Our Sisters’ Keeper

sister's_keeper

“Men are to blame for women’s behavior. The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Hypergamy (open or otherwise) wouldn’t be the unrestrained social juggernaut it’s become without men’s complicity or accomplice.”

This quote is a go-to rationalization I read a lot from women just coming to terms with their first taste of the Red Pill. Unfortunately it’s also become a common refrain among certain sets in the manosphere; this rationale is usually particular to the moral absolutist strains of the manosphere.

When I read it from women it’s kind of ironic considering it usually comes from women who share in the same moral absolutism, who were “so different when they were in college”, but they’ve had their Epiphany and “got right with God.” They often cling to the Strong Independent® identity for themselves, but turn over a rock and show them the visceral, observable, ugly truth of unfettered Hypergamy and then, then it’s men’s partial or total responsibility for fostering women’s conditions.

It becomes men’s fault for not having the fortitude and presence of mind to correct them when they needed it – never mind the lifetime of Blue Pill conditioning that taught them judging women made them misogynistic assholes. I understand axiom that men and women get the men and women they deserve, but I wanted to explore this blame game dynamic a bit more.

From Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany:

The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.

When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.

As I was writing the Adaptations series it occurred to me that men on the ends of both the Alpha and Beta spectrum adapt their own sexual strategies in accord with the sexual marketplace and how that environment dictates the approach to what seems the most efficient.

As I stated in the last post, Hypergamy is nothing if not pragmatic, and efficient. However, men’s adapting to the “market” dictates of Hypergamy has to be equally efficient if that guy is to fulfill his own sexual imperative. Pragmatism doesn’t have time for how things should be. You make the best play with what’s in front of you.

Just to illustrate, for about 25 years or so, popular culture strongly pointed men towards a sexual strategy that could be defined as Beta Game. Play nice, respect a woman by default, be supportive of her self-image and ambitions to the sacrifice of your own, don’t judge her and do your utmost to identify with the feminine, was the call to action that, deductively, should make a man more attractive to a woman.

Furthermore, the intrasexual combat amongst men for sexual qualification was (at least ostensibly) focused on out-supporting, out-sympathizing, out-emoting and out-identifying with the feminine more so than other men. To set oneself apart from “other guys” the seemingly most strategic tact was to accept what women said they wanted from men. To pragmatically effect this men gladly joined the chorus of ridiculing conventional masculinity; denouncing and resisting the very element that would in fact have set them apart from the nebulous “other guys“.

So while this is an illustration of men’s deductive pragmatism in their adapting to the SMP, it’s also an illustration of how that adaptation can work against men’s best interests. Between the 80s, 90s and into the early 2000s this adaptation involved men following women’s lead to systematically turn conventional, positive masculinity into ridiculous or gay-associations of “macho-ness”. Later, defining the very idea of masculinity would progress from ambiguousness to women being the sole authority of what masculinity should mean to a man.

Women and Moral Agency

For as long as I’ve read and commented on Christo-Manosphere blogs a common thread has cropped up again and again; the debate as to whether women have the same moral agency or the same accountability for it as men. I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.

My point here isn’t to reheat that debate, but rather to see how it feeds into the rationale that men are in some way responsible for what contemporary women have become, and how they’ll progress if men don’t assume some responsibility for women’s behaviors.

Hypergamy is pragmatic, but it’s also inherently duplicitous. It’s unjust and unforgivable to a guy who doesn’t measure up to his burden of performance. When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?

Much in the same way we were Blue Pill conditioned to presume that our idealistic concept of love was mutually shared by women I would propose that men’s concepts of justice, honor, and (from an intrasexual perspective) respect are dissimilar from those of women.

For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.

All that needs to be sorted out is reconciling those action with the concept of justice held by men. In the intersexual arena, what best serves men’s imperatives is justice. Up until the sexual revolution the balance between the sexes’ concepts of justice was mitigated by mutual compromise – each had something to lose and something to gain by considering the other sex’s imperatives.

For roughly the past 70 years this balance between the two concepts has listed heavily to the feminine. Our age has been defined by women’s unilateral and ubiquitous control of Hypergamy, and as such it is women’s sexual imperatives that is biologically and sociologically setting the course for future generations.

Along with that unprecedented control comes the prioritizing of women’s concept of justice above that of men’s. We can see this evidenced in every law, social convention or social justice movement that entitles women to rights and privileges that free them of any accountability for the negative consequence their Hypergamously based behavior would hold them to in a concept of justice that men would have.

I would also argue that women’s inherent solipsism reinforces this separation of concepts of justice between the sexes.

Rivelino had a good take on this on Twitter:

1 The woman is always the victim

2 Nothing is her fault

3 She is not responsible for her actions

4 A man is to blame

To which I’ll add a 5th: Any fault is always a ‘strength’.

The problem I see in assigning the blame of women’s behavior to men’s lack of control is that, presently, men have no real control nor does men’s concept of justice align with that of women. There’s a manosphere idiom that says women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I’m not sure I completely agree with that.

That’s not to be defeatist, or an endorsement of a MGTOW course of action, but it is to say that if a man has neither the sex appeal to be a short term sexual prospect nor the provisioning appeal to be a long term investment, women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.

And yes, that’s pretty fucked up if you, again, find yourself on the sharp end of it. Men’s adapting to the intersexual conditions set by women isn’t some deterministic prospect, but the idea that the mass majority of men would be responsible for the state women find themselves in is ludicrous. There will always be men willing to accept the sexual dictates of women because it serves their breeding imperatives. It’s good for him personally and it’s good for the species.

There will never be some global Lysistrata where men organize in solidarity, promising not to fuck another woman until they comply with demands that would place the Masculine Imperative above that of the feminine’s. Our own biology guarantees it.

Personal Responsibility

On a final note here, whenever I delve into the ethical implications of Red Pill awareness I invariably run into the personal responsibility equation. I do my best to make as coldly rational an observation of dynamics I see and allow my readers to make their own judgements. However, those observation are never intended to excuse the behaviors men and women find themselves prone to acting out.

There is always a want on the part of either sex to see their concept of justice enacted on those who would act against it. Thus you get honor killing in the Muslim world, and you have men’s access to the DNA testing of children they suspect aren’t their own denied in the “best interest of the child.”

So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?

 

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

722 comments on “Our Sisters’ Keeper

  1. She uses the orgazm scheme as a leverage.

    I’ll take your words for it. I only brought it up because in my case it seemed like a completely involuntary almost panicky response.

  2. I hate you for the sacrifices you made for me
    I hate you for every time you ever bled for me
    I hate you for the way you smile when you look at me
    I hate you for never taking control of me

    I hate you for always saving me from myself
    I hate you for always choosing me and not someone else
    I hate you for always pulling me back from the edge
    I hate you for every kind word you ever said
    I’ll bleed you dry now

    Blood, blood, blood
    Pump mud through my veins
    Shut your dirty, dirty mouth
    I’m not that easy

    Blood, blood, blood
    Pump mud through my veins
    I’m a dirty, dirty girl
    I want it filthy

    I love you for everything you ever took from me
    I love the way you dominate and you violate me
    I love you for every time you gave up on me
    I love you for the way you look when you lie to me
    I love you for never believing in what I say
    I love you for never once giving me my way
    I love you for never delivering me from pain
    I love you for always driving me insane
    I’ll bleed you dry now

    Blood, blood, blood
    Pump mud through my veins
    Shut your dirty, dirty mouth
    I’m not that easy

    Blood, blood, blood
    Pump mud through my veins
    I’m a dirty, dirty girl
    I want it filthy

    I hate you for every time you ever bled for me

    Kind of puts this post into perspective don’t you think? Maybe we are our sisters’ keepers,…we just don’t want to confront what’s necessary to keep them.

  3. Not sure if I should take that as an insult or a compliment.

    Either way, I grow more cynical by the minute.

  4. SFC Ton: ” . . .the proper place of women (and kids and what are women but the oldest teenager in the house?) is as property. ”

    Rollo: “Maybe we are our sisters’ keepers,…we just don’t want to confront what’s necessary to keep them.”

    There ya go. That’s why I keep hammering away at pointing out the critical role of the Tender Years Doctrine.

    And what is necessary to keep them? Force.

    And what has the FI taught that a man should never, ever do, even in self defence?

    Now, let’s not always see the same hands.

    Footnote: Even RazorBladeKandy, who might well be the epitome of the egalitarian minded MGTOW, has criticised the MRM for refusing to face these facts.

  5. @Rollo

    “Maybe we are our sisters’ keepers,…we just don’t want to confront what’s necessary to keep them.”

    Alpha (Game) is the only manner which garners women’s attention and respect in the SMV.

    Perhaps only Alpha males are qualified to take on the burden. At least for now in todays climate.

    So, if you take on that responsibility. . . Alpha up.

    Let’s face it even in other spheres like business, sports, movies/entertainment and politics, Alpha rules. . . . . It’s like we never left the Serengeti.

    Great lyrics. . . I’m gonna save em.

  6. …we just don’t want to confront what’s necessary to keep them.

    We wonder why Islam is the fastest growing religion.

  7. “. . . It’s like we never left the Serengeti.”

    There ya go. You can take the man out of the Serengeti, but the moment you take the Serengeti out of the man, he ceases to be a man.

    And beyond the Serengeti there is still the world, and then the universe. The problem with hating the game is that game runs by the rules of natural law. To hate the game is to hate reality. That way lies madness.

    Embrace the game. Learn the rules. Play it well.

  8. scribblerg
    July 16th, 2015 at 11:53 am
    “Sadly, the other thing about last night was that I mostly got IOIs from the 40+ and fatties(getting older has consequences). There were only two hotties in the joint who met my standards but they were both with boyfriends AND orbiters, lol.”

    That’s what I was talking about. There are those where you think “could I get drunk enough to fuck her?”, which will easily be crazy for you. And there are those you call “hotties” which you’d like to fuck, but aren’t interested in you.

    Now you could of course say, that’s the difference of SMV at work. But I don’t think so, because other hindrances for you wanting to fuck her (can be anything from I don’t fuck married women to I don’t fuck women wearing the color blue; of course “she doesn’t want” me is verboten) could do too. Put the thought of fucking her on the table, but withdraw it because you are “better” than that.
    If your hindrance is something she could change, she will, which is a great way of manipulation.
    If you want her to make the move or escalate, become afraid of her doing so. Her solipsism will make her believe you want but are too afraid to do so (without her losing attraction from it!).

