When I first began writing on SoSuave over a decade ago I used to get into what I consider now some fairly predictable arguments about monogamy. It was an interesting time since it was around then I was getting into some heated arguments in my behavioral psychology classes in college.
I had just written what would later become my essay, There is no One and a good majority of my classmates and all of my teachers but one were less than accepting of the theory. I anticipated most of the women in those classes would be upset – bear in mind this was around 2001-02 and the Red Pill was yet to be a thing – what I was surprised by was how many men became hostile by my having challenged the soulmate myth.
I got a lot of the same flack from women then that I get from uninitiated women when they read my work now; “Aren’t you married? Isn’t she your soulmate? Don’t you believe in love? You must’ve got burned pretty bad at some time Mr. Hateful.” Those were and are what I expect because they’re the easy subroutine responses a Blue Pill ego needs to protect itself with. There was a time I probably would’ve mouthed the same. That’s how the conditioning works; it provides us with what we think ought to be ‘obvious’ to anyone. And at the same time, we feel good for ‘defying the odds’ and believing in what we take for granted, or common sense.
This is how deep the subconscious need for assuring our genetic heritage goes. For women this assurance is about optimal Hypergamy, for men, it’s about assurances of paternity. In either case, we need to believe that we will reproduce, and so much so that we will attribute some supernatural influence to the process of doing so. The fulfillment of your own sexuality is nothing less than your battle for existence, and on some level, your subconscious understands this. Thus, for the more religious-minded it gets attributed to fate and faith, whereas for the more secular-minded it’s about the romanticized notion of a soulmate.
Monogamy & ONEitis
I contemplated the idea of ONEitis for a long time back then. I’d most certainly been through it more than once, even with the BPD ex-girlfriend. By then I understood first hand how the belief absorbs a Beta and how it is an essential element, effectively a religion, for a Blue Pill life experience. I didn’t realize it then, but I was maturing into a real valuation of myself and I had the benefit of some real-world experiences with the nature of women to interpret and contrast what I was learning then.
Honestly, I had never even encountered the term ‘ONEitis’ prior to my SoSuave forum days. I referred to the soulmate myth in my writing as best I could, but it wasn’t until (I suppose) Mystery had coined the term. Outside the ‘sphere people got genuinely upset with me when I defined it for them. Back then I attributed this to having their ego-investment challenged, and while that’s part of it, today I believe there’s more to it than this.
The old social contracts that constituted what I call the Old Set of Books meant a lot in respect to how the social orders prior to the sexual revolution were maintained. That structuring required an upbringing that taught men and women what their respective roles were, and those roles primarily centered on a lifetime arrangement of pair bonding.
It’s interesting to note that the popular theory amongst evolutionary anthropologists is that modern monogamous culture has only been around for just 1,000 years. Needless to say, it’s a very unpopular opinion that human beings are in fact predisposed to polyamory / polygyny and monogamy is a social adaptation (a necessary one) with the purpose of curbing the worst consequences of that nature. We want to believe that monogamy is our nature and our more feral impulses are spandrels and inconveniences to that nature. We like the sound of humans having evolved past our innate proclivities to the point that they are secondary rather than accepting them as fundamental parts of who we really are.
Women, in particular, are far more invested in promoting the idea of ‘natural’ monogamy since it is their sex that bears the cost of reproductive investments. Even the hint of men acknowledging their ‘selfish gene’ nature gets equated with a license to cheat on women. This is an interesting conflict for women who are increasingly accepting (if not outright flaunting) of Open Hypergamy.
I’ve attempted in past essays to address exactly this duplicity women have to rationalize with themselves. The Preventive Medicine book and posts outline the conflict and how women internalize and ‘hamsterize’ the need to be both Hypergamously selective, but to also prioritize long-term security at various stages of their lives. Ultimately a woman’s position on monogamy is ruled by how she balances her present Alpha Fucks with her future prospects of Beta Bucks.
Seed and Need
It might be that women would rather share a confirmed Alpha with other women than be saddled with a faithful Beta, but that’s not to say that necessity doesn’t eventually compel women to settle for monogamy with a dutiful Beta. In either respect, the onus of sustained, faithful monogamy is always a responsibility placed upon men. The indignation that comes from even the suspicions of a man’s “straying”, a wandering eye, or preplanned infidelity is one of the most delicious sensations a woman can feel. Women will create syndicated talk shows just to commiserate around that indignation.
But in an era when the likes of Sheryl Sandberg encourages women to fully embrace their Hypergamous natures and expects men to be equally accepting of it, it takes a lot of psychological gymnastics to reconcile the visceral feelings of infidelity with the foreknowledge that a less exciting Beta will be the only type of man who will calm her suspicions.
It’s important to also contrast this with the socialization efforts to make women both victims and blameless. As I mention in the last post, men who lack the appreciation of the necessity to prepare for a sustained monogamy with a woman are considered ‘kidults’ or prolonging their adolescence. They are shamed for not meeting women’s definition of being mature; that definition is always one that centers on the idea that men ought to center their lives around being better-than-deserved, faithful, monogamous potentials for women’s long-term security and parental investment.
On the other hand, women are never subject to any qualifications like this. In fact, they are held in higher regard for bucking the system and staying faithful to themselves by never marrying or even aborting children along the way to do so. So once again, we return to the socialization effort necessary to absolve women of the consequences that the conflict Hypergamy poses to them – they become both victims and blameless in confronting a monogamy they expect from men, but are somehow exempt from when it’s inconvenient.
