Crisis of Motive


I had an interesting conversation with a cocktail waitress recently about how she wore the sexy outfits she did because they reaffirmed who she was.

“I do it for me.”

“Really? Lingerie, high heels, push up bra, that’s all for you?”

“Of course. I’m my own woman.”

“So, it’s not about the attention and affirmation you get from the men around you.”

“Well, that’s nice, if it’s coming from the right kind of guy, but I don’t wear what I do for them.”

“So if I came over to your house unannounced at like, 4 in the afternoon, you’d be wearing all this while you were vacuuming the house and not in sweatpants and a t-shirt?”

“Well,, but that’s not the point, I’m more comfortable in sweats,..”

“I see.”

It was far too easy to box her into the corner she was painting herself into, but I wont be too hard on her since this crisis of motive is also found in men. I can’t recall how many times I’ve heard guys at Gold’s tell me the same thing as to why they workout.

“I do it for me! Yeah, of course, chicks check me out more now that I’ve dropped the fat and bulked up, but this is all for me man.”

I’ll admit, I was that guy at one time. For a guy it makes sense to cop the story of singularity of purpose since it implies that he’s his ‘own man’ and not improving himself to become more acceptable to the women he observably and admittedly wants to get with. This is the paradox of self-improvement – are you doing it for yourself or because you want to others to respond more positively to you? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both.

There are certainly many side benefits to bodybuilding – improved health, attitude, lower stress, life-preserving function that results from increased muscularity, etc. but the minute we drop ‘a better sex life’ into that equation then we have to qualify it all with the “I do it for me” standby; as if our motivating desire to get laid is any less important than all of that. I’ll tell you right now, with 25+ years of lifting on my record, while I enjoy a lower life/health insurance premium as a result, I enjoy sex far too much to ever let myself become a fat ass. I do it for me and I do it because Mrs. Tomassi (and other women) responds positively to it and I enjoy the results.

This is a fundamental question guys swallowing the red pill and adopting a new Game-aware life have to answer – who are you doing it for?

There are a lot of traps involved in answering this question; traps that other AFC crabs in the barrel will use to pull you back in, traps that will attempt to convince you that you’re ‘being someone you’re not‘ and traps that will flatter you for your insightful desire to improve yourself, but only insofar as it serves feminine purposes. This is a common tar pit for men on the edge of accepting Red Pill truth:

From the Unbearable Triteness of Hating:

16. Dancing Monkey Hate

Hater: Men who run game are just doing the bidding of women. Alphas don’t entertain women.

If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

Whether he was intending to or not, Roissy was of course responding to exactly this crisis of motive. I don’t specifically agree or disagree with all the tenets of men who identify as MGTOW (I understand the reasoning), but I must point out that, from what I read, the crux of their beliefs are rooted in this same motive crisis. Is what you do, who you are, what you believe, a genuine, organic result of your own decision making (doing it for you) or is all you are the result of a latent purpose to better please a woman (or the Feminine Imperative for that matter)?


Aunt Giggles had a post about a week ago lauding all the introspective men concerned with their own self-improvement. Bravo! Bravo introspective Beta, dig down deeper and embrace your inner white knight. While it may range between ego-flattering to self-evincing, true introspection is only useful in the light of why  you’re being introspective in the first place. You may get a pat on the back from the Feminine Imperative for introspectively aligning yourself with the Beta model it’s conditioned you for, or you may get a well needed cold bucket of Red Pill awareness splashed in your face as the result of your introspection, but the question is still who or what are you being introspective for?

With a crisis of motive, it’s very easy to not only cast doubt about the motives of others when they don’t agree with our own, but also to reaffirm our own faith in our own decision making. How many times have Game denialists said something like “those red pill guys are just misogynists, only interested in getting laid as much as possible”? This belief-disqualifier is based on the the presumption that sex is a red pill Man’s only, true, motivator – not himself, not for his own enlightenment, not of his own genuine volition. Red pill guys believe what they do to get laid and therefore dance to the tune women (or their sexual impulse) are playing for them. Distilled down to it’s base, the message is they aren’t acting as individual rational agents, but as robotic slaves beholden to external influences (in this case women or their sex drives). In other words, someone or something is controlling their decisions for them.

That’s some powerful affirmation for the one making accusations of disingenuousness, because it confirms for himself that not only is he a ‘genuine’ actor, but his insight must necessarily be more valid than the guy he’s judging. The problem with this, as I’m sure most are now aware, is that the accuser is already molded by outside influences himself. Thus, his motivation for accusation is suspect of a crisis of motive.

I understand this is some heady shit to take in, but I think it’s important to consider for guys on the cusp of Game-awareness, doubting their genuine want for changing themselves, as well as for guys falling back on motive crisis reasonings in order to justify why other men might disagree with them. I think an important question Men need to ask themselves is why am I changing my belief, my customs, my interpretations? It may be that it comes as a result of introspection, or a new awareness brought to them from an outside influence (the manosphere), but the answer to the question of who do you do it for is both yourself and the outside motivator.

So what made you change? Was it something I or another blogger wrote? Was it a traumatic experience that shocked you into awareness? Or were you just getting what you’d always gotten by doing what you’d always done?

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

102 comments on “Crisis of Motive

  1. Reading philosophy many years ago set me on the path of a certain kind of Red Pill awareness, thought not in dealing with women. That didn’t come until later when I started noticing their shenanigans myself, reinforced by what other guys my age told me. Still, it didn’t go deep enough, and I kind of lost interest because I was preoccupied with other things. I chose to detach and avoid instead of non-attach.

    Then, three years ago, when I wanted to start dating again, and felt confused as to why women were acting the way they were, I happened upon Roosh, et al., and started to follow the rabbit hole. Some of what I believed years ago was reconfirmed, but I wound up learning a lot more.

    My Red Pill therapy will be ongoing, but at least I have the basics down pat.

    And, yes, I do work out so that I can look good in clothes and distinguish myself from the fat slobs out there. 😉

  2. For me it was being linked to an article on Shark’s old blog “Solve My Girl Problems”. I read the first one and was dumbfounded. I proceeded to read every single article on the site that very day. It made so much sense, finally someone who laid out something that made sense of what I had been seeing all these years. Finally I could see how I related to women and what had worked for me by sheer happenstance and all those times my instincts were correct and I was oblivious or was working directly against them. It was my induction into the halls of men.

  3. What made me change was a “semi-traumatic” experience. Rejection lol. I took it very personally, almost too personally. Anyway, it was the 3rd week of class and this was the 1st time rejection really hit me.

    Notice what football coaches say about players (i.e Tim Tebow) all the time when they’re not good enough – “he’s such a nice guy.” I apparently wasn’t good enough for her and this is what I heard when she was telling me about how sweet I was and how we should be friends.

    I haven’t had to hear those things since I changed my attitude. I don’t know but I could definitely say this was for me. I’m kinda disillusioned with women – I’ll try out a few but I won’t spend any extended amount of time trying to do something for them. And besides, it didn’t work anyway when I tried (i.e going to the gym.)

  4. My change in perspective and attitude came through a divorce. While searching the internet to find out how this had happened to me, I came across Dalrock’s site and by extension, your site when I read your comments. Between The Rational Male and Dalrock, you guys SET.MY.MIND.ON.FIRE.! That first night read your blogs, I stayed up til 4am trying to absorb all I could, trying to make up for years of blue pill thinking that had gotten me to that point. I did not want anyone to put the fire out either. Never before had I heard any of the ideas you discussed. Terms such as SMV, AFC, Alpha, Beta, wtf, over? !! I was totally and securely plugged into the matrix. This experience has motivated me to become a red pill man who will ensure that he has a red pill son and a daughter who will understand both the good and bad of her nature as a woman. I’m doing things to get myself back into the SMP (going to the gym, teeth fixed, etc) in order to make my self more attractive to women. Anyone who doesn’t include making themselves attractive to the opposite sex is fooling themselves, unless of course, they’re cat ladies.

  5. Beautiful, insightful piece that packs some punch, Rollo, as per your standard work product.

    To answer your question about what made me change. Short answer is that I wanted to change my results, I wasn’t getting the net effect I wanted with women, though I was still reasonably successful with the ladies, though not a superstar.

    The full version, hell, it’s a longish story, but if you’re interested: I was reading seduction101 back in the mid-2000’s, though somehow was still blue-pill and somewhat into the new-age culture I learned enough game to get with a smokin’ hottie in that subculture who was also a bit BPD (surprise!), and who broke my heart badly via dumping me for a hypergamic move up.

    In the aftermath of that breakup, I swore off new age culture and embraced my scientific roots, and started studying up on evolution. The first inklings of evo-pysch started trickling in from mainstream sources–the Red Queen, I think was the first book I read on the subject. Then I dated another girl, who I thankfully avoided one-itis with, who was very very hypergamous, but also very honest and open about her sexual and romantic history. On a long road trip, I got her to spill her guts about all her hypergamic attempts to trade up, some that were successful, others not so much. I finally could see, with my own eyes and heart, in her and in her stories, the feminine imperative laid bare. It was a watershed moment.

    That experience opened my eyes to the truth, my “red pill moment,” and around that time, I discovered Heartiste’s work. The first post I read back in 2010 was Valentine’s Day Mascara, and soon I had devoured his whole archive, and then on to other bloggers including you. Roosh, and a few now-defunct blogs of note. From there, it was on.

    For the past couple years, I’ve placed a lot of emphasis on technique and basic theory, mostly just to satisfy that basic thirst for knowledge, and poon, of course. Once I got that handled and got into an MLTR situation, I began a much deeper set of inquiries, which is ongoing today, regarding, as you said: “Who am I doing this for?,”

    The answer to that question is an interesting internal/external bifurcation. I maintain my health, lift weights, eat a super nutritious diet, I do those things for me, because I”m passionate about them. (I’ve gained 25lbs of muscle since then & improved many biomarkers of health, none have gone backwards.) The spillover benefits are that it improves my SMV.

    But having some MGTOW tendencies from way back, having eschewed the corporate path, and scorned those who pursue money over all else and/or pursued wealth as a defining feature, I never concentrated on my career & making money. I was content to slide by on a low income, and was able to pull hotties without needing a fat stack. Keeping them, that was a different story.

    Today, I’m working diligently on improving my financial situation, and on a deeper level, cultivating my drive to achieve professionally and financially.

    I can say with certainty that I do these financial, external things MORE for others than for myself; primarily I do it to improve my SMV, since that’s really my main SMV weakness at this point. But on a deeper, yet profoundly interconnected level, I strive to better myself professionally and financially because, in my late 30’s, I’m now thinking about having kids, about having a family, and I want to provide for them and have a reasonably comfortable life, not sliding by on the minimum. I want to provide some modicum of a lifestyle for my family, or if that doesn’t pan out, (always have plans B, and maybe C &D) so that I can go full MGTOW if I so desire and go live in the mountains or on a remote beach somewhere and not worry about the rest of it. So it is still about me, but I’m also expanding my circle of influence to include more altruism, and the idea of leaving a legacy, both genetic and otherwise. Professionally, for me altruism is a strong source of value so long as it’s coupled with a good business sense. We’ll see where that goes.

