamer’s Come To Jesus moment happening in about a year.

  46. @Novaseeker
    Would augment a little bit the point that a husband must gain back the respect the woman who distrusts giving the power back to her perceived beta wuss. Which is: Because pushing for respect may be difficult is no reason to not try. Even a woman who, by temperament and even by words, might not be inclined to give back the power, if you push for that respect you can still get it back, at least enough to matter. In short, they may say they won’t cede power, but if you give them a chance, they’ll happily give it back, they want that sense of protection and show of strength – even if they send out little whimpers and shit tests of “protest” (you trying to be a caveman or something, hon?).

    Related to topic: was at a good comedy show where the comic brought up young couples onstage, the guys all Woody Allen-dweebish looking, the girls were all easy-on-the-eyes (as Letterman would say). Each of the dweebs confessed to the comic they were being friendzoned. The girls were happy to be at the show, but made clear they were “just friends”, and a couple even admitted outright they “weren’t dating”. That this was comic fodder was great. But I wouldn’t have wanted to be one of those guys. They were honest enough to blurt it out. But it wasn’t going to shame any of the girls into un-zoning their non-dates.

    The lesson being: shaming is not framing. Readers here grapple with that concept, I did once myself. But to see it onstage at a show…..!

  47. Pretty much everything most men do is in the pursuit of pussy and convincing themselves women are capable of some sort of divine love…short of becoming a Monk this is going to be the case for the vast majority of men under 60. The biggest shock for me was realizing the simple truth at 56 that I had wasted much of my life and potential doing just that, Even now after six years of RP rebuilding of my life I have to remind myself everyday of this.

  48. Therein lies the whole paradox of adopting the Red Pill. Adopting the Red Pill to win back an ex by its very motivation…is Blue Pill.

    Adopting Red Pill thinking as a way of living and game as the tool to maintain this requires discipline and a clear understanding of true female Nature which is driven by hypergamy…or always seeking to trade up.

    Using any strategy to “win” or “win back” any woman is low value….when you chase you make her high value…women don’t want to be in this position and if it’s forced on them hypergamy will prompt them to look for a higher value male who is more of a challenge.

  49. I could have written that reddit post. I thought for a long time I could save my marriage, but I’ve left that thought behind. I, too, am only staying around my house for the kid’s sake, but I have moved all my money into my own account that only I control and am looking into getting an apartment close to work. Sucks though, man! I’m the life of the party at home, so if daddy leaves, every ounce of fun will disappear from every single day of the week for my kids.

    Yup, me too, except I was just a beta fuck not a fat fuck and I’m only 6 months into it not 2 years. It is increasingly obvious my marriage cannot be saved. Why? To quote a different comment:

    So the key to get out of that rut is regaining her respect, which means de-beta-izing yourself in *her* eyes. That’s hard to do, once the beta frame has been established in her mind and the respect has been lost. It really does depend, I think, on how far things have gone — how long were you beta, how beta were you, how far down the rabbit hold did the relationship go. The further, the less likely you can turn it around.

    I was too beta, for too long. Too hard to turn it around.

    So all your improvements aren’t real to her. They are you fronting and she’s waiting, and maybe even trying to cause, you to slip up.

    Right now I keep hearing that any changes I make in me are “under duress” and “not the real me”. Basically she saw the weak beta for so long that she fully expects me to relapse into that guy (who is the “real me”) at any moment.

    I don’t think there’s any age that they won’t be fucked up a little.

    I agree, and they are the reason I’m trying to play married redpill on Legendary Difficulty rather than taking out the trash and starting over.

  50. Ronin
    “Pretty much everything most men do is in the pursuit of pussy and convincing themselves women are capable of some sort of divine love…”
    Yes but in a red pill context it’s applied as inward growth that can implode into self expression. That divine love is conditional. Always has been especially when women are involved. The red pill is what people are not what we want them to be. It’s something that helps me reach an ideal of the divine without being angry otherwise.

  51. When are incapable of love

    Their submission, however, is a close proxy. Probably so close less experienced men can’t tell the difference

  52. rugby11,

    Anger is of course just one phase most of us go through and pretty much have to on the road to self change. I’ve gone through it all, rode the emotional rollercoaster after 24 years of marriage, but still have to remind myself that life with women is basically the maxim for Klingon’s from Star Trek…”One must never weaken”……

  53. Scribblerg

    Solving for sex is much simpler than solving for LTR.

