Blue Pill Frame

BluePillFrame

Establishing and internalizing a strong sense of Frame is one of the most fundamental aspects necessary for a man’s personal success. I’m hesitant to use the word “success” here because it subjectively means so much to men on an individual basis. “Success” is a relative term, but I intentionally began the Iron Rules of Tomassi with Frame because an understanding of this principle applies to so many different arenas in a man’s life.

It’s far too easy to conflate Frame (and the hoped-for success that can come about from it) with a power-of-positive-thinking motivational vibe. Developing, maintaining and internalizing a personal Frame isn’t derived from motivational thinking. That’s not to say it doesn’t help, but Frame can align either on realizable realities informed by Red Pill awareness or it can be founded on deeply ingrained investments in Blue Pill conditioning.

For some men, a Blue Pill mindset, and the conditioning principles that formed it, is the foundation of what they convince themselves is a very strong, very ‘correct’, establishment of Frame. It quite literally is the reality into which they expect a woman will want to be a part of and will want to readily cooperate within. The problem, of course, is that the Frame they’ve developed is informed by Old Rules/Blue Pill goals that mischaracterize the truer natures of women and what their motivations are.

This insistence of women adapting to a Blue Pill Frame is the root of many a Beta man’s downfall when a woman has finally run out of Alpha Fucks options during her Party Years and she’s “turned over a new leaf” in the necessitousness of her Epiphany Phase. Women aging out of the sexual marketplace are only too happy to appear to be a Beta man’s Blue Pill ship that’s finally come in.

Behold, Camelot

I have heard many times, from well-intended Blue Pill men, some variation of the Just Be Yourself self-righteous expectation that women should want to enter into his Frame. “If a woman can’t accept me for who I am, she’s not the right (quality) woman for me” is the standard refrain. The Frame is strong, the expectation is (seemingly) strong, but the Blue Pill foundation it’s built upon is flawed because it is influenced and conditioned by the Feminine Imperative that always expects him to focus outwardly instead of making himself his own mental point of origin.

If they were honest, these are the guys who will Beta Hamster their Blue Pill ideal of the ‘right’ girl being any one who acknowledges his Blue Pill Frame.

There’s usually some self-evincing rationale that sounds similar when a Blue Pill guy has his Frame challenged by a woman unwilling to play along with his “world”. Whether he comes to this by rejection or simply observing women’s solipsism and duplicity, the reasoning is never about the validity of what his Frame is based on, but rather the disqualification of a woman who contradicts his ego-investments in it (i.e. they become “low quality women” to him).

However, many a White Knight will have what, for all purposes, is a very strong personal Frame. This dedication to a Blue Pill conditioned mindset is central to their ego-investments and it’s a big reason why it’s so difficult to unplug a man from it apart from some trauma that shakes his investing his personality in it. And even then, it’s far easier to disqualify the women who want nothing to do with his Frame than it is to get him to reconsider his fundamental, Blue Pill, old books belief-set.

As I was picking apart the conditions that lead to a man like Steve from last week’s post to becoming what he is, I found it’s important to highlight the determination with which most men will defend their Blue Pill investments and defend the investments of other Blue Pill men with whom it aligns with.

From Enter White Knight:

Every random chump within earshot of your conversation about Game, about your ‘changed’ way of seeing inter-gender relations, about your most objective critical observations of how women ‘are’, etc. – understand, that chump waits everyday for an opportunity to “correct” you in as public a way as he’s able to muster. That AFC who’s been fed on a steady diet of noble intent, with ambitions of endearing a woman’s intimacy through his unique form of chivalry; that guy, he’s aching for an opportunity to prove his quality by publicly redressing a “villain” like you for your chauvinism. Even under the conditions of relative anonymity (like the internet), he’ll still cling to that want of proving his uniqueness just on the off chance that a woman might read his rebuff and be fatefully attracted to him.

The more invested a Blue Pill man is in his Frame, the more ardent a White Knight he’s likely to be. The problem in all of this is that his dedication to that Frame, and the expectation that ‘quality women’ will rationally and deductively appreciate it, is in error. Women fundamentally lack the ability to fully realize, much less appreciate the sacrifices a man makes to facilitate their reality. Even the most enlightened, appreciative woman you know still operates in a feminne-centric reality.

It’s easy to spot (and get annoyed with) a White Knight when he comes to the aid of M’Lady on an internet forum, but the defender-of-the-faith behavior also extends to other men, like himself, given to the same Blue Pill Frame and ideals. From a Red Pill perspective we know this is virtue signaling, but it’s also indicative of reaffirming a White Knight’s dedication to a Frame and belief-set that requires a constant reassurance in the face of so much observable contradiction.

Blue Pill Frame / Red Pill Awareness

In the manosphere, there’s a tendency to characterize the Blue Pill mindset with non-assertive “people pleaser” men conditioned from an early age to defer to women and sublimate themselves to the Feminine Imperative. For the most part, that generalization fits, but I think it’s important to understand that it’s entirely possible for otherwise very Alpha men to invest themselves in Blue Pill paradigms and then build Frames up around them.

While I was writing this, reader Softek had a very good take on how Frame can be applicable from both an Alpha and a Beta perspective:

Steve’s relationship is PERFECT.

It is in EXACT ALIGNMENT with his Frame.

His Frame, which he voluntarily maintains, is that of a Beta male. Weak, submissive, and priming him perfectly to be cuckolded.

Similarly, my relationship with my GF is perfect.

It’s in exact alignment with my Frame.

This is how it always works. It’s the only way it CAN work. Your Frame is your reality, period, end of story. I’m sticking to this idea of women having no Frame, because I think it can help men to realize that the man’s Frame – as far as the man is concerned – is the only thing that matters.

