Separating Values

value

Every so often I’m in the midst of considering an idea, sometimes even typing away at a draft, when the internet gods hand me the divine gift of an example of exactly the concept I’m attempting to make a bit more concrete. Today was one of those days.

59 year old Robin Korth made an effort in feigned indignation on the Huffington Post last Saturday. I can’t imagine most of my readers haven’t been made aware of it already since this story is making the rounds in the manosphere; Return of Kings and Chateau Heartiste were predictably first to the punch. Please do, at the very least, skim through these posts (they’re not long); they provide many more examples of red pill wisdom than just the points I’ll make today.

These blogs have already done an admirable job in dissecting Ms. Korth’s feminist boilerplate, male-shaming efforts so I don’t really feel the need to toss another log on that fire. Briefly though, Robin was upset that a 55 year old man she met online found her body beyond his threshold of physical arousal – in other words, she didn’t pass the boner test for him.

For all her self-induced self-perceptions of what she believed men should find attractive arousing about her, the man, Dave, was completely honest with her about his evaluation of her sexual market value. But as I’ve stated in prior threads, women say they want honesty, but they never want full disclosure.

Dave went so far as to make a counter offer, by making suggestions she might better present herself in a more sexy context for him to increase her arousal potential:

We talked for some time more, my head reeling at the content of the conversation. He spoke of special stockings and clothing that would “hide” my years. He blithely told me he loved “little black dresses” and strappy shoes. He said my hair was not long and flowing as he preferred, but that was okay because it was “cool looking.” I felt like a Barbie Doll on acid as I listened to this man. He was totally oblivious to the viciousness of his words. He had turned me into an object to be dressed and positioned to provide satisfaction for his ideas of what female sexual perfection should be.

He explained that now that I knew what was required, we could have a great time in the bedroom. I told him no. I would not hide from my own body. I would not wear outfits to make my body more “tolerable.” I would not undress in the dark or shower with the bathroom door closed. I would not diminish myself for him — or for anyone. My body is beautiful and it goes along with my mind and my heart.

I’m just going to take a moment here to point out a few notable observations.

Initially I assumed Dave was attempting to establish Frame, and maybe in a Beta way he was, but in doing so Dave is negotiating desire – his own desire, and this is equally ineffective when men do it from an advantage because eventually a man will realize he’s compromised his genuine passion and the woman will grow resentful.

Also, Dave makes the mistake of appealing to Robin’s reason – an obvious Beta tell. Like a properly conditioned Beta, Dave lays everything on the table in full disclosure. Most feminized men internalize the popular notion that women want to know and discuss the sexual things “they like” in order to pragmatically and rationally fulfill each other’s “needs.”

It’s counterintuitive for men to express what they like sexually, especially when this trope is taught to them as part of their ‘open communication’ (i.e. “the key to a great relationship”®) sensitivity training. What Robin was really upset with was less about his words and more about her hypergamous filters being tricked by a guy who ‘just doesn’t get it’ that a woman has to want to please a man.

Genuine, unnegotiated desire doesn’t work rationally or pragmatically.

If Dave had read The Gift he would know that buying for, or requesting that a woman wear lingerie is a Beta push. A woman buys and wears lingerie to please a Man for whom she has a desire to please – anything else is a form of negotiating desire.

However, Ms. Korth’s example is one of a commonly solipsistic woman who’s default presumption is that pleasing anyone but herself is self-diminishing servitude.

I can’t say as this comes as a shock – most properly conditioned women now feel that just cooking for a man is a form of submitting to, and appreciating him for, his authority (cooking has become the expectation of men to prove their worth in a fem-centric role reversal). Under the doctrine of egalitarian equalism any act of anything less than mutually autonomous independence has the potential to be turned into (the perception of) patriarchal domineering.

Conflating Values

One of the major problems women have, and more than even some red pill men have, is the conflation of sexual market value with their intrinsic personal value as a human being.

It needs to be emphasized that while personal value is influential in sexual market value, SMV is distinct from your value as a human being. I’m stressing this because, in the age Disney Princess empowerment, this conflation of the two has become a go-to social convention; and not just for women.

What Korth suffers from is presuming her personal value is her sexual market value.

It’s disruptive to her self-perceptions and ego-investments when that presumption is challenged by a man who doesn’t want to fuck her for reasons based on the intrinsic value she believes she’s entitled to by virtue of maturity and imaginings of self-sufficiency. Just as women aren’t aroused by men’s own self-concepts of virtuousness and aspirations of higher purpose, men aren’t aroused by whatever ephemeral self-perceptions a woman may have.

