Crisis of Motive

woman-pulling-puppet-strings

I had an interesting conversation with a cocktail waitress recently about how she wore the sexy outfits she did because they reaffirmed who she was.

“I do it for me.”

“Really? Lingerie, high heels, push up bra, that’s all for you?”

“Of course. I’m my own woman.”

“So, it’s not about the attention and affirmation you get from the men around you.”

“Well, that’s nice, if it’s coming from the right kind of guy, but I don’t wear what I do for them.”

“So if I came over to your house unannounced at like, 4 in the afternoon, you’d be wearing all this while you were vacuuming the house and not in sweatpants and a t-shirt?”

“Well,..no, but that’s not the point, I’m more comfortable in sweats,..”

“I see.”

It was far too easy to box her into the corner she was painting herself into, but I wont be too hard on her since this crisis of motive is also found in men. I can’t recall how many times I’ve heard guys at Gold’s tell me the same thing as to why they workout.

“I do it for me! Yeah, of course, chicks check me out more now that I’ve dropped the fat and bulked up, but this is all for me man.”

I’ll admit, I was that guy at one time. For a guy it makes sense to cop the story of singularity of purpose since it implies that he’s his ‘own man’ and not improving himself to become more acceptable to the women he observably and admittedly wants to get with. This is the paradox of self-improvement – are you doing it for yourself or because you want to others to respond more positively to you? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both.

There are certainly many side benefits to bodybuilding – improved health, attitude, lower stress, life-preserving function that results from increased muscularity, etc. but the minute we drop ‘a better sex life’ into that equation then we have to qualify it all with the “I do it for me” standby; as if our motivating desire to get laid is any less important than all of that. I’ll tell you right now, with 25+ years of lifting on my record, while I enjoy a lower life/health insurance premium as a result, I enjoy sex far too much to ever let myself become a fat ass. I do it for me and I do it because Mrs. Tomassi (and other women) responds positively to it and I enjoy the results.

This is a fundamental question guys swallowing the red pill and adopting a new Game-aware life have to answer – who are you doing it for?

There are a lot of traps involved in answering this question; traps that other AFC crabs in the barrel will use to pull you back in, traps that will attempt to convince you that you’re ‘being someone you’re not‘ and traps that will flatter you for your insightful desire to improve yourself, but only insofar as it serves feminine purposes. This is a common tar pit for men on the edge of accepting Red Pill truth:

From the Unbearable Triteness of Hating:

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

Whether he was intending to or not, Roissy was of course responding to exactly this crisis of motive. I don’t specifically agree or disagree with all the tenets of men who identify as MGTOW (I understand the reasoning), but I must point out that, from what I read, the crux of their beliefs are rooted in this same motive crisis. Is what you do, who you are, what you believe, a genuine, organic result of your own decision making (doing it for you) or is all you are the result of a latent purpose to better please a woman (or the Feminine Imperative for that matter)?

Introspect

Aunt Giggles had a post about a week ago lauding all the introspective men concerned with their own self-improvement. Bravo! Bravo introspective Beta, dig down deeper and embrace your inner white knight. While it may range between ego-flattering to self-evincing, true introspection is only useful in the light of why  you’re being introspective in the first place. You may get a pat on the back from the Feminine Imperative for introspectively aligning yourself with the Beta model it’s conditioned you for, or you may get a well needed cold bucket of Red Pill awareness splashed in your face as the result of your introspection, but the question is still who or what are you being introspective for?

With a crisis of motive, it’s very easy to not only cast doubt about the motives of others when they don’t agree with our own, but also to reaffirm our own faith in our own decision making. How many times have Game denialists said something like “those red pill guys are just misogynists, only interested in getting laid as much as possible”? This belief-disqualifier is based on the the presumption that sex is a red pill Man’s only, true, motivator – not himself, not for his own enlightenment, not of his own genuine volition. Red pill guys believe what they do to get laid and therefore dance to the tune women (or their sexual impulse) are playing for them. Distilled down to it’s base, the message is they aren’t acting as individual rational agents, but as robotic slaves beholden to external influences (in this case women or their sex drives). In other words, someone or something is controlling their decisions for them.

That’s some powerful affirmation for the one making accusations of disingenuousness, because it confirms for himself that not only is he a ‘genuine’ actor, but his insight must necessarily be more valid than the guy he’s judging. The problem with this, as I’m sure most are now aware, is that the accuser is already molded by outside influences himself. Thus, his motivation for accusation is suspect of a crisis of motive.

I understand this is some heady shit to take in, but I think it’s important to consider for guys on the cusp of Game-awareness, doubting their genuine want for changing themselves, as well as for guys falling back on motive crisis reasonings in order to justify why other men might disagree with them. I think an important question Men need to ask themselves is why am I changing my belief, my customs, my interpretations? It may be that it comes as a result of introspection, or a new awareness brought to them from an outside influence (the manosphere), but the answer to the question of who do you do it for is both yourself and the outside motivator.

So what made you change? Was it something I or another blogger wrote? Was it a traumatic experience that shocked you into awareness? Or were you just getting what you’d always gotten by doing what you’d always done?