I’m going to stop here because this is one of his few assertions I don’t entirely agree with. Women’s innate sense of Frame is informed by their fundamentally solipsistic nature. How that solipsism is expressed can take different forms, but in all instances it places the experience of the woman as being central to her own importance.

The easy example is the Frame grab I outlined in The Talk where a woman (consciously or otherwise) seeks to assert her experience as being the primary Frame or when a man abdicates his Frame to satisfy a woman’s need for long-term security. The other side of this is that even when women are considered ‘powerless’, and they are acted upon (hypoagency), their solipsistic experience is still central to the nature of any Frame because that presumption of powerlessness informs her solipsism and she builds her Frame around it.

Women most definitely have a Frame; it is informed by solipsism and its state is determined by what her need for optimizing Hypergamy demands at any phase of her maturity and how well she is likely to consolidate on it. I understand what Softek is getting at here, but just observe Beta men who are trapped in submissive roles to their dominant wives and you’ll see how he’s acted upon within her Frame.

If your Frame is what you really want it to be, you’re all set. You will simply not put up with BS, so it won’t be necessary to calculate what kind of BS or shit tests are being thrown at you, because you’ll automatically pass them without even being conscious of them.

At a deeper level, there is no your reality vs. her reality, or who has more power in the relationship.

It all goes back to your relationship with yourself. Your Frame. You decide what you accept in your life, and what you don’t accept.

Everyone has been telling me to get out of my relationship. Why? Their Frame is different. Maybe they have more self-respect. Maybe they have more confidence. But ultimately, their Frame is different.

They would not put up with half the BS I’ve put up with. They would’ve been gone a long, long time ago and onto greener pastures.

I’m getting what I deserve. I’m getting the relationship that is PERFECT for me, which means it’s perfectly aligned with my [current, malleable, changeable] Frame.

Frame isn’t set in stone. It’s ours to control, and ours alone, because it belongs to us each individually.

If I want a different relationship, I need to change my Frame. What do I want? What am I willing to accept? What am I not willing to accept?

This is a very important point, to understand that Steve’s relationship is PERFECT….for him. A complete match with his Frame.

If you dig into WHY he’s in this relationship, it’s for that reason and that reason alone: it resonates with his Frame. It resonates with the perception he has of himself, and the rules he’s laid out for himself in his life.

He is doing exactly what an Alpha does: living 100% by his Frame.

It’s just that his Frame is weak and submissive instead of strong and self-serving.

It’s funny when you look at things like this. When you realize you’re already “Alpha” in the sense that you know how to live 100% in your Frame….what’s stopping you from changing your Frame?

You already know what it’s like to hold Frame. Not everyone can stay in an abusive, sexless relationship. It takes a pretty extreme Beta to put up with all that. I am a fucking Beta God. I will put up with more abuse than any man on this planet. I’m the most abject Beta in the world.

(I’m being deliberately hyperbolic here, bear with me)

The most abject Beta is simply the other side of the Apex Alpha coin.

Both stubbornly hold to their Frame. The Beta holds to his Frame to his inevitable cuckolding and destruction; the Alpha holds to his Frame to his self-gratification regardless of who tries to shame him or bring him down.

We need to stop thinking “Beta Bad” and “Alpha Good” and realize that Frame is subjective.

I may not agree with some of this, and considering Softek’s dependence on maintaining his relationship it’s easy to see why he feels this way, however, he does touch upon some foundational aspects of Frame. Yes, women get the men they deserve, or in this case, women enter into relations with the men who align with what they’ve created.

As I mention in Frame, yours should be a world women will want to enter or you will be entering her Frame. That said beware the motives of the woman who would eagerly embrace a Beta’s Frame. Those motives are rooted in necessity and not genuine desire. Just ask Saira Khan.

Understanding that a solid sense of Frame – literally creating a reality in which you live and expect others to interact within – is central to success is not a difficult concept to grasp for most men. Whether or not they feel an ownership of that Frame, or a motive to employ it, is what defines men’s understanding of it. And this discomfort men have in insisting upon a solid, active, Alpha Frame is precisely what the Feminine Imperative has sought to condition into men for going on five generations now.

Recently I’ve been commenting on yet another article of feminist triumphalism, glorying in the statistics that women are far happier after a divorce. This is standard feminist boilerplate, but the bloody handed cruelty of articles like this always ignore that the “men” they denigrate are the direct results of a generational conditioning that leads men to swallow Blue Pill idealism and abdicate Frame in the name of a nebulous egalitarian equalism.

As 39% more men put a gun in their mouths after a divorce, women will bemoan a generation of men the Feminine Imperative created to abdicate their Frame. So yes, when it comes to men becoming despondent and suicidal after having their Blue Pill idealistic ego-investments destroyed by the same imperative that invested it in them, yes, “Beta Bad” and “Alpha Good”.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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babysnakes
babysnakes
6 years ago

Sentient wrote: “Enjoy the lesson. It’s got little to do with her and everything to do with you.” Yes. I know. The circumstances she crafted to end this thing, the fact that we had to end it on a poisoned note, it’s just a huge blow to the ego s’all. Especially cuz I don’t want to be angry and bitter at her, but some part of me wants to call her out anyway, even though that’s absolutely NOT right action 🙂 I thought I deserved better, HA! I thought I was the shit, and perhaps I was, in the beginning…… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@babysnakes Welcome the the adolescent-social-skill-set scene. Be thankful for the lessons you learn. I presume were talking about early twenties year old girl that has intrinsic value of beauty? She’s merely playing instinctive LYAHF game. It’s helpful you have insight into this and act accordingly. I.e don’t get sucked into the game she is playing. Her behavior is normal operating procedure but clearly shows she is not long term relationship worthy at this station in her life. So play your commitment card appropriately and look to plate theory. https://otrazhenie.wordpress.com/2012/12/12/sexual-game-lets-you-and-him-fight/ In ‘Games People Play’, Eric Berne defined games as: “A game… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

“… clearly shows she is not long term relationship worthy at this station in her life. So play your commitment card appropriately and look to plate theory”

also clear is that he has already worked this out

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

babysnakes: “It’s been a complete mindfuck to watch this trainwreck happen in real-time, to feel my instincts telling me to get out, get out! Yet not pulling the fuckin’ trigger!”

