The Key Masters

keymaster

In last week’s comments Not Born This Morning dropped this comment in the last thread:

It has been said and it seems fairly well established as a presumed reality that “Women are the gate keepers to sex and men are the gate keepers to commitment”. This model of gender specific “gatekeeping” seems to be the most widely accepted model in the red pill community and the general culture accepts it readily. This model seems rational enough, it significantly forms our frame of understanding about gender dynamics upon which we base our interpretations of behavior & intents, and our decisions to act. But is it the best model to explain what is really going on? Could this model be inferior in that it fails to account for an underlying more fundamental motivator? Is there a more accurate explanation for women’s intents and behaviors? Could this model be potentially deceptive?

The sex side of this model is simple and easy to understand. It is very clear and specific to the fundamental biologic. It is inarguable, not negotiable. The primary drive motivating the sexual aspect is not political or social. It is biological. This is not the case with the commitment side. The commitment side is primary to the political and social realm. “Commitments” are always components of contracts written or otherwise.

To comprehend what I’m about to explain, we must first agree on the primary definition of commitment. As I understand it, a commitment is a pledge to do something, a proclamation to perform certain action (or inaction) within a specific context for the benefit of another usually in exchange for some consideration. In the sexual context women seek “commitment” from a man primarily for provisioning and sexual exclusivity. The man “commits” to the woman that he will abandon his freedom and not enter into sexual relations with other women. He pledges himself financially and sexually to her exclusively. Realistically, this form of “commitment” includes the man abandoning his options. If he becomes sexually involved with another woman, it is widely considered that he has “broken his commitment” and he is dishonored by her and society for “breaking the commitment”. But, has he really broken any commitment other than a self denigrating pledge to forgo his freedom and abandon his options? Since obviously the male imperative is polygamy and spreading his seed, then isn’t the imposition to “commit” in the first place really a dishonor of his sexuality and a dishonor to him? If so, isn’t “commitment” in this context nothing more than a form of enslavement?

So by saying men are the “gate keepers of commitment” aren’t we really saying that men are the “gatekeepers of their own enslavement”?

I’ve read this line of thought from various MGTOW hardliners in various iterations and I’ve even written a post on the concept of commitment  and what it does or doesn’t mean to a man. The idea is to equate committing to a woman with some irrational agreement to self-induced slavery. However, the problem most men have with commitment is that the old set of books has a social mandate for men to keep their word or honor an agreement. It’s what men do. Say what you mean and stick to it, but as with most every uniquely male custom, Honor among men has been one more useful distortion of the Feminine Imperative.

As I mentioned in the Paradox of Commitment, men don’t have nearly the fear of commitment our feminized social order would have us believe. Men aren’t “commit-o-phones” when it comes to military service or dedicating themselves to a business. These are the areas the women’s magazines conveniently overlook when it comes to comparing men’s commitment with committing to women in monogamy. I’m bringing this up because it’s important to see how men commit to things other than fidelity to a single woman.

If we’re going to equate monogamous fidelity to a woman with slavery we also need to see how other commitments can be viewed as being, or not being, slavery. Is the commitment of military service slavery? Particularly if you know have a pretty good idea of what to expect from that commitment? Are you volunteering for slavery if you start a business and become financially beholden to it?

From  the Paradox of Commitment:

You can even take marriage out of the equation; if I’m in a committed LTR with a GF and over the course of that relationship I realize that she’s not what I’m looking for (for any number of reasons, not just sex), even though she’s 100% faithfully committed to me and the LTR, should I then break that commitment? If I do, am I then being unethical for having broken that commitment irrespective of how I break it? Should the commitment to my own personal well being and future happiness be compromised by another commitment?

What’s my obligation; neglect myself in favor of a bad commitment or to the principle of commitment itself?

It’s my take that commitment ‘should’ be a function of genuine desire. Ideally, commitment should be to something one is so passionate about that the limiting of one’s own future opportunities that come from that commitment is an equitable, and mutually appreciated trade. This is, unfortunately, rarely the case for most people in any form of commitment because people, circumstance, opportunity and conditions are always in flux. A commitment that had been seen as equitable sacrifice at one time can become debilitating 5 years after it depending upon circumstance.

Under the old social contract, the idea that a man would compromise his sexual strategy to fulfill a woman’s (Hypergamy in the long term) had a presumed exchange – sexual access, parental investment, companionship, a good, supportive feminine role example for the kids, etc. – that made the commitment of marriage at least somewhat appealing, if not entirely equitable. I supposed a case could still be made that even under the old order of conventional gender roles and expectations men were still committing themselves to a downside bargain. But in our new, feminine-primary social order, with our broader communication, it’s certainly signing up for slavery of a sort in comparison to the options available being single.

A lot of guys think that by my advising men to spin plates and remain as non-exclusive as possible that its sole purpose is to free them up to indiscriminately bang as many women as possible. While sexual variety maybe an upside to non-exclusivity, there are many more freedoms and options that a non-exclusive man can invest himself in where committed men cannot, or wouldn’t even think to.

So yes, from a male sexual strategy perspective, and considering the terms of that commitment and consequences of breaking it are all glaringly apparent, signing up for that commitment might be assigning yourself to a kind of slavery. Under our present social conditions, staying single might be as good as it gets for men.

However, that said, there is still an undeniable, idealistic, hope that men can make the best of a marriage. Most men (see the 80% Beta men) still remarry in far greater margins than women, even after horrific divorces. We can attribute that to the sustainability of men’s sexual market value lasting longer than women’s, but the desire to want for a lasting monogamy is what I’m getting at. Even in light of the fact that women are hardwired for Hypergamy, and in light of women’s inability to appreciate the sacrifices men must make to facilitate their realities, men still, sooner or later, have a desire to lock down or otherwise wife-up a woman he idealizes. I have read the testimonies of men who will go to any length to stay in a marriage if even the outside hope of it improving exists.

I think this desire might be both a conditional and innate drive in men.

In Mrs. Hyde I quoted a study by Dr. Martie Haselton from Why is muscularity sexy? :

According to strategic pluralism theory (Gangestad & Simpson, 2000), men have evolved to pursue reproductive strategies that are contingent on their value on the mating market. More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.

It’s entirely possible that a man’s sexual strategy is the simple result of his adapting to his circumstance.

Under the old social order, prior to the upheaval of the sexual revolution and feminine social primacy, investing heavily in one’s mate made good sense if the guy wanted to procreate. As men, I think we still want to apply more value to our commitment in this respect. I think it gets back to the fallacy of relational equity, but because most Blue Pill men believe that there is value in their committing to a woman, and they falsely think that women have the capacity to appreciate it, we tend to build more into it as some kind of mutually understood relationship leverage.

Gatekeepers

Back before Roosh began making his necessities into virtues, he had a pretty good insight about women being “gatekeepers” of both sex and commitment:

A popular manosphere saying is that women are gatekeepers to sex and men are gatekeepers to commitment. I wish this was an absolute truth, but it’s not. As a collective, women are often gatekeepers to both sex and commitment. Most men reading right now can surely attest to their failed attempts to secure commitment from women they slept with, and if you poll the entire population of men, you may find that they are the initiators of monogamous relationships more often than women. It only makes sense for this to be true: it is way more damaging for a man to have his woman sleep with another man and get cuckolded than the other way around. The 0.5% of the population who are skilled players and have more say with commitment don’t put a dent into this common reality. As a sex, men have very little say in determining the relationship dynamic.

[…]It would be a nice fantasy for us men to believe that we have a say in relationships and sex. It’d be nice to think that our “alpha” behavior and our game determines how a relationship can proceed, but often it doesn’t. We’re just giving the girl what she has already decided on. Do you really think you’re selling televisions to customers who came into the store with the intent to buy bicycles? The girl who falls in love with us wanted to fall in love with us, the girl who had fun with us wanted to just have fun with us, and so on. And even when a girl wants a bicycle, she still wants a certain kind of bicycle. This is why game is a numbers game, because girls are incredibly picky even when they are sexually available. The horniest girl in the club who decided on having sex will still have her pick of the litter and opt to get the best that she can.

From the perspective of men using Game to secure some kind of commitment with a woman, I’d agree, it is a numbers game. But, in general, most men aren’t learning PUA/Game to settle into an LTR and most Red Pill aware men (should) understand the nature of women well enough to leverage Game if (ever) they do look for commitment.

Roosh was correct about men not really being gatekeepers of commitment though. I think there’s a definite want on the part of guys to believe that they have some sort of leverage in the ultimate scheme of things. The Feminine Imperative constantly conditions men to think that their commitment to a woman is something insanely valuable to women. Thus, we see shaming tactics designed to call men out for avoiding commitment irrespective of men’s reasons for wanting to take precautions. This has the effect of conditioning men to think that they are the gatekeepers of something valuable.

In a sense, commitment is something valuable to a woman, however, in the age of Open Hypergamy and Strong Independent Women®, the writing is on the wall for men with regard to the convenient need for that commitment at the end-game phase of a woman’s sexual market value. So yes, a man’s commitment to monogamy with a woman has inherent value, but men are hardly the gatekeepers of it when it is a woman who does the deciding as to whether any one guy’s commitment makes any difference to her.

So, we come to a question of comparative equity with regard to men “signing up for slavery” and how inherently valuable his commitment (as convenient as it’s needed) really is to a woman. I have no doubt there are several women reading this right now who are in “relationship limbo” with a guy they desperately want to commit to them in some official capacity. And no doubt they’ll drop a story in the comments personalizing it to be typical of men, but I would argue Roosh’s point that men are the initiators of monogamous relationships far more often than women. Ironically, commitment only has value to a woman when it’s denied to her by a man who’s SMV outclasses her own.

For obvious reasons, highly desirable women, women at the peak of their sexual market valuation, are always the least concerned with men’s capacity to commit. They largely have the luxury to be selective, but furthermore the time at which women are at their highest SMV is usually the point at which men are still building upon their own. Eventually, commitment only has an appreciable value to a woman when she is most in need of it; when her SMV is in decline.

I should also point out that men, the majority being Blue Pill Betas, are the most necessitous of a woman’s commitment when she is at her highest, his is an unproven commodity, and he appreciates the value of a woman’s commitment. Thus, most men look for a stable monogamy in their early to mid 20s, while more mature men who’ve had time to build their SMV into their mid to late thirties tend to be less concerned with monogamy. This is why we hear the constant drone of women bemoaning that highly valuable, supposedly peer-equitable men’s unwillingness to commit and settle down with women aging out of the sexual marketplace. Women are far less concerned with the commitment-readiness of young, unproven men who themselves would commit to even a women in the mid-range of her SMV.

At the end here, I think it’s time Red Pill men disabuse themselves of the idea that they are the ‘gatekeepers’ of commitment, and rather employ their internalized Red Pill awareness and Game to be the ‘key masters’ of women. While I have no doubt that commitment can be a carrot on the stick for some women, the problem really lies in how that commitment is in anyway valuable and balance that knowledge with the fact that commitment, once given, becomes valueless and taken for granted when it’s established. The fact that you’d commit to a woman isn’t something that carries a relationship, no matter how badly she wanted it from you before.

There really is no quid pro quo when it comes to commitment or value in believing you’re a gatekeeper of it.

Law 20
Do Not Commit to Anyone

It is the fool who always rushes to take sides. Do not commit to any side or cause but yourself. By maintaining your independence, you become the master of others – playing people against one another, making them pursue you.

780 comments

  1. Women make babies.
    Men make Civilization.

    Without Women, Mankind dies.
    Without Men, Mankind reverts to nothing more than very smart animals.

    But there’s a catch. Women care nothing for Civilization. A woman’s life is consumed by sexual desire for her one-true Alpha-love, and the empty chattering with other women that composes everything important in her thoughts and actions. Even her children are nothing more than an afterthought.

    Men, by contrast, can be happy in nearly sexless, nearly loveless lives, totally devoted to the maintenance of Civilization. If they’re Betas. And if Civilization itself spurns them?

    They burn it all to the ground and revert everything back to animalism. Who’s to stop them? Civilization only exists because they themselves wish it so. And when their great love betrays them, they destroy it. With finality.

    And those Betas are both the only ones whi truly understand that, and the only ones who care.

  2. Men are neither Gatekeepers or Keyholders to commitment, we are the Gatekeepers and Keyholders of Civilization. Men have always worked for the safety of the community in mind, women their pecking order within it… It’s all really about options, if a woman “Feels” she has no better options or opportunities, she will stick around. If she does, she’ll execute one of those options as soon as she’s able to do so. It might be minutes or years before this happens, but once that transference is made to another man, your commitment is seen as having no further value.

  3. What is left out of all this is that it is possible for a woman to commit. And such commitment is vital to a good LTR.

    My mother (born in 1919) did it with my Dad after a few years of shit testing. It is a skill unavailable to most modern women. I’m trying to teach it to the LTR. I get the occasional success.

  4. The relational commitment of men is insanely valuable to society as a whole

    It’s of no real value to and particular individual woman

    As Rollo points out. I’ve had as many bitches ghost on me after a ONS as I have ghosted on them

  5. I’ve had a very interesting situation develop. It’s been 17 months since I hard nexted the crazy ex. For guys like Softek who are struggling, this is an important milestone to consider.

    For guys like Hank and Culum who are now killing it and up-skilling their game, take note of my rotation and plate spinning and how to avoid over-gaming.

    I have 3 in rotation, two are in their early 20’s, one is 28. Guess which one of the 3 has caused me to MOST drama?

    The theory and realities are very much aligned. Not everything is identical to the case studies in each of Rollo’s original posts but in my case, the more I take on a Zero Fuck’s Given attitude the better I do.

    I’ll focus on the 28 year old first. I’ve nexted her. She was a great bang. But… She didn’t do a lot of nice things for me. She took up a disproportionate amount of my emotional time with constant texts and then her ‘waif-like’ behavior requires strength to ignore: her various health scares including thinking she was going deaf and claiming she might be pregnant—only to come out and drink and party. I’ve had to drop her.

    The point of all of this is that Red Pill Awareness is a reality filter. Things don’t tend to get better with certain women and no amount of game will change that. The mistake I think many Blue Pill guys make is by agreeing to the demands of these girls for equality or to be a “boyfriend”—they get locked into a role where the girl constantly demands more and knows your weak points and plays on them

    I still struggle with emotions like anger or jealousy and have to fight my Blue Pill thinking about certain behaviours a girl displays and reading more into them than what they’re really all about.