    Female Solipsism, women being trapped in emotions, is nothing to be afraid off. It’s something which can be understood in great detail to exploit it. That’s what game does in my opinion.

    I think of female love not so much as being opportunistic, but a tool to get something (while for men most things are tools to get that love), be it attention, sex, commitment or provisioning (probably in that order). Key is understanding love & sex will stop once she got what she wanted and nothing new to want in sight. It is smart and hypergamous only by accident. For the most part it’s a simple instinct that can be very stupid and can also be easily exploited because of the stupidity.

    @softek: I never read The Game. But that theory seems valid.

  9. Rollo,

    I pose the hypothesis that all it takes to keep them (in line) is decent provisioning, a functioning personality, and one or two good open handed slaps that imply the possibility of much worse.

  10. When I read “sperm is cheap” and “pussy is cheap”, or “beta attention is cheap”, well… I have to try and see the whole picture to make sense of the reality of those statements.

    Indeed, sperm IS cheap, as is beta attention, sluts, eggs, retards, fatties, and a whole host of garbage people: there is an over-abundance of people, period.

    Overpopulation is the fault of women.

    Fact.
    Truth.
    An axiom.

    Feminists love to tell men that only women can have babies. Well, good job. Now, shut up and eat your cake.

    If supply and demand were considered in this “sisters’ keeper” context, then, “people” are cheap, as there are simply too damn many of them/us. If I were to “keep” my “sisters”, in this age, I’d have a sickness akin to a “hoarder”, as I would be “keeping too much garbage” that should have otherwise been discarded as trash.

    Octomom? She should be tried for crimes against humanity by the Hague, not celebrated. Single mommies having babies by more than one father? Same.

    “Enjoy the decline” requires a “blank-out” that I just can’t bring myself to accomplish. And, I think it’s a choice to be “deliberately delusional”, as I can’t simply un-see what I’ve seen. Women, on the other hand, are full-on rockin’ the decline.

    Well, duh. Women “blank-out” anything they don’t want or like, fact or not.
    The future? The future is scary.
    Blank out.

    “I’ll just open my legs now, because tomorrow… [blank-out].”

  11. @Andy

    There definitely is a chasm between Islam and the West. I think you put your finger on it, ‘Women’ or Women’s rights are the central issue. IMO

    Let’s face women are the story of history of the last 100 years. . .

    Fuck the Arabs and their ‘dark age’ view of humanity. . . You can have it.

    I also lament tradition. . . .but you need to be a realist. . . Become hard, wear it like a badge of honor. . . .

    Right now I have more action than I can handle. . .

    To me GAME is about controlling the variables:

    WORK OUT!!!! Get in shape. Even if your not Brad Pitt, your still better looking that the fatter version of you.

    PLAY SPORTS with your bros. Golf, road bike.

    HAVE A LOOK. Working knowledge of fashion. Perhaps emulate a celeb with similar features.

    OTHER INTEREST – Design/Architecture. Develop property outside my job. It’s great when you have a hobby that can make you a few bucks.

    HAVE JOB.

    LIVE IN A COOL NEIGHBORHOOD. I can walk to trendy bars. Always tip your bartenders well for they will remember you when it’s busy and you’ll get your drinks. . . this goes far with the ladies. . .

    HAVE A PERSONALITY . . . channel your inner comedian. Take from others. Emulate behavior. . . . a few anecdotes and jokes . . draw from your experiences. Try to be funny and when your not admit self deprecate move on and keep it flowing. Lines from movies are a great resource.

    Use the internet – granted this is a tougher road to hoe – but if you magnetize your profile. It can be a feeder to meet the girlies.

    Have ‘Girl’ friends as wing babe – One way is to fuck a lower value girl and keep her as a bud. . . . This is tricky too. . . You can hurt some feelings. . . .

    I’m 50, I think there are some inherent advantages to that, but also dis-advantages. Besides its always contextual. . . . . Some hot babes beta is some other’s Alpha. . .

    If you don’t suffer from Oneitis, you get that. You can never lock down a hot babe anyway. . . So why bother.

    Like Rollo says – Positive masculinity!

  12. @ Rollo

    Nice one. That says it all. I think it’s true about being our ‘sisters’ keepers’ — the name of the ‘keeping’ game is just different than what most of us have thought.

    FWIW, the first girl I ever hooked up with, and who still contacts me regularly, was afraid of me. She told me later that while I was driving her back to my house, and we went past the graveyard, she started panicking because she thought I was going to murder her there and dump her body somewhere.

    When I got pissed, she would know it. I was kind of surprised when she told me about that, although I didn’t let on that I was kind of surprised.

  13. Alright, if the ladies expect us to keep them in check, here’s their first lesson:

  14. …I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.

    When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?

    We are two different species. It’s easily conceivable that the systems of justice and the laws enshrined from the classical liberals on till now seem foreign to a female mind. I would imagine that significant chunks of hypergamy just don’t work with traditional justice systems (cultural, legal, etc..)

    However when I consider the state that hypergamy would have us in, I think hypergamy has a ways to go until it can be unrestrained and be actively constructive to society.

    Hypergamy would have us in a situation where significantly large portions of the male population get absolutely no access to sex. If you’re a male, and you’re honest, you know that access to sex is both as necessary as breathing and can be as personally motivational over your lifetime as a daily breath of fresh air. Hypergamy would destroy that for large chunks of the population. This literally means we would still be living in caves. Do you think Einstein would have been the same person if he had been shut out of the sexual marketplace? Hell-fucking-no. The man was a player, most geniuses get tons of sex (very contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe). It is the socially awkward males, the ones who are (frankly) suffering from childhood trauma, or poor socialization from their mother who you see depicted in Hollywood.

    Hypergamy would destroy the very force it lusts after, male passion, all in the name of controlling male passion.

  15. The best approach is to have absolutely no delusions, no fantasy, no hope of any reciprocation from women. You will gain respect and freedom by having no respect. Give respect sparingly and only after very careful consideration. Consider this. No woman is worthy of your respect. Respect yourself and expect her to also respect you. If she doesn’t, she is not worth your time. The best approach is fuck and dump. Women are to be fucked not worshiped.

  16. “PLAY SPORTS . . . road bike.”

    Just back in from 24 miles of zone 2 on about as nice a day as can be expected in mid July. I’ll do another 16 in the evening before dinner.

    ” Respect yourself and expect her to also respect you.”

    Especially your mother. There are no exceptions. AWALT.

    “The best approach is fuck and dump.”

    But only if you get to be king. Wear eye protection.

  17. @Sun,

    That was an entertaining vid.

    Funny thing about women and their ” requirements ” that I’ve noticed.

    The women in my life, aged 18-30, all speak of their ” requirements ‘ ( I constantly have a house filled to the brim with females. Sister-in-laws, Goddaughters, Daughter’s friends… I frequently get estrogen poisoning ) but once again, you must watch what they do and not what they say.

    the consensus usually goes thusly : Man must be 6ft tall or taller. Man must have a ” nice body ” meaning not to muscular but ” toned “. Man must dress nicely – but this description varies by age as to what defines ” nicely dressed “. Man must drive nice car. Man must be well groomed at all times. Man must be good in bed. Man must be loyal. Man should have ” a ” job….after 25 salary becomes important. Man must like kids and be a good father. About half say a man has to help with housework, even though half of them never do any significant ” housework “.

    The majority of the gals in my life could stand to lose 10-20 pounds easily. A couple have made questionable hair coloring decisions. One has made some awful tattoo choices. Out of 12 women, all have basically the same requirements as though they are following a script. 3 are married. 2 are definite 9 or 10’s. 4 are hard 7-8’s. The rest are 4-5’s.

    2 women married men that fit the ” requirements ‘. Interestingly both hubbies appear to have mastered Dread Game.

    The rest have men that are all over the map. A few jobless dudes, 1 handsome but painfully skinny guy, A couple of serial cheaters, 1 huge, fat, sloppy guy with manboobs, a bunch of guys struggling with the economic conditions : low wage earners.

    maybe 2 chicks are manless. They are holding out for their requirements. Both are overweight. Both frequent clubs in an attempt to get picked up. One appears to have strong closeted lesbian tendencies.

    The bulk of the unmarried broads bring positively nothing to the relationship table at all.

    Surprisingly, the married chicks cook, clean, keep themselves up fairly well and take direction from their husbands.

    Fuck what they say.

  18. @LH – I pretty much have no idea what you are going on and on about. I’m 53 and some young hotties are still interested in me. In part that’s because I’ve been fucking young hotties my whole life – before the red pill. I don’t engage in all the gnashing of teeth about this that you do. Also the bar we went to had plenty of hotties last time I was there. I have purposely situated myself near a town that has 4 colleges but is surrounded by rural countryside where most young guys are fucking retarded losers and the older guys are missing teeth and have no job. My town is a sea of hotties. Sure there are fatties but there are plenty of hotties.

    my game is tight and no I never act like I’m afraid a women is going to fuck me and I’m sure that doesn’t work. on the three occasions that I’ve let fat chicks suck my dick I didn’t ask, they just drop to their knees when an alpha pays attention them. I did fuck a slightly chubby one in a men’s room of a bar once, mostly out of sympathy cuz she was really a nice person and I was blitzkrieg drunk. my line? Let’s go fuck in then men’s room. I later found out she had an n of two including me, lol. she was a good girl but the second she got a whiff of alpha dick she was ready to fuck in the men’s room of a bar cuz she knew I wasn’t going to take her home and that this was likely her only chance w me.

    she was in my office and a few people thought I shouldn’t have done that but I never paid attention to the ankle biting cunty men who whine about not getting laid or how alpha assholes treat women like shit. it never affected my social standing there or my professional status. you see, people know alphas are gonna fuck. I also think that it was obvious that she had gotten the better end of the deal so I would just kind of frown when my behavior was brought up. but the real truth is that since I didn’t give a fuck, nobody was able to get a rise out of me or shame me. it just didn’t stick.