  6. I’m no closer to landing myself a wife anytime soon. Red Pill has helped me understand the woman’s nature, both good and bad (but not in equal measures). It’s come to the point where I am beginning to discover and understand more about their nature in my everyday interactions with them. Things about them I hadn’t noticed are coming to the fore of my consciousness now. Everyday is a lesson in how to deal with and manage them as a proper man (not a half-arsed beta/gamma); and how to guard against their foibles and behaviour.

    All of these will eventually change my life in another direction, and regardlesss of whether or not I’ll marry a woman.

  7. Very good thoughts.

    Two people do exactly the same even for the same reason, to get the same result, but, with a different attitude.

    Two men are thirsty and so they walk down to a creek to drink some fresh water. Both are doing it because they are parched, both feel that need to survive.

    One man sees himself as being distinct, seperated from his surroundings. He walks to that creek, that part of nature, he takes what he needs for himself – that water becomes part of him, he made it to be part of him, yet he remains himself. He made it to be his. His attitude is to take what he needs but he remains a true individual, not wanting to dilute himself in an ocean but to become more distinct from others and spread that self in his surroundings. To have spirit.

    Another attitude is to become part of something else, to lose oneself in an ocean. To drink from that creek and let that water change oneself. To flow down that stream, becoming the vessel for someone else, for some other spirit. One doesn’t remember why he was drinking water from that creek and surrenders to forgetfulness.

    Both attitudes are a part of man.

    To crush all spirits – That’s what’s happening.
    Not all wars are fought with physical arms.

  8. Dissatisified with life, women, myself, everything. There’s the niggling feeling in the back of your head that the narrative doesn’t make sense at all.

    The red pill is enlightening in that it allows you to see the truth for what it is, and in doing so you can be satisfied that you have a great measure of control over your own destiny.

    I certainly have become more satisfied with who I am now, and who I want to be in the future.

    As the neediness disappears, opportunities present themselves.

  9. A friend of mine saw how my being my normal positive, super nice guy self was destroying the relationship I was in. He convinced me spend a lot of money to learn the basics of this realm from someone that I’ve gotten to know since then. It changed everything. As a bonus, living the habits that came from learning this stuff have improved every other area of life. The learning never stops. The more I practice living the habits, the more I am able to help others. What’s sad, however, is that too many men are addicted to being zealots in the religion of watching sports and news rather than investing in truth that makes all the difference and working out with weights. Vic says this about religion here “You can go to any Christian church on Mothers Day and they will praise all that is woman, go to a Christian Church on Fathers Day and you will get a lecture about how Men have screwed up and how they should act better. How many times do you think a Man will continue to go to that church before he A) Quits or Believes it and turns into an effete weakling doing the bidding of every woman he meets.” So he’s not into organized religion but he’s religious about his beer and his sports. I chose not to be that guy that’s glued in front of the television. Attraction matters in every area of life.

  10. I started to swallow the red pill because I didn’t get laid and I wanted to understand woman in order to get them. Wolfing that red pill an obvious consequence and was very, very hard. I was horrified by the things I discovered. Nothing has changed much since then, except that I know now exactly why I don’t get laid. Getting girls is outside your control zone. Understanding the nature of woman and social dynamics doesn’t make you attractive, it only gives you a unique view on the world and you are able to avoid the missiles they fire at you. What I found out was that guys who get girls are often the big losers in society since they are controlled 24/24 and they pay a huge price (financially and manhood) in order to get that pussy.

  11. Deep Strength: Enjoyed reading your comment. Looks like you are way ahead in your Red Pill journey, while I am possibly just getting started.

    Marcus666: If they can keep their women attracted and dominate them, they may lower the threat of paying the price financially and of their manhood. And I believe that knowing Game and the Red Pill will put the control of getting girls back on your turf.

  12. I was dicking around in the library at Uni during my freshman year and a girl passed by. She made eye contact with me that, even in my Blue-Pill state, I could tell was more than “just a passing glance”. And then the following thought popped into my head:

    “I wish I could read her mind to know what she was thinking at that particular moment”.

    So then I opened my browser and googled the phrase “How to read a woman’s mind”.

    Fuck you, PUA community. Fuck you so very hard for keeping me up till 5am, bouncing from one link to another, from one ebook to another, from one field pickup video to another. Fuck you for opening, nay, PRYING the hinges of my mind wide open and deluging it with information that, quite frankly, should be taught to every boy from the day he slides out of his mother’s womb. Fuck you for making me neglect my studies for the following two years after that fateful Google search, as I literally devoted every available resource, be it time or money, to improving my SMV. Fuck you for the weird, uncomprehending looks I got from my brothers and other males in my life, as I constantly preached to them the tenets of Game, frustrated that they couldn’t appreciate the fucking gems of knowledge I was handing out to them. Fuck you for the cynicism I gradually developed as I witnessed the true nature of females laid bare in front of me, everyday, everywhere I went. Fuck you for the jaw-dropping moments I experienced every time I told myself “there’s no fucking way this is ever going to work on any chick with even half a brain” –> and then it did. Every fucking time. Fuck you for the resentment I came to experience every time I saw an AFC beta bomb an approach or relationship, and then fuck you some more for the clarity with which I was able to dissect the underlying causes of said breakups. Fuck you for those frustrating moments when I tried to enlighten a fellow Male about the ways of Game, and he would seem to be making good progress, only to slide right the fuck back into the Matrix. Fuck you for the evil satisfaction I relished every time a female told me “God, you’re such an ASSHOLE….why do yo have to be so difficult?” Fuck you for my current hatred of the term “Nice Guy” in all it’s forms.

    Fuck you, and thank you.

  13. I am a bit confused by the supposed existence of the dichotomy in question. What can be more “for yourself” than getting a satisfying sexual life? How could the person´s sex drive be considered an “external influence” (here we are bordering at pure biological nonsense)?

    What intrigues me even more, is that “doing it to get the sex” should be “wrong” while “doing it for yourself” should be “right”. I see no wrong/right connotation in the matter. But I´ll try to play along.

    Here goes:
    The good prince decides to make himself more attractive for the sake of the improvement (it´s like getting rich but not for the money) and then he, what a surprise, benefits from it. Such as he gets to deflower the beautiful Cinderella.

    While the evil prince wants to deflower Cinderella from the start, so he improves himself and then they live happily ever after (or have fun till the morning, whichever they agree on).

    The only difference I can see between the characters is that the good prince is either not particularly bright (he did not know that improvment would increase chances of deflowering) or a hypocrite (he knew and desired it, but says he did it for him).

    Result: with either improved and recently satisfied prince, Cinderella is happy (no matter for how long) so if the whole Cinderella´s stepfamily plus the next kindgom´s virgin prince all yell that our hero (they´ll yell it whether he is good or bad) is a sex driven pig, he has no reasons to listen to them. He´s both improved (whatever that is supposed to mean) and happily coupled with Cinderella.

    The whole concept doesn´t seem to make much sense by itself, so it would appear to me that we are touching an attempt at covert manipulation by society or by an individual. It obviously works both sexes (as the women and men lie in the same way). So before I start explainig my motive to anyone, I ask myself: to whom would the questioning of my motive be convenient and how?

  14. “So what made you change? Was it something I or another blogger wrote? Was it a traumatic experience that shocked you into awareness? ”

    Weights because I got beat up as a kid and girls didn’t notice me. The side effect was greater confidence in myself and better health.

    Studying psychology, body language, trends with people…because I got dumped way to easily and I had no clue why. The side effect was I could relate to people better.

    Game because I had no idea how to socialize with anybody correctly…women especially. The side effect was I had greater confidence in myself, held myself accountable, and became a better person internally.

    The mission…because I had no purpose or goal in life outside of what I wanted to do as a career. Now my mission is to socialize with many different people on many different subjects. The side effect is I’m learning a lot about myself.

    To summarize…my motivation was for others and the side effect is how much I improved.

  15. I googled “When she disrespects you” after a girl I had been CHASING 3 years ago backed off.

    I should have backed off. I chased. Then I read about game.

    The changes were slow but determined.

    Lots and LOTS of mis-steps.

    The techniques, the blogs, the advice, the encouragement help. But nothing beats doing it.

    I’ve learned that you can say something beta in an ALPHA way and get away with it.

    You can say something ALPHA but if you’re inner game is off, you crash.

    My goal is finding the balance between jerk and alpha.

    Women want a “man” but do everything they can to derail you when you act confidently.

    Despite my incredible success with women, I just got dumped…by a girl who only 2 weeks ago told me she loved me.

    She dumped me by posting it on Facebook. It was a blow.

    I got angry. Then I settled down and began working on WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

    This is perhaps the biggest learning.

    We all fuck up, not everything goes to plan, you beta backslide, you act like too much of a jerk.

    This post has me thinking….WHO am I doing this for?

    I’m doing this for me. When I live for someone else, I’m forgetting myself.

    I realize that being called “Selfish” by a girl is one of the biggest compliments. Don’t blow that by denying it.

    I was on the bus today and saw a couple. The girl was quite attractive. She was with a herby guy. The way she was dressed, the way she lead him, the way she spoke slowly and lead him it was clear that this was a guy happy to be with her because that was the best he could do.

    The “savior schema” is something I’ve been reading about. Women in China where I live have an inflated sense of entitlement, This comes from the fact that societal pressures popular media and western concepts of feminism have created a whole society of betas.

    Every Chinese girl I’ve gone out with has a half-life of about 8 months. At that mark they suddenly start shit-testing and saying “it’s not fair it’s not fair….you are too controlling, you are too selfish”.

    Things end. Usually I dump them, but the script was flipped before I could.

    They always come back IF you move on or they think you’re moving on.

    Again, the mass of betas helps guys working on game to stand out. But the pressures beta-behavior creates by giving women an inflated sense of entitlement destroys the relationship.

  16. I’ll be straight up. I did it for my own personal vengeance.

    I nailed my wedding band to the wall and anytime i felt like quitting the workouts i started.. i’d stare at that fucking thing. Tis all i needed to endure.

    Yes, i’ve copped the line ‘I did it for me’.. because in truth i did. I did it soley for me, by me, with help from no one (except maybe Tony Horton). So the goal i reached was for me and no one could take it away from me.

    The side benefit of that was i knew the benefits of reaching that goal were making my ex mentally drool over me, and enjoy the newfound attention i was receiving.. good and bad.. but hey, you can’t control who objectifies you when you are dressing in a manner to show off your newly constructed physique. Something women seem to have a painful time understanding.

    When i dress when i go out, even tho i have a girlfriend, i always dress my best.. and no, i’m not doing it because i feel like wearing fancy clothes, i’m doing it to reaffirm my SMV status both to myself to see if my estimations are correct or crazy, and to her so she can feel her hypergamous nature sated.

  17. I started working out years ago because I had to: military service was closing in. As a result got from obese fatass to lean skinny guy. During the progress found real joy in working out and it became a hobby, then a lifestyle. Nowadays I am working out as a part of self-enlightenment, part of enjoyment, and part because of the benefits.

    In the game I got randomly from U21C video, I guess first video was from Manwhore. Got hooked in because realized I can increase my chances with women.

  18. “I’ve learned that you can say something beta in an ALPHA way and get away with it.”

    I call it…owning your weaknesses. There is no point in trying to eliminate every beta trait because every man has them. The point is to use them to your advantage.