    In terms of commitment—girls in their early 20’s don’t seem to care and in fact prefer that I’m busy or possibly with other girls because when we meet up it makes that time “seem” more valuable.

  6. “Ironically, commitment only has value to a woman when it’s denied to her by a man who’s SMV outclasses her own.”

    Biggest takeaway.

  7. MEN AND COMMITMENT

    Today’s male commitment in civilization has taken on two extra roles that his ancestors never faced.

    1) Men rarely dealt with offspring before they walked, that was the women’s responsibility. As a matter of fact, all monkey/ape species have their infants in their arm or clinging to their fur 24/7 until they can walk, this includes todays hunter gatherers. In addition, children were considered their own beings. They were largely autonomous once they could walk on their own. Only then did the men step in and teach them the ways of man. The only knowledge children needed was how to survive in the wild and some tribal rituals.

    Today? Due to the higher expected standard of living, a incredible amount of knowledge necessary to infuse into a kid’s head, the need to supervise kids 24/7, the new age where both parents must work, the ever increasing delay into the workforce, child care requirements have increased immensely for men that they never faced in their evolutionary history.

    2) As I stated in my article “Baby Rabies and The Epiphany Phase Never Used to Exist”, when women became sexually unviable, they weren’t thrown away, they simply transferred to the grandmother role to help the next generation of women and children. Tribes were socialized care and low standard of living.

    Today? Marriage is a lifetime contract where you’re supposed to directly support her and never go for different vagina for the rest of your life despite the fact you’re capable of more attractive prospects due to your late blooming smv (conpared to women). Once she’s 35-40, what now? If you’re like most modern men, you got her in her late 20’s. You only got to experience her least attractive years of her youth then left with the leftovers despite the fact other men enjoyed her young teen years with no commitment. You’re stuck for life unless you’re willing to risk divorce court or risk family court where they’re likely to siphon much of your money and assets.

    What was once a tribal responsibility, now solely lies on your shoulders. Every single generation, man is expected to work harder for less money and take on more responsibility for less power all for less and less reward. We’re beginning to become male penguins who go through all that bullshit just so the chick will hatch.

    This is not even considering how you’re forced to handover your children to the state for 8hrs a day, five days a week, 8 months of the year where they brainwash them.

    MALE GATEKEEPERS

    She’s not yours, it’s just your turn. Men are delusional if they believe they are in control. Women rule the sexual market for the majority of mankind outside the top 10%. End of discussion. I have lived long enough and binge watched enough animal documentaries to see it. We humans aren’t different. The only exceptions to rule are harem animals such as: gorillas, hippos, and lions. The dynamic is different for them. Females need commitment if they wish to ensure their offspring’s survival because every new alpha male that enters the picture kills the offspring of the previous and none of the females are strong enough to prevent and in addition, by definition of a harem species, no other male is in the vicinity to prevent it, and if they are, they don’t care. For this reason, females happily fall in line for the new boss.

    If you are not in a harem species, or not in the top 10%, women rule the sexual market unless you’re willing to rape. But we’re a pack species. The only time rape is allowed is females not in the tribe, specifically when you’re overtaking another. Watch the animal documenteries on Netflix. All male animals not apart of a harem species and not in the top 10% is clown games.

    Men dont control shit in the SMP. The only thing they can control is themselves. They can pursue women with self-respect, but our current social climate is built so that you have little to no say in guaranteeing the outcome. Men aren’t even allowed to control their wife’s fidelity and behavior that was meant to be enforced by the marriage contract while she can do whatever the hell she wants. Raids rarely happen (unless you’re in poor areas or have rapefugees) and rape is illegal, not to mention the extra tyrannical laws regarding men and sexual relations. Men outside of the 10% are clowns. Dance monkey dance.

  8. No man “committing” to a girl raised in 2016 culture is in a monogamous LTR. He’s in a one-sided pLTR (Primary LTR, a primary partner with multiple orbiters/side-poon) but in the GIRL’S favor (aka she keeps her options available while he restricts his own).

    Social media and women out of the kitchen and into the workplace etc creates a system where women can openly gather and string orbiters along and openly seek higher-value options than her current man and this is socially acceptable because it’s all done under the guise of “just being friends” or anonymity.

    If her significant other tries to restrict her access to that stuff, he’s labelled controlling, insecure, jealous, abusive, etc And if the guy keeps his own options open, he’s a player, cheat, unfaithful, emotionally abusive, etc

    In the old days, before modern technology (especially before phones were invented but even in, like, the 50s say), a woman had to go out of her way to gather and keep orbiters around. It took actual effort and even if she went out looking she really only had access to a handful of men besides her husband. Once she determined that he was her best option, her Hypergamy was satisfied enough to make a relationship work long-term. That doesn’t mean women didn’t cheat, or weren’t subconsciously still on the prowl for some mysterious high-value stranger who passes through town, but like, it was significantly more difficult to entertain that shit (plus she had other shit to do with her day, like keeping the house/family taken care of before modern technology turned cooking, laundry, cleaning, etc into short often automated tasks that give her tons of free time to be bored).

    But today’s technology means that a girl can be dating the greatest catch in her social circle, but still potentially have access to an even higher value guy through her social media. And if she switches to that guy, when he’s sitting on the couch beside her being boring, she can be communicating with a AAA celebrity through her social media.

    Hypergamy doesn’t “shut off”, it NEVER sleeps…it’s ALWAYS there, always pinging for value. If you can keep her away from other men that don’t necessarily HAVE higher-value than you but that she PERCEIVES *MAY* have higher-value than you in HER value system of what constitutes high-value (which causes her to feel that compelling instinctive urge to test to SEE if he is juuuust incase he IS and she should pursue him), then you have a shot. But all the actions that would help that are demonized and villified as controlling, abusive, etc thanks to feminism pushing for Open Hypergamy and Open Cuckolding. This is why they’ll keep pushing that stuff trying to program boys from an early age so that it’s normalized to them when they’re adults and they don’t question the arrangement where they give up all their options while the girl says she does but is still pinging for better in the background thanks to the technology that’s made that abundant, easy and discreet (and connected her to astronomically high-value males like celebrities).

    The ruse is that a relationship where a man gives up all his options and is sexually faithful to a woman, while the woman is sexually faithful to him (for now) but is constantly subconsciously on the prowl for better (because social media and being in male spaces like male workplaces and hobbies) under an “innocent” frame of “oh that’s just some guy from work, it’s no big deal, why are you getting jealous don’t be so insecure!”, is still “a monogamous relationship”.

    That’s NOT a monoLTR. That is a pLTR in the woman’s favor. No guy dating/settling with a girl in 2016 is settling into a “monogamous LTR”, he’s settling into a “pLTR in the woman’s favor”. Like, guys need to really let that concept sink in.

    The only guys in ACTUAL monoLTRs are guys who’s significant others don’t (or barely) use social media (so a lot of guys with older wives which is why I stress the raised in 2016 culture thing, or if you can find like, an Amish girl lol), and/or don’t (or barely) spend time in male spaces around other men (like working at a place where she’s surrounded by high-value men).

    Literally any girl with social media is only offering guys a pLTR in her favor, but everyone in society including the man agreeing to it will still call it a monoLTR, and that man will find himself frustrated that she has orbiters posting/flirting on her Facebook wall but will then realize he’s in a Kobayashi Maru when he tries to call her out on it and is labelled jealous/insecure for it…he won’t be able to articulate it unless he’s a Red Pill guy and even then it depends on how much of the pill he’s swallowed, but he’ll instinctively know that him sitting on the couch watching Netflix while she sits beside him surfing Facebook and responding to guys on her Facebook wall, that something isn’t “right” with that agreement he’s entered. Because it’s lopsided in her favor.

    This is why I’m pushing for guys to understand and explore the dynamics of how pLTRs and oLTRs work, and how oLTRs naturally become pLTRs if you can keep her Hypergamy triggered, and just REQUIRING a pLTR from her already puts you near the top of her Hypergamous options because it’s giving her all the shit she needs (dread, jealousy, etc) and giving you all the shit you need (sexworthiness, charisma to flirt with other girls, abundance mentality to walk away, etc) for her to stay attracted to you.

    And it’s why I’m pushing for guys to start experimenting with pLTRs so we can get more guys in them and get more guys thinking about how we can successfully have and raise kids in a pLTR (in the man’s favor) arrangement with no legal ties and possibly accepting the fact that women may not stay past the 7 year itch and prepare for accepting that and prospering within the new system.

    Because the old system is DEAD. MonoLTRs don’t exist anymore. I can’t re-state that enough.

    Unless you can keep your girl jobless in your home and off all forms of social media (even the seemingly innocent ones that are for hobby groups or business networking etc)…which with a 20+yo girl in 2016 with a huge social network, is pretty unrealistic (her friends/family (who are all in shitty relationships themselves) will likely view you as abusive and be trying to turn her against you to “save” her from the horror that is your relationship actually having a chance at working out lol). You may manage to make an “LTR” work in 2016 with a girl raised in 2016 culture, but understand that unless you’re pro-actively running a pLTR in your favor, you are making a “pLTR in her favor” work, not a “monoLTR”.

    This is a big part of why marriage is a bad deal. Even if you marry a chick who doesn’t use social media, and get her to quit her job to be a housewife, when she’s sitting around at home all day long bored out of her mind, she’s VERY likely going to end up getting social media to have some kind of contact with the outside world, and now you’re legally tied to a pLTR in her favor. The best you can do is even the odds out with your own girls, but you’ve signed legal paperwork handing her all the power in the world to destroy your life if you miscalibrate at some point in the next 40+ years.

    How to have a pLTRs in more depth:

    http://yareallyarchive.com/2015/8/#comment-rationalmale-114069

    And none of this is even taking into account the social conditioning girls are receiving from an early age telling them boyfriends and commitment and monogamy are all a drag that keeps you from having fun going to Avicii concerts with your BFF girlfriends and hooking up with guys and you’ll be young forever and Amy Schumer gets the rich doctor when she’s 35 and shit:

    inb4 the badasses come out of the wordwork to brag that their 40+yo wife raised in the pre-social media age doesn’t use any social media and if you’re just alpha enough none of this will have any effect and she’ll just sit on the couch at home all day with the computer off, no phone, and just stare at a photo of you thinking about how wonderful you are and you totally know it because this one 21yo you were seeing for a few months totally didn’t even check her phone when she was with you so that totally extrapolates to a 40+ year marriage full of lulls of boredom and fights and negative emotions and your value fluctuating to her as you deal with shit life throws at you lol

  9. @YaReally: The Red Pill is critical to overcoming exactly that paradox driven by the Feminist Imperative: Commit to one girl=beta spin multiple plates: player/pua, bad prospect.

    The Oribter thing is a problem for me. A few girls I’ve committed to in the past ALWAYS plugged into orbiters. I did not handle it well laying down my expectations. It always created tension and it’s exactly what these girls wanted to keep me in a sort of lock-down.

    They didn’t really like the orbiters and may or may not have banged them (as in the case of the crazy ex who knows) but when I finally clearly demonstrated I didnt’ care by walking away….the orbiter disappeared. Funny that.

    Or in one case when I broke up suddenly it was a full confession: “I didn’t mean it…it was nothing…. blah blah blah”.

    I have to say that when a girl I’m seeing or banging has orbiters I usually have to end it.

    The other side of this coin—-girls are always trying to turn me into an orbiter: a dinner companion, texting buddy, dance partner. Unless I’m banging them or I genuinely like them, get status from being in their company—there is no joy in being an orbiter.

    The pre-game me was always an orbiter or found myself in an orbiter role.

  10. @walawala
    “The Oribter thing is a problem for me. A few girls I’ve committed to in the past ALWAYS plugged into orbiters.”

    They always will from now on, because social media has made it so effortless to do so. By the time you meet her she’ll already have a huge stable of them. Whether they’re actual threats or not doesn’t matter, most of them won’t be but she has them all there to keep her guy from thinking he can “wrong” her (oh man if she gets mad at me and we break up all these other guys will move in on her), but they’re all just a distraction to keep a guy from realizing that she’s keeping all those channels open because they may lead her to a legitimately better option than her current guy, even if she isn’t consciously aware of it (which most of the time she isn’t).

    The thing I think the Red Pill community has to understand, especially this upcoming generation that is looking at dating/settling with these 2016 social media culture, male work/hobby-space participating, etc HOT “high-value” (confident, social, fun, etc) girls is that orbiters are NOT OPTIONAL ANYMORE.

    Like even in the old PUA literature, orbiters come across as this “it might happen here and there” thing. Like, she may have a couple orbiters, or you may run into one, or maybe she has a highschool friend who has a crush on her. But overall if your value was high enough, there was no social media or cell phones so keeping more than a handful of close orbiters around was a bit of a hassle.

    But that’s changed. Orbiters come part and parcel with the girls now. And not just a couple orbiters, but anywhere from 10-1000s depending on her social media engagement and career, and it’s ever-expanding and will continue to expand as long as she has downtime and access to the technology she grew up conditioned to view as a normal part of daily life (again guys with old chicks are generally excluded from this).

    So what I want guys to understand is that when you agree to “monogamous commitment”, you are no longer entering a monoLTR where she might have a couple annoying orbiters you can dismiss effortlessly. You are entering a lopsided pLTR in her favor where you are giving up your options and she will ENDLESSLY GATHER MORE AND MORE OPTIONS CONSTANTLY PINGING FOR HIGHER VALUE THAN YOU.

    This has to be burned into guys head. I don’t care if a guy enters a raw deal if he’s decided he wants to, he can stack the deck against himself if he wants, as long as he understands exactly what he’s getting into.

    In 2016 a girl with social media or work/hobbies full of men, is ONLY offering you a pLTR in her favor, she’s not offering you a monoLTR. She may be sexually faithful to you for a while, but her Hypergamy is always pinging for better and social media and feminist culture has given her ALL THE TOOLS AND AVENUES SHE COULD EVER WANT to help her ping wider, farther, faster, more discreetly, and for astronomically better than some housewife in <1950

    Like, we shouldn't even be seeing "ya it was annoying, this girl had so many orbiters". That should just be EXPECTED now and guys should be learning how to handle it optimally (ie – learn to do pLTRs so that, as walawala shows, you can easily walk and get her to chase, and stay attractive because you keep your options open and never let the cat actually get the dangling string except for moments here and there).

    We have to completely throw out the notion of a "monoLTR" where the girl doesn't have dozens of orbiters and won't gather more every year that she's on social media or in male spaces.

    That "monoLTR where the girl doesn't have a huge herd of orbiters" just doesn't exist anymore.