    My sense of you based on your commentary here is that you would benefit from focusing on self improvement and internal game versus reverse psychologizing the solipsistic hamster and analyzing shit until your head explodes. The higher value u r the easier and more natural this all is and once you have fucked a few hb nines you will feel you are worthy of that. in fact you won’t be thinking about whether u r good enough at all, instead you will be evaluating whether she is interested and then will try and turn that into arousal. all this other horseshit you are spewing won’t even cross your mind. if you want to see less fatties go places where hot girls are. yoga, the gym, the beach, skiing, hiking, or a college town or whatever. Focus on finding hotties instead of griping about demographics.

    I also think that women these days are more affected by confidence than ever because so many men are just hopeless whining pussies who can’t take a little rejection or difficulty. I just told a twenty one year old plate of mine that I fucked once like ten weeks ago to lose my number. She was stranded in Erie pa w some girlfriends on her way back home from a road trip and needed gas money and called me after she had tried mom and her bf and friends w no luck. I told her we didn’t have the kind or relationship where she could ask me for money like that and pressed her on why her bf couldn’t help her out. she managed to get home and when she texted me I to,d her she should upgrade boyfriends cuz any guy who was twenty eight with a full time job who couldn’t come up with sixty bux was beneath her. FYI she is a hard eight with these d cups that stare up at the moon. she got pissed at me for saying this and I told her to,lose my number. next. no problem. not a second thought and no whining about how fucked up she is or what a slut she is, I’m done. She isn’t serving me or my needs so I am out. no drama no wondering why, or lamenting how women behave . I don’t get any sense you have this kind of mental toughness based on your comments or that you are your own mental point origin. I could be wrong cuz I don’t know you but I also am not here for the whinathon. I’m here to restore and support my own positive masculinity and to focus on self improvement and social intelligence. just sayin…

  19. There is a lot of complaining, regret, resentment and anger here. I don’t think that is bad as many assume. Mans regret, resentment and anger is considered by default to be unjustified and just another negative masculine trait. We are automatically accused of being immature, etc. Yet there is justifiable reason for this anger. We did not dream up these negative destructive conditions. We were born into a social construct that imposes this frustrating, bewildering condition upon us. I am enraged. I would like to dig up my dead mother bring her back to life, cut out her genitals, ram them in her mouth, slice her open, tie her up with her intestines and burn her alive for what she did to my brother and I.

    How does a man get over the anger ?

  20. And what has the FI taught that a man should never, ever do, even in self defence?

    Raise your hand if any woman has ever called the cops on you.

    Lololzlolzlolz

  21. “Raise your hand if any woman has ever called the cops on you.”

    That gets back to what I said earlier about “real” MGTOW. Their issue isn’t with pussy, it’s with White Knights.

    “Time.”

    But a heavy bag or makiwara can help speed it up.

  22. @scribblerg

    “you would benefit from focusing on self improvement and internal game versus reverse psychologizing the solipsistic hamster and analyzing shit until your head explodes.”

    To many dudes suffer from Analysis Paralysis. . . creative destruction . . . fail quickly, learn and move on. . . .

    @kfg

    Sounds like a good ride. . . Find a route with some hills or inclines, give you intervals and bring you up to zone 5 and help max your VO2.

    I got a 26 miler in my hood with plenty of high grade inclines. . . .

    Or when I go up north of town with my bud who trains for triathlons we do a 46 mile loop with some hills a couple of high grade inclines. One’s a real gut buster, I puked the first time I did it. Then theres the false flat the last ten. . . . thats when my friend and his tri-bike (slightly different gear ratio) drops the hammer and dust me, he’s just under 6’2″ – 218. . . thats the thanks I get for dragging him up the hills. . . . Fucker!! lol

    @theadgamer, NTBD

    I refuse to answer the question . . Lol

    Anger is normal. . . I had a professor that once told me that “Men are like rocks in the river. . . early on they are jagged and coarse but over time they become smooth and more well rounded.”

  23. @Not Born This Morning

    How does a man get over the anger ?

    For me, reading here created a “Jesus” moment where I realized… that I could forgive women, for they know not what they do.

    They really don’t. They think they do, they think their behavior is empathetic and appropriate. But they’re really clueless about men, terribly terribly clueless. Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier.

  24. @Jeremy

    Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier.

    ^This

    To get rid of the rest of the anger? Stop thinking you can teach them. Ever. Women are only available as-is. They will never improve and may well get worse. Caveat emptor.

  25. “Find a route with some hills or inclines, give you intervals and bring you up to zone 5 . . .”

    My all time KOM (and a second age group, 55 to 64, KOM) of a couple of days ago took me to zone 7. I’m planning another tomorrow. Rest is important for improvement.

    One of my standard jokes is that when I leave my house I have my choice of any of the four directions: up, up, up and up. I live at the bottom of a river valley. On one side it cuts a gorge through an escarpment. It’s a category 2 climb up that, but only because it’s shorter than Alpe d’Huez. It’s actually steeper – and I ride steel fixed gear (but I’ll throw on a freewheel now and again so I can play Mike “The Bike” Hailwood on the way down). No problem finding a hill around here.

    In any case, I’m in good enough shape that I can cruise the level in zone 5 without discomfort. I’m a retired racer who didn’t let himself go to pot. Those KOM’s? Breaking my own course records.

  26. @kfg

    Damm, I’d ride with ya. . . don’t think I could keep up.

    Retired? . . Did you ride in the Tour?

    Fasted I ever went down hill was 52 mph . . Holy shnikeez. I pulled up cuz I was fraid! lol

  27. @Mr T,

    ” Being able to give women 10 orgazms means zero credit.
    She just have to lean on the laundry machine to get orgazm.
    She uses the orgazm scheme as a leverage.
    For women having an orgazm is like taking a piss.
    Giving her best orgazm or her best piss?
    Women themselves don’t understand men’s obsession in women’s piss (I mean orgazm). ”

    I have to emphatically, but respectfully disagree with you on this.

    A woman’s orgasm provided by mechanical means is as different as a man jacking off orgasm is different from orgasm through sex.

    …I’m butchering my thoughts but hang on

    When women orgasm for real, they get a nice hit of oxytocin. That oxytocin can create a momentary feeling of trust and closeness, if she isn’t mentally damaged in some way. If you are the giver of orgasms, you are the beneficiary of said effects of oxytocin release.

    The caveat is twofold though. The effects are only temporary and hypergamy can make her override her hormonal directives.

    The washing machine will remain a washing machine.

    Chicks can have differing types of orgasms, so it’s best to learn how to play off of that fact. Ever make a chick orgasm so deeply she cried? Ever ” talked ” a chick into an orgasm? Ever kissed a broad into one?

    It may be true that some women don’t put a lot of stock into a vaginal orgasm per se. But never forget that the largest sex organ is still the brain. If you manage to figure out how to make her multi orgasmic through various routes of stimulation, it will be impossible for her to use her orgasm as leverage under any circumstance.

    1. If you are the giver of orgasms, you are the beneficiary of said effects of oxytocin release.

      Incorrect, in fact quite the opposite. Oxytocin proves lack of female Empathy.
      http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/3/311.abstract

      The results showed that in women and men participants oxytocin enhanced compassion toward women, but did not affect compassion toward men.

      I should also add that this is another nail in the coffin of Athol Kay’s Beta = Oxytocin inducing behaviors.

      And also this:

      Dark Side of Oxytocin
      http://theconversation.com/why-the-love-hormone-may-be-less-rosy-and-more-rose-than-we-thought-42102

  28. Damn Rollo, there you go challenging my deeply held anecdotal beliefs. Lulz.

    Okay, I get where the *science* studies are coming from, but I’m specifically talking about relatively ” normal ” folks. The Dark Side of Oxytocin makes references to people being disposed to aggression or social ” ills ” or anxiety etc.

    The Oxfordjournals abstract is a bit more puzzling for me as it doesn’t jive with my personal experiences or observations. In an effort to stick with my version of the ” truth ” : ) I say that the study referencing intranasal administration of oxytocin may be akin to studying the effect of exogenously administered testosterone. Results may vary according to delivery system and quantity applied. Maybe.

    The reversals on the original data regarding oxy-t are surprising.

    Good looking out. I learn new shit every day.

  29. “Did you ride in the Tour?”

    I hit Europe a bit before Jock Boyer, but if you look in the history books you’ll find him credited with being the first American to break into the European pro circuit, and my name absent.

    I wouldn’t take La Bomba. At the time that was amphetamines washed down with cocaine laced brandy. I wasn’t some dumb farm kid, I knew what that shit was and what it did to you. I trained with a couple of pro teams, but was never selected to race. In their eyes I wasn’t willing to “act like a professional” and in my eyes they were acting like fools.

    Spent a couple of years trying to work the outlaw independent gig, but I’m not Bobby Riggs. I was in it for the racing, not the stunt and hustle. When I got hit by an uninsured driver while training I figured that was a good time to hang it up and concentrate on college.

    But I never stopped riding. It’s always been about the joy of cycling to me.

    GPS and Strava now allows me to get out my competitive urges on my own terms. When I was working on the DARPA net in college, one of the few things I was not able to predict was that someday I could race bicycles IRL over the net.

  30. Re:Anger – It depends on what you are angry about. In my case it was due to the loss of the dream of a traditional life and family life and all the goals and dreams and hopes and identity that came along with it. That required me to do some very deep introspection on my my identity and self image which resulted in about a year of rage which some folks on this site witnessed. Reinventing yourself at 52 is not easy but I’m on the other side of it now. I had to give up seeing myself and valuing myself as a father and husband which was excruciating but now it’s fine.

    However I think many guys on this thread are betas who can’t get laid and that open hypergamy and the entire culture rubs their faces in it, which enrages them from the outset. When they get the Red Pill it’s like they finally have had to face that it’s never going to get better. I also think many feel deep shame at their betahood and focus their rage outwardly, feeling it’s all unfair. They are right but life is never fair. Gravity isn’t fair either – the natural world isn’t fair. My reco for such guys?

