The Red Pill Monthly – Frame

If youtube isn’t your thing you can get the audio archive here.

 

I managed to get some time with Niko once again yesterday. He was kind enough to stay up late and get a talk in for another installment of our semi-regular podcast The Red Pill Monthly (more like bi-monthly recently).

I really liked this one because we delved into some new stuff about Frame and the importance of establishing and maintaining a solid sense of self and purpose in all aspects of a man’s life, but focusing on the interpersonal and intersexual importance of Frame.

The concept of Frame is not my original idea, it’s actually derived from interpersonal psychology. However, way back in my early days at SoSuave I made the connection to the psychological principle and what PUAs of the time were advocating as a means to control in seduction. I begin my Iron Rules of Tomassi with Frame because I’ve always felt that everything else in seduction, and life in general, hinges upon the realities we create for ourselves.

The pop-cultural term for it today is ‘mindset’, but I feel the concept of Frame extends beyond what’s generally a retreading of The Power of Positive Thinking that’s being promoted as mindset now. It certainly plays a part in the entirety of holding Frame, but the overall establishment of Frame with a woman, with other men, with your family or with your employer requires an art that extends past just how one thinks of himself.

Iron Rule of Tomassi #1

Frame is everything. Always be aware of the subconscious balance of who’s frame in which you are operating. Always control the Frame, but resist giving the impression that you are. 

The concept of “frame” is yet another ephemeral idea that had need of a term in the very beginnings of the great masculine awakening that’s become the ‘community’. If memory serves I think it may have been Mystery who first picked up on what’s really a very rudimentary and well established psychological principle. In psych terms, frame is an often subconscious, mutually acknowledged personal narrative under which auspices people will be influenced. One’s capacity for personal decisions, choices for well-being, emotional investments, religious beliefs and political persuasions (amongst many others) are all influenced and biased by the psychological narrative ‘framework’ under which we are most apt to accept as normalcy.

Rather than go into too much depth here I’ll just encourage you to listen to the podcast and we’ll have an open comments thread about Frame. I think it’s good to review some older principles, not just for the benefit of newly Red Pill aware men, but also because I think it’s good to reconsider these ‘standards’ from a perspective of time and where we are as a Red Pill community today.

Frame, and understanding its importance, is the foundation of dozens of other Red Pill principles and applications. As most of my readers know, I try to avoid specific prescriptive advice. I’m not in the business of telling men how to live their lives with formulaic step-by-step Red Pill templates. The Red Pill isn’t one-size-fits-all and men need to interpret their Red Pill awareness according to their personalities, cultural context, social situations and personal beliefs.

That said, in the coming months I will be offering some more generalized, prescriptive ideas or suggestions as to how I feel men might apply certain Red Pill principles in their lives. The 9 Iron Rules are about as close as I come to prescriptive advice, and while I’m not in the business of making ‘Rational Male Men’, after reviewing them with Niko I think that some generalized advice according to Red Pill awareness might be something in the offing.

So, let me know what you think about this ideas as well as any questions or input you have about Frame once you’ve listened to our talk. It runs about an hour and a half. I’m also toying with the idea of discussing each of the Iron Rules in the coming RPM podcasts. Let me know if that’s something you’d be interested in listening to.

Enjoy!

rollo_t

228 comments

  1. Is the podcast available in another format other than YouTube? I’d rather have streaming audio as opposed to having to keep a YouTube video open to be able to listen. It drains battery and doesn’t allow me to use my phone for anything else while I listen.

    If the podcast is available through iTunes that would be awesome. Everyone could just use the default podcast app to listen.

    Thanks.

  2. If a girl your seeing and have been fucking ditches you 3 nights in a row literally an hour before your supposed to hang out. Im assuming were definitly operating in her frame and shes thinking Im making myself too available to her. What is the best way to react to a situation like this??
    Thanks

  3. If possible, please create a transcript. I can read much, much faster than I can hear people talking.

    My question is – how do you build a strong frame? And in particular, a strong frame with women? I have an ultra-strong frame in everything else in my life – professional, intellectual, ideological – and ZFG if anyone disagrees with me. But once I start dealing with women, son of a bitch I get sucked into their frame every time.

    (The root cause of this problem, and I am sure this is often the case, is I was raised by a single mother – no contact with dad or positive males – and she insisted I operate in her goddamn feminine frame throughout my childhood and adolescence.)

  4. Shouldn’t have given her a third chance. Second chance is sometimes ok if you think she has a legit excuse for why she didn’t show up. If she doesn’t show up the second time then you know she isn’t interested and you should move on.

    To prevent this from happening in the future you should work on your game so that when you tell her you want to meet up her interest level is high and she’ll actually want to meet up with you. Also, most of your texts should be about logistics. Here’s how I usually do it:

    Me: hey, going to center city tonight with some friends. Would like to see you there. Bring some friends if you want.

    Her: definitely, sounds fun!

    Me: [give her the time and address]. See you there.

    That’s it. Simple. If she doesn’t show and she doesn’t text you or you get the vibe she’s lying and decided to do something else that night then next her and move on. If you think her excuse is legit then you can give her a second chance. If she doesn’t show up the second time she’s not interested, don’t waste any more of your time.

  5. Would appreciate another source as well, other than youtube as it is blocked at work and I tend to listen to podcasts at work… using droid based tools such as castbox to capture to the device for offline listening while working…

  6. Rollo.
    While I appreciate alot of your works there is big difference between
    reading your article and listening 1.5-3 hours talk.
    Compare this what I am just listening to Tom Leykis modus of operandi, make a show, style, expression, exclamation points.
    As it goes now I am near to go to sleep after 15 minutes of listening and this is not what I think you had in purpose while making the talk.

  7. The popularity of this song signaled a weakened Weltanschauung for the nation – a celebration of one’s brokenness, instead of an affirmation of masculine strength.

  8. With regard to you suggesting that you might start offer more ‘prescriptive advice’. I think most men desperately need leaders. Humans are social creatures and hierarchy is our natural social structure. Liberalism, democracy, equality, political correctness, social justice, and human rights are all an attempt at undermining and working around the natural order of things. So, my advice is this; don’t shy away from being a leader when called upon.

  9. @Wise Man, I’ve decided to dedicate the third book to being more prescriptive. I’ve got to temper it with the understanding that it can’t offer individual specifics, but I’m planning on organizing it to be about solutions and/or plans.

  10. Thanks for the advice guys. Do you want to make it clear your nexting her or is just radio silencevtve way to go?

  11. Thanks for the advice guys. Do you want to make it clear your nexting her or is just radio silence the way to go?

  12. Niko talked about being the primary giver of dopamine for your girl. I found this perspective very interesting. While I understand how to meet my own dopamine needs (sex, hobbies, friends, etc.) what are some ways a man can provide dopamine for his woman? Sex being the obvious answer of course. So what other methods exist?

  13. @unknown
    Don’t use the youtube app.