    …unless you go for the uggos. But even THEN. lol

  11. @YaReally I expressed my annoyance at the fact my plate was spending a little too much time with an acquaintance of mine.

    The response was typical: “well you don’t spend enough time with me…” sort of thing.

    I realized then and there that saying “Oh I see what you’re doing there….got it” was coming off as wayyyy too butt-hurt so I’ve been laying low and not contacting her until she reaches out.

    But orbiter management….yes it’s a situation. It used to be that a girl’s girl friends were the problem. No.

    I even call them “orbiters” to some of my past plates. They love that term. It amuses them but it also strikes a chord.

    In the current PUA climate….orbiter management means:

    1) having an abundance mentality
    2) being savvy to a girl’s “tricks”—the orbiter is meant to keep her amused and YOU in check
    3) avoid as much as possible any direct mention of the orbiter: I have a problem with this because orbiters tend to be lower value I have to bite my tongue saying “oh go hang with XXX then….” in that slightly sarcastic way which I have realized comes off as butt hurt
    4) banging her good doesn’t act as a buffer. I bang all my plates good. But the “orbiter” offers her that “ear”—listens to her all the time….hangs out with her, returns her funny texts while you’re the one sexting and escalating.

    Have I missed any?

  12. @walawala
    “The response was typical: “well you don’t spend enough time with me…” sort of thing.”

    That’s that “oh shit, this is a no-win situation” moment I was talking about. Like that’s when it hits that your only power to lay down rules is being able to walk away and that if you were legally tied to her or had kids with her, removing the ability to walk away, you would be in a fucking tough situation because if you don’t react then you don’t care about her enough, if you DO react then you’re controlling. No-win situation for the average guy who doesn’t understand Red Pill shit.

    “was coming off as wayyyy too butt-hurt”

    Yup. Which is the point of it. To see if you’re going to react to them or not and to see how much you need her. Most of the girls who have BFs that I’ve hooked up with, I didn’t have to even do anything special, the BF blows himself out by getting more reactive than me…and since she’s not MY GF, why WOULD I get reactive? But to the girl, the less reactive guy comes off as higher value ’cause he’s indicating the other guy isn’t competition in his mind (“hmm, he must know something I don’t then!”) whereas if he reacts then it’s (“hmm, if he reacted then this guy must be a threat for him!”).

    Ironically she’s trusting your judgement in both scenarios lol (because girls ping off their environment for how to feel and the strongest frame wins and what you feel she feels) Which is why it’s important to develop self-confidence that doesn’t rely on your looks/money/car/etc because she has easy access to orbiters with more of any combination of those categories than you possess and why I harp on the looks/money topic.

    “I even call them “orbiters” to some of my past plates. They love that term. It amuses them but it also strikes a chord.”

    ’cause they know exactly what the guys are for. And 99.999% of those guys ARE just entertainment and free favors and validation to the girls.

    But guys have to understand that that’s all a smokescreen to keep them from realizing that her Hypergamous hindbrain is looking for that 0.001% and every one of those chodes is another possible route to a legitimate high-value male (ie – chode knows a celeb on social media or pays for her ticket to her fav celeb’s show and she can meet him etc).

    It’s like airport security doing “random” searches of a big group of random people for show throwing up a smokescreen so no one realizes (or can accuse them if they do realize it) they’re just doing that to target the brown dudes lol

    “banging her good doesn’t act as a buffer. I bang all my plates good. But the “orbiter” offers her that “ear”—listens to her all the time….hangs out with her, returns her funny texts while you’re the one sexting and escalating.”

    Thing is she usually (not all girls, depends on how self-aware they are) doesn’t consciously KNOW she’s going to get bored by that guy that does all that gay comfort shit. That’s why they LSNFTE, ’cause they think they want that, then they get it and are bored out of their minds and come back.

    But on top of that, the guys are putting on their best show. They have pics of themselves going rock climbing and driving fancy cars and flexing their 6-packs etc trying to do everything they can to put up the illusion that they’re these high-value dudes, when really they’re fapping to porn and watching YouTube all day like anyone else 90% of the time.

    But all the girl SEES is the profile pics where the guy looks like a badass and she can just use her imagination to assume he’s off doing exciting things, while she’s sitting beside you on a boring Netflix night because you’re 3 years in and the NRE has worn off…next to THAT guy, any of those internet profiles that are “potentially higher-value males” seems like a lottery ticket worth discreetly scratching.

    In the past, you’d both be sitting on that couch together engaging eachother. Now she can flip open her phone and have access to a million other guys putting on the illusion that they’re doing things a million times more exciting than you are in that moment.

    These are a lot of dynamics that have escalated and warped/changed over the last 10 years and need to be understood and addressed for any kind of serious “how to realistically make a relationship work long-term for the sake of having kids etc” discussion to take place.

    “Have I missed any?”

    That’s most of it. The general frame is just full belief that you’re better than those guys (and the behaviors that come from that…would you really send a butthurt txt about the low-value guy she’s trying to make you jealous about if you weren’t a little ego-hurt that she’d even consider that guy competition with you, and where does that little ego-hurt stem from in your internal belief system about your value and her value etc), and keep yourself as the dangling string the cat keeps leaping for instead of the string laying on the ground that the cat gets bored by while her social media and hobby/work environment shows her a million other more exciting looking dangling strings.

    Most of that is hard to do once you’re tied to her via a legal contract like marriage or by having kids. So we have to figure out how to make a pLTR with no legal attachment work if we want guys to be able to have and raise kids with the maximum chance at their LTR lasting in this 2016+ era.

  13. @YaReally thanks for the pep talk.

    Ice been nursing a slightly bruised ego that my plate started chasing a friend of mine and I reacted les than optimally by flashing jealousy and a butt hurt frame.

    My recovery was solid though. I soft Nexted. Met up with one of the others and am pipelining a new one I number closed in the weekend.

    Funny…I get into a situation where I’m super confident and then lose my shit and it’s a set back.

    Your idea of soft nesting for a month until her bad behaviours can’t “get to me”. Is the answer. The first few days are always hardest.

    After a rejection the next few days are critical.

    I wanna send that killer text or let her have a piece of my mind. But for guys reading this…don’t lose your shit with girls who act badly or act out. Just do what I did. Leave the scene and disappear.

    They always come back. Then you can assess how you feel at that time to decide what if anything you say.

  14. YaReally explained what I was going to say. Women will still want to use commitment for serial monogamy.
    Not Born’s comment about commitment for a man means agreeing to forgoing pursuit of any other women for the benefit of the committed to made me think of all the women like the one who recently made the facebook post about turning her husband down.
    That commitment gets broken all the time.Although it’s not seen that way. What other kind of agreement where you agree to be exclusive with an action, but the other party then seeks to make the action non existent would be seen as a kept commitment?

  15. @Rollo:

    “Ironically, commitment only has value to a woman when it’s denied to her by a man who’s SMV outclasses her own.”

    If this is robust, it could be reversed to evaluate your own SMV, or at least what the current woman thinks about your SMV: is the woman you are with pushing for commitment?
    Then you’d think you can “do” better, but the better may not say “I do” after you “do” her.

    So situations where “the talk” gets pushed on a man is always or almost always an indicator the woman thinks the man has higher SMV (at least until that point, presumably if he fails that significant shit test it could go lower just from that)?

  16. The dangling carrot is effectively an illusion.

    It’s simply DHV. There is no carrot, really. Just DHV. Which triggers Hypergamy. Your status is elevated in the woman’s mind by your refusal to commit, and so she keeps chasing you.

    Cat String Theory in a nutshell. Dangle it and the cat will be excited and give chase until the cows come home. Drop it on the floor, and it loses all the interest it had in it.

    How can a man with RP awareness take a woman’s complaints about a “lack of communication” (centered around ‘defining the relationship’) or a “lack of commitment” seriously? It’s impossible. No matter how much she claims I’m ruining her life, or stressing her out, or making her life hell, ALL because our relationship is “undefined” and it’s “driving her insane”….I know what’s *really* going on.

    And what’s *really* going on? I’ll sum it up like this:

    Her last boyfriend committed to her, and did everything she’s been asking me to do: verbally declaring that he had no desire to sleep with other women, declaring his love for her and commitment to her, never looking at other women in public, telling her he’d never want any other woman but her, communicating that he wanted to be her partner and that he was devoted to her and would never want to be with any girl but her…..

    …and she fucked me and got involved with me before she completely broke things off with him.

    Granted, the guy had a LOT of other issues that completely disqualified him even as a Beta Bucks, but the point is that he gave her all the things she’s SAYING she needs from me, but clearly having those things was not enough for her in the past.

    And not only was it not enough: it didn’t mean shit. Just as this article points out in the last section. It’s valueless.

    This is why you never “show your hand” with women. Openly declaring commitment and going along with the “open communication” and “defining the relationship” thing is JUST like going to a poker tournament and waving your cards around every chance you get while shouting “HEY EVERYONE! LOOK WHAT I GOT!”

    ….and then thinking that somehow miraculously puts you at an ADVANTAGE to win the game in the end.

    “I just figured I wouldn’t be like all those OTHER poker players who have a poker face and keep their cards to themselves. I mean, that shit is so FAKE. I mean, EVERY poker player does that. If I’m SPECIAL, and just BE MYSELF and BE OPEN and HONEST…

    …well THEN I’ll be recognized as being special, and being so different and innovative will surely give me a unique advantage, which no one else has thought to do yet…..”

    Think of that analogy the next time you feel like “spilling the beans” to any woman. Picture yourself like you’re in a poker game and you’re about to show everyone your hand. And then ask yourself,

    “And…why is this a good idea again?”

    My first introduction to this lesson was LJBF. It took me near 20 times of it happening over years and years, and then finding TRM, before I learned my lesson. I had girls that were clearly into me, and I ruined it EVERY SINGLE TIME by professing my “love” for them and making a complete fucking chode out of myself.

    Long way from there to being actually involved with a girl, having her ask me “Do you love me?” and me just saying “No,” and then her putting her head against my chest and crying.

    I’ve had times I was very tempted to say “I love you,” or do sentimental things like write her a small note or something telling her how much I care about her, but I never have, not even once, and for the time being I’m making it a golden rule to never say it or do anything like that. She’s done that with me a lot more than a few times but I haven’t reciprocated once.

    I might be going overboard with that, but the pendulum tends to swing in the other direction for a while until it finally strikes a balance. I don’t see how to fit those things in at all without automatically branding yourself as a Beta.

    Although one time I did buy her something small that made me think of her as soon as I saw it. I didn’t write a note or anything with it. That’s one time in an entire year now, and all I said when I gave it to her was it made me think of her as soon as I saw it and I knew I had to get it for her. I think it was 5 bucks.

    She freaked out with elation when I gave it to her and said she never thought I’d ever get anything for her ever, and was beyond excited to have proof that I had thought of her at a time that I wasn’t with her.

    For a guy as wordy as myself, keeping my cards close to my chest can be very hard. And doing it has been a huge learning experience. This is coming from a guy who, in the past, would write extensive stalkerish love notes (including long original poems) to girls I’d never gone on a single date with but was ‘madly in love with.’ Cringe. I was probably one parallel universe away from shooting up my school.

    I still find it funny that I’ve written so much about the stress of this relationship on here, but her perception of me is that I’m really super into myself, don’t care about her that much, and would drop her in a second for another hotter girl, while she’s madly in love with me and cares about me and wants to be with me way more than the other way around.

    She’s pointed things out like that to me more than a few times, and it usually turns into her asking me,

    “Why are you smiling?”

    “Why are you laughing? What’s so funny?”

  17. I think there is quite a lot of projection in this equation too. Most men can vicariously look at the pre-wall, wall, early post-wall female’s situation with some clarity. They quickly determine how they (the man) would react to the situation if it were them. They would look at the diverging SMV arcs, fertility charts, earnings potential etc. and then (applying rationality) immediately determine that the 36 year old male professional holds the keys to commitment over the 29 year old wall-banger.

    But that’s the projection. That’s how we would react to the situation if we were female. That’s not what they (females) do. Most of them will emote and ‘no good men’ their way through it. Other options are:

    EPL
    wine
    prozac
    get knocked up by a chode
    just go fat and HFCS your way through life
    go cougar
    EP in your fifties (No ‘L’ by now)
    go new age

    But none of them will sit down and crunch the numbers, read the SMV data and come away going, “Well, I better realize he holds the cards now. The tables have turned. I had my run from 16-35, now it’s his turn. He holds the key!” That doesn’t happen.

  18. A couple of times in the essay Rollo alludes to female sexual primacy arising as a result of the sexual revolution. I think I know what he means but society has always given primacy to female well-being even if prior to the sexual revolution that did not include encouragement to sleep-around and to divorce. In a pre-abortion, pre-pill, industrial-revolution, pre-cosmetic-surgery world such behaviour would have been not only bad for society but also thus for the women so acting thereon. Men have always done their best to work out the best deal then historically possible for the female sex; men always came second.

    It is surely because most men needed to give earnest evidence of their likelihood to stick around to be given access on an exclusive basis to pussy that it made sense to describe men as gatekeepers of commitment. Whatever women may do I am going to suggest that that is still the case. Only a very small number of men are likely to have more sex by keeping their options open than by settling for just one woman. If you are that attractive, commitment to one woman together with pieces on the side is surely your best option. The PUA without an LTR may have more fun and certainly more variety but he will not have more or better sex.

  19. Commitment from an attractive woman in 2016! This post could not have been timed better I’m in Italy on holiday to see my son but he broke his foot so has not joined me.
    I’m currently spending time with a hot divorced Italian milf (ex fitness model ) and gym owner, but that’s not the point of this post.
    This morning I get a FB friend request from an ex gf (4 years ago) profile pic is wedding day, looks like a big expensive bash too!

    I accept and within 3 back and forths it turns to sexy flirting ( I started it) but boy did she join in with enthusiasm! I told her I was still a naughty boy and she should block me if she thought it was inappropriate as I have no intention of stopping flirting.
    Her response after I told her I was leaving conversation to take a shower before going to the beach?

    A nude photo request!!! This woman is a lot younger than me at 32 is still hot but she’s on her fucking honeymoon for fucks sake!

    Forgot to mention about 2 years ago when she was engaged she texted me asking if she could stay at my place as she was attending a course in my city! As I had moved after our split.

    Never get married! This chump has no idea what’s coming down the road.

  20. It’s just a matter of power balance really.

    A low-value man (beta, AFC, young) is willing to give away commitment, in hope to secure sex/love/companionship to a (perceived) higher-value female.