From the Timeline of the Professional Woman:

This is the overreach of the feminine imperative – to attempt to thwart men’s biological predispositions by convincing them what they should find attractive and arousing in women. This becomes all the more ironic when you consider that the women the imperative would have men be attracted to are masculinized versions of  women.

Feminist ‘equalism’ is always shocked that evolved human biology and its feral predispositions won’t cooperate with it, but such is the frustration with any social order or ideology which fails to account for the realities of human being’s natural states and biological imperatives. There is a conceived, higher-order expectation that, through freewill, conviction or some other learned, reasoned means, people will rise above the influence of their base nature and comply with what they believe will make for an idealized existence.

What egalitarian equalisim, struggles against is basic human instinct, nature and impulse.

Sexual Market Value vs. Personal Value

After two years since publishing it, my SMV chart continues to be a benchmark for manosphere / red pill theory and it’s extended beyond whatever humble hopes I had for it. However, it’s always been very contentious because it places a valuation on men and women according to the dictates of the sexual marketplace:

[…] however for our purposes today it is important to note that these valuations are meant to encompass an overall sexual value based on both long and short term breeding prospects, relational desirability, male provisioning capacity, female fertility, sexual desirability and availability, etc. et. al.. Your milage may vary, but suffice it to say the ten scale is meant to reflect an overall value as individuated for one sex by the other. Outliers will always be an element of any study, but the intent is to represent general averages here.

When you attempt to quantify any aspect of human ‘value’ you can expect to have your interpretations of  it to be offensive to various people on the up or down side of that estimate. There is simply no escaping personal bias and the offense that comes from having one’s self-worth attacked, or even confirmed for them.

The first criticism I’ve come to expect is usually some variation about how evaluating a person’s SMV is “dehumanizing”, people are people, and have intrinsic worth beyond just the sexual. To which I’ll emphatically agree, however, this dismissal only conveniently sidesteps the realities of the sexual marketplace.

Again, sexual market value is not personal value. Personal value, your value as a human being however one subjectively defines that, is a definite component to sexual market value, but separating the two requires an often uncomfortable amount of self-analysis. And, as in Ms. Korth’s experience here, this often results in denial of very real circumstances, as well as a necessary, ego-preserving, cognitive dissonance from that reality.

Denial of sexual market valuation is a psychological insurance against women losing their controlling, sexual agency in their hypergamous choices.

You Shouldn’t Know This Stuff!

I recently read a story on the Red Pill Reddit forum about a guy who’s girlfriend discovered my book he’d been reading. She began picking through various sections and, expectedly, got really pissed off at the chapters on SMV (the chart in particular). They both discussed the parts she’d read and she admitted she wanted to read the whole thing, but from what they talked about she confessed that there wasn’t really anything she disagreed with.

Her words were, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!”

It wasn’t that she was irritated by the sections of the book, but rather the fact that men might become aware of women’s sexual strategies as laid bare by the SMV sections and chart.

In the most visceral, biological sense, the primary value of women to men is sex. Almost a year ago I was involved in a lively blog discussion about how men sexually size up women within the space of a glance. Either a woman has sexual potential or she doesn’t. Women like to complain that this is sexual objectification, but men’s brains are literally wired to do exactly this. When we see an arousing woman it triggers the parts of our brains involved with tool manipulation – that’s a feature, not a bug, of the male sexual response.

That may seem shallow or dehumanizing, but just because sexual valuation is a prime value for women it doesn’t mean it’s their only value – in fact far from it. However, there is a distinction between the two, but there’s is a definite utility to women’s interest in maintaining their hypergamous selectivity when they conflate the two together, or deny / reject the validity of sexual market value altogether.

This is what Ms. Korth, and countless other women who share her mindset, has illustrated here. The reality is that a man, Dave, is separating her sexual market value from her estimation of her personal self-worth (inflated and exaggerated as it may be). Robin mistakenly believes her self-impression should be her sexual market value, but this simply isn’t, and never will be, the case.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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theasdgamer
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“a man is expected to see a woman’s inner beauty and want to fuck her with wanton abandon”

Women _assume_ that men are in meat market mode alla time. Ain’t necessarily so. For some of us, dancing is just dancing. Not dancing to pick up. Not dancing to get a number. Not dancing to get a bj in the head. (Pun intended.) Still, women lean in alla time. If men did that crap alla time, it’d be “Rape!”