Pair Bonding
Arguably, pair bonding has been a primary adaptation for us that has been species-beneficial. It’s fairly obvious that humans’ capacity for both intra- and inter-sexual cooperation has made us the apex species on the planet. However, the Feminine Imperative’s primary social impetus of making Hypergamy the defining order of (ideally) all cultures is in direct conflict with this human cooperativity. A new order of open Hypergamy, based on female primacy (and the equalist importance of the individual), subverts the need for pair bonding. There is no need for intersexual interdependence (complementarity) when women are socialized and lauded for being self-satisfying, self-sufficient individuals.
Add to this the conditioning of unaccountable victimhood and/or the inherent blamelessness of women and you get an idea of where our social order is heading.
Both sex’s evolved sexual strategies operate counter to the demands of pair bonded monogamy. For millennia we’ve adapted social mechanisms to buffer for it (marriage, male protectionism of women, etc.), but the cardinal rule of sexual strategies still informs these institutions and practices:
The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.
In this respect, it is men who are expected to make the greater compromise due to an evolved sense of uncertainty about paternity and the social mandate to accommodate women’s sexual strategy.
The counter to this is that women have always borne the responsibility of parental investment if they chose a father poorly (or didn’t choose), but in our post-sexual revolution social order, the consequences of this responsibility have been virtually eliminated. In fact, those consequences are now viewed as evidence of women’s independent strength.
Even aborting a child is a source of pride now.
Men bear the greater effect of compromising their sexual strategies to accommodate and resolve the strategy of women. When we account for the normalization of open Hypergamy, soft cuckoldry, and the legal resistance to paternity testing (ostensibly centering on the emotional wellbeing of the child in question) it is much clearer that men bear the most direct consequences for compromising their sexual imperatives.
From Warren Farrell’s book. Why Men are the Way They Are (h/t to SJF):
Why are men so afraid of commitment? Chapter 2 explained how most men’s primary fantasy is still, unfortunately, access to a number of beautiful women. For a man, commitment means giving up this fantasy. Most women’s primary fantasy is a relationship with one man who either provides economic security or is on his way to doing so (he has “potential”). For a woman, commitment to this type of man means achieving this fantasy. So commitment often means that a woman achieves her primary fantasy, while a man gives his up. — P.150
Men who “won’t commit” are often condemned for treating women as objects — hopping from one beautiful woman to the next. Many men hop. But the hopping is not necessarily objectifying. Men who “hop from one beautiful woman to another” are usually looking for what they could not find at the last hop: good communication, shared values, good chemistry. — P.153
The meaning of commitment changed for men between the mid-sixties and the mid-eighties. Commitment used to be the certain route to sex and love, and to someone to care for the children and the house and fulfill the “family man image.” Now men feel less as if they need to marry for sex; they are more aware that housework can be hired out and that restaurants serve meals; they are less trapped by family-man image motivation, including the feeling that they must have children. Increasingly, that leaves men’s main reason to commit the hope of a woman to love. — P.159
Dr. Farrell is still fundamentally trapped in a Blue Pill perspective because he still clings to the validity of the old order books/rules, and the willfully ignorant hope that women will rationally consider men’s sexual imperatives as being as valid as their own.
That said, Farrell’s was the germ of the idea I had for the Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies, he just didn’t go far enough because he was (and still is) stuck in Blue Pill idealistic hopes of monogamy. Bear in mind, Farrell’s book is based on his intrasexual understandings of everything leading up to its publication in 1986, however, this does give us some insight into how the old order evolved its approach to monogamy then into an open, socially accepted form of Hypergamy now.
He relies on the old trope that men are afraid of commitment by reasoning that men only want to fulfill a fantasy of unlimited access to unlimited sexuality – all shallow, all superficial, while women’s priority of commitment is correct, selfless, valid and blameless. Farrell also reveals his Blue Pill conditioning by making the presumption that men only Game women in the hope that they’ll find a unicorn, and they’re endlessly fucking women for no other reason than to find a woman with good communication, shared values, good chemistry, etc.
I sincerely doubt that even in the mid 8os this was the case for men not want to commit to a woman, or essentially compromise his sexual strategy to accommodate that of women’s. Farrell never came to terms with dual nature of women’s sexual strategy and how it motivates women over time because he believes men and women have, fundamentally, the same concept of love and mutually shared end-goals.
Mandates & Responses
In the decades since this publication, the normalization and legal mandates that ensure men will (by force if necessary) comply with this compromise is something I doubt Farrell could’ve ever predicted. Legal aspects, social aspects, that used to be a source of women stigmatization about this compromise have all been swept away or normalized, if not converted to some redefined source of supposed strength. Abortion rights, single parenting (almost exclusively the domain of women), postponing birth, careerism, freezing women’s eggs, sperm banks, never-marrying, body fat acceptance and many more aspects are all accepted in the name of strong independence® for women.
Virtually anything that might’ve been a source of regret, shame, or stigmatization in the old order is dismissed or repurposed to elevate women, but what most men never grasp (certainly not Dr. Farrell) is that all of these normalizations were and are potential downsides to a woman’s Hypergamous decisions.
MGTOW/PUA/ The Red Pill, are all the deductive responses to this normalization, but also, they’re a response to the proposition of the compromise that the Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies presents to men in today’s sexual marketplace.
In all of these ‘movements’ the fundamental, central truth is that they all run counter to the presumption that men must compromise (or abandon) their sexual imperatives – long or short term. Thus, these ideologies and praxeologies have the effect of challenging or removing some of the total control of Hypergamy women now have mandated to them. Even just the concepts of MGTOW/PUA/TRP are equatable to removing this control.