    Conversely, a low-value woman (ugly, post-wall, single mom) is willing to give away sex, in hope to secure sex/love/companionship to a (perceived) higher-value male.

    -> The higher-value person is the gatekeeper of everything.

  21. THE RULES OF SOCIETY

    Basically, I think, the farther you are from the rules of society — in your heart — the better able you are to deal with demands on yourself, whether it is commitment, loyalty to a boss, going along with “friends”, or whatever.

    In North America, currently, we almost all go to public schools, which is a breeding ground for vast conformity.

    The unspoken laws of this order become one’s internalized “rules.” After all, it’s hard to calculate separately what to do in every case when you’re socializing; a heuristic for doing a shortcut makes sense. It also traps you.

    It seems to me that the ultimate rewards for society are given to those who understand how the system works — but who stay aloof from most of the rules. When Warren Buffett invests in a company, he’s breaking the rules of economic “society” — because he goes in when others are afraid, and he runs away when others are greedy (his most famous aphorism). Ditto, when Trump the Republican candidate makes a “handicapped reporter’s face” and flaps his arms around, he’s really doing a brilliant thing, showing a disregard for the rules while he’s following the system-pattern of the nomination-political process.

    It is this ability to both understand society and disdain it that leads to the greatest results.

  22. Thanks for yet another behind-the-curtain reveal Rollo.

    You and your commenters (I’m looking at you this time YaReally) provide endless entertainment and valuable nuggets, even for a mid-lifer that’s not looking to play; but is taking advantage of free information to help keep his sons and their mates aware.

    i.e. so you say you’re friends then? Are you her friend or just one of her orbiters? Wha…? Followed by opportunity to explain further. Good stuff.

    Harry Belafonte understood all this quite well in his day:

    “Get An Ugly Girl To Marry You”

    http://www.metrolyrics.com/get-an-ugly-girl-to-marry-you-lyrics-harry-belafonte.html

  23. IMHO, the only time a man should commit to a woman is when he finds her to be suitable to reproduce with AND she fully submits to him. Her submission + his attraction + him wanting children = ideal situation to commit (exclusivity by whatever means).

  24. “Do not try and bend commitment. That is impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. That there is no commitment. Then you’ll see that it’s not commitment that bends, it is only yourself.

  25. Friday night I added a new chick to the plate rotation.

    As I drove home from her place , top down on the muscle car listing to Mark Morrison’s Return of the Mack at 4am in the moonlight I reflected on the fact five years ago that I damn near threw all of this away -without realizing it.

    Back then I was still in the military. I didn’t see it that way back then, but now I know that base was a bluepill betabux accessions camp in disguise.

    Five years ago I was stationed on a base with a seriously lopsided female-male ratio. As in 5 guys to one female of ANY age above 18. The practical options for sex were either underage girls , or used up post wall hags. The middle ground was a desert.

    In this AFC desert , I met and gamed a Dominican chick. In that place it was like banging a supermodel ; there were guys who’s gone entire enlistment periods without getting laid, and here I was tapping Latin pussy on a base where she was literally 50% of the fuckable Latin women around.

    When the shit tests mounted up, my so called peer group and family all said the same thing; wife her up and speak no more. Every authority from my male friends to the base chaplain to the freakin dude lighting my hookah coals every Friday said the same thing ; put a ring on it ASAP, because that’s what a “real man” does.

    Fortunately her BPD habits plus a pregnancy scare caused me to put the brakes on the whole mess,but in all likelihood id probably be pushing a cart in the Target baby aisle right now if she was just a little more “normal”.

    That’s the insidiousness of the system; you can’t guard what you don’t know has value. While I’m not in the military any more ,the mating dynamic from that base has seemingly followed me in civilian life.

    Now being a redpill man feels at times like being in the damn CIA. Can’t tell my family and friends what I do every weekend night, or the RMS ShameTanic will put to sea. Can’t tell my coworkers what I do every weekend, or I’ll get lynched by the married chumps and AFCs I work with. Why?

    Because the feminist system is designed to deny men the very knowledge that we even can say “No” to begin with.

    Freedom . For a concept that’s championed by society so much precious few men today have any of it .I almost became one of them out of sheer ignorance. You can’t say no Cupcakes goals if you don’t realize it’s an option.

    How many men toil overtime to pay for kids and a wife because they never were allowed to have a say? How many men are trapped into paying a tax to the state Child Support Collections Bureau because they never got an invitation to decide on their own future?

  26. “Dr. Martie Haselton”

    I just looked up this woman, a PHD teacher at UCLA. Her topics of interest cover all the manosphere topics, only in far more convoluted language.

    So many of these “scholars” at the college level.

  27. THIS.

    There is a huge difference between a woman spreading her legs for you and one who is willing to submit to your lead. This is the first true test to see whether she is worthy of being your wife.

  28. When I was growing up I didn’t have Internet. No SoSuave, no TRP, no TRM, but I did have Harry:

    Was treating girl independently
    You know that she was making, baby for me
    Baby was born, I go to see . . .

    Eye was blue, it was not by me.

    You meet a pretty girl at a dance
    You think that maybe you might stand a chance
    Take her home thinking she’s all alone
    Open the door . . .

    You find her husband home.

    Garden of Eden was very nice
    Adam never work in Paradise
    Eve meet snake . . .
    Paradise gone . . .

    She make Adam work from that day on.

    Not me, but the people they say
    The men are leading the women astry, but I say
    That the women of today
    Smarter than the man in every way.

  29. Enlightening article. Without belaboring the discussion with mathematics, I would argue that the urge of a female to secure a commitment from a male can be calculated in a manner very similar to put and call option.

    Avoiding going into details, an option is a security that gives you the right to sell (put option) or buy (call option) another security at a given date. The price of an option generally has multiple components that make up its price, for this purpose I will use two terms.

    Intrinsic value, which is the difference between the spot price (current market value of the underlying security) and the strike price (price at which the option can be exercised)

    Time Value: The amount the options trader is paying for the contract above its intrinsic value. The longer the contract the higher the time value.

    The younger a female is, the longer she has to find and secure the best possible SMV deal she is able to. The closer a female is to the wall, the shorter her time is to secure a male at optimum value.

    Therefore, the earlier a man wants her to commit the higher his SMV must be relative to hers. The later he wants her to commit the lower his SMV must be relative to hers.

    The female intuitively knows that pre-peak and a few years after, she is still in a strong negotiating position, whereas post-wall she is not. However, much of female narrative focus has been to create a delusion within her that her value is in fact greater the older she gets.

  30. @greginaurora I think this is especially true with regard to white men in the context of Western Civilization. Their creation has been turned against them by women. degenerates, and outsiders. There used to be a natural order within Western Civilization, and white men were rightly at the top of it. Now it’s a mish mash of Jews, self hating white men (cucks), women, non whites, homosexuals/trannies, and Muslims (all of which played no hand in the creation of Western Civilization) are at the forefront. Of course, beta white men are still behind the scenes making sure everything of importance keeps functioning. The only thing that’s not certain about Western Civilization is how long white men will allow the current state of affairs to continue.

  31. The dynamic is not very different with women who are older (say up to 50s range). These women have been in the workforce their entire lives, around high value men there and at the gym and elsewhere in their lives, and also now are on social media as well. They have orbiters, “office spouses”, personal trainers and so on. They did not grow up with social media, but many have taken to it with gusto — it makes sense given what it provides to them. It’s still all about optionality, which is something that women will naturally pursue due to hypergamy.

    It doesn’t end when they turn 30 or 35 folks. Sure does a 40 yo have less pull than a 22 yo? Of course she does. But if she has kept herself in shape and hasn’t let herself go, she pulls just fine — plenty of guys from 25-55 will still want to hit it, and with today’s emphasis on nutrition and fitness, increasing numbers of women in these age ranges are acting the same as they did when they were 30. Is it different men they are pulling? Sure, but they’re still pulling. And they know they can pull, of course. So it’s the same deal about options.

    As a guy you just need to focus on maxing yourself out, so you also have a great set of options at all times. Don’t be fooled by manosphere memes that women are finished at 30 or 35. Nope. Maybe that was the case in the 1970s and earlier, but not in 2016, not with how many are keeping in shape, using surgery and so on. They’re maintaining options for a long time, so your focus has to be on setting yourself up to be maxed out so that you also have great options, unlike most guys who are going to have mediocre options their whole lives compared to the women of their same age (the attractive ones, at least, which is who we’re discussing here anyway .. we’re not discussing the unattractive ones).

  32. @yareally

    “but he’ll instinctively know that him sitting on the couch watching Netflix while she sits beside him surfing Facebook and responding to guys on her Facebook wall, that something isn’t “right” with that agreement he’s entered. Because it’s lopsided in her favor.”

    Ouch, this is so true and so depressing

  33. @yareally

    “Most of that is hard to do once you’re tied to her via a legal contract like marriage or by having kids. So we have to figure out how to make a pLTR with no legal attachment work if we want guys to be able to have and raise kids with the maximum chance at their LTR lasting in this 2016+ era.”

    I think this might help with the application of dread but the ‘husband’ needs to do this early on and consistently. However, I don’t think this is practical or even possible because ‘modern’ girls will not enter into such an arrangement with so much dread going on. Usually there’s a lag between mLTR start of birth of the first (unless there’s an oops!) and in that lag time she’ll bale claiming the guy isn’t good hubby material because of the ongoing dread. And then there’s the on-going betaization process. In my opinion, it’s just not a solvable problem for ‘modern’ couples. Older-generation guys might be the last to be able to keep their women under control.

    The key, given my experience, is to get away from the child-desiring BP-Disney model – although I currently have 2, I can just imagine myself being just as happy now without them and spinning plates until I can’t get it up anymore. Maybe the model might be going to maintaining one or more ‘single’ mothers and hoping for the best. Maybe men just weren’t meant to be involved in child-rearing until that child was old enough to be a warrior. Maybe we’re all just fucked up and spinning down the toilet.

    “no legal attachment” – my jurisdiction has this for common-law arrangements. You can walk away anytime – there’s not cash&prizes, just child custody/support. But she won’t give a fuck because she’s got the social net now and there’s no longer a social stigma to being a single mother – it’s the norm.

  34. since we are explicating via music video… here is one for you, particularly you sooper young doods who don’t recall what the world was like in 1983…

    You will no doubt know the chorus… hailed as an “anthem of female solidarity”…

    The technology that unshackled hypergamy is not social media and instant communication, it was hormonal birth control and legalized abortion. And that cat got let out of the bag way back in 1920.

    as always AWALT. So when men lead, women follow… when men abdicate leadership, women run a muck.

    Harry sang about the Garden of Eden… Adam missed his “man up” moment and hid behind Eve.

    and old story… the same old story… over and over again.

  35. @newlyaloof

    “Do not try and bend commitment. That is impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth. That there is no commitment. Then you’ll see that it’s not commitment that bends, it is only yourself.”

    This is golden and a great twist on the original

  36. Rollo, do you have some idea about young women in new relationships and not having (much) initiative? What do you think is behind this psychologically?

    I’ve been dating one like this for a couple of months. Physically so to speak there isn’t any problem. But I find myself doing all the work in terms of coming up with things to do. And she always likes it, never complains. I just feel like some placeholder.

  37. A man will not consider his performance a burden unless it is required, like in the context of commitment. Performance as the result of personal passion is enjoyed by the man as personal fulfillment. When the performance is harnessed by another through “commitment” that passion is lost. Resentment replaces passion because at the fundamental level “commitment” is really nothing more than blackmail. It is litterally a form of theft. A wise woman can enjoy riding the wave of a man’s performance by not attempting to steal it.

  38. @Merciless Times:

    If you’re behind the wheel, shut up and drive. It’s the only seat in the car that isn’t a placeholder.

    “What do you think is behind this psychologically?”

    She wants to enjoy the ride. Give her a thrill and get the tail out.

  39. “We have to completely throw out the notion of a “monoLTR” where the girl doesn’t have dozens of orbiters and won’t gather more every year that she’s on social media or in male spaces.
    That “monoLTR where the girl doesn’t have a huge herd of orbiters” just doesn’t exist anymore.”

    @YaReally, @walawala

    Truth! Funny. There was an orbiter in MY HOUSE the other day. Yup, a mid-thirties married woman with kids… With orbiters… Yay me! Shes not even that hot. Like a 7 in her prime. She’s feminine though compared to most girls which must be the allure. Thankfully she asked me if it was alright first, but obviously my only answer can be “huh, what? Oh, uhh, yeah sure whatever. That’s fine”

    I’ve just let go of all that shit. I think you have to. If she’s going to fuck some guy she’s going to fuck him. Nothing to do really other than keep focused on yourself. 90% chance it’d only make her more appreciative of me. Still kind of a big risk, but like you said… It’s a no-win situation, the ONLY option is just to let it go and work on yourself. And obviously not get married if you aren’t already.

    —-

    Thanks for everyone helping me a few weeks ago and being patient and everything. I’m starting to get the whole identity thing with everyone’s help and just some time to process. Left a more detailed comment in the Cardinal Rule post.

  40. @mercilesstimes

    Welcome to the world of dating women. They all inherently need you to take the initiative. They crave entertainment and being suprized, you should be “dangerous” in a safe way. They love this because it makes them feel alive. This is how they are all wired regardless of whatever crap the media, your mother or “Whoopie Goldberg” tells you. If you fail to take the lead in this way and do so very regularly, she will find you boring. Consider the tendancy to defer to her in this context quite litterally a form of impotence.

  41. @YaReally For men who want to start a family and raise his ACTUAL biological children with their ACTUAL biological mother you’re right on point. I’ll add a few bits here…

    Obviously NEVER get legally married, but if one is looking for a woman to have children with, screen the fuck out of her until you get all the info you need while simultaneously establishing a rock solid frame to keep both her AND yourself in check for as long as possible. Finally AND ONLY when she has fully submitted to you should one pull the trigger on having children. Post children, continue to DHV and if she ever starts to think she has the upper hand because she birthed your children, subtly (or not so subtly) convey to her that $400/mo in child support (or leaving the country) is a better option than putting up with any of her bullshit.

    For men screening and establishing frame for the potential mother of their children I recommend that one constantly trashes single mothers and points out how they are the literal scum of the Earth and how their putrid spawn turn into sluts and criminals that no parent would be proud to call their own. All normal women care deeply about being perceived as good mothers (key word is PERCEIVED) if they have children. You need to let her know that there are ACTUAL STANDARDS if she wants the privilege of mothering your future heirs and heiresses.