    Make sense?

    Abundant sense… this is the problem Yareally kept running into in denigrating the “OMGs”…

    I wonder what Red Pill men actually demonstrate by staying in bad marriages?

    I question if this is even possible, truly Red Pill guy will not be in a bad marriage… either the W will respond to his increasing RP behavior and change or he will leave…

    It’s the Purple PIll dudes… the Blue beta’s who never can get a full shade of red going that persist in this No Man’s Land… except it isn’t a No Man’s Land… he is behind enemy lines on his own, i.e. a captive.

    I have to be so mindful in her case as her SMV is so high that it triggers a Blue Pill Beta striving and need for approval in me that is pathetic…

    I really think that the Blue Pill makes a man see himself as innately flawed or broken…

    This is the legacy of the Golden Rule – Do unto others as you would have them do unto you… built in striving, appeasing, working… for something back…

    It is this mentality that keeps the guy Purple Pill… He can never sit back and say “Fuck it” and mean it… holding onto dog dreams that if he does a leeetle bit more, in whatever realm, she will find it good enough… and the cat remains indifferent if not contemptuous… because the cat thinks… If he would just pull that damn string away from me!!!

    Dog nature never aligning with cat nature… dogs seeking comfort and loyalty and sameness… cats being curious… well having nine lives will do that to you… LOL

    it’s like trying to handle uranium isotopes safely or something.

    A wise man once said being in a relationship with a woman was like living with an exotic pet… sleek, beautiful, exciting, invigorating and if you weren’t careful would rip your face off one day “out of the blue”…

  54. Ton
    “Women are….. fucking auto correct”
    Not all the time.
    Ronin
    If I’ve learned anything thy is the burden of performance. It’s being strong when everything falls apart. It’s embracing pain but choosing not to suffer. It’s being alive completely in harmony of your existence. Maintains the chaos and turmoil from the outside by having a balanced inside.

  55. Tarl

    Right now I keep hearing that any changes I make in me are “under duress” and “not the real me”. Basically she saw the weak beta for so long that she fully expects me to relapse into that guy (who is the “real me”) at any moment.

    Tarl you can still turn it around, but you must change your frame and not keep doing things to be reflecting through the “how will she see this” prism…. for real. That and beginning to show the dynamic, passionate and authentic qualities that all women find attractive, i.e. other women…

    Once those two things happen, you are a new man to her, because you are a new man. As new as any Chad T’Cock she runs into…

    see?

  56. @ Sentient

    “Tarl you can still turn it around, but you must change….”

    Word. Love your optimism.

  57. Dear wise men, I need some topic-related advice for a friend:

    Almost 2 years ago when I was commenting here more often a married friend of mine got into trouble when the mother of his 2 children decided she wanted to leave him to fuck some more men apparently. I found my friend in deep emotional trouble because of it when he started crying in front of me and I had to hug him to make him feel better. I decided to help him and told him what to do to regain control of his emotions and to get out of her power first, which she of course was using to hurt him.
    Since then things have gone very well. They are now divorced. She got no alimony or any other money. She also had to go into something like Chapter 11 because of the costs of the house she had him thrown out by her lawyer. She also has several criminal charges going against her because of what she did during the fighting to get money with her lover. The lover committed suicide a few month ago. Also my friend got custody of the older child and he can see the other whenever he wants.
    My friend had a relationship with a new women since, but he nexted her a few month ago.

    So much for the introduction: Now his former wife after getting totally destroyed in that divorce is trying to seduce him back. They fucked already and she is now cooking meals for him every day which she never did during the marriage.

    My friend really likes to fuck her (it never stopped during the marriage) and is obviously considering taking her back. Of course she is also trying to get him back into the state he was during marriage, regaining power. I told my friend already what to expect and how he can’t ever let himself go back to that. I also told him, if he takes her back, he should’nt promise monogamy on his part anymore and demand that healthy meal a day from her – or he should kick her out.

    But still, I don’t really know what advice to give him other than Rollo’s iron rule. Is there anything else to tell him?

  58. @Tarl

    Six months is nothing. And it is actually not too hard. Is it worth it? Only you can tell.