    1. Read up on evolution, not just evo psych. Dawkins The Selfish Gene is a great book on this. My eyes were finally opened when I got that my biological body, my actual physical self was not an end my behavior was serving, but rather that I’m merely a carrier of my genes. Genes are in control and they don’t give a shit about whether you are angry or not. Even just the basic structure of two sexes and chromosomes, it helps give one a sense of the meta biological scene that is driving so much. The Red Queen is a great book for this too.

    2. Come up with a strategy to have sex regularly. If u can’t fuck hot women, fuck some 5s or fatties or milfs. Or use a prostitute or for the squeamish try a massage girl. Too many of you guys are blinded by thirst. Sex of any sort will help slake that a bit and also get you out of such a deprived space. You could also decide to alpha up but don’t kid yourself, attracting hotties isn’t easy and even under the best of circumstances there is lots of rejection and nonsense. But whatever your approach – even taking sex vacations somewhere, start to do something. I also think all guys can improve their chances by learning some game/pua technique. Having a sexless life with no hope of improvement will make any man angry.

    3. Work on making yourself your mental point of origin. When you become truly self loving and self focused getting so pissed of will immediately seem self destructive.

    4. Be honest with yourself. Where have you given up? Where have you let your self development slide? How realistic is your game plan for life? Do you have a gameplan? If not, make one!

    5. Build real world relationships with other likeminded positive men who you can share the journey with.

  31. @Jeremy

    “For me, reading here created a “Jesus” moment where I realized… that I could forgive women, for they know not what they do.

    They really don’t. They think they do, they think their behavior is empathetic and appropriate. But they’re really clueless about men, terribly terribly clueless. Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier”

    Thanks for the response. My life would be a lot happier without the internal rage. I have considered the possibility that they do not know the effects of what they are doing but unlike you (apparently) I cannot accept that as reality. This is perhaps due to psychological and physical abuse I suffered from my mother during childhood and my personal experiences with women. Perhaps I am too “warped” by personal experience to think “they’re really clueless about men”.

    Perhaps it makes you feel better to think women don’t know any better, it softens the blow and makes reality more palatable to you. Maybe you are attempting to be the greatest “White Knight” of all by offering the olive branch of “forgiveness” hoping to negotiate exchange for vagina nirvana. Maybe I’m too slighted and angry to see reality.

    However, I think the causes and effects are obvious, self-evident and elementary to understand and predict. Women are not as rational as men but they are typically rational enough to perform many activities well enough. They are rational enough to succeed at psychological games and manipulate men to insure inequitable access to resources and sex. Most women today live lives of leisure at man’s expense. They sure do not like being used themselves, but they will manipulate men for sexual pleasure and provisioning at man’s expense and their children’s expense without reservation. In fact they carefully plan their lives around this modus operandi. Their mothers, other women and the FI help them map it out proactively. I’ve overheard mothers giving their daughters advice about men, sex, dating, etc. My mother had numerous conversations behind closed doors with both my sisters. The doors were closed for a reason…so the males in the family would not hear. The conversations were not just about sexual things they may have been embarrassed about. They were mostly about psychological and social manipulation.

    If “they’re really clueless about men” then how would their modus operandi be so effective?

    If they do not know what they are doing, then why are they so successful at it?

    Is it just innocently accidentally coincidental that they are able to manipulate man so well?

    They are very callous. I admit hypergamy is callous and concerns itself with no man’s wellbeing and that hypergamy is “innate”. However I cannot pretend hypergamy is the only motivator of women than idealism and sexual gratification are the only motivators of men. I just cannot accept that women are that simple. If they are, then they are not much more evolved than reptiles. I believe women’s unrestrained hypergamy is consciously intentionally orchestrated and optimized by women with disregard for man and women know proactively what the consequences are.

    “Forgiveness” is no longer part of my identity because it has proven worthless and foolish. “Jesus” said, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” but with no less importance he also said, “Do not cast your pearls before swine”. Forgiveness isn’t necessary if you don’t let someone fuck you over to begin with. The social convention to “forgive and forget” was construed to provide perpetrators opportunity to injure you with less concern of your revenge. “Forgive and forget” proactively instills default guilt in the psyche of the intended victim. If you are considering doing something I “should forgive you for”, then I highly suggest not doing it for your own wellbeing!

    Since you referenced “Jesus”, know this:

    Morality is nothing more than a contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social dynamics.

  32. “If they do not know what they are doing, then why are they so successful at it?”

    The flower does not know that it has ultraviolet arrows on its petals, directing bees to go where it benefits the flower.

    The bees do not know what an arrow is, but they follow it anyway, because it benefits them and they do not know that it’s a trick the flower plays on them.

  33. Blaximus
    Two topics drives men crazy(not me)
    The first one AF/BB.
    The second, women’s orgasmos.
    The orgazm scheme was first marketed (according to me) by brothels to make beta men pay extra $50 for an orgasmic experience with a prostitute and then it was picked up by feminists who married betas to give them an incentive to buy her a nice laundry machine and might as well do the laundry and then you sure are promised a pure real moaning sound.
    Pretty simple isn’t it?.

  34. One more thing,
    Are we men supposed to be blamed for not giving women the orgazm too?
    My answer is a big no and I put the blame on them.

    Ps
    I still blame the betas for feeding Hypergamy.

  35. Oh, now I know why women love fucking beta husband on the laundry machine .
    It’s the vibration stupid!
    And you stupid beta thought it was you who were producing the orgazmos.

  36. @ Scribbler G

    “3. Work on making yourself your mental point of origin. When you become truly self loving and self focused getting so pissed of will immediately seem self destructive.

    5. Build real world relationships with other like-minded positive men who you can share the journey with.”

    Going back to Rollo’s essay on “Mental Point of Origin” I would like to point out an observation of mine.

    In relationships with girlfriend/wife/family/boss/business partner, it is valuable to have yourself as your mental point of origin. I have a different mental point of origin when it comes to my relationship with like-minded positive men who I can share my journey with. I take a different tack with these guy friends. I carve them out of the other social/personal/work relationships and try to give, not take. I will sometimes take their mental point of origin and try to have a mutually beneficial relationship. True guy friends aren’t stupid enough to steal my frame. If they try I’ll next them in two seconds.

    For example:

    James, I’m going to come to your hunting property for a day and help you fell trees in the forest for your deer habitat. You be my chainsaw cutting mentor and you don’t owe me anything in return. You don’t owe me to come out to my property and spend your limited time. I give to you. I benefit by the day in the woods, observe and enjoy it . I give him my acquaintanceship, time and effort.

    Ronald, let me come over to your place and give you some persimmon trees I have been growing in my garden for two years. They are robust from being two years older and larger. And then share a few beers. I give him my time and effort and ask for nothing in return. He’s 24 years younger than me, but in that talk over beers I benefit in his wisdom as an engineer. He taught me a few things that day.

    Daniel, lets go and enjoy bourbon, cigars and red pill as well as wildlife habit talk at the bar. I’m not going to talk over you, but share equally in talk and respect you as a mentor. I benefit by being a mentee and you enjoy your endless amount of stories you tell me as a mentor. Anytime you need to vent and shoot the shit, I’m there to hang out.

    Richard, I meet at a habitat party. We hang out so much for 4 years that the other guys mock us hanging out as buddy’s so much that they call him my girlfriend. Doesn’t bother me a bit as I care about having a friendship without asking for anything in return. He has my back, I have his.

    See where I’m going here? Guys can appreciate a man being selfless.
    Women/bosses/ business partners can’t possibly appreciate selflessness.
    Family members can occasionally but it depends on the content of their character. I next them if they can’t.

    In the past when I have discussed the Donovan traits of a man who is good at being a man (Strength, Courage, Mastery and Honor). I always include after honor in parenthesis the word (among men). Honor among men, not woman honoring men (because they can’t be self-less). In a gang of men, these traits hold true because men have the capacity to hold another man in respect and honor. Although in a feminized society men get lost in the fog and today’s society feminizes men to take advantage of other men instead of being a giver not a taker. True men (men good at being men) in a group give to their fellow man in an egalitarian fashion.

    Men can appreciate this concept. Women can’t. Women give respect opportunistically.

    Rollo’s words in “Mental Point of Origin”:

    “Your mental point of origin is really your own internalized understanding about how you yourself fit into your own understanding of Frame.

    If Frame is the dominant narrative of a relationship (not limited to just romantic relations), your mental point of origin is the import and priority to which you give to the people and/or ideas involved in that relationship. It is the first thought you have when considering any particular of a relationship, and it’s often so ingrained in us that it becomes an autonomous mental process.

    For most of us our understanding of that point of origin develops when we’re children. Kids are necessarily “selfish”, sometimes cruel and greedy because our first survival instinct is to naturally put ourselves as our mental point of origin. Only later, with parenting and learning social skills do we begin to share, cooperate, empathize and sympathize as our mental point of origin shifts to putting the concerns of others before our own.

    Young boys are generally very Alpha because of this unlearned self-importance. This is the source of the almost zen-like, mater-of-fact Alpha bearing of Corey Worthington. As I said, he’s not a ‘man’ anyone ought to aspire to, but he is an Alpha without intent or self-awareness.

    There is a ‘first thought’ balance we have to maintain in a pro-social respect in order to develop healthy relationships. The problem we run into today is one in which boys are (largely) raised to be the men who provide more than they need in order to establish a future family. That learned, conditioned, mental point of origin is almost always focused outward and onto the people he hopes will reciprocate by placing him as their own point of origin.

    Natural feminine solipsism makes this exchange a losing prospect. Women are both raised and affirmed by a vast social mechanism that not just encourages them to put themselves as their mental point of origin, but it shames and ostracizes them for placing it on someone or something other than themselves.

    By now I’m sure that much of this comes off as some encouragement towards a retaliatory selfishness or narcissism, but putting oneself as his own point of origin doesn’t have to mean being anti-social or sociopathic. It requires a conscious decision to override an internalized understanding of oneself, but by placing yourself as your mental point of origin you are better positioned to help others and judge who is worth that effort.”

  37. @kfg

    Props man. I’ve often thought yours are the best 50-word comments on the Manosphere. Always on point.

    And I love cycling, so that’s awesome to hear about.

    And the random facts on diverse topics! Even as a kid people called me ‘tidbit’ because I always had some random apropos fact or analogy, so it’s fun for me to see that done so well by someone else.