M Simon
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Glenn July 19th, 2014 at 7:20 pm I get her in bed right away. I don’t fuck her right away. I like to go after the hard to get chicks. So I offer “naked snuggles, no sex.” You can’t believe how many are disappointed that I keep my promise. They figure once they give in the sex is inevitable. When they come back to find out “what is wrong with me” the sex is incredible. She is primed to try VERY hard. I’m not interested in chicks who succumb to my Game. I’m interested in those who actually want to… Read more »

M Simon
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As to orgasms. I have heard frequently from my ladies things like “That was my first orgasm with a man” or “Best sex I ever had”. But I don’t do it the same way you do. There is no one key. Your style works with the girls you attract. Excellent. My style works with the girls I attract. There is no universal attractant. I figure what I do attracts one out of ten. So what is the pool I have to work with? 350 million. Say 90% are married or otherwise occupied. 35 million. That is more than enough. In… Read more »

water cannon boy
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from Kate:“The key to it all from M Simon. Now, please, go forth and and dispel this notion that early sex somehow creates relationships. It ends them. It makes the man too “easy.” This is where the game of men who follow pick up advice when what they really want are relationships falls down… Is that the newer version of the protection of the classified information. Like the guy who’s girlfriend read some of rational male and agreed with it but said that “guys should not know this”? If the desire is created, and he wants to go ahead and… Read more »

M Simon
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water cannon boy July 20th, 2014 at 12:10 pm If you read this bit by Kate I think you will understand her a bit better. http://demarkate.com/index.php/14-relationship-realism/61-safety-in-alphas She does point out one very important fact. Women are looking for protectors. That is part of the appeal of the bad boy. In my case even when the first mate is giving me a shit storm of shit tests she always chimes in that I’m a good protector. Out in the wild (i.e. not at home) she trusts me to keep her out of trouble. My method is not direct. I sense trouble… Read more »

Nathan
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“There is no universal attractant.”

I do not think that statement is true. Stereotypes/heuristics exist bc of their universality.

M Simon
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M Simon
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Stereotypes exist because of their generality. Universality is not a requirement.

deti
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deti
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Maybe someone has said this already, but if it hasn’t been said, I’ll say it. Robin Korth should be reposing in the love of her husband of the past 35 years, give or take. She should be doting on children and grandchildren as the esteemed matriarch of her family. Instead, Ms. Korth is still out there acting as if she’s 25 years old. She’s still trying to navigate the sexual and dating minefields. In the end she’s trying to show everyone (but really herself) that she’s still “got it”; that she can still arouse a man sexually. It is all… Read more »

jf12
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jf12
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“Women aren’t attracted to us.” There’s something wrong with you men
vs
“Men aren’t attracted to us.” There’s something wrong with those men.

water cannon boy
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Or, if somebody bangs their head against a wall and it hurts, there’s something wrong with that guy. If I bang my head against the wall and it hurts, there’s something wrong with the wall.

George
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George
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Glen,

Piling more bullshit on top of existing bullshit does not hide the fact that you are shoveling bullshit.

jf12
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jf12
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This is off-topic, but related to ideas that women are too sexually focused on men’s faces. Actually, they aren’t.
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/07/15/0956797614539706.full.pdf+html
1.M. Bolmont, J. T. Cacioppo, S. Cacioppo. Love Is in the Gaze: An Eye-Tracking Study of Love and Sexual Desire. Psychological Science, 2014; DOI: 10.1177/0956797614539706

The same effect was found for both men and women: for photos rated as sexy, the eyes drifted to *fixate* on body parts, not the face.

Novaseeker
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Novaseeker
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“Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”.

Fairly universally true, I have found.

jacklabear
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jacklabear
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“If I bang my head against the wall and it hurts, there’s something wrong with the wall.”

Modern ‘sanitary napkins’ have self adhesive strips. That comes in handy for sticking them on the wall. Just stick a kotex on the wall wherever you might hit your head. The padding reduces head pain and injury.

jf12
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re: padding. Pro-tip for the wise: Be sure and specify unscented. Also, the Maximum XL Overnight will be fluffiest. “It’s like a pillow between my legs, and not in a good way.”

jacklabear
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jacklabear
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Used ones have the advantage of leaving a splat of blood on your head.
It’s great for getting sympathy.
Empathy, not so much. Especially not from a woman.

Glenn
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Glenn
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@ George – Context? Care to have a substantive interaction? My guess is not…

George
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@glen,

You’re fooling no one but yourself. Your comments read like some pathetic “beta” AFC half ass “alpha” masquerade. If you really had all the experiences you describe and allude to, you would have learned it by now. I don’t buy your story.