    Go through a browser (I use Firefox on Android) to the youtube website and listen from there. Then you can have it playing in the background while doing other things on the phone or even turn the screen off to save battery.

  14. Tingles, dread, comfort to anxiety, sex, amused mastery, I’m sure YaReally will be along shortly to say that it’s about anything that leaves a woman with an emotional impact, positive or negative. Indignation, anything that feels like a roller coaster for a woman (figuratively) can trigger the dopamine effect.

  15. @Rollo

    I’ve been following you and the RP for many years now. I used to be totally BP and married. Now I’m RP aware and free. Your work helped save my life. So thanks.

  16. @ Tarl

    ” My question is – how do you build a strong frame? And in particular, a strong frame with women? I have an ultra-strong frame in everything else in my life – professional, intellectual, ideological – and ZFG if anyone disagrees with me. But once I start dealing with women, son of a bitch I get sucked into their frame every time.

    (The root cause of this problem, and I am sure this is often the case, is I was raised by a single mother – no contact with dad or positive males – and she insisted I operate in her goddamn feminine frame throughout my childhood and adolescence.)”

    Interesting. If your actual Frame is strong in other areas in life, it should also transfer that strength in dealing with women. It is all basically the same thing after all – Frame is Frame.

    Being aware of why your frame loosens with women is a huge help for you. It is a vulnerability of sorts. I’d recommend practicing extending the same elements of your ” Frame ” into all areas in life. That’s a true frame that is rock solid at it’s core.

    But the whole background story you point to tells why you have the issue wrt women’s frame. You are already aware, and that’s half the battle right there.

    I would only suggest that you slow down when dealing with any woman in a situation where that vulnerability might put you in a position you’d rather not be in. Take a 10 count and adjust yourself/frame/ Don’t do or say or commit to anything at all with a female before reminding yourself of what your goals/frame/ end result should be.

    It’ll take some practice before it becomes second nature. If you already know what constitutes a strong frame elsewhere in your life, just extend those things.

    Frame after all, is all encompassing at the root.

  17. @korin

    Radio silence for sure. If you communicate with her at all at this point, it will only make you look needy and vengeful. Nexting is for you, not her. Spin more plates.

  18. Also agree, would like to see you go into detail on the 9 Iron Rules… maybe one per podcast, each a shorter podcast (maybe 1/2 hour on each to really dig into them?)

  19. @Blaximus said,”Being aware of why your frame loosens with women is a huge help for you. It is a vulnerability of sorts. I’d recommend practicing extending the same elements of your ” Frame ” into all areas in life. That’s a true frame that is rock solid at it’s core.”

    @Tarl, Blax is spot on… until you nail down the cause of your conditional Frame, LTR’s will be a series of frustrating/traumatic failures for you.

    Given that a strong Frame is connected (among others things, but strongly) to an abundance mindset, you may want to start investigating there.

  20. @yareally @scray @pua

    “I walk past an 8 sitting there on the phone, fresh off that last set. I’m into her look, her vibe. – Attracted-”

    That makes all the difference in the world. 🙂 I went through a phase where I wasn’t getting laid at all for a solid half a year. It was brutal. But over time I realized that I was simply not going to places that had hot enough girls for me, so I was half-assing all my approaches because I really didn’t give a shit about the girls and sub-consciously didn’t REALLY want to fuck them…wasn’t inspired at all to bring any sort of game to the table, and the girls can sub-consciously pick up on that…and then ironically THEY reject YOU because they know you’re not really into them, and then you’re like “fuck I didn’t even want this ugly chick and she’s rejecting ME??? Fuck this shit!!” lol The cure was venturing into new social scenes with hotter girls that make me WANT to fuck them.

    that whole bit resonated a lot, reading some of scrays earlier FRs. Granted, scray was getting more BT than I have been, but I am at an earlier stage and in a worse situ (can’t punch above weight class here). But this FR in particular was a lot like *MY* FR from a few days ago with the 10min interaction with the 8 at mall. Similar situ relative to scray/mine overall level.

    I’ve been seeing that a lot. I get more of a reaction from 7+ than below that level, specifically since I WANT that 7+, not so much below that. So I get better reactions from them than like the 5s or whatever lol.

    Lots of understanding from reading these FRS. I really like this book you made jimmeh lol. Much easier to scan than lumpy archives — not that they aren’t needed lol, since you need a jimmeh to COMPILE all those posts lol. But the book makes it easier to jump to specific posts.

    reading a lot of this stuff now. looking at text game (culum suggestion) and spiking BT (colbert suggestion). cool stuff.

    progress on relocation. got an interview in good city for the EXACT same job I was offered years ago. concerned about issues at current job, but just got a special award there for doing a good job so feel a bit better now. Bringing that to interview. Part time job, but awesome job. benefits, good pay. Good since it means I can also get another part time job at a job that is more my ideal for long time career. So when it comes to making my BIG move to area I really want to live in, I have more option. THIS job with a big company, or with my more ideal job. So will help long term. We’ll see, but this is the first progress in job front for MANY MANY months lol.

    so yeah, yareally, I would DEF like a through breakdown of my FR with that 8 black from a few days ago here:

    https://therationalmale.com/2016/08/07/trust-issues/comment-page-3/#comment-166090

    forget the 7 from last week lol.

    lots of progress

    and hopefully moving to better city. will be MUCH better there when I have nightclubs, multiple bars, breweries, shopping areas, etc and more black chicks (lol, def have the jungle fever blax lol) to hit on lol.

    so fingers crossed here. but have a bit opportunity for lots of progress here.

  21. There’s an interesting comment battle today on Married Red Pill

    Someone postulates that if you were mostly beta when you married then you are locked into BB frame regardless of what you do. Certainly you can (and should) divorce and be AF in new relationships.

  22. The framing of Pregnancy…”He got me pregnant”.

    Her frame, the false frame, the one formed to deceive and help her shirk responsibility, establishes a lie, then permits and enforces the consequences of her half fraudulent statement “He got me pregnant”. This is a common statement and generally in our society, it is still the primarily accepted frame of how women “get pregnant”.

    Consider the following realities. It takes both to create a pregnancy. She carries the ovaries and eggs. She knows very well what can happen to her eggs by messing around with sperm squirting dicks. Are you still with me? So, she knows this and is in far more in control of it than he is. But….she commonly says….”he got me pregnant”. “He” did it. Rarely but occasionally we hear “we got me pregnet”. Do you see through her lie and do you comprehend the nature behind it, her nature?