    (I don’t often write fan letters, you should be honored :P)

  38. @kfg

    “The flower does not know that it has ultraviolet arrows on its petals, directing bees to go where it benefits the flower.”

    If you want to debate or discuss anything with me or any other rational logical thinker like myself you need to first understand that analogies prove nothing. They may illustrate illusions, assumptions, and fantasies, hoped for or they may be used to support lies. But they will never convince anyone like me of anything. I was writing about human males and females not flowers and bees.

  39. @Forge the Sky

    @kfg

    “Props man. I’ve often thought yours are the best 50-word comments on the Manosphere. Always on point.

    And I love cycling, so that’s awesome to hear about……..”

    In other words….

    Oh my gosh! you’re such a cool dude!! Like really man. Can we be betas together? Oh it would soooo make me happy! We can have our very own beta bromance…

  40. @Not Born This Morning

    It sucks to hear about how your mother treated you. I don’t know details, but it sounds like it was pretty bad. And that shit gets baked into the cake, there’s no unbaking it.

    I’ve studied developmental psychology, and from what (admittedly little) we know of it, it seems that the emotions you feel in early life become the sort of ‘base state’ for you later, and other emotions are achieved and maintained only with effort. Suspicion, rage, hurt, terror….

    That’s your reality man. It’s what you come back down to when all else is equal. And I think that’s as real a perspective as one that’s more happy or more benign. Our emotions are never objectively true, but the inability to forgive, the offense felt at the suggestion that we could simply forget and let someone ‘get away with it’ –

    that’s very true to the emotions of anger, hatred, and pain.

    So I can’t really prescribe the concept of ‘forgiveness’ to you. That’s just alien, irrelevant, almost offensive. Maybe contempt would be a better way to go?

    Realize this – humans are, understood fundamentally, not a coherent single system. We are a bunch of subroutines running independently of each other, and when the interests of those subroutines conflict, we rationalize away the differences. That’s how people like your mother can do such terrible things, and be conscious of those things, and yet sleep soundly at night and tell themselves that everything the’ve done is for the best. The brain lies to itself. The female brain, probably, somewhat more than the male.

    So your mother, if I might presume to talk about her, was a bunch of subroutines. And they, rather than making an elegant whole, were a fucking mess of contradictions and internal arguments. And that’s just a shitty way to be. I can have contempt for people who remain that way. Not sure if you can. But if you can, maybe you can see why white-hot hatred isn’t something to be clung to. It’s just trying to assign order to a system that had no order. It gives more respect to a piece of chaos than it deserves. It’s like those modern art critics that roundly praised paintings that turned out to be painted by a chimp.

    But, or course, it is possible to make a good and coherent image with oil paints as well.

  41. @NBTM

    Haha, the different ways we chose to respond to each other’s comments is kinda enlightening, don’t ya think?

  42. Here is my simple conviction of why betas are the cause,
    When a woman needs money, she goes down the street looking for an ATM machine, now, she loves the ATM machine because it gives her money but she’s not IN love with the ATM machine.

  43. @NBTM

    I have considered the possibility that they do not know the effects of what they are doing but unlike you (apparently) I cannot accept that as reality. This is perhaps due to psychological and physical abuse I suffered from my mother during childhood and my personal experiences with women. Perhaps I am too “warped” by personal experience to think “they’re really clueless about men”.

    I went through the same, and yeah it warps your views, but it doesn’t prevent you from getting what he’s saying.

    Maybe you are attempting to be the greatest “White Knight” of all by offering the olive branch of “forgiveness” hoping to negotiate exchange for vagina nirvana.

    No. It’s not about forgiving the shit you’ve been put through by women in your life. I mean, in the case of parental abuse whether you’re male or female, you’re a shit bag if you do it. There’s no forgiving or excusing that one. So don’t think it’s “forgiving” your mom for abusing you. She didn’t abuse you “because hypergamy”. She abused you for the same reason my mother and father abused me: because she was a shit bag.

    But the other dumb chicks along the way? You’re not forgiving them. You’re just getting a reason why. You finally understand it, even if you don’t approve of it. For me I could never understand why women didn’t just reject me. They would add a heaping helping of insults, embarrassment, having the guys bigger than me threaten me, actual physical kicks to the balls… you name it, I’ve probably had a chick do it to me.

    Do I understand now why and how they did it? Yep. Do I forgive them? Hell no. But knowing I can keep anyone from ever doing that shit to me again, or knowing what to expect so they can’t drop a genuine surprise on me any more shuts down a raft of insecurities I had due to my past. Things become more predictable, my control of situations I’m in grows, and I start to find peace through that.

    You don’t have to forgive anyone. You just have to keep what you first said in mind:

    My life would be a lot happier without the internal rage.

    I agree. It would. I’m not quite there myself, but I can feel that I’m on the path for it.

    Lose the focus on the past pain and instead look to the present where you have the tools to handle what hurt you back then. Forgive yourself for the past. I know I blamed myself a lot for it, but I had to realize that I couldn’t know better back then. It’s likely you have some of that, too.

    This is the right place to find relief from the rage, it’s just a matter of internalizing the right attitudes and beliefs going forward.

  44. @Forge: “I don’t often write fan letters, you should be honored”

    Thank you.

    @NBTM: “I was writing about human males and females not flowers and bees.”

    I was writing about evolutionary biology, which applies to all sexually reproducing biological life, not restricted even to that on Earth.

    Aristotelian logic can be applied to the analysis of our base drives, but our base drives are not founded in Aristotelian logic. They are pragmatic, empirical. The fundamental problem in psychology is that we must use the mind to examine itself, and the mind itself is limited by the very things we are seeking to understand.

    Rick Deckard asks, “How can it not know what it is?”
    I would ask in response, “Why should it, what function would that serve?”

    And then I would point to Ray Batty and ask, “How’s that workin’ out for him?”

  45. @Rollo Tomassi

    Very interesting research on oxytocin, makes sense because the “discovery” logically fits with the behavior. Thanks for sharing it.

    @Forge the Sky

    Thanks for your response, I take it to be sincere and appreciate the sincerity. Regardless of how useful your thoughts may or may not be to me, they are sincere and that alone is productive. Your thoughts are much like @kfg; analogies and assumptions. I see how you can appreciate his thoughts, you relate to them well. No harm in that, just not the realm I prefer to indulge anymore….found it worthless.

  46. There’s a lot of great stuff in this thread! It’s great so see some of these ideas being hashed out, this topic is pretty fundamental.

    I’m mostly with Sun Wukong on this; I think that the concept of ‘blame’ towards one gender is inaccurate here, these are just the logical mass movements that happen in response to our environmental technological and fiscal circumstance, and our gender ratio.

    And I think we need a pretty rigorous definition of ‘morality’ before we start to explore whether or not women possess the equivalent ‘moral agency’ as men. But I do think it’s really interesting to consider that woman’s morality might exist, but simply be different from men’s curtesy of her differing imperatives.

    As put in the OP: “From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?

    “Much in the same way we were Blue Pill conditioned to presume that our idealistic concept of love was mutually shared by women I would propose that men’s concepts of justice, honor, and (from an intrasexual perspective) respect are dissimilar from those of women.

    “For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.”

    For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.

    Hence the rage women exhibit, the rationalizations, the breaking down of all logic, when you confront her with the probable consequences or the certain immorality of her (from a masculine perspective) duplicitous actions. To riff off my recent meltdown – you’re destabilizing the business you work for, jeopardizing your and your new lover’s career, and hurting someone you call a good friend by doing it all right in front of his eyes – so what? How dare you poke into my business? You need to just calm down. You can’t tell me what I can and can’t do! You need to just get over it! Stop being so melodramatic….

    And those are the reasons and tactics of female moral agency. It’s pretty foreign to us, but it works. Hey, she fucked him or will soon, it’s a done deal lol.

    A day ago that bothered me, and maybe I’m not out of the woods yet. But really, once you get it you stop caring in a way. Masculine morality is for men. We can have the social strength to impose it on women, or they can have the social strength (currently the case ) to impose their ‘morality’ on us. But we need to keep the separate concepts separate. Don’t expect women to ‘just get’ masculine morality in general. Just like most men don’t ‘just get’ feminine ‘morality’ (it needs a separate word I feel).

    Is feminine ‘morality’ compatible with civilization? No, not at all. Them’s the rubs. I remember talking to a chick once – very uninhibited girl, quite crazy. She was all id. She said she hated civilization’s expectations of her. She would give up all the safety, stability, technology, comfort, everything it gave her, just to be free of it. And I look back now and I think, that’s the heart of a woman. That’s what we’ll move towards so long as they rule the moral frame. When men rule the moral frame, we get civilization in all its order and splendor, and also in all its rigidity and opprobrium. Which do you prefer?

  47. @kfg – “I was writing about evolutionary biology, which applies to all sexually reproducing biological life, not restricted even to that on Earth.”

    The biology classes I took taught us that humans and bees and flowers do not have the same sexual reproductive habits, physiology, or hormones.

    Has something changed? Do you have a bee penis? WTF? All living things now share the same sexuality? We have now evolved beyond androgyny and now all sexuality among all living things in the universe is equal? To infinity and beyond! We have at last achieved ultimate sexual equality with everything! Yea! at last there are no more alphas to make any beta feel ashamed of himself.

  48. @Forge the Sky – “And I think we need a pretty rigorous definition of ‘morality’

    Morality is nothing more than a contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social dynamics

    If you think my definition is horribly cynical and nihilistic please consider those are adjectives, applied for negative effect to imply my definition is invalid or false. This is the big red pill. Please consider the reality of this with all caveats, hopes, fears, and other imaginings removed. Strip it down to the bare facts only. What other logical conclusion can one derive from the evidence?

  49. I see DeJa Vu all over again. Over and over. The latest is NBTM’s angry screed.

    I was driving home from dinner tonight and I was having a “discussion” with my wife. Barely keeping myself to the rule of “fight club–don’t talk about it” As she faked interest in my latest passions, I was recounting a round-about discussion how in certain grief/loss/frustration situations I have used the statement that “I’m not that good at Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression. I’m much better at Acceptance”. She said “That sounds canned, like you thought about it before.” (When I finished telling her about my great week and passionate accomplishments, she of course, figuratively yawned.)