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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adiaforon
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adiaforon
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Reading philosophy many years ago set me on the path of a certain kind of Red Pill awareness, thought not in dealing with women. That didn’t come until later when I started noticing their shenanigans myself, reinforced by what other guys my age told me. Still, it didn’t go deep enough, and I kind of lost interest because I was preoccupied with other things. I chose to detach and avoid instead of non-attach. Then, three years ago, when I wanted to start dating again, and felt confused as to why women were acting the way they were, I happened upon… Read more »

DEN1
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DEN1
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In the section titled Intorspect, is that a typo?

Rollo Tomassi
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That’s what I get for writing on the iPad, thanks.

Richard
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For me it was being linked to an article on Shark’s old blog “Solve My Girl Problems”. I read the first one and was dumbfounded. I proceeded to read every single article on the site that very day. It made so much sense, finally someone who laid out something that made sense of what I had been seeing all these years. Finally I could see how I related to women and what had worked for me by sheer happenstance and all those times my instincts were correct and I was oblivious or was working directly against them. It was my… Read more »

Ace Haley
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What made me change was a “semi-traumatic” experience. Rejection lol. I took it very personally, almost too personally. Anyway, it was the 3rd week of class and this was the 1st time rejection really hit me. Notice what football coaches say about players (i.e Tim Tebow) all the time when they’re not good enough – “he’s such a nice guy.” I apparently wasn’t good enough for her and this is what I heard when she was telling me about how sweet I was and how we should be friends. I haven’t had to hear those things since I changed my… Read more »

DEN1
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My change in perspective and attitude came through a divorce. While searching the internet to find out how this had happened to me, I came across Dalrock’s site and by extension, your site when I read your comments. Between The Rational Male and Dalrock, you guys SET.MY.MIND.ON.FIRE.! That first night read your blogs, I stayed up til 4am trying to absorb all I could, trying to make up for years of blue pill thinking that had gotten me to that point. I did not want anyone to put the fire out either. Never before had I heard any of the… Read more »

Revo Luzione
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Beautiful, insightful piece that packs some punch, Rollo, as per your standard work product. To answer your question about what made me change. Short answer is that I wanted to change my results, I wasn’t getting the net effect I wanted with women, though I was still reasonably successful with the ladies, though not a superstar. The full version, hell, it’s a longish story, but if you’re interested: I was reading seduction101 back in the mid-2000’s, though somehow was still blue-pill and somewhat into the new-age culture I learned enough game to get with a smokin’ hottie in that subculture… Read more »

chokingonredpills
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I’m no closer to landing myself a wife anytime soon. Red Pill has helped me understand the woman’s nature, both good and bad (but not in equal measures). It’s come to the point where I am beginning to discover and understand more about their nature in my everyday interactions with them. Things about them I hadn’t noticed are coming to the fore of my consciousness now. Everyday is a lesson in how to deal with and manage them as a proper man (not a half-arsed beta/gamma); and how to guard against their foibles and behaviour. All of these will eventually… Read more »

Andrews
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Very good thoughts. Two people do exactly the same even for the same reason, to get the same result, but, with a different attitude. Two men are thirsty and so they walk down to a creek to drink some fresh water. Both are doing it because they are parched, both feel that need to survive. One man sees himself as being distinct, seperated from his surroundings. He walks to that creek, that part of nature, he takes what he needs for himself – that water becomes part of him, he made it to be part of him, yet he remains… Read more »

Deep Strength
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Dissatisified with life, women, myself, everything. There’s the niggling feeling in the back of your head that the narrative doesn’t make sense at all.

The red pill is enlightening in that it allows you to see the truth for what it is, and in doing so you can be satisfied that you have a great measure of control over your own destiny.

I certainly have become more satisfied with who I am now, and who I want to be in the future.

As the neediness disappears, opportunities present themselves.

LiveFearless
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A friend of mine saw how my being my normal positive, super nice guy self was destroying the relationship I was in. He convinced me spend a lot of money to learn the basics of this realm from someone that I’ve gotten to know since then. It changed everything. As a bonus, living the habits that came from learning this stuff have improved every other area of life. The learning never stops. The more I practice living the habits, the more I am able to help others. What’s sad, however, is that too many men are addicted to being zealots… Read more »

Marcus666
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I started to swallow the red pill because I didn’t get laid and I wanted to understand woman in order to get them. Wolfing that red pill an obvious consequence and was very, very hard. I was horrified by the things I discovered. Nothing has changed much since then, except that I know now exactly why I don’t get laid. Getting girls is outside your control zone. Understanding the nature of woman and social dynamics doesn’t make you attractive, it only gives you a unique view on the world and you are able to avoid the missiles they fire at… Read more »

chokingonredpills
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Deep Strength: Enjoyed reading your comment. Looks like you are way ahead in your Red Pill journey, while I am possibly just getting started.

Marcus666: If they can keep their women attracted and dominate them, they may lower the threat of paying the price financially and of their manhood. And I believe that knowing Game and the Red Pill will put the control of getting girls back on your turf.