However, it is still undeniable that there is a necessity for monogamy (even if it’s just temporary) or some iteration of pair bonding that ensures men and women raise healthier, stronger, better-developed children. We are still social animals and, despite what equalism espouses, we are different yet complementary and interdependent with one another. Mutual cooperation, tribalism, monogamy and even small-scale polygamy have been beneficial social adaptations for us.
Gynocentrism and the respondent efforts against it defeat this complementary cooperative need.
Gynocentrism / egalitarianism defeat this cooperation in its insistence that equalism, self-apart independence, and homogeny ought to be society’s collective mental point of origin in place of the application of differing strengths to differing weaknesses.
So we come to an impasse then. It’s likely it will require a traumatic social event to reset or redefine the terms of our present social contract to ever make monogamy a worthwhile compromise for men again. We can also contrast this ‘raw deal’ compromise against the Cardinal Rule of Relationships: In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least. It’s easy to think women simply have no need of men when their long-term security is virtually assured today, but fem-centrism goes beyond just separating the sexes by need. It wasn’t enough to just separate male and female cooperation, fem-centrism has made men’s compromise so bad that they must be made to despise their sex altogether. Men had to be made not only to accept their downside compromise but to feel ashamed for even thinking not to.
“Men bear the greater effect of compromising their sexual strategies to accommodate and resolve the strategy of women. When we account for the normalization of open Hypergamy, soft cuckoldry, and the legal resistance to paternity testing (ostensibly centering on the emotional wellbeing of the child in question) it is much clearer that men bear the most direct consequences for compromising their sexual imperatives.”
Alpha fucks beta B…
@yareally “Thing is she didn’t ditch you because of your age. She ditched you because of this:” … Ya, I totally get what you’re saying and there may be some part of that in the equation. However, she had previously divorced and older guy because he was ‘old’. She dumped the father of her 13yo son 2 months after he was born previous to that. She said she gave me a chance but she just could do it again with an old guy. I guess I should have taken her mountain biking to see the shit this old guy does.… Read more »
Sorry about your loss, Rollo.
@Rollo Stay strong. @YaReally/Disgruntled Earthling Many women set deliberately self-sabotage their relationships. It’s a very Cluster B/BPD trait. They will go out with an ‘older guy’ and then use that as a way of ditching him when it fails. My crazy ex used to love coming over to my place. But when she was attacking me verbally she suddenly said she hated coming over, I lived too far away blah blah blah. They attack things about you that you can’t change: age, logistics, job status etc. This triggers a core shame in you that is hard to shake without a… Read more »
@Misanthropist @Colbert @Kaminsky @hoellenhund2 It is easy to become angry and bitter towards women when you have to deal with their endless games, moods, manipulations and dishonesty. But you have to realize that women ultimately need to do this in order to survive. It is really nothing personal. By and large women don’t want to harm men merely for the sake of it. lol This was my entire point lol! It wasn’t that women NEVER intentionally hurt men, its that women on the whole do what they do because it FEELS GOOD and SEEMS RIGHT. Its especially rampant at places… Read more »
@Hank holliday Of course it is true that women have certain disadvantages that accrue to them by virtue of their biology. But who here is claiming that women have all the advantages over men (not just those that accrue by virtue of societal discrimination but also all those that accrue from biology as well?). You are debating a straw man. The problem with people like you is that you constantly demand that men should empathize with women’s perspective, even though it is obvious that women will never have the same understanding of men’s perspective on things (It is somewhat amusing… Read more »
“Understand where this comes from though. Throughout most of human history, a woman stuck around weak men would almost certainly end up being killed, either through starvation, animal attack, or attack from enemy tribes. Weak men were literally a death sentence for women. So this isn’t a case of “MAKE FUN OF THE WEAK MEN! DRINK THEIR DELICIOUS TEARS! AHAHAHAHAH!” Its “These men will end up getting you killed.”- Hank Holliday ————————————————————————- That is precisely the point I made before. Female behavior patterns that may have been necessary for survival in times when life was nasty, brutish and short can… Read more »
I didn’t go out tonight…instead I worked on my online game…men were attacking me and girls were defending me…then talking about using duct tape on me and cutting me…girls have the weirdest fantasies, lol
” . . . if you realize that you face a danger or a predator, do you keep on saying ‘well, understand that they are not inherently evil’? Or at some point do your survival instincts kick in?”
Yes.
“lol This was my entire point lol! It wasn’t that women NEVER intentionally hurt men, its that women on the whole do what they do because it FEELS GOOD and SEEMS RIGHT. ” I am not sure why you are loling at me. I never claimed that all of the ideas you raise are completely off-base. Rather, I merely point out that at times you frame the issues in a tendentious manner that encourages more sympathy for women than they really deserve. You don’t really engage with those points where I called you out. Plus, I don’t appreciate your desire… Read more »
I agree with hh. Women are usually not intent on shooting men down even when it seems as if they do. The shit testing can be ruthless, but deep inside she wants you to remain standing. Men realizing that women are not trying to be mean but are following a biological imperative that even your own grandmother followed, and your grandmother’s, etc etc to finally arrive at you. When you fail enough of those, then she will get disgusted with you. Biology. At that point, better move out of her way.