    I think about it all the time in the manosphere. Deja fucking Vu.

    Get through it. Unless you can get through the grief stages, you can’t move on. Acceptance of the nature that is presented to you is necessary to improve positive masculinity. Positive masculinity is what your evolutionary hindbrain was meant to practice.

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/07/25/the-5-stages-of-unplugging/

  50. @NBTM – Profound shit, buddy, wow. I’m with you in the sense that I don’t let any sentient human being off the hook for their behavior. Everyone is accountable, but to me, “responsibility” is a different thing. I had a client who was a head shed for a bunch of cognitive scientists building agent based models to simulate behavior in many different settings and was forced to dive in and learn a bit. I think Sam Harris did a really good job of summarizing some of this in his talk on Free Will – https://youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g

    At any given moment we are at the effect of so many drivers of behavior, many of which we are not actively aware of. No person is truly rational or truly has complete freedom of action. We are creatures of our past, as ForgeTheSky points out, developmental psychology makes clear we are utterly shaped by early events in our lives as a foundation of how we see the world. Our thinking is hopelessly riddled with biases, such as a recency bias and a local bias, just to name a couple.

    I was abused horrifically by my Dad, so i’m not sure what it’s like to be abused by a mother. Mine was loving and sweet, but she died when I was 11, sigh. So my mother issues are surely different. But here’s what I do know. I internalized a self-loathing because my Dad hated me. He denigrated me and belittled me and insulted me and berated me at every turn, starting very early. Nothing was ever good enough, nothing.

    Early in life, this motivated me, but at a certain point I realized that I was driven by proving him wrong. Yet I still had an incredibly negative internal dialog and it caused me to be defensive, inappropriately aggressive and volatile. It also wears on you, year in and year out. constantly running yourself down with the internal monologue of self-hate. I was able to move beyond some aspects of the abuse with PTSD treatment for the traumas, revisualizing and exposure therapy. I also developed the ability to catch and then release negative thoughts using the Sedona Method – brilliant and very easy once you get it.

    But still, until I took the Red Pill, I never realized how much I actually hated myself. In fact, self-loathing was my Red Pill crisis. You see, once my relationship with my daughter shit the bed, I had no more “proof” externally that I was a good man.

    @SJF too – This is where being my own point of mental origin really shifted things for me. Fyi, I loved your comments on that, but I think we are seeing it differently. For me, I was so co-dependent, so “Zelig-like” (a Woody Allen movie where the character takes on the attributes of those around him) that the actual experience of stopping measuring myself by being a good dad or worker or husband or brother was life changing for me. Utterly. I can truly say I’m no longer co-dependent. Fyi, I did a 5 day inpatient co-dependency psycho-drama program that delved deeply in that aspect of my psyche. But even that couldn’t touch it for long. For a few days after I had the feeling I have now but it didn’t last. Now? I have bad moments, but the second I catch negative self-talk I just nip it in the bud. It’s nothing short of amazing for me and it’s all due to the Red Pill and you guys here. Seriously, I got me back from this place, no shit.

    So for me, starting from the viewpoint of who I am and not getting lost in other’s approval is crucial as a starting point. I even don’t let myself get down or embarrassed about reinventing myself at 53 – why not? Why can’t I have what I want and do want, solely for me? And I love myself truly now, no matter whether I perform or not, or win or not. I still am in the business of serving me. Within that frame, I think I’m a better friend than ever to men. I can be more available with them and more supportive. It doesn’t feel to me like being my own mental point of origin is incompatible with being generous of spirit. I think it also lets me just be one among many instead of having to dominate or feel apart.

    Great comment stream, just awesome.

  51. “The biology classes I took taught us that humans and bees and flowers do not have the same sexual reproductive habits, physiology, or hormones.”

    Well duh. Bees are not fish that breath air and walk on land. Nonetheless, the nature of bees and the nature of fish that breath air and walk on land derive from and follow exactly the same, basic natural laws.

    I’ve mentioned before that there are species that don’t even know that they have offspring. Fish are among them. How can they not know? They don’t have to. Simply knowing what a child is means we’ve come pretty far, for fish.

    But not so far that we need to know what we are in order to be.

  52. @447
    I think the deduction you make based on your premises, is sound, but I’m not sure that is of any benefit in today’s environment. How would it benefit any man to assume the responsibility of being his sister’s keeper when he barely has the power to defend himself? The courts, politicians, power corporations and even the military are all arrayed against masculinity.
    It’s only pragmatic to focus on the areas we actually control and slowly expand that power. Men need to look for ways to advocate for their interests prudently, taking the present political climate into consideration. That may mean assuming that women are sentient beings with agency.
    It may mean forging alliances with center-right pundits such as Dr. Helen and Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers. It may also mean framing the debate in a positive light, focusing on ways men and women can complement each other for mutual benefit.
    Women, being pragmatic, can see feminism comes with negative externalities. Even Sandgerg recognizes that women can’t have it all without (beta) male allies. In the past two years, we’ve seen an antifeminist movement emerge side by side with the ascendant manosphere. These women definitely have their own motivations for rallying against radical feminism, but they’re still natural allies for the manosphere. I propose that we form alliances and advocate for ourselves how and where we can.

    Tl;dr: Radical feminism is harming women as well and some women recognize that. Let’s form alliances and pick our battles. We can talk about being “our sister’s keeper” when we actually have some clout.

  53. RED ALERT – DANGER – EVERY MAN IN THE MANOSPHERE NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS

    A Canadian man is facing jail time for “harassing” two feminists on Twitter. The court case is going now. But here’s the shocking thing – he didn’t threaten them, he didn’t even call them names. He just disagreed with their politics vociferously and relentlessly – and they were able to get charges brought. Listen to this report – even the wildly feminist reporter updating us on this in the video can’t accept it (although she tries). This is truly terrifying for all men online. Check this vid:
    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNb7W8ZbjI0&w=560&h=315%5D

    What’s predictable but utterly disgusting is Jezebel’s cheerleading for it, and in the article they talk about him like he threatened these women – when he never did and nobody is saying he did. Here’s that article.
    http://jezebel.com/a-man-is-facing-jail-for-harassing-women-online-and-it-1497322836

    Also, just about anyone’s online anonymity can be busted via subpoena. Now this is Canada, but the same shit is making its way through our society down here. Can’t you see this site being held up as a “hate” site? I see the left increasingly using every lever of power to suppress speech they don’t like and frankly, this sent a shiver down my spine. Perhaps I should go back to an IP anonymiser but my experience with them sucked.

    It makes me seriously think about leaving the online manosphere altogether. Fucking fascists.

    And fuck yeah, I hold these vicious cunts accountable for every last drop of it. It’s not men’s fault, and they are firmly on the hook. They are relishing this shit – it’s very intentional. LIke Rollo says, “Children with Dynamite”. Be careful and perhaps afraid, The world we are entering could be quite tough on men like us.

  54. “What other logical conclusion can one derive from the evidence?”

    That, as other animals display behaviours that reflect a morality, there is an element of it that is biologically hard wired to ensure survival of the species.

  55. One last point.
    During WWII, Americans allied with Russia to fight the Nazis. In the middle east, we’re currently allied with terrorists who are fighting terrorists who we financed to fight other terrorists who we financed who…
    You get the picture.
    The nascent manosphere/men’s rights movement needs to focus on small victories and alliances instead of ideological purity. The strongest allies we can find today are pragmatic women. However, many of these women may recoil at the thought of a masculine “keeper”.
    This discussion, while thought provoking, is premature. Save it for VF day (Victory over Feminism).

  56. @scribbleg
    Use TOR. The onion router. Read about online privacy. I read the news and TOR is #1 on my list of things to do.

  57. A bit off-topic, but I do wish Rollo would re-evaluate Heartiste.

    Heartiste uses manospheric themes as a basis for his real interest, which is white nationalism. This impacts the sincerity of his manosphere related posts..

    I recently raised the point in one of his threads that his overall points seemed to be encouraging the idea that all betas and sub-betas needed to do in order to overcome their problems with women was apply sheer will. In an admittedly somewhat trollish tone, I took the firm position that all that mattered were looks and the men having issues with women were just lacking in LMS (looks, money, and status) — the thesis of the PuaHate crowd, and that this gelled with women having the upper-hand in the modern sexual marketplace.

    Heartiste banned me. Compare that to the fairly tolerant open discussion here.

    I suspect the reason he banned me is because he does not want all the low-status Dylan Roof like readers of his blog to be offended by such an argument.

    Roissy (Heartiste’s former name) and Roosh have become corrupted and confused — only Rollo remains.

  58. “But not so far that we need to know what we are in order to be”

    I think we (men and women) do know. we are aware of our mortality, we are forewarned of the consequences of our actions. We have the ability to objectively consider the consequences of our actions proactively probably more than any other creature. This is part of our ability to be so creative. We are reflective. I would agree that men are more than women. But I think women aren’t far behind and they certainly aren’t so far behind that they are unable to foresee the consequences. We live in what I have come to define as a competition – cooperation conundrum.

  59. @NBTM: “We have the ability to objectively consider the consequences of our actions proactively probably more than any other creature. ”

    Absolutely, but that does not imply limits to our objectivity, or that those limits are not actually quite extensive.

    “I think women aren’t far behind . . .”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8DNGh126oM

    @Gurney:

    I think it would be more fair to say that Heartiste does not favour the eradication of race. That he/they is just as much a Yamato nationalist as a white nationalist.

    That families should be allowed to live together.

  60. @Tom – Yeah, TOR is an IP anonymizer – I’m in the tech business and know all about it. I’ve used two different ones and had all kinds of performance and application problems, they are not great in some ways. There are actually a number of options aside from TOR.

    But still, when you comment here, you leaven an email address – you have to. That is associated with a domain. A subpoena is all it takes, and voila, the ISP who hosts that domain gives you up – and they didn’t have to track your IP at all. This is a standard legal discovery process and happens every day. You have no protection if you comment here using WordPress or just by leaving an email. None. Using Tor or not. Now if you use an offshore ISP to host the email, that may slow them down. But that’s about it.