Oh,….. Really?

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Babysnakes The circumstances she crafted to end this thing, the fact that we had to end it on a poisoned note, it’s just a huge blow to the ego s’all. Especially cuz I don’t want to be angry and bitter at her, but some part of me wants to call her out anyway, even though that’s absolutely NOT right action:-) I thought I deserved better, HA! I thought I was the shit, and perhaps I was, in the beginning…😉 Nah not that… Not about her and what she did. This here is the core lesson: “I’ve been so fucking stupid… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@babysnakes I begin to fall for her and after half a year, I tell her that I perhaps wouldn’t be able to handle her fucking anyone else. She tells me that she wants to know when I’ve been with someone else. any of these plays works…. say “right now” and walk out like this or say ‘sure’ and then or just anything that communicates ‘lol you trying to dictate terms TO ME? no, i don’t think so.’ She was so fuckin’ heartbroken and then she turns around and does something like this to me. The level of solipsism is just… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

“Especially cuz I don’t want to be angry and bitter at her, but some part of me wants to call her out anyway, even though that’s absolutely NOT right action.”

Good call:

https://therationalmale.com/2011/11/15/rejection-revenge/

Harrison Bergeron
6 years ago

Why is it okay to call a girl sexy or hot during roleplay or rapport like the below examples? Because it’s not a compliment, and simply said matter-of-fact? It feels incongruent even reading it to me… I’m sure you guys can clear this up for me. From @hank example “You two look like super heroes. Yeah. You’re the smart one. Like batman. You use all your intuition and detective knowho to track the baddies down. And you. You don’t really do anything. You just sit around and look sexy. Your superhero suit is like a thong and bra, that’s pretty… Read more »

having a bad day
having a bad day
6 years ago

@Forge @YaReally Yeah, HABD took me to the carpet for not hitting on some younger 2-set cause ‘they might be under 18.’ So I looked it up and AOC is 16 where I live. ya, i did… lol… but even IF it was illegal to have sex with them, you should have STILL interacted with them… do you remember WHY?… (hint – hot older sisters…lol…) but now that you KNOW, it’s all good…lol… Oh, FWB was at a place today I was meeting people. Wasn’t expecting that. Super sheepish, like she was wondering if I was gonna be dramatic, but… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

Here is something interesting:

scray
scray
6 years ago

okay, so not in as much of state high as yesterday, let’s see if this goes any better lol @ya If I remember right Scray, you were already going out with a group of friends to nightclubs with girls…so you back then would have been in this exact category of like “not a complete social martian weirdo” but also “not sexual subcomms”. yeah but zero sexual anything with girls over a 5. and since i made it my personal mission to pretty much punch above my weight at the time, i may as well have been a martian. that was… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@harrison

Why is it okay to call a girl sexy or hot during roleplay or rapport like the below examples? Because it’s not a compliment, and simply said matter-of-fact? It feels incongruent even reading it to me… I’m sure you guys can clear this up for me.

it’s almost 100% of the time never good to compliment a girl on her looks before you’ve fucked her.

at the same time, i mean….it’s not that big of a ding (but if deployed correctly can be a huge DHV)…so it’s just something that can slide.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

I was a little dickish last night to a younger man…I asked why he was playing Pokémon on his cell at a board game meetup–in front of others…it was a fair question and other guys commented later not to wait for the guy to play a game because he’s gone…”it’s just ‘John’ (not his name)”. He seems very smart and generally socially skilled to some degree…said he got arrested at a party once…but obviously not one of the cool kids.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

She: “I get hit on by creepy older guys.”

Me: “Let me get my walker.”

having a bad day
having a bad day
6 years ago

@Forge
@Sentient

Do NOT trust your instincts…

You are way too nice guy and rational and logical. I know you know what to do.. but in the moment you are defaulting to bad or at least worse game positions to work from. Fight your instincts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RerJWv5vwxc

lol…

good luck!

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

@SJF “She is shitting where she works. And rubbing it in his face. He should be stoic about that. And is should not be a motivating factor negative (which he admits to getting him down) or positive (picking up a new plate in a client–which I’m claiming is not unethical, nor illegal–there is no such ethics invovlved. What is the case here?–name the risk and the harm to the client, please) ” I don’t care what the fuck his job is or what his family was like or whether he wants monogamy or not. If you haven’t seen the fucking… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

Yeah, this dude was kind of setting himself up as a lolcow…I started going to the meetup with the idea of helping young men who are awkward with women. I wasn’t trying to be mean or dickish last night, but it just seemed off for him to be sitting at the table playing a solo game (eventually wandering off to collect Pokemon eggs, I guess) while others were playing a game together. He seems generally well-liked and is quite articulate. Oh, the word is “tenets”, not “tennants”. Other people may not know and there’s enough vagueness in language without adding… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@ya Not sure what makes you think it would in any way relate to the humor It’s not the HUMOR it’s how the humor is used….to hide and conceal or to express. you’re literally assuming that its all self-amusing and that this is Hank’s natural everything based on very little. Man, I hate calling you out on this but you’re making shit up dude. Nah, I’m not. them to afterparties and coming to theirs etc etc are “not cool well-liked guys” because of some weird bias you have lol and here’s why. when you KNOW them, you HEAR about what… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@scray I get what you’re saying about trying different stuff, even if it goes against your natural inclinations. I’m doing that myself, to experiment and stretch my boundaries. Every time I go out, lol. I find that dancing is peacocking and also gets women to A3 quickly (at least a window opens if I want to move quickly), but that I don’t NEED dancing and that even my social circle game is far ahead of where it used to be. I’m slightly mindfucked by a girl who looks like a girl from the neck down and a boy from the… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@ya Again it feels like you’re projecting or something. The stuff the guy writes about what he wants to say seems legitimately self-amusing to him. He’s not saying “I should joke about old men wanting to fuck me because she’ll like that and really I’d rather be serious but I think I have to make her laugh so I’ll focus on that”…he’s saying “lolol this makes me laugh I should try saying it and then do that move to A3 thing you guys are talking about” lol and I’m not trying to come off as a dick or rude to… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
6 years ago