    She has more control due to birth control, current social custom and social & legal imperatives that are orchestrated in her favor. And she alone possesses the biological seed and apparatus to get pregnant. He only possesses the fertilizer and the means to inject it. It is exclusively her decision and choice to be the recipient of his fertilization which happens if he desires to provide it. She controls who, where and when that fertilization comes, usually selected from a large number of suitors regardless if copulation is occurring with all or not. In fact, she preselects which fertilizers she will copulate with and which one she will not then further refines her culling process to those who she decides will fertilize her eggs usually after half a generation or a decade of riding the cock carousal while simultaneously optimizing and culling fertilizers. This is hardly a “he did it” scenario. Unless she is living in a haram in the Middle East, don’t believe her. If she is a concubine of an Islamic war lord or somthing equlivant, she COULD be telling the truth when she says “he got me pregnant”. Any western woman who is not a confirmed rape victim who makes such a statement is a half liar at best. Half truths are the most effective at deception.

    Outside her frame, in the real world, (and the real world is the frame every man would be better off operating in) it would be far more honest for typical western women to stop saying “he got me pregnant” and tell the truth by saying “I got myself pregnant on his dick”. This would be far more honest and realistic, but then no one in our culture really cares since women are not concerned with or expected to respect honor because it mitigates their cunning manuplitave imperative. Her frame is intended and designed to help her shirk her responsibility and place the primary burden on him while simultaneously dishonoring him. This female social psychological dynamic is not relegated to pregnancy alone, it pervades all of her engagements.

  23. @Redlight

    I was following that. And thought the discussion was good.

    I think there is a certain truth to that. Trying to recover from either blue pill beta (poor frame) at marriage time or not having a quality LTR woman (Heh, luck-of-the-draw or intuition on attempted vetting of her originally, raises its mean, ugly head) has got to be the worst hole to dig out of ever.

    It is basically about not being a butt-hurt pussy with a poor quality spouse and having false ego-investments (although not able to determine this by the information offered.)

    The thread is “Wife still sucks, I don’t anymore” original poster is PaterFamilias79.

    Frankly, I think the guy has a shitty wife. And he is doing a heroic job of trying to adapt.

    How the guy rationalizes he is improving his own personal dynamic. He gets irrationally self confident. He got fatter than hell, lost the weight and feels entitled.

    Lots of different variables going on, including his actual worth, her actual worth for him and her utter lack of desire to fuck him. Also the celibacy, vs monogamy debate.

    I have been a regular reader of MRP this past six months and I have to say the commenters there are awesome. I love their ball-busting style. Married Red Pill is a small community. Guys that actually want to stay married. Older Married Guys in particular.

    I think the anonymous internet commenters on reddit are doing the guy a favor by being in conflict/competition with him in intellectual debate. This is what guys do when they don’t have fights to fight in real life.

  24. @Darami i waited one hour after she last ditched me and texted “hey listen Im not liking where this is going I think we should just be friends” in terms of tactical nexting was this a mistake? Ive been radio silent ever since

  25. @redlight no i like her but the fact is she flaked on me 3 days in a row to get drunk at the club when 3 days earlier she was begging me to take her back from an earlier incident. So imo I had to let her know in some way that her behaviour was unacceptable. From everything ive read silence is the best answer but I saw the nexting article after the fact.

  26. The framing of Pregnancy…”He got me pregnant”.

    Well, sure, yeah, it just happened.

  27. @korin

    “I had to let her know in some way that her behaviour was unacceptable”

    are you the hamster police? she doesn’t give a flying fuck what you think, she is showing your text to Chad while he is balls deep in her ass

  28. @redlight well basically the whole nexting article is based upon the premise that your ignoring her because of unacceptable behaviour. I just happened to next her with words therefore leaving the uncertainty out if it so Im just curious is it totally fucked now or will I still most likely get the extinction burst?

  29. I’ve got to temper it with the understanding that it can’t offer individual specifics,

    You realize you could charge $150/hour to offer specific advice to individuals, right?

  30. I’ve got to temper it with the understanding that it can’t offer individual specifics,

    You realize you could charge $150/hour for specific advice to individuals, right?

  31. @Korin

    Costanza methed: KFG is being facetious.

    KfG is actually an advocate for Unconscious competence phase of Mastery whereas he laughs at you: George Costanza was still in in a phase of Un-conscience incompetence bordering on conscience incompetence when he dreamed up the Costanza gambit.

    It worked for him because of the fake it till you make it gambit. A perfect IDGAF gambit. For the clueless.

    Korin, your not even in the league of her having an extinction burst. She was never habituated to you in the first place.

    She was never hooked on you. And it is you not her. Who needs to be 90% better. (90% of red pill and game is you being attractive, not unattractive beta.)

    Costanza method is IDGAF, but it is certainly a fake it till you make it as you pursue a path to having a good mental mindset and having good PUA game.

  32. You are fine. You’ve been inoculated many times over. And are immune to girl tricks.

    You should take Korin to the Vet and make him get a shot of:…. well something or other….

  33. @korin

    It’s hard to say how screwed you are without knowing more of the specifics. But, see, you set an entirely nonsexual frame by suggesting that she should be “just friends” with you. Also, it very subtly indicates your (very real) sense of frustration about how things have gone.

    Alpha wouldn’t care if she texted him back or not. He just be like “whatever, maybe she’ll be down in a week or two. I’m kinda in the mood for girl B anyways, she does BJ’s.” And then, if she hadn’t totally lost his interest at that point, send out a feeler in a few weeks and escalate if she’s receptive. If she’s not, then he becomes less interested. Until contact breaks off entirely.

    Your message kinda reads as “Fine, I didn’t even want to see you anyways! 😡 ” If she was highly invested that might have a bit of sting just bc of the POSSIBILITY that you’re ACTUALLY losing interest, but she clearly gives (by generous estimate) approximately 0.25 fucks about pissing you off currently.

    I get that your dick is pissed off right now, but just go find another girl. There’s lots, promise.

    In the future, develop a habit of second guessing everything that you REALLY want to do all of a sudden. Because often times the things that you feel the most strongly about in the moment are driven by anxiety and frustration rather than by good game or logic. Costanza principle ftw! ( it can’t hurt to make a habit of listening to things that kfg tells you either lol)

    This case I just wait a few weeks, then send her a text message pretending like I’m really tipsy and horny and I’m reconsidering the whole damn thing. With luck she’ll be in the mood too, in which case just escalate from there and get her over. If she doesn’t happen to be in the mood or in a circumstance where she come, tough luck.

  34. @kfg

    That’s probably for the best. Can’t go letting you get too facieted on us. You might start to act a bit fondescending.

  35. Besides, vets have cheaper drugs. Bug-out bags across the country have bottles of antibiotics in them which sternly admonish you to only give their contents to fish.

  36. @redlight
    “There’s an interesting comment battle today on Married Red Pill
    Someone postulates that if you were mostly beta when you married then you are locked into BB frame regardless of what you do. Certainly you can (and should) divorce and be AF in new relationships.”

    Can totally agree on that. Better to cut your losses asap and start over. It can only get better.

  37. How do you maintain frame with a woman with a better job than you and circling to ‘settle down’?

    Post wall women are like level 5 freakin Jedis with their mind tricks, seductive as fuck and then they pull the rug right from under you. It’s like playing pick-up against LeBron.