    When you are on YouTube, Google knows everything about you via cookies – regardless of your IP. And even if you start now, they can go back in time to before you used the anonymizer. Just sayin’…

  61. @scribblerg –

    RED ALERT – DANGER – EVERY MAN IN THE MANOSPHERE NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS

    I agree this is very dangerous, not just for us but for everyone. The last time people of this nation were pushed to extreme was the mid 1800s. More people died in the American Civil War than all other wars the “United” States has fought including the American Revolution to date. Many of us have fire arms. Many homes contain more guns than family members. There is a lot of anger building up over various liberal agendas incrementally being imposed. People can take a lot of crap and will tolerate a lot until their basic rights are violated. Unrest in the lower classes has manifested itself in the form of riots in Ferguson Missouri, New York, etc. recently. That level of unrest is minor compared to the unrest that will occur if more politically and financially powerful people become threatened. If an economic implosion occurs here (which can happen due to the massive US debt bubble and other factors) tensions and frustration will skyrocket. I would not want to be gay, feminist, or liberal if that happens. They will be blamed since their agendas are being implemented just prior. This has occurred in cycles through history and it could be a blood bath.

  62. @KFG – Oh I needed a good laugh before I go to sleep, that was awesome. She’s kind of hot, and I think her time would be much better spent with her head in that dude’s lap. Yeah, women can run the world – lol, it’s just too perfect, thanks.

  63. @Gurney – Hail Warmaster of House Atreides! I loved the Dune books, and even have a weak spot for the movies, as awful as they were in some ways.

    You are spot on about Heartiste. I detected the white supremacist crap right off the bat and left. There are some white supremacists here. When I hear that crap I just think of my amazing black sister in law (a former homicide cop and secret service agent) and my amazing 6 year old half black niece and try to imagine how they’d feel reading this crap and I know I can’t tolerate it. We had an anti-semite on this thread earlier who I eviscerated.

    But it’s aside from that, I’m also quite and experienced in global capital markets, economics and politics, from a theoretical, academic perspective and I can tell you that Roosh’s ideas about politics are re-hashed Lew Rockwell anarchist goggledygook and horseshit from top to bottom, He has no idea what the fuck he’s talking about when it comes to economics and politics, his entire worldview in that regard is a bad joke. So I could never take those guys seriously. Fyi, Lew Rockwell is a racist too, so there is that.

    I’ve always questioned Rollo making common cause with those guys and referencing them and frankly it has always reduced my respect for him – sorry Rollo, but if you lay down with dogs you get fleas. Such people get no quarter anywhere in my world. They could be telling me how to turn lead into gold, and I’d just shit down their throats. They call themselves race realists, but they miss the most basic truth about humanity and race, which is this. There is greater difference in people within races than between the races. The variation within the white race is greater than the variation between the average black and the average white. In other words, they are just bigots without a fucking leg to stand on.

    But we do have at least one alpha black dude on this site who comments regularly, Blaximus – a role model to me. I’d like to see more black men here frankly. We have much more in common than we do differences and we are all in the same boat when it comes to women. I also think the matriarchy is even more advanced in the black community in general. I also think that if it’s true that men are disposable, then it’s true that black men are even more disposable and they may need the Red Pill more than most.

  64. “Yeah, women can run the world . . .”

    We’ll all be living in grass huts, and unless men build the grass huts, even the grass huts will be crap:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAWfK5LEGIg

    The thing is that I don’t even think she’s that stupid, per se, just an extreme example of thinking like a woman. She does not approach the problem with objective analysis. To her it is a personal question:

    “If I run a mile . . .”

  65. @Tom – I see, I thought the confirm email prevented that but then I thought about it and all you are doing is confirming you are following the blog, the comment posts either. Yeah, use a fake email, good catch that will work here.

  66. I just think of my amazing black sister in law (a former homicide cop and secret service agent) and my amazing 6 year old half black niece

    Their existence doesn’t disprove the reality of racial differences. They’re outliners, assuming they’re as awesome as you make them out to be.

  67. scribblerg
    July 16th, 2015 at 4:52 pm

    Of course I was using you just as an example to make my point, nothing personal. Regarding me, I’m not in the game to get laid or whatever. I’m in for insight and knowledge, to improve my understanding of me and the world.
    Other than that my goal is to have my needs fullfilled with the least possible time and effort. I’m not willing to spend more than 1 evening a week on pussy. No problem getting it and it also seems -finally- to be the way I can be happy and satisfied with the women in my life.

  68. They think they do, they think their behavior is empathetic and appropriate. But they’re really clueless about men, terribly terribly clueless. Once I could appreciate the profound ignorance of masculinity that they all share, it got a lot easier

    Which option is more comforting mentally: getting hunted down and torn apart by a pack of cunning, ruthless hyenas, or getting trampled to death by a boneheaded, clueless elephant?

  69. @Gurney Halleck

    I have always detected racial underpinnings to Roissy’s blog. . .

    However, I am hesitant to label him . . . I see it more like commentary of the consequences of post-modern, multi-cultural, progressive ideas and there socail manifestations . . . .

    With a regard to traditional Anglo-saxon cultures and Ancient Greek and Western philosophies . . . . through a dread and fatalistic lens to the ultimate demise of the ‘West’ with a sardonic humorous take.

    Perhaps I’m being naive.

    I do agree with you that TRM stands alone. . . . Rollo, IMO, is a true intellectual. . . Principled in his approach with his essays based in biological fact and Evo/psych theory. Educating his readers in metaphysics and epistemology enabling them to make there own judgments about ethics.

    As a personal note I think there are many admirable black americans. . . Frederich Douglas, MLK, Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell. . . . to name a few. . .

    Not a big fan of Barry Obummer though. . . .

    @hoellenhund2

    As far as so-called racial differences. One could argue they are government induced. . . . See Milton Friedman, The Law of Unintended Consequences and black poverty and illegitimacy rates post LBJ’s “The Great Society”.

    1. Just so we are clear – Roissy and Roosh are full blown race realists – they aren’t limiting themselves to promoting western anglo-saxon culture. I absolutely believe that the classical liberal values which we based the modern world upon are amazing – but they aren’t “white”. They are just ideas.

      Here’s the giveaway. Note that HollenCracker just breezed by the fact that invalidates his entire belief system: Intra-racial variance wrt on a wide variety of measures, including IQ, crime, and many other factors is greater than the variance of these measures between black and white. I readily agree that blacks have, on average, lower IQs – so the fuck what?

      Using this imbecilic logic, we should just turn the country over to Asians and Jews then, because they have much higher IQs than dumbass crackers like HollenDouche and great social outcomes compared to white people. Perhaps white folks should be stripped of their rights too, given that we are such fuckups comparatively?

      Funniest? These classical liberal ideas they yammer about but don’t understand are violated by their bigotry and they don’t even know it. Most of these jackwads aren’t really serious students of history or philosophy (political or moral) and don’t stand a chance in the real world.

      Here’s another insight. Charles Murray did a great book called Coming Apart in which he focused on social outcome data for the working class, only looking at white people to avoid being charged with racism. You know what he found? The white underclass is very similar to the black underclass across the board wrt social outcomes – blacks are just a bit worse off, but the difference is marginal. Racist shitheads like HellenBAllSACK, just ignore that this social outcome data was going the other direction before the ’60s. Gosh, how could black folks be doing well and improving their lot for 60 years if they were so defective?

      Yeah, so my beliefs are not based on my half black niece or black sister in law, they are based on actual social science and reality. And I can debate any one of these cracker motherfuckers into the ground, anywhere, any time. We don’t need to do so here. My rule is simple. No white supremacist crap here or I go nuclear. HellenShitForBrains can go over to Heartiste and mentally masturbate with the pseudo-intellectual man-children there all he wants, it matters not to me. But pollute this space with that crap? I’ll burn this thread down and make Insanity look like a warm, contributing commenter.

      Their choice, I’m ready to rumble.

  70. During WWII, Americans allied with Russia to fight the Nazis. In the middle east, we’re currently allied with terrorists who are fighting terrorists who we financed to fight other terrorists who we financed who…
    You get the picture.

    Do you actually believe these were good decisions?

  71. Now this is Canada, but the same shit is making its way through our society down here. Can’t you see this site being held up as a “hate” site?

    They won’t even have to go that far. What we’ll probably see is increased public pressure, mostly from women and white knights, on WordPress, Google, Twitter etc. to practice more heavy-handed censorship in order to prevent “online harassment”, i.e. to delete the account of any user if enough people complain about his “offensiveness”.

  72. Hello!

    I had promised myself to not comment anything anymore on internet,but the discussion here is so interesting that I decided to make an exemption.By the way,I read this blog since several months and in my opinion it’s the blog with the highest standard in the manosphere.

    @Cave clown,divide line

    You wrote that in history of mankind one woman reproduced for two men.It seems to much more-at least 3 or 4 men for each woman.And 8000 years
    ago even 17(!!)

    http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/17-to-1-reproductive-success

    It seems to me that hypergamy was running mad…What a unsustainable society where only some percent of men did reproduce.and in all the six different civilizations scribblerg mentioned the cfonsequence seemsd to have been the same:introduction of monogamy which seems to have lead to a civilizational leap forward.

    so that societies 800 years ago are the sort of society western countries are heading for…someone here wrote it-expect more Eliot Rodgers and
    even some new Hitlers leading to a very high body count.

    In my opinion the study above maybe is -in regard to the manosphere-the most important one,because it clearly shows not only that hypergamy is a plain fact,but also that it is unsustainable and that only societies with monogamy can create civilizations.

    Excuse my English.I can do better,but right now I don’t have much time.

    greetings
    important one

  73. As far as so-called racial differences. One could argue they are government induced. . . . See Milton Friedman, The Law of Unintended Consequences and black poverty and illegitimacy rates post LBJ’s “The Great Society”.

    No. When sub-Saharan natives were brought over to the US and integrated to the local economy as manual laborers, they were forced to adapt to the social norms of the white majority. When this policy of integration and compulsory acculturation was dismantled by LBJ in order to turn Afro-Americans into a dependent voting bloc of the Democrats, they simply reverted to the social norms they have always practiced in their homeland: matriarchy, rampant promiscuity, low paternal investment and Big Man culture.