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AlphA
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I was dicking around in the library at Uni during my freshman year and a girl passed by. She made eye contact with me that, even in my Blue-Pill state, I could tell was more than “just a passing glance”. And then the following thought popped into my head: “I wish I could read her mind to know what she was thinking at that particular moment”. So then I opened my browser and googled the phrase “How to read a woman’s mind”. Fuck you, PUA community. Fuck you so very hard for keeping me up till 5am, bouncing from one… Read more »

EUR-EYE
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I am a bit confused by the supposed existence of the dichotomy in question. What can be more “for yourself” than getting a satisfying sexual life? How could the person´s sex drive be considered an “external influence” (here we are bordering at pure biological nonsense)? What intrigues me even more, is that “doing it to get the sex” should be “wrong” while “doing it for yourself” should be “right”. I see no wrong/right connotation in the matter. But I´ll try to play along. Here goes: The good prince decides to make himself more attractive for the sake of the improvement… Read more »

earl
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earl
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“So what made you change? Was it something I or another blogger wrote? Was it a traumatic experience that shocked you into awareness? ” Weights because I got beat up as a kid and girls didn’t notice me. The side effect was greater confidence in myself and better health. Studying psychology, body language, trends with people…because I got dumped way to easily and I had no clue why. The side effect was I could relate to people better. Game because I had no idea how to socialize with anybody correctly…women especially. The side effect was I had greater confidence in… Read more »

walawala
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walawala
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I googled “When she disrespects you” after a girl I had been CHASING 3 years ago backed off. I should have backed off. I chased. Then I read about game. The changes were slow but determined. Lots and LOTS of mis-steps. The techniques, the blogs, the advice, the encouragement help. But nothing beats doing it. I’ve learned that you can say something beta in an ALPHA way and get away with it. You can say something ALPHA but if you’re inner game is off, you crash. My goal is finding the balance between jerk and alpha. Women want a “man”… Read more »

M3
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M3
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I’ll be straight up. I did it for my own personal vengeance. I nailed my wedding band to the wall and anytime i felt like quitting the workouts i started.. i’d stare at that fucking thing. Tis all i needed to endure. Yes, i’ve copped the line ‘I did it for me’.. because in truth i did. I did it soley for me, by me, with help from no one (except maybe Tony Horton). So the goal i reached was for me and no one could take it away from me. The side benefit of that was i knew the… Read more »

Samuel
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I started working out years ago because I had to: military service was closing in. As a result got from obese fatass to lean skinny guy. During the progress found real joy in working out and it became a hobby, then a lifestyle. Nowadays I am working out as a part of self-enlightenment, part of enjoyment, and part because of the benefits.

In the game I got randomly from U21C video, I guess first video was from Manwhore. Got hooked in because realized I can increase my chances with women.

earl
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earl
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“I’ve learned that you can say something beta in an ALPHA way and get away with it.”

I call it…owning your weaknesses. There is no point in trying to eliminate every beta trait because every man has them. The point is to use them to your advantage.

Tampa
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I think one of the most difficult things i have had to deal with when it comes to unplugging and seeing women for who they really are is reevaluating my motives for almost everything i do in life.. Am i buying this car to impress women subcounsciouly? Am i wearing this to impress women? why am i talking and acting like this? etc. If the behavior is effective in getting me laid, then it probably makes sense, but i think most men would be suprised at how much of the behavior they engage in doesn’t lead to more sex and… Read more »

tarzanwannabe
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tarzanwannabe
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Is motive for me? Or them? (‘them’ being the FI) That’s like asking which side of a coin holds the value. But I determine that am the “heads” side of the coin, iow, the author. They are the “tails” side. Sorta poetic, huh? Haha!

nick42983
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For me it was a rejection from a girl I’d invested a lot of time and emotion in over several years. We weren’t even dating and she lived in Europe, we emailed/texted often, but only saw each other once in the two years after we initially met. I thought she was “the one” and it was only a matter of time until we could figure things out. I’d contemplated moving to see her. Twice, while I was visiting Poland, she asked me to visit her (in Lithuania). Both times I was ready to go, but once I contacted her, silence.… Read more »

donalgraeme
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I’ll admit, I was that guy at one time. For a guy it makes sense to cop the story of singularity of purpose since it implies that he’s his ‘own man’ and not improving himself to become more acceptable to the women he observably and admittedly wants to get with. This is the paradox of self-improvement – are you doing it for yourself or because you want to others to respond more positively to you? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both. There are certainly many side benefits to bodybuilding – improved health, attitude,… Read more »

Blanchard
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I can honestly say all the effort I put into improving myself is for me. And I believe it’s because all the concious effort I’ve put into self improvement has come after I started having success with women. Being a 6’2″ 170lb soccer player, I started weight training to challenge myself; to see what I could accomplish, if I could gain some mass. At the time I was in a LTR with a HB7 who is 8 years younger than I. Now I’ve shifted focus to my finances because I don’t want to be a salary man in to my… Read more »

Sundance
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Sundance
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Everything you do in life is for yourself. Kids, charity, sympathy, favors – all born from an inner impulse you seek to satiate…or not.

The only truly altruistic act is to sacrifice your life so that someone else lives.