  38. @Korin You wrote: “”i waited one hour after she last ditched me and texted “hey listen Im not liking where this is going I think we should just be friends” in terms of tactical nexting was this a mistake? Ive been radio silent ever since””

    I’ll be brutally honest because I too have written texts like this in the past.

    You come off as being angry and desperate. The only time this works is if the girl is chasing you.

    I just blasted a girl who was disrespecting me and I told her off: “Please just fuck off…” She came running back and begging me not to be so cold.

    But, in another recent case, I gamed and number closed a girl, then invited her to where I was djing after she asked me about it. “Come early and help me set up. Drinks.”

    She wrote back a few days later—not good. She blew me off saying she got the dates mixed up. I then said “If you promise to behave let’s meet for that birthday drink. What’s your schedule?”

    Nothing.

    So I didn’t text back. You have to be in a position to walk away. But usually girls who don’t hear from you always plug back in to where you were before. In my case, the “before” is I gamed and number closed her, so she’ll either plug in or won’t.

    In your case, you’ve totally lost frame. There’s nothing more to say. She flaked THREE TIMES!!!!!

    Once is too much. When I get a flake like that I just leave it and ignore. Let her come back to you and then when she does you can decide how to play it. Here, you’re coming off as chasing her and then sulking/butt hurt.

    Don’t do that again.

  39. the “big” think: robots are not evil since women can be trusted

    The dread of them turning evil really says more about our own psyches than it does about robots. Pinker believes an alpha male thinking pattern is at the root of our AI fears, and that it is misguided. Something can be highly intelligent and not have malevolent intentions to overthrow and dominate, Pinker says, it’s called women.

    http://bigthink.com/videos/steven-pinker-on-artificial-intelligence-apocalypse

  40. “In reality we design AI, and if we place safeguards in our designs, we truly have nothing to fear.”

    Asimov’s Three Laws of Robotics and the robot stories he wrote around them were an exercise in demonstrating how such safeguards inevitably fail.

  41. @rollo

    “Been posting on Twitter about this”

    missed that, sorry, I had picked it up from a tech stream (blue pill)

  42. @rollo on twitter

    “TBP sub is a collection of pussies who have no real counterarguments to TRP. They trash talk me 2 but never want to debate”

    what is funny is that emily is the most logical person there, and she is batshit crazy

  43. example

    TBP: reports of older men hooking up with much younger women are fake
    E: true that, though my stepmom, 25, married my dad

  44. to see if I can find out who Tyler’s “high quality” GF is (will be on 6th cover of playboy, does not mean main model), I go to playboy.com, and find, surprise, hamster infestation:

    The thought of this makes complex feelings arise, and the visceral reaction I experience—nausea and a free-floating anxiety that makes my skin tighten—forces me to contemplate what’s going on. It takes a minute, but I realize my self-justifications are connected to internalized shame. It’s making me sick. I worry that in my efforts to reverse our culture’s enduring double standard of how a woman who has multiple partners is a “slut” while a man is a “hero,” I’ve had to sacrifice suitors perceiving me as “wife material,” worthy of a white dress and a walk down the aisle.

    that’s industrial strength hamster

    bring back nude and fun women

    http://www.playboy.com/articles/sexually-liberated-deserve-love

  45. I know some of what I’ve written here is a bit extreme and some of you do not agree with everything I’ve written. I do not agree with everything I’ve read here either, including some of what Rollo’s written. I tend to be “dogmatic” with my expressions and probably come off as an absolutist of sorts as well as an asshole from time to time…or maybe all the time to some. Understandably, I have been accused of being a Troll before. Sometimes it may seem like I don’t give a damn what others think or express, however I do and I would not be here if I didn’t.

    I read all the posts and many of the comments here. This blog (in my opinion) for whatever reason attracts the largest number of the most intelligent members of the “mansosphere”.

    That all being said, I am honestly curious what any of you may think about the following considering the concept of “commitment”.

    “Commitment”

    It has been said and it seems fairly well established as a presumed reality that “Women are the gate keepers to sex and men are the gate keepers to commitment”. This model of gender specific “gatekeeping” seems to be the most widely accepted model in the red pill community and the general culture accepts it readily. This model seems rational enough, it significantly forms our frame of understanding about gender dynamics upon which we base our interpretations of behavior & intents, and our decisions to act. But is it the best model to explain what is really going on? Could this model be inferior in that it fails to account for an underlying more fundamental motivator? Is there a more accurate explanation for women’s intents and behaviors? Could this model be potentially deceptive?

    The sex side of this model is simple and easy to understand. It is very clear and specific to the fundamental biologic. It is inarguable, not negotiable. The primary drive motivating the sexual aspect is not political or social. It is biological. This is not the case with the commitment side. The commitment side is primary to the political and social realm. “Commitments” are always components of contracts written or otherwise.

    To comprehend what I’m about to explain, we must first agree on the primary definition of commitment. As I understand it, a commitment is a pledge to do something, a proclamation to perform certain action (or inaction) within a specific context for the benefit of another usually in exchange for some consideration. In the sexual context women seek “commitment” from a man primarily for provisioning and sexual exclusivity. The man “commits” to the woman that he will abandon his freedom and not enter into sexual relations with other women. He pledges himself financially and sexually to her exclusively. Realistically, this form of “commitment” includes the man abandoning his options. If he becomes sexually involved with another woman, it is widely considered that he has “broken his commitment” and he is dishonored by her and society for “breaking the commitment”. But, has he really broken any commitment other than a self denigrating pledge to forgo his freedom and abandon his options? Since obviously the male imperative is polygamy and spreading his seed, then isn’t the imposition to “commit” in the first place really a dishonor of his sexuality and a dishonor to him? If so, isn’t “commitment” in this context nothing more than a form of enslavement?

    So by saying men are the “gate keepers of commitment” aren’t we really saying that men are the “gatekeepers of their own enslavement”?

  46. Frame, like most Game principles, is the sweet truth of a banana sundae in a breakable thin-plastic container.

    In other words, Frame was invented by those who lacked self-confidence enough in their world to have to explicate it. Of course there’s such a thing as Frame, but it shouldn’t be necessary to put it in a psych-culture to have it grow. You should just be living it, working with it, breathing it.

    The problem with so much red-pill thinking is that it essentially is about bootstrapping yourself from victim to victor. For those who are not “naturals,” concepts such as frame, who has hand, hypergamy acquire great meaning.

    But if you live with firmness, balls, and strength, then the idea that you would need to vest thought and energy into “Frame” or that you’d have to play with a woman’s hypergamic impulses would be nonsensical. You would just know it and do it. And you would act as if you were not an actor on a Shakespearean stage, but an angel in the clouds.

    My final criticism: Better to do than to think. If you want to become a player, I recommend you take a friend and a video camera to a mall, have him record you hitting on woman after woman, then watch yourself.