“people who hide behind humor do this to themselves. They’re afraid of taking things to that level with a girl and so when they pour on the humor, they naturally are pressing the brakes (even tho they may want to be pushing forward logically).”

agree. humor doesn’t give tingles (see 90% of stand up comedians)

humor/wit is just an acceptable bonus when you’re already sexy

much better to lean towards charlie manson than larry david

Andy
Andy
6 years ago

“…maybe we’ve had two different experiences, or you’re just thinking of how people who don’t know those guys that well view them. they’re so rare anyway that it’s like a whatever marginal situation to begin with…”

Are they really rare? I seem to attract these types of guys in my life for whatever reason. Life of the party, hilarious, literally rub their balls in girls faces types of guys. lol. etc. Ever since I’ve gotten into this stuff I’ve been thinking to myself. Wow, all those guys need is to learn how to escalate. Period.

fleezer
fleezer
6 years ago

“I should joke about old men wanting to fuck me”

contrast this with ya’s riff about how he was just supposed to meet a fuckbuddy but her boyfriend got back into town early

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

@scray “to hide and conceal or to express” You still haven’t said what makes you think he’s doing that other than “I did it when I started and some guys do it”. I don’t see anything he’s doing that isn’t just standard newbie learning-to-calibrate. If he was like 5 years in and spitting these Field Reports, cool, but he’s a newbie. “you’re literally assuming that its all self-amusing and that this is Hank’s natural everything based on very little.” It’s based on more than you’ve provided in the opposte direction is my point lol Like you haven’t provided ANYTHING except… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

@fleezer “agree. humor doesn’t give tingles (see 90% of stand up comedians)” lol no. Do you guys think every pickup looks like James Bond? You just have to add a sexual edge to the humor and show intent with the girl. Tons of stand-up comedians COULD be getting laid like crazy, except they don’t know how to pull the trigger. It’s not about being scared to make a connection and shit, it’s just no one explained to them “hey dummy an ioi looks like this, and when you see this ioi, qualify her and then go into comfort” If they… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@ya You still haven’t said what makes you think he’s doing that the stuff he comes up when he riffs always seem to derail him moving forward. it’s a pattern. but nothing specific to hank from his FRs that can’t be chalked up to just “not knowing how to spot iois and go to A3 or how to go to A3 yet”. you can chalk it up to that, or you can chalk it up to ‘shit getting nervous about having to push forward, here let me tell a joke or say some funny shit…’ You’re just wrong man. Sorry,… Read more »

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

@scray “the stuff he comes up when he riffs always seem to derail him moving forward. it’s a pattern.” Because he didn’t know he should move forward until now and he doesn’t know how TO move forward smoothly yet lol The pattern I see is he likes black chicks because they’re outgoing and more engaging which means he enjoys more energetic back and forth conversations over the boring ESL “pulling teeth to open them up” convos. The pattern I see is he keeps coming up with raunchy offensive sexual things to say when we say “come up with something funny… Read more »

scray
scray
6 years ago

@ya

do you disagree with this advice — get a stack like this —>

opener
2 or 3 DHV stories/routines
1 cold reading activity
2 or 3 C&F routines
1 or 2 ‘crowd control’ lines (for people who try to fuck with you, ex: ‘is she always like this?’ or another good one ‘who brought their little sister to the bar/mall/wherever?’

does that advice look like ‘you’re doing the wrong curls’ or whatever else?

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Give the guy a few weeks to try doing some bicep curls before you change his whole exercise routine up.”

Bad habits are harder to break than good habits are to establish.

M Simon
6 years ago

babysnakes July 8th, 2016 at 4:34 am The general advice is STAY AWAY. Unless you want a very long term project. You must be extremely well disciplined. Way more than even the average around here. You must want to retrain her core being. Bring her out of the False Personality her experiences have instilled. And you must choose wisely. Is she damaged beyond your means to help? Get several plates that she knows about. So when you tell her to go away she knows you have options. I did it. It has turned out tolerably well. I don’t recommend it.… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Scray, YaReally

Don’t worry, I think you’re BOTH pretty.

hank holiday
hank holiday
6 years ago

Stack completo here’s the basic outline OPENER (cold read) SPIKE BT (roleplay, DHV) QUALIFY (“So what do you do when you arn’t doing [cold read]?”) —–first response “Uuuh. You like THAT? —–second response is to walk away, but come back “gonna give you one more chance since I am such a nice guy.” —–third response “Serious? You like that? Huh that’s pretty cool.” COMFORT/RAPPORT —–get her talking, be only midly interested in her. Then cut her off —–“You’re full of shit. You’re making this up. I don’t like liars” and walk off again —–after she pleads “no no, I AM… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