  19. I think one of the most difficult things i have had to deal with when it comes to unplugging and seeing women for who they really are is reevaluating my motives for almost everything i do in life.. Am i buying this car to impress women subcounsciouly? Am i wearing this to impress women? why am i talking and acting like this? etc. If the behavior is effective in getting me laid, then it probably makes sense, but i think most men would be suprised at how much of the behavior they engage in doesn’t lead to more sex and simply plays strongly into the fem matrix.

    I’m really struggling with the dealing with the utter self centered side of women and knowing that everything they do and say has an underlying reason that is not upfront or honest. It’s a selfish reason aimed at obtaining their biological imperative of the highest status man they can obtain who will commit.

    What’s really shocking to me is how many women are utterly failing at that goal.

  20. Is motive for me? Or them? (‘them’ being the FI) That’s like asking which side of a coin holds the value. But I determine that am the “heads” side of the coin, iow, the author. They are the “tails” side. Sorta poetic, huh? Haha!

  21. For me it was a rejection from a girl I’d invested a lot of time and emotion in over several years. We weren’t even dating and she lived in Europe, we emailed/texted often, but only saw each other once in the two years after we initially met. I thought she was “the one” and it was only a matter of time until we could figure things out. I’d contemplated moving to see her. Twice, while I was visiting Poland, she asked me to visit her (in Lithuania). Both times I was ready to go, but once I contacted her, silence. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

    I was sitting in my apartment in Warsaw after finally realizing nothing would happen with her and Googled “how to go to a club alone” and turned up Roosh’s “Definitive Guide To Going Out Alone (a.k.a. Flying Solo)”, I read 100+ of his posts, dozens more from Heartiste and everything you wrote back to the beginning of your current blog. Shortly thereafter I met a group of 3 women at a club, practiced acting aloof and not giving straight answers to questions, teasing, etc. I spent the night with the hot stripper in the group. It’s funny to hear haters say that pua’s and alphas just mold themselves to attract women. The greatest lesson I’ve learned is not to invest so much in any one girl (as I once had, time and time again, always ending in failure) and now, more girls are attracted to me than I could ever imagine. As I become more confident and focused on my goals, women are attracted like a magnet, whether I like it or not. Your post “There is no One.” was probably the most impactful red-pill post I’ve ever read. Thank you.

  22. I’ll admit, I was that guy at one time. For a guy it makes sense to cop the story of singularity of purpose since it implies that he’s his ‘own man’ and not improving himself to become more acceptable to the women he observably and admittedly wants to get with. This is the paradox of self-improvement – are you doing it for yourself or because you want to others to respond more positively to you? It doesn’t have to be one or the other, it can be both.

    There are certainly many side benefits to bodybuilding – improved health, attitude, lower stress, life-preserving function that results from increased muscularity, etc. but the minute we drop ‘a better sex life’ into that equation then we have to qualify it all with the “I do it for me” standby; as if our motivating desire to get laid is any less important than all of that. I’ll tell you right now, with 25+ years of lifting on my record, while I enjoy a lower life/health insurance premium as a result, I enjoy sex far too much to ever let myself become a fat ass. I do it for me and I do it because Mrs. Tomassi (and other women) responds positively to it and I enjoy the results.

    I have no problem admitting that I work out in part because I want to be more attractive to women. Is it the only reason I work out? No, of course not. Good health is important, and I want to maintain a healthy weight. Plus I feel great after working out, and just feel great being in shape. But you know what also feels great? Getting hit on by 7s and 8s who admire your new lean physique and extra muscle mass.

  23. I can honestly say all the effort I put into improving myself is for me. And I believe it’s because all the concious effort I’ve put into self improvement has come after I started having success with women. Being a 6’2″ 170lb soccer player, I started weight training to challenge myself; to see what I could accomplish, if I could gain some mass. At the time I was in a LTR with a HB7 who is 8 years younger than I. Now I’ve shifted focus to my finances because I don’t want to be a salary man in to my 40s. If women respond well to it; great. If not; fuck em.

  24. Everything you do in life is for yourself. Kids, charity, sympathy, favors – all born from an inner impulse you seek to satiate…or not.

    The only truly altruistic act is to sacrifice your life so that someone else lives.

  25. So what made you change?

    I wouldn’t necessarily consider that I have changed as a deliberate act of course reversal. When I think back on how I used to think, I can’t find a moment when I suddenly realized, “oh yeah, I’m red pill now.” There was definitely, even until a few years ago, some significant blue-pill thinking still rattling around the brain. But the degree to which I had already become jaded on what was expected of me as a blue pill man was so great already that there wasn’t a high degree of slope along the journey.

    I came to red pill awareness by a thousand tiny cuts, not the deep stabs that divorced men endure, not the large cuts of undeserved shame that more courageous blue-pill men dating carouseling women get. It came in my thickening disdain for what passed for examples of masculinity on sitcoms over decades. It came in my abject horror at each new safety regulation imposed on schoolchildren by a society intolerant of teachable failure. It came in each and every no-win scenario crafted in my own imagination from what I saw happening in the dating world. It was injected into me each time I found a male near retirement and I examined the lifestyle they lived. It was deliciously sampled when each new food fear became a trendy thing for modern women to ask to avoid. It was sadly realized whenever I saw society tell someone with a terminal illness that they could only expected to try to live in spite of all dignity they might lose in the process. It was bluntly felt whenever Worf on Star Trek said, “It is a good day to die.”

    There should be a good day to die, there should be.a nobility in the world that supersedes human insistence on existence. The feminized societies we have will have none of this. Society seeks individual survival at any cost, and this grates against my very soul in thousands of tiny cuts.

  26. Regarding the haters saying: “you are becoming somewhere you were not” well, who we were was not giving us the success we thought it should so why not changing? .. Yes I was that, and now I improved myself and I am this … don’t see the problem. Life is made of evolving

    However it’s really hard to abandon who you were and transform yourself into a better version of you (gym, attitude regarding life, attitude regarding women, etc) so I understand people complaining and putting down others. We live in the era of effortless achievements and that’s why it’s easier to complain than to change

  27. After my divorce I went out and started learning and doing things to improve myself. Doing something different, to fill in the time so that I wasn’t sitting around moping uselessly and feeling sorry for myself. Yoga, dance, gym…

    One of the things that I did was start poking around on a psychology forum, in an effort to find about myself and others. (I’m an ISTJ, if that means much.) One of the guys on there saw that I was primed for the Red Pill and fed me Chateau Heartiste.

    Three years on, I’m still learning and I’m still digesting the Red Pill. Had some success, yet there doesn’t seem to be a lot of point to it with the quality of women that are out there.

    So, I find myself turning back to doing things for myself once more – rather than just chasing pussy. Vagina comes and vagina goes. In the end, I am the only one who is always going to be here.

  28. Ya, I’ve never really groked the dancing monkey thing. I figure the guys who espouse that line either have very low libido and so can not understand how men are motivated by a desire to fuck, or dislike their inner desires; they wish they didn’t wish to fuck.

    I want sex therefore I do what is required to get sex. Does that mean that I am dancing monkey for pussy? That I am a dancing monkey for my own desires? Or does it mean that *I* know what *I* want, and I go after it, directly, with no excuses. Without neurotic complaint or double think – just directly go after what I actually want, pragmatically. And enjoy doing it, and feel better for the process and the result.

    How many bifurcations and segments do you want to divide your “self” into? Me vs “my” body. Me vs id, superego and ego. Me vs my sex drive. Why not just have me? A holistic integral self? Why the need for all these divisions? Own it. Yes, you want to get fucked, and yes, there are risks and costs and rewards for doing so – it’s an imperfect world and some part of your “self” will have to be compromised so that another part gets it’s flavor of satisfaction.

    You can stroke your ego and that’s GOOD. You can transcend your ego and that’s another type of good. You can get laid and that’s good. You can go skiing or live as a beach bum and that’s good. But it’s not good to be puritanical about sex and deny it as something that makes us slaves to our desires. It has cost/benefits, like anything else. If you set it up well, the benefits greatly outweigh the costs, and BOTH your desire and the satisfying of the desires are good. Desire is not bad. It’s not you vs your desire. Own it – you ARE your desire. That’s you.

  29. Looking back it took a few sites and some real world experience for me to start to develop game awareness; the earliest site I can remember is Shark’s and the ones that tied it all together was this site and Neil Strauss’ The Game.

    I’ve asked myself this question more than once, but for me it is both for myself and the attraction of others, would be lying if I said it wasn’t.

    It’s knowing the effect I have on a woman, that seduction done right that plays a part in why I love Game so.

  30. To the MGTOWs who feel that sexual puritanism is a self discipline that leads to freedom from being under the control of their desires:

    Enjoying life as best as possible is the highest possible philosophical and ethical position. The buck has to stop somewhere – it must stop at the individual in his lifetime – otherwise he is just teaching everyone around him by example to NOT enjoy life, which is unethical and a boring drag and a waste of precious human birth.

    Not causing suffering to others is considered ethical, but that doesn’t go as far as it can. Alleviating suffering in others is considered even more ethical. But that’s not going far enough. Promoting pleasure in oneself and others is yet more ethical.

    Or if enjoyment is not your fundamental principle of life, what is? Raising GDP?

    Yes, we have to see the bigger picture and use all our faculties to maximize pleasure for the long term. If you re-read the post you’d see that strongly implied. But we don’t postpone eating the cookie for the sake of not eating cookies – we postpone eating it so that we can later eat more cookies.

    Life is about eating cookies, not postponement. It’s about maximizing our position to sustainably enjoy as much pleasure as possible.

  31. xsplat wrote:
    “Life is about eating cookies, not postponement. It’s about maximizing our position to sustainably enjoy as much pleasure as possible.”

    Would you think or feel it’s better to attract with or without intent?

    Is there a difference between

    trying to appeal to women by focusing on them, by learning about them and adapting to what you have learned – to make yourself attractive for them


    attracting without intent, focusing on your self and being awesome for your own sake and getting the attention of women without pursuing them in a direct manner?

    Similar, with pleasure – if you chase it actively without focusing on your self then it’s not the same thing – by far not. At least that’s my experience.

  32. Just to make my last post more clear – this is not about MGTOW or being a monk or whatever.

  33. Andrews, I’m of the opinion that knowing what you want is NOT an impediment to obtaining what you want.

    I know that women like to think that men are naturals, and if they smell a try hard it can be a turn off. I understand also that some men have therefore taken it upon themselves to deliberately be ignorant of their trying, so that they can’t possibly appear to be trying – they don’t even know that they are trying.

    But they ARE trying, whether they know it or not. I agree with Roissy and Rollo. We can’t help but do what we do in the service of raising our sexual market place value. Whether we admit it or not.

    Admitting it makes us more effective at it. Not less.

    This discussion has been had here on therationalmale blog before at In the comments Yohami and Matt twisted themselves in knots trying to avoid being conscious of working on yourself for the purpose of sex, and were forced into proposing the insane claim that knowledge of what is attractive to women and the pursuit of it would make a man less attractive to them than ignorance of it.

  34. Yes, a man wants women, it’s a need.

    A direct approach would be to take what you want by force.
    That’s active, aggressive, direct, in my book – masculine.