    I’m a quick learner and a self described inscrutable mastermind (and I had a lot of desire to turn around the betatization process because I judged it emminently worthwhile), but it took me 25 months to get traction (one month for every year of marraige and betatization).

    Here is the tide against which you swim:

    Illimitable Men MAXIM #22: “Women don’t care about your struggles, only your successes.”

    IM MAXIM #23: “Women want the final product, but successful men value a woman who was there for the journey. Women detest risk, so they have the propensity to hold back ambitious men with their petulant insecurities. Should he become too powerful, she fears she will lose her monopoly over him. She sabotages him to secure him, for the crab bucket mentality is intrinsic to women.” Refer to Maxim #22.

    IM MAXIM #24: “As her control increases, her attraction and respect decreases. As her control decreases, her attraction and respect increases. If a woman is with a submissive man trying to become dominant, she will utterly oppose him. She has accepted he is submissive and so she revels in the power her control gives her. If he becomes dominant, she loses the power and resources her monopoly granted her. And she will never forget his old ways, she will never really believe he is a worthy leader.”

    I kept reminding myself of these maxims, but I ignored them because those were Her Frame, and I had My Frame. And I had the Manosphere as a resource. Including this blog. These Maxims are on You to disprove, not for Her to correct as an error of her ways.

    It doesn’t hurt to do it for the kids. They matter. (This wasn’t a factor in my case because my kids were >18 years old, but what I have put in place for the kids after my transformation to non-beta has been great–the last 3 1/2 years).

    The process was helped by the MRP reddit process including Blue Pill Professor’s book. (I saw a guy commenting on mrp reddit the other day that said he read this last because it wasn’t free to torrent. And it turned out that it distilled every thing he had gotten right up to the point he read it. LOL, it’s $5.99 and only takes a couple short days to read. And it is the distilled process from 15 years of manosphere writings for married red pill).
    https://bluepillprofessor.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/hello-world/

    The manosphere is there to help. And I’m a firm advocate of the MRP sidebar resources and books. They work.

    Check out the first google search item (non advertisement) here (can’t post the reddit comment because it will post the whole thing):

    It is a search for “A Guide for Beginners to MRP” (reddit).

    https://www.google.com/search?q=a+guide+for+beginners+to+mrp&rlz=1CAACAO_enUS653US653&oq=a+guide+for+beginners+to+mrp&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65j69i64l3.10281j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

  59. I think you can only really be the “New Man” to a Wife or LTR is if :

    -She has not already decided to leave you ( they often do this long before there is any clue they’ve done it)

    -She currently has no other option in mind.

    -Other women higher in SMV than her are suddenly slavering all over the new improved version of you….

    The main problem with this is the ‘New Improved You’ is stuck with a woman who is seldom worthy of the changes you’ve made and will attempt to tear you back down at every opportunity.

  60. @ lh

    How open is he to RP? Is he really? Don’t let him drag you into his shitstorm if he’s not directly requesting advice from you. If you’re offering unsolicited (often futile) solid RP advice, and he’s cherry picking certain rules, inconsistently applying them…that’s trouble for him…and exasperation for you…seeing a friend blow himself up with your help.

  61. “…is stuck with a woman who is seldom worthy of the changes you’ve made and will attempt to tear you back down at every opportunity.”

    She’ll test shoddy frame and this isn’t about her anyways, she never was worthy. Guys underestimate themselves into inaction and drift.

  62. @lh

    I would tell your friend that he should seek pleasure elsewhere, he’s “rooting through garbage”. Once a woman cheats on you the relationship is done, over, gone, for the rest of time. To me it doesn’t matter what she offers or does to get you back, she’ll always have a low level of respect for you consciously or subconsciously if you get back together with her after she cheated. This signals extreme weakness on the mans part to take back a cheating ho and all women instinctively know this. As a newly awakened red pill dude, how do you live in peace knowing that you took back a woman who cheated on you and broke your family up in the process? This pretty much goes against everything the red pill stands for, kids or no kids.

    It sounds like she also walked all over him during the relationship so it’s only a matter of time before it goes back to that same dynamic again. If he gets back together with her things may be different at first, but mark my words, it won’t be long before that home cooked meal every day will taper off into a couple days a week, then one day a week, then once in a while, then zero. More than likely the timeframe coinciding with her fucking new men again. Then he’s gonna be left scratching his head wondering how the hell he got back into this same situtation for the second time.