“Ever since I’ve gotten into this stuff I’ve been thinking to myself. Wow, all those guys need is to learn how to escalate. Period.” The difference this makes is amazing. The FWB I had going basically viewed me as this crazy sexy guy, to the point where even now she starts being openly sexual w me just by being around me. Then is like ‘I don’t know why I said that, I should NOT be talking to you like this.” And then does again. This in spite of the fact that my game wasn’t polished, logistics were poor, I’m no… Read more »

The Awakened One
The Awakened One
6 years ago

@yareally

Messaging for the next generation of “men”:

http://www.trueactivist.com/these-7-things-have-nothing-to-do-with-rape-but-perfectly-demonstrate-consent/

scray
scray
6 years ago

@hank rather than trying another style that feels clunky and bores the hell out of me. —> You know, when I first met you girls I thought you two were just a pair of irremediable drunks. But I see now there is a lot more to you than I thought. I’m a little impressed = going into qualifying through a serious observation (there is a lot more to you…) = what was said and seems to generally apply about my examples ( —> Right, this is solid and going into qualifying etc (A3) pretty much every example gave was setting… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

FR Got comped into the bar by a bouncer buddy…yay…there was a band playing…no dancing until 10…boo…I left to go read TRM at Taco Bell where I was comped free cookies…yay…danced with a lot of girls…taught a couple who asked me to teach them…asked a HB8 to dance…she refused saying she only danced with her guy…I asked her guy permission to ask her to dance…he allowed it…I danced with her…she asked for my number…better than for a date…she was interested in private lessons…money!…end of the night a girl asked me to dance (HB6-7)…she wanted to dance close…then back-led herself…I called… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@KFG July 8th, 2016 at 3:28 pm “Give the guy a few weeks to try doing some bicep curls before you change his whole exercise routine up.” “Bad habits are harder to break than good habits are to establish.” Follow up on this comment. Not saying this applies to Hank, but it is a general talent, mastery and game (esp.PUA game) point to keep in mind. Tip #46 from Daniel Coyle’s Little Book of Talent based on his Talent Code: DON’T WASTE TIME TRYING TO BREAK BAD HABITS—INSTEAD, BUILD NEW ONES When it comes to dealing with bad habits, many… Read more »

kobayashii1681
6 years ago
redlight
redlight
6 years ago

Some excellent BB pointers in this woman’s FR: https://www.thestar.com/life/2016/07/09/dating-diaries-we-were-liberated-enough-to-split-the-bill-but-not-for-him-to-treat-me-like-an-adult.html – BB should not “bait and switch” to a cheaper venue – BB should pay the bill even if dating a post-wall reminded feminist (PWRF) “I’m a feminist, I reminded myself, of course I should be expected to pay half the bill” – BB should not notice that alcohol consumption is more (or only) by the PWRF “He announced that I owed more than him because of the wine I’d ordered” – BB should be decent looking but not great “I was relieved that he wasn’t some superlative-looking guy that would… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

We were just outside the city,
at the shopping mall.
Send laywers, guns and money,
this bitch has hit the wall.

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

Quick drive-by cause I gotta hit the shower asap: @Scray You forgot to quote the part above that emotional bit, you know, where he’s flat out confirming exactly what I’m saying: “This is very true. I like talking about offensive things, breaking social norms. Its funny to me. Or poking at people to get funny responses from them — like with the Clarissa deal with SJF. And I like to get girls to blow up — like with the stripper bit the other day with thedrive thru waitress, or the “juts buy me a cookie.” blakc girls. The stuff I… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

“Don’t worry, I think you’re BOTH pretty

…silly. All y’all.

scray
scray
6 years ago

@ya You forgot to quote the part above that emotional bit, you know, where he’s flat out confirming exactly what I’m saying: I didn’t forget about it. I quoted what I thought was the most important part, where he says EXACTLY what he LIKES. Yes you CAN get emotional impact through serious shit. But you can also get it through all the shit Julien does and that’s more in line with how Hank enjoys interacting with people. So just roll with it and add in A3 and he’ll be just fine. Cool, so we agree that there’s a huge playground… Read more »

Sentient
Sentient
6 years ago

Heh.. Well there is still the lack of kino…

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

“Well there is still the lack of kino…”

Far be it for me to say that you better get from A1 through A3 and into C1 successfully before you do some in-congruent kino.

Or you will be singing either some Mindless Self Indulgent songs like “Clarissa” or perhaps Radiohead’s “Creep”, or Beck’s “Loser” to yourself.

I could be wrong….

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

“No more drinking for Forge” Nooo but I still have half a liver lol (Was an obscure joke tho I admit) @SJF Nah, kino in C1 is fine but the sooner the better really. I’ve opened girls with kino in the right context. You can use kino AS a way to comfort her but the overall point of it is just to be/show you’re comfortable touching her. It makes you physical to her and shows calibration and confidence simultaneously. I sent you and Scribb a FR once where I used kino as an A2-A3 spike by pulling a girls head… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

“Nah, kino in C1 is fine but the sooner the better really. I’ve opened girls with kino in the right context. You can use kino AS a way to comfort her but the overall point of it is just to be/show you’re comfortable touching her. It makes you physical to her and shows calibration and confidence simultaneously.” Would you believe me if I restated: “You want to be congruent and provide Kino in A1 through A3?” Otherwise you look like Maxwell Smart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te_zQxcRVvM Pardon my cold reads, but I can see Forge (or Sentient) the lover not the fighter doing… Read more »

Aaron Cox
Aaron Cox
6 years ago

Isn’t it easier establishing frame if you select partners under your SMV? For myself, if I cannot establish sexual energy with a girl within the first few minutes of talking to a girl I’ll just move on to a more average looking girl. From my experience, the less attractive girls are much more rewarding.
I’m relatively new to this stuff and was directed here from your book. I’ve never had problems getting women, but I’m wondering if this mentality might be what you call bill-pill conditioning?