  42. walawala
    August 21st, 2016 at 7:48 pm

    My #1 daughter has the equality disease bad. I’ve told her it won’t make her happy. #2 son (who knows game) has tried talking to her. She refuses to listen. It will not end well.

  43. YaReally
    August 21st, 2016 at 8:15 pm

    There are girls with oneitis. If you want a LTR get one who has oneitis for you. It makes things some easier. When she promises to run away with another guy tell her, “go ahead”. The oneitis girls bluff a lot.

  44. Rollo, i’m a 26 year old soldier in the British Army and the red pill was the hardest thing i ever had to mentally conqour in my life. Months later and well past the denial stage I can’t thank you enough. You have changed my life for the better more than anything has is recent years.

  45. Sounds horrible out in the world.

    Is it really as awful as these comments reflect???

    Awalt is real, but damn, is every female a lying, cheating, golddigging , mean and spiteful bitch? Is that rational and true?

    I get trying to gain perspective and understanding. That’s a good thing. But some of y’all really do need to more deeply grasp RP. It sounds more like guys just want some kind of magic to happen while they passively stand by and watch.

    That’s not good living. That’s not how one gets the most out of life.

    Women aren’t evil whore monsters. Women ping off of their environments.

    A man must always strive to improve and elevate. You are only as hapless and helpless as you resign yourself to be.

    Time is a motherfucker that waits for no one ever.

    All problems have answers and solutions. Complaining about what is has never resolved one issue.

    I said in response to NBTMs original comment that women aren’t gatekeepers of anything. All of the talk in that vein is in your head.

    Get out of your head’s negativity.

  46. “Is it really as awful as these comments reflect???”

    Yes.

    “Awalt is real, but damn, is every female a lying, cheating, golddigging , mean and spiteful bitch? Is that rational and true?”

    Yes.

    All snakes aren’t poisonous, but I’m not willing to let one bite me to find out.

  47. @Andy Having an orbiter in your house? Walk away.

    @M. Simon: The idea of “equality” is a fantasy for girls. It’s been discussed here at length and when I meet so-called “feminists” who talk about “Equality” I say ok…let’s start by you buying the first round of drinks.

    Then you can open doors for me…Fix my sink. That shuts it down quickly.

    But I’ve been thinking a lot about this topic since I posted. Orbiters-management is now a new concept.

    I haven’t handled orbiters well. I usually make snide remarks: “Meeting your orbiter?” “Ask your orbiter…”

    But that’s acting out and not particularly clever. I realized the girl I was banging was using the orbiter as the ONLY way she could get to me when the other tactics didn’t work.

    She responded to my orbiter comment by saying “You’re acting like a jealous bf which you have no intention to be…”

    Got me there… That’s the pivot point for me to get into her frame and start being more “equal”….ie…listening to her and being submissive to her demands.

    Funny thing…things work best when the girl knows her own mind but still wants to be with me. What we do is less important than just hanging out.

    The point of game is to get to a situation of abundance where there are enough girls in your life that you can be more choosy about which one you hang with in which particular mood you’re in.

    The other thing about “orbiters” is they’re the equivalent of female groupies for rock stars… They feel they gain status by their proximity to the female.

    They pose for photos with their idol….they go for lunches, they exchange funny texts….Then the girl bangs some guy like me….and then complains to the orbiter what a jerk I am. Orbiter tells her how terrible I am in the hopes of scoring points. Works a charm until they start realizing what they’re missing…and cycle repeats itself.

    That in a nutshell is game. Build up a rotation. Have the presence of mind not to over-react to feminine fits of anger and disrespect. Move on. It’s taken nearly 7 years for me to get to this point.

  48. +10 comment Wala…

    Orbiters only exist to the degree you allow them to. And they can serve a purpose, when she admits she would never do anything with them… Checkmate.

    Abundance mindset and DPA triad will always win out.

  49. @ lone planet

    You do know that

    1. You don’t have to let snakes bite you.

    2. You are able to learn to identify poisonous snakes.

  50. “1. You don’t have to let snakes bite you.”

    This is true, but then you’re probably not trying to fuck a snake.

    ” 2. You are able to learn to identify poisonous snakes.”

    Because they are kind enough to identify themselves by their clothing.

  51. @Sentient The key is to learn the difference between a bf and an “orbiter”.

    The second learning is to know that the old pua boyfriend destroyer strategies DONT work on orbiters.

    Telling her “He’s such a nice guy….” isn’t going to change things. She knows that.

    It’s a mindset change. I’m still wrapping my head around it.

  52. wala

    “The second learning is to know that the old pua boyfriend destroyer strategies DONT work on orbiters”

    Right because they are not sexual threats… so don’t acknowledge them as such.

    she isn’t.

    It’s a mindset change.

  53. Wala

    You are really close man to truly believing that YOU are the prize. It’s not your imagination, it’s not smoke and mirrors, it is not mere game but YOU, your real life self.

    supra game state in sight…

  54. KFG “Because they are kind enough to identify themselves by their clothing.”

    Red on yellow kill a fellow?

  55. @Sentient and a shout out to the newbies and intermediates.

    Thanks. It does take nerves of steel and ani net strength to calibrate your game.

    Over the past year I’ve dealt with crazy stalkers, false STD and pregnancy scares but also encountered truly sweet hot girls.

    The orbiter thing only recently hit me when I got the “you’re acting like a jealous bf” text which was revealing for how a girl thinks.

    She’s pissed so she acts out to see if I’ll chase.

    In the other cases girls reject me. I just got the ihab routine. I just replied ‘k’.

    I still have female friends I don’t bang. But they serve a purpose of having something to offer and are like my orbiters.

    The other learning as an orbiter strategy is to walk away. Your competition with orbiters is your absence. That is your differentiator. They’re always available. When they stop being available and start gaming her…she notices it and friends them.

    If you’re gaming her properly she’ll see your absence as confusing and it will spark an emotion usually confusion and hurt sometimes anger. Rarely is it self reflection.

    My soft nexts haven’t resulted in meaningful behavioural changes and I’ve usually had to break it off or they leave. Usually they come back after a longer period with some offer of friendship.

    Avoid being an orbiter. Understand the girl’s orbiter attraction and mindset. Understand your value. Disappear when the orbiter flaunting becomes too much. Yah you’ll look jealous. But in my experience an alpha with flashes of jealousy is much more effective than supplication. Can’t be needy jealousy. It has to be anger. In the right proportion. I think I did that in my latest case example. Now I’ve gone dark for the last few days and she hanging with the new guy out of a need for attention and Spite.

  56. @Sentient:

    Hey there mistah, see that sistah
    Don’t you let ‘er thrill ya
    Sticks and stones, will break yer bones
    But man ‘er looks could kill ya

  57. I knew before I took the red pill I would never marry again. Now I’m even more certain of it. Committing to one woman is not alpha. Marriage is the beta thing to do.

    Once you give up your freedom in that legally binding, feminine-dominant construct, you’ve forfeited the only power you really have – your ability to move on and have no obligation to a woman.

    Sure, you may start out as the alpha dawg, but over time marriage will drain your frame. Good luck maintaining your MPO. Gaming your wife will take more effort as the years pass. Unless you are that 0.5% of men who are born hardwired alpha, married man game is your fate. It’s better than blue pill AFC torture and possible suicide – but if you can live with a woman and even have kids without being married, then why get married?

    The day you give her your 100% commitment is the day her vagina starts drying up. Slowly at first, but only the most cognizant red pill men can hope to stay happy once her hindbrain recognizes thay she has you lock, stock and over a barrel.

    Just my two cents.

  58. Great original post and good follow ups by YaReally.

    I think Really’s comments about Orbiters should have everyone’s attention. It’s actually worse that what he pointed out. See, people are “thinking” by orbiters it is meant actual PEOPLE that she meets and knows in real life; friends, coworkers, etc. As Really points out, those days are mostly in past because these days her Orbiters are VIRTUAL ORBITERS … they are not people she actually knows, they are FB friends, Tinder swipes, or instagram or twitter associates and of course there are OKC, POF, Match, etc. We all know about online dating and how that game works … women, even fat, old post wall women get dozens, hundreds of emails practically every day.

    So, how it works is that IN HER MIND every one of these expressions of interest is POTENTIALLY a higher value male; a higher value male THAN YOU. Are they ? Of course not. But she doesn’t think like us, right. Not like a man “A bird in the had is better than two in the bush”, nope.

    So, you are in constant competition with a ghost. What I mean is that someone once gave me a warning about dating “Widows” who’s husband had died. The warning was “You can’t compete with a ghost” because many of these women warped their minds into some sort of “Hero Worship” of the dead hubby and when you date someone like like that, you are constantly being compared to a Ghost who is never wrong and who has never committed a sin in his life and since he’s dead, never will. So how do you compete with that ? Answer: you can’t. If you ever meet a Widow who worships her dead hubby … best advice … RUN !!!

    So YaReally raises a hugely important question: Orbiter Management: is it even possible ?

    Oh and as for the recommendations given for when a girl who shit tests you in a situation like this: the recommendation to CUT ALL CONTACT AND WALK … is spot on, however the follow up, that “she always comes back” … is not true. Many times they don’t (pride, she actually gets what she needs from an orbiter, later dumps that orbiter and so on, so on … CC). But if she does come back, here is how it really went down. After you cut contact, she sought out Orbiter #1 and found he was just another beta, then Orbiter #2 wasn’t available, Orbiter #3 strung her along for awhile and was just a beta anyway, Orbiter #4 was actually married, Orbiter #5 demanded she put out in the first date and wasn’t that hot, Orbiter #6 strung her along and then flaked. While waiting for #7 to get back to her, it was her horny time of the month, so she came back to you because you were the “sure thing”. This is the world of Real Orbiters, in the world of Virtual Orbiters … she swiped the right way on Tender and got fucked by 4 different guys in the last week but ended up feeling like a slut, then spent 3 full evenings going through all the msgs she got on OKC trying to her perfect guy and spent … LITERALLY hours (lol) sending, cutsy 3 word messages to guys only to get back 8 responses with pics. She met 3 of them, fucked one and he wanted to get together again (Beta alert !!!). She also spent hours and hours on FB flirting with guys but didn’t want to look like a slut and none of them actually propositioned her … SO FRUSTRATING !!! So rather than go thru all the msgs on Match or go thru her followers on Twitter or who was favoriting her on Instagram … it was her horny time of the month and you were a “sure thing”.

    NOW: ask yourself this, since she pulled this stunt once … It will ONLY be a matter of time till she does so again. Do you want her back ?

  59. @Mega Guy You raise an interesting point. If after ploughing through her list of orbiters she finally comes back to you…was it because of your alpha status and game or because…you’re the orbiter of last resort?

    This cuts at the core of the Red Pill. All sexual dynamics are mercenary. It’s all about what you can get and what’s good for you.

    Ridding yourself of the needy mindset is the first step towards unplugging. But the Red Pill isn’t a means to an end–I’m Red Pill so I can get a better relationship. Then I get that relationship and slip back into my supplicating beta ways.

    No.

    Back to orbiter management, I have broken up and lost my shit with past girls who find a “friend” or “He’s just a friend, we had dinner together”…

    I know the guy is sniffing around, she regards him as an orbiter that maybe she can convert.

    There is one orbiter/white knight who used to be a friend of mine until he asked me crazy ex gf for a birthday dinner 3 years back.

    When I asked her whether she told him about our involvement her reply was “He didn’t ask.” I could see where this was going. I was played after that. I went from being the alpha dominant jerk….to a needy guy—at least in my mind. I did act out on it but then cut contact eventually.

    Flaunting the “friend” in front of me worked in the past until I figured out what was really going on. Then it became laughable. Then I ignored. Then suddenly the orbiter disappeared.

    Here’s a strategy girls use to get you to be an orbiter. They give out their numbers. That’s why a number close isn’t necessarily the mark of pua. Converting that number into a bang is the trick.

    Some of the guys I know are gaming the same girls I am. But they end up going for dinners or movies or dancing—lots of time spent. But they admit that it never goes anywhere. By contrast I convert those numbers to bangs within 2 meet ups or I move on.

    You have to move quickly now when you get the number and convert it to a meet up and escalate from there. Endless texting=orbiter.

    Banging and lots of texting=she’s trying to convert you to exclusivity.

    Leaving you doesn’t necessarily mean you weren’t alpha enough. I’ve been dumped by girls who are angry I didn’t make them their girlfriend. But this strategy rarely works because once they’ve sabotaged the relationship it’s harder for me to take them seriously or trust them.

    Girls self-sabotage. Girls act incongruently. But when they do truly like you, they respond to sexualizing.

    Only one girl I know who is hot and there is some sexual tension with that I’m friends. I saw her once with another dude and after that I now use her as a pivot and DHV. So in this case we are each other’s orbiters. But I don’t spend inordinate amounts of time or answer her questions.

    Signs you’re an orbiter include questions about “What do you think of this new outfit?” “What can I do to improve my [insert activity/job title here]”

    If you haven’t banged them and they’re asking you these things=orbiter. Girls I’ve banged ask me this stuff—but it’s for validation.

    Also one warning. The crazy ex used to say things like “I need hugs”….I would reply with “Come over”.

    Nope…not THOSE kind of hugs. She would get really upset with me.

    Her moods shift from being frigid and angry to being overtly sexual. All Women Are Like That. That’s why I’ve stopped reacting to their cries for attention or minor crises that pop up. The waif-like cries for help are aimed at manipulating you into being their orbiter.

    “You don’t really care”…is a commonly heard accusation from a waif-like girl who’s always sick, in trouble, facing life issues.

  60. @Walawala

    A quote from Rollo in his essay Mrs. Hyde:

    “Women are keenly aware that men’s primary interest in them is fucking – everything else is ancillary to sex. The difficulty women encounter in perfecting a long-term sexual strategy is men’s singular primary strategy – the value a woman has beyond the sexual comes after she’s been sexual.”

    @Blaximus August 22nd, 2016 at 4:26 pm

    Right on point with men need to be anti-negative.

    I was reading Softek’s comments @ 12:52 am today and I was thinking, good job, Softek, you are executing soft dread well. Congratulations. That’s a positive thing.

    Keep that feeling and skill of soft dread in your toolbox for the next relationship (after you refuse to get her pregnant in your current relationship).

    And XD, August 22nd, 2016 at 7:29 am:

    Good job on Red Pill Awareness and Game. Congratulations, that is a positive thing. Put your oxygen mask on first and then hope to save the others from their fate.