    You will wince in pain, and you will rapidly begin to become the man that you want. An alpha, presumably. A superalpha, according to Game lingo, if you’re lucky. ~ CEO Nikolic

  47. @Redlight:

    Hugh took up the position of “emeritus” in the 80s, handing the actual operation of Playboy Enterprises over to his daughter.

    She did what women do, hired more women.

    She stepped down herself when Obama was elected because it “inspired her to give more time to charity work.”

    What sort of charity work?

    ” . . . the progressive political organization Center for American Progress. Their site describes her as having “long been involved in electing progressive candidates, advancing women, First Amendment issues, and advancing treatment for people with HIV/AIDS.” ”

    Playboy has been totally FI/SJW converged for some time now.

  48. I’ll also note that Maxim is such a shit rag because it was actually founded by women, its mission to supply men with what these women think men “really” want.

  49. @NBTM: “So by saying men are the “gate keepers of commitment” aren’t we really saying that men are the “gatekeepers of their own enslavement”?”

    Certainly, although I note that contracts, to be valid, must be give and take, and you have redacted what a man is supposed to get from the contract.

    Although this is not entirely beyond understanding, as women have been working hard to redact it from public consciousness for about 200 years now.

  50. “If you want to become a player, I recommend you take a friend and a video camera to a mall, have him record you hitting on woman after woman, then watch yourself.

    You will wince in pain . . .”

    I’ve actually been meaning to post almost exactly this for some time now. I guess you saved me the typing.

    I presume they do this at “bootcamps”?

  51. but it shouldn’t be necessary to put it in a psych-culture to have it grow. You should just be living it, working with it, breathing it.

    It shouldn’t, but it is.

    It’s not enough just to drive the car, it’s better to know how it was designed, why it works and what to do about it when it breaks down.

  52. @ NBTM

    I understand the concept that women are supposedly the gatekeepers of sex. I do not personally subscribe to this line of thought though.

    Actually, the only absolute I attribute to women is childbearing. Lol, I know that sounds odd, but that is more in line with how I see things. I reject the idea that anyone else is the ” gatekeeper ” of anything I need in life ( ” want ” is a different matter..). For me, it is purely a mindset issue. I do not abdicate lightly, and as a man I don’t think it proper to abdicate to a woman. That’s backwards.

    Sex is something I can have WITH a woman. I choose, not her. She may rebuff my advance for a myriad of reasons, but zfg. She is only ever one of billions. She holds no sway or power over me or my ability to get my sexual needs/wants addressed in a fashion that I’d like.

    Women do not GIVE sex, they share/have sex with men. There is a difference in the mindset between the 2 dynamics.

    In the end, I am always capable of taking whatever I want by force or other coercion, if that’s what I choose to do. In civilized society, I advise men not to take that route because of culturally imposed consequences, none the less, that doesn’t negate the truth of the matter. I feel that it is essential that men realize this on some level, even if it is a miniscule one. It is part of the burden of being a man, reigning in your power for the overall benefit of larger society.

    But the power remains. It is chained only in the mind.

    I think the acceptance of women as gatekeepers is a large part of the problem that men have wrt how they ” see ” the sex act as a whole. Women are attracted to the masculine, period. That can be attributed to biology or any other descriptor. The description is unimportant imo. But it does make discussions a lot easier.

    Until I started reading in the sphere, I’d never even heard of this notion of females gatekeeping anything at all.

    Lol, I know I might sound like an idiot to quite a few reading this, but I’m just being real. A man approaches a woman with sexual intentions. She may start testing and playing games. It’s up to the man whether or not he wants to play or even be bothered to put forth any effort. There is ALWAYS the option to bounce to the next target. Resist being held hostage by vagina. It’s just an orifice basically. It’s really ridiculous to assign any kind of ” power ” to ‘ it ‘ .

    Again, billions of orifices in the world. The limitations are in your head.

    As far as commitment is concerned, my oral commitment is given to men, or in contractual circumstances. With women, wives or gf’s, I do not give many oral professions of commitment. At least not in the terms that I see discussed in the sphere. I wouldn’t say that as a man I am the gatekeeper of commitment. I am a man that keeps his commitments. In marriage, my commitment is implied by the act or marriage. As with any other kind of commitment in life, my commitment is null and void upon someone trying to take advantage of, or fuck me over. I don’t do martyrism.

    The commitment with wife/family is general – I take care of my own. ” Care ” is subjective. I will define it. I am loving, deeply caring and benevolent. Don’t take it for granted and there will be peace, happiness and tranquility. Lol, that’s my general commitment. The best part of my version of commitment are the intangibles. The non material aspects. I can provide that which money can’t buy.

    Exclusivity is always dependent, never guaranteed. Pledges are for flags and furniture. Options are never abandoned. How can they be while a man is still breathing and ambulatory? I really don’t get that line or reasoning at all.

    Commitment is not a hostage scenario.

    Women do indeed seek commitment, and I’m not even mad at that. Women can seek/do whatever the fuck they want to do. A woman seeking commitment from me does not force me to feel compelled to launch into a series of promises and pledges. I will not feel put upon or forced. Everything is voluntary. Everything is a choice.

    Now, the softer, sugary parts-

    A condition of a woman being worthy of my love is that she exhibits at least a cursory understanding of how I think, how my mind works. ow willing is she to tone down her solipsism. A whole bunch of women can’t pass this test, and idgaf if they are 10+, we can have no business outside of sex and goodnight.

    But if a woman can form some kind of understanding outside of herself, she will detect a level of commitment and understand how to reciprocate in order to grow said commitment. It is CONDITIONAL. I will demonstrate, not explicate commitment, and if she is worth her salt, she will get it in her brain.

    Then if I am satisfied that she Just Gets It, she might be dragged down the isle of marriage. My mindset is stable ( after marriage #1 ) and does not wander or stray. Reliable and certain. Shit will not be taken.

    This is all different from dating and fucking though. The two are not that interchangeable. No man should ever sign up for any manner of servitude. Commitment is never an open ended proposition that is lopsided. I do not HAVE to do anything except stay black and die one day. Those aren’t negotiable in the least. All else is a choice. I choose that which benefits me when at all possible.

    I guess what I’m saying in conclusion, is that it’s not really all that important what women ( as a whole ) want. or say or think in the big picture. A man can learn from observation. Rollo mentioned in the video that raising a daughter taught him a lot about women. I agree 1000% . The other thing Rollo says a lot, that I fully agree with, is that women should be a compliment in a man’s life. Men have to figure out what a woman can do to compliment their life, and be unwavering in that in a mate or partner.

    Gatekeep that shit. Lol.

  53. Please, delete my prev. comment (I corrupted HTML). Here’s it without angle brackets:

    Rollo, I haven’t listened to it all, but I will after I get the audio into my phone to listen in the car. It’s not too long if I can listen to it in installments.

    About the great question – “can you put your wife in her place after your ‘RP awakening'”? There are two schools:
    a) No, never.
    b) Sure, just “learn game”, “practice biblical headship” etc.