    I wouldnt even sleep with her, I would just move on. She made her choices, so she can live with that. Just being around her is unwise; your friend will easily slip back into his old mindset and feel of that relationship. Tell him to leave the garbage at the curb, or better yet take it straight to the dump.

  63. “Adopting the Red Pill to win back an ex by its very motivation…is Blue Pill.”

    The Red Pill is contraband, so it is traded on the black market where there is no assurance of dosage or quality. The majority of Red Pills being hawked by some guy down a dark alley with a, “Pssssssst, hey, Buddy, you some good shit?” are Blue Pills in a red candy coating.

    And even the Blue is likely cut with Draino.

  64. “I wonder what Red Pill men actually demonstrate by staying in bad marriages?”

    I wonder what red pill men demonstrate by staying in “good” marriages

    the other day I told the wife I’m selling her engagement ring as I dislike what it represents. she was not thrilled but did not object. this is also a good reminder of the idea of what something is supposedly “worth” versus what someone will actually trade for it as the insurance “value” of that diamond is easily 300% or more higher than what a rational man will give me for it on any given day.

  65. @EhIntellect:

    He is generally very open for good advice and seeks himself good advisers. He is also open to RP ideas. But he is mostly unwilling to do all the hard work of understanding and working on the details. He is from a very wealthy family and can usually get himself what he wants. This trouble-free life gets him close enough to ZFG, but it also makes many things too easy. Too low T? He will go get him a car with more power. I think he understood now how he can’t buy women though, which was his main mistake.

    He won’t blow up and if so, he will let others help him out. I’m not really worried.

    I made some quite good experiences giving “unsolicited solid RP advice” btw. Pretty much every attempt I made to save something worked quite well. They don’t want to hear, they’ll argue against you, might even get angry at you, but the ideas will still stick and the more situations they can understand by these ideas, the more curious they’ll get. It’s like planting trees by spreading seed. Don’t worry, just do it ZFG.

  66. @lh: ” Is there anything else to tell him?”

    From where the Sun now stands, he shall make no more contact, forever.

    Not that he’ll listen or anything. The burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire.

  67. The parenting-type rant what follows – partly in answer to Grandmaster G above – is based on personal observations of slack parenting all around me. It’s not directed to anybody here or meant to speak to any commenter’s past actions or experiences. Maybe what I say will more usefully fit in with part 2 of the series.

    In my days since becoming The Day My Pad Went Mad, Dad, I’ve seen every dodgy parenting trend imaginable among my MC and UMC neighbors. Name it, I saw it.

    I established a rule I still follow: study what they do very closely. Then do the exact opposite.

    The biggest mistakes (that come to mind first) fall under the headers of:

    Dads should be moms. Act just like mommy. Don’t push, challenge, or tease the child to try, fail, encounter, adapt, overcome. Don’t bark when they screw up. Just gently whisper good feelz and be nice. If they get angry about anything drug ‘em. If the boys want to do boy things drug ‘em. Then make them play with dolls.

    If the girls want to be girls cut their hair and make them take up kickboxing and ballet (boys don’t do ballet). They can be girly girls so long as it’s a Disney princess or the Star Wars babe.

    Even better, mom will insist dad don’t know shit about how to raise yer kids up and force dad to just stand back and let mom run it all. Then she’ll bitch he’s a bad dad.

    Moms should be therapists and keen to try any fad some TV or magazine pukes up. Helicopter like motherfuckers. If you let them go in the back yard by themselves crazy clownsuits in white vans will grab them AND THEN HOW WOULD YOU FEEL? Don’t let them walk to school or bicycle or go hiking or play in the dirt (see, e.g., crazy clowns cited supra; Ebola everywhere). Don’t vaccinate them because Jill Stein and Jenny McCarthy and Trump say so, fuck science! If the kids die of measles, sue the school.

    Then there’s all the gender identity fad shit, the Mozart flashcards shit, teaching them Mandarin for our future Chinese overlords, the fake ADHD drug overdosage of boys for asking too many questions, boosting girls self-esteem until they cut their wrists with band-saws and starve themselves to stripper-pole thinness.