@cheupez As I say, people like you ultimately believe that women are a bunch of base, primitive animals that have no choice but to react based on emotions and primitive instincts. Whereas you expect men to be more noble and enlightened, able to see the bigger picture and how things fit in, and understand women for how they are. As a man, I thank you for the compliment. But we need to be wary that our better instincts are not being used against us. The problem is that women today are largely acting based on fears that may have made… Read more »
Hardly. Men are victims of biological imperatives too. Anyone can predict that for you (as a man), seeing grey hair on a pussy is disgusting. You do not want to hump wrinkled pussy. If you are one in a million who prefers the wrinkles, you are the exception, not the rule. Just like in all cultures, human waste is disgusting to eat, but there are such things as coprophilics/scatophilics. Women will be women. Men will be men. She can try very hard to cheat on her system but if she has hooked up with a suboptimal, the disgust will eventually… Read more »
@cheupez Where did I suggest that men don’t have biological imperatives (such as being attracted to young, fertile women)? Of course they do. The difference is that you and many others seem to expect men to have a greater capacity to look beyond these base urges and see the bigger picture, including women’s perspectives, than you seem to demand of women. One of the problems with society today is not so much women’s biological imperatives, but the efforts to blame men for the effects of these. For example, if women get caught in abusive relationships with men it cannot possibly… Read more »
Misanthropist
Just wanted to say I agree with your points one hundred percent, I have been thinking of a way to explain to my self and others, with as few words as possible, the problem with responsibility and expectations as far as biological imperatives goes now a days, and you hit the nail right on the spot.
@ Cheupez, “I agree with hh. Women are usually not intent on shooting men down even when it seems as if they do. The shit testing can be ruthless, but deep inside she wants you to remain standing”. Your so full of shit Cheupez and you know it. Women enjoy that shit and don’t try to pretend that they don’t because that’s a lie and you know it. Deep down women resent men for their power and the fact that they need to feed off of masculine energy to sustain themselves like a spider feeds off a bug caught in… Read more »
@Colbert Precisely. We should not resent women for their fundamental biological nature. For the most part they cannot help it. What we should resent is when the wider culture or women insist that women are better than they really are or hold men responsible for the effects of women’s choices and fundamental nature. If society was more honest about these things from the start, there would not be large numbers of bitter and disillusioned men out there once the truth dawns on them. @Lazarus Thanks. I know it is important to learn to be able to articulate these things effectively.… Read more »
The so called patriarchy was advantageous to women. Women were required to be descent in public. The more women practice open hypergamy (like rollo would put it: fuck the alpha in less than a hut and proudly rub this into the beta’s face…the beta they wish to lock in to provide a decent house later), the worse it is going to get for all women. I am all for fk dump at this point in time. Fk and dump requires game. Game requires doing stuff that most men find stupid. Nature is very stupid (see the peacock up there). Under… Read more »
Writing off poor behavior due to innate nature is just a fancy way to shirk accountability. It’s the same shitty behavior no matter how hamsterified the articulation. That “women will destroy everything but they don’t mean to and it’s mens’ fault if it they allow it” is deep indigo blue pill.
Instead of Plan B, Sandberg’s book is going to be called Option B, which better reflects women’s prerogative
https://therationalmale.com/2016/03/14/plan-b/
Rollo’s report of men expressing the most hostility toward red pill truths mirrors what Athol said on his old MMSL blog before he sold out. He expected a backlash from feminist harpies about MMSL after he launched it, but that very few of them ever came out of the woodwork. What actually happened, and what Athol didn’t expect, was the large number of guys raking him over the coals for daring to pierce their blue pill bubbles. The red pill can be painful indeed. While I was typing this, I went to Amazon out of curiosity to see how his… Read more »
Women have evolved to be more manipulative and dishonest than men for the simple fact that, in evolutionary terms, they needed something to compensate for being physically weaker and more vulnerable. If you go back to times where life was generally nasty, brutish and short, if you had the misfortune of being born as a member of the physically weaker sex in such an environment then it is more than understandable that you would have to hone every other weapon at your disposal for your own survival. Being born a woman was never a misfortune. Even in prehistoric times, being… Read more »
Push or shove the bitch back into her proper corner. As as MAN you do understand you are not being offered options. You put her straight back in her proper rightful place or, why are you even talking to a giant gushing gaping angry vagina who thinks she OWNS YOUR MANHOOD????
Redlight: “Red Pill terms are not that old, and Blue Pill Prof’s book is recent. My question is not about what occurred a decade ago, but if the Red Pill has given up on fatherhood. In particular what are you going to tell your son, find a unicorn?” Sentient: “Son: Have hand… never lose it. Men lead, women follow. Have her busy with children. Stay at home wife and mother. Keep your game on point, and keep exploring your options. Pursue the Platinum Rule…” BluePill Professor: https://therationalmale.com/2016/07/18/are-you-experienced/comment-page-9/#comment-164864 “Big Al- I am happy you are participating in MRP but you may… Read more »
The difference is that you and many others seem to expect men to have a greater capacity to look beyond these base urges and see the bigger picture, including women’s perspectives, than you seem to demand of women.
If women were men, then it would be reasonable to expect them to act and think logically and rationally like some men and therefore we could demand more of women. However….
Also, since men have to lead, we need to be able to understand the perspective of our followers…otoh, women aren’t called upon to lead.
@ Hank Holliday “A woman doesn’t go “I’m going to go take that dude’s dick up my ass and then eat the shit off his dick JUST to piss off little beta jimmy over there.” she may not do it to piss him off, but she IS doing it to get one over on him. Sex is a zero sum game for a woman, and men are attractive relative to other men. Women literally get off on NOT fucking beta and average guys…. when you fuck a girl with a great body you just like the body for what it… Read more »
@Rollo
My condolences. I hope everyone around him can take some comfort in his suffering finally ending.
@YaReally
Thanks for always being so helpful and kind.
@Rollo
I hope he passes painlessly.