    Let’s go back in time.
    So a man takes the female he wants, the only requirement is that the other clan members, essentially his environment, accept his mating choice. The female can’t stop him – usually the man will be physically stronger.
    A woman has developed in a way which appeases her, in part, when she is taken by an aggressive man by force. That’s her psychology.

    So why do we even have this mating dance? Why did it develop at all? Why does a man have to be attractive to a female?

    I think it’s because it proved advantageous, genetically, to have a female filter for mating. So the tribes/cultures which allowed women a say in who was attractive and who wasn’t were more successful. ‘A say’ not ultimate sole control.

  35. In that scenario a man is active in his pursuit of women, he shows them that he’s interested but he’s attractive without intent, he attracts without intent.
    That is two different things.

    He knows what he wants and he pursues it. That’s the active part, taking it by ‘force’. But at the same time he passes her filter by being strong for his own sake and not by appealing to her directly. That would run completely counter to his active part, because appealing directly to her is feminine in essence “Look at me, how beautiful I am…”

    A feminine woman on the other hand shows her receptivity. “When he opens his trap, I shut it.” And attracts intentionally by hinting at her goods.

    Today we have a scenario where women are given a lot of control – the reason is mostly memetic engineering. In that scenario men aren’t active anymore, not only in mating but in their whole life. What is left is mock displays of aggressive behaviour and intentionally attracting – even the mock display of aggressive behaviour is about attracting with intent.

    That’s not satisfying to all men, hence the drop out of society or the adaption towards attracting with intent. Forced into man-whoredom.

    But there are natural opposing forces to that development.

    My three cents.

  36. I was half a red pill before. finding the manosphere did not change anything except that nagging feeling that I was swimming upstream.

    And the stream was on fire.

    And filled with icebergs at the same time.

    Finding the red pill just allowed me to articulate what I was feeling and why I was feeling it.

    I had already gotten my “oneitis” wife and did it my way which in no way reflects the beta orbiter, wear-her-down method. Still she acted in ways that made no sense, which I never stood for, and said things out of left field that had no basis. I though I was nuts or even a bad husband for not letting her get away with it, but I could not live with myself – or her for that matter – if I just let it go.

    So, the answer is….I do it because it is right. Not just for me, not just for society, but because it is right.

  37. Everything I do is for sex when you boil it down. Even if I “take a break” from women to work on myself, in the long run it’s for sex. But the pursuit of sex is for me. We’re all selfish in that sense. So you can either call it for procreation, or for personal happiness. It doesn’t matter so long as you don’t kid yourself. We’re born to pursue it, and old mother nature found a way to reward us for it chemically.

  38. So then after what seemed like a hell of an eternity being married to the biggest BPD woman in four state area, a woman so vicious my friends all called her “The Great White”, both in reference to her North Shore Long Island background and to the way she would leap out of the sea and devour baby seals, I decided I needed to make a severe lifestyle change, my own Eat, Pray, Love, Mark got his groove back sort of thing after being a husband in America.

    So given the particularly low spot I was at, I got a job jerking off elephants at a nickel a herd just to attempt, first, to regain my self respect.

    So I’ll never forget on the first day of work, the senior Elephant Jerker Offer, said to me, “Mark if you want to get good at this job of jerking off elephants and make some real money, like 20 or 30 cents a day, then learn to understand the elephants, watch what they do, and you can also learn some real life lessons here that will serve you well long after you go on to some other loftier job after being a low scum American husband. Something like jerking off Pygmies at a dollar a tribe.”

    So I watched the elephants and I started noticing that some of the elephant boys, most, never got any elephant action whatsoever, and then others, just a few, would just fucking clean up and had a veritable harem of elephant bitches.

    So most of the elephant boys would just sort of hang around for a long time then finally go over to some pair of girl elephants and say something like “Gee Dumballina, you look really hot today.”

    And the girl would say “I have a boyfriend.”

    And then the doofus boy boy would say “Jeez, maybe we can just be friends.” and girl elephant would say “Whatever!! Look I gotta go”

    Then those few elephants that were just constantly were rolling in elephant babes would go ever to the pair and he would talk to the lesser attractive of the pair first and seem to totally ignore the elephant hottie. He wouldn’t hang back like the other nerdy goofballs, but seemed to see them and approach within 3 seconds like it was some kind of rule or something.

    And he would just saunter over there like he owned the fucking place and say “Sorry I can only stay for a second. My friends and I were talking and I would like a elephant girl’s opinion. Which ‘never forgets’ better, girl elephants or boy elephants.”

    So then both elephant girls would do this little ear flip thing, a definite indicator-of-interest, and just swish those tails around like a propeller. And the whole time the boy elephant would mostly pay attention to the lesser attractive of the two girl elephants.

    So then he would look at the hot elephant babe and say, “you know you don’t really sweat a lot for a fat girl”

    And within a short period he would have her over near the fence, isolated from the herd, and be just fucking the bejezus out of her. And the motherfucker talked to the elephant bitch while he was fucking “Who’s your Jumbo now, bitch???”

    And then after she would say “Call me” and he would just saunter off and say “Whatever”.

    So they I thought I “Hey, there just might be something here. Maybe that just might work for men.”

    So anyone reading this that thinks this just might catch on, let me know. Maybe we can start a boot camp or something.

  39. I’ve never quite understood the antipathy between the MGTOW’ers and PUA’s. The differences between seem only to be choosing the different opportunities one sets up for oneself. For MGTOW’ers that might be more about working and making money than getting laid, for PUA’s that might be getting laid more than focusing on work. Both strategies seem to be about putting yourself first and making the most of professional and personal opportunities that come your way-often through your own initiative. I don’t understand why these strategies have to be exclusive. The real trick is to be able to manage both simultaneously. I’ll admit to not being as good at that balance as I want to be.

    The overarching connection between MGTOW’ers and PUA’s is being unrepentant about your own needs and desires. There’s nothing wrong with that either. After all no one is going look out for you other than you.

  40. I got cheated on.

    I knew about game and it had gotten me what I wanted in my 20s. However, I wanted to change and pulled a complete 180 in an effort to settle down so, no more game, right? I met a cool girl, but she turned into an overweight ballbuster. I went ahead and popped the question anyway, thinking that it was like that for everyone, and the bitch cheated on my soon after.


    I started lurking an infidelity forum and posted my story. It was helpful, but then I went out and met a couple of girls to help me deal with the feelings of inadequacy. They didn’t like that on the infidelity forum. They told me that my “revenge affairs” were wrong (OK), just as bad as my fiance’s betrayal (really?) or worse than my fiance’s betrayal (fucking what?)… and these were just the “waywards” lecturing me.

    I found the people on Talk About Marriage (TAM) to be more rooted, less new-agey and stuck around. They helped me realize that reconciliation with my fiance was, well, insane.

    I guess Athol Kay got his start there and I found him. The whole idea of applying game to marriage and LTR blew me away. It never occurred to me my ex’s ballbusting, infidelity and even weight gain could be partially attributable to me giving up game as soon as we got serious.

    She was also batshit, but the concept remains valid.

    From there I found all the other blogs and read Roissy simply because he is (they are) a content machine. However, there was a post there recently that I think jumped the shark, so, I try to take the best from all the blogs and leave the over-extension behind.

    I’ve never found getting laid very hard, so I reject the notion that alpha = getting pussy. There wouldn’t be much room for improvement if that were what it was all about. I am seeking to be a more classically and scientifically-defined alpha, or a man who is socially dominant, and I have a much longer way to go on that front… but more to strive for.

    But I also aim to completely resist what you all refer to as backsliding in my burgeoning LTR. I am doing all this for me, but of course I’m also doing it for the women… not specifically my current girlfriend, but women in general. My current GF just happens to be the one benefiting from that.

    Thanks to all of you.

  41. The societal pressues are enormous for a guy conform to an AFC mind-set of apologizing, treating women like princesses, giving up your power, succumbing to guilt trips.

    Adopting an attitude of appeasement: “Oh, I’m sorry” are too easy.

    But who are you doing THAT for?

    Am I adopting game for my own self-improvement or to impress girls?

    An illustration, I was feeling down and lacking any motivation wanting to feel sorry for myself “remembering the good times” after my break-up.

    But i l ploughed on. I went out to a party. I forced myself to pretend everything was ok.

    I opened and gamed 3 girls and number-closed 1 in her 20’s.

    If I had to pick one element of game that for me is a differentiator, it’s the “Abundance mentality”.

  42. I sold myself wholesale to the motive. The manosphere exposed some dark and uncomfortable truths about myself that I was incapable to see at the time but willing to finally accept. Although I’m only two years in, it still makes me laugh when I think about how easily manipulable my belief system was/is. The consistent influx of new information overloaded my senses and I had little thought power left to analyse why I was turning my entire life around. Only until recently do I feel like I’ve reached a balance, and an awareness of what I truly want and why I want it.

    This post was perfectly timed. I could feel myself becoming that guy who did things for no reason other than self-amusment. I find it quite interesting how easy it is to deceive yourself, even when your consciously trying not to. After all the changes, and everything I’ve been through, my motives have remained relatively unchanged, the only thing that changed was my perception of them.

    Unfortunately I made some irreparable decisions during this initial stage of unplugging, but you never fully know something until you experience it.

  43. Ok, Rollo.

    This is a serious comment. Almost all of my others for a while have been joking shit. And for the past months there has been a distraction in my life that has kept me from my mission in life of researching shit in the manosphere to bug the fuck of people with facts from studies.

    So I did go through that Testosterone phase and did succeed in bugging the fuck of of people like a broken record.

    And many people probably chuckled and guffawed at my findings but I still stand by them.

    And the essence of it was that Testosterone is King.

    And I present as Exhibit A, Roosh V.

    And I will toss Rollo in there as Exhibit B. (yes, all the psychological knowledge is valuable, but Mrs Rollo does not really give about it compared to having Mr Rollo able to post a shirtless photo in the internet)

    And in Men, muscles are the first visual signal that the man has him some Testosterone.

    So in my Signaling Theory research, Testosterone was key in animals. because It produced these “high cost” signals like plumage, size, masculine mating calls, and all that costed the animal both physical assets like nutrition, exposed the animal to predators,and competitors, but also, and primarily, it sucked assets and resources from the animal’s immune system.

    And these signals were indication of the most important asset that a father could pass to his offspring, A ROBUST IMMUNE SYSTEM TO DEFEAT OR RESIST THE PARASITE LOAD OR MICROBIAL THREATS THE WORLD CONTAINS IN LARGER NUMBERS THAN ANY OTHER THREAT.

    And that variability found in the male of the species is exactly the remain that male-female sex exists in order to prevent the animal from being dragged into an evolutionary dead end that lead to extinction. And this is a subconscious choice on the part of the animal.


    So then when you shift over into Humans, all this idea is thrown right out the window and Signaling Theory immediately shunts over to talk of SOCIAL SIGNALS OF FITNESS, a Rolex watch, a Porsche, all “high cost” signals in their own right. But these are “thought” to be the way that human females gauge the fitness of males.

    Until the Mansphere.

    And the manosphere and particularly this blog, Rational Male, continues to point out the INCONVENIENT TRUTH, that hey, wait a minute, Hypergamy doesn’t care if you have a Rolex. Maybe for a short term mating schedule fling, maybe even in consideration of Long Term Provisioning aspects.