George
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George
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@deti

Great post. Korth appears to be a classic narcissist, most likely the primary cause of her divorce.

George
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George
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@M.Simon,,

I read Kate’s link that you introduced.

Blaaaa!

Celibacy NEVER guarantees a “Big Bang”. In fact it almost without exception guarantees the opposite…..more celibacy.

Alphas are NEVER orbiters. NEVER!!

M Simon
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George July 22nd, 2014 at 2:39 am She had two men in 6 years. My aim is to be one of them. As I said – I like the hard to get. Pussy for the sake of pussy is not my objective. I LIKE bonded sex. I like having a relationship. For as long as it lasts. If you like something different – fine. It is after all a land of plenty. The easiest way to get a woman is to already have one. I always tell my girls that monogamy is not guaranteed. If they can accept that they… Read more »

M Simon
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What I find interesting is that there are so many rules in the manosphere. Here is how you HAVE to do it. But there is only one rule. Don’t be needy.

As I have said previously on this thread. My first GF taught me Game. Back in ’62. Thank you Joan! Short version of her advice? Never give in to a woman’s games. Just another version of “don’t be needy.”

jf12
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Let us all pause for remembrance, that the lament of nice guys is that they feel their personal human value “Look! I’m nice! I do unto others!” should translate into sexual value. And they are roundly condemned by *women* for thinking that way: “The fact that you are a good human does not make me want to have sex with you.”

LTL
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“[T]he lament of nice guys is that they feel their personal human value…should translate into sexual value. And they are roundly condemned by *women* for thinking that way: ‘The fact that you are a good human does not make me want to have sex with you.'”

Yes, but those men–unlike women of nearly all ages and states of physical being–can’t legitimately declare themselves “hot” or “beautiful” or “deserving of love.” That there is the difference between creepily and righteously expecting sex.

George
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George
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M.Simon,

I do not fully understand exactly what you mean by “bonded”.

George
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M.Simon, I agree with your comment on “needy”. You are spot on. Kudos to Joan. However, I’ve come to understand “needy” is not the correct word. The behavior is best described as BEGGING. It literally is begging. And the begging is always employed with a scam……. “Look at me! I’m such a chivalrous-wonderful-white knight-prince charming-super hero-rescue the wench-highly moral-monogamous-good provider-grand protector” “I REALLY LOVE YOU”…. “So…..you should be creaming your panties at the mere presence of me and letting me fuck my brains out with your body (although I’m too chicken shit). Now that I’m bored of sex fantasies, masturbation… Read more »

DeNihilist
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Korath is a juvenile. I have repeated this before, but for her it sticks like flies to fly paper.

Mohammed Ali – “if at 70 (60 in her case) you are still acting, thinking and feeling like you did at 20, you have wasted your life.”

Idiot!

PS – the reason it is called growing UP, not growing older.

M Simon
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George July 22nd, 2014 at 3:22 pm “Bonded” – yeah. I just assumed… OK. I’ll see if I can explain it. Her belly is connected to your belly. In Carlos Castenada land it is called “filaments of light”. In other systems it is “the Kath”. The Hindus call it Yoga – union. In more profane language it is called the gut. So simply put – there is a gut connection. And of course the hearts are connected as well. Both parties must be in a state of surrender for it to happen. A religious experience. A transport of delight. Most… Read more »

George
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George
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Korth is a female beta to the max….

“I’m getting old???!!!”

“I have wrinkles??!!

“The sight of my withered old dying body doesn’t make your dick hard!!??!!

WHAAAA!! WHAAA!! WHAAAA! WHAAAA! Daddy doesn’t love me!!!

“OH NO!!! YOU’RE FUCKING THAT PRETTY YOUNG GIRL??”.
“HORROR OF HORRORS!!!!! WHAAAA!! WHAAA!! WHAAAA! WHAAAA! You awful deceitful, shameful, villainous, evil, shallow, weak, stupid, pathetic, male chauvinist, inconsiderate, callous, childish, pedophile!!! The entire male gender is horrible!!! Women are so much superior and I am so highly special. I am the goddess of self love.

Come on ladies lets cut their balls off!!

M Simon
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M Simon
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BTW I’m 69 and regularly have chicks (20 somethings) come on to me because they feel the energy.

George
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George
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M.Simon,

Are we from the same planet?

M Simon
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George
July 22nd, 2014 at 4:39 pm

M.Simon,

Are we from the same planet?