Jeremy
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So what made you change? I wouldn’t necessarily consider that I have changed as a deliberate act of course reversal. When I think back on how I used to think, I can’t find a moment when I suddenly realized, “oh yeah, I’m red pill now.” There was definitely, even until a few years ago, some significant blue-pill thinking still rattling around the brain. But the degree to which I had already become jaded on what was expected of me as a blue pill man was so great already that there wasn’t a high degree of slope along the journey. I… Read more »

anotheronetakesthepill
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Regarding the haters saying: “you are becoming somewhere you were not” well, who we were was not giving us the success we thought it should so why not changing? .. Yes I was that, and now I improved myself and I am this … don’t see the problem. Life is made of evolving However it’s really hard to abandon who you were and transform yourself into a better version of you (gym, attitude regarding life, attitude regarding women, etc) so I understand people complaining and putting down others. We live in the era of effortless achievements and that’s why it’s… Read more »

BlackPoisonSoul
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After my divorce I went out and started learning and doing things to improve myself. Doing something different, to fill in the time so that I wasn’t sitting around moping uselessly and feeling sorry for myself. Yoga, dance, gym… One of the things that I did was start poking around on a psychology forum, in an effort to find about myself and others. (I’m an ISTJ, if that means much.) One of the guys on there saw that I was primed for the Red Pill and fed me Chateau Heartiste. Three years on, I’m still learning and I’m still digesting… Read more »

xsplat
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Ya, I’ve never really groked the dancing monkey thing. I figure the guys who espouse that line either have very low libido and so can not understand how men are motivated by a desire to fuck, or dislike their inner desires; they wish they didn’t wish to fuck. I want sex therefore I do what is required to get sex. Does that mean that I am dancing monkey for pussy? That I am a dancing monkey for my own desires? Or does it mean that *I* know what *I* want, and I go after it, directly, with no excuses. Without… Read more »

Harkness
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Looking back it took a few sites and some real world experience for me to start to develop game awareness; the earliest site I can remember is Shark’s and the ones that tied it all together was this site and Neil Strauss’ The Game.

I’ve asked myself this question more than once, but for me it is both for myself and the attraction of others, would be lying if I said it wasn’t.

It’s knowing the effect I have on a woman, that seduction done right that plays a part in why I love Game so.

xsplat
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To the MGTOWs who feel that sexual puritanism is a self discipline that leads to freedom from being under the control of their desires: Enjoying life as best as possible is the highest possible philosophical and ethical position. The buck has to stop somewhere – it must stop at the individual in his lifetime – otherwise he is just teaching everyone around him by example to NOT enjoy life, which is unethical and a boring drag and a waste of precious human birth. Not causing suffering to others is considered ethical, but that doesn’t go as far as it can.… Read more »

Andrews
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xsplat wrote: “Life is about eating cookies, not postponement. It’s about maximizing our position to sustainably enjoy as much pleasure as possible.” hm… Would you think or feel it’s better to attract with or without intent? Is there a difference between trying to appeal to women by focusing on them, by learning about them and adapting to what you have learned – to make yourself attractive for them And attracting without intent, focusing on your self and being awesome for your own sake and getting the attention of women without pursuing them in a direct manner? Similar, with pleasure –… Read more »

Andrews
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Just to make my last post more clear – this is not about MGTOW or being a monk or whatever.

xsplat
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Andrews, I’m of the opinion that knowing what you want is NOT an impediment to obtaining what you want. I know that women like to think that men are naturals, and if they smell a try hard it can be a turn off. I understand also that some men have therefore taken it upon themselves to deliberately be ignorant of their trying, so that they can’t possibly appear to be trying – they don’t even know that they are trying. But they ARE trying, whether they know it or not. I agree with Roissy and Rollo. We can’t help but… Read more »

Andrews
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Yes, a man wants women, it’s a need. A direct approach would be to take what you want by force. That’s active, aggressive, direct, in my book – masculine. Let’s go back in time. So a man takes the female he wants, the only requirement is that the other clan members, essentially his environment, accept his mating choice. The female can’t stop him – usually the man will be physically stronger. A woman has developed in a way which appeases her, in part, when she is taken by an aggressive man by force. That’s her psychology. So why do we… Read more »

Andrews
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In that scenario a man is active in his pursuit of women, he shows them that he’s interested but he’s attractive without intent, he attracts without intent. That is two different things. He knows what he wants and he pursues it. That’s the active part, taking it by ‘force’. But at the same time he passes her filter by being strong for his own sake and not by appealing to her directly. That would run completely counter to his active part, because appealing directly to her is feminine in essence “Look at me, how beautiful I am…” A feminine woman… Read more »

En-sigma
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I was half a red pill before. finding the manosphere did not change anything except that nagging feeling that I was swimming upstream. And the stream was on fire. And filled with icebergs at the same time. Finding the red pill just allowed me to articulate what I was feeling and why I was feeling it. I had already gotten my “oneitis” wife and did it my way which in no way reflects the beta orbiter, wear-her-down method. Still she acted in ways that made no sense, which I never stood for, and said things out of left field that… Read more »

qqquietone
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Reblogged this on qqquietone's Blog.

Sam Spade
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Sam Spade
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Everything I do is for sex when you boil it down. Even if I “take a break” from women to work on myself, in the long run it’s for sex. But the pursuit of sex is for me. We’re all selfish in that sense. So you can either call it for procreation, or for personal happiness. It doesn’t matter so long as you don’t kid yourself. We’re born to pursue it, and old mother nature found a way to reward us for it chemically.