  74. 70’sAntiHero – “As far as so-called racial differences. One could argue they are government induced…”

    I believe those differences are actually long term environmental adaptations. Whether differences are so great as to constitute a general incompatibility between different peoples is another matter altogether. The fundamental obvious difference is culture, and world view which are changeable and fluid over time.

    Back in college when I read “The Bell Curve” and was troubled by the conclusion the there was a racially inherent difference in intelligence, albeit quite small. I thought Murray and Herrnstein missed the boat by failing to address the impact of cultural incentives as prime driver of what they seeing at the ground level in terms of intelligence, and successful life outcomes.

    So when you say “government induced” you might be right in that government can, and does focus on differences which likely only serves to artificially increase the contrast. But since government is construct of man the question is what are the biases and agendas of those men? What the biases and agendas of those who run government? Much of today’s racial tension seems manufactured to serve a purpose beyond some bourgoise progressive notion of justice.

    I think sccriblerg is largely correct about the object relevance of racial differences when compared to intra-racial differences. This is especially true when one confronts the sophists in the diversity movement. What is popularly called “diversity” is a sham, and a fashion show that is ultimately about intellectual conformity. I can find a more diverse range of thought amongst a local group of random white men than I can in a group of so-called “diverse” multi-cultural/multi-racial SJWs.

  75. “one woman reproduced for 3 or 4 men” is meant that 3 or 4 times as many women reproduced in history of mankind as men-and 8000 years ago 17 times as many.In one word:harem…

  76. The notion that 17th of all men successfully used Stone Age technology to monopolize all material wealth and reproductive opportunity is laughable. What probably happened was a partial extinction with mainly male victims, a combination of prolonged bad weather, tribal wars and severe epidemics.

  77. @hoellenhund2: I’m not arguing for or against the issue at hand itself, but what does material wealth have to do with it? Capital growth and even money are not necessary for a species and animals in a gang can life with several males and females and the pack order still has it that the alpha male is the one using his dick.

  78. From the article:

    Another member of the research team, a biological anthropologist, hypothesizes that somehow, only a few men accumulated lots of wealth and power, leaving nothing for others. These men could then pass their wealth on to their sons, perpetuating this pattern of elitist reproductive success.

    It’s not possible to maintain a harem in a Stone Age society without wealth. You need some sort of armed defense force to protect yourself from the masses of men willing to compete with you to the death for sexual access, and you cannot build one without wealth.

  79. @ Tom

    Nice advice about the browser. Thanks for that. I like how after I installed it, it warned me not to maximize my browser window, because that gives sites info about your monitor size, which can be used to track you. Crazy.

    We’re in a constant war for privacy.

    @ scribblerg

    This reminds me of reading about Richard Wurmbrand’s description about when the Bolsheviks were taking over in Romania. You couldn’t say anything. One guy was getting his head shaved at a barber shop and the barber said, “Don’t worry, you’ll look good. Some of the most intelligent men in history were bald.”

    A member of the secret police overheard him saying that, and said “So you’re saying Stalin is an idiot?” And he arrested the barber and had him thrown in jail to be isolated/tortured indefinitely, just like the rest of the people that were taken away.

    I haven’t watched the video you linked to yet, but I get the idea. That’s tyrannical.

    AFAIK, if you’re accused of rape, you’re guilty until proven innocent.

    Having been sexually abused myself, and knowing one woman who was actually violently raped, all these laws about consent make me think one thing:

    It delegitimizes actual sexual abuse on top of simply being a way to further restrict male sexuality.

    Having been molested myself, the idea of someone complaining that consensual drunk sex is ‘rape’ infuriates me. Or a girl regretting a hookup with a guy and then claiming rape after the fact — get the fuck out of here.

    If you think that regretting a hookup or having been ‘unsure’ (after the fact) about having sex with some guy is ‘rape’ or ‘sexual abuse’…again, get the fuck out of here.

    scribblerg’s mentioned in the past the hypocrisy of claiming ‘PTSD’ from Twitter comments. You don’t get PTSD from Internet comments. A person with pre-existing PTSD can be set off by Internet comments, sure — but the idea that it causes it? Again, get the fuck out of here.

    At the same time, I don’t want to get so mired in fear about all this stuff that I give up on women altogether. I will say that my last hookup, on New Year’s, made me very anxious. She’d been drinking. She wasn’t obviously drunk, seemed perfectly sober, and I even asked her, and she said she was fine.

    But it was the anxiety of, “I don’t know this girl, and here we are at my friend’s place. What if we hook up, I go home, and in the morning she tells her friends there that I took advantage of her while she was drunk?”

    That wasn’t the only reason I was anxious, but it was a big one. Hooking up with ‘strange women’ was new territory for me. But both girls I hooked up with that I didn’t really know threw me off, partially because of that fear — what’s going to happen?

    Am I going to be getting a phone call or something from some authority? Have acquaintances start asking me if I raped some girl or something?

    I do tend to be overly paranoid, so it might not be good for me to obsess about this stuff.

    But still: how can you fully and freely apply PUA if there’s even a shred of fear in you about the consequences?

    There’s some real outcome dependence: not about the girl, but about what might happen to you legally.

    Again: I don’t want to obsess, but I’d feel a hell of a lot better if the law was actually fair.

    PUA is hard enough to learn and apply for anxious Betas trying to transition to Alpha as well as they can. The legal stuff is a bunch of bullshit that we should never have to worry about — it shouldn’t exist. But here we are.

    What do you do? What precautions can you take, if any? Do we just ignore the potential of legal problems and just hope we don’t get slammed with false charges and continue doing PUA? What are the options?

    At least for posting on this forum, the TOR thing is a great idea.

    “Hate site…” oh yeah, sure. People are something else. Just reminds me of reading about the Bolsheviks taking over in Romania — you can’t say anything.

    The politically correct climate in America these days seems like it’s heading in that direction. I’ve always been adamantly against censorship.

    Fortunately we do have a lot of very smart people online that are fighting to keep up with ways to maintain Internet anonymity. Might not help you with false charges IRL, but keeping your identity anonymous online is probably a good idea.

    I’d like to think I’m just being paranoid, but that anyone is even worrying about this stuff is a sign that things have already gone too far. Crossed the line in the sand a long time ago.

  80. NBTM

    “Morality is nothing more than a contrived ideal employed as a pawn in the game of human social dynamics”

    Of course morality is an abstraction. Using abstractions and analogies is not in and of itself indicative of shoddy or defective thinking. ‘Morality’ can be a useful concept in some cases, but since it has no direct empirical existence it’s difficult to be sure everyone discussing it has the same concept framed around it.

    It is therefore necessary to carefully define abstractions before debating issues involving them.

    Of course, as kfg points out, there do seem to be some biological underpinnings to some aspects of ‘moral’ behavior. But those are so imperfectly understood as yet that we can’t go making definitive statements about morality based solely on some social science observations about altruism and whatnot.

    Just because I don’t approach issues with an enraged nihilism doesn’t mean I’m a feeble-minded milquetoast who ‘can’t handle the truth maan. A sense of cheerful wonderment is no less or more useful to finding the truth than anger; what is needed is not one or the other emotion, it is a ruthless curiosity.

    I don’t think your anger is inappropriate. What is an issue is your suspicion that others who don’t share your emotional landscape are defective or deficient in understanding.

    I freely admit, though, that I don’t know what it’s like to grow up like you did. I apologize if it was presumptuous of me to think I could offer help in a circumstance I don’t have any internal experience of.

  81. That Elliot guy in the video from TO was one of theirs.
    Paid-up male feminist, had been spergily seeking to technically assist his incompetent but socially superior (cough –privileged) assassins as they wormed their way into the spotlight.

    Red-on-red, boo-hoo. He wouldn’t want or even understand the assistance or solidarity of unenlightened scum like us. Too bad. Sorry about the wife and starving kids and all, but ..

    [ I’m kind of assuming he’s definitely not the “Greg Eliot” who haunts Heatiste’s comms box lol ]

  82. @Not Born This Morning

    …but unlike you (apparently) I cannot accept that as reality. This is perhaps due to psychological and physical abuse I suffered from my mother during childhood and my personal experiences with women. Perhaps I am too “warped” by personal experience to think “they’re really clueless about men”.

    This is probably because the nature of human abuse of other humans isn’t something you’ve thought about. This is slightly OT, but watch this video and consider its implications:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX9qZVldxHU

    In that video, they are comparing two movies, “Gone With The Wind.” and “12 Years a Slave”. The difference between how the African slaves are treated in each movie is quite stark really. When I first saw it, the first reaction is that clearly GWTW is just a rosy-colored-glass lie. That’s kind of the normal reaction of anyone in the modern world. We’ve all been told that Slavery is evil (which it is), so clearly the more evil representation of it has to be more accurate.

    But it’s not. In fact, neither movie gets it right. That should become obvious when you really watch the scenes in ’12 Years’ and realize just how much energy the slave owner is expending to make life miserable for his slaves. He’s literally going entirely out of his way, taking time away from managing things to perform truly sadistic acts on his slaves. However, when you think about it you’ll realize that this behavior is counter-productive. If this man were really a manager of a plantation, then he’s destroying his business operations taking the time to do this crap. No sane plantation owner would do such things. They probably wouldn’t even hire non-slaves to do it for them, because the time and effort it takes to do it now costs him money. The cheapest way to keep slaves in line is going to be the way they go with, and that will involve things that do not take up another human beings time.

    The takeaway should be that… Humans are lazy. We follow the path of least resistance wherever possible. We, just like everything else we can see, are bound by the physical laws of the universe. So your mother was very likely not deliberately expending extra energy on attempting to make your entire life miserable. NOTE that I am not saying that she was not consciously making the choice to abuse. I am saying that she had some twisted logic that convinced her that it was worth the energy she expended to do what she did. I am guessing this should tell you that she really did not understand what she was doing. I can say this because I’m betting that you likely know that the path of least-energy-usage for her would have been a lot healthier for you.

    Human ignorance is the elephant in the room. We all pretend we’re not ignorant. We even convince ourselves that we’re far more self aware than we actually are. The reality remains that we’ve got just 3 pounds of grey matter, two eyes, two ears, two nostrils and a memory system that is full of errors and creating new errors all the time.

Speak your mind

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