  61. @forge @othergrain @culum @yareally @pua

    Got another DHV, lol, though made the biggest mistake of my life. Like still traumatized over it. Did my most solid worker pickup. Opened a girl walking away from me for the first time, and opened a girl in a four set.

    —————-

    So i dropped off a car at a mechanic. Asian 6 there. Didn’t open. Left, came back. Had to wait a bit longer on car. Eventually opened the asian. I think it was over the pokemon — my usual opener “You catching pokemon or swiping on tinder.”

    got into it. don’t remember much of this convo other than that the girl was very engaged and sexual pretty soon in. I do remember getting somehow on pokemon pick up and I was like

    “You should use that in a bar. Be like ‘this is gonna sound crazy, but there is a pikachu on your tits. Honest to god. So just a sec while I catch it.’ and then just grab her boobs lol.'”

    so I have added that bit to my pokemon opener

    uuuh. she had been there for hours. real estate agent (red flag one lol). uuuh, said she still did her work there remotely while she was waiting. asked her what she could do remotely. She said basically that customers complained over petty shit and she had to work on them

    “So you are like a diplomat rather than a real estate agent lol.”

    and she was like “yeah yeah, pretty much lol.”

    uhh I know I brought up if she ate bacon, to qualify. Like I interrupted her and said

    “hey, do you eat bacon?”

    “of course. I love bacon. that’s like my favorite thing. bacon and bourbon.”

    “okay. good. barbecue this one chick said she didn’t eat bacon and I just WALKED OFF.”

    got into how it was a religious issue and she was saying “well, I guess that makes sense then”

    and I said

    “NO. Doesn’t matter. If you don’t eat bacon you aren’t a human as far as I am concerned.”

    and a mechanic got into it

    “Wait. what. Who doesn’t eat bacon?” lol. he was also offended by someone not eating bacon. good man.

    should have worked on the mechanic a bit, then switched back to asian. better to jester potential obstacles asap before they see you as a threat, I think. make em your friend before they can become an enemy.

    somewhere in here she listed off things. like things she liked
    “bacon, alcohol, partying, . . .and sex of course lol”

    lots of emphasis on the sex bit lol

    I also know somewhere in here I also talked over her. she was talking a BUNCH. And I just kept slowly talking. she was jabbering, I was looking out the window, occasionally saying a few words loudly and deeply. like I was coming to some poignant revelation lol. just ignoring her. and gradually steering the convo. good good. just need to be able to speak more loudly. then I can do that in clubs and shit. just take over convos from frame and shit.

    dropped piercing girl DHV. she responded. did the “there is crazy crazy and fetish crazy.” bit. works. she started talking about these two comic book characters. one is predictably crazy, the other really crazy. “some crazy is okay, but you don’t want to wake up with your dick cut off”

    went on comics, teased her for liking them.

    “Yeah yeah, that’s like my secret lol. don’t tell anyone!” she says

    chatted about comics.

    somehow got on olympics. she didnt watch them. got plastered. drank a buunch. spent like 200 dollars or some shit. Was like whhhat? she said she bought a bunch for other people. they were really friendly. and I was like “was that before or after you were drunk lol” and she said before. she said they were trying to get her to go home with them but she didn’t want to and she felt bad so bought them drinks lol. she said she was about to eat the bartender alive and had to make herself leave later that night.

    more stuff, don’t remember, but all was very sexual. good vibe to work to getting with a chick. . .but this girl obviously had issues lol. she did roll over close to me shortly after we started talking . . . but I feel like this girls hands out iois easy . . .but still . . .not to just everyone, so i feel like I had a decent value with her.

    main thing from this is just to remember how this convo went, and try to lead other girls to it. where we are just casually chatting about sexual stuff like its no big deal

    big issue was as she left. mechanics were like “I know you are goin to feel real bad about this, but we are done with your car now after 4 hours.”

    “Oh, I liked talking with you guys.” and then somehow got to “Nah it was okay. only issue is I can’t look up porn here. You prevented me from masturbating to anal cum queens 27.”

    lol. like no joke

    however. I feel like she was mostly getting attention here. It was to like 3 dudes. she was also showing off tatoos.

    anyway, chick started off okay — and just went full bore lol. like she actually said “yeah, I have problems.” but she went waaaayyyy pornographic sexual. first time seeing this in person with a chick. good reference.

    she also mentioned about another dude there and how she laughed at him because he couldn’t get laid. Like, that’s not exactly what she said. She said something about they talked about how he couldn’t get laid. but like, the subcomunication was that she was making fun of him.

    that said, I feel like I could have worked this girl more. can’t put my finger on it. but it just seemed like more boredom and basking in attention with the mechanics, and for me it was the same but I was sliding more towards being sexworthy with her. she talked with the mechanics as a group. but me individually.

    when I told my boss about this chick later, she was like “she must be DYING for attention” lol. but then, that’s what a girl is saying lol. but I still got the sense she was mainly doing all this for the validation.

    anyway as asian girl walked out the door, she stopped, turned to me, and said I should give piercing girl a chance. like 10 sec convo here.

    held back on this girl cuz like, there were mechanics around the whole time and felt awkward. but this is the kind of girl to go all out on. like dropping the sex book dhv lol. like i could open on this chick with that. got some slight attraction, but need to ramp it up. this is like a hardcore party chick. so at bar/club, ramp up the sexual talk/isolate/bang. but I think I can pick out this kinda chick easier now and calibrate to her accordingly.

    but note all my dhvs worked just as well on her. consistently works on all girls, so these are solid dhvs.

    didn’t feel too bad . . . cuz like.. . i’m pretty sleeping with this chick is how you get the zombie plague lol.

    good reference for going too far. like with the girl who opened me with “your hair is SMASHING.”. she overgamed *ME*. thats how it feels to open awkwardly for a girl, so its good to understand that perspective from a girl. and this asian girl was like this . . . it was just TOO MUCH for the venue. the early stuff was alright, but it just got excessive towards the end. like me and a mechanic caught each other’s eyes and were like “wtf?”

    shouldn’t judge her too hard. I know she’s going to end up fucked at 30 and all. but I think I am being a bit too maddonna/whore here. yeah, she def has issues lol. but I can still work around that. like, every girl would act like that if she ended up alone with brad pit or whatever.

    but, MY BIGGEST MISTAKE

    TRAUMATIC. Will never forgive myself for this.

    I should have gotten her number anyway just for the free booze! lol she bought all that shit for those guys lol.

    as I was driving away I was like “FUCK ME! should have gotten free booze. fuckfuckfuck.”

    so mad lol

    but . . . new dhv lol.

    piercing –> stalker –> asian –> sex book

    each gradually gets more sexual. first two are all that’s needed, but I can ramp things up with the last two, or shift them over to comfort/isolated girls to sexualize.

    works though. told my boss, she got super into it. said met sluttiest asian girl I had seen. but in what she talked about, not so much dress.”

    “oooh saying sexy stuff. what did she say?” in a tone of “oooh SCANDALOUS!”

    customer came later, did great with innuendo. just light. I tried to get her to get some adventurous items, but she went with the most boring one. teased her. she said something about how she was doing all this without her husband knowing.

    “What? So here you are going behind your husband’s back and you get . . . the most BORING option. You gotta be more ADVENTUROUS.”

    but said it a bit more sexual. ehh, I phrased it a bit different, like she was cheating lol. but don’t remember exactly what i said. but it was good since it was suggestive but still fit the nonsexual items lol.

    worked lol.

    she talked a lot about drinking too

    lol. i feel like this is an ioi. when girls just go on about getting plastered? mmm. I dunno. maybe its just that they feel you are more sexworthy? its like something they won’t bring up with just anyone. like it doesn’t mean she necessarily is very attracted to you, but she sees you as someone she can bring up this shit with.

    anyway, THIS chick liked me, but she was older lol. not good. not good at all.

    also mentioned asian girl to another customer, was a regular. funny, boss REALLY wanted me to tell him. lol he got into it too, thought it was funny. just a cool general story.

    great dhv, but need lots of polish for chicks. point of it is to get sexual WITHOUT the focus being on my target. sex in general, not sex with chick. and then be VERY sure to emphasis I *LIKE* girls who are open with their sexuality. like they should be free to express themselves. but like, there is a time and place for everything, lol, and you CAN get carried away. so also show I have expectations for how girls behave and I won’t tolerate girls just going batshit crazy.

    LOTS of stuff to work with here, but I will have to do a good job of polishing it up.

    mall. went in store. asked black girl for hats. she showed me. other people came in. she told them about a sale.

    “What? why didn’t you tell me about the sale? Its because I am white, right? Racist”

    and we had a little bit here of just teasing. I don’t remember the words, just a good vibe. “nooo I just forgot” “no you racyst girl, you RAYCIST” “okay, I should have told you about the sale, I just forgot.” ‘yeah NOW you tell me, since I called you out on your racism. Racist.”

    usual piercing girl — stalker chick. asked if she had stalker. yes. she has one here at this job. “you ever think of leaving the store because of him?” yes actually, he’s really creepy. so then asked her why she kept working there then. shes going to school for graphic design.

    lol was a nice lead into qualification with creepy dude.

    typical qualification “eeww your like a hippie.” and then let her win me over.

    said we should get coffee. she can buy my drink. she says no, she’s broke. I tell her to just get creepy guy to give her money so she can buy my drink. still no. I say we can each buy our own. she says yeah, I buy you your drink, you buy me mine. I say okay … but has to be same price. I tell her she can’t like buy 100 dollars of shit.

    did good here — handed her my phone

    “how do I type in number lol?”

    my phone is old as shit lol. I just tell her its a caveman phone and show her how. she types it in

    and RIGHT as she finishes boss calls her over. lol. perfect timing. tell her I wil text her in a bit as I walk off.

    texted her when I got the chance

    “This is hank from earlier. your boss sounded mad. did i get you fired lol?”

    which, lol, I have about done to other girls before. when she responds, joke about that, then tell her that I am out of town for a few days, but I will text her to meet up when I get back.

    white girl at sunglass store, same place as blakc 7 from few weeks ago. run my usual. oh wait, opened on her stickers she had. or did she mention them first? whatever, she offered me one. I was like, do they even have anything on them lol? she said no lol. don’t remember convo, but it was a good start, just like with the black girl being racist. fun noncustomer vibe

    main thing, words don’t matter. its the vibe you open on.

    piercing girl –> stalker. she’s VERY invested in figuring this stuff out. comes out from behind the counter (this is the same place as the black girl, but note that she never came out from behind counter — and this chick did like 30sec to 1min in) and stands a few feet from me.

    did good on teasing her later. she was talking about stalkers. how she gets rid of them. and I did my thing like with asian where I just talk over her. pickout things to comment on and ruin her train of convo. so like she said she told guys who stalked her she was a lesbian to try and get them to go away.

    “oh, wait up. You are a lesbian?”

    “no no, I just say that.”

    “ahh, so you are bi. okay, I get it.”

    “wait, no, what?”

    said something like that. just intentionally misinterpreting it into more sexual area. felt like that was just enough — do some brief sexual misunderstanding to take convo from her and drop sexual stuff, then lead the convo off in another direction.

    I know she walked away a bit here. like a few feet away — kind of like that blakc girl after I said “I just feel like a sex object sometimes.” and she says “we’re all sex objects” and walks a few feet away to chat with a customer (forge remarked on this, that that was an ioi). same deal here. white girl walks off. there is a guy hovering outside, maybe coming in. she welcomes him, eventually he comes in with his family, and white girl comes back to where she was next to me.

    ejected here. I remember i was SOOO BORED. lol, i don’t usually like white chicks.

    black girl walking towards me. open on piercing girl. like “uuuh okay” at first then smiling at end. good flip. not pretty, so let it drop. need better girls lol. but opened her and got her to stop and chat with me. easily could have pressed forward. . .but. . .bored lol.

    but here’s the deal

    just like when I get a positive response from a chick, I can sit next to her. its the same deal for a walking chick. once you get a positive response, you can lead her

    so in this example, I could have lead to her to the nearby seats. if no, then walk along with her. just a

    “hey, lets go sit over here. were kind of blocking people here lol.”

    get response, then jump right into next dhv.

    4 set, blakc girls. hmm. had to walk around to get confidence to open.

    opened on girl on edge on pokemon. did my tit grab bit (talking about using pokemon go as a pickup line to grab a girls tit, but I didn’t actually grab her tit lol). okay, works, but its like my stalker/piercing girls dhvs. gotta do it more. wan’t as into it as I am with the dhvs. but still solid. asked her about pickup lines, what was the most awkward one she’d heard. none she says. not playing along now

    so just jumped into piercing girl. nice here. just push until you aren’t making progress, then switch up to something else. remember wanting to do that — just riff on what is in the environment for as long as I can, then jump into my dhvs. and I’ve def been doing that consistently now.

    got thru stalker girl before she was response. lol, like I could see on her face she was realizing “wait a tic. all these girls are after this dude. huh, he must be a desirable guy.” l could see her process that on her face. lol, was funny to see.

    around here another girl in the 4 set asked for my targets phone. at first thought this was kind of her trying to get me to leave . . . but I actually wonder if she was trying to get us to hook up lol. like removing distractions. whatever.

    sitting next to my target was really awkward, so ejected here. would have to squeeze past several people lol.

    but HERE is where I should have dropped asian dhv

    “but oh man, you won’t even believe this other girl. she makes the piercing girl and stalker girl look completely normal.”

    and just build up the anticipation to cover my move to sit next to her.

    but never done that dhv on random girl, and this was also my first working a 4 set so didn’t. unusual in that other girls didn’t care, but great for first time. next times will get fucked with, so next time need to open the WHOLE SET, rather than one chick. or at least open one chick, then pivot on her into whole set.

    @othergrain @forge

    yeah what you wrote on other post is what I was trying to tell to forge. that was a solid breakdown. talking about how I was overgaming and noting the girls 10pm text was what a booty call text looks like, and noting all the places the girl was playing along even though I was running bad game lol. So that way I see where I was doing wrong, but also where I was doing right.

  62. @walawala
    “The second learning is to know that the old pua boyfriend destroyer strategies DONT work on orbiters.”
    “Right because they are not sexual threats… so don’t acknowledge them as such.”