    There are endless fights about it (well, not all the time) at Dalrock’s and, I guess, here, and in other corners of the ‘sphere.

    Today it hit me, that it’s more like “education” as a panacea to poverty and other “underprivilege”. Yes, you can take a poor boy and educate him, and elevate him to, say, upper class. Then the “clean slate” proponents cry out: “see, if we could just offer this opportunity to every poor boy and girl!” blah, blah, blah. But it was just a coincidence – he could become successful without the patron (maybe later, and people would marvel at a “late bloomer” phenomenon, or maybe screed against “ageism” like: “look, it’s not set in stone, that a math genius must start as a teenager and is done by thirty”), or this potential could go to waste.

    This is even more (can’t find a better word, 2nd language…) ridiculous (I wanted to say something like “contrastful”) in case of “see, women can be just good X as men” – soldiers, programmers, what have you. Well, being a Curie-Skłodowska (my native!) doesn’t happen to every girl you just let study physics at Paris University.

    OK, but what’s that to do with frame in marriage? (sorry for the long-winded introduction. I wish I could write shiv-sharp and concise like Roissy)

    Everything.

    (I just sounded like a girl, or a mangina SJW pseudo-pundit with the last paragraph)

    First, it depends on you, but it also depends on your wife. I cling to Catholicism, so nexting isn’t really a serious option after the wedding. (I digress, and I’m fighting temptations to digress even more at this point)

    So – you can improve yourself, but the actual outcome depends on her potential to be a good wife. And not “you can” but you actually must improve yourself regardless. Respect yourself. And start coaching her toward her full potential.

    The beginning of a relationship may be a good indicator. But it can start great, and degrade. When Mrs. G. met me at the university choir, she couldn’t believe her luck. (I’m so tempted to elaborate on that… But – safety first. No superfluous identifying details) We had the most romantic relationship I know of, despite me being an emotional beta. We got married before the final year of university. (damn, more disclosure. OK, but no more from now on).

    I had RP rage for the better part of last 3-4 years. I channeled it into rebuilding Frame and procreation. If it works, I can tell you when I’m old. Shit can happen. I can also get hit by a truck on tomorrow’s ride to work.

    What if your wife didn’t see you as “out of her league” when you first started dating? What if she’s a worse person than X (Mrs. G., Mrs. Dalrock, Mrs. Tomassi), or rather just doesn’t have the potential to spousal greatness? I wouldn’t say “just eat cake”. Maybe if you do everything right, you just contain her, with no tangible (right word?) improvement. Like trying to teach violin to a person with zero musical ear.

    If you’re longing for some time in the past, this can be restored (or even topped). If she was just pretending, she could start pretending again 😉 – and women can adapt, so it may also become second nature. Only if she was abusing you from the start, and you just were a blue pill masochist, then she’d have to learn new stuff. I’ll leave it to more competent people to discuss if this is always possible or not.

    Final sidenote – mother-in-law game. Well, mine is a widow (she brought the poor man to his grave…), but I’d propose that you also need some game on that front. Pure frame, with no sexual interest. Long story short, my “other mom” was considered a monster, belittled me in front of the children, badmouthed me, and it was generally “tense”. I heard often: “Oh, how are you (plural “you”) handling it with ‘mother’ living in the same city?” etc. “Yeah, she gives you (singular “you”) a lot of shit” (approx. transl.) This is true. But I changed. First I was also petty (beta nerd background, sometimes comes handy), like making sure she heard the word “grandma” as often as possible in the third person. But then I took a more high-level approach. Along the lines of “amused mastery” – I treated her nonchalantly before her family and peers, but mostly without aggression. I also taught her to wait for and appreciate my favors (widow, remember? Needs some technical help around the house sometimes). We’re now getting along just fine – letting her babysit the kids etc. I picture in my imagination, that if I spanked her, she might just giggle. But I feel no urge to do it.

  54. CEO Nikolic
    But if you live with firmness, balls, and strength, then the idea that you would need to vest thought and energy into “Frame” or that you’d have to play with a woman’s hypergamic impulses would be nonsensical. You would just know it and do it.

    Yeah, you’d Just Get It.

    https://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

    Might want to read some of the archives…

  55. It’s become clear to me that the essence of the Blue Pill is the attempt of others to suck you into a false frame,

    and the Red Pill, of course, consists of rejecting that frame and designing a new one for yourself that encompasses both reality, and what is good for you you rather than those who would be your owners.

  56. @ Tom

    ” It’s become clear to me that the essence of the Blue Pill is the attempt of others to suck you into a false frame,

    and the Red Pill, of course, consists of rejecting that frame and designing a new one for yourself that encompasses both reality, and what is good for you you rather than those who would be your owners.”

    I agree.

    Now the trippy part is that there are an easy dozen ” Blue Pill ” worlds out there. Most of our society is being lulled into a false paradigm.

    I advocate for all men to eventually adjust their frames to deal with all of the Blue-ness that surround them in every day life.

    But, first things first. A man thinks more clearly with less volume in his balls.

  57. Blax

    “I advocate for all men to eventually adjust their frames to deal with all of the Blue-ness that surround them in every day life.”

    Or ignore all the other [easy dozen?] frame grabbing attempts and pursue the Platinum Rule [do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it] and obviate the need to sniff another’s frame…

  58. @ Sentient

    ” Or ignore all the other [easy dozen?] frame grabbing attempts and pursue the Platinum Rule [do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it] and obviate the need to sniff another’s frame…”

    Brother, that’s one way to approach things definitely. ” Rule #1: Don’t sweat the small stuff. Rule #2: It’s all small stuff “. That’s mostly my motto nowadays.

    Yet, in order to ignore something, one must recognize it first. It’s not about sniffing another’s frame, as much as it is about understanding the totality of the Matrix.

    30 year mortgage…

    Trickle Down Economics….

    People who’ve given up looking for work….

    Republican vs Democrat… ( protip= Zero difference )

    Fiat currency….

    Heroes….( not the sandwich )

    Merit…..Meritocracy…

    Higher education…..

    Fair Market/value

    Radical Islamic terror….lol

    There’s so much that men think they understand, but they really don’t know. They have the Blue Pill equivalent in understanding. And just like with the FI, these things have armies of ” White Knights ” valiantly defending the bullshit.

    The FI is not the only enemy of men’s interests in the world.

    Men are getting a raw fucking deal in 2016 and beyond. They believe the equivalent of ” be nice/ Just be yourself ” in other aspects of life besides female relationships/ feminism.

    And it will only get harder/harsher.

    Guys our age, we don’t tend to notice as much. What is there for a young 20 year old going forward?

    Ok, ok…. enough of the negative shit.

    I’m going to the gender neutral bathroom and relax on the ” fainting couch ” for a spell.

  59. Commenters:

    Forgive the rollercoaster-like swinging of my commentary above. I have been engaged in many deep discussions with friends and family over the past week concerning the lunacy that we all live in called society.