    But not when Girlfriend is ovulating. She wants those “Good Genes” far far more than she wants those “Good Father” genes.

    ‘Cause when Girlfriend is Locked and Loaded (during ovulation for you newbies) she tends to crave, like the FAT KID craves cake, those masculine signals of T, baby. Muscles, Arrogance, Confrontational, UNFUCKINGFAITHFUL, Stupid, far more than any, and when I say “any”, let me emphasis in CAPITAL CAPITALS, the ANY part.

    And she will crawl over 50 Rolex wearing, Porsche Driving Beta Provider Doctors to get fucked by a thug in the bathroom of a disco.

    Because more than Princess wants shopping trips, spa visits, Lexus status, Louboutin shoes with red soles to let all the other bitches know that she is higher up in the Matrix than those “other bitches”, babygirl wants T.

    And T is Key,

    So when all ya’ll hem and haw, yammer, and go on about why ya’ll Game, with each of you having your own 50 Shades of Game reason for doing so, remember this one little thingy.

    The reason for any of your success is T.

    So Rollo you speak of lifting weights and the health benefits of it.

    The benefit, the prime benefit, the reason is EXHIBIT 1, EXHIBIT 1A, and EXHIBIT 1B in almost every writers list of successful factors in his Game odyssey and development is because it is the most important thing.

    If a man in a relationship did nothing else, no other practices listed in night game, day game, relationship game, Athol Kay MAP game, caveman game, Go 90 Game, etc etc etc ….

    if he lifts weights then he comes out ahead of someone that implements everything else without lifting weights.

    Because when the astute Google searcher seaches for the phrase “Building Testosterone”, the number one result returned is

    Lift Heavy Weight.

    Now Boy Scouts, mark this next phrase. If there is any one thing that I have leairned in the Manosphere and from studying the science surrounding our little philosophy that we follow, it is the following, and on this one point I stand most defiant in that “Stands with Fists” stance ready to, not only debate, but go to blows to defend it:

    Social success is most dependent on hormones.. Personality is plastic and is extremely affected both, for the good, and for the bad, by changes to the the Endocrine System.. Actions taken by men to increase the level of testosterone in their bodies which include PHYSICAL LABOR, COMPETITION, RISK WITH SUCCESS, CONFRONTATION, all increase, by degrees, the level of TESTOSTERONE in the male body. And over time, these changes in the level of Testosterone will affect changes in the personality that are most conducive to social and sexual success in men.

    I refer back to my first Exhibit, Rooshv. If you have read and followed Roosh for the past years, if you seen photos of him from back then to today, if you are aware of his sexual success, you can state some things:

    One, he has gotten better looking.

    Two, he has changed from a slightly awkward lab rat to a polished individual capable of turning even a hostile TV audience over to his side by his charm, wit, and confidence.

    Three, his internet success continues to grow, and his writing continues to improve.

    And Four, the level of women he has sex with has increased and increased to the point to where “there are no more mountains to climb” and in fact, he is growing bored with the pursuit.

    And almost in every facet of his life, he undertakes actions that build testosterone. He lifts religiously, heavy weight. He takes risks. Just the simple act of bucking up his courage to walk across the room in a social setting to approach a woman is a risk, a psychological threat that is deep seated in all of us that can turn the bravest of men in other circumstances into a bowl of jello.

    And he wins, and he has sustained the benefits of what is called the Winner Effect.

    I certainly do not have the space in a comment to list all the manosphere anecdotes and reasons why T is key, and when you accept this single fact and take almost any story, any manosphere tenet, and deconstruct it, it will always come back to T.

    So however you got here, whatever reasons you follow our philosophies, whatever personal, social, cultural benefits you wish to gain for yourself and for men.

    Remember this one fact

    T is Key. Everything you do to increase it, to study how to increase it, to live in ways you do increase it, pushes you one step closer to congruence, a congruence that is recognized not only by women but also by men. “Fake it till you make it” is that journey of building T until you have actual physical congruence.

    There is a PC statement about Game writing that “It educates men about the nature of attraction to assist them in achieving their relationship goals.”

    So whether your goal is a sound relationship, pump and dumps, notches, to confront, overcome, and vanquish feminism, or world domination when you become Emperor of the World with a harem of 5000 concubines,

    Start with T, then go from there.

  44. To say that it does not occur to me that women will like me more if i continue working out and stay in shape would be a lie. but to say that i do it specifically for that purpose is too much of a generalization.

    I work out for self development. i do it to expand my capabilities and influence in my world. it gives me more physical influence in the form of physical strength, i will live longer and stay capable longer, my mind will be more capable AND it expands my capabilities with the ladies, an important part of life for a man.

    like i said, i would be a liar if i said that poon wasnt a motivation. but i will not fall into the trap of saying that it is THE motivation. to expand my capacity, women being one of those.

  45. Rollo, as someone who’s been lifting a while, I’m sure you can attest to the fact that the motivations behind an action change the further you go down a path. Sure, a guy who starts lifting might initially be doing it to boost sex appeal, gain confidence, and be healthier. There comes a time, though, where attractiveness to women fades as a motivator and you have find out what lifting really means to you. Unless a woman is a competitive lifter, she won’t understand the difference in discipline and effort that it takes to get a 225 bench to a 405 bench. She won’t care whether your single digit body fat came from dozens of brutal metcons and strict dieting or from steroids. How you pursue your goals is something you have to decide for yourself. So what might start out as an attempt to appeal to women ends up as individualized self improvement. I would venture to say that much of red pill awareness is the same way. What starts out as a visceral reaction to a paradigm shift ends up as something much more. Life after the red pill, and life in general, has the potential to be an empty hole. Continual self improvement is one way towards a purpose in life. Ultimately, a man should end up doing everything for because it further enriches his life. You may start out learning game to get girls, but as your success with women increases, you realize what a small part of life game is. You start looking to other more meaningful areas of your life where you can experience success and lasting fulfillment. If something is making your time on this earth a happier, richer, and more meaningful experience to you, who the fuck cares what your motivations are? A man should be enjoying the evolution of himself, not obsessing over whether he’s alpha or beta or how his SMV value is correlated with blah blah blah

  46. I’m just going to drop a copy of a relevant blog post here:

    The big picture is that people want to be happy, and that the big picture is exactly this and none other than this “we have to see the bigger picture and use all our faculties to maximize pleasure for the long term.”

    This means that we agree that there are many different avenues and ways that our competing internal interests find happiness and satisfaction. We want cookies, and we want to look good in the mirror. We want to be rich in cookies, and we get pleasure from sharing cookies. Therefore we need strategies to take into account all these competing interests, and find the best strategic balance. Eat not too many cookies, AND not too little cookies. In order to maximize happiness we have to also indulge in just the right amount of cookies. The desire for cookies and the enjoyment of cookies is a GOOD thing that increases life satisfaction.

    We make sacrifices so that we can earn the money to pay for the cookies, just like we make sacrifices so that we can fuck. That’s nothing to do with being a dancing monkey for our desires, or a being a dancing monkey for cookies, it’s about good life strategy for leading a good fulfilling human life.

    As has been mentioned, there is no cohesive MGTOW set of values, however when I make sweeping generalizations such as “MGTOWs are puritans at war with their own desires”, I do it for a reason. Regardless of what any standardized MGTOW philosophy is makes no bearing on my statement. Guys who take the view mentioned in the first sentence of my last MGTOW hit job post, the view that seeking sex is making oneself into a dancing monkey and being under the thumb of uncontrolled desires have a FUCKED UP FRAME OF REFERENCE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ALIVE AS A HUMAN BEING. That’s pretty important. The puritan attitude of not indulging becomes an obsession with control, and all of the important values of life get turned exactly on their heads.

    MGTOW guys, regardless of MGTOW philosophy, often espouse this puritan fucked up view, and are LIVING LIFE WRONG. It’s not just about seeking sex or not. It’s the very relationship to desire that is fucked up.

    People who read that MGTOW article got confused as to what it was about, and I’ll remind them now; it was about the first sentence:

    I’ve never really groked the MGTOW stance that working to raise SMV and be good at seduction is working to be a dancing monkey in the service of pussy.

    Which brings us back to:

    “But we don’t postpone eating the cookie for the sake of not eating cookies – we postpone eating it so that we can later eat more cookies.”

    Some people get so used to the idea of postponing pleasure for the sake of a better future, that they start to mistake the very act of not indulging with a good life strategy, in and of itself.

    That’s fucked up.

    Just like postponing reward indefinitely, into some non existent afterlife is fucked up.

    Back again to the fundamental principles – suffering and happiness. Without these principles there is no MEANING in life, what so ever. There is no basis for ethics. There is nothing but robotic, nihilistic calculation. Without including our subjective wellbeing, we are just atoms bouncing around, and that means nothing. Meaning means something because it matters to someone – it’s subjective. We need pleasure and pain as the basis of any philosophy.

    And so there is only one conclusion. Maximizing overall pleasure and avoiding overall pain.

    The fact that guys who identify as MGTOW wanted to read that blog post as being about whether or not the pursuit of sex is or is not the only avenue towards happiness points to how invested their egos are in protecting themselves from being seen as lesser beings for avoiding the pursuit of sex. Reread that first sentence if you still find yourself wanting to frame the argument that way.

    I’ve never really groked the MGTOW stance that working to raise SMV and be good at seduction is working to be a dancing monkey in the service of pussy.

    The point I’m making is of fundamental importance.

  47. I was twenty, dating a lingerie model; we were in a happening bar. She was off with her friends. I was with my friends. My boys were carousing. I was sticking close to the bar out of “fidelity.” Then I saw it: “Damn, look at all of this social interaction happening right in front of my face! I’m going to dive into the middle of this mosh pit and see what happens!” Thus began my “red pill” journey… a long journey of many females… many LTRs… and many, MANY fuck ups. Observations and actions and reactions and recalibrations and recalibrations, repeated, ad nausem—in short, the scientific method. A decade later the whole game community exploded onto the scene. “What!? These fuckers are distilling this shit down to a reproducible science!?” Ten years of trial and error were instantaneously collapsed… among the brethren I should have been hanging with from day one… showing me what I had been doing right, and WRONG. The rest was history. I found the for-profit sphere of PUA, and elected NO FUCKING WAY AM I GIVING THESE CLOWNS MY MONEY… I get laid just fine. And then I found the NON-profit elucidators of game, and felt like, “ok, here are the guys that I would normally hang with on a weekend night (NOT trying to squeeze money from me). I was shocked that these guys existed. For what it’s worth, from someone who’s been there and done that, I believe that Rollo’s motives are pure, and I appreciate his commentary. For me, personally, it filled in a lot of gaps that I was missing, previously.

    I respect all of you who deal in rationalism and logic, as opposed to emotionally-driven argument (lol), whether I agree with your position or not. Peace.

  48. Rollo here is a chip shot post for you. There has been a blast of articles out about interpretations of this study is Journal of Communication about Long Distance Relationships.

    The article is a whole 3 pages long, so definitely it “must” be an exhaustive work on the subject.

    Here is USA Today article about it.

    And Time article about it.

    I think the Time piece, written by Belinda something or other, is very hamster driven.