    This. BFDs are named what they’re named for a reason…they’re for destroying actual competition (99.9999% of orbiters aren’t competition, but every 0.00001% or so is a guy you should legitimately destroy, but they’re so rare, and usually they’re the guy that isn’t actually orbiting her, she’s orbiting him, and complaining that like oh this guy at work is such a jerk and pisses her off etc, THAT’S the guy you wanna reframe shit into him being a chode lol and even THEN how you react to her mentioning him is going to help her figure out what his exact value is (see my post about the Good Will Hunting scene where the girls are watching how the guys react to eachother))

    Don’t elevate the value of that 99.99999% her orbiters by treating them AS actual competition and cause her to take a second glance at them because she’s pinging off you and clearly you know something about them that she doesn’t know and her hamster starts looking for value in them that she didn’t see before when you were unreactive to them.

    “My soft nexts haven’t resulted in meaningful behavioural changes and I’ve usually had to break it off or they leave.”

    Usually (and I’m not picking on you ’cause you’ve gotten much better at this compared to back when you were falling for the rolodex shit, this is just an overall instructional thing for everyone on Soft Nexts) this is the result of either:

    1) not executing a Soft Next IMMEDIATELY…most guys will receive shitty behavior from a girl, then try their OWN “I got this bro” instinctive method to turn it around (which doesn’t work), or get into a fight or get reactive about it or let it go for a day or two or try some OTHER tactic to turn things around that just lowers their value, and THEN decide “ok none of this is working, NOW I’ll try a Soft Next”, which is inherently not understanding how to execute a Soft Next (aka re-read Blackdragon’s How To Soft Next guide and pay closer attention to the exact execution method). The Soft Next happens as soon as the bad behavior happens, not days later when she’s flaking or won’t return your txts (“oh NOW I’ll Soft Next her” lol no SHE Soft Next’ed YOU)

    2) not executing a Soft Next from a place of high-value to the girl…which relates to point 1, where the guy lowers his value by responding (and failing) with OTHER methods and THEN tries to Soft Next, but it can also be a situation where the guy just doesn’t have as much value to the girl as he thought he did which was a miscalibration on his part…exactly the same as doing a backturn or disqualifier on a girl who isn’t in A2 yet, she doesn’t CARE if you walk away or disqualify her, she isn’t attracted enough. So if you’re trying a Soft Next when she’s already executing bad behavior because she doesn’t view you as high-value/respect you/want/desire you, then she doesn’t CARE that you Soft Next her

    3) breaking the Soft Next because you’re in scarcity and caved and “just send ONE little reply when I was drunk and lonely” No, fucker, you just fucked up the Soft Next and now you’re starting over and extending the length of it at BEST, losing the girl at worst. Check my archives for walawala’s journey through the rolodex fails with his crazy ex who kept suckering him into reacting and having to start over.

    4) her not understanding WHY she’s being Soft Nexted. Again see Blackdragon’s guide…she has to understand that the Soft Next is a direct result of her shitty actions and not just you being moody a few days later. That’s why you do it right away, so that she sees a direct cause/effect of her actions and your Soft Nexting her. You can also do shit like “you know, that thing you did at the party, that was a big turnoff, I dunno I just thought you were different from other girls…” and then Soft Next (this is one of the ways to recover if you fucked up and didn’t Soft Next immediately so that you wouldn’t have to explain your actions and the dynamics to her which makes it feel less organic/natural and more like a technique if you fuck up your wording/calibration on explaining…ie – don’t walk the tightrope if you don’t have to). She can’t change behavior she doesn’t know is crossing your boundaries just like a dog doesn’t know why you’re hitting it with a newspaper if you wait till the next morning after it poops on the couch to come out of nowhere and smack it, it just thinks you’re a crazy/abusive owner and will continue to poop on the couch while you continue to get frustrated that it isn’t “learning”.

    No idea which if any of those apply to your situation, but re-think the flow of what happened in each of your Soft Nexts and whether one or more of these 4 fuckups applied to it to cause the result you’re getting, and be aware of this stuff in the future.

    “The orbiter thing only recently hit me when I got the “you’re acting like a jealous bf” text which was revealing for how a girl thinks.”

    The “which you have no intention to be” thing is the important part. That’s her passive-aggressively telling you she wants you to be her boyfriend. Girls do this shit all the time…”well we better not do that, or else people might think we’re a COUPLE which you don’t want to be” lol

    @mega_guy
    “It’s actually worse that what he pointed out. See, people are “thinking” by orbiters it is meant actual PEOPLE that she meets and knows in real life; friends, coworkers, etc. As Really points out, those days are mostly in past because these days her Orbiters are VIRTUAL ORBITERS … they are not people she actually knows, they are FB friends, Tinder swipes, or instagram or twitter associates and of course there are OKC, POF, Match, etc. We all know about online dating and how that game works … women, even fat, old post wall women get dozens, hundreds of emails practically every day.”

    This. And the rest of your post is a must-read follow-up to my post.

    “every one of these expressions of interest is POTENTIALLY a higher value male”

    Right. They AREN’T higher-value, but she doesn’t KNOW that until she TESTS them, because they’re putting on their best front to ACT like a higher-value male. They put up photos of them on a yatch and in a nice suit and at the gym and the write their best profile to sound adventurous and cool, and really he’s a chode, but her hindbrain thinks “…but what if it IS real…” because it WANTS it to be real, so you aren’t even competing with the guy, you’re competing with his presentation of his best possible image and, until she interacts with him and SEES that he’s not hanggliding and shit every day, 99% of the time he’s just a generic chode, her hindbrain HAS to keep that potential chance on its radar because it’s hardwired to trade up if she CAN find better.

    “So, you are in constant competition with a ghost.”

    This. If her husband was alive she might see his flaws in time, but because he’s not there, she can imagine that he’s perfect. Same with the virtual orbiters…until they actually interact with them and SEE their flaws, she can fill in the blanks in the way she WANTS to fill them in.

    The exact same dynamic happens when guys date/marry my alpha widows…I’m just some random bum, if some girl I banged a few times and had a little New Relationship Energy-stage summer romance adventure with tries seeing some other guy, that guy will almost inevitably end up being more boring to her in time than I’ll be. Because she’s seeing him all the time and taking away all the mystery of his lifestyle and seeing all his flaws etc. Whereas she’ll always remember me as all those high notes, and she won’t see that I’m just as boring as that guy day to day…she’ll just ASSUME that I’m being as awesome as I was with her, with other girls, 24/7. So I won’t become less attractive to her, but her guy will…that’s why the LSNFTEs come back like 99% of the time.

    So it’s the same thing with the orbiters. You might be exciting, but in a relationship, especially a legally-bound 40 year marriage, you’re going to have downtime and off-times and times where you lose your mojo, times where you’re stressed, you’re going to lose your looks (which will affect your confidence if you’ve based your confidence ON your externals), maybe take some financial hits in life, have drama in your social/work circles, you’ll have weak moments like family members dying and illnesses hitting you, etc etc While she’s watching you go through all that, the CEO guy from work that flirts with her is putting up another pic of him travelling to Europe and trying fancy wines and messaging her about how he wishes he could find a wife as amazing as her that he could treat way better than you treat her, you and your abusive dread-game ways…meanwhile that guy is doing the same shit as you day to day, but her hindbrain doesn’t fill that in because it WANTS him to be a badass alpha she can switch to to optimize her biological goals.

    “So YaReally raises a hugely important question: Orbiter Management: is it even possible ?”

    This is why I bring it up. DisgruntledEarthling brings up a good point that it might NOT be solvable…like, at the same time we’re applying Dread, that Dread is being villified from EVERY OTHER SOURCE OF INFLUENCE in her life lol Like, girls may be quicker to LSNFTE now because they have so many options easily available. She can post about it on the /relationships/ forum on reddit anonymously and get 500 cat ladies telling her “break it off omg he’s abusive get out of there you can do so much better girlfriend!!” VS pre-tech where she’d have the input of a handful of social circle girlfriends who also had limited options available compared to the social media era and may tell her to focus on learning to please him to get him to commit VS just bailing the second she’s unhaaaaaappy.

    “Many times they don’t (pride, she actually gets what she needs from an orbiter, later dumps that orbiter and so on, so on … CC).”

    Ya this is getting more common. In the past she’d LSNFTE and try a few guys, see the selection was shit, and come back tail between her legs. But now she can go on 50 Tinder dates in a month with 50 different doctors lawyers 6-pack guys etc that are ALL a potential winning lottery ticket to her hindbrain.

    It’s important for the guy in that scenario to understand that she’s often not even leaving you for another GUY, she’s choosing the POTENTIAL LOTTERY TICKET over YOU. So if/when she DOES come back, you should be treating her as the lowest rung on your fuckbuddy ladder, she doesn’t get to be your first mate again…she chose NOTHING over you lol

    And the guy has to understand that she’s not coming back out of a DESIRE for him. She’s coming back because she COULDN’T FIND BETTER. Like, that’s an insult lol She’s going “oh well I might as well SETTLE for you because I THOUGHT I could do better but it turns out I was retarded, I GUESS I’ll settle for you NOW” She’s indicating to you that if you DO commit to her, she’s going to probably bail on you if she finds better options, she’s not even TRYING to hide the fact that you didn’t have enough value to her to keep her from chasing that lottery ticket, so what makes you think you’re going to not only raise your value to her so you get DESIRE sex through your committed LTR from then on but that you aren’t going to lose your value again as she gathers more and more virtual orbiters.

    So if you take her back, she doesn’t get to come back and the relationship is back on like before. She has to earn that spot in your life back, if she even CAN after such a big diss. Girls are mindblown by this, they usually expect to be able to resume as if nothing happened. (this is for the LTR guys, as a fuckbuddy guy I don’t care why she comes back, I’m not planning to settle with her lol)

    “NOW: ask yourself this, since she pulled this stunt once … It will ONLY be a matter of time till she does so again. Do you want her back ?”

    This. Like Patrice O’Neal says “she can go fuck some other guy if she wants, I don’t care, but right now she’s the Queen, she has the keys to my apartment…if she fucks some other guy then she gets demoted back to “ho status” with the other hos, and she don’t want that.”

    @walawala
    “Here’s a strategy girls use to get you to be an orbiter. They give out their numbers. That’s why a number close isn’t necessarily the mark of pua. Converting that number into a bang is the trick.”

    I’m pretty much done with numbers personally. I’ll take one if I have no choice, but I’ll time bridge like crazy and try to build enough attraction that SHE number closes me, but even THEN I hate it and push for the meet ASAP and it’s an uphill battle because just being in her phone means banging me isn’t as urgent as it would have been if I had just avoided the number close so that she’d have to come home with me that night and fuck her.

    “Signs you’re an orbiter include questions about “What do you think of this new outfit?” “What can I do to improve my [insert activity/job title here]””

    Ya, I had a regular FB recently start sending me just stupid pics of her day that she Snapchats to other guys. Like some food she was eating or a funny thing she saw. I just ignore that shit. The more mindless go-nowhere friendy texting you do, the more you put yourself in the orbiter frame. But I respond to sexual stuff she text and all my texts are laced with innuendo and pushing toward a meet-up or getting naked pics out of her etc So even after you’ve banged them they’ll still TRY to see if you’ll fall into an orbiter frame, it’s just their natural testing of your frame. She’s even commented that she knows I won’t respond to that stuff lol

  63. @ Rollo – great post. You keep churning out gold, brother!

    @Blaximus, @ Rollo, @ anyone who cares,

    I’m still actively attempting and achieving with some success to work through the whole “women are evil” cynicism and bitterness (I know YaReally will say that the fastest way to work through it is to go out and get positive reference experiences – message received, YaReally!). A lot of great posts by commenters here as usual (a lot of really smart dudes on this forum). What I continue to do is try to remind myself that from an evolutionary hindbrain perspective, women HAD to evolve this way. Her hindbrain dictates the need for superior “alpha” genetic material from men that were programmed themselves to plant their seed in as many women as possible. Her hindbrain also dictates the need to secure resources and provisioning from a beta that she could cuckhold and manipulate out of the harsh necessity of a harsh reality. In modern times men and women still have these “drives” but the difference is that the burden of acceptance and understanding falls on the men and not on women since women are programmed by nature to refuse any accountability for their dual sexual strategy (or anything else for that matter – lol). Their solipsism simply does not afford them the ability to introspect and therefore accept accountability for their actions and choices. It’s just the way it is. Bemoaning female nature gets you nowhere at a certain point in one’s RP progress.

    Why not just be upfront and honest right from the beginning? This allows you to establish frame from the very beginning by explaining to women that you as a man understand that your programming dictates the need to be non-exclusive and sleep with multiple women and that her nature dictates the need to constantly be on the hunt for a higher value man. So why pretend? Why not encourage her instead to get with every “50 Shades of Gray” that comes along and that it is okay for her to do so (she’s going to anyway). Let her know that you will never judge HER for ANYTHING even though her actions might be judged (you can leave that part out, Softek). Let her know that she can always look you up at some later point if things don’t work out with her manicorn. Keep it positive and supportive while not being needy, judgmental, hurt or possessive. Remind her that you have lots of other women that you are currently banging and that it is totally OKAY for her to pursue her own sexual strategy as we are all adults. Tell her you don’t “own her”. Tell her that you love her as AS YOU LOVE ALL OF YOUR WOMEN. Tell her you think all women are beautiful special snowflake butterflies and that you would never want to put any woman in a “golden cage” – WOMEN LOVE THAT SHIT! Be sincere and honest about that in a positive and supportive non-judgmental manner.

    Remind her of the parameters of your relationship and that you are her LOVER and not her PROVIDER and that you will not allow yourself to be pigeon holed into THAT box. If you find yourself out and about and (“going dutch”) with her then encourage her to get with this guy or that guy and to talk and flirt with them whenever and wherever (and make sure you do the same when she does!). If an apex beta tries to AMOG you when you’re with her then turn the tables and play matchmaker (I would imagine this would totally frustrate and confuse her hamster and would throw the assailant off balance). I know I’ve said absolutely nothing new here, but these are my thoughts lately as I continue to try to work through shit and to get to a better place mentally regarding the opposite sex. Don’t be a dick. If it’s time to next her then do it SOFTLY, if possible. Don’t be jealous or needy. Be supportive and give her small occasional doses of “I dig you babe, you’re awesome” but also be indifferent, accepting, open minded and understanding. It would seem to me that this would be a better way of dealing with these matters in today’s environment. Many of you might have some problems with some of what I’ve said but I think it’s a start, at least for me. You don’t play the game but you are still in the game, which is at least better than going MGTOW and being cynical and bitter. Just some of my thoughts as I try to integrate things for myself.

    This may be the best way to keep her “under your thumb” If not, then at least you won’t be under hers.