    It’s still fresh in my noggin.

    Sentient may be correct. Ignore.

  60. Blax

    he he he…. crazy world indeed we live in…

    But the Platinum Rule, most powerful Frame Sate one can have… because it is never wrong… amazing?!?

    Now it may also kill you… so there is that… LOL

  61. “Trickle Down Economics….”

    The more you own, the more you earn,
    the less you pay, on tax returns.
    But if you’re poor, no need to frown,
    just trust in Reagan wait for trickle down.

    The millionaires, can pay no tax,
    it’s just the tips they give their waiters that get axed.
    But just be glad, for what you’ve got,
    there’ll be more jobs for maids and butlers and whatnot.

  62. Anonymous Reader

    Joe the cop is ” taking a break ” from my goddaughter.

    She’s busy engaged in some epic, Olympian styled partying.

    Joe and I have gotten together a few times. I’m counseling him to move on and cut his loses.

    But Joe wants to wait her out until she gets ” it ” out of her system and matures a little. She’s giving him the Yo-Yo treatment, push/pulling him.

    Because he is so understanding and fond of her, he is resisting the clean break.

    I’m working on him slowly like a rusted bolt. When the conversation re: Relationships gets to a cold, sticking point, we talk about football, baseball, and everything else under the sun.

    The funny thing is…. honestly? I am more worried about him being hurt than I am about my goddaughter. He’s squeezing like a motherfucker, but he’s barely getting any juice. When they take a ” break “, she hops on a plane or goes to the shore and lives it up. He works double shifts.

    I’m trying to ease him into RP thinking. Like I said, if he can start to get it more, I’m going to point him to Rollo’s books. Right now, he’s not softened up quite enough yet. He thinks he’s in control by freeing her to ” think about what she wants “, but that’s NOT what she’s doing.

  63. @Culum

    @HABD
    OUCH.

    lol… ya, I’m too busy for anything but a little tough love, right now…lol but you really DO know this stuff and your past success is proof that you ‘can’…lol

    you just need to let yourself remember that… lol

    and get out of your own way on the road to ‘awesome’…

    Okay I take your point. I can’t even comment on your post because you’re right of course.

    It’s easy to lose sight of the wood for the trees etc. Next Blitz Week I am gonna focus on Getting Laid (from cold approach).

    GREAT PLAN!!! if you’re doing it right, you’ll feel like a walking hardon/horn dog … lol

    just get your logistics locked down before you even leave your room to sarge…

    I’m very proud of you for the progess that you’ve made… you put in the work and it shows… you just need a little push out of the nest… FLY, little birdie, FLY!!!!! (note the 5!!!!!…lol)

    good luck!

  64. @ Blax

    re: loony society

    Warren Zevon – Life’ll Kill Ya (written a few years before he died of mesothelioma, and a couple years before he was aware he had the disease)

    “You’ve got an invalid haircut
    And it hurts when you smile
    You better get out of town
    Before your nickname expires

    It’s the kingdom of the spiders
    It’s the empire of the ants
    You need a permit to walk around downtown
    You need a license to dance

    Life’ll kill ya
    That’s what I said
    Life’ll kill ya
    And then you’ll be dead
    Life’ll find you
    Wherever you go

    Recquiescat in pace, that’s all she wrote

    From the president of the United States
    To the lowliest rock and roll star
    The doctor is in, and he’ll see you now
    He don’t care who you are

    Some get the awful, awful diseases
    Some get the knife
    Some get the gun
    And some get to die in their sleep
    At the age of a hundred and one

    Life’ll kill ya
    That’s what I said
    Life’ll kill ya
    Then you’ll be dead
    Life’ll find you
    Wherever you go
    Recquiescat in pace, that’s all she wrote

    Maybe you’ll go to heaven
    See Uncle Al and Uncle Lou
    Or maybe you’ll be reincarnated
    Maybe that stuff’s true

    Maybe if you were good
    You’ll come back as someone nice
    And maybe if you were bad
    You’ll have to pay the price

    Life’ll kill ya
    That’s what I said
    Life’ll kill ya
    Then you’ll be dead
    Life’ll find you
    Wherever you go

    Recquiescat in pace, that’s all she wrote

  65. Rollo, Niko, thanks for this discussion on Frame. The concept is logical and intuitive, and I can see its application during periods of my life when success just happened ‘naturally’. In reality that ‘natural’ feeling was because I was living in a disciplined way towards goals that excited me far more than the transitory pleasures of women or partying. They became things I could pick up and put down rather than a focus or in any way influential of my work at the time.

    It becomes clear to me now that my difficulty over the last few years is related to living in a frame of mental illness– I can maintain that until the cows come home but it isn’t a positive or attractive way to live. The first step is attempting to conquer or control the depression and anhedonia, then I can worry about the power dynamics of relationships.

  66. @HABD – replying here.

    Epiphany chick: lost cause I think. Setup a meet a couple months ago which failed on logistics (she refused to come to my part of town and I refused to go to her part of town, partly because it was crappy logistics for the lay and partly because it would have been falling into her frame to agree to change plans like that).

    Since then I think she’s deleted my number on Whatsapp, but I’m not sure. I’ll try a ping message next month when I’m back Blitzing.

    Thanks for holding me accountable generally (along with the other guys here). Without someone to kick my ass, it’s just easy to spin wheels or obsess over irrelevancies (most recently trying for an arbitrary target of approaches when each new approach didn’t teach me much).

    From 1.5 years ago when you started telling me that the reason more girls were checking me out in clubs was because my subcomms had improved (which I somehow found hard to fully accept), to having a golden streak of lays (for free obvs) with a bunch of sugar babies last year, to trying to pivot to focussing on cold approach this year, to my 20 minute lay a couple months ago, to now completing the pivot to cold approach focus (stopped online dating completely now – even my old pipeline is finished) and focussing on getting laid instead of technique just for the sake of technique..it really helps.

  67. BTW, I should add that at some point I want to go back to Tinder (which I only used a little before – nowhere near the extent I was using sugar sites) and figure out a way to nail it.

    More as a side experimental project when I have free time in my “down time” city than any attempt to replace cold approach. The cold approach stuff is very much my priority when I’m in the big city, but when I have some down time I want to figure out why I suck so much on Tinder.

    I know that being average(ish) looking AND in my 30s means my Tinder effectiveness will be bad, but mine is absolutely TERRIBLE, and not just with young hotties, but even with post-wall chicks who are desperate to hook up with a guy like me. It’s utterly incongruent to the reactions I get in real life and I want to figure out why.

    I know chodey guys my age who are doing better and I’m not sure why. I’m not comparing myself to the results Chads get – even compared to what I hear from my friends, the results are terrible.

    I’m good at converting matches and messaging (the sugar dating experience taught me that), but the problem is I get virtually no matches. If I go on a swiping spree and swipe a couple hundred girls a day, I get (maybe) 1 match a day in a big city, and about 50% of the matches are bots anyway. If I only swipe a dozen or so every day (ie, just staying active and swiping for girls who swipe me first), then results are near-zero.