    And I think both go against the idea of Buffers.

    So you should be able to toss something together quickly to bash this story as MSM idealization. I think women, more than men, do tend to have some brush with alpha, then paint this idea of a big deal relationship. The guy can toss some minutes at her and she thinks the relationship is a big deal. And the Notre Dame Linebacker is an example of how guys can hide behind them.

    This study was about spouses. And the Time article mentioned to high rate of breakup for return Iraq soldiers.

    So I would think there is lots of stuff for you to wade into her and get an easy post.

  49. Technically we do everything to please ourselves, since we are goal oriented beings.

    It’s a standard female complaint that many so-called “nice guys” are just acting “nice” to get sex. It’s a standard liberal complaint that aggressive businessmen serve customer needs only in order to gain profit.

    Thus there seems to be a need to examine the “purity” of everyone’s motivations. Many people go to great efforts to expose the underlying “impurity” of the motivations of others.

    Since we will continue to be goal oriented and since we will continue to be scrutinized in regard to our motivational purity, it is therefore important to be able to project the best (if false) motivations. Hence the reason most of us lie about our motivations — it’s all part of the game.

  50. “Hence the reason most of us lie about our motivations — it’s all part of the game.”

    Rollo has mentioned the theory that women are incapable of introspection because being aware of their dual mating strategy would leave them more open to being outed and rejected.

    Apparently the same thing goes on for some men. They are not able to know of their own motivations, lest the appear to women as try hards.

  51. I think majority of you guys miss the problem.
    Let us have a guy who is addicted to cocain, or cigarettes, or whatever.

    He works very hard to obtain his daily dose. Now, does he do that ‘for himself’, or is he just a slave to the addiction, a puppet?

    In certain sense, of course he does it ‘for himself’ – without his daily dose, he will feel like shit; if he succeeds in jumping through the hoops to obtain it, he will feel good.If all you look for is how he feels, whether he satisfied his ‘needs’, what he does make perfect sense.

    But the big question is – woudln’t he be better off if he got rid of his addiction altogether? Is he not a slave to his pleasure, not being able to let go of it, having to work hard to obtain things he doesn’t really need?

    This is preciselly the problem of ‘the game’. You work hard just to satisfy the females so they will satisfy you. Now is this a rational decision, or are you just addicted to your sexual urge (amplified by the females themselves)? Could you stop at once and do something else?

    One man wrote “Anyone who is a slave to his penis, is a slave of woman”.

  52. Dr. Bombay, if you take that same principle and apply it broadly your goal in life will to be an anhedonic drone.

    We seek pleasure, and that is good.

    You are confusing the problem being seeking and attaining pleasure, and ignoring the cost/benefits of each pleasure. Heroin has huge costs. If it only provided pleasurable benefits then it would be fine.

    A person can structure their life such that the pleasures of women and sex outweighs the costs. People do that, you know.

    Your entire attitude of viewing desire as pathological and slavery is FUCKED UP.

  53. ^^^^^^^^^^^

    Sex is one of the strongest biomechanical urge that a man feels in his entire life. The only ones that trump it are food and immediate physical safety. It is a primal prime directive. You can’t compare sex to hardcore drugs since it’s a fundamental natural need to be satiated whereas the human body doesn’t have a natural drug requirement.

  54. This blog was what finally made me accept the red pill. I had read the ladder theory and agreed with it but it never really sank in.The style of writing on this blog was able to clearly explain the nature of women and with every post I read there was a corresponding life experience to match it. I was able to see why my mother could abandon her family and not feel an ounce of regret. I could go over past relationships and dates and pinpoint what I did to lose the initial attraction a woman had for me.and why she was attracted in the first place. I stumbled onto this blog shortly after having train-wrecked with my “ideal” girl. She was a 9 christian “good girl” that actually went after me initially and it freaked me out because she met me at my lowest. We had a college course together that I would skip most days or show up drunk/high. This girl would take notes for me, cheat on tests for me, and even buy me food. Then I decided to take her on a date. As soon as I went from the fuck-up bad-boy to the boring nice guy her vagina dried up so fast it was ridiculous; I could actually see the disappointment in her eyes. I must say that although I have accepted the nature of women I still haven’t got to the point that it doesn’t bother me and it is hard not feel nihilistic. At first learning about game motivated me to improve myself but at times it can seem meaningless; growing pains I guess.

    I’m struggling with the idea that game is only efficient for 10% of men. If you can become a top 10% man then life will be good. So that leaves 90% of men up shit creek without a paddle. At what point does one do the MGTOW thing and just fuck escorts to save money(especially if your time is valuable to you)? I’d really like to get some opinions on this from guys that are successful using game and guys that are less successful. What is you’re notch count and how much did you center you’re life around getting pussy? Looking back was it worth it?

    Just a young guy trying figure out my path and any insights you may have would be appreciated. Not interested in a lecture on morality though, please keep it rational.

  55. I can see the logic. Guys who can’t get what they want want to stop wanting it, because wanting something without getting it is painful. It’s one tactic to take.

    It’s not the best tactic.

    A better tactic includes BOTH the emotional regulation of lowering expectations and being satisfied with what is attainable (limiting desires), AND working to attain what is currently unattainable (becoming a better, more attractive man).

    Having the philosophy that desire itself is the problem is shooting yourself in the foot, all in the name of ego protection. “I’m fine just the way I am – I don’t need no stinking pussy!”

    What ever happened to good old fashioned ambition? Or is that not politically correct unless the ambition is approved by the MGTOW guys as female free? No, for them motivation for anything must come from some impossibly pure fictitious nebulous concept of “freedom”.

  56. @xsplat

    Certainly have no interest in boycotting women or giving up on self improvement. Just as you point out the ego protection of extremist MGTOW guys I am wondering if some game advocates are protecting their own egos by completely shunning MGTOW ideas. For example, say a man is a 5 and with hard work can improve himself to become a 7; should that man never/rarely get to fuck a 9 because he can’t ever reach her level or should he embrace some MGTOW philosophy and call up an escort for an hour of fun every now and then? Or does that somehow not count because everything must come from some impossibly pure fictitious nebulous concept of “earning it”.

    I guess what I am thinking is that a man must come to terms with his desire and his limitations and I believe that is what you are trying to communicate as well. I think we only differ on the idea that all MGTOW philosophy is ridiculous.

  57. Ryry, we share the same concept of cost benefit. I don’t think all MGTOW philosophies are ridiculous, and some writing from guys who identify as MGTOW is great. For instance the guy who coined the term has a great insightful blog over at

    It’s just that it appears that most guys who self identify as MGTOW are not insightful and wise, but are fucked up. It’s only the fucked up ideas that I speak out against. Rollos post here is about one such fucked up idea that men who identify as MGTOW talk about. It’s stupid and harmful to view desire as slavery.

  58. @xsplat

    I have to agree many MGTOW advocates seem to take things to far and desire for women is not slavery. I’ll check out that blog, thanks.

  59. We all have needs, desires. We are all ‘slaves’ to those needs more or less – that’s life.

    How we approach that essential force of life is different.

    For example –

    A buddhist will try to minimize his needs – the goal is to have no needs. His level of activity will reach zero – that would be his ideal state. No suffering and also no pleasure. This can be achieved by cutting off the passions, the body – focusing his thoughts on the conscious, a meditation.

    No passions; focused on the conscious, the mind itself with the goal to reduce activity.

    A hedonist will use his rational capabilities, his reasoning skills, to fulfil his passions. He chooses to prioritize his passions and so his reasoning is serving his passions.

    I desire this. -> What do I have to do to get it?

    There is also an avenue where a man recognizes his passions – knows what they are but has a reign over them. This is not about denial.

    One way to look at it is to imagine passions to be the feminine part of a psyche. As in the outside world, a good relationship is when a man leads and his woman follows. There is no disrespect in this. Good leadership is tough to bring about and requires a lot of self-discipline.

    Not denying it but having a reign over them. Difficult because it require constant effort and readjustments.

  60. xplat said

    “A better tactic includes BOTH the emotional regulation of lowering expectations and being satisfied with what is attainable (limiting desires), AND working to attain what is currently unattainable (becoming a better, more attractive man).”

    Good comment & how I’ve lived my life so far. And I’m catching up to Minter in years.

    Do the best you can now and work to improve so you have a better future.

    Due to age, my SMV isn’t very high so the odds of getting with a 22 year old super-model are remote.

    But take the 25 year old waitress, the 30 year old admin assistant, the 35 year old accountant; all whom range from 5-7 in looks. The odds with them are pretty good. In some cases they throw themselves at me (but they must be slender or they are invisible).

    Nevertheless, I continue to lift and lose blubber. I continue to improve my career. I’m planning on learning to salsa dance. I continue to study game concepts to improve my charisma. I’ve improved my wardrobe.

    I’ve improved. Now the 20 year old at the coffee shop eyes light up when I flirt with her. Her 18 year old room mate has gotten into it as well.

    And why spend the effort? To make my future better than what I believe it will be if I don’t change.

  61. There is a little too much reductionism in this comment section for my liking. For example, the idea that we can just look at things ‘rationally’ while ignoring moral implications is a fantasy at best. Also, self interest is not the same as ‘selfish’. We can act in our self interest in a way that benefits others as well as ourselves.

    Claiming that self interest is the dominant determinant of human behaviour is not an argument that holds up to close scrutiny, unless you are arguing that the reason this is so is because humans are (rational?) agents that continue to derive benefits from actions they initiate or partake in, regardless of whether they intend to benefit from them or not; but that’s really no more insightful than saying that I will continue to derive benefit from actions i take in life because i’m alive and not dead. Once we have established a ‘baseline’, we have to move beyond it and analyze the problem in terms of degrees using moral reasoning. i.e some behaviours are less ‘selfish’ than others. I’ve noticed that Americans in particular tend to ignore this second step after they have decided that all behaviour is based on self interest. It’s an extreme relativistic view that justifies much of what goes on in the culture–including the functioning of the general marketplace–but to outsiders it just seems pointlessly egoistic and crude.

    As for the crisis of motivation outlined by Rollo, humans aren’t an island–we do not exist in isolation–we have social obligations–therefore much of what we do is for others. i.e to fit into society. and that includes the way we dress and present ourselves to the outside world. Again, it’s a question of degrees. Some people are more concerned with it than others, so they wear the latest clothes, get the most fashionable hairstyles, while some of us are merely content while making less popular, but more personally satisfying, choices.

    I will admit wholeheartedly that my decision to start dressing more stylishly has a LOT to do with how i am perceived by the opposite sex, but it also helps me get on in my career, so there is a dual motive. I also like to dress this way too, and felt that for years i was merely avoiding it because i wanted to ‘hide’. Lack of confidence was the issue for years, and thanks to the Manosphere, i slowly regained it.

  62. I agree with Mark that T is huge. Intimately linked to self-concept.

    If you think yourself a loser, your T levels will be suppressed. If you follow proven steps to raise it, your self-concept should improve. You’re back in your own corner, you’re fighting back against a world that wants to extinguish your spirit.

    Up to a point. I DON’T think it’s the be-all/end-all, or a case of more-is-better with no ceiling to it. I DO believe it’s a great starting point, especially for those who find themselves at a disadvantage.