    AND THEN we parents forgo our duty to raise our sprogs at all because we got therapy and decided we’re UNHAAPPPY and sensitive and deserve bliss and want our own lives to be our bestest selves. Whereas our kids are STRONG and FLEXIBLE and can handle the world better than us so we kick them back and forth like footballs from mom’s house to dad’s squatter storage cubicle apartment. Put them on planes for visitation all by themselves because we have a court order and we have RIGHTS goddammit.

    And we wonder why they’re all fucked in the head and trust no one when it comes to relationships as they grow up.

    Here’s a true motherfuck story. A neighbor’s college-age kid got a silly tattoo which is supposed to be an owl’s eyes but looks like a pair of Magic 8-Balls (“ask again later”). So he gets kidded for its look but the story of why he got it is:

    He felt he needed a pair of wise eyes to watch over him, and help him resolve not to make the relationship mistakes has parents made. (multiple divorces all around).

    True motherfuck sad story #2: another neighbor’s kid told us about her divorced dad, who she sees regularly and says he is doing his best, living not far away. But she says he’s sad all the time. He’s a good dad with her but he doesn’t seem to have made any new friends, does nothing socially, just goes to a sports bar in a bowling alley and stares at ESPN. No new plates, apparently not trying to try. He’d been married to an Epiphany Party Girl who went all EPL on his sorry unknowing ass, got cash and prizes (a hillside mansion!), then remarried (I think) some twice-divorced gym instructor with two more sprogs and a couple big dogs. One of the sprogs is a slightly ADD teen who has not gotten over his gym-dad’s divorce blowing up the only house he’d ever known, surprise surprise. An Eliot Rodger in the making I fear.

    Hearing this second story I almost want to go meet up with sad dad and see if I can gently push him towards things reddish and TRM, which could do wonders for him. Unless, of course, he refuses to listen, which is likely, being a stubborn cuss if otherwise a decent guy.

    I did make an oath to myself that, having become a sprog generator, I owe a duty to said sprog to see her to the launchpad. To be there for the whole bootcamp, and pushing her away, letting her pull away, with the ultimate goal of getting her ready to fly away forever on her own.

    None of us Brilliant Boffo Baby Boomers likes that word, duty. Sounds like, well, dooty. But it answers Grandmaster G’s question why a did might feel compelled to stay in an LTR that has had its dodgy days as mine has. To see the project through. Take care of oneself in the meantime, then revisit the options available to me (“Should I Stay or Should I Go?”). Unless I end up getting cancer or diabetes or dengue fever or kidney explosions or heart transplants or backwards knees or cirrhosis or brain fog or Austrailian Crut Disorder.

  68. @kfg: Do you have children? I don’t. I don’t really now how it is. That’s why I don’t know. These girls are quite young still. And this mother needs someone to keep her in check, which he knew already.

  69. @Novaseeker –
    January 11, 2017 at 5:56 am

    “I think Ergo is right as well.

    The issue is that once you go beta in a marriage, the woman gets the power in the marriage. She may like this, she may not like it (most of them don’t like it in the long run, even if they do in the short run), but once it happens it’s exceptionally hard to turn it back the other way. The reason isn’t that she wants the power herself (some do, but many don’t), but that she doesn’t respect you enough to cede power to you — you are too beta for her to submit to your power, so she’s afraid to give you the power. She will therefore keep the power, even if it doesn’t feel good for her to have the power, because she trusts herself with it more than beta you, who is not worthy of her respect.

    So the key to get out of that rut is regaining her respect, which means de-beta-izing yourself in *her* eyes. That’s hard to do, once the beta frame has been established in her mind and the respect has been lost. It really does depend, I think, on how far things have gone — how long were you beta, how beta were you, how far down the rabbit hold did the relationship go. The further, the less likely you can turn it around.”

    Here is the key, so basic and fundamental it is often over looked. It is simply a matter of who will respect who. Is it not? If you respect someone else’s perception of you so much that you must jump through any sort of hoops (blue pill OR red pill), turn psychological cartwheels, try to “turn things around” or follow any sort of paradigm to gain their respect, THEN YOU AUTOMATICALLY FAIL.

    Why?

    BECAUSE, IF YOU VALUE SOMEONE ELSE’S RESPECT MORE THAN YOU VAULE YOUR OWN RESPECT FOR YOURSELF, THEN YOU ARE TELEGRAPHING TO THEM THAT YOU DO NOT RESPECT YOURSELF AND THEY SHOULDNT EITHER.