Mark Minter
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So then after what seemed like a hell of an eternity being married to the biggest BPD woman in four state area, a woman so vicious my friends all called her “The Great White”, both in reference to her North Shore Long Island background and to the way she would leap out of the sea and devour baby seals, I decided I needed to make a severe lifestyle change, my own Eat, Pray, Love, Mark got his groove back sort of thing after being a husband in America. So given the particularly low spot I was at, I got a… Read more »

The Other Jim
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I’ve never quite understood the antipathy between the MGTOW’ers and PUA’s. The differences between seem only to be choosing the different opportunities one sets up for oneself. For MGTOW’ers that might be more about working and making money than getting laid, for PUA’s that might be getting laid more than focusing on work. Both strategies seem to be about putting yourself first and making the most of professional and personal opportunities that come your way-often through your own initiative. I don’t understand why these strategies have to be exclusive. The real trick is to be able to manage both simultaneously.… Read more »

Glenbert
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I got cheated on. I knew about game and it had gotten me what I wanted in my 20s. However, I wanted to change and pulled a complete 180 in an effort to settle down so, no more game, right? I met a cool girl, but she turned into an overweight ballbuster. I went ahead and popped the question anyway, thinking that it was like that for everyone, and the bitch cheated on my soon after. Why? I started lurking an infidelity forum and posted my story. It was helpful, but then I went out and met a couple of… Read more »

walawala
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The societal pressues are enormous for a guy conform to an AFC mind-set of apologizing, treating women like princesses, giving up your power, succumbing to guilt trips. Adopting an attitude of appeasement: “Oh, I’m sorry” are too easy. But who are you doing THAT for? Am I adopting game for my own self-improvement or to impress girls? An illustration, I was feeling down and lacking any motivation wanting to feel sorry for myself “remembering the good times” after my break-up. But i l ploughed on. I went out to a party. I forced myself to pretend everything was ok. I… Read more »

Sonnit
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I sold myself wholesale to the motive. The manosphere exposed some dark and uncomfortable truths about myself that I was incapable to see at the time but willing to finally accept. Although I’m only two years in, it still makes me laugh when I think about how easily manipulable my belief system was/is. The consistent influx of new information overloaded my senses and I had little thought power left to analyse why I was turning my entire life around. Only until recently do I feel like I’ve reached a balance, and an awareness of what I truly want and why… Read more »

Mark Minter
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Ok, Rollo. This is a serious comment. Almost all of my others for a while have been joking shit. And for the past months there has been a distraction in my life that has kept me from my mission in life of researching shit in the manosphere to bug the fuck of people with facts from studies. So I did go through that Testosterone phase and did succeed in bugging the fuck of of people like a broken record. And many people probably chuckled and guffawed at my findings but I still stand by them. And the essence of it… Read more »

monster221
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To say that it does not occur to me that women will like me more if i continue working out and stay in shape would be a lie. but to say that i do it specifically for that purpose is too much of a generalization. I work out for self development. i do it to expand my capabilities and influence in my world. it gives me more physical influence in the form of physical strength, i will live longer and stay capable longer, my mind will be more capable AND it expands my capabilities with the ladies, an important part… Read more »

Stringer Bell
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Rollo, as someone who’s been lifting a while, I’m sure you can attest to the fact that the motivations behind an action change the further you go down a path. Sure, a guy who starts lifting might initially be doing it to boost sex appeal, gain confidence, and be healthier. There comes a time, though, where attractiveness to women fades as a motivator and you have find out what lifting really means to you. Unless a woman is a competitive lifter, she won’t understand the difference in discipline and effort that it takes to get a 225 bench to a… Read more »

xsplat
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I’m just going to drop a copy of a relevant blog post here: The big picture is that people want to be happy, and that the big picture is exactly this and none other than this “we have to see the bigger picture and use all our faculties to maximize pleasure for the long term.” This means that we agree that there are many different avenues and ways that our competing internal interests find happiness and satisfaction. We want cookies, and we want to look good in the mirror. We want to be rich in cookies, and we get pleasure… Read more »

avd
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avd
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I was twenty, dating a lingerie model; we were in a happening bar. She was off with her friends. I was with my friends. My boys were carousing. I was sticking close to the bar out of “fidelity.” Then I saw it: “Damn, look at all of this social interaction happening right in front of my face! I’m going to dive into the middle of this mosh pit and see what happens!” Thus began my “red pill” journey… a long journey of many females… many LTRs… and many, MANY fuck ups. Observations and actions and reactions and recalibrations and recalibrations,… Read more »

Mark Minter
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Rollo here is a chip shot post for you. There has been a blast of articles out about interpretations of this study is Journal of Communication about Long Distance Relationships. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jcom.12029/abstract The article is a whole 3 pages long, so definitely it “must” be an exhaustive work on the subject. Here is USA Today article about it. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/20/long-distance-relationships-2013/2568295/ And Time article about it. http://healthland.time.com/2013/07/18/get-away-from-me-study-suggests-long-distance-relationships-deeper/ I think the Time piece, written by Belinda something or other, is very hamster driven. And I think both go against the idea of Buffers. So you should be able to toss something together quickly to… Read more »

Bobb Dobbs
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Technically we do everything to please ourselves, since we are goal oriented beings. It’s a standard female complaint that many so-called “nice guys” are just acting “nice” to get sex. It’s a standard liberal complaint that aggressive businessmen serve customer needs only in order to gain profit. Thus there seems to be a need to examine the “purity” of everyone’s motivations. Many people go to great efforts to expose the underlying “impurity” of the motivations of others. Since we will continue to be goal oriented and since we will continue to be scrutinized in regard to our motivational purity, it… Read more »

xsplat
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“Hence the reason most of us lie about our motivations — it’s all part of the game.”