Found the bitter divorcees. Lol The problem with people like you is that you constantly demand that men should empathize with women’s perspective Uh, no. Not really. Lol. My point was ONLY that women are not some cartoon character witches who dedicate their lives JUST to ruining men’s lives. I just keep seeing guys here writing stuff like: “Women are all evil manipulative smelly POOPYHEADS!” And I’m just saying, lol, there are some more nuances to that. I’m not CONSTANTLY DEMANDING guys to empathize with women. I’m only making the point that women aren’t some mindless agents of destruction. They… Read more »
Humans are notorious for thinking they’re better than everyone else. When asked to rate themselves on attractiveness, intelligence, driving ability — you name it — they consistently say they’re above average, which obviously isn’t mathematically possible. So it makes sense that people also believe their relationships are healthier than other folks’. Specifically, people think their own romantic partner has a much lower chance of cheating than the average member of the opposite sex. … Participants reported that they believe there’s about a 42% chance that the average person of the opposite sex either has cheated on their partner or will… Read more »
Hank – how old are you?
Hank, That is a whole lot of “LOLs” there. Don’t get a hernia laughing about how ridiculous we are compared to “Breezy Hank” the guy who just cruises through life, handling it deftly and ROFLING every 30 seconds apparently. Other than that, the binary swings in your argument make it largely irrelevant. Your insults are out of proportion also. For men to call out women when they can…well…it’s about time. It doesn’t make us ‘bitter divorcees’ with small penises who think women are ‘dirty devils’ or whatever you said. It’s just time for some balance. When one gender has all… Read more »
I’m fairly new to this website and enjoy reading the posts and comments but I am not too familiar with most of the commenters. Could someone tell me if hank holiday is a woman?
@ Hank Holiday, You need to understand that many of the men on this forum have suffered emotional abuse by the women in their lives. Most men have been programmed and conditioned to be weaker and more “beta” by society to better serve the FI zeitgeist of the last 60 years. A younger man might be able to have a softer perspective then older ones who have had that dazed and confused theme with the women in their lives. The bitterness many RP men have towards women comes about due to women and their complicity in perpetuating all the lies… Read more »
@Rollo.
My condolences.
By the way deep down many women who have ridden the CC know they are worthless, and at a subconcious level expect that real men will see them as such. At an instinctive leveln she will find men who do not realize this (men who will even supplicate to her worthless self) to be stupid. She is likely to treat him accordingly.
@ Cheupez,
I had to read that over a few times for it to sink in. That makes since. But what about that old saying “if she’s a whore treat her like a princess and if she’s a princess treat her like a whore”? Maybe it’s best to just treat all women like whores – lol. Just messing around with you Cheupez. I get what your saying. 🙂
This article in The Age newspaper normalising a woman’s post marriage FI: Wife reveals honest truth about sex after kids. ” I mean I’ve been turning him down for long enough I actually felt bad. Knowing it was only going to take a few minutes and I’ll have a day of any food I want to eat, listen to any music I want and an early night. Sounds delightful right?!” “The amount of times I have turned down this mans “charms” one would assume I was ungrateful. I think more tired and exhausted would describe it best. I’m not normally… Read more »
@ blogster,
I think one of the other commenters on this forum made a reference to a situation similar to this where he suggested the husband stop feeling “obligated” to keep meeting his wife’s needs by going to work every day supporting her and the kids and just basically go on strike if the wife stops meeting his needs.
@blogster
“This article in The Age newspaper normalising a woman’s post marriage FI:”
omg that kind of article (and attitude) still hits me hard.
So glad I bailed after 28 years.
So much recovering to do.
So grateful for you guys and TRP
@Hank Holliday Your overuse of lol is gay in the extreme. You need to broaden your repertoire of rhetorical put downs a tad. “Found the bitter divorcees. Lol” You’ve obviously got me pegged then. I have never been divorced. I am in fact fairly happily married for a couple of years so far. Thing is, nearly all women are ‘like that’ to an extent. But occasionally a woman comes along who is willing to acknowledge the less endearing aspects of female nature and try harder to please in other areas. So you say, ‘what the hell, she deserves a go’.… Read more »
I disagree about men making the largest sacrifice. Sure, men have to give up on their fantasy of a harem, but women also have to give up on the idea of securing commitment from a top 0.0000001% man.
An attractive, tall man, intelligent man with a helicopter, a killer job, condos all over the world, a willingness to hand over his cash for our frivolous shopping sprees, being the right balance of dominant and kind to keep the attraction going strong.
This is a bit of a stretch but you get the idea. It’s a two way compromise.
Men give up far more than the fantasy of a harem when they concede to making a woman’s sexual strategy his own priority.
“when you fuck a girl with a great body you just like the body for what it is, you’re not thinking about how it’s better than some other girls, she’d be attractive to you on a desert island with no other women to compare to …. when a woman fucks a guy she has to think he’s better than other men and hes fucking her because he is better than other men….” To be sure, a small amount of the attraction in pursuing, flirting with and being with an attractive woman is the knowledge that you are ignoring the plain,… Read more »
@Hank, I’ve been well-married for over 20 years now. Do I sound like a bitter divorcée?
@Kaminsky
Spot on. Our Hank accuses others of being like the feminists, yet he displays all the debating skills of your typical feminist. Anyone who disagrees with him is just a bitter loser with a small penis.
Sure, but women give up far more than the fantasy of a softcore Christian Grey as well. With marriage, they (typically) give up their youth or remnants of attractiveness. Women have more options than men early on, they give up on those when they commit. They give up their body (pregnancy), they give up their career to prioritize their family decreasing their independence. Men give up their sexual freedom, and take on a small financial burden, but caring for the offpsring of the female the male has established to be the best partner is a sexual strategy for him as… Read more »
No. It is within a man’s grip to actualize the harem dream. So it is actually qualifies as a sacrifice when he commits.But tha 0.000001% topgun man will not marry you. You can only marry the beta coz you cant get the topgun motherfucker to commit to you. So there is no sacrifice there, just a fantasy know you cannot realize.