    BUT there are many, many “swole” guys out there, both juiced and natural, who don’t do well with women. See, so many guys have turned to lifting – it has become so ubiquitous – that it’s now just one box of many to tick. A prerequisite.

    Go to any fiscally dense urban area and you’ll see lots of guys who clearly work out regularly, and are clearly proud of themselves. You can tell who’s made it a crutch for their personality. Women can, too.

    As far as I’m concerned, it mostly just makes for a lot of boring, annoying scenes. I actually believe a lot of the clubby women around those scenes have relatively high-T, too (for women). Just a bunch of people trying to show off and intimidate one another. Lekking.

    Interesting podcast here:

    Act 1: a guy whose T dropped to zero describes how it felt

    Act 2: a woman who decided to be a man describes how it felt to be on as much T as two high-T men

    Act 3: the staff gets tested for T and the highest scorer is a gay guy

  63. I found the manosphere when I had googled ‘Tucker Max Book Review’ and the first site that came up was Freedom 25. I bought his little ebook Freedom 25 and gave it a read. First time I ever read about the ‘Eat Prey Love’ mentality.

    At that same time, I had just recently read ‘The Game,’ a completely unrelated book recommendation (the friend who reccomended it actually told me he thought it was stupid).

    Once I found out the manosphere and the game were related, I couldn’t help but delve into more reading. I spent a full day reading this site, CH, and Freshflyandyoung. Then I spent hours per night reading more of it.

    Not only did the information explain just about all of the girls I had ever been able to pick up and hook up with; it also explained in great detail why I had been able to land and make a girl completely fall in love with me whose SMV was more than mine at the time.

    I had also been living abroad at the time…for 2 years…in a country where gender roles were worlds apart from what they are in the U.S. I had even begun writing a book on the very concept of maleness and masculinity. I was 60 pages done with the book when I found the sphere…and then discovered that all of the answers I was looking for, basically, were here. Basically a book I was trying to write…was already fucking written. Talk about a goddamn coincidence.

    Where am I with the red pill right now? Halfway there, I’d guess. I’m in an LTR with a girl who is about as redpill as they come in the U.S…but you know, I’m 26. And knowing about the game at this age makes you want to use it.

    It’s affected me in other ways though. My “secure” job as a high school teacher? Quit that. Made 3x as much money this summer doing something else. I’m a Robert Greene fan, and am looking at making my skills into something where you don’t get paid by the state…or by the hour.

  64. Andrews wrote There is also an avenue where a man recognizes his passions – knows what they are but has a reign over them. This is not about denial.

    One way to look at it is to imagine passions to be the feminine part of a psyche. As in the outside world, a good relationship is when a man leads and his woman follows. There is no disrespect in this. Good leadership is tough to bring about and requires a lot of self-discipline.

    Not denying it but having a reign over them. Difficult because it require constant effort and readjustments.

    I’m not clear on how what you are writing is not denial, or how it is different than prudery or asceticism.

    If you are saying that once a person is capable of emotional regulation then he can safely enjoy all sensory pleasures, and indeed is better off doing so, then I get it.

    If you are saying that the very denial of them in the service of self control is valuable, then I don’t. That’s simply asceticism.

  65. xsplat wrote:
    “If you are saying that the very denial of them in the service of self control is valuable, then I don’t. That’s simply asceticism.”

    It is asceticism. Asceticism in its original meaning of the word simply means training, practice. You probably associate it with prudery because of christian asceticism, a training or practice of christian values.

    You see no value in self control because, for you, the very act of self control is not satisfactory. Additionally, knowingly or not, you have analyzed the current social situation/environment and recognized that at the moment there is not much reason to delay gratification of any kind.

    So you reason, why engage in any form of ‘asceticism’ beyond what is needed to overall maximize pleasure.

    What do you think about pride?
    Like, for example, if someone offered you 1000$ and all you had to do was to kneel before him. It wouldn’t be public and nobody who knows you will ever hear about it – would you do it? How high is the price? How valuable is your pride?

    A hedonist should have no problem with that. It’s just a symbolic gesture, it means nothing.

    You see, pride comes from the spirit, the will.

    A second thing is – Why are you trying to convince MGTOWs to become hedonists?

    I mean, they are NOT participating in the sexual market place, they pay their taxes, what money they save is lost and consumed by the immediate consumer in the now (they haven’t realized that yet),… and so on.

    Shouldn’t you be out there and support them, encourage them? – Because… their behaviour is beneficial to you….

  66. @Andrews: Asceticism isn’t training and practice. It’s self-denial; a *demonstration* of discipline. It’s proving to the world that you have enough discipline to give up perfectly good, innocent pleasures for the sake of demonstrating that you have that much discipline.

    Having discipline is great. One can value discipline without valuing denial. If the only value in denial is glory to the sky fairies, then those that don’t worship the sky fairies have no reason to engage in it.

    Self-control is a value in those cases where denying oneself a pleasure now produces greater value in the future. It sounds like your “greater value” is being able to come here and tell us how disciplined you are. Grats!

  67. @Archon.

    I wrote that asceticism in its original form means training and practice. And so it does – look it up in a decent dictionary, the original greek word means to exercise, to train,…

    Nothing about religion or ‘sky fairies’. – again.

    You’ve got a problem with me? Or just with the word asceticism?
    Because if it is with me then be direct and upfront about it!

  68. There is no such thing as freedom. As soon as you define it, you’ll immediately see that it’s a ridiculous concept and an impossibility to attain.

    Many of us have had long periods where just being alive was mentally painful, in so many ways, and we struggled to get out from that state. We turned to every possible avenue.

    Some of us had turned to meditation and philosophy and a community of like minded seekers. And for some of us that worked, and the pain and suffering diminished and it was good to be alive most of the time, sometimes great to be alive for long stretches of time.

    Some of us turned to increasing our social wellbeing, and found that that worked, even when all meditation tricks did not.

    Some of us turned to financial wellbeing, and found that that worked, even when all meditative and social avenues of exploration did not work, and found happiness and peace then.

    Some of us turned to being in mutual love, and found that worked immensely well, even when meditative discipline and an active positive social life and financial wealth did not bring us nearly as much steady contentment, joy, and bliss.

    But there is no such thing as freedom. Happiness is still relative; existence is still fundamentally conditioned. Subjectively and objectively you have to do A to feel B, and external situation C will make you feel D. It is a fools goal to seek unconditioned freedom.

    Awareness can contextualize the ego, such that ego and desire still happens, but that’s a relatively minor part of what happens. One word for that is vipassana, which has been roughly translated as spacial awareness, or insight. Using words to talk about it breaks down and becomes gibberish, because we need subject/object distinctions in language, but the contextual wider awareness is on both sides of the fence at once.

    Having that experience of prajna, or vipassana, is rare and occurs usually in peak life experiences or to a small portion of the most advanced meditators, and it can be argued that it either never happens as a continual stable experience, or that if it does it happens as a stable experience to an extremely minor population of an extremely minor population. Work at it your whole life with full dedication and it’s still extremely unlikely that you will have a stable strong post meditative experience.

    On the other hand I did have some moments of weeks and months where my experience was flavored with non-dual wakefulness that was wider than ego and knew “itself” to be so, and some periods of near 24 hour awareness, through into dreams and the deep dreamless state. And there are many discussions of people regularly experiencing “samadhi”, or the witness state without the subject/object narrative happening at all (and I’ve experienced that too, as I now dimly recall).

    It’s been said that even for those who do stably rest in the witness state, that their thoughts and ego don’t get in line with that perspective for decades later, if ever. Basically our normal self just gets contextualized. The same rules and regulations of emotions that we had before continue on as before. What we like and don’t like stays the same, and our emotions are just as contextual as before; songs and life events affect “us” emotionally. We get angry, irritated, happy, sad. It’s just that awareness can contextualize it to a degree such that this is only a relatively minor part of awareness. It gets silly to call our “self” this narrative story we used to call our self.

    But again, such a witness state is very rare for people to stabilize in, and it’s usually only the most advanced in a very large community of dedicated meditators who get much of an experience of that. And even then without constant dedicated re-grooming of neurons with mindfulness training, such experiences fade.

    What does seem to last however is being less bothered by things – it’s no tragedy if an emotion happens. You already get into the habit of knowing it doesn’t much matter if you are happy or sad, and allow yourself to be that. In a strange way the new type of emotional regulation is to not regulate.

    Talking about that is considered by some to be unskillful, because you have to first go through the stages and steps. It’s not really the same thing to have uncontrolled rage as it is to accept your strong emotions as they arise with nuanced control and finesse, like a surfer riding an enormous Maui killer wave.

    It’s not skillful to tell beginner meditators to not alter their thinking process. But advanced meditators kind of do just that. Sounds paradoxical, so it’s almost better not to talk much about it. But this is why beginning meditators emphasize concentration first, or shamata, and then later raise their gaze and emphasize resting their mind in wide spacial awareness without altering, or vipassana. The not too tight not too loose balance takes time and physical neuron connections to grow into, and those neuron connections will degrade without regular reinforcement through deliberate mindfulness/awareness training, and besides, the shift in attention to a non-dual perspective is elusive for the vast majority of people, and even those that do sometimes get that shift can lose it and not be able to get it back, seemingly no matter what they do.

    But the whole reason I am talking about these things isn’t to get into esoteric Buddhist philosophy or to discuss subtle aspect of meditation, it’s to discourage people from using asceticism as an excuse to not put in the effort to get laid.

    In every school of Buddhism, the ascetic outlook is specifically frowned upon. Despite the fact that Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is the hallmark and stamp of the religiously fervent in all traditions, avoiding desire and pleasure for the sake of it is NOT a Buddhist attitude. So, MGTOWers, stop using that holier than thou approach – the Buddha thinks your an idiot for your ascetic self denial in the name of ascetic self denial.

    You are not a more free person for “not being ruled by your penis”. You are just an ascetic prude.

    You don’t have to make it through to the most advanced stages of meditative awareness to be able to sacrifice and work hard for a cookie, to enjoy the anticipation of a cookie, and to enjoy the delicious crunchy chocolaty goodness. The same for sex. There is nothing holy in self denial. It’s just living life wrong like a stupid idiot.

  69. Xsplat,

    I have been telling you three times now that I am talking about a chair and not a cupboard. I have explained to you what I mean when I say ‘chair’, how it looks like and what it does but you insist, willfully I have to assume, that I am talking about a cupboard when I say chair.

    If I’d know your word for chair, in your language, then I’d use it but in your world there is no chair, it doesn’t exist, you have no idea what it is – so you keep on telling me about that cupboard.

    So I tried to explain to you what a chair does and what it’s for, what it looks like. But you proudly explain to me how it’s stupid to sit on a cupboard.
    You also tell me about the kitchensink and how the kitchensink is also not suited for sitting.

    Hilarious conversation.

  70. Thanks for clearing that up Andrews. Your words have now created a crystal clear image in my head of what you really mean to say. Masterful use of language.

    Actually, no. Or maybe it’s my fault for not being a great mind reader?

  71. So, what do you think about pride?
    Why does it exist? What’s its function?
    That’s essential to the perspective I am pointing out.
    (try to, like a Try-hard – hahah)

    Buddhism doesn’t like pride. Neither does Christianity.
    Pride can be a real problem when it comes to getting laid.
    Not much room for pride in hedonism.