Rollo has mentioned the theory that women are incapable of introspection because being aware of their dual mating strategy would leave them more open to being outed and rejected.

Apparently the same thing goes on for some men. They are not able to know of their own motivations, lest the appear to women as try hards.

Dr.Bombay
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I think majority of you guys miss the problem. Let us have a guy who is addicted to cocain, or cigarettes, or whatever. He works very hard to obtain his daily dose. Now, does he do that ‘for himself’, or is he just a slave to the addiction, a puppet? In certain sense, of course he does it ‘for himself’ – without his daily dose, he will feel like shit; if he succeeds in jumping through the hoops to obtain it, he will feel good.If all you look for is how he feels, whether he satisfied his ‘needs’, what he… Read more »

xsplat
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Dr. Bombay, if you take that same principle and apply it broadly your goal in life will to be an anhedonic drone.

We seek pleasure, and that is good.

You are confusing the problem being seeking and attaining pleasure, and ignoring the cost/benefits of each pleasure. Heroin has huge costs. If it only provided pleasurable benefits then it would be fine.

A person can structure their life such that the pleasures of women and sex outweighs the costs. People do that, you know.

Your entire attitude of viewing desire as pathological and slavery is FUCKED UP.

FuriousFerret
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^^^^^^^^^^^

Sex is one of the strongest biomechanical urge that a man feels in his entire life. The only ones that trump it are food and immediate physical safety. It is a primal prime directive. You can’t compare sex to hardcore drugs since it’s a fundamental natural need to be satiated whereas the human body doesn’t have a natural drug requirement.

RyRy
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This blog was what finally made me accept the red pill. I had read the ladder theory and agreed with it but it never really sank in.The style of writing on this blog was able to clearly explain the nature of women and with every post I read there was a corresponding life experience to match it. I was able to see why my mother could abandon her family and not feel an ounce of regret. I could go over past relationships and dates and pinpoint what I did to lose the initial attraction a woman had for me.and why… Read more »

xsplat
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I can see the logic. Guys who can’t get what they want want to stop wanting it, because wanting something without getting it is painful. It’s one tactic to take. It’s not the best tactic. A better tactic includes BOTH the emotional regulation of lowering expectations and being satisfied with what is attainable (limiting desires), AND working to attain what is currently unattainable (becoming a better, more attractive man). Having the philosophy that desire itself is the problem is shooting yourself in the foot, all in the name of ego protection. “I’m fine just the way I am – I… Read more »

RyRy
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@xsplat Certainly have no interest in boycotting women or giving up on self improvement. Just as you point out the ego protection of extremist MGTOW guys I am wondering if some game advocates are protecting their own egos by completely shunning MGTOW ideas. For example, say a man is a 5 and with hard work can improve himself to become a 7; should that man never/rarely get to fuck a 9 because he can’t ever reach her level or should he embrace some MGTOW philosophy and call up an escort for an hour of fun every now and then? Or… Read more »

xsplat
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Ryry, we share the same concept of cost benefit. I don’t think all MGTOW philosophies are ridiculous, and some writing from guys who identify as MGTOW is great. For instance the guy who coined the term has a great insightful blog over at http://no-maam.blogspot.com/ It’s just that it appears that most guys who self identify as MGTOW are not insightful and wise, but are fucked up. It’s only the fucked up ideas that I speak out against. Rollos post here is about one such fucked up idea that men who identify as MGTOW talk about. It’s stupid and harmful to… Read more »

RyRy
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RyRy
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@xsplat

I have to agree many MGTOW advocates seem to take things to far and desire for women is not slavery. I’ll check out that blog, thanks.

Andrews
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We all have needs, desires. We are all ‘slaves’ to those needs more or less – that’s life. How we approach that essential force of life is different. For example – — A buddhist will try to minimize his needs – the goal is to have no needs. His level of activity will reach zero – that would be his ideal state. No suffering and also no pleasure. This can be achieved by cutting off the passions, the body – focusing his thoughts on the conscious, a meditation. No passions; focused on the conscious, the mind itself with the goal… Read more »

BA
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BA
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xplat said “A better tactic includes BOTH the emotional regulation of lowering expectations and being satisfied with what is attainable (limiting desires), AND working to attain what is currently unattainable (becoming a better, more attractive man).” Good comment & how I’ve lived my life so far. And I’m catching up to Minter in years. Do the best you can now and work to improve so you have a better future. Due to age, my SMV isn’t very high so the odds of getting with a 22 year old super-model are remote. But take the 25 year old waitress, the 30… Read more »

kuis
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There is a little too much reductionism in this comment section for my liking. For example, the idea that we can just look at things ‘rationally’ while ignoring moral implications is a fantasy at best. Also, self interest is not the same as ‘selfish’. We can act in our self interest in a way that benefits others as well as ourselves. Claiming that self interest is the dominant determinant of human behaviour is not an argument that holds up to close scrutiny, unless you are arguing that the reason this is so is because humans are (rational?) agents that continue… Read more »

D-Man
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I agree with Mark that T is huge. Intimately linked to self-concept. If you think yourself a loser, your T levels will be suppressed. If you follow proven steps to raise it, your self-concept should improve. You’re back in your own corner, you’re fighting back against a world that wants to extinguish your spirit. Up to a point. I DON’T think it’s the be-all/end-all, or a case of more-is-better with no ceiling to it. I DO believe it’s a great starting point, especially for those who find themselves at a disadvantage. BUT there are many, many “swole” guys out there,… Read more »