    Don’t get caught up in the cunt war of respect mongering. The simplest and only successful way to approach this is to comprehend AND ACCEPT the reality of it. This simply means not giving a shit if she respects you or not. Why would you need her respect more than your own? Her respect of you should be meaningless to you. Never let it become a psychological football. If she is not acceptable to you on your terms or doesn’t perform in the way you prefer, then ditch her. Find others who want to and will.

    Women are like money, slaves of wise men and masters of fools!!

  70. @scrib

    Calibrating the old lady and figuring out her game can be challenging because she gets to know you and your game. I busted Mrs. Gamer’s aloof game recently by totally switching my game from aloof to “I’m not hot enough for you and you need to let me go.” I did this in conjunction with “Young girls flirt with me and test my boundaries and old ladies think I’m creepy for enforcing my boundaries.” Mrs. Gamer asked for an example, which I readily supplied. It was all authentic and a great whipsaw.

    This fried Mrs. Gamer’s circuits as she was thinking, “Oh, no, he’s giving up! What do I do?” Mrs. Gamer has switched to being warm, compliant, sexy. Not sure how long this will last. I probably haven’t been giving her enough comfort and I need to up that a bit more…2 x 0.001 will seem like a huge increase to her. I probably need to reapply Not Hot Enuf 4 U Game one more time.

    The type of comfort that you give your SO also has to match what she needs…dates (rapport), backrubs, honeydo lists (demo of relationship buy in), cuddling…and this all requires calibration.

    @peregrine

    I foresee gamer’s Come To Jesus moment happening in about a year.

    Maybe, but people have been saying that about me for a couple of years now. People have been saying over on Dalrock’s that me going out on weekends would result in my divorce Real Soon Now ™.

  71. The process was helped by the MRP reddit process including Blue Pill Professor’s book.

    Yup, I have read it, and I read reddit askmrp and marriedredpill. I would say I am at Dread Level 5 now. Been studying game because my game is weak and always has been. Unquestionably, dread will not work on the wife at this stage of the relationship, because she is so checked out. (She’d be like, “Another woman? Great, have fun, see ya!”) But, I need to learn game anyway. It will either be used in this marriage or in subsequent relationships…

    In other news, I had never done a squat or a deadlift in my life before last August, and I’ve been enjoying some great noob gains on that front.

  72. @peregrine

    I foresee gamer’s Come To Jesus moment happening in about a year.

    Maybe, but people have been saying that about me for a couple of years now. People have been saying over on Dalrock’s that me going out on weekends would result in my divorce Real Soon Now ™.

    I totally misworded that, which is what I get for whipping through here between projects. I meant that I foresee the CTJ moment you described being delivered by me in about a year. It’s either that or the whipsaw treatment you just mentioned, which combined with Ronin’s criteria for being the New Man again sounds actually likely to work in my case.

  73. The main problem with this is the ‘New Improved You’ is stuck with a woman who is seldom worthy of the changes you’ve made and will attempt to tear you back down at every opportunity.

    Hence Iron Rule of Tomassi #7

  74. @lh: “Do you have children?”

    Not any more. It hurt. I left and I stayed gone anyway. There was nothing I could do to keep her in check.

    “And this mother needs someone to keep her in check . . .”

    His kids may still be his problem, but she isn’t, and that isn’t why he’s fucking her anyway. His finger is already back in the fire, the pain just hasn’t hit the ganglion yet.

    It will.

  75. I here you, kfg, and I admire your strength. But he could actually keep her in check enough until she wanted divorce to get out. It is also a game of power: In his marriage, he was the mid-20 rich boy with the girl in her prime. Now he is late 30 running a successful business of his own. And we totally destroyed her in that divorce. He is her only chance and she won’t underestimate him anymore.

    For me the question isn’t pain or not. It’s about ambition: Do you want to fuck better, hotter girls or do you want to live with your children and family?

  76. @LH – So many smart guys here and elsewhere in the manosphere on this stuff. That said, your friend really rang a bell with me.