Right, well in the same way that it’s highly unlikely for man to have a harem of the hottest women in the world (VS models) that will drop what they are doing to fuck him at a “come over” text, it’s unlikely to land a top 0.000001% man.
A more apt comparison would be a top 1% man. This is not as unlikely and would satisfy many women.
“Women have more options than men early on, they give up on those when they commit.” A woman’s SMV declines with age, whereas a man’s SMV tends to increase (at least up to a certain point) with age. Marriage is largely a contract between the sexes that is negotiated when the woman’s value is higher, but the man is still stuck with when his value starts exceeding that of the woman. How is this more of a sacrifice for the woman? She may give up some short term freedom. But she is largely locking in a long term contract when… Read more »
It’s a bit of a pandoras box. Some men age well, but I think the extent to which they age well is exaggerated. A lot of men age like grapes for whatever reason. They do age better than woman generally, I’ll agree. To be fair, I do advocate an age difference. Just because it’s wiser, if you go for a younger guy, it’s possible his SMV peaks and he goes mad at all the options suddenly presented to him. Once a man with 1 option gets presented 50, his personality will change in my experience. If you pair a 30… Read more »
@blogster The “no sex please we’re parents” thing is acknowledged as almost universal, and natural, though it’s supposed to be temporary. Problem is, sadly, it is often the top push on the downward spiral. Unless spotted and addressed ASAP, the fatigue lingers, arguments increase, unhappiness increases, the kid gets miserable and makes you miserable, then even less intimacy due to anger/exasperation, and whoopee! Dead bedroom! Dead marriage! See kid morphed into football, kicked back and forth between houses twice a week! See: 10,000 “too tired to fuck” posts on parenting.com. And a bunch of articles on how just having that… Read more »
debating goalpost size with purplepumpkineater, how useful
@rollo
condolences
” I’ve been well-married for over 20 years now. Do I sound like a bitter divorcée”
now that you mention it, “never ever ever ever get married” does sound familiar
Men are not looking for the 0.00001% woman. A man will find what a woman would consider an underling very fkable any time. If some hot girl is feeling too hot for him, she can bounce. It would appear that in nature females tend to be very hypergamous for very obvious reasons. Males are not. Pump n dump is a game a man is better equipped to play compared women. We all know the significance when it is applied at the same level by all men to all women. Why the family laws/divorce laws exist in the west is to… Read more »
Seems that Purple Birth Control Pill Eater is E m m y… just cant stay away…
@purplepill
Your arguments are stupid. Women have a very short time to capitalize on the resources they have available. Put simply: it’s not a sacrifice when nature’s going to take it from you soon anyway. Use it or lose it.
It’s the women who DON’T take the plunge that are ultimately fucking the female sexual strategy over. They need to lock a man down for resources as soon as possible. Failure to do so is failure to capitalize on their fast fading looks.
Sacrifice? My ass.
There’s a scene in the Swedish film “Force Majeure” which elegantly discusses the current status quo. The mother of the protagonist couple is in a ski lodge having a drink with her female friend. Female friend cracks a line about banging the server at the other side of the room. The mother is apoplectic- how can her female pal seriously consider checking fucking the muscular restaurant bellhop when doing so risks her stable home? The friend replies; no worries, we have an open marriage. Mama bear nearly pops a blood vessel. How can she LIVE with the total insecurity of… Read more »
XD
Unless the west enacts legislation that expressly forces all men to sign the marriage contract, marriage in the west is dead. Marriage/divorce law in the west is a mockery of justice. It is a cancer that has sucked the soul out of marriage. I do not see it surviving much longer.
dalrock keeps pounding out the home runs: … Since we pretended we still had a fundamentally marriage based family structure, initially men carried on as if that was the case. In fact, most men today still do so. However, over time the reality of the new system has caused not a marriage strike, but something more ominous. Just like with the Soviet system, this will continue until we decide the ideology behind the quota system isn’t worth the economic pain it inevitably causes. In the meantime, economists will remain baffled as to why married earn more than divorced men, and… Read more »
@ hank I happen to agree with much of what you state. I’m used to your sense of humor though, so I can see why some guys react differently to what you are saying. But opening with the bitter divorcees was sure to rankle. L.O.L. I’m not gonna comment on the whole ” marriage is dead ” thing. That’s been done here for years at this point. But I will take a second to say that overeating to situations as they are is just as bad as not reacting enough. Women aren’t demons or devils or anything of the sort.… Read more »
Duh….” But I will take a second to say that overeating to situations as they are is just as bad as not reacting enough.
should read – But I will take a second to say that overreacting to situations as they are is just as bad as not reacting enough.”
But overeating is bad too.
Maybe we can get one thing straight – the bitterness observed with encountering the red pill isn’t about women it’s about the lies we were told since we were five fucking years old! ‘Sugar and spice and all things nice’ ‘Slugs and snails and puppy dog’s tails’* to start off with and it goes on from there in the same vein. If ONLY the now accepted wisdom had been given us hard in our youth – these girls you fancy only want the best of you so be the best, we could have got behind that. Boys work within systems… Read more »
Obviously, meant to put after the * if you don’t get it just fucking google it.
the rhyme is a transparent lie, but it just sets the scene
purplepillpumpkin
I disagree about men making the largest sacrifice.
You’re new here. Might want to read a bit more.