Keanu
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Keanu
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I found the manosphere when I had googled ‘Tucker Max Book Review’ and the first site that came up was Freedom 25. I bought his little ebook Freedom 25 and gave it a read. First time I ever read about the ‘Eat Prey Love’ mentality. At that same time, I had just recently read ‘The Game,’ a completely unrelated book recommendation (the friend who reccomended it actually told me he thought it was stupid). Once I found out the manosphere and the game were related, I couldn’t help but delve into more reading. I spent a full day reading this… Read more »

xsplat
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Andrews wrote There is also an avenue where a man recognizes his passions – knows what they are but has a reign over them. This is not about denial. One way to look at it is to imagine passions to be the feminine part of a psyche. As in the outside world, a good relationship is when a man leads and his woman follows. There is no disrespect in this. Good leadership is tough to bring about and requires a lot of self-discipline. Not denying it but having a reign over them. Difficult because it require constant effort and readjustments.… Read more »

kuis
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kuis
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KEANU: What are you doing now if not teaching?

Andrews
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xsplat wrote: “If you are saying that the very denial of them in the service of self control is valuable, then I don’t. That’s simply asceticism.” It is asceticism. Asceticism in its original meaning of the word simply means training, practice. You probably associate it with prudery because of christian asceticism, a training or practice of christian values. You see no value in self control because, for you, the very act of self control is not satisfactory. Additionally, knowingly or not, you have analyzed the current social situation/environment and recognized that at the moment there is not much reason to… Read more »

Archon
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@Andrews: Asceticism isn’t training and practice. It’s self-denial; a *demonstration* of discipline. It’s proving to the world that you have enough discipline to give up perfectly good, innocent pleasures for the sake of demonstrating that you have that much discipline. Having discipline is great. One can value discipline without valuing denial. If the only value in denial is glory to the sky fairies, then those that don’t worship the sky fairies have no reason to engage in it. Self-control is a value in those cases where denying oneself a pleasure now produces greater value in the future. It sounds like… Read more »

Keanu
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Keanu
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Translating.

Andrews
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Andrews
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@Archon.

I wrote that asceticism in its original form means training and practice. And so it does – look it up in a decent dictionary, the original greek word means to exercise, to train,…

Nothing about religion or ‘sky fairies’. – again.

You’ve got a problem with me? Or just with the word asceticism?
Because if it is with me then be direct and upfront about it!

xsplat
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There is no such thing as freedom. As soon as you define it, you’ll immediately see that it’s a ridiculous concept and an impossibility to attain. Many of us have had long periods where just being alive was mentally painful, in so many ways, and we struggled to get out from that state. We turned to every possible avenue. Some of us had turned to meditation and philosophy and a community of like minded seekers. And for some of us that worked, and the pain and suffering diminished and it was good to be alive most of the time, sometimes… Read more »

Andrews
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Xsplat, I have been telling you three times now that I am talking about a chair and not a cupboard. I have explained to you what I mean when I say ‘chair’, how it looks like and what it does but you insist, willfully I have to assume, that I am talking about a cupboard when I say chair. If I’d know your word for chair, in your language, then I’d use it but in your world there is no chair, it doesn’t exist, you have no idea what it is – so you keep on telling me about that… Read more »

xsplat
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Thanks for clearing that up Andrews. Your words have now created a crystal clear image in my head of what you really mean to say. Masterful use of language.

Actually, no. Or maybe it’s my fault for not being a great mind reader?

Andrews
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Andrews
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So, what do you think about pride? Why does it exist? What’s its function? That’s essential to the perspective I am pointing out. (try to, like a Try-hard – hahah) Buddhism doesn’t like pride. Neither does Christianity. Pride can be a real problem when it comes to getting laid. Not much room for pride in hedonism. From the wiki – Pride is an inwardly directed emotion that carries two common meanings. With a negative connotation, pride refers to an inflated sense of one’s personal status or accomplishments, often used synonymously with hubris. With a positive connotation, pride refers to a… Read more »

DJ Xealot
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A lot of Game is simply a return to a man’s natural masculine state. Now, for a lot of men this is harder than it ought to be, because from birth we are conditioned to the Feminine Imperative. That’s what it was for me. I was at the edge of Red Pill awareness long before I discovered Game or heard of PUAs, or any of that. Like Morpheus said in the Matrix, I knew there was something wrong with the world, something that didn’t add up in the usual way, but it was difficult to articulate. I find the more… Read more »

xsplat
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xsplat
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So, what do you think about pride? Why does it exist? What’s its function? Pride about what? Pride about being able to hold in a dump for the longest amount of time? Pride about being able to not fuck? Pride about having pride? If pride has a function, then look to what you want to accomplish and guage if the pride is working towards that ends you want, or not. If pride is the end in and of itself, then it’s not a fulfilling a function. What can it bee good for? Well, it can be motivational – a guy… Read more »

Andrews
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Andrews
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Still babbling about your kitchensink. So this is you venting about MGTOWs or whoever. Carry on then.