  64. “Why not just be upfront and honest right from the beginning? This allows you to establish frame from the very beginning by explaining to women that you as a man understand that your programming dictates the need to be non-exclusive and sleep with multiple women and that her nature dictates the need to constantly be on the hunt for a higher value man.”

    “Their solipsism simply does not afford them the ability to introspect and therefore accept accountability for their actions and choices.”

    You answered your own question before you asked it.

    Why not just keep your rational mouth shut, Just Get It and just DO it?

  65. First of all, everything YaReally wrote +1 (Thanks to YaR for keeping it under 1k words).

    This…

    “No man “committing” to a girl raised in 2016 culture is in a monogamous LTR. He’s in a one-sided pLTR (Primary LTR, a primary partner with multiple orbiters/side-poon)
    but in the GIRL’S favor (aka she keeps her options available while he restricts his own).”

    And this…

    “Because the old system is DEAD. MonoLTRs don’t exist anymore. I can’t re-state that enough.”

    And this…

    “In 2016 a girl with social media or work/hobbies full of men, is ONLY offering you a pLTR in her favor, she’s not offering you a monoLTR. She may be sexually faithful to you for a while, but her Hypergamy is always pinging for better and social media and feminist culture has given her ALL THE TOOLS AND AVENUES SHE COULD EVER WANT to help her ping wider, farther, faster, more discreetly, and for astronomically better than some housewife in <1950”

    And if your 2016 girl is extremely hot (or exudes massive sexuality) and enjoys male attention (due to LSE or otherwise), like my most recent LTR GF, the pain ramification found in the aftermath of “committing” to her monogamously is increased exponentially.

    My ex had probably at least 100 IRL orbiters (and not from online sources). The seminary priest willing to kick in a fucking stained glass window to fuck her; the 74-year-old old school alpha who knew just what to say to a hot blonde with big tits; the 25 year-old good-looking smirking skateboarding barista who read The Game and saw her as an age-approaching MILF and knew EXACTLY what to say (she told me); the car of black dudes slowing down and howling at her swinging bubble ass on her walk to see me; the scores of miserable-yet-wealthy married middle aged fucks willing to torch their families to stick their dicks in her curvy double-jointed body…

    All of them. I SAW YOU, you fucks. And go ahead and multiply that by 20 for the times when I was not around to witness.

    “The old game is dead,” as YaReally said (yes, a poet am I). Pile on her Facebook pings atop of what I have described above and I never had a sinner’s chance after signaling to her that she was my ONE. Over like clover.

    @walawala wrote
    “This cuts at the core of the Red Pill. All sexual dynamics are mercenary. It’s all about what you can get and what’s good for you.

    Ridding yourself of the needy mindset is the first step towards unplugging. But the Red Pill isn’t a means to an end–I’m Red Pill so I can get a better
    relationship. Then I get that relationship and slip back into my supplicating beta ways.

    No.”

    NO, indeed, sir. If I were to have iron rules or directives about what you have referenced above, they would be:

    1. Do not EVER want a woman who does not want you first. EV-ER.
    2. When she finally does want you, refer to directive 1 and be mercenary in your lack of want of her.
    3. Thou shall not want.

  66. @ kfg,

    “Why not just keep your rational mouth shut, Just Get It and just DO it?”

    I’m thankfully finally beginning to “Just Get It”. The doing part…..well…..theory is always easier than practice but at some point one just needs to get on it and get moving. I understand that. This is a better mindset, I think to launch from though; but clinical application must follow lectures and theory at some point in the process.

  67. Glad that rollo finally wrote this. Right here right now – monogamy is shit. All relationship is borrowed time, so you better lease it on your own terms. Build maintain and recycle harems if you can; If not get some hookers. Or wait for a decade or something and buy a sexbot. Or rub it out. Or whatever.

    The pandora’s box has been opened and some things are never gonna go back in there – like socially accepted and mandated open hypergamy. So boys, you scratch my gal and i’ll scratch yours. And then we kick them out and grab a Corona.

  68. There is coming a new feminism. It is a ways off, but I can see the outlines.

    “You haven’t had children? Poor thing.”

    Childbearing is the essence of female nature. It gives a woman status among females.

    Signs to to look for: 50 yo single women expressing their regrets. The chorus should get very loud in the next 10 years.

  69. Ajax Parallax
    August 22nd, 2016 at 10:17 pm

    Do not EVER want a woman who does not want you first. EV-ER.

    Bears repeating. Often.

    My strategy is – “Snuggle with me naked, I like the body contact. No sex.”

    When you finally get her in bed she is thinking – “He will have sex with me if I get naked. He is so persistent. I might as well endure it.”

    When she gets no sex her thinking switches – “Is there something wrong with me?” About 3/4s come back gagging for it. And the other 1/4? You got to sleep naked with them.

  70. @Blaximus

    Awalt is real, but damn, is every female a lying, cheating, golddigging , mean and spiteful bitch? Is that rational and true?

    Just because a man grasps that women are how they are doesn’t mean he doesn’t get frustrated enough to rant and rave. Months/years without sex are… debilitating to reason. I speak from experience here. Shit sucks.

  71. “Their solipsism simply does not afford them the ability to introspect and therefore accept accountability for their actions and choices.”

    I don’t think that is entirely true. The LTRs attendance at my mothers death has changed her. At least for a while. She seems, at least temporarily, to want to feel good vs have the power. In other words she surrenders – for now. I treat her desire for power as another shit test. I turn on over bearing dominance. And especially, “OK. I’ll find a replacement.”

    For the time being she has surrendered. It has happened before. And then comes the “you are not respecting me” and a return to the war zone. I will report back on any interesting results.

    Oh. Yeah. I have been at it with her for 42 years. And I’m teaching her Game. But I disguise it as evolutionary psychology. Also – she was the limit of crazy I could handle. A HB9 back in the day. And smart enough to do trigonometry.

    Four children. The daughter is a HB9.5 – she models. She also has a degree in Chemical Engineering.

    Never promise monogamy. That was one of the things I absolutely would not promise.

  72. @ ShanksNes and @ M Simon,

    “The pandora’s box has been opened and some things are never gonna go back in there – like socially accepted and mandated open hypergamy. So boys, you scratch my gal and i’ll scratch yours. And then we kick them out and grab a Corona.”

    That’s it! Who gives a f***! Why be jealous or even care? Seriously! It’s not the new feminism that is coming. It’s the new male/masculine awakening that is on the horizon. I’m not talking MGTOW stuff either. It’s gonna be 1960’s Free Love 2.0 but from a male orientation this time around! Men are gonna start waking up EN MASSE to this shit and you’re gonna here lots and LOTS of clucking in the background – lol. The Huffington Hamster Post is gonna be on fire with this shit. Lots of bitter women in their 50’s living alone with all of their cats – lol. I think it’s gonna be a good/healthy thing going forward for EVERYONE and is gonna be amusing to say the least. If a brainwashed and indoctrinated/programmed beta chode like myself is learning about this shit – figuring it out and beginning to see behind the curtain, then lookout. Once men start figuring shit out (and I believe they will) Hillary as president – first executive order – shut down the manosphere and The Rationale Male and round up the alphas’ into concentration camps – lol. This shit is not getting back into the bottle. It will metastasize like a cancer eventually. Ironically, the collapse of the dollar could actually postpone the inevitable male awakening. In that scenario the female hive mind will intuitively know that they need to tone down their feminist BS for a little while with the occurrence of a currency devaluation – lol. It will eventually happen, though.

  73. @M Simon wrote

    “My strategy is – “Snuggle with me naked, I like the body contact. No sex.

    When you finally get her in bed she is thinking – “He will have sex with me if I get naked. He is so persistent. I might as well endure it.”

    Yikes. Too overt, brother. A lot of girls are savvy to this and have heard this exact line before in 2016. Believe me. And it’s not you who adulterated this approach, it’s all the dudes over the last 10 years who used this approach to get a girl in bed and immediately miscalibrated – instantly pegging the six dial to 10.

    It’s a given that the girl who is not going home is going to sleep in the same bed as me. I leave no choice. “You’re not sleeping on the floor or my couch. I have a huge bed and that’s where you’re sleeping in my house. I then say nothing and strip naked (regardless if this is my SOP). This is my domain and I am the apex male.

    At which point, most, if not all, of the girls in that sitch have seven layers of flannel (or no pants and some doofy sweater between them and their yummy parts. In that case, I roll over under the covers, feel them up and down, and say, with a nonplussed dismissive and disappointed smirk, ‘Yeah, that’s what I thought you’d wear. Ugh. Good night.’” And roll back over with my back to them.

    Guess how many times I then feel a naked body pressed up against my back?

    @M Simon wrote

    “My strategy is – “Snuggle with me naked, I like the body contact. No sex.

    When you finally get her in bed she is thinking – “He will have sex with me if I get naked. He is so persistent. I might as well endure it.”

    Yikes. Too overt, brother. A lot of girls are savvy to this and have heard this exact line before in 2016. Believe me. And it’s not you who adulterated this approach, it’s all the dudes over the last 10 years who used this approach to get a girl in bed and immediately miscalibrated – instantly pegging the six dial to 10.
    It’s a given that the girl who is not going home is going to sleep in the same bed as me. I leave no choice. “You’re not sleeping on the floor or my couch. I have a huge bed and that’s where you’re sleeping in my house. I then say nothing and strip naked (regardless if this is my SOP). This is my domain and I am the apex male.

    At which point, most, if not all, of the girls in that sitch have seven layers of flannel (or no pants and some doofy sweater between them and their yummy parts. In that case, I roll over under the covers, feel them up and down, and say, with a nonplussed dismissive smirk, ‘Yeah, that’s what I thought you’d wear. Ugh. Good night.’” And roll back over with my back to them.

    Guess how many times I then feel a naked body pressed up against my back?

  74. If I’m wrong on my futuristic predictions then we have this future to look forward to instead. Yikes, this is much more sad of an eventuality that I prefer to avoid contemptlating. If this is the future of male masculinity then it is a sad future for all of us. Good movie worth watching. Even the female AI program practices hypergamy in this movie. Just makes me sad (happy for Alan Watts, though). 🙂

  75. @hank holiday – I’m reading your current FRs and just wanted to remind you that you’ve come so far since you started going out regularly and posting FRs regularly.

    How long has it been? A couple of months or so? It may not feel like it but we can all see a big difference in your FRs and results – even the tone of the FRs.

    A tremendous difference from going out and barely opening girls to now getting consistent attraction, IOIs and number closes – even though you don’t have enough targets around you.

    So keep it up and your results will keep going up – especially when you manage to move to a new city with more targets.

  76. @YaReally In my case it was #4 her not understanding WHY she’s being Soft Nexted. Again see Blackdragon’s guide…she has to understand that the Soft Next is a direct result of her shitty actions and not just you being moody a few days later. That’s why you do it right away, so that she sees a direct cause/effect of her actions and your Soft Nexting her. You can also do shit like “you know, that thing you did at the party, that was a big turnoff, I dunno I just thought you were different from other girls…”

    She had a false pregnancy scare….false because she didn’t get tested, false because she was out having drinks…false because she never followed it up with any urgency.

    So I went ghost for a week. She texted me like 10 times. I ignored. Then I accidentally ran into her on the street quite randomly. Then she came out to an event and I had a go at her and then she apologized. Then i texted her per normal.

    Then she blew me off, refused to come over and said “You need to invite me over for a proper dinner”. I just blew it off, said “Oh, i see what you’re doing there” and haven’t contacted her since. Radio silence from her.

    I suspect she’s now chasing the orbiter and she’s really pissed off at me for not doing what she wanted…

    My strategy is to just move on and if she does contact me or follow up see how i feel at the time. But i won’t initiate. I’ve got a few things on the go anyway. But I’m always up for understanding what to do differently.

    Of the 3 plates I’m seeing, this one is the biggest drama queen with the lowest payback. Myeh.

  77. Funny part is that even if the gatekeeping “symmetry” were real, it would still be a losing game for men. Commitment is given once and cannot be reused as a negotiation point again. Sex on the other hand can be withheld repeatedly several times a week without negatve consequence andthus it can be (almost) infinitely used as a leverage in negotiation.

  78. Well, if you’re not married, commitment most certainly can be used as an ongoing negotiation point – it’s exactly why YaReally goes on about how your most powerful weapon is the ability to walk away (without significant consequences)

  79. @ Wala

    I have just one question : why exactly do you care if your girls have orbiters?
    I mean, they are not your GF, right? Why is that a problem that they text other guys, or even that they fuck other guys?

    Legit question, not trolling!! Because everything you write about, all this drama is totally alien to me, never encountered anything similar.

  80. @M Simon
    “Signs to to look for: 50 yo single women expressing their regrets. The chorus should get very loud in the next 10 years.”

    I’m seeing 46yos on pof wanting to start a family. lol

  81. @Klem I don’t belong to them. But while I’m fucking them, they belong to me. When I stop caring in any way…I stop fucking them.

    I don’t play second fiddle and it’s in the details. What I don’t know I don’t care about.

  82. Oh this may be worthy of its own post. But it’s relevant to the OP.

    I’ve descanted before on “yes means yes” and the death of dating. Well now look at this is working out – campus women find the legally-prescribed protocol boring and, well, demeaning:

    “Even in less extreme situations, young men are more skeptical of women’s ability or propensity to consent to sex, which some women on campus consider demeaning.
    “I find that men are more and more interested in ensuring that I’m consenting before sex, which would seem like a good thing,” Columbia student Dylan Hunzeker said. “But sometimes I don’t necessarily feel that way. Especially when I have to answer a man’s question: ‘are you sure you’re not too drunk?’ Or ‘you want to have sex with me?’ In a sense, it’s annoying and debilitating to be constantly questioned about whether or not I have agency and am a sexual human being.”

    “Men are scared of women on campus now, and fear breeds anger and prejudice. Women are frustrated by men, which inspires a lack of desire to collaborate for solutions.”

    http://heatst.com/culture-wars/columbia-student-the-damage-done-by-mattress-girl/

    So if you approach a girl on campus, you’re expelled as an assaulter. If you do what Ezra Klein and the sex police mandate, you’re boring and oppressive. Why go to college again?

    The quoted article is by a Columbia senior girl-type student!

    PS: The demeaning part? She’s absolutely right. But it’s THE LAW.

  83. “So if you approach a girl on campus, you’re expelled as an assaulter. If you do what Ezra Klein and the sex police mandate, you’re boring and oppressive.”

    You’d almost think that they want men powerlessly double bound.

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