    From the wiki –
    Pride is an inwardly directed emotion that carries two common meanings. With a negative connotation, pride refers to an inflated sense of one’s personal status or accomplishments, often used synonymously with hubris. With a positive connotation, pride refers to a satisfied sense of attachment toward one’s own or another’s choices and actions, or toward a whole group of people, and is a product of praise, independent self-reflection, or a fulfilled feeling of belonging.

    So, that negative connotation of pride – What do you think about it?
    Because if you can’t think of any reason, why to have that kind of pride – why it would exist…then my perspective will be meaningless to you.

  72. A lot of Game is simply a return to a man’s natural masculine state. Now, for a lot of men this is harder than it ought to be, because from birth we are conditioned to the Feminine Imperative.

    That’s what it was for me. I was at the edge of Red Pill awareness long before I discovered Game or heard of PUAs, or any of that. Like Morpheus said in the Matrix, I knew there was something wrong with the world, something that didn’t add up in the usual way, but it was difficult to articulate. I find the more “manly” things I do, the better I feel. Sure, Game helps with sex and relationships, but it also feels more correct. I’m a happier man now that I have dispensed with the White Knighting.

    I remember the first time I fired a shotgun at the local gun range. My girl at the time was laughing at me for trying to be a “stereotypical guy.” But I was having a great time. It felt good to have that power at my disposal. Something awakens in a man when he first becomes proficient with a weapon. Everywhere I walked, I was more confident and felt stronger.

    I remember when I traded in my economy car for a big pickup truck. Yeah, some women would blather about compensation and throw more shit tests at me (it’s the same if you buy a fast sports car, too). Yet, now I had more power at my command. I could tow things, haul things, and when I wanted to merged onto the freeway, people got the hell out of my way. Because of the pickup truck, I was more useful as a man, more productive. There were more things I could do, and it was good.

    In fact, pretty much every “stereotypical” male activity that women laughed about made me feel better about myself when I did it. And even though many women laughed at me for it, they NOTICED me, which they didn’t before.

    Game awareness was just another step in my personal development from White Knight shrub to the man I am today. And I’m not stopping either… next week I’m picking up some classes for kite surfing. It will be fun, I’m sure, and the women will like it too. After that, maybe I’ll learn a martial art, who knows? The possibilities are endless.

    My point with that whole rant is this: what makes you feel good as a man also happens to be attractive to women — no matter how much they may shit test you for it. It’s inseparable. You can’t say “I’m only doing it for me.” But you’re not doing it entirely for her benefit either. You’re doing it because you’re a man, and you want to be a better man. That includes sex, but it’s certainly not limited to that.

  73. So, what do you think about pride?
    Why does it exist? What’s its function?

    Pride about what? Pride about being able to hold in a dump for the longest amount of time? Pride about being able to not fuck? Pride about having pride?

    If pride has a function, then look to what you want to accomplish and guage if the pride is working towards that ends you want, or not. If pride is the end in and of itself, then it’s not a fulfilling a function. What can it bee good for? Well, it can be motivational – a guy can want to feel proud of being good with women, and so use the desire for pride as motivation. When it is earned it can feel good. It can go hand in hand with being valued by others as deserving a position of status, and we know that status has benefits.

    But pride for the sake of pride for the sake of pride doesn’t have any of those effects. You can feel proud of your ability to not have sex, and it won’t raise your status in ways that improve your effectiveness in the world or influence those who have the power to give value to your life. You can feel proud of your asceticism and the emotion won’t make you feel better than the same pride in being able to enjoy sensations, and furthermore you’ll lack the actual enjoyments of the sensations. Pride in being able to not eat cookies is useless – you can have the same pride plus the delicious crunchy chocolaty goodness of a fresh home baked cookie.

    Seems to me you are implying that your ego needs something to hold on to to feel extra special in the world, and you use control to achieve that – kind of like how an anorexic uses control over appetite to feel that everything is in order. Kind of like how OCD people gravitate to ritualistic prayers at set times. Your a good boy, and you proved it through your OCD trials!

  74. Still babbling about your kitchensink. So this is you venting about MGTOWs or whoever. Carry on then.

  75. After my wife and I separated, I was deeply depressed. Somewhere in there, I stumbled upon MMSL and it resonated really deeply with me. That was my Red Pill Moment. Everything since has been onward and upward

  76. Marriage fell apart (not in one cataclysmic moment, but slowly over several years). She moved out, took the kids, left me to deal with the mortgage company and the house, I supported (and still do) her and the kids.

    One day I decided to quit being a lazy fat guy, so started working out. I also tried to get her back (in all the wrong ways) – when that backfired, I found No More Mr. Nice Guy and the forum over there. From there, I found Way of the Superior Man and Married Man’s Sex Life Primer. All those pointed to more and more references.

    Now, I read a few blogs and have become more attuned / aware. I can see things a bit clearer – and have changed some things in and around my life – but have not been able to apply it to my STBXW – she still has my number. I have identified my “mental illness”, but have yet to decide to fix it.

  77. The reason why men should work out is simple.

    It builds testosterone. More testosterone means more dominance. More dominance means more success with women and social settings.

    The actual muscles build certainly look good. But that is secondary compared to the heightened testosterone levels.

  78. ” … life-preserving function that results from increased muscularity …”

    Totally correct and underappreciated. Being wrapped in a suit of muscle is a huge buffer against physical stress.

  79. Here is my story:

    I broke up for good with the girl my former beta self thought was the ONE in fall 2010 (she kept dumping me and then crawling back and even though I was heartbroken about it I finally found the balls to put an end to the cycle) … sometime in spring 2011 I stumbled upon Roosh’s blog and some other PUA type websites and became fascinated with pickup with the unspoken intention of finding another ONE … flash forward to summer 2012 and I think I finally found another ONE who I am head over heels for … she promptly dumps me a few weeks later after piercing my alpha exterior and becoming repulsed by my beta true self … that is the point I hit rock bottom and experienced total ego death … after a few weeks in an alcoholic haze, I finally went searching for answers and found your best of year one post and the rest is history … Thanks for everything, Rollo …

  80. You guys helped save my bitter, passive/aggressive, everyone is lucky but me ass!!!! Rollo and the people that post here, thanks brothers!! Another guy that is unplugging and finally LIVING again. You guys set the foundation and I’m willing to do the hard work.

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  82. Marcus666

    July 18th, 2013 at 4:11 am

    Nothing has changed much since then, except that I know now exactly why I don’t get laid.


    Oof. That summed up a nagging feeling I’ve been having for a while. (Been reading TRM for a while now, and found this page by idly Googling “Giving up on game” or some such.

    Right in the feels. :/

    (Saying that, I still prefer the position I am than being some put-upon boyfriend or pussy-whipped husband. Being single is under-rated. Reaching the sweet spot in between is the tricky part)

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  85. To make a long story short, my wife left me 6 weeks ago for another man. We’d been together 8 years, 2 of them married. Since then, a friend expressively insisted that I check the Rational Man blog, which I started doing for the last two weeks.
    Apart from giving high praises to Rollo for this endeavor of his, I want to share the impact this had on my life in terms you will understand.

    Presently, my first priority is making sure I do what I want to do.

    “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the law, love under will” as someone else said.

    You could call it a mixture of imagining my frame, setting it in a way that I am sure I am the point of origin from any angle and acting upon my desires without bothering about the opinion’s of other. Since I am a well behaved man, that’s easy to do without attracting too much unwanted attraction.

    This mental construction of how I should act is mostly reinforced while I am walking around my city, at the same time that I am casually observing women, rating their SMV according to the laws of the SMP. Call it data collection for now.
    I really enjoy this part as I also learn to project the Aloofness/Amused Mastery brand of masculinity. (First impression: eye-opening effectiveness in making women jittery)

    I am also learning that meditation is very good at tampering anxieties you may feel as you decide to approach a woman. Eventually, i”ll have confidence in my Game’s skills.

    But the most beneficial is a that brand new paradigm as appeared in me: I do not have sniper mentality and ONEitis attraction anymore.

    Gone, done, NEXT.

    (I understand location can be a good thing as ladies in the city I live in are plentiful and actually take care of themselves)

    However, I now realize the hopelessness engendered by these two mindsets and avoid them at all costs.

    I am on my way to be the man I know I know I am.
    I just need to grow properly in that skin.

    I see a light and it’s shining brightly for all of us.

  86. My last relationship started the silent questions. I had been dating a psychologist, who at times was prone, to embellish her accomplishments. She was also an alcoholic and in dire financial straits.
    When I say alcoholic, I don’t mean a few too many after dinner. I mean vodka, neat, straight from the bottle. First thing in the morning.

    She was (and by extension me, were) in a bad way most days.

    You have to understand, these were the days when I was still King beta. My round table, filled with white knights. Ready to protect and serve.
    As hopeless as her circumstances appeared, I wanted to help. Though when it became obvious she couldn’t(wouldn’t) be helped. I conceded defeat and left.

    I knew after this episode, something was terribly wrong with me. How could I have been so willing to compromise myself, for someone who didn’t merit it? My resolve was to find out. I had already made the decision not to date until I did. But as fate would have it, a colleague (at my then, place of employment) threw herself at me, after one night in which we both attended a fellow colleague’s leaving do. This happened a few months after the split and I tactfully tried to inform this woman I wasn’t ready for anything.
    But she ignored me and proceeded to cling to me, as though she hadn’t caught my meaning.
    I didn’t know what red flags were at the time, but I saw enough of them in that moment to act by abruptly leaving her at the end of the night.

    While some readers may agree with my blue pill rationale and think I had missed an opportunity. I know, looking back, this woman had an ulterior motive. The whole story is too convoluted to recite, but trust me when I say all the evidence points to this being the case
    The private conflict I had over this incidence led me to discover several manosphere sites. Until reading a post in which the author seemed to have a deep understanding of gender dynamics. The poster accredited The Rational Male for his insight and I came here.

    If I’m being brutally honest I use the red pill to show me who women really are. This in turn helps my mind, control my biology so I can get on with the job of working and saving for my ultimate goals in life. Of course I still do little things to make myself attractive, with women partially in mind. But I don’t do enough of it. For instance I have a new pair of trainers I haven’t worn, yet I walk around in a pair that have seen better days. My t-shirts are faded and have the look of being ironed once too often.

    This is who I am. I’m not going to change.

    The way I see it. A woman will want the things I’m working towards but she won’t lift a finger to help, achieve it. Even worse she’ll undermine those efforts by demanding holidays, clothes and money for her frivolous lifestyle. If any of you knew the mountain of shit I’ve had to climb to accumulate the small pot I’ve got, let alone the mountain I have still to climb, to get to where I’m going. You’d appreciate the low regard, I have for women’s entitled behaviour.

    The red pill will also help me reconstruct my core mentality and give me an identity that best reflects my self interests.

  87. What made me change ? The ongoing cognitive dissonance of a guy who was always naturally red pill instinctively driven and the weird sensation of becoming a beta in marriage. TRP and in particular your writings struck an absolute chord that my instinct were always right and i let my frame and mental point of origin slip in marriage ….your writings reconfirmed to me that my gut was true all along, but i needed a kick of confirmation.

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