hank holiday
hank holiday
6 years ago

Didn’t get to do much today, but did what I could. EXTREMELY tired, but went out anyway. Mall in bad city. Blakc girl walking towards entrance. “Hey, do you guys have a big storm down here the other day.” “Yes” “I was at a mcdonalds and a lightning bolt actually struck the place.” “Seriously?” “Yeah. And then I heard this “AAAAAA”. Ends up one of the workers got shocked. Nothing serious, but scared the daylights out of him.” Was interested, but not quite at really hooking her, and she was very busy at going to work, think she was heading… Read more »

Ranger
Ranger
6 years ago

Ive been reading this blog and its comments for 1 year now. Also read TRM’s books (I actually got to the first book before I knew about the site). It has been a wild ride, as I used to be pretty much the definition of an AFC. Have been married twice, with the 2 women I had sex with, as I used to believe in no sex before marriage. No kids. My life has become, so far, perhaps more difficult, but certainly more interesting and fun. Divorced my wife, who was basically a sex-denying bitch, and am starting a far… Read more »

The Awakened One
The Awakened One
6 years ago

@yareally

Another manosphere mention in mainstream media: http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/07/economist-explains-1?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/

Plug for the rationale male in comments

roar
roar
6 years ago

Re-frame

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@Ranger A little bit about your first question: Giving value is starts first with (Red Pill Awareness) “Seeing reality for what it is is the first step in changing it.”– Tom Leykis and then (GAME) “Become the best version of yourself.”– Neil Strauss “What exactly is the difference between “giving value” and being a submissive people pleaser?” That is false dichotomy. Being a submissive people pleaser is well explained in Robert Glover’s book No more Mr. Nice Guy. If you even have to ask that original question, you need to read that book or explore it’s concepts. Being nice isn’t… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

For any of you guys new to or confused by all this PUA talk about Mystery Method, here is a concise overview: http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/cat/Before_PU/basic/280.html If that link doesn’t work, Google Search: “Mystery’s M3 Model” And just to clarify comments I made about kino yesterday, it is a comfort tactic (for learned Game or a natural expression by a Natural). If attraction is assumed, go for it. Kino: A pickup artist term for haptics, or non-verbal communication through touch, the purpose of which is her becoming comfortable with growing levels of intimacy between the two of you. Haptics: is any form of… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

I tried to post this twice, but perhaps the link is being blocked so no link this time. Abstract Altruism plays a role in mate choice, particularly in women’s preferences and in long-term (LT) relationships. The current study analyzed how these preferences interacted with another important mate choice variable, physical attractiveness. Here, female participants were presented with photographs of men of varying levels of physical attractiveness, alongside descriptions of them behaving either altruistically or not in different scenarios. The results showed women preferred altruistic men, particularly in LT relationships and that this interacted with physical attractiveness such that being both… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

Hey – interesting repudiation of the egalitarian many here may enjoy:

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@Ranger

How do you give value? By being engaging, playful, and sexual with women. By leading women and making decisions for them.

With everyone, you give social proof by greeting and chatting with them. By giving them hugs. By not caring what they think. By not doing it in order to get them to like you. You risk.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

” By not caring what they think (about you). By not doing it in order to get them to like you. You risk.”

Woman archtype = status focus = knowing what others think about them and caring about that more-so in the subjective sense than in the objective sense

Man archtype = conquest focus = knowing what others think about them and caring about that more-so in the objective sense than the subjective sense

theasdgamer
6 years ago

One barrier that I had to kino is that I didn’t feel that I had a right to touch women. I got past that barrier by thinking of people as my people. My tribe. My kin. That enabled me to give off an engaging vibe and give women brief touches, pats, hugs. I enjoyed shaking men’s hands and giving them pats on the back because I genuinely liked them. The same with women. Otoh, last night a young man was a dick and I backturned him, even though he was with several attractive women. I found out last night that… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@Ranger some more: Your value is that you possess a single match and a candle. You could: Use your match to fulfil someone else’s request that you light their candle. They will thank you and then walk away leaving you to sit alone in the dark, or feel bound to you, come to resent you for their obligation, and eventually curse you and then walk away leaving you sit alone in the dark. Your candle is now useless at best, a burden at worst. Use your match to light your own candle. Then use your candle to light dozens of… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

asd – “I got past that barrier by thinking of people as my people. My tribe. My kin”

Look, not trying to rile you up, ….. I’m genuinely interested to know ….. as such how do you make that determination wrt which people are your tribe ….your kin? All people? If not all people – what is the psychic/cognitive/emotional sieve to differentiate? Are you aware of the internal process or is it just spontaneous?

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

kfg: “Use your match to light your own candle. Then use your candle to light dozens of other people’s candles, increasing the amount of light available to everybody. You will make it a priority to guard your candle, because it is useful to both your self and others. You will always have companionship because although there will be some that resent the way you guard your candle, many more will think of you as the bringer of light.” Your allegory sounds very much like a representation of the ontological conception I put foward earlier in this thread: “This particular conception… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@TheMan

All people, unless I get a hostile vibe.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Seeking the many perspectives: Implied as a necessary condition of the golden rule as motivations and focus are not always precisely aligned.” It has been pointed out by several that there is no such implication in the Golden Rule. You are adding that on yourself as you believe that there ought to be such an implication, because you find it desirable. If I were Chinese I would kill myself so that I might be more quickly reborn as a human being. Ergo, as a human being (i.e. Japanese) I am doing a favor to the Chinese by wielding The Sword… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

asd – “All people, unless I get a hostile vibe.” Yeah – that is the way I try to go too. I notice it takes a higher psychic energy state – I need to be feeling plenty positive and optimistic towards others, in order to interact with others the way I prefer (which I guess is the way you prefer too), ….. that my goodwill should extend to all people (unless proven otherwise). For me, it seems that any butthurtness in one’s life needs to be well-processed and transformed into “understanding” for this higher energy state to emerge. So ……… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@Hank I think you’re doing great. Part of all this discussion is Ya and Scray ‘talking shop’ about how to teach pua effectively and you’re just caught in the middle. Rather than them harping on your performance. Re: kino: ya, you’ll get there. It took me a while to touch girls much and I still balk sometimes esp in daytime/mixed sets but it made a HUGE difference when I got to a point where I could use it well w some girls. But one thing at a time 🙂 it would have been bad probably if I had started using… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