Catalyst
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Catalyst
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After my wife and I separated, I was deeply depressed. Somewhere in there, I stumbled upon MMSL and it resonated really deeply with me. That was my Red Pill Moment. Everything since has been onward and upward

Yep It's Me
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Yep It's Me
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Marriage fell apart (not in one cataclysmic moment, but slowly over several years). She moved out, took the kids, left me to deal with the mortgage company and the house, I supported (and still do) her and the kids. One day I decided to quit being a lazy fat guy, so started working out. I also tried to get her back (in all the wrong ways) – when that backfired, I found No More Mr. Nice Guy and the forum over there. From there, I found Way of the Superior Man and Married Man’s Sex Life Primer. All those pointed… Read more »

deadliftman
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deadliftman
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The reason why men should work out is simple.

It builds testosterone. More testosterone means more dominance. More dominance means more success with women and social settings.

The actual muscles build certainly look good. But that is secondary compared to the heightened testosterone levels.

Titanic
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Titanic
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” … life-preserving function that results from increased muscularity …”

Totally correct and underappreciated. Being wrapped in a suit of muscle is a huge buffer against physical stress.

JackBlack23
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JackBlack23
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Here is my story: I broke up for good with the girl my former beta self thought was the ONE in fall 2010 (she kept dumping me and then crawling back and even though I was heartbroken about it I finally found the balls to put an end to the cycle) … sometime in spring 2011 I stumbled upon Roosh’s blog and some other PUA type websites and became fascinated with pickup with the unspoken intention of finding another ONE … flash forward to summer 2012 and I think I finally found another ONE who I am head over heels… Read more »

Chris M.
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Chris M.
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You guys helped save my bitter, passive/aggressive, everyone is lucky but me ass!!!! Rollo and the people that post here, thanks brothers!! Another guy that is unplugging and finally LIVING again. You guys set the foundation and I’m willing to do the hard work.

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[…] With the notable exceptions of natural born Alphas, I believe most men would overwhelmingly default to being compassionate, empathic souls, steeped in romantic notions of chivalry, dedication and honor. Whether this sentiment is the result of a genuine dedication to principle or inspired by a hope that women will appreciate his sacrifices to principle and reciprocate with her intimacy is really a Crisis of Motive. […]

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[…] that’s directly relatable to women’s arousal/sexual interests. I covered this in Crisis of Motive; men ostensibly lift weights for their own personal validation – they do it for them – but […]

Tim
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Tim
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Marcus666

July 18th, 2013 at 4:11 am

Nothing has changed much since then, except that I know now exactly why I don’t get laid.

————————————————–

Oof. That summed up a nagging feeling I’ve been having for a while. (Been reading TRM for a while now, and found this page by idly Googling “Giving up on game” or some such.

Right in the feels. :/

(Saying that, I still prefer the position I am than being some put-upon boyfriend or pussy-whipped husband. Being single is under-rated. Reaching the sweet spot in between is the tricky part)

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[…] can go back and debate the Crisis of Motive once again – who do you really do it for? – but in terms of Frame, even if you subscribe to a […]

rugby11ljh
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rugby11ljh
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Fitness fashion mental point of origin.

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[…] is a genuinely inspired passion if the end result is women’s affectations. I covered this in Crisis of Motive, but what exactly is a genuine motive in that sense? If the byproduct result of my genuine […]

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[…] effect of being an attractive trait to women that needs some more clarification. I covered this in Crisis of Motive, and unfortunately, it’s a line that’s subjective to the man who’s invested […]

MarquisDeStade
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MarquisDeStade
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To make a long story short, my wife left me 6 weeks ago for another man. We’d been together 8 years, 2 of them married. Since then, a friend expressively insisted that I check the Rational Man blog, which I started doing for the last two weeks. Apart from giving high praises to Rollo for this endeavor of his, I want to share the impact this had on my life in terms you will understand. Presently, my first priority is making sure I do what I want to do. “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.… Read more »

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[…] to seduction or to embracing femininity for a prospective man. This harkens back to my post Crisis of Motive, why do you do what you do? However, what motivation does even an average woman (HB5-6) have to […]

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[…] I mention this as a starting point because when you’re making the decision to reconstruct yourself you must ‘do it for you’. Once again, any real change always beggars the question about who you’re really changing for. Nothing is an act of unguided, unbiased, self-initiated change – there is always some ancillary influences as well as consequences. This is the crisis of motive. […]

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[…] women, and the personal impact of a woman’s life-long social investments comes down to a crisis of motive dilemma. Does a menopausal woman, whose sexual agency is well beyond her capacity to effectively […]

ollieoxenfree1
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My last relationship started the silent questions. I had been dating a psychologist, who at times was prone, to embellish her accomplishments. She was also an alcoholic and in dire financial straits. When I say alcoholic, I don’t mean a few too many after dinner. I mean vodka, neat, straight from the bottle. First thing in the morning. She was (and by extension me, were) in a bad way most days. You have to understand, these were the days when I was still King beta. My round table, filled with white knights. Ready to protect and serve. As hopeless as… Read more »

Rudd
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Rudd
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What made me change ? The ongoing cognitive dissonance of a guy who was always naturally red pill instinctively driven and the weird sensation of becoming a beta in marriage. TRP and in particular your writings struck an absolute chord that my instinct were always right and i let my frame and mental point of origin slip in marriage ….your writings reconfirmed to me that my gut was true all along, but i needed a kick of confirmation.

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