    I like to show rather than tell. I’ve done this with 3-4 guys over the past year, so it’s not something I run around doing. But instead of talking Red Pill, I just open any women in the vicinity. Then I explain why it worked, later. Different conversations after that. But as in all things, I determine someone’s interest by their behavior. A young sales guy I noticed actually took my suggestion and read all of the back issues of Rational Male. He’s interested, but even he cannot get his head around it. So I just give hints and proof. Showed him a pic the HB9 sent me, nearly choked him. And he didn’t see the lingerie modeling session she sent me on Sunday, was at dinner with family and my phone is blowing up, lol, funny shit. Not bad for a fat old man. This kid is 30, not tall but in good shape. But he’s just so effing Blue Pill, I’m not sure.

    I say all we can do is open the door so a willing man can step in. What he does after that is up to him. He will be welcomed and get answers but if he asks no questions, well he’ll get no help. Seems fair enough to me.

    And remember. For alphas to exist there must be betas. Contrast is everything. So let’s not think we can rid ourselves of betahood, conversions are the rare exception, not the rule.

    The Red Pill is for men who want it, not men who need it. My sense is that the men who pick this up for the most part were half-assed alphas of some sort, maybe naturals too. It’s rare to meet the actual incel beta who turns himself around for realz. Giving zero fucks is easy to say…

  77. “But he could actually keep her in check enough until she wanted divorce to get out.”

    This is the Blue Pill way of phrasing “he couldn’t keep her in check.”

    “He is her only chance and she won’t underestimate him anymore.”

    Tally Cap’n Save a Hoooooo!

    ” . . . do you want to live with your children and family?”

    Certainly. With a white picket fence around the cute, little pink castle, with cute, little, comic relief, talking animals who do all the housework.

    Sign me up, Scotty.

  78. lh
    But still, I don’t really know what advice to give him other than Rollo’s iron rule. Is there anything else to tell him?

    Just Say No.
    She’s burned her bridges, the ferryboat, the ferry landing, any cablecars, etc. with regard to him.
    He’s only going to set himself up for bad things by taking her back.

  79. @ASD – Pretty funny that we’d connect over providing comfort to a woman, lol. Like I say, just stay in the fight, take the next step, make it to the next second and you never know what the fuck is going to happen. Life just gets more and more surprising. Difference these days? I’m open to all of it, and in many ways only because the Zero Fucks Given thing has really taken hold. Like what do I care that I used to be pissed off at you? Whatever.

    Back to the chiquitas. Ya, I had no idea how far to the extreme of giving zero comfort I’d gone. I give almost none, it’s all aloof and fucking. Fun for the evening but beyond that, well, yeah. I have done the whole bit you list out in the past, but somehow I let the Red Pill make me think I didn’t have to do any of that shit anymore. Not doing it felt weird, I had the impulse to be a bit nicer but found i just couldn’t strike the balance. Just out of practice, and was getting better by the time I left. But it was also on her turf, which was very constrained in lots of ways.

    Best part? I didn’t fuck it up. I also don’t spend too much time on it. I find it interesting and hey, let me be clear. She’s hotter than all the hotties I chase around the coffee shop. Sure, I’m still firing rounds but why not invest a bit with one? She’s so worth the freight. Have I mentioned she’s a nymphomaniac with no gag reflex? Almost like in that movie, I’m catching her after that phase of her life, sort of. Which is wild, she’s so dirty, she likes porn, loves anal, but it’s also intimidating.

    What a challenge to be up against, he he. And at some level, i don’t care. She’s worth the freight until she ain’t…

  80. @peregrine

    My path was to learn to dance well and lose a lot of weight and go out weekends and learn to give more comfort; I’m still working on giving comfort.

    Best wishes in your endeavor…play the field.

  81. If a woman doesn’t respect you, she won’t love you or lust after you. If you don’t tolerate her garbage and respect yourself, and hold her to a high standard of behavior, then that’s the most important thing. Her response to your standards should be irrelevant. I mean it shouldn’t alter your behavior.

    Her response is only relevant in deciding whether to keep her or kick her to the curb. Whether you stay or walk away. That’s it. Trying to stay in a dead relationship is as pointless as doing CPR to a dead body. It’s like trying to stay on the Titanic when you know it’s sinking. A complete waste of your time and your life. Your time = your life.

  82. Guys, I’ve never been married, but if I was and my wife cut off the sex because she saw me as a beta, I would cheat. If she see’s you as a beta, she will never suspect anything right?

  83. You’re right Scribbler, it’s not my part to decide. But since I told him how to use some dynamite to get into that position, at least I want good answers when I get asked.

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