Egalitarianism and altruism, especially kinship altruism, were evolutionarily selected for. Human emotional and social needs evolved in the wilds out of Africa when they were essential for survival and reproduction. They were selected for and they worked in small groups. Humans were then successful in taking over the fucking world. But then came the Agricultural Revolution, the Industrial Revolution and the made up trust in money and Capitalism. Things changed. You no longer need egalitarianism and altruism in today’s world to pass your genes on. These traits are emotional vestiges and @The Man you still have these urges. Early humans… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

@kfg

‘Your value is you have a match and a candle….’

Excellent.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

kfg – “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. Look – I guess what people keep missing is that in the statement there is a wish to be treated in a certain way by others, and furthermore, the virtue of being the initiator of the reciprocation, so implied. So the basic impetus of GR is that you want to be treated well by others and therefore you should treat others well. It presupposes the similarity between yourself and others wrt ontological capacity, but in the examination of the ontological it should become immediately obvious to anyone… Read more »

Forge the Sky
Forge the Sky
6 years ago

Welcome @Ranger! 1. See kfg. Your state is primary, because nothing good comes from you to anyone when it’s off. 2. Don’t use it as a buffer. You might need to approach more to get more girls who you can actually talk to. So approach more. Also, use the ploy of asking girls to help you practice the language. Make it fun for them to help you and they will. 3. Don’t burn out the attraction with overmuch texting. Dial back. Tell her you’re busy and text less. Build anticipation to the visit. But let her be uncertain what’s going… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@man

” “Egalitarian” is a terrible concept, so easily hijacked by others that only wish to tie you to their service. The machiavellian operation within human affairs is full of this stuff. Enough with this egalitarian crap. Throw that concept in the dung heap where it belongs. Each man decides for himself …”

exactly, you are making progress

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

redlight – OK what you have said about the egalitarian is very true (i.e. – the portion of your comment where you say – “so easily hijacked by others that only wish to tie you to their service. The machiavellian operation within human affairs is full of this stuff”). My contention is that this condition occurs because the underpinnings of the egalitarian mindset are glossed over. So …… what says you about said underpinnings by way of the 4 elements I outlined above? As well – why not go ahead and work out such underpinnings for “honor” and see what… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

@The Man: “. . . it should . . .”

There you go again.

“The “honor” of the samurai or Chinese equivalent should not be used to dismiss the basic precepts of the GR . . .”

. . . because that flock of black swans aren’t really black. They’re just differently white.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

SJF – by your last comment I take it that we agree on a whole lot more than we disagree on, wrt the cooperative qualities of humankind. The difference of opinion seems to be centered on how much of this translates beyond smaller groups, into the larger and larger organizing platforms of people as beings with personal agency. You said: “They were selected for and they worked in small groups. Humans were then successful in taking over the fucking world. But then came the Agricultural Revolution, the Industrial Revolution and the made up trust in money and Capitalism. Things changed.… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

kfg “. . . because that flock of black swans aren’t really black. They’re just differently white.”

Yes. But it isn’t “should”. It “is”. The evidence is on my side.

scray
scray
6 years ago

@hank First and foremost, we’re all on the same side. So lol…like, the only reason I’m here batting it back and forth is because I strongly believe this stuff WILL HELP you. You have a ton of motivation and you have a lot of natural strengths that are real promising and like, I feel an obligation to pay it forward. You guys are acting like I am some really experienced guy coming in and doing PUA I really am not…. And you guys are like “Why aren’t you using kino? Why aren’t you dragging her off to fuck in the… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
6 years ago

“Do you guys think every pickup looks like James Bond?” we all know they don’t. but Bond could tell all the jokes he wants because his subcomms scream “I fuck hot women”. preselection means you can do all kinds of shit, be it jokes, offensive name calling, ass pinching, whatever. a guy with zero lays is not in that category. he cannot afford to improvise or make mistakes because his subcomms will not support them “Tons of stand-up comedians COULD be getting laid like crazy, except they don’t know how to pull the trigger.” humor does not make pussies wet.… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@TheMan

one needs only differentiate those who, in the moment, do not wish to abide by “all us”

I see no reason to assume agreement of any kind. I simply choose for myself.

scray
scray
6 years ago

@fleezer i AGREE that humor, in the way most guys use it, isn’t that great and doesn’t DHV. But humor can be used in this way. wit is sexy because it’s showcasing a form of dominance roleplaying and humor on that level is sexy because it’s showcasing how you can control her emotions and lead her, i.e. dominance and nah, i totally disagree with this game/etc. evolved before humor. humor and creative intelligence and all of that shit is part of the same thing. the ability to SHAPE ANOTHER PERSON’S MENTAL REALITY. it’s the same ability that creates religions and… Read more »

fleezer
fleezer
6 years ago

“But humor can be used in this way.” absolutely. if you have the subcomms and experience to support it “wit is sexy because it’s showcasing a form of dominance” absolutely. it’s a core part of my ltr game (twenty years later). when I was first getting my dick wet though, nobody was laughing because I was all kino. and when I’m really into a girl these days, I don’t say much at all. verbal expression can be interpreted differently than a guy intends. all kinds of shit that’s out of his control comes into play. it’s very very hard to… Read more »

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

asd: You said: “One barrier that I had to kino is that I didn’t feel that I had a right to touch women. I got past that barrier by thinking of people as my people. My tribe. My kin. That enabled me to give off an engaging vibe and give women brief touches, pats, hugs. I enjoyed shaking men’s hands and giving them pats on the back because I genuinely liked them. The same with women. I said: “Look, not trying to rile you up, ….. I’m genuinely interested to know ….. as such If not all people – what… Read more »

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@TheMan

then how do you make that determination?