    Like I said, I know my Tinder results will be worse than my real-life results for all the reasons we’ve discussed here in detail, but I find it hard to believe it will be this much worse – and I want to figure out why – is it my pictures? Is it the fact that the “jerkboy” profile turns off post-wall chicks looking for a provider and the younger girls never even see my profile because of the age difference? Do I need better pictures? What?

    PS – Same thing applies to POF, OKC and other free dating sites. Even the landwhales barely reply. It’s only on sugar sites that I get any kind of decent reaction and that’s from much hotter girls.

    I know it’s difficult for people to comment without seeing my profile – it’s more just me thinking aloud really..

  68. @culum

    Consider changing the age on your profile. If you are over 35 you will be filtered out by a lot of chicks who would get along well if you approached then directly.

  69. @Culum

    Honestly, online dating is a dead-end. Getting better at it would be like investing in stocks from a VHS company. It is going to get more and more difficult as more and more guys are on it (I’d say if you look at the phone of 18-35yo single guys, around 75% have Tinder installed).

    You are competing with a whole city basically, in a context when girls are super choosy (sitting at home on a sunday night, in a serious mood vs in a club on a friday night when they are carried away by their emotions).

    Also the dynamic is not in your favor from the start : you NEED tinder to get laid (no offence, you are a guy, you don’t do it for the attention) whereas she MIGHT CHOSE to use Tinder to kill boredom, chat and get attention. Not the ideal setup!

    You are doing great in cold approach, I would suggest putting all your mental energy on that, even if you don’t have girls at your disposal, like what Hank is doing, just practicing being social, spiking BT etc. These are skills that will really make a difference IMO

    Just my 2 cents!

  70. BPD relationships can teach you a lot about Frame. So can childhood abuse, neglect in particular. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that those two are kind of a match made in hell.

    What I went through in my childhood, IMO, is what has *not only* so severely delayed my ability to develop Frame, *but also* so severely delayed my ability to recognize other people’s Frame.

    I’m not trying to imply “Poor me,” but a literal developmental disability. In that Frame is a natural part of the human experience, and social isolation, e.g. through parental neglect and lack of friends/normal social experiences growing up, you can be effectively semi-retarded as an adult, in terms of your social development.

    Last night when I showed my friend text message exchanges with my girlfriend, I was shocked. I’ve talked about it on here, but for privacy reasons have not shared actual messages and exchanges, and would always paraphrase, just to be safe.

    To see his reaction…

    (“Holy shit,” “I can’t understand how you’ve done this for this long, I would’ve been done in less than a week of this,” “This is blatantly abusive,” “This is blatantly manipulative,” “It’s not even subtle, what she’s doing is so blatantly obvious, she is really, really sick and needs help” “I have no idea how you’ve lasted this long, this is insane” “I’M being affected strongly by this and I’m just reading these messages, I don’t even know her”)

    …was a huge eye opener.

    I didn’t realize it was this bad. Very similar to what I went through with my parents growing up: it was NOT normal, it was NOT healthy, and in fact was extremely abusive, neglectful, traumatic and damaging.

    But there was no one to step in, no one to say otherwise, no one to tell me that what was going on in my house was NOT NORMAL and NOT HEALTHY.

    Rollo’s example of the “overbearing father” just made me think of how I felt like I had NO father. Or mother for that matter. How can you learn about Frame when there is no relationship with your parents growing up? If there’s no interaction and they just ignore you and it’s like you don’t exist?

    So I grew up into an EXTREMELY naive adult, and a big part of that is Frame mostly having been a mystery to me.

    It’s only JUST starting to sink in that I’m in this girl’s BPD frame. And this is after a YEAR of dating her exclusively. Despite all the *extensive* advice I’ve gotten here, it didn’t really start to “click” until last night when I showed one of my friends some text message exchanges, and he flipped out, completely amazed at what he was reading.

    I don’t think there’s a substitute for that, really. Part of why advice here has been hard for me to take is because I’ve paraphrased a lot, and wondered if I was really truthfully representing what was going on in the relationship.

    Showing someone actual messages as they were happening is pretty straightforward and can’t be misinterpreted. So I had a kind of “Aha” moment with that.

    I didn’t mean to go on a tangent here. But RP parenting came to mind, and then my own experiences with neglect, and how devastating I think childhood neglect can be on a person’s Frame.

    But to end on a positive note: true healing is rooted in first knowing where you are. Once you recognize what the problem is, then you can work on fixing it.

    And what I’ve been thinking lately is neglect is so devastating to children because it impairs their ability to not only develop a Frame for themselves, but to recognize when they’re in someone else’s Frame or not.

    If you don’t get the necessary stimulation growing up, and the experience of ‘back and forth’ with Frame pushing and pulling, in a healthy way, you’re going to have a hard time as an adult functioning in the world with other people. In neglect, there’s nothing to push against and nothing to be pulled into. It’s just like a vacuum and it’s impossible to internalize anything about social interaction when you’re socially isolated.

    Anyway, as adults, the best we can do is to be aware of our issues so they don’t blindside us.

    So for me, I’ve been practicing HARD at recognizing other people’s Frame. It’s very foreign to me. I have to stop and think and remember scenarios so I can analyze them and then be like….oh, okay, so this is that person’s Frame.

    It’s frustrating, but that’s why these discussions are important.

    I do agree that Frame should be inherent, and second nature, but the reality is a lot of people, especially men, are so fucked up that they need to take time to study and pay attention to these things, and it’ll take them a while before Frame (and recognizing other people’s Frame) becomes second nature.

  71. @culum, klem, eve

    Did you see this:

    https://news.unt.edu/news-releases/men-have-highest-risk-low-self-esteem-while-using-tinder-unt-study-finds

    “We thought females would the most strongly, and adversely, be affected by using Tinder, particularly given the extent to which women adopt societal beauty ideals,” said Petrie. “The fact that male and female Tinder users reported similar levels of psychological distress was surprising.”

    Among the other results:

    Regardless of gender, Tinder users reported less psychosocial well-being and more indicators of body dissatisfaction than non-users.

    Tinder users’ self-worth reports were relatively equal for both genders – with the exception of lower male self-esteem, as noted above. The researchers believe Tinder may be destabilizing traditional gender norms and leveling the dating playing field, making men as likely to be exploited as women.

    The lower male self-esteem may result from the “emotionally vulnerable” position many men are subjected to on Tinder and the ability of women to be discerning of potential matches. More men use Tinder, and past reports show that men are three times more likely to “swipe right,” opening them up to harmful experiences such as rejection and ghosting. Ghosting occurs when a romantic interest suddenly ignores and/or ends all contact without explanation.

    Even for men with relatively high self-esteem, “the current Tinder system does not appear to work in their favor.”

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