No.

George
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George
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M.Simon,

Ha! I didn’t think so.

DeNihilist
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M, get it totally. the 7 centers begin with the sex/gut center. Primal energy that through awareness and self knowledge may climb the ladder of consciousness.

Female energy, being more inward, receptive, can pick up on this energy far easier then male energy, looking outward.

M Simon
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DeNihilist
July 22nd, 2014 at 8:47 pm

Yes!

Jeremy
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Jeremy
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We really do need more Korth’s out there, blogging about their experiences trying to attract men at their age. It saves me the trouble of having to learn to instill dread, I can instead just leave various blog/huffpo articles up on the screen once in a while.

DeNihilist
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DeNihilist
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Jeremy, did that to my wife the other day!

She thought Korth was weird.

George
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George
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Rollo,

I’ve been reviewing your site for several weeks and want you to know how much I appreciate your efforts. Your articulation of al this is excellent! Thank you.

Was digging through old posts and came across “Too Hot”. If I were in Nelsons shoes, I would have filed a sexual harassment suit against the dentist and taken him & his wife to the fucking cleaners. That dentist is a beta wuss to the max and obviously his ugly hag wife has his miniscule tiny balls in her vice, with the preacher. That’s some shit!

jacklabear
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George,
“… I would have filed a sexual harassment suit against the dentist…”

How is filing a sexual harassment suit against the dentist going to help the bad situation for men in this feminine primary culture?

Are you some kind of white knight who wants to use the alpha proxy of the state against men? Too beta or fem to fight your own battles?

I consider women who make themselves look ‘hot’ in the workplace to be sexual harassment against me. Especially if they complain about me noticing it. It’s like the slut walks. Sluts on parade with chips on their shoulders.

Old Gringo
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As Rollo pointed out, Dave is kind of a beta- dick who has no understanding of game and how to control the frame, in dealing with women like dear old “59 going on 80” Robin. He could have done things much better, given Robin her “O” and led her into believing she still had it, showing up in slutty lingerie and stockings as if it were her idea! I know…I’ve done that. Left the old gal actually laughing about how good the sex was, even though I couldn’t bone up for such an old creature. Fingers and tongue can combine… Read more »

NMH
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It would not surprise me if Dave was trying to see if it could work with Robin simply because at 55 he may not have a lot of options around him– not so much because of any low SMV on his part but because the obesity epidemic in some parts of this country eliminates any chance of meeting a slender woman with a nice personality. If the slender younger women he was dating had difficult personalities or STD’s, maybe he was hoping someone older might work. But the worm couldnt turn, apparently.

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[…] Separating Values […]

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[…] few months ago I broke-down Robin Korth’s aging sexual denial and in response we got a glimpse into the rationalization engine (a.k.a. the Hamster) at work in […]

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[…] I don’t know) you will likely encounter women like Rinaldi and women with similar mindsets as Robin Korth. It’s important to know what you are, or will be, dealing […]

herb
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herb
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Oh Snap! I’m Dave….

It’s counterintuitive for men to express what they like sexually, especially when this trope is taught to them as part of their ‘open communication’ (i.e. “the key to a great relationship”®) sensitivity training. What Robin was really upset with was less about his words and more about her hypergamous filters being tricked by a guy who ‘just doesn’t get it’ that a woman has to want to please a man.

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[…] I covered this briefly when I explained the misconceptions of Robin Korth in Separating Values: […]

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[…] men’s adaptive strategies key on women’s self-impressions of their SMV (and often personal worth). I start with this for the last installment of this series because the intergender conditions […]

Bruce
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Bruce
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This article is more compassionate than I wrongfully assumed. As a frequent lurker on TRP for the past three years, I was expecting something more acidic and mean spirited but it wasn’t.

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[…] men’s adaptive sexual strategies key on women’s self-impressions of their SMV (and often personal worth). This then forms a cycle wherein men’s attentions for women’s inflated sense of […]

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[…] of separating desireless sex from women’s sense of personal worth. I wrote about this in Separating Values. If sex is ancillary or only an occasional bonus, it ceases to be a deal-breaking factor in […]

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[…] The default misunderstanding (actually deliberate) most equalists believe is that functional worth is personal worth. I addressed this in Separating Values: […]

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[…] to pokrótce, kiedy wyjaśniałem niewłaściwy tok myślenia Robin Korth w Separating Values (Rozdzielając […]

Testi
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Testi
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Morals don’t make boners. Agreed.

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