E.g., someone cuts short a convo/doesn’t provide social proof/etc.

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

asd – “E.g., someone cuts short a convo/doesn’t provide social proof/etc.”

From that you infer the hostile vibe. Right? OK – how do these referenced actions imply hostility?

Blaximus
Blaximus
6 years ago

Kino is a funny thing. Interesting conversation concerning the ” deployment ” of kino and it’s effects. Personally, I touch almost every female I talk to, wherever I am and under any kind of circumstances, and it is not always a good thing ( even though I’ve yet to get any bad reactions….but I feel it coming…one day..lol ) because it happens before I can logically think about it, or even stop myself. I lack kino calibration. Funny thing happened re: kino at my 4th of July cookout. My wife’s aunt attended, and it was also her 68th birthday, so… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

@ranger

Blax dialogue just above is a good example of giving value. There is nothing submissive about it, he leads the conversation through out and gets emotional state changes.

theasdgamer
6 years ago

@Blax

You enjoy being obnoxious and engaging. I enjoy doing that, too. I need to deliberately plan to do that every time I’m around people in order to build good habits. Girls enjoy men who are obnoxious and engaging.

You’re the type to give out Hertz donuts.

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

“Girls enjoy men who are obnoxious and engaging.”

This is a Madonna/Whore type oxymoron.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

the latest emily rant is great: RP guys all seem to share several traits. They have a very high desire to have sex. But they also lack the ability to get it. They are probably not very good looking or charming. Unlike, say, some STEM guys, they actually don’t have many hobbies or goals, and their number one desire seems to be to get sex. It seems to completely consume their life. They are egotistic and feel that they deserve a girlfriend, and sex, but they don’t have one, so they are bitter. They direct this bitterness towards women. So… Read more »

kfg
kfg
6 years ago

That’s our Emily. Ain’t she just the cutest lil thang?

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

When Emily’s BF hit her last year after she was yelling at him, did she:

a) report him to the police or campus authorities
b) write extensively about the abuse on social media
c) research online for makeup techniques to cover black eyes and bruises
d) seek the support of her priest

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@Blaximus I’m not at all at a loss of interpretation for the kino situation. Kino has to be congruent to how a man is perceived by a woman. It is not difficult to realize that kino from an alpha male is welcomed by women (hence you don’t get in trouble in real life) and it is unwelcome from a random beta male or a perceived incongruent male. Blax said: “It’s part of my personality that I have trouble controlling. I don’t get many negative reactions.” Blaximus, you are an icon here and an icon in your family because you are… Read more »

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

thanks to SJF for putting some space (okay, very useful text) between the question and answer, which was

c) research online for makeup techniques to cover black eyes and bruises

since she has to be the cutest lil thang

The Man
The Man
6 years ago

“Most guys can get girlfriends and sex
Of those who can’t, a sizeable amount don’t care too much and have other goals and hobbies
Of those who DO care, a sizable amount are composed and sensible enough to understand that it’s not the fault of every woman that they are in the situation they are in.”

The weird thing is Emily is basically right about this part of her assessment. But she thinks that redpill buy-in must mean such redpill men do not fall into any of the above categories – which of course is just blatantly false.

YaReally
YaReally
6 years ago

Kino’s not necessary. It’s just a tool like any other to demonstrate “I’m comfortable with human touch, man to woman touch, sexuality, etc” You can demonstrate that in other ways, from sexual stories/conversation topics, to good sexual laser eye-contact, voice tonality, cutting space (whispering sexy stuff in her ear) etc etc I rarely kino and often don’t even touch the girl until we’re in my apartment (aside from holding my elbow out with my hand in my pocket for her to hook her arm in arm-in-arm on our way to my apartment from the Day2 location). Physical approaches are cool,… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@The Man oh, Man To me: “A such it is quite clear this needs to be sorted out at the individual level, and as such, perhaps a new gestalt can take hold, spread, and save us from ourselves (and probably instead bring ascending glory). I’m betting on the side of the humans …….I’m invested that way. What about you?” To ASD: “asd – OK – I assumed too much then. I’m still curious though – so my question now is – how do you make that determination wrt which people are your tribe …. your kin? You say – all… Read more »

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

@redlight July 10th, 2016 at 2:57 pm

Can I buy a clue? I’m more of an over communicator and that went right over my head.

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

“Most guys can get girlfriends and sex
Of those who can’t, a sizeable amount don’t care too much and have other goals and hobbies

Of those who DO care, a sizable amount are composed and sensible enough to understand that it’s not the fault of every woman that they are in the situation they are in.”

I can see her non sequitur showing.

redlight
redlight
6 years ago

I gave a multiple choice question, and needed space so one would have to scroll down/read down to see the answer

SJF
SJF
6 years ago

Redlight: “When Emily’s BF hit her last year after she was yelling at him, did she: c) research online for makeup techniques to cover black eyes and bruises” KFG: “since she has to be the cutest lil thang” Is that a true story? Cause it sounds legit to me. For the boyfriend to strike her. That guy had to be one frustrated dude. I would have bet she would have run to her priest until I paused and realize she is a liar and the Churchian thing was just a power trip in her sexual strategy. Hide the vagina and… Read more »

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