With marriage, they (typically) give up their youth or remnants of attractiveness. No, dearie, women give up their youth and attractiveness before marriage nowadays. That’s why it’s called “settling” Women have more options than men early on, Yes, dearie, we know. That’s why you ride the cock carosel in your 20’s, deciding to ‘settle’ only with the approach of the Big 3-0. they give up on those when they commit. No, you don’t give up on those options, you just have to keep them on the down low. They give up their body (pregnancy), they give up their career to… Read more »
Having children outside of wedlock is not good for women.
I guess that’s why more women are doing just that every year, then…
@Blaximus I agree Blaximus. The “gnashing of teeth” about female nature should be a temporary transition, but men need a “safe place” to vent and let these things out as they process the bitterness of the RP. I will admit I’m a newbie as it hasn’t even been 8 months for me since taking the RP. It still hits in waves sometimes but hopefully will diminish over time (it has been). Again, it’s not female nature so much because at a certain point that can be processed and accepted. It is the lies, conditioning and programming we’ve been fed that… Read more »
@blogster
http://www.essentialkids.com.au/health/relationships/wife-reveals-honest-truth-about-sex-after-kids-20160801-gqi3dv
Need to find that man and send him to this site. Crap like this is why more men need Game.
@ Blaximus,
BTW I have really enjoyed your posts and have found them to be very insightful and educational. I have a lot of respect and gratitude for all that you say.
” . . . the lies, conditioning and programming we’ve been fed . . .”
. . . are female nature.
@ Colbert
Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.
Of course the pill can do a real job on men once swallowed. I agree that it takes some time to process and will invoke some heavy, negative emotions at first. I would never deny a man an opportunity to be angry or grieve.
We agree that this must be a temporary state. Everyone moves at his own pace.
But everyone must * move *.
@ Hank Holiday,
I’m not a bitter divorcee either. I’m just bitter. 🙂
@ kfg,
It’s modern day society and the FI. Female nature and collectivism are the reason for both the rise and the fall of civilizations t/o the course of human history. It may be the men that built all of “this” but it was the women that nagged and henpecked us to do it.
@ Blaximus,
YES. i agree with you on that wholeheartedly. One should not dwell in such a dark place for too long. Every man needs to take responsibility for their bitterness and eventually put it behind them. For if it was not for women I would not be as enlightened as I am now. I have them to thank for that. In a funny, twisted kind of way women really do make men better men Blaximus. Better and stronger.
” . . . collectivism . . .” . . . is female nature. Male nature is to divide into small groups based on skill set. “It may be the men that built all of “this” but it was the women that nagged and henpecked us to do it.” I have noted here (and elsewhere) a number of times a counterpoint to Camille Paglia’s famous quip that if civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts. If civilization had been left in male hands, we would be living in deer camps. I have… Read more »
@ kfg,
Haha………yes those are good points you make. I vaguely remember a survivor episode where they split the genders and the women ended up going over to the male camp because they could get nothing done. Not even a fire.
If current Open Hypergamy is the female sexual strategy’s victory, and Monogamy is a compromise between men and women (doubtfully worthy, for men), what would be a *victory* for men?
@ adamleonas,
That’s easy. It would be polygamy and spinning plates! Absolutely.
@Adam Leonas:
Open trial by combat.
@ Colbert
Yes there was a couple of comments exactly like that on the newspaper article and her facebook page. Not surprisingly, she responded with vitriol and claimed the commenters were being ‘negative’. Right.
@ Disgruntled Earthling
I am glad that as an economist by training I see everything as a value proposition. I am glad I haven’t taken the plunge and empathise with those who experienced what you did.
@kaminsky That is a whole lot of “LOLs” there. I’m just riding the lolercoaster of life. Don’t get a hernia laughing about how ridiculous we are compared to “Breezy Hank” the guy who just cruises through life, handling it deftly and ROFLING every 30 seconds apparently. Damn straight. @Allen3 I’m fairly new to this website and enjoy reading the posts and comments but I am not too familiar with most of the commenters. Could someone tell me if hank holiday is a woman? Yeah I’m emily @Colbert The bitterness many RP men have towards women comes about due to women… Read more »
“…what would be a *victory* for men?”
Male sovereignty. You keep what is yours. You keep what you earn and own, regardless of divorce. You have minimum 50% custody of your children. Alimony is obsolete and ‘child support’ is what you spend on your children when they are with you. Support given to an ex-spouse is voluntary and therefore based on goodwill.
Pair bonding and marriage is based on true voluntarism.
Women may learn to behave a bit less ‘evil’ if there were consequences again.
@Rollo: May your presence ease your friend’s passage from pain.
“…what would be a *victory* for men?” Spinning plates and open trial by combat are tactics (Wikipedia: “The terms tactic and strategy are often confused: tactics are the actual means used to gain an objective, while strategy is the overall campaign plan, which may involve complex operational patterns, activity, and decision-making that lead to tactical execution.”). That may lead to victory for men which is: release/freedom from constraint. Which may be interpreted as spinning plates successfully, or winning an open trial by combat. Sure “less sex-starvation” for men or getting laid-at-will with attractive, feminine women also fits in that model.… Read more »
@SJF: I was speaking of neither strategy nor tactics, but victory condition. The Male counterpart to open hypergamy is openly taking what you can. ” . . . sovereignty fits too . . .” The functional definition of sovereignty is being able to defend yourself. Note that I was also not speaking of a desirable state, but only the victory condition of male sexual strategy. The victory condition for the species is a balance of opposing forces. Just where that balance should be at any given time will be depend on the prevailing conditions. Populations need to be able to… Read more »
@hank holiday Support what you say 100%. Keep it up. Your overall mentality is the healthiest one for a guy to develop (though understandably you have an easier time developing it than a divorced older guy paying alimony and not allowed to see his kids etc because you don’t have a big negative history with getting burned). @all Most guys who are angry “at women” are really just angry at society in general for lying to them and at themselves for not figuring out it was all lies and it’s just this huge clusterfuck of anger at everything…but we like… Read more »
@ YaReally
Damn man….. I did a fairly good job.
Lmao.
“Note that I was also not speaking of a desirable state, but only the victory condition of male sexual strategy. The victory condition for the species is a balance of opposing forces.” Well said. The victory condition for the species (humans) has been too successful in evolutionary for forces to be balanced in 2016. So that leaves men in a One-Down position to the One-Up position of the FI and the result is monogamy and pair bonding is becoming a dying breed and yes the children will suffer. So adapt. I’m going to drop two chapters from Deida’s TWSM for… Read more »
Lol, WordPress just gave me this warning: “You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.” Chapter 20 of The Way of the Superior Man Don’t Suggest That a Woman Fix Her Own Emotional Problem Asking a woman to analyze or try to fix her own emotions is a nega- tion of her feminine core, which is pure energy in motion, like the ocean. She can learn to surrender her mood to God, she can learn to open her heart in the midst of closure, she can learn to relax her edges and trust love, but she will never “fix” anything… Read more »
When I was a Blue Pill guy and looking for that unicorn the concept of AWALT never occurred to me. It was All Women I Get Involved With Are Like That… (AWIGIWALT) Red Pill is about making smarter choices in who you let in. Game is the tool for that. You make the choice. The BPD Girl is a Blue Pill dream because she requires minimal effort before she’s madly in love and chasing you. Suddenly your whole world is upside as you’re thinking “Wow how could I be so lucky?” All these concepts here: Abundance Mentality, ZFG, Escalation, IOI’s—they’re… Read more »
Two great chapters SJF…
“Two great chapters SJF…”
Carefully curated to say the same thing as YaReally.
And relate to the original post.
(Content curation is the process of gathering information relevant to a particular topic or area of interest.)
In the end The Bachelorette decided her pick with every hypergamous instinct Rollo ever wrote about. No harm done.
And the new headlines on People magazine with be: I knew I could trust him to be more Alpha with better Game.
Turns out:
“she wants to be able to trust the unshakability of your loving, she wants to feel in her bones that your
divinemasculine presence is stronger than your distractibility.”Jordan wasn’t distractible. Robbie was.
Heh, KFG: “If civilization had been left in male hands, we would be living in deer camps.” “Populations need to be able to both rise and fall to insure survival.” The damn doe population at my deer camp needs to fall. To ensure the damned buck population’s ascendance. It’s going to take a like minded tribe of quality deer management guys. What’s funny is with the dynamics is that there have been guys whining about traumatic events like Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (EHD) that wipe out a lots of deer in pockets. I have been praying for an event like that… Read more »
Population and birth rate is a serious concern. There are threads on r/TheRedPill about young men trying to get vasectomies (doctors often refuse, shop around). As best as I can tell PUAs and MGTOWs are not considering having kids anytime soon, if ever. It seems the “never marry” position generally assumes only having kids on your terms, if at all legally possible, which it isn’t. When you look at Germany and Japan the birth rates mean by 2060 the countries are gone as they are now. Japan will be a shell since they will refuse mass immigration, while Germany will… Read more »
@ SJF, Thank you for those excerpts. Those are examples of the kind of positive masculine cynicism that many of the men on this forum need. So, I thank you for that. @ Hank Holiday and at Ya Really, Okay Hank, I’ll divulge something about myself. First off I’m a recovering “edge lord”. Like Scribb, Softek and many others on this forum I am the product of abusive and neglectful parenting. A weak, BP father who never really gave a damn, a mother that would leave me alone in the crib while she listened to Neil Diamond and dosed herself… Read more »
What I find funny about all this debate about alpha fucks and beta bucks is how practically nobody seems to be aware of the fact that the “beta bucks” part is an aberration which only came about with civilization and large organized societies with a body with monopoly for legal violence. Before that the resources belonged to those who were able to obtain and defend them. The idea that a beta who works hard has more ressources than a strong alpha is historically very recent and geographically quite limited. And so, how would women not be confused? They are wired… Read more »
The funniest part of SJF’s recent posts: right after he posted the one about a man ejaculating too soon because the woman goaded the man, SJF get’s a “Slow down” warning… From WordPress.
@ IAS,
HeHe, I didn’t catch that but you’re right. Glad to see SJF is getting a little something on the side with his Word Press!!
Please don’t interpret my wall of rant as being angry at women for the misdirection young men get as a negative start in life. The real culprit is the nebulous ‘system’ or unspoken man bad/woman good inference we’re all familiar with. It’s the same expectations which give women shorter sentences in court and is dying to give women the benefit of the doubt. Where the hell did we get this idea that girls are all angels? We here know this is not the case but we have to get by in a world where it’s taken as a given and… Read more »
@ just getting it,
That was a good rant. I agree.
@Colbert “I think very highly of Rollo as I’m sure all that you guys do as well. Although I don’t know him personally I would hazard to guess that one reason he is so dedicated to this topic comes from his own experience with a BPD.” Read this as to why Rollo is so dedicated to this topic: https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/26/whats-your-problem/ And here is your link to Illimitable Man’s Lost Boys: https://illimitablemen.com/2014/05/08/the-suffering-of-the-lost-boys/ 7.) Advice For A Lost Boy: “Take up as many hobbies as you can afford to, fill your timetable with them. Fixate on becoming better, you’re not going to settle… Read more »